WEBVTT - Invention Classic: Chopsticks 0:00:07.360 --> 0:00:10.280 Hey, Welcome to Invention. My name is Robert Lamb and 0:00:10.320 --> 0:00:13.320 I'm Joe McCormick, and we're bringing you a classic episode 0:00:13.320 --> 0:00:17.000 of Invention. This is our episode on Chopsticks. Is the 0:00:17.000 --> 0:00:19.840 show old enough to have classics? I think so? Yeah. 0:00:19.880 --> 0:00:23.119 Either way, we are patting this podcast out. We're making 0:00:23.120 --> 0:00:25.799 it possible to put out, you know, some strong episodes 0:00:25.840 --> 0:00:28.120 in the new year and not have to scramble. And 0:00:28.160 --> 0:00:30.840 this is one that I really had a great time doing. 0:00:31.240 --> 0:00:33.960 One of the key sources for this that will discuss 0:00:33.960 --> 0:00:37.160 in the episode is a wonderful little book titled Chopsticks, 0:00:37.159 --> 0:00:40.479 A Cultural and Culinary History by Q. Edward Wang. I 0:00:40.560 --> 0:00:42.639 highly recommend checking that out if you were at all 0:00:42.720 --> 0:00:47.440 interested in Chinese culture, Chinese history, or just Chinese cuisine 0:00:47.440 --> 0:00:50.960 in general. So this is our classic episode on Chopsticks. 0:00:51.000 --> 0:00:56.920 We hope you enjoy. Welcome to Invention, a production of 0:00:56.960 --> 0:01:03.320 I Heart Radio. Hey, welcome to Invention. My name is 0:01:03.400 --> 0:01:08.200 Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. Robert, do you hate 0:01:08.440 --> 0:01:12.280 as much as I do? The stock scene from movies, 0:01:12.400 --> 0:01:18.760 TV shows, commercials. It's everywhere of the standard clueless, clumsy 0:01:18.959 --> 0:01:24.080 Caucasian American guy trying to use chopsticks and dropping food 0:01:24.160 --> 0:01:26.280 all over the place sometimes while a little like Blue 0:01:26.360 --> 0:01:29.240 de Blue cartoon music plays. I don't think I've really 0:01:29.280 --> 0:01:31.480 witnessed it recently, so it's kind of it's kind of 0:01:31.480 --> 0:01:33.640 fallen out of my mind a certain extent. I tend 0:01:33.680 --> 0:01:36.520 to think of, you know, scenes from Blade Runner or 0:01:36.560 --> 0:01:40.440 something where where the Harrison Ford character, uh definitely has 0:01:40.440 --> 0:01:43.080 his chop skip sticks skills down. You know. It's not 0:01:43.200 --> 0:01:46.440 that I don't believe that there are adults in America 0:01:46.480 --> 0:01:48.640 who don't know how to use chopsticks. I'm sure there are. 0:01:48.720 --> 0:01:50.840 I mean, people have different levels of experience, and it's 0:01:50.840 --> 0:01:53.120 probably not easy the first time you do it. Oh yeah, 0:01:53.120 --> 0:01:55.520 I'm sure they exist at the highest level of US government. 0:01:56.120 --> 0:02:01.080 But I just don't think that this is particularly hilarious, 0:02:01.200 --> 0:02:04.400 especially in like the twenty one century. I mean, this 0:02:04.480 --> 0:02:07.080 was a scene we were seeing in in TV shows 0:02:07.120 --> 0:02:10.919 in the nineteen eighties. It's on par with the scene 0:02:10.960 --> 0:02:17.760 where somebody goes to a sushi restaurant and they're like raw, yeah. Yeah. 0:02:17.800 --> 0:02:19.920 It seems like at this point you would be you 0:02:19.919 --> 0:02:22.520 would be on board with with sushi or or you 0:02:22.520 --> 0:02:24.840 would just not be in the sushi restaurant to begin with, 0:02:25.040 --> 0:02:28.320 and you would certainly be at least, you know, halfway 0:02:28.320 --> 0:02:30.960 competent with a pair of chopsticks. Even if you're not competent, 0:02:31.120 --> 0:02:33.120 it's just a thing that you have to learn how 0:02:33.120 --> 0:02:35.200 to do. It's like watching people learn how to ride 0:02:35.200 --> 0:02:38.680 a bicycle. It's just not particularly funny. Why was this 0:02:38.760 --> 0:02:43.040 once a source of much cultural hilarity in the United States? 