WEBVTT - Rick Mitarotonda 0:00:08.560 --> 0:00:12.880 Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Lessnett's Podcast. My 0:00:13.000 --> 0:00:18.120 guest today is Rick Matera Tanda a Goose. Rick, how 0:00:18.160 --> 0:00:20.320 did it feel to play Madison Square Garden? 0:00:21.160 --> 0:00:24.599 Thanks? Thanks for having me, Bob. Felt surreal for sure. 0:00:24.640 --> 0:00:27.159 I mean, I grew up in Connecticut and that's you know, 0:00:28.040 --> 0:00:31.440 that's it, you know, bears a lot of weight in 0:00:31.520 --> 0:00:33.920 our world in many ways. So yeah, it was. It 0:00:33.960 --> 0:00:37.640 was a wild experience. You know. It's just really grateful 0:00:37.640 --> 0:00:39.479 that we were able to do it. 0:00:40.440 --> 0:00:45.320 And any difference other than you know, the Gravitas location, 0:00:46.280 --> 0:00:49.199 Was there any different thing in the show or the 0:00:49.280 --> 0:00:52.040 fact that there were fifteen thousand people. 0:00:51.720 --> 0:00:56.920 There in terms of our show? Yeah, we what we did. 0:00:57.200 --> 0:01:00.560 I mean, there's there's so much, you know, like like 0:01:00.600 --> 0:01:02.960 you said, the gravity toss of the whole thing. There's 0:01:02.960 --> 0:01:07.720 there's so much uh lore and history and every so 0:01:07.800 --> 0:01:12.839 many respects that you know, I think we obviously we're 0:01:13.000 --> 0:01:15.759 readily aware of all that, and UH just did our 0:01:15.760 --> 0:01:20.800 best to to you know, to bring the heat, I guess, 0:01:21.200 --> 0:01:23.160 to uh to do to do what we do, try 0:01:23.200 --> 0:01:24.160 to show up and be present. 0:01:24.240 --> 0:01:30.640 You know. So you're from Wilton, Connecticut, Yeah, I'm from Fairfield, 0:01:30.760 --> 0:01:37.039 which is right now exactly. So you grew up in Wilton. 0:01:37.080 --> 0:01:38.679 What did your parents do for a living? 0:01:41.160 --> 0:01:44.959 They both worked in insurance. I think when I was 0:01:45.000 --> 0:01:49.200 born my mom stopped working in insurance. My dad kept 0:01:49.400 --> 0:01:53.400 kept working in insurance reinsurance and you know, kind of 0:01:53.400 --> 0:01:54.840 worked his way up in that industry. 0:01:55.520 --> 0:01:57.680 And did he work in the city or you know, 0:01:57.880 --> 0:01:58.880 Wilton Westport? 0:01:59.800 --> 0:02:02.000 Uh? He was worked mostly in Stanford as far as 0:02:02.160 --> 0:02:03.880 I can recall. I think he was bouncing around a 0:02:03.920 --> 0:02:05.560 different companies, mostly in Stanford. 0:02:06.560 --> 0:02:08.080 And how many kids in the family. 0:02:09.520 --> 0:02:11.760 It's me and I have a sister. He's ten years 0:02:11.760 --> 0:02:12.200 older than me. 0:02:12.960 --> 0:02:13.880 And what's she up to. 0:02:15.000 --> 0:02:18.680 She's a teacher. She's got three little boys, and she 0:02:18.760 --> 0:02:20.840 lives she lives in Richfield a couple times. 0:02:20.880 --> 0:02:26.120 Okay, Ridgefield Playhouse. So you're growing up. Was there music 0:02:26.160 --> 0:02:28.600 in the house? Yeah? 0:02:28.639 --> 0:02:31.520 My dad was from Long Island and so you know, 0:02:31.560 --> 0:02:33.440 there's like a lot of Billy Joel and he was 0:02:33.440 --> 0:02:37.400 into smooth jazz there, you know, some jazz guitar players, 0:02:37.400 --> 0:02:41.200 but kind of like you know, like Larry Coriel. He 0:02:41.320 --> 0:02:44.400 liked a lot, so it was kind of random stuff. 0:02:44.919 --> 0:02:49.680 He liked Springsteen, he liked Delvert McClinton a lot, which 0:02:49.880 --> 0:02:53.040 you know sometimes we gave him a hard time about that. 0:02:53.120 --> 0:02:58.240 But why a hard time about Delvert McClinton. 0:02:59.360 --> 0:03:01.960 It kind of just be came a joke, No, no 0:03:02.040 --> 0:03:05.680 shade to Delbert whatsoever, but it just it just became 0:03:05.800 --> 0:03:08.720 this this stick where my mom and I would would 0:03:08.919 --> 0:03:11.520 bust his chops about his his Delbert obsession. 0:03:12.880 --> 0:03:16.120 Sandy Beach is good song there by DOUBLET mcclinn. So 0:03:17.480 --> 0:03:20.000 did you listen to his music and like his music 0:03:20.120 --> 0:03:21.920 or did you quickly get your own music? 0:03:23.520 --> 0:03:26.840 Billie Joel took from a from a young age. You know, 0:03:26.880 --> 0:03:30.600 I I started really uh loving some of those songs 0:03:30.600 --> 0:03:33.359 when I would ride in his car and stuff. But 0:03:33.960 --> 0:03:36.240 I think, you know, my sister listened to Dave Matthews 0:03:36.240 --> 0:03:38.120 a lot when I was when I was, you know, 0:03:38.360 --> 0:03:41.400 a very young kid, and that that took even more 0:03:41.480 --> 0:03:43.440 took a minute. I didn't like it. It didn't speak to 0:03:43.440 --> 0:03:46.440 me at first when I was really young, but at 0:03:46.600 --> 0:03:48.600 you know, at a certain point that one, that one 0:03:48.640 --> 0:03:49.920 really kind of took hold. 0:03:50.760 --> 0:03:55.120 And when did you start playing an instrument? Uh? 0:03:55.360 --> 0:03:58.560 Sixth grade was the they rented a guitar for the 0:03:58.560 --> 0:04:01.680 first time for me, and I took a couple lessons. 0:04:02.880 --> 0:04:04.480 So yeah, I was probably eleven or twelve. 0:04:05.360 --> 0:04:07.840 So what was the motivation for them to rent a 0:04:07.880 --> 0:04:08.600 guitar for you? 0:04:09.880 --> 0:04:12.520 I had been asking for a while. I had a 0:04:12.800 --> 0:04:16.120 music had just a like a crazy effect on me 0:04:16.160 --> 0:04:18.080 as a kid. Any anything I listened to. I mean 0:04:18.120 --> 0:04:20.159 I remember like it was the you know, the CD era, 0:04:20.320 --> 0:04:23.640 so I got like the space dram sound. It really 0:04:23.680 --> 0:04:26.560 didn't matter it was I had a discman, I'd walk 0:04:26.600 --> 0:04:29.360 around and with my little headphones and listen to whatever 0:04:29.400 --> 0:04:31.919 CD I could get my hands on, and things just 0:04:32.000 --> 0:04:34.080 had like a they just made me feel like a 0:04:34.279 --> 0:04:37.159 like a crazy person, you know, had had a profound effect. 0:04:37.200 --> 0:04:40.159 So I was always drawn to it. I was always, 0:04:40.279 --> 0:04:44.920 you know, pretty intensely moved by it. And then seeing older, 0:04:45.640 --> 0:04:49.279 older brothers and and things like that of friends of 0:04:49.279 --> 0:04:53.480 mine playing guitar. There's you know a few experiences like that, right. 0:04:53.520 --> 0:04:56.200 I saw someone playing you know, smells like teen spirit 0:04:56.279 --> 0:04:58.760 on a guitar, and I was like, whoa, yeah that 0:04:59.400 --> 0:05:00.240 I want to do that. 0:05:01.080 --> 0:05:03.560 So they rented the guitar. What were lessons like. 0:05:05.680 --> 0:05:08.920 Those? First? The first couple lessons, I don't even remember, honestly, 0:05:09.680 --> 0:05:12.880 I started studying with a guy named Bob Ricchio in 0:05:12.880 --> 0:05:16.400 in Wilton, and uh, it was a kind of a 0:05:16.440 --> 0:05:19.080 slow start in the beginning. I you know, I liked 0:05:19.160 --> 0:05:22.880 to play music that I you know, liked in that 0:05:23.279 --> 0:05:26.880 you know, like recordings of some great songs and pretend 0:05:26.960 --> 0:05:29.160 like I was playing it like I knew what I 0:05:29.200 --> 0:05:31.960 was doing, and I really didn't. And I also started 0:05:31.960 --> 0:05:35.680 writing kind of right away before I had any discipline 0:05:35.720 --> 0:05:37.960 with practicing or anything like that. I started if I 0:05:38.040 --> 0:05:40.680 learned a chord or something, I just started making up songs. 0:05:41.600 --> 0:05:43.320 That was. That was kind of something that happened right 0:05:43.360 --> 0:05:47.719 out of the gate. But the discipline to start actually 0:05:47.839 --> 0:05:50.480 studying music and working on and practicing took took a 0:05:50.520 --> 0:05:53.600 little bit for me, didn't. It didn't happen right away. 0:05:53.960 --> 0:05:57.520 Well, starting writing songs, was it something like you'd been 0:05:57.560 --> 0:06:02.039 writing before, non musical stuff? Poet three short stories? Where 0:06:02.080 --> 0:06:05.480 did the genesis come from? 0:06:06.520 --> 0:06:08.240 You know? When I was when I was really young, 0:06:08.279 --> 0:06:11.520 I would I would, you know, make up little little 0:06:11.880 --> 0:06:13.960 like really silly little things and be like, hey, you 0:06:13.960 --> 0:06:15.440 want to hear my song. It's going to be some 0:06:15.520 --> 0:06:17.440 silly little thing, but really not not much of that. 0:06:17.480 --> 0:06:20.640 I wasn't writing a ton of poetry prior to that 0:06:20.640 --> 0:06:23.520 that I recall at least stuff to remember some of 0:06:23.560 --> 0:06:27.400 these things sometimes. But I think when I when I started, 0:06:28.040 --> 0:06:29.520 you know, when I got a guitar and started really 0:06:29.560 --> 0:06:31.680 getting into music, it just it all kind of happened 0:06:31.680 --> 0:06:35.520 at once around that Around that time, you know, the 0:06:36.120 --> 0:06:37.840 music kind of came first, and then I was like, well, 0:06:37.880 --> 0:06:40.679 I'm just going to write lyrics for this and write songs. 0:06:41.160 --> 0:06:43.919 So I wrote little songs about you know, bullies at school, 0:06:44.240 --> 0:06:49.000 whatever whatever it was, and quickly got into recording with whatever, 0:06:50.320 --> 0:06:52.880 you know, whatever kind of recording apparatus I could get 0:06:52.920 --> 0:06:55.200 my hands on at the time, which you know, I 0:06:55.240 --> 0:06:57.680 could started with like a little cassette recorder thing, which 0:06:57.760 --> 0:06:58.200 was awesome. 0:06:58.400 --> 0:07:01.680 Okay, if you're writing a bullies at school, were you 0:07:01.760 --> 0:07:02.760 bullied at school? 0:07:04.360 --> 0:07:07.960 Uh? Not not particularly, but I just like, I mean, 0:07:08.000 --> 0:07:11.680 sometimes sometimes I get there. There's there's definitely certain situations 0:07:11.680 --> 0:07:14.280 where I, uh, you know, I caught a caught a 0:07:14.280 --> 0:07:18.280 hard time. But it was also like, when I think 0:07:18.320 --> 0:07:20.360 back to that was kind of an observational thing too, 0:07:20.760 --> 0:07:24.559 just like seeing seeing people going through their own stuff, 0:07:24.600 --> 0:07:28.080 but then like taking it out on other people that 0:07:28.720 --> 0:07:31.200 I don't know. I just the first song I kind 0:07:31.200 --> 0:07:32.640 of remember writing was about that. 0:07:33.920 --> 0:07:36.760 And how did you fit in in school? 0:07:38.000 --> 0:07:41.880 I went through like different phases. There's a bunch I 0:07:41.880 --> 0:07:44.560 think a good number of years I was pretty quiet. 0:07:44.760 --> 0:07:46.600 It kind of like phase in and out of different 0:07:46.680 --> 0:07:50.840 zones and then sometimes you know, it kind of had 0:07:50.880 --> 0:07:53.120 this pattern of like I'd go into a new school 0:07:53.320 --> 0:07:56.040 and you know, kind of had like the slate would 0:07:56.040 --> 0:07:58.240 be clean, and I would I'd be really quiet and 0:07:58.280 --> 0:08:00.560 kind of keep to myself and really shy. I was 0:08:00.600 --> 0:08:02.480 pretty like, I was pretty shy. I've always been pretty 0:08:02.480 --> 0:08:06.280 shy and like socially anxious. But then you know, by 0:08:06.280 --> 0:08:08.360 the end of my time out of school, i'd have, 0:08:09.280 --> 0:08:13.320 you know, a group of friends and a little micro 0:08:13.560 --> 0:08:16.840 community kind of thing, and it changed forms a bunch. 0:08:16.920 --> 0:08:20.120 But yeah, you know, when I was really young, I 0:08:20.160 --> 0:08:21.960 was I was less shy, and then I think when 0:08:21.960 --> 0:08:24.000 I hit middle school is when I started getting really 0:08:24.080 --> 0:08:25.760 shy and awkward and anxious. 0:08:27.640 --> 0:08:31.560 So did you do well in school? Did you participate 0:08:31.600 --> 0:08:33.160 in activity sports? 0:08:35.679 --> 0:08:40.720 I played sports up into up until high school, and uh, 0:08:41.040 --> 0:08:43.600 and I had a really good time doing it. I 0:08:43.640 --> 0:08:49.160 played baseball the most, the longest, I would say, But yeah, 0:08:49.200 --> 0:08:50.720 by the time I got to high school was it 0:08:50.760 --> 0:08:54.120 was kind of like I saw that the the demands 0:08:54.200 --> 0:08:56.840 that you know, playing sports in high school had, and 0:08:57.080 --> 0:08:59.040 by that time I was already way too set on 0:09:00.120 --> 0:09:02.720 pursuing music and I wanted to kind of do everything 0:09:02.880 --> 0:09:07.319 I could do in that regard. So yeah, I kind 0:09:07.320 --> 0:09:10.199 of made the conscious decisions to not to stop playing sports. 0:09:10.200 --> 0:09:13.160 By by high school school I was, I was, I 0:09:13.200 --> 0:09:17.200 was like, all right, it wasn't great. Definitely wasn't That 0:09:17.480 --> 0:09:20.360 didn't come super easily to me. Some some subjects were 0:09:20.400 --> 0:09:23.640 easier than others. But it wasn't like a it wasn't 0:09:23.679 --> 0:09:25.800 a total mess, but you know, it wasn't great. 0:09:26.600 --> 0:09:30.959 So you're taking lessons. What is your teacher teaching you? 0:09:31.000 --> 0:09:32.319 And are you practicing? 0:09:34.400 --> 0:09:36.640 And the beginning is kind of the route of, you know, 0:09:36.720 --> 0:09:40.320 the the typical rudimentary stuff. You know, he showed me, 0:09:40.400 --> 0:09:42.720 like a chili pepper song and he kind of showing 0:09:42.800 --> 0:09:45.559 showing songs and licks and stuff like that, and chords. 0:09:46.480 --> 0:09:48.200 He was he was a good teacher in that way, 0:09:48.200 --> 0:09:49.559 and he taught a lot of people, a lot of 0:09:49.640 --> 0:09:55.440 kids in in the town. There and uh, I you 0:09:55.480 --> 0:09:57.200 know it, like I said, it took me a while 0:09:57.240 --> 0:10:01.720 before I started gaining gaining any discipline or getting serious 0:10:01.720 --> 0:10:05.400 about it or you know, showing real progress in that regard. 0:10:05.800 --> 0:10:08.360 I was always taken with it, but you know, it 0:10:08.480 --> 0:10:11.600 was more in the writing, in the creative, creative side. 0:10:12.160 --> 0:10:15.120 And then at a certain point, Uh, that started to 0:10:15.160 --> 0:10:17.720 shift throughout middle school, I would say, And and I 0:10:17.760 --> 0:10:19.640 think by the you know, there was there was a 0:10:19.679 --> 0:10:22.440 turning point with him where he started to realize that 0:10:22.480 --> 0:10:24.959 I was I was really I was taking it seriously 0:10:25.000 --> 0:10:27.080 and pursuing it. And when he saw that I was 0:10:27.120 --> 0:10:30.240 starting to make strides, he started pushing me more and 0:10:30.280 --> 0:10:33.960 more into jazz and started teaching me jazz. That was 0:10:34.000 --> 0:10:36.040 That was kind of where that journey started in a 0:10:36.080 --> 0:10:36.560 lot of ways. 0:10:36.800 --> 0:10:40.679 I would say, So, did he teach you how to 0:10:40.679 --> 0:10:42.680 read music? Can you read music today? 0:10:44.840 --> 0:10:48.760 Not proficiently? He did? You know? That was something that 0:10:48.800 --> 0:10:51.200 he taught and we're worked on and you know, I 0:10:51.240 --> 0:10:53.000 went to I went to music school, so it was 0:10:53.080 --> 0:10:54.280 it was part of that, but I kind of just 0:10:54.320 --> 0:10:57.200 got by with it. It was never it was never 0:10:57.240 --> 0:11:00.000 something that was that I became, you know, very very 0:11:00.880 --> 0:11:01.920 competent with. 0:11:02.840 --> 0:11:06.000 So he got you into jazz. What kind of jazz. 0:11:09.840 --> 0:11:12.960 He you know, he just started throwing standards at me 0:11:13.160 --> 0:11:15.920 and and teaching, you know, showing me how to get 0:11:15.920 --> 0:11:19.040 through the chord changes and and uh and stuff like that. 0:11:19.080 --> 0:11:22.320 There wasn't I didn't really get a knack for playing 0:11:22.360 --> 0:11:26.880 through changes until I did a summer program at Berkeley. Well, 0:11:26.960 --> 0:11:29.600 some summer I was in high school. I did like 0:11:29.679 --> 0:11:31.600 a I don't know if that was the one week 0:11:31.600 --> 0:11:33.760 guitar thing or the five week program. I forget what 0:11:33.800 --> 0:11:38.480 it was, but they you know, I went and did 0:11:38.480 --> 0:11:41.240 this ensemble and they put five hundred miles high. It 0:11:41.400 --> 0:11:44.880 was the Chickeria tune in front of me, and and 0:11:45.120 --> 0:11:47.280 I was still I still really didn't know what I 0:11:47.320 --> 0:11:49.240 was doing. At that point. I could, I could solo, 0:11:49.640 --> 0:11:52.000 you know over a modal thing. But you know, the 0:11:52.040 --> 0:11:56.760 first quarter was E minor, and you know, the head 0:11:56.760 --> 0:11:58.560 came around. I learned the head and played the head, 0:11:58.559 --> 0:12:00.400 and then solo came around. Everyone look to me and 0:12:00.400 --> 0:12:02.760 they're like, all right, you know, go and I was 0:12:02.800 --> 0:12:05.439 like E minor cool, got it and started selling over 0:12:05.480 --> 0:12:07.240 E minor. The second chord is G minor, which is 0:12:07.240 --> 0:12:10.520 like a total total change, and uh, you know, I 0:12:10.720 --> 0:12:12.920 kept selling an E minor and sounded like a total dufist. 0:12:13.080 --> 0:12:16.319 So that was like the wake up of what that 0:12:16.760 --> 0:12:21.000 is was really all about. And uh that that was 0:12:21.040 --> 0:12:23.200 like the turning point there for me, which was like, 0:12:23.480 --> 0:12:24.840 it was a really cool moment for me in my 0:12:25.160 --> 0:12:28.960 musical journey, I guess because I just took that tune 0:12:29.120 --> 0:12:32.080 and sat down and learned the chord scales for every 0:12:32.480 --> 0:12:35.120 every change and learned it in each position. And then 0:12:35.320 --> 0:12:37.240 you know, that was that was kind of the the 0:12:37.280 --> 0:12:42.040 impetus and in the moment catalyst for learning that type 0:12:42.040 --> 0:12:44.079 of thing, which was a cool experience. 0:12:44.600 --> 0:12:48.840 Okay, let's go back. You start writing songs. Most people 0:12:48.920 --> 0:12:52.599 start writing songs think their initial songs are fantastic and 0:12:52.679 --> 0:12:56.000 want to play them for people. Later they realized they sucked, 0:12:56.000 --> 0:12:59.119 but at first they think they're great. Welling through your mind. 0:13:01.280 --> 0:13:04.440 You know, I think back to that period so often, 0:13:04.559 --> 0:13:09.040 especially now, the freedom I had at that age that 0:13:09.080 --> 0:13:11.440 I think everyone has at that age in one way 0:13:11.520 --> 0:13:15.520 or another, and I imagine that you know, it varies 0:13:15.600 --> 0:13:22.880 quite a bit. I you know, can't can't under undervalue 0:13:23.000 --> 0:13:26.960 or or you know, I can't stress enough how how 0:13:27.000 --> 0:13:29.680 incredible was to have parents that were really supportive and 0:13:29.679 --> 0:13:34.600 and you know kind of we're there for it, whatever 0:13:34.640 --> 0:13:39.880 it was. But uh, yeah I didn't. I don't. I 0:13:39.920 --> 0:13:41.680 wasn't thinking about if they were good or not. And 0:13:41.679 --> 0:13:44.160 I wasn't trying to I wasn't trying to go out 0:13:44.200 --> 0:13:46.160 and play play them at gigs. I wasn't trying to 0:13:46.160 --> 0:13:48.400 play them for people or like trying to do anything 0:13:48.440 --> 0:13:53.680 with them. The the discovery of them, like figuring out 0:13:53.800 --> 0:13:56.880 of learning some chords and finding a new chord progression 0:13:56.880 --> 0:13:59.599 that I hadn't I don't know, just discovering this the 0:13:59.720 --> 0:14:02.200 sound of a new chord progression and then writing a 0:14:02.240 --> 0:14:04.000 song and then recording a song. That's really all I 0:14:04.000 --> 0:14:06.400 wanted to do, was like write these songs and record them. 0:14:06.640 --> 0:14:10.040 And that thing was just like the most thrilling process. 0:14:11.640 --> 0:14:13.640 That was the most thrilling thing I could possibly do 0:14:13.679 --> 0:14:17.040 with my time at that time. And yeah, there there wasn't. 0:14:17.120 --> 0:14:20.800 I really wasn't thinking about playing gigs or or or 0:14:20.840 --> 0:14:25.400 doing anything with it. It. Eventually, I you know, got 0:14:25.400 --> 0:14:29.200 a band together, I got a got my best friend 0:14:29.200 --> 0:14:33.160 to start playing bass, and and we you know, found 0:14:33.160 --> 0:14:35.160 another guy who we were friends with at school and 0:14:35.200 --> 0:14:37.760 he was playing drums. We had a trio and by 0:14:37.760 --> 0:14:40.360 eighth grade we recorded like an album in my in 0:14:40.400 --> 0:14:43.760 my basement with a little cork twelve track you know, 0:14:43.920 --> 0:14:45.880 you just burn you bounce everything down into a CD 0:14:46.040 --> 0:14:50.120 and I you know, uh copied a bunch of CDs 0:14:50.160 --> 0:14:52.560 and sold him around school and that was like it 0:14:52.600 --> 0:14:54.600 was it was this just the purity of the whole 0:14:54.640 --> 0:14:58.600 thing was just I you know, I think back to 0:14:58.640 --> 0:15:00.640 it all the time. It was kind of doesn't get 0:15:00.680 --> 0:15:01.160 better than that. 0:15:02.160 --> 0:15:02.320 You know. 0:15:02.360 --> 0:15:05.640 We'd get have like band practice once a week after school, 0:15:05.720 --> 0:15:07.520 come home and eat popcorn chicken and go down to 0:15:07.560 --> 0:15:09.880 the basement and just you know, whack it around. And 0:15:09.960 --> 0:15:12.880 it was it was like that's it still feels like 0:15:12.920 --> 0:15:18.800 that's what it's all about, you know. But uh, yeah, 0:15:18.960 --> 0:15:21.760 that you know, it wasn't uh. I think the only 0:15:21.840 --> 0:15:24.120 show we really ever played was the Talent Show in 0:15:24.120 --> 0:15:29.320 eighth grade, which I was you know, that was the 0:15:29.320 --> 0:15:32.160 first time I'd really performed. I think the Talent Show 0:15:32.200 --> 0:15:34.080 in eighth grade. You know, we had we had made 0:15:34.120 --> 0:15:36.680 this this this album had like fifteen tracks on it 0:15:36.720 --> 0:15:41.160 and sold around school and had never played out anywhere, 0:15:41.240 --> 0:15:44.320 but never played live or anything like that, and uh, 0:15:44.720 --> 0:15:46.920 you know, it was this. It was this like the 0:15:47.040 --> 0:15:49.040 night the day of the thing, Everyone's like you nervous. 0:15:49.080 --> 0:15:50.680 I was like, no, I feel totally fine. And then 0:15:50.680 --> 0:15:53.440 I just like threw up everywhere. So I guess that 0:15:54.160 --> 0:15:58.560 was the the maiden voyage of learning what what performance 0:15:58.600 --> 0:16:02.080 anxiety does to my nervous system. But yeah, it was 0:16:02.160 --> 0:16:04.800 It was a it was a funny experience. 0:16:05.600 --> 0:16:08.360 Okay, you say about recording to cassette, did you have 0:16:08.960 --> 0:16:12.280 a four track poored a studio? When you're talking about cassette, 0:16:12.400 --> 0:16:13.880 how sophisticated was it? 0:16:15.280 --> 0:16:17.920 The cassette thing was very unsophisticated. It wasn't even a 0:16:17.920 --> 0:16:20.400 four track, and I barely remember that it was pretty 0:16:20.600 --> 0:16:23.280 it was fairly short lived. That was like that was 0:16:23.280 --> 0:16:25.640 in the early early stages. And I honestly don't even 0:16:25.680 --> 0:16:28.280 know what that thing was and where it came from. 0:16:28.560 --> 0:16:30.600 I just remember sitting in my bedroom and it just 0:16:30.680 --> 0:16:33.360 had like a built in microphone and it was I 0:16:33.360 --> 0:16:35.440 think you could I don't even know if you could, 0:16:35.680 --> 0:16:37.680 if if you could layer anything, it might have just 0:16:37.680 --> 0:16:41.600 been like a one done kind of situation. But I 0:16:41.600 --> 0:16:45.080 remember I would, like, you know, play and sing and record, 0:16:45.120 --> 0:16:47.400 and then have had a buddy who was like kind 0:16:47.400 --> 0:16:49.600 of starting to learn drums. It was like early early, 0:16:49.640 --> 0:16:51.880 the first things. And he he didn't have a drum set, 0:16:51.920 --> 0:16:54.160 but he was taking drum lessons and he had a 0:16:54.200 --> 0:16:56.320 practice pad, so he would come over and he would 0:16:56.360 --> 0:16:58.240 just like whack on the pack practice pad and I 0:16:58.280 --> 0:16:59.640 would learn it. So that was that was kind of 0:16:59.640 --> 0:17:02.440 the the first thing, which is you know, pretty short lived. 