WEBVTT - Closing Statements : The Lake Oconee Murders 0:00:09.160 --> 0:00:10.920 Place your left hand on the bay and Bible and 0:00:11.160 --> 0:00:15.000 raise your right hand and repeat after me. I solemnly 0:00:15.080 --> 0:00:21.720 swear the jury trying it intended not scars and around 0:00:21.760 --> 0:00:25.799 the country. It makes no sense. If it doesn't fit, 0:00:26.040 --> 0:00:29.479 you must equit. Judge. You are the last line of 0:00:29.560 --> 0:00:33.319 reason in this casey very one of those took out 0:00:33.320 --> 0:00:37.120 all the topothis, and we're sworn to uphold the Constitution. 0:00:37.880 --> 0:00:42.920 From Tenderfoot TV in Atlanta, this is sworn. I'm your host, 0:00:43.320 --> 0:00:47.360 Philip Holloway. Here's my final thoughts on the Lake of 0:00:47.479 --> 0:00:52.040 Coney murders. First, going into this, I felt a deep 0:00:52.120 --> 0:00:55.000 sadness for the Derman's and for those who knew and 0:00:55.040 --> 0:00:58.320 loved them. Now that I've seen the case evidence, particularly 0:00:58.400 --> 0:01:01.320 the photographs, and now the I have a better understanding 0:01:01.320 --> 0:01:04.440 of the savagery of those murders. I'm angry that there's 0:01:04.520 --> 0:01:07.560 some sick bastard out there who may very well get 0:01:07.560 --> 0:01:11.759 away with this. Secondly, I empathize with Sheriff Sells. If 0:01:11.800 --> 0:01:15.000 there's anything else he could possibly do. I don't have 0:01:15.040 --> 0:01:18.080 any idea what that would be. He left literally no 0:01:18.680 --> 0:01:21.560 stone unturned. There's a lot of things that he did 0:01:21.600 --> 0:01:23.959 in this case that if it were my case, I 0:01:24.040 --> 0:01:26.240 might not have thought to do, but he had the 0:01:26.280 --> 0:01:29.360 presence of mind to do them. Some things about this 0:01:29.480 --> 0:01:33.640 investigation were purposely left out of the podcast, but let 0:01:33.640 --> 0:01:36.360 me just say this, if I ever turn up missing 0:01:36.520 --> 0:01:39.399 or murdered, he would be the person that I would 0:01:39.480 --> 0:01:43.440 want investigating my case. Thirdly, here's what I think. I 0:01:43.520 --> 0:01:48.160 know with a high degree of confidence. This was not random. 0:01:48.200 --> 0:01:51.240 This was not done by a professional. This was not 0:01:51.320 --> 0:01:54.720 done by the mob. I agree with the sheriff that Mr. 0:01:54.800 --> 0:01:58.160 Dermot's head was likely removed to hide or to destroy 0:01:58.560 --> 0:02:01.720 some type of evidence. I do believe a gun was involved, 0:02:01.920 --> 0:02:05.160 and so does the sheriff. None of the Derman's children 0:02:05.320 --> 0:02:07.880 had any role in this. You have to keep in 0:02:07.960 --> 0:02:12.120 mind that they've been cleared, they cooperated with the investigation. 0:02:12.639 --> 0:02:16.000 You have to understand that whoever did this was not 0:02:16.360 --> 0:02:21.399 familiar with the inside of the dermans residence. So, assuming 0:02:21.440 --> 0:02:23.320 that what I just said is right, and I think 0:02:23.360 --> 0:02:26.720 it is, here's what I think did happen. I believe 0:02:26.800 --> 0:02:30.720 that two or more adult locals arrived in the early 0:02:30.800 --> 0:02:34.840 morning by boat. Nobody saw any strange vehicles, but somebody 0:02:34.919 --> 0:02:38.960 did see an adult male in the Derman's yard that Saturday. 0:02:39.000 --> 0:02:43.440 There were no unaccounted for boat rentals and there were 0:02:43.600 --> 0:02:47.200 no reported boat thefts, so I do think it was 0:02:47.600 --> 0:02:51.320 locals with a boat. Whoever did this certainly had a 0:02:51.440 --> 0:02:54.400 dark personality side. It may have even been someone with 0:02:54.440 --> 0:02:57.519 a murder fantasy. I think that the person or persons 0:02:57.560 --> 0:03:01.760 responsible for these murders went to the Derman's house because 0:03:01.800 --> 0:03:05.600 they wanted to extort Mr Dermott. After all, Mr Derman 0:03:05.919 --> 0:03:10.400 was perceived at least to have access to some cash. 0:03:10.600 --> 0:03:13.080 That raises the question of how are you going to 0:03:13.160 --> 0:03:16.680 extort Mr Dermot, And that's where Mrs Derman comes in. 0:03:17.040 --> 0:03:20.919 I believe that she was going to be abducted for ransom, 0:03:20.960 --> 0:03:25.360 but that Mr Dermot tried to fight physically fight to 0:03:25.480 --> 0:03:28.560 prevent that abduction, and then the whole plan fell apart. 