1 00:00:02,560 --> 00:00:04,920 Speaker 1: Before we get started, I want to let you know 2 00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:09,600 Speaker 1: we'll be discussing body image, eating disorders, and suicide. There's 3 00:00:09,640 --> 00:00:13,000 Speaker 1: research showing that exposure to details about eating disorders can 4 00:00:13,039 --> 00:00:16,520 Speaker 1: contribute to symptoms. So if you find those topics triggering, 5 00:00:16,640 --> 00:00:22,400 Speaker 1: please take care or just skip this one. What do 6 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:25,160 Speaker 1: you think is the biggest issue or the most difficult 7 00:00:25,200 --> 00:00:29,760 Speaker 1: issue to tackle in the world of ballet? Fat phobiod 8 00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:40,840 Speaker 1: I firmly believe that ballet culture in general will compromise 9 00:00:41,520 --> 00:00:45,520 Speaker 1: on basically everything else before it compromises on the body ideal. 10 00:00:47,159 --> 00:00:50,120 Speaker 1: Chloe Agel is a journalist and she's interviewed dozens of 11 00:00:50,200 --> 00:00:53,400 Speaker 1: dancers about what happens in the classroom. She wrote a 12 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:56,800 Speaker 1: book called Turning Point, How a new generation of dancers 13 00:00:56,960 --> 00:01:03,760 Speaker 1: is saving ballet from itself. In her book, Chloe explores 14 00:01:03,800 --> 00:01:07,600 Speaker 1: an idea dancers of any generation will recognize. It's this 15 00:01:07,720 --> 00:01:13,600 Speaker 1: concept of the line. Dancers talk about lines, or their 16 00:01:13,680 --> 00:01:17,560 Speaker 1: line or the line all the time. It can mean 17 00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:22,040 Speaker 1: slightly different things in different contexts, but basically, from outstretched 18 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:25,520 Speaker 1: fingertip to pointed toe, dancers strive for a long, slender 19 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:29,000 Speaker 1: shape with their body uninterrupted by what are seen as 20 00:01:29,080 --> 00:01:36,200 Speaker 1: extraneous angles or curves. I'm curious what you think of 21 00:01:36,240 --> 00:01:44,000 Speaker 1: the idea of the dancers line and what is why 22 00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:47,760 Speaker 1: does that make you laugh? Because so much harm has 23 00:01:47,760 --> 00:01:51,280 Speaker 1: been done in the name of the line, and it 24 00:01:51,360 --> 00:01:54,320 Speaker 1: came up all the time when I was reporting turning Point, 25 00:01:54,520 --> 00:01:58,520 Speaker 1: mostly in young people who had been told they needed 26 00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:00,920 Speaker 1: to work on their lines, which is usually code for 27 00:02:01,120 --> 00:02:02,760 Speaker 1: you need to lose weight. They just can't say it 28 00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:06,880 Speaker 1: out loud anymore. So many people have been encouraged to 29 00:02:06,920 --> 00:02:11,639 Speaker 1: starve themselves and done so. So many people have shoved 30 00:02:11,680 --> 00:02:14,200 Speaker 1: their feet under couches so that they can get the 31 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:18,200 Speaker 1: foot arch that they know they're supposed to have. So 32 00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:22,320 Speaker 1: many people have developed a really dysfunctional relationship with exercise 33 00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:27,840 Speaker 1: and with food, simply because most people in the ballet world, 34 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:34,359 Speaker 1: I'm more interested in their experience of watching it than 35 00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:44,040 Speaker 1: in the dances experience of executing it. You're there to 36 00:02:44,040 --> 00:02:47,480 Speaker 1: see the movement be executed in And I'm going to 37 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:49,959 Speaker 1: start using problematic words that I can unpack in a 38 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:57,040 Speaker 1: little bit in the cleanest, purest, most undistracting way possible. 39 00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:04,920 Speaker 1: Breast are unclean, butts are impure, and hips are distracting. 40 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:09,600 Speaker 1: That's the way we talk about lines, clean lines, long lines, 41 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:15,560 Speaker 1: pure movement, which implies that people who are not incredibly 42 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:20,720 Speaker 1: slender with a prepubescent body for girls and women, not 43 00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:22,639 Speaker 1: for boys, they're allowed to hit puberty and become men. 44 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:27,400 Speaker 1: People who don't look like that are somehow unclean, impure 45 00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:32,920 Speaker 1: and distracting. And it's incredibly damaging, and it's incredibly pervasive, 46 00:03:33,480 --> 00:03:37,480 Speaker 1: and a lot of those assumptions never get unpacked, never 47 00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:41,560 Speaker 1: get made explicit. And I mean that stays with you forever. 48 00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:43,680 Speaker 1: If you don't unpack it, if you don't face it, 49 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:45,920 Speaker 1: if you don't think about what it really means, that 50 00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:51,840 Speaker 1: shit stays with you forever. Ballerina is starving themselves is 51 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:55,360 Speaker 1: practically a tired troupe at this point. Everyone's heard about it, 52 00:03:55,760 --> 00:03:59,440 Speaker 1: everyone agrees it's not healthy. Dancers have poshed for change, 53 00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:02,320 Speaker 1: and how they're by these are discussed and considered. But 54 00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:05,119 Speaker 1: that's why, in a way it's so surprising. It's still 55 00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:08,360 Speaker 1: a prevalent problem, and it's kind of a mystery exactly 56 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:11,800 Speaker 1: where and how this standard unfurled itself and crept its 57 00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:14,560 Speaker 1: way into the back of almost every ballet dancer's mind. 58 00:04:15,760 --> 00:04:18,000 Speaker 1: As I spoke with Chloe, I wanted to understand where 59 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:21,840 Speaker 1: these strict standards came from. It's a complicated question. There's 60 00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:25,479 Speaker 1: definitely not one person or one company who decided it 61 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:28,640 Speaker 1: had to be this way. Ballet evolved over the course 62 00:04:28,640 --> 00:04:32,800 Speaker 1: of centuries as it moved from France to Russia to America. 63 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:35,160 Speaker 1: And there are many people who have nourished and spread 64 00:04:35,200 --> 00:04:38,960 Speaker 1: the thin ideal in ballet. Sometimes I almost wonder if 65 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:40,960 Speaker 1: it's a force that at times has taken on a 66 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:45,600 Speaker 1: life of its own, powered by culture and implicit social pressures, 67 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:48,919 Speaker 1: like a weed you can't get rid of. At the 68 00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:51,800 Speaker 1: same time, there are some people who had more influence 69 00:04:51,839 --> 00:04:57,640 Speaker 1: on the culture of ballet than others. Balancing reshaped American ballet. 70 00:04:58,200 --> 00:05:02,200 Speaker 1: He is understood to be the father of American ballet. 71 00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:05,880 Speaker 1: That's what they call him. And he was not the 72 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:08,720 Speaker 1: first person to bring ballet to America. He was not 73 00:05:08,760 --> 00:05:10,479 Speaker 1: the first person to try and impose his vision of 74 00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:14,000 Speaker 1: ballet on America. But his stuck. Why do you say 75 00:05:14,040 --> 00:05:18,479 Speaker 1: that One of the things that he modeled in his 76 00:05:18,560 --> 00:05:24,640 Speaker 1: company in New York City Ballet was the unquestionable or 77 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:30,400 Speaker 1: powerful artistic director boss. They loved him, they worshiped him, 78 00:05:30,520 --> 00:05:36,520 Speaker 1: they desired his approval and his affection, and that model 79 00:05:36,839 --> 00:05:42,560 Speaker 1: is so damaging. It is so ripe for abuse and 80 00:05:42,680 --> 00:05:49,040 Speaker 1: mistreatment and a general feeling of powerlessness in the workplace 81 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:55,160 Speaker 1: and obedience to hierarchical authority that did not begin with him. 82 00:05:55,400 --> 00:05:59,880 Speaker 1: As he became sort of synonymous with American ballet, lots 83 00:05:59,880 --> 00:06:05,680 Speaker 1: of people replicated because it quote worked. And the other 84 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:09,200 Speaker 1: thing that he left us with is his bodily ideal, 85 00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:15,520 Speaker 1: particularly for women dances, and that is long legs, long neck, 86 00:06:16,320 --> 00:06:39,800 Speaker 1: long thin everything that is part of his legacy from 87 00:06:39,839 --> 00:06:43,600 Speaker 1: iHeart Podcasts and Rococo Punch. This is the turning room 88 00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:58,400 Speaker 1: of Mirrors America Lance, Part seven. The line as toxic 89 00:06:58,640 --> 00:07:01,640 Speaker 1: encoded as invoking the line can be. When I watch 90 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:05,360 Speaker 1: a balancing ballet, I'm overcome by beauty, and I find 91 00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:08,160 Speaker 1: it hard to divorce the line from what makes it beautiful. 92 00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:16,840 Speaker 1: Like in Balancing's Tchaikovsky Patada, a lonely violin's bittersweet melody 93 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:21,960 Speaker 1: is embodied by a dancer in her partner. The ballerina 94 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:25,239 Speaker 1: flits across the stage. She takes her partner's hand gently, 95 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:28,400 Speaker 1: and he lifts her over his head while she extends 96 00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:35,040 Speaker 1: one leg in the air like a thin arrow. Then 97 00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:38,760 Speaker 1: she reverses direction midair. She stretches her legs apart so 98 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:42,720 Speaker 1: they're almost parallel to the floor. Her arms lift to 99 00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:47,720 Speaker 1: a delicate v, like the outline of a swan's outstretched wings. 100 00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:55,000 Speaker 1: She's floating. It draws me in, and it did the 101 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:59,120 Speaker 1: same thing for Sophie Fleck the first time she saw it. 102 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:04,240 Speaker 1: It seemed like it was almost ridiculous, how big she 103 00:08:04,400 --> 00:08:13,680 Speaker 1: was moving. It was like almost funny. Sophie Flack saw 104 00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:17,280 Speaker 1: Balancie's choreography for the first time in the mid nineteen nineties. 