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Speaker 1: Ah Beat Force. If it doesn't work, you're just not

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Speaker 1: using enough. You're listening to Software a Gradio, Special Operations,

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Speaker 1: Military news and straight Talk with the guys and the

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Speaker 1: Community Software Radio on Time on Target. I am so

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Speaker 1: excited for this episode. Robert Bear is back on with

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Speaker 1: us for the first time and I think four years.

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Speaker 1: But before we get into it, this show is brought

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Speaker 1: to you by Create Club, a club four men by

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Speaker 1: men of gear handpicked by Special Operations military veterans. Visit

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Speaker 1: Create Club dot Us for an exclusive promotion for our

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Speaker 1: listeners off any gearbox of your choice. This is the

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Speaker 1: biggest discount we've ever made available, and we don't know

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Speaker 1: how long we can keep this promotion live. So go

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Speaker 1: to Create Club dot Us, use the coupon code softwarep

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Speaker 1: and get off any gearbox that's Create Club dot Us

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Speaker 1: coupon code software off any gearbox. Sign up today Bob

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Speaker 1: Bear coming on with us, one of the most respected

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Speaker 1: CIA c I A case officer out there from seventies

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Speaker 1: six to nine seven. But before we get to that interview,

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Speaker 1: I guess the big news today is that this is

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Speaker 1: not any surprise to people, but as was heavily speculated

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Speaker 1: on Joe Biden is officially running for president in and

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Speaker 1: it's gonna shake things up. It's gonna make things interesting.

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Speaker 1: As you kind of noted as we're prepping for this show,

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Speaker 1: the feedback from at least the I guess you would

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Speaker 1: say progressive or woke based on Twitter, is like they're

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Speaker 1: not happy about this guy running. They want someone that

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Speaker 1: they see as more progressive. Yeah. You know, when I

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Speaker 1: was on Brian Kill Me the show just before coming

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Speaker 1: over here to do our own podcast, and which really quick,

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Speaker 1: I should have told you to go because I was

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Speaker 1: just around there. I should have told you to go to, uh,

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Speaker 1: Try Tip at at the Rockfeller Center. Bill then you've

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Speaker 1: been there with me, But I've been going there every

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Speaker 1: morning that a year now because it's like the best

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Speaker 1: breakfast spreado ever. And now I'm addicted to that and

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Speaker 1: it's right by there. But an okay, I'll go there

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Speaker 1: next to any of you were ever in New York City,

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Speaker 1: go to try To They're not a sponsor, but Try

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Speaker 1: Tips breakfast burritos are like out of this world. The

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Speaker 1: phil In host Mary Barry Walter, Yeah, she she asked me,

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Speaker 1: She's like, you know, what do you do you think

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Speaker 1: that there's um going to be an attraction to so

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Speaker 1: called democratic socialism with millennials, Like do you think that's

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Speaker 1: going to speak to the population, Like no, like these

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Speaker 1: like the the woke uh mentality, the whole ideology that's

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Speaker 1: like a it's a Twitter phenomena. It's not real life.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, millennials, I mean young people are going to

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Speaker 1: be much more liberal than older people. Like we've seen

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Speaker 1: that demographic shift. You know, that's just a constant thing. Um.

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Speaker 1: But I mean democratic socialism is just communism with fucking

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Speaker 1: clowns and balloons. So it's like, I mean, these millennials

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Speaker 1: are gonna grow up. They're gonna have to pay taxes

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Speaker 1: and be gainfully employed. And as that happens, they're going

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Speaker 1: to become more con servative or if not saying, they're

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Speaker 1: gonna become Republicans, but they're gonna drift towards the center

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Speaker 1: because this stuff just doesn't I mean, it doesn't resonate

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Speaker 1: with mainstream society. I mean, they they may become, you know,

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Speaker 1: continuing to be idealistic though, because there have been a

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Speaker 1: ton of surveys done on you younger people in general,

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Speaker 1: and things like freedom of speech and they don't value

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Speaker 1: is the same older generations. They do believe in, you know,

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Speaker 1: the government cracking down on what they call hate speech,

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Speaker 1: and you know that goes again. They believe in subjective reality.

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Speaker 1: They think what I feel is what's true. You know,

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Speaker 1: they will tell you, I know my truths, which is

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Speaker 1: horrifying to me, Like, yeah, no, that's not what we're

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Speaker 1: talking about here. You know, you don't get to have

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Speaker 1: your own little world to live in, and you become

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Speaker 1: the arbiter of what is true and what is not.

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Speaker 1: Like sorry, pal um that as you were you were

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Speaker 1: telling me before we start recording, like they're gonna lose

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Speaker 1: this election because they're trying to throw Biden under the bus.

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Speaker 1: He is the only chance they have to def Trump.

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Speaker 1: So I've I think I've referenced this rant several times

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Speaker 1: on here, but it was just one of the truest

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Speaker 1: things I heard. I am a Ben Shapiro fan, and

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Speaker 1: and what he said and he's talked about this is

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Speaker 1: that the only way to stand out in this field,

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Speaker 1: because it's gonna end up being a field of like

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Speaker 1: twenty people or something of everybody. I mean, I'm sure

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Speaker 1: I don't know if someone like Andrew Yang is gonna

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Speaker 1: get in the debates, but I think it's gonna be

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Speaker 1: a ton of people and the only way to stand

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Speaker 1: out is to out left the rest of the people.

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Speaker 1: You got, Yeah, you're not gonna stand out being the moderate.

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Speaker 1: And he's like, they could win this election if they

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Speaker 1: could just not sound crazy, and they can't help themselves.

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Speaker 1: And so the latest example of this, and this sounds

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Speaker 1: almost like crazy fake news stuff, but you can go

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Speaker 1: out there, this is actually happening. Um. They asked Bernie

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Speaker 1: Sanders about voting rights for phlones, which is something he's

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Speaker 1: been an advocate for, and they asked him, you know,

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Speaker 1: all felons is include rapists and does include someone as

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Speaker 1: horrific as you know and I of the Boston marathon bomber.

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Speaker 1: And he believes that, yes, he should have his right

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Speaker 1: to vote, you know, reinstilled. And then you know a

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Speaker 1: candidate who's looked at his less radical than Bernie Sanders,

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Speaker 1: I would say Kamala Harris. She did a town hall

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Speaker 1: I believe it was with Don Lemon and asked her

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Speaker 1: about you know, he said that Bernie Sanders has recently

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Speaker 1: said that we need to reinstill voting rights for felons,

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Speaker 1: including people as radical as the Boston Marathon bomber. And

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Speaker 1: she started saying, I've been a federal federal prosecutor, and

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Speaker 1: I've worked hard on this issue, and I do believe

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Speaker 1: like those among us, you know, in these situations should

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Speaker 1: be able to have the right to vote at a

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Speaker 1: certain point when they've you know, paid their dues to society,

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Speaker 1: you know. Don Lemon said, but does this include someone

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Speaker 1: as radical as as the Boston marathon bomber, And she said,

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Speaker 1: it's something we need to scull. I mean, if they've

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Speaker 1: paid their dues to society and have been released from prison,

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Speaker 1: I mean I can see this. I could see that

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Speaker 1: too the process. But he he flatted ast her, even

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Speaker 1: the Boston Marathon bomber, And she said, yeah, we need

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Speaker 1: to discuss this, and like Tim mcve should he be

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Speaker 1: able to vote, you know, if he was alive. But

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Speaker 1: but here's, uh, here's what I don't get and why

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Speaker 1: they're tackling this issue. It makes no sense to me

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Speaker 1: because essentially, a an election is you know, popularity contest,

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Speaker 1: and you're supposed to, whether on the right of the left,

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Speaker 1: you're supposed to champion issues that America could get behind

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Speaker 1: and kind of hide those more radical views unless you know,

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Speaker 1: in the primary either running to the left to get

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Speaker 1: that Democrat base. But I could tell you I hang

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Speaker 1: out with plenty of New York you know, progressives, They

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Speaker 1: wagble themselves and all different types of people. I don't

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Speaker 1: know anyone who's champion, honestly for the Boston Arathon bomber

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Speaker 1: to have the right to vote. I have never met

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Speaker 1: anyone who said that this is what we need. All

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Speaker 1: that that woke Twitter subculture is just that. Like, I

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Speaker 1: don't know if those people would advocate for this. I

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Speaker 1: don't know if they I mean, like you know b

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Speaker 1: K said when he came on here, He's like, man,

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Speaker 1: half of them don't even believe that ship themselves. They

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Speaker 1: just say it because they're trying to get little hearts

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Speaker 1: and and they're getting that little like adrenaline high off

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Speaker 1: of it. It's crazy, man. But I actually do think

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Speaker 1: Kamala Harris is a serious Uh is a serious Uh?

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Speaker 1: What's the candidates for a president? Why is she saying that?

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Speaker 1: Why this is not gonna win you votes? I don't

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Speaker 1: I don't get why she would agree with a statement

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Speaker 1: like that. They all want to one up each other,

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Speaker 1: and you know it's gonna it's gonna turn into like

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Speaker 1: like Hugo Chavez and I'll be like, if you vote

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Speaker 1: for me, you will get free milk and eggs, you know,

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Speaker 1: like all kinds of ship. Ye, it's just gonna get

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Speaker 1: more and more goofy as as time goes on. So

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Speaker 1: I was gonna say, personally, I really do think for

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Speaker 1: a statement like that to both of them throw a

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Speaker 1: punch of the week. I don't know anybody who wants

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Speaker 1: to see someone who took the lives of innocent people

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Speaker 1: just trying to run a marathon and somehow that person

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Speaker 1: who's given the right to vote saying you're absolutely right

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Speaker 1: Ian that like, this is not pragmatic politics, Like they

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Speaker 1: are not thinking about what they need to do to

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Speaker 1: get the votes to win the election, and they're thinking

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Speaker 1: about like, oh, this is gonna get you know, this

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Speaker 1: is like the next Twitter hashtag. It's like, No, that's

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Speaker 1: not how you win an election, bro, It's not how

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Speaker 1: it's done. Although I'll come from the other side on here.

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Speaker 1: You know, in a heated primary, people have thought Donald

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Speaker 1: Trump was saying too crazy of stuff to win his

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Speaker 1: primary and and the people who did sound pragmatic, you

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Speaker 1: know that Jeb Bushes of the world. They got pushed out.

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Speaker 1: They did not catch on. So and I think that

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Speaker 1: probably does play into the thought process. They think they're

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Speaker 1: going to run a social media election like like AOC.

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Speaker 1: You know, I think they all wish they were like

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Speaker 1: her right now and they had that kind of like

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Speaker 1: massive social media following. Yeah. Uh, I don't know how

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Speaker 1: much we can get to here because we have emails,

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Speaker 1: and I know you gotta get going here. We have

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Speaker 1: a very long email that I won't read the whole

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Speaker 1: thing about, but he Uh, this guy Mike, who's a

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Speaker 1: veteran US military veteran living in Israel, basically commented on

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Speaker 1: us talking about um net and Yahoo and the election.

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Speaker 1: I'm not gonna be able to get to the whole

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Speaker 1: thing because just very long, and we have women a

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Speaker 1: time today. But my friend Avery sent me this article

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Speaker 1: that I thought was really interesting um from the Times

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Speaker 1: of Israel, if you want to check it out, called

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Speaker 1: the kids are all right wing Why Israel's younger voters

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Speaker 1: are more conservative And the interesting thing about this article

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Speaker 1: is it's kind of like the antithesis of what we

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Speaker 1: just talked about it because this article shows polling and

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Speaker 1: people eighteen to twenty four overwhelmingly are for Net and

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Speaker 1: Yahoo over the more liberal candidates. And I say candidates

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Speaker 1: because Israel has all these different parties of people running.

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Speaker 1: And uh, it's a long article, but here I'll read

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Speaker 1: this little excerpt here that might bring some understanding to

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Speaker 1: why this is. Young Israelis grew up during the Second

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Speaker 1: into Fatah, which saw hundreds of Israelis killed in suicide bombings.

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Speaker 1: The aftermath of the two thousand five disengagement from Gaza,

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Speaker 1: which occurred when the group was between four to twenty

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Speaker 1: years old, has led many young Jewish Israelies to resent

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Speaker 1: any leader who is willing to see any more land

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Speaker 1: currently under under Israeli control. Since some of this group

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Speaker 1: have served in the army, successive wars and Gaza have

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Speaker 1: only hardened that perception. Uh. This is a quote from

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Speaker 1: I don't I'd have to read back to see who

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Speaker 1: this guy is. Herman. He says they were born after

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Speaker 1: the Oslo process started, they were exposed to the bloodshed

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Speaker 1: during the Second into Fata. They're coming right after military service.

