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Speaker 1: Climb Stories with Nancy Grace on a location of your emergency.

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Speaker 1: Uh yeah, I'm worried about my wife and kids because

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Speaker 1: they left to go to New York and I haven't

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Speaker 1: been able to get in touch work out. Okay, where

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Speaker 1: they were going to New York? What's the license light

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Speaker 1: on the car? Excuse me? What's the license light on

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Speaker 1: the car? I wanted to gaping? What's who's the car

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Speaker 1: registered to? It's a registered to my wife's name, Jennifer

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Speaker 1: Doulos name for me, Dulos d u l o els

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Speaker 1: Jennifer g E N I A F E R. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: hard day birth. It's September twenty seven, nineteen sixty eight.

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Speaker 1: They were jogging with our baby. Feakink. Okay, what kind

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Speaker 1: of hold on? Hold on? What kind of car were

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Speaker 1: they driven? The rain Drower black two sixteen Black land

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Speaker 1: Rower rain Drower. A mother of five goes missing. The

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Speaker 1: days are ticking by investigators searching the husband's four point

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Speaker 1: three million dollar mansion to no avail. Where is Jennifer Dulos.

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Speaker 1: I'm Nancy Grace. This is crime Stories. You just heard

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Speaker 1: part of a nine one one call where the husband

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Speaker 1: is calling police fotus Duelos, the husband, and this is

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Speaker 1: what we know. She Jennifer Dulos, drops her children off

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Speaker 1: at school. She's never seen again, her car found abandoned.

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Speaker 1: But why, who, what, where, why and when? With me

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Speaker 1: an all star panel. Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University, author

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Speaker 1: of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, Professor Joseph Scott Morgan,

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Speaker 1: veteran Atlanta prosecutor, Kenya Johnson Psychologists joining us out of

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Speaker 1: New York doctor Patricia Saunders. Right now to syndicated talk

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Speaker 1: show host Dave Mac. Dave, I want to start at

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Speaker 1: the beginning. Where did she go missing? When did she

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Speaker 1: go missing? She dropped their children off at eight am.

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Speaker 1: The next thing we know is that she missed an

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Speaker 1: eleven am appointment. At twelve noon, the cleaning lady came

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Speaker 1: by and there was nobody home. So the police have

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Speaker 1: tightened the timeline down to the last time. Woa, whoa, whoa,

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Speaker 1: Dave Mac, Sorry, but the minutes are ticking by. I've

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Speaker 1: got to isolate something. You just said, she dropped the

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Speaker 1: children off at school eight am. And let me just

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Speaker 1: tell you, these people aren't slouch as they live in

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Speaker 1: a very upscale area. Possibly one of the most expensive

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Speaker 1: areas outside of nine o two one zero. It's around

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Speaker 1: the New Canaan area of Connecticut. And I learned living

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Speaker 1: in New York that all the rich people would leave

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Speaker 1: after work and take a train to New Canaan. I

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Speaker 1: mean the really, really wealthy people. So I can't identify

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Speaker 1: where the woman was living. The husband was living in

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Speaker 1: a four point three million dollar mansion, but they had

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Speaker 1: split up. Long story short, this is where I'm going

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Speaker 1: with this. Dave Mac eight Am to eleven AM with Me,

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Speaker 1: Dave Max syndicated talk show host Jessica Morgan. I need

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Speaker 1: you on this one. You know, when I'm up making

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Speaker 1: a cup of hot tea first thing in the morning

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Speaker 1: at about five AM, I do not expect a kidnap

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Speaker 1: to go down. What I'm saying is, I've been prosecuting

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Speaker 1: for many, many years, and it's much more unlikely for

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Speaker 1: a violent crime to occur first thing in the morning.

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Speaker 1: Now this is just anecdotal for me, but it's rare

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Speaker 1: when you see a kidnap or a murderer or a

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Speaker 1: violent crime occur first thing in the morning. What is

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Speaker 1: that I say? Um, I felt perfectly perfectly safe going

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Speaker 1: out in hand delivering subpoenas first thing in the morning,

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Speaker 1: because all the dopers would still be asleep like vampires.

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Speaker 1: So what is it that the crimes do happen? But

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Speaker 1: it's very rare first thing in the morning. Yeah, you're right, Nancy.

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Speaker 1: I mean even even swat teams and you know, drug

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Speaker 1: task forth like you had stated, they will, they will

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Speaker 1: go and serve warrants at these violent offenders homes generally

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Speaker 1: at that period of time because you know these people

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Speaker 1: are not going to be out of the bed by

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Speaker 1: that time. Oh oh h w l no, because they've

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Speaker 1: been up all night long, breaking the law, selling dough,

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Speaker 1: driving around town, trying to steal things an arm rob mmmmm.

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Speaker 1: You can set up a whole battering ram outside inside

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Speaker 1: a doper's door at six am. They won't know anything's

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Speaker 1: going on. They're dead to the world till about three pm.

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Speaker 1: So can I just get a yes no on that,

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Speaker 1: Joe Scott, Yes, So, Dave Matt, you're telling me she

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Speaker 1: goes missing between eight and eleven. She e then wanted

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Speaker 1: to to disappear and get away from her alife mighty

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Speaker 1: early in the morning, or somebody took her, and we

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Speaker 1: don't have any signs of her clothes being packed, or

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Speaker 1: a bus ticket, a plane ticket, nothing like that, do

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Speaker 1: we Dave. When the police actually went to her rented

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Speaker 1: home in New Canean, they found traces of blood and

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Speaker 1: obvious signs that had been cleaned up so that the

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Speaker 1: maid could not realize what had happened. So I'm assuming

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Speaker 1: they used luminar or something along those lines to determine

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Speaker 1: that it was enough blood. Who is they who used luminar?