105 00:08:17,840 --> 00:08:21,040 Speaker 1: She was around ten years old. Balancine had been long 106 00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:24,160 Speaker 1: gone from New York City ballet. He died a decade earlier, 107 00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:27,920 Speaker 1: but Sophie found herself in a ballet class, huddled in 108 00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:30,920 Speaker 1: front of a TV screen next to her peers, watching 109 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:34,560 Speaker 1: a woman who had been molded by Balanchine himself. The 110 00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:38,720 Speaker 1: woman was Patricia McBride, and she was dancing the Tchaikovsky Patada, 111 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:44,880 Speaker 1: and literally I was floored. I remember at some point 112 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:48,000 Speaker 1: I saw something with a core to ballet. The core 113 00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:50,880 Speaker 1: de ballet as a group of dancers that typically serves 114 00:08:50,920 --> 00:08:54,600 Speaker 1: as a backdrop to the soloists, but in Balanchine ballets, 115 00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:57,920 Speaker 1: the core is often more active and focal. In a piece, 116 00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:01,400 Speaker 1: he might have dozens of dancers move in unison, dashing 117 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:05,520 Speaker 1: across the stage and speedy twirls or dramatic jumps, and 118 00:09:05,559 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 1: I was like, oh my god, that looks so fun. 119 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:11,400 Speaker 1: Like it all just looks so fun. I think for 120 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:14,360 Speaker 1: me it was the music, though, you become the music, 121 00:09:14,559 --> 00:09:18,280 Speaker 1: as George Ballancheen once said, see the music here the dance. 122 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:22,040 Speaker 1: Katherine Morgan also discovered Balancheen when she was about ten. 123 00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:24,640 Speaker 1: It was when she saw the New York City Ballet 124 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:28,760 Speaker 1: performed The Nutcracker. Like Sophie, Katherine fell in love with 125 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:31,760 Speaker 1: the excitement and the dynamic movement she was seeing from 126 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:35,120 Speaker 1: all the dancers on the stage. I remember walking out 127 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:36,560 Speaker 1: of there and going, I'm going to be up there 128 00:09:36,600 --> 00:09:39,040 Speaker 1: one day. That's where I want to dance. I came 129 00:09:39,120 --> 00:09:40,559 Speaker 1: home and I was like, I want to dance in 130 00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:42,440 Speaker 1: New York City Ballet. I want to dance balancing. And 131 00:09:42,480 --> 00:09:45,640 Speaker 1: then my mom did the research. Katherine and Sophie both 132 00:09:45,679 --> 00:09:49,280 Speaker 1: started to dream about entering Balancian's world. One day, these 133 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:52,480 Speaker 1: two young girls, a few years apart, each started to 134 00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:57,240 Speaker 1: work on that goal, one in Massachusetts, the other in Alabama. 135 00:09:57,320 --> 00:09:59,760 Speaker 1: As they rose through ballet school levels, they each got 136 00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:02,520 Speaker 1: a with the language and the ways of ballet, how 137 00:10:02,559 --> 00:10:04,480 Speaker 1: to tie a bun in their hair, how to point 138 00:10:04,520 --> 00:10:07,200 Speaker 1: their toes, and along with that they began to learn 139 00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:11,120 Speaker 1: about expectations for their bodies. Because I was never the 140 00:10:11,160 --> 00:10:12,960 Speaker 1: smallest one. You know, teachers who are trying to be 141 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:15,440 Speaker 1: helpful would pull me aside and be like, you know, 142 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:17,959 Speaker 1: you're talented enough for this, but you're always going to 143 00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:20,040 Speaker 1: have to watch your weight. You're gonna have to be careful. 144 00:10:20,080 --> 00:10:21,880 Speaker 1: You're not the thinnest one, so you're gonna have to 145 00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:24,440 Speaker 1: work twice as hard because you're not skinny. You just 146 00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:28,080 Speaker 1: need to be careful. At like twelve, thirteen, fourteen, it 147 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:29,880 Speaker 1: was always a thing in the back of my head 148 00:10:29,960 --> 00:10:33,600 Speaker 1: that was put there. I remember thinking, well, I'm not 149 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:37,760 Speaker 1: worth anything until i'm skinny. I mean, also, you're just 150 00:10:38,559 --> 00:10:40,360 Speaker 1: I feel like groomed is a very charged word, but 151 00:10:40,360 --> 00:10:42,920 Speaker 1: I don't know what else to use, but like groomed 152 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:48,439 Speaker 1: to accept like a very specific ideal from a very 153 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:51,760 Speaker 1: young age. So it's not even really something you have 154 00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:55,400 Speaker 1: to talk about a lot. It's like your front should 155 00:10:55,440 --> 00:10:58,439 Speaker 1: be completely flat with your hips and your stomach and 156 00:10:58,559 --> 00:11:01,640 Speaker 1: your chest. If there's something jutting out, it ruins the line. 157 00:11:03,360 --> 00:11:06,640 Speaker 1: I remember people talking about my body like there was 158 00:11:06,679 --> 00:11:11,080 Speaker 1: a physical therapist I saw regularly, just sort of like 159 00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:15,720 Speaker 1: to check that I was developing well as a dancer. 160 00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:21,880 Speaker 1: And my mother asked, like if she thought that I 161 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:25,880 Speaker 1: had like a appropriate body for ballet, like in front 162 00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:29,200 Speaker 1: of me, and she was like, yes, it's like ideal 163 00:11:29,320 --> 00:11:32,120 Speaker 1: or something. And my mom was like, do you think 164 00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:34,920 Speaker 1: like it will change over time, like with puberty, And 165 00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:38,520 Speaker 1: the woman was like, no, I think like if you 166 00:11:38,559 --> 00:11:41,480 Speaker 1: know her thighs aren't overdeveloped now, like it would probably 167 00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:44,160 Speaker 1: just stay that way. Like they were talking about me 168 00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:47,960 Speaker 1: as if I wasn't there, So I mean that messaging 169 00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:51,360 Speaker 1: is like, okay, my thighs like can't get bigger. Basically, 170 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:54,400 Speaker 1: how old do you think you were? Then? Oh, you 171 00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:57,400 Speaker 1: know under ten? For sure you were under ten And 172 00:11:57,400 --> 00:11:59,840 Speaker 1: they're like talking about the size of your thighs. Yeah. 173 00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:07,719 Speaker 1: Katherine and Sophie both still aimed to dance balancing's choreography, 174 00:12:08,360 --> 00:12:11,200 Speaker 1: so on their own timelines. They each audition for the 175 00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:14,520 Speaker 1: School of American Ballet. The feeder school to the ballet 176 00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:20,439 Speaker 1: company founded by balancing. I also remember at the SAB 177 00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:23,920 Speaker 1: audition School of American Ballet this particular one, before we 178 00:12:23,960 --> 00:12:26,840 Speaker 1: did anything, the teacher went around and checked our feet, 179 00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:30,240 Speaker 1: so we each had to point our foot so she 180 00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:33,520 Speaker 1: could see what our arches were like. So it just 181 00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:35,600 Speaker 1: shows like, if you have a really pretty foot, it's 182 00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:39,680 Speaker 1: good for ballet. Katherine had been to so many auditions 183 00:12:39,679 --> 00:12:42,360 Speaker 1: for ballet schools that they all seemed to blend together, 184 00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:45,719 Speaker 1: but she says very close examination of the body was 185 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:49,360 Speaker 1: part of it. When you show up for an audition, 186 00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:54,000 Speaker 1: they'll look at the parents because they'll go, what is 187 00:12:54,040 --> 00:12:57,959 Speaker 1: this kid going to turn into? What are the genetics? Oh, well, 188 00:12:58,000 --> 00:12:59,400 Speaker 1: her mom's a little bit curvy, so we'll have to 189 00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:02,640 Speaker 1: see what happened with that. Oh, her mom has hips. 190 00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:06,520 Speaker 1: My mom remembers at many auditions being given the full 191 00:13:06,520 --> 00:13:09,520 Speaker 1: body scan to see what I was going to turn into. 192 00:13:10,480 --> 00:13:23,000 Speaker 1: And funnily enough, I'm adopted, so it's irrelevant. So in 193 00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:27,679 Speaker 1: their auditions, both Katherine and Sophie were evaluated and they 194 00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:31,280 Speaker 1: both got into the School of American Ballet SAB for short. 