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Speaker 1: And then it says a war generation. Yeah, so for

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Speaker 1: the further quote here from an ACUD spokesman, which is

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Speaker 1: not YAHUS party. People who grew up in the middle

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Speaker 1: of the Alaxa into Fata don't trust the Palestinians, don't

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Speaker 1: believe in peace. They really want to be there for

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Speaker 1: want there to be peace, but there is no partner.

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Speaker 1: For younger religious Zionist voters. In particular, the disengagement, which

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Speaker 1: displaced some eight thousand Jewish settlers settlers was considered an

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Speaker 1: absolutely devastating moment that they vowed never to return to.

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Speaker 1: The general narrative is we gave up this land. They

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Speaker 1: sent rockets in return. The national religious religious have considered

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Speaker 1: it a national trauma. Ever since then. Uh, there's been

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Speaker 1: no peace process, no handshakes, no agreements, any negotiations, have

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Speaker 1: been zero expectation negotiations. But along with the children of

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Speaker 1: the conflict, this cohort is shaped by their religiosity. A

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Speaker 1: larger percentage of young Israelis are Haredi Haredi Orthodox. I

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Speaker 1: actually don't know how to protest that, uh, and religious

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Speaker 1: Zionist UH more so than previous generations, and religious Jewish

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Speaker 1: Israelies tend to be more right wing. So I just

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Speaker 1: thought this was interesting because it's very different from America

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Speaker 1: where eighteen to twenty four they would overwhelmingly vote for

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Speaker 1: whoever the left wing candidate is. And and well, I

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Speaker 1: mean not to make apples and oranges comparison, but another

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Speaker 1: way to think about that is what we've done in

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Speaker 1: America that we are um on a permanent war footing. Um.

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Speaker 1: You're talking about how you have this generation of young

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Speaker 1: people who Israel has always been at war right their

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Speaker 1: entire life. They're they're they're they're in a security uh state. Um.

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Speaker 1: And that's one of my fears about the of the

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Speaker 1: war on Terror and that it has no end in sight,

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Speaker 1: that like now you have kids who just grow up

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Speaker 1: and you don't have to propagandize them and convince them

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Speaker 1: to go to war or that the war is bad

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Speaker 1: or good or anything. It's like it's just there and

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Speaker 1: it's always there. It's a it's a paradigm. It's a

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Speaker 1: new way of living and being an American that it's

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Speaker 1: always there in the background. Yeah. All right, And before

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Speaker 1: we get to Bob Bar, one last thing. We have

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Speaker 1: a voice memo from our friend Jean Forignsworth and everybody

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Speaker 1: loves hearing from Kin, so I feel like I might

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Speaker 1: as well get to that, and we haven't done one

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Speaker 1: in a while, and I know that you sent a

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Speaker 1: review copy of the books. That's what this gets into.

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Speaker 1: Let's hear it. Greetings makes terror usn retired. It looks

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Speaker 1: like a very exciting time come up for soft Rim.

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Speaker 1: Lots of good things seem to be happening. Really had

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Speaker 1: been enjoying Jack's book. I'm halfway through it, freaking kick ass.

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Speaker 1: He's a smuggling into Syria now. It was really really

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Speaker 1: interested in reading The high Speed Chase in mosl definitely

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Speaker 1: puts a person right in the cab of that freaking humby. Amazing,

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Speaker 1: really good book. Congratulations Jack open does is as well

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Speaker 1: as is written and eon ion, I always say wrong

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Speaker 1: and I apologize, but it's been good listening to you.

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Speaker 1: You think you've done a hell of a good job.

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Speaker 1: And I'm sure you'll be missed by the Soft Frip folks,

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Speaker 1: And good luck and your next chapter in your life.

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Speaker 1: May you all continue to have fair winds and falling

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Speaker 1: sees Gino Jean's voice memo quality there is like better

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Speaker 1: than usual. I don't know what he's using, but it

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Speaker 1: sounds good. But no it's so appreciated. Always love hearing

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Speaker 1: from Gene Fornsworth. No, I love hearing from Gene, and

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Speaker 1: thank you so much for reading the book. Um, it's interesting.

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Speaker 1: He's actually the second person today to bring up that

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Speaker 1: chase scene was in a Striker armored vehicle, and um,

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Speaker 1: we were chasing after a opal like a sedan and

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Speaker 1: miss tool that supposedly had a high level target. I'm

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Speaker 1: sure it was the guy we were looking for, because

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Speaker 1: he took off at a high rate of speed once

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Speaker 1: he saw us. And um, the private driving the Striker,

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Speaker 1: it's like a twenty three ton armored vehicle. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's fucking huge. He just like floors it and he's

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Speaker 1: like twisting winding streets of missoul I don't know how

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Speaker 1: fast he got, is going like seventy miles an hour

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Speaker 1: or something. Just like there's a huge it's a it's

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Speaker 1: a fucking tank basically, And um, it's like I'm there

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Speaker 1: in the hatch outside the vehicle, you know, and I'm

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Speaker 1: just like getting rocked back and forth, back and forth

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Speaker 1: as he's cutting around these corners. And it's like most people,

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Speaker 1: I think, it's like the average American just has no

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Speaker 1: idea what it's like to have your life be completely

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Speaker 1: in the hands of an eighteen year old private driving

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Speaker 1: a twenty three ton armored vehicle in a high speed chase.

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Speaker 1: There's like, oh my god, but an insane Yeah yeah,

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Speaker 1: but um no, thank you, Jean. I'm glad you're enjoying

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Speaker 1: the book. Let me know what you think of it.

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Speaker 1: How do you finish now that I'm wondering, like, how

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Speaker 1: do you sleep after a night of after that like

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Speaker 1: like a baby? Really an Egyptian cotton sheets, my friend,

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Speaker 1: I'm just wondering, it's good to be alive. Well, uh,

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Speaker 1: we have we have Bob Beart standing by. I'm so

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Speaker 1: excited to have him on. One of the most respected

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Speaker 1: guys you'll hear from the c I A. UM, so

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Speaker 1: much history there, so let's get right into it. Joining

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Speaker 1: us back on the podcast for the first time in

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Speaker 1: a very long time. Um. The last time Robert bart

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Speaker 1: was on uh was with the release of The Perfect

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Speaker 1: Kill twenty one Laws for Assassins, which is still the

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Speaker 1: latest book but it's been out for a while. But

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Speaker 1: glad to have back on the show. Author and former

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Speaker 1: CIA case officer from nineteen seventy six to seven, Robert

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Speaker 1: Bart very excited to speak with you. It's great to

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Speaker 1: be back after all this time. So this is the

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Speaker 1: first time you've been on with Jack Murphy. But I

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Speaker 1: got to speak with you. And when I called you

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Speaker 1: and and seeing a if you're up for doing this again,

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Speaker 1: I was wondering what we could get into. And we

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Speaker 1: got into a discussion about basically people and intelligence and

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Speaker 1: even people in special operations working with hostile powers, and

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Speaker 1: I figured, yeah, it's a great topic. Yeah, and we've

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Speaker 1: brought it up here on the podcast a number of

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Speaker 1: times in regards to Yemen, the UA, China even Yeah. Well,

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Speaker 1: I mean the market out there is bad. I mean,

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Speaker 1: if if you're retiring from the military and you're not

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Speaker 1: a general, you got to take work as it comes along.

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Speaker 1: That in the in the Central Intelligence Agency for people

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Speaker 1: who are retiring, oh absolutely. I mean, if you retire,

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Speaker 1: let's say it as an s I S. You still

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Speaker 1: can't afford to put your kids through college, you know,

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Speaker 1: if you've got a couple of kids, it just it

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Speaker 1: just doesn't make it. Or or you look at the

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Speaker 1: Washington area, it's just the prices are out of control.

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Speaker 1: And um, I see people over and over again leaving

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Speaker 1: you and short of retirement, simply to move on and

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Speaker 1: make some money to you know, pay you know, not

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Speaker 1: to get rich, but you know, pay for expenses of

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Speaker 1: living in an urban area. Is that even like a

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Speaker 1: problem for espionage as far as you know, guys flip

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Speaker 1: into the other side. I mean, it makes them vulnerable

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Speaker 1: to that sort of elicitation, doesn't it. Well, we've seen

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Speaker 1: the case with UA. These people from the National Security

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Speaker 1: Agents contractors went there and and provided some hacking tools

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Speaker 1: which undoubtedly were used to track to Shogi and and

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Speaker 1: get into his text and email. And there's no evidence

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Speaker 1: that they participated in his murder. But it's our tools

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Speaker 1: that that are being carried out at the n s

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Speaker 1: A or the CIA that are ending up being used

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Speaker 1: for bad purposes. And there's one in particular, isn't it

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Speaker 1: all Larry Sanchez, a former CIA officer who is over

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Speaker 1: in the U a A. Doing a lot of advising

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Speaker 1: with him. Yeah, it's it's Sanchez, but it's also Morrel,

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Speaker 1: former acting CIA direct Michael Morrell negotiated. Yeah, he was

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Speaker 1: Mike Morrell. He was acting director and then he got

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Speaker 1: out and he helped negotiate the deal with Dine Corps

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Speaker 1: in Saudi Arabia to provide the services for the Royal

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Speaker 1: court for you know, UM spec ops and things like that,

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Speaker 1: and the revolving the revolving door has never gone away.

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Speaker 1: And all these people when they come out have a

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Speaker 1: you know, experience and knowledge that are very useful foreign countries.

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Speaker 1: But once you give them that knowledge, you can't account

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Speaker 1: for what they do with it. That was the conversation

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Speaker 1: I had with a number of people after the the

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Speaker 1: various American Special Operations veterans, including Dale com Stock, that

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Speaker 1: whole story and when they were working in Aiden under

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Speaker 1: the auspices of the Emirati military um that the UAE

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Speaker 1: is really desperate for capabilities. They want the capabilities of

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Speaker 1: Jay Sock of the Central Intelligence Agency, but they don't

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Speaker 1: necessarily have the maturity to know what to do with

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Speaker 1: those capabilities. Well, it's a one man rule there, that's

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Speaker 1: the problem. It's like Saudi Arabia and both leaders de

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Speaker 1: facto leaders are you know, they're they're playing around with

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Speaker 1: international law, violating it more like but it's um and

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Speaker 1: you know, it's it's what this president doesn't seem to

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Speaker 1: care that Saudi Arabia, the crown prince chopped up a

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Speaker 1: Washington Post columnist. I mean, it's just, you know, it's

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Speaker 1: it's sort of like Russia. We've just all moved on.

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Speaker 1: That's the new rules, and if you want to, if

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Speaker 1: you want to, you know, they're just there are no

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Speaker 1: more rules anymore. That's what I'm trying to say. It's

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Speaker 1: interesting that, I mean, former American officials, whether military or

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Speaker 1: from the intelligence community, going over there. I mean, I

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Speaker 1: know that if I were to go overseas and provide

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Speaker 1: military training to certain countries and certain people, that would

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Speaker 1: be a violation of EARS, which doesn't it just doesn't

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Speaker 1: just cover arms trafficking, it also covers military training. I wonder.

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Speaker 1: I mean, we haven't really seen anyone prosecuted, though I

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Speaker 1: don't think we will either. Like those guys in Haiti,

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Speaker 1: I knew one of them. They go there hired by

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Speaker 1: the President in what could be considered a lethal operation

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Speaker 1: because they were carrying weapons in port of Prince uh

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Speaker 1: and they were going to take delivery of some money

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Speaker 1: and transport it out of the country. As it turned out,

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Speaker 1: it was illegal. It wasn't the President's money. Now they

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Speaker 1: think they were working for a sovereign state, But in

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Speaker 1: fact it was more complicated than that. And those guys,

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Speaker 1: none of them is There's been no indictments against him,

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Speaker 1: So are the guys in Yemen. I mean, you can

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Speaker 1: go there and carry out legal operations and the Department

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Speaker 1: of Justice is going to be low to prosecute you. Well,

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Speaker 1: who who were they working for if not for the

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Speaker 1: Haitian government. You're saying it was more a privately it

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Speaker 1: was a private embezzlement scheme. Well, yeah, it sounded like

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Speaker 1: the president was embezzling this fuel fund and carrying the

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Speaker 1: cash out. I mean, Haiti is not exactly you know,

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Speaker 1: you know Switzerland, so that's you know. And they were

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Speaker 1: stopped by a guard who called up whoever is directly

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Speaker 1: in charge of the fund and stopped it, and they

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Speaker 1: all got arrested in the state department work to get

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Speaker 1: him out of Haiti, and they did. Um. It's an

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Speaker 1: ambiguous situation because in a country like Haiti, you don't

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Speaker 1: really know who's in charge. And if you're being hired

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Speaker 1: for an operation like this, even though you think you're

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Speaker 1: you're reporting to a sovereign authority, in fact you're not.

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Speaker 1: I mean a lot of parts of the world it's

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Speaker 1: it's unclear who's really in charge of these countries, whether

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Speaker 1: it's Saudi Arabia or a lot of countries in South America.