0:03:28.960 --> 0:03:32.280 That would account for Mr Dermant's apparent defensive wound to 0:03:32.400 --> 0:03:36.360 his hand. Remember, she was killed with a blunt object, 0:03:36.760 --> 0:03:39.640 a hammer or something similar to it, and I think 0:03:39.760 --> 0:03:42.320 he was shot. He may have also been beaten, but 0:03:42.440 --> 0:03:45.000 I do think he was shot. And then while the 0:03:45.000 --> 0:03:47.920 body of Mrs Derman was being bound and weighted down 0:03:48.520 --> 0:03:50.920 and sunk to the bottom of the lake. I think 0:03:51.240 --> 0:03:55.480 someone or some one's remained behind at the home to 0:03:55.600 --> 0:03:59.800 decapitate Mr Dermant's body, and then after Mrs Derman was 0:03:59.840 --> 0:04:02.880 to bosed of in the lake, whoever was in that 0:04:02.920 --> 0:04:06.920 boat returned to the Derman residence, and then everyone, along 0:04:07.000 --> 0:04:12.240 with Mr Derman's head, left by boat. Given the evidence 0:04:12.280 --> 0:04:15.680 that I've seen with my own eyes and based on 0:04:15.800 --> 0:04:19.839 my discussions with the sheriff and others, that's the most 0:04:19.880 --> 0:04:23.120 plausible explanation I can think of. And here's the worst 0:04:23.120 --> 0:04:26.680 of it. If I'm right, there's a killer or killers 0:04:26.720 --> 0:04:30.719 on the loose right now who live on or near 0:04:31.080 --> 0:04:35.000 Lake Okoni. And unless somebody who knows something makes that 0:04:35.080 --> 0:04:38.400 one phone call, they may very well get away with it, 0:04:38.520 --> 0:05:00.400 or even worse, they may do it again. So before 0:05:00.480 --> 0:05:04.040 Sworn moves on to other issues in other cases, I 0:05:04.080 --> 0:05:07.080 wanted to look into one other question that's been on 0:05:07.160 --> 0:05:10.240 my mind, and that question is what kind of person 0:05:10.320 --> 0:05:13.760 would do something like this? What sort of twisted psychology 0:05:13.880 --> 0:05:16.440 might be involved here? Those of you who listen to 0:05:16.440 --> 0:05:20.280 our sister podcast Up and Vanished, you're no doubt familiar 0:05:20.400 --> 0:05:23.240 with Dr Maurice Godwin. I reached out to Maurice to 0:05:23.320 --> 0:05:26.400 talk to him about this very question. I mean, the 0:05:26.480 --> 0:05:30.360 crime itself is very unusual. You know, after reading everything 0:05:30.400 --> 0:05:32.840 that I've could, I think that one of the main 0:05:32.880 --> 0:05:37.240 motives behind this was retribution. I mean, anytime that you're 0:05:37.360 --> 0:05:42.400 in business and making that kind of money, there's always 0:05:42.480 --> 0:05:47.320 a chance that you've crossed someone, but you don't ever 0:05:47.400 --> 0:05:50.919 know it. It's definitely somebody with a criminal history. You 0:05:51.000 --> 0:05:55.040 are likely find them in the burglary files. There's no 0:05:55.080 --> 0:05:58.920 doubt about that. Likely that the motive was a retribution. 0:05:59.680 --> 0:06:02.760 And I do not believe that the head was taken 0:06:03.080 --> 0:06:06.200 for shock value. I don't believe that the head was 0:06:06.240 --> 0:06:11.159 taken for a trophy or anything like that. It was 0:06:11.320 --> 0:06:16.960 personal and the head was taken to show that they 0:06:17.080 --> 0:06:21.520 meant business there. And I think it was the ultimate revenge, 0:06:21.920 --> 0:06:25.400 the ultimate retribution, and I think that that that's exactly 0:06:25.440 --> 0:06:28.400 what it was. This is what I call a cognitive 0:06:28.960 --> 0:06:36.080 object individual. Their cognitive awareness during the crime that anything 0:06:36.520 --> 0:06:40.800 but leaving evidence that are very forensically aware. But the 0:06:40.920 --> 0:06:44.960 object part is how they see the victim. Rather than 0:06:45.000 --> 0:06:48.160 seeing a victim as a vehicle, the vendor age, rage 0:06:48.160 --> 0:06:51.560 and anger on, they saw the victim as an object, 0:06:51.920 --> 0:06:56.000 just a lifeless things sort of like a mannequin. And 0:06:56.279 --> 0:06:58.920 so when you see something a person like that as 0:06:58.960 --> 0:07:03.680 an object, then you don't have any kind of repercussions 0:07:03.800 --> 0:07:08.720 psychological guilt or anything like that. When you do something 0:07:08.760 --> 0:07:13.960 like removing the head, they have a sociopath tendencies of 0:07:14.480 --> 0:07:20.000 no remorse, no empathy, no conscious They have no empathy. 