Speaker 1: Place your left hand on the bay and Bible and
Speaker 1: raise your right hand and repeat after me. I solemnly
Speaker 1: swear the jury trying it intended not scars and around
Speaker 1: the country. It makes no sense. If it doesn't fit,
Speaker 1: you must equit. Judge. You are the last line of
Speaker 1: reason in this casey very one of those took out
Speaker 1: all the topothis, and we're sworn to uphold the Constitution.
Speaker 1: From Tenderfoot TV in Atlanta, this is sworn. I'm your host,
Speaker 1: Philip Holloway. Here's my final thoughts on the Lake of
Speaker 1: Coney murders. First, going into this, I felt a deep
Speaker 1: sadness for the Derman's and for those who knew and
Speaker 1: loved them. Now that I've seen the case evidence, particularly
Speaker 1: the photographs, and now the I have a better understanding
Speaker 1: of the savagery of those murders. I'm angry that there's
Speaker 1: some sick bastard out there who may very well get
Speaker 1: away with this. Secondly, I empathize with Sheriff Sells. If
Speaker 1: there's anything else he could possibly do. I don't have
Speaker 1: any idea what that would be. He left literally no
Speaker 1: stone unturned. There's a lot of things that he did
Speaker 1: in this case that if it were my case, I
Speaker 1: might not have thought to do, but he had the
Speaker 1: presence of mind to do them. Some things about this
Speaker 1: investigation were purposely left out of the podcast, but let
Speaker 1: me just say this, if I ever turn up missing
Speaker 1: or murdered, he would be the person that I would
Speaker 1: want investigating my case. Thirdly, here's what I think. I
Speaker 1: know with a high degree of confidence. This was not random.
Speaker 1: This was not done by a professional. This was not
Speaker 1: done by the mob. I agree with the sheriff that Mr.
Speaker 1: Dermot's head was likely removed to hide or to destroy
Speaker 1: some type of evidence. I do believe a gun was involved,
Speaker 1: and so does the sheriff. None of the Derman's children
Speaker 1: had any role in this. You have to keep in
Speaker 1: mind that they've been cleared, they cooperated with the investigation.
Speaker 1: You have to understand that whoever did this was not
Speaker 1: familiar with the inside of the dermans residence. So, assuming
Speaker 1: that what I just said is right, and I think
Speaker 1: it is, here's what I think did happen. I believe
Speaker 1: that two or more adult locals arrived in the early
Speaker 1: morning by boat. Nobody saw any strange vehicles, but somebody
Speaker 1: did see an adult male in the Derman's yard that Saturday.
Speaker 1: There were no unaccounted for boat rentals and there were
Speaker 1: no reported boat thefts, so I do think it was
Speaker 1: locals with a boat. Whoever did this certainly had a
Speaker 1: dark personality side. It may have even been someone with
Speaker 1: a murder fantasy. I think that the person or persons
Speaker 1: responsible for these murders went to the Derman's house because
Speaker 1: they wanted to extort Mr Dermott. After all, Mr Derman
Speaker 1: was perceived at least to have access to some cash.
Speaker 1: That raises the question of how are you going to
Speaker 1: extort Mr Dermot, And that's where Mrs Derman comes in.
Speaker 1: I believe that she was going to be abducted for ransom,
Speaker 1: but that Mr Dermot tried to fight physically fight to
Speaker 1: prevent that abduction, and then the whole plan fell apart.
