WEBVTT - Ditching net zero to win the climate argument

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<v Speaker 1>Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. Dale Vince is a

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<v Speaker 1>lightning rod, a green lightning rod. He's been called Britain's

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<v Speaker 1>most powerful hippie. He's the founder of a series of

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<v Speaker 1>companies building green technologies. Ecotricity is the biggest of them

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<v Speaker 1>and it provides green power to nearly two hundred thousand customers.

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<v Speaker 1>He is also a major donor to the Labor Party,

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<v Speaker 1>which has just elected a new leader and as a result,

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<v Speaker 1>Andy Burnham is now the UK's sixth Prime Minister in

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<v Speaker 1>ten years. This is zero. I'm akshadrati this week. Can

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<v Speaker 1>a new UK government make energy cheap? Welcome to Zero, Dale.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, thank you. I'm happy to be here, actually in

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<v Speaker 2>this building. Your building is stunning. It's my second time.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm still stunned.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, we've also been tot it's one of the most

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<v Speaker 1>sustainable buildings in the world, which is great fair play.

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<v Speaker 1>So you're a major donor to the Labor Party and

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<v Speaker 1>a big supporter of the former Prime minister at Keir Starmer.

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<v Speaker 1>You expected him to go on to win a second term,

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<v Speaker 1>but you know couldn't finish even the first one. I

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<v Speaker 1>don't want to spend a lot of time dissecting all

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<v Speaker 1>his premiership, but from an energy and climate perspective, let's

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<v Speaker 1>start with what did he get right?

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, but versus to say I didn't expect him to

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<v Speaker 2>get the second term, but I very much hoped you would,

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<v Speaker 2>and I think, you know, it did begin to unravel

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<v Speaker 2>and it did begin to look very unlikely. What did

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<v Speaker 2>he get right? I think the big push for green

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<v Speaker 2>energy through the AR seven AR six lots of contracts

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<v Speaker 2>for difference for green energy, has propelled as towards one

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<v Speaker 2>hundred percent green on the grid, and we might be

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<v Speaker 2>four years away from that. So that's a good thing.

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<v Speaker 2>I think the intention to change planning laws for onshore wind,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm not sure that it actually went through or in

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<v Speaker 2>a form that is useful because there was a ban

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<v Speaker 2>and I'm not sure it's been unbanned in a completely

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<v Speaker 2>decent way. Yeah, So on the energy front, really I'm

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<v Speaker 2>stuck with the big push for green energy. Are we

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<v Speaker 2>going to talk about the bad things next?

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<v Speaker 1>Yes? So the ER six AR seven is are the

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<v Speaker 1>auctions that ran for offshore wind, and the contracts for

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<v Speaker 1>difference is really a price that is fixed, so it's

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<v Speaker 1>a subsidized price. You make electricity at a price higher

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<v Speaker 1>than the government earns. If you make electricity at a

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<v Speaker 1>price lower, the government fills you up with the subsidies.

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<v Speaker 1>And that's in a way one of the driving routes

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<v Speaker 1>to try and stabilize what has been a pretty volatile

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<v Speaker 1>electricity market here in the UK. But let's come to

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<v Speaker 1>the back.

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<v Speaker 2>Can I comment on that, because first I say it's

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<v Speaker 2>not a subsidy, it is a fixed price and as

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<v Speaker 2>you say, you can win and you can lose, and

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<v Speaker 2>overall the government have been paying into this, but of

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<v Speaker 2>course when there's an energy crisis then we're winning because

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<v Speaker 2>that's a fixed price. And it's been used to minimize

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<v Speaker 2>the rate of return that investors in offshore wind need

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<v Speaker 2>because the risk is taken away. You can fix your return,

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<v Speaker 2>the risk comes down.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, and it's been a very popular policy. Other countries

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<v Speaker 1>have copied it. But let's come to what went wrong

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<v Speaker 1>on climate and energy.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, in terms of policies, a series of commitments to

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<v Speaker 2>net zero policies, so say heat pump subsidy fund of

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<v Speaker 2>about three billion pounds, are kind of overwhelming focus on

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<v Speaker 2>heat pumps, which is a mistake for a bunch of

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<v Speaker 2>reasons rich I'll I'll go into in a minute if

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<v Speaker 2>you want com captured storage twenty two billion committed over

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<v Speaker 2>twenty five years. Incredible summer of money, incredible period of

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<v Speaker 2>time for a technology that's more than questionable in terms

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<v Speaker 2>of what it can do for us to help us

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<v Speaker 2>get to net zero and all of that kind of stuff.

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<v Speaker 2>We've got other subsidies for people buying electric cars, which

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<v Speaker 2>very much like the heat pump subsidies, a middle class

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<v Speaker 2>subsidy stuff for people with money. If you can afford

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<v Speaker 2>to buy a new car, it's only one percent of

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<v Speaker 2>Britons that do that every year, then the government will

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<v Speaker 2>give some money to help you buy one. Five million

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<v Speaker 2>Brits are in energy poverty. Meanwhile, getting no help. If

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<v Speaker 2>you want a heat pump, which is fairly exotic technology

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<v Speaker 2>for heating, the government will give you eight thousand pounds,

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<v Speaker 2>but you have to top it up with eight thousand

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<v Speaker 2>pounds of your own. So it's for wealthy, relatively wealthy people,

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<v Speaker 2>and you know they put your energy bills up and

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<v Speaker 2>stuff like that. So what I'm coming to is to

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<v Speaker 2>say this also, I think net zero has become toxified,

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<v Speaker 2>aided completely by the right wing media and politicians who've

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<v Speaker 2>turned it into a very negative term, but they haven't

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<v Speaker 2>done it alone. I think des Nez have created this

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<v Speaker 2>situation where most people think that net zero is not

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<v Speaker 2>for them, it's about giving stuff up, it's for people

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<v Speaker 2>with money. There's a detachment now and a split in

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<v Speaker 2>the political consensus to the extent that party's on the

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<v Speaker 2>right now are calling for the ending of net zero

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<v Speaker 2>and the redrilling of the North Sea for fossil fuels.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm going to come to all the series of those things,

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<v Speaker 1>but let's start with the main problem here. You talked

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<v Speaker 1>about how there's been this break in the political consensus

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<v Speaker 1>on climate for the first time really in a way

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<v Speaker 1>that is very American style. The right does not want

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<v Speaker 1>anything on climate, and the left wants a lot on climate.

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<v Speaker 1>But the issue for people, at least when you run

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<v Speaker 1>the polls is people want climate action. The thing that

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<v Speaker 1>people are really worried about is energy bills. So what

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<v Speaker 1>do you think Andy Burnham as new Prime minister can

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<v Speaker 1>do on energy bills that neither Starma, Reeves or Miliban

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<v Speaker 1>could have done.

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<v Speaker 2>Great question. I think I would say about polling that

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<v Speaker 2>most people still want action on climate change, but they

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<v Speaker 2>don't want to pay for it right, and particularly that's

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<v Speaker 2>true of the people that are struggling with the cost

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<v Speaker 2>of living crisis. The Desne's budget that I believe has

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<v Speaker 2>been misappropriated, mis mispointed. I mean it hasn't all been

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<v Speaker 2>spent yet, is what I'm trying to say. But it's

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<v Speaker 2>fifty billion pounds that I think will be wasted, and

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<v Speaker 2>it's an opportunity for Andy Burnham's come to take that

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<v Speaker 2>money back and spend on more imediate priorities for people

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<v Speaker 2>in our economy. But the biggest thing they can do

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<v Speaker 2>to bring energy bills down the new administration is not

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<v Speaker 2>something that costs any money. So we've proposed a package

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<v Speaker 2>of three energy market reforms. The first one we've been

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<v Speaker 2>banging on about for some years now, which is to

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<v Speaker 2>break the link. So I don't know if you know this,

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<v Speaker 2>but in our energy market, we link the price of

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<v Speaker 2>gas on global markets to the price of wind and

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<v Speaker 2>sun made here in Britain, and it's responsible for incredibly

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<v Speaker 2>high energy bills every time there's an energy crisis. We're

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<v Speaker 2>in the second one this decade, that's bound to be

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<v Speaker 2>another one. We modeled the impact in twenty twenty three,

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<v Speaker 2>and it added forty three billion pounds to the nation's

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<v Speaker 2>energy bills, thirty billion added to business bills, thirteen billion

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<v Speaker 2>added to domestic bills. It added one point five percentage

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<v Speaker 2>points to inflation and one percent to Bank of England

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<v Speaker 2>lending rates.

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<v Speaker 1>And this is the idea of the marginal pricing of electricity, right,

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<v Speaker 1>just explain what that is and why you think this linkage.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know why it exists, and nobody has ever

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<v Speaker 2>been able to explain why we have it and why

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<v Speaker 2>we need it and why we can't break it. The

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<v Speaker 2>link itself is imagine a daily auction. The grid operator

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<v Speaker 2>here wants a certain amount of power, call it hundred megawats,

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<v Speaker 2>doesn't really matter, and it takes bids for more forms

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<v Speaker 2>of generation, and it stacks them cheapest first to the highest.

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<v Speaker 2>Last one in is nearly always gas, nearly always, and

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<v Speaker 2>then it pays everybody in the stack the gas price.

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<v Speaker 2>And I don't understand that. Why don't people get paid

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<v Speaker 2>what they bid? So it's basically pay us clear the

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<v Speaker 2>current system, or pay us bid. And the economic impact

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<v Speaker 2>of this system, well it's profound, actually, So that's one measure.

