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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you missed in History class from dot Com. Hello,

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Speaker 1: and welcome to the podcast That's Crazy. B Wilson and

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Speaker 1: I'm Holly Frying. I have a confession to make of

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Speaker 1: a long holding jealousy. It's been with me quite a while.

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Speaker 1: I have always been jealous of Sarah and Bablina having

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Speaker 1: already covered the right of Spring riots on our podcast.

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Speaker 1: The whole story is just so weird they already covered

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Speaker 1: it back in so I've had my eye out for

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Speaker 1: some other kind of weird musical story to cover as

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Speaker 1: like a sad consolation prize. This is not a sad

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Speaker 1: consolation prize. This is actually awesome. It is about a

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Speaker 1: musical mass hysteria that is from the mid nineteenth century,

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Speaker 1: and that is list Omania. Yeah. Uh, it's delightful. I mean,

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Speaker 1: there's no way around it. I feel kind of sorry

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Speaker 1: for the guy, but at the same time it's pretty great.

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Speaker 1: So before we start, as as often happens, I need

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Speaker 1: a little note. So today, the word mania definitely has

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Speaker 1: psychological connotations, right. It's used to describe this excessively elevated

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Speaker 1: mood or really hyperactive mental state, and that can also

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Speaker 1: extend into like physical hyperactivity and other behaviors. And usually

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Speaker 1: it's used this way in the context of like bipolar disorder,

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Speaker 1: other mental and emotional disorders. And there are definitely folks

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Speaker 1: who would really prefer that the word mania not be

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Speaker 1: used to describe more generally just being really excited or busy.

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Speaker 1: But at the time when the word list domania was coined,

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Speaker 1: the word mania was really a physical description, it was

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Speaker 1: not a psychological one, and so list romania was considered

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Speaker 1: to be a frantic and dangerous physiological response to being

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Speaker 1: around France list And so when we use the word

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Speaker 1: mania in today's show, that is the context that we

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Speaker 1: are talking about. I can think of was all those

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Speaker 1: shots of the women in the crowd as the Beatles

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Speaker 1: landed in America. It's very similar. Well, and to be honest,

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Speaker 1: I saw the Boston Symphony, the Boston Pops specifically do

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Speaker 1: a whole night of the Beatles, and um, it was amazing.

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Speaker 1: I was. I was really there to see John Hodgman

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Speaker 1: do what's it called the Introduction to Orchestra for young people.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that Yeah, it was hilarious and there was

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Speaker 1: a there was a narration through the whole thing that

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Speaker 1: talked about among other things, Beatlemania, and I had this

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Speaker 1: movement where I was like, what if we did a

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Speaker 1: podcast on beatle Maia, and I couldn't figure out a

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Speaker 1: way to make that feel legitimate. So this feels a

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Speaker 1: lot more legitimate and also very fun. So to give

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Speaker 1: you a little bit of background and set this up,

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Speaker 1: Franz List was born in Devoreon, Hungary, which is now Raiding, Austria,

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Speaker 1: although it is still referred to as Devoreon if you

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Speaker 1: speak Hungarian, on October eighteen eleven, and the Boreon at

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Speaker 1: the time was rather small. It was basically a market

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Speaker 1: town and most of the people who lived there were

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Speaker 1: both German speaking and ethnically Hungarian or MegaR. Liszt was

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Speaker 1: the only child of Adam Liszt and Anna Maria Lager.

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Speaker 1: Adam List worked as a clerk for Prince Nicholas esther Hazy,

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Speaker 1: who was a musical patron and a lists father was

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Speaker 1: also an amateur musician who could play several different instruments,

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Speaker 1: including the cello and the piano. Franz lists father had

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Speaker 1: also spent two years in the Franciscan Order, so Franz

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Speaker 1: grew into a religiously pretty devoted child. Liz already showed

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Speaker 1: a really distinct love of music by the age of six,

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Speaker 1: and his father started to give him music lessons. Franz

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Speaker 1: was just enormously talented, and he really progressed in his

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Speaker 1: musical study extremely quickly. By the time he was nine,

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Speaker 1: he was giving public performances as a concert pianist, and

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Speaker 1: after his first performance, local big wigs actually donated money

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Speaker 1: to fund the next several years of his musical education. Soon,

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Speaker 1: his prodigious ability outstripped the resources that were available in

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Speaker 1: De Boreon, so liszts father asked for an extended leave

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Speaker 1: of absence from his employer and took Franz to Vienna.

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Speaker 1: There he studied piano with Carl Cherney, who himself had

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Speaker 1: studied with Ludwig von Beethoven. Liszt also studied composition with

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Speaker 1: Antonio Salieri, who was much more famous for his relationship

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Speaker 1: with and rivalry with Mozart. Both of these two teachers

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Speaker 1: were so impressed with liszts talent that they refused to

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Speaker 1: be paid for their work with him. Franz's first public

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Speaker 1: performance in Vienna was in eighteen twenty two, so he

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Speaker 1: would have been about eleven years old at this time,

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Speaker 1: and he was described as quote a little hercules fallen

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Speaker 1: from the clouds. He started writing his own compositions that

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Speaker 1: same year. The next year, Franz met Lidwig on Beethoven

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Speaker 1: for the first time, and according to one possibly apocryphal account,

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Speaker 1: Beethoven was so charmed that he kissed him on the forehead.