0:02:43.560 --> 0:02:46.600 I imagine it was also pretty hilarious from the other 0:02:46.639 --> 0:02:49.720 perspective to you know, it's a bumbling Westerns trying to 0:02:49.720 --> 0:02:53.680 to use this very precise method of of of manipulating food. 0:02:53.880 --> 0:02:57.200 I have to admit that I love chopsticks and a 0:02:57.360 --> 0:03:02.680 kind of embarrassing naive way. Like one of my favorite 0:03:02.760 --> 0:03:08.680 things about about eating several different kinds of Asian food 0:03:08.919 --> 0:03:11.760 is using chopsticks to eat them. I love like Chinese 0:03:11.840 --> 0:03:14.960 noodles with chopsticks. I love eating sushi with chopsticks, though 0:03:15.000 --> 0:03:17.359 sometimes I just eat sushi with my hands as as 0:03:17.440 --> 0:03:22.040 you often do. Acceptable. Yeah, um, but I love using chopsticks. 0:03:22.080 --> 0:03:24.480 I love it almost as much as I love the 0:03:24.520 --> 0:03:27.960 food itself. But I have found very strangely that I 0:03:28.000 --> 0:03:33.239 have a psychological block against using chopsticks on ethnic cuisines 0:03:33.560 --> 0:03:37.640 with which they do not originally pair. So I love 0:03:37.760 --> 0:03:40.600 using chopsticks, and I want any excuse to use them. 0:03:40.600 --> 0:03:43.360 But I've tried to eat spaghetti with them with like 0:03:43.520 --> 0:03:46.280 tornato basil sauce, and it does not work. It is 0:03:46.440 --> 0:03:49.880 psychologically revolting. But this is all ridiculous when you start 0:03:49.880 --> 0:03:54.000 getting into the deeper history of of any nation's cuisine. 0:03:54.000 --> 0:03:56.840 I mean, where do you think those those noodles in 0:03:57.000 --> 0:04:00.000 spaghetti and Italian spaghetti came from. That's a good point. 0:04:00.080 --> 0:04:03.000 They came from the East. They came from the land 0:04:03.000 --> 0:04:04.480 of chopsticks. And of course, one of the things we're 0:04:04.480 --> 0:04:06.280 gonna get gonna get into in this episode is that 0:04:06.400 --> 0:04:09.560 you know, there was a time before widespread chopstick usage, 0:04:09.880 --> 0:04:13.600 uh in in Asia. There was a time before widespread 0:04:14.120 --> 0:04:18.080 noodle and dumpling consumption in Asia. And it's all part 0:04:18.080 --> 0:04:21.080 of the history of of of how we eat our 0:04:21.120 --> 0:04:24.039 food and what we eat. Right, So today's episode is 0:04:24.080 --> 0:04:28.960 going to be about chopstick technology, right. Uh So, everyone 0:04:29.000 --> 0:04:30.800 I think is familiar with chopsticks. We don't have to 0:04:30.800 --> 0:04:34.200 really explain these too much. But there's two of them. 0:04:34.240 --> 0:04:36.599 There's two of them, there's sticks. There're sticks. Use your 0:04:36.640 --> 0:04:40.640 manual dexterity to manipulate food with them. And you know, 0:04:40.680 --> 0:04:43.840 they may be made out of wood, bamboo, or they 0:04:43.839 --> 0:04:47.359 may be made out of metal or ceramic plastic in 0:04:47.400 --> 0:04:51.159 some cases. But it's it's a pretty simple concept and 0:04:51.240 --> 0:04:54.360 it it does allow an amazing amount of precision. I 0:04:54.400 --> 0:04:58.440 remember at an early age, I was really impressed by chopsticks. Uh, 0:04:58.520 --> 0:05:01.159 in part because know, we would go to little, little 0:05:01.240 --> 0:05:04.880 Chinese restaurants in the in the States, and when my 0:05:04.920 --> 0:05:07.919 family was living in Canada, one of my father's coworkers, 0:05:08.400 --> 0:05:13.680 Um was a Chinese Canadian physician, and he would use chopsticks, 0:05:13.680 --> 0:05:15.880 and he would let us use chopsticks. And there was 0:05:15.920 --> 0:05:18.360 a story he told when he was a child. If 0:05:18.400 --> 0:05:21.560 he was if he misbehaved, his mother would dump a 0:05:21.680 --> 0:05:25.160 small bowl of uncooked rice out under the table, give 0:05:25.240 --> 0:05:26.800 him a pair of chopsticks, and then he would have 0:05:26.880 --> 0:05:30.719 to um move each grain of rice with the chopsticks 0:05:31.200 --> 0:05:35.520 back into the bowl. That is amazing because that sounds 0:05:35.520 --> 0:05:38.520 like a punishment straight out of a fairy tale, doesn't it. 0:05:38.560 --> 0:05:42.360 That's like a fair that's like a Cinderella type punishment. 