1 00:00:09,160 --> 00:00:10,920 Speaker 1: Place your left hand on the bay and Bible and 2 00:00:11,160 --> 00:00:15,000 Speaker 1: raise your right hand and repeat after me. I solemnly 3 00:00:15,080 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 1: swear the jury trying it intended not scars and around 4 00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:25,799 Speaker 1: the country. It makes no sense. If it doesn't fit, 5 00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:29,479 Speaker 1: you must equit. Judge. You are the last line of 6 00:00:29,560 --> 00:00:33,319 Speaker 1: reason in this casey very one of those took out 7 00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:37,120 Speaker 1: all the topothis, and we're sworn to uphold the Constitution. 8 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:42,920 Speaker 1: From Tenderfoot TV in Atlanta, this is sworn. I'm your host, 9 00:00:43,320 --> 00:00:47,360 Speaker 1: Philip Holloway. Here's my final thoughts on the Lake of 10 00:00:47,479 --> 00:00:52,040 Speaker 1: Coney murders. First, going into this, I felt a deep 11 00:00:52,120 --> 00:00:55,000 Speaker 1: sadness for the Derman's and for those who knew and 12 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:58,320 Speaker 1: loved them. Now that I've seen the case evidence, particularly 13 00:00:58,400 --> 00:01:01,320 Speaker 1: the photographs, and now the I have a better understanding 14 00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:04,440 Speaker 1: of the savagery of those murders. I'm angry that there's 15 00:01:04,520 --> 00:01:07,560 Speaker 1: some sick bastard out there who may very well get 16 00:01:07,560 --> 00:01:11,759 Speaker 1: away with this. Secondly, I empathize with Sheriff Sells. If 17 00:01:11,800 --> 00:01:15,000 Speaker 1: there's anything else he could possibly do. I don't have 18 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:18,080 Speaker 1: any idea what that would be. He left literally no 19 00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:21,560 Speaker 1: stone unturned. There's a lot of things that he did 20 00:01:21,600 --> 00:01:23,959 Speaker 1: in this case that if it were my case, I 21 00:01:24,040 --> 00:01:26,240 Speaker 1: might not have thought to do, but he had the 22 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:29,360 Speaker 1: presence of mind to do them. Some things about this 23 00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:33,640 Speaker 1: investigation were purposely left out of the podcast, but let 24 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:36,360 Speaker 1: me just say this, if I ever turn up missing 25 00:01:36,520 --> 00:01:39,399 Speaker 1: or murdered, he would be the person that I would 26 00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:43,440 Speaker 1: want investigating my case. Thirdly, here's what I think. I 27 00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:48,160 Speaker 1: know with a high degree of confidence. This was not random. 28 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:51,240 Speaker 1: This was not done by a professional. This was not 29 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:54,720 Speaker 1: done by the mob. I agree with the sheriff that Mr. 30 00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:58,160 Speaker 1: Dermot's head was likely removed to hide or to destroy 31 00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:01,720 Speaker 1: some type of evidence. I do believe a gun was involved, 32 00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:05,160 Speaker 1: and so does the sheriff. None of the Derman's children 33 00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:07,880 Speaker 1: had any role in this. You have to keep in 34 00:02:07,960 --> 00:02:12,120 Speaker 1: mind that they've been cleared, they cooperated with the investigation. 35 00:02:12,639 --> 00:02:16,000 Speaker 1: You have to understand that whoever did this was not 36 00:02:16,360 --> 00:02:21,399 Speaker 1: familiar with the inside of the dermans residence. So, assuming 37 00:02:21,440 --> 00:02:23,320 Speaker 1: that what I just said is right, and I think 38 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:26,720 Speaker 1: it is, here's what I think did happen. I believe 39 00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:30,720 Speaker 1: that two or more adult locals arrived in the early 40 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:34,840 Speaker 1: morning by boat. Nobody saw any strange vehicles, but somebody 41 00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:38,960 Speaker 1: did see an adult male in the Derman's yard that Saturday. 42 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:43,440 Speaker 1: There were no unaccounted for boat rentals and there were 43 00:02:43,600 --> 00:02:47,200 Speaker 1: no reported boat thefts, so I do think it was 44 00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:51,320 Speaker 1: locals with a boat. Whoever did this certainly had a 45 00:02:51,440 --> 00:02:54,400 Speaker 1: dark personality side. It may have even been someone with 46 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:57,519 Speaker 1: a murder fantasy. I think that the person or persons 47 00:02:57,560 --> 00:03:01,760 Speaker 1: responsible for these murders went to the Derman's house because 48 00:03:01,800 --> 00:03:05,600 Speaker 1: they wanted to extort Mr Dermott. After all, Mr Derman 49 00:03:05,919 --> 00:03:10,400 Speaker 1: was perceived at least to have access to some cash. 50 00:03:10,600 --> 00:03:13,080 Speaker 1: That raises the question of how are you going to 51 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:16,680 Speaker 1: extort Mr Dermot, And that's where Mrs Derman comes in. 52 00:03:17,040 --> 00:03:20,919 Speaker 1: I believe that she was going to be abducted for ransom, 53 00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:25,360 Speaker 1: but that Mr Dermot tried to fight physically fight to 54 00:03:25,480 --> 00:03:28,560 Speaker 1: prevent that abduction, and then the whole plan fell apart. 