1 00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:14,320 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly 2 00:00:14,360 --> 00:00:19,160 Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small 3 00:00:19,160 --> 00:00:22,320 Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions 4 00:00:22,360 --> 00:00:26,480 Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr Joy hard and Bradford, 5 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:31,880 Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or 6 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:35,400 Speaker 1: to find a therapist in your area, visit our website 7 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:39,120 Speaker 1: at Therapy for Black Girls dot com. While I hope 8 00:00:39,159 --> 00:00:43,040 Speaker 1: you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it 9 00:00:43,159 --> 00:00:46,080 Speaker 1: is not meant to be a substitute for a relationship 10 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:57,000 Speaker 1: with a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so 11 00:00:57,080 --> 00:00:59,200 Speaker 1: much for joining me for session two fifty of the 12 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:02,240 Speaker 1: Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into the 13 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:13,960 Speaker 1: episode after a word from our sponsors. If you've been 14 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:17,240 Speaker 1: contemplating working with the therapist, you may have found yourself 15 00:01:17,280 --> 00:01:19,800 Speaker 1: wondering if working with another black woman is the best 16 00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:22,800 Speaker 1: choice for you. There are many, many reasons why this 17 00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:25,440 Speaker 1: is a great choice, but there is also a level 18 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:28,880 Speaker 1: of vulnerability and working with another sister that catches many 19 00:01:28,920 --> 00:01:32,560 Speaker 1: by surprise. In this week's episode, I'm joined again by 20 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:36,520 Speaker 1: my friends and colleagues, Dr Joy Beckwith and Dr Ayanna Abrams, 21 00:01:36,800 --> 00:01:40,160 Speaker 1: both psychologists in Atlanta to dig a little deeper into 22 00:01:40,240 --> 00:01:42,960 Speaker 1: the dynamic that can occur when black women work with 23 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:46,319 Speaker 1: black women therapists. We discussed some of the joys and 24 00:01:46,400 --> 00:01:49,840 Speaker 1: challenges of working with black women therapists. We share some 25 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:52,480 Speaker 1: of our own experiences of working with our own black 26 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:56,080 Speaker 1: women therapists, and discussed how you can advocate for yourself 27 00:01:56,160 --> 00:01:58,440 Speaker 1: to ensure you're getting what you need out of therapy. 28 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:03,080 Speaker 1: If something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please 29 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:06,400 Speaker 1: share with us on social media using the hashtag TBG 30 00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:10,040 Speaker 1: in session, or join us over and the Sister Circle 31 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:12,640 Speaker 1: to talk more in depth about the episode. You can 32 00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:16,440 Speaker 1: join us at community dot therapy for Black Girls dot Com. 33 00:02:16,480 --> 00:02:22,000 Speaker 1: Here's our conversation. So I am so thankful for both 34 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:24,600 Speaker 1: of you joining me for another what I am sure 35 00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:27,480 Speaker 1: will be exciting conversation. Thank you so much for joining 36 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:32,400 Speaker 1: me again, thanks for having us, and so I wanted 37 00:02:32,440 --> 00:02:34,799 Speaker 1: to have you all here today to chat about like 38 00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:38,680 Speaker 1: some of the dynamics that actually happen in therapy, because 39 00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:41,040 Speaker 1: I think we talk a lot about the importance of 40 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:44,200 Speaker 1: fit between a client and a therapist, but I don't 41 00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:46,440 Speaker 1: know that we always talk about like what that means 42 00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:49,360 Speaker 1: and how that actually plays out in the room. So 43 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:51,840 Speaker 1: I'd love to hear from you both if you could 44 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:54,880 Speaker 1: just start by talking about why does the fit with 45 00:02:54,919 --> 00:02:59,840 Speaker 1: your therapists matter so much. I think there's something so 46 00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:06,520 Speaker 1: special and remarkable about being seen and being understood outside 47 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:10,320 Speaker 1: of your group chat where the things that you don't 48 00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:13,760 Speaker 1: say are even heard. And so I think that's part 49 00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:16,920 Speaker 1: of what you know, why fit really really matters even 50 00:03:16,919 --> 00:03:21,120 Speaker 1: if we don't have a necessarily shared experience. I think, 51 00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:23,560 Speaker 1: you know, as being a black woman with a black therapist, 52 00:03:23,919 --> 00:03:28,000 Speaker 1: there's something about not needing to come into the therapy 53 00:03:28,080 --> 00:03:33,560 Speaker 1: session and justify or defend my perspective on my experience. 54 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:36,800 Speaker 1: I think that's what the fit does for me. It's 55 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:38,680 Speaker 1: like I feel like from the moment that I'm in 56 00:03:38,720 --> 00:03:41,480 Speaker 1: that room again, doesn't have to be a shared experience 57 00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:45,040 Speaker 1: or a lived experience. There's something about feeling that I 58 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:48,680 Speaker 1: belong and that this person understands me and understands my 59 00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:53,680 Speaker 1: perspective without having to justify it or defend it. Yeah, 60 00:03:53,960 --> 00:03:56,440 Speaker 1: I agree that the fit piece comes in with that 61 00:03:56,720 --> 00:03:59,160 Speaker 1: explanation piece and how much of myself do I need 62 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:01,920 Speaker 1: to explaining in here? And like how explicit. Obviously, your 63 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:03,840 Speaker 1: therapist has to get to know you, right in my 64 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:07,520 Speaker 1: particular unique experiences with things. But what was really important 65 00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:10,400 Speaker 1: for me, even seeking my own personal therapies, that somebody 66 00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:12,440 Speaker 1: understood where I was at that time, and I was 67 00:04:12,480 --> 00:04:15,280 Speaker 1: on post doc and I was about to sit for licensure. 68 00:04:15,320 --> 00:04:18,599 Speaker 1: So somebody who could understand that process that I was 69 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:21,360 Speaker 1: like embarking on without me having to kind of explain 70 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:23,600 Speaker 1: the way which I do to everyone else in my 71 00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:25,840 Speaker 1: life was really important for me. So now there is 72 00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:28,360 Speaker 1: more room for me to talk about my unique experience 73 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:33,000 Speaker 1: of this experience that she could already understand right or gravitator, 74 00:04:33,120 --> 00:04:35,080 Speaker 1: And I think that's what's really helpful, whether it be 75 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:38,440 Speaker 1: about the kind of exact thing, or about cultural experiences 76 00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:41,080 Speaker 1: about norms, or about where you might have grown up, 77 00:04:41,120 --> 00:04:43,240 Speaker 1: like things like that can be really helpful so that 78 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:46,280 Speaker 1: you can actually more so focus on your unique experience 79 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:49,080 Speaker 1: of that larger thing and not saying that they didn't 80 00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:51,120 Speaker 1: have to have this exact shared experience, but they can 81 00:04:51,160 --> 00:04:53,640 Speaker 1: kind of grab some things and also hope you contextualize 82 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:56,799 Speaker 1: things without me having to do such such deep explanation 83 00:04:56,839 --> 00:04:58,280 Speaker 1: that I think black woomen have to do in so 84 00:04:58,320 --> 00:05:01,240 Speaker 1: many other areas of our lives. You're so right, Dr, 85 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:03,760 Speaker 1: I think it allows us to just be And I 86 00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:07,520 Speaker 1: feel like, sitting across from my therapist, there's a comfort 87 00:05:07,560 --> 00:05:12,440 Speaker 1: and knowing that her lens and her perspective of kind 88 00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:16,279 Speaker 1: of what I'm going through is not solely fueled or 89 00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:20,839 Speaker 1: informed by lessen like social media or reality TV or 90 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:23,320 Speaker 1: just a book, and all those things are you know, 91 00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:26,320 Speaker 1: helpful in their own right or whatever. It's something about 92 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:28,760 Speaker 1: knowing that you're not seeing me through those lens or 93 00:05:28,839 --> 00:05:32,200 Speaker 1: through those sources of information solely, You're right. So I'm 94 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:34,280 Speaker 1: coming here and I get to put it all out there, 95 00:05:34,760 --> 00:05:36,200 Speaker 1: and you know, it may have taken me a while 96 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:37,880 Speaker 1: to get there, so I don't want to spend all 97 00:05:37,880 --> 00:05:39,559 Speaker 1: of my time trying to catch you up to speed 98 00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:43,120 Speaker 1: about what my experience is like. So yeah, yeah, you know. 99 00:05:43,200 --> 00:05:45,360 Speaker 1: But even with all of those things, and you're right, 100 00:05:45,400 --> 00:05:47,440 Speaker 1: I agree with both of you and everything that you've shared. 101 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:49,839 Speaker 1: But even with all of those things, we also know 102 00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:53,360 Speaker 1: that it is sometimes hard to share what you need 103 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:56,760 Speaker 1: to share in therapy, right, And so I think that 104 00:05:56,800 --> 00:06:00,679 Speaker 1: there are some particular things that happened with black women 105 00:06:00,760 --> 00:06:04,960 Speaker 1: clients seeing black women therapists. So generally, I think it 106 00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:07,320 Speaker 1: may be hard to open up to a therapist. But 107 00:06:07,360 --> 00:06:09,120 Speaker 1: I do think that there are some things that happen 108 00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:11,720 Speaker 1: with black women clients and black women therapists that add 109 00:06:11,760 --> 00:06:15,240 Speaker 1: an additional nuance to that experience. Can you say a 110 00:06:15,279 --> 00:06:17,839 Speaker 1: little bit about that or you know, in your own experience, 111 00:06:17,839 --> 00:06:21,359 Speaker 1: because we're also all black therapists with our own black 112 00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:23,680 Speaker 1: therapists and right, and I do want to talk a 113 00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:25,960 Speaker 1: little bit about that too later, but we'll put opinion that. 114 00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:27,960 Speaker 1: But are there things that have come up in your 115 00:06:27,960 --> 00:06:30,839 Speaker 1: own experiences, are in experiences with your clients that you 116 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:34,120 Speaker 1: feel like, Okay, there's something happening here that I think 117 00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:37,320 Speaker 1: is particular to the dynamic of us both being black women. 