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Speaker 1: Three was also the year that Lizt moved to Paris.

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Speaker 1: This move was another one that was made so that

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Speaker 1: he could continue his studies with other musical masters. And

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Speaker 1: while the Paris Conservatory declined to admit him on the

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Speaker 1: grounds that he was not French, check composer Anton Russia

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Speaker 1: and Italian composer Fernando Paier taught him privately. In addition

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Speaker 1: to his studies, he put on extensive public performances and

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Speaker 1: he really started to develop quite a following. However, in

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Speaker 1: eighteen six, when he was fifteen years old, Franz's father

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Speaker 1: died suddenly of typhoid. His father had really been his

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Speaker 1: primary source of support during all of this musical training

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Speaker 1: and performing, Plus the boy was only fifteen years old.

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Speaker 1: He had not always had good health up until this point,

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Speaker 1: and this whole theories of touring and studying had been

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Speaker 1: really fatiguing. After his father's death, Franz had to share

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Speaker 1: a one bedroom apartment with his mother, and, grieving and exhausted,

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Speaker 1: he turned to teaching piano to try to make a living.

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Speaker 1: He actually fell in love with one of his students.

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Speaker 1: She's going to set a trend for his later life.

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Speaker 1: When her father forced him to end their relationship, he

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Speaker 1: became so ill that newspapers printed obituaries for him. Afterward,

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Speaker 1: he retreated from public performance for almost four years, and

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Speaker 1: he spent most of this time reading and teaching music.

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Speaker 1: He started to compose music again in eighteen thirty following

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Speaker 1: the July Revolution in which King Charles the tenth was

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Speaker 1: overthrown and succeeded by Louis Philippe. In his mother's words

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Speaker 1: quote the cannons cured him, and afterward he met several

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Speaker 1: more famous names in the musical world, including Hector Berlioz,

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Speaker 1: Niccolo Paganini, and Frederic Chopin. Liszt met the married Comtesse

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Speaker 1: Marie Dagou in eighteen thirty three, when he was twenty

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Speaker 1: two years old. In spite of her being married, he

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Speaker 1: fell in love with her and they were to be

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Speaker 1: together for twelve years. They eventually had three children together.

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Speaker 1: To avoid the scorn of Parisian society over this affair

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Speaker 1: with a married woman, they left and spent the next

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Speaker 1: four years traveling through Europe, including Switzerland, Italy, and other

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Speaker 1: non Paris parts of France. His travels and his love

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Speaker 1: for her started to inspire him to compose, and he

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Speaker 1: wrote a set of sweets for solo piano, which became

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Speaker 1: the highly praised A ned de pillery Nage. Over the

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Speaker 1: next few years, lists reputation as a musician grew just dramatically.

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Speaker 1: He gave tours and performances and really made a name

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Speaker 1: for himself as a virtuoso composer and pianist, and as

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Speaker 1: well as an extremely charismatic and very expressive performer. He

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Speaker 1: also became known for being quite generous with his music

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Speaker 1: and his time. He often taught people and also exce

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Speaker 1: did official posts for free, so we thought, all this

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Speaker 1: without pay, and then he would donate the proceeds from

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Speaker 1: his concerts to charity. He also developed a different reputation

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Speaker 1: thanks to his behavior off stage. James Honker's nineteen eleven biography,

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Speaker 1: in chapter two, which is called Aspects of his art

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Speaker 1: and character begins lists and the ladies. It's like this

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Speaker 1: is like the heading, so it's like one list and

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Speaker 1: the lady. The feminine friendships of Franz List gained for

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Speaker 1: him as much notoriety as his music making. To the

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Speaker 1: average public, he was a compound of Casanova, Byron and Gheta,

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Speaker 1: and to this mixture could have been added the name

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Speaker 1: of Stendhow lists, love affairs, lists, children lists, perilous escape

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Speaker 1: from daggers, pistols and poisons were the subjects of conversation

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Speaker 1: in Europe three quarters of a century ago. As earlier,

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Speaker 1: Byron was both hero and black sheep in the current

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Speaker 1: gossip of his time. Let's just add to the subjects

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Speaker 1: of conversation right now that he was also extremely attractive,

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Speaker 1: Like I'm having trouble picking out which extremely attractive picture

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Speaker 1: of Fronz List should accompany our blog post, in our

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Speaker 1: show notes and and the episode itself, because there are many.

