WEBVTT - Cynicism, Part 1 0:00:03.040 --> 0:00:06.760 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of iHeartRadio. 0:00:12.760 --> 0:00:14.480 Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 0:00:14.560 --> 0:00:17.600 My name is Robert Land, and I am Joe McCormick. 0:00:17.640 --> 0:00:20.840 And today we wanted to begin a series of episodes 0:00:20.880 --> 0:00:23.320 talking about something that has been on my mind a 0:00:23.400 --> 0:00:28.640 lot lately, and that is the concept of cynicism. Now, 0:00:28.680 --> 0:00:31.240 as we go on, we're going to have to distinguish 0:00:31.360 --> 0:00:35.479 the common contemporary usage of cynicism from other meanings extending 0:00:35.520 --> 0:00:39.839 into history, but as used in common language today. We 0:00:39.880 --> 0:00:44.600 can think of cynicism as a cognitive disposition, the core 0:00:44.680 --> 0:00:50.120 element of which is social distrust. Cynicism is a dim 0:00:50.400 --> 0:00:54.040 view of human nature. It's a suspicion of other people's 0:00:54.120 --> 0:00:57.920 motives and a tendency to believe that people are primarily 0:00:58.200 --> 0:01:03.320 self interested and un trustworthy. So there are a variety 0:01:03.360 --> 0:01:07.399 of kind of inventories or tests that psychological studies will 0:01:07.440 --> 0:01:10.160 do to evaluate how cynical you are as a person. 0:01:10.280 --> 0:01:12.679 They'll often give you like a list of statements to 0:01:12.680 --> 0:01:15.399 see how much you agree or disagree with them. A 0:01:15.440 --> 0:01:18.200 cynical person is going to be more likely to agree 0:01:18.240 --> 0:01:22.640 with statements like altruism and compassion are just for show 0:01:22.840 --> 0:01:24.760 when it comes down to it, people are in it 0:01:24.800 --> 0:01:28.360 for themselves. Everybody lies and cheats when they can get 0:01:28.400 --> 0:01:32.640 away with it, cliches like no good deed goes unpunished, 0:01:33.040 --> 0:01:36.800 it's a dog eat dog world, the idea that people 0:01:36.800 --> 0:01:39.640 are not sincere, they'll just tell you what you want 0:01:39.680 --> 0:01:42.240 to hear. And I think the core idea of it 0:01:42.280 --> 0:01:45.720 really is that you can't trust anybody. We're all on 0:01:45.760 --> 0:01:49.760 our own. And before we started today, I had been 0:01:49.800 --> 0:01:53.200 digging around trying to find good examples of the cynical 0:01:53.240 --> 0:01:58.600 worldview presented in works of English literature. And while you 0:01:58.640 --> 0:02:02.040 can find some pretty good examples, I think, particularly for 0:02:02.080 --> 0:02:05.920 some reason in like seventeenth and eighteenth century English literature 0:02:05.920 --> 0:02:08.680 with writers like Alexander Pope and Jonathan Swift, is some 0:02:08.760 --> 0:02:14.000 really hardcore cynical stuff there. I actually think the most 0:02:14.200 --> 0:02:19.880 cynical canon of great literature is in the Bible. So 0:02:20.040 --> 0:02:22.840 many books of the Bible, especially like the later books 0:02:22.880 --> 0:02:27.000 of the Tanakh, like the Prophets, have awesomely cynical passages. 0:02:27.880 --> 0:02:30.280 Can I offer you a few examples, Rob, Yes, let's 0:02:30.280 --> 0:02:34.119 hear it. Okay. Here's Micah chapter seven, verses two to six. 0:02:34.160 --> 0:02:37.360 This is the King James translation. The good man is 0:02:37.480 --> 0:02:40.080 perished out of the earth, and there is none upright 0:02:40.120 --> 0:02:43.520 among men. They all lie in wait for blood. They 0:02:43.600 --> 0:02:46.639 hunt every man his brother with a net, that they 0:02:46.680 --> 0:02:50.120 may do evil with both hands. Earnestly. The prince asketh, 0:02:50.480 --> 0:02:53.680 and the judge asketh for a reward, and the great 0:02:53.720 --> 0:02:57.399 man he uttereth his mischievous desire. So they wrap it up. 0:02:57.880 --> 0:03:00.520 The best of them is as a brier. The most 0:03:00.639 --> 0:03:03.640 upright is sharper than a thorn hedge. The day of 0:03:03.720 --> 0:03:07.960 thy watchmen and thy visitation cometh now shall be their perplexity. 