0:17:03.400 --> 0:17:05.840 So then did you graduate you're talking about you made 0:17:05.920 --> 0:17:08.919 this album? What equipment did you make the album on? 0:17:11.680 --> 0:17:14.480 By that time that was probably a couple of years later. 0:17:15.119 --> 0:17:18.439 I had this this COREK twelve track, which then I 0:17:18.480 --> 0:17:20.200 was I was you know, I spent a lot of 0:17:20.240 --> 0:17:25.200 time with that thing. I was able to you know, 0:17:25.280 --> 0:17:29.159 had twelve tracks. And then you know we had I 0:17:29.200 --> 0:17:31.960 had a few a handful of microphones enough to make 0:17:32.040 --> 0:17:35.399 up a drum set and track you know like bass, 0:17:35.520 --> 0:17:37.760 d I guitar maybe I threw a mic in the 0:17:37.760 --> 0:17:40.639 guitar amp on or do I don't even remember, and 0:17:40.680 --> 0:17:45.000 then uh, you know, a vocal mic and and you 0:17:45.040 --> 0:17:46.919 know a few mics for the drum set. So that 0:17:46.960 --> 0:17:48.639 was all going to the cork and then I would 0:17:48.640 --> 0:17:54.520 overdub vocals just to uh, you know, but I was 0:17:54.560 --> 0:17:57.479 a horrible singer. But I had no awareness I did, 0:17:57.560 --> 0:17:59.480 you know. I was just doing it, having a great time. 0:17:59.600 --> 0:18:03.840 But this singing thing was was never never there, never easy, 0:18:04.240 --> 0:18:06.919 never was I was not a natural singer by any stretch. 0:18:08.040 --> 0:18:11.239 Okay, you pick up the guitar in middle school, are 0:18:11.280 --> 0:18:14.040 you the outlier? Or is everybody playing instruments? 0:18:17.800 --> 0:18:20.840 Uh? Not necessarily, I wouldn't say either. There's like it 0:18:22.040 --> 0:18:25.960 somewhat of my minority. For sure. Everyone wasn't playing instruments, 0:18:26.040 --> 0:18:28.080 but you know, there was like you kind of knew 0:18:28.119 --> 0:18:32.200 everyone who was. There's a handful of people that were 0:18:32.200 --> 0:18:35.120 doing it, and everyone had their own kind of thing 0:18:35.200 --> 0:18:38.679 that they were doing or working on or into. So 0:18:38.680 --> 0:18:41.439 there weren't that many, but everyone was kind of aware 0:18:41.520 --> 0:18:45.840 of everyone that was that was checking it out. 0:18:46.320 --> 0:18:49.080 And when you started writing songs recording, who did you 0:18:49.160 --> 0:18:49.560 want to be? 0:18:52.400 --> 0:18:56.159 That's a good question, you know, Like in middle school, 0:18:56.240 --> 0:18:59.200 I mean, Dave Matthews was kind of this like this, uh, 0:18:59.760 --> 0:19:04.760 this touchstone throughout a lot of through really always so 0:19:04.800 --> 0:19:08.480 that that was always, you know, a big inspiration his 0:19:08.560 --> 0:19:11.720 whole world. But when I was in middle school, I had. 0:19:12.760 --> 0:19:15.960 I had this this DVD called Under the Radar. It 0:19:16.000 --> 0:19:18.680 was a Dispatch DVD, and it was it was kind 0:19:18.680 --> 0:19:21.639 of this, uh, kind of scrappy DVD of them like 0:19:21.760 --> 0:19:24.280 on the road and just doing things, going out of 0:19:24.280 --> 0:19:27.880 the studio, playing shows, to talking about their come up 0:19:27.920 --> 0:19:31.439 and Napster and that whole that whole thing. And I was, 0:19:31.600 --> 0:19:33.919 I was obsessed with that band at that time. So 0:19:34.040 --> 0:19:36.239 like I would say, in those early years of you know, 0:19:36.359 --> 0:19:37.720 whould I want to be, it was Dispatch. 0:19:38.200 --> 0:19:41.200 Okay, you got the two other members. You're in the basement. 0:19:42.240 --> 0:19:45.080 Are you a dictator saying I write all the songs, 0:19:45.320 --> 0:19:47.400 I want it this way, I want it that way. 0:19:47.880 --> 0:19:50.320 And they were just basically I don't want to see 0:19:50.359 --> 0:19:53.679 your servants going along with you. What did it look like? 0:19:56.520 --> 0:20:00.280 Uh, I don't remember it being like that, And I said, certainly, 0:20:00.280 --> 0:20:03.840 I hope it wasn't like that. I think, uh, they 0:20:03.920 --> 0:20:06.959 were were we were kind of just you know, doing it. 0:20:07.000 --> 0:20:10.639 I was I was writing the songs and you know, 0:20:10.760 --> 0:20:12.720 had had the ideas and was like, all right, let's 0:20:12.720 --> 0:20:15.879 try this, let's try this. And it didn't feel like 0:20:15.960 --> 0:20:20.879 there was I don't remember there being like they're they 0:20:20.880 --> 0:20:24.720 were I think from what I recall, Uh, they were 0:20:24.760 --> 0:20:27.359 just down down to go for the ride, you know, 0:20:27.400 --> 0:20:31.480 and and you know they weren't they weren't writing songs. 0:20:31.680 --> 0:20:34.639 It was either so it was kind of like a 0:20:35.800 --> 0:20:37.520 all right, yeah, here's this is the song, let's do 0:20:37.600 --> 0:20:41.000 it wasn't really didn't. I don't know. I think we 0:20:41.000 --> 0:20:42.760 were too young for it to be any kind of 0:20:43.040 --> 0:20:43.719 ego battles. 0:20:43.720 --> 0:20:54.760 I feel like, okay, so you finished the fifteen song, 0:20:54.800 --> 0:20:58.639 should make the CD. I assume you just burned the 0:20:58.680 --> 0:21:00.560 CDs on your own burner. 0:21:00.800 --> 0:21:03.199 Yeah, that the core trail track had it had like 0:21:03.240 --> 0:21:04.760 a CD you could you could bounce it down to 0:21:04.800 --> 0:21:06.399 a CD right on the thing and then just go 0:21:06.480 --> 0:21:07.520 make copies in the computer. 0:21:07.920 --> 0:21:11.800 Okay, so how many did you sell it? At? What price? 0:21:13.960 --> 0:21:16.600 I think I don't remember what we were selling for, 0:21:16.680 --> 0:21:21.159 maybe like ten bucks, but I think we made like 0:21:21.200 --> 0:21:24.920 somewhere between five hundred and seven hundred bucks something like that. 0:21:25.480 --> 0:21:27.560 It got a little it got a little conflated because 0:21:27.640 --> 0:21:31.600 the other two guys also crocheteded winter beanie hats, so 0:21:31.640 --> 0:21:36.920 we were selling those two. So you know that they 0:21:36.920 --> 0:21:39.760 were you know when we when when we weren't practicing 0:21:39.800 --> 0:21:42.080 and stuff. They were just crocheting hats and they had 0:21:42.080 --> 0:21:45.920 a little hat business called head Bandits. So we were 0:21:45.960 --> 0:21:48.560 we were kind of little little entrepreneurs, I guess, running around. 0:21:48.560 --> 0:21:51.160 But yeah, I think the album we made five hundred 0:21:51.160 --> 0:21:53.280 and seven hundred bucks something like that, which was pretty 0:21:53.320 --> 0:21:55.359 solid enough to buy like a new base amp. 0:21:55.680 --> 0:21:59.240 Oh yeah, absolutely, really solid. You know, you got a 0:21:59.280 --> 0:22:02.240 couple of friends give you ten dollars, but how did 0:22:02.320 --> 0:22:05.360 you convince the other seventy odd people to get it ten? 0:22:05.840 --> 0:22:08.360 I think people were being nice, like teachers were buying them, 0:22:08.400 --> 0:22:13.280 and you know, people were people were being nice. But 0:22:13.359 --> 0:22:14.960 I guess it was a lot of kids at school. 0:22:14.960 --> 0:22:17.000 I don't know, I don't I don't totally remember. There 0:22:17.240 --> 0:22:19.639 there are some friends who are helping us help like 0:22:19.720 --> 0:22:21.639 helping us burn them and like helping us sell them 0:22:21.680 --> 0:22:25.080 and stuff. It was, you know, it's, uh, it's like 0:22:25.320 --> 0:22:27.119 one of those things when you're when you're young. You know, 0:22:27.200 --> 0:22:29.640 you got a little a little pack and everyone's kind 0:22:29.640 --> 0:22:31.719 of like getting in on the like we're doing it 0:22:31.800 --> 0:22:32.960 kind of energy. You know. 0:22:34.400 --> 0:22:37.320 Well where people buying it, listening to it, they say, 0:22:37.359 --> 0:22:39.399 oh I want to hear you play such and such. 0:22:40.160 --> 0:22:42.320 I don't know. I don't know. I mean I listened 0:22:42.359 --> 0:22:45.400 back to it, and there's there's a lot of creative 0:22:45.400 --> 0:22:48.000 freedom there. This is my own perspective. I guess there's 0:22:48.040 --> 0:22:49.800 there's a lot of freedom in it and in the 0:22:49.840 --> 0:22:52.080 songs and stuff, and a lot of decisions that were 0:22:52.119 --> 0:22:55.800 made that I would never make now because they were 0:22:55.800 --> 0:22:59.240 coming from a place of having no no like theoretical 0:22:59.359 --> 0:23:03.800 understanding of of music and you know what, how like 0:23:03.920 --> 0:23:06.200 what kind of chord progressions are normal and things like that, 0:23:06.240 --> 0:23:09.560 which ended up making way more interesting choices, you know, 0:23:10.320 --> 0:23:12.840 because it's it was just kind of throwing things at 0:23:12.880 --> 0:23:17.200 the wall and chasing your ear and wound up being 0:23:17.359 --> 0:23:22.040 some some things that just you know are just very 0:23:22.680 --> 0:23:27.439 like kind of like wild card, wild card choices. But 0:23:27.720 --> 0:23:30.399 the vocals, like I said, were just like brutal. So 0:23:30.960 --> 0:23:32.399 I don't know if people listen to it or not. 0:23:34.640 --> 0:23:36.359 Can So how did you go? 0:23:36.480 --> 0:23:39.000 You know, you had stage fright, but how did your 0:23:39.000 --> 0:23:40.879 performance of the talent show go over? 0:23:43.680 --> 0:23:47.159 You know, I don't really know, Uh, I don't really know. 0:23:47.200 --> 0:23:49.680 I think there was there was something to be said 0:23:49.760 --> 0:23:53.760 for the just the fact that we were right that 0:23:54.200 --> 0:23:55.639 a bunch of songs were being written. It was like 0:23:55.880 --> 0:23:58.320 it was like there was like a body of original music, 0:23:59.640 --> 0:24:01.399 So I guess there was. There was like that. I 0:24:01.400 --> 0:24:06.240 remember that energy being kind of a thing, you know 0:24:06.240 --> 0:24:09.760 because like the other other bands were probably better than us, 0:24:09.840 --> 0:24:12.959 and you know, in the grade or whatever, but they 0:24:12.960 --> 0:24:15.320 were playing covers, but like they're saying way better and 0:24:15.320 --> 0:24:17.480 they're they're probably tighter and they played better or whatever 0:24:17.480 --> 0:24:21.119 it was, but you know, they're they're being just a 0:24:22.200 --> 0:24:25.440 lot of ideas, a lot of original songs happening. Uh 0:24:25.840 --> 0:24:27.400 felt like an energy, But I don't I don't think. 0:24:27.520 --> 0:24:29.879 I don't know if we were good or not, or 0:24:30.000 --> 0:24:31.919 if people thought we were good. I have no idea. 0:24:32.080 --> 0:24:35.040 Okay, so you had a band, you were selling CDs, 0:24:35.080 --> 0:24:38.360 you talk about these cover bands. How many bands were 0:24:38.400 --> 0:24:40.280 in the school? I mean, was this this thing where 0:24:40.320 --> 0:24:44.080 you were one of ten or one of two. 0:24:43.840 --> 0:24:46.240 Like maybe one of four, one of four or five 0:24:46.520 --> 0:24:49.640 something like that. There's like some rockers, you know, some 0:24:49.680 --> 0:24:53.760 hard some hard metal kind of guys, and then uh, 0:24:53.960 --> 0:24:57.000 you know some it was like another classic rock kind 0:24:57.000 --> 0:24:59.200 of outfit and things like that. 0:24:59.480 --> 0:25:03.000 Okay, little school, Ine go to high school. Then what happens. 0:25:05.880 --> 0:25:08.320 The first year of high school. It was kind of 0:25:08.600 --> 0:25:10.280 it was kind of like back to what I was 0:25:10.280 --> 0:25:13.320 saying before, I was didn't really have a crew anymore. 0:25:13.359 --> 0:25:14.840 It was it was it was like low men on 0:25:14.880 --> 0:25:18.119 the Totem Pole I had. I had a girlfriend, and 0:25:18.160 --> 0:25:23.160 I had like a really serious relationship, Like we spent 0:25:23.320 --> 0:25:25.760 a lot of time together and we went in really 0:25:25.800 --> 0:25:29.679 deep for for how young we were. And so I 0:25:29.720 --> 0:25:31.639 spent a lot of time doing that and kind of 0:25:31.840 --> 0:25:34.920 didn't hang out with friends that much at all, and 0:25:35.520 --> 0:25:38.399 was writing and recording a lot. But more so, the 0:25:38.440 --> 0:25:42.080 band wasn't really playing anymore. I think the drummer just 0:25:42.080 --> 0:25:43.760 didn't want to do it anymore. He stopped paying drums. 0:25:43.840 --> 0:25:46.720 He was like he was actually amazing skier. He was 0:25:46.800 --> 0:25:48.800 kind of pursuing that more and just wasn't interested in 0:25:48.800 --> 0:25:50.840 playing drums anymore. So we kind of stopped doing the 0:25:50.840 --> 0:25:53.800 band thing. But I continued to record a lot of 0:25:53.880 --> 0:25:56.480 music and I kept I was writing more than ever 0:25:57.080 --> 0:26:00.359 my first year of high school, and I had another 0:26:00.400 --> 0:26:02.919 buddy who played drums and keys, and he would come 0:26:02.920 --> 0:26:05.119 over and we would record stuff together. He'd play drums 0:26:05.200 --> 0:26:08.320 and keys, I'd played guitar bass and sing something on it, 0:26:08.359 --> 0:26:11.000 and so I was doing a lot of that, and 0:26:11.040 --> 0:26:14.359 then the summer summer after first year of high school, 0:26:14.400 --> 0:26:16.560 I started smoking weed and I got really into that, 0:26:18.160 --> 0:26:22.160 really really into that, and the it kind of propelled 0:26:22.200 --> 0:26:24.960 it was it was a major turning point in the 0:26:25.080 --> 0:26:30.080 journey because I got deeper and deeper into that was 0:26:30.119 --> 0:26:33.320 that was, you know, strangely when I really started studying music, 0:26:33.400 --> 0:26:39.199 starting studying theory and improvisational music in particular, but I 0:26:39.240 --> 0:26:43.240 stopped writing. I think, what is something about the way 0:26:43.320 --> 0:26:46.600 that impacted my brain and how things were, you know, 0:26:46.680 --> 0:26:48.840 there was there was still a lot of momentum and 0:26:48.880 --> 0:26:53.080 forward movement in from a musical standpoint, but the writing 0:26:53.320 --> 0:26:56.359 like halted in its tracks pretty much, which is you know, 0:26:56.600 --> 0:27:00.600 somewhat of a regret looking back kind of, you know, 0:27:00.600 --> 0:27:02.440 I can't help but be curious what would have happened 0:27:02.480 --> 0:27:05.520 if I had stayed on the trajectory it was on 0:27:05.960 --> 0:27:09.159 prior to that. But you know, nevertheless, I had a 0:27:09.200 --> 0:27:11.280 great time in high school for the most part. You know, 0:27:11.280 --> 0:27:13.480 it was those early years I was pretty sensitive and 0:27:14.320 --> 0:27:17.359 emotional and you know whatever. But as as the years 0:27:17.400 --> 0:27:20.800 went on, it was, you know, I had a lot 0:27:20.800 --> 0:27:23.840 of fun. You know, in high school it was kind 0:27:23.880 --> 0:27:26.359 of it was kind of like, you know, all you 0:27:26.400 --> 0:27:28.840 could ask for, and you know, I didn't realize it. 0:27:28.920 --> 0:27:30.199 I mean we was just having a great time at 0:27:30.240 --> 0:27:33.440 the time going through things. You know, I had anxiety 0:27:33.440 --> 0:27:35.880 and stuff too, but I guess it was mostly relative 0:27:35.920 --> 0:27:39.359 to my perspective post high school that I that was. 0:27:39.400 --> 0:27:42.119 That was when I really realized how great of a 0:27:42.160 --> 0:27:47.000 time it was in so many respects. But yeah, it 0:27:47.119 --> 0:27:50.159 was you know, studying the like with the guitar teacher, 0:27:50.160 --> 0:27:52.080 he was pushing jazz more and I was studying that, 0:27:52.160 --> 0:27:55.399 and that was kind of the time I got into 0:27:56.160 --> 0:27:59.200 you know, the Dead and Fish and things of that. 0:27:59.520 --> 0:28:01.639 You know, different types of jam bands. I'm Friese McGee 0:28:01.680 --> 0:28:04.320 and MO and all these all these different bands and 0:28:05.480 --> 0:28:08.679 learning that stuff. Getting into that world. Uh, playing along 0:28:08.720 --> 0:28:11.960 with those bands was kind of the moments where it 0:28:12.040 --> 0:28:13.520 was just like a release. It was just so much 0:28:13.560 --> 0:28:16.560 fun and it was kind of like I'd spend time 0:28:16.640 --> 0:28:19.960 studying jazz and trying to decode that language and then 0:28:20.240 --> 0:28:23.560 let my hair down and play along with with, you know, 0:28:23.640 --> 0:28:27.680 the jam bands in my room after school kind of thing. 0:28:29.720 --> 0:28:32.560 So what happened with the girlfriend? How long did that last? 0:28:32.600 --> 0:28:34.680 How did you meet her and how did it end? 0:28:37.480 --> 0:28:41.240 We we were in school together and my sister actually 0:28:41.360 --> 0:28:46.840 started babysitting for them. There was a yeah, we were 0:28:46.920 --> 0:28:49.479 kind of just in the same in same community, and 0:28:50.000 --> 0:28:51.400 I just had a huge crush on her. And then 0:28:51.440 --> 0:28:54.880 we started spending a bunch of time together and you know, 0:28:55.240 --> 0:29:01.320 went went full like young love mode. And then I 0:29:01.320 --> 0:29:05.760 don't know, you know, when that summer after freshman year 0:29:05.760 --> 0:29:08.400 of high school, I started smoking a bunch of weed 0:29:08.440 --> 0:29:11.560 and we kind of just, I don't know, it's like 0:29:11.800 --> 0:29:14.160 we just we kind of went separate ways in a way, 0:29:15.400 --> 0:29:19.400 and uh, you know, it's tough to remember how those 0:29:19.440 --> 0:29:26.080 things unfold, but you know, they's like when you go 0:29:26.280 --> 0:29:29.280 that that deep as a young kid, you have like 0:29:29.320 --> 0:29:32.000 no idea, you have no idea what like what you're doing, 0:29:32.040 --> 0:29:34.760 and you just kind of like the fall, you know, 0:29:35.040 --> 0:29:37.200 neck deep into the young love thing and it's just 0:29:37.280 --> 0:29:40.920 it's like consuming and then the there's there's you know, 0:29:41.000 --> 0:29:44.160 strange things that come out of it when you don't 0:29:44.160 --> 0:29:47.200 have balance. I guess that maybe that's that's part of 0:29:47.200 --> 0:29:52.000 the thing, is I don't, you know, struggle with balance 0:29:52.400 --> 0:29:58.000 when when there's something I'm you know, really uh drawn to. 0:29:58.200 --> 0:30:04.520 I guess you know it's like, oh, make the analogy 0:30:04.520 --> 0:30:06.960 of like getting getting a bag of Dorito's and dumping 0:30:06.960 --> 0:30:08.840 out the entire bag of Dorito's on your lap. It's 0:30:08.840 --> 0:30:11.320 a weird analogy, but that's that's kind of how we've 0:30:11.360 --> 0:30:14.200 come to refer to that that type of energy instead 0:30:14.240 --> 0:30:18.120 of you know, the lack of being able to pace 0:30:18.160 --> 0:30:22.760 yourself or or maintain some kind of balance in the 0:30:22.800 --> 0:30:27.520 context of entering into or being drawn, you know, engaging 0:30:27.560 --> 0:30:30.080 with something that you're drawn to in in an intense way. 0:30:31.200 --> 0:30:34.080 It could be you know, analogy. You know, it's it's 0:30:34.080 --> 0:30:38.520 presented itself in all types of different situations. Relationships, a band, 0:30:40.080 --> 0:30:41.200 you know anything. 0:30:41.640 --> 0:30:45.520 Okay, you're the type of guy who always has a girlfriend. 0:30:45.600 --> 0:30:48.000 You had a girlfriend who were a freshman. You have 0:30:48.040 --> 0:30:50.560 a girlfriend when you were sophomore junior? How did that 0:30:50.600 --> 0:30:51.080 play out? 0:30:52.480 --> 0:30:55.640 No? No, I was I was way too uh stoned 0:30:55.640 --> 0:30:59.280 and shy to talk to girls for at least for 0:30:59.280 --> 0:31:01.479 the next couple of years I had. I ended up 0:31:01.600 --> 0:31:03.920 having another girlfriend, and like when I was a senior, 0:31:04.280 --> 0:31:06.200 but for the bulk of high school, I was I 0:31:06.240 --> 0:31:09.440 was too stoned and shy talk to girls. 0:31:09.960 --> 0:31:11.440 And who turned you on to dope. 0:31:14.600 --> 0:31:16.720 I don't know e every you know, everyone was kind 0:31:16.720 --> 0:31:23.760 of doing it, and I just it, uh it it 0:31:23.880 --> 0:31:27.000 fired up like the you know, learning music, playing music, 0:31:27.040 --> 0:31:32.600 listening to music on on weed. It was just I was, 0:31:32.640 --> 0:31:34.640 I was. I was just taken with it, you know, 0:31:36.440 --> 0:31:37.760 but yeah, it was it was just around. It was 0:31:37.840 --> 0:31:40.680 kind of as part of the culture where where we were, 0:31:40.720 --> 0:31:42.560 as I imagine it was in most places. 0:31:43.320 --> 0:31:46.479 And this was something your parents were aware of, unaware of, 0:31:46.600 --> 0:31:48.160 cool with, not cool with. 0:31:50.440 --> 0:31:54.600 They're they're pretty sharp, they're pretty aware. And at first 0:31:54.640 --> 0:31:58.200 they were, you know, my mom was mortified, but then 0:31:58.440 --> 0:32:02.480 as time went on, they you know, my house ended 0:32:02.560 --> 0:32:05.280 up being the house that everyone would convene at. Like 0:32:05.320 --> 0:32:08.360 we hung out at my house the most. You know, 0:32:08.360 --> 0:32:10.560 if there was a party going around going on somewhere 0:32:10.800 --> 0:32:13.600 in town, we we'd go there. But if there wasn't, we'd, 0:32:13.880 --> 0:32:16.000 like the default thing was was hanging out of my house. 0:32:16.600 --> 0:32:20.840 And you know, they they allowed. It wasn't like a 0:32:20.960 --> 0:32:23.480 like a weird thing. You know, sometimes it gets kind 0:32:23.480 --> 0:32:27.000 of weird when that's when that's the vibe. But they 0:32:27.360 --> 0:32:29.480 knew what we were doing and they were cool with 0:32:29.520 --> 0:32:31.880 it as long as everyone was making good decisions and 0:32:31.960 --> 0:32:35.400 there I think their philosophy was like, we'd rather them 0:32:35.480 --> 0:32:40.320 here safe and uh learning how to make good decisions 0:32:40.320 --> 0:32:44.160 while partying. Then you know this it being this this 0:32:44.240 --> 0:32:47.760 crazy forbidden thing and then making making much worse mistakes. 0:32:47.800 --> 0:32:50.000 You know, so we're in this story. Do you go 0:32:50.080 --> 0:32:53.719 to the Brookley summer program? Uh? 0:32:54.040 --> 0:32:57.680 You know, I don't remember what when that started. That 0:32:57.760 --> 0:32:59.880 might I might have gone to the first one, like 0:33:00.080 --> 0:33:02.600 at the freshman year after high school, or it could 0:33:02.600 --> 0:33:05.920 have been after sophomore year. I'm not sure, but I 0:33:05.920 --> 0:33:08.320 think I think one summer I did the guitar It 0:33:08.400 --> 0:33:10.320 was just a week I did the guitar thing. There 0:33:10.360 --> 0:33:13.680 was another a guitar uh program, like a one week 0:33:13.720 --> 0:33:17.440 guitar camp kind of thing I did maybe uh maybe 0:33:17.440 --> 0:33:20.000 a year prior. So I think it was like one 0:33:20.000 --> 0:33:22.240 summer I did this one guitar camp somewhere in Connecticut, 0:33:22.280 --> 0:33:24.400 and then I did a one week thing at Berkeley. 0:33:24.440 --> 0:33:26.400 And then I think the following summer, I just I 0:33:26.440 --> 0:33:30.200 was getting more and more serious and and uh about it, 0:33:30.240 --> 0:33:34.120 and I did the five week program. Uh the following summer, 0:33:34.160 --> 0:33:39.160 I think, and yeah, I was you know, I I 0:33:39.240 --> 0:33:42.760 was very very lucky that my parents were able to 0:33:43.000 --> 0:33:47.400 and willing to set me up in those programs and 0:33:47.400 --> 0:33:51.120 and you know, that's like, that's the privilege I was. 0:33:51.000 --> 0:33:53.160 It was, it was, it was privileged to be able 0:33:53.160 --> 0:33:54.400 to learn music at that age. 0:33:54.480 --> 0:33:58.760 You know, Okay, you went on the five week programs? 