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Speaker 1: And he looks like he looks like the boy at

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Speaker 1: your high school who was very sensitive and soulful and

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Speaker 1: wrote terrible poetry and made all of the girls think

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Speaker 1: that he was just so tragically attractive Like that, that's

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Speaker 1: what he looked like, yeah, he looks like every guy

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Speaker 1: in every Um movie about teenage forlornness as well that like,

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Speaker 1: he's so beautiful, no one will ever understand him. Yep,

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Speaker 1: I'm not. He is a pretty thing. I mean, he's

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Speaker 1: very beautiful. So basically this all meant that Bronze List

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Speaker 1: was a nineteenth century virtuo so piano rock star him.

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Speaker 1: That's where this mania comes in. We're going to talk

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Speaker 1: about after a brief word from a sponsor, So two

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Speaker 1: understand this mania that erupted around Franz List. Let's start

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Speaker 1: by talking about what he was like in concert. Here

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Speaker 1: is a description written by Hans Christian Anderson of all people.

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Speaker 1: As List sat before the piano, the first impression of

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Speaker 1: his personality was derived from the appearance of strong passions

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Speaker 1: in his land face, so that he seems to me

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Speaker 1: a demon nailed fast to the instrument. Once his tones

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Speaker 1: streamed forth, they came from his blood, from his thoughts.

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Speaker 1: He was a demon who would liberate his soul from

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Speaker 1: the thralldom. He was on the rack, his blood flowed

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Speaker 1: and his nerves trembled. But as he continued to play,

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Speaker 1: so the demon vanished. I saw that pale face assume

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Speaker 1: a nobler and brighter expression. The divine soul shone from

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Speaker 1: his eyes from every feature, he became as beauteous as

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Speaker 1: only spirit and enthusiasm can make their worshippers really, Liz

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Speaker 1: had been breaking new ground in his concert performances. It

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Speaker 1: was not at this point common for just a man

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Speaker 1: and a piano to have a whole stage to himself,

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Speaker 1: but Liz did basically invent this sort of recital as

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Speaker 1: a performance format, and it definitely wasn't common for someone

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Speaker 1: to play the piano like a demon turned divine. The

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Speaker 1: whole performance was so enormously expressive and a motive, and

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Speaker 1: the audience tended to really just get caught up in it.

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Speaker 1: On top of that, this played with the piano in

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Speaker 1: profile so that people could see his face while he played,

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Speaker 1: and he would whip his kind of longish hair around

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Speaker 1: as he was playing, which was very striking. He also

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Speaker 1: played all of his music from memory, which a lot

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Speaker 1: of other musicians of the day thought was extremely rude,

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Speaker 1: especially when you were playing work that someone else had written,

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Speaker 1: which could make people think that you had actually written

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Speaker 1: it herself. On December one, Franz List played the first

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Speaker 1: concert in what would be a ten week tour of Germany,

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Speaker 1: and the audience was overcome. Women shrieked and swooned, and

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Speaker 1: there was a general atmosphere of rapturous chaos and from

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Speaker 1: the men jealousy. It got weirder from there. People started

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Speaker 1: wearing lockets and brooches that had its face on them,

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Speaker 1: which is not that weird. I mean, it's not that

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Speaker 1: much different from having a T shirt with your favorite

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Speaker 1: boy band face on it. Women, however, started carrying vials

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Speaker 1: with them in case Franz List walked away from some

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Speaker 1: night not quite empty cup of coffee, so they could

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Speaker 1: like spirit away the unconsumed dregs of his coffee and

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Speaker 1: then carry it around with them. In that vile people

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Speaker 1: scavenged his old coffee grounds and cigar butts. Also, there's

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Speaker 1: even one story of a lady in waiting having one

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Speaker 1: of his discarded cig our butts encased in a locket

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Speaker 1: that had his initials and jewels on the front. I

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Speaker 1: love it. I mean that one makes perfect sense to me.

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Speaker 1: Remember that Angelina Jolie and Billy Bob Thornton were walking

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Speaker 1: around with bials of one another's blood. Yes, it was

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Speaker 1: like that. I get it. Uh. Women would literally attack

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Speaker 1: List when this mania was going on, so they would

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Speaker 1: tear off parts of his clothes, they would try to

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Speaker 1: snip pieces of his hair, and they would fight one

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Speaker 1: another for their spoils. He'd throw gloves and handkerchiefs into

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Speaker 1: the audience after performances, and the scene would devolve into fisticuffs,

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Speaker 1: sometimes with the articles that people were fighting over being

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Speaker 1: torn to bits in the process. His manner of playing

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Speaker 1: the piano was also very prone to breaking strings, and

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Speaker 1: women would scavenge those broken springs also and then make

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Speaker 1: them into bracelets, which is one of the less weird

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Speaker 1: parts of all of it. I love that. I love

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Speaker 1: a little crafty fandom. And yes, in case you're wondering,

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Speaker 1: there are reports of women throwing their garments onto the stage,

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Speaker 1: including their undergarments, although this is disputed as to whether

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Speaker 1: or not its fact or fancy. So although most of

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Speaker 1: the list domania behavior has attributed to women, men definitely

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Speaker 1: did get on the action to some of them in

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Speaker 1: their own excitement and some of them in the form

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Speaker 1: of fighting one another in fits of jealousy. It was

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Speaker 1: poet and journalist Heinrich Heina who coined the word Liz

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Speaker 1: Domeny on April four, at which point Liz had actually

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Speaker 1: moved on to Paris. And at first Hina actually thought

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Speaker 1: this whole phenomenon was a result of social and legal expectations.