0:05:42.600 --> 0:05:46.520 But chopsticks, they are exactly the tool you would want 0:05:46.520 --> 0:05:48.920 to use to to carry out this task. I mean 0:05:49.320 --> 0:05:52.800 they they're just so precise they even beat human fingers 0:05:52.800 --> 0:05:55.239 in many instances. If not in precision, then at least 0:05:55.240 --> 0:05:59.800 intact right because it allows you to. Because so much 0:05:59.800 --> 0:06:02.920 of our are our our use of utensils, it's about 0:06:03.000 --> 0:06:06.200 how do you eat the food effectively, but also in 0:06:06.240 --> 0:06:11.520 a way that doesn't insult the people that you're eating with. Likewise, 0:06:11.520 --> 0:06:15.240 if you're eating hot food, which has been popular in 0:06:15.320 --> 0:06:19.520 human culture, um it it, it behooves you to be 0:06:19.560 --> 0:06:22.000 able to handle that food without burning your fingers, and 0:06:22.040 --> 0:06:24.200 chopsticks allow you to do that. You know, when it 0:06:24.200 --> 0:06:26.720 comes to picking up individual grains of rice one at 0:06:26.720 --> 0:06:29.719 a time, I found out that there actually is a 0:06:29.800 --> 0:06:33.760 Guinness World Record category for speed in picking up and 0:06:33.839 --> 0:06:37.560 eating individual grains of rice with chopsticks. That's a that's 0:06:37.560 --> 0:06:39.800 a thing you can compete in. So you can go 0:06:39.920 --> 0:06:41.920 the like number of hot dogs in a minute thing, 0:06:42.040 --> 0:06:43.600 or you can go the number of grains of rice 0:06:43.640 --> 0:06:48.360 in a minute thing. Um And apparently the current holder 0:06:48.520 --> 0:06:54.440 of this world record is somebody named Silvio Saba in Milan, Italy, 0:06:54.520 --> 0:06:56.560 who was able to pick up and eat twenty five 0:06:56.600 --> 0:07:01.840 individual grains of rice with chopsticks in one minute in February, which, 0:07:01.839 --> 0:07:04.640 actually that sounds kind of I feel like that record 0:07:04.680 --> 0:07:07.240 could be beaten. I'm just imagining it. And maybe so 0:07:07.360 --> 0:07:10.320 maybe you're the man to take up the chopsticks and 0:07:10.400 --> 0:07:12.040 give it a try. I mean, surely you can get 0:07:12.040 --> 0:07:14.160 down to like a second and a half per per 0:07:14.240 --> 0:07:15.920 rice grain, right. I don't know who are we to 0:07:16.040 --> 0:07:19.040 out the Guinness Book of World Records, though, Joe. You know, 0:07:19.160 --> 0:07:22.520 one thing is certain though, When I'm using chopsticks, I 0:07:22.560 --> 0:07:25.280 often think about I mean just always impressing these are great, 0:07:25.320 --> 0:07:27.440 and I do feel that temptation to want to use 0:07:27.480 --> 0:07:30.560 them on other foods. And really about the only foods 0:07:31.040 --> 0:07:33.280 that I when I think about it, that they don't 0:07:33.320 --> 0:07:36.560 make sense for so much are foods that require a 0:07:36.640 --> 0:07:39.320 great deal of cutting and carving. Uh. You know, so 0:07:39.560 --> 0:07:43.000 I'm thinking, like, if you're eating a steak, uh, you 0:07:43.000 --> 0:07:44.920 would need a knife. Now I guess you could. You 0:07:44.920 --> 0:07:47.400 could use a knife and chopsticks, and that would that 0:07:47.400 --> 0:07:50.600 would work. But for the most part, chopsticks are gonna 0:07:50.720 --> 0:07:53.360 are gonna get you there with just about any food. 0:07:53.720 --> 0:07:56.440 You know, when you mentioned pairing a knife with chopsticks. 0:07:56.680 --> 0:08:00.240 There at least once was a product called work and 0:08:00.320 --> 0:08:03.440 Knife chopsticks. Have you seen this. There's like a a 0:08:03.480 --> 0:08:06.960 promo obnoxious comedy promo video that used to go around 0:08:07.000 --> 0:08:11.160 the internet. Actually, it was a video where hilarity ensues 0:08:11.280 --> 0:08:15.960 when some Caucasian gentleman is trying to eat something with chopsticks. 