0:33:59.080 --> 0:34:02.640 What was that like? Were the students competitive? Were they 0:34:02.840 --> 0:34:05.959 is good or better? Was it kind of like summer 0:34:06.040 --> 0:34:08.160 camp where music was a part of it, but a 0:34:08.160 --> 0:34:10.640 lot of it was living in the dorm hanging out. 0:34:10.719 --> 0:34:12.160 What was the experience like. 0:34:13.360 --> 0:34:15.520 The five week I mean, because the one week guitar 0:34:15.719 --> 0:34:21.919 camp things were, those were I had a good time 0:34:21.920 --> 0:34:26.160 at those. Those those kind of just they didn't. The 0:34:26.160 --> 0:34:28.759 five week was was tough. I remember that being a 0:34:28.800 --> 0:34:34.000 turning point. It wasn't as much of a communal kind of, hey, 0:34:34.000 --> 0:34:36.040 everyone's here to learn how to jam kind of thing 0:34:36.080 --> 0:34:40.719 it was. It was it was more intense. It was 0:34:40.760 --> 0:34:43.640 more like college. Honestly, you know, you set up in 0:34:43.640 --> 0:34:48.920 a dorm and the people doing that program were just 0:34:48.960 --> 0:34:52.080 way more serious and the vast majority of them were 0:34:52.120 --> 0:34:54.880 way better than me. And that was I think my 0:34:55.000 --> 0:34:58.480 first brush. I remember very vividly having a conversation with 0:34:58.520 --> 0:35:01.200 my with my dad out in the street one night, 0:35:01.520 --> 0:35:03.640 maybe halfway through that thing where I was, I was 0:35:03.719 --> 0:35:07.879 kind of homesick and like just getting my ass kicked. 0:35:07.880 --> 0:35:11.879 It was it was the I mean, the talent there, 0:35:12.000 --> 0:35:14.879 the talent pool. It was the classic thing of like, 0:35:14.960 --> 0:35:17.919 you know, I was very comfortable. I wouldn't. I wasn't. 0:35:17.920 --> 0:35:19.840 I wasn't even a big fish in my little pond. 0:35:19.880 --> 0:35:20.040 You know. 0:35:20.080 --> 0:35:22.799 It wasn't even like that. It wasn't I wasn't good 0:35:22.920 --> 0:35:26.359 enough to even have that be the vibe. But I 0:35:26.440 --> 0:35:27.960 was comfortable in my little pond. 0:35:28.000 --> 0:35:28.160 You know. 0:35:28.400 --> 0:35:32.319 I had my own connection, my own experience with it 0:35:32.480 --> 0:35:34.399 in my own little pond. And then I went there 0:35:34.400 --> 0:35:37.520 and it was the first time I had the experience 0:35:37.520 --> 0:35:42.920 of being totally decalibrated from that and kind of lost 0:35:42.960 --> 0:35:46.440 in the soup of all these immensely talented but really 0:35:46.440 --> 0:35:54.080 really competitive energies, you know. So yeah, I remember my 0:35:54.160 --> 0:35:58.640 dad kind of My dad had an amazing ability to 0:35:58.640 --> 0:36:01.440 to help people talk to talk to people and see 0:36:01.520 --> 0:36:04.839 where they're at, and uh just like say the right thing. 0:36:04.920 --> 0:36:09.719 He always knew how to how to do that, and uh, yeah, 0:36:09.760 --> 0:36:11.680 I remember that night. That was so the five week 0:36:11.719 --> 0:36:15.080 thing definitely stands out as a point of my first 0:36:15.080 --> 0:36:18.319 brush with with that environment of losing feeling like I 0:36:18.360 --> 0:36:22.160 was losing my own connection to music and why I 0:36:22.200 --> 0:36:22.480 do it. 0:36:22.840 --> 0:36:28.640 Okay, you're in high school, you're smoking dough, you're playing 0:36:28.640 --> 0:36:31.120 along to record, you stop writing songs. At what point 0:36:31.160 --> 0:36:33.480 do you start having bands again in high school? 0:36:36.040 --> 0:36:38.160 So throughout Yeah, there was like different things that happened 0:36:38.160 --> 0:36:43.960 throughout high school. You know, I the guitar teachers started 0:36:43.960 --> 0:36:45.759 setting me up with some some other kids who were 0:36:45.760 --> 0:36:47.520 playing jazz, so I was kind of starting to play 0:36:47.520 --> 0:36:50.319 with them a little bit. There was another project that 0:36:50.360 --> 0:36:54.440 I played in. These these two guys were writing this 0:36:54.640 --> 0:36:57.319 a bunch of they were really into dream theater and 0:36:57.360 --> 0:37:01.080 they were writing this. One was like a classical trained uh, 0:37:01.520 --> 0:37:04.800 piano player, pianist, and uh the other one was the drummer, 0:37:04.880 --> 0:37:07.200 the same guy I was. I was kind of recording 0:37:07.239 --> 0:37:11.120 songs with in uh, you know, earlier in high school, 0:37:11.480 --> 0:37:15.719 and they were they were super into like progressive I 0:37:15.719 --> 0:37:18.799 don't know, metal, progressive metal, hard rock, kind of kind 0:37:18.800 --> 0:37:21.360 of dream theater kind of stuff. So they were writing 0:37:21.400 --> 0:37:25.759 writing stuff like that, and Uh, I I was, you know, 0:37:25.800 --> 0:37:28.400 I was in a band with them, and uh, we 0:37:28.440 --> 0:37:31.040 would we were playing Teen Centers a bunch and and 0:37:31.080 --> 0:37:34.279 doing that that kind of thing, and it was nice. 0:37:34.360 --> 0:37:37.040 You know, I had had like a creative I had 0:37:37.080 --> 0:37:38.920 creative input, I had a voice in that band. But 0:37:38.960 --> 0:37:42.760 that was also, you know, one of the first early 0:37:42.920 --> 0:37:48.480 experiences I had of being not the not the driving 0:37:48.560 --> 0:37:51.560 force behind a project or you know, not like the 0:37:51.600 --> 0:37:54.320 main main writer or something like that in a project, 0:37:54.360 --> 0:37:57.080 just kind of like would come in and have ideas, 0:37:57.120 --> 0:38:01.799 but mostly was the guitar player, you know. And it was, uh, 0:38:02.239 --> 0:38:04.200 it was a great experience. We we learned a lot 0:38:04.239 --> 0:38:06.759 together and and uh had a lot of fun like 0:38:07.000 --> 0:38:10.120 playing playing these uh these teen Centers. It was a 0:38:10.200 --> 0:38:13.719 very different scene than the people that I was, the 0:38:13.760 --> 0:38:15.680 friends that I had, and the you know, the parties 0:38:15.680 --> 0:38:17.120 I was going to and stuff like that. It was 0:38:17.440 --> 0:38:22.200 it was a very different, very different world. And uh, 0:38:22.239 --> 0:38:24.960 you know, I'd often like we'd have these gigs on 0:38:25.000 --> 0:38:26.920 the weekend at teen Centers and there'd be like a 0:38:26.960 --> 0:38:28.960 party that everyone else, all my friends were going to, 0:38:29.000 --> 0:38:30.200 and I'd try to get some of them to come 0:38:30.280 --> 0:38:32.200 to the Team Center with me, and They're like, nah, 0:38:32.520 --> 0:38:34.759 we're gonna go to the party. I was like, all right, 0:38:34.960 --> 0:38:36.560 so I'd go, I'd hang out with them for a 0:38:36.560 --> 0:38:38.160 few hours and then roll into the Teen Center and 0:38:38.200 --> 0:38:39.640 it was it was There was a lot of funny 0:38:39.640 --> 0:38:44.920 experiences there. But yeah, I mean the music was they 0:38:45.120 --> 0:38:48.399 The stuff they were writing kind of kind of kicked 0:38:48.400 --> 0:38:50.400 my ass and in some different ways too, you know, 0:38:50.440 --> 0:38:53.240 I was like dose they were it was like soloing 0:38:53.520 --> 0:38:56.200 over some chord progression in fifteen and stuff like like 0:38:56.280 --> 0:38:58.200 learning that was you know, they were pushing me to 0:38:58.200 --> 0:39:01.080 do stuff like that, which was which was really cool 0:39:01.080 --> 0:39:02.640 at that age. At the same time I was learning, 0:39:03.080 --> 0:39:05.880 I was just learning a lot about music and studying, 0:39:06.000 --> 0:39:09.160 studying jazz and stuff like that, and this they were nerd. 0:39:09.200 --> 0:39:12.880 They were like kind of the nerdy metal guys, doing 0:39:13.360 --> 0:39:16.400 weird number stuff, a lot of a lot of strange, 0:39:16.400 --> 0:39:19.480 odd time stuff, and that was that was a that 0:39:19.560 --> 0:39:22.239 was a really good learning experience in that way. 0:39:31.320 --> 0:39:33.200 So you graduate from high school, then what. 0:39:35.480 --> 0:39:39.280 Uh, graduate from high school and I got into Berkeley. 0:39:39.280 --> 0:39:43.680 So I went to Berkeley. But yeah, yeah, so I 0:39:43.880 --> 0:39:46.600 started Berkeley pretty much, you know, right after right after 0:39:46.640 --> 0:39:47.120 high school. 0:39:47.400 --> 0:39:50.799 And how long did that last? I did? 0:39:50.960 --> 0:39:56.040 Uh? I think I did three years and then a band, 0:39:56.840 --> 0:39:59.360 a band came together. Uh, there was there was a 0:39:59.400 --> 0:40:02.440 guy throughout the college years, there was a guy that 0:40:02.520 --> 0:40:06.839 I knew about. He was older, you know, like I said, 0:40:06.840 --> 0:40:08.839 it's kind of small town. You you kind of know 0:40:09.360 --> 0:40:12.880 all the people who are doing it older than you 0:40:14.040 --> 0:40:17.040 and your your contemporaries. And I had known about him 0:40:17.080 --> 0:40:18.800 from playing into different bands that he was in, and 0:40:19.080 --> 0:40:21.480 also just people he was. He wrote a lot of 0:40:21.520 --> 0:40:25.439 songs throughout high school and in college and stuff. And 0:40:26.280 --> 0:40:28.960 you know, some friends of mine knew about and like 0:40:28.960 --> 0:40:32.120 would send me recordings of songs he wrote or different 0:40:32.160 --> 0:40:34.360 things like that. I was, I was readily aware. And 0:40:34.400 --> 0:40:38.520 then I think it was the summer. It was either 0:40:38.600 --> 0:40:40.439 the summer going into my last year of high school 0:40:40.480 --> 0:40:43.640 or the summer after my last year of high school. 0:40:45.440 --> 0:40:49.240 Ran into him at a party which was coincidentally at 0:40:49.800 --> 0:40:53.000 Trevor's house, the bass player for Goose. Now, there was 0:40:53.000 --> 0:40:56.239 a party at Trevor's house and this guy's his name's 0:40:56.280 --> 0:41:00.560 Matt Campbell. And he rolled into this party and and uh, 0:41:00.719 --> 0:41:02.719 I was, you know, I was pretty lit up. I was. 0:41:02.760 --> 0:41:04.040 I was kind of a remote and I saw him. 0:41:04.040 --> 0:41:06.160 I was like, you, like, I know you. I know, 0:41:06.280 --> 0:41:09.560 you, you know, play and write and stuff like where's where's 0:41:09.600 --> 0:41:11.800 your where's your gear? Let's get your gear, Let's play 0:41:11.880 --> 0:41:15.799 right now. So he his parents' house was down the road, 0:41:15.840 --> 0:41:18.520 and we drove and got his gear and came back 0:41:18.520 --> 0:41:20.240 and that was the first time that we'd really connected 0:41:20.239 --> 0:41:23.440 and really hung out. I don't really remember playing that night, 0:41:23.480 --> 0:41:25.200 but I do remember the next day he came back 0:41:25.239 --> 0:41:27.080 to get his gear and we played that afternoon, and 0:41:27.120 --> 0:41:30.279 that was that was really the first time, like we 0:41:30.680 --> 0:41:32.680 really connected and played music together, and it was it 0:41:32.719 --> 0:41:36.000 was pretty impactful. So then throughout the years I was 0:41:36.000 --> 0:41:39.080 in college and stuff, he was in college. Uh he graduated, 0:41:39.280 --> 0:41:41.600 you know a year a few years prior to me. 0:41:42.239 --> 0:41:44.480 Every summer we kind of would link up one way 0:41:44.520 --> 0:41:47.480 or another and play, play gig or something or you know, 0:41:47.560 --> 0:41:52.319 different little projects whatever it was. And then, uh, there 0:41:52.400 --> 0:41:56.720 was this one summer after my second year of college, 0:41:56.719 --> 0:41:59.560 I want to say where I was like, all right, 0:41:59.600 --> 0:42:01.400 I just I gotta I gotta start, I gotta get 0:42:01.440 --> 0:42:03.319 a band together, I gotta start doing something. So I 0:42:03.520 --> 0:42:07.440 kind of went around and uh found a couple of 0:42:07.480 --> 0:42:10.040 random guys at school. Who are I mean, there's so 0:42:10.040 --> 0:42:12.640 many good players there was. It was insane, but I 0:42:12.640 --> 0:42:15.760 found a couple of guys and started just booking gigs 0:42:15.760 --> 0:42:19.600 at bars in Connecticut on the weekends this one summer 0:42:19.800 --> 0:42:21.840 and also just like throwing parties at my house and 0:42:22.080 --> 0:42:24.200 playing there. So we kind of got this little band 0:42:24.200 --> 0:42:27.400 together this one summer and it was a it was 0:42:27.400 --> 0:42:31.520 a really fun summer. And Matt had graduated from college 0:42:31.680 --> 0:42:34.920 and got an internship at Red Light and he was 0:42:34.960 --> 0:42:38.640 thinking about, you know, entering the music industry in that way, 0:42:39.719 --> 0:42:44.359 and he didn't. He didn't get too far in that. 0:42:44.440 --> 0:42:46.520 He was like, I don't. I don't think he was 0:42:46.520 --> 0:42:49.439 there very long before he realized that it wasn't for him, 0:42:49.880 --> 0:42:54.000 and he, you know, at that he had he'd been 0:42:54.040 --> 0:42:56.439 playing with us that summer. We had some like really 0:42:56.520 --> 0:42:59.279 great experiences the first time we started writing together. We 0:42:59.320 --> 0:43:02.840 wrote a couple of songs that summer that we still 0:43:03.000 --> 0:43:08.400 play now. And you know, it was like that fall 0:43:08.520 --> 0:43:11.000 that he was like, I'm not doing the red Light thing. 0:43:11.120 --> 0:43:15.200 Let's start a band, and I was like, Yeah, let's cool, 0:43:15.280 --> 0:43:17.879 let's do it. And so I think it was that 0:43:17.880 --> 0:43:20.839 that following, you know, the top of that next year, 0:43:21.320 --> 0:43:23.600 I dropped out of school and we just started working 0:43:25.400 --> 0:43:27.759 working on this band, and it was so that band 0:43:27.840 --> 0:43:29.719 ended up being like it lasting for a year and 0:43:29.719 --> 0:43:34.400 a half and it was extremely formative experience for all 0:43:34.400 --> 0:43:37.400 of us. It laid the groundwork for what what the 0:43:37.440 --> 0:43:41.040 band is now for sure, But it was also the 0:43:41.080 --> 0:43:44.640 timing was kind of kind of wild in terms of 0:43:45.600 --> 0:43:49.960 like universe karma type stuff. I got sick. I got 0:43:50.000 --> 0:43:52.080 really sick kind of right when that band was starting. 0:43:52.360 --> 0:43:55.000 Like I crashed like right before, right right around that time, 0:43:56.360 --> 0:43:59.480 and that had a pretty big impact on I mean 0:43:59.520 --> 0:44:03.359 everything for me, but the trajectory of that band for sure. 0:44:04.880 --> 0:44:07.200 So would your parents say when you dropped out of Berkeley? 0:44:08.800 --> 0:44:12.799 I was just my mom at that point, and I think, 0:44:13.680 --> 0:44:17.120 you know, my dad passed away when it was my 0:44:17.200 --> 0:44:20.520 first week of college. I was eighteen, So well. 0:44:20.480 --> 0:44:23.160 Let's stop there for a second. Had he been sick 0:44:23.280 --> 0:44:25.680 or what were the circumstances. 0:44:26.040 --> 0:44:31.480 Yeah, So when I was, yeah, my senior year of 0:44:31.560 --> 0:44:33.879 high school, like two thousand and two thousand and nine, 0:44:36.160 --> 0:44:39.440 my grandfather, who was my dad's dad, who I was 0:44:39.480 --> 0:44:42.120 really really close with growing up, died. And then a 0:44:42.120 --> 0:44:45.919 couple of months later, my uncle, who my mom's brother, 0:44:46.480 --> 0:44:49.440 who I was really really close with who had lived 0:44:49.480 --> 0:44:53.200 with us throughout when I was in high school. He 0:44:53.280 --> 0:44:54.400 kind of he kind of moved in. He was in 0:44:54.440 --> 0:44:56.480 a rough spot in his life and moved in with us, 0:44:56.880 --> 0:44:59.839 and we became really really close. He died a couple 0:45:00.000 --> 0:45:02.560 months after my grandfather, and then right after he died, 0:45:02.600 --> 0:45:08.040 my dad got sick cancer and he was sick for 0:45:08.120 --> 0:45:10.839 five or six months and then died in September of 0:45:10.880 --> 0:45:12.960 two thousand and nine. And that was like, it was 0:45:13.000 --> 0:45:16.080 like my uh, you know, first week of at Berkeley. 0:45:18.080 --> 0:45:20.240 God, you cope with that? How do you cope with that? Today? 0:45:22.440 --> 0:45:27.000 Still trying to figure it out? Honestly, it's uh. I 0:45:27.920 --> 0:45:29.880 after the first two it was like my first brush 0:45:29.960 --> 0:45:34.240 with death, and you know, I was, I was grieving, 0:45:34.360 --> 0:45:37.000 and it was it was strange. It was, you know, 0:45:37.000 --> 0:45:39.040 I was trying to learn how to make sense with 0:45:39.680 --> 0:45:42.719 sense of you know that these people that I was 0:45:42.840 --> 0:45:47.600 really close to in my you know, current consciousness in 0:45:47.640 --> 0:45:50.680 my life were no longer here, you know, it was 0:45:50.719 --> 0:45:54.800 it was it was just a very strange experience when 0:45:54.800 --> 0:45:57.359 my dad died. I I mean when he got sick, 0:45:57.400 --> 0:45:59.680 I was in denial. I was running from him. I 0:45:59.680 --> 0:46:01.160 was party a lot. I was having a really great 0:46:01.160 --> 0:46:05.320 time with my friends in school and everything and couldn't 0:46:05.360 --> 0:46:08.520 really show up to that at all. I wasn't conscious 0:46:08.560 --> 0:46:11.760 of it. But you know, in my you know, eighteen 0:46:11.880 --> 0:46:15.760 year old invincible, There's no way my like my dad's 0:46:15.920 --> 0:46:19.080 I'm invincible. My dad's definitely invincible. There's not no way 0:46:19.200 --> 0:46:21.600 nothing you know, bad would happen to him. He'll figure 0:46:21.600 --> 0:46:24.040 it out. He figures everything out. He just he was like, 0:46:24.120 --> 0:46:30.000 he was a really really special guy, and he loved 0:46:30.000 --> 0:46:32.720 me a lot, you know, kind of to a fault maybe, 0:46:32.760 --> 0:46:35.760 and and had a really like I like I said before, 0:46:35.880 --> 0:46:39.440 kind of had a pretty amazing ability to to see people, 0:46:39.640 --> 0:46:41.799 talk to people, say the right thing, do the right thing, 0:46:42.800 --> 0:46:44.560 and just had a lot of a lot of charisma 0:46:44.600 --> 0:46:48.520 and a lot of people were drawn to him and he, uh, 0:46:48.800 --> 0:46:52.200 you know, he solved a lot of my problems throughout 0:46:52.280 --> 0:46:55.880 the my my early life. You know, if something was 0:46:55.880 --> 0:46:57.600 was I was, there was something I was struggling with, 0:46:57.680 --> 0:47:00.759 you know, he would make it better, and it was 0:47:00.800 --> 0:47:05.320 coming out of love and stuff. But when when he died, 0:47:05.360 --> 0:47:09.200 it was I was not really prepared for it, and 0:47:09.440 --> 0:47:11.919 I could just shut down. I like went into full 0:47:12.320 --> 0:47:15.800 full shock. I don't really remember much, you know that 0:47:15.920 --> 0:47:18.839 my memory from like my first year of college was 0:47:18.960 --> 0:47:22.799 pretty shoddy, and uh yeah, I don't know. I just 0:47:22.920 --> 0:47:24.759 you know, all of a sudden had like really really 0:47:24.800 --> 0:47:27.680 bad anxiety issues. I was having panic attacks multiple times 0:47:27.719 --> 0:47:29.719 per week and a couple after a couple of years 0:47:29.760 --> 0:47:33.200 of that, my body just kind of shut down, you know, 0:47:34.680 --> 0:47:36.400 for a long for many years, was trying to figure 0:47:36.400 --> 0:47:38.400 out like what it was, what's the problem. It was 0:47:38.440 --> 0:47:41.480 like mono, you know, Epstein bar lime disease, kind of 0:47:41.560 --> 0:47:44.200 that kind of world. But no one, know, none of 0:47:44.239 --> 0:47:46.000 the doctors I was seeing could really put their finger 0:47:46.040 --> 0:47:49.719 on it. It was just, you know, one of those situations. 0:47:49.719 --> 0:47:52.120 So I've been on been on that journey ever since, honestly. 0:47:52.440 --> 0:47:53.719 So how did you get past that? 0:47:55.640 --> 0:48:01.799 The physicals thing? Yeah, you know, I've I've become ah, 0:48:03.120 --> 0:48:05.360 I haven't you know. There there's there were periods where 0:48:05.480 --> 0:48:08.919 it got a little better. You know, it was really 0:48:09.000 --> 0:48:12.279 rough for a while, and then there's there's a few 0:48:12.320 --> 0:48:14.719 things that I discovered that kind of moved the needle 0:48:14.760 --> 0:48:16.600 and got me to a place where I could go 0:48:16.680 --> 0:48:19.400 back to school, and and uh, you know, there's a 0:48:19.400 --> 0:48:21.399 wild where a while where I couldn't hold a job. 0:48:21.400 --> 0:48:22.920 I was you know, I couldn't get through like a shift. 0:48:22.920 --> 0:48:28.719 I just didn't have enough energy. But they, you know, 0:48:28.760 --> 0:48:31.840 I some there's a couple of things I discovered that 0:48:31.840 --> 0:48:34.080 that helped enough for me to go back to school 0:48:34.600 --> 0:48:36.719 and start the band and you know, kind of be 0:48:36.800 --> 0:48:41.120 getting by and then you know, it's there's it's it's 0:48:41.200 --> 0:48:43.799 up and down. You know, things if stress gets too 0:48:43.880 --> 0:48:47.560 high or you know, certain things change and things you 0:48:47.600 --> 0:48:50.279 can kind of like heads south again. But I've it's 0:48:50.360 --> 0:48:54.440 it's something that I've I've just never stopped trying to 0:48:54.560 --> 0:48:56.840 figure out and and learn about. 0:48:57.360 --> 0:48:59.440 So you say you discovered some things that helped you, 0:48:59.480 --> 0:49:00.760 what were those. 0:49:01.360 --> 0:49:04.640 At that time? It was I her Veda helped me 0:49:04.680 --> 0:49:06.799 a lot. Actually, I was living in Colorado at the time. 0:49:06.840 --> 0:49:09.879 It was like kind of right when right around the time, 0:49:09.960 --> 0:49:13.120 right before maybe this band started. We started playing bars 0:49:13.160 --> 0:49:18.160 and stuff in Connecticut, but I, you know, I'd moved 0:49:18.200 --> 0:49:22.640 to Fort Collins, Colorado with the girls. So the band 0:49:22.680 --> 0:49:24.760 I was talking about before that, I started with Matt. 0:49:25.920 --> 0:49:28.359 You know that we went our separate ways. That that 0:49:28.400 --> 0:49:33.759 band dissolved, and shortly after that I started seeing I 0:49:33.760 --> 0:49:35.400 started seeing this girl and she was moving out to 0:49:35.440 --> 0:49:39.080 Colorado to go study massage therapy, and I had nothing 0:49:39.120 --> 0:49:41.120 going on. I didn't know what I was doing with 0:49:41.200 --> 0:49:43.439 my life. I was kind of down and out, pretty sick, 0:49:44.160 --> 0:49:46.160 had dropped out of school to do this band band 0:49:46.200 --> 0:49:49.400 fell through, had put all my eggs in that basket, 0:49:49.520 --> 0:49:52.040 and I really didn't know what to do with myself 0:49:52.120 --> 0:49:54.640 after that point. And she was moving out there, and 0:49:54.640 --> 0:49:57.040 I was like, is it cool if I come, you know? 0:49:57.360 --> 0:49:59.920 So I went and moved out there, and it was 0:50:00.080 --> 0:50:01.879 kind of the thing I needed. I needed to get 0:50:01.880 --> 0:50:05.560 out of my home here and gain some new perspective 0:50:05.880 --> 0:50:11.799 on on on everything, I guess. And while I was 0:50:11.800 --> 0:50:13.879 out there, I was walking around Fort Collins one day 0:50:14.120 --> 0:50:19.480 and there were these uh Hark Harry Krishna guys playing 0:50:19.840 --> 0:50:23.160 playing music, chanting, singing with a little circle in in 0:50:23.200 --> 0:50:27.120 the downtown area there. They were, you know, based in Denver. 0:50:27.400 --> 0:50:29.600 They were they were like, they were young, young people 0:50:30.440 --> 0:50:32.920 and most of them had went to you know, went 0:50:32.920 --> 0:50:36.839 to jazz school coincidentally and and then got into got 0:50:36.840 --> 0:50:39.520 into that thing. So they were they were like good musicians. 