55 00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:32,280 Speaker 1: That would account for Mr Dermant's apparent defensive wound to 56 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:36,360 Speaker 1: his hand. Remember, she was killed with a blunt object, 57 00:03:36,760 --> 00:03:39,640 Speaker 1: a hammer or something similar to it, and I think 58 00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:42,320 Speaker 1: he was shot. He may have also been beaten, but 59 00:03:42,440 --> 00:03:45,000 Speaker 1: I do think he was shot. And then while the 60 00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:47,920 Speaker 1: body of Mrs Derman was being bound and weighted down 61 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:50,920 Speaker 1: and sunk to the bottom of the lake. I think 62 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:55,480 Speaker 1: someone or some one's remained behind at the home to 63 00:03:55,600 --> 00:03:59,800 Speaker 1: decapitate Mr Dermant's body, and then after Mrs Derman was 64 00:03:59,840 --> 00:04:02,880 Speaker 1: to bosed of in the lake, whoever was in that 65 00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:06,920 Speaker 1: boat returned to the Derman residence, and then everyone, along 66 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:12,240 Speaker 1: with Mr Derman's head, left by boat. Given the evidence 67 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:15,680 Speaker 1: that I've seen with my own eyes and based on 68 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:19,839 Speaker 1: my discussions with the sheriff and others, that's the most 69 00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:23,120 Speaker 1: plausible explanation I can think of. And here's the worst 70 00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:26,680 Speaker 1: of it. If I'm right, there's a killer or killers 71 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:30,719 Speaker 1: on the loose right now who live on or near 72 00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:35,000 Speaker 1: Lake Okoni. And unless somebody who knows something makes that 73 00:04:35,080 --> 00:04:38,400 Speaker 1: one phone call, they may very well get away with it, 74 00:04:38,520 --> 00:05:00,400 Speaker 1: or even worse, they may do it again. So before 75 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:04,040 Speaker 1: Sworn moves on to other issues in other cases, I 76 00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:07,080 Speaker 1: wanted to look into one other question that's been on 77 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:10,240 Speaker 1: my mind, and that question is what kind of person 78 00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:13,760 Speaker 1: would do something like this? What sort of twisted psychology 79 00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:16,440 Speaker 1: might be involved here? Those of you who listen to 80 00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:20,280 Speaker 1: our sister podcast Up and Vanished, you're no doubt familiar 81 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:23,240 Speaker 1: with Dr Maurice Godwin. I reached out to Maurice to 82 00:05:23,320 --> 00:05:26,400 Speaker 1: talk to him about this very question. I mean, the 83 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:30,360 Speaker 1: crime itself is very unusual. You know, after reading everything 84 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:32,840 Speaker 1: that I've could, I think that one of the main 85 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:37,240 Speaker 1: motives behind this was retribution. I mean, anytime that you're 86 00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:42,400 Speaker 1: in business and making that kind of money, there's always 87 00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:47,320 Speaker 1: a chance that you've crossed someone, but you don't ever 88 00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:50,919 Speaker 1: know it. It's definitely somebody with a criminal history. You 89 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:55,040 Speaker 1: are likely find them in the burglary files. There's no 90 00:05:55,080 --> 00:05:58,920 Speaker 1: doubt about that. Likely that the motive was a retribution. 91 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:02,760 Speaker 1: And I do not believe that the head was taken 92 00:06:03,080 --> 00:06:06,200 Speaker 1: for shock value. I don't believe that the head was 93 00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:11,159 Speaker 1: taken for a trophy or anything like that. It was 94 00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:16,960 Speaker 1: personal and the head was taken to show that they 95 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:21,520 Speaker 1: meant business there. And I think it was the ultimate revenge, 96 00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:25,400 Speaker 1: the ultimate retribution, and I think that that that's exactly 97 00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:28,400 Speaker 1: what it was. This is what I call a cognitive 98 00:06:28,960 --> 00:06:36,080 Speaker 1: object individual. Their cognitive awareness during the crime that anything 99 00:06:36,520 --> 00:06:40,800 Speaker 1: but leaving evidence that are very forensically aware. But the 100 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:44,960 Speaker 1: object part is how they see the victim. Rather than 101 00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:48,160 Speaker 1: seeing a victim as a vehicle, the vendor age, rage 102 00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:51,560 Speaker 1: and anger on, they saw the victim as an object, 103 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:56,000 Speaker 1: just a lifeless things sort of like a mannequin. And 104 00:06:56,279 --> 00:06:58,920 Speaker 1: so when you see something a person like that as 105 00:06:58,960 --> 00:07:03,680 Speaker 1: an object, then you don't have any kind of repercussions 106 00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:08,720 Speaker 1: psychological guilt or anything like that. When you do something 107 00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:13,960 Speaker 1: like removing the head, they have a sociopath tendencies of 108 00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:20,000 Speaker 1: no remorse, no empathy, no conscious They have no empathy. 