WEBVTT - Bonus Episode: Ephemeral's Alex Williams 0:00:03.000 --> 0:00:04.960 Welcome Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of I 0:00:05.000 --> 0:00:14.000 Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey, you welcome to Stuff 0:00:14.000 --> 0:00:16.239 to Blow your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and 0:00:16.280 --> 0:00:18.479 I'm Joe McCormick. And boy, we got a treat for 0:00:18.480 --> 0:00:21.920 you today. We are joined by our friend and our 0:00:22.000 --> 0:00:25.920 former producer on this very show, Alex Williams. Say Hi, Alex, 0:00:26.239 --> 0:00:31.120 reformed producer. What's going on? Man? Oh, you know, just 0:00:31.400 --> 0:00:33.839 hanging out? What's what's up with you? Well? You know 0:00:33.880 --> 0:00:36.920 we're we're just having a bonus episode in your honor. 0:00:37.040 --> 0:00:40.479 That's what's going on here. Jeez. Thanks. Right before we 0:00:40.520 --> 0:00:43.159 got going, we were sitting around talking about Riddick movies 0:00:43.280 --> 0:00:45.080 for how long, I don't know. It was a while. 0:00:45.280 --> 0:00:47.280 I was mostly listening because I hadn't seen the movie 0:00:47.280 --> 0:00:49.760 in question, or any of the Riddeck movies. No, you're 0:00:49.800 --> 0:00:52.320 here for a reason today, Alex, to tell us about it. 0:00:52.560 --> 0:00:57.160 Oh uh, because of Ephemeral. I have a podcast called Ephemeral. 0:00:57.960 --> 0:01:00.840 It's really good, folks, Yes it is. It's it's very 0:01:00.920 --> 0:01:04.120 very exciting podcast because it's it's really unlike any podcast 0:01:04.160 --> 0:01:08.399 I've listened to before, um in terms of its subject matter, 0:01:08.440 --> 0:01:10.320 but also in terms of just like the high production 0:01:10.360 --> 0:01:12.840 qualities that you bring to it. Oh, thank you. You 0:01:13.160 --> 0:01:14.720 guys did a very nice time when you did. You 0:01:14.760 --> 0:01:17.680 did the trailer, you put the trailer out in your 0:01:17.720 --> 0:01:19.320 feed I think when it first came out, and you 0:01:19.360 --> 0:01:23.759 did very nice endorsement then too about the audio quality, 0:01:23.800 --> 0:01:26.680 which I thought was very sweet, So thank you. Yeah, yeah, 0:01:26.680 --> 0:01:28.520 I mean that the outer quality is wonderful. But but 0:01:28.600 --> 0:01:31.039 more but more important though, is the topic of dealing 0:01:31.080 --> 0:01:35.240 with these ephemeral bits of media. Can you just you know, 0:01:35.240 --> 0:01:37.440 speak to everybody who might not be familiar with the show, 0:01:37.800 --> 0:01:39.479 they haven't checked it out, or maybe they didn't catch 0:01:39.800 --> 0:01:42.480 the trailer drop. What are we talking about when we're 0:01:42.480 --> 0:01:48.520 talking about the way that um Sarah Wasserman is the 0:01:48.560 --> 0:01:52.120 Material Culture Studies uh A professor of Material Culture Studies 0:01:52.120 --> 0:01:53.760 at the University of Delaware. The way that she sort 0:01:53.800 --> 0:01:58.000 of differentiates what ephemera from other kinds of you know, 0:01:58.040 --> 0:02:05.080 disposable things, junk trash, is that if Emira takes some 0:02:05.160 --> 0:02:09.120 kind of curation, someone has to do some active saving 0:02:09.800 --> 0:02:14.000 for it to to continue to exist, something like Winnebago Man. 0:02:14.000 --> 0:02:17.080 Are familiar with Winnebago Man, of course, Well, I listened 0:02:17.080 --> 0:02:20.560 to your episode where you deal with Winnebego Man. Yeah, 0:02:20.600 --> 0:02:23.760 he's the guy who is there outtakes of him trying 0:02:23.800 --> 0:02:27.320 to record a TV commercial for Winnebagos. Is it a 0:02:27.360 --> 0:02:29.600 dealership or a new model or something. I think it's 0:02:29.600 --> 0:02:32.880 a dealer's ship. It's like the eighties VHS. The guy's 0:02:32.919 --> 0:02:37.280 name is Jack Rebney and he's just getting so frustrated 0:02:37.280 --> 0:02:38.919 on this day's shoes, complaining about how hot it is, 0:02:38.960 --> 0:02:44.000 and he's just swearing continuously, just f this s than everything. 0:02:44.600 --> 0:02:47.560 And uh, I guess he really piste off the crew 0:02:48.120 --> 0:02:51.639 because they cut together this video of him, you know, 0:02:51.760 --> 0:02:54.040 all of the worst moments, I guess in this sort 0:02:54.080 --> 0:02:59.960 of compilation. Now, this is way twenty years before plus 0:03:00.160 --> 0:03:05.480 twenty six maybe years before YouTube. Uh, and this compilation 0:03:05.680 --> 0:03:09.440 video survived all this time, you know, just you know, 0:03:09.480 --> 0:03:11.799 would just get you know, Oh you you might like 0:03:11.880 --> 0:03:13.520 this thing, so I dubb it for you on VHS. 0:03:13.639 --> 0:03:15.040 Robert might like it, so you dubb it for him 0:03:15.040 --> 0:03:18.919 on VHS. It even aired on public television. This is 0:03:19.040 --> 0:03:22.440 show cold. I guess was bleeped. I don't know. I 0:03:22.720 --> 0:03:24.920 haven't been able to find the copy of it that aired. 0:03:24.919 --> 0:03:26.280 I mean maybe that's the version that we have on 0:03:26.360 --> 0:03:29.679 YouTube now. Um there's a show called The Show with 0:03:29.800 --> 0:03:32.959 No Name out of in Austin, Texas that aired just 0:03:33.120 --> 0:03:37.400 weird clips like things that are someone on savory sometimes 0:03:37.480 --> 0:03:41.960 like James James Brown being arrested. Things like that when 0:03:42.040 --> 0:03:43.760 James Brown he was doing a talk show and he 0:03:43.920 --> 0:03:47.560 was uh he drugs or something. He seemed to be 0:03:47.560 --> 0:03:50.280 in an altered state. Things like that that you know, 0:03:50.360 --> 0:03:53.240 we're all there's tons and tons of him on YouTube now. 0:03:54.560 --> 0:03:57.360 I think we've we've talked before about everything is terrible? 0:03:57.720 --> 0:04:01.240 Is is a show on you What's it's a YouTube 0:04:01.320 --> 0:04:03.880 channel and it goes beyond YouTube. But they do a 0:04:03.920 --> 0:04:07.440 lot of this where it's it's clips from films and 0:04:07.600 --> 0:04:11.920 like old like like weird Christian VHS tapes and either 0:04:12.040 --> 0:04:14.120 the kind of stuff that would just otherwise just be 0:04:14.360 --> 0:04:17.800 completely we just fall through the cracks of history. But 0:04:18.600 --> 0:04:21.760 you know, they keep it alive so that weekend, you know, 0:04:21.880 --> 0:04:24.320 find pleasure in it and laugh at it. Why is 0:04:24.400 --> 0:04:31.039 it that instructional training videos makes such fertile like ephemeral media. 0:04:32.120 --> 0:04:34.400 You know, I'm just making a supposition, but I think 0:04:34.480 --> 0:04:36.880 maybe because they're made sort of for such a narrow 0:04:36.920 --> 0:04:41.320 audience and often with such little money. Uh, I can 0:04:41.440 --> 0:04:43.920 just go onto archive dot org. There's or there's a 0:04:43.960 --> 0:04:46.799 great site called the A V Geeks that just curate 0:04:47.160 --> 0:04:51.560 that kind of stuff, old industrials and educational films and 0:04:51.760 --> 0:04:53.960 p s A S. I can just get lost on 0:04:54.040 --> 0:04:56.920 the rabbit hole of that stuff. It's so so bad 0:04:57.000 --> 0:04:59.880 and so good well because I guess like if you 0:05:00.120 --> 0:05:02.240 no skill goes into it, or like just a very 0:05:02.480 --> 0:05:04.520 small amount of skill like that in and of itself 0:05:04.600 --> 0:05:07.920 can be amusing. But then you have an instructional video 0:05:08.000 --> 0:05:12.560 like the famous shake Hands with Danger, which has fantastic 0:05:12.760 --> 0:05:18.239 and just almost the borderline offensive. Um, you know, graphic 0:05:18.320 --> 0:05:22.080 special effects for industrial injuries taking place, and you know 0:05:22.120 --> 0:05:24.800 it's out of keeping with the very amateur aspects of 0:05:24.839 --> 0:05:26.960 the rest of the production. Oh, it's like the the 0:05:27.040 --> 0:05:30.920 old high school chemistry lab safety videos that everybody loves 0:05:30.960 --> 0:05:33.600 so much, which just would they had the special effects 0:05:33.640 --> 0:05:36.600 for like shoving the broken glass speaker into your hand. 0:05:37.880 --> 0:05:40.400 And so I think, yeah, all of that in at 0:05:40.480 --> 0:05:43.240 least this particular definition. It's like those things all would 0:05:44.080 --> 0:05:46.960 very easily because they you know, maybe because of the 0:05:47.040 --> 0:05:50.839 narrow audience or because of maybe a bunch of different 0:05:50.880 --> 0:05:54.880 reasons would not stand the test of time unless someone 0:05:56.040 --> 0:06:00.360 only because somebody said, hey, this is different, this is 0:06:00.520 --> 0:06:04.480 this is for some reason worth saving. Right, Yeah, Well 0:06:04.560 --> 0:06:08.400 that's interesting to think about, Like what are the evolutionary 0:06:08.520 --> 0:06:11.600 traits in media that allow certain pieces of media to 0:06:11.720 --> 0:06:15.240 survive whereas most other pieces of ephemeral media from their 0:06:15.279 --> 0:06:18.440 time fade away. It seems like a very strong, uh 0:06:19.080 --> 0:06:24.040 criterion of selection is like ironic comedic value. But it can't. 0:06:24.080 --> 0:06:26.200 But it can't be just that, right, There are other 0:06:26.400 --> 0:06:29.360 things that cause a piece of you know, what you 0:06:29.440 --> 0:06:32.080 would have thought would be ephemeral media to get saved, right, 0:06:32.120 --> 0:06:34.160 I mean, like what are There's some things I know 0:06:34.279 --> 0:06:37.080 you've talked about where you you uh you talked about 0:06:37.120 --> 0:06:40.680 like old home recordings that aren't particularly funny or anything. 0:06:41.080 --> 0:06:43.760 They just have a kind of soothing sonic quality to 0:06:43.920 --> 0:06:45.960 them that you can't stop listening to. Am I right 0:06:45.960 --> 0:06:48.640 about that? Sometimes they certainly are funny, But yeah, I 0:06:48.720 --> 0:06:54.760 mean I have really um, the very first couple of 0:06:54.800 --> 0:06:57.279 minutes of the pilot episode of this that I pitched 0:06:57.320 --> 0:06:59.560 it with, and that is the first epis just called 0:06:59.600 --> 0:07:03.840 pilot in the in the feed. Uh is it's about 0:07:03.839 --> 0:07:06.280 a hundred and sixteen seconds. I think of just a 0:07:06.320 --> 0:07:08.000 family recording that we don't know any of the people. 