0:50:40.480 --> 0:50:43.440 This guy, this guy was playing the murdanga a drum 0:50:43.440 --> 0:50:44.799 and he was really good. And then there's another guy 0:50:44.840 --> 0:50:47.800 playing the harmonium and had had this beautiful voice, and 0:50:47.880 --> 0:50:49.520 so I kind of became friends with them. They they 0:50:49.520 --> 0:50:52.759 came up before Collins once a week and I would 0:50:52.760 --> 0:50:55.200 just go to the go to the gatherings and you know, 0:50:55.600 --> 0:50:59.839 they you would sing, chant, meditate, eat, they'd bring food, 0:50:59.880 --> 0:51:03.399 you food for free, and there was just discussions about 0:51:03.400 --> 0:51:07.600 spirituality and different things like that, and and uh, it 0:51:07.680 --> 0:51:10.799 was awesome, you know, we I got really into it, 0:51:11.000 --> 0:51:13.719 just just that that experience hanging out with them and 0:51:14.239 --> 0:51:20.319 learning all these wild stories about you know, Vedic like that, 0:51:20.480 --> 0:51:24.680 all the Vedic stories. There's all these crazy characters and 0:51:24.760 --> 0:51:27.640 monsters and dragons and and you know, the gods are 0:51:27.840 --> 0:51:30.080 you know, the whole thing was it was very colorful 0:51:30.239 --> 0:51:35.120 and and uh it's kind of this illustrious world of 0:51:35.160 --> 0:51:38.399 spirituality and and uh, you know they were they were 0:51:39.000 --> 0:51:43.480 great people, and I'd met someone who was you know, 0:51:43.520 --> 0:51:45.320 the kind of At one point told them I was 0:51:45.320 --> 0:51:49.160 struggling with my health and stuff, and they they referred 0:51:49.160 --> 0:51:52.840 me to someone in their community that was a aravadic 0:51:53.400 --> 0:51:57.840 aveda practitioner, and I started learning about learning about that 0:51:57.840 --> 0:51:59.360 that whole thing, and that was that was kind of 0:51:59.400 --> 0:52:02.520 a starting point of of just getting some basis on 0:52:02.840 --> 0:52:06.799 you know, what what my what type of body I have, 0:52:07.000 --> 0:52:09.680 and what type of foods are going to you know, 0:52:09.800 --> 0:52:13.239 be nourishing or not make me feel you know, really 0:52:13.280 --> 0:52:17.560 sick kind of thing. So that was that was the 0:52:17.560 --> 0:52:18.320 beginning of that journey. 0:52:18.360 --> 0:52:21.359 I guess, So what does this therapist say about all this? 0:52:22.680 --> 0:52:25.600 The therapist which which therapists? 0:52:25.680 --> 0:52:27.400 Have you been to therapy about all this? You went 0:52:27.440 --> 0:52:28.520 through all these crises? 0:52:29.560 --> 0:52:33.200 Yeah? Yeah, man, I've done I've done a lot of strange, 0:52:33.440 --> 0:52:36.160 strange things. There's different types of therapists. I talked to 0:52:37.239 --> 0:52:41.799 some you know, the traditional talk therapy used in you know, 0:52:41.880 --> 0:52:46.080 for the most part, I don't In those years, I 0:52:46.320 --> 0:52:49.520 never really I wasn't consistent with with with anything like that. 0:52:51.040 --> 0:52:52.839 And I think that the times that I did try 0:52:52.840 --> 0:52:56.640 that it was maybe it just was it wasn't the 0:52:56.680 --> 0:53:02.200 right fit, you know. But regardless, I I felt like, uh, 0:53:02.280 --> 0:53:04.480 talk therapy wasn't going deep enough for me. I knew, 0:53:04.560 --> 0:53:08.080 I knew it wasn't because the issue wasn't in my 0:53:08.360 --> 0:53:10.279 in my mind, it was in my body, you know, 0:53:10.400 --> 0:53:15.560 like the the the feeling or the experience of that 0:53:15.640 --> 0:53:18.600 loss relative to what my life had been prior to that, 0:53:18.680 --> 0:53:21.920 and my you know, like relationship to the world and 0:53:21.920 --> 0:53:25.160 and and things like that, and just kind of just 0:53:25.200 --> 0:53:27.440 not feeling safe in the world after all of that 0:53:28.200 --> 0:53:30.160 was it was not something that was in my mind. 0:53:30.200 --> 0:53:33.680 It was it was totally in my body, and the 0:53:33.760 --> 0:53:36.200 talk therapy just wasn't like I in my mind. I 0:53:36.280 --> 0:53:37.680 kind of got the whole thing I was. I was 0:53:37.880 --> 0:53:39.479 I was almost I was too much in my mind 0:53:39.520 --> 0:53:43.319 and had just like the connection between that and my 0:53:43.480 --> 0:53:45.600 life and my body. It just had been like kind 0:53:45.640 --> 0:53:50.240 of severed. So that just wasn't any time I tried 0:53:50.400 --> 0:53:52.520 something like that, it just it just wasn't working for me. 0:53:52.560 --> 0:53:57.680 It wasn't moving the needle at all. So yeah, you know, 0:53:57.719 --> 0:54:02.680 I once I exhausted all the all the conventional medicine 0:54:02.880 --> 0:54:06.000 types of things like you know, infectious disease doctors and 0:54:06.360 --> 0:54:10.359 all kinds of weird specialists and everyone. You know, there 0:54:10.400 --> 0:54:13.000 was like blood work stuff that was off and things 0:54:13.040 --> 0:54:14.960 that were you know, clearly an issue, but no one 0:54:15.000 --> 0:54:18.839 really knew why. You know. Then I started getting into 0:54:18.840 --> 0:54:22.200 the alternative stuff and exploring that way. It was you know, 0:54:22.560 --> 0:54:25.400 out of largely out of desperation. But then you know, 0:54:25.680 --> 0:54:28.160 on the note of the talk therapy thing, it was 0:54:29.239 --> 0:54:32.200 at the same time there was you know, born out 0:54:32.239 --> 0:54:35.840 of all that was kind of this pretty intense like 0:54:36.160 --> 0:54:39.920 needing to know, needing to try to find answers about 0:54:40.200 --> 0:54:42.239 what's going on here because that whole experience was so 0:54:42.239 --> 0:54:46.359 strange for me, and there was so many it's hard, 0:54:46.360 --> 0:54:49.120 it's you know, it sounds pretty pretty strange to say, 0:54:49.160 --> 0:54:51.560 but around that whole experience there was so much crazy 0:54:51.600 --> 0:54:57.040 synchronicity and you know, like I was, it's a yeah, 0:54:57.280 --> 0:55:00.439 really hard to explain, but so many experiences of there 0:55:00.480 --> 0:55:04.320 being wild signs and just things like that that just 0:55:04.360 --> 0:55:07.800 felt like there was no way that you know, it 0:55:08.080 --> 0:55:11.200 just took me completely out of my frame of what 0:55:11.320 --> 0:55:15.960 life was prior to that, and it kind of sent 0:55:16.040 --> 0:55:21.880 me on a path of pretty you know, ravenously seeking 0:55:22.520 --> 0:55:25.839 answers about what's going on here. 0:55:27.280 --> 0:55:30.160 Okay, the nature of being in a band, they are 0:55:30.239 --> 0:55:35.000 multiple people, things are planned in advance. Sometimes in excess 0:55:35.040 --> 0:55:38.879 of a yeared advance, planning goes down. Is there any 0:55:38.960 --> 0:55:41.600 voice in the back of your head, well, maybe my 0:55:41.760 --> 0:55:44.239 health won't be good enough to do this I might 0:55:44.400 --> 0:55:52.640 not be up to it. Is that a factor current day? Yeah? 0:55:52.680 --> 0:55:57.560 Current, No, at this point, I've I've it's it's not 0:55:57.760 --> 0:56:01.839 that extreme. You know, I've gained enough ground, so it's 0:56:01.880 --> 0:56:03.719 it's not like that. It's not that kind of thing. 0:56:03.840 --> 0:56:10.480 You know, I'm still seeking, I'm still looking for you know, 0:56:10.760 --> 0:56:15.399 looking for means to to move move the needle more 0:56:15.440 --> 0:56:20.840 and more. But you know, functionally, it's it's not I 0:56:20.840 --> 0:56:25.280 don't crash out like I used to as much. And uh, 0:56:25.400 --> 0:56:27.640 you know, it's it's not the same kind of struggle 0:56:27.680 --> 0:56:30.440 that it was, but it is. I mean, it's for sure, 0:56:31.080 --> 0:56:35.239 very challenging lifestyle to to be in with that kind 0:56:35.280 --> 0:56:40.919 of underlying. Yeah, I don't want to say I don't. 0:56:41.080 --> 0:56:43.120 I don't. I don't want to say weakness, but you know, 0:56:43.200 --> 0:56:46.680 it's it's with that that backdrop of a thing going on. 0:56:46.719 --> 0:56:50.680 It's it's definitely not an easy thing to continue healing 0:56:50.920 --> 0:56:55.279 while traveling around and you know, very high stress performance situations, 0:56:55.320 --> 0:56:58.160 all kinds of things like that. It's you know, it's 0:56:58.200 --> 0:57:03.239 it's tricky to navigate, but you know, throughout it's it's 0:57:03.239 --> 0:57:06.200 been many years of us you know, on the road. Now, 0:57:06.400 --> 0:57:10.520 I guess and Uh, in the earlier years, there is 0:57:10.560 --> 0:57:12.920 a lot more challenge to it. And I think as 0:57:12.960 --> 0:57:16.040 time has gone on and I've I've learned more things 0:57:16.120 --> 0:57:20.680 about things that can help and support on a physical level, 0:57:21.160 --> 0:57:23.720 whatever it may be, it's gotten easier. 0:57:24.680 --> 0:57:29.200 Okay. Would one say that your physical issues are behind 0:57:29.280 --> 0:57:31.840 you or you just know how to manage them now? 0:57:36.560 --> 0:57:40.760 Maybe maybe somewhere in between. You know, I certainly hope 0:57:40.800 --> 0:57:43.400 the worst, you know, I think the worst of it 0:57:43.440 --> 0:57:48.520 is behind me. But there's it's you know, I feel 0:57:48.560 --> 0:57:50.840 like the truth is out there. There's there's uh, there's 0:57:50.840 --> 0:57:53.000 still ways to that I could be moving the needle. 0:57:53.640 --> 0:57:57.520 It's really the simple stuff. It's, you know, but just 0:57:57.520 --> 0:57:59.760 just kind of there's there's so much that we don't 0:57:59.840 --> 0:58:02.920 learn learn about about, you know, how to what the 0:58:02.960 --> 0:58:07.400 things that actually support us in that way. And I've 0:58:07.400 --> 0:58:12.160 tried a lot of weird, weird alternative things, and you know, 0:58:12.200 --> 0:58:15.240 some of them were helpful, some of them I learned 0:58:15.400 --> 0:58:18.040 things from. But for the most part, it's really it's 0:58:18.040 --> 0:58:20.920 really like the simple stuff that I rely on the 0:58:20.920 --> 0:58:25.680 most and and have been the most impactful. But yeah, 0:58:25.720 --> 0:58:28.480 I mean I'm still as as much as I can. 0:58:28.560 --> 0:58:32.600 It's continuing to study and learn about things like that, 0:58:32.680 --> 0:58:34.520 things in that world, and it's it's such a it's 0:58:34.520 --> 0:58:37.840 a crazy space. I mean, there's like there's so much 0:58:37.920 --> 0:58:40.760 noise in that world, just like any any any space 0:58:40.880 --> 0:58:44.040 these days. But you know, it's just more and more 0:58:44.760 --> 0:58:48.640 so many different ideas about things, totally contradictory ideas about things. 0:58:48.680 --> 0:58:51.280 And so I'm just trying to you know, I try 0:58:51.280 --> 0:58:53.880 to keep an open mind and keep learning and and uh, 0:58:54.480 --> 0:58:56.600 you know, trying to get stronger all the time. 0:58:57.120 --> 0:59:03.120 So what's your relationship status today? I'm single and is 0:59:03.160 --> 0:59:05.640 there a significant other in the picture or not now? 0:59:06.800 --> 0:59:07.800 Not right now? Now? 0:59:08.160 --> 0:59:10.960 To what degree is that a result of the so 0:59:11.200 --> 0:59:12.760 called rock and roll lifestyle? 0:59:17.520 --> 0:59:20.520 You know, yeah, I'd say it's it's definitely a result 0:59:20.560 --> 0:59:24.040 of that. You know, I think it's a result of 0:59:24.200 --> 0:59:29.000 a number of things. You know, in part probably it 0:59:29.000 --> 0:59:32.520 feels like the the the health journey, and you know, 0:59:32.560 --> 0:59:34.320 it's it's not just the health thing. It's it's like, 0:59:35.160 --> 0:59:39.400 you know, the the degree to which I'm I'm able 0:59:39.440 --> 0:59:42.320 to be present with myself and with with everything. It's 0:59:42.360 --> 0:59:45.840 like that that feels like a factor. But it's also 0:59:47.040 --> 0:59:51.800 you know, the the like the the drive for for music, 0:59:51.840 --> 0:59:55.040 you know, the rock star lifestyle. It feels like more 0:59:55.160 --> 1:00:01.080 so a personal thing than that, more so just you know, 1:00:01.560 --> 1:00:06.800 being being my own biggest enemy, maybe from a from 1:00:06.800 --> 1:00:10.360 a lifestyle standpoint, and in terms of just like the 1:00:10.440 --> 1:00:14.560 hunger to to keep working and keep trying to move 1:00:14.640 --> 1:00:19.160 forward in both in any way possible, like the you know, 1:00:19.240 --> 1:00:23.960 creatively or or with like the well being thing, all 1:00:24.000 --> 1:00:28.960 of that. It's it's uh that it doesn't. It's a challenge. 1:00:29.600 --> 1:00:32.280 What's what's left? There's not much leftover. I guess that's 1:00:32.280 --> 1:00:33.320 what I'm getting at from that. 1:00:33.640 --> 1:00:38.800 Okay, you're driven in terms of relationships. On one level, 1:00:38.960 --> 1:00:43.320 you have this success that draws women to you. On 1:00:43.440 --> 1:00:47.120 another level, it draws women to you and they're attracted 1:00:47.160 --> 1:00:50.120 to something that might really not be you. What has 1:00:50.160 --> 1:00:51.360 your experience been. 1:00:55.600 --> 1:00:57.920 That's a tough one to to comment on. 1:00:59.360 --> 1:00:59.400 It. 1:00:59.520 --> 1:01:03.160 Does it they really? Uh, you know, it doesn't. It 1:01:03.200 --> 1:01:07.960 doesn't feel like there's uh, you know that we're we're 1:01:08.000 --> 1:01:11.480 you know, we have to we're not we're not swimming 1:01:11.640 --> 1:01:13.760 in uh, I'm not swimming in that kind of attention. 1:01:13.840 --> 1:01:15.880 It doesn't feel like, you know, there's there's there's some 1:01:16.000 --> 1:01:18.720 of it but it's it's really not uh you know, 1:01:18.840 --> 1:01:24.960 we're not the Beatles. It's I haven't had a ton 1:01:25.000 --> 1:01:26.880 of that experience, like when we're on the road and stuff. 1:01:26.920 --> 1:01:29.320 It's I'm kind of in a bubble. I'm not I'm 1:01:29.360 --> 1:01:31.959 not meeting a lot of people honestly in that way. 1:01:33.320 --> 1:01:36.240 And uh, yeah, it has it hasn't been a super 1:01:36.280 --> 1:01:39.240 present thing. When when the band first started doing really well, 1:01:40.600 --> 1:01:44.120 I I was I was in a relationship and I 1:01:44.160 --> 1:01:46.760 had fallen I had fallen for her really hard, and 1:01:46.920 --> 1:01:50.960 uh it was, uh, you know, it was kind of 1:01:51.520 --> 1:01:56.280 when that happens, at least in my experience, it's there's 1:01:56.360 --> 1:01:58.720 there's zero hesitation. You you kind of just like see 1:01:58.760 --> 1:02:01.040 red and it's just kind of like there's no it's 1:02:01.080 --> 1:02:03.640 tunnel vision kind of. And that was that was the situation. 1:02:04.120 --> 1:02:09.280 I started seeing her in twenty nineteen and right when 1:02:09.280 --> 1:02:12.960 the band really started, like you know, when the moment 1:02:13.000 --> 1:02:16.760 happened kind of, So it was it was a crazy 1:02:16.880 --> 1:02:20.080 that was a crazy turn of life. It was a 1:02:20.160 --> 1:02:24.440 it was a really really intense change of momentum from 1:02:24.480 --> 1:02:26.040 where where I was coming from what I was used to, 1:02:26.160 --> 1:02:29.720 you know, in both ways, like the band kind of 1:02:30.040 --> 1:02:32.880 all of a sudden, you know, starting to pop and 1:02:32.920 --> 1:02:37.160 then and then that that relationship on a personal level, 1:02:37.240 --> 1:02:39.160 it was it was just like this like roller coaster 1:02:39.400 --> 1:02:44.920 and it it kicked my ass, honestly, but yeah, that 1:02:45.040 --> 1:02:48.160 was that. I kind of thought that that was that 1:02:48.280 --> 1:02:51.160 was the one. And then as as the years went by, 1:02:51.280 --> 1:02:54.880 and you know, a lot happened throughout the pandemic and 1:02:55.280 --> 1:02:58.200 you know, things going on her family and things I 1:02:58.280 --> 1:03:00.280 was going through. You know, my health kind of got 1:03:00.320 --> 1:03:04.240 really really rough again throughout that period from the stress 1:03:04.320 --> 1:03:07.600 and I don't know other factors that were introduced into 1:03:08.120 --> 1:03:09.400 I don't I don't know what it was, but for 1:03:09.440 --> 1:03:11.840 whatever reason, I kind of crashed again pretty bad. In 1:03:12.360 --> 1:03:15.320 twenty twenty one, kind of when it hit came to 1:03:15.400 --> 1:03:20.000 a head, and yeah, we just you know the nature 1:03:20.000 --> 1:03:23.800 of our relationship changed a lot, and we were kind 1:03:23.800 --> 1:03:26.720 of coping with every everything that was happening. Her father 1:03:27.480 --> 1:03:30.360 had passed away, and so I was I was with 1:03:30.400 --> 1:03:33.960 her through that, and you know, the things she was 1:03:34.120 --> 1:03:36.160 she was trying to work through with her, you know, 1:03:36.280 --> 1:03:37.920 in her in the context of her family and her 1:03:37.920 --> 1:03:43.280 own life and things. We had this like very supportive friendship, 1:03:43.360 --> 1:03:46.280 but the romantic part of our relationship kind of just 1:03:47.560 --> 1:03:51.000 went away, and that took a toll over time and 1:03:51.600 --> 1:03:55.120 to the point, you know, eventually we just you know, 1:03:55.200 --> 1:03:59.960 decided to to go our separate ways. You know, we're 1:04:00.080 --> 1:04:04.800 don't touch and she's she's amazing. But yeah, just you know, 1:04:05.760 --> 1:04:07.160 it was it was a tough thing to navigate. 1:04:15.040 --> 1:04:19.080 Okay, what you're telling the story. The relationship ran its 1:04:19.120 --> 1:04:24.400 own course on traditional relationship issues. It wasn't a factor 1:04:24.520 --> 1:04:26.920 of your profession and dedication or was it. 1:04:28.480 --> 1:04:31.240 I don't think that was the That wasn't the reason 1:04:31.320 --> 1:04:35.160 for it. It was it was a factor. It poses 1:04:35.200 --> 1:04:38.760 a lot of challenge, for sure, but I don't I 1:04:38.800 --> 1:04:41.000 don't think that was you know, I can't point the 1:04:41.040 --> 1:04:43.520 finger at that, like that's why, you know. 1:04:44.120 --> 1:04:47.160 Okay, So at this point in time, how many gigs 1:04:47.160 --> 1:04:48.240 a year does Gooset do? 1:04:50.440 --> 1:04:54.920 Uh? You know, probably around eighty It feels like more 1:04:54.920 --> 1:04:55.200 than that. 1:04:55.360 --> 1:04:58.200 How did you establish that number is more too much 1:04:58.320 --> 1:04:59.760 or you need more the other the rest of the 1:04:59.800 --> 1:05:02.320 time to do something? How do you come up with 1:05:02.320 --> 1:05:02.880 that number? 1:05:05.040 --> 1:05:08.880 I think it's something we're you know, constantly trying to 1:05:09.360 --> 1:05:15.000 trying to figure out the world we're in. It is 1:05:15.440 --> 1:05:20.320 that the customary thing is perpetual touring, which you know, 1:05:20.360 --> 1:05:22.400 I've kind of talked about this a good amount in 1:05:22.480 --> 1:05:29.360 different different things, but it's, you know, the observationally typical 1:05:29.880 --> 1:05:34.680 artists bands, you know, the typical thing is, you know, 1:05:34.800 --> 1:05:36.920 you you make a record, you put the record out, 1:05:36.920 --> 1:05:40.680 you tour for like a year, two years usually, and 1:05:40.760 --> 1:05:44.040 then you kind of go dark and go back in 1:05:44.200 --> 1:05:46.800 and work on the next thing and until you're ready 1:05:46.800 --> 1:05:49.000 to make the next statement and you have that time 1:05:49.080 --> 1:05:54.760 to to be you know, two go into like creative 1:05:54.760 --> 1:06:00.360 fertility mode, you know. And that's been something I've I've 1:06:00.560 --> 1:06:04.640 I've kind of wrestled with, I suppose because you know, 1:06:04.920 --> 1:06:06.520 some people are able to write on the road, and 1:06:06.600 --> 1:06:09.560 I'm not one of them. It's when there's a lot 1:06:09.600 --> 1:06:11.600 going on, there's a lot of momentum and all this 1:06:11.840 --> 1:06:15.880 stuff over like overstimulation. It kind of it quiets all 1:06:15.920 --> 1:06:20.240 the the the voices from which I you know, rely 1:06:20.320 --> 1:06:24.160 on or try to tap into for making songs and 1:06:24.200 --> 1:06:28.560 stuff like that. They're they're they're quiet, they're they're subtle, 1:06:28.680 --> 1:06:31.560 you know, and it takes a lot of work and 1:06:31.600 --> 1:06:33.480 a lot of patience and a lot of stillness too. 1:06:34.080 --> 1:06:38.240 To hear hear anything from from that from that place 1:06:38.680 --> 1:06:43.160 for me, So that's been something I've wrestled with and 1:06:43.360 --> 1:06:46.720 I think we're still kind of constantly talking about it 1:06:46.760 --> 1:06:49.080 and and trying to figure out what the right balance 1:06:49.160 --> 1:06:52.040 is to to keep keep the momentum and keep the 1:06:52.040 --> 1:06:54.560 ball moving forward and keep playing shows. And because it's 1:06:54.640 --> 1:06:58.120 it is this that is like a self propelling thing. 1:06:58.200 --> 1:07:00.280 It's it's and I love it. Like when we get 1:07:00.280 --> 1:07:02.480 off we get to the end of a tour and 1:07:02.520 --> 1:07:05.200 where you know, everything's feeling great and like the crew, 1:07:05.760 --> 1:07:07.400 like the vibe with every it's a big family, it's 1:07:07.440 --> 1:07:11.520 a big tribe, and you know, there's there's so much, 1:07:12.200 --> 1:07:15.960 so much amazing, so many amazing things that come with 1:07:16.040 --> 1:07:20.360 that and from that. So it's it's it's pretty frequent 1:07:20.440 --> 1:07:21.880 that at the end of a tour it's like, man, 1:07:21.880 --> 1:07:23.400 I don't want to stop, Let's keep going. You know, 1:07:23.600 --> 1:07:25.800 it feels so great. But then at the same time, 1:07:25.840 --> 1:07:29.720 there's this other other side, this other voice that's like, dude, 1:07:29.760 --> 1:07:32.240 you need to stop for like three years. We need 1:07:32.280 --> 1:07:34.720 to just hang out in the woods and stare at 1:07:34.720 --> 1:07:38.440 trees and and be quiet and see what you know, 1:07:38.840 --> 1:07:41.320 just like be present in a way that I haven't 1:07:41.400 --> 1:07:44.840 in a very long time, you know. So you know, 1:07:45.000 --> 1:07:45.960 it's a balance thing. 1:07:46.040 --> 1:07:49.800 Well, I understand taking a break to recharge and to 1:07:49.840 --> 1:07:54.480 be inspired, but going back to the concept of an album, 1:07:55.040 --> 1:07:58.000 is a new release you talk about traditional cycle, but 1:07:58.000 --> 1:08:00.880 we no longer live in a traditional era. Is a 1:08:00.880 --> 1:08:04.280 new album necessary? 1:08:06.280 --> 1:08:08.600 It's a good question. It's a good question. Maybe not. 1:08:08.880 --> 1:08:13.040 I don't know, I uh, but whether it is or not, 1:08:13.400 --> 1:08:16.680 I want to make them, you know, I just I 1:08:17.360 --> 1:08:19.720 love it. That's that's kind of you know, from from 1:08:19.840 --> 1:08:22.000 day one in the basement, that's like that was the 1:08:22.040 --> 1:08:25.120 thing that excited me the most, and telling telling stories 1:08:25.320 --> 1:08:30.240 in that format, So you know, yeah, it's it's it's 1:08:30.240 --> 1:08:33.080 definitely valid, especially in the in the world that we 1:08:33.439 --> 1:08:36.200 primarily exist in. It's you know, the question of its 1:08:36.240 --> 1:08:41.320 relevance is is very valid because we you know, for 1:08:41.360 --> 1:08:44.240 the most part, are it seems like most of the 1:08:44.280 --> 1:08:47.320 people who you know, uh, come to the shows and stuff, 1:08:47.320 --> 1:08:49.920 are are just interested in that. Primarily they just want 1:08:49.960 --> 1:08:51.360 to come to the shows and listen to the shows 1:08:51.400 --> 1:08:55.599 and and do that. But regardless, I guess I don't. 1:08:55.680 --> 1:08:58.120 I just love I love making albums, and I want 1:08:58.120 --> 1:08:59.360 to make a lot of. 1:08:59.280 --> 1:09:03.400 Them, hope. So if you have to split it, to 1:09:03.520 --> 1:09:06.840 what degree are you in percentage wise into live performance, 1:09:06.880 --> 1:09:11.680 into what degree are you into making records. 1:09:10.200 --> 1:09:12.080 Like my own? You know what? Am I right? 1:09:12.120 --> 1:09:13.919 Your own inner tuning for decision. 