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Speaker 1: You know, as there's a disintegration of law generally around

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Speaker 1: the world, it becomes very complicated. Yeah, and I mean

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Speaker 1: even with you know, the guys and Yemen, they put

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Speaker 1: themselves under the auspices, are seconded to the Emirati military

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Speaker 1: and they think they're covered then under the under the law, um,

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Speaker 1: but really you're not. I mean that that could be

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Speaker 1: construed as mercenary activity. It could be construed as a

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Speaker 1: number of things. Yeah, and you get hauled in for

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Speaker 1: a war crimes investigation out of the Hague, any number

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Speaker 1: of things, because you're ultimately acting as a mercenary. I mean,

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Speaker 1: even though the UAE is a nominal ally of this country,

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Speaker 1: you're still operating as a mercenary, just as the NSA

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Speaker 1: people did that worked at Abudhabi and they brought that

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Speaker 1: software to him, and you know, it's it's it's dangerous.

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Speaker 1: I mean some of the software you can put into

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Speaker 1: an iPhone too. I'm messaging and just set to sit

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Speaker 1: in queue, like a text from my messaging was sitting

427
00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:17,280
Speaker 1: queue for five seconds and I'll put malware into your phone.

428
00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:20,600
Speaker 1: I think they've closed that gap. But that's the kind

429
00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:24,520
Speaker 1: of technology that can't be produced indigenously in these countries,

430
00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:32,160
Speaker 1: and former employees are selling it essentially, And I wonder

431
00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:35,320
Speaker 1: then what you think, which this is raises even more

432
00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:38,320
Speaker 1: eyebrows for me personally. Um, And I know there's a

433
00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:42,280
Speaker 1: question of semantics, but the issue of Eric Prince working

434
00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:49,080
Speaker 1: with the Chinese government in some capacity, well, I mean,

435
00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:52,360
Speaker 1: no one seems to care if you know, it's it's

436
00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:55,080
Speaker 1: you know, it's he's you know, to look at it

437
00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:59,080
Speaker 1: the least, uh the worst way. He's out there building

438
00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:03,280
Speaker 1: concentration camps from Muslims. Now, he doesn't anything about it,

439
00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:05,119
Speaker 1: but he's working for the Chinese, and he's worked for

440
00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:08,159
Speaker 1: the Chinese in Africa, and he's worked for the UAE,

441
00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:12,840
Speaker 1: and it all gets sort of messy, especially when princes

442
00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:16,520
Speaker 1: in touch with the Russian oligarch who effectively work for

443
00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:20,520
Speaker 1: the Russian government. I mean, who's in charge in Russia.

444
00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:22,800
Speaker 1: It's hard to tell. Is it Dairy Posca, the guy

445
00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:26,280
Speaker 1: that owns the aluminium monopoly, or is it Putin or

446
00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:29,840
Speaker 1: is it Russian intelligence. I don't know anymore. I means

447
00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:34,240
Speaker 1: so much of stuff is getting outsource to corporations or

448
00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:39,840
Speaker 1: peristatal bodies that it's it's hard to tell. And the

449
00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:43,440
Speaker 1: old days, you know, you a Soviet was a Soviet,

450
00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:47,119
Speaker 1: but law it's hard to tell what's going on in

451
00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:49,320
Speaker 1: the world. I mean, if you could go work for

452
00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:51,560
Speaker 1: the Chinese, why couldn't you go work for the Russians

453
00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:55,560
Speaker 1: in Moscow? You know, because they're they're getting deep into

454
00:25:55,560 --> 00:26:02,280
Speaker 1: Africa through through oligarchs, and they're providing mercenary forces, as

455
00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:05,840
Speaker 1: they did in Syria, which, by the way, we almost

456
00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:09,600
Speaker 1: gotten in the middle of a war with these Russian

457
00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:13,960
Speaker 1: mercenaries when they moved on one of our forward operating bases.

458
00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:19,520
Speaker 1: So it's becoming very dicey out there. Yeah, I mean,

459
00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:22,200
Speaker 1: especially in Syria. It seems like those flashpoints could have

460
00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:24,439
Speaker 1: erupted at any moment. I mean, I think in the

461
00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:27,959
Speaker 1: incident you were referring to, there's a Russian mercenary company

462
00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:31,360
Speaker 1: moving on oil field and a fob that the SDF

463
00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:34,360
Speaker 1: controlled where there are American troops. And as I read

464
00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:36,960
Speaker 1: about anyway, we called up on the hotline. We called

465
00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:38,960
Speaker 1: the Russians and said, hey, are those are your boys

466
00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:41,480
Speaker 1: moving on us and they were like nope, So it's

467
00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:43,639
Speaker 1: called an air and artillery on them and killed all

468
00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:45,800
Speaker 1: of them, and something like that could erupt into a

469
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:50,040
Speaker 1: war I mean very easily. Yeah. I mean it's it's

470
00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:52,639
Speaker 1: like we're up against the Iranians and the Iranians are

471
00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:58,960
Speaker 1: operating through paramilitary organizations malicious the Hashta Shabi as it's called,

472
00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:05,400
Speaker 1: and itybody's using these proxies for plausible deniability. It's it's

473
00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:08,679
Speaker 1: just getting very confusing. Well, is there I mean a

474
00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:12,920
Speaker 1: real concern? I mean, Erik Prince allegedly ran a number

475
00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:17,240
Speaker 1: of covered programs for the intelligence community back in the day,

476
00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:21,480
Speaker 1: um doing some interesting activities. I mean, is there a

477
00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:23,919
Speaker 1: real concern that he could take that kind of know

478
00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:32,680
Speaker 1: how over to communist China and help them develop similar capabilities. Well,

479
00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:35,719
Speaker 1: I look at it more. You know, with his sister

480
00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:39,439
Speaker 1: sitting in the cabinet as sort of approval of the

481
00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:43,760
Speaker 1: White House's you know, there's a big move into Libya

482
00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:48,760
Speaker 1: right now supporting Khalifa Haffcar for the oil resources. Now

483
00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:52,240
Speaker 1: on one side, you got the State Department that has

484
00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:55,760
Speaker 1: backing the U N backed government and Tripoli, and then

485
00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:57,680
Speaker 1: you've got the sky Hoffcar who was supported by the

486
00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:02,440
Speaker 1: Russians and very as Americans that are swirling around Half

487
00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:06,200
Speaker 1: Dart and Prince was there for a while too in Libya,

488
00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:09,919
Speaker 1: So what is our policy? And then you got the

489
00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:13,440
Speaker 1: President saying, I'm you know, we we share a vision

490
00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:16,200
Speaker 1: half Tar and I do. So is that the State

491
00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:19,280
Speaker 1: Department making policy or is it Erik Prince or these

492
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:24,160
Speaker 1: other people in Libya? And it's it's very hard to tell. Well,

493
00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:26,400
Speaker 1: I was wondering since you brought it up. I mean,

494
00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:28,760
Speaker 1: if you could if you knew anything about Half Tar,

495
00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:31,720
Speaker 1: because I think he's an interesting personality and that he

496
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:36,000
Speaker 1: was captured during the Toyota War. We got him out

497
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:38,840
Speaker 1: of prison down there and he lived in Virginia for

498
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:41,800
Speaker 1: many years, which I know, Bobby, you're a smart enough guy.

499
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:44,840
Speaker 1: You can put two and two together there. But now

500
00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:47,680
Speaker 1: he's allied with the Russians. It's like, what's going on

501
00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:50,920
Speaker 1: with this cat? Well, he was more run out the

502
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:54,760
Speaker 1: people who did Libyan operations. Law was run out of

503
00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:58,160
Speaker 1: the White House, started with the Reagan White House. I

504
00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:00,640
Speaker 1: was involved in that when we were we wanted to

505
00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:04,560
Speaker 1: get rid of Kadafi at any price, and anybody that

506
00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:07,000
Speaker 1: came out, whether he was a general or a Muslim

507
00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:10,200
Speaker 1: brother or whatever, we were on it saying, yeah, get

508
00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:15,080
Speaker 1: rid of Kadafi. So I mean, but you know, the

509
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:17,440
Speaker 1: good thing, let's be fair as he's a secular leader.

510
00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:20,160
Speaker 1: I mean, he if anybody is going to go down,

511
00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:23,560
Speaker 1: you know, crush these Islamic groups in Libya. And they're

512
00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:28,800
Speaker 1: still dangerous, you know. But but the point is, you know,

513
00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:32,080
Speaker 1: going back to our original you know how we started

514
00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:36,560
Speaker 1: this is you've got all these sort of private interests

515
00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:41,440
Speaker 1: out there. It's no longer being you know, led by

516
00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:45,200
Speaker 1: the State Department. You know, there there is not a

517
00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:51,000
Speaker 1: single foreign policy you know what, what's our policy in Russia?

518
00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:53,360
Speaker 1: You know, seriously, I mean you've got there, You've got

519
00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:58,880
Speaker 1: the Russians putting two million dollars into Kentucky to you know,

520
00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:03,800
Speaker 1: you know, McConnell, you know, is it is it a purchase?

521
00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:06,680
Speaker 1: I just don't know anymore. It's it's sort of like

522
00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:10,080
Speaker 1: corrupt money runs the world, and it didn't used to

523
00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:12,840
Speaker 1: be this way. Well, it seems that you know, back

524
00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:16,040
Speaker 1: in the back when you first entered government service, there

525
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:19,640
Speaker 1: was an ideology that held everything together. I mean that

526
00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:22,880
Speaker 1: the CIA was an organization of people that came about

527
00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:25,400
Speaker 1: after the world after World War Two and started the

528
00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:28,680
Speaker 1: emergence of communism as being just as bad as the Nazis,

529
00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:30,840
Speaker 1: if not a little worse. And it seems like that

530
00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:33,680
Speaker 1: was something that held us together, held our foreign policy

531
00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:37,680
Speaker 1: and our defense infrastructure together. But today with that, you

532
00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:41,720
Speaker 1: know that um global superpower threat from a from a

533
00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:46,200
Speaker 1: pure adversary, it seems like we're decoupled or untethered from

534
00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:49,880
Speaker 1: a unifying ideology like that. Yeah, when I was in

535
00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:52,920
Speaker 1: the CIA, you know, we were warned over and over

536
00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:57,320
Speaker 1: again to say, you don't represent the White House, you

537
00:30:57,360 --> 00:31:00,880
Speaker 1: don't represent the National Security Council. You was in the CIA,

538
00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:03,440
Speaker 1: you don't represent American policy. Even though we were part

539
00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:06,240
Speaker 1: of the government. We were warned over and over again

540
00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:08,800
Speaker 1: when we would tell it, you know, assets hey, we

541
00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:13,600
Speaker 1: can get this message right to the president. And and

542
00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:16,800
Speaker 1: so there was there was a definite discipline. And under

543
00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:22,000
Speaker 1: George H. W. Bush Um, it was one guy ran

544
00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:24,760
Speaker 1: for policy, and that was James Baker, And that was

545
00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:28,880
Speaker 1: very clear the old school. And then along comes Clinton,

546
00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:31,280
Speaker 1: where a lot of people in the White House were

547
00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:34,600
Speaker 1: running private foreign policy. Mc McLarty was one of them.

548
00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:39,320
Speaker 1: I don't know, I remembers him out there doing business.