Speaker 1: That would account for Mr Dermant's apparent defensive wound to
Speaker 1: his hand. Remember, she was killed with a blunt object,
Speaker 1: a hammer or something similar to it, and I think
Speaker 1: he was shot. He may have also been beaten, but
Speaker 1: I do think he was shot. And then while the
Speaker 1: body of Mrs Derman was being bound and weighted down
Speaker 1: and sunk to the bottom of the lake. I think
Speaker 1: someone or some one's remained behind at the home to
Speaker 1: decapitate Mr Dermant's body, and then after Mrs Derman was
Speaker 1: to bosed of in the lake, whoever was in that
Speaker 1: boat returned to the Derman residence, and then everyone, along
Speaker 1: with Mr Derman's head, left by boat. Given the evidence
Speaker 1: that I've seen with my own eyes and based on
Speaker 1: my discussions with the sheriff and others, that's the most
Speaker 1: plausible explanation I can think of. And here's the worst
Speaker 1: of it. If I'm right, there's a killer or killers
Speaker 1: on the loose right now who live on or near
Speaker 1: Lake Okoni. And unless somebody who knows something makes that
Speaker 1: one phone call, they may very well get away with it,
Speaker 1: or even worse, they may do it again. So before
Speaker 1: Sworn moves on to other issues in other cases, I
Speaker 1: wanted to look into one other question that's been on
Speaker 1: my mind, and that question is what kind of person
Speaker 1: would do something like this? What sort of twisted psychology
Speaker 1: might be involved here? Those of you who listen to
Speaker 1: our sister podcast Up and Vanished, you're no doubt familiar
Speaker 1: with Dr Maurice Godwin. I reached out to Maurice to
Speaker 1: talk to him about this very question. I mean, the
Speaker 1: crime itself is very unusual. You know, after reading everything
Speaker 1: that I've could, I think that one of the main
Speaker 1: motives behind this was retribution. I mean, anytime that you're
Speaker 1: in business and making that kind of money, there's always
Speaker 1: a chance that you've crossed someone, but you don't ever
Speaker 1: know it. It's definitely somebody with a criminal history. You
Speaker 1: are likely find them in the burglary files. There's no
Speaker 1: doubt about that. Likely that the motive was a retribution.
Speaker 1: And I do not believe that the head was taken
Speaker 1: for shock value. I don't believe that the head was
Speaker 1: taken for a trophy or anything like that. It was
Speaker 1: personal and the head was taken to show that they
Speaker 1: meant business there. And I think it was the ultimate revenge,
Speaker 1: the ultimate retribution, and I think that that that's exactly
Speaker 1: what it was. This is what I call a cognitive
Speaker 1: object individual. Their cognitive awareness during the crime that anything
Speaker 1: but leaving evidence that are very forensically aware. But the
Speaker 1: object part is how they see the victim. Rather than
Speaker 1: seeing a victim as a vehicle, the vendor age, rage
Speaker 1: and anger on, they saw the victim as an object,
Speaker 1: just a lifeless things sort of like a mannequin. And
Speaker 1: so when you see something a person like that as
Speaker 1: an object, then you don't have any kind of repercussions
Speaker 1: psychological guilt or anything like that. When you do something
Speaker 1: like removing the head, they have a sociopath tendencies of
Speaker 1: no remorse, no empathy, no conscious They have no empathy.
Speaker 1: They cannot empathize that like for example, other people cry
Speaker 1: or other people hurt and have feelings. They don't have
Speaker 1: any relationship to that. But this person here solve These
Speaker 1: people there's nothing but objects, are lifeless mannequin and that's
Speaker 1: all they did. And removing the head. Doing what they
Speaker 1: did to his wife was just like going to get
Speaker 1: a hamburger. When you step into someone in one's house,
Speaker 1: and especially the house that biggest stuff, uh, and you've
Speaker 1: never really done that before, you are out to make
Speaker 1: mistake X. But if you've been in people's houses illegally,
Speaker 1: breaking enter and stuff like that, and you've done it
Speaker 1: on a regular basis and stuff you're comfortable at, like
Speaker 1: you're at home, so you're very more forensically aware. These
Speaker 1: people were very forensically aware. These are the type of
Speaker 1: people who see people as objects, objects to control, objects
Speaker 1: to treat like a lifeless thing, a mannequin. That's exactly
Speaker 1: how they saw these people here. These are the type
Speaker 1: of people that will not talk about this, So it's
Speaker 1: gonna be through investigative work that you're gonna have to
Speaker 1: link them. It's not gonna be that somebody said something
Speaker 1: to somebody else and and causing a til um. You're
Speaker 1: looking at somebody that's uh in their late thirties early forties.
Speaker 1: Based on the type of crime. It was the age
Speaker 1: of the victims, in the sophistication, the elaborate planning that
Speaker 1: they did with this. This was a drawn out They
Speaker 1: drew this out on paper, and they planned this out
Speaker 1: and they pulled it off just like a military exercise.
Speaker 1: These people did exactly what they meant to do. They
Speaker 1: were planning to cut his head off before they ever
Speaker 1: stepped foot on his property. There's no doubt about it.