1:09:16.080 --> 1:09:20.200 That's that's that's tough to put numbers too, you know, 1:09:20.200 --> 1:09:23.080 I from I from being really honest like I I 1:09:23.520 --> 1:09:29.840 I love making albums, probably more than playing shows. But 1:09:29.880 --> 1:09:32.720 that's that's uh. At the same time, when I think 1:09:32.760 --> 1:09:35.160 about what we're doing playing shows and our and our 1:09:35.200 --> 1:09:38.640 crew and moving, you know, and making improvements upon that 1:09:38.720 --> 1:09:41.400 and moving, you know, working on that, it's I I do. 1:09:41.600 --> 1:09:44.040 I love it just as much and and you know, 1:09:44.160 --> 1:09:48.760 on another hand, so it's really tough to say, but 1:09:49.400 --> 1:09:51.559 you know, I guess the cool thing is that both 1:09:52.720 --> 1:09:56.120 both can both can happen, and both will continue to happen, 1:09:56.200 --> 1:09:56.400 you know. 1:09:56.880 --> 1:10:00.439 Okay, making a record, there's writing the song as in 1:10:00.479 --> 1:10:04.639 recording the songs. A lot of people are very into 1:10:04.720 --> 1:10:07.559 the process of being in the studio or wherever you 1:10:07.600 --> 1:10:10.759 do it, your bedroom, your basement, and getting it down 1:10:10.880 --> 1:10:15.120 with the facts and layering, et cetera. Where does the 1:10:15.120 --> 1:10:18.080 interest lie with you more in the actual writing of 1:10:18.080 --> 1:10:24.120 the songs or getting them down in recording form. 1:10:24.760 --> 1:10:27.599 They feel it feels kind of like a an equal 1:10:27.600 --> 1:10:32.479 They're separate parts of the process. You know, they exist 1:10:32.520 --> 1:10:38.960 in a different space for sure, but i'd say they 1:10:40.320 --> 1:10:44.679 you know, I love that entire process as one thing 1:10:45.040 --> 1:10:47.120 so much, so they don't. You know, they are separate 1:10:47.280 --> 1:10:49.479 parts of the process. But you know, at the same time, 1:10:49.520 --> 1:10:53.120 it's it's it is one, it is one thing, one process. 1:10:54.400 --> 1:10:57.720 So I you know, I think I guess I love 1:10:57.840 --> 1:11:01.800 them both equally, and you know, there's there's sometimes they're 1:11:01.840 --> 1:11:06.760 not separate. Sometimes it's you know, sometimes the best if 1:11:06.760 --> 1:11:10.960 I'm stuck on something like from a just a writing phase, 1:11:11.360 --> 1:11:14.240 I'll just start, you know. Sometimes the way out of 1:11:14.280 --> 1:11:16.400 that is is working on a demo for it and 1:11:16.439 --> 1:11:20.559 just starting starting recording it and throwing ideas and decisions 1:11:20.600 --> 1:11:22.880 at it in that way. And then sometimes that can 1:11:23.200 --> 1:11:25.960 kind of like creak, you know, look at like get 1:11:26.000 --> 1:11:29.439 the wheels moving on on finishing an idea. Although I 1:11:29.439 --> 1:11:32.439 will say finishing things is not my strong point. I'm 1:11:32.479 --> 1:11:34.599 a lot better at starting ideas than finishing them. 1:11:34.840 --> 1:11:37.479 Okay, we live in an arrow now more than ever. 1:11:37.760 --> 1:11:42.360 One person can do it all themselves. To what degree 1:11:42.760 --> 1:11:47.160 is the songwriting and the recording collaborative with your band members. 1:11:50.040 --> 1:11:54.519 The songwriting varies. There's there's I guess, different buckets you 1:11:54.560 --> 1:11:58.439 could say of of how the how the writing gets done, 1:11:59.040 --> 1:12:03.400 uh for us, And you know, I think the philosophy 1:12:03.720 --> 1:12:06.240 of the band is like anyone anyone can write, anyone 1:12:06.240 --> 1:12:10.519 can bringing things to the table, and you know, everyone 1:12:10.880 --> 1:12:15.480 has brought ideas and things to the table the recording, 1:12:15.720 --> 1:12:17.840 you know, finding parts and also you know, there's also 1:12:17.880 --> 1:12:20.240 a different thing between the difference between the writing and 1:12:20.520 --> 1:12:24.240 then maybe you know, someone will write a song, I'll 1:12:24.280 --> 1:12:25.960 write a song and bring it to the band and 1:12:25.960 --> 1:12:28.680 then it's still a whole process of arranging it and 1:12:28.720 --> 1:12:31.559 finding parts and that whole thing. And that's that's kind 1:12:31.560 --> 1:12:34.479 of tied in this, you know, the same same, same, 1:12:34.520 --> 1:12:37.599 but different in terms of recording, you know, finding the arrangement, 1:12:37.640 --> 1:12:40.479 finding and sometimes we you know, we'll play as you know, 1:12:40.520 --> 1:12:41.920 we go and to record a song that we've been 1:12:41.920 --> 1:12:44.519 playing live for a while and feel a desire to 1:12:44.760 --> 1:12:47.360 completely change it and we do or not, you know, 1:12:47.560 --> 1:12:50.000 or we like we're still excited by the way we 1:12:50.000 --> 1:12:52.080 play it and it still feels good. So we decide 1:12:52.120 --> 1:12:53.639 to try to just record it the way we play 1:12:53.680 --> 1:12:56.519 it live. It all depends on how we feel about it, 1:12:56.600 --> 1:13:00.120 and and you know, what we feel most ect I 1:13:00.160 --> 1:13:04.760 did buy, I guess you could say, But yeah, I 1:13:04.760 --> 1:13:08.680 mean the process of arranging it, inevitably, that's gotta be. 1:13:09.040 --> 1:13:12.960 That's it's always interactive, finding parts and finding you know, 1:13:13.040 --> 1:13:14.920 what feels most alive, because sometimes you can have an 1:13:14.960 --> 1:13:17.200 idea about how something should be, like what kind of 1:13:17.200 --> 1:13:19.120 groove it should have or what kind of feel, and 1:13:19.240 --> 1:13:20.600 you know what the arrangement should be, and then you 1:13:20.640 --> 1:13:22.120 bring it in the room and it doesn't feel as 1:13:22.160 --> 1:13:24.479 alive as you thought it would. So then you have 1:13:24.520 --> 1:13:28.559 to go and explore and see see what you know, 1:13:28.960 --> 1:13:31.719 what feels the most alive and what plays the most 1:13:31.760 --> 1:13:34.679 to the strengths of the people in the band. 1:13:34.840 --> 1:13:39.400 You know, so your band has changed members multiple times, 1:13:40.439 --> 1:13:44.240 you're a steady factor. Does that make you the de 1:13:44.360 --> 1:13:45.280 facto leader? 1:13:50.479 --> 1:13:52.280 I mean, I don't know if I don't know if 1:13:52.320 --> 1:13:55.760 that would be the criteria for that, but I think 1:13:58.120 --> 1:14:01.000 I guess, I guess it's. You know, it's it's kind 1:14:01.000 --> 1:14:03.280 of just the same thing as like the old days 1:14:03.280 --> 1:14:06.320 it was. It was kind of like, you know, no 1:14:06.800 --> 1:14:08.840 I wanted to start, wanted to be in a band, 1:14:08.880 --> 1:14:10.400 wanted to play in a band, wanted to write songs 1:14:10.439 --> 1:14:13.800 and play them with a band. It's and no one was. 1:14:14.240 --> 1:14:16.880 No one was like handing out that opportunity. So it 1:14:16.920 --> 1:14:18.639 was kind of like, well, I'll just do it. I'll 1:14:18.680 --> 1:14:21.040 just start it, you know, and and and do it 1:14:21.040 --> 1:14:25.080 that way. And it's kind of I guess always just 1:14:25.160 --> 1:14:28.519 kind of been that way. So, you know, I think 1:14:28.560 --> 1:14:32.679 there's there's a lot of qualities and that I see 1:14:32.720 --> 1:14:37.800 other great leaders in in our world, you know, band 1:14:37.880 --> 1:14:40.719 leaders and stuff have that I don't feel like I'm 1:14:40.920 --> 1:14:43.200 I'm not you know, on that level with the with 1:14:43.360 --> 1:14:46.639 in certain respects, and so you know, there's I think 1:14:46.680 --> 1:14:49.360 there's I don't know, it's tough to tough to compare, 1:14:49.400 --> 1:14:51.120 tough to tough to look at that type of thing. 1:14:51.160 --> 1:14:54.559 But yeah, you know, I think just due to the 1:14:54.640 --> 1:14:59.760 nature of of like, hey, here's this idea, let's do it, 1:15:00.600 --> 1:15:04.040 and that that being you know, applied many times over, 1:15:04.240 --> 1:15:07.880 I guess kind of has resulted in, uh, you know, 1:15:08.040 --> 1:15:10.160 how how how things roll in our camp? 1:15:10.880 --> 1:15:21.520 Well, how jarring or inspiring is it to change band members. 1:15:18.760 --> 1:15:22.080 Depends I you know, like you said, it's we've it's 1:15:22.120 --> 1:15:24.920 happened a lot. You know, it was. It was not 1:15:25.000 --> 1:15:30.240 an easy process for us. You know, it took a 1:15:30.280 --> 1:15:33.880 lot of work and a lot of experimenting and a 1:15:33.880 --> 1:15:38.400 lot of you know, different iterations to try to find 1:15:38.439 --> 1:15:42.080 the right formula and and and uh you know the 1:15:42.120 --> 1:15:46.280 thing the things that will just work for us, and 1:15:46.520 --> 1:15:49.080 you know, it's a yeah, it's been a serious process. 1:15:49.080 --> 1:15:52.479 There's there's a lot of uh, there's like this this air, 1:15:52.680 --> 1:15:55.479 this can this this conjecture that in in like the 1:15:55.560 --> 1:15:58.479 jam band world that you know, Goose was this uh, 1:15:59.280 --> 1:16:02.160 this like test tube thing, like an industry plant and 1:16:02.200 --> 1:16:04.559 that like you know, it was like a you know, 1:16:04.760 --> 1:16:08.720 the the boy band of the jam band world or 1:16:08.760 --> 1:16:11.080 something where like some some guy like put it all 1:16:11.120 --> 1:16:14.200 together and it's it's a it's a funny it's a 1:16:14.240 --> 1:16:19.040 funny thing too funny perception that has evolved out of 1:16:19.040 --> 1:16:22.400 that in the context of like what a crazy rocky 1:16:22.479 --> 1:16:26.120 road it was in reality and how imperfect and how 1:16:26.240 --> 1:16:30.240 much failure there was getting to this point in those 1:16:30.280 --> 1:16:32.880 early years, like yeah, we went we went through we 1:16:32.920 --> 1:16:34.559 tried a lot of different things, went through a bunch 1:16:34.600 --> 1:16:39.800 of different members. Some of them it was, you know, 1:16:39.880 --> 1:16:42.320 incredibly amicable, and it was just kind of like, hey, 1:16:42.479 --> 1:16:44.439 you know, I don't this is really work anymore, and 1:16:44.439 --> 1:16:46.599 they're like cool. I was thinking the same thing. We're 1:16:46.600 --> 1:16:49.240 like cool, let's be friends and and like go our 1:16:49.280 --> 1:16:51.439 separate ways. And then other times it was like, hey, 1:16:51.479 --> 1:16:54.320 this isn't working anymore, and it was you know, people 1:16:54.360 --> 1:16:57.320 were really hurt by it, and and it was it 1:16:57.400 --> 1:17:01.479 was a really difficult thing to navigate, and you know, 1:17:01.600 --> 1:17:04.720 it's yeah, it's both just it's just like relationships in 1:17:04.920 --> 1:17:07.000 any in any circumstance, you know. 1:17:08.200 --> 1:17:13.120 You reference, you know, conceptions of the world, the jam 1:17:13.160 --> 1:17:17.799 band world calling you a boy band, etc. A. Isn't 1:17:17.840 --> 1:17:22.960 that just jealousy? And where do you think that blowback 1:17:23.080 --> 1:17:24.599 is coming from? What is that about? 1:17:26.800 --> 1:17:31.080 I don't know, you know, there's there's some aspects of 1:17:31.120 --> 1:17:33.320 it I would say that are that are kind of obvious. 1:17:33.360 --> 1:17:35.240 There's there's kind of like it's just part of the 1:17:35.320 --> 1:17:37.640 nature of maybe the jam band scene is there's this 1:17:37.760 --> 1:17:41.040 kind of tribalism and you know, sports teams kind of 1:17:41.160 --> 1:17:44.599 mentality where like, you know, my jam band is better 1:17:44.640 --> 1:17:47.479 than your jam band kind of thing. So you know, 1:17:47.560 --> 1:17:49.320 part of that's just just part of the scene has 1:17:49.360 --> 1:17:51.240 been for a long time, and you know, is what 1:17:51.280 --> 1:17:56.240 it is. It's nothing ultimately, you know, it's it's nothing 1:17:56.360 --> 1:18:00.560 that's worth losing sleepover. And then you know, sometimes I 1:18:00.880 --> 1:18:03.519 did it does I'm like whoa, Like why? You know? 1:18:03.520 --> 1:18:05.639 How did it? How did this? How did this happen? 1:18:05.720 --> 1:18:09.559 Like how did it get this crazy? You know? So, 1:18:09.720 --> 1:18:12.320 I you know, on some on some levels, there's there's 1:18:12.320 --> 1:18:14.559 some obvious stuff where there's there's answers to that, and 1:18:14.600 --> 1:18:16.880 then other times where I'm like, I don't know this 1:18:17.520 --> 1:18:20.880 whole things strange, you know, because when when we were 1:18:20.880 --> 1:18:23.160 coming up, when it was first happening, there wasn't you know, 1:18:23.439 --> 1:18:26.760 there wasn't much of that. But uh, and then you know, 1:18:26.960 --> 1:18:29.320 part of the thing is just like if something gets 1:18:29.520 --> 1:18:33.719 gets bigger, then it's no longer cool to think it's cool, 1:18:33.920 --> 1:18:34.280 you know. 1:18:34.920 --> 1:18:37.200 So how big can it get? If you're talking on 1:18:37.360 --> 1:18:40.360 the roots of the Jambn scene, the Grateful did maybe 1:18:40.360 --> 1:18:43.840 the Alman Brothers, that was a completely different era. Time 1:18:43.880 --> 1:18:47.479 has flown by when they started calling at the Jambn scene. 1:18:47.880 --> 1:18:52.640 Blues Traveler had a hit on MTV Run Around, but 1:18:53.400 --> 1:18:58.800 since that time there's a scene. But even Fish one 1:18:58.840 --> 1:19:01.599 of the at this point the stall warts of the scene, 1:19:01.880 --> 1:19:05.960 they don't cross out of the jam band world. Ay, 1:19:06.880 --> 1:19:10.519 do you have a desire to cross and what would 1:19:10.520 --> 1:19:13.000 it take to reach more people? 1:19:14.320 --> 1:19:18.719 Mm? Yeah, you know, I think Trey has talked about 1:19:18.760 --> 1:19:21.240 that when you know, when they were around, there was 1:19:21.240 --> 1:19:25.200 no quote unquote jam band scene, which you know I'm 1:19:25.240 --> 1:19:30.639 saying that saying using that term. You know, it's yeah, 1:19:30.760 --> 1:19:31.760 it's it's a strange thing. 1:19:31.800 --> 1:19:32.000 You know. 1:19:33.360 --> 1:19:36.320 What I think is cool about that scene is, you know, 1:19:36.680 --> 1:19:40.240 it was maybe never more never more so the case 1:19:40.280 --> 1:19:43.639 than in the nineties. There was just like the hord 1:19:43.720 --> 1:19:46.120 Tor kind of kind of world. Everyone had their own 1:19:46.240 --> 1:19:49.960 sound and their own voice, and and it was a 1:19:50.120 --> 1:19:55.040 it was a very colorful like community you know of music. 1:19:56.280 --> 1:19:58.479 And you know that's that's still the case. There's there's 1:19:58.520 --> 1:20:00.600 still so many cool things going and on now and 1:20:01.120 --> 1:20:05.000 create really really amazing bands and people with different sounds 1:20:05.000 --> 1:20:09.920 and different combinations of influences. You know. I guess to 1:20:10.000 --> 1:20:17.080 your question, I my philosophy about that is if you 1:20:17.120 --> 1:20:20.200 can have ideas about that kind of thing, and uh 1:20:20.600 --> 1:20:22.320 be like, oh, I want to I want to be 1:20:22.360 --> 1:20:26.120 different in this way. I want to you know, not 1:20:26.320 --> 1:20:28.000 be this or be I want to be this. And 1:20:28.040 --> 1:20:31.479 it's it's that being heady about it like that rarely 1:20:31.520 --> 1:20:37.640 in my experience, results in anything worthwhile. It rarely works, 1:20:38.360 --> 1:20:42.000 you know. I think I've always had this feeling that like, 1:20:42.120 --> 1:20:44.760 you kind of have what you have, you can work 1:20:44.800 --> 1:20:46.400 on it, you can get better, you can you can 1:20:47.240 --> 1:20:49.080 you know, pull your thread as much as you want 1:20:49.120 --> 1:20:51.120 to get deeper and deeper into your process, which is 1:20:51.160 --> 1:20:53.920 what everyone should do. It's the you know, that's the 1:20:53.920 --> 1:20:55.439 best thing you can do. But at the same time, 1:20:56.400 --> 1:20:59.280 it's your you. You have to honor and you have 1:20:59.360 --> 1:21:02.040 to be real about, like what you are really drawn to, 1:21:02.120 --> 1:21:04.360 what you really get off on, and what you're really 1:21:04.360 --> 1:21:09.639 inspired by. In my case that you know, I kind 1:21:09.640 --> 1:21:12.479 of what we're talking about before, in high school and stuff. 1:21:12.520 --> 1:21:16.320 I was, you know, fully immersed in that you know, 1:21:16.400 --> 1:21:20.040 quote unquote jampan world, which I admittedly don't I don't 1:21:20.040 --> 1:21:24.719 think that's the uh the most you know, illustrious term, 1:21:25.439 --> 1:21:28.240 but you know whatever, the improvisational rock world, the jam 1:21:28.240 --> 1:21:30.040 band world, whatever you want to call it. I was. 1:21:30.120 --> 1:21:32.800 I loved it. I was totally immersed in it. Where 1:21:32.840 --> 1:21:35.439 I grew up, that was what everyone was doing. Everyone 1:21:35.479 --> 1:21:38.479 was going to the shows. And you know, even even 1:21:38.520 --> 1:21:40.680 like the really cool kids, the cool popular kids were 1:21:40.680 --> 1:21:42.400 going to those shows. Everyone. It was just it was 1:21:42.439 --> 1:21:44.920 a thing. And so that was where I was coming from, 1:21:44.920 --> 1:21:46.960 and I was. I loved it. I was. I was 1:21:47.000 --> 1:21:50.519 completely taken with it. And then you know, as I 1:21:50.560 --> 1:21:54.360 got out of college and those those years, and I 1:21:54.400 --> 1:21:56.800 was kind of entered into a very different I wasn't 1:21:56.800 --> 1:21:58.559 partying at all. I was pretty sick. It was kind 1:21:58.560 --> 1:22:02.240 of in a very different emotional place. I started getting 1:22:02.240 --> 1:22:06.400 into really different music, and a lot more modern music, 1:22:07.600 --> 1:22:11.519 because I prior to that point I really wasn't in 1:22:11.560 --> 1:22:15.519 tune at all with with like the current indie world 1:22:15.600 --> 1:22:19.160 or even you know, pop or anything like that. I 1:22:19.800 --> 1:22:22.920 had no idea. I was listening to more Otis Redding 1:22:23.000 --> 1:22:28.559 and West Montgomery and Nina Simone. Had no idea about 1:22:28.600 --> 1:22:31.439 Fleet Foxes or Bony Bear, but those those bands. When 1:22:31.479 --> 1:22:34.240 I kind of discovered that music, it like took over 1:22:34.800 --> 1:22:40.000 my my situation. I was so inspired and so enamored 1:22:40.040 --> 1:22:44.200 with that music. It started with the Fleet Foxes. I 1:22:44.240 --> 1:22:46.720 was like that I was just fully immersed in that 1:22:46.800 --> 1:22:49.400 world for for years and my throughout my twenties. It 1:22:49.479 --> 1:22:52.800 was you know, those first two records and that that 1:22:52.920 --> 1:22:56.559 EP the sunshint Ep. It was like those It was 1:22:56.640 --> 1:22:59.040 such an immersive thing, which I that's what I you know, 1:22:59.120 --> 1:23:01.479 I love that so much. It was it was like 1:23:01.520 --> 1:23:05.920 this timeless yet kind of like this medieval medieval world 1:23:05.960 --> 1:23:09.519 and the artwork and their aesthetic and and the music, 1:23:09.760 --> 1:23:12.559 it all, it all worked so well together, and it 1:23:12.600 --> 1:23:16.680 all created such a specific feeling and world that I 1:23:16.800 --> 1:23:19.439 just like didn't want to leave. And that led to, 1:23:19.640 --> 1:23:22.719 you know, discovering other other things. So at that point 1:23:22.760 --> 1:23:26.000 in my life that that type of music and and 1:23:26.040 --> 1:23:32.479 different artists doing things in real time now became became 1:23:32.560 --> 1:23:35.200 like my main point of inspiration and in a lot 1:23:35.240 --> 1:23:40.880 of ways, and I think you know that that to 1:23:41.000 --> 1:23:44.280 me kind of became the somewhat of a novel idea. 1:23:45.800 --> 1:23:48.120 You know, I wanted to hear I wanted to hear 1:23:49.240 --> 1:23:53.759 Fleet Foxes, you know, go on a really cool twenty 1:23:53.760 --> 1:23:58.000 minute improvisation after they're really cool songs, you know, and uh, 1:23:58.280 --> 1:24:01.960 that didn't really exist to my awareness, So that kind 1:24:01.960 --> 1:24:05.040 of became this this idea of like, you know, well, 1:24:05.960 --> 1:24:10.400 I'm I'm very taken and drawn to these these these 1:24:10.439 --> 1:24:14.600 this world and you know, other other approaches to songwriting 1:24:14.640 --> 1:24:17.640 and production and stuff like that, and uh, you know, 1:24:17.760 --> 1:24:21.000 maybe marrying that with with my roots and in the 1:24:21.040 --> 1:24:24.800 improvisational rock world and jazz and stuff like that. It, 1:24:24.920 --> 1:24:28.280 you know, it it felt like a h there was 1:24:28.320 --> 1:24:30.439 there were things to threads to pull, there things to 1:24:30.479 --> 1:24:31.080 explore there. 1:24:31.120 --> 1:24:41.719 You know, I've never met an artist who didn't want 1:24:41.800 --> 1:24:45.439 to reach more people, have a larger audience. So you 1:24:45.479 --> 1:24:49.639 talk about your personal musical journey by the same token, 1:24:49.720 --> 1:24:52.160 you want more people to listen to music, right. 1:24:54.160 --> 1:24:56.120 Yeah, yeah, like you said, I don't, I don't you 1:24:56.160 --> 1:24:59.960 know who doesn't want that? I mean there there's there's 1:25:00.160 --> 1:25:01.760 the part I think a lot of probably a lot 1:25:01.760 --> 1:25:07.040 of artists I maybe maybe have a similar thing of 1:25:07.040 --> 1:25:09.240 of there's there's some kind of point of wrestling with 1:25:09.320 --> 1:25:13.320 that where you know everyone wants that because I guess 1:25:13.360 --> 1:25:17.439 it's just a natural thing to want. But then you know, 1:25:17.520 --> 1:25:19.280 as the more it happens, the more you do it, 1:25:19.320 --> 1:25:21.720 the more you realize like the things that come with 1:25:21.760 --> 1:25:26.880 it and how those things can be struggle. And you know, 1:25:27.000 --> 1:25:30.920 for me, I still I still believe in that I 1:25:30.920 --> 1:25:34.800 feel like though, I feel like it's worthwhile, you know, 1:25:34.880 --> 1:25:38.200 trying to get trying to get bigger and working working 1:25:38.520 --> 1:25:43.040 to you know, to reach more people there. You know, 1:25:43.080 --> 1:25:46.720 it's it's easy. You can easily view that maybe the 1:25:46.760 --> 1:25:49.519 impulse is to view that as as a self serving 1:25:49.880 --> 1:25:53.920 kind of endeavor, which I'm sure you know, inevitably on 1:25:53.960 --> 1:25:56.000 a lot of levels it is. But at the same time, 1:25:56.200 --> 1:26:01.080 there's a I've always seen something beautifull about it, and 1:26:01.640 --> 1:26:04.280 you know, have seen, like I know, the way that 1:26:05.680 --> 1:26:08.800 I know the impact that bands who have been very 1:26:08.800 --> 1:26:11.479 big and have done big, amazing things have had on me, 1:26:11.640 --> 1:26:14.920 and how inspiring that's been to me. And I've seen 1:26:15.000 --> 1:26:17.920 how it's the space that's occupied in other people's lives 1:26:18.400 --> 1:26:21.559 and how you know, it has the ability to help 1:26:22.040 --> 1:26:25.559 people get through, you know, things that they're experiencing and 1:26:25.720 --> 1:26:28.519 things that they're struggling with and provide some kind of 1:26:28.600 --> 1:26:31.920 light in their lives. And you know, so I think 1:26:31.960 --> 1:26:35.760 that that you know, became that became a mission for 1:26:35.800 --> 1:26:38.280 me at a certain point after after the things I 1:26:38.320 --> 1:26:43.080 had experienced and stuff. It kind of amplified that, it 1:26:43.479 --> 1:26:51.080 reframed and amplified that as you know, going from being 1:26:51.280 --> 1:26:53.599 stone in high school watching Fish DVDs being like that 1:26:53.680 --> 1:26:56.360 looks awesome. I definitely want to do that too, you know, 1:26:58.400 --> 1:27:00.800 really kind of getting to this place where I was 1:27:00.880 --> 1:27:09.800 really struggling with my existence and trying to make sense 1:27:09.800 --> 1:27:12.080 out of that, and you know, all the things that 1:27:12.080 --> 1:27:14.439 had happened and the things I had lost and the life, 1:27:14.720 --> 1:27:18.120 the life, that lifestyle and experiences that I had lost. 1:27:17.880 --> 1:27:22.880 In Let me put it this way. At this point, 1:27:22.920 --> 1:27:28.920 whatever label we use, jam band, improvisational rock, it's a ghetto. 