549
00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:44,320
Speaker 1: I was just saying, it sounds reminiscent of the Dullest

550
00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:48,600
Speaker 1: Brothers back in the old days. Yeah, it was, well,

551
00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:50,960
Speaker 1: at least the Dulles brothers, you know, had tea in

552
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:54,760
Speaker 1: the afternoon together, you know, and and could you know,

553
00:31:55,720 --> 00:32:01,520
Speaker 1: check notes and things like that and coordinate. But now, um,

554
00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:06,640
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's almost it's so commercially transactional at

555
00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:09,880
Speaker 1: this point. And you'd like to say, well, it started

556
00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:11,520
Speaker 1: with Trump and it's going to go away with him,

557
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:15,840
Speaker 1: but that's just not true. Who do you think? And

558
00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:18,400
Speaker 1: it's it's the revolving door in Washington. I mean, it's

559
00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:20,560
Speaker 1: just like everybody's saying. You know, you all right, you

560
00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:22,440
Speaker 1: got to get it. You've spent a little time in

561
00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:26,520
Speaker 1: the government, work on your rolodex, and then go out

562
00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:31,720
Speaker 1: and make some go right right now? The total you know,

563
00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:37,120
Speaker 1: instead of serving your country, you're you're attaching this sort

564
00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:40,840
Speaker 1: of um capitalist ideal to it, which it can become

565
00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:47,280
Speaker 1: problematic as you as you make mention of yeah, it's

566
00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:49,960
Speaker 1: it's you know, it's um I don't you know that's

567
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:53,520
Speaker 1: from a perspective, that's that's old now, but I still

568
00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:56,720
Speaker 1: I still feel it every day, and I still look

569
00:32:56,760 --> 00:32:59,040
Speaker 1: at my colleagues out there trying to make a little

570
00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:03,520
Speaker 1: bit of money or you know, in touch with seals

571
00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:05,440
Speaker 1: or Delta guys or the rest of it. They're just

572
00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:08,240
Speaker 1: you know, first of all, I can't go on this,

573
00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:12,400
Speaker 1: this this global war on terror indefinitely, and you know,

574
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:18,080
Speaker 1: spending twenty years assaulting three or four houses a night,

575
00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:22,200
Speaker 1: and then all the PTSD that does, and then get

576
00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:26,000
Speaker 1: out and say, oh, by the way, you know, you know,

577
00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:29,680
Speaker 1: you're divorced and you've lost your family, and you don't

578
00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:32,040
Speaker 1: have enough to live on. You really you do have

579
00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:36,920
Speaker 1: to live on? Is going to your divorced life. There's

580
00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:42,320
Speaker 1: a cost to all this. And the comparisons to the

581
00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:45,479
Speaker 1: Roman Empire are kind of cliche, but I mean it's

582
00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:51,680
Speaker 1: almost unavoidable, isn't it. Yeah, Well, I mean it's you know,

583
00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:54,280
Speaker 1: for me, it's like if things would be a little

584
00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:58,600
Speaker 1: bit different, if we had a draft, very different, and

585
00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:01,400
Speaker 1: you wouldn't have this bubble, this elitist bubble in New

586
00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:05,520
Speaker 1: York and Los Angeles. You know, well, we don't really

587
00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:07,840
Speaker 1: do that. We don't serve in the military, you know,

588
00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:10,880
Speaker 1: because we're going to cheat our way into USC or wherever.

589
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:16,920
Speaker 1: And well it just irritates me, you know. And you know,

590
00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:21,160
Speaker 1: in this crap thank you for your service. You know,

591
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:25,160
Speaker 1: I've heard that over and that it's sort of meaningless. Yeah, yeah,

592
00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:28,839
Speaker 1: it is kind of a throwaway statement, isn't it. Yeah,

593
00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:30,799
Speaker 1: they don't care that you try to tell you know,

594
00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:33,239
Speaker 1: you try to talk about it. That's not that's enough.

595
00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:35,879
Speaker 1: We've heard, we've we've heard that's you know, we don't

596
00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:39,560
Speaker 1: need to know um. And and that you're right going

597
00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:44,600
Speaker 1: back to rome point where you're having a professional military,

598
00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:49,279
Speaker 1: it becomes detached from the republic and and it it

599
00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:54,399
Speaker 1: doesn't do us any any good in the long term. Well,

600
00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:58,040
Speaker 1: it's also that, as you mentioned, we're so comfortable here

601
00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:00,719
Speaker 1: in America. No, we don't really we have to know

602
00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:04,719
Speaker 1: what's going on abroad. We can send these these operators

603
00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:07,239
Speaker 1: overseas and they can hit three houses a night, and

604
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:10,080
Speaker 1: we don't really have to be engaged in that um

605
00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:12,880
Speaker 1: as a public or take any responsibility for it. You know,

606
00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:17,839
Speaker 1: we can just deploy that soldier fifteen times in a row,

607
00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:20,879
Speaker 1: and you know he's having all kinds of problems, which

608
00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:24,160
Speaker 1: is completely normal from living that kind of life, but

609
00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:29,439
Speaker 1: the public itself can disengage from it totally. They don't

610
00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:32,920
Speaker 1: even care. I mean, they don't even care. You know

611
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:38,040
Speaker 1: that the rules of combat have changed, and it's got

612
00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:41,120
Speaker 1: a psychological It's not like World War Two where you're

613
00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:46,000
Speaker 1: we have an enemy in a uniform, and when you're

614
00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:50,359
Speaker 1: going into a place blind you there are civilian casualties,

615
00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:54,040
Speaker 1: or you're using a drone, there are civilian casualties. So

616
00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:58,240
Speaker 1: the front lines are not clear cut at all. And

617
00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:00,719
Speaker 1: you know, these guys are coming back the same way

618
00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:05,360
Speaker 1: as the CIA, and they're they're they're detached from American

619
00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:07,799
Speaker 1: foreign policy and you're sitting you read the newspapers, you

620
00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:11,719
Speaker 1: talk to people in Washington and and they don't know

621
00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:14,400
Speaker 1: what they're talking about. And and a lot of the

622
00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:19,080
Speaker 1: CIA problems now people keep on reiterating this is they're

623
00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:22,960
Speaker 1: they're sent out to you know, someplace like coast or

624
00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:28,920
Speaker 1: Cobble or Bagdad and they're basically in the green zone. Um,

625
00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:31,480
Speaker 1: and they're you know, could they could get to talk

626
00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:34,120
Speaker 1: to the cheesh leak guy, but otherwise you can't go

627
00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:37,040
Speaker 1: out and Baghdad, bag that, or even be rout now

628
00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:41,600
Speaker 1: and without you know, a couple of suburbans and people

629
00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:43,640
Speaker 1: following you around, and you just don't get to know

630
00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:47,600
Speaker 1: a society unless you can go out and actually meet them.

631
00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:52,760
Speaker 1: Do you think I'm sorry? Go ahead, Yeah, well I'm plus,

632
00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:55,319
Speaker 1: you know, when the when the when the tours are

633
00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:58,600
Speaker 1: so short? If there's six months and you're sitting in

634
00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:00,840
Speaker 1: a in a base and a rack for six months,

635
00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:04,640
Speaker 1: how much can you really know? I was just gonna say,

636
00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:08,319
Speaker 1: I mean, does that represent a failure of the intelligence

637
00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:10,920
Speaker 1: community at this point that we have these case officers

638
00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:14,520
Speaker 1: that are charged with doing collecting human intelligence, but they

639
00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:16,960
Speaker 1: can't go and do their job in so many countries

640
00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:20,880
Speaker 1: now unless they have a bunch of you know, guys

641
00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:24,680
Speaker 1: like me, like former rangers, uh embody armor with them,

642
00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:28,640
Speaker 1: four is rolling out with them, um back, you know you.

643
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:31,240
Speaker 1: I mean I read your memoir before I joined the military.

644
00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:34,839
Speaker 1: I mean you were out there collecting info, collecting intelligence,

645
00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:36,800
Speaker 1: and I mean you were really out there by yourself,

646
00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:40,640
Speaker 1: just flapping in the breeze. Yeah. I was always out there,

647
00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:42,640
Speaker 1: even in it wasn't an Iraq, you know, It's just

648
00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:47,000
Speaker 1: we're driving in an suv, unmarked without plates or anything,

649
00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:50,319
Speaker 1: and sort of dressed like the locals, a couple of

650
00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:53,000
Speaker 1: collection of cops. But I mean, certainly you could go

651
00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:55,560
Speaker 1: in and spend the night with these people and listen

652
00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:57,920
Speaker 1: to them, which you couldn't do. Or I lived in

653
00:37:58,239 --> 00:38:02,600
Speaker 1: Iraq in a cave to hide from am I twenty four's,

654
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:05,960
Speaker 1: you know. But at least I I got a sense

655
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:09,680
Speaker 1: of the Koords and the Arabs. I mean that they

656
00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:12,560
Speaker 1: were frank and they're very untrustworthy, but that was at

657
00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:18,080
Speaker 1: least some sense, you know, And you can't do that anymore.

658
00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:20,279
Speaker 1: And a lot of people. It's funny because I meet

659
00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:22,200
Speaker 1: CIA people now and they said, oh, I got into

660
00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:24,279
Speaker 1: CIA because your book, because I thought I was going

661
00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:27,279
Speaker 1: to go out there and and you know, figure out

662
00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:29,319
Speaker 1: what these societies are about, and do you know, sort

663
00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:31,200
Speaker 1: of being the cowboy out there, And you can't do

664
00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:34,120
Speaker 1: that anymore. In fact, i've heard at the CIA they

665
00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:37,600
Speaker 1: now start their beginning classes for case officers saying who's

666
00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:39,560
Speaker 1: read Bob Bear's book? And see some people raised their

667
00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:42,080
Speaker 1: hands and they said, well, anybody who thinks you still

668
00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:45,040
Speaker 1: operate that way, you can leave right now. The guy

669
00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:48,960
Speaker 1: that quits that seven years later, when he quit, they

670
00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:52,600
Speaker 1: were given the same lecture. I've read two on some

671
00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:56,640
Speaker 1: other subsequent books, like what was Mazzetti's book, Way of

672
00:38:56,680 --> 00:38:59,600
Speaker 1: the Knife, and they talked about one case officer and

673
00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:02,440
Speaker 1: pack stand and he was basically his whole job was

674
00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:06,400
Speaker 1: just sitting in an office and running assets via email.

675
00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:10,239
Speaker 1: At least that's what it sounded like to me. It

676
00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:12,640
Speaker 1: is too dangerous. I mean that you can't really blame

677
00:39:12,640 --> 00:39:15,439
Speaker 1: it on the CIA entirely. It's just dangerous. They don't

678
00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:18,040
Speaker 1: I mean, they can't afford to have somebody kidnapped out

679
00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:22,080
Speaker 1: right on right or really assassinated. And that's the message

680
00:39:22,080 --> 00:39:24,040
Speaker 1: that comes down from the White House. No, we don't

681
00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:27,680
Speaker 1: need to a kidnap c I A guy like Bill

682
00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:35,640
Speaker 1: Buckley was in Beirut and and it just it just

683
00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:44,000
Speaker 1: makes you less intelligent. Wow, I was wondering since you

684
00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:47,600
Speaker 1: were discussing before about guys even in your community getting

685
00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:51,399
Speaker 1: hired by these hostile powers that we've been talking about. Uh,

686
00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:53,040
Speaker 1: you know, who need to make ends meet. As you're

687
00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:55,759
Speaker 1: talking about getting out of the military, getting out of intelligence.

688
00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:57,719
Speaker 1: It's it's hard to do, especially if you live in

689
00:39:57,719 --> 00:40:01,800
Speaker 1: a major city. Have have you had any propositions for

690
00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:05,799
Speaker 1: any work that you just didn't feel comfortable doing how

691
00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:07,759
Speaker 1: did you don't want to know the truth, because I say,

692
00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:11,440
Speaker 1: what's in my mind. I've had no propositions, clean or unclean.

693
00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:14,080
Speaker 1: It's funny, no one's ever had no one in all

694
00:40:14,080 --> 00:40:18,560
Speaker 1: these years, no one's ever said, hey, come consult for me. Mhm.

695
00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:20,960
Speaker 1: Which I don't know if that's I should take that

696
00:40:21,040 --> 00:40:24,960
Speaker 1: as a matter of pride, or they look at me

697
00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:30,879
Speaker 1: as a loose cannon. It's better to step aside now,

698
00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:34,080
Speaker 1: I mean, other than entertainment, I've just I've you know,

699
00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:37,400
Speaker 1: I can't say, well, we're gonna look. When I first

700
00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:40,680
Speaker 1: got out of the CIA, were my wife and our

701
00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:43,760
Speaker 1: approached by a Gulf country to keep taps on a prince,

702
00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:48,680
Speaker 1: which we ultimately, once we figured out what it was about,

703
00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:54,319
Speaker 1: we left. It was in Beirut, and and my wife

704
00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:56,080
Speaker 1: and I looked at each other and said, this is

705
00:40:56,120 --> 00:40:57,879
Speaker 1: before my book came out, and said no, we can't

706
00:40:57,880 --> 00:40:59,800
Speaker 1: do this. You know, It's just that's not what we

707
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:02,960
Speaker 1: yeared for to go after this guy. And then I

708
00:41:03,080 --> 00:41:07,239
Speaker 1: told the prince that they were going to nail him,

709
00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:12,560
Speaker 1: and indeed they did, but we left by then. He was, um,

710
00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:15,560
Speaker 1: so yeah, I mean I've been in a situation where

711
00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:19,600
Speaker 1: the Gulf. Gulf Country is looked at c I A

712
00:41:19,719 --> 00:41:23,879
Speaker 1: people is potential assets that they could and and it

713
00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:27,759
Speaker 1: wasn't even it wasn't even that I knew anything that

714
00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:29,799
Speaker 1: they were looking at me. They just wanted they needed

715
00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:32,959
Speaker 1: an American face or what they were doing. And that's

716
00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:36,320
Speaker 1: all they needed because what they needed to do was

717
00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:39,680
Speaker 1: go internally tell the royal family, Hey, we got the

718
00:41:39,719 --> 00:41:43,200
Speaker 1: Americans backing us up on this, even though there wasn't

719
00:41:43,239 --> 00:41:45,120
Speaker 1: there was nothing we could do. And that's what they

720
00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:48,120
Speaker 1: always wanted to put an American face on whatever you're doing.