0:07:20.320 --> 0:07:24.440 They cannot empathize that like for example, other people cry 0:07:24.560 --> 0:07:28.640 or other people hurt and have feelings. They don't have 0:07:28.760 --> 0:07:34.760 any relationship to that. But this person here solve These 0:07:34.800 --> 0:07:41.000 people there's nothing but objects, are lifeless mannequin and that's 0:07:41.040 --> 0:07:45.000 all they did. And removing the head. Doing what they 0:07:45.040 --> 0:07:48.120 did to his wife was just like going to get 0:07:48.160 --> 0:07:51.960 a hamburger. When you step into someone in one's house, 0:07:53.000 --> 0:07:56.680 and especially the house that biggest stuff, uh, and you've 0:07:56.720 --> 0:07:59.600 never really done that before, you are out to make 0:07:59.680 --> 0:08:03.680 mistake X. But if you've been in people's houses illegally, 0:08:03.840 --> 0:08:06.440 breaking enter and stuff like that, and you've done it 0:08:06.480 --> 0:08:10.000 on a regular basis and stuff you're comfortable at, like 0:08:10.080 --> 0:08:14.480 you're at home, so you're very more forensically aware. These 0:08:14.480 --> 0:08:19.080 people were very forensically aware. These are the type of 0:08:19.120 --> 0:08:25.280 people who see people as objects, objects to control, objects 0:08:25.320 --> 0:08:30.800 to treat like a lifeless thing, a mannequin. That's exactly 0:08:30.800 --> 0:08:34.440 how they saw these people here. These are the type 0:08:34.440 --> 0:08:40.400 of people that will not talk about this, So it's 0:08:40.400 --> 0:08:43.080 gonna be through investigative work that you're gonna have to 0:08:43.120 --> 0:08:46.319 link them. It's not gonna be that somebody said something 0:08:46.360 --> 0:08:51.000 to somebody else and and causing a til um. You're 0:08:51.000 --> 0:08:55.080 looking at somebody that's uh in their late thirties early forties. 0:08:55.200 --> 0:08:58.360 Based on the type of crime. It was the age 0:08:58.400 --> 0:09:03.120 of the victims, in the sophistication, the elaborate planning that 0:09:03.200 --> 0:09:07.560 they did with this. This was a drawn out They 0:09:07.640 --> 0:09:11.960 drew this out on paper, and they planned this out 0:09:12.320 --> 0:09:15.280 and they pulled it off just like a military exercise. 0:09:15.920 --> 0:09:19.319 These people did exactly what they meant to do. They 0:09:19.360 --> 0:09:21.800 were planning to cut his head off before they ever 0:09:21.800 --> 0:09:24.720 stepped foot on his property. There's no doubt about it. 0:09:25.280 --> 0:09:29.960 The age, I mean, just considering doing this to a 0:09:30.000 --> 0:09:35.640 real elderly couple, a man cut eighty eight years always stuff. 0:09:36.040 --> 0:09:41.160 This was really personal. Somebody had hate. Something went wrong 0:09:41.720 --> 0:09:45.760 in this guy's background that he didn't realize that was 0:09:46.240 --> 0:09:49.800 bad as it was this was a random thing. Somebody 0:09:49.920 --> 0:09:55.000 had a personal revenge and they sought retribution against this person. 0:10:08.720 --> 0:10:11.840 Good afternoon, Sheriff. Thanks for talking with me again. Thanks 0:10:11.880 --> 0:10:14.880 thanks for having me. We've learned a lot about the 0:10:14.920 --> 0:10:17.440 double murder of the Dermans. You know, last time we 0:10:17.520 --> 0:10:20.760 spoke and when we visited with you, we briefly covered 0:10:20.800 --> 0:10:24.400 the family members. But can you elaborate on how you 0:10:24.480 --> 0:10:29.160 eliminated family and close friends as suspects in this case. Yes, 0:10:29.520 --> 0:10:34.400 obviously we obtained cell phone records of the children. The 0:10:34.600 --> 0:10:39.520 estate of the Dermans passed only to their children, although 0:10:39.559 --> 0:10:43.800 there was one grandchild who did get a very small 0:10:43.840 --> 0:10:49.679 amount of money, but the three children inherited the estate. Obviously, 0:10:49.720 --> 0:10:53.280 we had their cell phone records, which included the tower 0:10:53.400 --> 0:10:58.200 sites that we're being hit during the time of the crime. 