1 00:00:07,120 --> 00:00:11,760 Speaker 1: Security. 2 00:00:15,360 --> 00:00:20,760 Speaker 2: What is worth more art or life? Is it worth 3 00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:25,319 Speaker 2: more than food? Worth more than justice? Are you more 4 00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:29,600 Speaker 2: concerned about the protection of a painting or the protection 5 00:00:29,960 --> 00:00:35,239 Speaker 2: of our planet and people? The cost of living crisis is. 6 00:00:35,280 --> 00:00:39,479 Speaker 3: Put On October fourteenth, twenty twenty two, two young people 7 00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:45,159 Speaker 3: approached Vangu's famous Sunflowers painting in the National Gallery in London. 8 00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:50,120 Speaker 3: They unzipped their jackets to reveal just stop oil t shirts, 9 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:54,520 Speaker 3: opened cans of tomato soup and chucked it at the painting. 10 00:00:55,400 --> 00:00:57,080 Speaker 3: You can hear the shock of some of the other 11 00:00:57,200 --> 00:01:04,280 Speaker 3: museum goers in that video. There what security? Oh my gosh. 12 00:01:04,520 --> 00:01:08,959 Speaker 3: But the immediate response was nothing compared to the onslaught 13 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:13,200 Speaker 3: of media coverage and commentary that followed. I can't think 14 00:01:13,240 --> 00:01:17,400 Speaker 3: of another protest in recent history that was so immediately 15 00:01:17,680 --> 00:01:25,320 Speaker 3: the central focus of the discourse. It's worth noting that 16 00:01:25,360 --> 00:01:29,120 Speaker 3: the painting itself was not damaged. It was behind glass, 17 00:01:29,240 --> 00:01:32,520 Speaker 3: and the soup only hit that glass display case. The 18 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:36,080 Speaker 3: National Gallery later reported that the painting's frame had sustained 19 00:01:36,200 --> 00:01:39,800 Speaker 3: minor damage, but that's it. That did not stop many 20 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:44,319 Speaker 3: commentators from referring to the action as destruction or vandalism. 21 00:01:44,520 --> 00:01:46,920 Speaker 3: It's about the destruction. It is not about a better world. 22 00:01:46,959 --> 00:01:48,880 Speaker 3: They're not going to school to learn how to create 23 00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:51,600 Speaker 3: better tech to care the climate crisis, and not figuring 24 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:53,920 Speaker 3: out how to geoengineered. Not doing something productive. They're doing 25 00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:57,280 Speaker 3: something destructive because the barbarians are about the destruction. These 26 00:01:57,360 --> 00:01:58,000 Speaker 3: oils stop. 27 00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:01,640 Speaker 4: The oil protesters in the UK started doing more and 28 00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:04,360 Speaker 4: more acts of wanton fadlis, and we've got a little 29 00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:07,000 Speaker 4: matchup of their antics in the last few days. 30 00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:13,880 Speaker 3: Those were conservative commentators Ben Shapiro and Peres Morgan, but 31 00:02:13,919 --> 00:02:17,400 Speaker 3: it wasn't just the usual suspects weighing in on this protest. 32 00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:21,359 Speaker 3: People in favor of climate action also chewed on it 33 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:24,360 Speaker 3: for weeks, debating whether or not the climate movement should 34 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:30,440 Speaker 3: be engaging in such polarizing protests. Here's leftist commentator Hassan 35 00:02:30,520 --> 00:02:31,639 Speaker 3: Piker weighing in. 36 00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:35,400 Speaker 5: I find a lot of these activists to be you know, 37 00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:39,839 Speaker 5: I mean, they're doing they're right for their anger, their 38 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:44,040 Speaker 5: frustration is correct. I feel like that kind of protest 39 00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:48,320 Speaker 5: oftentimes is just like very it's almost like self defeating, 40 00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:50,240 Speaker 5: it's performative, it's cringe. 41 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:54,480 Speaker 3: Even climate scientist Michael Mann got in on the action 42 00:02:54,680 --> 00:02:58,240 Speaker 3: commissioning a survey and pointing to the results of it 43 00:02:58,280 --> 00:03:02,160 Speaker 3: as proof that the action was alienating, a claim that 44 00:03:02,240 --> 00:03:08,440 Speaker 3: lots of social scientists who study protests found rather alienating themselves. 45 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:13,720 Speaker 3: Soupgate fueled Twitter debates for weeks, and yet just six 46 00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:17,040 Speaker 3: months earlier, right in the middle of Earth Month, another 47 00:03:17,320 --> 00:03:19,919 Speaker 3: big piece of climate news had happened in the UK 48 00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:22,800 Speaker 3: that generated almost no response. 49 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:26,560 Speaker 4: There's been two rounds of trinalization of protest in the UK. 50 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:35,080 Speaker 3: Doctor Oscar Bergland is a researcher at the University of Bristol. 51 00:03:35,280 --> 00:03:38,080 Speaker 3: He focuses on social movements and he's spent the last 52 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:42,280 Speaker 3: few years particularly focused on extinction, rebellion and then it's 53 00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:46,360 Speaker 3: spinoff groups just stop oil and insulate Britain in the UK. 54 00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:50,920 Speaker 3: He's talking there about the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts 55 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:54,520 Speaker 3: Act of twenty twenty two and the Public Order Act 56 00:03:54,680 --> 00:03:58,560 Speaker 3: was just went into effect in May twenty twenty three. Together, 57 00:03:58,680 --> 00:04:02,440 Speaker 3: the two seriously curte protest rights. They give police the 58 00:04:02,520 --> 00:04:06,680 Speaker 3: right to impose time, noise and location restrictions on protests, 59 00:04:07,120 --> 00:04:11,080 Speaker 3: to arrest anyone deemed to be causing a public nuisance, 60 00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:14,800 Speaker 3: and to stop and search anyone they want near a 61 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:18,520 Speaker 3: protest with no need to justify the stop. They can 62 00:04:18,560 --> 00:04:22,400 Speaker 3: also bar people they suspect will make a serious disruption 63 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:28,000 Speaker 3: from being in particular places or around particular people. The 64 00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:31,799 Speaker 3: law even curtails how activists are allowed to defend themselves 65 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:35,360 Speaker 3: in court. Climate activists have not been allowed to explain, 66 00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:38,880 Speaker 3: for example, that it's the urgency of the climate crisis 67 00:04:39,320 --> 00:04:41,680 Speaker 3: that drove them to commit particular acts. 68 00:04:42,920 --> 00:04:46,480 Speaker 4: Judges, in wanting to uphold the law as it is, 69 00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:52,080 Speaker 4: have tried to limit what the jury is allowed to 70 00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:54,880 Speaker 4: hear and let you know, you want allowed to give 71 00:04:55,040 --> 00:04:57,719 Speaker 4: certain kinds of evidence that you want allowed to mention 72 00:04:57,880 --> 00:05:01,520 Speaker 4: climate and so on. That text wasn't allowed to be 73 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:02,359 Speaker 4: heard in court. 