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry the police. The police all converged on her

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Speaker 1: home to try to find her. And again we've got

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Speaker 1: an eight am dropping off at school. By eleven am,

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Speaker 1: she misses an appointment, and by twelve noon the maid

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Speaker 1: says there's nobody here. When the police show up to investigate,

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Speaker 1: they find traces of blood at such a level that

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Speaker 1: they believe it had been cleaned up in an effort

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Speaker 1: to conceal it from the maid when she arrived at noon. Wow, okay,

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Speaker 1: that's a whole new lot on everything. Hold on, Jackie

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Speaker 1: Howard here in the studio was waving her arms saying,

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Speaker 1: didn't he say the husband that she was on her

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Speaker 1: way to New York? But wait a minute, something is off,

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Speaker 1: Jackie Have you actually played the nine on one call

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Speaker 1: from twenty seventeen, Yes, she has. Okay, why is there

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Speaker 1: a two seventeen nine one one call? What is that? Dave?

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Speaker 1: Matt Nancy? The Dulo's marriage was very contentious, and Jennifer

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Speaker 1: actually filed for divorce in two seventeen, and that's when

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Speaker 1: that call was made. She actually left with the kids

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Speaker 1: to New York. But she went to get away from him,

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Speaker 1: to hide from him, because she feared that when she

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Speaker 1: served the papers, according to what she wrote, that he

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Speaker 1: would be violent towards her. So she actually knew this

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Speaker 1: was going to happen. It was all filed with the court,

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Speaker 1: and when he called nine one one, he hadn't been

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Speaker 1: served the divorce papers yet. He didn't know where his

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Speaker 1: wife had gone. He got the divorce paper after that,

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Speaker 1: nine one one. Let's take a listen to more Jack.

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Speaker 1: I'm actually glad you played the twenty seventeen Let's listen

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Speaker 1: to more of it. Nine one one. When were they

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Speaker 1: supposed to be there? They were supposed to be there.

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Speaker 1: Less of your partment? Okay, is not answering. They're not

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Speaker 1: answering their sold Okay, what's yourself? One? Number six zero four,

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Speaker 1: no four, Okay, okay, you keep breaking up. Stay. I

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Speaker 1: need you to hold the phone to your face because

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Speaker 1: I keep hearing you really far away. For small a

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Speaker 1: zero six, so fourth, so for long for zero six.

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Speaker 1: That's my wife's cell phone number. Okay, who's the other

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Speaker 1: person that's with your wife? And Laurena? Do you know

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Speaker 1: her last name? Yeah? I mean a A. And he

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Speaker 1: goes on to list all five children missing, five children,

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Speaker 1: all gone with her. This is after she files for

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Speaker 1: a divorce. But that was way back in two seventeen.

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Speaker 1: What I want to know about is the car. What

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Speaker 1: can we learn from the car? Take listen to our

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Speaker 1: friend at Fox sixty one. This is Samara Abramson. Fifty

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Speaker 1: year old Jennifer Dulos was reported missing Friday night around

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Speaker 1: seven thirty, police saying she was last seen driving a

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Speaker 1: black twenty seventeen Chevrolet Suburban in New Canaan. A silver

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Speaker 1: alert was issued. I hope and pray someone knows something

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Speaker 1: and she is found. A source telling Fox sixty one

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Speaker 1: that the State Police Major Crimes Unit is assisting New

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Speaker 1: Canaan police to investigate her disappearance. Jennifer a mother of

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Speaker 1: five who filed for divorce in twenty seventeen from her husband,

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Speaker 1: Fotus Dulos, and has been involved in a long custody

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Speaker 1: battle with him. People who live in town have noticed

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Speaker 1: an increased police presence. I was going for a walk

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Speaker 1: early Sunday morning through Waveny Park and I noticed a

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Speaker 1: car parked by the side of the L road and

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Speaker 1: there seemed to be a policeman photographing the car. That's right,

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Speaker 1: and it was her car, Jennifer Dulos. She takes her

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Speaker 1: children to school eight am and the next thing you know,

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Speaker 1: by eleven am, her vehicle is abandoned. We know that

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Speaker 1: it is a twenty seventeen Chevy Suburban. You just don't

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Speaker 1: find abandoned cars. And young mom's missing in New Canaan, Connecticut,

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Speaker 1: very very unusual to doctor Patricia Saunders, Psychologists joining us

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Speaker 1: out of New York. What about it? That telephone call

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Speaker 1: that Woos made saying that his family was missing was

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Speaker 1: the night before he was actually served the divorce papers.

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Speaker 1: He sounds surprisingly calm on thee call. One of the

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Speaker 1: statements that Jennifer had made was she listened to years

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Speaker 1: of sickening revenge fantasies from her husband planning a whole

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Speaker 1: physical harm to people who he felt had wronged him.