195 00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:35,640 Speaker 1: About two thousand had auditioned just a couple hundred made 196 00:13:35,640 --> 00:13:39,320 Speaker 1: it so my mom and I made plans with my father, 197 00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:41,480 Speaker 1: and that's when we decided that she would move up 198 00:13:41,520 --> 00:13:43,960 Speaker 1: with me because she didn't want her fifteen year old 199 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:46,880 Speaker 1: southern girl because I was from Alabama staying in the 200 00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:49,800 Speaker 1: dorms by herself in New York City. That would not 201 00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:53,760 Speaker 1: have gone well. I would have been just lost in 202 00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:58,680 Speaker 1: a hole somewhere, honestly. Unlike Katherine, Sophie left her family 203 00:13:59,080 --> 00:14:01,880 Speaker 1: and moved into the arms three floors in a New 204 00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:05,720 Speaker 1: York Hi rise just below the Juilliard Dorm an elevator 205 00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:08,160 Speaker 1: ride down from the kid's dorm rooms was the studio, 206 00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:11,640 Speaker 1: and then the cafeteria was on the bottom floor. So 207 00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:14,920 Speaker 1: your whole world is in this one building. You had 208 00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:17,760 Speaker 1: to check in and out by writing your name and 209 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:20,120 Speaker 1: the time, and you had like a certain amount of 210 00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:22,480 Speaker 1: time I think that you had you could be out 211 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:26,000 Speaker 1: before coming back. In the lounge, we would watch sex 212 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:28,880 Speaker 1: in the city. The person at the desk would like 213 00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:32,960 Speaker 1: throw a movie night or something once a week where 214 00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:35,320 Speaker 1: you'd have like all this junk food laid out, and 215 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:38,720 Speaker 1: we would use the stairs for exercise for burning calories. 216 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:42,400 Speaker 1: We'd run up and down them we got really competitive 217 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:46,640 Speaker 1: about burning calories. In between ballet classes. Sophie went to 218 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:49,840 Speaker 1: Professional Children's School in New York. It's a school for 219 00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:54,080 Speaker 1: kids pursuing careers like actors, dancers, musicians. A lot of 220 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:57,080 Speaker 1: movie stars go there. Each day, Sophie would have to 221 00:14:57,120 --> 00:15:01,440 Speaker 1: hurry back for ballet class. We literally run along Columbus Avenue, 222 00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:03,640 Speaker 1: racing the other girls in my class to get a 223 00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:06,680 Speaker 1: good spot near the teacher or at the skinny mirror. 224 00:15:07,280 --> 00:15:10,320 Speaker 1: And then we'd go back again for another class. And 225 00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:15,960 Speaker 1: like our meals were eaten while walking, and I remember 226 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:21,120 Speaker 1: noting to myself, I am doing this like I'm going 227 00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:23,240 Speaker 1: to give it my all or I'm going to go home, 228 00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:33,560 Speaker 1: like that kind of thing. I really worked hard every day. 229 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:36,920 Speaker 1: When Sophie went down to the SAB studios, she passed 230 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:40,680 Speaker 1: a giant bust of balancing. It reminded her who this 231 00:15:40,760 --> 00:15:44,840 Speaker 1: was all for. What you're doing is larger than yourself, 232 00:15:44,920 --> 00:15:47,440 Speaker 1: almost like a religion, Like this is bigger than you. 233 00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:50,920 Speaker 1: I was serving something larger than myself. If it's not God, 234 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:53,080 Speaker 1: then it's the art form or balancing. For me, it 235 00:15:53,160 --> 00:16:05,840 Speaker 1: felt like it's like balancing's ghosts or something Balancine's ghosts 236 00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:10,200 Speaker 1: loomed large at SAB, but to progress, Sophie and Catherine 237 00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:12,800 Speaker 1: had to grab the attention of a mortal man, the 238 00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:15,480 Speaker 1: head of the New York City Ballet who had final 239 00:16:15,560 --> 00:16:19,080 Speaker 1: say in their futures, the artistic director of the company 240 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:45,040 Speaker 1: at the time, Peter Martin's. When Sophie Flack was a 241 00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:48,280 Speaker 1: teenager at SAB, it was still years before an internal 242 00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:53,160 Speaker 1: investigation would take place and Peter Martins would resign. To Sophie, 243 00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:57,360 Speaker 1: all that mattered was if Peter liked her. He held 244 00:16:57,840 --> 00:17:00,760 Speaker 1: a lot of power, but it also was very apparent 245 00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:04,520 Speaker 1: in his body, just the way that he moved through 246 00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:08,399 Speaker 1: space and the way he regarded people. He spoke with 247 00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:13,399 Speaker 1: this light, sophisticated Danish accent. He was quite tall, sort 248 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:16,960 Speaker 1: of like Ramrod posture, so when you enter a room, 249 00:17:17,080 --> 00:17:20,359 Speaker 1: it's not just like a pedestrian walking into a room. 250 00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:25,400 Speaker 1: You're making an entrance. He seemed very aware of his presence. 251 00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:30,200 Speaker 1: He was like a figure, not a person. Later, when 252 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:33,280 Speaker 1: Sophie was in the company, she says dancers would point 253 00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:36,280 Speaker 1: out the cameras that monitored the stage and joke there 254 00:17:36,280 --> 00:17:39,320 Speaker 1: were cameras everywhere with a live fee to Peter's office. 255 00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:42,800 Speaker 1: It felt like he was always watching, like you were 256 00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:47,240 Speaker 1: always on display. He never spoke to us. He had 257 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:53,439 Speaker 1: like a very small circle of people who he seemed 258 00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:56,720 Speaker 1: to know or gap with a little bit. That seems 259 00:17:56,760 --> 00:17:58,760 Speaker 1: sort of like on the inside, or like knew a 260 00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:01,840 Speaker 1: secret that no one else knew. I didn't quite understand 261 00:18:02,040 --> 00:18:05,960 Speaker 1: how one gained entry to that. It's very small social circle. 262 00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:09,160 Speaker 1: They definitely existed on a higher plane. I'll just say that. 263 00:18:10,760 --> 00:18:14,480 Speaker 1: And like, you know, we're in charge of our everything, 264 00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:32,520 Speaker 1: our lives, our roles, validation, you know everything. Sophie knew 265 00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:35,920 Speaker 1: she had to please Peter's inner circle, but ultimately Peter 266 00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:38,399 Speaker 1: made all the decisions about who would join the company. 267 00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:45,480 Speaker 1: He would observe class at the school and occasionally teach, 268 00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:52,000 Speaker 1: which was terrifying. The balancing technique is like the whole 269 00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:56,440 Speaker 1: idea was to push yourself off balance, to reach beyond 270 00:18:56,520 --> 00:18:58,840 Speaker 1: what you thought you could, so there's never quite an 271 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:03,920 Speaker 1: end to it. Sophie worked harder than she ever had, 272 00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:06,439 Speaker 1: but it wasn't enough to execute a certain number of 273 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:11,320 Speaker 1: flats or drill hundreds of perfectly formed tondus to gain 274 00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:13,960 Speaker 1: entry into that inner world. She felt she'd have to 275 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:21,280 Speaker 1: do something more. I think I started developing like an 276 00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:23,359 Speaker 1: eating disorder actually when I was about twelve, because I 277 00:19:23,359 --> 00:19:26,199 Speaker 1: started developing breasts and I didn't want to because I 278 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:30,120 Speaker 1: was concerned they were too big for the company. Sophie 279 00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:33,160 Speaker 1: wanted to look like a balancing dancer. She had four 280 00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:37,080 Speaker 1: tapes of balancing repertoire. She watched them on repeat. She 281 00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:41,360 Speaker 1: studied the movement and the dancers, and she noticed a pattern. 282 00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:45,720 Speaker 1: Everybody was completely flat chested in the videos that I 283 00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:48,800 Speaker 1: was watching. I'm not talking about like small boobs. I'm 284 00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:54,160 Speaker 1: talking about like like almost like a man. And then 285 00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:57,679 Speaker 1: I started getting little boobs and they just kept getting 286 00:19:57,680 --> 00:20:01,760 Speaker 1: a little bigger, like and I that was not okay, 287 00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:03,720 Speaker 1: And like the only way I knew how to control 288 00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:07,040 Speaker 1: it was through diet. So yeah, you definitely aren't allowed 289 00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:11,160 Speaker 1: to grow up. Do you know with women in ballet, 290 00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:15,359 Speaker 1: when they naturally become what they're supposed to become, which 291 00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:20,359 Speaker 1: is a woman, it's like, you know, oh, she's getting hips. 292 00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:22,960 Speaker 1: Oh she's starting to look like a woman. Oh she's 293 00:20:23,119 --> 00:20:25,680 Speaker 1: in and you're like, um, that's what's supposed to happen. 294 00:20:26,359 --> 00:20:29,359 Speaker 1: Whereas with men it's the opposite. Oh, he's so scrawny. Oh, 295 00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:32,440 Speaker 1: he's becoming a man. Finally he looks like a man. 296 00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:34,560 Speaker 1: And for us, it's the flip side. They want us 297 00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:38,360 Speaker 1: to stay looking prepubescent. Yeah, it's weird that the look 298 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:42,800 Speaker 1: they're going for is a grown man partnering, dancing with 299 00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:47,880 Speaker 1: a child, a child, a young girl. So when Sophie 300 00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:51,040 Speaker 1: was about fifteen, she even saw a surgeon about her body. 301 00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:55,240 Speaker 1: She hoped her breasts could be reduced. They didn't have 302 00:20:55,760 --> 00:20:59,480 Speaker 1: enough fat in my boobs to like reduce them, and 303 00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:01,520 Speaker 1: he's so he was like, well, I could just lose 304 00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:05,520 Speaker 1: weight sort of nonchalantly, and I put myself on a diet. 305 00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:09,200 Speaker 1: After that, it took over me. It got out of control. 