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<v Speaker 2>No money required just to change to the system. And

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<v Speaker 2>the other is to take these CfDS that we talked

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<v Speaker 2>about a minute ago and apply them to the north Sea,

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<v Speaker 2>to the oil and gas production in the north Sea

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<v Speaker 2>to fix the price. Now, this has a number of

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<v Speaker 2>benefits because we've got about ten years production left, and

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<v Speaker 2>while the north Sea is subject to a global prices,

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<v Speaker 2>there's a chance of a cliff edge event where the

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<v Speaker 2>price drops and the operators of diminishing fields call time.

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<v Speaker 2>They say it's not economic anymore, we're going to leave.

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<v Speaker 2>So with a fixed price, we can guarantee the returns

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<v Speaker 2>of the operators, we can keep the jobs we've gotten,

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<v Speaker 2>and kind of have a proper orderly transition. Just so

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<v Speaker 2>happens that taking the market riskal also would save the

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<v Speaker 2>nation ten billion pounds a year on their energy bills. Now.

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<v Speaker 2>The third one is to control the network operators that

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<v Speaker 2>they run the low voltage system, not not the national

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<v Speaker 2>super high voltage system, but the regional grids. And they're

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<v Speaker 2>making forty percent profit margins. They're regulated monopolies. And it's

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<v Speaker 2>quite incredible to me because we already control the profit

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<v Speaker 2>margins of retail energy companies to be just two percent

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<v Speaker 2>and if we were to control the network operators to

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<v Speaker 2>a similar extent, we can knock another five billion pounds

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<v Speaker 2>a year off our energy bills. These three energy reforms

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<v Speaker 2>together will half our energy bills. Biggest thing Labor can

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<v Speaker 2>do to tackle the cost of living crisis and the

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<v Speaker 2>thing that grieves so many people. You know the state

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<v Speaker 2>of our energy bills, but you.

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<v Speaker 1>Know you are one of the biggest donors to the

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<v Speaker 1>Labor Party. You've given five million pounds or six million pounds.

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<v Speaker 1>Does that get you to then present this to the

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<v Speaker 1>government and get a hearing from the leaders to see

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<v Speaker 1>that this might be a good idea.

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<v Speaker 2>So I've been presenting policies like this for a number

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<v Speaker 2>of years to all governments. I'd stepped up at the

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<v Speaker 2>last election to help Labor with what is always a

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<v Speaker 2>funding gap between them and the Tories. And it was

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<v Speaker 2>a mixture of reasons. We suffered fourteen years of Tory misrule.

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<v Speaker 2>Labor had embraced the Green agenda, and I felt that

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<v Speaker 2>they were the best choice for the country, and I

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<v Speaker 2>had the means and the will to help at that point,

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<v Speaker 2>which I hadn't had before. So I stepped into fund

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<v Speaker 2>the gap, as it were, I didn't want anything for that,

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<v Speaker 2>and people find it hard to believe in our country

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<v Speaker 2>and probably in any country, which is why another one

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<v Speaker 2>of the policies we've been suggesting is to ban political

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<v Speaker 2>donations completely and publicly fund them. But what does it

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<v Speaker 2>get me? I mean, I would say nothing special. So look,

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<v Speaker 2>I've had maybe two meetings with Desness since the election.

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<v Speaker 2>I think labor have been actually what would you call it.

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<v Speaker 2>They've been very shy of meeting donors and being around donors,

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<v Speaker 2>almost some kind of positive discrimination or negative in fact.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, if you're a donor, it's like, well, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>just stay over there. And I understand that, but it

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<v Speaker 2>hasn't stopped me putting papers out and publishing reports and

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<v Speaker 2>stuff like that. We've got a suite of them for

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<v Speaker 2>the incoming government, which we believe, and we've had economists

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<v Speaker 2>produce these numbers for us would treble the rate of

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<v Speaker 2>GDP growth in our country.

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<v Speaker 1>And just going to the point you made about you know,

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<v Speaker 1>you are also not just as a donor, but as

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<v Speaker 1>a donor in a way wanting to have political donations banned.

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<v Speaker 1>And in this country there is currently a scandal with

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<v Speaker 1>Reform Party in Nigel Farage, who's under a parliamentary investigation

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<v Speaker 1>looking at donations that have been given to him. What

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<v Speaker 1>would that band look like? And is the new Labor

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<v Speaker 1>government under Andy Burnham going to take it up?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I don't know the answer to the second part

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<v Speaker 2>of that. I hope so would be my answer. I'm

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<v Speaker 2>going to give it a go. So we published a

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<v Speaker 2>paper a few weeks ago. I run a media organization

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<v Speaker 2>called Babelfish, and we just crunch some numbers and the

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<v Speaker 2>simple presentation I would give you is this, our economy

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<v Speaker 2>is worth about three trillion pounds. It might be the

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<v Speaker 2>sixth biggest in the world, something like that. We employ

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<v Speaker 2>a small army, five hundred thousand people in the civil

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<v Speaker 2>service to run this economy at a cost of twenty

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<v Speaker 2>billion pounds a year, and then we allow fifty million

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<v Speaker 2>pounds of private money to fund the politicians that will

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<v Speaker 2>be the government making the decisions. It's a terribly small

0:11:48.240 --> 0:11:50.600
<v Speaker 2>sum of money in the scheme of things. In business terms,

0:11:50.679 --> 0:11:53.080
<v Speaker 2>you say that's a false economy. All right, let's just

0:11:53.120 --> 0:11:56.400
<v Speaker 2>publicly fund it. We calculate it would cost the equivalent

0:11:56.440 --> 0:12:00.280
<v Speaker 2>of a packet of crisps per year per person thing.

0:12:00.559 --> 0:12:03.320
<v Speaker 2>It's not even a rounding era in a three trillion economy.

0:12:03.800 --> 0:12:06.400
<v Speaker 2>So that's the basis of our argument. It's a false economy.

0:12:06.880 --> 0:12:10.960
<v Speaker 2>The result of private funding is corrosion of our democracy,

0:12:11.559 --> 0:12:15.400
<v Speaker 2>suspicion of influence, actual influence as well. We've seen examples

0:12:15.440 --> 0:12:17.520
<v Speaker 2>of that over the last few decades, and so I

0:12:17.600 --> 0:12:20.680
<v Speaker 2>just think it's the chance to properly clean up politics completely. Meanwhile,

0:12:20.720 --> 0:12:24.640
<v Speaker 2>our government have tried to shut down cryptodonations, foreign donations.

0:12:24.760 --> 0:12:26.480
<v Speaker 2>It's a game of whack a mole. Every time we

0:12:26.520 --> 0:12:31.560
<v Speaker 2>create a new legislation block, another one comes up. And

0:12:31.640 --> 0:12:33.640
<v Speaker 2>you know, the scandals with Nigel Farges really make the

0:12:33.640 --> 0:12:36.400
<v Speaker 2>point for us because in the last two weeks has

0:12:36.440 --> 0:12:40.200
<v Speaker 2>been one scandal after another around undisclosed donations and what

0:12:40.240 --> 0:12:43.199
<v Speaker 2>they're actually for, leading to the by election which you'll

0:12:43.240 --> 0:12:45.000
<v Speaker 2>probably be familiar with, which is coming in the middle

0:12:45.040 --> 0:12:47.920
<v Speaker 2>of August, which is great fun because fris called a

0:12:47.960 --> 0:12:51.240
<v Speaker 2>by election thinking it was a smart move. He'll put

0:12:51.240 --> 0:12:53.319
<v Speaker 2>it to the people. They don't care about his scandal's

0:12:53.400 --> 0:12:56.280
<v Speaker 2>Trump style really, and all the other major parties pulled

0:12:56.280 --> 0:12:57.959
<v Speaker 2>out and said, well, if you want a by election,

0:12:58.040 --> 0:13:00.680
<v Speaker 2>you can argue with yourself. Other than in Face. He

0:13:00.760 --> 0:13:02.800
<v Speaker 2>popped up and said, well, I'll fight the by election.

0:13:02.920 --> 0:13:06.040
<v Speaker 2>He's a fantastic character. He's been around a while. I

0:13:06.120 --> 0:13:09.760
<v Speaker 2>mighting bi elections, but I'm backing him in Clacton and

0:13:09.800 --> 0:13:11.640
<v Speaker 2>it's going to be it's going to be a fun summer. Well.

0:13:11.640 --> 0:13:14.640
<v Speaker 1>This requires a little explanation for the non UK listeners,

0:13:14.679 --> 0:13:18.200
<v Speaker 1>because in the UK anybody can know with a little

0:13:18.240 --> 0:13:23.080
<v Speaker 1>sum of money, a few hundred pounds really apply to

0:13:23.440 --> 0:13:26.400
<v Speaker 1>be running in an election and be on the ballot paper.

0:13:26.640 --> 0:13:29.920
<v Speaker 1>And we do get some joke candidates and count Binface

0:13:29.960 --> 0:13:32.160
<v Speaker 1>for a long time has been a joke candidate, but

0:13:32.240 --> 0:13:35.200
<v Speaker 1>this time he might be a serious candidate if you

0:13:35.240 --> 0:13:38.439
<v Speaker 1>are funding his political campaign.