74 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:08,200 Speaker 3: It's a restriction that could reverberate well beyond the climate movement. 75 00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:11,240 Speaker 4: It's absolutely the case that you know, if you give, 76 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:15,280 Speaker 4: if you grant certain powers to the states to deal 77 00:05:15,320 --> 00:05:17,480 Speaker 4: with one problem, they will use six to two people 78 00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:19,320 Speaker 4: with other problems, so they seek it. 79 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:22,560 Speaker 3: The passage of those laws got nowhere near the amount 80 00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:27,039 Speaker 3: of attention as the tomato soup incident, particularly outside the UK. 81 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:32,720 Speaker 3: We've covered in previous episodes how the framing of climate 82 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:37,000 Speaker 3: activists as uniquely disruptive or annoying, which is how the 83 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:40,560 Speaker 3: Lion's share of media painted the Tomato soup stunt helps 84 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:44,840 Speaker 3: justify laws that criminalize activism. In a future episode, we're 85 00:05:44,839 --> 00:05:47,200 Speaker 3: going to get into the details of how things shifted 86 00:05:47,320 --> 00:05:50,680 Speaker 3: so quickly in the UK, But for today, we're going 87 00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:53,680 Speaker 3: to look at why tactics like the tomato soup protests 88 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:56,720 Speaker 3: and the many art and sport protests that followed it 89 00:05:56,880 --> 00:05:59,480 Speaker 3: strike a nerve. We're going to talk about what they're 90 00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:03,640 Speaker 3: intended to accomplish, whether they accomplish those goals, and why 91 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:06,920 Speaker 3: activists have been making a point of annoying people and 92 00:06:06,920 --> 00:06:10,880 Speaker 3: getting arrested for the better part of a century. That's 93 00:06:10,880 --> 00:06:13,720 Speaker 3: coming up after the break I name U Westervelt and 94 00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:23,960 Speaker 3: this is drilled the real free speech threat. There's a 95 00:06:23,960 --> 00:06:26,920 Speaker 3: bit in the UK Policing Bill that you could miss 96 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:31,039 Speaker 3: the significance of entirely if you didn't happen to be 97 00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:34,640 Speaker 3: obsessively reading everything you possibly could about the criminalization of 98 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:38,200 Speaker 3: protest over the past few years. It talks about damage 99 00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:42,440 Speaker 3: to memorials and how the sentence for this crime has 100 00:06:42,480 --> 00:06:46,800 Speaker 3: been increased from three months to up to ten years 101 00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:54,640 Speaker 3: in jail. Those cheers you're hearing are from a Black 102 00:06:54,680 --> 00:06:59,480 Speaker 3: Lives Matter protest in Bristol, England in twenty twenty. People 103 00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:02,159 Speaker 3: are celebrating the fact that a statue of the slave 104 00:07:02,240 --> 00:07:06,120 Speaker 3: trader Edward Coulson, had once occupied a prominent position at 105 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:09,920 Speaker 3: Bristol's Port, has been pulled down and thrown into the harbor. 106 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:16,520 Speaker 3: The increased criminalization of protests recently is certainly a reaction 107 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:21,200 Speaker 3: to disruptive climate protests, but it's also a reaction to 108 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:24,400 Speaker 3: the Black Lives Matter protests, which began in the US 109 00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:28,520 Speaker 3: but quickly spread to other countries. Both movements bring something 110 00:07:28,560 --> 00:07:32,000 Speaker 3: that powerful interests have been fighting against for the better 111 00:07:32,040 --> 00:07:40,120 Speaker 3: part of a century, multi racial, cross class solidarity. Nick 112 00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:43,760 Speaker 3: Estes is an assistant professor of American Indian Studies at 113 00:07:43,800 --> 00:07:47,880 Speaker 3: the University of Minnesota, co founder of the Native Advocacy 114 00:07:47,920 --> 00:07:50,880 Speaker 3: Group with the Red Nation, and an enrolled member of 115 00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:54,640 Speaker 3: the Lower Brule Sioux Tribe. He says the recent racketeering 116 00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:59,400 Speaker 3: charges against activists protesting the proposed police trading facility known 117 00:07:59,440 --> 00:08:03,200 Speaker 3: as Copp City in Atlanta is a clear example of 118 00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:06,400 Speaker 3: how much various protest movements are being lumped together. 119 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:10,200 Speaker 6: That's a very kind of clear example that they're seeing, 120 00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:14,720 Speaker 6: you know, the Black Lives Matter movement, Standing Rock, all 121 00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:17,920 Speaker 6: these other sort of social justice movements, climate justice movements 122 00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:21,920 Speaker 6: as connected, and the best way to contain them is 123 00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:24,320 Speaker 6: to basically slap a broad. 