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Speaker 1: In Germany. It was culturally more reserved than Paris, with

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Speaker 1: a more stringent law enforcement. So his supposition was that

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Speaker 1: people were taking this opportunity to legally blow off steam

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Speaker 1: where they could. But then Franzlist came to Paris, where

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Speaker 1: people were a lot freer, there was a lot more

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Speaker 1: social wiggle room. The exact same thing happened, uh, And

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Speaker 1: he wrote quite a lot about it. We're not going

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Speaker 1: to read all of it, but we are going to

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Speaker 1: read kind of a lengthy bit of Heina's description, which

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Speaker 1: goes strange. Thought. I these Parisians who have seen Napoleon,

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Speaker 1: who had to win one battle after another to hold

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Speaker 1: their attention, Now they are claiming our franz List. And

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Speaker 1: what in a claim? It was a veritable insanity, one

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Speaker 1: unheard of in the annals of fur Or what is

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Speaker 1: the reason of this phenomenon? The solution of this question

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Speaker 1: belongs to the domain of pathology rather than that of esthetics.

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Speaker 1: A physician whose specialty is female diseases, and whom I

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Speaker 1: asked to explain the magic our List exerted upon his public,

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Speaker 1: smiled in the strangest manner, and at the same time

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Speaker 1: said all sorts of things about magnetism, galvinism, electricity, of

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Speaker 1: the contagion of a close haul filled with countless wax

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Speaker 1: lights and several hundred perfumed and perspiring human beings, of

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Speaker 1: historical epilepsy, of the phenomenon of tickling, of musical canthrides,

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Speaker 1: and other scabbarous things which I believe have reference to

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Speaker 1: the mysteries of the bonadilla. Perhaps the solution of the

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Speaker 1: question is not buried in such adventurous depths, but floats

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Speaker 1: on a very prosaic surface. It seems to me at

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Speaker 1: times that all this sorcery may be explained by the

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Speaker 1: fact that no one on earth knows, uh knows so

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Speaker 1: well how to organize his successes or raise their mais

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Speaker 1: en as our Frand's list in this art. He is

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Speaker 1: a genius. As we said at the top of the show,

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Speaker 1: the medical establishment thought this was a contagious, dangerous physical

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Speaker 1: syndrome that could actually be passed from one overwrought lady

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Speaker 1: to another. They feared an epidemic. So basically, people have

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Speaker 1: been pathologizing young women being really excited about music for

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Speaker 1: almost a hundred and seventy five years. That wasn't new

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Speaker 1: with the Beatles, No, not new with any boy bands

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Speaker 1: since then, all the way back to franz List, maybe

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Speaker 1: even before. It's possible that there were similar stories and

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Speaker 1: other cultures. All of the resources I had in my

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Speaker 1: disposal were about like the Western musical tradition. Who knows,

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Speaker 1: so actually this whole thing kind of plagued franz List.

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Speaker 1: Other musicians were absolutely appalled at the audience's behavior, including

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Speaker 1: really famous names like Chopin and Schumann and Mendelssohn. A

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Speaker 1: lot of people in the musical world really started to

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Speaker 1: dislike franz List based on what they saw is this vulgar,

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Speaker 1: needless hero worship that was undecorous and dangerous, And lists

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Speaker 1: own correspondence sounds vaguely baffled at this pattern. I mean,

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Speaker 1: he was obviously doing some things to encourage it, like

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Speaker 1: on purpose throwing gloves and handkerchiefs into the audience, but

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Speaker 1: he really still didn't seem to quite fathom the extent

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Speaker 1: of everybody's intensity. But just like Beatlemania, spice Girlmania and

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Speaker 1: beaver Fever, it eventually subsided. We're going to talk about

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Speaker 1: that some more after we have a quick word from

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Speaker 1: one of our fabulous sponsors. So to get to the

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Speaker 1: end of liszt Domania and the end of frons less life.

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Speaker 1: In eighty seven, List met Princess Caroline's son Wittgenstein, and

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Speaker 1: he met her in Kiev and they started a relationship,

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Speaker 1: and she, like his previous long term love affair, was married.

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Speaker 1: The princess wanted him to stop touring and settle down

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Speaker 1: and focus on teaching and composing instead, and so while

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Speaker 1: he and the previous his previous love interest to contest

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Speaker 1: had needed to escape Paris and scandal, instead, List was

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Speaker 1: installed in the Princess's estates. His last paying concert was

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Speaker 1: in September of that year and he was thirty five.