0:13:38.679 --> 0:13:40.960
<v Speaker 2>There's a degree to which he's a serious candidate anyway,

0:13:41.000 --> 0:13:44.040
<v Speaker 2>because he uses satire and humor to kind of poke

0:13:44.120 --> 0:13:46.240
<v Speaker 2>fun at the way things are done. And that cuts

0:13:46.240 --> 0:13:48.160
<v Speaker 2>through to a degree. And if you've ever listened to him,

0:13:48.480 --> 0:13:50.720
<v Speaker 2>and I find him, I find him brilliant to listen to.

0:13:51.960 --> 0:13:55.160
<v Speaker 2>You know, I've got I've got a manifesto. I'm going

0:13:55.160 --> 0:13:57.040
<v Speaker 2>to build at least one affordable home. That is a

0:13:57.080 --> 0:13:59.600
<v Speaker 2>great poke at politicians. You are always going on about

0:13:59.600 --> 0:14:01.920
<v Speaker 2>affordable homes and stuff like that is going to fix

0:14:02.000 --> 0:14:04.880
<v Speaker 2>the price of a ninety nine in Clacton. This is

0:14:04.920 --> 0:14:06.680
<v Speaker 2>an ice cream with a flake in the top. I mean,

0:14:07.080 --> 0:14:11.199
<v Speaker 2>it's a British cultural thing. He's so funny, but by

0:14:13.360 --> 0:14:16.560
<v Speaker 2>having a laugh at the things that politicians typically say,

0:14:16.640 --> 0:14:20.200
<v Speaker 2>he helps us, I think, to ground ourselves. And the

0:14:20.240 --> 0:14:24.640
<v Speaker 2>idea of him in farage debating in callectin honestie is wonderful.

0:14:24.800 --> 0:14:27.440
<v Speaker 2>And Faraj doesn't have to lose to lose this gamb

0:14:27.400 --> 0:14:29.200
<v Speaker 2>but that he's made. He just has to lose vote

0:14:29.240 --> 0:14:32.920
<v Speaker 2>share and be embarrassed basically by his own actions. And

0:14:32.960 --> 0:14:35.120
<v Speaker 2>if he does win the by election, which he probably will,

0:14:35.400 --> 0:14:38.320
<v Speaker 2>he'll face another one because this inquiry hasn't gone away,

0:14:38.360 --> 0:14:42.440
<v Speaker 2>and in fact, since he resigned there have been more revelations.

0:14:42.560 --> 0:14:45.640
<v Speaker 1>Well, I should note coun Bnfath's real name is Jonathan

0:14:45.720 --> 0:14:50.000
<v Speaker 1>Harvey is a comedian. And there is a climate policy

0:14:50.360 --> 0:14:52.440
<v Speaker 1>that is relevant that I should note that he has

0:14:52.480 --> 0:14:56.200
<v Speaker 1>talked about, which is he would like to send anybody

0:14:56.240 --> 0:14:59.200
<v Speaker 1>who denies climate change back to school from year one

0:14:59.240 --> 0:15:04.040
<v Speaker 1>all the way to to just before university to test

0:15:04.080 --> 0:15:07.040
<v Speaker 1>whether a little more has gone in their heads.

0:15:06.760 --> 0:15:10.360
<v Speaker 2>Since my in take on that is, we should make

0:15:10.400 --> 0:15:12.840
<v Speaker 2>climate denial a crime. Actually, I mean it's a little

0:15:12.840 --> 0:15:15.240
<v Speaker 2>bit more serious than his idea, but it shouldn't be

0:15:15.560 --> 0:15:18.680
<v Speaker 2>possible today with all of the science that we have

0:15:18.760 --> 0:15:20.760
<v Speaker 2>and the impact that we're seeing. And we were sweltering

0:15:20.760 --> 0:15:22.520
<v Speaker 2>here in Britain for the last couple of weeks, third

0:15:22.560 --> 0:15:24.120
<v Speaker 2>heat wave of the year. You know, it's all quite

0:15:24.160 --> 0:15:26.520
<v Speaker 2>incredible around the world, not just in Britain. It shouldn't

0:15:26.560 --> 0:15:29.440
<v Speaker 2>be allowable to deny climate change because it confuses the

0:15:29.480 --> 0:15:32.200
<v Speaker 2>public and it dilutes action. You know, we don't allow

0:15:32.280 --> 0:15:34.680
<v Speaker 2>things like holocaust denial, and I know that's a very

0:15:34.680 --> 0:15:38.080
<v Speaker 2>different thing on quite a scale really, but I think

0:15:38.120 --> 0:15:40.800
<v Speaker 2>the scale of the impact of the climate crisis will

0:15:40.840 --> 0:15:43.840
<v Speaker 2>be equal to that one hundred thousand people will die

0:15:43.880 --> 0:15:46.400
<v Speaker 2>in Europe this summer from the heat, for example. And

0:15:46.440 --> 0:15:47.480
<v Speaker 2>this is just getting going.

0:15:50.760 --> 0:15:53.440
<v Speaker 1>After the break more of my conversation with Dale Vins

0:15:53.680 --> 0:15:56.720
<v Speaker 1>about the future of British climate and energy policies. If

0:15:56.720 --> 0:15:59.480
<v Speaker 1>you enjoy what you hear on Zero, please write a

0:15:59.520 --> 0:16:03.800
<v Speaker 1>s review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube. Recently, Adrian

0:16:03.840 --> 0:16:08.280
<v Speaker 1>wrote Zero has been my favorite podcast since its first episode.

0:16:08.560 --> 0:16:24.520
<v Speaker 1>Thank you, Adrian, you were supportive of the Clean Power

0:16:24.560 --> 0:16:27.960
<v Speaker 1>Plan that Starmer's government put in place, which aims to

0:16:28.000 --> 0:16:31.280
<v Speaker 1>get to ninety five percent clean power by twenty thirty.

0:16:32.240 --> 0:16:36.040
<v Speaker 1>Now we've already got studies saying that's not going to happen.

0:16:36.240 --> 0:16:38.920
<v Speaker 1>It's going to take a little bit longer, but as

0:16:38.960 --> 0:16:42.320
<v Speaker 1>you said, at least they've got the country going down

0:16:42.360 --> 0:16:46.280
<v Speaker 1>that path. From your perspective, do you think sticking with

0:16:46.320 --> 0:16:49.160
<v Speaker 1>the clean Power Plan by twenty thirty is a policy

0:16:49.160 --> 0:16:54.400
<v Speaker 1>worth backing or is the investment in infrastructure pipeline already

0:16:54.440 --> 0:16:59.640
<v Speaker 1>reached a point that the energy department business can focus

0:16:59.640 --> 0:17:00.320
<v Speaker 1>on something else.

0:17:00.480 --> 0:17:04.320
<v Speaker 2>Well, I think Desne's view is that we don't need

0:17:04.359 --> 0:17:07.119
<v Speaker 2>to break the link because by twenty thirty we'll have

0:17:07.240 --> 0:17:10.040
<v Speaker 2>ninety odd percent green on the grid, and therefore we've

0:17:10.080 --> 0:17:13.080
<v Speaker 2>basically weaned ourselves off gas so it won't set the price.

0:17:13.119 --> 0:17:15.359
<v Speaker 2>But then they have their own other study that shows

0:17:15.359 --> 0:17:17.399
<v Speaker 2>that gas will still set the price thirty percent of

0:17:17.480 --> 0:17:21.719
<v Speaker 2>the time in those circumstances. So I think Desnees have

0:17:23.160 --> 0:17:25.959
<v Speaker 2>they've made a misstep, a big misstep. Ed miliband anounce

0:17:26.000 --> 0:17:28.040
<v Speaker 2>breaking the link a couple of months ago. It was

0:17:28.080 --> 0:17:30.680
<v Speaker 2>a fake announcement. They didn't do it, and I come

0:17:30.720 --> 0:17:32.840
<v Speaker 2>back to this point. It's the biggest thing that government

0:17:32.840 --> 0:17:35.320
<v Speaker 2>can do for our energy bills. But it's also important

0:17:35.359 --> 0:17:38.439
<v Speaker 2>to this green transition because we can't have wind and

0:17:38.520 --> 0:17:42.399
<v Speaker 2>sun in our energy mix delivering the benefits of lower

0:17:42.440 --> 0:17:45.160
<v Speaker 2>price green energy until we break the link with gas,

0:17:45.200 --> 0:17:47.879
<v Speaker 2>because gas will still set the price, and green energy

0:17:47.920 --> 0:17:50.199
<v Speaker 2>gets the blame for our high energy bills. But it

0:17:50.240 --> 0:17:53.240
<v Speaker 2>really is gas. The global price of gas setting the

0:17:53.240 --> 0:17:56.080
<v Speaker 2>price of our own wind and sun is a ridiculous situation.

0:17:56.280 --> 0:17:58.320
<v Speaker 2>So I think we should continue to try and get

0:17:58.359 --> 0:18:00.800
<v Speaker 2>to one hundred percent show that we will, and I

0:18:00.840 --> 0:18:03.199
<v Speaker 2>don't even care if we only get to ninety, right.

0:18:03.520 --> 0:18:06.679
<v Speaker 2>I began in green energy in nineteen ninety one when

0:18:06.720 --> 0:18:09.159
<v Speaker 2>there was nothing on the grid, and you know, the

0:18:09.240 --> 0:18:13.879
<v Speaker 2>rate of change now is quite profound. But we must

0:18:13.920 --> 0:18:18.200
<v Speaker 2>tackle the energy market and this systemic problem of gas

0:18:18.240 --> 0:18:20.639
<v Speaker 2>setting the price of green energy, otherwise we can't get

0:18:20.680 --> 0:18:23.120
<v Speaker 2>the benefits of lower bills. The public says, well, green

0:18:23.200 --> 0:18:24.479
<v Speaker 2>energy is driving bills up.