721
00:41:48,719 --> 00:41:50,960
Speaker 1: And that means we got a green light from Washington,

722
00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:55,600
Speaker 1: and that sells internally. That's incredibly dangerous. Yeah, So I

723
00:41:55,600 --> 00:41:58,040
Speaker 1: mean so if you're if you're if you're a seal

724
00:41:58,120 --> 00:42:02,799
Speaker 1: in Yemen X seal and you're you're wandering around, they

725
00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:05,200
Speaker 1: can tell everybody else the mities, Hey, these guys are

726
00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:08,160
Speaker 1: really representing the United States and they you know, the

727
00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:10,600
Speaker 1: United States has got our back on this and and

728
00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:14,160
Speaker 1: the locals believe it. Meanwhile, like that article that came

729
00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:17,800
Speaker 1: out in Reuter's about the n s A folks working

730
00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:21,200
Speaker 1: for the U a E. They it was a like

731
00:42:21,239 --> 00:42:24,719
Speaker 1: a senior n S A official, um former senior n

732
00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:27,320
Speaker 1: s A official working that contract, and he was recruiting

733
00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:30,080
Speaker 1: all his old bros from the n s A and

734
00:42:30,120 --> 00:42:32,319
Speaker 1: telling them like, yeah, this thing has been approved by

735
00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:36,600
Speaker 1: the United States government. When it happened, Yeah, yeah, I

736
00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:39,359
Speaker 1: mean that's what mean. People don't know. They call him

737
00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:41,360
Speaker 1: up and say, hey, you know, we've we've got a

738
00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:45,440
Speaker 1: license to export this stuff. And I think that's what

739
00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:48,760
Speaker 1: they were saying with the Kochi stuff that they tracked

740
00:42:48,840 --> 00:42:51,680
Speaker 1: him with. They're going around saying, hey, we got a license,

741
00:42:51,719 --> 00:42:54,319
Speaker 1: we got a green light from the CIA on this technology,

742
00:42:54,440 --> 00:42:56,839
Speaker 1: so we're good to go. I mean, it's not like

743
00:42:56,880 --> 00:42:59,160
Speaker 1: you can get your lawyer to check it out. You

744
00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:01,319
Speaker 1: can't go in to see i A headquarters and wine

745
00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:05,120
Speaker 1: round saying hey, is this really approved? So people will

746
00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:09,640
Speaker 1: just you know, say whatever to recruit people. And these

747
00:43:09,680 --> 00:43:12,000
Speaker 1: ponds are usually the ones that go down and the

748
00:43:12,040 --> 00:43:15,640
Speaker 1: big guys doing the contracts don't. I've noticed that as well,

749
00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:19,279
Speaker 1: that people exploit the you know, the secretive nature of

750
00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:21,600
Speaker 1: the CIA, which it has for a reason to protect

751
00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:26,400
Speaker 1: its sources and methods, but the frauds will exploit it.

752
00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:29,719
Speaker 1: And my favorite example, of course is Wayne Simmons, who's

753
00:43:29,719 --> 00:43:32,879
Speaker 1: a Fox News to see his name? Yeah, yeah, yeah,

754
00:43:32,920 --> 00:43:34,920
Speaker 1: I mean what did you make of that whole situation,

755
00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:39,839
Speaker 1: Bob Well, I looked at his his background, and I've

756
00:43:39,880 --> 00:43:44,240
Speaker 1: never heard of any anything like that. I'd have somebody

757
00:43:44,239 --> 00:43:47,759
Speaker 1: walk up to me and there's living in California and say, hey,

758
00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:50,680
Speaker 1: I'm I was at CIA and I know this guy.

759
00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:53,040
Speaker 1: Know that guy, and I didn't really question him. But

760
00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:55,040
Speaker 1: he turned out to be a total fraud. But he

761
00:43:55,160 --> 00:43:58,720
Speaker 1: fooled me as an insider. But this guy Wayne Simmons

762
00:43:58,880 --> 00:44:01,880
Speaker 1: was clearly tucking about some unit that I knew didn't exist.

763
00:44:01,920 --> 00:44:03,880
Speaker 1: It's not the way things work. He wasn't very smart

764
00:44:03,880 --> 00:44:06,840
Speaker 1: about it. But if you if you sat down and

765
00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:10,560
Speaker 1: new some c I A people, you could completely fake it.

766
00:44:10,680 --> 00:44:13,400
Speaker 1: I've seen people do that with Mosa too, that weren't

767
00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:16,400
Speaker 1: in Mosad, that were like, you know, t s A

768
00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:19,120
Speaker 1: guys at Televie Airports saying they were really you know,

769
00:44:19,560 --> 00:44:23,000
Speaker 1: Israeli intelligence, which just is not true. You see it

770
00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:25,600
Speaker 1: all the time. But what what I don't get is,

771
00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:27,279
Speaker 1: I mean, if you were onto him, I feel like,

772
00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:29,680
Speaker 1: to be honest, Jack, you were on to him before

773
00:44:29,880 --> 00:44:32,759
Speaker 1: anything came out. You told me years before. I mean,

774
00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:35,360
Speaker 1: how does he fool guy like Donald Rumsfeld and become

775
00:44:35,360 --> 00:44:39,440
Speaker 1: an advisor to the war in Iraq? Well, the I

776
00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:40,920
Speaker 1: don't know how they do it. I think they mean,

777
00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:43,960
Speaker 1: like Rumshell doesn't take the time, and you know, they

778
00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:47,000
Speaker 1: depend on staff to do due diligence. And I know

779
00:44:47,120 --> 00:44:52,960
Speaker 1: agency people that around the building and they're on contract

780
00:44:53,040 --> 00:44:55,919
Speaker 1: and they can't even get the agency to say something

781
00:44:55,960 --> 00:44:59,680
Speaker 1: about somebody out there in public. And some of these

782
00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:02,960
Speaker 1: will have no connection to the CIA, and there others

783
00:45:03,040 --> 00:45:05,320
Speaker 1: out there I don't want to name them, and some

784
00:45:05,520 --> 00:45:08,600
Speaker 1: of them were briefly worked there but pretend they had

785
00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:13,240
Speaker 1: a career in in operations and and didn't. Another favorite

786
00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:16,719
Speaker 1: is Larry Johnson, who poked his turtle head back out

787
00:45:16,840 --> 00:45:20,600
Speaker 1: just yesterday to again make the claim that Australia and

788
00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:23,920
Speaker 1: the UK were somehow involved in the Steel dossier and

789
00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:27,920
Speaker 1: the whole conspiracy theory. And Larry Johnson is like a

790
00:45:27,960 --> 00:45:31,160
Speaker 1: conspiracy theorist who I think he was an agency analyst

791
00:45:31,239 --> 00:45:35,440
Speaker 1: for like a year in or something like this. Yeah,

792
00:45:35,440 --> 00:45:36,600
Speaker 1: and then he went to he went to work for

793
00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:40,600
Speaker 1: the State Department. I know Larry Johnson is very convincing,

794
00:45:40,719 --> 00:45:43,560
Speaker 1: but and I've also heard the stories that the g

795
00:45:44,040 --> 00:45:48,719
Speaker 1: h Q we're the ones that tapped Trump's phone. Um,

796
00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:50,640
Speaker 1: I've heard that going around, but of course there's no

797
00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:55,279
Speaker 1: evidence for it. And this is in Trump Tower, but

798
00:45:55,360 --> 00:45:57,759
Speaker 1: there's no there's no you know, nothing that you you know,

799
00:45:57,840 --> 00:46:00,600
Speaker 1: a claim like that, you have a big at piece

800
00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:04,399
Speaker 1: of evidence is absolutely crucial, and there just isn't any

801
00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:08,040
Speaker 1: out there. And you know, it's so funny. After the

802
00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:11,080
Speaker 1: Trump thing, so many people missas, yeah, they that bad

803
00:46:11,160 --> 00:46:15,279
Speaker 1: Obama tapped his phones. And I said, all right, First

804
00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:17,400
Speaker 1: I called up the FBI and said, all right, how

805
00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:21,560
Speaker 1: many people would it take to tap Trump Tower landlines?

806
00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:23,920
Speaker 1: And said, I would take about a hundred, you know,

807
00:46:24,080 --> 00:46:27,239
Speaker 1: run a wire room, and and it would take uh,

808
00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:30,800
Speaker 1: you know, the illegally a T and T would have

809
00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:33,319
Speaker 1: to sign off on this to put actuators on the phone.

810
00:46:34,040 --> 00:46:35,759
Speaker 1: So they're not gonna happen to the FBI. And they

811
00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:38,600
Speaker 1: can't even agree where they're going to lunch to FBI agents,

812
00:46:38,719 --> 00:46:42,319
Speaker 1: let alone conspiracy for a lame duck president. And then

813
00:46:42,400 --> 00:46:45,160
Speaker 1: I then I checked the Task Force Orange and said, yeah,

814
00:46:45,200 --> 00:46:47,160
Speaker 1: we could do it, but you'd still need a hundred people,

815
00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:51,560
Speaker 1: you know, in Manhattan to get through fiber optics, and

816
00:46:51,680 --> 00:46:54,040
Speaker 1: so it's you know, conspiracy like that you just really

817
00:46:54,080 --> 00:47:00,279
Speaker 1: couldn't carry off. And for the British two illegally tap

818
00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:05,920
Speaker 1: the land lines of a candidate, that's that would be

819
00:47:06,120 --> 00:47:08,760
Speaker 1: very ballsy. Would I would find that difficult to believe

820
00:47:08,800 --> 00:47:11,840
Speaker 1: in any case, in all these conspiracy theories. Show me

821
00:47:11,960 --> 00:47:15,879
Speaker 1: some evidence, you know, and I'll start I'll start thinking

822
00:47:15,880 --> 00:47:19,480
Speaker 1: about it. That's actually interesting that it would take that

823
00:47:19,640 --> 00:47:23,520
Speaker 1: many people to monitor the landlines coming out of one building.

824
00:47:23,560 --> 00:47:27,760
Speaker 1: You'd think they'd have some better system. Yeah, they actually

825
00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:29,680
Speaker 1: have to go the phone company and put actuators on

826
00:47:29,760 --> 00:47:33,520
Speaker 1: the lines. That's for the for the copper and for

827
00:47:33,760 --> 00:47:36,840
Speaker 1: the fiber optics. Apparently, I don't know how you do it.

828
00:47:36,960 --> 00:47:40,520
Speaker 1: You can do this remotely, but you would need a

829
00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:43,040
Speaker 1: part of the military to agree to break the law,

830
00:47:43,239 --> 00:47:45,719
Speaker 1: and they know flat out it's a celony. You've got

831
00:47:45,760 --> 00:47:48,240
Speaker 1: to jail with thirty years. Yeah, you'd have to spike

832
00:47:48,320 --> 00:47:51,160
Speaker 1: the fiber like um like the submarines do when they

833
00:47:51,239 --> 00:47:55,200
Speaker 1: tap fiber. Yeah, you can. You can bend it or

834
00:47:55,280 --> 00:47:57,320
Speaker 1: some damn thing, or you can. I don't know what

835
00:47:57,760 --> 00:48:00,480
Speaker 1: it's been explained to me, but it's too complicated. Um,

836
00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:03,440
Speaker 1: but anyhow, everybody agrees that would you take a lot

837
00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:05,440
Speaker 1: of people and as you know, in the government, you

838
00:48:05,480 --> 00:48:13,400
Speaker 1: can't keep a secret, especially one this big. Yeah, that

839
00:48:13,520 --> 00:48:15,040
Speaker 1: kind of like gets into like the same thing with

840
00:48:15,080 --> 00:48:17,960
Speaker 1: the nine eleven conspiracy theories. It's like, you mean to

841
00:48:18,080 --> 00:48:21,719
Speaker 1: tell me hundreds of people, you know, tore down facades

842
00:48:21,760 --> 00:48:24,400
Speaker 1: in these buildings and put explosives in them without anyone

843
00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:27,680
Speaker 1: knowing about it? Really? Yeah, put charges, okay, buddy, you know,

844
00:48:27,840 --> 00:48:31,440
Speaker 1: precisely put in running up and down the World Trade

845
00:48:31,520 --> 00:48:33,800
Speaker 1: Center to take it. Time. Just it's so crazy, you

846
00:48:33,840 --> 00:48:37,880
Speaker 1: don't even know where to start. And it's you know,

847
00:48:37,960 --> 00:48:40,680
Speaker 1: it's like what the CIA didn't tell the FBI about

848
00:48:40,719 --> 00:48:45,120
Speaker 1: those two hijackers legist share in competence, you know, Oh yeah,

849
00:48:46,000 --> 00:48:50,120
Speaker 1: failure of imagination, that's what it was. Yeah, you're talking

850
00:48:50,120 --> 00:48:53,800
Speaker 1: about the that documentary that I think the New Yorker

851
00:48:53,960 --> 00:48:57,160
Speaker 1: put it together with. Isn't Richard Clark in it? And

852
00:48:57,280 --> 00:49:00,160
Speaker 1: Ali Safon And they're talking about the FBI and the

853
00:49:00,239 --> 00:49:04,359
Speaker 1: CIA not talking in one another about the hijackers. Well,

854
00:49:04,400 --> 00:49:07,560
Speaker 1: they knew about that, that meeting, that meeting in Kuala

855
00:49:07,640 --> 00:49:09,800
Speaker 1: Lumpoor and then these guys when them went off to

856
00:49:09,920 --> 00:49:14,720
Speaker 1: Thailand and got a visa, and and you know, people

857
00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:18,560
Speaker 1: just didn't put two plus two together, you know. And

858
00:49:18,680 --> 00:49:21,600
Speaker 1: I know the people that didn't do it, and they

859
00:49:21,680 --> 00:49:26,480
Speaker 1: weren't you know, the sharpest tool in the shed, yeah,

860
00:49:27,200 --> 00:49:29,800
Speaker 1: you know, and then they just assumed somebody else that

861
00:49:29,920 --> 00:49:31,920
Speaker 1: told the FBI. And then I asked the FBI, and

862
00:49:32,000 --> 00:49:34,440
Speaker 1: I said, he said, well, these guys didn't commit a crime.