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Speaker 1: So she had stated that she was afraid of her

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Speaker 1: husband and that he would find some way to get

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Speaker 1: revenge for her divorcing him. You know, doctor Patricia Saunders,

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Speaker 1: you know my husband David very very well, and all

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Speaker 1: the time I've known him, which goes all the way

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Speaker 1: back to college, I've never once heard him talk about

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Speaker 1: revenge ever. I mean, you know, he's in business and

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Speaker 1: business deals go up and business deals go down, and

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Speaker 1: sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't. I've never once

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Speaker 1: heard him say I'm going to get that guy never

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Speaker 1: wants guys. Hold. I've got to thank her partner making

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Speaker 1: today's program possible as we joined the search for a

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Speaker 1: missing mom, Jennifer Dulos. It's blink. Two questions about Dad

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Speaker 1: and the home secure? Absolutely? Yes, then this Father's Day

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Speaker 1: you for being our partner. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 1: Day nine of Jennifer Dulos's disappearance, State police continue searching

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Speaker 1: for clues and evidence and to what happened to her.

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Speaker 1: Earlier this week, Channel three learned Dulos was going through

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Speaker 1: a divorce and custody battle with her strange husband. Sources

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Speaker 1: tell our sisters stationed CBS to in New York police

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Speaker 1: have found no activity on her cell phone or credit

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Speaker 1: cards since her disappearance last Friday. Law enforcement sources told

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Speaker 1: Eyewitness News blood was found during the search, and that

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Speaker 1: search in New Canaan has expanded to include other towns,

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Speaker 1: including Hartford. State police there looked at security footage and

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Speaker 1: dug in trash cans for evidence, while canines walked several

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Speaker 1: streets between Homestead and Albany Avenue. Missing mom Jennifer Dulas

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Speaker 1: the minutes, the seconds, the hours ticking by turning into days.

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Speaker 1: Her five children want Mommy. So far, all we've got

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Speaker 1: is an abandoned car. Take a listen to what our

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Speaker 1: friend news reporter Carolina Cruz at wfs Bay Channel three

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Speaker 1: has to say. Late Friday night, a report of a

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Speaker 1: foul smell led police to Hartford's Keeney Park. Officers returned

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Speaker 1: yesterday at daybreak, but investigators told Channel three the odor

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Speaker 1: may be from a dead animal. Our law enforcement analysts,

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Speaker 1: retired State Police spokesman Lieutenant J. Paul Vans, who spent

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Speaker 1: forty three years with the department, that the search is

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Speaker 1: spread across so many cities and towns because they're working together,

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Speaker 1: sharing information, developing information all in an effort to put

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Speaker 1: this puzzle together. Certainly they take information confidentially, confidential informant

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Speaker 1: or a source can provide that information to law enforcement.

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Speaker 1: It's got to happen. People have to help law enforcement

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Speaker 1: answer every single question surrounding this case as to what

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Speaker 1: happened to this passing move. The search is on for

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Speaker 1: Jennifer Dulas. She's absolutely gorgeous. She is the mother of

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Speaker 1: five children. The police presence heavy. I've taken a look

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Speaker 1: inside a husband's home. You know, there's all those real

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Speaker 1: estate apps and you can find the inside of homes,

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Speaker 1: for instance, owns Zilla and send men the others man.

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Speaker 1: This guy must be rolling in money. I'm just wondering

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Speaker 1: how if in any way the family's helping to find her.

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Speaker 1: Of course they're a strange they're separated, but still she's

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Speaker 1: the mother of his child. Take a listen to this state.

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Speaker 1: Local and federal law enforcement have teamed up. They're looking

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Speaker 1: for her on foot, with canines in the air through

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Speaker 1: the use of drones. The fifty year old is the

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Speaker 1: mother of two sets of twins, including three sons and

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Speaker 1: two daughters, all under the age of thirteen. She was

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Speaker 1: involved in a heated divorce in child custody battle with

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Speaker 1: her estranged husband Photos Dulas. For nearly two years. There

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Speaker 1: are almost five hundred court filings involving their divorce proceedings.

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Speaker 1: There was a scheduled court date Wednesday for their legal proceedings,

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Speaker 1: but the date postponed one day after a court appointed

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Speaker 1: guardian for the children filed a motion for a status

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Speaker 1: conference regarding the safety of the children. Jennifer Dulas filed

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Speaker 1: for an emergency order for full custody that was denied

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Speaker 1: in twenty seventeen. The couple had a shared custody agreement

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Speaker 1: until the divorce was finalized. And it gets thicker here too.

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Speaker 1: Dulas said her husband had been having an affair before

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Speaker 1: they separated in twenty seventeenth, that he had purchased a gun,

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Speaker 1: and he stated in court documents that he purchased the

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Speaker 1: gun simply to protect his family and that he would

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Speaker 1: never harm his wife or his children. A lawyer for Photus, Duellus,

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Speaker 1: filed a letter with the court saying that the children

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Speaker 1: are staying with Jennifer's mother in a New York City

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Speaker 1: apartment under the protection of an armed guard. There has

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Speaker 1: been no comment from Photus dulus As the search continues

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Speaker 1: here today you're hearing our friend that Fox News, that

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Speaker 1: was Laura Ingele. What do we know right now? Jennifer Dulos,

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Speaker 1: mother of five missing to Kenya Johnson, felony prosecutor out

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Speaker 1: of the Atlanta juristation Kenya question do you why is

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Speaker 1: it that cops detectives must start with the husband, the

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Speaker 1: ex husband, the boyfriend, the lover. Why is that? Why

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Speaker 1: do they look there first? Well, then you got the

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Speaker 1: people that are closest to the missing person, So that's

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Speaker 1: where you go to at least eliminate people. If you

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Speaker 1: eliminate people and you can gather information, then you have

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Speaker 1: a starting point for an investigation. But patterns are really

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Speaker 1: important in this situation. Someone that does the same thing

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Speaker 1: at the same time is vulnerable when someone wants to

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Speaker 1: do them harm, they know exactly where to get to them.