109 00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:24,440 Speaker 1: They cannot empathize that like for example, other people cry 110 00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:28,640 Speaker 1: or other people hurt and have feelings. They don't have 111 00:07:28,760 --> 00:07:34,760 Speaker 1: any relationship to that. But this person here solve These 112 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:41,000 Speaker 1: people there's nothing but objects, are lifeless mannequin and that's 113 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:45,000 Speaker 1: all they did. And removing the head. Doing what they 114 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:48,120 Speaker 1: did to his wife was just like going to get 115 00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:51,960 Speaker 1: a hamburger. When you step into someone in one's house, 116 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:56,680 Speaker 1: and especially the house that biggest stuff, uh, and you've 117 00:07:56,720 --> 00:07:59,600 Speaker 1: never really done that before, you are out to make 118 00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:03,680 Speaker 1: mistake X. But if you've been in people's houses illegally, 119 00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:06,440 Speaker 1: breaking enter and stuff like that, and you've done it 120 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:10,000 Speaker 1: on a regular basis and stuff you're comfortable at, like 121 00:08:10,080 --> 00:08:14,480 Speaker 1: you're at home, so you're very more forensically aware. These 122 00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:19,080 Speaker 1: people were very forensically aware. These are the type of 123 00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:25,280 Speaker 1: people who see people as objects, objects to control, objects 124 00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:30,800 Speaker 1: to treat like a lifeless thing, a mannequin. That's exactly 125 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:34,440 Speaker 1: how they saw these people here. These are the type 126 00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:40,400 Speaker 1: of people that will not talk about this, So it's 127 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:43,080 Speaker 1: gonna be through investigative work that you're gonna have to 128 00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:46,319 Speaker 1: link them. It's not gonna be that somebody said something 129 00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:51,000 Speaker 1: to somebody else and and causing a til um. You're 130 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:55,080 Speaker 1: looking at somebody that's uh in their late thirties early forties. 131 00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:58,360 Speaker 1: Based on the type of crime. It was the age 132 00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:03,120 Speaker 1: of the victims, in the sophistication, the elaborate planning that 133 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:07,560 Speaker 1: they did with this. This was a drawn out They 134 00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:11,960 Speaker 1: drew this out on paper, and they planned this out 135 00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:15,280 Speaker 1: and they pulled it off just like a military exercise. 136 00:09:15,920 --> 00:09:19,319 Speaker 1: These people did exactly what they meant to do. They 137 00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:21,800 Speaker 1: were planning to cut his head off before they ever 138 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:24,720 Speaker 1: stepped foot on his property. There's no doubt about it. 139 00:09:25,280 --> 00:09:29,960 Speaker 1: The age, I mean, just considering doing this to a 140 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:35,640 Speaker 1: real elderly couple, a man cut eighty eight years always stuff. 141 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:41,160 Speaker 1: This was really personal. Somebody had hate. Something went wrong 142 00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:45,760 Speaker 1: in this guy's background that he didn't realize that was 143 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:49,800 Speaker 1: bad as it was this was a random thing. Somebody 144 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:55,000 Speaker 1: had a personal revenge and they sought retribution against this person. 145 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:11,840 Speaker 1: Good afternoon, Sheriff. Thanks for talking with me again. Thanks 146 00:10:11,880 --> 00:10:14,880 Speaker 1: thanks for having me. We've learned a lot about the 147 00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:17,440 Speaker 1: double murder of the Dermans. You know, last time we 148 00:10:17,520 --> 00:10:20,760 Speaker 1: spoke and when we visited with you, we briefly covered 149 00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:24,400 Speaker 1: the family members. But can you elaborate on how you 150 00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:29,160 Speaker 1: eliminated family and close friends as suspects in this case. Yes, 151 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:34,400 Speaker 1: obviously we obtained cell phone records of the children. The 152 00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:39,520 Speaker 1: estate of the Dermans passed only to their children, although 153 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:43,800 Speaker 1: there was one grandchild who did get a very small 154 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:49,679 Speaker 1: amount of money, but the three children inherited the estate. Obviously, 155 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:53,280 Speaker 1: we had their cell phone records, which included the tower 156 00:10:53,400 --> 00:10:58,200 Speaker 1: sites that we're being hit during the time of the crime. 157 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:01,640 Speaker 1: None of those tower site for anywhere in the state 158 00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:05,720 Speaker 1: of Georgia, much less near the German home. Obviously, that 159 00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:10,160 Speaker 1: doesn't completely eliminate someone, but we polygraphed all three of 160 00:11:10,240 --> 00:11:14,560 Speaker 1: the children, and of course they all passed the polygraphs. 