124 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:26,160 Speaker 7: Label on all of it. 125 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:31,000 Speaker 6: And it never anticipated that happening as Standing Rock. It 126 00:08:31,040 --> 00:08:37,360 Speaker 6: never anticipated exploding the way that it did. In my 127 00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:44,600 Speaker 6: own personal experience in twenty twenty, during the George Floyd summer, 128 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:48,800 Speaker 6: I saw a water protector, a white kid who I 129 00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:51,920 Speaker 6: sort of knew, get gunned down. He got shot four 130 00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:55,760 Speaker 6: times in the back in broad daylight in front of 131 00:08:56,200 --> 00:09:00,000 Speaker 6: hundreds of people in Albuquerque, New Mexico, during an event 132 00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 6: to take down a really you know, racist monument. And 133 00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:09,520 Speaker 6: I was just thinking that there was this sort of 134 00:09:09,559 --> 00:09:13,880 Speaker 6: demonization not just of Native people and black people, now, 135 00:09:14,040 --> 00:09:18,720 Speaker 6: was a demonization of any white kid who decided to 136 00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:23,400 Speaker 6: stand on the side of history with those very sort 137 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:29,120 Speaker 6: of marginalized groups, and an active campaign not just by 138 00:09:29,320 --> 00:09:32,680 Speaker 6: law enforcement but by the media to sort of break 139 00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:34,280 Speaker 6: that sense of solidarity. 140 00:09:35,640 --> 00:09:39,720 Speaker 3: Rees and class critiques are consistently levied at the climate movement. 141 00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:43,720 Speaker 3: A recurring theme in conservative commentary about various climate protests 142 00:09:44,040 --> 00:09:46,320 Speaker 3: is that these are spoiled, rich kids, out of touch 143 00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:49,360 Speaker 3: elitists with nothing better to do than throw mashed potatoes 144 00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:53,320 Speaker 3: or soup at fancy paintings or block a road where 145 00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:56,720 Speaker 3: normal people are just trying to get to work. Don't 146 00:09:56,720 --> 00:10:01,200 Speaker 3: get me wrong, sometimes those critiques are absolutely valid. Historically, 147 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:05,000 Speaker 3: the climate movement has not been great on race. Here's Rev. 148 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:07,960 Speaker 3: Lennox Yearwood, president of the Hip Hop Caucus and a 149 00:10:08,040 --> 00:10:11,280 Speaker 3: longtime activist, on that history. 150 00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:14,760 Speaker 1: The modern day climate movement meaning around the creation of 151 00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:19,680 Speaker 1: EPA right around between nineteen sixty eight and nineteen seventy two. 152 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:21,880 Speaker 7: Most of the large, the big. 153 00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:25,520 Speaker 1: Green organizations were created within that four year timeframe. Which 154 00:10:25,640 --> 00:10:28,960 Speaker 1: also important is that the people were in the streets. 155 00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:31,320 Speaker 1: So you had the black people with the Black Power 156 00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:33,400 Speaker 1: movement was in the streets and that was. 157 00:10:33,440 --> 00:10:34,800 Speaker 7: The part of the process. 158 00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:37,840 Speaker 1: You had the women's movement that was emerging, the gay 159 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:41,360 Speaker 1: rights movement that was powerful in New York City. You 160 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:45,120 Speaker 1: had the anti Vietnam movements. Even young white kids who 161 00:10:45,160 --> 00:10:48,600 Speaker 1: were putting out street heat, they weren't engaging. The climate 162 00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:51,760 Speaker 1: movement literally said at the very beginning, we are not 163 00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:54,079 Speaker 1: going to be a part of that kind of movement. 164 00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:57,840 Speaker 1: So even if it's the anti war movement, or the 165 00:10:57,880 --> 00:11:01,360 Speaker 1: gay rights movement, or the strong Femi this and womanist movement, 166 00:11:01,760 --> 00:11:05,640 Speaker 1: or the black power movement. They immediately pulled back from 167 00:11:05,640 --> 00:11:09,480 Speaker 1: the inception and they coasted along. So then you go 168 00:11:09,640 --> 00:11:12,319 Speaker 1: ten years and then when black folks are saying, don't 169 00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:16,320 Speaker 1: put landfills in our community, that was their moment, and 170 00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:18,520 Speaker 1: even then they pulled back. 171 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:21,440 Speaker 7: So this is not just the Achilles heel. 172 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:26,040 Speaker 1: This is who the movement is from its inception. And 173 00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:28,840 Speaker 1: then at some point in time they realized that and 174 00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:31,839 Speaker 1: some have some happen is that we can't do this 175 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:35,679 Speaker 1: a loon. We're not big enough or strong enough to 176 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:40,160 Speaker 1: beat the possip industry as a Birkenstock movement that's. 177 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:42,440 Speaker 7: On the east coast, on the west coast. 178 00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:45,240 Speaker 1: So now they're a point where they're literally try and 179 00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:49,720 Speaker 1: do a crash. Course on racism. 180 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:52,720 Speaker 3: Class has also been a blind spot for the climate 181 00:11:52,760 --> 00:11:56,480 Speaker 3: movement at various points. Here's Oscar Bergland on how that's 182 00:11:56,520 --> 00:11:57,800 Speaker 3: played out in the UK. 183 00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:02,079 Speaker 4: Working class people will not be protected as the climate 184 00:12:02,760 --> 00:12:06,160 Speaker 4: crisis worsens, And what you have here is actually a 185 00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:09,880 Speaker 4: lot of working class people getting really angry about these 186 00:12:09,920 --> 00:12:13,719 Speaker 4: climate protesters. So that you get actual clashes between them. 187 00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:16,160 Speaker 4: I don't think that that's good for the climate movement. 188 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:21,240 Speaker 4: That has a potentially long term damaging effect. I think 189 00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:26,160 Speaker 4: if your enemy is the fossil fuel industry, if you're 190 00:12:26,200 --> 00:12:30,680 Speaker 4: being dragged away by shareholders in Michelle shareholders meeting or whatever, 191 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:33,400 Speaker 4: I think that's a good fight to take. But if 192 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:36,680 Speaker 4: you're being dragged away by people trying to get to work, 193 00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:39,080 Speaker 4: I don't think that's a good look. 194 00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:44,520 Speaker 3: But researchers and activists agree that these historic weaknesses are 195 00:12:44,559 --> 00:12:48,600 Speaker 3: starting to be addressed, and as that happens, the movement 196 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:50,160 Speaker 3: is becoming a threat. 