Speaker 1: The age, I mean, just considering doing this to a
Speaker 1: real elderly couple, a man cut eighty eight years always stuff.
Speaker 1: This was really personal. Somebody had hate. Something went wrong
Speaker 1: in this guy's background that he didn't realize that was
Speaker 1: bad as it was this was a random thing. Somebody
Speaker 1: had a personal revenge and they sought retribution against this person.
Speaker 1: Good afternoon, Sheriff. Thanks for talking with me again. Thanks
Speaker 1: thanks for having me. We've learned a lot about the
Speaker 1: double murder of the Dermans. You know, last time we
Speaker 1: spoke and when we visited with you, we briefly covered
Speaker 1: the family members. But can you elaborate on how you
Speaker 1: eliminated family and close friends as suspects in this case. Yes,
Speaker 1: obviously we obtained cell phone records of the children. The
Speaker 1: estate of the Dermans passed only to their children, although
Speaker 1: there was one grandchild who did get a very small
Speaker 1: amount of money, but the three children inherited the estate. Obviously,
Speaker 1: we had their cell phone records, which included the tower
Speaker 1: sites that we're being hit during the time of the crime.
Speaker 1: None of those tower site for anywhere in the state
Speaker 1: of Georgia, much less near the German home. Obviously, that
Speaker 1: doesn't completely eliminate someone, but we polygraphed all three of
Speaker 1: the children, and of course they all passed the polygraphs.
Speaker 1: Nothing in the course of our investigation so far has
Speaker 1: revealed any sort of animosity or anything like that. Between
Speaker 1: There are no children and the victims. So through a
Speaker 1: combination of the totality of all of that, we eliminated them.
Speaker 1: Now you've been shared for what over twenty years now,
Speaker 1: And of course I wouldn't presume to know what you
Speaker 1: plan to do in the future. But if it just
Speaker 1: so happens that your retirement comes before that break in
Speaker 1: the case, how would that affects you personally? If it
Speaker 1: happens that you retire and there's there's never any resolution
Speaker 1: to this case. First of all, let me say I
Speaker 1: don't have any intentions of retiring anytime soon. And secondly,
Speaker 1: if I did retire, I certainly would like to if
Speaker 1: that were to happen, I would not just turn over
Speaker 1: all these boxes and files. I'd like to sit down
Speaker 1: and explain everything I knew about the case. It's the
Speaker 1: only way that you could do that and do your
Speaker 1: duty before you retire. And even if I retired, I
Speaker 1: would certainly be available and willing to help in any
Speaker 1: way you met my retirement. But let me stress again,
Speaker 1: just because I've been sure for over twenty years doesn't
Speaker 1: mean I'm ready to retire. What is the current situation
Speaker 1: of the reward that's available and what is required for
Speaker 1: someone to be eligible to receive that reward. I don't
Speaker 1: have the total. When I first solicted that reward, the
Speaker 1: FBI contributed. I have money pledged by various organizations. But
Speaker 1: when I solicited that money, I asked that they give
Speaker 1: me that money for a year. If we didn't use it,
Speaker 1: I'd give it back And and many of the people
Speaker 1: who made those contributions then asked for the money back,
Speaker 1: and that distributed back to them. I don't know what
Speaker 1: the total is right now. I presumed the FBI still
Speaker 1: have ten thousand available. I don't know how many thousands
Speaker 1: I have here, But that's for information that will lead
Speaker 1: us to an arrest of the person or persons responsible
Speaker 1: for perpetrating this crime. Since the last time we spoke
Speaker 1: about the Lake o'coni murder, Sheriff, you found yourself back
Speaker 1: in the national news with another double murder on your hands.
Speaker 1: Would you like to give our listeners from Insight into
Speaker 1: that case. Well, unfortunately, last Tuesday, you're in Putnam County
Speaker 1: and state prison bus was traveling through our county and
Speaker 1: too prisoners and the bus somehow got up into the
Speaker 1: driver's compartment and quite viciously murdered the two corrections officers
Speaker 1: and got out of the bus, carjack and individuals who
Speaker 1: was motors who were simply passing by, and then fled
Speaker 1: from the area, which quickly evolved and to the nationwide
Speaker 1: man hunt culminated a couple of last Thursday evening up
Speaker 1: and Rutherford Kenny, Tennessee near Murfreesboro. And obviously I was
Speaker 1: leading that man hunt. It was probably the biggest man
Speaker 1: hunt that drew the most attention. The desperate man hunt
Speaker 1: going nationwide. Tonight, two inmates in Georgia overpowering their guards
Speaker 1: and a prison bus, killing them using the officer's own weapons.