0:03:08.440 --> 0:03:11.880 Trust ye not in a friend, Put ye not confidence 0:03:11.919 --> 0:03:14.640 in a guide. Keep the doors of thy mouth from 0:03:14.680 --> 0:03:17.959 her that lieth in thy bosom. For the son dishonoreth 0:03:18.040 --> 0:03:21.160 the father. The daughter riseth up against her mother, the 0:03:21.280 --> 0:03:24.080 daughter in law against her mother in law. A man's 0:03:24.160 --> 0:03:26.240 enemies are the men of his own house. 0:03:27.240 --> 0:03:30.280 Brutal, Yeah, if true, A sad state of affairs. 0:03:30.520 --> 0:03:33.560 Yeah, okay, I got a couple of more shorter ones. 0:03:33.840 --> 0:03:36.960 This is from Psalm fourteen, verses two to four. The 0:03:37.040 --> 0:03:39.800 Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, 0:03:40.160 --> 0:03:42.640 to see if there were any that did understand and 0:03:42.680 --> 0:03:46.520 seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all 0:03:46.680 --> 0:03:50.560 together become filthy. There is none that doeth good, no, 0:03:50.840 --> 0:03:55.120 not one. And then finally this one. I think some 0:03:55.240 --> 0:03:57.480 of the best poetry in the Bible is in the 0:03:57.480 --> 0:04:01.920 Book of Jeremiah. Jeremiah's like great, great writing, but it 0:04:01.960 --> 0:04:06.160 contains the famous statement from Jeremiah seventeen the heart is 0:04:06.240 --> 0:04:10.800 deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked. Who can know it? 0:04:12.800 --> 0:04:16.880 And these passages really emphasized something for me. I think 0:04:16.960 --> 0:04:20.400 I am not an especially cynical person. I think I'm 0:04:20.400 --> 0:04:23.160 not the least cynical person in the world, but I'm 0:04:23.600 --> 0:04:24.800 very far from the most. 0:04:24.920 --> 0:04:25.120 You know. 0:04:25.160 --> 0:04:28.839 I try to be skeptical of like sweeping negative characterizations 0:04:28.880 --> 0:04:33.320 about people and all that. And yet I notice that 0:04:33.440 --> 0:04:38.480 when a cynical condemnation of human nature is phrased really elegantly, 0:04:38.600 --> 0:04:41.039 as I think these are in the King James translation, 0:04:41.920 --> 0:04:47.320 they really takes mental effort to disagree with. So it 0:04:47.440 --> 0:04:50.880 is not my worldview that the heart is deceitful above 0:04:50.960 --> 0:04:53.960 all things. I don't think that's true. But I feel 0:04:54.000 --> 0:04:56.760 kind of foolish trying to shake my head or argue 0:04:56.760 --> 0:05:00.080 with that statement when it's phrased in that way, it 0:05:00.080 --> 0:05:04.479 possesses what feels like an a priori factuality. If you 0:05:04.600 --> 0:05:07.960 don't force yourself to stop and think about it, it 0:05:08.040 --> 0:05:11.320 just kind of hits you as self evidently true, and 0:05:11.360 --> 0:05:13.800 you feel like you'd have to be naive to doubt it. 0:05:13.839 --> 0:05:17.440 And yet it's not really what I think. So I 0:05:17.480 --> 0:05:19.760 don't know if you have a similar experience, Rob maybe not, 0:05:19.920 --> 0:05:21.760 but I wonder, at least for myself, and I think 0:05:21.800 --> 0:05:26.120 this is probably pretty common. Why do cynical condemnations, and 0:05:26.200 --> 0:05:29.880 especially when they're elegantly phrased, why do they like walk 0:05:29.960 --> 0:05:33.520 into my mind with a perfectly forged hall pass. Why 0:05:33.560 --> 0:05:37.400 does it take such effortful, deliberate scrutiny to repel them. 0:05:39.320 --> 0:05:42.320 Yeah, yeah, this is I think this is something that 0:05:42.400 --> 0:05:46.680 will come up again and again in this discussion, because yeah, 0:05:46.720 --> 0:05:50.360 it these kind of statements they either ring really true 0:05:51.440 --> 0:05:54.240 to you, and they ring true because you can take them, 0:05:54.320 --> 0:05:56.080 you can hold them up to the world and you 0:05:56.120 --> 0:05:59.080 can find examples. You know, you may be engaging in 0:05:59.080 --> 0:06:01.400 a certain amount of cherry picking, or just point them 0:06:01.400 --> 