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Speaker 1: At the age of thirty seven, he accepted the permanent

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Speaker 1: post of Kappameister, basically the person in charge of music

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Speaker 1: for the Grand Duke of Weimar. This position came with

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Speaker 1: a royal benefactor, Carl Alexander, to be his patron, so

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Speaker 1: he had the financial and social backing to just continue

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Speaker 1: his own work. Liz moved to Weimar and the Princess

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Speaker 1: later joined him there. In addition to his ongoing teaching

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Speaker 1: and composition, lists started trying to create new musical forms,

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Speaker 1: the most famous of these with the symphonic poem, which

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Speaker 1: is a musical piece that's meant to evoke or illustrate

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Speaker 1: a story or a piece of visual art. These compositions

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Speaker 1: were really groundbreaking and they attracted more music students he

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Speaker 1: wanted to learn from him. He dedicated most of his

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Speaker 1: music around this time to the Princess Caroline, and while

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Speaker 1: in Weimar, Liszt wrote what's considered to be his most

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Speaker 1: accomplished symphonic work, in faul Symphony or Faus Symphony. This

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Speaker 1: is essentially a series of in interconnected symphonic poems based

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Speaker 1: on Johann Wolfgang van gets tragic play. Faust Geta and

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Speaker 1: Schiller had both lived in Wemar, and Liz drew musical

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Speaker 1: inspiration from their literary work. His post as Capitalmeister also

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Speaker 1: meant that Liz was responsible for conducting the Vimar Orchestra,

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Speaker 1: and in doing so he really revolutionized what it meant

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Speaker 1: to conduct. Up until that point, the conductor was basically

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Speaker 1: a human metronome. He made sure that all of the

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Speaker 1: orchestra played in time with one another and that nobody

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Speaker 1: missed their cues. But List added gestures and expressions and

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Speaker 1: an emotive physical presence to guide what the orchestra should

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Speaker 1: sound like in the shape of the playing itself. And

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Speaker 1: this is pretty much taken for granted in the field

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Speaker 1: of conducting an orchestra today. That's how it works. At

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Speaker 1: the end of the eighteen fifties, life became more difficult

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Speaker 1: for lizz He resigned his post in Vimar in eighteen

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Speaker 1: fifty nine, and at that point two of his children

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Speaker 1: also died, one in that same year that he resigned,

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Speaker 1: and then another a few years later in eighteen sixty two.

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Speaker 1: He also got caught up in a musical feud known

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Speaker 1: as the War of the Romantics, and this pitted the

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Speaker 1: more romantically inclined musicians list in Richard Wagner against the

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Speaker 1: more conservative, classically inclined traditionalist faction of Robert Schumann, Felix

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Speaker 1: Mendelssohn and Johannes Brahms. This was basically a dispute between

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Speaker 1: the more avant garde musical scene and the composers who

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Speaker 1: drew their influence from past masters like Boch, Mozart, and Beethoven.

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Speaker 1: This association with Wagner also meant that Liz developed a

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Speaker 1: reputation for having anti Semitic views, but their significant dispute

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Speaker 1: about whether quotations that were attributed to him in this

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Speaker 1: area of thought were accurate or they were not. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: at this point, Wagner is kind of notoriously anti Semitic

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Speaker 1: in his views, but I had a hard time confirming

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Speaker 1: exactly what Lists views were. So as his whole musical

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Speaker 1: schism was going on, List moved to Rome, where the

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Speaker 1: Princess Caroline had gone to try to get her previous

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Speaker 1: marriage annulled by the Pope. She Enlist hoped to get married,

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Speaker 1: but her annulment did not go through, so they did not,

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Speaker 1: and at this point Liz turned away from a lot

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Speaker 1: of the world. In eighteen sixty three, he moved to

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Speaker 1: an apartment at a monastery outside of Rome, and two

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Speaker 1: years later, in eighteen sixty five, he cut his hair

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Speaker 1: in a tonsure, so that's the shaving of the middle

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Speaker 1: part of the scalp that leaves a ring of hair

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Speaker 1: around it. At this point, he took holy orders that

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Speaker 1: same year, and he pursued an extensive study of theology

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Speaker 1: with the hope of joining the clergy, and although he

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Speaker 1: was never ordained, he did become an abbot and he

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Speaker 1: produced a number of religiously themed musical works. In eighteen seventy,

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Speaker 1: List returns to Hungary to visit, and while he was

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Speaker 1: away from Rome, Victor Emmanuel the second attempted to unify

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Speaker 1: all the Italian states and essentially laid siege to Rome.