0:07:08.040 --> 0:07:09.840 And there's an Uncle Jack and there's a little girl 0:07:09.920 --> 0:07:13.360 named Gail, and uh does it talk about shoes? Do 0:07:13.400 --> 0:07:15.800 you remember that show Uncle Jack your shoes? There's a 0:07:15.800 --> 0:07:20.520 little boy named Brian and there it's it's it's it's 0:07:20.560 --> 0:07:22.880 so unique because there, I mean, it was an actual 0:07:22.960 --> 0:07:25.320 moment in time, right, it was an actual people gather 0:07:25.320 --> 0:07:26.840 around a living room or a kitchen or something, not 0:07:26.960 --> 0:07:28.760 from a movie or anything. No, no, no, it's just 0:07:28.880 --> 0:07:30.960 a it's it's it was a real to real that 0:07:31.080 --> 0:07:34.200 this um, this collector named Bob Purse, who just for 0:07:34.600 --> 0:07:37.120 you know, his own personal interest and to share them 0:07:37.120 --> 0:07:42.840 with other people, goes to giant antique sales and you know, 0:07:42.960 --> 0:07:46.400 a femork also all kinds and buys anything that's like 0:07:46.560 --> 0:07:50.680 unlabeled or is you know, has an interesting description on it, 0:07:50.880 --> 0:07:53.880 or it's just interesting. And someone looks old real to 0:07:53.960 --> 0:07:57.760 real tape specifically other things too acetates Home record at 0:07:57.800 --> 0:08:01.040 seventy eight of all kinds of odds and ends, but 0:08:01.080 --> 0:08:04.160 specifically real and really to tape is what he's zeroed 0:08:04.160 --> 0:08:07.920 in on um and so this real, real tape probably 0:08:07.960 --> 0:08:12.600 from the sixties, AH, thought to be recorded around when 0:08:12.680 --> 0:08:15.720 that Illinois I guess, or yeah, when Neck Illinois I 0:08:15.720 --> 0:08:17.960 think is right because it's because of I guess of 0:08:18.040 --> 0:08:22.520 where he bought it. Ah. That's this yes, specific moment 0:08:22.560 --> 0:08:26.640 where the uncle Jack has brought over his tape recorder 0:08:27.040 --> 0:08:29.600 to this family and the kids are going trying to 0:08:29.600 --> 0:08:31.480 get kids to say there, you know, say words on it, 0:08:31.720 --> 0:08:33.400 you know, tell them about the school that goes to 0:08:33.480 --> 0:08:35.839 and the friends they have, and the little girls shy 0:08:35.920 --> 0:08:37.679 at first, but then she opens up a little bit 0:08:37.920 --> 0:08:39.880 and then the little kid, Brian, they're trying to get 0:08:39.920 --> 0:08:41.400 him to kind of say some of his first words, 0:08:41.480 --> 0:08:44.240 but he, of course won't because kids never do when 0:08:44.280 --> 0:08:46.160 you try to put the microphone in their face and 0:08:46.480 --> 0:08:50.040 now perform and starts shooting on the tape recorder. And 0:08:50.120 --> 0:08:51.920 it's just a little tiny tape that's not all that 0:08:52.040 --> 0:08:55.319 different than lots of other, you know, tapes, but it 0:08:55.480 --> 0:08:59.319 is like this one family, it's this real moment that 0:08:59.400 --> 0:09:02.640 we just have of Ye. I think I think part 0:09:02.640 --> 0:09:04.280 of the appeal of that that cliff is just how 0:09:04.640 --> 0:09:07.679 how how honest it feels like you just there's no 0:09:07.800 --> 0:09:10.199 doubting that this is a you know, an echo from 0:09:10.400 --> 0:09:13.800 from the past, from this actual family moment. And and 0:09:13.840 --> 0:09:15.679 then at the same time it is it is kind 0:09:15.679 --> 0:09:17.800 of haunting, like in a good way, like that that 0:09:17.920 --> 0:09:22.160 kind of like you know, nostalgic haunting feeling that we 0:09:22.240 --> 0:09:24.600 get when we listen to something that is either an 0:09:24.840 --> 0:09:29.120 an actual fragment of media history or if something or 0:09:29.160 --> 0:09:31.920 if we have something like say, you know, instantly think 0:09:31.960 --> 0:09:35.400 of the music say Boards of Canada, that that are 0:09:35.400 --> 0:09:39.240 able to channel that level of sonic nostalgia and have 0:09:39.480 --> 0:09:42.920 the same effect on us. It's this isolated bubble of 0:09:43.080 --> 0:09:47.480 unself conscious joy that is infectious because it doesn't feel 0:09:47.559 --> 0:09:50.079 like a performance, which is funny because I guess it 0:09:50.160 --> 0:09:51.880 is a performance. I mean, the very thing is that 0:09:52.240 --> 0:09:55.160 they had the tape recorder running, But it doesn't feel 0:09:55.200 --> 0:09:57.200 like the kind of performance were used to, the kind 0:09:57.240 --> 0:10:00.840 of like a professional performance. We were not the intended audience, yeah, 0:10:01.040 --> 0:10:04.040 you know it was the family was the intended audience. 0:10:04.160 --> 0:10:06.240 And uh and and here it has escaped it. It's 0:10:06.280 --> 0:10:09.400 kind of like a voyager probe, right, like leaving the 0:10:09.640 --> 0:10:12.000 solar system and being picked up by some other force. 0:10:13.040 --> 0:10:16.160 There's certainly magic and it I mean and I hear 0:10:16.200 --> 0:10:19.120 that in all kinds. I mean, the the last episode 0:10:19.160 --> 0:10:21.200 that we did of the season's the ten parts seasons 0:10:21.240 --> 0:10:24.199 all out now, uh, the last episodes called taped over, 0:10:24.760 --> 0:10:28.840 and we play family recordings from my family, my wife's family, 0:10:29.280 --> 0:10:33.040 my best friends family and uh our producer and producer 0:10:33.120 --> 0:10:36.120 and an ephemeral uh Matt Frederick who you know from 0:10:36.480 --> 0:10:39.079 stuff I don't want you to know and other things. UM, 0:10:40.120 --> 0:10:46.400 really fascinating take. He has a his grandfather recorded his mom, 0:10:46.559 --> 0:10:51.240 Matt's mom and and Matt's uncle on a dick to 0:10:51.360 --> 0:10:55.320 belt in which is incredibly early to have a home 0:10:55.400 --> 0:10:59.760 recording from because recording technology was just mostly in professional settings, 0:11:00.040 --> 0:11:03.480 you know, until really the sixties, when real to reel 0:11:03.600 --> 0:11:07.439 became much you know, cheaper, and people could afford to 0:11:07.520 --> 0:11:10.559 get them in their homes. Um, and it's the same, 0:11:10.640 --> 0:11:13.400 it's it's uh, that's grandfather trying to get first words 0:11:13.440 --> 0:11:17.199 from his mom. And mom of course like doesn't want 0:11:17.200 --> 0:11:18.520 to play along because she's a baby and she's not 0:11:18.520 --> 0:11:20.520 gonna perform just because you put a microphone in front 0:11:20.520 --> 0:11:23.679 of her, starts crying, starts batting, the microphone around. I 0:11:25.080 --> 0:11:29.920 this last weekend, I was with my my nieces and 0:11:30.000 --> 0:11:32.599 nephews from Phoenix. They were over here and I was 0:11:32.800 --> 0:11:35.280 visiting with them, and I had this old tape recorder 0:11:35.360 --> 0:11:36.959 from the eighties and I was showing them how to 0:11:37.080 --> 0:11:41.320 use it. And instantly there, you know, I can sometimes 0:11:41.360 --> 0:11:43.280 not get them to look away from a screen, you know, 0:11:43.360 --> 0:11:46.720 and they just they have a different childhood than we had. 0:11:47.559 --> 0:11:50.959 But instantly, yes, they say, you know something in the 0:11:51.000 --> 0:11:53.319 tape recorder, the shots they don't want to perform. I 0:11:53.480 --> 0:11:55.719 let them hit the buttons, rewind it back. See the 0:11:55.760 --> 0:11:59.280 tape has been hit play and they hear themselves say 0:11:59.360 --> 0:12:02.600 you know, hi, I'm Brooks Savit or whatever. And they're 0:12:02.840 --> 0:12:04.959 mesmerized and they don't want to they don't want to 0:12:04.960 --> 0:12:06.719 put it down. You know. It's like, you have to 0:12:06.720 --> 0:12:08.839 be careful this, this is an old thing from the eighties. 0:12:08.920 --> 0:12:10.600 You have to you have to give it a little 0:12:10.600 --> 0:12:13.120 bit of a more grace than you know, maybe your 0:12:13.200 --> 0:12:15.719 iPad that's, you know, got this fancy case on it. 0:12:16.240 --> 0:12:22.959 But I I think that there is I think there 0:12:23.080 --> 0:12:25.719 is real magic and something like that. And so I 0:12:25.760 --> 0:12:30.040 don't know if it's intrinsic in the analog media itself, 0:12:30.800 --> 0:12:32.559 or if I'm just nostalgic for it, or if it's 0:12:33.080 --> 0:12:35.719 some kind of combination of those things. But there is 0:12:35.880 --> 0:12:38.800 there's something there that cuts across. I guess that's what 0:12:38.880 --> 0:12:40.760 I'm trying to say. Now, you had a pre existing 0:12:41.200 --> 0:12:44.040 interest in all of this, of course, I wonder is 0:12:44.080 --> 0:12:46.480 there is there a particular piece of of of ephemera 0:12:46.960 --> 0:12:49.880 that kind of you know, inspired you to put together 0:12:50.000 --> 0:12:51.800 the show? And then is there an example of a 0:12:51.840 --> 0:12:54.559 piece of a femor that you discovered in putting the 0:12:54.640 --> 0:13:00.280 show together that really struck a chord with you? Lots um? 0:13:01.120 --> 0:13:03.840 But that that first tape that show Uncle Jack your shoes, 0:13:03.840 --> 0:13:05.719 those hundred and sixteen seconds were there what the show 0:13:05.800 --> 0:13:08.719 is built around? The whole show? Uh? You know, our 0:13:08.760 --> 0:13:11.280 producer Tristan McNeil and I were at a bar after 0:13:11.320 --> 0:13:13.240 work one day pitching ideas back and forth because we 0:13:13.280 --> 0:13:16.280 knew we wanted to do something, and Uh, I was like, well, 0:13:16.280 --> 0:13:18.920 I know this this tape in this collector Bob purse, 0:13:19.480 --> 0:13:22.400 and there's something there and so it was kind of 0:13:22.480 --> 0:13:24.440 trying to put my finger on that I might still 0:13:24.440 --> 0:13:26.800 be working on that part of it, and then your 0:13:26.840 --> 0:13:29.280 other question is something you discovered like some bit of 0:13:29.320 --> 0:13:31.959 a him or that emerged that that that you it 0:13:32.080 --> 0:13:34.440 was new to you during the production of the series. 