0:06:04.719 in the right general direction and you'll find evidence to 0:06:04.760 --> 0:06:09.120 support this. I think these statements can also feel rather cathartic, 0:06:10.000 --> 0:06:13.560 because whatever's going on in your life, in your world, 0:06:13.800 --> 0:06:17.200 in the like the media that you're consuming, you know 0:06:17.279 --> 0:06:20.599 there are going to be perceptions of this sort of 0:06:20.600 --> 0:06:24.799 thing going on, and it can feel empowering to hold 0:06:24.880 --> 0:06:28.320 up something that is sort of like an elegant takedown 0:06:28.960 --> 0:06:31.320 of what's going on and say, yeah, yeah, this is 0:06:31.440 --> 0:06:33.240 this is exactly what I see in the world, This 0:06:33.360 --> 0:06:36.400 is exactly what people's hearts are about. And you know, 0:06:36.440 --> 0:06:39.240 it may not even be something that you believe all 0:06:39.279 --> 0:06:42.680 the time, but it's kind of like, you know, sometimes 0:06:42.680 --> 0:06:44.920 you got to go there. And in the same sense 0:06:44.960 --> 0:06:47.120 that you might not listen to sad breakup songs all 0:06:47.120 --> 0:06:49.320 the time, but there are times when you definitely need 0:06:49.360 --> 0:06:50.799 to listen to a sad breakup song. 0:06:51.080 --> 0:06:53.400 Rob, I think that's a really good point. I didn't 0:06:53.480 --> 0:06:57.159 quite think about that, But the catharsis element that's exactly right. 0:06:57.240 --> 0:07:02.080 It does describe the experience of either saying or agreeing 0:07:02.200 --> 0:07:05.679 with a really cynical statement. It feels like blowing off steam. 0:07:05.920 --> 0:07:09.440 There's like a kind of relief that comes with expressing 0:07:09.520 --> 0:07:13.760 that that just total condemnation and lack of trust in 0:07:13.840 --> 0:07:14.520 human nature. 0:07:15.320 --> 0:07:17.400 Yeah, you know, sometimes you've got to crank up the 0:07:17.520 --> 0:07:19.720 rage against the machine in the car. It doesn't mean 0:07:19.720 --> 0:07:22.840 that you necessarily feel that all the time, but sometimes 0:07:22.840 --> 0:07:23.520 you've got to do it. 0:07:23.920 --> 0:07:27.040 Now, coming back to like the definitions of cynicism, I 0:07:27.040 --> 0:07:30.080 think one thing that's important to flag at the top 0:07:30.160 --> 0:07:34.120 here is like that cynicism is used kind of loosely, 0:07:34.360 --> 0:07:37.600 and sometimes it's used to mean different things. We're going 0:07:37.680 --> 0:07:40.800 to be trying in this series to focus on the 0:07:40.920 --> 0:07:43.360 use of cynicism as like this dim view of human 0:07:43.440 --> 0:07:46.280 nature and lack of trust in others, But I would 0:07:46.320 --> 0:07:52.040 say less often. Cynicism is also used interchangeably with pessimism, 0:07:52.920 --> 0:07:55.960 the belief that things will go poorly or that the 0:07:56.000 --> 0:07:58.840 future will be bad. I think we should just note 0:07:58.840 --> 0:08:02.960 for our purposes these are different concepts. Pessimism is more 0:08:03.000 --> 0:08:06.640 of an outlook on reality and all of life, all 0:08:06.720 --> 0:08:12.440 future prospects. So this would include you know, low expectations 0:08:12.480 --> 0:08:16.600 for random events so called acts of God, and for 0:08:16.880 --> 0:08:19.680 our own ability to do as we would hope. You know, 0:08:19.720 --> 0:08:24.080 that's pessimism, whereas you might think of cynicism as pessimism 0:08:24.280 --> 0:08:29.080 applied specifically to other people. Other people will always let 0:08:29.120 --> 0:08:31.640 you down, they'll stab you in the back. They're only 0:08:31.680 --> 0:08:32.800 in it for themselves. 0:08:33.640 --> 0:08:36.520 Yeah, it got me thinking about the saying, don't hate 0:08:36.520 --> 0:08:39.360 the player, hate the game. Your modern cynic definitely hates 0:08:39.400 --> 0:08:43.880 the players, or at least sees them as the underlying problem. 