161 00:11:14,920 --> 00:11:19,480 Speaker 1: Nothing in the course of our investigation so far has 162 00:11:19,559 --> 00:11:22,920 Speaker 1: revealed any sort of animosity or anything like that. Between 163 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:27,440 Speaker 1: There are no children and the victims. So through a 164 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:33,000 Speaker 1: combination of the totality of all of that, we eliminated them. 165 00:11:33,040 --> 00:11:35,640 Speaker 1: Now you've been shared for what over twenty years now, 166 00:11:36,080 --> 00:11:39,240 Speaker 1: And of course I wouldn't presume to know what you 167 00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:41,960 Speaker 1: plan to do in the future. But if it just 168 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:45,280 Speaker 1: so happens that your retirement comes before that break in 169 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:48,960 Speaker 1: the case, how would that affects you personally? If it 170 00:11:49,120 --> 00:11:52,480 Speaker 1: happens that you retire and there's there's never any resolution 171 00:11:52,559 --> 00:11:54,640 Speaker 1: to this case. First of all, let me say I 172 00:11:54,679 --> 00:11:58,640 Speaker 1: don't have any intentions of retiring anytime soon. And secondly, 173 00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:02,839 Speaker 1: if I did retire, I certainly would like to if 174 00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:06,480 Speaker 1: that were to happen, I would not just turn over 175 00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:09,200 Speaker 1: all these boxes and files. I'd like to sit down 176 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:12,240 Speaker 1: and explain everything I knew about the case. It's the 177 00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:15,120 Speaker 1: only way that you could do that and do your 178 00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:18,079 Speaker 1: duty before you retire. And even if I retired, I 179 00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:21,960 Speaker 1: would certainly be available and willing to help in any 180 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:25,320 Speaker 1: way you met my retirement. But let me stress again, 181 00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:29,120 Speaker 1: just because I've been sure for over twenty years doesn't 182 00:12:29,120 --> 00:12:33,160 Speaker 1: mean I'm ready to retire. What is the current situation 183 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:37,240 Speaker 1: of the reward that's available and what is required for 184 00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:40,600 Speaker 1: someone to be eligible to receive that reward. I don't 185 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:44,280 Speaker 1: have the total. When I first solicted that reward, the 186 00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:50,360 Speaker 1: FBI contributed. I have money pledged by various organizations. But 187 00:12:50,440 --> 00:12:53,559 Speaker 1: when I solicited that money, I asked that they give 188 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:56,160 Speaker 1: me that money for a year. If we didn't use it, 189 00:12:56,240 --> 00:12:58,760 Speaker 1: I'd give it back And and many of the people 190 00:12:58,760 --> 00:13:01,200 Speaker 1: who made those contributions then asked for the money back, 191 00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:03,640 Speaker 1: and that distributed back to them. I don't know what 192 00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:07,320 Speaker 1: the total is right now. I presumed the FBI still 193 00:13:07,360 --> 00:13:10,040 Speaker 1: have ten thousand available. I don't know how many thousands 194 00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:14,880 Speaker 1: I have here, But that's for information that will lead 195 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:19,280 Speaker 1: us to an arrest of the person or persons responsible 196 00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:22,079 Speaker 1: for perpetrating this crime. Since the last time we spoke 197 00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:24,880 Speaker 1: about the Lake o'coni murder, Sheriff, you found yourself back 198 00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:28,080 Speaker 1: in the national news with another double murder on your hands. 199 00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:30,600 Speaker 1: Would you like to give our listeners from Insight into 200 00:13:30,679 --> 00:13:35,360 Speaker 1: that case. Well, unfortunately, last Tuesday, you're in Putnam County 201 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:39,200 Speaker 1: and state prison bus was traveling through our county and 202 00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:43,439 Speaker 1: too prisoners and the bus somehow got up into the 203 00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:49,559 Speaker 1: driver's compartment and quite viciously murdered the two corrections officers 204 00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:53,480 Speaker 1: and got out of the bus, carjack and individuals who 205 00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:57,240 Speaker 1: was motors who were simply passing by, and then fled 206 00:13:57,360 --> 00:14:02,160 Speaker 1: from the area, which quickly evolved and to the nationwide 207 00:14:02,240 --> 00:14:07,800 Speaker 1: man hunt culminated a couple of last Thursday evening up 208 00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:13,679 Speaker 1: and Rutherford Kenny, Tennessee near Murfreesboro. And obviously I was 209 00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:16,960 Speaker 1: leading that man hunt. It was probably the biggest man 210 00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:22,120 Speaker 1: hunt that drew the most attention. The desperate man hunt 211 00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:26,720 Speaker 1: going nationwide. Tonight, two inmates in Georgia overpowering their guards 212 00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:30,320 Speaker 1: and a prison bus, killing them using the officer's own weapons. 