0:08:16.200 --> 0:08:19.239 He just keeps dropping it all over himself and it's like, oh, 0:08:19.280 --> 0:08:21.920 there was There's got to be a better way. And 0:08:22.000 --> 0:08:24.160 the better way is that the other side of these 0:08:24.240 --> 0:08:27.120 chopsticks are a fork and a knife. Oh so you 0:08:27.160 --> 0:08:28.680 can flip them around. See at first I thought you 0:08:28.720 --> 0:08:31.280 meant that you're using them like chopsticks, but then it 0:08:31.320 --> 0:08:33.200 has a tiny fork and a tiny knife on the 0:08:33.320 --> 0:08:36.679 end because it's just you flip them around. Okay, uh no, yes, 0:08:36.760 --> 0:08:39.160 so it's stick party in front, fork and knife business 0:08:39.160 --> 0:08:41.520 and back. And actually they would like they would sort 0:08:41.559 --> 0:08:44.600 of hook together to make hinged chopsticks, which are not 0:08:44.679 --> 0:08:48.200 exactly traditional chopsticks. Okay, well that's not the worst invention, 0:08:48.240 --> 0:08:51.880 I suppose. Now, the promo video is really obnoxious, but 0:08:51.960 --> 0:08:54.040 the invention is fine, though it looks like it's been 0:08:54.040 --> 0:08:56.480 discontinued or at least from the original cellar as far 0:08:56.559 --> 0:09:00.319 as I could tell. Chopsticks themselves, however, of course, are 0:09:00.360 --> 0:09:03.280 still very much in production. They have not been discontinued. 0:09:03.320 --> 0:09:07.120 There's no sign of chopsticks going away anytime soon. In fact, 0:09:07.160 --> 0:09:09.840 I think I read about a problem with billions of 0:09:09.880 --> 0:09:13.679 disposable chopsticks being used every year. Yeah, yea. If anything, 0:09:13.720 --> 0:09:16.840 that the big take home is if you like using chopsticks, 0:09:16.840 --> 0:09:20.640 if you find yourself regularly using chopsticks, invest in a 0:09:20.679 --> 0:09:23.960 in a set of chopsticks, a mobile set that you 0:09:24.000 --> 0:09:26.760 can carry around and use it home and cut down 0:09:26.880 --> 0:09:30.680 on the on the disposable chopsticks. Now where did chopsticks 0:09:30.760 --> 0:09:34.160 come from? Well, they came from China and uh and 0:09:34.440 --> 0:09:37.640 as as we were talking about with our our researcher 0:09:37.960 --> 0:09:41.600 for this program, Scott Benjamin, Uh, they popped up prior 0:09:41.840 --> 0:09:46.199 to b C those some sources say they've been around 0:09:46.200 --> 0:09:50.679 for nearly nine thousand years. But uh, this is this 0:09:50.760 --> 0:09:53.920 is as cooking utensils, a way of moving ingredients around 0:09:53.920 --> 0:09:56.680 in on hot walk for instance. But when it comes 0:09:56.720 --> 0:10:00.560 to the use of chopsticks at the dinner table or 0:10:00.840 --> 0:10:04.439 you know, as a means of bringing food to your mouth. Um, 0:10:04.760 --> 0:10:08.000 sometimes you see it stated that we're really looking at 0:10:08.040 --> 0:10:11.640 more four hundred c as A as A as A 0:10:11.640 --> 0:10:15.360 as kind of a rough, very rough time stamp for 0:10:15.480 --> 0:10:18.720 when it really began to become more popular and began 0:10:18.760 --> 0:10:22.000 to spread culturally, the idea that these are utensils that 0:10:22.040 --> 0:10:25.120 should be used to consume food as well. Now, as 0:10:25.160 --> 0:10:28.320 we'll get into this, this is not like a very 0:10:28.400 --> 0:10:30.840 this is not a super firm time stamp. It's not 0:10:30.920 --> 0:10:34.120 like you will not find people eating with chopsticks before 0:10:34.200 --> 0:10:36.760 that point. But this seems to be where the Levey 0:10:36.800 --> 0:10:40.120 really breaks on the idea. People do like to come 0:10:40.200 --> 0:10:42.640 up with origins stories for things, though, even when there 0:10:42.720 --> 0:10:45.200 isn't a clear origin story. Well, that's often part of 0:10:45.400 --> 0:10:47.240 the fun, right, is that there's not a there's not 0:10:47.280 --> 0:10:51.240 an actual inventor, but there's a mythic character that had 0:10:51.320 --> 0:10:53.640 some sort of role in the invention, some sort of 0:10:54.040 --> 0:10:58.319 you know, cultural hero who stole fire from the gods, etcetera. Exactly. 