0:18:24.760 --> 0:18:28.080
<v Speaker 1>Beyond the energy market reform ideas that you talked about,

0:18:28.200 --> 0:18:33.760
<v Speaker 1>there are other bottlenecks that remain grid connections planning. What

0:18:33.800 --> 0:18:36.520
<v Speaker 1>do you think Burnham can do to fix this, Well, I.

0:18:36.520 --> 0:18:39.280
<v Speaker 2>Think we need to regulate the power companies better. Right,

0:18:39.280 --> 0:18:41.879
<v Speaker 2>they're privately owned. You know, they're making fantastic sums of

0:18:41.920 --> 0:18:44.680
<v Speaker 2>money for shareholders, and I would argue that we need

0:18:44.720 --> 0:18:48.280
<v Speaker 2>to regulate them to divert some of those fantastic sums,

0:18:48.320 --> 0:18:51.200
<v Speaker 2>more of those sums into the infrastructure that we need,

0:18:51.680 --> 0:18:54.640
<v Speaker 2>because it's our infrastructure is vital to our economy. And

0:18:54.720 --> 0:18:56.320
<v Speaker 2>you know, there's some fuss in the media last week

0:18:56.359 --> 0:18:59.240
<v Speaker 2>about the fact that we need to spend another seventy

0:18:59.280 --> 0:19:03.280
<v Speaker 2>billion or something like that on grid upgrades for green energy,

0:19:03.960 --> 0:19:07.159
<v Speaker 2>and this is a presentational issue. We look back and said, well,

0:19:07.160 --> 0:19:09.400
<v Speaker 2>how much we did we spend building the grid after

0:19:09.440 --> 0:19:11.800
<v Speaker 2>the Second World War for fossil fuels. Well it was

0:19:11.840 --> 0:19:13.760
<v Speaker 2>about the same sum of money. But we didn't all

0:19:13.840 --> 0:19:15.320
<v Speaker 2>run around saying, oh, we need to spend all this

0:19:15.400 --> 0:19:18.159
<v Speaker 2>money for fossil fuels. We ran around saying, well, we

0:19:18.160 --> 0:19:20.520
<v Speaker 2>need to build a grid now. We need to build

0:19:20.240 --> 0:19:23.399
<v Speaker 2>a kind of bolt onto that grid for the twenty

0:19:23.440 --> 0:19:26.399
<v Speaker 2>first century and for this new form of energy. But

0:19:26.440 --> 0:19:28.080
<v Speaker 2>it's so that we can all have power. And you know,

0:19:28.160 --> 0:19:30.359
<v Speaker 2>I mean it's quite often and lost in the debate.

0:19:30.400 --> 0:19:33.240
<v Speaker 2>But renewable energy is a forever fuel, it won't run out,

0:19:33.280 --> 0:19:35.280
<v Speaker 2>and the jobs we create a forever jobs.

0:19:35.480 --> 0:19:37.960
<v Speaker 1>You talked about the Nazi as one of your three

0:19:38.080 --> 0:19:43.440
<v Speaker 1>prong reform fixes, and your position now that we should

0:19:43.640 --> 0:19:47.399
<v Speaker 1>drill in the Nazi additionally from what we've already done,

0:19:47.800 --> 0:19:52.520
<v Speaker 1>but do so with these fixed prices goes counter to

0:19:52.640 --> 0:19:55.760
<v Speaker 1>your position just a few years ago when you were

0:19:55.840 --> 0:20:00.240
<v Speaker 1>funding just Up Oil, who succeeded in a way with

0:20:00.280 --> 0:20:03.840
<v Speaker 1>this labor party to actually put lid on new licenses

0:20:03.880 --> 0:20:07.680
<v Speaker 1>in the Nazi. But in a way you've reversed your position.

0:20:08.040 --> 0:20:10.879
<v Speaker 2>No, you've misunderstood me. I think we should apply a

0:20:10.960 --> 0:20:14.880
<v Speaker 2>CFD to existing production in the Nazi, not drill more and.

0:20:14.800 --> 0:20:19.080
<v Speaker 1>So subsidized existing production because you know you're fixing the price,

0:20:19.160 --> 0:20:21.840
<v Speaker 1>but the price may mean at some point there's a

0:20:21.880 --> 0:20:25.359
<v Speaker 1>subsidy because in a world where we are consuming less

0:20:25.359 --> 0:20:28.040
<v Speaker 1>oil and gas in the future, price of oil and

0:20:28.080 --> 0:20:30.040
<v Speaker 1>gas will actually fall quite drastically.

0:20:30.440 --> 0:20:34.800
<v Speaker 2>No, absolutely, I think the logic is clear. We can

0:20:34.800 --> 0:20:38.119
<v Speaker 2>protect the jobs and we can maximize extraction of what

0:20:38.160 --> 0:20:41.320
<v Speaker 2>we have with a controlled situation at a fixed price.

0:20:41.760 --> 0:20:43.760
<v Speaker 2>Our studies show that over the last five years. It

0:20:43.760 --> 0:20:45.320
<v Speaker 2>wouldn't have been a subsidy. It would have been a

0:20:45.320 --> 0:20:47.560
<v Speaker 2>gain to the country of ten billion pounds a year.

0:20:48.160 --> 0:20:49.919
<v Speaker 2>So I think it makes sense every which way you

0:20:49.920 --> 0:20:50.359
<v Speaker 2>look at it.

0:20:50.480 --> 0:20:53.480
<v Speaker 1>Then let's come to heat pumps, because you talked about

0:20:53.920 --> 0:20:56.760
<v Speaker 1>the subsidies on heat pumps and on electric cars as

0:20:56.760 --> 0:21:00.119
<v Speaker 1>a middle class subsidy. Is that your real problem with

0:21:00.160 --> 0:21:02.600
<v Speaker 1>the heat pumps or is the technology itself holdso a problem.

0:21:02.680 --> 0:21:04.840
<v Speaker 2>Well, I think they're being missold to the public. I

0:21:04.840 --> 0:21:08.520
<v Speaker 2>think they've been missold to desness with claims that they

0:21:08.520 --> 0:21:11.399
<v Speaker 2>can bring energy bills down. We published a survey a

0:21:11.440 --> 0:21:14.760
<v Speaker 2>few weeks ago of heat pump owners and two thirds

0:21:14.800 --> 0:21:16.880
<v Speaker 2>of them said the bills had gone up. Only fifteen

0:21:16.920 --> 0:21:20.159
<v Speaker 2>percent said the bills had gone down. And I mean

0:21:20.200 --> 0:21:23.119
<v Speaker 2>it gets quite complicated. But because of the differential between

0:21:23.119 --> 0:21:25.560
<v Speaker 2>the price of electricity and gas in our country, you

0:21:25.600 --> 0:21:28.679
<v Speaker 2>need to achieve an efficiency known as a cop of

0:21:28.840 --> 0:21:31.720
<v Speaker 2>four with your heat pump in order to just break even.

0:21:31.840 --> 0:21:33.800
<v Speaker 2>If you're getting less than four, your bill goes up,

0:21:33.920 --> 0:21:36.160
<v Speaker 2>and this is what happening for most people. The other

0:21:36.200 --> 0:21:39.680
<v Speaker 2>thing not really understood is that heat pumps produce water

0:21:39.720 --> 0:21:42.160
<v Speaker 2>around about forty to fifty degrees. Forty degrees is where

0:21:42.160 --> 0:21:44.480
<v Speaker 2>they're most efficient. If you crank that dial up to

0:21:44.520 --> 0:21:47.040
<v Speaker 2>try and get your seventy or eighty that you used to,

0:21:47.520 --> 0:21:50.919
<v Speaker 2>then your COP falls away. Our houses have been designed

0:21:50.960 --> 0:21:53.479
<v Speaker 2>for the most part for hot water at eighty degrees

0:21:53.480 --> 0:21:56.159
<v Speaker 2>in the radiators, so when you put a heat pump in,

0:21:56.200 --> 0:21:58.480
<v Speaker 2>you need to change your radiators. Most of the time

0:21:58.520 --> 0:22:00.760
<v Speaker 2>you will have to get used to lower temperature water

0:22:00.840 --> 0:22:03.520
<v Speaker 2>running around your house and stuff like that. So in

0:22:03.560 --> 0:22:05.680
<v Speaker 2>the real world, people are turning them up to get

0:22:05.680 --> 0:22:08.400
<v Speaker 2>a higher temperature and the COP falls away. The average

0:22:08.440 --> 0:22:11.159
<v Speaker 2>COP in our country is two point eight across the

0:22:11.200 --> 0:22:14.879
<v Speaker 2>whoefully of installed heat pumps. Manufacturers say you can save money,

0:22:14.920 --> 0:22:16.879
<v Speaker 2>you have to have more than four to save money,

0:22:17.040 --> 0:22:17.800
<v Speaker 2>and it's not happening.