197 00:12:51,520 --> 00:12:54,000 Speaker 6: This is the kind of the attitude, you know, that 198 00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:57,360 Speaker 6: we're seeing in general with this attack on you know, 199 00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:02,679 Speaker 6: it's become a culture war sort of tagline for anything 200 00:13:02,679 --> 00:13:05,960 Speaker 6: that is considered liberal or left or something that can 201 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:11,000 Speaker 6: be dismissed. And I think it's fascinating because in my mind, 202 00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:15,520 Speaker 6: it's actually just trying to create lines of division between people. 203 00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:18,000 Speaker 6: And I think this is, you know, just sort of 204 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:21,680 Speaker 6: the longer trend of the aftermath of Standing Rock. 205 00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:26,959 Speaker 3: In many ways, some people who would rather not see 206 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:32,280 Speaker 3: a cross racial, cross class coalition fighting for justice have 207 00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:36,800 Speaker 3: been singling out white allies for critique or punishment, just 208 00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:40,640 Speaker 3: like Nick Estes saw at Standing Rock. It's an extension 209 00:13:40,880 --> 00:13:46,160 Speaker 3: of the outside agitator's accusation that gets thrown at protesters regularly. 210 00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:51,160 Speaker 3: Scientist and activist Rose Abramoff says she got a lot 211 00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:54,080 Speaker 3: of this when she was protesting the Mountain Valley pipeline 212 00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:56,360 Speaker 3: in West Virginia. 213 00:13:56,640 --> 00:13:58,439 Speaker 8: There was a lot of sort of you're nut around here, 214 00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:00,920 Speaker 8: are you, which is interesting because you know, I mean, 215 00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:03,520 Speaker 8: I would argue that the Mountain Valley pipeline is not 216 00:14:03,600 --> 00:14:06,199 Speaker 8: from around here, and that the main resistance against the 217 00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:09,720 Speaker 8: Mountain Valley pipeline is primarily local as locals who don't 218 00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:13,360 Speaker 8: want this pipeline going through their land. So that was 219 00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:15,120 Speaker 8: an interesting line of argumentation. 220 00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:19,080 Speaker 3: When people across the country went to Standing Rock to 221 00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:22,760 Speaker 3: stand with the Lakota and Dakota people defending their land 222 00:14:22,840 --> 00:14:27,480 Speaker 3: and water rights, fossil fuel industry spokespeople and police highlighted 223 00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:30,440 Speaker 3: the number of people from out of state in an 224 00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:34,840 Speaker 3: attempt to delegitimize the protest. Not only was that narrative false, 225 00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:36,200 Speaker 3: it was ignorant. 226 00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:41,160 Speaker 6: The thing about indigenous movements in contrast to modern sort 227 00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:44,600 Speaker 6: of political movements or political parties, is that they're not 228 00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:48,040 Speaker 6: sort of movements of strangers, other movements of relations. A 229 00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:51,480 Speaker 6: lot of people are familiar with each other, or they're 230 00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:55,560 Speaker 6: organizing according to their clan system or the societies that 231 00:14:55,600 --> 00:15:01,520 Speaker 6: are created within traditional governance systems. There's societies, female societies, 232 00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:04,960 Speaker 6: warriors societies, all kinds of different societies that exist. 233 00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:08,640 Speaker 3: In the case of Standing Rock, the Sioux or Ochetti 234 00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:15,440 Speaker 3: shakoyn Oyat people are located in what is today Montana, Minnesota, Nebraska, 235 00:15:15,680 --> 00:15:20,680 Speaker 3: North Dakota, South Dakota, and Manitoba and Saskatchewan and Canada. 236 00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:25,480 Speaker 6: So after the defeat of Keison Excel the Northern Leg, 237 00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:27,680 Speaker 6: there was a lot of people in Standing Rock. 238 00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:28,400 Speaker 7: Was paying attention. 239 00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:31,120 Speaker 6: But it wasn't until I first went up to the 240 00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:34,800 Speaker 6: camps there and a lot of the people back home 241 00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:40,480 Speaker 6: that we had worked with on the Lobural Reservation were 242 00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:43,480 Speaker 6: already there. Members of the Ocheti Shalcoy would have their 243 00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:45,680 Speaker 6: own little camp system set up. It was actually just 244 00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:50,960 Speaker 6: uniting people on the ground, our nation, the Ochetti Shacoi, 245 00:15:51,040 --> 00:15:54,240 Speaker 6: the nation of the Seven Council Fires. It was all 246 00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:58,119 Speaker 6: proof that these things had never gone away. 247 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:03,520 Speaker 3: If they're hard to get right, and guaranteed, sometimes even 248 00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:07,320 Speaker 3: engineered to piss off the public and ratchet up policing. 249 00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:10,960 Speaker 3: Why engage in more disruptive tactics. 250 00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:20,040 Speaker 9: I did TMC live, they covered the US Open, and 251 00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:23,080 Speaker 9: it was so funny because they both started out being like, Dana, 252 00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:25,440 Speaker 9: can you believe this keeping people from watching tennis? 253 00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:28,280 Speaker 3: This is social scientist Dana Fisher. 254 00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:34,360 Speaker 7: Presor Fisher. Welcome to TMZ lot. 255 00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:35,360 Speaker 9: Thank you for having me. 256 00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:39,840 Speaker 10: So give us your take on what this did for 257 00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:43,520 Speaker 10: the climate other than movement, other than extending the match. 