306 00:21:11,119 --> 00:21:13,159 Speaker 1: After all of the years of pressure to be than, 307 00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:17,040 Speaker 1: something started to happen to Sophie where her eating behaviors 308 00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:19,520 Speaker 1: took on a life of their own. It was like 309 00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:22,879 Speaker 1: a force beyond her control, a force she couldn't stop. 310 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:27,000 Speaker 1: While recovering from an injury, Sophie says she lost a 311 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:29,919 Speaker 1: lot of weight in a short amount of time. I 312 00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:32,639 Speaker 1: got a lot of praise from the boys in the 313 00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:37,960 Speaker 1: school in partnering class to the school's credit, Sophie says, 314 00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:40,480 Speaker 1: her teachers pulled her aside because they were concerned about 315 00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:44,320 Speaker 1: her weight loss. They referred her to a nutritionist which 316 00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:48,439 Speaker 1: I saw, which I basically laughed off. I remember she 317 00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:50,960 Speaker 1: said I had to eat two thousand, five hundred calories 318 00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:53,400 Speaker 1: a day, and I literally laughed when she said that 319 00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:57,719 Speaker 1: because I was sustaining myself on so little that amount 320 00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:02,239 Speaker 1: seemed ridiculous. Instead of talking myself out of eating, in 321 00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:08,320 Speaker 1: my technique which I won't share, I made myself eat 322 00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:14,399 Speaker 1: like one bad food a day, and after the intervention, 323 00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:19,919 Speaker 1: I bottom muffin from the bake sale at my school. 324 00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:25,160 Speaker 1: It was a mini muffin, and I was really proud 325 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:27,320 Speaker 1: of myself. I eat half of it. I couldn't eat 326 00:22:27,359 --> 00:22:34,800 Speaker 1: the other half. I was scared for myself. I don't 327 00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:38,479 Speaker 1: want to underplay the severity of this. Eating disorders can 328 00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:42,959 Speaker 1: lead to heart failure, neurological problems, structural brain changes like 329 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:47,439 Speaker 1: the brain shrinking in size, intense emotional turmoil, and death. 330 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:51,959 Speaker 1: Anorexia is the most lethal mental health condition there is. 331 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:56,560 Speaker 1: It has suicide rates sixty times that of the general population. 332 00:22:57,200 --> 00:23:00,640 Speaker 1: That's also higher than for depression or bipole her disorder 333 00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:06,160 Speaker 1: or schizophrenia, but from Sophie's perspective, being thin would help 334 00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:13,360 Speaker 1: her achieve her goal. I got a ton of attention 335 00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:17,840 Speaker 1: from Peter Martin's that year. I remember him holding my 336 00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:21,600 Speaker 1: hand as I demonstrated in front of room. I felt 337 00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:25,119 Speaker 1: like I had a real shot at being in the company. 338 00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:30,160 Speaker 1: It seemed to be a good thing. But the problem 339 00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:34,400 Speaker 1: was I didn't know how to maintain it. I only 340 00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:37,679 Speaker 1: knew how to keep going. I never learned how to 341 00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:41,560 Speaker 1: eat properly at all. It was like binging or extraditing. 342 00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:48,440 Speaker 1: One day, a ballet mistress, the person who led company rehearsals, 343 00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:51,760 Speaker 1: pulled Sophie and a couple other students into an office. 344 00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:53,960 Speaker 1: She closed the door and there was like three of 345 00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:57,600 Speaker 1: us in the room or something, and she said, so 346 00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:02,879 Speaker 1: you probably know you've accepted. She said, Peter would like 347 00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:05,840 Speaker 1: you to join as an apprentice. That's the first step 348 00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:09,119 Speaker 1: towards gaining a permanent position in the company. It was 349 00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:12,359 Speaker 1: almost like I should have known it the way she 350 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:20,360 Speaker 1: said it. The way she spoke was in the speak 351 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:27,560 Speaker 1: of the theater. Basically, like nothing was direct, ever or explicit. 352 00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:32,160 Speaker 1: Every kind of communication was like sort of an afterthought, 353 00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:35,119 Speaker 1: and it was sort of a power that they held 354 00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:42,080 Speaker 1: over us. Maybe Sophie didn't get the praise or warmth 355 00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:44,320 Speaker 1: she'd craved, but at least she was going to be 356 00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:48,840 Speaker 1: an apprentice. At age seventeen, she'd given everything, her family, 357 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:53,679 Speaker 1: her home, her body to this cause and she'd been accepted. 358 00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:04,520 Speaker 1: Like Sophie, Katherine Morgan was also seventeen years old when 359 00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:06,959 Speaker 1: she got her apprenticeship with the New York City Ballet. 360 00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:10,280 Speaker 1: An apprenticeship is a huge deal, but it's still nerve 361 00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:13,040 Speaker 1: racking because there's no guarantee you'll become a full time 362 00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:15,679 Speaker 1: higher at the end of the year. It could be 363 00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:18,720 Speaker 1: the end of the road after years of work. So 364 00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:22,040 Speaker 1: two weeks in we're in company class. I'm doing Swan 365 00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:25,040 Speaker 1: Lake rehearsals. I'm Swan number seventeen on the left, you 366 00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:29,520 Speaker 1: know nobody and one of the principal dancers tears her 367 00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:32,919 Speaker 1: calf muscle in class and literally falls has to be 368 00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:35,280 Speaker 1: carried out of the room. Is very scary. A few 369 00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:38,280 Speaker 1: days later, Peter Martin shows up to teach class, and 370 00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:42,520 Speaker 1: whenever the director teaches, it's sort of a mini audition 371 00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:46,600 Speaker 1: because the director doesn't always teach, especially Peter. He wouldn't 372 00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:48,880 Speaker 1: teach weekly. He would just show up on the schedule, 373 00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:52,440 Speaker 1: and so when Peter Martin's shows up on the schedule, 374 00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:55,800 Speaker 1: the entire company is there. So you're in this room 375 00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:59,320 Speaker 1: of like ninety something people, and I remember just not 376 00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:02,200 Speaker 1: being able to do anything that day, Like I fell 377 00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:06,040 Speaker 1: out of every turn. I couldn't stay balanced to save 378 00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:07,679 Speaker 1: my life because I was still a baby. I had 379 00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:10,119 Speaker 1: been in the company maybe a week at this point, 380 00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:13,440 Speaker 1: and I thought any moment I could be fired, any moment. 381 00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:17,760 Speaker 1: After rehearsal, the ballet mistress beckoned Catherine over with a 382 00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:22,080 Speaker 1: curled finger. Catherine froze. She was like, Sean wants to 383 00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:24,359 Speaker 1: talk to you. Sean was like number two in command 384 00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:27,000 Speaker 1: to Peter, and he comes. Everybody says, so, as you know, 385 00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:30,359 Speaker 1: a couple days ago, the principal got hurt and I 386 00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:33,359 Speaker 1: was like, uh huh, and he said, you know, well 387 00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:38,080 Speaker 1: she's supposed to dance Juliette and Saratoga. Uh huh. Well, 388 00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:40,840 Speaker 1: we'd very much like for you to replace her. And 389 00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:44,119 Speaker 1: it was one of those like are you talking to me? 390 00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:46,560 Speaker 1: Did you see the rehearsal I just had? Did you 391 00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:50,800 Speaker 1: see me fall on my face? She'd just been given 392 00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:54,080 Speaker 1: the part of Juliette in Romeo and Juliette, and then 393 00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:56,040 Speaker 1: Peters comes running over like, did you tell her? Did 394 00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:59,199 Speaker 1: you tell her? Catherine was the only apprentice who was 395 00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:02,040 Speaker 1: being asked to this type of solo role. She was 396 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:05,119 Speaker 1: being singled out. It could be that moment when she 397 00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:13,159 