213 00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:33,160 Speaker 1: The inmates then getting away in a stolen vehicle. They 214 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:36,600 Speaker 1: car jacked officials now warning they are armed and dangerous. 215 00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:38,720 Speaker 1: This is forty three year old Donnie Row and twenty 216 00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:41,800 Speaker 1: four year old Ricky debos Uh. They were on their 217 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:44,840 Speaker 1: way from one prison to another. There they are when 218 00:14:44,880 --> 00:14:47,600 Speaker 1: investigators say that they busted out of the locked part 219 00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:50,840 Speaker 1: of that bus. Now they overpowered two guards, stole their 220 00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:53,720 Speaker 1: weapons and killed them both in front of thirty one 221 00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:57,200 Speaker 1: other inmates. Georgia authorities tonight tell us that the inmates 222 00:14:57,200 --> 00:15:00,600 Speaker 1: who got away after murdering two prison guards out running 223 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:04,200 Speaker 1: around with forty caliber glocks and could kill again a 224 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:08,040 Speaker 1: terrible sudden act of violence, launching a statewide manhunt for 225 00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:12,560 Speaker 1: Donnie Row and Ricky Dubos. Considered armed and dangerous, there 226 00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:15,920 Speaker 1: is a sixty thousand dollar reward tonight for their capture. 227 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:18,920 Speaker 1: On the run now for sixteen plus hours, put New 228 00:15:18,960 --> 00:15:22,640 Speaker 1: County police are desperately searching for these two fugitives. Forty 229 00:15:22,680 --> 00:15:25,160 Speaker 1: three year old Donnie Row and twenty four year old 230 00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:29,120 Speaker 1: Ricky DuBose both are career criminals who are serving hard time, 231 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:31,120 Speaker 1: and police say one of them is a member of 232 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:39,120 Speaker 1: the Ghost Faced Gangsters, a white supremacist prison gang. All 233 00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:41,960 Speaker 1: arms of law enforcement are now gathered here. They are 234 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:45,360 Speaker 1: doing searches. They continue even though it is dark. The 235 00:15:45,480 --> 00:15:49,160 Speaker 1: worry here is to find those two convicts before they 236 00:15:49,240 --> 00:15:53,000 Speaker 1: hurt anyone else. The card dating white, they are in 237 00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:57,120 Speaker 1: a great ob Alperabat meantime, officers from all jurisdictions are 238 00:15:57,200 --> 00:16:00,120 Speaker 1: checking out each and every reported sighting of the escape 239 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:03,320 Speaker 1: beats and telling residents be on the lookout for this 240 00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:06,720 Speaker 1: green Honda Civic and these two faces. The bus ride 241 00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:09,880 Speaker 1: from where they escaped early this morning was unscheduled and 242 00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:12,840 Speaker 1: was moving thirty three inmates from one prison to another. 243 00:16:13,040 --> 00:16:15,600 Speaker 1: Atolice say the two men broke through a locked barrier 244 00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:19,640 Speaker 1: and back and attack prison transfer. Sergeant's Christopher Monica and 245 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:26,640 Speaker 1: Curtis Blue both lead behind devastated families tonight. They need 246 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:30,240 Speaker 1: to surrender before we find them. I saw two brutally 247 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:34,800 Speaker 1: murdered chrish saw. That's what I saw. I have their 248 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:41,880 Speaker 1: blood on my shoes. On June, just one day before 249 00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:46,640 Speaker 1: the release of Sworn, these two convicted armed robbers allegedly 250 00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:51,480 Speaker 1: shot and killed to Georgia corrections officers during a prison transport, 251 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:55,480 Speaker 1: and they happened to have done this in Putnam County. 252 00:16:55,720 --> 00:16:58,560 Speaker 1: Share Sills, of course, was one of the first riding 253 00:16:58,680 --> 00:17:01,840 Speaker 1: officers and let a nationwide man hunt that wound up 254 00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:06,639 Speaker 1: in Tennessee following a series of carjackings, carths of breaking 255 00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:10,200 Speaker 1: and entering, a home invasion, and finally ending in Tennessee 256 00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:13,600 Speaker 1: following a high speed police chase where they actually shot 257 00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:16,639 Speaker 1: at the deputies with guns that were stolen from the 258 00:17:16,720 --> 00:17:20,400 Speaker 1: murder victims in Georgia. Sheriff Sills said that this high 259 00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:25,040 Speaker 1: speed chase ended in Moore County, Tennessee seventy five miles 260 00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:28,639 Speaker 1: southeast of Nashville. Just a few days later, Sheriff Sells 261 00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:31,480 Speaker 1: went