0:08:44.200 --> 0:08:46.600 You know. It'd also add that cynicism can also easily 0:08:46.600 --> 0:08:50.680 bleed over into downright nihilism. Though that's not to say 0:08:50.679 --> 0:08:54.000 that modern cynicism isn't compatible with different philosophies and creeds, 0:08:54.360 --> 0:08:56.560 because you could be a cynic and a hedonist at 0:08:56.559 --> 0:08:59.080 the same time. Certainly, I don't know that you'd bea 0:08:59.080 --> 0:09:01.560 trementdu is fun to hang out with, but you know 0:09:02.160 --> 0:09:02.960 it is possible. 0:09:03.640 --> 0:09:05.840 Now, what does it mean to say a person is 0:09:06.320 --> 0:09:10.040 cynical in a way that is subjective? Because cynicism is, 0:09:10.280 --> 0:09:13.640 by its nature a comparative idea or sort of expression 0:09:13.679 --> 0:09:18.200 of degree. I would compare being cynical to being tall. 0:09:18.760 --> 0:09:21.720 You know, there's no height at which a person becomes 0:09:21.760 --> 0:09:25.240 objectively tall. People judge whether you're tall or not based 0:09:25.280 --> 0:09:27.360 on the context. You know, they compare you to people 0:09:27.360 --> 0:09:29.839 around you, or to other people in the culture where 0:09:29.880 --> 0:09:32.839 you live, or other people in the room. And then, 0:09:32.880 --> 0:09:36.040 on the other hand, while there's no objective cutoff point, 0:09:36.360 --> 0:09:39.760 somebody who's like seven foot three is pretty much always 0:09:39.800 --> 0:09:42.600 going to be considered tall, no matter what context they're in. 0:09:42.960 --> 0:09:45.080 And I think being cynical is like that. It's a 0:09:45.080 --> 0:09:48.680 comparative idea. There's no threshold score of social trust, and 0:09:48.720 --> 0:09:52.040 if you fall below that score, you're objectively cynical. But 0:09:52.160 --> 0:09:54.840 there are some people who are so cynical that basically 0:09:54.880 --> 0:09:57.200 everybody's going to think of them as a cynical person. 0:09:57.480 --> 0:09:59.880 Yeah, And then of course it also depends on how 0:10:00.040 --> 0:10:02.280 well you know that person as well, right, Because if 0:10:02.320 --> 0:10:04.439 all you know about a person is one cynical thing 0:10:04.480 --> 0:10:06.800 they said, you might be like, oh, well, that person's 0:10:06.840 --> 0:10:10.320 really cynical. But maybe they're not that way all the time. 0:10:10.360 --> 0:10:11.600 You know. It kind of gets into the way we 0:10:11.640 --> 0:10:14.200 sometimes use the term, right. We say like I hate 0:10:14.200 --> 0:10:17.400 to be cynical, but or you might call somebody out 0:10:17.400 --> 0:10:19.040 and be like, I think you're being a little cynical 0:10:19.040 --> 0:10:24.040 about this. You know, in those usages acknowledge the fact 0:10:24.160 --> 0:10:27.880 that it's not necessarily a constant. It maybe something that 0:10:27.920 --> 0:10:32.840 we dip into in response to different circumstances, different stimuli 0:10:32.880 --> 0:10:33.439 and so forth. 0:10:33.800 --> 0:10:35.680 That's right, that's a really good point. So, like a 0:10:35.679 --> 0:10:38.280 lot of things in personality, you can think of cynicism 0:10:38.280 --> 0:10:41.240 as a kind of it's a tendency. You know, you 0:10:41.320 --> 0:10:44.640 might be you're more kind of pointed in one general 0:10:44.720 --> 0:10:48.079 direction of interpretation, but it's not going to dictate that 0:10:48.600 --> 0:10:51.240 every single moment of your life and every single thought 0:10:51.320 --> 0:10:52.880 you have is exactly the same. 0:10:53.440 --> 0:10:54.040 Yeah. 0:10:54.240 --> 0:10:56.720 So, when we're trying to judge is a person cynical? 0:10:57.000 --> 0:10:59.800 I think there are two main comparative ideas we use there. 0:10:59.840 --> 0:11:01.720 One is what I was just talking about, like how 0:11:01.760 --> 0:11:04.959 cynical is that person compared to other people, like compared 0:11:04.960 --> 0:11:08.160 to the average of their peers. If they show less 0:11:08.200 --> 0:11:10.360 social trusts than the people around them, we think of 0:11:10.360 --> 0:11:13.920 them as cynical. But then there's a second metric that 0:11:14.000 --> 0:11:17.360 I think people use, and that is how cynical a 0:11:17.400 --> 0:11:21.840 person is compared to how cynical we, the people judging, 0:11:22.080 --> 0:11:23.880 think it is reasonable to be. 0:11:24.760 --> 0:11:27.160 Yeah, we generally assume we've got it figured out. We're 0:11:27.200 --> 0:11:27.960 at the right level. 