0:13:34.480 --> 0:13:37.559 It's been so much new to me. Um. One of 0:13:37.640 --> 0:13:41.920 the most interesting UH has been learning about the Dumont 0:13:41.960 --> 0:13:45.480 Television network, so at the very beginning of television when 0:13:45.480 --> 0:13:47.439 it kind of gets out of his experimental phase and 0:13:47.600 --> 0:13:50.120 goes commercial, which is basically like right at the end 0:13:50.120 --> 0:13:54.679 of World War two. Um, there's four networks, just for 0:13:55.240 --> 0:13:58.320 four networks and you know that get little affiliates all 0:13:58.360 --> 0:14:02.160 over the country and three them are still around ABC, NBC, CBS, 0:14:02.520 --> 0:14:06.480 and the fourth was Dumont, and Dumont was just maybe 0:14:06.520 --> 0:14:08.480 a little bit more low budget. It was kind of 0:14:08.559 --> 0:14:14.440 punk rock and just wacky stuff. I mean, early TV 0:14:14.520 --> 0:14:16.840 was really wacky because it was all live and they 0:14:16.880 --> 0:14:20.360 were shows and stuff. There were some puppet shows. Yeah, 0:14:20.560 --> 0:14:22.560 they were you know, figuring out a lot of the things. 0:14:22.640 --> 0:14:25.000 And some of the things that got figured out on 0:14:25.120 --> 0:14:28.240 Dumont are are you know, translate to today. I mean, 0:14:28.280 --> 0:14:32.720 they were the first network to do daytime television because radio. 0:14:33.320 --> 0:14:35.960 Those are the three companies were all radio companies. ABC, NBC, CBS. 0:14:35.960 --> 0:14:41.480 All radio companies had big daytime radio soap operas and 0:14:41.560 --> 0:14:43.320 they didn't really want to cut into that business that 0:14:43.400 --> 0:14:46.800 had been paying their bills for a long time. But 0:14:47.000 --> 0:14:49.240 Dumont was the first network that went into that daytime 0:14:49.240 --> 0:14:51.640 broadcast because like, we don't have any income coming in there, 0:14:51.720 --> 0:14:54.800 and we're ready to take our color patterns down off 0:14:54.840 --> 0:14:58.920 the screen and put something on. And so, you know, 0:14:59.000 --> 0:15:02.440 they had a show called Okay Mother, a show for moms, 0:15:02.840 --> 0:15:08.080 you know, you know, certainly couched in the gender attitudes 0:15:08.080 --> 0:15:12.040 of the time. UM that was you know, pretty similar 0:15:12.080 --> 0:15:14.600 to something that you would see like the Today's Show 0:15:14.680 --> 0:15:19.520 or something now live studio audience playing you know, games, 0:15:19.800 --> 0:15:23.800 giving away prizes, bringing on guests and sort of just 0:15:24.040 --> 0:15:30.320 light goofy energy to it. Um. So, you know, to 0:15:30.560 --> 0:15:33.760 to wrap up the two months, I meant, they were 0:15:33.800 --> 0:15:37.960 on the there for just a decade, something like twenty 0:15:38.040 --> 0:15:43.840 thousand broadcasts or hours of broadcast and I think three 0:15:44.120 --> 0:15:47.880 d or so individual episodes have survived, mostly held by 0:15:47.960 --> 0:15:52.880 like individual collectors like maybe someone who's you know relative 0:15:52.920 --> 0:15:58.440 worked at Dumont, or you know, the National Archives, uh, 0:15:59.040 --> 0:16:00.920 the Museum of televi and of Radio maybe has a 0:16:00.960 --> 0:16:04.880 few of them, and most of it's just gone. It's 0:16:04.880 --> 0:16:07.160 just gone because it was there was no there real 0:16:07.200 --> 0:16:09.280 there was no recording then, and it wasn't even meant 0:16:09.320 --> 0:16:12.000 to last forever. The only way that they could record 0:16:12.120 --> 0:16:16.480 it was doing something making a kinescope, which is you 0:16:16.600 --> 0:16:20.680 take a film camera and you film the screen that's 0:16:20.680 --> 0:16:22.560 playing the television. And the only reason they would do 0:16:22.640 --> 0:16:24.480 that is so they could take that film, candle this 0:16:24.560 --> 0:16:27.160 film cans and send it to you know, their California 0:16:27.200 --> 0:16:29.920 affiliate or something that wasn't connected to the Coaxio cable. 0:16:30.840 --> 0:16:34.760 And even those they wouldn't really save because there was 0:16:34.840 --> 0:16:37.200 no reruns back then, right, there was no intention to 0:16:37.280 --> 0:16:40.840 reuse that. So it's just that active curation someone saying, 0:16:41.560 --> 0:16:43.440 you know, either by choice or by accident, hey, I'm 0:16:43.440 --> 0:16:46.040 gonna hold onto this that we get to see any 0:16:46.080 --> 0:16:48.240 of it, and kind of dip our toes into that 0:16:49.160 --> 0:16:51.760 that moment of history. Well you also get a sense, 0:16:51.800 --> 0:16:54.200 I mean, no wonder if you'd think, like, did the 0:16:54.280 --> 0:16:57.440 creators not even think of it really as a an 0:16:57.560 --> 0:17:00.760 artistic product, I mean something that they would want to 0:17:00.840 --> 0:17:03.520 be remembered. It was something more like to fill time. 0:17:04.440 --> 0:17:06.720 I think there's a mix, and I think, yeah, I 0:17:06.760 --> 0:17:09.160 think that's one of the inherent things in television. Probably 0:17:09.520 --> 0:17:14.960 there's certainly were um artists and very creative people. I 0:17:14.960 --> 0:17:17.440 mean Jackie Gleeson got his break on Dumont for instance, 0:17:18.160 --> 0:17:22.399 a fascinating shows that they did, a show that was 0:17:22.800 --> 0:17:27.120 all it was called The Plain Clothes Men and all 0:17:27.520 --> 0:17:32.960 told from the perspective of a detective like from his eyes, yeah, 0:17:34.800 --> 0:17:37.920 town live single camera shot, yeah, and you see his 0:17:38.040 --> 0:17:41.160 hands and it's you know, zoom in on a bullet 0:17:41.200 --> 0:17:43.640 hole on the wall, or hold a piece of paper 0:17:43.680 --> 0:17:46.000 and take a magnifying glass and pull out of single 0:17:46.080 --> 0:17:50.400 line what and that's all lives. They'd have to stage 0:17:50.520 --> 0:17:53.040 all of that out in advance so that they could 0:17:53.080 --> 0:17:54.919 know where to go and win. Well, it was all 0:17:55.000 --> 0:17:57.520 live to a point, so almost all of it was live, 0:17:57.560 --> 0:18:00.040 but then they would play out sometimes they would the 0:18:00.160 --> 0:18:02.000 way to a sequence that actually what edited. It was 0:18:02.160 --> 0:18:04.800 an early example of putting editing on television because editing 0:18:04.840 --> 0:18:07.320 wasn't a thing on early television. But yeah, primarily that 0:18:07.400 --> 0:18:10.800 show was all told live. And there's one episode left 0:18:11.080 --> 0:18:14.159 and it doesn't circulate. It's in the uh Museum of 0:18:14.200 --> 0:18:18.080 Television radio. I'm hoping to make my way up there 0:18:18.119 --> 0:18:19.240 at some point and see it. I've just seen a 0:18:19.280 --> 0:18:22.639 little clip of it. You know. I think back just 0:18:22.880 --> 0:18:26.960 on the television from like my childhood and especially junior high. 0:18:27.200 --> 0:18:30.680 You know where you're you're videotaping a lot of television, 0:18:30.800 --> 0:18:34.679 and I remember like painstakingly removing commercials. Uh. And then 0:18:34.720 --> 0:18:36.679 other times just you know, you were you were recording 0:18:36.720 --> 0:18:38.040 a movie you have, you went to bed or something, 0:18:38.160 --> 0:18:40.320 so you just let the commercials, you know, take place, 0:18:40.920 --> 0:18:44.280 and inevitably, I think like taped over and or loss 0:18:44.359 --> 0:18:47.720 or destroyed all those tapes and and and now I 0:18:47.760 --> 0:18:49.840 would I would love to just be able to like 0:18:49.920 --> 0:18:53.520 sit down and watch say an episode of Mystery Science 0:18:53.520 --> 0:18:56.960 Theater three thousand from the nineties with all the commercials, 0:18:57.480 --> 0:19:00.720 just so I could experience that again. Uh, the bumpers 0:19:01.359 --> 0:19:03.440 on stuff like the Sci Fi Channel, you know, it's 0:19:03.480 --> 0:19:06.159 like that's those little details are are some of the 0:19:06.240 --> 0:19:08.440 things you grow the most most doubt and nostalgic for. 0:19:08.600 --> 0:19:10.520 You know, I watched the first time I ever watched 0:19:10.680 --> 0:19:13.840 Star Trek. The Next Generation was my My dad was 0:19:13.960 --> 0:19:16.520 a is and I think I inherit a lot of 0:19:16.560 --> 0:19:21.080 this from him a archivist, you know, tape at all, 0:19:21.680 --> 0:19:25.480 label at all. Yeah, you know, uh, and he still 0:19:25.560 --> 0:19:27.520 has a closet full of VHS types that are just 0:19:27.680 --> 0:19:32.080 sort of degrading there because I mean, uh, the the 0:19:32.240 --> 0:19:34.720 experience you describe with like cutting out the commercials is 0:19:34.840 --> 0:19:38.760 something that I don't think you're younger listeners probably will 0:19:38.840 --> 0:19:40.639 relate to it all because it's just such a it's 0:19:40.640 --> 0:19:42.159 such a relic of the past. But that was an 0:19:42.320 --> 0:19:44.960 important thing then, because it was this feeling like not 0:19:45.080 --> 0:19:48.840 only am I taping uh the like the television edited 0:19:49.800 --> 0:19:52.920 version of Aliens, but but I am going to preserve 0:19:53.000 --> 0:19:57.480 it forever, and so the cut has to be flawless. Wait, 0:19:57.600 --> 0:19:59.280 so did you think do you do the thing where 0:19:59.320 --> 0:20:02.720 you stopped recording while it was recording when the commercial 0:20:02.840 --> 0:20:06.080 came on? You thought, positive, recording while the commercial was 0:20:06.160 --> 0:20:09.399 on and then unposit When I remember, I was so 0:20:09.600 --> 0:20:12.200 proud of myself that I had put together on one tape. 0:20:12.240 --> 0:20:13.960 So since it was on one tape, it must have 0:20:14.000 --> 0:20:17.119 been in the terrible low quality extended play mode on 0:20:17.200 --> 0:20:20.840 the tapes. But I got the entire Star Wars trilogy 0:20:21.359 --> 0:20:24.920 with all the commercials removed from from one time when 0:20:24.960 --> 0:20:27.240 it aired on T N T or something like that, 0:20:27.400 --> 0:20:29.639 and uh and I was like, this is that I 0:20:29.720 --> 0:20:31.760 have done such good work here and I wore that 0:20:31.880 --> 0:20:34.879 tape out. Oh God, that that's another thing, just the 0:20:34.960 --> 0:20:38.399 wearing out of the tape, like the quality. One of 0:20:38.480 --> 0:20:40.320 my favorite films still one of my favorite films, but 0:20:40.400 --> 0:20:42.600 one of my favorite films growing up was was Jim 0:20:42.680 --> 0:20:46.560 Hinson's Labyrinth and our copy we watched it so many 0:20:46.640 --> 0:20:49.000 times that it it was like damaged and we had 0:20:49.040 --> 0:20:51.240 to get repaired. I I didn't even know how that 0:20:51.320 --> 0:20:54.000 was the thing, but we took the tape, somebody repaired it, 0:20:54.440 --> 0:20:58.119 and it just sound warped forever. But now when I 0:20:58.320 --> 0:21:01.920 watched like a Labyrinth off of streaming service or something, 0:21:02.000 --> 0:21:04.640 or off of DVD, it's just not the same because 0:21:04.640 --> 0:21:07.320 it's not warped and weird. Like the audio quality I 0:21:07.359 --> 0:21:10.359 grew used to uh so in in the effemeray that 0:21:10.359 --> 0:21:12.159 you've looked at in the show, like how much is 0:21:12.280 --> 0:21:15.399 the decay and how much is it about the the 0:21:15.640 --> 0:21:19.560 errors in the quality? Oh? I mean yeah, I'm an 0:21:19.600 --> 0:21:22.000 audio I'm an audio file. I'm a total audio gig. 0:21:22.040 --> 0:21:25.880 I mean specifically for like low five stuff, I've always 0:21:26.080 --> 0:21:30.680 collected old toy tape recorders and stuff like that. So yeah, 0:21:30.920 --> 0:21:34.920 the artifacts, that stuff is a gold mine for a 0:21:35.000 --> 0:21:38.040 sound designer. I mean, just if you can find cracks 0:21:38.080 --> 0:21:41.560 and records and skips and things and warps and sounds 0:21:41.640 --> 0:21:44.560 dumping and leaping, and I love all that stuff. This 0:21:44.680 --> 0:21:47.200 comes back to something that we've talked about on the 0:21:47.240 --> 0:21:50.400 show a good bit before, like when we talk about say, 0:21:51.200 --> 0:21:54.159 historical sites of interest, you know, like an ancient temple 0:21:54.400 --> 0:21:57.200 or something like that that is deteriorating due to the 0:21:57.280 --> 0:22:02.400 elements or all that, Like, um, should you restore things 0:22:02.560 --> 0:22:06.480 like that? Or or if you know, the modern world 0:22:06.520 --> 0:22:09.680 has come to know an ancient temple in its partially 0:22:09.760 --> 0:22:13.680 deteriorated and dilapidated state, should you just allow it to 0:22:13.840 --> 0:22:17.680 continue deteriorating or should you try to freeze it as 0:22:17.760 --> 0:22:20.200 it was at a certain point in time and say, Okay, 0:22:20.240 --> 0:22:23.440 all the deterioration up to this point will allow, but 0:22:23.640 --> 0:22:27.560 deterioration after that we want to prevent or I can't 0:22:27.560 --> 0:22:31.240 remember if we I said allowing to deteriorate or restoring, 0:22:31.320 --> 0:22:34.040 but it seems like in any case, you're no matter 0:22:34.119 --> 0:22:36.840 which choice you make, you're like exerting your will on 0:22:37.240 --> 0:22:40.720 on on on the form it takes. And the same 0:22:40.800 --> 0:22:43.639 thing happens with media totally. Like I mean, media changes 0:22:43.720 --> 0:22:48.200 over time, It collects artifacts, it collects changes, it collects glitches. Um, 0:22:48.680 --> 0:22:51.240 and I wonder, well, one thing I wonder I guess 0:22:51.280 --> 0:22:54.040 is are we losing that quality in the digital world. 0:22:55.280 --> 0:23:06.120 M hmm, it's sorry, terrible tangent. There's just no, there's 0:23:06.200 --> 0:23:11.040 just a lot there, uh, losing in the digital world. 0:23:11.200 --> 0:23:13.879 I mean the safe answer is yes, because we're losing 0:23:13.920 --> 0:23:16.200 most things in the well No, I just mean, like 0:23:16.640 --> 0:23:19.479 I mean, obviously there's like a huge thing where like, um, 0:23:20.560 --> 0:23:24.280 there there's so much great ephemeira from the ancient world. 0:23:24.400 --> 0:23:27.280 You know that like a huge part of how we 0:23:27.400 --> 0:23:29.960 know about the past is from like capturing bits of 0:23:30.000 --> 0:23:32.680 ephemera and interesting things, like you know, when you get 0:23:32.720 --> 0:23:35.640 a copy of an ancient manuscript that's a thousand years old, 0:23:35.960 --> 0:23:38.680 you might not even know what the original text in 0:23:38.760 --> 0:23:41.320 the manuscript was because it's got things written in the 0:23:41.400 --> 0:23:44.040 margins on it, and you don't know if that's supposed 0:23:44.080 --> 0:23:49.280 to be part of the text that was the Perpendicularly 0:23:49.440 --> 0:23:53.040 over the other talents, we have an older episode of 0:23:53.080 --> 0:23:55.680 stuffable in mind about that, yeah, and and so like 0:23:55.920 --> 0:23:58.399 and and they didn't realize at the time that, like, 0:23:58.560 --> 0:24:02.920 you know, whatever mong in, you know, Prague or wherever it. Like, 0:24:03.160 --> 0:24:05.880 I didn't know that his copy of this thing would 0:24:05.920 --> 0:24:08.960 be the only copy, would be the only one that 0:24:09.119 --> 0:24:11.800 future generations have, and so like they wouldn't be able 0:24:11.840 --> 0:24:14.120 to tell if the notes in the margins were supposed 0:24:14.119 --> 0:24:16.439 to be part of the text or his own thoughts 0:24:16.520 --> 0:24:19.760 about the text or whatever. And uh, and like you 0:24:19.880 --> 0:24:22.399 never know, really, you never know if like the copy 0:24:22.520 --> 0:24:25.000 that you're holding of something is going to end up 0:24:25.040 --> 0:24:28.600 being the copy of reference for future generations, or if 0:24:28.640 --> 0:24:31.120 it's just going to fade and be destroyed like most 0:24:31.200 --> 0:24:33.760 other things are. The digital world that seems kind of 0:24:33.760 --> 0:24:38.000 different because like copies are made at scale, perfectly all 0:24:38.119 --> 0:24:40.359 over the place, And I wonder if we're kind of 0:24:40.480 --> 0:24:44.240 losing some of that magic because of it. I mean, 0:24:44.280 --> 0:24:49.359 it's it's it's twofold at least, right. Uh, there is 0:24:49.440 --> 0:24:58.440 a way in which something physical analog is much more concrete. 0:24:59.280 --> 0:25:01.720 I mean, you can the lifespan of it. You can say, 0:25:01.800 --> 0:25:04.520 oh my, I can see the yellowing pages of this book, 0:25:04.520 --> 0:25:06.600 but I can still flip through them, as opposed to 0:25:06.840 --> 0:25:08.879 like if a zero in a one get flipped in 0:25:08.920 --> 0:25:12.640 the binary code, that thing's gone. Uh you know, if 0:25:12.720 --> 0:25:17.560 it's uploaded in some cloud service that gets hacked, it's gone. Uh. 0:25:18.720 --> 0:25:23.360 So there's a way in which analog things I hate 0:25:23.400 --> 0:25:26.719 to say permanent, because I don't think anything is permanent, particularly, 0:25:26.840 --> 0:25:31.840 I think everything has transience at a different scale. Yeah, 0:25:32.680 --> 0:25:34.679 that's that's how you start feeling if you look at 0:25:34.720 --> 0:25:37.920 it too much, at least me. Um. But there's a 0:25:37.960 --> 0:25:42.800 way that that material thing feels a lot like it 0:25:42.880 --> 0:25:46.560 has more launchevy to me than the digital thing, which 0:25:46.640 --> 0:25:49.440 is maybe contrary to the way that uh, you know, 0:25:49.520 --> 0:25:52.040 I saw it before that it's easiest to see it. 0:25:52.480 --> 0:25:53.600 I mean, I'll tell you one of the one of 0:25:53.680 --> 0:25:57.520 the great things about more and more things being digitized, 0:25:57.520 --> 0:26:00.600 because not everything is digitized, far from it, right, Uh, 0:26:00.880 --> 0:26:03.480 But like this show where we do I don't know, 0:26:03.680 --> 0:26:06.720 I've never counted, but like a hundred and fifty cues 0:26:06.760 --> 0:26:10.560 an episode of different sound bites and pieces of weird 0:26:10.600 --> 0:26:13.440 old movies and little audio clips and all things small 0:26:13.480 --> 0:26:17.560 over the place would not it would be next to impossible, 0:26:17.560 --> 0:26:21.880 were very very difficult in um an analog time where 0:26:21.920 --> 0:26:25.119 I'm like, I have wax cylinders in there, all kinds 0:26:25.160 --> 0:26:27.480 of all kinds of media that you know, imagine the 0:26:27.560 --> 0:26:29.920 library that we'd have to have here in the I 0:26:30.080 --> 0:26:32.520 heard offices for us to pull something like this off, 0:26:32.560 --> 0:26:33.879 but I can you know, it can just be you know, 0:26:34.400 --> 0:26:38.000 a dude sitting at his desk going archive dot org 0:26:39.440 --> 0:26:43.119 and uh, you know various other places. So I mean, 0:26:43.720 --> 0:26:45.920 I think that's pretty amazing. I'd love to, you know. 0:26:46.000 --> 0:26:48.200 I was just when we're saying, oh, the monk didn't 0:26:48.200 --> 0:26:49.760 know that this would be the one copy. I was thinking, 0:26:50.080 --> 0:26:53.480 what if Joe's perfect copy of the Star Wars trilogy 0:26:53.600 --> 0:26:55.480 was the one copy that we had then? No, I 0:26:55.560 --> 0:26:57.359 think about that kind of thing sometimes, but I mean 0:26:57.440 --> 0:26:59.880 I think that would be unlikely. Now there's so many 0:27:00.040 --> 0:27:03.400 digital copies and they're all over the place. But yeah, 0:27:03.520 --> 0:27:06.879 your copy to YouTube, Okay, I mean maybe doing you know, 0:27:06.960 --> 0:27:09.240 because well you know, another great example to go to 0:27:09.600 --> 0:27:12.200 go even to Star Wars is And this combines with 0:27:12.240 --> 0:27:14.000 the thing you were talking about, like a femeral TV 0:27:14.119 --> 0:27:17.280 broadcast when you watch the Star Wars Holiday special. I 0:27:17.320 --> 0:27:20.200 assume you've seen it. I have, Yeah, I have thanks, 0:27:20.240 --> 0:27:24.119 Thanks Dad. The Star Wars Holiday Special is that you know, 0:27:24.480 --> 0:27:26.720 Star Wars is the biggest movie in the world, and 0:27:26.840 --> 0:27:30.239 you know it's the biggest media sensation ever. And then 0:27:30.280 --> 0:27:32.399 they're like, well, let's do a TV special. But the 0:27:32.480 --> 0:27:36.040 TV special is just phoned in and you almost get 0:27:36.080 --> 0:27:40.480 the sense that it's well, not the animated The animated 0:27:40.840 --> 0:27:44.040 short that introduced a Bubba fet to the world is fabulous, 0:27:45.440 --> 0:27:50.159 like this French animation style. You're right about that, but 0:27:50.240 --> 0:27:51.920 I mean, like the main part of it, like the 0:27:52.000 --> 0:27:55.080 actors are staring at the floor, they're just waiting for 0:27:55.200 --> 0:27:59.160 any basically a Star Wars theme variety show exactly. Uh. 0:27:59.440 --> 0:28:01.360 And it's great fun to watch now for all these 0:28:01.400 --> 0:28:04.080 great ephemeral qualities and to see the old commercials and 0:28:04.119 --> 0:28:05.879 all that. But that's one of the great things. Like 0:28:06.000 --> 0:28:09.920 even the version you get through riff tracks is it 0:28:10.200 --> 0:28:13.600 can it retains the commercials, that's part. And but they 0:28:13.640 --> 0:28:16.760 have to specify which one because like there weren't many 0:28:16.840 --> 0:28:20.080 recordings of it available. They never officially distributed it, Like 0:28:20.320 --> 0:28:22.600 you know, Lucasfilm wasn't like here come by the Star 0:28:22.680 --> 0:28:25.080 Wars Holiday Special. You had to get it from a 0:28:25.240 --> 0:28:29.000 copy made from some version that somebody taped off of 0:28:29.119 --> 0:28:32.520 TV and like Minnesota or somewhere, and uh and I 0:28:32.600 --> 0:28:34.920 think there were a few versions in circulation, but I 0:28:34.960 --> 0:28:38.240 don't know if those people thought that like their version 0:28:38.320 --> 0:28:41.320 they were taping off of TV with the local commercials 0:28:41.440 --> 0:28:44.560 they were seeing, would be like the would be the 0:28:44.920 --> 0:28:47.840 version that ends up being you know, on riff tracks 0:28:48.000 --> 0:28:50.760 that you know, decades later people all around the world 0:28:50.800 --> 0:28:53.240 would be watching and laughing at I was gonna say 0:28:53.280 --> 0:28:56.240 that with Star Trek the Next Generation, the way that 0:28:56.320 --> 0:29:01.480 I first saw it was all taped from Michigan television, 0:29:01.480 --> 0:29:04.120 whatever Michigan station it was running on, and every ad 0:29:04.160 --> 0:29:08.040 break they had the newscast, the local Detroit newscast every time, 0:29:08.120 --> 0:29:09.880 so I would you know, hear whatever was going on 0:29:10.120 --> 0:29:12.640 in Detroit in the eighties every time they would cut 0:29:12.680 --> 0:29:16.440 to commercial. So I guess, yeah, I I've definitely developed 0:29:16.440 --> 0:29:18.280 a love for that early on. That's in the Star 0:29:18.320 --> 0:29:21.080 Wars Holiday special to where they've got the throws like 0:29:21.240 --> 0:29:23.920 teasing the later local news things. What do they keep saying, 0:29:24.200 --> 0:29:28.280 like fighting the frizzies at eleven. I don't remember that part. 0:29:28.360 --> 0:29:30.480 This is a thing about like bad hair days or 0:29:30.520 --> 0:29:34.000 something they're gonna have an expert. Come on, well, you know, 0:29:34.080 --> 0:29:36.480 let's let's bring it back to h to ephemeral. Though 0:29:36.840 --> 0:29:39.080 you have a you have brought a clip with us. Uh. 0:29:39.480 --> 0:29:41.440 It's almost like this is the Tonight show and you're 0:29:41.520 --> 0:29:43.400 our guest, and so would you like to set up 0:29:43.800 --> 0:29:46.520 this clip for our listeners? Sure? So. This is um 0:29:46.960 --> 0:29:50.320 Professor of English and Material Culture Studies at the University 0:29:50.320 --> 0:29:53.720 of Delaware. I introduced her earlier, Sarah Wasserman. She's basically 0:29:53.800 --> 0:29:55.960 I think of her as the ephemer teacher. She's writing 0:29:56.000 --> 0:29:59.200 a book called The Death of Things. It's all about 0:29:59.800 --> 0:30:01.440 a phemera. You know, I don't. I don't want to 0:30:01.600 --> 0:30:04.400 oversimplify her thesis, but the idea of it is that 0:30:04.920 --> 0:30:08.200 telling stories about if ema and telling stories that involve 0:30:08.280 --> 0:30:12.000 if phemera does more than just showing you a phemera. 0:30:12.880 --> 0:30:16.960 It helps fill in the gaps and do more work 0:30:17.040 --> 0:30:19.040 to transport you back to that place or time or 0:30:19.080 --> 0:30:22.520 whatever thing that you know is lost now. So she 0:30:23.040 --> 0:30:26.160 in her book, I think she writes about like They're 0:30:26.160 --> 0:30:28.880 Great Gatsby. She references that in here and uh and 0:30:29.360 --> 0:30:33.560 a book like El Doctors, World's Fair Books, that piece 0:30:33.640 --> 0:30:35.920 of fiction specifically, she's writing about fiction coming from an 0:30:35.920 --> 0:30:41.800 English perspective. Um, how works of fiction can use if 0:30:41.840 --> 0:30:48.000 ema and intertwine them into their stories. Uh two, help 0:30:48.120 --> 0:30:50.960 transport you in time and space. Yeah, I think that's 0:30:51.040 --> 0:30:59.000 enough of a setup. Let's listen, Phemera. I think are 0:30:59.080 --> 0:31:01.640 especially moving because they seem to have their own life cycle. 0:31:02.040 --> 0:31:04.960 They're made, they're born, they enter circulation, they live, and 0:31:05.080 --> 0:31:08.560 then they die. We think of things. We think of 0:31:08.720 --> 0:31:11.880 matter as being the opposite of mortal. We think of 0:31:11.920 --> 0:31:13.840 it as being enduring. We think of it as being 0:31:13.880 --> 0:31:18.360 stable and inert. And ephemia have this kind of time scale, 0:31:18.400 --> 0:31:23.160 this temporal dimension that makes them seem mortal like us. 0:31:24.160 --> 0:31:26.000 I think that's part of the reason that authors find 0:31:26.040 --> 0:31:29.280 them meaningful. They can become proxy stand ins for humans 0:31:29.400 --> 0:31:33.560 or nations or communities. To make that more concrete, take 0:31:33.560 --> 0:31:40.480 an example, New York World's Fair was actually built on 0:31:41.320 --> 0:31:44.280 the Valley of Ashes, as Fitzgerald calls it. In the 0:31:44.320 --> 0:31:50.440 Great Gatsby five million dollar one land, they transform what 0:31:50.600 --> 0:31:55.360 is basically a dump into this bright, shining, gleaming future 0:31:55.400 --> 0:31:57.960 city and everyone goes, I mean really everyone in a 0:31:58.000 --> 0:32:01.200 way that we can't comprehend today. Everyone goes from Barana, 0:32:01.400 --> 0:32:05.680 come Countment, visiting by every mode of travel, every means 0:32:05.760 --> 0:32:09.040 of transportation. They arrived to view the marvels of the 0:32:09.080 --> 0:32:12.200 greatest ex position in history. You go and you say, oh, 0:32:12.280 --> 0:32:14.040 this is the world of tomorrow, this is the world 0:32:14.080 --> 0:32:17.080 as it could be. There are all kinds of problems 0:32:17.120 --> 0:32:19.479 with the vision that gets staged. I mean racial problems, 0:32:19.560 --> 0:32:23.080 nationalistic problems, colonial issues, all sorts of things, but in 0:32:23.200 --> 0:32:27.440 that particular instance, people knew that it wouldn't be there. 0:32:29.160 --> 0:32:33.480 The fair was a temporary installation, like a carnival set 0:32:33.560 --> 0:32:37.040 up in Queens. It was open for two seasons from 0:32:37.080 --> 0:32:41.360 April to October, and closed permanently as most of the 0:32:41.440 --> 0:32:46.880 participating countries sank into another World war. That experience, knowing 0:32:47.600 --> 0:32:51.120 that it's going to be gone feels exhilarating but melancholic 0:32:51.200 --> 0:32:53.800 for a lot of people, and so the souvenir craze, 0:32:53.880 --> 0:32:56.560 you know, the souvenir boom is huge around that fair 0:32:57.080 --> 0:32:59.480 because people want to take something with them so that 0:32:59.560 --> 0:33:01.600 when the air is gone, when they're no longer there, 0:33:02.120 --> 0:33:05.000 but also the buildings are gone, they have something to 0:33:05.600 --> 0:33:09.480 remember it by. The Paris here and the trialon were 0:33:09.480 --> 0:33:12.320 the two iconic buildings and they get sort of put 0:33:12.400 --> 0:33:18.200 on everything rises above all else, and the circling helocline 0:33:18.480 --> 0:33:22.280 that leads even the Paris. There's exhibits. Democracy is the 0:33:22.400 --> 0:33:25.560 pathway to the future. One of my favorite super years 0:33:25.640 --> 0:33:27.640 is after you came out of Futurama, which was General 0:33:27.720 --> 0:33:30.640 Motors Vision and sort of model city of the future, 0:33:30.640 --> 0:33:32.160 you would get a little button that says I have 0:33:32.280 --> 0:33:36.360 seen the future. Sensational is the Futurama that projects you 0:33:36.400 --> 0:33:40.440 into nineteen six the Highways and a Rizon show. You 0:33:40.480 --> 0:33:42.760 know that you have this item, this object that's going 0:33:42.840 --> 0:33:45.520 to commemorate this event. It almost feels like it's shoring 0:33:45.680 --> 0:33:51.680 up against that feeling of mortality. Susan Stewart talks about 0:33:51.680 --> 0:33:55.200 the souvenir as an object that you need when an 0:33:55.240 --> 0:33:58.200 event is no longer repeatable. So if you go to 0:33:58.280 --> 0:34:01.400 your arian and Grande con or, you want the ticket 0:34:01.480 --> 0:34:03.440 stuff because you're probably not going to go to another 0:34:03.600 --> 0:34:05.440 Ariana Grande show where you're certainly not going to go 0:34:05.480 --> 0:34:08.120 to the one in Philadelphia, and so you need an 0:34:08.160 --> 0:34:14.520 object because it's not repeatable. Many ephemera are doing that work. 0:34:14.640 --> 0:34:16.959 There are kind of saying I was there, I saw 0:34:17.080 --> 0:34:20.680 this thing. It's gone now, but I save it, and 0:34:20.840 --> 0:34:23.120 that allows me to project myself into the future, to 0:34:23.200 --> 0:34:27.080 project myself into the past, to stave off that encounter 0:34:27.239 --> 0:34:48.080 with death that might be implicitly happening. Listen to the 0:34:48.160 --> 0:34:50.880 rest of this episode and the full first season of 0:34:50.960 --> 0:34:55.520 Ephemeral Now. Subscribe on Apple Podcasts, the I Heart Radio app, 0:34:55.920 --> 0:34:59.360 wherever you listen to podcasts, and learn more at Ephemeral 0:34:59.760 --> 0:35:27.600 dot Show. All right, well, wow, this is fresh on 0:35:27.640 --> 0:35:30.640 everybody's mind. Can you just just tell listeners where they 0:35:30.680 --> 0:35:33.680 can find if if fhemeral and uh and also what 0:35:33.800 --> 0:35:38.200 the homepages It's Ephemeral dot Show. If you don't spell ephemeral, 0:35:38.320 --> 0:35:40.160 just google it. It's easy to find. I had someone 0:35:40.200 --> 0:35:42.960 write me a review that was five stars, but the 0:35:43.040 --> 0:35:45.719 told