0:10:59.000 --> 0:11:01.640 None of those tower site for anywhere in the state 0:11:01.640 --> 0:11:05.720 of Georgia, much less near the German home. Obviously, that 0:11:05.760 --> 0:11:10.160 doesn't completely eliminate someone, but we polygraphed all three of 0:11:10.240 --> 0:11:14.560 the children, and of course they all passed the polygraphs. 0:11:14.920 --> 0:11:19.480 Nothing in the course of our investigation so far has 0:11:19.559 --> 0:11:22.920 revealed any sort of animosity or anything like that. Between 0:11:23.000 --> 0:11:27.440 There are no children and the victims. So through a 0:11:27.480 --> 0:11:33.000 combination of the totality of all of that, we eliminated them. 0:11:33.040 --> 0:11:35.640 Now you've been shared for what over twenty years now, 0:11:36.080 --> 0:11:39.240 And of course I wouldn't presume to know what you 0:11:39.320 --> 0:11:41.960 plan to do in the future. But if it just 0:11:42.000 --> 0:11:45.280 so happens that your retirement comes before that break in 0:11:45.320 --> 0:11:48.960 the case, how would that affects you personally? If it 0:11:49.120 --> 0:11:52.480 happens that you retire and there's there's never any resolution 0:11:52.559 --> 0:11:54.640 to this case. First of all, let me say I 0:11:54.679 --> 0:11:58.640 don't have any intentions of retiring anytime soon. And secondly, 0:11:59.000 --> 0:12:02.839 if I did retire, I certainly would like to if 0:12:02.880 --> 0:12:06.480 that were to happen, I would not just turn over 0:12:06.520 --> 0:12:09.200 all these boxes and files. I'd like to sit down 0:12:09.240 --> 0:12:12.240 and explain everything I knew about the case. It's the 0:12:12.280 --> 0:12:15.120 only way that you could do that and do your 0:12:15.200 --> 0:12:18.079 duty before you retire. And even if I retired, I 0:12:18.120 --> 0:12:21.960 would certainly be available and willing to help in any 0:12:22.000 --> 0:12:25.320 way you met my retirement. But let me stress again, 0:12:25.760 --> 0:12:29.120 just because I've been sure for over twenty years doesn't 0:12:29.120 --> 0:12:33.160 mean I'm ready to retire. What is the current situation 0:12:33.280 --> 0:12:37.240 of the reward that's available and what is required for 0:12:37.360 --> 0:12:40.600 someone to be eligible to receive that reward. I don't 0:12:40.640 --> 0:12:44.280 have the total. When I first solicted that reward, the 0:12:44.400 --> 0:12:50.360 FBI contributed. I have money pledged by various organizations. But 0:12:50.440 --> 0:12:53.559 when I solicited that money, I asked that they give 0:12:53.600 --> 0:12:56.160 me that money for a year. If we didn't use it, 0:12:56.240 --> 0:12:58.760 I'd give it back And and many of the people 0:12:58.760 --> 0:13:01.200 who made those contributions then asked for the money back, 0:13:01.240 --> 0:13:03.640 and that distributed back to them. I don't know what 0:13:03.720 --> 0:13:07.320 the total is right now. I presumed the FBI still 0:13:07.360 --> 0:13:10.040 have ten thousand available. I don't know how many thousands 0:13:10.080 --> 0:13:14.880 I have here, But that's for information that will lead 0:13:15.080 --> 0:13:19.280 us to an arrest of the person or persons responsible 0:13:19.360 --> 0:13:22.079 for perpetrating this crime. Since the last time we spoke 0:13:22.120 --> 0:13:24.880 about the Lake o'coni murder, Sheriff, you found yourself back 0:13:24.880 --> 0:13:28.080 in the national news with another double murder on your hands. 