0:11:28.120 --> 0:11:30.880 We're at the right level, and anybody who's more cynical 0:11:30.960 --> 0:11:34.600 than us is too cynical. Somebody less cynical is naive, 0:11:36.040 --> 0:11:41.079 And this creates interesting levels of complexity, Like obviously, sometimes 0:11:41.160 --> 0:11:44.920 it is reasonable to be suspicious of someone's motives and 0:11:44.960 --> 0:11:47.080 to believe they will probably harm you if they can. 0:11:47.840 --> 0:11:51.199 Here's a common but relatively benign example, and not getting 0:11:51.240 --> 0:11:54.319 into like, you know, deep acts of harm against people. 0:11:55.200 --> 0:11:58.480 You should not walk into a car lot expecting that 0:11:58.559 --> 0:12:01.600 the salesperson and the finance it's manager are trying to 0:12:01.679 --> 0:12:04.240 help you out and get you the best deal they can. 0:12:05.000 --> 0:12:09.439 Maybe in some scenarios you'll find an extraordinarily unusually altruistic 0:12:09.679 --> 0:12:12.040 car dealer, But a lot of the time, what they're 0:12:12.040 --> 0:12:14.200 trying to do is make as much money off of 0:12:14.240 --> 0:12:17.480 you as possible, which is not in your interest. And 0:12:17.520 --> 0:12:20.920 that's not to suggest that people selling cars are like evil. 0:12:21.200 --> 0:12:23.600 It's just it's their job to try to make money 0:12:23.600 --> 0:12:26.080 selling cars. If they can make more on a sale 0:12:26.120 --> 0:12:28.320 and you get you to buy at a higher price 0:12:28.480 --> 0:12:33.920 or to take a less favorable financing option, they usually will. 0:12:34.520 --> 0:12:37.120 And I think this is true, And yet I think 0:12:37.120 --> 0:12:39.640 I'm not a very cynical person to make that judgment 0:12:39.679 --> 0:12:42.960 about what happens at car lots. There are just specific 0:12:43.000 --> 0:12:46.280 situations where it is reasonable, based on evidence and on 0:12:46.320 --> 0:12:50.560 our background knowledge, to withhold trust from people, and this 0:12:50.679 --> 0:12:54.520 is different, I think, from a generalized cynical distrust that 0:12:54.640 --> 0:12:58.840 is not related to the specific situation. Now, of course, 0:12:58.840 --> 0:13:02.000 what I think I just said is pretty uncontroversial in principle, 0:13:02.040 --> 0:13:05.600 but we actually spend a lot of mental energy trying 0:13:05.640 --> 0:13:08.920 to tell the difference between these two things, like the 0:13:09.000 --> 0:13:14.079 situation where it's reasonable to be suspicious and the situation 0:13:14.120 --> 0:13:17.839 where you're just expressing a bias towards cynicism. Like if 0:13:17.880 --> 0:13:22.640 a friend comes to you and expresses distrust of something 0:13:22.840 --> 0:13:26.199 or someone that you personally put a lot of faith in, 0:13:26.720 --> 0:13:29.400 what's the most common defensive reaction for us to have. 0:13:29.480 --> 0:13:32.280 I think it's like, don't be so cynical, or you're 0:13:32.320 --> 0:13:37.120 just being cynical. Saying you're just being cynical downplays the 0:13:37.160 --> 0:13:41.200 possibility that your doubting friend has a good insight, you know, 0:13:41.280 --> 0:13:44.720 maybe that I have misplaced my faith and trust in something, 0:13:45.240 --> 0:13:49.680 and instead it reframes the doubting friends' skepticism as part 0:13:49.720 --> 0:13:54.440 of a general dispositional bias that they have. So dealing 0:13:54.480 --> 0:13:57.640 with the balance between cynicism and reasonable suspicion is just 0:13:57.760 --> 0:14:00.400 a really difficult thing that I think we all have 0:14:00.440 --> 0:14:04.120 to deal with in our lives. We're asking the question like, 0:14:04.240 --> 0:14:08.920 in general, how suspicious should we be of other people's motives? 