Speaker 1: The inmates then getting away in a stolen vehicle. They
Speaker 1: car jacked officials now warning they are armed and dangerous.
Speaker 1: This is forty three year old Donnie Row and twenty
Speaker 1: four year old Ricky debos Uh. They were on their
Speaker 1: way from one prison to another. There they are when
Speaker 1: investigators say that they busted out of the locked part
Speaker 1: of that bus. Now they overpowered two guards, stole their
Speaker 1: weapons and killed them both in front of thirty one
Speaker 1: other inmates. Georgia authorities tonight tell us that the inmates
Speaker 1: who got away after murdering two prison guards out running
Speaker 1: around with forty caliber glocks and could kill again a
Speaker 1: terrible sudden act of violence, launching a statewide manhunt for
Speaker 1: Donnie Row and Ricky Dubos. Considered armed and dangerous, there
Speaker 1: is a sixty thousand dollar reward tonight for their capture.
Speaker 1: On the run now for sixteen plus hours, put New
Speaker 1: County police are desperately searching for these two fugitives. Forty
Speaker 1: three year old Donnie Row and twenty four year old
Speaker 1: Ricky DuBose both are career criminals who are serving hard time,
Speaker 1: and police say one of them is a member of
Speaker 1: the Ghost Faced Gangsters, a white supremacist prison gang. All
Speaker 1: arms of law enforcement are now gathered here. They are
Speaker 1: doing searches. They continue even though it is dark. The
Speaker 1: worry here is to find those two convicts before they
Speaker 1: hurt anyone else. The card dating white, they are in
Speaker 1: a great ob Alperabat meantime, officers from all jurisdictions are
Speaker 1: checking out each and every reported sighting of the escape
Speaker 1: beats and telling residents be on the lookout for this
Speaker 1: green Honda Civic and these two faces. The bus ride
Speaker 1: from where they escaped early this morning was unscheduled and
Speaker 1: was moving thirty three inmates from one prison to another.
Speaker 1: Atolice say the two men broke through a locked barrier
Speaker 1: and back and attack prison transfer. Sergeant's Christopher Monica and
Speaker 1: Curtis Blue both lead behind devastated families tonight. They need
Speaker 1: to surrender before we find them. I saw two brutally
Speaker 1: murdered chrish saw. That's what I saw. I have their
Speaker 1: blood on my shoes. On June, just one day before
Speaker 1: the release of Sworn, these two convicted armed robbers allegedly
Speaker 1: shot and killed to Georgia corrections officers during a prison transport,
Speaker 1: and they happened to have done this in Putnam County.
Speaker 1: Share Sills, of course, was one of the first riding
Speaker 1: officers and let a nationwide man hunt that wound up
Speaker 1: in Tennessee following a series of carjackings, carths of breaking
Speaker 1: and entering, a home invasion, and finally ending in Tennessee
Speaker 1: following a high speed police chase where they actually shot
Speaker 1: at the deputies with guns that were stolen from the
Speaker 1: murder victims in Georgia. Sheriff Sills said that this high
Speaker 1: speed chase ended in Moore County, Tennessee seventy five miles
Speaker 1: southeast of Nashville. Just a few days later, Sheriff Sells
Speaker 1: went personally to pick them up and bring them back
Speaker 1: to Georgia, where they now face capital murder charges and
Speaker 1: are facing the death penalty. A lot of people are
Speaker 1: asking about DNA or the lack of DNA. Was there
Speaker 1: ever any DNA of any type that was collected that
Speaker 1: could not have been identified? Every piece of tangible evidence
Speaker 1: that was there or any place that we thought there
Speaker 1: would be. We submitted that to the LAMB. I won't
Speaker 1: elaborate on what results may or may not pasulting from
Speaker 1: their tests. There's a lot of people that are asking
Speaker 1: about a deceased child of the Dermans that had been
Speaker 1: murdered some years prior to this. Was that episode looked
Speaker 1: at and do you think there's any connection? Yes, obviously
Speaker 1: when we heard that they had a son who had
Speaker 1: been murdered, we obviously lioked to that immediately. Almost the
Speaker 1: dun was moved here, had been living here for fourteen years.