118 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:41,000 Speaker 1: I think language, yes, it's a huge thing, even just 119 00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:44,120 Speaker 1: the way in which black women might talk about things, 120 00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:46,000 Speaker 1: and like the storytelling piece of it. So something that 121 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:49,120 Speaker 1: I noticed often and that I also practice is that, 122 00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:51,200 Speaker 1: you know, we talked about building rapport, you know what 123 00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:53,080 Speaker 1: it means to make sure that you listen to a client, 124 00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:55,279 Speaker 1: But I find that particularly important with black women. Write 125 00:06:55,279 --> 00:06:57,560 Speaker 1: the narrative experience right that I'm not coming in, you 126 00:06:57,560 --> 00:06:59,720 Speaker 1: know from jump telling you that this is this, this 127 00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:01,560 Speaker 1: is your diagnosis, this is what needs to be done 128 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:05,200 Speaker 1: right next, versus I'm gonna let you talk for a bit, right, 129 00:07:05,240 --> 00:07:09,120 Speaker 1: because I also understand right culturally and contextually, right, that 130 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:11,640 Speaker 1: you having this space to talk is really important for you. 131 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:13,280 Speaker 1: So I can kind of engage in a little bit 132 00:07:13,320 --> 00:07:16,000 Speaker 1: more kind of observing of that versus kind of coming 133 00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:18,120 Speaker 1: in with the clinical pieces. So that is something that 134 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:20,520 Speaker 1: I noticed as this nuanced practice, like I'm gonna let 135 00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:22,560 Speaker 1: this ride for a little bit right in this way 136 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:24,840 Speaker 1: because it is important for you to be able to 137 00:07:24,840 --> 00:07:27,280 Speaker 1: share these things with me. But also the language piece, right, 138 00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:29,960 Speaker 1: So any kind of euphemisms, that's a whole other conversation, right, 139 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:32,920 Speaker 1: But you missus right that many black women use not 140 00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:35,720 Speaker 1: all because we are not a monolith. I understand that, right, 141 00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:38,320 Speaker 1: But those things do come up the safer you can 142 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:40,720 Speaker 1: feel in a space. And I will notice that black 143 00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:42,520 Speaker 1: women clients not as a means of like testing me, 144 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:45,000 Speaker 1: but they will offer some of those things, right, and 145 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:48,240 Speaker 1: me being able to either understand it already or me 146 00:07:48,320 --> 00:07:50,160 Speaker 1: being able to kind of go with it without like 147 00:07:50,280 --> 00:07:53,320 Speaker 1: doing all this nitpicking around how they are saying things 148 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:56,360 Speaker 1: has also felt really important for me and my personal experience, 149 00:07:56,360 --> 00:07:58,800 Speaker 1: but also what I notice and work with black women, 150 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:00,920 Speaker 1: like letting you tell the story in your own words, 151 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:03,440 Speaker 1: not in my clinical words, but in your own words 152 00:08:03,440 --> 00:08:07,360 Speaker 1: whatever those maybe m hmm, yeah, I like that, Dr A. 153 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:11,160 Speaker 1: I think for me, I think the decision for me 154 00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:14,840 Speaker 1: to go to therapy and to go to therapy first 155 00:08:14,840 --> 00:08:17,040 Speaker 1: of all, Dr A, do we all start therapy on 156 00:08:17,120 --> 00:08:20,560 Speaker 1: post doc because that was my first There's something there 157 00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:24,840 Speaker 1: in and of itself, right, I was like, yes, that's 158 00:08:25,440 --> 00:08:27,800 Speaker 1: exactly when I started, so I can speak to it. 159 00:08:27,880 --> 00:08:31,240 Speaker 1: From the decision to go to therapy and to go 160 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:35,320 Speaker 1: to therapy with a black woman therapist was also what 161 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:38,600 Speaker 1: brought me great discomfort. We all know the stigma that's 162 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:41,400 Speaker 1: attached to go into therapy is putting that aside. What 163 00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:43,960 Speaker 1: I was doing was of course, still having that where 164 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:46,400 Speaker 1: it's like, Okay, we're going to therapy, We're going to 165 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:50,320 Speaker 1: share this side of us. It's being able to unpack 166 00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:56,560 Speaker 1: fully in front of another black woman when typically what 167 00:08:56,559 --> 00:08:58,839 Speaker 1: do we do. We talk about often being the strong 168 00:08:58,880 --> 00:09:03,000 Speaker 1: black woman, and we hold everything together so well, and 169 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:06,680 Speaker 1: we support each other so well. And here I am 170 00:09:06,800 --> 00:09:09,080 Speaker 1: now sitting in front of this person who's doing a 171 00:09:09,080 --> 00:09:11,319 Speaker 1: beautiful job at holding space for me, and I'm having 172 00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:14,880 Speaker 1: to not hold it together, which is what I want. 173 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:17,920 Speaker 1: You know, the decision brings a discomfort. I'm having to 174 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:20,680 Speaker 1: speak my truth and do it with your hand shaking 175 00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:22,839 Speaker 1: in a way. So I think that's what it was. 176 00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:25,160 Speaker 1: It's like, man, I keep it together. Well that's not 177 00:09:25,160 --> 00:09:26,600 Speaker 1: really true. I don't keep it together in front of 178 00:09:26,600 --> 00:09:29,000 Speaker 1: my girlfriends because I have you guys are my real girlfriends. 179 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:31,120 Speaker 1: You know, we keep it together. Awesome, we're out and 180 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:33,000 Speaker 1: we're just you know, we know that we carry a lot. 181 00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:34,920 Speaker 1: We know that we were multiple hats, and so we 182 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:36,800 Speaker 1: see our sisters doing the thing and we're like, go 183 00:09:36,840 --> 00:09:38,560 Speaker 1: a head girl. You know. I had to kind of 184 00:09:38,600 --> 00:09:40,520 Speaker 1: make that switch and say this is the space where 185 00:09:40,520 --> 00:09:43,480 Speaker 1: you don't have to hold it together to allow yourself 186 00:09:43,520 --> 00:09:46,800 Speaker 1: to be vulnerable in front of another black woman. I 187 00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:49,040 Speaker 1: think that was the part that was really challenging. And 188 00:09:49,040 --> 00:09:51,199 Speaker 1: I don't know if I would have felt, you know, like, oh, 189 00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:53,319 Speaker 1: let me pour this all out in front of someone else. 190 00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:55,719 Speaker 1: But I think for me, I'm realizing like, here you are, 191 00:09:56,160 --> 00:09:59,320 Speaker 1: this is your sister. There is this power differential of course, 192 00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:02,440 Speaker 1: but being a what to say and share Truly, what 193 00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:05,880 Speaker 1: my experience of in this world is so as we're 194 00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:08,760 Speaker 1: talking about so good to be seen, it's like she's 195 00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:10,520 Speaker 1: really going to see you. And I don't know how 196 00:10:10,520 --> 00:10:13,280 Speaker 1: often we let people outside of our girlfriend group see 197 00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:14,960 Speaker 1: us in the way that I still allow this person 198 00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:17,080 Speaker 1: to see me. Well, that also just made me think 199 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:20,360 Speaker 1: of is that the relationships that black women as clients 200 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:23,000 Speaker 1: can have with black women therapist is also really connected 201 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:24,920 Speaker 1: to what kinds of relationships do you already have with 202 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:28,600 Speaker 1: black women's already alright, already had experiences where I trusted 203 00:10:28,640 --> 00:10:31,400 Speaker 1: black women to hold space for me. But if I 204 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:33,439 Speaker 1: hadn't had that experience, I can imagine that this might 205 00:10:33,440 --> 00:10:35,400 Speaker 1: also be a harder thing, right to do it, if 206 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:37,600 Speaker 1: it might bring in a lot more anxiety or kind 207 00:10:37,600 --> 00:10:39,960 Speaker 1: of shame or like concern to be able to offer 208 00:10:39,960 --> 00:10:42,800 Speaker 1: that kind of vulnerability. But because I had experiences with 209 00:10:42,840 --> 00:10:45,200 Speaker 1: black women mentors, and because I had some experience with 210 00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:48,280 Speaker 1: black women professors, that was also helpful for me to 211 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:51,160 Speaker 1: see her right in a certain light, saying like, oh, okay, 212 00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:53,720 Speaker 1: I know that it's possible, right that you can do this, 213 00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:55,640 Speaker 1: and I will also again in terms of my particular 214 00:10:55,679 --> 00:10:58,480 Speaker 1: relationship with my therapist. I had also gotten my referral 215 00:10:58,559 --> 00:11:00,520 Speaker 1: was from my black woman meant to right, So that 216 00:11:00,559 --> 00:11:02,360 Speaker 1: also created a lot of safety for me to go 217 00:11:02,400 --> 00:11:04,680 Speaker 1: to her because I'm just like, Okay, she's known me 218 00:11:04,720 --> 00:11:06,360 Speaker 1: in this way, she knows a lot of what I 219 00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:08,240 Speaker 1: need and kind of what I've been experiencing, and she 220 00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:10,160 Speaker 1: trusts her. So that also helped me build up that 221 00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:13,000 Speaker 1: trust beforehand. And it didn't make it easy, was that 222 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:16,280 Speaker 1: because she was also a black woman's psychologist. I can't 223 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:19,440 Speaker 1: I can't say to you that I'm struggling with these 224 00:11:19,480 --> 00:11:23,120 Speaker 1: things like you are in the position that I'm about 225 00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:25,280 Speaker 1: to be in. And that also we have to have 226 00:11:25,320 --> 00:11:28,800 Speaker 1: a whole many, many dialogues about that because I wasn't 227 00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:31,920 Speaker 1: in the field yet as an independent professional. But I 228 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:33,920 Speaker 1: think it was also really helpful for me to have 229 00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:37,320 Speaker 1: a black woman's psychologist on the other side of that 230 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:39,400 Speaker 1: for me to help me through that process and to 231 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:41,160 Speaker 1: help break down some of those things that I was 232 00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:43,959 Speaker 1: coming up against with even talking to her about it, M, 233 00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:47,000 Speaker 1: I like exactly what you said with speaking about it 234 00:11:47,080 --> 00:11:49,240 Speaker 1: from the perspective of being the client with a black 235 00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:52,320 Speaker 1: woman therapist, but also thinking about being the therapist and 236 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:54,360 Speaker 1: having other black women in front of us, and you 237 00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:57,480 Speaker 1: hit it creating a space where it's like, no, this 238 00:11:57,640 --> 00:11:59,960 Speaker 1: is a safe space. I am a black woman who 239 00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:02,360 Speaker 1: you can trust when I say there is no judgment. 