0:22:17.840 --> 0:22:20.040
<v Speaker 1>But there are two fixes to that that could come through,

0:22:20.040 --> 0:22:21.720
<v Speaker 1>and if those come through, would you support them. So

0:22:21.800 --> 0:22:25.320
<v Speaker 1>one is to actually bring down this gap between electricity

0:22:25.359 --> 0:22:27.800
<v Speaker 1>price and gas price, because if you move some of

0:22:27.800 --> 0:22:30.800
<v Speaker 1>the levees to taxes that are there on electricity into

0:22:31.000 --> 0:22:34.720
<v Speaker 1>gas or into general taxation, that can happen. And then

0:22:34.720 --> 0:22:37.639
<v Speaker 1>the second thing that's happening, which is now a technology

0:22:37.680 --> 0:22:41.160
<v Speaker 1>gain and you've seen technology improvements. You can get heat

0:22:41.160 --> 0:22:43.679
<v Speaker 1>pumps that are higher than for cop Actually there was

0:22:43.800 --> 0:22:48.119
<v Speaker 1>one that's now commercially available at six. So the future

0:22:48.160 --> 0:22:51.320
<v Speaker 1>deployment of heat pumps can be crossing that four barrier.

0:22:51.720 --> 0:22:55.160
<v Speaker 1>That combination. If that actually lowers bills, you'd be supportive

0:22:55.160 --> 0:22:56.200
<v Speaker 1>of heat pumps.

0:22:55.920 --> 0:22:58.000
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely if it comes. So you know, you can have

0:22:58.040 --> 0:23:00.760
<v Speaker 2>a piece of technology that kind of works in theory.

0:23:01.000 --> 0:23:02.600
<v Speaker 2>I'm always wanting to see how it works in the

0:23:02.600 --> 0:23:06.840
<v Speaker 2>real world in our housing stock. You know, six sounds great,

0:23:07.520 --> 0:23:09.119
<v Speaker 2>and if you can get it, that's great. But in

0:23:09.160 --> 0:23:11.240
<v Speaker 2>terms of the gap between electricity and gas, business have

0:23:11.320 --> 0:23:13.520
<v Speaker 2>been proposing raising the price of gas. I think that's

0:23:13.560 --> 0:23:15.560
<v Speaker 2>a terrible thing to do because there are so many

0:23:15.600 --> 0:23:17.800
<v Speaker 2>people in our country. Twenty percent of homes in our

0:23:17.800 --> 0:23:20.000
<v Speaker 2>country can never have a heat pump. They're flats and

0:23:20.000 --> 0:23:22.919
<v Speaker 2>stuff like that. Another twenty percent be super expensive to do,

0:23:23.040 --> 0:23:26.040
<v Speaker 2>But we come back to middle class substits and regressive taxation.

0:23:26.080 --> 0:23:27.560
<v Speaker 2>If we put up the price of gas, that's a

0:23:27.640 --> 0:23:29.159
<v Speaker 2>terrible thing to do. What we need to do is

0:23:29.200 --> 0:23:31.480
<v Speaker 2>bring down the price of electricity. Now, with our three

0:23:31.520 --> 0:23:32.760
<v Speaker 2>market reforms, we can do that.

0:23:32.800 --> 0:23:35.520
<v Speaker 1>We can half it One advantage of heat bumps is

0:23:35.560 --> 0:23:39.040
<v Speaker 1>that you could use them for cooling. Maybe not air

0:23:39.080 --> 0:23:42.080
<v Speaker 1>to water heat pumps, but you could even those. But

0:23:42.240 --> 0:23:44.720
<v Speaker 1>air to air heat pumps, which the rest of the

0:23:44.720 --> 0:23:49.240
<v Speaker 1>world uses for air conditioning, can certainly be made to

0:23:49.520 --> 0:23:52.199
<v Speaker 1>heat and cool. And given the heat waves that we

0:23:52.240 --> 0:23:56.199
<v Speaker 1>are seeing here in twenty twenty six, the demand for

0:23:56.240 --> 0:23:59.919
<v Speaker 1>cooling is rising in Britain. Most people that I'm you know,

0:24:00.400 --> 0:24:03.560
<v Speaker 1>ask what are they doing, are getting portable air conditioners

0:24:03.600 --> 0:24:08.399
<v Speaker 1>really inefficient and not well suited. So that might be

0:24:08.440 --> 0:24:09.480
<v Speaker 1>an advantage for heat pumps.

0:24:09.520 --> 0:24:11.359
<v Speaker 2>Now take your point. I mean air toware can be

0:24:11.440 --> 0:24:13.720
<v Speaker 2>used for cooling and increasingly we need cooling. And there's

0:24:13.720 --> 0:24:16.080
<v Speaker 2>a debate in our country about that right now, you know,

0:24:16.160 --> 0:24:19.359
<v Speaker 2>should we all get air con? But it leaves the

0:24:19.400 --> 0:24:21.760
<v Speaker 2>poor behind? All right, there are people that can't afford

0:24:21.800 --> 0:24:23.679
<v Speaker 2>their energy bills. Now can they afford to run an

0:24:23.680 --> 0:24:25.800
<v Speaker 2>air con unit? Let them buy one? And we have

0:24:25.880 --> 0:24:27.320
<v Speaker 2>to bear this in mind.

0:24:27.680 --> 0:24:31.200
<v Speaker 1>You called heap hops exotic, Are they really exotic?

0:24:31.400 --> 0:24:35.639
<v Speaker 2>They're not. It's just me being a populist. I mean, basically,

0:24:35.680 --> 0:24:36.679
<v Speaker 2>it's a fridge, right.

0:24:37.040 --> 0:24:38.760
<v Speaker 1>It is a fridge, and fridges have been around for

0:24:38.760 --> 0:24:41.880
<v Speaker 1>a very long time. There's an aspect of fridges which

0:24:41.920 --> 0:24:46.240
<v Speaker 1>I continue to throw at people whenever I hear about fridges.

0:24:46.480 --> 0:24:50.359
<v Speaker 1>The first fridges that were invented ran on natural gas

0:24:50.440 --> 0:24:54.560
<v Speaker 1>and they were much more efficient than electric ones. And

0:24:54.680 --> 0:25:00.280
<v Speaker 1>it was the electricity industry General Electric that lobbied and

0:25:00.440 --> 0:25:04.159
<v Speaker 1>put our advertisements to really kill off the natural gas fridge.

0:25:05.280 --> 0:25:07.000
<v Speaker 1>And maybe we should thank them for it, because now

0:25:07.040 --> 0:25:10.760
<v Speaker 1>fridges are way more efficient electrically and natural gas fridges

0:25:10.760 --> 0:25:11.960
<v Speaker 1>will not match it.

0:25:12.000 --> 0:25:13.639
<v Speaker 2>And you've got a few issue with gas as well,

0:25:14.040 --> 0:25:16.119
<v Speaker 2>gas cookers in houses, you know. I mean, gas is

0:25:16.960 --> 0:25:18.520
<v Speaker 2>a bit last century, but I think it's got a

0:25:18.600 --> 0:25:22.000
<v Speaker 2>role to play. When we look at decarbonizing home heating

0:25:22.040 --> 0:25:24.280
<v Speaker 2>in Britain, I think the answer is more of a

0:25:24.320 --> 0:25:28.119
<v Speaker 2>blended outcome of like a forty forty percent green gas,

0:25:28.119 --> 0:25:31.159
<v Speaker 2>which we haven't talked about, forty percent heat pumps and

0:25:31.160 --> 0:25:34.960
<v Speaker 2>twenty percent hydrogen and efficiency measures. And the hydrogen links

0:25:35.000 --> 0:25:38.640
<v Speaker 2>into the previous thing. We discussed how do we keep

0:25:38.680 --> 0:25:41.399
<v Speaker 2>the lights on in one hundredercent green grid, and we

0:25:41.440 --> 0:25:44.760
<v Speaker 2>do that by oversizing the generation fleet so that we

0:25:44.800 --> 0:25:47.200
<v Speaker 2>minimize the times when we don't have enough, but when

0:25:47.240 --> 0:25:49.000
<v Speaker 2>we do that, we increase the times when we have

0:25:49.080 --> 0:25:51.680
<v Speaker 2>too much, we turn it into hydrogen. Our gas grid

0:25:51.720 --> 0:25:54.239
<v Speaker 2>can take ten percent hydrogen right now, and we can

0:25:54.359 --> 0:25:56.359
<v Speaker 2>we can arbitrage. We can either put it into the

0:25:56.359 --> 0:25:58.360
<v Speaker 2>gas grid or hold it and turn it back into

0:25:58.359 --> 0:26:01.720
<v Speaker 2>electricity as a way of supporting grid. So that's the

0:26:01.760 --> 0:26:04.080
<v Speaker 2>bigger picture that we're missing. At the government level, there

0:26:04.119 --> 0:26:05.920
<v Speaker 2>is no plan. There's not even a plan for the

0:26:05.960 --> 0:26:07.080
<v Speaker 2>transition to EPOMPS.

0:26:07.280 --> 0:26:10.879
<v Speaker 1>The other thing you have talked about is nuclear power

0:26:11.080 --> 0:26:16.200
<v Speaker 1>and your stances existing nuclear fleet. Run it as much

0:26:16.200 --> 0:26:19.119
<v Speaker 1>as you can, but don't build new nuclear Now the

0:26:19.160 --> 0:26:21.480
<v Speaker 1>government stance is quite different. This is not just the

0:26:21.560 --> 0:26:24.800
<v Speaker 1>labor policy, but governments before that. They are building new

0:26:24.880 --> 0:26:28.359
<v Speaker 1>nuclear power plants, and there are some of the most

0:26:28.520 --> 0:26:33.359
<v Speaker 1>expensive nuclear power plants in the world. Your main problem

0:26:33.440 --> 0:26:36.880
<v Speaker 1>is they're too expensive new ones, no need to build them.