Speaker 1: They left the Metro Atlanta area in two thousand, shortly
Speaker 1: after their son was murdered. Their son was not a
Speaker 1: drug trafficker, He was not in any cartail. He was
Speaker 1: none of the their son unfortunately, was like so many
Speaker 1: people that I've dealt with over the years, and this
Speaker 1: one son who was a drug annic, and as many
Speaker 1: people know, they start doing anything to get their drugs.
Speaker 1: You know. This this was a typical scenario where you know,
Speaker 1: he'd stolen from his parents and did death. So eventually
Speaker 1: actually did a robbery one time up in New York
Speaker 1: and he was in and out of rehab and things
Speaker 1: like that. And on his birthday of the year two thousand,
Speaker 1: he and another individual went over and west side of Atlanta,
Speaker 1: kent over near the area they called the Bluff today,
Speaker 1: which is well known drug area in the city of Atlanta,
Speaker 1: and he had a friend went over there to buy
Speaker 1: some drugs. I highly suspected he probably was using some
Speaker 1: money that he gotten for his birthday. And unfortunately they
Speaker 1: pulled up on the street to a drug dealer over there,
Speaker 1: and that individual apparently was not settling that day that
Speaker 1: the individual was ribbing and shot both of them in
Speaker 1: their car. The nerman son died there at the scene.
Speaker 1: The other individual lived and someone was arrested, prosecuted, tried
Speaker 1: for murder and is presently in prison from the murder
Speaker 1: of the Durwan boy and aggravody assault of the other person.
Speaker 1: That person survived, of course, you know the Nermans that
Speaker 1: didn't go to the trial. We or people told us
Speaker 1: that there was getting ready to be a parole here.
Speaker 1: Absolutely untrue. People told us that the dervants had written
Speaker 1: letters to the prole board. Did not happen. There certainly
Speaker 1: seems to be no nexus between his murderer and his parents.
Speaker 1: Were We saw the guard shack at the entrance to
Speaker 1: their subdivision at the time. It did not have gates.
Speaker 1: But was it a situation inteen where if you lived
Speaker 1: there and you were expecting a guest or a visitor,
Speaker 1: that you would have to call the guard shack, call
Speaker 1: security and leave their name at the front. Yes, there
Speaker 1: wasn't a bar there as there is now, or the scanner.
Speaker 1: If you were remember of rentals or had a work
Speaker 1: per minute, in short, if you had a rental sticker
Speaker 1: for you Winshield issue to you, you were way through.
Speaker 1: If not, the procedure was that someone had to call
Speaker 1: ahead to allow you admitting. Of course, unless you were
Speaker 1: said you were going to the clubhouse for dinner or
Speaker 1: something like that and you were way through it at
Speaker 1: that time. Obviously we chet those records. Needs to say,
Speaker 1: at least at this point in time, that did not
Speaker 1: believe anything it was beneficial to us. To your knowledge,
Speaker 1: were they expecting any visitors or any contractors or anybody
Speaker 1: like that to come to their home. Not to my knowledge,
Speaker 1: but you know, contractors went in and out of there constantly.
Speaker 1: A contractor with a propriate documentation was way through. Those
Speaker 1: people who have listened to the podcast and have subsequently
Speaker 1: gone back and looked over other publicly available information, the
Speaker 1: overwhelming theory seems to be that whoever did this came
Speaker 1: and left by boat. Do you believe that to be
Speaker 1: the case. Not necessarily I don't. They certainly could have.