0:10:58.440 --> 0:11:00.880 So we were both looking at a book, Robert, I 0:11:00.880 --> 0:11:03.560 think you actually read the whole book. Yeah, it's a 0:11:03.559 --> 0:11:06.120 it's a short read, actually, something like two hundred and 0:11:06.200 --> 0:11:09.840 something pages. It's a book by Q. Edward Wang that 0:11:10.040 --> 0:11:15.040 is called Chopsticks, a Cultural and Culinary History, polished from 0:11:15.040 --> 0:11:19.160 Cambridge University Press. And Wine points out that a common 0:11:19.240 --> 0:11:22.840 Chinese legend tells the story of how chopsticks were first 0:11:22.880 --> 0:11:26.880 invented by Da You, founder of the Shah dynasty which 0:11:27.640 --> 0:11:30.719 ruled from twenty one hundred to sixteen hundred b c. E. 0:11:31.360 --> 0:11:33.720 And I've poked around for a couple of versions of 0:11:33.720 --> 0:11:36.880 this legend. Basically the story goes like this, Da You 0:11:37.400 --> 0:11:41.320 was the figure credited with fighting the Great Flood of 0:11:41.520 --> 0:11:45.360 Chinese history and mythology by the use of dredging in 0:11:45.440 --> 0:11:50.200 the riverbeds and construction of irrigation canals to divert water flow. Now, Robert, 0:11:50.240 --> 0:11:54.360 you've talked about the Chinese Great Flood legends on podcasts before. Yeah, 0:11:54.480 --> 0:11:57.920 and You definitely comes up in in that episode. And 0:11:58.000 --> 0:12:00.680 because he's a he's a true cultural here in Chinese 0:12:00.720 --> 0:12:05.400 mythology and the um. If I am remembering correctly, the 0:12:05.400 --> 0:12:10.240 the knowledge to to to overcome the flood was was 0:12:10.280 --> 0:12:16.120 actually stolen or obtained from the gods, I think by 0:12:16.120 --> 0:12:18.920 you his father uh and then you himself as the 0:12:18.920 --> 0:12:21.360 one who really brings it to the people. I think 0:12:21.360 --> 0:12:25.520 that's correct. But so you eventually succeeds in defeating the 0:12:25.559 --> 0:12:29.000 Great flood, and this made him emperor and founder of 0:12:29.000 --> 0:12:32.320 the Shah dynasty. But there are lots of stories and 0:12:32.400 --> 0:12:36.319 legends about how much he sacrificed personally and how tirelessly 0:12:36.360 --> 0:12:40.080 he worked on this project uh to to defeat the floodwaters. 0:12:40.559 --> 0:12:43.920 And one of these legends is that day had at 0:12:43.920 --> 0:12:46.760 one point had some meat sizzling in a walk, but 0:12:46.880 --> 0:12:49.280 he was in such a hurry to fight the flood 0:12:49.520 --> 0:12:51.320 that he couldn't sit there and wait for the meat 0:12:51.320 --> 0:12:53.959 to cool down enough to handle and eat. So he 0:12:54.200 --> 0:12:56.240 got a pair of twigs and he used them to 0:12:56.320 --> 0:12:58.960 pick up the hot pieces of meat and hurry along 0:12:58.960 --> 0:13:02.480 his meal so he could back to work. But clearly 0:13:02.520 --> 0:13:05.760 this is just a legend, but still there it does illustrate, 0:13:05.800 --> 0:13:10.120 like the basic clever idea that the novelty of using 0:13:10.240 --> 0:13:13.960 just some twigs some sticks, but using them, using just 0:13:14.120 --> 0:13:17.679 found objects, but using them in an inventive way, uh 0:13:17.840 --> 0:13:20.800 that the changes the way you do things. And this 0:13:20.920 --> 0:13:24.600 is this is likely exactly how chopsticks emerged in just 0:13:24.640 --> 0:13:30.360 the darkness of prehistory. Is the use of found twigs um. 0:13:30.440 --> 0:13:33.960 You know, maybe the twigs of the manipulated in some fashion, 0:13:34.440 --> 0:13:36.160 but for the most part, just a couple of found 0:13:36.160 --> 0:13:40.200 sticks that are used to manipulate food inside of a 0:13:40.240 --> 0:13:43.079 cooking pot. Or also the use of fire sticks, which 0:13:43.120 --> 0:13:47.240 would just be uh, chopsticks that are used for moving 0:13:48.120 --> 0:13:51.400 burning wood or coal around. Now, one thing that I 0:13:51.400 --> 0:13:55.800 think is interesting about chopsticks that is different from the 0:13:55.960 --> 0:13:58.880 use of say a fork or a knife, or even 0:13:59.280 --> 0:14:02.480 I mean sort of like a spoon, but also somewhat 0:14:02.480 --> 0:14:05.760 different from a spoon, is that chopsticks in a way 0:14:05.880 --> 0:14:09.640 function sort of like extensions of the fingers. You know, 0:14:09.720 --> 0:14:13.679 they do a similar pinching action that you can do 0:14:13.800 --> 0:14:16.760 with