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Speaker 1: And random strangers don't typically clean up after a particular clime.

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Speaker 1: So the fact that it looks like someone tried to

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Speaker 1: clean up blood indicate this is someone that knew exactly

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Speaker 1: what she was doing, where she was and when she

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Speaker 1: could possibly be vulnerable. So now investigators are looking at

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Speaker 1: the people close to her. They're looking at intense motives

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Speaker 1: and means too. Joseph Scott Morgan, Professor Forensic Jacksonall State University,

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Speaker 1: let me ask you a question. It seems to me

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Speaker 1: that if she dropped her children off at school at

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Speaker 1: eight am and then you find blood that seemingly is

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Speaker 1: cleaned up in the home that she came back, that

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Speaker 1: says to me she came back from taking them to school,

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Speaker 1: and I'm wondering if she's stopped anywhere along the way,

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Speaker 1: McDonald's for a cup of coffee, the grocery store, whatever's

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Speaker 1: opened at eight am, came into the home and that's

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Speaker 1: when the attack occurred. Because her car by eleven am

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Speaker 1: has been found abandoned. Yeah, I think so too, Nancy.

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Speaker 1: And to Kenya's point, I think that whoever's involved in this,

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Speaker 1: they have to know her timing. They have to know

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Speaker 1: that she would have taken those kids to school, and

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Speaker 1: then they would have had to have had access to

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Speaker 1: this area and in which this blood is found, And

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Speaker 1: this is going to be essential. I don't know what

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Speaker 1: you're saying about access. They could break in or get

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Speaker 1: in with a credit card at the door and fallen us.

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Speaker 1: She left the door un lot, But as far as timing,

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Speaker 1: I believe that's when the incident occurred. I mean had

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Speaker 1: to if that blood wiped up is related to her disappearance.

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Speaker 1: In the last hours, we learned that the husband has

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Speaker 1: given DNA samples straight out to David Mack. There's been

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Speaker 1: a lot of breaks in the case during the last

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Speaker 1: couple of hours. Dave mac joining me, syndicated talk show host,

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Speaker 1: what's the very latest. The latest day we have is

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Speaker 1: that Jennifer's husband, Fetus Dulus and his girlfriend Michelle Traconis,

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Speaker 1: who's they were both taken into custody and charged with

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Speaker 1: hindering prosecution and tampering with evidence over the weekend in

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Speaker 1: relation to the disappearance of missus Dula. Okay, that's not

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Speaker 1: good because if they are in any way trying to

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Speaker 1: cover up or tamper with evidence or keep police from

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Speaker 1: finding evidence, why would they want to do that unless

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Speaker 1: they've got something to cover up. Now, a defense attorney

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Speaker 1: will argue tampering with evidence or obstructing police does not

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Speaker 1: a murder make But if they're what other reason would

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Speaker 1: they cover up evidence or tamper with evidence or obstruct

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Speaker 1: police in their investigation? Dave Mack. You know what we've

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Speaker 1: gotten now is we've mentioned many times about the blood

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Speaker 1: being cleaned up at the New Canaan rental home that

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Speaker 1: Missus Dulos was living in. Well, they've gotten the DNA

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Speaker 1: broken down from that, and that was part of the

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Speaker 1: investigation over the weekend prior to his arrest. Mister Dulos

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Speaker 1: actually had given a DNA sample and hair follical samples

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Speaker 1: that they're running against some of the other evidence that

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Speaker 1: they've found. They're working multiple crime scenes, Nancy, as you mentioned,

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Speaker 1: from the SUV, the rental home, plus two multimillion dollar

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Speaker 1: properties that are directly attached to mister Dulos. If you

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Speaker 1: have information about the disappearance of Jennifer Dulos right now,

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Speaker 1: her children are being kept under armed guard with their grandparents,

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Speaker 1: please call in New Canaan Police. Two zero three five

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Speaker 1: nine four three five four four repeat two zero three

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Speaker 1: five nine four three five four four. The search goes

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Speaker 1: on crime stories with Nancy. Grace. Laura Bible a happy

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Speaker 1: baby and child. Today her mom Loreen shared these pictures

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Speaker 1: and many other things we've never seen before. Laura's kindergarten

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Speaker 1: report card and her book of math with division and

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Speaker 1: multiplication tables. She had written her name on the front

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Speaker 1: in cursive, and I had raised her to be very outspoken.

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Speaker 1: Speak up for yourself. You know, not be Timma. You

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Speaker 1: know you can be anything anyone you wanted. But Laura

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Speaker 1: is forever stuck at sixteen years old. It'll be nineteen

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Speaker 1: years later, house in nineteen years before you know anything.