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Speaker 1: Since he couldn't return, List remained in Hungary and accepted

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Speaker 1: a post at the Royal National Hungarian Academy of Music

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Speaker 1: in Budapest, and today this is the Franz List Academy

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Speaker 1: of Music. For the last fifteen years of his life,

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Speaker 1: List divided his time among Budapest, Weimar, and Rome. He

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Speaker 1: continued to teach extensively and cultivated the idea of a

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Speaker 1: master class, and that's an idea that's continued to be

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Speaker 1: part of musical and other artistic education today. He taught

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Speaker 1: these demonstration based classes, he being the master of course

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Speaker 1: for free. He struggled with depression and failing health towards

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Speaker 1: the end of his life, and he died in Germany

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Speaker 1: on July thirty one, eighty six. By then, he had

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Speaker 1: composed about fourteen hundred works. Although he's pretty universally recognized

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Speaker 1: as a virtue of so piano player as well as

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Speaker 1: for his contributions to the art of conducting in the

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00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:56,280
Speaker 1: idea of symphonic poems, there are still people that argue

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Speaker 1: that his skill as a composer was all hype. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I've found several articles that were like, prize list, was

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Speaker 1: he really any good? I don't think so. That's always

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00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:10,840
Speaker 1: the case with avant garde folks though, right, And it's

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00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:14,360
Speaker 1: also the case with excessively pretty sulful looking people who

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Speaker 1: acquire an overly excited base of fans that like to

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Speaker 1: scream a lot, Right. I mean you could say that

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Speaker 1: of any person in the arts or anything really weird,

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Speaker 1: Like if they have really rabid fans, there's always gonna

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Speaker 1: be a kickback of like, no, they're not worth all

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Speaker 1: of that, even though they are super talented and amazing. Right,

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Speaker 1: people say that about the Beatles, and there it's like

396
00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:41,800
Speaker 1: they're plenty of arguments you can make about the Beatles

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Speaker 1: and what their influences are and whether this influence should

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Speaker 1: have gotten more attention, and whether all of their work

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Speaker 1: is really great, but really seriously, you can't just dismiss

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Speaker 1: the entirety of the Beatles because ladies were screaming about them. Yeah,

401
00:24:55,680 --> 00:25:00,520
Speaker 1: so they're also This whole phenomenon spawned a weird opera

402
00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:03,400
Speaker 1: about Froze List in the nineteen seventies that was called

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00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:07,320
Speaker 1: list Domania. And there's also a song and album by

404
00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:12,119
Speaker 1: the band Phoenix that became very popular more much more recently. Um,

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00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:14,160
Speaker 1: if you want to read all kinds of primary sources

406
00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:18,080
Speaker 1: about from Franz List, the Library of Congress has a

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00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:19,840
Speaker 1: whole bunch of them. A bunch of them are on

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Speaker 1: the web. Pretty awfool. Do you also have listener mail

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Speaker 1: for us? Do? This is a listener mail. We're reading

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00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:29,320
Speaker 1: one of it, but we have gotten several messages along

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Speaker 1: the same theme, so I'm not trying to pick on

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Speaker 1: one person. We've gotten several of these. I just picked

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Speaker 1: one of them to read. Uh, And this is from Ross,

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Speaker 1: and Ross says Hello. I love the show. I've been

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00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:42,760
Speaker 1: listening since two thousand eight or so in the Sarah

416
00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:44,800
Speaker 1: and Dublina days and love the way that you present

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Speaker 1: most of the topics. I look forward to each episode.

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00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:50,040
Speaker 1: I listened to your episode about Calamity Jane Today, in

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Speaker 1: which he complained about the man who gave you a

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Speaker 1: one star review because he said you had too many

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Speaker 1: episodes about women. I have two comments about your discussion

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Speaker 1: of this. One. You said that you only had five

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Speaker 1: episo ssodes about women in the last twenty and that

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Speaker 1: therefore you are not doing enough episodes about women, while

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00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:08,359
Speaker 1: the five number is two. Is also unrepresentative because in

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00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:10,600
Speaker 1: those twenty you had a number of episodes that were

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Speaker 1: about neither men nor women, like Peanut Butter Hippos account

428
00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:17,639
Speaker 1: exactly five episodes about men. More importantly, I would have

429
00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:20,160
Speaker 1: guessed that you had too many episodes about women too.

430
00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:21,879
Speaker 1: The reason for this is that when you guys do

431
00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:25,359
Speaker 1: episodes about women, you lose all objectivity. For men, you

432
00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:28,840
Speaker 1: present facts. For women, you guys celebrate her life, get excited,

433
00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:31,560
Speaker 1: offer commentary about how much you love her. This makes

434
00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:33,919
Speaker 1: those episodes much more noticeable, and for that reason I

435
00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:36,280
Speaker 1: sometimes skip your episodes that are likely to be like that.

436
00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:39,720
Speaker 1: In other words, episodes about men are history well, episodes

437
00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:42,600
Speaker 1: about women become a story. In all events, I would

438
00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:46,000
Speaker 1: agree with the commentator that you discussed, although certainly not

439
00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:50,080
Speaker 1: the one star review and suggest that either episodes about

440
00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:52,560
Speaker 1: men should be more exciting to you or you should

441
00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:55,680
Speaker 1: become more objective when you discussed women, and you certainly

442
00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:58,000
Speaker 1: should not do even more episodes about women when the

443
00:26:58,080 --> 00:26:59,960
Speaker 1: ratio of men and women in the twenty episodes of

444
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:04,520
Speaker 1: that that you chose was one to one. Thank you, Ross.