your thumb and index finger, um, but they you know, 0:14:17.080 --> 0:14:19.760 they extend the fingers farther. They can handle hot stuff 0:14:19.760 --> 0:14:21.960 without getting grease on the fingers, and all that, they 0:14:21.960 --> 0:14:24.320 can reach into soup and pull out noodles, that they 0:14:24.360 --> 0:14:26.960 can do all that kind of stuff. But they in 0:14:27.000 --> 0:14:31.280 a way feel like a more natural extension of the pinching, 0:14:31.360 --> 0:14:35.520 grasping action of the skeleton itself. They feel like more 0:14:35.600 --> 0:14:38.000 like they emerge out of the schema of the human 0:14:38.080 --> 0:14:40.520 body than say a knife, which you know, you don't 0:14:40.520 --> 0:14:43.200 have a knife, and you don't have any sharp fingers, 0:14:43.720 --> 0:14:46.480 you don't have a fork. Really, there's no stabbing sharp 0:14:46.600 --> 0:14:50.240 tynes on your hand, and there's just nothing analogous to 0:14:50.360 --> 0:14:52.400 a knife and a fork on your body. Yeah, I 0:14:52.440 --> 0:14:55.200 mean this makes me realize that in grant granted, I 0:14:55.240 --> 0:14:57.920 probably I definitely use fork and knife more than I 0:14:58.000 --> 0:15:00.120 use chopsticks. And I am not, by any mean as 0:15:00.160 --> 0:15:04.520 a you know, an expert practitioner with chopsticks, But I 0:15:04.560 --> 0:15:07.560 do feel like I am far more likely to bumble 0:15:07.640 --> 0:15:10.160 and drop a fork, knife, or spoon than I am 0:15:10.240 --> 0:15:13.720 to bumble and drop my chopsticks. Like they're the chopsticks, 0:15:13.720 --> 0:15:16.200 to your point, are just more an extension of your 0:15:16.200 --> 0:15:18.680 body when you're using them. Now, obviously, if you're looking 0:15:18.720 --> 0:15:24.000 for ancient artifacts ancient evidence of chopsticks, uh, just standard 0:15:24.040 --> 0:15:26.760 twigs aren't going to stick around very well, right, So 0:15:26.920 --> 0:15:30.720 you'd you'd be looking probably for chopsticks or indications that 0:15:30.760 --> 0:15:35.320 chopsticks were made out of other materials. Right. So for instance, um, 0:15:35.600 --> 0:15:39.200 you will find um like bronze chopsticks or what are 0:15:39.240 --> 0:15:41.400 believed to be chopsticks in the tombs of the of 0:15:41.760 --> 0:15:45.400 the ruins of Yin in Henan Province in Central China. 0:15:45.720 --> 0:15:48.560 Because essentially what we're talking about here is a Neolithic invention. 0:15:49.240 --> 0:15:51.400 Like you said, the twigs are not going to stick around. 0:15:51.680 --> 0:15:55.600 There is evidence that suggests five thousand BC as a 0:15:55.600 --> 0:15:59.240 as a possibility for early archaeological evidence of chopsticks. So 0:15:59.280 --> 0:16:02.600 I've also read that some of these bones sticks from 0:16:02.600 --> 0:16:06.440 this time and earlier may also be interpreted as hairpins 0:16:06.600 --> 0:16:10.200 or or tools of another sort. Uh. But this is 0:16:10.240 --> 0:16:14.040 often a problem with like Neolithic technology, is it's not 0:16:14.160 --> 0:16:16.880 quite so clear what you're really looking at. It might 0:16:16.960 --> 0:16:20.400 be clear that an artifact is not naturally occurring and 0:16:20.440 --> 0:16:22.960 it was shaped in some way, but what was it 0:16:23.080 --> 0:16:26.360 used for not always clear. Because this is ultimately one 0:16:26.400 --> 0:16:29.040 of the confounding things about chopsticks is that it is 0:16:29.080 --> 0:16:33.560 a relatively simple concept. Uh. You don't need anything beyond 0:16:33.760 --> 0:16:37.720 Neolithic technology to pull it off. And yet you don't 0:16:37.760 --> 0:16:43.400 see it emerging independently in other cultures. Uh. You know, ultimately, 0:16:43.880 --> 0:16:45.960 you just don't see it taking off everywhere, but it 0:16:46.000 --> 0:16:48.120 but it is a it's a cultural difference, and you 0:16:48.160 --> 0:16:53.200 see similar cultural differences in tool use among Chimpanzees, for instance. Uh, 0:16:53.320 --> 0:16:56.320 nothing so grand as as chopstick used, you will not 0:16:56.360 --> 0:17:00.400 find chimpanzees inventing the chopsticks, but