Speaker 1: would turn into a star. Opening day finally came. It 398 00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:16,120 Speaker 1: was held in an outdoor Amphitheater in Saratoga, New York, 399 00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:19,640 Speaker 1: where the New York City Ballet performs every year. It's 400 00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:22,720 Speaker 1: a company's summer residency where Peter Martin's tries dancers in 401 00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:25,639 Speaker 1: different roles and make some of the critical decisions on 402 00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:28,720 Speaker 1: which dancers will make it. I remember being really nervous 403 00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:31,399 Speaker 1: because this was sort of do or die for me. 404 00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:35,159 Speaker 1: The stage wings were full of company dancers waiting to 405 00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:37,960 Speaker 1: see how she would do. And I just remember doing 406 00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:39,600 Speaker 1: my turn and all of a sudden seeing blood on 407 00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:42,640 Speaker 1: my costume and thinking, oh dear, what happened. And then 408 00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:44,840 Speaker 1: all of a sudden Tyler glaring at me, wiping blood 409 00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:47,600 Speaker 1: off his nose. He's halfway staying as we're dancing, you 410 00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:55,240 Speaker 1: actually in the face, but just keep going. But the 411 00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:58,920 Speaker 1: people she needed to impress didn't seem to mind. Peter 412 00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:01,119 Speaker 1: was pleased, and I remember one of the other ballet 413 00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:04,159 Speaker 1: masters who was very difficult to please, coming up to me, 414 00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:07,800 Speaker 1: going that was beautiful. That was beautiful. That's when I 415 00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:15,840 Speaker 1: knew I had it. After that, Catherine quickly moved through 416 00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:19,400 Speaker 1: the ranks from a core member to soloist, landing role 417 00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:23,119 Speaker 1: after role. It's funny because Peter Martins told me exactly 418 00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:25,920 Speaker 1: what it was. He. I know a lot of dancers 419 00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:28,199 Speaker 1: had issues with him. He was nothing but lovely to me. 420 00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:30,320 Speaker 1: I can't speak for anybody else, but he was always 421 00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:34,840 Speaker 1: very encouraging and mentoring to me. He said, you know, 422 00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:40,240 Speaker 1: you're not the technician, but you tell the story. You're 423 00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:42,680 Speaker 1: the artist. Your artistry is going to give you a career. 424 00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:47,520 Speaker 1: When Sophie, the other young dancer, joined the company, she 425 00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:49,760 Speaker 1: was just focused on how grateful she was to be there. 426 00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:52,719 Speaker 1: I felt like I just won the jackpot, you know, 427 00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:58,080 Speaker 1: being accepted. I was very proud because I was very 428 00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:00,000 Speaker 1: aware of the prestige of being a part of it. 429 00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:04,080 Speaker 1: One day, after rehearsal, the ballet mistress kept her late. 430 00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:08,640 Speaker 1: You know, my heart stopped. I was, you know, really 431 00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:11,880 Speaker 1: worried I was gonna lose my job. First because I 432 00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:16,800 Speaker 1: was still a new core member. She told Sophie, Peter says, 433 00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:20,400 Speaker 1: he notices you've gained weight. It's what Sophie calls her 434 00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:23,680 Speaker 1: first fat talk. A lot of professional dancers use the 435 00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:27,800 Speaker 1: term fat talk because they're so common. As a soloist 436 00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:31,160 Speaker 1: in the company, Catherine wasn't a mune either. It's never 437 00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:34,040 Speaker 1: we need you to lose weight, because they can get 438 00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:36,000 Speaker 1: in a lot of trouble saying that kind of stuff. 439 00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:41,240 Speaker 1: So there's different phrases. You need to get in shape. 440 00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:45,880 Speaker 1: Get in shape is the phrase. It's code for lose weight. 441 00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:52,880 Speaker 1: I don't think you're in your best shape. I think 442 00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:56,800 Speaker 1: I said I just got my period or something, and 443 00:29:56,920 --> 00:29:59,760 Speaker 1: she took that to mean that I had gotten it 444 00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:03,960 Speaker 1: for the first time recently, and I let her believe that. 445 00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:07,040 Speaker 1: But I thought that was really interesting that at nineteen 446 00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:09,680 Speaker 1: she thought it was normal for a dancer to have 447 00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:12,200 Speaker 1: her period for the first time. I mean, she's a woman, 448 00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:15,600 Speaker 1: like she knows that around the time of your period, 449 00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:21,120 Speaker 1: your body, you know, gets bloated, whatever, So she seemed 450 00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:25,560 Speaker 1: to have some understanding. I didn't feel like it. I 451 00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:28,040 Speaker 1: really didn't feel like it was coming from her. Actually, 452 00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:36,479 Speaker 1: she was the messager. I don't blame her. It's like, 453 00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:39,040 Speaker 1: I bet she didn't want to have those conversations. She 454 00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:44,720 Speaker 1: might not have agreed, but that was her job. The 455 00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:48,080 Speaker 1: same institution that had an intervention to address her severe 456 00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:52,000 Speaker 1: eating disorder only a few years prior was now telling 457 00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:56,000 Speaker 1: her she needed to lose weight. Everyone at the theater 458 00:30:56,120 --> 00:31:01,080 Speaker 1: was very cold emotionally, so I didn't expect any warmth. 459 00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:07,680 Speaker 1: I think I probably started crying and just sort of 460 00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:12,800 Speaker 1: really worried, and that was the first thought. I think, like, 461 00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:15,040 Speaker 1: I'm screwing this up, this is this is not good. 462 00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:25,920 Speaker 1: Catherine Morgan, the dancer cast as Juliet, was twenty one 463 00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:29,760 Speaker 1: when she landed another major role, this time Aurora and 464 00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:34,800 Speaker 1: Sleeping Beauty and Princess. Aurora is not only the crown 465 00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:38,000 Speaker 1: jewel role of ballet, but it is, in my opinion, 466 00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:42,480 Speaker 1: the hardest one. It is the most technically demanding, the 467 00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:45,720 Speaker 1: most physically demanding. You feel like you've run six marathons 468 00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:48,800 Speaker 1: by the time you're done with this ballet. And I 469 00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:51,440 Speaker 1: remember all the other Auroras were like, oh, I lose 470 00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:54,000 Speaker 1: like five pounds a show, and I'm like, so skinny 471 00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:56,920 Speaker 1: and Navada, and I remember thinking I'm kind of starting 472 00:31:56,920 --> 00:32:00,360 Speaker 1: to gain weight doing this bat it's really odd. I 473 00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:04,000 Speaker 1: just thought, okay, well, I don't lose five pounds a show. 474 00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:07,240 Speaker 1: I'd like gained a pound a show. I hadn't changed 475 00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:10,840 Speaker 1: my diet. But I started ballooning up and then I 476 00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:14,520 Speaker 1: started to get really, really tired. And Peter Martins was 477 00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:15,920 Speaker 1: doing a new ballet at the time, and we were 478 00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:18,680 Speaker 1: in the studio eight hours a day choreographing this thing, 479 00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:21,120 Speaker 1: and so I just thought, I don't have time to eat. 480 00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:25,480 Speaker 1: I can't get through this ballet, like what is happening 481 00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:27,800 Speaker 1: to me? And balot masters had started pulling me aside, 482 00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:31,160 Speaker 1: going are you aware that you are putting on weight? 483 00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:32,960 Speaker 1: And I wanted to go No. I had no idea. 484 00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:35,800 Speaker 1: You know, it's my job to stare at myself in 485 00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:38,120 Speaker 1: the mirror twenty four seven. But no, not a clue. 486 00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:42,080 Speaker 1: Of course I was aware, and then I would go 487 00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:44,640 Speaker 1: up to point or go up to balance, and my 488 00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:47,480 Speaker 1: muscles would give out. So it was like my body 489 00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:50,600 Speaker 1: was just starting to collapse. And I gained forty five 490 00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:54,240 Speaker 1: pounds in six weeks, barely eating anything, and people were going, 491 00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:59,840 Speaker 1: what is happening? Catherine says doctors were confused about her weight. Complaints. 