me they could not spell it their heady google it. 0:35:46.080 --> 0:35:48.320 But I appreciated that. I appreciate that they did that 0:35:48.360 --> 0:35:50.120 extra work. But it's not it's not too hard, you know, 0:35:50.760 --> 0:35:52.440 to to to find and you know, it's on all 0:35:52.440 --> 0:35:55.440 the social media things. Podcasts available anywhere. You can do 0:35:55.480 --> 0:35:57.880 it on the I Heart radio app or Apple or 0:35:58.640 --> 0:36:02.040 Stitcher or what everything. If you go to the website, 0:36:02.080 --> 0:36:04.400 there's like, you know, some images and some links and 0:36:04.440 --> 0:36:07.480 a little bit more information, but yeah, easy to find. 0:36:07.640 --> 0:36:10.399 All the episodes are out now and uh and our 0:36:10.560 --> 0:36:13.760 our future episodes planned. You have some ideas kicking around, 0:36:13.880 --> 0:36:15.680 I'm just gonna go ahead and say, yes, we're in 0:36:15.760 --> 0:36:18.439 work works on the second season right now, so we're 0:36:18.560 --> 0:36:22.120 technically off season right now. We've already released one bonus episode, 0:36:22.120 --> 0:36:24.640 which is the full length interview with our lovely producer 0:36:24.680 --> 0:36:29.839 Matt Frederick about that old family recording, and lots lots 0:36:29.920 --> 0:36:32.760 of other things in between now and then and second 0:36:32.800 --> 0:36:34.719 season and hopefully not all that long. It took us 0:36:34.760 --> 0:36:37.239 about eighteen months to do the first season, but we 0:36:37.440 --> 0:36:38.800 had a lot to figure out and there was a 0:36:38.840 --> 0:36:41.680 lot of other stuff going on. So hopefully not quite 0:36:41.719 --> 0:36:43.680 that long, but it could be, well, I hope not. 0:36:44.360 --> 0:36:46.600 It's it's a really fantastic show. What I've heard of 0:36:46.680 --> 0:36:50.040 it I absolutely adore and I can't wait to finish listening. Well, 0:36:50.080 --> 0:36:52.160 thank you, Joe. Yeah, I mean it's really it's it's 0:36:52.160 --> 0:36:53.759 a breath of fresh air compared to a lot of 0:36:54.160 --> 0:36:57.360 podcasts out there. I mean, I mean, I mean, honestly, 0:36:57.440 --> 0:37:01.040 I mean, there's there's it's there's a disturbing world we're 0:37:01.080 --> 0:37:03.239 living in, and there are a lot of shows that that, 0:37:03.440 --> 0:37:07.200 by necessity and sometimes very bravely deal with the disturbing 0:37:07.239 --> 0:37:10.959 aspects of of our reality. Uh, but did your show 0:37:11.520 --> 0:37:14.640 has a you know, it's it's such a more comforting 0:37:14.719 --> 0:37:16.880 feel to it, you know, I can I feel like 0:37:17.280 --> 0:37:19.800 I'm I'm settling into like a nice warm glass of 0:37:19.960 --> 0:37:22.680 milk when I listened to That's not all rainbows. I 0:37:22.760 --> 0:37:27.040 mean there's some there's some darker aspects of human history 0:37:27.120 --> 0:37:30.160 and there too, Yeah, but hopefully yeah there. You know, 0:37:30.840 --> 0:37:32.640 it's you can listen to it with your kids. I mean, 0:37:32.760 --> 0:37:36.000 it's like it's not it's not you know, dirty or anything. 0:37:36.120 --> 0:37:38.320 I listened to the first episode with my son in 0:37:38.360 --> 0:37:40.000 the car and uh, and he was digging it to 0:37:40.120 --> 0:37:42.680 you know, because he can. He's identifying with all this 0:37:42.800 --> 0:37:45.160 is a family. I'm listening to a family. Uh, you know, 0:37:45.280 --> 0:37:48.560 talk about shoes. That Shoes tape is definitely a hot 0:37:48.600 --> 0:37:51.120 cup of tea. It's a good one, man. I love 0:37:51.200 --> 0:37:55.640 that one. Yeah. Before we close things out or even 0:37:55.640 --> 0:37:59.000 consider closing things out, though, let's talk about William Castle 0:37:59.200 --> 0:38:01.840 because because Joe, we're talking about this a little before 0:38:02.080 --> 0:38:05.320 the podcast. But Joe and I did an episode about 0:38:05.360 --> 0:38:07.920 the Tingler Love the Tangler and yeah, and and so 0:38:08.160 --> 0:38:10.480 I'm just happy to have somebody in here who is 0:38:10.520 --> 0:38:13.320 a fan of the film. My parents instilled in me 0:38:13.440 --> 0:38:17.040 a real love for just creature feature B movies. Uh 0:38:18.080 --> 0:38:21.840 and you know, specifically like the work of the Wonderful 0:38:22.000 --> 0:38:24.160 Ed Wood, but all kinds of other things and the 0:38:24.239 --> 0:38:27.520 original Mystery Science three thousands or Mr. Science Theater three 0:38:27.560 --> 0:38:30.719 thousand and all things like that. So, yeah, Tangler, what 0:38:32.040 --> 0:38:35.840 Vincent Price, Yeah you have Vincent Price? Uh? Directed by 0:38:36.080 --> 0:38:40.120 William Castle and just a yeah, just a really wonderful, 0:38:40.960 --> 0:38:43.600 wonderful film in its own right, you know, I mean, 0:38:43.680 --> 0:38:46.760 just has such a weird premise and then the gimmick, 0:38:47.000 --> 0:38:51.000 the William Castle gimmick of the vibrating uh uh theater 0:38:51.160 --> 0:38:54.400 seats I would have loved to have. I don't think 0:38:54.440 --> 0:38:58.520 i've you know, short of something like three D I 0:38:58.560 --> 0:39:00.200 don't know that I've ever really been to him movie 0:39:00.600 --> 0:39:04.880 a theatrical release that had a gimmick as part of it. Ye, Pokemon, 0:39:04.960 --> 0:39:06.960 they gave away cards. I went into the Pokemon movie 0:39:06.960 --> 0:39:10.880 when that came out. There's certainly some giveaway things that 0:39:10.920 --> 0:39:13.279 I went to specifically as a kid, you know, But 0:39:13.920 --> 0:39:16.719 that's not like something where you know, there's a a 0:39:17.440 --> 0:39:19.239 four D element or you know, some sort of thing 0:39:19.360 --> 0:39:22.440 that happened in the theater. Yeah, I don't think I've 0:39:22.480 --> 0:39:25.920 ever gotten to experience that with a theatrical release. What 0:39:26.120 --> 0:39:29.759 was it that the Scream films postulated was that the 0:39:30.400 --> 0:39:33.160 new gimmick in movie theaters would be releasing an actual 0:39:33.239 --> 0:39:36.920 murderer into the movie theater. It's a horror movie. Well, 0:39:36.920 --> 0:39:38.399 I mean, there's so many things we could have done 0:39:38.440 --> 0:39:40.560 with different films, Like take Titanic. They could have missed 0:39:40.640 --> 0:39:43.719 the audience with salt water during the final scenes, like 0:39:43.800 --> 0:39:46.560 nice cold saltwater. That would have been interesting. Now I 0:39:46.640 --> 0:39:50.120 have seen Rocky Horror here in Atlanta at the Plaza, 0:39:50.200 --> 0:39:52.200 and they do you know, they're saying, yeah, there's there's 0:39:52.200 --> 0:39:54.439 a lot of fun shenanigans that take place, and that's 0:39:54.440 --> 0:39:56.880 pretty great. I mean, that's that in it. I have 0:39:57.719 --> 0:40:01.120 I love Rocky are and for a number of reasons, 0:40:01.200 --> 0:40:03.319 and and I'm I'm perfectly happy to watch it again 0:40:03.360 --> 0:40:06.880 and again just straight up without any theatrical shenanigans. But 0:40:06.960 --> 0:40:09.520 like that is kind of like the pre mystery Science 0:40:09.560 --> 0:40:13.800 Theater three thousand, riffing tradition right there, and uh and 0:40:13.880 --> 0:40:16.440 it continues to be like this, this cool kind of 0:40:18.200 --> 0:40:21.399 this is kind of like counterculture experience for the movie 0:40:21.440 --> 0:40:25.360 going experience that people can partake of, especially like younger 0:40:25.560 --> 0:40:29.520 of people. So yeah, I'm glad that Atlanta as a 0:40:29.520 --> 0:40:32.399 place where one can still find that. I do think 0:40:32.440 --> 0:40:37.000 folks like William Castle, Yeah, I think he was aware 0:40:37.040 --> 0:40:38.680 of the sort of you know, the crowd that he 0:40:38.760 --> 0:40:40.839 was going for the sort of work he was doing. 0:40:41.120 --> 0:40:47.160 But also, you know, I feel exuberants from him and 0:40:47.200 --> 0:40:49.120 some of the in in the way that he works, 0:40:49.239 --> 0:40:52.680 you know, like we're we are pushing a medium forward, 0:40:52.760 --> 0:40:56.680 like we're trying weird things, you know, and in the effort, 0:40:56.880 --> 0:41:00.279 in the effort of like you know, driving ticket sales. Right. Well, 0:41:00.600 --> 0:41:02.360 one thing I will say about The Tingler is that 0:41:02.560 --> 0:41:05.640 it is um it is not a dull movie. I mean, 0:41:06.120 --> 0:41:08.440 it is fun and full of energy. I mean, he 0:41:08.840 --> 0:41:11.719 was somebody who remembered that movies are supposed to be fun. 0:41:12.880 --> 0:41:15.240 There are a lot of people making movies that. I mean, obviously, 0:41:15.320 --> 0:41:17.320 not all movies are supposed to be fun. Some movies 0:41:17.360 --> 0:41:19.960 are very serious, so they ask challenging questions and all that. 0:41:20.040 --> 0:41:22.719 But I see trails all the time for movies that 0:41:22.960 --> 0:41:25.200 just do not look fun and exactly like you know, 0:41:25.280 --> 0:41:27.920 monster movies. Generally, monster movies are supposed to be fun. 0:41:28.600 --> 0:41:31.279 Uh And and he remembered that. I think he was 0:41:31.320 --> 0:41:34.680 aware of that, even you know, even schlocky or directors 0:41:35.320 --> 0:41:38.400 Roger Corman, I think was aware that monster movies are 0:41:38.400 --> 0:41:41.440 supposed to be fun primarily. Uh. So, you know, he 0:41:41.520 --> 0:41:43.600 could make Attack of the Crab Monsters and it's like 0:41:43.760 --> 0:41:47.320 sixty two minutes long or whatever, and it's kind of 0:41:47.360 --> 0:41:50.120 a brisk pace and it's got some googly eyed creatures 0:41:50.239 --> 0:41:52.960 and it doesn't get bogged down and uh, you know, 0:41:53.120 --> 0:41:57.000 you know, bad depressing, bad feelings like so many horror 0:41:57.040 --> 0:41:59.920 movies do these days. Yeah, yeah, I mean, I'm I'm 0:42:00.200 --> 0:42:02.959 I'm seriously being turned off horror. I think I'm it's 0:42:03.160 --> 0:42:06.040 like every I keep seeing trailers for things and I'm 0:42:06.080 --> 0:42:07.800 just like that just doesn't Maybe it's just me, but 0:42:07.880 --> 0:42:13.200 what about Mandy Mandy? Mandy? I enjoyed even though it's 0:42:13.200 --> 0:42:15.800 a revenge film, and revenge films aren't really my my 0:42:16.040 --> 0:42:19.000 my like my go to franchise, but it was so funny. 