you will see similar 0:17:00.720 --> 0:17:04.639 similar situation in things that are unessential behavior. You do 0:17:04.720 --> 0:17:07.320 not have to invent the chopstick in order to eat 0:17:07.680 --> 0:17:11.600 and survive and develop all the other technologies that uh 0:17:11.640 --> 0:17:15.560 that a culture may develop. Uh. But but but it 0:17:15.680 --> 0:17:18.159 is curious how we we see the chopsticks emerge in 0:17:18.280 --> 0:17:21.400 China and spread out from China, but they don't independently 0:17:21.440 --> 0:17:25.240 emerge elsewhere. Now, as far as evidence that twigs were 0:17:25.280 --> 0:17:28.000 commonly used just you know, snapped off branches and twigs 0:17:28.040 --> 0:17:30.960 were commonly used for chopsticks, Whang in his book sites 0:17:31.080 --> 0:17:33.679 literary evidence from the ancient world that it was a 0:17:33.720 --> 0:17:36.439 common practice by say the third or fourth century b 0:17:36.560 --> 0:17:40.040 c e. To snap pieces off of the lower branches 0:17:40.080 --> 0:17:43.480 of a tree and use them for chopsticks. And for example, 0:17:43.520 --> 0:17:46.160 he cites a passage from jun Z who lived three 0:17:46.240 --> 0:17:49.240 forty to forty five b c. Uh And and jen 0:17:49.320 --> 0:17:52.440 Z says this in service of illustrating an unrelated point. 0:17:52.560 --> 0:17:54.720 So he's just like sort of using an analogy here. 0:17:54.760 --> 0:17:57.800 But he says, if you look up at a forest 0:17:57.920 --> 0:18:00.159 from the foot of a hill. The bigger tree is 0:18:00.200 --> 0:18:03.560 appear no taller than chopsticks, and yet no one hoping 0:18:03.600 --> 0:18:06.920 to find chopsticks is likely to go picking among them. 0:18:07.000 --> 0:18:10.879 It is simply that the height obscures their natural dimensions. 0:18:10.920 --> 0:18:14.000 So he's not really talking about chopsticks in this passage, 0:18:14.040 --> 0:18:16.119 but it just sort of makes passing reference to the 0:18:16.160 --> 0:18:19.879 fact that you might go quote picking chopsticks. So it 0:18:19.920 --> 0:18:24.040 becomes difficult to really like nail down when people started 0:18:24.119 --> 0:18:27.520 using chopsticks in cooking. So we have in this an 0:18:27.600 --> 0:18:32.240 ancient tool, an ancient utensil for the preparation of food. 0:18:33.000 --> 0:18:36.320 The question then is how does it really leave the kitchen? 0:18:36.320 --> 0:18:38.600 How does it go from being just something that you 0:18:38.760 --> 0:18:42.200 use in the production of food to becoming the primary 0:18:43.119 --> 0:18:48.000 means of consuming said food, Because, for instance, many of 0:18:48.040 --> 0:18:50.320 us use a ladle in the kitchen. You know, one 0:18:50.359 --> 0:18:53.399 of those you know, those deep seated uh spoons that 0:18:53.520 --> 0:18:56.160 that are that are just reladling out soup. You probably 0:18:56.200 --> 0:18:58.320 don't use one at the dinner table. You probably don't 0:18:58.359 --> 0:19:03.359 use it to drink soup. I eat with a spider strainer. Um, 0:19:03.960 --> 0:19:07.159 But that's that's another example. Yeah, you could technically do it, 0:19:07.200 --> 0:19:11.880 but you probably don't. Um. Speaking of spoon's, spoons and soup, though, 0:19:12.359 --> 0:19:14.280 Wayne gets into this and he points out that the 0:19:14.359 --> 0:19:18.800 spoon was actually the most important eating implement for people 0:19:18.880 --> 0:19:22.679 in ancient East and Southeast Asia. I can see that. 0:19:22.720 --> 0:19:24.240 I mean, the spoon is going to be common to 0:19:24.320 --> 0:19:27.399 pretty much every culture, right because it is essentially just 0:19:27.560 --> 0:19:30.960 a retaining receptacle. I mean you can move pretty much 0:19:30.960 --> 0:19:34.240 any kind of food. You could eat steak with the spoon, right, Yeah, 0:19:34.240 --> 0:19:37.080 it's I Actually you've given the choice between a fork 0:19:37.119 --> 0:19:40.080 and a spoon. I rarely picked the fork. I don't 0:19:40.119 --> 0:19:42.880 eat a lot of food that requires a stabbing fork anymore. 