240 00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:04,719 Speaker 1: There is no judgment in this space, and you're right 241 00:12:04,840 --> 00:12:08,439 Speaker 1: when I've seen there be great challenges. It's sometimes it's 242 00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:11,840 Speaker 1: often from those who don't have that experience outside of 243 00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:15,960 Speaker 1: the therapeutic room, or having being betrayed by other black women, 244 00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:18,040 Speaker 1: or you know, not feeling that they can trust other 245 00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:20,600 Speaker 1: black women, are not having this strong sister circle of 246 00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:23,360 Speaker 1: black women where they do feel safe, they feel seeing, 247 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:26,280 Speaker 1: they feel that they can be open and vulnerable. So 248 00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:28,920 Speaker 1: now what I'm doing is working against that too, so 249 00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:30,880 Speaker 1: to be that spacing, to create that space, and it 250 00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:32,840 Speaker 1: may take a little bit of time because of that. 251 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:35,920 Speaker 1: So it's more than just building rapport. We're working against 252 00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:38,920 Speaker 1: kind of these years of evidence they may have. Is 253 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:41,040 Speaker 1: this really a safe space? Can I really trust this 254 00:12:41,120 --> 00:12:45,560 Speaker 1: black woman? And that takes time? Yeah, something you said 255 00:12:45,679 --> 00:12:47,560 Speaker 1: Dr Joy earlier and then you kind of heard their 256 00:12:47,640 --> 00:12:50,400 Speaker 1: doctor a is this idea of like this strong black 257 00:12:50,440 --> 00:12:53,880 Speaker 1: woman and how even unconsciously, like we bring this into 258 00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:57,239 Speaker 1: the therapist office, and you know, I have the experience 259 00:12:57,240 --> 00:13:00,240 Speaker 1: of clients telling me that it has been difficult Black 260 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:03,120 Speaker 1: women clients right, telling me that it does feel difficult 261 00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:06,559 Speaker 1: and sometimes unravel in front of me because I may 262 00:13:06,640 --> 00:13:08,640 Speaker 1: look like I have it all together right now, we 263 00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:11,120 Speaker 1: know that we are all just holding our threads together 264 00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:14,680 Speaker 1: the best way we know how, right, But I think 265 00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:19,520 Speaker 1: exactly right. But I think but but to your earlier point, 266 00:13:19,559 --> 00:13:21,480 Speaker 1: Dr Joy, I do think that there is a way 267 00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:23,880 Speaker 1: that we relate to each other, just as black women 268 00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:27,040 Speaker 1: like in the world that is like, okay, sis, I 269 00:13:27,080 --> 00:13:29,240 Speaker 1: see you, right, because we know, like the rest of 270 00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:32,200 Speaker 1: the world can be really rough, and I think when 271 00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:35,480 Speaker 1: you come into therapy it can be difficult to kind 272 00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:38,200 Speaker 1: of move out of that space and as the client 273 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:41,760 Speaker 1: to kind of like allow yourself to unravel in front 274 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:44,760 Speaker 1: of this other person who maybe does look like they 275 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:46,840 Speaker 1: have it together. Right. I mean, your therapist should not 276 00:13:46,880 --> 00:13:49,800 Speaker 1: be spilling all of their junk in your session, right, 277 00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:52,080 Speaker 1: and so there's some of it that you know. Of course, 278 00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:54,160 Speaker 1: it's not about us, and so you don't know everything 279 00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:56,320 Speaker 1: that we may be struggling with. But I do think 280 00:13:56,320 --> 00:13:59,360 Speaker 1: that that makes it difficult I think sometimes for black 281 00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:02,240 Speaker 1: women to do the deep digging that is necessary. And 282 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:03,920 Speaker 1: I love to hear from you, dr, because I knew 283 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:06,520 Speaker 1: you talk a lot about like black women's vulnerability, right, 284 00:14:06,559 --> 00:14:08,800 Speaker 1: And I think that this is so so important, you know, 285 00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:12,680 Speaker 1: we know in the therapy space. Yeah, yeah, And I 286 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:15,160 Speaker 1: think that that is even as you were you're just 287 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:16,959 Speaker 1: speaking of there are things that I can remember that 288 00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:19,200 Speaker 1: my therapist, and we've been working together for ten years, 289 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:23,400 Speaker 1: that she has said that. I'm almost certain that if 290 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:26,760 Speaker 1: I had a therapist of a different race or gender, 291 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:28,240 Speaker 1: I would not have heard it in the same way. 292 00:14:28,280 --> 00:14:30,960 Speaker 1: So when she talks about things like, hey, what's going on, 293 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:32,480 Speaker 1: you know, what's making a heart to open up? Just 294 00:14:32,560 --> 00:14:34,320 Speaker 1: kind of simple questions like that, I know that I 295 00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:36,280 Speaker 1: would have a different response if say a white woman 296 00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:38,280 Speaker 1: asked me like, what do you think is getting in 297 00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:39,760 Speaker 1: the way of us being able to like stay on 298 00:14:39,800 --> 00:14:42,840 Speaker 1: this topic today, right, I'd have a whole different reaction 299 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:44,760 Speaker 1: versus like, Okay, well, you know, I don't want to 300 00:14:44,760 --> 00:14:46,720 Speaker 1: talk about this, Like there's a way in which we 301 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:49,560 Speaker 1: can say some things and again she can move with 302 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:52,400 Speaker 1: it and with some of the contextualizing of it. The 303 00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:55,080 Speaker 1: vulnerability piece, I will say in the beginning was hard, 304 00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:59,080 Speaker 1: and I had this paradox of already feeling safe because 305 00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:02,400 Speaker 1: there was a referral. I felt safe in the referral. 306 00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:04,160 Speaker 1: I felt safe in what I knew of her training. 307 00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:06,080 Speaker 1: I felt safing kind of all these different ways I 308 00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:08,440 Speaker 1: had referred to her before, like all this kind of stuff, right. 309 00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:11,000 Speaker 1: But at the same time, for me, it was like, Man, 310 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:14,040 Speaker 1: you are moving me through things that I assume you 311 00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:17,480 Speaker 1: don't go through because you've done this so much better 312 00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:21,600 Speaker 1: than me, right, because you've now got this office space, 313 00:15:21,640 --> 00:15:23,600 Speaker 1: you've got an assistant, you've got all these things that 314 00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:25,840 Speaker 1: are set up right. And I think it's also particularly 315 00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:28,400 Speaker 1: given where I was in my career and seeing her 316 00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:30,520 Speaker 1: that maybe more vulnerable. I don't think i'd have those 317 00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:33,320 Speaker 1: same responses or reactions now. That made it a little 318 00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:35,800 Speaker 1: bit more difficult to talk to her about, you know, 319 00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:39,720 Speaker 1: anxiety about the exam and anxiety about relate mind you, 320 00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:41,480 Speaker 1: I have no clue. I don't know she passed on 321 00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:44,280 Speaker 1: the first second. I don't know anything her in this 322 00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:47,000 Speaker 1: license your exam, right, I don't know think about any 323 00:15:47,040 --> 00:15:49,760 Speaker 1: of her process. I don't know what she experienced in 324 00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:51,680 Speaker 1: graduate school or raised a lot. I don't know any 325 00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:53,920 Speaker 1: of those things, but the fact that she could name 326 00:15:54,040 --> 00:15:56,280 Speaker 1: that those might be things that I might be experiencing 327 00:15:56,280 --> 00:15:58,760 Speaker 1: without her having to say I had these things happen 328 00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:01,840 Speaker 1: was really important for me, and her willingness to go 329 00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:05,160 Speaker 1: really slow with me. I think sometimes what oftentimes what 330 00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:08,680 Speaker 1: comes up is because we are mental health professionals, people 331 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:10,560 Speaker 1: might also expect us to show up in a certain 332 00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:13,640 Speaker 1: way in the world and in therapy. And what she 333 00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:16,080 Speaker 1: often she still says its times it's like, hey, you 334 00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:18,400 Speaker 1: are not a therapist here, you're not a psychologist here. 335 00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:21,360 Speaker 1: I understand that you are, but you are not that here, 336 00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:24,520 Speaker 1: and like, let's slow down right in that space. And 337 00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:28,040 Speaker 1: that took me a little bit a while to actually practice. 338 00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:31,320 Speaker 1: I'd heard say it time and time again, and I'd say, yeah, 339 00:16:31,320 --> 00:16:33,360 Speaker 1: this is going on, but I understand that. You know, 340 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:35,960 Speaker 1: if they is clinically, this is what's going on with them, 341 00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:37,560 Speaker 1: so I sctoually have more empathy for them. And she'd 342 00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:39,680 Speaker 1: be like, not in here, Like that is not what 343 00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:42,680 Speaker 1: we are doing. That is not your role in here. 344 00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:44,840 Speaker 1: And those were the things that we're really helpful for 345 00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:48,160 Speaker 1: me to He's like, Oh, that's what she means by 346 00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:51,600 Speaker 1: the stripping of the cape and the vulnerability and the honesty, 347 00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:54,400 Speaker 1: right that I thought that I was giving in here, 348 00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:58,080 Speaker 1: but I'm actually not really giving any here, right. And 349 00:16:58,120 --> 00:17:00,400 Speaker 1: like I said, just the slowness of that doesn't mean 350 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:02,200 Speaker 1: that it doesn't get kicked up every now and then 351 00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:04,119 Speaker 1: when something else comes up and I feel more vulnerable. 352 00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:06,480 Speaker 1: But now that we've been working together for so long, 353 00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:08,720 Speaker 1: it's easier for us to kind of get into the 354 00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:10,720 Speaker 1: kind of underbelly of things. And it was maybe in 355 00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:13,400 Speaker 1: the first two years of our work, but I had 356 00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:16,960 Speaker 1: to really challenge myself in a lot of ways to say, hey, 357 00:17:17,080 --> 00:17:19,439 Speaker 1: why aren't you doing this in a different way, like 358 00:17:19,480 --> 00:17:21,199 Speaker 1: all these things that you say to your clients, like 359 00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:24,520 Speaker 1: why are you putting up this barrier? Like why aren't 360 00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:26,760 Speaker 1: you doing your homework? Like why aren't you doing all 361 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:29,480 Speaker 1: of these things to allow you to really like slow 362 00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:31,280 Speaker 1: down and be in that space and then be able 363 00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:33,520 Speaker 1: to have those kinds of conversations with her. But you know, 364 00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:35,240 Speaker 1: I gave a little bit of a run. It wasn't easy. 365 00:17:35,359 --> 00:17:38,240 Speaker 1: It was it that's it easy for me to get 366 00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:40,600 Speaker 1: there again? That is what is the most helpful right 367 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:43,280 Speaker 1: in terms of the therapeutic relationship. How honest can you be? 368 00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:47,080 Speaker 1: How untethered do you allow yourself to look? Right in session? 