0:13:28.440 --> 0:13:30.600 Would you like to give our listeners from Insight into 0:13:30.679 --> 0:13:35.360 that case. Well, unfortunately, last Tuesday, you're in Putnam County 0:13:35.360 --> 0:13:39.200 and state prison bus was traveling through our county and 0:13:39.320 --> 0:13:43.439 too prisoners and the bus somehow got up into the 0:13:43.520 --> 0:13:49.559 driver's compartment and quite viciously murdered the two corrections officers 0:13:49.960 --> 0:13:53.480 and got out of the bus, carjack and individuals who 0:13:53.520 --> 0:13:57.240 was motors who were simply passing by, and then fled 0:13:57.360 --> 0:14:02.160 from the area, which quickly evolved and to the nationwide 0:14:02.240 --> 0:14:07.800 man hunt culminated a couple of last Thursday evening up 0:14:07.880 --> 0:14:13.679 and Rutherford Kenny, Tennessee near Murfreesboro. And obviously I was 0:14:13.800 --> 0:14:16.960 leading that man hunt. It was probably the biggest man 0:14:17.120 --> 0:14:22.120 hunt that drew the most attention. The desperate man hunt 0:14:22.200 --> 0:14:26.720 going nationwide. Tonight, two inmates in Georgia overpowering their guards 0:14:26.720 --> 0:14:30.320 and a prison bus, killing them using the officer's own weapons. 0:14:30.800 --> 0:14:33.160 The inmates then getting away in a stolen vehicle. They 0:14:33.240 --> 0:14:36.600 car jacked officials now warning they are armed and dangerous. 0:14:36.640 --> 0:14:38.720 This is forty three year old Donnie Row and twenty 0:14:38.760 --> 0:14:41.800 four year old Ricky debos Uh. They were on their 0:14:41.840 --> 0:14:44.840 way from one prison to another. There they are when 0:14:44.880 --> 0:14:47.600 investigators say that they busted out of the locked part 0:14:47.680 --> 0:14:50.840 of that bus. Now they overpowered two guards, stole their 0:14:50.880 --> 0:14:53.720 weapons and killed them both in front of thirty one 0:14:53.760 --> 0:14:57.200 other inmates. Georgia authorities tonight tell us that the inmates 0:14:57.200 --> 0:15:00.600 who got away after murdering two prison guards out running 0:15:00.600 --> 0:15:04.200 around with forty caliber glocks and could kill again a 0:15:04.320 --> 0:15:08.040 terrible sudden act of violence, launching a statewide manhunt for 0:15:08.160 --> 0:15:12.560 Donnie Row and Ricky Dubos. Considered armed and dangerous, there 0:15:12.640 --> 0:15:15.920 is a sixty thousand dollar reward tonight for their capture. 0:15:15.920 --> 0:15:18.920 On the run now for sixteen plus hours, put New 0:15:18.960 --> 0:15:22.640 County police are desperately searching for these two fugitives. Forty 0:15:22.680 --> 0:15:25.160 three year old Donnie Row and twenty four year old 0:15:25.240 --> 0:15:29.120 Ricky DuBose both are career criminals who are serving hard time, 0:15:29.440 --> 0:15:31.120 and police say one of them is a member of 0:15:31.120 --> 0:15:39.120 the Ghost Faced Gangsters, a white supremacist prison gang. All 0:15:39.360 --> 0:15:41.960 arms of law enforcement are now gathered here. They are 0:15:42.000 --> 0:15:45.360 doing searches. They continue even though it is dark. The 0:15:45.480 --> 0:15:49.160 worry here is to find those two convicts before they 0:15:49.240 --> 0:15:53.000 hurt anyone else. The card dating white, they are in 0:15:53.080 --> 0:15:57.120 a great ob Alperabat meantime, officers from all jurisdictions are 0:15:57.200 --> 0:16:00.120 checking out each and every reported sighting of the escape 0:16:00.120 --> 0:16:03.320 beats and telling residents be on the lookout for this 0:16:03.360 --> 0:16:06.720 green Honda Civic and these two faces. The bus ride 0:16:06.720 --> 0:16:09.880 from where they escaped early this morning was unscheduled and 0:16:10.000 --> 0:16:12.840 was moving thirty three inmates from one prison to another. 0:16:13.040 --> 0:16:15.600 Atolice say the two men broke through a locked barrier 0:16:15.640 --> 0:16:19.640 and back and attack prison transfer. Sergeant's Christopher Monica and 0:16:19.720 --> 0:16:26.640 Curtis Blue both lead behind devastated families tonight. They need 0:16:26.640 --> 0:16:30.240 to surrender before we find them. I saw two brutally 0:16:30.360 --> 0:16:34.800 murdered chrish saw. That's what I saw. I have their 0:16:34.800 --> 0:16:41.880 blood on my shoes. On June, just one day before 0:16:41.920 --> 0:16:46.640 the release of Sworn, these two convicted armed robbers allegedly 0:16:46.720 --> 0:16:51.480 shot and killed to Georgia corrections officers during a prison transport, 0:16:52.000 --> 0:16:55.480 and they happened to have done this in Putnam County. 