492 00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:02,160 Speaker 1: Even after the weight gain, she was in a normal 493 00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:05,680 Speaker 1: weight range, but her standards as a ballerina were totally different. 494 00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:09,200 Speaker 1: She couldn't fit into the costumes and she struggled to 495 00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:17,600 Speaker 1: get through rehearsals and she didn't know why. So eight 496 00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:20,040 Speaker 1: doctors later and two years of battling this, I was 497 00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:24,480 Speaker 1: so miserable. So finally I was cast as Hermia in 498 00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:27,600 Speaker 1: A Midsummer Night's Dream, which is one of the two lovers, 499 00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:34,080 Speaker 1: as they say in Midsummer and Peter came to watch 500 00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:37,479 Speaker 1: my rehearsal and he said nothing, and he said, let's go. 501 00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:39,480 Speaker 1: Let's go talk. So we went to his office and 502 00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:41,959 Speaker 1: he was just like, how are you feeling? And I 503 00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:44,200 Speaker 1: had lost it. I just burst into tears and I 504 00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:46,120 Speaker 1: was like, I can't do this anymore. I'm so ill 505 00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:49,960 Speaker 1: and sick and huge. And I said, Peter, I think 506 00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:52,840 Speaker 1: I need to like not come back next year. I 507 00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:55,080 Speaker 1: think I need to let my contract run out, go 508 00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:57,880 Speaker 1: home and get well. Because the pressure of trying to 509 00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:00,200 Speaker 1: be in the New York City Ballet and I was 510 00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:03,640 Speaker 1: now a soloist by this point, I was like, I 511 00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:06,520 Speaker 1: can't do this anymore. I'm on this hamster wheel of misery, 512 00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:08,319 Speaker 1: and he just gave me a huge hugg and he 513 00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:10,880 Speaker 1: was like, I knew you were smart. Put your health first. 514 00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:16,600 Speaker 1: There'll always be a place for you here. But in 515 00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:22,360 Speaker 1: the ballet world, as health ever first, Catherine would have 516 00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:25,640 Speaker 1: to make a choice. She went home to her parents' house, 517 00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:39,439 Speaker 1: but things would never be the same again. Year after year, 518 00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:44,080 Speaker 1: Sophie worked diligently as a core to ballet ballerina, but 519 00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:47,120 Speaker 1: as time We're on, she wanted more opportunities to stretch 520 00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:50,920 Speaker 1: herself creatively. She kept being put in more traditional ballets 521 00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:54,719 Speaker 1: when she created something else. She wanted to dance Balancie's 522 00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:59,280 Speaker 1: angular abstract works as Vinsky ballets, where movement and music 523 00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:02,560 Speaker 1: ruled what they referred to as the black and white ballets, 524 00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:06,879 Speaker 1: less story, more abstraction. She scheduled a meeting with Peter 525 00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:09,840 Speaker 1: Martin's to ask if she could study some of those roles. 526 00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:12,399 Speaker 1: She might never perform them, but at least she could learn. 527 00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:15,920 Speaker 1: Even like walking down the hallway to his office, you 528 00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:19,160 Speaker 1: know made you like stressed out. You know, it's like 529 00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:22,640 Speaker 1: going to see the wizard. I know. Peter's office was 530 00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:26,360 Speaker 1: like a relic. It's like a tiny built in sofa 531 00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:29,080 Speaker 1: that looked like it had been built in like the seventies, 532 00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:32,640 Speaker 1: and it probably had been. And Gold's carpet, the whole 533 00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:35,279 Speaker 1: theater was that way, like it hadn't been touched since 534 00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:39,399 Speaker 1: Balanchine's era. Peter walked out from behind his desk. He 535 00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:44,480 Speaker 1: was fairly warm, and he came like physically closer to me, 536 00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:49,520 Speaker 1: and I felt heard, and you know, I was terrified 537 00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:52,560 Speaker 1: and really nervous and stuff. But I said the things 538 00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:56,200 Speaker 1: and he responded to it like okay, like why don't 539 00:35:56,200 --> 00:35:58,520 Speaker 1: you come back with like some specific roles and ideas? 540 00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:02,520 Speaker 1: And I felt very encouraged. But when the casting and 541 00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:05,520 Speaker 1: rehearsal schedule for the next Black and White ballet was posted, 542 00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:10,120 Speaker 1: Sophie didn't make the list. I wasn't even called to understudy, 543 00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:14,640 Speaker 1: as if we hadn't ever spoken. Then, in the economic 544 00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:17,719 Speaker 1: downturn of two thousand and nine, there was buzz about 545 00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:21,320 Speaker 1: a possible mass layoff, and there was a lot of anxiety. 546 00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:26,279 Speaker 1: I didn't want to believe that it was true. One afternoon, 547 00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:29,360 Speaker 1: Sophie was hanging out with her boyfriend on the Lower 548 00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:33,279 Speaker 1: east Side, Sophie's stomping grounds on her days off. She 549 00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:35,719 Speaker 1: was walking down the sidewalk When she got a call 550 00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:39,040 Speaker 1: from Peter's personal assistant. She didn't say what it was. 551 00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:41,080 Speaker 1: She just said, Peter would like to meet with you, 552 00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:44,080 Speaker 1: and he I never had a meeting where Peter called 553 00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:47,080 Speaker 1: the meeting before, so I knew exactly what it was about. 554 00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:49,160 Speaker 1: I knew that I was going to be laid off, 555 00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:56,880 Speaker 1: and I literally fell to the pavement. I was just 556 00:36:57,040 --> 00:37:01,960 Speaker 1: completely distraught. I felt like I'd just been diagnosed with 557 00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:05,080 Speaker 1: some terminal illness. It felt like, you know, there was 558 00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:12,040 Speaker 1: an end to the sidewalk. Basically, I just remember cars 559 00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:15,759 Speaker 1: going by, people going on with their lives, and this 560 00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:22,080 Speaker 1: abyss that opened up before me. It felt like facing death. 561 00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:24,440 Speaker 1: I don't mean to be dramatic, but that's really what 562 00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:29,520 Speaker 1: it felt like. I didn't know another way to live. 563 00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:33,160 Speaker 1: I didn't know what was next at all. I didn't 564 00:37:33,320 --> 00:37:36,879 Speaker 1: ever consider a life after dance. That's what we were 565 00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:40,520 Speaker 1: sort of taught to do, because how could you possibly 566 00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:45,680 Speaker 1: give yourself completely if you're always looking ahead. They had 567 00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:49,120 Speaker 1: the meeting, Peter stuck to his line. They didn't have 568 00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:52,959 Speaker 1: the funds, so if he danced several more months until 569 00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:58,080 Speaker 1: her contract ran out, which was really really difficult. I 570 00:37:58,200 --> 00:37:59,880 Speaker 1: was just sort of like went through the motions and 571 00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:04,240 Speaker 1: did as little as possible. I was extremely upset and mad. 572 00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:06,120 Speaker 1: It was hard to like look people in the eyes, 573 00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:10,320 Speaker 1: hard to like just navigate the day in the theater. 574 00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:15,400 Speaker 1: I just want to stop. You know, people are surprised 575 00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:17,600 Speaker 1: why I didn't want to continue dancing after all that. 576 00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:22,000 Speaker 1: Why would I want to continue dancing in the company 577 00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:29,280 Speaker 1: or at all at all? Sophie would never dance professionally again. 578 00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:33,600 Speaker 1: She left the company with lots of questions, but there 579 00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:36,920 Speaker 1: was one she couldn't ask, too afraid to make it explicit. 580 00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:47,600 Speaker 1: Was it my body? You know? I blamed myself. I 581 00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:49,720 Speaker 1: felt like a failure because I thought it was my fault. 582 00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:53,799 Speaker 1: After Catherine Morgan left the company to focus on her 583 00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:57,280 Speaker 1: health and these mysterious symptoms and weight gain she'd been experiencing, 584 00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:00,520 Speaker 1: she went home to her parents house and alab Amma. 585 00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:03,800 Speaker 1: She still felt tired all of the time, the symptoms 586 00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:08,880 Speaker 1: hadn't subsided, hair loss, weight gain, and still no answers. 