258 00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:47,720 Speaker 9: Yes, the movement is much broader than what we call 259 00:16:47,760 --> 00:16:50,120 Speaker 9: the radical flank, which is people who are engaging in 260 00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:54,680 Speaker 9: civil disobedience like gluing themselves at events and throwing food. 261 00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:58,120 Speaker 9: But the importance of this kind of tactic is that 262 00:16:58,160 --> 00:16:59,880 Speaker 9: it's getting us all talking about the climate. 263 00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:02,400 Speaker 7: Well that makes it sound like you're saying it succeeded. 264 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:05,560 Speaker 9: Then oh absolutely, I'm on coz line. For the first 265 00:17:05,600 --> 00:17:08,560 Speaker 9: day I were like, oh, I don't support that doing this, 266 00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:11,520 Speaker 9: but I do support doing something on climate. So it 267 00:17:11,600 --> 00:17:12,960 Speaker 9: was just funny because I was like, look, you guys 268 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:15,600 Speaker 9: are textbook. This is perfect, a perfect example of why 269 00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:19,040 Speaker 9: the radical flank happens. Because you're talking about it, and 270 00:17:19,119 --> 00:17:22,240 Speaker 9: it's actually encouraging sympathizers like you who care about the 271 00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:24,560 Speaker 9: issue to do something about the issue, but not that 272 00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:27,120 Speaker 9: nobody's asking you to glude yourself to anything. 273 00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:31,440 Speaker 3: Fisher heads up the Center for Environment, Community and Equity 274 00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:35,600 Speaker 3: at American University and has spent her entire career researching 275 00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:39,760 Speaker 3: social movements. She says the incident, both the protest itself 276 00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:43,040 Speaker 3: and the reaction after it, not only from the TMZ guys, 277 00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:45,600 Speaker 3: but also from one of the tennis players, Coco Goff, 278 00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:48,560 Speaker 3: who had a similar reaction, is an example of what 279 00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:52,879 Speaker 3: people call the Overton window effect. The idea is that basically, 280 00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:56,960 Speaker 3: if you see someone engaging in a radical, disruptive act 281 00:17:57,160 --> 00:18:03,320 Speaker 3: of civil disobedience, or even suggested a radical idea or policy, 282 00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:06,480 Speaker 3: it's likely that your initial reaction might be shock or 283 00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:09,880 Speaker 3: even dismay. But a lot of people, especially if they're 284 00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:14,399 Speaker 3: already somewhat sympathetic to the cause, we'll think, you know, 285 00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:17,919 Speaker 3: we really do need to do something about that. In 286 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:20,840 Speaker 3: the context of climate protests, maybe gluing yourself to a 287 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:23,320 Speaker 3: road or throwing soup but a painting is a bit much. 288 00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:26,520 Speaker 3: But people might think those activists are right, and we 289 00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:30,919 Speaker 3: do need to do something. That's the entire purpose of 290 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:35,280 Speaker 3: what movement scholars like Fisher called the radical flank, the 291 00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:39,440 Speaker 3: segment of a movement that's willing to risk arrest or 292 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:44,280 Speaker 3: cultural backlash or even violence to grab attention and rile 293 00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:48,200 Speaker 3: people up. The Suffragettes did it, the civil rights movement 294 00:18:48,280 --> 00:18:51,000 Speaker 3: did it, and the anti war movement did it too, 295 00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:57,159 Speaker 3: and it worked in all three cases. The Overton window 296 00:18:57,320 --> 00:19:01,200 Speaker 3: is referenced a lot by progressives these days, but it's 297 00:19:01,359 --> 00:19:04,560 Speaker 3: actually a term that was conceived of to understand how 298 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:09,120 Speaker 3: to shift the public towards more conservative views. In many countries, 299 00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:11,919 Speaker 3: you could argue that far right ideas have shifted the 300 00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:15,840 Speaker 3: entire political spectrum to the right much more than civil 301 00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:20,080 Speaker 3: disobedience has shifted things to the left. Particularly in recent 302 00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:25,399 Speaker 3: years in Australia, it's mostly been left leaning labor governments 303 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:31,080 Speaker 3: that have passed state laws criminalizing protest, which might be unexpected. 304 00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:35,359 Speaker 3: Researcher Liz Hicks says, that's the Overton window at work. 305 00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:40,320 Speaker 11: It's meant to change that framework of what is seeing 306 00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:42,879 Speaker 11: as kind of normal and the middle ground and the 307 00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:46,439 Speaker 11: mainstream by dragging one inge it really far out to 308 00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:49,119 Speaker 11: the other side. But you actually see that a little 309 00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:52,600 Speaker 11: bit with the way these laws have been passed by 310 00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:56,480 Speaker 11: state labor governments. But the conservative position is so extreme 311 00:19:56,520 --> 00:20:00,480 Speaker 11: and ridiculous and also what the mining companies want. But 312 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:03,240 Speaker 11: suddenly it doesn't look like it's a repression on spaege 313 00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:07,119 Speaker 11: because that is the moderate position between the representatives that 314 00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:09,720 Speaker 11: you have in Parliament and these industry stakeholders. 