445
00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:10,000
Speaker 1: So to clarify, since several people have had questions, um,

446
00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:13,359
Speaker 1: where we counted that twenty episodes was the twenty most

447
00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:17,960
Speaker 1: recent episodes since that person left that review, which I

448
00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:20,680
Speaker 1: remembered after having recorded that it was actually I think

449
00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:23,800
Speaker 1: a three star review and not a one star review,

450
00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:26,040
Speaker 1: and it was one of those. This would have been five.

451
00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:29,560
Speaker 1: But you're talking about too many women. So at the

452
00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:32,240
Speaker 1: point where we actually recorded the one about Calamity Jane,

453
00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:34,320
Speaker 1: we had already seen that review, laughed at it, and

454
00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:38,320
Speaker 1: started doing more women. So if you were counting back

455
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:41,640
Speaker 1: from the Calamity Jane episode or from any other subset

456
00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:43,960
Speaker 1: like that, is not the same twenty episodes that we

457
00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:46,800
Speaker 1: were counting. UM. I would also argue that the Hippo

458
00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:50,120
Speaker 1: two parter is really about men because a huge part

459
00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:53,760
Speaker 1: of Yeah, it's those episodes. It's is like the biography

460
00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:56,119
Speaker 1: of the men in Bob. I mean, it's really almost

461
00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:58,040
Speaker 1: the life story of two men and sort of how

462
00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:02,119
Speaker 1: their lives in twine. Yeah. So the other thing is

463
00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:06,600
Speaker 1: that I would respectfully disagree that that we only talk

464
00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:10,080
Speaker 1: about women in an excited and hyping up their lives way.

465
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:13,960
Speaker 1: I am reading it after we have this whole delight

466
00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:19,640
Speaker 1: about Franz List in his horrible uhs, I feel kind

467
00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:22,160
Speaker 1: of bad, like he's super just does remind me of

468
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:25,960
Speaker 1: of the guy that you realized and you've grown was awful,

469
00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:30,080
Speaker 1: that you loved when you were in middle or high school.

470
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:34,600
Speaker 1: So I really think whether we sound excited about somebody's

471
00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:36,840
Speaker 1: life and are hyping them up really depends on the context.

472
00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:39,960
Speaker 1: So like our episode on Frankie Manning, we talk a

473
00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:43,640
Speaker 1: bunch about loving Frankie, Yeah, we talked, especially you talk

474
00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:49,080
Speaker 1: about a bunch about loving Bella. But I can't help

475
00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:52,240
Speaker 1: but one of the unfortunate Yeah, one of the unfortunate

476
00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:54,400
Speaker 1: realities of our show though, is that, like we do

477
00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:58,040
Speaker 1: have a lot of episodes that are about upsetting events

478
00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:01,720
Speaker 1: in history, and one of the realities is that very

479
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:05,719
Speaker 1: often the governments and large bodies that have been in

480
00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:09,640
Speaker 1: control of these horrible things that happened. We're primarily run

481
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:12,240
Speaker 1: by men, and like we don't want to talk up

482
00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:17,720
Speaker 1: their lives because that thing was terrible. Like we also,

483
00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:19,600
Speaker 1: I mean, we do definitely have episodes that are about

484
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:21,680
Speaker 1: women who did horrific things. We just had that one

485
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:23,840
Speaker 1: about barry Anne Cotton, who was serious, I don't think

486
00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:26,080
Speaker 1: at any point where like she was sassy and great,

487
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:31,360
Speaker 1: like she was horrible. So yeah, So number one to

488
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:33,760
Speaker 1: clarify for the many many people who have who have

489
00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:35,840
Speaker 1: written in to be like I'd counted and I didn't

490
00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:39,920
Speaker 1: get that same number like we're probably unless you scrolled

491
00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:42,360
Speaker 1: back through all of our terrible reviews to find that

492
00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:44,960
Speaker 1: one and then counted from there. That's a different set

493
00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:47,239
Speaker 1: of plenty than our set of plenty. Uh. The thing

494
00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:49,920
Speaker 1: that I actually do think is responsible for people feeling

495
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:54,960
Speaker 1: like there are too many women is a scientifically documented

496
00:29:55,440 --> 00:30:00,440
Speaker 1: phenomenon in which people generally overrepresent and their minds how

497
00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:03,400
Speaker 1: many women there actually are. Like one of the studies

498
00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:05,760
Speaker 1: that floats around all about this all the time is

499
00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:09,040
Speaker 1: from the Gina Davis Institute on Gender and Media, and

500
00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:11,040
Speaker 1: that one found that when you're looking at a crowd

501
00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:18,719
Speaker 1: scene in film, people interpret like women as half women

502
00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:22,120
Speaker 1: in crowd scenes, and if they're actually half women and

503
00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:24,480
Speaker 1: half men in the crowd scene, people interpret that is

504
00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:27,640
Speaker 1: like being way too many women. Um. But that same

505
00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:31,600
Speaker 1: pattern has played out in more real life studies of

506
00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:34,680
Speaker 1: actual behavior out in the world, not just in media representation.