0:16:55.720 --> 0:16:58.560 Share Sills, of course, was one of the first riding 0:16:58.680 --> 0:17:01.840 officers and let a nationwide man hunt that wound up 0:17:01.840 --> 0:17:06.639 in Tennessee following a series of carjackings, carths of breaking 0:17:06.640 --> 0:17:10.200 and entering, a home invasion, and finally ending in Tennessee 0:17:10.280 --> 0:17:13.600 following a high speed police chase where they actually shot 0:17:13.640 --> 0:17:16.639 at the deputies with guns that were stolen from the 0:17:16.720 --> 0:17:20.400 murder victims in Georgia. Sheriff Sills said that this high 0:17:20.440 --> 0:17:25.040 speed chase ended in Moore County, Tennessee seventy five miles 0:17:25.040 --> 0:17:28.639 southeast of Nashville. Just a few days later, Sheriff Sells 0:17:28.720 --> 0:17:31.480 went personally to pick them up and bring them back 0:17:31.560 --> 0:17:35.280 to Georgia, where they now face capital murder charges and 0:17:35.359 --> 0:17:38.600 are facing the death penalty. A lot of people are 0:17:38.600 --> 0:17:42.160 asking about DNA or the lack of DNA. Was there 0:17:42.160 --> 0:17:46.840 ever any DNA of any type that was collected that 0:17:47.040 --> 0:17:50.480 could not have been identified? Every piece of tangible evidence 0:17:50.520 --> 0:17:53.640 that was there or any place that we thought there 0:17:53.680 --> 0:17:56.880 would be. We submitted that to the LAMB. I won't 0:17:56.880 --> 0:18:01.320 elaborate on what results may or may not pasulting from 0:18:01.320 --> 0:18:04.520 their tests. There's a lot of people that are asking 0:18:04.560 --> 0:18:08.840 about a deceased child of the Dermans that had been 0:18:09.480 --> 0:18:13.600 murdered some years prior to this. Was that episode looked 0:18:13.640 --> 0:18:16.600 at and do you think there's any connection? Yes, obviously 0:18:17.040 --> 0:18:19.560 when we heard that they had a son who had 0:18:19.560 --> 0:18:24.560 been murdered, we obviously lioked to that immediately. Almost the 0:18:24.680 --> 0:18:29.439 dun was moved here, had been living here for fourteen years. 0:18:29.880 --> 0:18:34.080 They left the Metro Atlanta area in two thousand, shortly 0:18:34.080 --> 0:18:37.240 after their son was murdered. Their son was not a 0:18:37.320 --> 0:18:40.719 drug trafficker, He was not in any cartail. He was 0:18:41.359 --> 0:18:45.360 none of the their son unfortunately, was like so many 0:18:45.680 --> 0:18:48.919 people that I've dealt with over the years, and this 0:18:49.040 --> 0:18:53.000 one son who was a drug annic, and as many 0:18:53.040 --> 0:18:56.840 people know, they start doing anything to get their drugs. 0:18:56.920 --> 0:19:00.480 You know. This this was a typical scenario where you know, 0:19:00.560 --> 0:19:03.640 he'd stolen from his parents and did death. So eventually 0:19:03.640 --> 0:19:07.160 actually did a robbery one time up in New York 0:19:07.560 --> 0:19:09.919 and he was in and out of rehab and things 0:19:10.000 --> 0:19:13.040 like that. And on his birthday of the year two thousand, 0:19:13.840 --> 0:19:17.840 he and another individual went over and west side of Atlanta, 0:19:17.960 --> 0:19:22.880 kent over near the area they called the Bluff today, 0:19:22.960 --> 0:19:26.400 which is well known drug area in the city of Atlanta, 0:19:26.600 --> 0:19:29.080 and he had a friend went over there to buy 0:19:29.119 --> 0:19:32.320 some drugs. I highly suspected he probably was using some 0:19:32.440 --> 0:19:36.600 money that he gotten for his birthday. And unfortunately they 0:19:36.720 --> 0:19:39.400 pulled up on the street to a drug dealer over there, 0:19:39.440 --> 0:19:42.440 and that individual apparently was not settling that day that 0:19:42.560 --> 0:19:45.159 the individual was ribbing and shot both of them in 0:19:45.200 --> 0:19:48.679 their car. The nerman son died there at the scene. 0:19:49.160 --> 0:19:54.280 The other individual lived and someone was arrested, prosecuted, tried 0:19:54.359 --> 0:19:57.359 for murder and is presently in prison from the murder 0:19:57.400 --> 0:20:01.280 of the Durwan boy and aggravody assault of the other person. 