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Speaker 1: Loreen still has Laura's cheerleading uniform she loved to cheer

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Speaker 1: and the shirt for her last school picture. Tragically, that

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Speaker 1: picture would be used for her missing poster. But Loreen

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Speaker 1: is grateful for the continued support of so many who

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Speaker 1: want to help her financers. You just keep the word

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Speaker 1: out and hope that the one person will be out

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Speaker 1: there that will say, Okay, today's today. I'm tired of

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Speaker 1: deal and you know this burden on me hair is

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Speaker 1: what I know. You're hearing our friends at Fox twenty

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Speaker 1: three News in Tulsa and a mom Loreene Bible talking

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Speaker 1: about a disappearance and we now know death of her daughter,

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Speaker 1: Laura joining me an all star panel. John Limley Crime

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Speaker 1: Online dot Com investigative reporter where you can find this

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Speaker 1: and all other breaking crime in justice news. Karen Stark

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Speaker 1: renowned psychologists joining us from Manhattan. You can find her

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Speaker 1: at Karenstart dot com and special guest FBI Special Agent

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Speaker 1: Bobby Chicone. John Limley tell me about the disappearance of

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Speaker 1: these two girls, Laura Bible and Ashley Freeman. This took

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Speaker 1: place during Christmas break in nineteen ninety nine. The girls

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Speaker 1: were off for two weeks, and they had spent a

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Speaker 1: good bit of the days leading up to and coming

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Speaker 1: out of Christmas at each other's homes. And on this night,

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Speaker 1: Ashley Freeman was celebrating her sixteenth birthday with her sixteen

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Speaker 1: year old best friend, Laura Bible and her parents. Ashley's parents,

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Speaker 1: Danny and Kathy Freeman, and her boyfriend, Jeremy Hurst. They

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Speaker 1: celebrated at the Freeman's home in there in Oklahoma. Jeremy

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Speaker 1: left about nine thirty that night. Sometime during the night

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Speaker 1: or the early morning hours of December thirtieth, a fire

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Speaker 1: erupted inside the Freeman's home. A concerned neighbor called the

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Speaker 1: fire department when he saw flames about five thirty in

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Speaker 1: the morning. Laura's parents and police immediately canvas the rubble

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Speaker 1: for signs of the Freeman's and Laura, Kathy was found dead,

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Speaker 1: but Danny in the immediate hours and the girls bodies

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Speaker 1: nowhere to be found. So it sounds to me, Bobby Chicone,

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Speaker 1: that someone kidnapped the girls and then burned down the

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Speaker 1: home to cover up a crime scene. Well, yes, but initially,

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Speaker 1: as John just said that the girls were missing, and initially,

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Speaker 1: when they when they really ended their initial crime scene

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Speaker 1: at the at the fire in the mobile home, the

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Speaker 1: father's body was not there. So initially there may have

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Speaker 1: been thoughts that the father somehow took the two girls somewhere. However,

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Speaker 1: through sloppy police work and a crime scene work or whatever,

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Speaker 1: it was Laura's Bible's parents who were sifting through the

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Speaker 1: rubble of that fire looking for clues that came across

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Speaker 1: the mister Freeman's body. Somehow the police investigators missed it.

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Speaker 1: They recovered his wife's body, but his body was not recovered.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't recovered until one of the victim's parents are

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Speaker 1: missing girls parents were sifting through the rubble and they

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Speaker 1: stepped they saw his body and they've notified authorities who

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Speaker 1: then came and got it. But so I think, you know,

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Speaker 1: there was there was some missteps made early on in

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Speaker 1: the investigation, particularly at the crime scene. When you find

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Speaker 1: a home totally burned beyond recognition and the two girls

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Speaker 1: are missing, their bodies never recovered, I'm back at my question.

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Speaker 1: They're gone and the house is burned down, and both

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Speaker 1: the parents are found right there. It looks to me

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Speaker 1: like that's covering up a crime. Arson is used to

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Speaker 1: cover up a crime. Whether the girls ran away and

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Speaker 1: burned down the home or they were abducted and the

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Speaker 1: purp burned down the home, well, sure, and I think

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Speaker 1: an examination of the bodies both found that they were shot,

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Speaker 1: I think execution style, and so you know, the medical

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Speaker 1: examiner then came up with the fact that, yes, it

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Speaker 1: does we confirm what it looked like. It looks like

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Speaker 1: there was a crime happened in this house. The parents

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Speaker 1: were murdered, the house was set on fire to cover up,

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Speaker 1: and then the girls were for whatever reason, then abducted

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Speaker 1: from the house too. John Linley, what happens next? Well,

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Speaker 1: one reason that investigators fairly quickly rule out that Laura

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Speaker 1: and Ashley might have had anything to do with the

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Speaker 1: murdering of Ashley's parents or the fire is that Laura's

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Speaker 1: purse was left behind. She had some money that she

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Speaker 1: had received for Christmas two hundred bucks and her driver's

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Speaker 1: license all still there at the scene. To Bobbie Cone,

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Speaker 1: how does Ronnie Dane Busick fit into this scenario? So

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Speaker 1: the let me let me backtrack a little bit on

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Speaker 1: the investigation. So the family of Laura Bible, I believe a,

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Speaker 1: hired two private investigators two years later because the trail

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Speaker 1: ran cold, and they then went about reinvestigating the case.

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Speaker 1: And early on in the case, they discovered that an

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Speaker 1: insurance card from a vehicle belonging to his girlfriend was

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Speaker 1: found at a road leading away from the crime scene.