863
00:49:35,960 --> 00:49:39,400
Speaker 1: You know, presumably they could get state department to withdraw

864
00:49:39,480 --> 00:49:42,160
Speaker 1: their visas and send them out of the country. But

865
00:49:42,400 --> 00:49:46,480
Speaker 1: in order to do a full you know, telephone taps

866
00:49:46,560 --> 00:49:48,600
Speaker 1: and the rest of it, you pretty well have to

867
00:49:48,640 --> 00:49:51,239
Speaker 1: commit a crime. And even if they had identified them

868
00:49:52,120 --> 00:49:55,600
Speaker 1: getting on the airplanes as suspicious, that FBI agent told

869
00:49:55,600 --> 00:49:57,440
Speaker 1: me this was a sign of the case. They couldn't

870
00:49:57,440 --> 00:49:59,640
Speaker 1: do anything except follow them once they got to the

871
00:49:59,719 --> 00:50:01,919
Speaker 1: desk a nation. Of course, that was too late by them.

872
00:50:03,480 --> 00:50:06,400
Speaker 1: I mean, FBI rest people for committing crimes, not for

873
00:50:06,680 --> 00:50:09,680
Speaker 1: on suspicions, you know, to we we forget what the

874
00:50:09,760 --> 00:50:14,600
Speaker 1: system is. Yeah, they have to work within our constitutional framework.

875
00:50:15,160 --> 00:50:17,399
Speaker 1: Do you think the agency was trying to target those

876
00:50:17,440 --> 00:50:20,080
Speaker 1: guys for eventual recruitment though? That they were interested in

877
00:50:20,200 --> 00:50:23,640
Speaker 1: recruiting them as assets. No, I think that's a rumor.

878
00:50:23,719 --> 00:50:30,279
Speaker 1: There's no evidence that. I mean, there was no there

879
00:50:30,280 --> 00:50:33,840
Speaker 1: would have been a message to the CIA office in

880
00:50:33,920 --> 00:50:36,200
Speaker 1: Los Angeles or San Diego. I don't even know if

881
00:50:36,200 --> 00:50:38,000
Speaker 1: there's one in San Diego. Yes, I think there's one.

882
00:50:38,200 --> 00:50:40,879
Speaker 1: It's a small office, saying hey, let's find a way

883
00:50:40,920 --> 00:50:45,080
Speaker 1: to meet these guys. And every time I've ever tried

884
00:50:45,280 --> 00:50:49,360
Speaker 1: to recruit somebody a terrorist that came to this country

885
00:50:49,400 --> 00:50:53,480
Speaker 1: on a visitors visa, we called the local FBI office

886
00:50:54,120 --> 00:50:56,960
Speaker 1: and they'd actually drive us to the meeting where we'd

887
00:50:57,000 --> 00:50:59,680
Speaker 1: meet these guys and try to recruit them. Because you

888
00:50:59,760 --> 00:51:03,000
Speaker 1: need all a metadata, you need to talk to neighbors

889
00:51:03,080 --> 00:51:04,840
Speaker 1: and whatever you need, or if there's some sort of

890
00:51:04,880 --> 00:51:08,880
Speaker 1: as sociate, you need the FBI involved. So the CIA

891
00:51:09,040 --> 00:51:10,840
Speaker 1: does not, as a matter of course, go out and

892
00:51:10,880 --> 00:51:15,160
Speaker 1: try to recruit these people inside this country. And it

893
00:51:15,280 --> 00:51:18,040
Speaker 1: just it just doesn't does not the culture I recall

894
00:51:18,120 --> 00:51:20,719
Speaker 1: in your book, if I remember correctly, that you were

895
00:51:21,160 --> 00:51:23,560
Speaker 1: working with somebody in the United States during the Gulf

896
00:51:23,640 --> 00:51:29,520
Speaker 1: War that you're trying to recruit. Yeah, yeah, I mean

897
00:51:29,640 --> 00:51:32,239
Speaker 1: we we could do it, but it was. We had

898
00:51:32,280 --> 00:51:35,000
Speaker 1: these offices in major cities, but they're mainly to talk

899
00:51:35,080 --> 00:51:40,040
Speaker 1: to businessmen or to look at students or visitors to

900
00:51:40,160 --> 00:51:44,200
Speaker 1: the country. And I've worked with a bunch of times

901
00:51:44,320 --> 00:51:47,640
Speaker 1: where the FBI would identify somebody and say, hey, he's

902
00:51:47,640 --> 00:51:49,399
Speaker 1: going to be here for two weeks, do you guys

903
00:51:49,440 --> 00:51:51,719
Speaker 1: want to recruit him? And there was. It was a

904
00:51:51,800 --> 00:51:56,760
Speaker 1: matter of cooperation. So if if the counter Terrorism Center

905
00:51:56,840 --> 00:52:01,080
Speaker 1: went after the two hijackers in San Diego, that would

906
00:52:01,120 --> 00:52:05,440
Speaker 1: be totally completely a black swan. Just it just doesn't

907
00:52:05,520 --> 00:52:09,960
Speaker 1: happen right Unilaterally. They have to coordinate. They do, and

908
00:52:10,200 --> 00:52:13,279
Speaker 1: you know, there may be one person who just you know,

909
00:52:13,880 --> 00:52:16,480
Speaker 1: goes rogue and tries it, but there's no evidence and

910
00:52:16,760 --> 00:52:20,239
Speaker 1: and that kind of thing. You know, all the investigation

911
00:52:20,320 --> 00:52:23,040
Speaker 1: in the nine eleven something would have come out by

912
00:52:23,120 --> 00:52:25,120
Speaker 1: now that there was an attempt to recruit them. So

913
00:52:25,280 --> 00:52:29,359
Speaker 1: people who say there was are are just speculator trying

914
00:52:29,400 --> 00:52:34,960
Speaker 1: to explain incompetence. Yeah, no, I mean, sadly, you're probably right.

915
00:52:35,080 --> 00:52:40,680
Speaker 1: Probably what it probably isn't competence rather than conspiracy. Yeah,

916
00:52:40,760 --> 00:52:43,319
Speaker 1: it was like it's like Sri Lanka. You know, hey,

917
00:52:43,480 --> 00:52:48,000
Speaker 1: you guys were given the address these potential suicide bombers.

918
00:52:48,280 --> 00:52:51,080
Speaker 1: They were named the Indians gave it to him on

919
00:52:51,160 --> 00:52:56,440
Speaker 1: four April Sri Lanka's and some dummy decided, well, you

920
00:52:56,520 --> 00:52:58,840
Speaker 1: know these are nose, these kids are from nice families.

921
00:52:58,880 --> 00:53:06,520
Speaker 1: It couldn't possibly be. Yeah. Um, I was actually curious, Bob.

922
00:53:07,040 --> 00:53:09,160
Speaker 1: The last book that you put out, the Perfect Kill

923
00:53:09,560 --> 00:53:12,760
Speaker 1: twenty one Laws for Assassins. It's been I think nearly

924
00:53:12,880 --> 00:53:15,520
Speaker 1: five years since that has been out. Are you working

925
00:53:15,560 --> 00:53:20,279
Speaker 1: on any new projects? I'm looking Yeah, I'm looking at it.

926
00:53:20,360 --> 00:53:23,359
Speaker 1: I'm trying to write a book proposal. And it's very

927
00:53:23,480 --> 00:53:28,520
Speaker 1: goes very excruciating because with global warming, everybody's talking about

928
00:53:28,600 --> 00:53:32,880
Speaker 1: social collapse. A lot of scientists are that. You know,

929
00:53:32,880 --> 00:53:35,080
Speaker 1: if it gets as bad as a lot of people

930
00:53:35,160 --> 00:53:38,360
Speaker 1: suspect it will, it's going to involve social collapse. Like

931
00:53:38,480 --> 00:53:43,399
Speaker 1: Syria was largely civil war was driven by drought, as

932
00:53:43,520 --> 00:53:47,160
Speaker 1: it is in Somalia and in Afghanistan and Molly and

933
00:53:47,200 --> 00:53:50,840
Speaker 1: every You just go right down the line, So what

934
00:53:51,120 --> 00:53:54,440
Speaker 1: what would social collapse look like? And I'm working with

935
00:53:54,520 --> 00:53:59,080
Speaker 1: a guy from Doctors Without Borders who is the liaison

936
00:53:59,280 --> 00:54:01,480
Speaker 1: with shebak Up in the Taliban and things like that,

937
00:54:01,719 --> 00:54:04,279
Speaker 1: he's a Canadian, so we're trying to put you know,

938
00:54:05,880 --> 00:54:08,759
Speaker 1: if things fall apart on the on the rim, or

939
00:54:08,920 --> 00:54:12,480
Speaker 1: even closer to home, what's what does it look like?

940
00:54:12,840 --> 00:54:16,560
Speaker 1: And both of us are spent our careers in failed societies,

941
00:54:16,840 --> 00:54:21,600
Speaker 1: and we're trying to go there. And I'm assuming this

942
00:54:21,719 --> 00:54:25,680
Speaker 1: would be a nonfiction book just basically sounds like a

943
00:54:25,760 --> 00:54:30,000
Speaker 1: dystopian novel. That's why I ask, Yeah, well, I mean

944
00:54:30,040 --> 00:54:32,480
Speaker 1: it's like this one guy, he was doing m he

945
00:54:32,560 --> 00:54:35,680
Speaker 1: built a hospital bowl of hospitals. He supervised him, and

946
00:54:36,400 --> 00:54:37,960
Speaker 1: the question is what do you do with the waste

947
00:54:38,080 --> 00:54:41,320
Speaker 1: from these hospitals and the and the dead bodies. Because

948
00:54:41,360 --> 00:54:46,160
Speaker 1: the water tables only two ft, you can't bury him um.

949
00:54:47,360 --> 00:54:53,720
Speaker 1: And he also worked on pandemics and Siberia multi resistant TB.

950
00:54:54,760 --> 00:54:57,520
Speaker 1: I mean, what do you do about things like that?

951
00:54:57,800 --> 00:55:01,160
Speaker 1: Or in Iraq there's a huge case of osteo militis

952
00:55:02,400 --> 00:55:06,560
Speaker 1: and that's sort of ground zero for these superbugs and

953
00:55:07,239 --> 00:55:10,359
Speaker 1: rising temperatures and the rest of it. And there there

954
00:55:10,400 --> 00:55:12,640
Speaker 1: have been societies in the past that have collapsed because

955
00:55:12,680 --> 00:55:17,800
Speaker 1: global warming civilizations and you know, I mean, I'm not

956
00:55:17,880 --> 00:55:20,000
Speaker 1: even sure that makes a book, but I think a

957
00:55:20,080 --> 00:55:23,480
Speaker 1: lot about it. I also enjoyed your book. I believe

958
00:55:23,600 --> 00:55:25,840
Speaker 1: it was called Sleeping with the Devil, the one about

959
00:55:25,960 --> 00:55:31,359
Speaker 1: k s A. Yeah, yeah, it's a good book as well.

960
00:55:31,520 --> 00:55:33,719
Speaker 1: I you know, come on, we gotta face at the Saudis.

961
00:55:34,239 --> 00:55:39,520
Speaker 1: We're in the Pakistani's. We're keeping bin Lotten College. Shake Mohammad.