587 00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:11,640 Speaker 1: Part of your identity is a dancers how you look 588 00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:14,560 Speaker 1: in the mirror, and it's also how what makes you 589 00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:16,920 Speaker 1: feel good about yourself or not. It's what gets you 590 00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:22,160 Speaker 1: roles or not. And usually your job as a dancer 591 00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:26,360 Speaker 1: is to be criticized. To fix it. Nope, your knees 592 00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:28,439 Speaker 1: not straight, Nope, put your feet. So you get into 593 00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:31,239 Speaker 1: this mentality that everything is fixable. I just have to 594 00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:34,120 Speaker 1: do my part. If it's not right, it's because I'm 595 00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:36,799 Speaker 1: not doing it right. And she had no fix for 596 00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:39,720 Speaker 1: the body she saw staring back at her in the mirror. 597 00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:43,920 Speaker 1: My only definition of success was being a skinny ballerina 598 00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:45,520 Speaker 1: on the stage of New York City Ballet, and so 599 00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:49,160 Speaker 1: once that was taken from me, I had nothing. I 600 00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:53,440 Speaker 1: had absolutely nothing. I lost completely who I was, I 601 00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:56,960 Speaker 1: had no outside life. I felt totally worthless because it 602 00:39:57,000 --> 00:40:01,239 Speaker 1: was my identity. I committed to it at fifteen and 603 00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:03,640 Speaker 1: I knew nothing else. And this I felt like, Oh, 604 00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:06,719 Speaker 1: I'm letting my younger self down because I sacrificed so 605 00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:10,960 Speaker 1: much in my childhood to do this, you know, like 606 00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:13,480 Speaker 1: I didn't go to prom, I didn't go to high 607 00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:16,120 Speaker 1: school graduation, I didn't go to sleepovers, I didn't get 608 00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:18,360 Speaker 1: you know, because I was so committed to this and 609 00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:20,040 Speaker 1: then to have it fall apart, I felt like I 610 00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:23,960 Speaker 1: was letting myself down. One day, she stood at the 611 00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:27,279 Speaker 1: top of her parents' stairs on the second floor, and 612 00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:30,720 Speaker 1: a thought flew through her mind. I had that flash 613 00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:32,800 Speaker 1: moment of what would happen if I just threw myself 614 00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:36,640 Speaker 1: down the stairs and ended this? Because it was it was, 615 00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:40,759 Speaker 1: I was so unhappy. There wasn't one thing that helped 616 00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:43,520 Speaker 1: her get beyond the pain and depression or filled the 617 00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:46,600 Speaker 1: void that ballet left in her life. She got a 618 00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:51,960 Speaker 1: counselor a dog, and finally a diagnosis how she motos 619 00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:55,919 Speaker 1: thyroid itis, an autoimmune disease that affects the thyroid, which 620 00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:59,399 Speaker 1: helped her manager symptoms, but what really helped the most 621 00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:03,440 Speaker 1: was distant. For nine years, she stayed away from the stage. 622 00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:07,000 Speaker 1: So with ballet, I was literally in a twenty four 623 00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:09,279 Speaker 1: to seven until my illness hit, and then I got 624 00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:11,520 Speaker 1: out of the system for a long time. And then 625 00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:16,040 Speaker 1: suddenly you're like, oh, I was able to see the 626 00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:19,680 Speaker 1: kind of weird quirks of the ballet world that I 627 00:41:19,719 --> 00:41:21,920 Speaker 1: had never seen before because I was just in it 628 00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:25,920 Speaker 1: and didn't know of any other way. You hear from 629 00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:28,360 Speaker 1: the people who were not in the professional ballet world, 630 00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:30,640 Speaker 1: and I remember a couple of people being like, well, 631 00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:33,839 Speaker 1: why why is it like that? And then you start 632 00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:36,440 Speaker 1: to go well, I don't know why, and it was 633 00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:40,360 Speaker 1: being out of the professional company world for a while 634 00:41:40,719 --> 00:41:44,600 Speaker 1: started me to question things. You start to realize tho, oh, 635 00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:48,279 Speaker 1: these people are brainwashed. What are the points of brainwashing 636 00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:53,680 Speaker 1: that ballet dancer's experience that you have to starve and 637 00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:56,600 Speaker 1: that you have to have a certain look to you. 638 00:41:57,520 --> 00:41:59,720 Speaker 1: Another one is that you must push through an injury. 639 00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:03,080 Speaker 1: I see so many danswers push through injuries because they 640 00:42:03,080 --> 00:42:06,000 Speaker 1: are so terrified to say something, because they don't want 641 00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:07,759 Speaker 1: to get in trouble, or they don't want to be 642 00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:10,560 Speaker 1: deemed as lazy, or they don't want to lose a spot. 643 00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:14,439 Speaker 1: So many teachers again operate on scare tactic and well, 644 00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:16,520 Speaker 1: if you can't do it, someone else will. We have 645 00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:18,719 Speaker 1: four more people in line. I'll put your understudy on. 646 00:42:19,520 --> 00:42:21,640 Speaker 1: I think it's also this thing of the person in 647 00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:25,320 Speaker 1: the front of the room is the do or die dictator. 648 00:42:25,719 --> 00:42:28,759 Speaker 1: The teacher of the director is literally God, and you 649 00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:32,200 Speaker 1: must do what they say at all times without question, 650 00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:36,960 Speaker 1: even if the step is being taught wrong or the 651 00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:40,640 Speaker 1: choreography is wrong. You're scared to speak up out of 652 00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:45,000 Speaker 1: fear of your job. It's sometimes like well, you know, 653 00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:49,520 Speaker 1: you should be grateful to be here, be seen and 654 00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:55,480 Speaker 1: not heard. So dancers have no say, no control. And 655 00:42:55,680 --> 00:42:59,280 Speaker 1: really it's a career based on other people's opinions, literally 656 00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:02,120 Speaker 1: other people opinions, and that's why it's so hard. It's 657 00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:05,120 Speaker 1: not the Olympics that's decided by who ran the fastest, 658 00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:09,560 Speaker 1: you know, it is one hundred percent someone else's opinion, 659 00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:18,160 Speaker 1: which means then that you have to constantly please yep. Gradually, 660 00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:21,440 Speaker 1: Catherine got back into the studio, this time on her 661 00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:26,880 Speaker 1: own terms. Suddenly, when I wasn't trying to impress anybody 662 00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:30,120 Speaker 1: being served to work, that's when I could finally like 663 00:43:30,640 --> 00:43:34,200 Speaker 1: dance again. And when she learned Miami City Ballet was 664 00:43:34,239 --> 00:43:38,200 Speaker 1: looking for dancers, she auditioned. It was in her wheelhouse 665 00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:41,640 Speaker 1: because the company was founded by a balanching dancer. They 666 00:43:41,680 --> 00:43:47,360 Speaker 1: frequently perform his choreography. After four days of auditions, Catherine 667 00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:50,600 Speaker 1: was offered a soloist position with the company. She was 668 00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:52,920 Speaker 1: frank with the director, I'm never going to be the 669 00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:54,799 Speaker 1: thinnest one in the room, and I was told, oh, well, 670 00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:56,960 Speaker 1: don't worry about it. You look absolutely beautiful. We liked 671 00:43:56,960 --> 00:43:59,800 Speaker 1: that you're different. She thought, maybe this time, she wouldn't 672 00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:03,640 Speaker 1: have to choose between health and ballet. Her first performance 673 00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:08,680 Speaker 1: back was in a balanching ballet called Slaughter on Tenth Avenue, 674 00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:13,799 Speaker 1: which was so much fun. I've never had more fun 675 00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:17,239 Speaker 1: on stage. You play a nineteen twenties strip tease girl 676 00:44:18,040 --> 00:44:19,680 Speaker 1: and you're on you know, it's just it's just so 677 00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:26,120 Speaker 1: much fun. Catherine was dancing every day. She'd reclaimed her identity. 678 00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:29,960 Speaker 1: She had left the pain of disappointment behind. It felt amazing. 679 00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:33,040 Speaker 1: But at a half hour call to one of my shows, 680 00:44:33,600 --> 00:44:36,520 Speaker 1: I was called in and I was the whole spiel again. 681 00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:39,560 Speaker 1: You're not looking as you should, you're not in shape, 682 00:44:40,120 --> 00:44:44,799 Speaker 1: have a good show. It was became very apparent to 683 00:44:44,840 --> 00:44:52,359 Speaker 1: me that the ballet world had not changed. So at 684 00:44:52,360 --> 00:44:54,320 Speaker 1: that point I was like, all right, I'm going to 685 00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:57,960 Speaker 1: show them stupid. Went back to seventeen year old brain. 