369 00:17:47,119 --> 00:17:49,159 Speaker 1: Am I still trying to like conceal my tears? Am 370 00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:51,000 Speaker 1: I still trying to zip this up? Because I gotta 371 00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:53,480 Speaker 1: patient next, Like all those kinds of things that we've 372 00:17:53,560 --> 00:17:55,840 Speaker 1: really been able to work on, so that I can 373 00:17:55,920 --> 00:17:57,760 Speaker 1: learn that it's okay for me to be vulnerable too. 374 00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:03,240 Speaker 1: I deserve the same things that I all offer to clients. Yeah. Absolutely, 375 00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:05,600 Speaker 1: I had to learn that that it is okay, just 376 00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:08,520 Speaker 1: like you're saying, for her to hold space like we 377 00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:12,359 Speaker 1: often hold space, and that we are worthy and deserving 378 00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:15,800 Speaker 1: of being held just like we hold others. Of course, 379 00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:18,440 Speaker 1: all the holding holding inside of our work, and then 380 00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:22,480 Speaker 1: you know the holding personally in our various relationships and friendships, 381 00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:25,119 Speaker 1: and so you know, allowing the space to beat what 382 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:27,040 Speaker 1: it's supposed to be. And I think one of the 383 00:18:27,040 --> 00:18:30,560 Speaker 1: beautiful things about having her as our therapist is having 384 00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:34,120 Speaker 1: someone who isn't timid, who isn't shy, and who can 385 00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:37,280 Speaker 1: challenge you in a way that we need to be challenged. 386 00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:39,320 Speaker 1: A you hit it on the nail on the head 387 00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:42,080 Speaker 1: when you said, had I received some of these messages 388 00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:44,439 Speaker 1: that I received from someone else, I probably would have 389 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:47,160 Speaker 1: sat back and you don't know my life. You don't 390 00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:49,959 Speaker 1: know my Chris, how dare you ask me that? Like 391 00:18:50,080 --> 00:18:52,439 Speaker 1: I would have received that in a number of different ways. 392 00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:54,800 Speaker 1: But being able to be like, M, well, actually you 393 00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:56,520 Speaker 1: do know my life. I've shed a lot of it 394 00:18:56,560 --> 00:18:58,800 Speaker 1: with you, and actually you do know my experience, and 395 00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:01,200 Speaker 1: so being forced to kind of sit in it because 396 00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:03,480 Speaker 1: it took away some of those excuses as well. But 397 00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:05,479 Speaker 1: you know, I love the way that no, I'm not 398 00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:08,040 Speaker 1: backing down from you. From one black woman to another, 399 00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:10,080 Speaker 1: it's like, no, we're gonna sit in this. What's the 400 00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:12,560 Speaker 1: reason for that. I don't remember the question or what 401 00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:15,080 Speaker 1: I was doing, but I remember the moment where I 402 00:19:15,119 --> 00:19:17,199 Speaker 1: was like, oh, yeah, she's not gonna let me. You know, 403 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:20,399 Speaker 1: there was something that I said and I gave like 404 00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:23,760 Speaker 1: all of these other explanations forward, you know, and then 405 00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:25,679 Speaker 1: I kind of felt bad, like am I excusing my 406 00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:28,120 Speaker 1: black experience? But I remember her saying something to me, 407 00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:31,800 Speaker 1: I wonder if you're doing that because traditionally you've always 408 00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:35,000 Speaker 1: had to work hard as a black woman. I was 409 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:37,240 Speaker 1: prepping for something. I put in all of these hours 410 00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:38,959 Speaker 1: or whatever, and it's like, you know you're only really 411 00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:40,840 Speaker 1: getting paid for one hour, right, but you know you 412 00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:42,960 Speaker 1: put in like three hours for this talk or whatever. 413 00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:45,800 Speaker 1: And it's like and I had all these excuses in 414 00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:47,560 Speaker 1: terms of why I did it, And I remember her 415 00:19:47,560 --> 00:19:50,080 Speaker 1: bringing me back to like who I am and for 416 00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:52,320 Speaker 1: her to be able to say that to me, and 417 00:19:52,359 --> 00:19:55,359 Speaker 1: I was like, you know what, Okay, you're right, it 418 00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:59,160 Speaker 1: ain't know this if you're right, Okay, No to shape 419 00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:03,000 Speaker 1: how much more time we got because it's starting to 420 00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:07,560 Speaker 1: feel really warm in here, so we have or now 421 00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:10,199 Speaker 1: like where where are being? Look the place for us 422 00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:12,640 Speaker 1: to stop and pick up next week? Right? Right, let's 423 00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:15,359 Speaker 1: let us wrap this up. More from my conversation with 424 00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:30,200 Speaker 1: Dr Abrahams and Dr beckwith after the break. Yeah, and 425 00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:32,680 Speaker 1: you know you both have made these comments around like 426 00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:36,080 Speaker 1: many of us want to go to a therapist to 427 00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:38,959 Speaker 1: feel seen, right, like we want to have this place. 428 00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:41,240 Speaker 1: You know that we don't have this extra judgment and 429 00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:43,679 Speaker 1: there is no other context besides what we share in 430 00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:46,520 Speaker 1: this forty five to fifty minutes, but there is something 431 00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:50,960 Speaker 1: very intimidating and uncomfortable. I think when you really are seen, 432 00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:54,160 Speaker 1: and I do think that that is a particular gift 433 00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:57,520 Speaker 1: that many black women do have, is like the scene, right, like, 434 00:20:57,640 --> 00:21:00,560 Speaker 1: we really can't see what you are leaving out, and 435 00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:03,639 Speaker 1: so I think that that is what makes people uncomfortable sometimes, 436 00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:05,840 Speaker 1: But that really is the work of therapy, right, is 437 00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:08,480 Speaker 1: for you to get to the place where you really 438 00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:10,600 Speaker 1: can allow me to say, like, Okay, I see what 439 00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:12,879 Speaker 1: you're doing here, and let's look at where else this 440 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:14,880 Speaker 1: might be playing out in your life and how it's 441 00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:18,800 Speaker 1: impacting you. I think that's something that my therapists also 442 00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:22,200 Speaker 1: offered me in such a really beautiful and like nuanced way. 443 00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:26,440 Speaker 1: Is not penalizing me for the strong black woman troupe, 444 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:30,080 Speaker 1: not you know, not pathologizing it because she gets it 445 00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:33,120 Speaker 1: and she gets why it's problematic to also pathologize it, 446 00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:36,720 Speaker 1: but really helping me with the discernment of you're gonna 447 00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:38,879 Speaker 1: need some of that. We're not gonna get rid of it. 448 00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:42,400 Speaker 1: You would in this here world, and you're gonna need 449 00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:45,040 Speaker 1: some of that, but let's help you actually better decide 450 00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:47,679 Speaker 1: when it's effective to use that versus the ways in 451 00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:50,119 Speaker 1: which is actually getting in the way. We need some 452 00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:52,480 Speaker 1: of that to continue to protect ourselves, to continue to 453 00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:56,240 Speaker 1: rally around ourselves, continue to resource ourselves. But her helping 454 00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:58,480 Speaker 1: me understand when I'm crossing the threshold, and often times 455 00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:00,240 Speaker 1: she can see that before I can see it, but 456 00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:03,720 Speaker 1: not making me feel guilt or shame or like you 457 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:06,959 Speaker 1: should know better or you know, your ancestors did all 458 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:08,640 Speaker 1: this work so that you could just rest. Why aren't 459 00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:10,080 Speaker 1: you sleeping this week? And like she doesn't do it 460 00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:11,960 Speaker 1: in that way, But that's why I said that. She 461 00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:13,760 Speaker 1: has helped me learn the dance of when I need 462 00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:16,200 Speaker 1: some parts of that and when I don't, and I don't. 463 00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:20,120 Speaker 1: I have a hard time believing that other therapists would 464 00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:23,159 Speaker 1: be able to offer that kind of beautiful nuance and 465 00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:25,919 Speaker 1: that kind of dance around it. Yeah, having someone that 466 00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:28,800 Speaker 1: helps us to restructure and reshape it in a way 467 00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:33,639 Speaker 1: they still honors the experience. M. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, It's 468 00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:35,360 Speaker 1: like you said, we need some of it, we don't 469 00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:37,399 Speaker 1: want to get rid of it. But knowing like, okay, 470 00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:39,199 Speaker 1: that's you know, you're doing the most right now and 471 00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:41,359 Speaker 1: being able to kind of hold me in that and 472 00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:44,280 Speaker 1: it's like, okay, you're right as opposed to having to 473 00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:48,600 Speaker 1: push back against that m so the other side of 474 00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:51,520 Speaker 1: I think what we're talking about. I have also heard 475 00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:54,439 Speaker 1: complaints may not be the best word, but I have 476 00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:58,680 Speaker 1: also heard commentary from black women clients who have had 477 00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:01,760 Speaker 1: an experience with a black woman therapists and they felt 478 00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:05,000 Speaker 1: it was two girlfriend like right, So it's kind of 479 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:08,520 Speaker 1: feels like, Okay, this maybe doesn't feel as challenging. Can 480 00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:10,800 Speaker 1: you talk about like maybe some I mean, of course 481 00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:13,000 Speaker 1: we don't know particular experiences, but what do you think 482 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:16,400 Speaker 1: maybe happening in those situations where it does feel therapeutic 483 00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:20,720 Speaker 1: but it doesn't really feel different than talking to my girlfriend? Yeah. One, 484 00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:22,920 Speaker 1: I always wonder like where the training pieces. I think 485 00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:24,680 Speaker 1: the whole other piece right around that. But I think 486 00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:27,520 Speaker 1: that is the counter transference. Right then we recognize can 487 00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:29,879 Speaker 1: you back up and explain counter transference to us? What 488 00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:33,080 Speaker 1: does that mean? It's almost like over relating, over connecting 489 00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:36,160 Speaker 1: in a way that is outside of the therapeutic framework. 