0:42:19.280 --> 0:42:23.279 It was such a goofy movie. Yeah, and beautiful. I 0:42:23.320 --> 0:42:27.480 mean I love the I love Panos's style and the cinematography, 0:42:27.520 --> 0:42:30.440 love the music, and well, yeah, ultimately I love that 0:42:30.560 --> 0:42:32.840 almost as much as I love Beyond the Black Rainbow, 0:42:32.920 --> 0:42:35.560 which is I pulled up as one of my favorites 0:42:36.080 --> 0:42:38.719 or something like stranger things like that's a monster movie, 0:42:38.760 --> 0:42:41.200 that's or monster idea. I'm sure a movie. Yeah, but 0:42:41.360 --> 0:42:44.359 but it's also exceedingly fun. Yeah, And I think that's 0:42:44.360 --> 0:42:47.360 one of the the appeals of the It movie that 0:42:47.480 --> 0:42:49.800 came out the addiction of the first half of Stephen 0:42:49.920 --> 0:42:53.960 King's novel is that, yes, it was terrifying. You had 0:42:53.960 --> 0:42:56.800 all these terrifying penny Wise moments, and penny Wise was 0:42:57.239 --> 0:43:00.800 fabulously brought to it to life. But yet it found 0:43:00.840 --> 0:43:05.320 ways to have have fun with the children in in 0:43:05.520 --> 0:43:07.640 in the in the in the in the movie, like 0:43:08.040 --> 0:43:11.200 those characters were brought alive in such a you know, 0:43:11.440 --> 0:43:17.279 a believable way. There was a Spielbergie and emotionality to it. Yeah, totally. Yeah. 0:43:17.640 --> 0:43:22.879 Is the Child's Play thing out yet? Yeah, because that's 0:43:22.920 --> 0:43:25.480 just that's a tenpole one for me. Like I watched 0:43:25.520 --> 0:43:27.880 Child's Play over. I think probably on TV, like the 0:43:28.520 --> 0:43:31.560 TV edited broadcast, but I definitely saw all of those 0:43:31.640 --> 0:43:34.759 movies all the way, at least up to Bride of 0:43:35.360 --> 0:43:37.879 that's the one with Jennifer at Tilly. Did Brad Durro 0:43:38.120 --> 0:43:39.680 keep doing the voice? I don't think he's in the 0:43:39.760 --> 0:43:41.600 new one, but he was in like all the others. 0:43:41.719 --> 0:43:43.760 That would be My main thing is if Brad Dorrith's 0:43:43.800 --> 0:43:46.160 not in it, then what what's the point it's But 0:43:46.200 --> 0:43:51.280 it's the same folks that did the ITA, Yeah, the reboot? Okay, 0:43:51.400 --> 0:43:53.200 well then then I believe maybe I should give it 0:43:53.320 --> 0:43:55.960 a shot. I don't know. It's one of the like 0:43:56.200 --> 0:43:59.120 where I not all that in many things like reboots, 0:43:59.160 --> 0:44:01.400 I feel compelled to see like I have to. But 0:44:01.480 --> 0:44:03.320 for whatever reason, Child's plays one of those just like 0:44:03.440 --> 0:44:06.319 yeah whatever, Like I guess maybe because the first one 0:44:06.440 --> 0:44:09.840 wasn't like that amazing. Maybe it was that it's been 0:44:09.880 --> 0:44:12.120 a while so it's got the mom from Seventh Heaven 0:44:12.160 --> 0:44:17.080 on it. I think you're not wrong. The only thing 0:44:17.160 --> 0:44:20.840 that I feel also compelled to say about The Tingler 0:44:21.000 --> 0:44:25.000 before we wrap it up is a vincnent Price's ability 0:44:25.160 --> 0:44:30.040 to say ludicrous short lines with just poise and just 0:44:30.239 --> 0:44:33.360 really sell it, you know. Well, no, that's one of 0:44:33.440 --> 0:44:36.239 the best things about The Tingler actually, is the frequency 0:44:36.360 --> 0:44:40.120 with which characters say the words the Tingler, and so 0:44:40.640 --> 0:44:43.440 Vincent Price is just constantly saying things like, what do 0:44:43.560 --> 0:44:47.839 we know about the Tingler? And they're they're counting off 0:44:47.880 --> 0:44:49.920 their knowledge. They're like, we've discovered that there is a 0:44:50.000 --> 0:44:54.920 Tingler inside everyone. God. Yeah. One of the things that 0:44:54.920 --> 0:44:57.400 amazes me is that it just hasn't It hasn't been remade, 0:44:57.520 --> 0:45:00.239 and I've never read any discussion of anyone even adding 0:45:00.360 --> 0:45:03.480 to remake it or rebooted or what have you, despite 0:45:03.520 --> 0:45:06.759 the fact that the William Castle film immediately preceding it, 0:45:07.440 --> 0:45:09.800 The House on Haunted Hill, was of course remade, and 0:45:10.320 --> 0:45:14.200 I thought it really fun, uh Haunted House movie. And 0:45:14.280 --> 0:45:18.320 then the film immediately after it, Thirteen Ghosts, was also 0:45:18.760 --> 0:45:23.680 made into a film, which was maybe a little less solid. Yeah. 0:45:23.680 --> 0:45:25.360 I think I saw the movie theater as well, and 0:45:25.440 --> 0:45:27.200 it was it was fun, you know, it was a 0:45:27.320 --> 0:45:30.000 fun monster movie. Really think that might have suffered from 0:45:30.000 --> 0:45:34.000 that sort of early MTV music video vibe too, But 0:45:34.080 --> 0:45:35.800 it's been a long time since they saw it. I 0:45:35.880 --> 0:45:39.880 remember Roger Ebert's review of the Thirteen Ghosts remake. Just commenting, 0:45:40.080 --> 0:45:42.960 he says opened with like, this is certainly one of 0:45:43.040 --> 0:45:46.600 the loudest films I've ever seen. Yeah, I think it 0:45:46.680 --> 0:45:49.399 had that. It had some jarring cinematography and it for sure, 0:45:49.560 --> 0:45:52.160 but it also had f Murray Abraham, so it all 0:45:52.280 --> 0:45:57.279 bounces out. Um Man. I could see a remake of 0:45:57.320 --> 0:45:59.400 The Tingler that could go either way. You could get 0:45:59.440 --> 0:46:01.439 it in the hand to somebody who's a real lover, 0:46:01.520 --> 0:46:04.200 who's got the joy and all that. It could also 0:46:04.440 --> 0:46:09.080 be a joyless c G I slog with computer animated worms. 0:46:09.480 --> 0:46:11.520 But I think if you like leaned into the more 0:46:11.560 --> 0:46:14.200 psychedelic aspects of the piece, I think you could make 0:46:14.239 --> 0:46:16.400 it work. Because, as we discussed in in our episode, 0:46:16.440 --> 0:46:20.320 like it is allegedly the earliest mention of L S 0:46:20.440 --> 0:46:23.440 D in a major motion picture. Uh and and I 0:46:23.560 --> 0:46:26.759 think that they're there are aspects of its really whackadoodle 0:46:26.800 --> 0:46:30.960 plot that that are that are reflected by that. Who 0:46:31.040 --> 0:46:36.120 could you recast for the Vincent Price role? Who? Um? 0:46:37.160 --> 0:46:44.399 What about Jeremy Irons? Richard Jenkins? Yeah, yeah, he's great 0:46:44.440 --> 0:46:52.360 and everything. Yeah, Yeah, Jenkins is solid. Um Ian McKellen 0:46:54.280 --> 0:46:57.919 he's probably too old at this death. I know he's done. 0:46:58.120 --> 0:47:00.400 I know, but this could be coming back, bringing it 0:47:00.440 --> 0:47:03.239 back around, you know, I I have. I'm a little 0:47:03.239 --> 0:47:05.600 bit tired of Johnny Depp. You know what he's great 0:47:05.680 --> 0:47:08.840 in is Edwood. Yes, he is fantastic in them. That 0:47:08.960 --> 0:47:12.800 was Johnny Depp and Tim Burton both in their in 0:47:13.200 --> 0:47:17.319 their period where they were just unstoppable. I thank something 0:47:17.360 --> 0:47:19.440 around that. What happened to those guys? I don't think 0:47:19.480 --> 0:47:21.600 I could watch a Tim Burton movie now. But like 0:47:22.160 --> 0:47:23.960 Edwood is one of the best movies ever made. I 0:47:24.120 --> 0:47:27.080 love it. It's it's I don't I don't know. I 0:47:27.120 --> 0:47:29.920 don't know why. That sort of seems to be the 0:47:30.040 --> 0:47:33.239 story you see over and over in media and more 0:47:33.280 --> 0:47:37.239 specifically in Hollywood. But yeah, those they do seem to 0:47:37.360 --> 0:47:39.880 have passed their prime. But I don't know. I mean, 0:47:40.560 --> 0:47:43.120 how old is Johnny Depp? He's like in his forties way, 0:47:43.160 --> 0:47:45.000 But but then again we're asking the questions like how 0:47:45.080 --> 0:47:48.520 could somebody lose their you know, creative zeal and or 0:47:48.840 --> 0:47:53.600 their actual soul in Hollywood. Hollywood is known for consuming 0:47:53.640 --> 0:47:57.120 these two quantities, sometimes they like at rapid speed, right 0:47:57.160 --> 0:47:59.440 from the very beginning to right from the very beginning 0:47:59.440 --> 0:48:02.960 of Hollywood. Yeah, yeah, Edwood never lost it. No, that's 0:48:03.000 --> 0:48:06.000 not true, Edwards, not true. He did kind of lose 0:48:06.040 --> 0:48:08.560 it and like he drank himself to death. Yeah, there's 0:48:08.600 --> 0:48:11.760 there's that great like Bride of the Bride of the energy, 0:48:11.840 --> 0:48:14.120 Bright of the Monster has slashed Bright of the atom, 0:48:14.320 --> 0:48:17.520 right of the changed a couple of times, I think exactly. 0:48:17.600 --> 0:48:21.640 But that movie's got just fantastic. It's a rush, you know, 0:48:22.040 --> 0:48:26.240 it's got Lobo and it's got you know, the whipping 0:48:26.520 --> 0:48:30.000 and oh, it's a great great Bill Legos see and 0:48:30.239 --> 0:48:32.400 uh and even you know playing nine Bill Leghos. He 0:48:32.520 --> 0:48:34.919 wasn't really in it, but it was his last film. 0:48:35.320 --> 0:48:37.680 Well he's in a couple of shots, I guess. Yeah, 0:48:38.040 --> 0:48:40.080 for one shot. Maybe it's it's a few. I just 0:48:40.200 --> 0:48:42.640 rewatched the whole movie, and it is it's a few. 0:48:42.920 --> 0:48:45.600 It's maybe three. But that's still got great energy. I 0:48:45.680 --> 0:48:48.400 think later on it would went on to he started 0:48:48.440 --> 0:48:52.439 making kind of like, yeah, there's a there's a sort 0:48:52.440 --> 0:48:55.640 of connection between um. One of the reasons that Tim 0:48:55.680 --> 0:48:58.439 Burton cited for wanting to do the Edward Edward movie 0:48:59.080 --> 0:49:03.279 was his relationship with Vincent Price because you know he's 0:49:03.280 --> 0:49:06.279 a big fan of Vincent Myra Scissor Hands as a kid. 0:49:06.560 --> 0:49:09.520 And uh, and then Vincent Price ended up working on 0:49:09.840 --> 0:49:13.840 like his first short, I think, and they worked together twice. 