0:26:36.960 --> 0:26:39.440
<v Speaker 2>Well, I have so many problems with it. They are

0:26:39.480 --> 0:26:43.040
<v Speaker 2>super expensive. They've always made the most expensive electricity we've

0:26:43.080 --> 0:26:45.840
<v Speaker 2>ever had, and they're always late by a decade or more.

0:26:46.160 --> 0:26:48.640
<v Speaker 2>Now we've committed vast sums of money to size well.

0:26:48.720 --> 0:26:51.880
<v Speaker 2>See it's part of the fifty billion that I mentioned earlier,

0:26:52.400 --> 0:26:55.479
<v Speaker 2>and it can't come on the grid before twenty forty

0:26:55.920 --> 0:26:59.960
<v Speaker 2>best case. Now, Desniz tell me that that's about energy secure,

0:27:00.320 --> 0:27:02.439
<v Speaker 2>that's why we need it, And I say, well, we're

0:27:02.480 --> 0:27:03.840
<v Speaker 2>going to be one hundred percent green on the grid

0:27:03.880 --> 0:27:06.280
<v Speaker 2>by twenty thirty under your plan. What are we going

0:27:06.320 --> 0:27:08.560
<v Speaker 2>to do for energy security for the next ten years

0:27:08.560 --> 0:27:11.400
<v Speaker 2>while we wait for Size Well? That argument doesn't stack up.

0:27:11.640 --> 0:27:15.240
<v Speaker 2>And then the other argument is energy security, and I say,

0:27:15.520 --> 0:27:18.159
<v Speaker 2>we don't mind uranium in Britain, so we have to

0:27:18.160 --> 0:27:22.000
<v Speaker 2>buy on global markets. We've already passed peak uranium. The

0:27:22.040 --> 0:27:24.600
<v Speaker 2>world uses more than it minds. We're eating into stockpiles.

0:27:24.640 --> 0:27:27.280
<v Speaker 2>And by twenty fifty, when Size Well is just ten

0:27:27.359 --> 0:27:29.960
<v Speaker 2>years young on the grid, maybe there'll be a proper

0:27:29.960 --> 0:27:32.320
<v Speaker 2>global shortage because of the rate of building of nuclear

0:27:32.359 --> 0:27:35.080
<v Speaker 2>power stations around the world. So no energy security, nothing

0:27:35.080 --> 0:27:37.200
<v Speaker 2>to help us with our energy bills. Quite the opposite.

0:27:37.200 --> 0:27:39.800
<v Speaker 2>We're paying now for Size Well while it's being built

0:27:39.880 --> 0:27:43.920
<v Speaker 2>and it's not producing any energy. And one last thing,

0:27:44.880 --> 0:27:47.520
<v Speaker 2>the legacy right our current bill to clean up nuclear

0:27:47.520 --> 0:27:50.040
<v Speaker 2>power stations around about one hundred and fifty billion pounds.

0:27:50.040 --> 0:27:52.919
<v Speaker 2>We really don't have the technology beyond one hundred years

0:27:53.000 --> 0:27:55.159
<v Speaker 2>to contain this stuff which has a half life of

0:27:55.359 --> 0:27:57.919
<v Speaker 2>eight thousand years or something like that. It's longer than

0:27:57.960 --> 0:28:02.159
<v Speaker 2>recorded human history. And here's anecdotal thought. If the Romans

0:28:02.160 --> 0:28:04.760
<v Speaker 2>had nuclear power, it's only two thousand years ago. We

0:28:04.760 --> 0:28:07.560
<v Speaker 2>wouldn't be going to places like Bath to see Roman

0:28:07.640 --> 0:28:10.480
<v Speaker 2>ruins and bathe in that in that history. It would

0:28:10.480 --> 0:28:12.800
<v Speaker 2>be a toxic no go zone. And that's what we'll

0:28:12.840 --> 0:28:14.960
<v Speaker 2>bequeath to future generations.

0:28:15.520 --> 0:28:18.159
<v Speaker 1>But there is a real concern if we get to

0:28:18.200 --> 0:28:20.720
<v Speaker 1>a place where we don't have very much gas on

0:28:20.760 --> 0:28:25.119
<v Speaker 1>the grid, where we start to lose nuclear plants on

0:28:25.160 --> 0:28:29.000
<v Speaker 1>the grid. We have some batteries and we have some

0:28:29.160 --> 0:28:33.600
<v Speaker 1>hydropower storage, but that's not enough to balance the grid,

0:28:33.720 --> 0:28:37.080
<v Speaker 1>especially given how the electricity consumption in this country works,

0:28:37.080 --> 0:28:40.120
<v Speaker 1>which is very seasonal. And if heat pumps to take

0:28:40.120 --> 0:28:42.360
<v Speaker 1>off and come to a cop of six and our

0:28:42.520 --> 0:28:45.560
<v Speaker 1>real part of the solution, it'll be an even more

0:28:45.920 --> 0:28:49.560
<v Speaker 1>skewed consumption. So what do you do then to balance

0:28:49.600 --> 0:28:51.800
<v Speaker 1>the grid and ensure it works properly.

0:28:52.720 --> 0:28:56.120
<v Speaker 2>Firstly, just something worth knowing. It's often said that, you know,

0:28:56.160 --> 0:28:57.760
<v Speaker 2>we can't rely on the wind and some because they're

0:28:57.800 --> 0:29:02.000
<v Speaker 2>driven by the weather. In this five nuclear power stations

0:29:02.000 --> 0:29:04.280
<v Speaker 2>across who have been turned off because it's too hot.

0:29:04.480 --> 0:29:07.240
<v Speaker 2>And then if you look at the efficiency of CCGT

0:29:07.480 --> 0:29:11.240
<v Speaker 2>gas power stations, it fell twenty percent. In June seven

0:29:11.480 --> 0:29:14.360
<v Speaker 2>gigawats was lost in Britain because of the temperature. Now

0:29:14.960 --> 0:29:17.800
<v Speaker 2>these technologies we think we can rely on are being

0:29:17.800 --> 0:29:20.880
<v Speaker 2>affected by the climate crisis. That's an absolute problem. Meanwhile,

0:29:21.440 --> 0:29:24.120
<v Speaker 2>news out today Europe just hit a record level of

0:29:24.120 --> 0:29:27.680
<v Speaker 2>solar generation. You can understand why. So that's kind of

0:29:27.680 --> 0:29:31.080
<v Speaker 2>climate adapted technology. That is, how do we keep the

0:29:31.160 --> 0:29:33.840
<v Speaker 2>lights on? It's an age old kind of question really,

0:29:33.880 --> 0:29:36.000
<v Speaker 2>and I think the smart grid is the answer. This

0:29:36.120 --> 0:29:42.040
<v Speaker 2>emerging kind of field of endeavor AI based real time

0:29:42.160 --> 0:29:46.960
<v Speaker 2>energy balancing between generation, demand and storage. We have our

0:29:47.000 --> 0:29:50.480
<v Speaker 2>own system at Ecodrizny and many others have it too.

0:29:50.680 --> 0:29:53.080
<v Speaker 2>Smart meters in homes is helping us with that, so

0:29:53.120 --> 0:29:56.320
<v Speaker 2>that we've got access to real time consumption data and

0:29:56.360 --> 0:29:58.400
<v Speaker 2>then batteries at home as well is a really big

0:29:58.400 --> 0:30:00.200
<v Speaker 2>part of the answer, so that we can take our

0:30:00.240 --> 0:30:03.720
<v Speaker 2>housing fleet off the grid at times of peak and

0:30:03.760 --> 0:30:07.040
<v Speaker 2>put it back on at times of surplus. So I

0:30:07.120 --> 0:30:09.600
<v Speaker 2>think we have all of the tools actually to make

0:30:09.640 --> 0:30:13.360
<v Speaker 2>this transition and have sustainable one hunderdcent green grid where

0:30:13.400 --> 0:30:14.440
<v Speaker 2>the lights stay on.

0:30:14.720 --> 0:30:18.280
<v Speaker 1>Now, among the many businesses that you have launched, ecotricity

0:30:18.360 --> 0:30:21.640
<v Speaker 1>is the biggest one, but you also have companies that

0:30:21.720 --> 0:30:24.800
<v Speaker 1>do biogas. You have companies that make diamonds out of

0:30:25.120 --> 0:30:28.520
<v Speaker 1>captured carbon dioxide. In twenty twenty three, you also launched

0:30:28.520 --> 0:30:31.880
<v Speaker 1>a company called ecojet, and the idea was to try

0:30:31.960 --> 0:30:36.360
<v Speaker 1>and provide zero emissions flights that would be hydrogen powered

0:30:36.720 --> 0:30:41.080
<v Speaker 1>electric motors. The company at one point had seventy planes

0:30:41.080 --> 0:30:45.080
<v Speaker 1>on order, but as of January this year, it's been liquidated.

0:30:45.400 --> 0:30:48.360
<v Speaker 1>There hasn't been a single commercial flight. What went wrong?