0:19:43.320 --> 0:19:45.560 Uh So I'm more than happy with the spoon. Just 0:19:45.560 --> 0:19:47.120 give me the spoon. I don't even want to look 0:19:47.119 --> 0:19:49.160 at the fork. The anything I can do with the fork, 0:19:49.200 --> 0:19:50.800 you can probably do with the spoon, And then of 0:19:50.800 --> 0:19:52.440 course I can do it even better with the chopsticks. 0:19:52.920 --> 0:19:55.360 But um, but the spoon was the most important eating 0:19:55.400 --> 0:19:58.840 an implement for for people in ancient East and Southeast Asia. 0:19:58.960 --> 0:20:02.399 And this is backed up by both archaeological and textual accounts. 0:20:02.840 --> 0:20:05.160 And there are many reasons, some of these that we've 0:20:05.200 --> 0:20:08.840 just hit on here. Just the ultimate practical practicality of 0:20:08.880 --> 0:20:13.120 the spoon. But but something else that Whining points out 0:20:13.600 --> 0:20:17.040 is that from antiquity up to the tenth century, millet 0:20:17.480 --> 0:20:21.120 was the dominant grain cereal in North China, Korea, and 0:20:21.400 --> 0:20:26.200 parts of Japan. And this particular substances best cooked into 0:20:26.200 --> 0:20:29.600 a thick gruel that that demands the attention of spoons 0:20:29.680 --> 0:20:32.320 rather than any other form of utensil. So, yeah, try 0:20:32.440 --> 0:20:36.800 to imagine eating like oatmeal with chopsticks. You could do it, 0:20:36.800 --> 0:20:40.000 It's just not the best thing to use, right, And 0:20:40.040 --> 0:20:41.760 you might say, well, what's the different how about rice? 0:20:41.840 --> 0:20:44.760 How's rice difference? What rice clumps up? Rice is different? 0:20:44.800 --> 0:20:46.840 I mean, if you are eating rice that you cannot 0:20:46.840 --> 0:20:50.040 eat with chopsticks, you're probably eating the wrong rice. Well 0:20:50.080 --> 0:20:54.080 that's not necessarily true. I mean, so like sometimes bosmati rice, 0:20:54.119 --> 0:20:57.280 which is wonderful, doesn't clump together the same way like 0:20:57.320 --> 0:21:00.639 a jasmine rice would. But yeah, I guess what I 0:21:00.640 --> 0:21:02.520 had in mind when I was insulting rice was like 0:21:02.600 --> 0:21:07.960 par boiled rice, which maintains very distinct individual grains and 0:21:08.200 --> 0:21:11.719 is yeah right, and uh and boiling is key here 0:21:11.720 --> 0:21:15.480 because this was the age of boiling uh stews and soups. 0:21:15.760 --> 0:21:19.119 The this is what you ate chopsticks. They crept in 0:21:19.240 --> 0:21:21.720 is merely a supporting utensil that you might use to 0:21:21.840 --> 0:21:24.160 like stir around the depths to grab a few things 0:21:24.200 --> 0:21:26.440 out of the depths of your super stew. But for 0:21:26.480 --> 0:21:28.800 the most part you're gonna have to depend on that spoon. 0:21:29.440 --> 0:21:33.760 By the tenth century, weighing rights, wheat becomes the primary grain, 0:21:34.040 --> 0:21:36.520 and so you get wheat noodles, you get wheat dumplings, 0:21:36.560 --> 0:21:39.880 and then chopsticks becoming extremely important because these are these 0:21:39.920 --> 0:21:43.600 make it far easier to manipulate those noodles or or 0:21:43.680 --> 0:21:46.639 dumplings if you've ever tried to eat, especially noodles with 0:21:46.680 --> 0:21:50.640 a spoon. But even a dumpling can become a complete 0:21:50.640 --> 0:21:53.119 comedy of errors if you're because of dumpling contend to 0:21:53.160 --> 0:21:55.560 be a little slippery and you're trying to like balance 0:21:55.600 --> 0:21:58.040 it on the spoon. No, you're better off grabbing it 0:21:58.080 --> 0:22:01.000 with the chopsticks. And then from the eleven and century onward, 0:22:01.040 --> 0:22:05.120 he writes that rice, of course becomes increasingly popular. Uh 0:22:05.160 --> 0:22:08.240 and since rice clumps, chopsticks can be used a great 0:22:08.280 --> 0:22:10.840 effect with them. Oh yeah, And then and then in 0:22:10.920 --> 0:22:14.280 terms of of boiling well. By the third century, he 0:22:14.320 --> 0:22:16.640 writes that you by this point you had cooking oils 0:22:16.760 --> 0:22:19.840 thanks to the millstone. That that allows you to you know, 0:22:19.880 --> 0:22:22.240