315 00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:14,000 Speaker 3: It makes sense. The concept of the Overton window was 316 00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:17,840 Speaker 3: introduced by a guy named Joseph P. Overton, who was 317 00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:21,320 Speaker 3: a senior vice president for the Macinaw Center for Public 318 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:25,840 Speaker 3: Policy in the nineties when he developed this idea, and 319 00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:30,640 Speaker 3: the Macinaw Center is, yep, you guessed it, a longtime 320 00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:36,639 Speaker 3: member of the Atlas network of conservative think tanks. The 321 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:40,240 Speaker 3: link between the climate movement and previous social justice movements 322 00:20:40,359 --> 00:20:45,080 Speaker 3: is becoming stronger as more people directly experience what Fisher 323 00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:49,000 Speaker 3: calls climate shocks. At the March to End Fossil Fuels 324 00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:52,320 Speaker 3: held in New York during Climate Week in September twenty 325 00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:56,040 Speaker 3: twenty three, Fisher surveyed participants to find out what had 326 00:20:56,119 --> 00:20:58,879 Speaker 3: brought them to the protest. She asked whether they had 327 00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:02,560 Speaker 3: engaged in other big climate protests previously, how they felt 328 00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:07,160 Speaker 3: about the activists participating indirect action and about their direct 329 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:11,720 Speaker 3: experience with climate impacts. She said she was shocked to 330 00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:15,480 Speaker 3: find that a majority had experienced either increased exposure to 331 00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:19,600 Speaker 3: storms and floods, extreme heat, or wildfire smoke. 332 00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:23,480 Speaker 9: We ask people if they had experienced the following items 333 00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:24,679 Speaker 9: in the past six months. 334 00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:28,040 Speaker 4: Extreme heat, eighty. 335 00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:32,400 Speaker 9: Seven percent said they had. We asked them that they 336 00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:36,480 Speaker 9: experienced wildfire or smoke from wildfires, eighty five percent said 337 00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:40,919 Speaker 9: they had, and sixty percent said they had experienced more 338 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:44,719 Speaker 9: frequent and powerful storms, including hurricanes, typephoons, tornadoes. 339 00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:52,920 Speaker 3: Activists who participate in direct actions aren't necessarily thinking about 340 00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:57,480 Speaker 3: the Overton Window or the radical flank, or civil rights history, 341 00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:01,120 Speaker 3: or with the media or other climate activists will think 342 00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:04,240 Speaker 3: of them. Oftentimes, they just want to feel like they're 343 00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:07,640 Speaker 3: doing something tangible and directly impactful. 344 00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:10,760 Speaker 8: We're trying to stop this pipeline, and this is one 345 00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:12,640 Speaker 8: of the most effective ways to do it, is to 346 00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:16,080 Speaker 8: just get in front of and literally stop work on 347 00:22:16,119 --> 00:22:16,920 Speaker 8: the pipeline. 348 00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:21,639 Speaker 3: That's scientist Rose Abramoff again. She was recently arrested for 349 00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:25,959 Speaker 3: locking herself to a drill at the Mountain Valley pipeline. 350 00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:29,680 Speaker 12: We stopped construction for about half of half a day. 351 00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:35,240 Speaker 3: The vast majority of activists don't start out doing direct action. Instead, 352 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:38,399 Speaker 3: they show up to organize protests, maybe campaign for a 353 00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:43,160 Speaker 3: politician they like, or call elected officials. In an earlier episode, 354 00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:46,520 Speaker 3: we heard from Joanna Oltman Smith, who was arrested earlier 355 00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:50,000 Speaker 3: this year for smearing fingerpaint on the display case protecting 356 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:53,600 Speaker 3: a DEGA statue in DC. She walked us through the 357 00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:57,679 Speaker 3: years of activism that she participated in before risking a 358 00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:00,480 Speaker 3: serious charge. 359 00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:04,480 Speaker 12: I've done a lot of on the ground organizing, and 360 00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:09,720 Speaker 12: part of that has been rallying and protesting. I've done 361 00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:14,160 Speaker 12: a fair amount of die ins and picket lines and 362 00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:20,359 Speaker 12: blockading of buildings to raise awareness on different issues. What 363 00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:25,520 Speaker 12: I just did with declare emergency in Washington, that was 364 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:31,720 Speaker 12: my first time stepping up as an individual, putting myself 365 00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:36,560 Speaker 12: on the line with my partner Tim to really do 366 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:40,240 Speaker 12: something that we knew would raise the alarm. 367 00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:46,119 Speaker 3: Tim is Tim Martin, a fellow climate activist from North Carolina. 368 00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:50,199 Speaker 3: In May, the two were charged with conspiring against the 369 00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:53,920 Speaker 3: United States government. That's a charge that carries a possible 370 00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:56,960 Speaker 3: sentence of five years in prison and a fine of 371 00:23:56,960 --> 00:24:00,200 Speaker 3: two hundred fifty thousand dollars for each of them. Those 372 00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:07,160 Speaker 3: cases are still pending. If the idea that all attention 373 00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:12,280 Speaker 3: on climate protests isn't necessarily good attention holds any water, 374 00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:15,399 Speaker 3: it may be more in the sense that opponents of 375 00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:19,400 Speaker 3: the movement can and do try to leverage certain moments 376 00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:24,560 Speaker 3: to discredit activists, and that the more disruptive each protest gets, 377 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:29,760 Speaker 3: the more aggressive police and security are getting in response. Again, 378 00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:33,400 Speaker 3: those who study social movements are not terribly surprised by 379 00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:39,560 Speaker 3: the lockstep escalation of both protest tactics and backlash. 