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Speaker 1: I don't know the exact distance, but it gave them

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Speaker 1: enough pause to say, you know, they contacted that that woman,

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Speaker 1: who's whose vehicle that insurance card belonged to, and she didn't.

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Speaker 1: She claim not to have known why. But that was

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Speaker 1: the first piece of evidence tying him to the crime.

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Speaker 1: Is his girlfriend's insurance card for her vehicle was found

427
00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:35,280
Speaker 1: in the vicinity to Karen start right nowned psychologists joining

428
00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:39,000
Speaker 1: me out of Manhattan. Karen, when you look back and

429
00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:42,919
Speaker 1: you see, for instance, what is apparently a mistake made

430
00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:46,680
Speaker 1: by the purp where they dropped something at the scene.

431
00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:50,119
Speaker 1: A lot of times, many people read too much into that.

432
00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:52,920
Speaker 1: They think they subconsciously wanted to get caught. I disagree.

433
00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:54,720
Speaker 1: I think they just screwed up. Yeah, I don't think

434
00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:57,840
Speaker 1: he wanted to get caught at off, although Nancy, he

435
00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:03,000
Speaker 1: was very proud of what he did. And these guys,

436
00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:05,280
Speaker 1: they were they would let people know about it. They

437
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:11,200
Speaker 1: would show pictures. They were true criminals and true psychopaths.

438
00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:15,639
Speaker 1: They really enjoyed the suffering that they call. So do you,

439
00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:18,959
Speaker 1: Bobby Jacone, what how do you piece the facts together?

440
00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:21,879
Speaker 1: What do you think happened? Well? In going back and

441
00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:25,639
Speaker 1: now interviewing, because the case was so cold that people

442
00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:27,520
Speaker 1: are now willing to talk a little bit more freely

443
00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:31,400
Speaker 1: about it. Two of the three suspects have passed away,

444
00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:35,119
Speaker 1: and so now they're becoming through these new interviews, they're

445
00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:38,240
Speaker 1: developing a picture of what may have happened. And these

446
00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:42,199
Speaker 1: people are telling investigators that they were polaroid photographs of

447
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:46,479
Speaker 1: the girls in their final days in the home of

448
00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:49,560
Speaker 1: one of the suspects, and they were bound and gagged

449
00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:53,120
Speaker 1: and on a bed, and in some of those pictures,

450
00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:56,439
Speaker 1: one of the suspects actually appears. Now, these polaroid pictures

451
00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:58,720
Speaker 1: arelong gone and no one knows where they are, but

452
00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:03,000
Speaker 1: enough people saw them, and these guys were almost bragging

453
00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:05,560
Speaker 1: or showing off these pictures for a number of years,

454
00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:09,160
Speaker 1: and over those years, enough people saw these polaroid pictures

455
00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:11,679
Speaker 1: that has started to build a picture for investigators of

456
00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:13,439
Speaker 1: what happened to these girls. Let me ask you this,

457
00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:16,080
Speaker 1: Bobby Chicne, do you think there's any hype of finding

458
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:18,600
Speaker 1: a body? You know, I always have hope that will

459
00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:22,360
Speaker 1: find some evidence of the body, depending on how much

460
00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:25,439
Speaker 1: the composition has taken place. But you know, there's always

461
00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:28,360
Speaker 1: hope that and I've worked you know, I'm a forensically

462
00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:30,720
Speaker 1: trained person. I've done crime scenes for a number of years,

463
00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:33,919
Speaker 1: and I know my colleagues in the crime scene world.

464
00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:37,920
Speaker 1: You know, they painstakingly find things that we never think

465
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:40,240
Speaker 1: we'll be able to find. And you know, my hope

466
00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:43,600
Speaker 1: is that, you know, if the one remaining large suspect

467
00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:47,320
Speaker 1: lets the families know where those girls are. They talk

468
00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:50,480
Speaker 1: about a pit in the area where the girls lived,

469
00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:53,360
Speaker 1: or whether it suspects lived where the bodies might be.

470
00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:58,640
Speaker 1: So I hope that there they do some forensic examinations

471
00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:01,680
Speaker 1: and can maybe do some digging and maybe find some

472
00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:05,560
Speaker 1: DNA and let the families know, you know, give them

473
00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:09,280
Speaker 1: some sense of something that they can take away that

474
00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:11,760
Speaker 1: they know where the girls ended up to. John Limley,

475
00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:15,240
Speaker 1: do you believe there's any chance a deal will be

476
00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:19,000
Speaker 1: cut with Ronnie Dean Busick whereby he will give up

477
00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:22,720
Speaker 1: the location of the girl's bodies. That is what investigators

478
00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:27,960
Speaker 1: are hoping against hope that that might happen, you know, Nancy.

479
00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:33,200
Speaker 1: One witness reportedly said that a conversation between the three

480
00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:36,080
Speaker 1: men suspected in this case had implied that the Freeman

481
00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:40,120
Speaker 1: parents had been murdered over a debt, and that witness

482
00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:42,760
Speaker 1: said the suspects had also handed that they had taken

483
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:47,400
Speaker 1: the two girls and eventually killed them. Listen Today, charges

484
00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:51,880
Speaker 1: were filed against Ronnie Dean Musick, who by laws presumed

485
00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:56,360
Speaker 1: innocent of the charges. Mister Busick is charged with acting

486
00:29:56,400 --> 00:30:00,520
Speaker 1: in concert with whether men as follows, four counts, a

487
00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:06,240
Speaker 1: first degree murder for killing Kathy Freeman, Danny Freeman, Ashley Freeman,

488
00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:10,760
Speaker 1: and Laura Bible, two counts of kidnapping for the abductions

489
00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:14,040
Speaker 1: of Ashley Freeman and Laura Bible, and a final count

490
00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:17,120
Speaker 1: a first degree arson for setting fire to the Freemon.