0:20:01.320 --> 0:20:04.359 That person survived, of course, you know the Nermans that 0:20:04.400 --> 0:20:06.919 didn't go to the trial. We or people told us 0:20:06.920 --> 0:20:08.800 that there was getting ready to be a parole here. 0:20:09.160 --> 0:20:12.879 Absolutely untrue. People told us that the dervants had written 0:20:12.960 --> 0:20:16.639 letters to the prole board. Did not happen. There certainly 0:20:16.680 --> 0:20:21.200 seems to be no nexus between his murderer and his parents. 0:20:21.200 --> 0:20:25.159 Were We saw the guard shack at the entrance to 0:20:25.400 --> 0:20:28.840 their subdivision at the time. It did not have gates. 0:20:29.000 --> 0:20:34.880 But was it a situation inteen where if you lived 0:20:34.920 --> 0:20:37.840 there and you were expecting a guest or a visitor, 0:20:38.040 --> 0:20:40.920 that you would have to call the guard shack, call 0:20:41.000 --> 0:20:43.920 security and leave their name at the front. Yes, there 0:20:44.000 --> 0:20:48.080 wasn't a bar there as there is now, or the scanner. 0:20:48.600 --> 0:20:51.600 If you were remember of rentals or had a work 0:20:51.600 --> 0:20:53.920 per minute, in short, if you had a rental sticker 0:20:54.000 --> 0:20:56.320 for you Winshield issue to you, you were way through. 0:20:56.440 --> 0:20:59.640 If not, the procedure was that someone had to call 0:20:59.720 --> 0:21:02.639 ahead to allow you admitting. Of course, unless you were 0:21:02.920 --> 0:21:06.520 said you were going to the clubhouse for dinner or 0:21:06.560 --> 0:21:09.040 something like that and you were way through it at 0:21:09.080 --> 0:21:12.000 that time. Obviously we chet those records. Needs to say, 0:21:12.240 --> 0:21:14.760 at least at this point in time, that did not 0:21:14.920 --> 0:21:18.520 believe anything it was beneficial to us. To your knowledge, 0:21:18.560 --> 0:21:22.640 were they expecting any visitors or any contractors or anybody 0:21:22.720 --> 0:21:25.560 like that to come to their home. Not to my knowledge, 0:21:25.640 --> 0:21:29.760 but you know, contractors went in and out of there constantly. 0:21:30.040 --> 0:21:34.720 A contractor with a propriate documentation was way through. Those 0:21:34.760 --> 0:21:37.480 people who have listened to the podcast and have subsequently 0:21:37.520 --> 0:21:41.359 gone back and looked over other publicly available information, the 0:21:41.400 --> 0:21:46.240 overwhelming theory seems to be that whoever did this came 0:21:46.480 --> 0:21:50.080 and left by boat. Do you believe that to be 0:21:50.119 --> 0:21:53.879 the case. Not necessarily I don't. They certainly could have. 0:21:54.640 --> 0:21:58.000 I will say this Mrs Nerman's body because of where 0:21:58.000 --> 0:22:01.239 it was and where we were covered it over on 0:22:01.280 --> 0:22:04.480 the Green County side of the lake in an uninhabited 0:22:04.520 --> 0:22:09.159 area that was not accessible by the vehicle. That, in 0:22:09.240 --> 0:22:13.880 combination with the weights being on our body, the hydraulics 0:22:13.880 --> 0:22:18.000 of the water movement itself, all of those factors, and 0:22:18.040 --> 0:22:24.040 we consulted with Georgia Power about water flow hydraulic experts 0:22:24.119 --> 0:22:28.280 at the University of Georgia made us comfortable knowing that 0:22:28.320 --> 0:22:31.639 her body had not moved very far once it begin 0:22:31.800 --> 0:22:35.439 to ascend from the bottom. Therefore, we are confident that 0:22:35.560 --> 0:22:40.000 her body was disposed of by boat. And obviously she 0:22:40.080 --> 0:22:43.000 could have been transported, and all of this could have 0:22:43.080 --> 0:22:47.320 happened by water, but it also could have happened by 0:22:47.400 --> 0:22:51.480 ground transportation, or it could have happened by boat. What 0:22:51.720 --> 0:22:56.320 about the weather between the Saturday when you believe they 0:22:56.359 --> 0:23:00.720 were murdered and the Tuesday when they were found. Was 0:23:00.760 --> 0:23:04.760 there any weather activity that could have interfered with any 0:23:04.880 --> 