0:14:09.400 --> 0:14:14.440 And let's say you take generally cynical people and generally 0:14:14.480 --> 0:14:20.080 trusting people, which groups model of the world makes more 0:14:20.120 --> 0:14:23.280 accurate predictions, which group's model of the world is more 0:14:23.440 --> 0:14:27.240 useful in life, and in which context does each model 0:14:27.320 --> 0:14:30.400 thrive the most. I think we'll have to revisit that 0:14:30.520 --> 0:14:31.720 question as we go along. 0:14:32.480 --> 0:14:36.200 Yeah, yeah, I mean it's always in short, it's a 0:14:36.200 --> 0:14:39.240 careful balance, right, because do you want to protect yourself 0:14:39.280 --> 0:14:42.160 absolutely all the time from all things, or do you 0:14:42.200 --> 0:14:44.400 want to be able to move through life and open 0:14:44.440 --> 0:14:46.800 yourself up to new possibilities that may in fact hurt you. 0:14:47.640 --> 0:14:49.480 It always things like this will always remind me of 0:14:49.520 --> 0:14:53.960 that C. S. Lewis quote about being afraid to love 0:14:54.400 --> 0:14:57.440 because being because you're afraid that you will be hurt 0:14:57.720 --> 0:14:59.880 through that love, either of you know, be a lot 0:15:00.240 --> 0:15:03.160 or some other action. And therefore I think the analogy 0:15:03.320 --> 0:15:06.440 made was like, you know, entombing yourself, you know, putting 0:15:06.440 --> 0:15:09.360 yourself in a casket of loneliness, and I think some 0:15:09.440 --> 0:15:10.480 of that applies here. 0:15:10.800 --> 0:15:11.840 Yeah, yeah, totally. 0:15:21.680 --> 0:15:24.000 Now I do have to acknowledge that. Yeah, dealing with 0:15:24.160 --> 0:15:29.240 cynicism in people can certainly be exhausting, you know. Like 0:15:29.280 --> 0:15:32.320 we've been saying, the cynic, like the pessimist, tends toward 0:15:32.560 --> 0:15:36.560 type one errors in cognition, false positives, believing that the 0:15:36.560 --> 0:15:39.880 predator alerks in the bushes even when it doesn't. And 0:15:40.480 --> 0:15:43.520 there is always, again, an ample evidence for the cynic 0:15:43.640 --> 0:15:47.160 exhaustive evidence. Even because they are not wrong about many 0:15:47.320 --> 0:15:51.200 generalities about our world and human nature, they tend to 0:15:51.200 --> 0:15:54.880 put others on the defensive, forcing them to make non 0:15:54.960 --> 0:15:59.400 cynical counter arguments, you know, essentially prove the righteousness of 0:15:59.680 --> 0:16:04.360 their all of human beings. Yeah, and at the same time, 0:16:04.400 --> 0:16:06.560 in making those counter arguments, you don't want to go 0:16:07.080 --> 0:16:11.440 so far as to dismiss the perceived threats or threats entirely, 0:16:11.480 --> 0:16:13.360 because then they're going to come back at you with 0:16:13.440 --> 0:16:14.480 while you're being naive. 0:16:14.960 --> 0:16:17.240 This connects to what I was saying earlier, Like, again, 0:16:17.360 --> 0:16:20.120 I think I'm not very cynical, but I feel kind 0:16:20.160 --> 0:16:23.040 of silly or foolish if I try to argue with 0:16:23.120 --> 0:16:25.840 somebody who says the heart is deceitful above all things. 0:16:26.360 --> 0:16:28.240 It's like, I don't know it has a kind of 0:16:29.160 --> 0:16:31.480 it has a kind of power because, as you were saying, 0:16:31.640 --> 0:16:36.160 the cherry picking really works in its favor. You can 0:16:36.240 --> 0:16:39.200 always think of examples when which you were wrong to 0:16:39.280 --> 0:16:42.520 grant trust, but that if you think about it logically, 0:16:42.520 --> 0:16:46.120 that doesn't actually mean you should always withhold trust. It's 0:16:46.160 --> 0:16:50.440 just like it's very captivating those specific examples of when 0:16:50.600 --> 0:16:51.560 it went wrong for you. 0:16:52.120 --> 0:16:54.360 I was thinking about this as well over the weekend. 