1:27:30.080 --> 1:27:32.040 And if you're in it, you know who all the 1:27:32.080 --> 1:27:38.240 acts are. Your act is a relatively new act that 1:27:38.280 --> 1:27:42.639 has been very successful. Okay, that is not the case 1:27:42.720 --> 1:27:46.280 with most acts. There's not a plethora of new acts 1:27:46.320 --> 1:27:51.479 bubbling up. So Goose came along was very successful. Okay, 1:27:52.120 --> 1:27:55.360 you could do what you're doing. I'm not talking in 1:27:55.439 --> 1:27:58.519 terms of the music itself. I'm talking about a career arc. 1:27:59.520 --> 1:28:02.599 You could do what you're doing, and thirty years from 1:28:02.640 --> 1:28:05.719 now you could be Fish. You could do what you're doing. 1:28:05.880 --> 1:28:09.479 Thirty years from now you can be Fleet Foxes. Those 1:28:09.560 --> 1:28:15.439 are ultimately cult acts. They have an audience that keeps 1:28:15.479 --> 1:28:20.360 them alive. Now, in reality, everybody's a cult act today, 1:28:20.400 --> 1:28:24.400 even Taylor's with people are paying attention where they're not. Okay, 1:28:25.080 --> 1:28:28.240 But as I say, it's not rocket science. You look 1:28:28.240 --> 1:28:32.120 at your new album. These songs are lengthy, and you 1:28:32.160 --> 1:28:36.759 could say, theoretically, you're an educated person literally musically educated, 1:28:36.800 --> 1:28:40.280 could say, well, you know I could do a verse 1:28:40.360 --> 1:28:46.680 chorus bridge thing, throwing a solo, and you know that 1:28:46.800 --> 1:28:51.200 might have a chance of moving the needle further. What 1:28:51.200 --> 1:28:52.320 do you think about that? 1:28:56.760 --> 1:28:59.519 So you're asking if if we're thinking about things those 1:28:59.640 --> 1:28:59.960 in those. 1:29:01.000 --> 1:29:03.760 I'm being practical. Where you are right now is a 1:29:03.920 --> 1:29:09.000 very good spot. But all of your predecessors that's as 1:29:09.040 --> 1:29:16.000 far as they've gotten. Okay, you have other people in 1:29:16.040 --> 1:29:18.920 that world we're using shorthand Jamban, let's just use that 1:29:19.520 --> 1:29:24.000 who are jealous of your success. But the vast majority 1:29:24.000 --> 1:29:26.479 of the public has no idea who you are, or 1:29:26.600 --> 1:29:29.640 if they know who you are, wouldn't be able to 1:29:29.680 --> 1:29:36.439 identify your music. So if you look at history, that's 1:29:36.479 --> 1:29:39.439 the way it's going to be going forward. The difference 1:29:39.479 --> 1:29:42.200 with your act is you are very successful in a 1:29:42.240 --> 1:29:45.080 short period of time, which has not happened in this 1:29:45.200 --> 1:29:50.720 world for a while. So the question arises is there 1:29:50.760 --> 1:29:56.800 a broader audience for your music. Secondly, is there a 1:29:57.000 --> 1:30:00.160 tweak such that it can be made? Listen, if we 1:30:00.280 --> 1:30:05.000 used the progenitor here, the Grateful Dead, Okay, Anthem of 1:30:05.040 --> 1:30:10.000 the Sun, those records, those were long improvisational records for 1:30:10.120 --> 1:30:15.280 hardcore fans, only growing slowly. You get The Working Man's Dead, 1:30:15.760 --> 1:30:18.120 American Beauty Quanti. It is a little bit of a 1:30:18.200 --> 1:30:22.120 change in style, but a lot of people could understand it, 1:30:22.600 --> 1:30:26.920 and the people who understood it became fans and carried 1:30:27.000 --> 1:30:30.680 through many years after. You know, they ultimately were on 1:30:30.680 --> 1:30:34.280 Arista and they had an MTV hit whatever. They knew 1:30:34.360 --> 1:30:38.320 what the game was, and they made certain choices that 1:30:38.479 --> 1:30:42.559 ultimately didn't compromise who they were, but it brought them 1:30:42.600 --> 1:30:46.240 to a larger audience. They were not the only band 1:30:46.280 --> 1:30:49.760 in that sphere. They're just the band that's most remembered, 1:30:50.160 --> 1:30:53.840 that has the largest audience. Okay, you're a smart guy. 1:30:54.320 --> 1:30:57.240 In the back of your mind, do you think about that? Hey, 1:30:57.720 --> 1:31:00.679 you know, I'm here and it's pretty good to be here, 1:31:01.520 --> 1:31:04.120 but could I be somewhere that would even be better? 1:31:07.080 --> 1:31:10.519 Yeah, when you put it like that, definitely, I don't know. 1:31:10.560 --> 1:31:14.120 I don't think that in our case, I don't think 1:31:14.120 --> 1:31:18.680 it equates to like, hey, let's write some you know, Uh, 1:31:19.240 --> 1:31:21.600 there's I don't. I don't there's not a there's not 1:31:21.640 --> 1:31:27.960 a moment of a contrived desire to write pop songs, 1:31:28.080 --> 1:31:31.800 you know. I I think there's there's a lot of 1:31:31.800 --> 1:31:35.880 pop music that excites me. Actually, there's you know, there's 1:31:35.920 --> 1:31:38.439 certain yeah, there's certain pop music that I think is 1:31:38.479 --> 1:31:41.920 awesome and and production and you know, as much as 1:31:41.960 --> 1:31:45.240 I love a twenty minute jam, I there's sometimes I 1:31:45.280 --> 1:31:48.760 love there's like three minute songs that are you know, 1:31:48.920 --> 1:31:52.880 crushing on the radio that I think are amazing. So 1:31:53.600 --> 1:31:56.479 part of that is it's a genuine you know, I 1:31:56.680 --> 1:31:59.120 part of me wants to make more music like that. 1:31:59.320 --> 1:32:01.120 Another part of me wants to get deeper and deeper 1:32:01.160 --> 1:32:08.120 into the improvisational thing. So it's uh, you know, yeah, 1:32:08.240 --> 1:32:11.439 I don't. I don't think. Uh, there's The thing I 1:32:11.479 --> 1:32:13.400 want to do mostly is pull on new threads and 1:32:13.479 --> 1:32:17.280 try to become more more of what we can be, 1:32:17.479 --> 1:32:19.360 you know, like like how how much can we be? 1:32:19.680 --> 1:32:22.400 You know? And when it comes to the to the 1:32:22.400 --> 1:32:25.160 business of it and the the thing I know, I 1:32:25.240 --> 1:32:28.439 never really you know, all of all the people that 1:32:28.479 --> 1:32:31.000 I look up to have have paved their own path 1:32:32.160 --> 1:32:34.640 and created their own worlds. And to me that I 1:32:34.640 --> 1:32:37.400 think that's always seemed like the best case scenario is 1:32:37.479 --> 1:32:40.200 just being existing in your own world pulling people in 1:32:40.800 --> 1:32:43.880 that weren't aren't always you know, not like that. Aren't 1:32:44.600 --> 1:32:48.360 just fish fans or just you know, other fans of 1:32:48.360 --> 1:32:54.280 other things. That's that really excites me. You know the thing, 1:32:54.520 --> 1:32:58.040 you know, the notion of someone hearing a song of 1:32:58.080 --> 1:33:03.080 ours that has no bearing, no awareness, no experience with 1:33:03.160 --> 1:33:06.200 improvisational music, there jam, the jam band scene, any anything 1:33:06.280 --> 1:33:09.040 like that, and getting into it, coming to a show, 1:33:09.640 --> 1:33:13.559 probably being pretty surprised with you know, there being music 1:33:13.600 --> 1:33:16.519 happening for twenty minutes on end with no vocals or 1:33:16.520 --> 1:33:21.479 anything like that. And you know, the notion of some 1:33:21.560 --> 1:33:25.559 of those people that person discovering that they like that 1:33:25.720 --> 1:33:29.960 approach to music and are are you know, are taken 1:33:30.120 --> 1:33:33.679 by that, by the journey of that. That's really exciting 1:33:33.680 --> 1:33:37.280 to me. And I think, and I hope that's already happening. 1:33:37.320 --> 1:33:41.719 You know, obviously we've we've come up in in that scene, 1:33:41.760 --> 1:33:46.080 in that world and for the most part, and you know, 1:33:46.520 --> 1:33:49.840 some it's it's tough to tell. There's no way to know, 1:33:49.960 --> 1:33:52.200 but it feels like it's somewhat split. You know. Some 1:33:52.280 --> 1:33:55.000 of those some of those people like what we're doing. 1:33:55.200 --> 1:33:58.280 Some of them, you know, pretty passionately don't like it seemingly, 1:33:59.240 --> 1:34:01.600 which you know, there's nothing we can do about that, 1:34:01.880 --> 1:34:05.559 but just keep trying to get better. But you know, 1:34:06.000 --> 1:34:11.200 I think, yeah, I think that's a really exciting thing having, uh, 1:34:11.360 --> 1:34:14.439 having people that exist that listen to completely different types 1:34:14.479 --> 1:34:18.320 of music somehow stumble into our world and if they 1:34:18.439 --> 1:34:20.479 like it and want to learn more about it, and 1:34:20.720 --> 1:34:22.719 that's I think that's a really cool thing and that's 1:34:22.960 --> 1:34:26.680 something worth striving for. It in my mind, is you know, 1:34:26.960 --> 1:34:30.280 opening up, opening up more more past, and sometimes that 1:34:30.360 --> 1:34:33.599 leads people to other improvisational music that other jam bands 1:34:33.720 --> 1:34:36.120 and uh, and I think that's a really cool thing. 1:34:36.240 --> 1:34:36.439 You know. 1:34:37.439 --> 1:34:42.200 So let's go back a chapter. Your father dies. You 1:34:42.240 --> 1:34:45.320 say your mother didn't work outside the house after the 1:34:45.400 --> 1:34:49.000 children were there. To what degree did that affect the 1:34:49.040 --> 1:34:50.760 family and you financially? 1:34:54.520 --> 1:34:58.600 My dad worked really hard. I mean he was you know, 1:34:58.640 --> 1:35:01.799 he came from lower middle class US and in Long Island, 1:35:01.840 --> 1:35:06.840 didn't didn't come for much of anything, and uh, worked 1:35:06.960 --> 1:35:09.480 worked really hard, worked his way up in the insurance 1:35:09.640 --> 1:35:15.479 insurance companies in Connecticut, and you know it was a 1:35:15.680 --> 1:35:17.240 was a like I was, like I was saying, kind 1:35:17.240 --> 1:35:19.400 of a charismatic guy. People were drawn to him. People 1:35:19.479 --> 1:35:22.040 really liked him, and I think that really helped him 1:35:22.040 --> 1:35:25.160 in his career and you know, he he ended up 1:35:25.160 --> 1:35:28.320 doing doing well. We weren't like, we weren't loaded, but 1:35:28.360 --> 1:35:31.400 we were comfortable, and you know, there was there are 1:35:31.439 --> 1:35:34.080 certain points in my life where it seemed like I 1:35:34.120 --> 1:35:38.160 think things changed for my parents financially, like when when 1:35:38.160 --> 1:35:40.519 they first when they first got a house in Wilton 1:35:41.040 --> 1:35:44.439 when I was born, and they didn't pay much for 1:35:44.479 --> 1:35:46.320 it at all. It was it was a you know, 1:35:46.360 --> 1:35:49.639 the town I think was still there was still pretty rural, 1:35:49.920 --> 1:35:54.559 kind of lower income, uh options for for for people 1:35:54.680 --> 1:35:58.880 at that time there. And yeah, maybe I was in 1:35:58.920 --> 1:36:01.599 middle school or something. I think he got a promotion 1:36:01.920 --> 1:36:05.320 or something like that. And you know that I was 1:36:05.479 --> 1:36:08.639 too young to like, I wasn't really aware of things 1:36:08.640 --> 1:36:11.080 on that level at that point. But in retrospect, is 1:36:11.160 --> 1:36:14.040 it is you know, we we we started going on 1:36:14.160 --> 1:36:16.920 vacations and going you know, doing a trip to a 1:36:17.320 --> 1:36:19.320 to a hotel in Mexico for a week, you know, 1:36:19.520 --> 1:36:21.960 or they did. They did some work on the house 1:36:22.000 --> 1:36:24.640 that you know, there was there's some things that I 1:36:24.640 --> 1:36:27.080 think there are points where he started doing better and 1:36:27.439 --> 1:36:30.920 making more money. And by the time he died, I 1:36:30.920 --> 1:36:34.360 think my family, my mom was comfortable enough so that 1:36:35.360 --> 1:36:39.040 we were able to she like, she's she's able, she's 1:36:39.280 --> 1:36:43.519 she's able to live off of off of that, and 1:36:43.920 --> 1:36:47.160 was able to, you know, support me enough in the 1:36:47.200 --> 1:36:51.360 ways you know that that I needed. I lived, you know, 1:36:51.400 --> 1:36:53.679 through a lot throughout my twenties when I wasn't doing 1:36:53.720 --> 1:36:56.800 well and working on music and striving and trying to 1:36:56.840 --> 1:36:58.599 make something of it. I was living in her, living 1:36:58.600 --> 1:37:03.080 with her, you know. So yeah, we were it was 1:37:03.200 --> 1:37:05.640 it was comfortable enough. We weren't we weren't rolling in it, 1:37:05.680 --> 1:37:07.280 but we were. It was comfortable. 1:37:08.040 --> 1:37:10.519 So how did you get back from Colorado to the 1:37:10.560 --> 1:37:17.880 East Coast. 1:37:14.600 --> 1:37:17.680 When I was out there? You know, it wasn't. I 1:37:17.720 --> 1:37:21.360 wasn't out there for too long before I started getting 1:37:21.760 --> 1:37:24.760 a fire under my ass again, and you know, I 1:37:24.800 --> 1:37:27.400 wanted to start projects. There were a couple opportunities back 1:37:27.439 --> 1:37:32.200 here that were popping up, and I started to just 1:37:33.280 --> 1:37:36.639 the school thing felt like a big, big unfinished business, 1:37:36.640 --> 1:37:41.200 big open end, and uh so, I, you know, I 1:37:41.240 --> 1:37:43.160 wanted to I wanted to go back, and it felt 1:37:43.160 --> 1:37:45.240 like the right thing to go finish what I what 1:37:45.360 --> 1:37:50.559 I started there. And uh yeah, things, you know, different 1:37:50.560 --> 1:37:54.559 things were popping up back east, not big opportunities, but enough. 1:37:54.600 --> 1:37:56.519 It was the only I did have no opportunities then, 1:37:56.560 --> 1:37:59.880 so it was the only thing. So after being out 1:37:59.880 --> 1:38:02.000 there there for like six months or something like that, 1:38:02.800 --> 1:38:05.920 things started popping up. So I started flying home for 1:38:06.000 --> 1:38:09.240 a weekend here and there to go do a gig 1:38:09.600 --> 1:38:12.720 or or do an opportunity and one of them. You know. 1:38:12.800 --> 1:38:15.000 During that time, it started playing with Trevor again and 1:38:15.040 --> 1:38:19.080 started you know, putting together what was the earliest formations 1:38:19.080 --> 1:38:23.519 of this of this band. But it actually wasn't the 1:38:23.800 --> 1:38:25.760 main thing I was focusing on at that point. But 1:38:27.240 --> 1:38:29.479 as time went on, it it just it became it 1:38:29.479 --> 1:38:30.320 became the main thing. 1:38:31.240 --> 1:38:33.839 So you went back to Berkeley. Did you finish at Berkeley? 1:38:33.880 --> 1:38:34.559 Did you graduate? 1:38:35.439 --> 1:38:35.760 I did? 1:38:35.840 --> 1:38:41.160 Yeah, Okay, in the hindsight, you're growing up when you 1:38:41.240 --> 1:38:44.200 go to Berkeley. There's a lot of changes there. But 1:38:45.120 --> 1:38:49.040 was Berkeley advantageous for your musical career. 1:38:51.640 --> 1:38:58.680 Uh, yes, yes, And I mean for sure in the 1:38:58.680 --> 1:39:01.760 way of learning, you know, I learned. I learned things there. 1:39:01.800 --> 1:39:04.720 I studied I was exposed to. You know. That was 1:39:04.760 --> 1:39:07.000 that was the more extreme, you know, like the kind 1:39:07.000 --> 1:39:12.600 of the full uh the full capacity of that experience 1:39:12.800 --> 1:39:14.880 of that I you know, talked about during the five 1:39:14.920 --> 1:39:19.599 week of being lost in a sea of people way 1:39:19.720 --> 1:39:23.240 way more talented than me and and uh, you know, 1:39:23.360 --> 1:39:26.559 way better at being competitive at music than me, you know. 1:39:28.200 --> 1:39:35.960 So uh it was, you know, I I did. I 1:39:36.000 --> 1:39:40.120 did lose myself there kind of both times. The first 1:39:40.160 --> 1:39:42.160 time I went it was I was coming out of 1:39:42.520 --> 1:39:44.640 the experience of all that loss, So it was it's 1:39:44.720 --> 1:39:47.080 kind of it's a pretty loaded thing. I can't really 1:39:47.120 --> 1:39:50.360 be objective about that at all because I was just 1:39:50.439 --> 1:39:52.479 like I was fried. I was in total shock and 1:39:52.840 --> 1:39:55.320 had no idea of what like where I was at 1:39:56.360 --> 1:39:59.200 and how how you know, how smoked I had gotten 1:39:59.240 --> 1:40:02.880 by all that. But when I went back, when I 1:40:02.920 --> 1:40:05.080 when I went back prior to that, I had I 1:40:05.120 --> 1:40:08.880 had really found after the that previous band that I 1:40:08.880 --> 1:40:13.519 started with Matt, after that band broke up, I really 1:40:13.520 --> 1:40:16.200 started writing again because when I, you know, when I 1:40:16.280 --> 1:40:18.040 when I moved out to Colorado, I was at I 1:40:18.080 --> 1:40:20.439 was working at a taco place, and I was at 1:40:20.479 --> 1:40:24.280 that point where I was really thinking about, you know, 1:40:25.880 --> 1:40:30.679 can I stop pursuing music? Can I stop thinking about 1:40:30.680 --> 1:40:32.200 this as like the thing that I need to do. 1:40:32.880 --> 1:40:35.760 That was the closest I've ever come to thinking about 1:40:35.800 --> 1:40:38.400 it in that way, because I was always just naive 1:40:38.400 --> 1:40:39.600 about it. I was like, yeah, there's this is what 1:40:39.640 --> 1:40:42.240 I'm doing. There's no there's no other way for me. 1:40:44.360 --> 1:40:46.519 But that was the closest I had come to that. 1:40:46.600 --> 1:40:49.320 I was working at this taco place and thinking about, 1:40:49.439 --> 1:40:52.160 you know, about giving up, I guess, and you know, 1:40:52.479 --> 1:40:55.400 giving up didn't look like I was never going to 1:40:55.439 --> 1:40:58.559 stop playing and working on you know, writing and things 1:40:58.600 --> 1:41:03.360 like that. But you know, the notion of not thinking 1:41:03.400 --> 1:41:08.439 about it as the career, you know, That's that was 1:41:08.479 --> 1:41:11.920 where I was at during that time. And I think 1:41:11.960 --> 1:41:16.559 that that being at that point where I was no 1:41:16.600 --> 1:41:19.679 longer trying to force something, I was no longer trying 1:41:19.720 --> 1:41:23.720 to make something out of, you know, I was I 1:41:23.760 --> 1:41:25.320 was kind of like at the end of my rope, 1:41:25.560 --> 1:41:27.040 so to speak. You know, I was I was lost, 1:41:27.080 --> 1:41:32.000 and and UH had had nothing going for me. And 1:41:32.040 --> 1:41:34.360 that was when I started actually writing again because it 1:41:34.400 --> 1:41:36.200 was it was for me, you know, it was it was, 1:41:36.800 --> 1:41:39.479 it was honest, and and it was because I just 1:41:39.680 --> 1:41:41.280 had to. It was like when you're left with nothing, 1:41:41.439 --> 1:41:44.599 then all of a sudden, you get you start getting 1:41:44.600 --> 1:41:48.479 the real stuff, you know, And that was what happened 1:41:48.520 --> 1:41:50.760 for me. So, you know, for for a year or two, 1:41:51.920 --> 1:41:54.719 maybe a little more, I was writing a lot and 1:41:54.840 --> 1:41:57.400 a lot of this stuff that was you know, the 1:41:57.400 --> 1:42:01.240 formation or the foundation for this band was written during 1:42:01.240 --> 1:42:04.360 that time, and other things that I have never really 1:42:04.720 --> 1:42:08.760 recorded or put out there. So there was there was 1:42:09.280 --> 1:42:11.560 like that, and that thread was continuing to grow. It 1:42:11.600 --> 1:42:13.400 was growing and growing. There was a lot of unfinished 1:42:13.439 --> 1:42:17.200 ideas from that from that time that I still have 1:42:17.320 --> 1:42:20.160 like strong feelings about and still intend to finish someday. 1:42:20.160 --> 1:42:24.640 But yeah, when I went back to Berkeley, that that 1:42:24.640 --> 1:42:28.680 that well dried up pretty quickly. You know. When I 1:42:28.680 --> 1:42:32.160 first started, there was so many ideas and so many 1:42:32.160 --> 1:42:34.759 things I was working on, and then within six months 1:42:34.800 --> 1:42:38.200 to a year, that flow had kind of stopped, and 1:42:38.200 --> 1:42:40.439 I was I was pretty deep in the course load. 1:42:40.600 --> 1:42:43.400 I mean, it was also we uh, we were starting 1:42:43.400 --> 1:42:45.840 this band. We recorded the first record, and I was, 1:42:45.880 --> 1:42:47.840 I was working on that a lot. We went up 1:42:47.880 --> 1:42:54.080 and did basics. We rented out a a cabin in 1:42:54.120 --> 1:42:57.160 New Hampshire and just brought all our own gear, and 1:42:57.479 --> 1:43:02.000 someone an engineer at a Look studio came and recorded with 1:43:02.080 --> 1:43:05.640 us and and and helped produce, and you know, we 1:43:05.680 --> 1:43:07.720 had we had basics and kind of sat on those 1:43:07.760 --> 1:43:11.000 for a while. And then, uh, during that time when 1:43:11.000 --> 1:43:13.000 I was in school, I was, I was, I didn't 1:43:13.000 --> 1:43:14.880 even have a place up in Boston, so I was driving. 1:43:14.960 --> 1:43:17.240 I was like commuting to Boston for a minute to 1:43:17.280 --> 1:43:22.760 go to classes from Connecticut, which was crazy, and so 1:43:22.800 --> 1:43:25.120 I was I was kind of on the weekends working 1:43:25.160 --> 1:43:28.160 to working on overdubs, working on you know, editing and 1:43:28.200 --> 1:43:30.880 you know doing d I Y finishing this record and 1:43:30.920 --> 1:43:36.320 then uh, you know midweek was driving to Boston and uh, 1:43:36.840 --> 1:43:39.240 crashing on people's couches. But if I had like, you know, 1:43:39.400 --> 1:43:41.479 three days of classes in a row, and you know, 1:43:41.520 --> 1:43:44.679 it was just too much to drive that many hours 1:43:45.200 --> 1:43:48.479 back and forth every day. So that was. Yeah, it 1:43:48.479 --> 1:43:50.040 was kind of kind of a crazy time, and the 1:43:50.080 --> 1:43:53.360 creative flow got got pretty burnt up during then, and 1:43:53.479 --> 1:43:54.760 it was the struggle to get it back. 1:44:02.280 --> 1:44:09.519 Okay, Berkeley is a music college. There are teachers. To 1:44:09.720 --> 1:44:14.840 what degree do they squeeze the creativity out of you? 1:44:15.400 --> 1:44:15.679 Listen? 1:44:15.720 --> 1:44:19.639 I had this in my own college experience. They have rules, 1:44:19.680 --> 1:44:22.160 they have the way you want to do it, which 1:44:22.200 --> 1:44:25.160 is actually forcing you into a traw through a tunnel 1:44:25.200 --> 1:44:28.519 that is against you. To what degree do you say, no, 1:44:28.680 --> 1:44:31.200 that's not for me. I need to explore my own way, 1:44:31.240 --> 1:44:32.960 which is not how they want me to do it. 1:44:36.320 --> 1:44:37.920 I think in my experience there was a there was 1:44:38.000 --> 1:44:40.240 kind of a bit of a bunch of different things. 1:44:40.240 --> 1:44:42.599 Some people really cared, and some people really nurtured, and 1:44:42.640 --> 1:44:49.800 some people really engaged. Some people were just uh, you know, 1:44:50.280 --> 1:44:53.880 I think you know, some people were incredible musicians that 1:44:54.640 --> 1:44:56.960 you know, maybe their their career didn't go the way 1:44:57.000 --> 1:44:59.400 they wanted it to, and they it's a really it's 1:44:59.400 --> 1:45:01.840 a really great teaching gig. But they weren't they're not 1:45:02.000 --> 1:45:05.720 like passionate about teaching a little bit of that thing 1:45:05.800 --> 1:45:08.920 of like I'm just really good at this, Like I this, 1:45:09.200 --> 1:45:12.080 you know, I worked hard and I'm I'm amazing at 1:45:12.080 --> 1:45:14.559 what I do and if you can't do it, then 1:45:14.640 --> 1:45:16.240 like I don't know that kind of just sucks for you. 1:45:18.439 --> 1:45:20.519 And you know some people who were doing it because 1:45:20.520 --> 1:45:23.400 it was it was a good job, and then you 1:45:23.400 --> 1:45:26.120 know some people who were engaged and passionate about it, 1:45:26.160 --> 1:45:31.320 but more entrenched in some rule set. You know. I 1:45:31.640 --> 1:45:35.040 had that probably that that experienced most. I studied jazz 1:45:35.080 --> 1:45:39.800 performance and classical composition and studying like, I wanted to 1:45:39.880 --> 1:45:44.560 learn counterpoint. I wanted to learn what, you know, the wheels, 1:45:44.680 --> 1:45:47.080 like what what made the wheels turn in classical music 1:45:47.479 --> 1:45:50.320 on some levels, which is obviously an incredibly deep rabbit 1:45:50.320 --> 1:45:53.800 hole and it's like a completely different world. But I 1:45:53.800 --> 1:45:56.679 started getting into that, and uh, you know that that's 1:45:56.720 --> 1:45:59.640 where the rule set is really in place. You know, 1:45:59.680 --> 1:46:04.639 that's there's there's like that that's like that's that's there's 1:46:04.640 --> 1:46:07.960 a lot of rules there. And I wasn't. I like, 1:46:08.160 --> 1:46:10.719 got really bad grades in some of those classes because 1:46:10.760 --> 1:46:13.720 I was, you know, breaking the rules. And I was like, 1:46:13.760 --> 1:46:15.880 but like, this is you know, this is an idea, 1:46:15.920 --> 1:46:18.479 this is this is my that is the four part 1:46:18.479 --> 1:46:20.080 harmony thing that I wrote. He's like, yeah, but it's 1:46:20.120 --> 1:46:22.400 just wrong, It's all right, And he was probably right 1:46:22.439 --> 1:46:24.240 on some on some degree. You know, it wasn't Maybe 1:46:24.240 --> 1:46:27.320 it wasn't that great, but you know, so there there's 1:46:27.360 --> 1:46:29.639 a bit of that. But you know they're the thing. 