962
00:55:39,560 --> 00:55:42,320
Speaker 1: They were protecting them. I mean, you cannot sit in

963
00:55:42,360 --> 00:55:45,520
Speaker 1: a botta body without the Pakistani's involved. And Gates said

964
00:55:45,560 --> 00:55:48,880
Speaker 1: they were. And you know, for for a country like

965
00:55:48,960 --> 00:55:52,600
Speaker 1: Saudi Arabia or Pakistan to protect our number one enemy,

966
00:55:52,880 --> 00:55:55,440
Speaker 1: well that it's not a good son. He was a

967
00:55:55,560 --> 00:55:58,560
Speaker 1: bada bad which it was like their neighborhood. It was

968
00:55:58,600 --> 00:56:01,040
Speaker 1: kind of like the west point of Pakistan. You know,

969
00:56:01,320 --> 00:56:04,560
Speaker 1: he was in a protected area. Well, I mean you

970
00:56:04,680 --> 00:56:06,480
Speaker 1: in Pakistan, I've lived there a lot. Is you know

971
00:56:06,640 --> 00:56:09,080
Speaker 1: you David, the chokey dar. The guy sits out front,

972
00:56:09,160 --> 00:56:13,040
Speaker 1: reports to s I, to the to Pakistani intelligence. Everything

973
00:56:13,080 --> 00:56:16,440
Speaker 1: you got shopping. They come around in question, would that

974
00:56:16,520 --> 00:56:18,600
Speaker 1: foreigner do well? He went out, drove out in his

975
00:56:18,760 --> 00:56:20,719
Speaker 1: car of his license plate number, and they give a

976
00:56:20,760 --> 00:56:23,520
Speaker 1: little piece of paper. I've seen him and same thing

977
00:56:23,600 --> 00:56:26,680
Speaker 1: applies to a bot about these weird foreigners are living

978
00:56:26,760 --> 00:56:31,439
Speaker 1: in this very large house and not you know, they're

979
00:56:31,440 --> 00:56:33,440
Speaker 1: burning their trash, They're not throwing it out in the

980
00:56:33,480 --> 00:56:36,520
Speaker 1: street or whatever they do with it. Something, something weird

981
00:56:36,640 --> 00:56:39,880
Speaker 1: is going on. So they knew somebody in Pakistan, as

982
00:56:39,960 --> 00:56:44,319
Speaker 1: Gates said, And you know, it's just it's a bad thing.

983
00:56:44,400 --> 00:56:46,840
Speaker 1: I'm telling you, when you're when your allies are protecting

984
00:56:46,960 --> 00:56:50,000
Speaker 1: your number one enemy. Well, we've talked about it quite

985
00:56:50,000 --> 00:56:51,719
Speaker 1: a bit on this podcast, and maybe while we have

986
00:56:51,880 --> 00:56:54,680
Speaker 1: you here for a moment, do you want to give

987
00:56:54,719 --> 00:56:58,480
Speaker 1: your take on the controversy around that raid and how

988
00:56:58,600 --> 00:57:00,920
Speaker 1: all of that went down and we ended up getting

989
00:57:00,920 --> 00:57:05,479
Speaker 1: ben Laden. I mean, what do you think actually happened there? Well,

990
00:57:05,760 --> 00:57:13,960
Speaker 1: I I worked a lot with Delta and on assaults

991
00:57:14,480 --> 00:57:20,880
Speaker 1: and hostage rescue things, and they were they got to

992
00:57:20,960 --> 00:57:24,640
Speaker 1: the point after Desert one they would only go in

993
00:57:26,080 --> 00:57:29,000
Speaker 1: to a remote area like that with overwhelming force and

994
00:57:29,120 --> 00:57:32,000
Speaker 1: air cover, which would an air cover, which we know

995
00:57:32,120 --> 00:57:36,560
Speaker 1: they did. They had that was stacked up. But the

996
00:57:36,720 --> 00:57:41,880
Speaker 1: question is what's what's what's the standoff? Jamming? It's probably

997
00:57:41,880 --> 00:57:46,600
Speaker 1: a hundred fifty miles and they had to refuel over

998
00:57:46,680 --> 00:57:52,160
Speaker 1: the tribal areas, so there was some message went to Pakistan.

999
00:57:52,680 --> 00:57:54,680
Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure saying we can do this the hard

1000
00:57:54,720 --> 00:57:57,560
Speaker 1: way or the easy way, because how do you jam

1001
00:57:57,720 --> 00:58:00,920
Speaker 1: the radar is Lam about international air work with all

1002
00:58:01,040 --> 00:58:05,000
Speaker 1: that ship in the air. You can't, I mean and

1003
00:58:05,120 --> 00:58:09,680
Speaker 1: not have the Pakistani Air Force scramble. And if they scramble,

1004
00:58:09,800 --> 00:58:13,760
Speaker 1: that's the last thing you need. Or when there was

1005
00:58:13,840 --> 00:58:19,800
Speaker 1: something when the military was waved off in Islamabad because um,

1006
00:58:20,080 --> 00:58:23,520
Speaker 1: the locals called the police when they saw the helicopter

1007
00:58:23,880 --> 00:58:26,680
Speaker 1: crash and burn as you would, as anybody would. And

1008
00:58:26,720 --> 00:58:29,080
Speaker 1: the police also, don't worry about it. We know what's

1009
00:58:29,120 --> 00:58:34,960
Speaker 1: going on, the military told us. So I've had people

1010
00:58:35,040 --> 00:58:36,720
Speaker 1: in the White House that were there at the time.

1011
00:58:37,840 --> 00:58:41,360
Speaker 1: I've had people at State Department working for Carrie at

1012
00:58:41,360 --> 00:58:46,000
Speaker 1: the time have told me that flat out, that that

1013
00:58:46,400 --> 00:58:49,480
Speaker 1: is that it came as a total surprise the Pakistani's.

1014
00:58:49,560 --> 00:58:54,600
Speaker 1: I just I don't understand how. You know, twenty four

1015
00:58:54,720 --> 00:58:56,920
Speaker 1: seals got ahead of the pack like that they never

1016
00:58:57,080 --> 00:59:01,840
Speaker 1: have in any operation. And those fighter jets stayed on

1017
00:59:01,880 --> 00:59:05,160
Speaker 1: the ground that night. Yeah, and they and they and

1018
00:59:05,320 --> 00:59:09,880
Speaker 1: what would you do if the Pakistani's were totally surprised?

1019
00:59:09,920 --> 00:59:12,080
Speaker 1: But there was a patrol out that night. You know

1020
00:59:12,160 --> 00:59:13,760
Speaker 1: what a bot about. I mean, if there's some guys

1021
00:59:13,840 --> 00:59:16,640
Speaker 1: just pulling out, pulling out a base and an exercise

1022
00:59:16,760 --> 00:59:19,440
Speaker 1: and you know, with live ammo and they saw this

1023
00:59:19,600 --> 00:59:23,400
Speaker 1: going on. I don't know. I just but I'm not

1024
00:59:23,680 --> 00:59:27,120
Speaker 1: you know this This is not my specialty, is it.

1025
00:59:27,240 --> 00:59:28,720
Speaker 1: All I know is if I were in the White

1026
00:59:28,800 --> 00:59:32,000
Speaker 1: House in our gates, I would call it the Pakistani

1027
00:59:32,120 --> 00:59:37,000
Speaker 1: Chief of State, uh Defense Secretary and my chief staff

1028
00:59:37,240 --> 00:59:40,960
Speaker 1: chief of staff and say hey, let's don't let's don't

1029
00:59:41,000 --> 00:59:44,320
Speaker 1: let this become a problem. Yeah. Yeah, like we're gonna

1030
00:59:44,400 --> 00:59:47,680
Speaker 1: do this. We can destroy your entire fleet of fighter

1031
00:59:47,720 --> 00:59:49,920
Speaker 1: aircraft tonight or not. That's kind of up to you,

1032
00:59:50,400 --> 00:59:53,200
Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, I mean that's the only sensible thing

1033
00:59:53,280 --> 00:59:58,000
Speaker 1: to do. I just don't know how that message was passed. Yeah,

1034
00:59:58,160 --> 00:59:59,840
Speaker 1: I mean it definitely seems like some sort of a

1035
01:00:00,040 --> 01:00:03,920
Speaker 1: durrance was made. Yeah, I mean, you know, and you

1036
01:00:03,960 --> 01:00:06,320
Speaker 1: don't have to talk to somebody about the refueling for

1037
01:00:06,400 --> 01:00:09,200
Speaker 1: those Blackhawks because they could be they either would have

1038
01:00:09,280 --> 01:00:13,080
Speaker 1: had to do it with a FARP yes um and

1039
01:00:13,240 --> 01:00:15,520
Speaker 1: like five guys in the tribal areas, which is not

1040
01:00:15,680 --> 01:00:18,000
Speaker 1: possible without the Pexstan. You know, they would have had

1041
01:00:18,040 --> 01:00:20,560
Speaker 1: to do it from the air, and there's a lot

1042
01:00:20,640 --> 01:00:23,280
Speaker 1: of slow moving aircraft be flying over a country that

1043
01:00:23,320 --> 01:00:25,640
Speaker 1: wouldn't be picked up by the air force. But I'm

1044
01:00:25,640 --> 01:00:29,240
Speaker 1: passing that on secondhand. What people that do this for

1045
01:00:29,280 --> 01:00:33,440
Speaker 1: a living tell me or so? But I defer to

1046
01:00:33,520 --> 01:00:35,960
Speaker 1: you guys. Yeah, no, I don't know if those aircraft

1047
01:00:36,040 --> 01:00:39,360
Speaker 1: even had um were the refueling pods for mid air

1048
01:00:39,440 --> 01:00:42,320
Speaker 1: refueling UM Yeah, I don't know that either, And they

1049
01:00:42,600 --> 01:00:45,080
Speaker 1: came out so they had a staging ground in Afghanistan.

1050
01:00:46,040 --> 01:00:48,920
Speaker 1: I mean, a FARP can be thrown up fairly quickly.

1051
01:00:49,080 --> 01:00:52,440
Speaker 1: You just throw some aircraft, uh, fly some helicopters into

1052
01:00:52,520 --> 01:00:55,560
Speaker 1: an area where there's not too many people, offload fuel

1053
01:00:55,600 --> 01:00:57,840
Speaker 1: bladders and you know, have a couple of Jo's standing

1054
01:00:57,880 --> 01:01:00,240
Speaker 1: by rate A felt the aircraft when they land. But

1055
01:01:00,880 --> 01:01:04,040
Speaker 1: that's just speculative on my part. Well, in the tribal area,

1056
01:01:04,080 --> 01:01:06,720
Speaker 1: I wouldn't want to go down there with less than fiers.

1057
01:01:07,160 --> 01:01:11,080
Speaker 1: You know, seriously, we're crazy up there. If that's where

1058
01:01:11,080 --> 01:01:14,240
Speaker 1: it would have been, you'd have to look at the map. Um.

1059
01:01:16,120 --> 01:01:19,080
Speaker 1: You certainly wouldn't want to do it clandestinely. You're not.

1060
01:01:19,120 --> 01:01:20,680
Speaker 1: You're not going to do that in the tribal areas.