0:16:54.400 --> 0:16:57.560 I was doing a bit of driving, and driving is 0:16:58.240 --> 0:17:00.560 sort of a you know, it's a limited, sort of 0:17:00.680 --> 0:17:05.280 artificial in some ways, like social scenario, and it's probably 0:17:05.320 --> 0:17:08.760 a scenario where like I'm more cynical when I'm driving, 0:17:09.440 --> 0:17:12.640 but in that I am less trusting of the other drivers, 0:17:13.119 --> 0:17:15.440 and I'm not that I'm necessarily believing that they're out 0:17:15.480 --> 0:17:17.840 to hurt me, but I maybe am more inclined to 0:17:17.880 --> 0:17:21.400 believe that they are not looking out for me, and 0:17:21.440 --> 0:17:25.040 they're maybe being a little greedy there and they might 0:17:25.080 --> 0:17:27.760 not see me and so forth. But I guess the 0:17:27.880 --> 0:17:31.080 danger would be taking cynicism from an environment like that 0:17:31.320 --> 0:17:35.879 where it is maybe you know, low risk to engage 0:17:35.880 --> 0:17:38.840 in such cynicism, To take that feeling off the road 0:17:38.880 --> 0:17:41.000 and into the real world. I could see where that 0:17:41.040 --> 0:17:42.000 could be kind of hurtful. 0:17:42.240 --> 0:17:46.560 Yeah, you take your defensive driving mentality and apply it 0:17:46.600 --> 0:17:50.439 to your friend and family relationships and to politics and 0:17:50.480 --> 0:17:53.520 to everything else in your life. Yeah, not a good idea, 0:17:53.560 --> 0:17:54.760 I would argue. Yes. 0:17:56.240 --> 0:18:00.920 Now, another huge problem about regarding mod and cynicism, this 0:18:00.960 --> 0:18:03.439 is something we'll come back to again and again, is 0:18:03.440 --> 0:18:06.520 that it's often pointed out that it generally fosters a 0:18:06.640 --> 0:18:11.719 worldview in which no progress is possible. So again not 0:18:11.760 --> 0:18:14.600 just talking about engaging in little feelings of cynicism now 0:18:14.640 --> 0:18:17.240 and then like if the cynicism really piles up, and 0:18:17.280 --> 0:18:20.040 if you really double down on your cynicism, then there's 0:18:20.240 --> 0:18:23.840 no reason to try for or aspire for anything, you know, 0:18:23.920 --> 0:18:27.520 because like if people are all bad essentially, if people 0:18:27.560 --> 0:18:29.800 are all just in it for themselves, they're just greedy, 0:18:29.920 --> 0:18:34.240 there's no caring. Then what can we do as a society, 0:18:34.320 --> 0:18:36.960 What is it all possible? And you just kind of 0:18:37.000 --> 0:18:39.879 become fossilized in the mud of your own distrust. 0:18:40.280 --> 0:18:42.720 I think that's exactly right. In fact, this link you're 0:18:42.760 --> 0:18:46.879 suggesting between cynicism and inaction or lack of progress is 0:18:47.359 --> 0:18:50.480 absolutely backed up by evidence. We might get more into 0:18:50.520 --> 0:18:52.560 the details of these studies later, but I've been looking 0:18:52.600 --> 0:18:56.520 at studies that have found cynicism tends to cause people 0:18:56.600 --> 0:19:01.520 to skip opportunities to cooperate to achieve goals. It tends 0:19:01.560 --> 0:19:05.280 to people high in cynicism tend to hold back from 0:19:05.320 --> 0:19:09.320 involvement in the political process, not voting, not protesting, not 0:19:09.400 --> 0:19:11.920 signing a petition, even if they care about an issue. 0:19:12.640 --> 0:19:15.919 And it just seems like if you're higher in cynicism, 0:19:16.000 --> 0:19:19.040 you are less likely to try to make things better 0:19:19.119 --> 0:19:20.640 and more likely to give up. 0:19:21.200 --> 0:19:24.080 I want to read a quote here from Asgar Allen, 0:19:24.440 --> 0:19:28.760 author of the MIT Press Essential Knowledge series book Cynicism, 0:19:29.200 --> 0:19:31.960 which deals, as I'll discuss and as I cite this 0:19:32.000 --> 0:19:35.600 book again with both ancient cynicism and modern cynicism. More 0:19:35.640 --> 0:19:38.200 on that in a bit, but he writes quote as 0:19:38.200 --> 0:19:44.080 a cultural disposition, cynicism foments distrust, derails progress, and reduces 0:19:44.119 --> 0:19:47.480 all higher things, all that is good about humankind, to 0:19:47.560 --> 0:19:51.359 the level of its own diminished outlook. It assumes that 0:19:51.400 --> 0:19:55.520 all human motives are basically selfish and denies the possibility 0:19:55.600 --> 0:19:56.639 of a better world. 