380 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:43,760 Speaker 9: I think it's worth remembering that, like the radicalization of 381 00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:47,240 Speaker 9: a civil rights movement, for example, happened over a very 382 00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:51,840 Speaker 9: prolonged period of time, and it happened as activists, we 383 00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:56,160 Speaker 9: start out with young people mostly you've led groups basically 384 00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:59,960 Speaker 9: decided to start being more confrontational, and they were confrontational 385 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:03,679 Speaker 9: but nonviolent cit ins, you know, boycott, And what we 386 00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:07,720 Speaker 9: saw happen was there was this increasing frustration in violence 387 00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:13,479 Speaker 9: from law enforcement and others whom you know, in you know, 388 00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:15,840 Speaker 9: we generally think of as counter movements, but it was 389 00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:18,920 Speaker 9: really you know, white supremacists in that case. But we're 390 00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:22,520 Speaker 9: seeing a similar process happen where the you know, non 391 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:26,000 Speaker 9: violent civil disobedience is becoming more common and there are 392 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:29,480 Speaker 9: more people engaging in it, and we're seeing citizens and 393 00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:34,399 Speaker 9: law enforcement getting increasingly confrontational response, which basically is a 394 00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:37,720 Speaker 9: way that this kind of protest escalates from non violent 395 00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:41,120 Speaker 9: to violent, because most of the time the violence starts 396 00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:44,640 Speaker 9: with the response, you know. And I mean we've justin 397 00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:46,840 Speaker 9: you've been watching any of the videos of climate defiance 398 00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:51,400 Speaker 9: where law enforcement or secure we'll call them security folks 399 00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:54,560 Speaker 9: of all sorts are becoming more and more aggressive in 400 00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:57,760 Speaker 9: response to the non violent civil disobedience we see from 401 00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:01,280 Speaker 9: Climate defiance or from you know, the folks in Germany 402 00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:03,800 Speaker 9: who are getting punched and pulled and yelled at, and 403 00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:07,520 Speaker 9: we see videos of that in the UK too. That's 404 00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:13,040 Speaker 9: this is all classic escalation of in response to civil 405 00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:16,159 Speaker 9: disobedience and in response to a social movement that is frustrated, 406 00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:19,879 Speaker 9: and I actually think this is like a necessary next step. 407 00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:23,720 Speaker 3: Fisher has a new book coming out on the climate movement. 408 00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:28,119 Speaker 3: She looks at its place in history, the tactics it's used, 409 00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:32,040 Speaker 3: and how those relate to previous movements and what's probably 410 00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:35,000 Speaker 3: going to be necessary for the movement to succeed. 411 00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:38,960 Speaker 9: As more people are disruptive, even engaging in non violent 412 00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:42,280 Speaker 9: civil disobedience, law enforcement and counter protesters are going to 413 00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:45,840 Speaker 9: emerge who are going to be violent against those protesters. 414 00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:49,480 Speaker 9: It happened very clearly during the Civil rights movement, and 415 00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:52,320 Speaker 9: that was one of the reasons that a number of 416 00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:55,080 Speaker 9: people who wrote about the movements say that the government 417 00:26:55,160 --> 00:27:00,040 Speaker 9: started to respond because sympathizers who were paying attention and 418 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:03,560 Speaker 9: may have not supported the civil disobedience, but they absolutely 419 00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:08,000 Speaker 9: were repulsed by the violence against these young black Americans 420 00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:10,200 Speaker 9: who are getting beaten up for sitting at a countertop 421 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:13,440 Speaker 9: and refusing to move, for example. That kind of violence 422 00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:14,440 Speaker 9: initiates what we. 423 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:15,440 Speaker 7: Call moral shocks. 424 00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:19,320 Speaker 9: Moral shocks are wonderful motivators to get people to do stuff. 425 00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:23,400 Speaker 9: Absent of organizational ties and embeddedness and movements. People who 426 00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:25,840 Speaker 9: care about the climate crisis, all of a sudden, seeing 427 00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:28,960 Speaker 9: these young people being harmed is going to motivate them 428 00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:31,480 Speaker 9: to do something because they are going to feel that 429 00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:34,520 Speaker 9: it is unacceptable, and that is the kind of pressure 430 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:36,280 Speaker 9: that will be needed to actually get the kind of 431 00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:37,560 Speaker 9: changes that are necessary. 