personally to pick them up and bring them back 262 00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:35,280 Speaker 1: to Georgia, where they now face capital murder charges and 263 00:17:35,359 --> 00:17:38,600 Speaker 1: are facing the death penalty. A lot of people are 264 00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:42,160 Speaker 1: asking about DNA or the lack of DNA. Was there 265 00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:46,840 Speaker 1: ever any DNA of any type that was collected that 266 00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:50,480 Speaker 1: could not have been identified? Every piece of tangible evidence 267 00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:53,640 Speaker 1: that was there or any place that we thought there 268 00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:56,880 Speaker 1: would be. We submitted that to the LAMB. I won't 269 00:17:56,880 --> 00:18:01,320 Speaker 1: elaborate on what results may or may not pasulting from 270 00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:04,520 Speaker 1: their tests. There's a lot of people that are asking 271 00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:08,840 Speaker 1: about a deceased child of the Dermans that had been 272 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:13,600 Speaker 1: murdered some years prior to this. Was that episode looked 273 00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:16,600 Speaker 1: at and do you think there's any connection? Yes, obviously 274 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:19,560 Speaker 1: when we heard that they had a son who had 275 00:18:19,560 --> 00:18:24,560 Speaker 1: been murdered, we obviously lioked to that immediately. Almost the 276 00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:29,439 Speaker 1: dun was moved here, had been living here for fourteen years. 277 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:34,080 Speaker 1: They left the Metro Atlanta area in two thousand, shortly 278 00:18:34,080 --> 00:18:37,240 Speaker 1: after their son was murdered. Their son was not a 279 00:18:37,320 --> 00:18:40,719 Speaker 1: drug trafficker, He was not in any cartail. He was 280 00:18:41,359 --> 00:18:45,360 Speaker 1: none of the their son unfortunately, was like so many 281 00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:48,919 Speaker 1: people that I've dealt with over the years, and this 282 00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:53,000 Speaker 1: one son who was a drug annic, and as many 283 00:18:53,040 --> 00:18:56,840 Speaker 1: people know, they start doing anything to get their drugs. 284 00:18:56,920 --> 00:19:00,480 Speaker 1: You know. This this was a typical scenario where you know, 285 00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:03,640 Speaker 1: he'd stolen from his parents and did death. So eventually 286 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:07,160 Speaker 1: actually did a robbery one time up in New York 287 00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:09,919 Speaker 1: and he was in and out of rehab and things 288 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:13,040 Speaker 1: like that. And on his birthday of the year two thousand, 289 00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:17,840 Speaker 1: he and another individual went over and west side of Atlanta, 290 00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:22,880 Speaker 1: kent over near the area they called the Bluff today, 291 00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:26,400 Speaker 1: which is well known drug area in the city of Atlanta, 292 00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:29,080 Speaker 1: and he had a friend went over there to buy 293 00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:32,320 Speaker 1: some drugs. I highly suspected he probably was using some 294 00:19:32,440 --> 00:19:36,600 Speaker 1: money that he gotten for his birthday. And unfortunately they 295 00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:39,400 Speaker 1: pulled up on the street to a drug dealer over there, 296 00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:42,440 Speaker 1: and that individual apparently was not settling that day that 297 00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:45,159 Speaker 1: the individual was ribbing and shot both of them in 298 00:19:45,200 --> 00:19:48,679 Speaker 1: their car. The nerman son died there at the scene. 299 00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:54,280 Speaker 1: The other individual lived and someone was arrested, prosecuted, tried 300 00:19:54,359 --> 00:19:57,359 Speaker 1: for murder and is presently in prison from the murder 301 00:19:57,400 --> 00:20:01,280 Speaker 1: of the Durwan boy and aggravody assault of the other person. 302 00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:04,359 Speaker 1: That person survived, of course, you know the Nermans that 303 00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:06,919 Speaker 1: didn't go to the trial. We or people told us 304 00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:08,800 Speaker 1: that there was getting ready to be a parole here. 305 00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:12,879 Speaker 1: Absolutely untrue. People told us that the dervants had written 306 00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:16,639 Speaker 1: letters to the prole board. Did not happen. There certainly 307 00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:21,200 Speaker 1: seems to be no nexus between his murderer and his parents. 308 00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:25,159 Speaker 1: Were We saw the guard shack at the entrance to 309 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:28,840 Speaker 1: their subdivision at the time. It did not have gates. 310 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:34,880 Speaker 1: But was it a situation inteen where if you lived 311 00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:37,840 Speaker 1: there and you were expecting a guest or a visitor, 312 00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:40,920 Speaker 1: that you would have to call the guard shack, call 313 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:43,920 Speaker 1: security and leave their name at the front. Yes, there 314 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:48,080 Speaker 1: wasn't a bar there as there is now, or the scanner. 