1061
01:01:22,120 --> 01:01:24,160
Speaker 1: The other thing that I've written about a little bit

1062
01:01:24,200 --> 01:01:26,760
Speaker 1: in the past. Um, what do you make of this

1063
01:01:26,880 --> 01:01:28,800
Speaker 1: whole story that came out of the White House that

1064
01:01:28,960 --> 01:01:33,480
Speaker 1: we buried Jacobin Laden at sea? Oh? I think that's

1065
01:01:33,600 --> 01:01:38,720
Speaker 1: there's there's you know, well, the problem is that the

1066
01:01:38,760 --> 01:01:42,120
Speaker 1: White House lied from from the first moment about that,

1067
01:01:42,240 --> 01:01:43,960
Speaker 1: so it's hard to tell what's true and what's not

1068
01:01:45,680 --> 01:01:48,040
Speaker 1: about that. There was a gunfight with Ben Laden and

1069
01:01:48,080 --> 01:01:52,720
Speaker 1: the rest of it. You've heard that, But um, I

1070
01:01:53,200 --> 01:01:56,360
Speaker 1: think it's somebody smart would have said, let's get rid

1071
01:01:56,400 --> 01:01:58,200
Speaker 1: of the let's get rid of the body so it

1072
01:01:58,280 --> 01:02:01,880
Speaker 1: doesn't become an issue and throw them out. I think

1073
01:02:01,920 --> 01:02:07,840
Speaker 1: that's probably the most likely. The Hers article, um is

1074
01:02:07,920 --> 01:02:11,040
Speaker 1: what really caused problems for this whole story because he

1075
01:02:11,200 --> 01:02:14,960
Speaker 1: made mistakes and it was easy to focus on the mistakes. Yeah,

1076
01:02:15,040 --> 01:02:17,800
Speaker 1: I agree, And and then just take the whole story

1077
01:02:18,040 --> 01:02:21,439
Speaker 1: and push it into conspiracy land. And that's the best

1078
01:02:21,480 --> 01:02:25,560
Speaker 1: way to kill one of these stories. Um, Like the

1079
01:02:25,640 --> 01:02:29,480
Speaker 1: phone call from Gates the Pakistani chief of staff, if

1080
01:02:29,520 --> 01:02:33,240
Speaker 1: it didn't in fact Kirk, because who's no one's going

1081
01:02:33,320 --> 01:02:35,160
Speaker 1: to touch that story now because it got it got

1082
01:02:35,480 --> 01:02:38,560
Speaker 1: trash so much. Yeah, there were aspects of that story,

1083
01:02:38,760 --> 01:02:40,960
Speaker 1: like he made the claim that, um, the Seal Team

1084
01:02:41,040 --> 01:02:44,080
Speaker 1: six operators hacked up bin Laden's body and through pieces

1085
01:02:44,080 --> 01:02:46,040
Speaker 1: of it the helicopter. I mean, I don't believe that

1086
01:02:46,160 --> 01:02:48,520
Speaker 1: happened for a moment. But then there are other aspects

1087
01:02:48,560 --> 01:02:50,120
Speaker 1: of it, like that there was a walk into the

1088
01:02:50,160 --> 01:02:54,200
Speaker 1: embassy in Islamabad that coughed up bin Laden's location. That

1089
01:02:54,320 --> 01:02:58,440
Speaker 1: actually seems like it's fairly plausible. Well, you know what,

1090
01:02:58,680 --> 01:03:02,160
Speaker 1: these guys don't won't move unless they got green eyes

1091
01:03:02,280 --> 01:03:05,800
Speaker 1: on you simply don't get some CIA analysts like in

1092
01:03:05,920 --> 01:03:08,840
Speaker 1: Zero Dark Dirty saying, you know, we followed his courier

1093
01:03:09,000 --> 01:03:11,479
Speaker 1: here and we think he's here, and blah blah blah.

1094
01:03:11,600 --> 01:03:14,439
Speaker 1: Come on, they just the military will not act going

1095
01:03:14,520 --> 01:03:18,640
Speaker 1: into a hostile country in Pakistan is hostile on that

1096
01:03:18,800 --> 01:03:24,480
Speaker 1: kind of intelligence. Someone mcgraven is going to say, no,

1097
01:03:25,640 --> 01:03:30,360
Speaker 1: we'll go in if we know he's there. And and

1098
01:03:30,520 --> 01:03:34,040
Speaker 1: I think the walk in started this whole thing. And

1099
01:03:34,120 --> 01:03:37,040
Speaker 1: I've heard his name and he's relocated here in the

1100
01:03:37,160 --> 01:03:42,560
Speaker 1: United States. Um, and he started the whole thing. And

1101
01:03:42,600 --> 01:03:46,440
Speaker 1: then it was a matter of assembling the proof. Now

1102
01:03:46,480 --> 01:03:49,040
Speaker 1: that's I think what that doctor was arrested for. They

1103
01:03:49,080 --> 01:03:51,200
Speaker 1: were trying to get d n A samples from that

1104
01:03:51,360 --> 01:03:55,360
Speaker 1: house and they were going to send him in on

1105
01:03:55,480 --> 01:04:02,040
Speaker 1: the supposed you know, vaccination campaign, and he gets arrested. Um,

1106
01:04:02,640 --> 01:04:04,880
Speaker 1: and then they sound a different way to prove that

1107
01:04:04,960 --> 01:04:06,400
Speaker 1: that was beIN lud And then of course you had

1108
01:04:06,440 --> 01:04:09,680
Speaker 1: the overhead had been long walking at night and you

1109
01:04:09,760 --> 01:04:13,800
Speaker 1: could you could measure him from the overhead that he

1110
01:04:13,960 --> 01:04:16,800
Speaker 1: was what he was six for something like that, And

1111
01:04:16,960 --> 01:04:19,080
Speaker 1: so you start you start putting it all together, and

1112
01:04:19,120 --> 01:04:21,360
Speaker 1: then you you know, then the second piece was take

1113
01:04:21,400 --> 01:04:24,360
Speaker 1: care of the Pakistani air Force. And then the interesting

1114
01:04:24,440 --> 01:04:26,560
Speaker 1: addendum to all of it, of course, is that Dewey

1115
01:04:26,640 --> 01:04:29,800
Speaker 1: Clarridge had all those you know, private intel networks that

1116
01:04:29,920 --> 01:04:32,480
Speaker 1: he was running along the Pakistani border. And how did

1117
01:04:32,560 --> 01:04:34,960
Speaker 1: that play in or not play in? It starts to

1118
01:04:35,000 --> 01:04:40,280
Speaker 1: get confusing. Yeah, I think that's that's just you know,

1119
01:04:40,840 --> 01:04:44,720
Speaker 1: they don't you're not going to get Jay Sock to

1120
01:04:44,920 --> 01:04:49,040
Speaker 1: move on speculative intelligence. So when Obama said, oh, you know,

1121
01:04:49,080 --> 01:04:51,560
Speaker 1: so if you percent chance he was there, I just

1122
01:04:51,600 --> 01:04:54,200
Speaker 1: don't think he would ever do that. So you think

1123
01:04:54,280 --> 01:04:56,680
Speaker 1: we military would they just say flat out and no,

1124
01:04:57,400 --> 01:05:01,520
Speaker 1: you think Jaysock got eyes on before we some sort Yeah,

1125
01:05:01,600 --> 01:05:07,120
Speaker 1: they had some proof um whatever that was d n

1126
01:05:07,240 --> 01:05:09,520
Speaker 1: A or something before they went in. Because the last

1127
01:05:09,560 --> 01:05:12,080
Speaker 1: thing Jaysock needs to do is raid an empty house

1128
01:05:12,760 --> 01:05:18,439
Speaker 1: that high profile. Yeah, especially if you get a couple

1129
01:05:18,480 --> 01:05:21,240
Speaker 1: of helicopters shot down and operators killed and it turns

1130
01:05:21,240 --> 01:05:25,160
Speaker 1: out to be a dry hole. Yeah, you just you

1131
01:05:25,480 --> 01:05:31,320
Speaker 1: just wreck the reputation of Jaysock and the military and

1132
01:05:31,480 --> 01:05:35,240
Speaker 1: the White House. That's my armchair view of the whole thing.

1133
01:05:36,680 --> 01:05:40,000
Speaker 1: It's one of those things that's like almost it's contemporary history,

1134
01:05:40,040 --> 01:05:42,680
Speaker 1: but it's like already lost to history because it's been

1135
01:05:42,720 --> 01:05:47,680
Speaker 1: so muddled. Yeah. Like I said, I've seen people sense

1136
01:05:47,760 --> 01:05:50,320
Speaker 1: and said, you know what, what you know? I've asked

1137
01:05:50,360 --> 01:05:52,000
Speaker 1: people in the White as well, what is the range

1138
01:05:52,000 --> 01:05:56,240
Speaker 1: of a black Hawk? I don't know, um, And I said, well,

1139
01:05:56,280 --> 01:05:59,760
Speaker 1: couldn't fly all the way from Afghanistan botot, I know

1140
01:05:59,880 --> 01:06:04,560
Speaker 1: that much without without refueling. And then I asked these questions.

1141
01:06:04,640 --> 01:06:07,880
Speaker 1: They have no answers for him, so you know, they

1142
01:06:07,920 --> 01:06:11,520
Speaker 1: tell them I'm absolutely wrong that there's it occurred, as

1143
01:06:11,640 --> 01:06:14,760
Speaker 1: described by the White House afterwards, I don't believe that.

1144
01:06:14,840 --> 01:06:18,280
Speaker 1: I still find that hard to believe. I don't believe it. Yeah,

1145
01:06:19,000 --> 01:06:25,000
Speaker 1: nobody in the military beliefs that it thinks about this. Well,

1146
01:06:25,160 --> 01:06:28,160
Speaker 1: this has been a fascinating conversation. I think we covered

1147
01:06:28,160 --> 01:06:30,760
Speaker 1: a lot of ground. I really appreciate you going almost

1148
01:06:30,840 --> 01:06:34,080
Speaker 1: a full hour with us. Um, I don't know really

1149
01:06:34,200 --> 01:06:36,840
Speaker 1: what to promote from the Great Robert bet because, as

1150
01:06:36,880 --> 01:06:39,320
Speaker 1: I said, the Perfect Kill twenty one Laws of Assassin

1151
01:06:39,440 --> 01:06:42,160
Speaker 1: for for Assassins is the last book that you put out.

1152
01:06:42,200 --> 01:06:44,400
Speaker 1: But anything else that you want to get out there,

1153
01:06:44,440 --> 01:06:46,840
Speaker 1: that you're working on or where people could find you

1154
01:06:47,960 --> 01:06:51,440
Speaker 1: if anywhere. Um, you know, I do stuff for CNN.

1155
01:06:51,600 --> 01:06:55,160
Speaker 1: You don't comment on I like doing it. Just commenting

1156
01:06:55,200 --> 01:06:59,600
Speaker 1: on the obvious that those guys in Sri Lanka somebody

1157
01:06:59,640 --> 01:07:02,400
Speaker 1: taught how to make those bombs. Yes, they didn't just

1158
01:07:02,440 --> 01:07:04,320
Speaker 1: get on the internet and figure that out to make

1159
01:07:04,720 --> 01:07:09,920
Speaker 1: nine of them go off nearly simultaneously. Absolutely that that's

1160
01:07:09,960 --> 01:07:14,200
Speaker 1: a bridge too far. Yeah, And UM, I know it's

1161
01:07:14,400 --> 01:07:16,320
Speaker 1: a long time ago, Bob, But like I said, I

1162
01:07:16,480 --> 01:07:19,480
Speaker 1: read your memoir years ago before I before I joined

1163
01:07:19,520 --> 01:07:22,000
Speaker 1: the military. So it's like, probably when did it come

1164
01:07:22,000 --> 01:07:25,200
Speaker 1: out two thousand, two thousand one came out and it

1165
01:07:25,240 --> 01:07:28,840
Speaker 1: came out after nine two thousand to two two. Okay,

1166
01:07:28,880 --> 01:07:30,280
Speaker 1: so I must have read it when when I was

1167
01:07:30,360 --> 01:07:32,560
Speaker 1: just joining. But what's the name of it so people

1168
01:07:32,600 --> 01:07:35,440
Speaker 1: can go find it. It's Seen No Evil. Seeing that

1169
01:07:35,560 --> 01:07:39,080
Speaker 1: we made into the movie Siriana with George Booney. Good

1170
01:07:39,160 --> 01:07:43,080
Speaker 1: movie too. But umah, yeah, it's a you know, Bob's

1171
01:07:43,120 --> 01:07:46,080
Speaker 1: memoirs definitely worth giving a read. There's some hair raising

1172
01:07:46,120 --> 01:07:53,960
Speaker 1: stories in there. Yeah, well's I think I got at it. Yeah. See,

1173
01:07:54,000 --> 01:07:56,800
Speaker 1: I hates the book, but I guess that's an accomplishment, right,

1174
01:07:57,040 --> 01:08:01,640
Speaker 1: it comes with the territory. Yeah, well, we appreciate it.

1175
01:08:01,760 --> 01:08:04,480
Speaker 1: Thanks for going along with us, all right, thanks, all right,

1176
01:08:04,560 --> 01:08:07,880
Speaker 1: thank you, Bob, thank you. Alright, great interview with Bob

1177
01:08:07,960 --> 01:08:10,760
Speaker 1: Bear there. I mean to me, that's an ast guest

1178
01:08:10,920 --> 01:08:13,960
Speaker 1: and really appreciate having him on. Be sure to check

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01:08:14,000 --> 01:08:16,760
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01:10:18,600 --> 01:10:21,479
Speaker 1: our full archive of shows. As always, keep up with

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Speaker 1: us at soft rep Radio as well. Pick up Murphy's

1219
01:10:25,320 --> 01:10:28,800
Speaker 1: Law if you haven't already. I'm running around doing press

1220
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Speaker 1: for it, yep, so get on it. It's getting stellar

1221
01:10:32,120 --> 01:10:35,200
Speaker 1: reviews thus far as you've heard. Yeah, it's been well

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Speaker 1: received us so far. It's pretty cool to see people

1223
01:10:37,680 --> 01:10:40,160
Speaker 1: connect with us. So yeah, and I think it's because

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Speaker 1: Twitter to follow me at Jack Murphy r gr and

1226
01:10:46,720 --> 01:11:00,280
Speaker 1: plenty of great guests on the horizon. So thanks as always. Guys, Yeah,

1227
01:11:08,120 --> 01:11:12,439
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