490 00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:39,439 Speaker 1: It doesn't hold the same boundaries of the therapeutic relationship 491 00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:41,560 Speaker 1: where I am your therapist, I am not your friend. 492 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:45,240 Speaker 1: We do not text, we do not socialize. I do 493 00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:47,879 Speaker 1: not share a lot about myself with you. I can 494 00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:50,639 Speaker 1: share some things in terms of what's appropriate self disclosure. 495 00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:53,200 Speaker 1: But I think that's where the line tips as a therapist, 496 00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:56,480 Speaker 1: depending on your relationships with black women. And I think 497 00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:58,440 Speaker 1: the other piece that can sometimes come up is that 498 00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:01,000 Speaker 1: because you want this to be such an open space, 499 00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:03,399 Speaker 1: I think sometimes we take it too far because we 500 00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:05,639 Speaker 1: want this to be so safe and so comfortable, and 501 00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:07,360 Speaker 1: we know that it was hard for you to make 502 00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:09,280 Speaker 1: it in here. We know it's hard for you to 503 00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:12,320 Speaker 1: be vulnerable. I think sometimes we overcorrect by making it 504 00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:14,760 Speaker 1: a bit too social in the room. And now the 505 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:17,359 Speaker 1: clients are also getting a bit more savvy with like no, no, no, 506 00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:19,919 Speaker 1: that's that's not what they said you're supposed to be 507 00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:23,040 Speaker 1: talking to me about. I think clients are more aware 508 00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:25,520 Speaker 1: of it. But I think that that sometimes that can 509 00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:29,159 Speaker 1: be the therapist attempting to not take responsibility for but 510 00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:35,240 Speaker 1: to overcorrect for the difficulties maybe an intimacy or vulnerability 511 00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:39,480 Speaker 1: or openness, by trying to make this too not too safe, 512 00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:41,760 Speaker 1: but too not too easy. I don't have the right word, 513 00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:44,440 Speaker 1: but trying to super cool to like we're yeah, because 514 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:46,840 Speaker 1: because the power differential is real, right, Like, there is 515 00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:51,280 Speaker 1: a power differential that exists between client and therapists, but 516 00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:53,199 Speaker 1: you're talking about it. Dr A. I think it's that 517 00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:56,120 Speaker 1: fine line. You're trying to make it comfortable but still 518 00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:58,399 Speaker 1: keep the power differential. We know how tough it is. 519 00:24:58,440 --> 00:24:59,959 Speaker 1: It's like, you know, when we say we don't understand, 520 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:02,600 Speaker 1: we overstand. It's like, you know, we know how difficult 521 00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:04,480 Speaker 1: it was for you to perhaps get here. We know 522 00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:07,760 Speaker 1: how uncomfortable it is to be across from us in 523 00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:10,439 Speaker 1: the situation, and we want you to feel comfortable. But 524 00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:13,520 Speaker 1: you're right, that's perhaps where the training comes into play. 525 00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:16,439 Speaker 1: Where how do I steal make you feel comfortable? How 526 00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:19,160 Speaker 1: do we have a strong rapport where you do feel seen, 527 00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:21,520 Speaker 1: you do feel understood, but you don't feel like we're 528 00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:24,880 Speaker 1: having a fireside chat every time. We're also knowing too 529 00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:28,000 Speaker 1: that we know it's easy to talk about certain things, 530 00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:30,600 Speaker 1: and so it's like we also do what's comfortable. It's 531 00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:33,280 Speaker 1: easy sometimes to have these conversations, to laugh and chat 532 00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:35,840 Speaker 1: this way, which basically help us in terms of a 533 00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:38,720 Speaker 1: coping mechanism, avoiding it instead of shining the light on 534 00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:40,199 Speaker 1: what we need to shine the light on. So some 535 00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:43,600 Speaker 1: of those conversations are in fact, perhaps even the therapist 536 00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:45,960 Speaker 1: kind of since in the discomfort of the client or 537 00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:48,800 Speaker 1: the client going towards this small chat because of the 538 00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:51,720 Speaker 1: discomfort of it. So we're trying to make you comfortable. 539 00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:53,639 Speaker 1: We want you to be comfortable. And then some of 540 00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:55,320 Speaker 1: these things that we're talking about that we have not 541 00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:58,720 Speaker 1: talked about with so many others is uncomfortable. So I 542 00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:01,239 Speaker 1: think it's all of that and us over correcting for 543 00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:04,320 Speaker 1: a lot of things. But I think that's where our 544 00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:06,800 Speaker 1: ethics and our training comes into play, and it's like, 545 00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:08,600 Speaker 1: you know what, no, you know, I'm here for you, 546 00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:11,280 Speaker 1: I have you, I got you, and you don't have 547 00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:13,960 Speaker 1: to text me tonight, and I'm not going to eat 548 00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:15,879 Speaker 1: while I'm talking to you. I honor you, and I 549 00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:18,760 Speaker 1: respect you and your time and the energy that you're 550 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:21,960 Speaker 1: putting into this space and this experience. Yeah, anything you 551 00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:24,960 Speaker 1: did there. I think the ways in which I see 552 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:27,480 Speaker 1: that come up the most is keeping clients on track 553 00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:29,919 Speaker 1: in the therapeutic relationship, and that peans about sharing of 554 00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:33,320 Speaker 1: ourselves right and ways in which ideally we're using self 555 00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:36,200 Speaker 1: disclosure only as needed, and that is to build rapport 556 00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:38,240 Speaker 1: and too deep in safety. But because it can be 557 00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:40,040 Speaker 1: so easy to get into that girl talk where we're 558 00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:42,679 Speaker 1: just chatting about our different experiences, and I think some 559 00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:46,159 Speaker 1: therapists might begin oversharing right about their personal experience in 560 00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:49,040 Speaker 1: an effort to align, in an effort to say you 561 00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:51,119 Speaker 1: are not alone in this. I don't want you to 562 00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:54,520 Speaker 1: feel isolated in this. Even me in this power differential, 563 00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:57,520 Speaker 1: I also experienced these same things in the world, maybe 564 00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:00,800 Speaker 1: in terms of racism or massage or are or dating 565 00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:03,679 Speaker 1: issues things like that. But that's where the ethics come 566 00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:06,760 Speaker 1: into kind of ground, like, Hey, what is it that 567 00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:09,679 Speaker 1: you're trying to help them experience and is this the 568 00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:11,960 Speaker 1: only way to help them experience that? Like what's coming 569 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:14,280 Speaker 1: up for you where you want to be so attuned 570 00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:16,760 Speaker 1: to them? Where is your skill set to actually hold 571 00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:19,879 Speaker 1: that frame? And oftentimes that those two things are problematic, 572 00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:22,000 Speaker 1: We're going to see this kind of blurredline in there, 573 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:25,040 Speaker 1: and unfortunately most clients don't recognize that because they don't 574 00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:27,919 Speaker 1: understand the frame of therapy. Really we haven't said it, 575 00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:30,639 Speaker 1: so they're not getting their needs met. It feels like 576 00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:32,639 Speaker 1: another kind of girl chat that might have like a 577 00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:34,640 Speaker 1: little bit more structure around in terms of when they 578 00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:36,960 Speaker 1: can talk. But I'm also noticing that more in terms 579 00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:40,359 Speaker 1: of social media connections, and you know, what does it 580 00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:42,959 Speaker 1: mean if you are following a therapist, and what does 581 00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:45,199 Speaker 1: it mean that therapist might also be following you or 582 00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:46,840 Speaker 1: like sharing things and all that kind of stuff. So 583 00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:48,960 Speaker 1: I think it still is extremely important to set the 584 00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:51,399 Speaker 1: frame and say, yes, while this is this kind of 585 00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:53,399 Speaker 1: space for you, I actually want to support you in 586 00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:56,440 Speaker 1: building relationships with other women. Let's actually focus on that 587 00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:58,640 Speaker 1: so that it doesn't have to be me in here. 588 00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:00,520 Speaker 1: But I've noticed that, you know, when we talk about 589 00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:02,560 Speaker 1: some things, we don't get to this part of it. 590 00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:04,879 Speaker 1: Do you have people who you can talk to about 591 00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:06,639 Speaker 1: those things outside? Like that's the way to kind of 592 00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:09,040 Speaker 1: bring it back out of the therapy. I noticed we 593 00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:10,479 Speaker 1: bring up a lot of this or this or this. 594 00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:12,480 Speaker 1: Do you ever talk to anybody about dating outside of 595 00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:15,359 Speaker 1: here to also help them see that they can create 596 00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:16,800 Speaker 1: spaces like that. But we might have to do a 597 00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:19,479 Speaker 1: little bit more work to find it, right because depending 598 00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:22,200 Speaker 1: on the client and where they are located, what their 599 00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:25,080 