0:19:57.240 --> 0:20:00.720 Yeah, I think that's true. Despite the persuasive power of cynicism. 0:20:00.760 --> 0:20:03.359 As I mentioned earlier, I think that is correct at 0:20:03.400 --> 0:20:05.720 the level of my personal experience, and that seems borne 0:20:05.720 --> 0:20:07.480 out by experimental evidence as well. 0:20:08.000 --> 0:20:11.600 Yeah. Yeah, And I'll also add that in the book 0:20:11.760 --> 0:20:13.639 he stresses that, you know, while we can all point 0:20:13.640 --> 0:20:17.320 out just you know, egregious examples of cynicism in the 0:20:17.320 --> 0:20:21.679 world around us, we're also just all infected by cynicism. 0:20:21.920 --> 0:20:24.080 Like it's not just a world of cynics and non 0:20:24.119 --> 0:20:28.159 cynics for the most part, And he cites common sayings 0:20:28.200 --> 0:20:31.280 like I hate to be cynical, but and so forth, 0:20:31.320 --> 0:20:33.280 like we were talking, but you know, points out that 0:20:33.280 --> 0:20:36.600 cynicism is pretty much in all of us, festering to 0:20:36.760 --> 0:20:40.080 various degrees and very much takes on the form of 0:20:40.080 --> 0:20:43.280 an affliction. It may dominate, it may go into remission, 0:20:43.600 --> 0:20:46.600 it may flare up due to various and environmental factors. 0:20:46.880 --> 0:20:50.040 But it is there, absolutely, Yeah, which raises the good 0:20:50.080 --> 0:20:53.399 question of if it's there latently to some degree in 0:20:53.440 --> 0:20:56.960 all of us, and in some cases for quite understandable reasons, 0:20:57.880 --> 0:21:00.560 what brings it out, what makes it grow, and maybe 0:21:00.560 --> 0:21:02.600 what can diminish it. Now, I guess we'll have to 0:21:02.640 --> 0:21:05.159 come back to that because one thing that we definitely 0:21:05.200 --> 0:21:08.479 should address here is it gets a little confusing when 0:21:08.520 --> 0:21:12.680 you're trying to look up research on cynicism, because cynicism 0:21:13.720 --> 0:21:16.640 is a word that is used to mean at least 0:21:16.680 --> 0:21:21.240 two completely different things. There is a school of classical 0:21:21.240 --> 0:21:26.000 Greek philosophy called cynicism, which is not merely social distrust. 0:21:26.560 --> 0:21:29.840 It's a whole school of thought that entails different things. Rob, 0:21:29.880 --> 0:21:31.639 I think you're about to get into it in a second, 0:21:31.640 --> 0:21:35.199 but these two cynicisms are totally different. And it was 0:21:35.520 --> 0:21:38.600 a kind of an interesting question to me to wonder 0:21:39.000 --> 0:21:41.760 how the same word came to be used for these 0:21:41.800 --> 0:21:42.880 two different things. 0:21:43.400 --> 0:21:46.720 Yeah, it's one of those things where it's complicated. We're 0:21:46.760 --> 0:21:52.959 dealing with centuries upon centuries of human history with different 0:21:53.040 --> 0:21:56.280 returns to ancient cynicism and so forth. You know, it's 0:21:57.240 --> 0:21:59.960 not quite a scenario that you might encounter with movie 0:22:00.040 --> 0:22:02.000 titles where you're like, Okay, well there's the Peter Lorie 0:22:02.040 --> 0:22:05.879 Madlove movie and then there's the the nineties television series 0:22:05.920 --> 0:22:07.800 Mad Love, and these are not connected at all. They 0:22:07.880 --> 0:22:11.520 just share a title. There's there's more connective tissue here, 0:22:11.640 --> 0:22:15.199 but it but it is I think also completely correct 0:22:15.200 --> 0:22:19.320 to say you're dealing with two different things. They don't 0:22:19.359 --> 0:22:21.399 line up on a lot of their principles, even if 0:22:21.440 --> 0:22:23.560 there is ultimately some shared history there. 0:22:23.800 --> 0:22:27.200 So what's the rundown on capital C cynicism or cynic philosophy. 0:22:28.000 --> 0:22:32.560 Yeah, So in the book Cynicism, Alan gets into this 0:22:32.720 --> 0:22:37.360 a bit and he refers to like the broader transitionary 0:22:37.440 --> 0:22:43.080 matter as capital C slash lower C cynicism. So it's 0:22:43.119 --> 0:22:45.919