432 00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:44,480 Speaker 3: That's a bitter pill to swallow. This idea that backlash 433 00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:48,560 Speaker 3: to the point of violence is what may ultimately catalyze 434 00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:52,639 Speaker 3: a response, or that anyone might be asked to sign 435 00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:55,479 Speaker 3: up for getting punched in the face to get people 436 00:27:55,520 --> 00:28:02,360 Speaker 3: to care. Meanwhile, the concern voice by climate conscious observers 437 00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:06,159 Speaker 3: over the tomato soup protest, this idea that the action 438 00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:10,280 Speaker 3: could turn off people who would otherwise support climate action 439 00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:15,440 Speaker 3: doesn't seem to be holding up. A year later, Fisher 440 00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:18,920 Speaker 3: and her team surveyed March to End Fossil Fuel protesters 441 00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:22,479 Speaker 3: at random. One hundred and seventy people agreed to answer 442 00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:26,360 Speaker 3: the survey, and Fisher says she found the results really surprising. 443 00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:31,960 Speaker 3: Ninety five percent of the people surveyed supported civil disobedience, 444 00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:35,120 Speaker 3: which she defined as intentionally breaking the law as part 445 00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:39,360 Speaker 3: of a protest. Sixty seven percent said they strongly support it, 446 00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:42,560 Speaker 3: and only five percent said they neither supported it nor 447 00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:43,560 Speaker 3: didn't support it. 448 00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:46,760 Speaker 9: So nobody said they do not support these groups. So 449 00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:50,720 Speaker 9: it was it was absolutely overwhelmingly supporting groups that do 450 00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:53,880 Speaker 9: civil disobedience, even though you know, half of the people 451 00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:56,440 Speaker 9: had never done civil disobedience, and they didn't say they 452 00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:58,160 Speaker 9: were intending to write. 453 00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:02,760 Speaker 3: That's particularly interesting that only one percent of the participants 454 00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:05,800 Speaker 3: who agreed to be surveyed had ever turned out for 455 00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:08,520 Speaker 3: a large scale climate protest before. 456 00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:14,840 Speaker 9: In terms of anybody arguing that people organizations doing civil 457 00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:18,800 Speaker 9: disobedience turn off people who are engaged in the movement 458 00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:23,040 Speaker 9: from participating in the movement, this is absolutely showing that 459 00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:25,760 Speaker 9: it is not true. 460 00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:29,920 Speaker 3: That's it for this week. Thanks for listening. We're going 461 00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:32,480 Speaker 3: to take a quick two week break and be back 462 00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:36,080 Speaker 3: with part two of this season in November. Make sure 463 00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:41,600 Speaker 3: you're subscribed so you won't miss it. Drilled is an 464 00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:46,040 Speaker 3: original Critical Frequency production. Our senior editor for this series 465 00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:50,240 Speaker 3: is Allen Brown. Senior producer is Martin zaltz Ostwick, who 466 00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:54,320 Speaker 3: is also our composer and sound designer. Mixing and mastering 467 00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:56,120 Speaker 3: by Peter Duff, fact. 468 00:29:55,920 --> 00:30:01,320 Speaker 13: Checking by Woudn jan le Go, Review by James. Our 469 00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:04,600 Speaker 13: artwork is by Matt Fleming. Our theme song is but 470 00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:06,240 Speaker 13: in the Hand by four Known. 471 00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:10,280 Speaker 3: The show was created by me Amy Westerbelt. I also 472 00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:14,280 Speaker 3: reported and wrote this episode. You can find a corresponding 473 00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:18,280 Speaker 3: print story on our website at Drilled dot Media. You 474 00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:21,239 Speaker 3: can also find documents there related to this season and 475 00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:24,080 Speaker 3: sign up for our weekly newsletter to get a curated 476 00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:26,040 Speaker 3: list of the week's top climate reads. 477 00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:28,440 Speaker 13: If you'd like to support the show, you can give 478 00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:31,640 Speaker 13: us a rating or review wherever you listen to podcasts, 479 00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:34,560 Speaker 13: share links to our stories, or upgrade to a paid 480 00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:38,080 Speaker 13: newsletter or podcast subscription for access to add free early 481 00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:41,680 Speaker 13: release episodes and bonus content. Thanks for listening, and we'll 482 00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:42,480 Speaker 13: see you next time. 483 00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:07,840 Speaker 10: It's tax season and at LifeLock, we know you're tired 484 00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:10,200 Speaker 10: of numbers, but here's a big one you need to hear. 485 00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:11,240 Speaker 7: Billions. 486 00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:14,360 Speaker 10: That's the amount of money and refunds the IRS has 487 00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:18,120 Speaker 10: flagged for possible identity fraud. Now here's another big number. 488 00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:21,920 Speaker 10: One hundred million. That's how many data points LifeLock monitors 489 00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:25,600 Speaker 10: every second. If your identity is stolen, we'll fix it guaranteed. 490 00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:28,800 Speaker 10: One last big number, save up to forty percent your 491 00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:32,440 Speaker 10: first year. Visit LifeLock dot com slash podcast for the 492 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:34,640 Speaker 10: threats you can't control, term supply