491
00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:23,440
Speaker 1: Theseley young ladies final days were certainly horrific, and today's

492
00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:26,800
Speaker 1: announcement no doubt comes as little solace to their grief.

493
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:30,040
Speaker 1: It's been a goal or administration to help bring those

494
00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:32,920
Speaker 1: involved in these crimes of justice and locate Laurie Bible

495
00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:37,440
Speaker 1: and Ashley Freeman. Today is a major step toward that

496
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:40,760
Speaker 1: goal was taken with the arrest of Ronnie Musick. We

497
00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:42,880
Speaker 1: want to convey to everyone we will not stop working

498
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:46,440
Speaker 1: until we bring Laurie and Ashley home. We're asking for

499
00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:49,200
Speaker 1: any information that will help us find the girls have

500
00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:52,680
Speaker 1: been missing for more than eighteen years. We will never

501
00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:54,760
Speaker 1: quit searching, and we will do what is necessary to

502
00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:58,560
Speaker 1: bring them home to their families. The main investigators in

503
00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:01,520
Speaker 1: this most recent phase of the Freeming case have found

504
00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:07,160
Speaker 1: witnesses that proved that three codefendants talked a lot. There

505
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:09,760
Speaker 1: was physical evidence in the form of photos, and we

506
00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:11,680
Speaker 1: could be certain several people out there it could come

507
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:14,440
Speaker 1: forward right now and tell us where to find actually

508
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:29,959
Speaker 1: in crime stories with Nancy Grace to Bobby Chicon, there

509
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:33,120
Speaker 1: are a lot of witnesses, many witnesses who know the

510
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:37,320
Speaker 1: suspects and have given us investigators reason to believe the

511
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:41,520
Speaker 1: girls after their murders were thrown down a mine shaft.

512
00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:46,280
Speaker 1: If that's true, I mean I find it very difficult

513
00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:49,920
Speaker 1: to believe that every mind shaft is going to be

514
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:52,440
Speaker 1: searched and we're going to somehow, all these years later

515
00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:55,160
Speaker 1: find their bodies. Yeah, it would be have It's very

516
00:31:55,200 --> 00:32:00,440
Speaker 1: difficult endeavor to search areas like that without some assistance from,

517
00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:03,280
Speaker 1: you know, the one remaining defendant or the one person

518
00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:06,320
Speaker 1: who might know where the bodies were disposed of. So

519
00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:09,520
Speaker 1: I think that I think investigators and prosecutors are probably

520
00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:16,920
Speaker 1: working pretty hard on working with that defendant and possibly

521
00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:20,240
Speaker 1: offering something of a deal to give up where those

522
00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:22,760
Speaker 1: bodies were at least an area where that can narrow

523
00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:25,960
Speaker 1: down the searches. And if you can give a general area,

524
00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:28,920
Speaker 1: then they can get more specific and go in. But

525
00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:31,440
Speaker 1: you're right, I mean, it's virtually impossible. When you have

526
00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:35,000
Speaker 1: such a larger area to search, you always try to

527
00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:37,880
Speaker 1: take steps to narrow down where you look, and when

528
00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:40,440
Speaker 1: you're talking about places like quarries and mind chefts that

529
00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:43,760
Speaker 1: are just enormous, you really do need the assistance of

530
00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:46,240
Speaker 1: someone who may know a little bit more information about

531
00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:49,600
Speaker 1: where those bodies are to John Limley, What if any

532
00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:53,520
Speaker 1: evidence is there against the remaining defendant, Ronnie Dane Musick.

533
00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:57,360
Speaker 1: So what the case is really being built The foundation

534
00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:03,600
Speaker 1: is witness statements that link Busic, along with Warren, Philip Welch,

535
00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:07,200
Speaker 1: and David Pennington to the killings. Now, these other two

536
00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:12,200
Speaker 1: men have since died, but the prosecution is really relying

537
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:16,360
Speaker 1: on these witness statements to move their case forward. What

538
00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:23,760
Speaker 1: the witness statements have conversations with these three men about

539
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:27,080
Speaker 1: the killings. Apparently they were quite open with some of

540
00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:30,960
Speaker 1: their closest friends about what they had done to this

541
00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:34,160
Speaker 1: family and about the fact that they had abducted these

542
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:36,920
Speaker 1: two girls. Bobby John, what's the likelihood they can prove

543
00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:39,440
Speaker 1: a case this all without a body? Well, this is

544
00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:41,680
Speaker 1: a tough case. This is this is probably the toughest

545
00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:44,760
Speaker 1: of these cold cases because you know, we're not dealing

546
00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:47,760
Speaker 1: with DNA like we usually see in some of these cases,

547
00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:50,520
Speaker 1: you know, and we're not dealing with a body like

548
00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:53,280
Speaker 1: you said, and so this is going to be a

549
00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:56,640
Speaker 1: more difficult case because you know what the defense obviously

550
00:33:56,680 --> 00:33:58,400
Speaker 1: we'll do, was hip into each and every one of

551
00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:02,120
Speaker 1: these statements and so called witnesses that have come forward

552
00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:04,880
Speaker 1: now and say these three gentlemen were involved in a

553
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:08,840
Speaker 1: drug conspiracy. They were known drug dealers, they worked together,

554
00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:12,239
Speaker 1: and you know, they had a relationship with the Freeman's

555
00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:15,920
Speaker 1: and it might have been a dealer consumer relationship with

556
00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:19,400
Speaker 1: drugs and that. So so the theory is there. Um,

557
00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:22,799
Speaker 1: it's very short on physical evidence right now in this case.