1:46:30.000 --> 1:46:34.080 The thing about all that I think the best the 1:46:34.120 --> 1:46:37.960 best musicians, Well this you can't. You can't say that 1:46:38.040 --> 1:46:40.200 because there's you know, West, here's West Montgomery who didn't, 1:46:40.200 --> 1:46:42.920 as I understand it, didn't know anything about music theory 1:46:43.000 --> 1:46:44.920 or anything like that. And was you know, wrote the 1:46:44.960 --> 1:46:48.160 book on a whole a whole way of approach to 1:46:48.200 --> 1:46:52.759 playing there. So you can't make these generalizations. But seemingly 1:46:52.840 --> 1:46:55.720 a lot of people, you know that. The thing is, 1:46:55.720 --> 1:46:58.960 like you you have to learn the rules so that 1:46:59.000 --> 1:47:01.200 you break them. You know, when when you break them, 1:47:01.240 --> 1:47:06.439 you you ah have a much deeper understanding of why 1:47:06.479 --> 1:47:11.760 you're breaking them, you know. So yeah, no, one way. 1:47:12.120 --> 1:47:18.000 Okay, you talked about questioning your future in music in Colorado? 1:47:18.640 --> 1:47:23.000 How many times have you contemplated giving up the music gig? 1:47:23.600 --> 1:47:25.400 And when was the last time you did it. 1:47:28.080 --> 1:47:30.840 In a real way? That kind of feels like the 1:47:30.840 --> 1:47:35.720 only time that that was the closest I've gotten to it. 1:47:35.760 --> 1:47:41.040 And even then it wasn't It wasn't that, you know, 1:47:41.080 --> 1:47:42.880 I didn't get too far down. It was like I 1:47:42.920 --> 1:47:45.120 was like scratching at the idea of like, am I 1:47:45.120 --> 1:47:47.360 gonna hang this up? This is crazy? You know, there's 1:47:47.400 --> 1:47:49.320 got nothing going on. I'm down and out. I feel 1:47:49.400 --> 1:47:51.360 like I feel like crap every day, Like I don't know, 1:47:51.479 --> 1:47:57.799 I don't know. But you know, since then, it really 1:47:58.000 --> 1:48:03.320 I was. I was too stubborn to go there for 1:48:03.360 --> 1:48:04.200 the most part. 1:48:04.520 --> 1:48:08.400 Okay, so you finish up at Berkeley, you have a 1:48:08.439 --> 1:48:12.200 band that is the beginnings of Goose. What is the 1:48:12.240 --> 1:48:16.960 first point of positive reinforcement? Will you say, wait a second, 1:48:17.360 --> 1:48:20.599 you know we're getting a good reaction. This might be something. 1:48:23.680 --> 1:48:29.200 It definitely wasn't for a while. I graduated. I finished 1:48:29.240 --> 1:48:32.600 up school in twenty sixteen, and then in twenty seventeen 1:48:33.040 --> 1:48:35.760 was when we got a booking agent and started just 1:48:35.960 --> 1:48:38.280 you know that that helped because you know, sometimes bands 1:48:38.320 --> 1:48:40.920 early in their time, someone in the band is like 1:48:40.960 --> 1:48:44.360 has a knack for making connections like that and booking gigs, 1:48:44.640 --> 1:48:47.360 and none of us had that. You know, it was 1:48:47.479 --> 1:48:50.439 it was hard. We played bars locally here and stuff, 1:48:50.439 --> 1:48:52.439 but like booking gigs and starting to build a little 1:48:52.479 --> 1:48:55.680 thing like that, we just weren't get at it. So 1:48:55.720 --> 1:48:57.800 when we got a booking agent. We were like, you know, 1:48:57.920 --> 1:49:01.479 let's go hit, let's hit the wheels, and and uh, 1:49:01.760 --> 1:49:03.080 just get us out there. We want to play, we 1:49:03.120 --> 1:49:04.720 want to play a million gigs, we want to tour. 1:49:05.280 --> 1:49:08.280 And he was, you know, he was, he was great, 1:49:08.360 --> 1:49:10.680 he was he was like, you kind of don't want 1:49:10.720 --> 1:49:11.880 to do that, and we were like, yeah, we do. 1:49:12.120 --> 1:49:13.960 He's like, all right, if you say so. And he 1:49:13.960 --> 1:49:16.880 threw us out there and we, uh. The tour. The 1:49:16.920 --> 1:49:20.240 tour that year has been commonly referred to as the 1:49:20.439 --> 1:49:22.280 Thrown to the Wolves tour because he was like, I'm 1:49:22.280 --> 1:49:23.920 gonna throw you to the wolves, and we're like, let's go. 1:49:24.360 --> 1:49:26.559 And he did, and we were thrown to the wolves 1:49:26.600 --> 1:49:28.960 and we were like, oh, got it. Okay, we need 1:49:29.000 --> 1:49:31.800 to we need to we need to rethink this whole thing. 1:49:33.000 --> 1:49:34.840 He threw you to the wolves. What did that look like? 1:49:36.680 --> 1:49:40.920 Uh, you know, touring in a in a in a 1:49:40.960 --> 1:49:44.719 twelve passenger van with no a C in the South 1:49:45.560 --> 1:49:49.240 in the middle of the summer, sleeping in our trailer 1:49:49.439 --> 1:49:52.960 and Walmart parking lots and just playing terrible gig after 1:49:53.040 --> 1:50:00.160 terrible gig, like hemorrhaging money, you know, the whole the 1:50:00.200 --> 1:50:02.760 whole thing you know, and uh, not only that, but 1:50:02.840 --> 1:50:06.439 the band dynamic at that point was was pretty it 1:50:06.479 --> 1:50:09.519 was pretty bad. It was just like it wasn't we 1:50:09.520 --> 1:50:13.080 weren't connected and we weren't doing it for the same 1:50:13.120 --> 1:50:17.840 reasons everyone in the band. So we just had a 1:50:17.840 --> 1:50:20.160 lot to learn at that point, and it was it 1:50:20.200 --> 1:50:23.000 was necessary because of that, you know, just getting our 1:50:23.040 --> 1:50:26.280 asses kicked like that, and Trevor, Trevor and I there 1:50:26.280 --> 1:50:28.400 were many nights when we were out there just like 1:50:28.560 --> 1:50:31.040 what how do people do this? What is like? This 1:50:31.120 --> 1:50:34.160 is crazy? How to like where do we go? Like 1:50:34.200 --> 1:50:37.040 how do what is? What is what is this? What 1:50:37.080 --> 1:50:39.400 the what the fuck are we doing? And then you know, 1:50:39.720 --> 1:50:40.519 we'll just to. 1:50:40.479 --> 1:50:42.400 Be clear, a lot of that, so you're playing for 1:50:42.720 --> 1:50:45.160 little to know money to a fewer no people who 1:50:45.160 --> 1:50:46.680 weren't interested anyway. 1:50:47.479 --> 1:50:51.040 Mm hmm, one hundred percent. Yeah, a lot of that. 1:50:51.680 --> 1:50:54.400 You know, there's if we got if there was like 1:50:54.439 --> 1:50:59.320 a you know, there was a some place in South 1:50:59.320 --> 1:51:02.719 Carolina where we'd go and play on like the tiki tiaki, 1:51:02.960 --> 1:51:05.160 like it was like a Helton resort or something like that. 1:51:05.280 --> 1:51:07.360 We'd go and like play on the tiki porch. We'd 1:51:07.360 --> 1:51:09.840 play like three or four sets and got five hundred bucks, 1:51:09.880 --> 1:51:11.880 and we were like, this is this is a this 1:51:11.920 --> 1:51:13.400 is great, you know, and we did not even give 1:51:13.439 --> 1:51:15.439 us a room, but we got five hundred bucks and 1:51:15.520 --> 1:51:20.320 covered gas for you know, however many shows. So yeah, no, 1:51:20.400 --> 1:51:23.200 it was it was weird. There was there was very 1:51:23.280 --> 1:51:25.600 there was to your question, your original question. There was 1:51:25.680 --> 1:51:30.599 nothing in that time, you know, pointing towards any hope 1:51:30.720 --> 1:51:34.040 or success there. But it didn't. It was like it was, 1:51:34.560 --> 1:51:36.559 I guess in retrospect it was crazy, but like I 1:51:36.600 --> 1:51:37.960 was that stubborn and they were like, no, we just 1:51:37.960 --> 1:51:40.320 got to just keep going, keep trying. There's got to 1:51:40.360 --> 1:51:44.960 be a way, you know. So you know, you know, 1:51:45.000 --> 1:51:50.080 we made we made changes and things evolved, and uh, 1:51:50.560 --> 1:51:53.720 you know kind of found found our way to a 1:51:53.800 --> 1:51:56.559 better dynamic within the band at least, you know, like 1:51:56.600 --> 1:51:58.720 a better one, a more functional one where we were 1:51:58.760 --> 1:52:01.920 more connected and and uh, you know, when Peter joined 1:52:01.960 --> 1:52:05.839 the band, he understood more of you know, he understood 1:52:05.880 --> 1:52:07.040 what we were, what we were trying to do, and 1:52:07.400 --> 1:52:10.120 he was coming from the same place like the he had. 1:52:10.200 --> 1:52:12.720 He was coming from that that like you know, yeah, 1:52:12.720 --> 1:52:15.240 I play music with my friends and my parents' basement 1:52:15.320 --> 1:52:18.720 because that's because that's really fun and that's like what 1:52:18.720 --> 1:52:22.080 we're trying to do, and it's just a it was 1:52:22.120 --> 1:52:24.760 like a it was more of more of more of 1:52:24.800 --> 1:52:29.760 that energy that of the original why you know what 1:52:29.800 --> 1:52:33.160 I mean, why why you do it? Instead of like 1:52:33.840 --> 1:52:35.400 some other energy of like I want to be on 1:52:35.439 --> 1:52:37.320 stage in front of lots of people and like in 1:52:37.360 --> 1:52:40.880 the industry and getting good looks and all the things 1:52:40.920 --> 1:52:43.599 that come with that's it, you know, those things are 1:52:43.920 --> 1:52:46.320 there's there's cool parts to all of that, but it's 1:52:46.600 --> 1:52:49.880 I don't know, not it's not what what I'm in 1:52:49.920 --> 1:52:53.080 it for, you know. And as time goes on and 1:52:53.360 --> 1:52:56.280 just become less and less interested in that side of 1:52:56.320 --> 1:52:58.519 things and just want to, you know, be more and 1:52:58.560 --> 1:53:03.519 more connected to the core of of the why of 1:53:03.560 --> 1:53:06.599 it all and uh okay experience. 1:53:06.680 --> 1:53:10.320 So they throw you into the Wolves, you reset when 1:53:10.360 --> 1:53:12.400 you start to work again. What does it look like? 1:53:14.360 --> 1:53:16.680 Uh well, we never really stopped. It was kind of 1:53:16.720 --> 1:53:19.280 like from that point for Forward is it was really 1:53:19.280 --> 1:53:21.920 trial by fire. We there was no there was no 1:53:22.120 --> 1:53:25.160 like there was one long tour which was a thrown 1:53:25.200 --> 1:53:27.080 to the Wolf's tour, but at large we were playing 1:53:27.120 --> 1:53:28.479 we were kind of doing a lot of Weekend Warrior 1:53:28.520 --> 1:53:32.320 stuff and once we started, we we haven't really stopped. 1:53:33.160 --> 1:53:37.719 Okay, but you're playing original material to people who really 1:53:37.800 --> 1:53:40.759 don't know who you are. How does that work? 1:53:44.160 --> 1:53:46.960 Well, you know, we we played covers too. Sometimes that helps, 1:53:47.080 --> 1:53:50.439 you know, are doing an interpretation of a cover that 1:53:50.479 --> 1:53:52.400 someone knows. And you know, in those days, it was 1:53:53.080 --> 1:53:55.880 it was it was, you know, that thing could be helpful, 1:53:56.160 --> 1:53:58.840 but I don't know, you know, if we got an 1:53:58.880 --> 1:54:01.280 opening gig or something like some some of those were 1:54:01.520 --> 1:54:05.840 some of those were helpful. You know. Really a turning 1:54:05.880 --> 1:54:08.000 point was the beginning of twenty eighteen. That was in 1:54:08.040 --> 1:54:10.000 my you know, for all intents and purposes, that was 1:54:10.000 --> 1:54:12.280 the turning point in terms of us kind of getting 1:54:12.320 --> 1:54:14.160 our getting our act together. Peter joined the band, and 1:54:15.040 --> 1:54:19.439 he was he was kind of, you know, a driving 1:54:19.479 --> 1:54:21.559 force in the band that he was in prior to that, 1:54:21.720 --> 1:54:25.479 and him and I just started working together a lot. 1:54:25.600 --> 1:54:28.880 And prior to that, I hadn't really had that like 1:54:28.960 --> 1:54:31.320 someone on the front lines in that in that same 1:54:31.360 --> 1:54:34.480 way you know, Trevor and I were working on things 1:54:34.520 --> 1:54:38.880 all the time. But yeah, it did. Peter kind of 1:54:39.160 --> 1:54:44.760 had this this like workhorse vibe and kind of day 1:54:44.800 --> 1:54:48.880 to day which is like was you know, was making 1:54:48.880 --> 1:54:52.920 sure all the recordings got the soundboard recordings, were We're 1:54:52.920 --> 1:54:56.360 getting getting done, and he started getting into video. He 1:54:56.880 --> 1:54:59.960 learned how to edit video and and really really quickly 1:55:00.080 --> 1:55:04.040 and well so and him and I just were on 1:55:04.080 --> 1:55:07.920 the same wavelength of like thinking about creating a world really, 1:55:07.960 --> 1:55:10.920 you know, because it ties into like the branding and 1:55:11.000 --> 1:55:13.640 all of that, but really it's that the branding is 1:55:13.840 --> 1:55:15.640 in my mind, has always been just a vehicle to 1:55:15.880 --> 1:55:20.840 create a feeling. And when he first joined the band, 1:55:20.840 --> 1:55:23.640 we had already had this opportunity to go open for 1:55:23.720 --> 1:55:27.080 this band, Stafford, who at that time was like on fire, 1:55:27.200 --> 1:55:30.560 like really they were having this big moment crushing and 1:55:30.640 --> 1:55:35.680 their tour was so intense and they were playing maybe 1:55:35.920 --> 1:55:37.880 you know, it was like five hundred to fifteen hundred 1:55:37.880 --> 1:55:40.840 cap venues, which felt and they were like full, all 1:55:40.880 --> 1:55:44.400 of them were slammed, which was way bigger than anything 1:55:44.440 --> 1:55:46.000 that we had done to that point, and it felt 1:55:46.080 --> 1:55:48.640 the energy around it was so is so intense, and 1:55:48.680 --> 1:55:50.480 we were opening for them. We opened them for them 1:55:50.960 --> 1:55:53.880 for seven shows in January of twenty eighteen, right when 1:55:53.920 --> 1:55:56.280 Peter joined the band, he barely played keyboards. 1:55:55.840 --> 1:55:56.040 It was. 1:55:57.520 --> 1:56:00.720 You know, very very trial by fire. But that experience 1:56:01.040 --> 1:56:03.480 sort of set the tone for for for us and 1:56:03.520 --> 1:56:05.280 it was kind of like, okay, we I think we 1:56:05.360 --> 1:56:09.080 understand like what we need to do. That that kicked 1:56:09.120 --> 1:56:12.680 us into gear in terms of building it just informing 1:56:12.720 --> 1:56:15.400 the world that we wanted to start building. It was 1:56:15.440 --> 1:56:18.600 an extremely valuable experience and we started doing that. You know, 1:56:18.640 --> 1:56:20.360 we started working on the website and like, what is 1:56:20.440 --> 1:56:22.680 what kind of feeling does the website have, you know 1:56:22.720 --> 1:56:24.400 when you when you go on there, does it feel 1:56:24.760 --> 1:56:27.200 like some kind of immersive thing? You know? And then 1:56:28.120 --> 1:56:32.600 filling out our catalog and filling out you know, show recordings, 1:56:32.640 --> 1:56:35.000 soundboard recordings for people to listen to, videos for people 1:56:35.040 --> 1:56:37.600 to watch on YouTube, which ended up being really really 1:56:37.640 --> 1:56:41.200 the thing that in you know, outside of the music 1:56:41.360 --> 1:56:45.600 and all of the chemistry and all the things we 1:56:45.600 --> 1:56:48.800 were working on in that regard the the building the 1:56:48.880 --> 1:56:53.600 content world online was was really what it was. It 1:56:53.640 --> 1:56:57.200 was just an extremely necessary thing for the way that 1:56:57.800 --> 1:57:03.200 we got to the place that we got to. So yeah, 1:57:03.240 --> 1:57:05.440 that was that was really that was really the thing. 1:57:05.600 --> 1:57:08.240 And you know that that experience we got a taste 1:57:08.240 --> 1:57:10.240 of that energy of like people coming to shows and 1:57:10.520 --> 1:57:16.800 rapidly you know, and consuming and like looking for looking 1:57:16.840 --> 1:57:21.120 for something to be you know, experienced or found on stage, 1:57:21.160 --> 1:57:24.600 something unique and something you know, happening in real time 1:57:24.640 --> 1:57:28.120 and and and real you know, and like later that 1:57:28.240 --> 1:57:31.760 year there was a there was I think we got 1:57:31.800 --> 1:57:35.320 our our first taste in our own respect of a 1:57:35.440 --> 1:57:38.040 very very long winded answer your question, I apologize for that, 1:57:38.440 --> 1:57:41.680 but our first taste of that in our own, you know, 1:57:42.120 --> 1:57:46.320 respective world was a few months after that, we did 1:57:46.320 --> 1:57:49.600 a tour out to Colorado and we played, uh, you know, 1:57:49.760 --> 1:57:54.080 same same deal, status quo, ton of you know, shady 1:57:54.120 --> 1:57:57.440 gigs that no one came to, no one cared about us, 1:57:57.800 --> 1:58:02.280 but we had We had this one gig booked on 1:58:02.360 --> 1:58:04.520 the way out to Colorado, and then two weeks later, 1:58:04.560 --> 1:58:07.600 on the way back from Colorado in Covington, Kentucky, and 1:58:08.360 --> 1:58:12.120 this one this one guy who had like there was 1:58:12.120 --> 1:58:14.320 a crew of friends that lived there, but they're really 1:58:14.520 --> 1:58:16.640 they lived in Cincinnati, but they went to shows in Covington, 1:58:16.720 --> 1:58:20.440 Kentucky's right over the right over the river. And this 1:58:20.480 --> 1:58:22.080 one guy listened to our saw we were on the 1:58:22.080 --> 1:58:25.800 schedule this at this club, the Octave in Covington and 1:58:26.280 --> 1:58:28.400 listened to it, like, found our album, listen to it, 1:58:28.720 --> 1:58:30.880 liked it, spread it around to his friends. They all 1:58:30.920 --> 1:58:33.280 listened to it. They learned some of the songs, and 1:58:33.680 --> 1:58:36.560 you know, maybe there was ten twelve of these people, 1:58:37.160 --> 1:58:40.120 of these kids that came to this show totally unexpectedly, 1:58:40.160 --> 1:58:43.520 and you know, we just played expecting another you know, 1:58:43.760 --> 1:58:47.320 shit gig on a Tuesday night in Covington, Kentucky where 1:58:47.320 --> 1:58:50.480 no one was there, and here are these twelve kids 1:58:50.480 --> 1:58:52.440 who like know the lyrics to some of our songs 1:58:52.480 --> 1:58:55.480 and are just throwing there brings so much energy, like 1:58:55.520 --> 1:58:57.560 they're having a great time, and it's just kind of 1:58:57.640 --> 1:58:59.640 us in them. It was like this really intimate thing 1:59:00.200 --> 1:59:04.360 and for us that was like that was amazing. So 1:59:05.040 --> 1:59:10.920 we you know, fortunately, uh we like we were coming 1:59:10.960 --> 1:59:13.400 back to the same place two weeks later, and they, 1:59:13.680 --> 1:59:15.560 I guess the word spread. They they talked to more 1:59:15.600 --> 1:59:18.560 people around town, the word spread more, and we came 1:59:18.600 --> 1:59:20.880 back and there were like one hundred people there and 1:59:20.920 --> 1:59:23.280 the energy was awesome and we you know, we threw 1:59:23.320 --> 1:59:25.840 down and and it was it was kind of this like, 1:59:25.960 --> 1:59:29.280 oh wow, one hundred people came to actually to kind 1:59:29.280 --> 1:59:33.600 of to see us, and then I think three months 1:59:33.640 --> 1:59:35.800 later there or four months later that year, we went 1:59:35.840 --> 1:59:37.640 back in June and did two nights at that club 1:59:37.960 --> 1:59:41.240 and it was sort of sold out, and we felt 1:59:41.240 --> 1:59:43.040 like we were on top of the world doing two 1:59:43.120 --> 1:59:46.960 nights of this this this little club, and it was 1:59:47.000 --> 1:59:50.280 it was it was like our first taste of of 1:59:50.280 --> 1:59:53.760 of that kind of thing at all, you know. And 1:59:53.800 --> 1:59:57.040 then we kept touring and playing other places and we're 1:59:57.080 --> 1:59:59.960 you know, in other areas for all intents and purposes, 2:00:00.080 --> 2:00:04.120 went back to playing shit gigs for no one. But then, 2:00:04.400 --> 2:00:06.879 you know, throughout that year in the early twenty nineteen, 2:00:06.960 --> 2:00:10.920 gradually saw you know, we sold like sold one hundred 2:00:10.920 --> 2:00:14.080 tickets in Buffalo, you know at the door, and like 2:00:14.160 --> 2:00:16.000 that was a huge win for us. We were like, oh, 2:00:16.080 --> 2:00:19.000 all right, great, another one, another place where people know 2:00:19.040 --> 2:00:20.800 who we are and are coming like some people are 2:00:20.800 --> 2:00:23.960 coming to a show. That was a big deal because 2:00:24.000 --> 2:00:26.160 it wasn't there was no there was no label, there 2:00:26.200 --> 2:00:28.800 was no like our music wasn't being consumed in that 2:00:28.840 --> 2:00:31.200 way at all. It was it was all just our 2:00:31.200 --> 2:00:34.760 only hope was the grassroots thing, you know, at least 2:00:35.080 --> 2:00:38.640 as far as we were aware. So then you know, 2:00:38.920 --> 2:00:43.800 gradually we got we got more some more festival stuff, 2:00:44.800 --> 2:00:48.360 more opening gigs for you know, opening for other bands 2:00:48.360 --> 2:00:51.120 like Pigeons playing ping pong and bands like that, and 2:00:52.040 --> 2:00:55.600 you know, throughout twenty eight the latter end of eighteen 2:00:55.640 --> 2:00:58.640 and into twenty twenty nineteen, first half of twenty nineteen, 2:00:59.120 --> 2:01:01.920 they felt like the pressure, the pressure points were just 2:01:01.920 --> 2:01:05.120 getting hit more and more. You know, we were just 2:01:05.160 --> 2:01:07.480 in the flow with it and doing doing these things 2:01:07.520 --> 2:01:12.200 and could feel could feel the needle moving a little bit, 2:01:12.320 --> 2:01:15.240 but not not crazy substantial. After that, you know, the 2:01:15.240 --> 2:01:18.120 experience in Covington and stuff, it was, you know, it 2:01:18.160 --> 2:01:21.160 was a kind of us flow flow role for the 2:01:21.160 --> 2:01:25.240 most part. And then you know that summer, the real 2:01:25.280 --> 2:01:28.800 turning point was the Peach Peach Festival in twenty nineteen. 2:01:29.480 --> 2:01:30.920 There was a lot of hype around the set. We 2:01:30.960 --> 2:01:32.920 played the set, and you know, we kind of gotten 2:01:32.960 --> 2:01:35.040 used to like playing these festival sets, which like back 2:01:35.080 --> 2:01:36.840 in the day, you know, I had this like really 2:01:36.920 --> 2:01:40.840 naive mentality around it, like, oh, we'll play this festival 2:01:40.880 --> 2:01:42.400 set and like it's really things are going to really 2:01:42.480 --> 2:01:44.280 change after that, like all of a sudden, people who 2:01:44.480 --> 2:01:46.160 will know who we are, will come to shows and stuff, 2:01:46.160 --> 2:01:47.840 and I got I had gotten so used to that 2:01:47.960 --> 2:01:49.800 not being the case, you know, thinking that the needle 2:01:49.880 --> 2:01:51.360 was going to move, and then it didn't. So we 2:01:51.400 --> 2:01:52.760 played that gig and there was hype around and I 2:01:52.840 --> 2:01:55.120 was like, oh, that's cool. A lot of people were there, 2:01:55.280 --> 2:01:58.920 you know, it was pretty packed. And then we put 2:01:58.920 --> 2:02:02.320 out the video from that set like really quickly after it, 2:02:02.400 --> 2:02:04.240 as we kind of had gotten used to doing at 2:02:04.240 --> 2:02:09.320 that point, and I didn't think that much like it was, 2:02:09.360 --> 2:02:10.480 you know, it was a big moment. It felt like 2:02:10.520 --> 2:02:11.960 a lot of hype. It was pretty stressed about it, 2:02:12.040 --> 2:02:13.360 but then we just did it and I didn't think 2:02:13.360 --> 2:02:17.360 too much of it, and it didn't realize, you know, 2:02:17.440 --> 2:02:18.840 that was that was going to be as much of 2:02:18.840 --> 2:02:21.880 a catalyst as it was, or as much of a 2:02:21.920 --> 2:02:24.480 breaking point as it was. You know. The video kind 2:02:24.480 --> 2:02:27.760 of started getting shared a lot online and and then 2:02:27.920 --> 2:02:30.480 there was this sort of viral thing. I guess that 2:02:30.600 --> 2:02:34.640 happened with like fish Twitter. Everyone was like doing meme, 2:02:35.040 --> 2:02:38.200 like joking with sending all these memes around about goose jokes, 2:02:38.240 --> 2:02:40.600 and people thought it was a joke but then ended 2:02:40.680 --> 2:02:43.000 up going and checking out the band, So it kind 2:02:43.000 --> 2:02:44.840 of just h it kind of just erupted by there. 