507
00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:40,520
Speaker 1: So I think people remember a lot more women than

508
00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:43,240
Speaker 1: actually are on the show, except for lately, when we've

509
00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:45,400
Speaker 1: definitely done a whole whole bunch of women on purpose.

510
00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:49,040
Speaker 1: I'm still stuck on how I usually feel like I'm

511
00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:52,600
Speaker 1: terribly gushy, even over the men that we choose, like

512
00:30:52,760 --> 00:31:00,560
Speaker 1: we delighted in Diogenes, like there was no end to it. Yeah. So, anyway,

513
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:03,880
Speaker 1: I have found the pattern seems to be three consecutive

514
00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:09,640
Speaker 1: episodes on like women or people of color or LGBT

515
00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:13,080
Speaker 1: people seems to be the tipping point when people get

516
00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:15,960
Speaker 1: really angry and and yell at us for only talking

517
00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:19,880
Speaker 1: about that now, uh, which I'm sort of like, too bad.

518
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:22,720
Speaker 1: We're gonna keep talking about women and people of color

519
00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:25,440
Speaker 1: and LGBT people because the show is called Stuff you

520
00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:27,800
Speaker 1: Missed in History class, and we're mostly talking about stuff

521
00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:30,920
Speaker 1: that you missed in history class. I'm I'm debating over

522
00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:34,800
Speaker 1: whether we should point out that Ross was generally very Um. Yes, really,

523
00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:36,840
Speaker 1: I feel like I'm picking on Ross. I don't want

524
00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:39,080
Speaker 1: to feel like I'm picking on Ross. I'm like Ross

525
00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:42,520
Speaker 1: has the misfortune of being the one person of the

526
00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:46,480
Speaker 1: several several emails and tweets and Facebook comments that we

527
00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:48,239
Speaker 1: got about this that we chose to read. Thank you

528
00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:50,240
Speaker 1: for all of the kind things that you say. Ross. Seriously,

529
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:54,920
Speaker 1: I'm I'm really not trying to embarrass you, but like

530
00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:56,840
Speaker 1: it did come up a bunch that we wanted to.

531
00:31:57,040 --> 00:31:59,240
Speaker 1: Part of it is his is articulate as well, so

532
00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:04,479
Speaker 1: it's it's a good example. Some of them were like,

533
00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:07,360
Speaker 1: it's not misogyny for meting a lot like things about women,

534
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:11,640
Speaker 1: and I'm like, we never said that, but okay, Uh,

535
00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:13,920
Speaker 1: Ross did not say he was asking questions. This is

536
00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:16,640
Speaker 1: very conversational and good, like I said, articulate versus for

537
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:22,760
Speaker 1: the alternates. M hmm. So okay, uh, thank you again. Ross.

538
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:24,400
Speaker 1: You I'm I'm glad that you've liked the show for

539
00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:26,240
Speaker 1: so long. I'm glad that you like our show. I

540
00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:30,320
Speaker 1: respectfully disagree with the idea that we are only excited

541
00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:34,200
Speaker 1: about women. Uh So you'd like to write to us

542
00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:37,680
Speaker 1: about this or any other podcast can write history podcast

543
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:39,880
Speaker 1: the House deftworks dot com. We're also on Facebook and

544
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:42,160
Speaker 1: Facebook dot com slash miss in history and on Twitter

545
00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:45,200
Speaker 1: it missed the History. Our tumbler is missing history dot

546
00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:47,760
Speaker 1: tumbler dot com, and you're we're also on Pinterest at

547
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:50,280
Speaker 1: pinchest dot com slash miss in history. You have a

548
00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:53,720
Speaker 1: spreadshirt store at missing history dot spreadshirt dot com. We

549
00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:56,560
Speaker 1: have an Instagram on Instagram, we're all put miss in history.

550
00:32:56,920 --> 00:32:58,480
Speaker 1: So if you would like to learn more about what

551
00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:00,200
Speaker 1: we've taught, what we talked about the day him to

552
00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:02,680
Speaker 1: our parent company's website, which is how stuff works dot com.

553
00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:04,400
Speaker 1: But in the word music you'll find all kinds of

554
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:07,720
Speaker 1: various articles about how music works. You can also come

555
00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:10,200
Speaker 1: to our website where we're gonna have show notes. We're

556
00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:12,520
Speaker 1: gonna have an archive every episode ever, We're gonna have

557
00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:18,040
Speaker 1: multiple pictures of Bran's list because I would. So you

558
00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:19,400
Speaker 1: can do all of that and a whole lot more

559
00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:21,760
Speaker 1: at how stuff works dot com or missed at history

560
00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:28,480
Speaker 1: dot com. For more on this and thousands of other topics,

561
00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:42,480
Speaker 1: is it how stuff works dot com