0:23:08.040 forensic evidence that may be present outside the home. No, 0:23:08.320 --> 0:23:11.879 I can't remember right now. Obviously we probably have that documented, 0:23:12.000 --> 0:23:15.040 but there was nothing evident outside. It was a For instance, 0:23:15.080 --> 0:23:19.320 it was very clear from where blood was insider in 0:23:19.359 --> 0:23:23.600 regards to the decapitation procedure itself, that it the garage 0:23:23.680 --> 0:23:25.960 doors were shut at the time. That was very clear 0:23:26.080 --> 0:23:29.560 from physical evidence at the scene, but the newspapers and 0:23:29.640 --> 0:23:32.480 things like that had not been collected for a couple 0:23:32.520 --> 0:23:35.000 of days they were driving. Through my knowledge, there have 0:23:35.119 --> 0:23:37.960 been no extensive rain or anything from the time of 0:23:37.960 --> 0:23:42.080 the murder until the time we discovered Mr. Dermot's body. 0:23:42.480 --> 0:23:47.400 How do you search an entire exterior or front yard 0:23:47.480 --> 0:23:51.960 and backyard of this residence. For this particular case, we 0:23:52.080 --> 0:23:55.439 even searched beyond that. You take a hundred deputy shares 0:23:56.240 --> 0:23:58.960 and you put them an arm to arm and you 0:23:59.040 --> 0:24:02.240 walked through the woods. Sheriff, are you still making yourself 0:24:02.280 --> 0:24:05.159 available to investigate any new leads that may come up 0:24:05.160 --> 0:24:09.159 in this case? Absolutely peeled and the best example, you know, 0:24:09.600 --> 0:24:11.639 we got some information doesn't look like it's going to 0:24:11.720 --> 0:24:15.320 be anything to it last Friday, right when I was 0:24:15.359 --> 0:24:19.320 still very much in the aftermath of this most recent 0:24:19.400 --> 0:24:23.240 double murder here at this county in obviously, I stopped 0:24:23.280 --> 0:24:25.960 what I was doing and responded to that and assigned 0:24:26.040 --> 0:24:28.919 some some people to do some things based on that 0:24:29.080 --> 0:24:31.520 information that was Friday. It doesn't look like it's going 0:24:31.560 --> 0:24:34.240 to be anything to it. But I mentioned that only 0:24:34.400 --> 0:24:38.720 to assure everyone that we're still working on this case 0:24:39.240 --> 0:24:42.360 and are going to continue to work on it and 0:24:42.400 --> 0:24:46.400 continue to work on it aggressively if and as any 0:24:46.440 --> 0:24:51.000 information comes For so, if anybody has any information that 0:24:51.080 --> 0:24:53.399 they think could be helpful, what's the best way for 0:24:53.440 --> 0:24:56.720 them to get that information to you? Gota my office 0:24:57.359 --> 0:25:01.199 at seven oh six or eight f eight seven, or 0:25:01.320 --> 0:25:04.800 email me at shaff Seals at Puttingham County Sheriff dot 0:25:04.920 --> 0:25:09.200 org one or the other. There's obviously tipline on our 0:25:09.240 --> 0:25:12.560 website which is putting Them County Sheriff dot Org. And 0:25:12.800 --> 0:25:16.040 I promise you we're gonna look into it and respond 0:25:16.119 --> 0:25:19.919 to it. More than likely I will be responding to 0:25:19.960 --> 0:25:37.760 it personally. Sworn is produced by Tenderfoot TV in Atlanta. 0:25:38.200 --> 0:25:41.240 Sworn is mixed and mastered by Resonate Recordings. If you're 0:25:41.240 --> 0:25:44.360 in the market for podcast production, go to Resonate Recordings 0:25:44.440 --> 0:25:47.560 dot com to get your first episode produced for free. 0:25:48.640 --> 0:25:50.760 I'd personally like to say thank you to share Off 0:25:50.800 --> 0:25:53.080 Seals for his time, and I wish you the best 0:25:53.119 --> 0:25:56.000 of luck moving forward. I'd also like to thank you 0:25:56.200 --> 0:25:59.119 the listeners for tuning in. We're currently working on several 0:25:59.200 --> 0:26:03.080 new cases for upcoming episodes of Sworn. Each month we 0:26:03.119 --> 0:26:06.480 will bring you a new multipart mini series exposing the 0:26:06.560 --> 0:26:11.680 untold stories and the hard truths behind major cases, wrongful convictions, 0:26:11.840 --> 0:26:15.840 controversial legislation, and much much more. Stay up to date 0:26:15.960 --> 0:26:19.120