2:02:44.840 --> 2:02:47.160 And then by the by that fall, the fall tour 2:02:47.320 --> 2:02:49.800 was was pretty much totally sold out all the little 2:02:49.800 --> 2:02:52.240 clubs we had booked and stuff like that. People were 2:02:52.280 --> 2:02:55.400 just buying tickets and then it kind of just kind 2:02:55.400 --> 2:02:56.240 of just grew from there. 2:02:56.960 --> 2:03:00.560 So then COVID hits. So what do you do for COVID? 2:03:04.200 --> 2:03:07.320 We I mean, it was I feel that in a 2:03:07.320 --> 2:03:11.320 lot of ways, you know, for us, it was it 2:03:11.360 --> 2:03:15.120 was really helpful to to for things to slow down, 2:03:15.200 --> 2:03:18.200 to stop at that time because the schedule we had 2:03:18.240 --> 2:03:21.480 planned for that year was going to tear at least personally, 2:03:21.480 --> 2:03:23.120 I don't know, it was gonna tear me up, like 2:03:23.120 --> 2:03:25.120 it was. It was. It was crazy that summer. The 2:03:25.440 --> 2:03:28.200 schedule we had plotted for that summer, it was shooting 2:03:28.240 --> 2:03:30.720 around to three festivals every weekend all around the country. 2:03:30.720 --> 2:03:33.880 It was just like, you know, you can't, you can't 2:03:33.880 --> 2:03:38.440 do well in the under those circumstances. Especially, I mean 2:03:38.480 --> 2:03:41.480 I for sure can't, and maybe other people can't, but 2:03:41.560 --> 2:03:46.520 like that, I just not a recipe for for doing 2:03:46.560 --> 2:03:50.840 your best work, you know, So we slowed down, well, 2:03:51.120 --> 2:03:54.320 you know, the world slowed down. We because of the 2:03:54.320 --> 2:03:57.640 momentum we had at that point, we just kind of 2:03:57.640 --> 2:04:01.560 instinctively we didn't stop working, but the fact of you know, 2:04:01.880 --> 2:04:04.240 the nature of just sleeping at home for the bulk 2:04:04.280 --> 2:04:06.160 of that year and being in one place and going 2:04:06.160 --> 2:04:09.480 for walks in the woods every day in conjunction with 2:04:09.560 --> 2:04:11.240 the things we were working on. We finished a record 2:04:11.320 --> 2:04:13.440 we were that was taking us forever to work on. 2:04:14.360 --> 2:04:16.200 I was doing all the editing myself, and it was 2:04:16.280 --> 2:04:19.520 I was just laboring over it way more than I 2:04:19.560 --> 2:04:23.080 should have. And you know, that gave us the opportunity 2:04:23.080 --> 2:04:25.800 to finally finish that thing, which was you know, important 2:04:25.800 --> 2:04:30.600 for us. And you know, we were just cranking out videos, 2:04:30.600 --> 2:04:32.800 live streams and working on that and trying to make 2:04:33.520 --> 2:04:37.720 make those things interesting and and different. You know, there's 2:04:38.520 --> 2:04:41.160 we did all these live streams in the spring of 2:04:41.200 --> 2:04:44.360 that year and had gotten like a really good response 2:04:44.480 --> 2:04:46.240 from a lot of them. The way we were doing them, 2:04:46.320 --> 2:04:48.760 it felt kind of alive. We had people on on 2:04:48.840 --> 2:04:51.000 like handicams and moving and it was kind of dynamic, 2:04:51.040 --> 2:04:54.120 and it felt felt interesting, and you know, we put 2:04:54.160 --> 2:04:55.920 a lot of energy into that and trying to make 2:04:55.920 --> 2:04:59.560 those as cool as we could, and then summer rolled around, 2:04:59.720 --> 2:05:03.120 and you know, our managers were like, all right, we're 2:05:03.120 --> 2:05:07.200 gonna everyone's doing tours, virtual tours, and you know that 2:05:07.400 --> 2:05:11.080 sounded really like boring to me. It was just kind 2:05:11.080 --> 2:05:14.200 of like, we're we're all just gonna keep doing what 2:05:14.240 --> 2:05:16.240 we're doing. Just just do more and more videos of 2:05:16.320 --> 2:05:18.600 us playing kind of the same mute, same songs in 2:05:18.640 --> 2:05:20.680 the same room over and over again. That you know, 2:05:20.760 --> 2:05:23.800 what makes touring. You know, you're you're in different places, 2:05:23.840 --> 2:05:26.280 playing to different people, so it it you know, it 2:05:26.280 --> 2:05:28.720 doesn't get as it doesn't get as redundant because of that. 2:05:28.880 --> 2:05:31.600 So it just felt like like a like a really 2:05:31.640 --> 2:05:34.920 redundant thing. So that that kind of triggered us to 2:05:34.920 --> 2:05:36.480 to think to try to think about it in a 2:05:36.480 --> 2:05:40.680 different way and make it compelling and add some element 2:05:40.760 --> 2:05:45.000 to it that was more interactive and uh and more engaging, 2:05:45.040 --> 2:05:49.400 I guess, and and and more and more immersive. So we, uh, 2:05:49.600 --> 2:05:51.320 you know, we did this bingo tour thing, which is 2:05:51.480 --> 2:05:54.200 which is you know, turned the entire how many of 2:05:54.200 --> 2:05:56.520 every many shows it was into a bingo game and 2:05:56.560 --> 2:06:00.000 everyone had cards and it was it was we they functional. 2:06:00.000 --> 2:06:02.120 We had our own TV channel for like two weeks, 2:06:02.560 --> 2:06:05.880 which we really ran with. We had we built up 2:06:05.920 --> 2:06:08.320 all different kinds of kinds of content. We had people 2:06:08.840 --> 2:06:12.000 doing videos walking them through like whatever. If someone had 2:06:12.200 --> 2:06:14.800 in our community here had a farm in the backyard, 2:06:15.000 --> 2:06:16.480 you know, we did a video of them walking through 2:06:16.520 --> 2:06:20.200 the farm. Or we did like yoga videos or or 2:06:20.480 --> 2:06:22.360 cooking classes and all kinds of stuff. We were just 2:06:22.440 --> 2:06:25.240 cranking content through this thing, and we were all just 2:06:25.360 --> 2:06:27.600 in this area and being really creative and coming up 2:06:27.640 --> 2:06:29.160 with ideas and having a lot of fun. And it 2:06:29.160 --> 2:06:32.640 was a really really special time. So I think they're 2:06:32.760 --> 2:06:36.400 doing all these things. It was a special like it 2:06:36.400 --> 2:06:39.080 was a special time, a special opportunity, I guess because 2:06:39.160 --> 2:06:43.520 the world had just you know, stopped, everyone had slowed down. 2:06:43.520 --> 2:06:46.960 And you know, if that happened now, we probably would 2:06:47.200 --> 2:06:49.960 use it as a opportunity. I mean maybe to do 2:06:50.000 --> 2:06:51.640 the same I don't know, but but you know it 2:06:51.640 --> 2:06:53.680 would it would be at a very different point because 2:06:53.680 --> 2:06:54.880 it would be like, all right, I'm going to slow 2:06:54.920 --> 2:06:57.120 down and like write, I'm going to write a lot. 2:06:57.200 --> 2:06:58.720 And I think probably a lot of people did that, 2:06:59.040 --> 2:07:00.720 but for where we were, it was like we were 2:07:01.280 --> 2:07:03.520 we were in a place to be just turning and burning, 2:07:03.520 --> 2:07:06.840 and we did and it ended up I guess, you know, 2:07:07.200 --> 2:07:10.760 it reached a lot more people. Somehow, it just continued 2:07:10.800 --> 2:07:12.640 to grow through all of that, and then we started 2:07:12.640 --> 2:07:15.800 doing the drive in shows and doing doing whatever we could, 2:07:15.880 --> 2:07:18.600 whatever was whatever people were doing, whatever was coming you know, 2:07:18.920 --> 2:07:22.520 coming up, we were we just didn't stop working, and 2:07:23.000 --> 2:07:23.880 you know it seemed to work. 2:07:24.200 --> 2:07:27.040 Okay, so now live gigs come back. What does the 2:07:27.120 --> 2:07:28.200 landscape look like? 2:07:30.640 --> 2:07:33.800 It was pretty gradual, right, I mean the the I 2:07:33.840 --> 2:07:36.360 mean it felt like we like shows were happening and 2:07:36.360 --> 2:07:38.600 it was kind of like intense, and you know, there 2:07:38.680 --> 2:07:42.520 was people are in pods or whatever, and and then 2:07:43.120 --> 2:07:45.360 you know, COVID would kind of come back strong and 2:07:45.360 --> 2:07:47.760 and things would kind of slow down and shut down again, 2:07:47.840 --> 2:07:51.720 and but you know, fun functionally, for the most part, 2:07:51.880 --> 2:07:55.680 we were riding that landscape. We just we we really 2:07:55.760 --> 2:07:59.720 didn't stop and uh, it kind of just kept growing. 2:08:00.160 --> 2:08:02.960 I guess, you know, the shows just kept getting bigger, 2:08:03.080 --> 2:08:05.560 and uh, you know, in a lot of ways, it 2:08:05.600 --> 2:08:08.000 was it was tough to it. It's a challenge, you know, 2:08:08.040 --> 2:08:09.880 being on that kind of wave and keeping up with 2:08:09.920 --> 2:08:14.280 it and meeting meeting the expectations that other people, that 2:08:14.320 --> 2:08:17.320 everyone has and that you have on yourself in in 2:08:17.320 --> 2:08:20.720 that type of opportunity. It's it's you know, it's not easy. 2:08:22.560 --> 2:08:24.560 So you know, I think we throughout all of that. 2:08:24.600 --> 2:08:26.920 It's just it continued to grow, and you know, there's 2:08:26.960 --> 2:08:31.680 a huge the adaptation process to that from a production 2:08:31.800 --> 2:08:34.840 standpoint was was a huge challenge as well. You know, 2:08:34.880 --> 2:08:37.040 we we didn't we were like playing clubs. We didn't 2:08:37.080 --> 2:08:40.400 know how to how to graduate into these bigger things, 2:08:40.440 --> 2:08:44.040 and there was like a massive learning curve with that, 2:08:44.440 --> 2:08:47.040 you know, big time crew and and how to how 2:08:47.080 --> 2:08:49.560 to go into these bigger rooms and actually do it right. 2:08:49.600 --> 2:08:54.960 And you know that's uh, we we did the best 2:08:55.200 --> 2:08:57.000 we could. You know, we were we were just doing 2:08:57.040 --> 2:08:59.480 our best through that that period. And also, like I 2:08:59.640 --> 2:09:03.040 said earlier, you know, twenty twenty one, I crashed out again. 2:09:03.080 --> 2:09:05.120 I was I was you know, I was hanging out 2:09:05.120 --> 2:09:08.480 by a thread for a lot of that time. So 2:09:09.120 --> 2:09:12.040 it was, you know, we were just we were doing 2:09:12.160 --> 2:09:13.640 doing the best we could with what we had. 2:09:13.680 --> 2:09:16.920 You know, well, when did the numbers start to jump 2:09:16.960 --> 2:09:19.480 in terms of you know, attendance. 2:09:20.920 --> 2:09:23.920 I mean early twenty twenty it was already like that 2:09:24.000 --> 2:09:27.680 fall of twenty nineteen, that whole tour had kind of 2:09:27.720 --> 2:09:30.840 sold out and we had done our our first show 2:09:30.880 --> 2:09:33.760 to six hundred people that you know, that sold out 2:09:33.800 --> 2:09:38.560 in Virginia, Richmond, I think, and Chicago kind of hit 2:09:38.680 --> 2:09:41.400 a similar number, and that that felt huge to us. 2:09:41.400 --> 2:09:45.640 You know, that was massive. And then you know, during 2:09:45.680 --> 2:09:47.960 that time, during that fall, I remember, we put up 2:09:49.440 --> 2:09:51.840 we had we had gotten we just started working with 2:09:51.880 --> 2:09:55.680 our current agents and they they were like, we want 2:09:55.680 --> 2:09:59.760 to put up two shows in New York, one in Brooklyn, 2:09:59.760 --> 2:10:04.880 one Manhattan in January of twenty twenty. And they did 2:10:05.200 --> 2:10:08.400 and they and we were like, well they were both 2:10:08.440 --> 2:10:10.800 six hundred cap rooms and they were there was like 2:10:10.920 --> 2:10:13.320 back to back rooms, back to back nights, and we 2:10:13.320 --> 2:10:15.840 were like whoa, Like that seems way aggressive, but maybe 2:10:15.880 --> 2:10:17.880 one of those, you know, but there's no but like 2:10:17.920 --> 2:10:20.880 two that's no one, you know, it's gonna we're gonna 2:10:20.880 --> 2:10:22.920 take a bath. It's not no one's gonna come, you know. 2:10:24.480 --> 2:10:27.920 And they put them up and they both sold out 2:10:28.040 --> 2:10:31.960 in like a second, and we thought there was The 2:10:32.000 --> 2:10:34.760 initial reaction was like there's there's you know, there's must 2:10:34.800 --> 2:10:40.800 be something wrong with the website. You know, but yeah, 2:10:40.800 --> 2:10:45.400 so that they ended up cooking really hot, and you know, 2:10:45.440 --> 2:10:48.040 I think the attendance was just kind of that once 2:10:48.120 --> 2:10:50.840 that that fire starts, the buzz and all of that, 2:10:51.360 --> 2:10:53.120 it kind of just it kind of just kept going. 2:10:53.160 --> 2:10:55.560 You know that that spring, these all they all got 2:10:55.560 --> 2:10:57.960 canceled because of COVID, but you know, I think we 2:10:58.040 --> 2:11:02.280 had rooms rooms like thousand to fifteen hundred kind of 2:11:02.400 --> 2:11:04.920 zone booked, and I think they were all sold out. 2:11:05.600 --> 2:11:08.000 So it was kind of on that trajectory. And then 2:11:08.600 --> 2:11:10.600 you know, by fall of twenty twenty, we started doing 2:11:10.600 --> 2:11:12.960 those driving things and it was like, you know, selling 2:11:13.000 --> 2:11:16.520 two thousand of these driving kind of show tickets and 2:11:16.920 --> 2:11:19.200 things like that, and I don't know, the numbers of 2:11:19.240 --> 2:11:21.560 it all just just kind of get gets fuzzy, but it, 2:11:23.280 --> 2:11:25.480 you know, it's always an up and down kind of thing, 2:11:25.560 --> 2:11:27.800 always till to this day. You know, there's there we 2:11:28.200 --> 2:11:30.560 play some really big shows and then there's some places 2:11:30.560 --> 2:11:36.640 where they're not as big, you know, but the yeah, 2:11:36.640 --> 2:11:38.680 it was it was just a lot of growth for 2:11:38.800 --> 2:11:40.720 years after that. I mean, the numbers kind of just 2:11:41.840 --> 2:11:44.000 continued to grow. 2:11:44.040 --> 2:11:48.240 I guess, well, what point do your peers start to 2:11:48.320 --> 2:11:53.200 embrace you you know, the famous people, you know what 2:11:53.240 --> 2:11:53.960 I'm talking about. 2:11:55.080 --> 2:12:02.400 Sure, yeah, the more here heroes than peers. But but yeah, 2:12:02.400 --> 2:12:04.800 I mean, I think twenty twenty two is really when 2:12:05.080 --> 2:12:07.120 that there was like a huge turning point there. We 2:12:07.160 --> 2:12:10.440 put out we put out another album that year, and 2:12:10.480 --> 2:12:15.280 we played Radio City that summer and that was you know, 2:12:15.880 --> 2:12:19.160 Trey came out and played with us, and so did 2:12:19.240 --> 2:12:21.960 Josh Tillman, father John Misty, which you know, that was 2:12:22.000 --> 2:12:25.040 a that was a wild combination, like to the point earlier, 2:12:25.200 --> 2:12:28.480 you know, the merging of those two worlds was like 2:12:29.120 --> 2:12:32.200 was one. I mean, it was just insane that that 2:12:32.200 --> 2:12:35.080 that happened. I just still don't understand, you know, I 2:12:35.120 --> 2:12:37.680 still like there's there's a certain degree of dissociation that 2:12:37.720 --> 2:12:39.680 has to for me, that has to happen in order 2:12:39.720 --> 2:12:42.160 to just like show up to those things. And when 2:12:42.200 --> 2:12:44.440 that's it's like, Okay, this is happening. Cool, you know, 2:12:45.080 --> 2:12:47.200 it doesn't feel real to me on some level, but 2:12:47.280 --> 2:12:49.400 it's just it's happening, so you just will go do 2:12:49.440 --> 2:12:51.040 it and try our best, you know, do our best. 2:12:52.280 --> 2:12:54.080 But yeah, so that was I think that was that 2:12:54.160 --> 2:12:56.680 was obviously a massive moment for us in so many 2:12:56.720 --> 2:13:01.680 ways and the momentum at that time, I'm it was 2:13:01.800 --> 2:13:05.440 it was just crazy. And you know, after that kind 2:13:05.440 --> 2:13:08.120 of those things just kept kept happening. But that that 2:13:08.120 --> 2:13:10.200 that year felt like the turning point as far as 2:13:10.200 --> 2:13:11.360 that stuff is concerned. 2:13:12.200 --> 2:13:16.800 Okay, going forward other than more gigs anything special in 2:13:16.840 --> 2:13:26.360 the pipeline. 2:13:22.080 --> 2:13:26.040 You know, I I think, uh, it's just you know, 2:13:26.200 --> 2:13:28.920 building the building our own world feels that's like feels 2:13:28.920 --> 2:13:33.040 like the most special thing to me. You know, I 2:13:32.520 --> 2:13:35.280 I want to, like I said, I just I want 2:13:35.280 --> 2:13:38.240 to keep writing a lot of music and putting out 2:13:38.240 --> 2:13:41.240 as much music as I can and working on different 2:13:41.240 --> 2:13:43.880 projects like that feels like the juice. That's the sauce 2:13:43.960 --> 2:13:48.480 to me. And uh, you know, getting getting deeper into 2:13:49.240 --> 2:13:54.720 into special events is feels really good and something that 2:13:54.760 --> 2:13:57.720 we're excited to keep doing. And and the things that 2:13:57.720 --> 2:14:01.960 that feel authentic and exciting and unique, you know that 2:14:01.960 --> 2:14:04.280 that's that's those are the kinds of things that that 2:14:04.560 --> 2:14:07.440 really fill up the well. You know, we're doing a 2:14:08.400 --> 2:14:11.600 we started doing we did the first year of a 2:14:11.640 --> 2:14:17.000 Destination festival in in Cabo last year, so we're you 2:14:17.040 --> 2:14:20.280 know doing that again this year and is a really 2:14:20.280 --> 2:14:23.920 special place and really special experience and you know kind 2:14:23.960 --> 2:14:26.560 of uh, we kind of did this once before, but 2:14:26.760 --> 2:14:28.440 it was a very last minute thing. This is kind 2:14:28.480 --> 2:14:31.440 of the first time we've we've put ourselves in the 2:14:31.520 --> 2:14:35.200 in the situation to be working on a lineup and 2:14:35.200 --> 2:14:37.760 having people come to a thing and and and uh 2:14:37.960 --> 2:14:40.920 kind of hosting in that way. And it's it's really fun, 2:14:41.000 --> 2:14:42.600 and it feels really good, and it feels really good 2:14:42.600 --> 2:14:47.400 to be you know, having having other artists there and 2:14:47.440 --> 2:14:50.440 that that we that we love and and you know, 2:14:50.920 --> 2:14:54.760 look up to and and uh love love just you know, 2:14:54.960 --> 2:14:58.240 collaborating with and and and you know, getting to be 2:14:58.320 --> 2:15:02.120 peers with. So you know, that's that's a pretty special thing. 2:15:02.680 --> 2:15:04.800 Continue to work on that. Our our you know, our 2:15:04.840 --> 2:15:10.480 event every December Goose Miss. We uh, you know, we 2:15:10.760 --> 2:15:12.960 try to make that special every year and come up 2:15:13.000 --> 2:15:14.839 with new ways to to think about that and approach 2:15:14.880 --> 2:15:17.440 that and just like you know many other people in 2:15:18.080 --> 2:15:20.920 our world have done. But you know, finding our own 2:15:21.040 --> 2:15:23.560 our own ways into these things and our own our 2:15:23.600 --> 2:15:29.000 own spin and you know, the way our our energy 2:15:29.040 --> 2:15:31.640 can can bring it to some some different place. It's 2:15:31.760 --> 2:15:34.280 it's it's a fun process. But yeah, mostly I just 2:15:34.280 --> 2:15:35.240 want to keep writing music. 2:15:35.880 --> 2:15:38.880 So you got this destination vessel in Cabo, you played 2:15:38.920 --> 2:15:43.080 Red Rocks, you played Madison Square Garden. How many tickets 2:15:43.080 --> 2:15:49.360 can you sell in secondary markets Cleveland, Minneapolis? I mean 2:15:49.600 --> 2:15:51.920 you tour in those places. How big are the poles? 2:15:53.080 --> 2:15:58.120 It varies, you know, even even within one city, it 2:15:58.240 --> 2:16:00.520 varies depending on what time of year is, or what 2:16:00.560 --> 2:16:03.840 the venue is or whatever it may be. You know, 2:16:03.840 --> 2:16:06.440 there's certain spots where we're getting up where you can 2:16:06.480 --> 2:16:09.080 do like the ten thousand maybe a little over, maybe 2:16:09.080 --> 2:16:11.760 a little under kind of mark. And then there's some 2:16:11.800 --> 2:16:14.720 spots where you know, we're like twenty five hundred to 2:16:15.000 --> 2:16:19.040 five thousand zone. I'd say most places are are, you know, 2:16:19.120 --> 2:16:21.600 in that like three to five thousand kind of zone. 2:16:22.960 --> 2:16:27.640 So personally, do you feel like you've arrived? You're still 2:16:27.680 --> 2:16:29.120 pinching yourself. 2:16:30.800 --> 2:16:33.640 You know, if the whole thing is such a whirlwind 2:16:35.959 --> 2:16:39.560 and it goes so fast, it moves like time when 2:16:39.680 --> 2:16:42.480 all the tours and stuff, you know, you do three 2:16:42.520 --> 2:16:44.960 tours a year and then the year's over, and the 2:16:45.040 --> 2:16:47.440 time moves so fast. It still feels in a lot 2:16:47.440 --> 2:16:50.000 of ways like like I'm just starting to like trying 2:16:50.040 --> 2:16:53.720 to get caught up to that change of pace in life, 2:16:54.959 --> 2:16:56.760 but at the same time, like it's been going on 2:16:56.879 --> 2:16:59.440 for a while now and I think we have in 2:16:59.480 --> 2:17:01.600 a lot of ways. Is like we we continue to 2:17:02.320 --> 2:17:04.520 I think, catch up to it in different ways. But 2:17:04.560 --> 2:17:09.160 I see I see so much, so much more, runway, 2:17:09.240 --> 2:17:12.560 so much more. Like That's why when it's it's like 2:17:12.600 --> 2:17:13.960 kind of what's next, it's like, I want to just 2:17:14.040 --> 2:17:18.640 keep getting better out where we are, you know. It's 2:17:18.680 --> 2:17:22.199 it's not thinking about the next the next biggest venue 2:17:22.280 --> 2:17:24.119 or the next you know, most tickets we can sell. 2:17:24.160 --> 2:17:27.320 It's just like I just want to continue to be 2:17:27.400 --> 2:17:29.720 able to show up more and more to to where 2:17:29.720 --> 2:17:32.960 we are and what we have, you know. That's that's 2:17:33.000 --> 2:17:39.040 the thing that that feels relevant. I guess yeah, I 2:17:39.200 --> 2:17:41.440 think it's a combination of both. It's like, you know, 2:17:42.520 --> 2:17:47.800 I think hopefully we arrive more and more each each month, 2:17:48.000 --> 2:17:52.920 you know, each day, but it still feels surreal for sure. 2:17:53.040 --> 2:17:56.880 There's still like you know, playing the garden again. It 2:17:57.200 --> 2:17:59.560 feels like, you know, because we're not we're not part 2:17:59.600 --> 2:18:06.640 of the mainstream world in that way in so many ways. 2:18:06.680 --> 2:18:09.520 You know, Uh, it doesn't, it doesn't. It feels like 2:18:09.840 --> 2:18:13.680 it's like a like a you know, it's like some 2:18:13.760 --> 2:18:15.320 cheat code or something. We're just like in our own 2:18:15.320 --> 2:18:20.039 little universe. And and if I think about, you know, 2:18:20.120 --> 2:18:24.160 comparing or competing with the broader thing, it's it's it's 2:18:24.200 --> 2:18:25.680 just like, oh, thank god, we don't have to do 2:18:25.720 --> 2:18:28.039 that because we're just in our own little universe over here. 2:18:28.120 --> 2:18:28.320 You know. 2:18:29.560 --> 2:18:33.000 Well, speaking of showing up, you definitely showed up today. 2:18:33.120 --> 2:18:35.440 I think we got a good understanding of you and 2:18:35.560 --> 2:18:38.200 the band. Rick. I want to thank you so much 2:18:38.240 --> 2:18:40.400 for taking this time to speak with my audience. 2:18:41.560 --> 2:18:44.800 Thank you, thank you for having me until next time. 2:18:45.280 --> 2:18:46.760 This is Bob left Sex