315 00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:51,600 Speaker 1: If you were remember of rentals or had a work 316 00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:53,920 Speaker 1: per minute, in short, if you had a rental sticker 317 00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:56,320 Speaker 1: for you Winshield issue to you, you were way through. 318 00:20:56,440 --> 00:20:59,640 Speaker 1: If not, the procedure was that someone had to call 319 00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:02,639 Speaker 1: ahead to allow you admitting. Of course, unless you were 320 00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:06,520 Speaker 1: said you were going to the clubhouse for dinner or 321 00:21:06,560 --> 00:21:09,040 Speaker 1: something like that and you were way through it at 322 00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:12,000 Speaker 1: that time. Obviously we chet those records. Needs to say, 323 00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:14,760 Speaker 1: at least at this point in time, that did not 324 00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:18,520 Speaker 1: believe anything it was beneficial to us. To your knowledge, 325 00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:22,640 Speaker 1: were they expecting any visitors or any contractors or anybody 326 00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:25,560 Speaker 1: like that to come to their home. Not to my knowledge, 327 00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:29,760 Speaker 1: but you know, contractors went in and out of there constantly. 328 00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:34,720 Speaker 1: A contractor with a propriate documentation was way through. Those 329 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:37,480 Speaker 1: people who have listened to the podcast and have subsequently 330 00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:41,359 Speaker 1: gone back and looked over other publicly available information, the 331 00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:46,240 Speaker 1: overwhelming theory seems to be that whoever did this came 332 00:21:46,480 --> 00:21:50,080 Speaker 1: and left by boat. Do you believe that to be 333 00:21:50,119 --> 00:21:53,879 Speaker 1: the case. Not necessarily I don't. They certainly could have. 334 00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:58,000 Speaker 1: I will say this Mrs Nerman's body because of where 335 00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:01,239 Speaker 1: it was and where we were covered it over on 336 00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:04,480 Speaker 1: the Green County side of the lake in an uninhabited 337 00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:09,159 Speaker 1: area that was not accessible by the vehicle. That, in 338 00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:13,880 Speaker 1: combination with the weights being on our body, the hydraulics 339 00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:18,000 Speaker 1: of the water movement itself, all of those factors, and 340 00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:24,040 Speaker 1: we consulted with Georgia Power about water flow hydraulic experts 341 00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:28,280 Speaker 1: at the University of Georgia made us comfortable knowing that 342 00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:31,639 Speaker 1: her body had not moved very far once it begin 343 00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:35,439 Speaker 1: to ascend from the bottom. Therefore, we are confident that 344 00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:40,000 Speaker 1: her body was disposed of by boat. And obviously she 345 00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:43,000 Speaker 1: could have been transported, and all of this could have 346 00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:47,320 Speaker 1: happened by water, but it also could have happened by 347 00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:51,480 Speaker 1: ground transportation, or it could have happened by boat. What 348 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:56,320 Speaker 1: about the weather between the Saturday when you believe they 349 00:22:56,359 --> 00:23:00,720 Speaker 1: were murdered and the Tuesday when they were found. Was 350 00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:04,760 Speaker 1: there any weather activity that could have interfered with any 351 00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:08,040 Speaker 1: forensic evidence that may be present outside the home. No, 352 00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:11,879 Speaker 1: I can't remember right now. Obviously we probably have that documented, 353 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:15,040 Speaker 1: but there was nothing evident outside. It was a For instance, 354 00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:19,320 Speaker 1: it was very clear from where blood was insider in 355 00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:23,600 Speaker 1: regards to the decapitation procedure itself, that it the garage 356 00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:25,960 Speaker 1: doors were shut at the time. That was very clear 357 00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:29,560 Speaker 1: from physical evidence at the scene, but the newspapers and 358 00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:32,480 Speaker 1: things like that had not been collected for a couple 359 00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:35,000 Speaker 1: of days they were driving. Through my knowledge, there have 360 00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:37,960 Speaker 1: been no extensive rain or anything from the time of 361 00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:42,080 Speaker 1: the murder until the time we discovered Mr. Dermot's body. 362 00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:47,400 Speaker 1: How do you search an entire exterior