0:30:48.480 --> 0:30:52.560
<v Speaker 2>Technology delay is as simple as that. So were we

0:30:52.560 --> 0:30:55.560
<v Speaker 2>were in the queue for some cutting edge technology. I mean,

0:30:55.600 --> 0:30:58.600
<v Speaker 2>electric motors are not that right, and fuel cells are

0:30:58.600 --> 0:31:01.080
<v Speaker 2>not that either. They've been around a long time. Combining

0:31:01.120 --> 0:31:04.600
<v Speaker 2>them into an airframe that's novel. We were aiming to

0:31:04.680 --> 0:31:07.440
<v Speaker 2>use existing airplanes, which I think is a very sustainable

0:31:07.440 --> 0:31:11.360
<v Speaker 2>thing to do. It also faster to market, and the

0:31:11.440 --> 0:31:13.760
<v Speaker 2>idea has not gone away. We've basically put it on.

0:31:13.840 --> 0:31:16.080
<v Speaker 2>We pressed the balls button, but it made sense just

0:31:16.080 --> 0:31:19.080
<v Speaker 2>to shut down while the technology company clears its hurdles.

0:31:19.120 --> 0:31:22.040
<v Speaker 2>I mean, he's been in testing with the Civil Aviation Authority.

0:31:22.080 --> 0:31:24.280
<v Speaker 2>It was quite advanced, so I'm hoping we'll get to

0:31:24.280 --> 0:31:27.160
<v Speaker 2>revisit it. The idea is really exciting because it's very

0:31:27.240 --> 0:31:29.240
<v Speaker 2>much a hearts and minds thing. When we talk about

0:31:29.240 --> 0:31:32.800
<v Speaker 2>getting to net zero or green living or whatever, most

0:31:32.800 --> 0:31:35.600
<v Speaker 2>people increasingly these days think it's about giving stuff up.

0:31:35.960 --> 0:31:38.280
<v Speaker 2>And if we can show that there's a way even

0:31:38.320 --> 0:31:40.960
<v Speaker 2>to fly in a net zero world, I think that's

0:31:40.960 --> 0:31:44.680
<v Speaker 2>a real heartsome mind winner for people. You know you

0:31:44.720 --> 0:31:47.640
<v Speaker 2>can still fly. That's a big deal. In the same

0:31:47.640 --> 0:31:51.320
<v Speaker 2>way that our sky diamond initiative. I've argued that that's

0:31:51.320 --> 0:31:53.320
<v Speaker 2>a very similar thing because people like diamonds, right, one

0:31:53.360 --> 0:31:55.440
<v Speaker 2>hundred and fifty million character a year. I think, of mind,

0:31:55.680 --> 0:31:58.360
<v Speaker 2>people like diamonds, but they're very harmful. The environment impact

0:31:58.400 --> 0:32:01.240
<v Speaker 2>is incredible. A fifth of a gramd diamond requires eleven

0:32:01.320 --> 0:32:03.360
<v Speaker 2>hundred tons of rock to be dug right, which is

0:32:03.400 --> 0:32:05.880
<v Speaker 2>my mind boggling. What we've done is mind the sky.

0:32:06.600 --> 0:32:08.960
<v Speaker 2>We take carbon dockside from the sky. We use the window,

0:32:09.000 --> 0:32:10.640
<v Speaker 2>sun and the rain. All of our ingredients are from

0:32:10.680 --> 0:32:14.640
<v Speaker 2>the sky, completely negative carbon process. The result diamonds. We

0:32:14.640 --> 0:32:17.280
<v Speaker 2>say to people that essentially our message is this, we

0:32:17.320 --> 0:32:19.560
<v Speaker 2>can have the things we like or love in this

0:32:19.640 --> 0:32:21.640
<v Speaker 2>future world. We just have to find another way to

0:32:21.640 --> 0:32:22.040
<v Speaker 2>get them.

0:32:22.120 --> 0:32:24.280
<v Speaker 1>At some point I should do an episode on diamonds

0:32:24.320 --> 0:32:28.760
<v Speaker 1>because it's the one industry whose monopoly has been broken

0:32:28.880 --> 0:32:33.040
<v Speaker 1>by a captured carbon solution, which is the only kind

0:32:33.080 --> 0:32:35.480
<v Speaker 1>of captured carbon solution that has worked at scale in

0:32:35.520 --> 0:32:40.600
<v Speaker 1>a way, even though the scale is only at carrots level. Okay,

0:32:41.040 --> 0:32:45.280
<v Speaker 1>one other question for you on electrification. This is something

0:32:45.320 --> 0:32:48.840
<v Speaker 1>you have thought about but you haven't started a company

0:32:49.080 --> 0:32:54.160
<v Speaker 1>on yet, which is electrifying trains. And to most of

0:32:54.200 --> 0:32:58.560
<v Speaker 1>our listeners outside the UK, that would sound a little odd.

0:32:59.400 --> 0:33:03.240
<v Speaker 1>Growing up in India, ninety ninety five percent of Indian

0:33:03.440 --> 0:33:08.200
<v Speaker 1>trains are now electric. Japanese Treans, Chinese treams, Spanish Streans,

0:33:08.280 --> 0:33:11.320
<v Speaker 1>French trains, they're all electric. What's wrong with Britain?

0:33:12.160 --> 0:33:15.440
<v Speaker 2>So I think the trains you're talking about probably use overheadlines, correct,

0:33:15.680 --> 0:33:17.800
<v Speaker 2>and our idea is to avoid the need for that.

0:33:17.880 --> 0:33:20.840
<v Speaker 2>It's very costly and in a let's say, relatively more

0:33:20.840 --> 0:33:24.440
<v Speaker 2>complicated country geographically like Britain. Let's say that India. I

0:33:24.440 --> 0:33:28.440
<v Speaker 2>don't know. Actually by imagine long distances without tunnels, I

0:33:28.480 --> 0:33:28.880
<v Speaker 2>don't know.

0:33:28.960 --> 0:33:30.360
<v Speaker 1>Well, there's lots of hills in.

0:33:30.640 --> 0:33:33.840
<v Speaker 2>The hills is okay, But tunnels because tunnels, because with overheadlines,

0:33:33.840 --> 0:33:36.120
<v Speaker 2>when you get to a tunnel, you have a problem.

0:33:36.640 --> 0:33:39.280
<v Speaker 2>It's not insurmountable, exactly, it's not ins but this is

0:33:39.280 --> 0:33:42.240
<v Speaker 2>a cost issue. So the cost of electrifying Britain's railways

0:33:42.240 --> 0:33:45.840
<v Speaker 2>in that traditional way is enormous. Our answer is just

0:33:45.880 --> 0:33:46.920
<v Speaker 2>to put batteries in trains.

0:33:47.040 --> 0:33:47.680
<v Speaker 1>Are you doing it?

0:33:48.320 --> 0:33:52.720
<v Speaker 2>We are actually in joint venture discussions with the train

0:33:52.800 --> 0:33:56.760
<v Speaker 2>company to run a pilot service in Britain. I don't

0:33:56.760 --> 0:33:59.720
<v Speaker 2>know if it's like a fifty mile town to town

0:33:59.760 --> 0:34:02.560
<v Speaker 2>type thing. So the answer is almost, we're almost doing it.

0:34:02.800 --> 0:34:06.200
<v Speaker 2>And here's the thing. I built Britain's first electric car

0:34:06.240 --> 0:34:09.279
<v Speaker 2>in twenty ten, and back then the batteries were new,

0:34:09.280 --> 0:34:11.200
<v Speaker 2>the motors were all coming out of R and D,

0:34:11.800 --> 0:34:14.120
<v Speaker 2>and I always wanted to build a motorcycle, which is

0:34:14.719 --> 0:34:16.400
<v Speaker 2>which is harder. What I'm trying to say is that

0:34:16.440 --> 0:34:20.319
<v Speaker 2>if you look at the efficiency of different forms of transport,

0:34:20.600 --> 0:34:22.720
<v Speaker 2>there's a big difference between the efficiency of a car,

0:34:22.920 --> 0:34:25.399
<v Speaker 2>a truck and a train and a car will take

0:34:25.400 --> 0:34:30.400
<v Speaker 2>one ton on one unit of fuel fifty miles, a

0:34:30.440 --> 0:34:32.520
<v Speaker 2>truck will take the same one ton on the same

0:34:32.600 --> 0:34:34.799
<v Speaker 2>unit of fuel one hundred and fifty miles, and a

0:34:34.880 --> 0:34:37.759
<v Speaker 2>train will take the same one ton on the same

0:34:37.840 --> 0:34:41.760
<v Speaker 2>unit of fuel five hundred miles. There's a massive It's

0:34:41.960 --> 0:34:44.280
<v Speaker 2>ten times more effective than a car, and we've cracked

0:34:44.360 --> 0:34:47.560
<v Speaker 2>the relationship between car and battery and range. We can

0:34:47.600 --> 0:34:49.440
<v Speaker 2>absolutely do that with a train. I don't know if

0:34:49.440 --> 0:34:50.879
<v Speaker 2>you ever had a train set when you're a kid,

0:34:51.760 --> 0:34:54.520
<v Speaker 2>one that you put the little batteries in. It's just

0:34:54.600 --> 0:34:57.359
<v Speaker 2>like that, and patteries are so effective today. I mean,

0:34:57.360 --> 0:34:59.640
<v Speaker 2>we're just putting some new batteries into a motorcycle that

0:34:59.760 --> 0:35:02.959
<v Speaker 2>have double the power capacity of the Oldlymian. Once it's changed,

0:35:03.040 --> 0:35:05.040
<v Speaker 2>just like that, and it will change again and keep changing.