Speaker 1: experiences have been, I might be the only black women 600 00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:28,280 Speaker 1: who they are talking to about any of this stuff, right, 601 00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:31,000 Speaker 1: So do I find myself feeling responsible for giving them 602 00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:34,080 Speaker 1: all these things versus actually helping them build up some 603 00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:36,600 Speaker 1: social skills and kind of expand their their circle to 604 00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:39,120 Speaker 1: kind of get that need met. Mm hmmm. So I 605 00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:41,960 Speaker 1: feel like y'all are preaching because where both of you 606 00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:44,960 Speaker 1: are talking about is really the self awareness we need 607 00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:47,760 Speaker 1: to have this therapists to know when our own stuff 608 00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:50,120 Speaker 1: is coming up, right, And so, you know, we all 609 00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:53,160 Speaker 1: go through, however many years of training that we go through, 610 00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:56,280 Speaker 1: but after training, it's still important for us to be 611 00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:59,240 Speaker 1: engaged in like some kind of supervision or some kind 612 00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:03,400 Speaker 1: of peer super vision and additional continuing education, because we 613 00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:06,560 Speaker 1: don't stop being human after training, right. And so the 614 00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:08,760 Speaker 1: kind of transference that you were talking about, you know, 615 00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:11,560 Speaker 1: like that stuff comes up and it's not necessarily a 616 00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:13,720 Speaker 1: bad thing. It's how you use it and what you 617 00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:16,520 Speaker 1: do with it that makes the difference. Right. So, if 618 00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:19,080 Speaker 1: you have this kind of transference come up where you 619 00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:21,719 Speaker 1: are reacting to a client as if they're like your 620 00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:25,160 Speaker 1: little sister, it's not a bad thing that had happened, 621 00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:27,480 Speaker 1: but it is a question for like, Okay, what's going 622 00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:29,760 Speaker 1: on with me that I am now not in the 623 00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:32,400 Speaker 1: role of the therapist, but now I'm seeing myself more 624 00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:35,920 Speaker 1: in like a sisterly kind of relationship and what kinds 625 00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:38,080 Speaker 1: of areas in my own life do I need to address? 626 00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:40,520 Speaker 1: And so the addressing it outside of the therapy room 627 00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:45,000 Speaker 1: happens in peer supervision or paid supervision or group supervision, right, 628 00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:47,320 Speaker 1: And so I think that that's something else that maybe 629 00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:49,760 Speaker 1: clients don't know, is that that is a lot of 630 00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:52,360 Speaker 1: what we're doing outside of therapy too, is like engaging 631 00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:55,840 Speaker 1: in consultation with our colleagues around like, hey, this thing 632 00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:58,240 Speaker 1: happened for me and I really need some insight. What 633 00:29:58,280 --> 00:29:59,920 Speaker 1: do you think? Can you give me some inside about 634 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:03,040 Speaker 1: it may be happening with this client? And I think 635 00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:05,480 Speaker 1: what that also just made me think of is not 636 00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:07,920 Speaker 1: only can that countertransference show up in more of this 637 00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:10,960 Speaker 1: kind of girlfriend girl chat way, sometimes that countertransference can 638 00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:14,320 Speaker 1: show up in terms of an increased sense of responsibility 639 00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:17,400 Speaker 1: for our clients, like, man, that you are so important, right, 640 00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:19,840 Speaker 1: I know, like what is going on is so important. 641 00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:22,600 Speaker 1: I might find myself doing more. I might find myself 642 00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:24,680 Speaker 1: feeling more responsible for it's going on for you. I 643 00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:28,000 Speaker 1: might find myself feeling more in distress, right that things 644 00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:29,600 Speaker 1: are not changing for you, that you are in so 645 00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:31,280 Speaker 1: much pain, that you have not gotten out of this 646 00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:34,320 Speaker 1: abusive relationship that you have not gotten out of this job, right. 647 00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:37,120 Speaker 1: So that's why really paying attention to what is coming 648 00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:39,360 Speaker 1: up for you in that self awareness is really important. 649 00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:42,080 Speaker 1: It's not only the positive kind of soft way. It 650 00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:45,000 Speaker 1: can really really hinder right the work if you find 651 00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:48,280 Speaker 1: yourself doing too much and trying to get them to 652 00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:50,560 Speaker 1: do too much so that you feel better, so that 653 00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:52,360 Speaker 1: you feel like he helped them, so you feel like 654 00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:54,600 Speaker 1: you've saved this black woman. I think that's something that 655 00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:57,640 Speaker 1: black women, therepies really really need to keep an eye on. 656 00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:00,920 Speaker 1: It's the self awareness part, whether we're getting that in 657 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:04,000 Speaker 1: our consultation groups or supervision groups and also in our 658 00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:06,600 Speaker 1: own therapy work, like you said, Dr eight, because we 659 00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:08,560 Speaker 1: may miss it. It's like, what is it like you're, 660 00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:10,680 Speaker 1: you know, overly caring for this person, or you're doing 661 00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:12,600 Speaker 1: a lot of extra work for this person, or you're 662 00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:15,840 Speaker 1: really feeling a sense of responsibility you know, for this person. 663 00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:18,360 Speaker 1: It's like, what is it with you where you feel 664 00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:20,520 Speaker 1: that this is your role? Or looking like are you 665 00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:23,080 Speaker 1: seeing all of your quote unquote little sisters and what 666 00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:25,160 Speaker 1: is it about you? How did we get in this situation? 667 00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:28,800 Speaker 1: And being self aware knowing what your strengths and weaknesses are. Dr. 668 00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:31,239 Speaker 1: And you mentioned something earlier when you said, we're in 669 00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:34,200 Speaker 1: this social media age where someone may follow you on 670 00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:37,280 Speaker 1: Instagram or follow you on Facebook or you know, something 671 00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:39,880 Speaker 1: like that, and it's like knowing what your boundaries are 672 00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:43,240 Speaker 1: if in fact, I'm overly connected to you, And is 673 00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:44,960 Speaker 1: that preventing us from being able to do some of 674 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:47,280 Speaker 1: this deeper work in therapy because now we're talking about 675 00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:49,440 Speaker 1: whatever we saw on social media or what you saw 676 00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:53,120 Speaker 1: me posts. So really being self aware, really knowing what 677 00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:56,320 Speaker 1: your strengths and weaknesses are, and then having other spaces 678 00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:58,800 Speaker 1: where we can talk about how these things are impacting us. 679 00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:01,800 Speaker 1: So outside of the continue with education, outside of I'm 680 00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:06,040 Speaker 1: a therapist in product practice. Yeah, more from my conversation 681 00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:18,640 Speaker 1: with Dr Abrahams and Dr beckwith after the break. So 682 00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:22,640 Speaker 1: what would you share with clients when some of these 683 00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:26,560 Speaker 1: maybe awkward things come up? You know, like if I 684 00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:29,280 Speaker 1: have to maybe have a difficult conversation with my therapist 685 00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:31,840 Speaker 1: because I do feel like this feels like too much 686 00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:34,800 Speaker 1: of a girlfriend chat, or maybe my therapist like fell 687 00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:38,200 Speaker 1: asleep during session right, or you know, I feel like 688 00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:41,560 Speaker 1: they acted inappropriately not not unethically, because I feel like 689 00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:44,040 Speaker 1: that's a different conversation. But if you know, just something 690 00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:47,120 Speaker 1: that like maybe you found offensive or you feel like, oh, 691 00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:50,280 Speaker 1: that feels weird for a therapist to be doing, right, Like, 692 00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:53,800 Speaker 1: what kinds of suggestions do you have for people listening 693 00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:56,920 Speaker 1: who may need to have like a difficult conversation with 694 00:32:56,960 --> 00:32:59,640 Speaker 1: their therapists, and why maybe is it important to even 695 00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:02,560 Speaker 1: have the conversation. I think anything that gets in the 696 00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:04,880 Speaker 1: way or that you feel maybe getting in the way 697 00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:07,320 Speaker 1: of getting what it is that you need. And so 698 00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:09,920 Speaker 1: you're coming here for a particular reason. You're coming here 699 00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:12,400 Speaker 1: to do the work, and I think anything that gets 700 00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:15,920 Speaker 1: in the way of you doing the work warrants a conversation. 701 00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:18,240 Speaker 1: It's an investment of your time as an investment of 702 00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:21,800 Speaker 1: your resources. And so I think, however, you have to 703 00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:24,000 Speaker 1: do what I've encouraged some people to do sometimes is 704 00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:25,640 Speaker 1: if it's tough to kind of bring it up in 705 00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:27,560 Speaker 1: that moment, to even send a message and say, hey, 706 00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:29,840 Speaker 1: i'd like to, you know, talk with you next session, 707 00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:32,160 Speaker 1: so that you're prepping yourself and you're not backing out 708 00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:34,200 Speaker 1: of it in the moment. You're prepping yourself. And also 709 00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:36,960 Speaker 1: prepping the therapist. You know, I like to talk to 710 00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:39,040 Speaker 1: you next session about some of the work that we're doing. 