686 00:44:58,320 --> 00:45:00,880 Speaker 1: After having worked through, you know, a decade of what 687 00:45:00,960 --> 00:45:04,560 Speaker 1: I worked through, I stopped eating and as you can imagine, 688 00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:07,279 Speaker 1: that didn't go well. Three days later I strained my 689 00:45:07,320 --> 00:45:10,359 Speaker 1: calf muscle in a knockcracker rehearsal, which can happen when 690 00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:13,799 Speaker 1: you're under fed. Then I was very quickly taken out 691 00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:16,320 Speaker 1: of every ballet I was learning for the rest of 692 00:45:16,360 --> 00:45:20,080 Speaker 1: the season, and it just sort of spiraled and wasn't good. 693 00:45:21,360 --> 00:45:24,719 Speaker 1: Then all of her old autoimmune condition symptoms flared up. 694 00:45:25,840 --> 00:45:27,839 Speaker 1: The line that was said to me that I will 695 00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:30,080 Speaker 1: never forget as long as I live. I know you're 696 00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:33,200 Speaker 1: supposedly this inspiration to all these people, but I don't 697 00:45:33,200 --> 00:45:35,359 Speaker 1: think you can be a true inspiration until you're back 698 00:45:35,360 --> 00:45:37,760 Speaker 1: on the stage looking like a ballerina in point shoes. 699 00:45:38,440 --> 00:45:42,400 Speaker 1: And I was just like hump. At that point, I 700 00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:46,399 Speaker 1: knew I was done, and she left all the things 701 00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:48,360 Speaker 1: that had been said to me. I was back in 702 00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:50,480 Speaker 1: that place of I literally couldn't look at myself in 703 00:45:50,520 --> 00:46:05,120 Speaker 1: the mirror. Hi, everybody, So I have a bit of 704 00:46:05,160 --> 00:46:08,279 Speaker 1: a more serious video for you guys today, as you 705 00:46:08,320 --> 00:46:12,200 Speaker 1: can probably tell. Rather than spiral again, she went public 706 00:46:12,239 --> 00:46:14,880 Speaker 1: with her story on her YouTube channel along when I 707 00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:17,960 Speaker 1: kind of don't even know how I'm gonna go about this, 708 00:46:18,000 --> 00:46:20,120 Speaker 1: to be honest, it's a bit daunting to me, as 709 00:46:20,480 --> 00:46:22,080 Speaker 1: a lot of you have done yours. The author we 710 00:46:22,160 --> 00:46:25,759 Speaker 1: talked to earlier, Chloe Angel, heard about it and it 711 00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:27,640 Speaker 1: was a huge deal. I mean, she'd been out of 712 00:46:27,680 --> 00:46:31,719 Speaker 1: professional ballet for years and there was a lot of fanfare, 713 00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:34,680 Speaker 1: there was a lot of publicity around it, and then 714 00:46:34,880 --> 00:46:38,720 Speaker 1: they wouldn't put her on stage. To Chloe, it confirmed 715 00:46:38,719 --> 00:46:42,680 Speaker 1: what she already knew. The problem runs deep. There is 716 00:46:42,719 --> 00:46:46,520 Speaker 1: this suite of euphemisms and code words that is being 717 00:46:46,560 --> 00:46:52,160 Speaker 1: delivered to dances, and most of them understand what it means. 718 00:46:52,840 --> 00:46:56,520 Speaker 1: But it's being couched in terms of health and length 719 00:46:56,840 --> 00:46:59,760 Speaker 1: and getting fit and getting in shape and getting toned. 720 00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:02,880 Speaker 1: But what you're asking is for most dances is not 721 00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:10,200 Speaker 1: a healthy outcome. And it's a mind fuck. Who decided this? 722 00:47:11,520 --> 00:47:16,360 Speaker 1: Who decided you know that you have to have twig 723 00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:20,000 Speaker 1: like arms or legs? Did the skies open up and 724 00:47:20,160 --> 00:47:22,719 Speaker 1: the ballet god said this is how it host to be. No, 725 00:47:23,360 --> 00:47:28,360 Speaker 1: it's just what we've all been programmed. I didn't understand 726 00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:31,560 Speaker 1: that you're worthy because you're a human first, not because 727 00:47:31,600 --> 00:47:36,399 Speaker 1: you're a dancer. Instead of having a full time company job, 728 00:47:36,760 --> 00:47:40,360 Speaker 1: Catherine found another way to dance. She freelances as a soloist, 729 00:47:40,520 --> 00:47:44,560 Speaker 1: teaches ballet and coaches dancers, and when our videos came 730 00:47:44,560 --> 00:47:47,600 Speaker 1: out in twenty twenty, dancer after dancer told her they 731 00:47:47,600 --> 00:47:52,080 Speaker 1: had similar experiences. Other dancers have also gone public, like 732 00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:54,600 Speaker 1: a New York City Ballet principle and an Instagram live 733 00:47:54,680 --> 00:47:57,880 Speaker 1: last year, or another soloist who wrote that Peter Martin's 734 00:47:57,880 --> 00:48:00,520 Speaker 1: pointed from her knee to her butt and said she 735 00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:05,160 Speaker 1: didn't fit in from there to there. She'd struggled with bulimia, 736 00:48:05,560 --> 00:48:09,400 Speaker 1: and she ended up getting liposuction on her thighs. And 737 00:48:09,440 --> 00:48:12,480 Speaker 1: it's not just scrutiny from within the company, it's everywhere. 738 00:48:12,960 --> 00:48:16,520 Speaker 1: Critics set the tone too. For example, a dance critic 739 00:48:16,520 --> 00:48:18,319 Speaker 1: at The New York Times mocked the weight of a 740 00:48:18,360 --> 00:48:21,560 Speaker 1: principal dancer in a review after she'd been open about 741 00:48:21,560 --> 00:48:25,080 Speaker 1: her eating disorder. He said she'd had one sugar plum 742 00:48:25,120 --> 00:48:30,280 Speaker 1: too many. He defended himself afterward, he said, quote, ballet 743 00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:36,080 Speaker 1: demands sacrifice in its pursuit of widely accepted ideals of beauty. 744 00:48:36,120 --> 00:48:38,880 Speaker 1: If you want to make your appearance irrelevant to criticism, 745 00:48:39,200 --> 00:48:42,320 Speaker 1: do not choose ballet as a career. I am severe, 746 00:48:42,560 --> 00:48:46,480 Speaker 1: but ballet, as dancers know, is more so. End quote. 747 00:48:48,800 --> 00:48:52,400 Speaker 1: The idea that you want really a ballet dancer until 748 00:48:52,640 --> 00:48:57,440 Speaker 1: you look like a ballet dancer is really pervasive. You know, 749 00:48:57,640 --> 00:49:03,880 Speaker 1: if you are uncomfortable watching at us bigger than standard ballet. Dancer, 750 00:49:04,280 --> 00:49:07,879 Speaker 1: do ballet. If it doesn't look right to you, that 751 00:49:08,000 --> 00:49:09,879 Speaker 1: is something that you need to sit with and think 752 00:49:09,880 --> 00:49:13,040 Speaker 1: about and think about why, and think about the cost, 753 00:49:14,239 --> 00:49:21,319 Speaker 1: the human cost, the physical, psychological, emotional cost of that 754 00:49:21,440 --> 00:49:24,240 Speaker 1: kind of gate keeping of who doesn't get to dance, 755 00:49:25,000 --> 00:49:28,200 Speaker 1: of who has to suffer in order to dance. It's 756 00:49:28,239 --> 00:49:32,680 Speaker 1: so deep seated, it's so harmful, and it's just completely unjustifiable. 757 00:49:34,280 --> 00:49:36,680 Speaker 1: So often the idea of the line is talked about 758 00:49:36,719 --> 00:49:40,399 Speaker 1: like this geometrical fact, like an artistic truth that can't 759 00:49:40,400 --> 00:49:43,359 Speaker 1: be argued with. But the older I get, the more 760 00:49:43,400 --> 00:49:47,520 Speaker 1: I question that, I start to think, Yeah, I have 761 00:49:47,719 --> 00:49:51,560 Speaker 1: been brainwashed. I've been so inundated with images of thin 762 00:49:51,640 --> 00:49:54,719 Speaker 1: bodies dancing ballet that I eventually believed that that was 763 00:49:54,800 --> 00:49:59,040 Speaker 1: objectively better. On a gut level, I've been programmed to 764 00:49:59,080 --> 00:50:01,920 Speaker 1: think certain body, these make lines that are more beautiful 765 00:50:02,000 --> 00:50:05,960 Speaker 1: than others, that a flowing arm that curves is beautiful, 766 00:50:06,560 --> 00:50:10,280 Speaker 1: but a curvy body is not. I don't believe that anymore, 767 00:50:11,120 --> 00:50:13,920 Speaker 1: because I've been working to deprogram myself for more than 768 00:50:13,960 --> 00:50:22,359 Speaker 1: a decade. Is the idea of the line, I mean, 769 00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:28,160 Speaker 1: how real is it? Even? I mean is the line better? 770 00:50:29,440 --> 00:50:33,640 Speaker 1: And my answer is who cares? Because people are suffering. 771 00:50:34,920 --> 00:50:38,760 Speaker 1: The audience having a good experience of ballet and enjoying 772 00:50:38,760 --> 00:50:42,840 Speaker 1: what they see on stage is dependent on that line, 773 00:50:43,480 --> 00:50:47,880 Speaker 1: and that line is dependent on people starving and people 774 00:50:47,960 --> 00:50:52,320 Speaker 1: collapsing in the wings from exhaustion, and people getting early 775 00:50:52,360 --> 00:50:57,640 Speaker 1: on set austerea porosis and bone fractures and long term 776 00:50:57,719 --> 00:51:04,560 Speaker 1: muscles skills will damage, rexia and body dysmorphia, and a 777 00:51:04,880 --> 00:51:09,000 Speaker 1: permanently messed up relationship with food and with exercise and 778 00:51:09,160 --> 00:51:13,080 Speaker 1: early retirement and the kind of disillusionment that a lot 779 00:51:13,120 --> 00:51:43,040 Speaker 1: of former dances feel. Who gives a shit about the line? 780 00:51:45,800 --> 00:51:50,600 Speaker 1: Next time? On the Turning? Imagine as a black ballet 781 00:51:50,680 --> 00:51:54,120 Speaker 1: student at the time, hearing that that was the thought 782 00:51:55,640 --> 00:51:58,840 Speaker 1: a ballerina should be the color of appealed apple, and 783 00:51:58,960 --> 00:52:01,200 Speaker 1: I remember thinking, well, if you leave a peeled apple 784 00:52:01,239 --> 00:52:03,600 Speaker 1: out on the counter four minute, it turns brown anyway, 785 00:52:03,760 --> 00:52:11,080 Speaker 1: So what does that mean? The Turning is a production 786 00:52:11,120 --> 00:52:15,000 Speaker 1: of Rococo Punch and iHeart Podcasts. It's written and produced 787 00:52:15,040 --> 00:52:18,840 Speaker 1: by Alan Lance Lesser and Me. Our story editor is 788 00:52:18,880 --> 00:52:23,440 Speaker 1: Emily Foreman. Mixing and sound designed by James Trout. Jessica 789 00:52:23,520 --> 00:52:27,719 Speaker 1: Carissa is our assistant producer. Andrea Swahe is our digital producer. 790 00:52:28,160 --> 00:52:33,800 Speaker 1: Fact checking by Andrea Lopez Crusado. Special thanks to Chloe Angel, 791 00:52:33,880 --> 00:52:36,880 Speaker 1: who you heard from today. Her incredible book about the 792 00:52:36,920 --> 00:52:39,480 Speaker 1: world of ballet is called Turning Point, How a new 793 00:52:39,520 --> 00:52:48,680 Speaker 1: generation of dancers is saving Ballet from itself. Our executive 794 00:52:48,719 --> 00:52:52,120 Speaker 1: producers are John Paratti and Jessica Alpert at Rococo Punch 795 00:52:52,520 --> 00:52:55,719 Speaker 1: and I Get Trina Norbelle and Nikki Etour at iHeart Podcasts. 796 00:52:57,120 --> 00:52:59,640 Speaker 1: For photos and more details on the series, follow us 797 00:52:59,640 --> 00:53:03,279 Speaker 1: Ongram at Rococo Punch and you can reach out via 798 00:53:03,360 --> 00:53:08,920 Speaker 1: email the Turning at Rococo Punch dot com. I'm Erica Lance. 799 00:53:09,360 --> 00:53:10,200 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.