558
00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:26,120
Speaker 1: So so you know, now I'm not a prosecutor, m

559
00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:28,279
Speaker 1: but you know, as a prosecutor, you know that you

560
00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:30,640
Speaker 1: know when you're so short on physical evidence, that the

561
00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:33,640
Speaker 1: jury has to kind of make that that that leave

562
00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:37,200
Speaker 1: of faith and put faith in the witness testimony who say,

563
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:39,960
Speaker 1: you know, I saw these photographs of the girls. These

564
00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:43,120
Speaker 1: guys were bragging about it. This is what they said. Um,

565
00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:46,400
Speaker 1: but you're right, this this case is sorely missing a

566
00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:48,839
Speaker 1: lot of physical evidence. What about the theory that there

567
00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:52,880
Speaker 1: was a police cover up? John Lemley, the police and

568
00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:57,879
Speaker 1: Ashley's parents were they were familiar with one another quite

569
00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:00,640
Speaker 1: a bit. And I don't know what you may because

570
00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:06,480
Speaker 1: of their drug dealings Danny and Kathy, the police had

571
00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:11,720
Speaker 1: a good number of occasions to deal with the parents.

572
00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:14,120
Speaker 1: Are you trying to say they had arrest of the

573
00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:18,640
Speaker 1: parents before. Okay, Karen starts psychologists. Now there are claims

574
00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:22,000
Speaker 1: that there was a police cover up. Have you noticed,

575
00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:24,719
Speaker 1: for instance, in the O. J. Simpson case and so

576
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:27,279
Speaker 1: many other cases, that's just one I pulling out of

577
00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:31,839
Speaker 1: the hat. The defense will argue either police in competence

578
00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:35,359
Speaker 1: or a police cover up. As a defense, it's kind

579
00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:38,319
Speaker 1: of a go to defense. Well, you've got nowhere else

580
00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:41,160
Speaker 1: to go, Karen Stark. And it's so hard to prove,

581
00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:45,759
Speaker 1: you know, making of a murderer, making that the whole

582
00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:48,080
Speaker 1: thing where they're saying there was a police cover up,

583
00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:51,520
Speaker 1: and they don't get anywhere with it. It's just an

584
00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:54,680
Speaker 1: easy way to blame the police for that. What is it,

585
00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:59,719
Speaker 1: Bobby Jicone, You've got to see a pattern emerging that

586
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:02,800
Speaker 1: in a defendant has nowhere else to go, they climb

587
00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:04,719
Speaker 1: a police cover up. Sure, you know, the old saying

588
00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:06,560
Speaker 1: is when you can't you know, when you can't blame

589
00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:08,840
Speaker 1: the fact, when you can't explain the facts, you attack

590
00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:11,680
Speaker 1: the police. Um. And so that's that's the age old

591
00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:15,960
Speaker 1: defense tactics. You always, you know, they always that's been

592
00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:18,160
Speaker 1: said for a long time. And so when you don't

593
00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:20,680
Speaker 1: have much to go on, you know, just start attacking

594
00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:22,880
Speaker 1: the police. However, in this case, you know, and and

595
00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:26,359
Speaker 1: sometimes police aren't perfect either, and so if they make

596
00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:28,920
Speaker 1: a misstep or they do something like that, it feeds

597
00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:32,400
Speaker 1: that fodder, it gives fuel to that fire. And I

598
00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:35,680
Speaker 1: think that in certain populations there's a mistrust of police

599
00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:38,560
Speaker 1: or a desire to, you know, um, fight the police.

600
00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:40,840
Speaker 1: And so I think that, you know, when when the

601
00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:44,560
Speaker 1: police do something like that that seems maybe not perfect,

602
00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:47,160
Speaker 1: they seize on that and they use it as a

603
00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:49,600
Speaker 1: way to go, Look, if they were this bad here

604
00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:54,200
Speaker 1: or this sloppy here, then they probably that miss behavior

605
00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:56,799
Speaker 1: probably bleeds over into this case or something like that.

606
00:36:56,880 --> 00:36:58,960
Speaker 1: So I think that there's there's a willingness and a

607
00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:01,760
Speaker 1: desire to do at and sometimes if the police slip

608
00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:04,960
Speaker 1: up a little bit innocently or not, it's used in

609
00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:07,640
Speaker 1: that endeavor. Listen, there are people out there. I still

610
00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:11,120
Speaker 1: hope in my heart that they know something, however little

611
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:15,280
Speaker 1: it might be to them. It's like a puzzle piece,

612
00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:18,920
Speaker 1: but somebody knows what these girls are. And for me,

613
00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:23,759
Speaker 1: I need to bring my daughter home. You misters for

614
00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:26,879
Speaker 1: a long time, but we're going to bring her home.

615
00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:31,000
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace crime Story, signing off goodbye friend,