711 00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:41,720 Speaker 1: And you know, our goals are progress. Are we in 712 00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:44,160 Speaker 1: alignment with the framework that we have set forth, you 713 00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:46,239 Speaker 1: still have the same goals in mind for me and 714 00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:48,400 Speaker 1: being able to share in that space. And I want 715 00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:51,280 Speaker 1: to make sure that my anxiety or my you know, 716 00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:53,959 Speaker 1: my trauma is still the the forefront and you can 717 00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:55,400 Speaker 1: even own your part of It's like, you know, I 718 00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:57,680 Speaker 1: feel so comfortable with you. I feel that it can 719 00:33:57,720 --> 00:33:59,080 Speaker 1: come in and I can talk to you about these 720 00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:01,240 Speaker 1: various things. But I want to make sure that I 721 00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:03,360 Speaker 1: don't get off track with doing the work for something 722 00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:06,200 Speaker 1: else and allowing your therapists to hold space and to 723 00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:08,960 Speaker 1: show you a positive experience if you are not getting 724 00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:12,040 Speaker 1: what you want or what you feel that you are 725 00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:15,240 Speaker 1: coming there for allowing her to correct the experience because 726 00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:18,600 Speaker 1: sometimes it's like we don't know you're getting something, and 727 00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:21,319 Speaker 1: allowing us to correct that experience. But I like being 728 00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:23,680 Speaker 1: able to know ahead of time if you don't feel 729 00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:25,319 Speaker 1: comfortable in the moment, so you can let them know 730 00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:27,680 Speaker 1: the a message that you like to talk about this 731 00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:29,840 Speaker 1: and it holds you accountable, so you cannot back away 732 00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:32,400 Speaker 1: when you get in that session. It's like your email, 733 00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:34,480 Speaker 1: it sounds like you really want to talk about your 734 00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:36,759 Speaker 1: goals and revisit where we are in terms of our 735 00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:39,520 Speaker 1: our plan and our work together. But knowing that you're 736 00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:41,960 Speaker 1: worth that you don't have to endure something if you 737 00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:43,680 Speaker 1: don't feel that you're getting what it is that you 738 00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:46,080 Speaker 1: want and you need. But also knowing that we want 739 00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:48,080 Speaker 1: you to get what it is that you came there for, 740 00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:51,520 Speaker 1: so you know you're not hurting anyone's feelings. No one's disappointed. 741 00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:54,280 Speaker 1: It's like, we want you to get what you came for. Yeah, 742 00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:56,400 Speaker 1: I'm so glad that you asked this question because what 743 00:34:56,480 --> 00:34:58,239 Speaker 1: I've been seeing this has been actually why I'm just 744 00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:00,799 Speaker 1: seeing a bigger influx of this that somebody will say 745 00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:03,239 Speaker 1: something like I'm having this issue with a therapist and 746 00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:05,799 Speaker 1: I need some support, and they're saying, leave them, don't 747 00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:08,480 Speaker 1: go back, ghost them, they don't need to do anything, 748 00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:10,719 Speaker 1: don't tell enohing and find you a new therapist, get 749 00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:13,120 Speaker 1: back on the directory. And I'm just like, these are 750 00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:16,480 Speaker 1: things you can have a conversation about. Why not why 751 00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:18,799 Speaker 1: are we just ghost in therapist? Like what are we 752 00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:21,400 Speaker 1: doing what are we doing here? So I'm glad that 753 00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:23,440 Speaker 1: you're having a conversation about like what language can we 754 00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:25,560 Speaker 1: use to maybe better get our needs met? And then 755 00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:27,120 Speaker 1: we still use that as data to see if this 756 00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:29,880 Speaker 1: is a good a good working relationship. But you know, 757 00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:31,440 Speaker 1: I think there are a few different ways to do that. 758 00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:33,440 Speaker 1: I think one there's a way which you can offer 759 00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:35,960 Speaker 1: feedback on what you are experiencing and ask that to 760 00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:38,440 Speaker 1: be different. And two, I think you can ask for 761 00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:42,520 Speaker 1: what you want to experience instead. Right, So if I 762 00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:45,160 Speaker 1: if I might notice that a therapist is eating in sessions, 763 00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:47,480 Speaker 1: so I might feel really uncomfortable asking you not to eat, 764 00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:48,960 Speaker 1: but like, hey, is there a different time that we 765 00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:52,240 Speaker 1: can meet, like after like breakfast or like after something 766 00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:54,760 Speaker 1: like that? So that right, so there's a there's sometimes 767 00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:57,120 Speaker 1: a way in which you can say and really focus 768 00:35:57,200 --> 00:36:00,520 Speaker 1: is what you want to experience instead? If it feels 769 00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:02,640 Speaker 1: less comfortable kind of saying like I don't want you 770 00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:04,799 Speaker 1: to do this thing. I think another way, as Dr 771 00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:07,439 Speaker 1: Joy had shared, is being able to say, hey, I'd 772 00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:10,080 Speaker 1: like to have this experience. And sometimes I just I 773 00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:12,040 Speaker 1: get a little bit distracted when I notice you eating 774 00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:15,319 Speaker 1: in session. Right, So that's a way to clue into 775 00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:17,640 Speaker 1: them that, oh, that's having an impact on me, which 776 00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:20,239 Speaker 1: is not you telling them you shouldn't be eating. I 777 00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:22,480 Speaker 1: checked with therapist and as against the ethics code, and 778 00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:25,520 Speaker 1: you can't be doing that in here. But just affects 779 00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:28,439 Speaker 1: me in this way when I noticed this, or when 780 00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:31,640 Speaker 1: you're driving and moving around, I find myself getting distracted 781 00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:33,799 Speaker 1: by what I'm seeing, like behind the screen if you're 782 00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:36,400 Speaker 1: driving during our sessions, can we either have session at 783 00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:39,080 Speaker 1: a different time that's very different than the Sometimes we 784 00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:41,359 Speaker 1: can feel anxiety provoking is asking somebody to not do 785 00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:44,840 Speaker 1: a thing, and that's a whole other assertiveness training, but 786 00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:48,239 Speaker 1: really attuning to what's happening for you when those things 787 00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:50,920 Speaker 1: are happening right, and ideally your therapist would be listening 788 00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:53,480 Speaker 1: to something that's getting in the way of them being 789 00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:56,399 Speaker 1: able to focus, them being able to get vulnerable, then 790 00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:58,640 Speaker 1: being able to stay there, and ideally that could give 791 00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:02,120 Speaker 1: the therapist and feedback about what they can be doing. Differently, 792 00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:04,440 Speaker 1: I think you could have mentioned something like sleep, right, 793 00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:08,600 Speaker 1: so the therapist falling asleep is that's work, that's just 794 00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:11,000 Speaker 1: not going that's not gonna work. That is something that 795 00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:12,920 Speaker 1: that you can also say, like, hey, I've noticed that 796 00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:15,640 Speaker 1: this has happened the last few sessions that you have 797 00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:18,400 Speaker 1: fallen asleep, like midway through, like you fall asleep by 798 00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:21,400 Speaker 1: the end of sessions, and that begins making me feel 799 00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:24,200 Speaker 1: blank blank blank blank blank. Is this a good time 800 00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:26,080 Speaker 1: for us to still meet because I've noticed that you 801 00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:29,640 Speaker 1: were falling asleep, like really looking at the behavior versus 802 00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:32,960 Speaker 1: going into that's unethical, that's this, that's this right, but 803 00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:35,799 Speaker 1: this behavior leads me feeling this, and I don't want 804 00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:39,120 Speaker 1: to have that experience. Can we do something different? And 805 00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:40,640 Speaker 1: I think you can work yourself up to that. And 806 00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:43,120 Speaker 1: I also think, as Dr Joyce said, that being able 807 00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:45,840 Speaker 1: to put that out there, maybe in email or something 808 00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:47,920 Speaker 1: like that, in between the session can allow that to 809 00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:49,440 Speaker 1: come up the next week and then you can help 810 00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:52,319 Speaker 1: prepare yourself for having that conversation. But it doesn't mean 811 00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:54,000 Speaker 1: that you're silent about it. And it doesn't mean that 812 00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:57,600 Speaker 1: now you're reactively avoiding the therapy by not going or 813 00:37:57,640 --> 00:38:00,120 Speaker 1: by doing all this stuff instead versus letting them know, 814 00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:02,440 Speaker 1: and which I think is also a good general practice, 815 00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:04,640 Speaker 1: letting them know that something is happening that's getting in 816 00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:06,880 Speaker 1: the way of the relationship. They might not know. I 817 00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:09,160 Speaker 1: don't know how they wouldn't know about sleep and stuff, 818 00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:12,359 Speaker 1: but like they might not we don't know what's going 819 00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:13,520 Speaker 1: on with them, and you might get a lot more 820 00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:15,960 Speaker 1: information about sometimes what is going on with the therapist 821 00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:18,080 Speaker 1: if they're not intune enough to really realize that this 822 00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:20,359 Speaker 1: is having an impact on your care. But I think 823 00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:23,080 Speaker 1: things like that schedule latenist like things like that, like, hey, 824 00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:25,640 Speaker 1: I've noticed that we have sessions at this time, but 825 00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:28,000 