0:35:05.800 --> 0:35:08.080
<v Speaker 1>Coming to the policy side, though, there is an aspect

0:35:08.120 --> 0:35:10.800
<v Speaker 1>of politics that you would understand, which is once a

0:35:10.880 --> 0:35:15.360
<v Speaker 1>government sets out as policy, and then because there's new information,

0:35:15.440 --> 0:35:22.440
<v Speaker 1>new technology, new reports, if it changes its mind, it

0:35:22.440 --> 0:35:25.880
<v Speaker 1>would be seen. For example, if it cancels heat pump subsidies,

0:35:26.120 --> 0:35:28.880
<v Speaker 1>it'll be seen as labor rowing back on climate policy.

0:35:28.920 --> 0:35:31.600
<v Speaker 1>If it does so. In carbon capture labor rowing back

0:35:31.640 --> 0:35:36.000
<v Speaker 1>on climate policy. How do you suggest a government deal

0:35:36.040 --> 0:35:38.920
<v Speaker 1>with that kind of criticism, Because it's not just that

0:35:38.960 --> 0:35:41.160
<v Speaker 1>the right is moved away from climate, the left has

0:35:41.200 --> 0:35:44.200
<v Speaker 1>also dug deeper on climate. The Green Party is really

0:35:44.360 --> 0:35:49.399
<v Speaker 1>popular right now, so the Labor Party is losing its

0:35:49.440 --> 0:35:51.880
<v Speaker 1>vote share not just to the right but also to

0:35:51.960 --> 0:35:55.399
<v Speaker 1>the left. And how do you maintain that vote share

0:35:55.800 --> 0:35:57.760
<v Speaker 1>and deal with those types of criticism?

0:35:57.840 --> 0:36:04.080
<v Speaker 2>I understand ecopragmais is my answer. We have to acknowledge

0:36:04.400 --> 0:36:07.720
<v Speaker 2>the big costs of these programs deep into the future,

0:36:07.200 --> 0:36:13.120
<v Speaker 2>the unlikely impact on our carbon targets if you look

0:36:13.120 --> 0:36:17.319
<v Speaker 2>at them, and the priorities of everyday people that are

0:36:17.320 --> 0:36:21.080
<v Speaker 2>more immediate. So x ecopagmtisms say, yes, we still adhere

0:36:21.080 --> 0:36:24.320
<v Speaker 2>to our net zero targets, but this spending of money

0:36:24.360 --> 0:36:26.319
<v Speaker 2>is not a good spending of money. We acknowledge the

0:36:26.360 --> 0:36:29.160
<v Speaker 2>concerns of the public on this, and we move on.

0:36:29.239 --> 0:36:32.120
<v Speaker 2>And I say, stop talking about net zero and talk

0:36:32.160 --> 0:36:34.919
<v Speaker 2>about the green economy, because net zero is about giving

0:36:34.960 --> 0:36:37.120
<v Speaker 2>stuff up, and it's become a bit of a crusade

0:36:37.320 --> 0:36:40.080
<v Speaker 2>and it's polarized the public. Let's talk in steid about

0:36:40.080 --> 0:36:43.120
<v Speaker 2>the green economy, the jobs, the GDP, sustainable growth, that

0:36:43.200 --> 0:36:45.040
<v Speaker 2>kind of stuff that we gain, not what we lose.

0:36:46.000 --> 0:36:49.200
<v Speaker 1>Where the politics in this country stands today, it's likely

0:36:49.239 --> 0:36:52.239
<v Speaker 1>that the next general election will have net zero as

0:36:52.320 --> 0:36:58.520
<v Speaker 1>either the main stress point between parties, between Reform and

0:36:58.600 --> 0:37:01.040
<v Speaker 1>Conservatives on one side don't want net zero, and then

0:37:01.120 --> 0:37:04.759
<v Speaker 1>Labor and Green and libdam's who want net zero? You know,

0:37:05.000 --> 0:37:07.279
<v Speaker 1>ten years ago Brexit happened and then we've had six

0:37:07.320 --> 0:37:12.480
<v Speaker 1>prime ministers since and that was a divisive issue. Does

0:37:12.560 --> 0:37:13.520
<v Speaker 1>net zero become that?

0:37:13.920 --> 0:37:15.759
<v Speaker 2>I think it is that, but I don't think it

0:37:15.800 --> 0:37:18.279
<v Speaker 2>has to be the way that you forecast at the

0:37:18.320 --> 0:37:21.160
<v Speaker 2>next general election. I think if Labor get busy and

0:37:21.200 --> 0:37:23.960
<v Speaker 2>then bold, then we can transform the cost of living.

0:37:24.040 --> 0:37:26.560
<v Speaker 2>We can half the price of energy. We can one

0:37:26.560 --> 0:37:30.400
<v Speaker 2>of our proposers as a national solar rooftop program to

0:37:30.480 --> 0:37:33.319
<v Speaker 2>put sort of on five million public sector homes to

0:37:33.320 --> 0:37:35.480
<v Speaker 2>give people a real experience of the green economy, the

0:37:35.520 --> 0:37:37.520
<v Speaker 2>lower energy builds and that kind of stuff. We can

0:37:37.560 --> 0:37:40.680
<v Speaker 2>transform the landscape in the next three years. And we

0:37:40.719 --> 0:37:42.640
<v Speaker 2>don't need to argue for net zero. I say, don't

0:37:42.719 --> 0:37:44.640
<v Speaker 2>argue for it at all. Talk about the green economy,

0:37:44.760 --> 0:37:47.560
<v Speaker 2>show the benefits that we're getting from that economy and

0:37:47.960 --> 0:37:50.760
<v Speaker 2>how important that transition is. To give you an example,

0:37:50.800 --> 0:37:53.719
<v Speaker 2>some years ago, maybe four, now, maybe five, not really sure,

0:37:54.160 --> 0:37:57.880
<v Speaker 2>we stopped arguing for green energy on the basis of

0:37:57.960 --> 0:38:00.719
<v Speaker 2>the climate. We just stopped and we started to talk

0:38:00.760 --> 0:38:05.240
<v Speaker 2>about energy independence, and it's a really popular term and concept,

0:38:05.239 --> 0:38:07.880
<v Speaker 2>and we said, it's not about ice caps and polar bears.

0:38:07.960 --> 0:38:10.880
<v Speaker 2>Actually it's about jobs and GDP. It's a different presentation

0:38:10.960 --> 0:38:13.400
<v Speaker 2>of the same thing. We get to fight climate and

0:38:13.480 --> 0:38:16.520
<v Speaker 2>get to net zero at the same time. But that's

0:38:16.560 --> 0:38:19.800
<v Speaker 2>the kind of unseen benefit. That's not the forefront argument,

0:38:19.840 --> 0:38:21.200
<v Speaker 2>it's just the background impact.

0:38:21.480 --> 0:38:24.600
<v Speaker 1>Is that how you think Burnham should deal with Trump.

0:38:25.160 --> 0:38:27.520
<v Speaker 2>I think he should tell Trump to keep his nose out,

0:38:28.200 --> 0:38:29.719
<v Speaker 2>And that's a different thing. This is how I think

0:38:29.760 --> 0:38:32.359
<v Speaker 2>Burnham should deal with the public and with reform. And

0:38:32.400 --> 0:38:35.360
<v Speaker 2>this toxic issue is now toxic of net zero. Pivot

0:38:35.360 --> 0:38:37.560
<v Speaker 2>away from it, focus on the green economy, take back

0:38:37.600 --> 0:38:40.400
<v Speaker 2>that fifty billion pounds half energy bills with a series

0:38:40.440 --> 0:38:44.560
<v Speaker 2>of reforms. We've got four policies that will triple GDP growth,

0:38:44.600 --> 0:38:47.480
<v Speaker 2>which I'm hoping to get in front of the new

0:38:47.480 --> 0:38:50.319
<v Speaker 2>government at some point. And I think it's all there

0:38:50.320 --> 0:38:52.400
<v Speaker 2>for us to do where we need boldness and we

0:38:52.440 --> 0:38:53.040
<v Speaker 2>haven't had it.

0:38:53.760 --> 0:39:00.480
<v Speaker 1>Thank you deal, thank you, that's great. Thank you for

0:39:00.520 --> 0:39:02.959
<v Speaker 1>listening to zero. Now for the sound of the week.

0:39:13.880 --> 0:39:16.319
<v Speaker 1>That is the sound of a firefighting plane picking up

0:39:16.360 --> 0:39:20.720
<v Speaker 1>water to help put out wildfires. If you liked this episode,

0:39:20.760 --> 0:39:22.520
<v Speaker 1>please take a moment to rate and review the show

0:39:22.560 --> 0:39:26.200
<v Speaker 1>on Apple Podcasts, YouTube, and Spotify. This episode was produced

0:39:26.200 --> 0:39:29.320
<v Speaker 1>by Oscar boyd Our. Theme music is composed by Wonder Lee.

0:39:29.520 --> 0:39:33.799
<v Speaker 1>Special thanks to Amin Farath, Lucy White, Olivia Rudgaard, Samersadi,

0:39:34.040 --> 0:39:39.360
<v Speaker 1>Laura Milan, Summer Maxwell, and Alyssa McDonald. I'm Makshadrati back soon.