0:49:13.880 --> 0:49:16.960 I believe that a similar to the way. Similarly the 0:49:16.960 --> 0:49:21.320 relationship that ed Wood had with Belle LECOSI, what's so, 0:49:21.400 --> 0:49:23.920 what's the next one? What's the next one? That continuum, 0:49:24.640 --> 0:49:27.160 that's how you get to play Vincent Price. In The 0:49:27.680 --> 0:49:33.920 Young Filmmaker befriends tom Atkins. He's that like the elder 0:49:34.000 --> 0:49:38.560 statesman of Horror. Uh, tom Atkins gets a late career revival. Oh, 0:49:38.680 --> 0:49:43.440 maybe tom Atkins can play the the Vincent Price role 0:49:43.560 --> 0:49:46.120 in the Tingler remain he's more rough and tumble when 0:49:46.160 --> 0:49:49.719 he's not Vincent Price type. But you could recast the 0:49:50.040 --> 0:49:52.520 character could become more of a kind of like cores 0:49:52.560 --> 0:49:57.160 drinking kind of scientists, more of a roused dour in 0:49:58.600 --> 0:50:01.960 Rowsed Dour. It was a dowry and roused dowry in 0:50:02.120 --> 0:50:05.560 Hero Yes, Yeah, that would okay if it's yeah, I'm 0:50:05.600 --> 0:50:07.600 on board for that. As long as it gets remade, 0:50:07.880 --> 0:50:11.280 I'm on board. I hope that they vibrate the seats 0:50:11.320 --> 0:50:13.560 in the theaters. Oh yes, I hope that makes it 0:50:13.600 --> 0:50:15.480 come back. I want to see more gimmicks like that 0:50:15.840 --> 0:50:17.400 in the theater. I feel like they need to do it, 0:50:17.520 --> 0:50:19.439 that they want me to show up and go through 0:50:19.600 --> 0:50:21.520 all the whole rigmarole to come in and see the film. 0:50:21.840 --> 0:50:24.360 Why else would you? Yeah, well, we will have giant 0:50:24.800 --> 0:50:27.840 flat screens at home and everything on demand. Then again, 0:50:27.960 --> 0:50:30.600 I wonder maybe what we need are more intermissions or 0:50:30.680 --> 0:50:33.640 those specialized intermissions like William Castle used one of these 0:50:33.680 --> 0:50:36.520 where you're supposed to take an intermission right before the 0:50:36.560 --> 0:50:38.800 climax of the film to decide if you've got what 0:50:38.960 --> 0:50:40.520 it takes and if you don't, you can go and 0:50:40.640 --> 0:50:43.720 get a refund and leave. Or there was a werewolf film, 0:50:44.080 --> 0:50:46.480 the Werewolf Break. Yeah, we had the Werewolf Break where 0:50:46.480 --> 0:50:48.439 you had to decide who is the werewolf. We're gonna 0:50:48.480 --> 0:50:51.120 have a werewolf break so the entire audience can collectively 0:50:51.160 --> 0:50:54.160 discuss it and place bets on who's going to be 0:50:54.239 --> 0:50:56.000 the werewolf? Like, maybe we just need more of that. 0:50:56.239 --> 0:50:58.840 What movie was that? I think I watched it on 0:50:58.960 --> 0:51:02.120 your suggestion. It has a great cast in it. Um 0:51:02.320 --> 0:51:03.840 is it the one that takes place at like the 0:51:03.960 --> 0:51:07.480 mansion where all the people gather on like an island 0:51:07.600 --> 0:51:10.400 or something. Yeah, is the name Charles Gray, isn't it? 0:51:11.000 --> 0:51:19.719 Who would go into play Minecroft Homes and play Blowfield. Oh? 0:51:19.760 --> 0:51:23.719 And also a young what's his name that played Dumbledore 0:51:24.000 --> 0:51:25.920 was in it. Richard Harris. No, not Richard here, the 0:51:25.960 --> 0:51:28.800 other one in the main Dumbledore Michael Gambon. That's what 0:51:28.880 --> 0:51:31.839 I'm thinking. Yeah, I believe he's in it as well. 0:51:31.960 --> 0:51:34.400 We got a really far afield, didn't we know. I 0:51:34.440 --> 0:51:36.880 mean that's some pretty ephemeral stuff that you're talking about. 0:51:36.960 --> 0:51:42.200 Their human life it is, man. Yeah, No, I mean 0:51:42.280 --> 0:51:45.000 that's that's a That's one of the things I think 0:51:45.000 --> 0:51:47.160 that makes it so special. I mean, you know, uh, 0:51:47.400 --> 0:51:50.840 there's a great Matt puts it really really really nicely 0:51:50.920 --> 0:51:54.560 in that interview talking about you pull that tape recorder 0:51:54.600 --> 0:51:57.080 at the closet and you put the tape in and 0:51:57.160 --> 0:52:00.160 you hit play on it, and you hear the to 0:52:00.200 --> 0:52:02.800 the tape cassette starts spinning, and you hear a voice 0:52:02.800 --> 0:52:05.360 from the grave come, you know, and say hello to you. 0:52:06.200 --> 0:52:07.960 We just found in my family, we just found a 0:52:08.040 --> 0:52:11.080 tape recording of my my dad's dad passed away. When 0:52:11.080 --> 0:52:13.360 I was nine months old. I had never heard his 0:52:13.520 --> 0:52:17.120 voice until, uh, my aunt Jennifer found this tape forward 0:52:17.160 --> 0:52:19.600 the last for the season finale of the Ephemeral episode. 0:52:19.640 --> 0:52:21.400 She found it like two days before the episode came 0:52:21.400 --> 0:52:23.560 out and we cut it in and I had never 0:52:23.680 --> 0:52:26.680 heard my grandfather's voice before that starts. I was just 0:52:26.760 --> 0:52:31.399 like high folks, a ghost out of nowhere. So, I mean, yeah, 0:52:31.440 --> 0:52:36.160 the the fact that you know, these whatever they are 0:52:36.239 --> 0:52:40.360 tape cassettes, who are you know, weird old industrial films 0:52:40.560 --> 0:52:43.520 or all kinds of effemora you know, get saved for 0:52:43.640 --> 0:52:47.400 one reason another, Uh, it's I think it's about as 0:52:47.440 --> 0:52:49.759 close as you can get to real time travel. Yeah. 0:52:50.640 --> 0:52:56.000 Are people sending you yet? Yes? Yeah, yeah. What's the 0:52:56.080 --> 0:52:58.759 best thing you've gotten? What's the best thing I've got? 0:53:00.120 --> 0:53:01.520 You know? Someone just wrote to me and told me 0:53:01.560 --> 0:53:04.719 that their parents both worked for the Dumont Network and 0:53:04.800 --> 0:53:06.799 that um at least one of them was hired by 0:53:06.840 --> 0:53:08.719 Alan B. Dumont, the founder of the company himself. So 0:53:08.760 --> 0:53:12.600 that was pretty cool. But I mean, it's all good. 0:53:12.719 --> 0:53:14.319 I like it all. A lot of people have told 0:53:14.360 --> 0:53:18.480 me amazing stories about you know, family tapes of theirs, 0:53:18.560 --> 0:53:21.279 who are you know, a firmer that was significant in 0:53:21.320 --> 0:53:24.440 their family. And I think the broader cultural stuff I 0:53:24.480 --> 0:53:27.400 think is is always good and is easy to make 0:53:27.440 --> 0:53:30.279 into big episodes. But I'm really fascinated by the sort 0:53:30.320 --> 0:53:32.759 of individual stories that people that are like, yeah, I 0:53:32.840 --> 0:53:37.280 made these kind of like goofy fake shows on tape cassette, 0:53:37.360 --> 0:53:40.120 like with my brother when I was a kid. Um. 0:53:40.480 --> 0:53:44.359 You know, the stuff that's not professionally made, the stuff 0:53:44.400 --> 0:53:46.960 that's a little harder to get through and could maybe use, 0:53:47.920 --> 0:53:50.360 you know, some kind of editor to get through and 0:53:50.840 --> 0:53:53.960 and and help you know, bring it to life a 0:53:54.000 --> 0:53:57.520 little bit. That's that's the stuff that I get really 0:53:57.600 --> 0:53:59.919 really excited about. Okay, so it looks like we gotta 0:54:00.000 --> 0:54:02.600 wrap up there, but Alex, thanks so much for joining 0:54:02.680 --> 0:54:05.839 us today. We are so excited about Ephemeral. What I've 0:54:05.880 --> 0:54:07.600 heard of it is so good and I mean that 0:54:07.680 --> 0:54:11.520 from the bottom of my heart. And I'm so excited 0:54:11.560 --> 0:54:14.759 for all you listeners out there to go subscribe to 0:54:14.880 --> 0:54:17.880 Ephemeral wherever you get your podcasts. And what else should 0:54:17.880 --> 0:54:20.080 they do is that it? Yeah, I mean, that's that's enough. 0:54:20.160 --> 0:54:22.440 I mean, you know, if if you feel so inclined 0:54:23.680 --> 0:54:26.280 writing one of those little reviews giving it some stars. 0:54:26.760 --> 0:54:28.759 That stuff actually really does make a big difference on 0:54:28.840 --> 0:54:32.200 our end. Are you know the powers A B see 0:54:32.280 --> 0:54:35.520 things like that and and like that and say, hey, 0:54:35.920 --> 0:54:38.000 maybe you should do more of these. So if you 0:54:38.040 --> 0:54:41.160 feel so inclined, I've heard that they're good to binge. 0:54:41.920 --> 0:54:45.000 Uh I don't you know? You can benjam or not benjam. 0:54:45.120 --> 0:54:47.399 You can listen to them out of order. You could 0:54:47.480 --> 0:54:49.839 really do whatever you want. The trailer, I will say, 0:54:50.360 --> 0:54:52.640 makes kind of an eleventh episode. It's about eight minutes long, 0:54:52.680 --> 0:54:54.480 but it is sort of a stands on its own 0:54:54.520 --> 0:54:58.080 as an episode two. So uh yeah, they're all there. 0:54:58.360 --> 0:55:01.360 I would recommend playing these episodes on a speaker and 0:55:01.480 --> 0:55:04.240 recording them with a microphone into an eight track player 0:55:04.320 --> 0:55:07.080 and then leaving those tapes out in the world for 0:55:07.160 --> 0:55:10.120 people to find. We had some crazy ideas about different 0:55:10.320 --> 0:55:12.000 ways to do, like oh, we can make a self 0:55:12.040 --> 0:55:13.920 destructing tape of the demo and send it to an 0:55:13.960 --> 0:55:18.080 executive or something that sounds safe and sending a bomb. Okay, 0:55:18.120 --> 0:55:23.279 got all right? Well, yeah, definitely check it out. And 0:55:23.600 --> 0:55:25.080 in the meantime, if you want to check out other 0:55:25.080 --> 0:55:27.200 episodes of stuff to blow your mind, heading over Stuff 0:55:27.239 --> 0:55:29.040 to Blow your Mind dot com. That's the mother ship, 0:55:29.120 --> 0:55:31.320 that's what we'll find them all. And indeed, if you 0:55:31.320 --> 0:55:32.759 want to help out this show as well, if you 0:55:32.760 --> 0:55:34.560 want to help out Invention, the other show that Joe 0:55:34.600 --> 0:55:36.960 and I put together, just make sure that you rate 0:55:37.040 --> 0:55:41.120 interview those shows wherever and whenever you have the opportunity 0:55:41.239 --> 0:55:44.120 to do so. Huge thanks to our producers Seth Nicholas 0:55:44.239 --> 0:55:46.480 Johnson and Maya Cole. If you would like to get 0:55:46.480 --> 0:55:48.880 in touch with us directly with feedback on this episode 0:55:49.000 --> 0:55:51.560 or any other suggest topic for the future, just to 0:55:51.600 --> 0:55:54.400 say hello, you can email us at contact that's Stuff 0:55:54.440 --> 0:56:05.799 to Blow your Mind dot com. 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