Speaker 1: you tend to come twenty minutes and that really bumps 826 00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:30,040 Speaker 1: me up against the end of this and like, I 827 00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:32,360 Speaker 1: got something to do next. Can we make sure to 828 00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:34,319 Speaker 1: meet at eleven so that I can get to my 829 00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:37,399 Speaker 1: next thing, because it really like gets in the way 830 00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:38,880 Speaker 1: when we have to rush at the end of session 831 00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:41,719 Speaker 1: and d A. I think it goes back to what 832 00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:45,120 Speaker 1: we're talking about earlier two with the fit. Are you 833 00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:48,719 Speaker 1: advocating for what you need and by you sharing what 834 00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:51,600 Speaker 1: does and does not work for you, it also allows 835 00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:53,520 Speaker 1: you to see if this is a good fit for 836 00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:55,799 Speaker 1: you in terms of their response. You know, if you're 837 00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:58,719 Speaker 1: doing about oh, girls only eating because of X Y 838 00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:01,320 Speaker 1: and Z or oh I, oh, you know, it allows 839 00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:04,719 Speaker 1: them to correct the behavior, allows you to endure the 840 00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:07,400 Speaker 1: discomfort of kind of standing up and advocating for yourself 841 00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:09,520 Speaker 1: and this, you know, here's this person working with you. 842 00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:12,200 Speaker 1: But also if you don't get the response that you want, 843 00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:13,680 Speaker 1: you don't have to go. So there's so many other 844 00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:15,080 Speaker 1: ways you don't have to go, So you don't have 845 00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:17,880 Speaker 1: to go on the you know, the ethics board or whatever. 846 00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:19,719 Speaker 1: It's like, you really can say this is not a 847 00:39:19,719 --> 00:39:22,480 Speaker 1: good fit because you didn't feel hurt, you didn't feel understood, 848 00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:25,640 Speaker 1: and you also mentioned that it allows you to get 849 00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:28,160 Speaker 1: more information. I thought this was the only time that 850 00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:30,360 Speaker 1: worked for you at eleven o'clock and so you know, 851 00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:32,520 Speaker 1: I was running over. It just allows for both people 852 00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:34,600 Speaker 1: to see each other and to understand each other and 853 00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:36,600 Speaker 1: to see if we're still a good fit for each other. 854 00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:39,480 Speaker 1: And there's something really beautiful about Wow, I communicated my 855 00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:42,399 Speaker 1: needs and this shift was made. And look at us, 856 00:39:42,719 --> 00:39:45,000 Speaker 1: because we don't have to run, and we don't want 857 00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:47,799 Speaker 1: to run from every situation that does not feel like 858 00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:49,680 Speaker 1: a good fit for us or does not feel like 859 00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:51,560 Speaker 1: we are getting our needs met because we did not 860 00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:54,160 Speaker 1: communicate what those needs you know are, And I get 861 00:39:54,239 --> 00:39:56,000 Speaker 1: it there are certain things where we feel like you're 862 00:39:56,000 --> 00:39:58,200 Speaker 1: falling asleep. I don't know why I have to tell 863 00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:01,440 Speaker 1: you that that's not good, but there's something about saying, 864 00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:03,839 Speaker 1: I don't know if the five o'clock time is really late, 865 00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:05,560 Speaker 1: if it's at the end of your day, I do 866 00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:08,719 Speaker 1: notice that you seem a little bit fatigued, and it's 867 00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:11,520 Speaker 1: it possible that another time. That's a nice way. I 868 00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:14,120 Speaker 1: noticed that you you seem a little fatigued at the 869 00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:17,799 Speaker 1: end of your day. Yeah, And I like the way 870 00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:19,920 Speaker 1: that you both phrase that because I do think that 871 00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:23,400 Speaker 1: there is a fine line of the client doing some 872 00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:26,279 Speaker 1: caretaking in some ways by having to say, like, hey, 873 00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:28,799 Speaker 1: I noticed you look a little fatigued, and so I 874 00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:30,960 Speaker 1: think it is important to be careful and to know 875 00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:33,560 Speaker 1: that as the client, like you're not responsible for reminding 876 00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:35,360 Speaker 1: your therapist to take care of themselves or to do 877 00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:37,640 Speaker 1: what they need to do so that they can be present. 878 00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:40,120 Speaker 1: But I do think the way that you've talked about 879 00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:42,759 Speaker 1: it in terms of like advocating for your own needs, right, 880 00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:45,440 Speaker 1: like I noticed that I get distracted or it really 881 00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:48,040 Speaker 1: is a great practice and letting people know what you 882 00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:49,840 Speaker 1: need and like what kinds of things will help you 883 00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:53,000 Speaker 1: do the work you need to do. Yeah, And you 884 00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:56,040 Speaker 1: don't have to Yeah, absolutely, And I don't have to 885 00:40:56,120 --> 00:40:59,480 Speaker 1: like screaming from the mountaintop. I can just really clearly say, like, hey, 886 00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:01,879 Speaker 1: I need to be able to finish by this time, 887 00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:03,680 Speaker 1: and I know that we kind of start sometimes a 888 00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:05,840 Speaker 1: little bit late. Being able to advocate, I think it 889 00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:08,799 Speaker 1: strengthens that muscle. It strengthens that muscle. So then you're 890 00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:11,480 Speaker 1: moving from situation and situation and you're advocating for what 891 00:41:11,520 --> 00:41:14,600 Speaker 1: you need and getting your needs met. Yeah. And I'd 892 00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:17,760 Speaker 1: also recommend saying it sooner than later. Don't wait four times, 893 00:41:17,800 --> 00:41:20,920 Speaker 1: don't wait five times, because now you are past the 894 00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:23,800 Speaker 1: disappointment or confusion. Now you're resenting that this is happening. 895 00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:25,759 Speaker 1: Now it's affecting you even kind of starting and kind 896 00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:27,520 Speaker 1: of what you're thinking about before you go into session, 897 00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:29,680 Speaker 1: because this is on your mind that long. Right. It's 898 00:41:29,719 --> 00:41:31,760 Speaker 1: also a practice of a certainness. You can say things 899 00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:35,360 Speaker 1: soon right, so that YouTube can navigate the relationship and 900 00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:37,560 Speaker 1: it gives them a better chance of meeting your needs sooner, 901 00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:40,319 Speaker 1: before you start building a narrative that is not the 902 00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:43,000 Speaker 1: accurate one. You know, we start to think like oh well, 903 00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:45,240 Speaker 1: this means such and such and such and such because 904 00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:48,120 Speaker 1: you're eating, or because you're later, because you're driving, And 905 00:41:48,160 --> 00:41:50,000 Speaker 1: it's like, let's not do that. Let's not build a 906 00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:52,520 Speaker 1: narrative that doesn't sit well with you, that makes you 907 00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:55,520 Speaker 1: feel worse than you already feel. Allow them to correct 908 00:41:55,560 --> 00:41:58,200 Speaker 1: the behavior as soon as you start experiencing something that 909 00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:02,239 Speaker 1: doesn't work for you. Such beautiful sentiments. I feel like 910 00:42:02,239 --> 00:42:04,880 Speaker 1: we could definitely go longer on this conversation. There's so 911 00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:06,680 Speaker 1: much to chat about, but of course we don't have 912 00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:09,920 Speaker 1: all day, so please share with us where we can 913 00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:12,040 Speaker 1: stay connected with both of you if you love to 914 00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:14,600 Speaker 1: share your website as well as any social media handles 915 00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:18,360 Speaker 1: you'd like to share. Sure. My website is Ascension Behavioral 916 00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:21,640 Speaker 1: Health so www dot Ascension Behavioral Health dot com. And 917 00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:23,319 Speaker 1: as I always say, I run my mouth the most 918 00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:27,440 Speaker 1: on Instagram that is at doctor Underscore Ayanna Underscore A. 919 00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:30,799 Speaker 1: So it's at d R underscore A y A n 920 00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:35,040 Speaker 1: n A Underscore A. And then my Instagram is at 921 00:42:35,320 --> 00:42:38,440 Speaker 1: ask dr Joy that's a s K d R j 922 00:42:38,600 --> 00:42:42,160 Speaker 1: O Y. And my website, which is under construction but coming, 923 00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:45,759 Speaker 1: is www dr Joy Back with dot com. So it's 924 00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:48,640 Speaker 1: coming perfect well. We will be sure to include all 925 00:42:48,640 --> 00:42:50,560 Speaker 1: of that in the show knows. Thank you both so much. 926 00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:55,680 Speaker 1: I'm so glad Dr beck With and Dr Abrams were 927 00:42:55,680 --> 00:42:58,440 Speaker 1: able to share their expertise with us today. To learn 928 00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:00,960 Speaker 1: more about them and their work, be sure to visit 929 00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:03,319 Speaker 1: the show notes at Therapy for Black Girls dot com 930 00:43:03,400 --> 00:43:06,560 Speaker 1: slash session to fifty and be sure to text two 931 00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:08,560 Speaker 1: of your girls and ask them to check out the 932 00:43:08,600 --> 00:43:12,239 Speaker 1: episode right now. If you're looking for a therapist in 933 00:43:12,280 --> 00:43:15,279 Speaker 1: your area, be sure to check out our therapist directory 934 00:43:15,440 --> 00:43:18,799 Speaker 1: at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash directory. And 935 00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:21,440 Speaker 1: if you want to continue digging into this topic or 936 00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:24,279 Speaker 1: just be in community with other sisters, come on over 937 00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:26,920 Speaker 1: and join us in the sister Circle. It's our cozy 938 00:43:26,960 --> 00:43:29,960 Speaker 1: corn of the Internet design just for black women. You 939 00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:32,680 Speaker 1: can join us at community dot Therapy for Black Girls 940 00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:36,719 Speaker 1: dot com. This episode was produced by Freda Lucas and 941 00:43:36,760 --> 00:43:40,120 Speaker 1: Alice Ellis and editing was done by Dennis and Bradford. 942 00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:43,040 Speaker 1: Thank you all so much for joining me again this week. 943 00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:45,880 Speaker 1: I look forward to continue in this conversation with you 944 00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:48,520 Speaker 1: all real soon. Take you care