Speaker 1: I will say this Mrs Nerman's body because of where
Speaker 1: it was and where we were covered it over on
Speaker 1: the Green County side of the lake in an uninhabited
Speaker 1: area that was not accessible by the vehicle. That, in
Speaker 1: combination with the weights being on our body, the hydraulics
Speaker 1: of the water movement itself, all of those factors, and
Speaker 1: we consulted with Georgia Power about water flow hydraulic experts
Speaker 1: at the University of Georgia made us comfortable knowing that
Speaker 1: her body had not moved very far once it begin
Speaker 1: to ascend from the bottom. Therefore, we are confident that
Speaker 1: her body was disposed of by boat. And obviously she
Speaker 1: could have been transported, and all of this could have
Speaker 1: happened by water, but it also could have happened by
Speaker 1: ground transportation, or it could have happened by boat. What
Speaker 1: about the weather between the Saturday when you believe they
Speaker 1: were murdered and the Tuesday when they were found. Was
Speaker 1: there any weather activity that could have interfered with any
Speaker 1: forensic evidence that may be present outside the home. No,
Speaker 1: I can't remember right now. Obviously we probably have that documented,
Speaker 1: but there was nothing evident outside. It was a For instance,
Speaker 1: it was very clear from where blood was insider in
Speaker 1: regards to the decapitation procedure itself, that it the garage
Speaker 1: doors were shut at the time. That was very clear
Speaker 1: from physical evidence at the scene, but the newspapers and
Speaker 1: things like that had not been collected for a couple
Speaker 1: of days they were driving. Through my knowledge, there have
Speaker 1: been no extensive rain or anything from the time of
Speaker 1: the murder until the time we discovered Mr. Dermot's body.
Speaker 1: How do you search an entire exterior or front yard
Speaker 1: and backyard of this residence. For this particular case, we
Speaker 1: even searched beyond that. You take a hundred deputy shares
Speaker 1: and you put them an arm to arm and you
Speaker 1: walked through the woods. Sheriff, are you still making yourself
Speaker 1: available to investigate any new leads that may come up
Speaker 1: in this case? Absolutely peeled and the best example, you know,
Speaker 1: we got some information doesn't look like it's going to
Speaker 1: be anything to it last Friday, right when I was
Speaker 1: still very much in the aftermath of this most recent
Speaker 1: double murder here at this county in obviously, I stopped
Speaker 1: what I was doing and responded to that and assigned
Speaker 1: some some people to do some things based on that
Speaker 1: information that was Friday. It doesn't look like it's going
Speaker 1: to be anything to it. But I mentioned that only
Speaker 1: to assure everyone that we're still working on this case
Speaker 1: and are going to continue to work on it and
Speaker 1: continue to work on it aggressively if and as any
Speaker 1: information comes For so, if anybody has any information that
Speaker 1: they think could be helpful, what's the best way for
Speaker 1: them to get that information to you? Gota my office
Speaker 1: at seven oh six or eight f eight seven, or
Speaker 1: email me at shaff Seals at Puttingham County Sheriff dot
Speaker 1: org one or the other. There's obviously tipline on our
Speaker 1: website which is putting Them County Sheriff dot Org. And
Speaker 1: I promise you we're gonna look into it and respond
Speaker 1: to it. More than likely I will be responding to
Speaker 1: it personally. Sworn is produced by Tenderfoot TV in Atlanta.
Speaker 1: Sworn is mixed and mastered by Resonate Recordings. If you're
Speaker 1: in the market for podcast production, go to Resonate Recordings
Speaker 1: dot com to get your first episode produced for free.
Speaker 1: I'd personally like to say thank you to share Off
Speaker 1: Seals for his time, and I wish you the best
Speaker 1: of luck moving forward. I'd also like to thank you
Speaker 1: the listeners for tuning in. We're currently working on several
Speaker 1: new cases for upcoming episodes of Sworn. Each month we
Speaker 1: will bring you a new multipart mini series exposing the
Speaker 1: untold stories and the hard truths behind major cases, wrongful convictions,
Speaker 1: controversial legislation, and much much more. Stay up to date
Speaker 1: and subscribe to Sworn now on Apple Podcasts, and while
Speaker 1: you're there, please rate and review Sworn. It helps us
Speaker 1: move up in the charts and brings in new listeners.
Speaker 1: Stay tuned right here in the coming weeks for a
Speaker 1: sneak peak of what's coming next month on Sworn and
Speaker 1: don't Forget. Our sister podcast, Up and Vanished, is approaching
Speaker 1: its season one finale with only three main episodes left.
Speaker 1: Subscribe and tune in too Up and Vanished every Monday.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. Guys, See you soon, s I see't
Speaker 1: I see heep. Blood in the Water, Jarmy Johnny see
Speaker 1: Blood in the Water.