or front yard 363 00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:51,960 Speaker 1: and backyard of this residence. For this particular case, we 364 00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:55,439 Speaker 1: even searched beyond that. You take a hundred deputy shares 365 00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:58,960 Speaker 1: and you put them an arm to arm and you 366 00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:02,240 Speaker 1: walked through the woods. Sheriff, are you still making yourself 367 00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:05,159 Speaker 1: available to investigate any new leads that may come up 368 00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:09,159 Speaker 1: in this case? Absolutely peeled and the best example, you know, 369 00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:11,639 Speaker 1: we got some information doesn't look like it's going to 370 00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:15,320 Speaker 1: be anything to it last Friday, right when I was 371 00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:19,320 Speaker 1: still very much in the aftermath of this most recent 372 00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:23,240 Speaker 1: double murder here at this county in obviously, I stopped 373 00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:25,960 Speaker 1: what I was doing and responded to that and assigned 374 00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:28,919 Speaker 1: some some people to do some things based on that 375 00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:31,520 Speaker 1: information that was Friday. It doesn't look like it's going 376 00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:34,240 Speaker 1: to be anything to it. But I mentioned that only 377 00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:38,720 Speaker 1: to assure everyone that we're still working on this case 378 00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:42,360 Speaker 1: and are going to continue to work on it and 379 00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:46,400 Speaker 1: continue to work on it aggressively if and as any 380 00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:51,000 Speaker 1: information comes For so, if anybody has any information that 381 00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:53,399 Speaker 1: they think could be helpful, what's the best way for 382 00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:56,720 Speaker 1: them to get that information to you? Gota my office 383 00:24:57,359 --> 00:25:01,199 Speaker 1: at seven oh six or eight f eight seven, or 384 00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:04,800 Speaker 1: email me at shaff Seals at Puttingham County Sheriff dot 385 00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:09,200 Speaker 1: org one or the other. There's obviously tipline on our 386 00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:12,560 Speaker 1: website which is putting Them County Sheriff dot Org. And 387 00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:16,040 Speaker 1: I promise you we're gonna look into it and respond 388 00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:19,919 Speaker 1: to it. More than likely I will be responding to 389 00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:37,760 Speaker 1: it personally. Sworn is produced by Tenderfoot TV in Atlanta. 390 00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:41,240 Speaker 1: Sworn is mixed and mastered by Resonate Recordings. If you're 391 00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:44,360 Speaker 1: in the market for podcast production, go to Resonate Recordings 392 00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:47,560 Speaker 1: dot com to get your first episode produced for free. 393 00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:50,760 Speaker 1: I'd personally like to say thank you to share Off 394 00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:53,080 Speaker 1: Seals for his time, and I wish you the best 395 00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:56,000 Speaker 1: of luck moving forward. I'd also like to thank you 396 00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:59,119 Speaker 1: the listeners for tuning in. We're currently working on several 397 00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:03,080 Speaker 1: new cases for upcoming episodes of Sworn. Each month we 398 00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:06,480 Speaker 1: will bring you a new multipart mini series exposing the 399 00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:11,680 Speaker 1: untold stories and the hard truths behind major cases, wrongful convictions, 400 00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:15,840 Speaker 1: controversial legislation, and much much more. Stay up to date 401 00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:19,120 Speaker 1: and subscribe to Sworn now on Apple Podcasts, and while 402 00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:22,199 Speaker 1: you're there, please rate and review Sworn. It helps us 403 00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:24,720 Speaker 1: move up in the charts and brings in new listeners. 404 00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:27,639 Speaker 1: Stay tuned right here in the coming weeks for a 405 00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:30,760 Speaker 1: sneak peak of what's coming next month on Sworn and 406 00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:34,760 Speaker 1: don't Forget. Our sister podcast, Up and Vanished, is approaching 407 00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:38,520 Speaker 1: its season one finale with only three main episodes left. 408 00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:42,240 Speaker 1: Subscribe and tune in too Up and Vanished every Monday. 409 00:26:42,359 --> 00:27:02,679 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. Guys, See you soon, s I see't 410 00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:11,160 Speaker 1: I see heep. Blood in the Water, Jarmy Johnny see 411 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:12,359 Speaker 1: Blood in the Water.