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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind.

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Speaker 3: My name is Robert Land, and I am Joe McCormick.

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Speaker 3: And today we wanted to begin a series of episodes

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Speaker 3: talking about something that has been on my mind a

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Speaker 3: lot lately, and that is the concept of cynicism. Now,

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Speaker 3: as we go on, we're going to have to distinguish

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Speaker 3: the common contemporary usage of cynicism from other meanings extending

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Speaker 3: into history, but as used in common language today. We

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Speaker 3: can think of cynicism as a cognitive disposition, the core

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Speaker 3: element of which is social distrust. Cynicism is a dim

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Speaker 3: view of human nature. It's a suspicion of other people's

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Speaker 3: motives and a tendency to believe that people are primarily

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Speaker 3: self interested and un trustworthy. So there are a variety

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Speaker 3: of kind of inventories or tests that psychological studies will

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Speaker 3: do to evaluate how cynical you are as a person.

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Speaker 3: They'll often give you like a list of statements to

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Speaker 3: see how much you agree or disagree with them. A

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Speaker 3: cynical person is going to be more likely to agree

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Speaker 3: with statements like altruism and compassion are just for show

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Speaker 3: when it comes down to it, people are in it

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Speaker 3: for themselves. Everybody lies and cheats when they can get

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Speaker 3: away with it, cliches like no good deed goes unpunished,

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Speaker 3: it's a dog eat dog world, the idea that people

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Speaker 3: are not sincere, they'll just tell you what you want

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Speaker 3: to hear. And I think the core idea of it

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Speaker 3: really is that you can't trust anybody. We're all on

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Speaker 3: our own. And before we started today, I had been

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Speaker 3: digging around trying to find good examples of the cynical

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Speaker 3: worldview presented in works of English literature. And while you

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Speaker 3: can find some pretty good examples, I think, particularly for

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Speaker 3: some reason in like seventeenth and eighteenth century English literature

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Speaker 3: with writers like Alexander Pope and Jonathan Swift, is some

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Speaker 3: really hardcore cynical stuff there. I actually think the most

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Speaker 3: cynical canon of great literature is in the Bible. So

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Speaker 3: many books of the Bible, especially like the later books

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Speaker 3: of the Tanakh, like the Prophets, have awesomely cynical passages.

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Speaker 3: Can I offer you a few examples, Rob, Yes, let's

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Speaker 3: hear it. Okay. Here's Micah chapter seven, verses two to six.

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Speaker 3: This is the King James translation. The good man is

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Speaker 3: perished out of the earth, and there is none upright

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Speaker 3: among men. They all lie in wait for blood. They

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Speaker 3: hunt every man his brother with a net, that they

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Speaker 3: may do evil with both hands. Earnestly. The prince asketh,

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Speaker 3: and the judge asketh for a reward, and the great

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Speaker 3: man he uttereth his mischievous desire. So they wrap it up.

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Speaker 3: The best of them is as a brier. The most

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Speaker 3: upright is sharper than a thorn hedge. The day of

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Speaker 3: thy watchmen and thy visitation cometh now shall be their perplexity.

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Speaker 3: Trust ye not in a friend, Put ye not confidence

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Speaker 3: in a guide. Keep the doors of thy mouth from

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Speaker 3: her that lieth in thy bosom. For the son dishonoreth

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Speaker 3: the father. The daughter riseth up against her mother, the

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Speaker 3: daughter in law against her mother in law. A man's

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Speaker 3: enemies are the men of his own house.

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Speaker 2: Brutal, Yeah, if true, A sad state of affairs.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, I got a couple of more shorter ones.

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Speaker 3: This is from Psalm fourteen, verses two to four. The

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Speaker 3: Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men,

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Speaker 3: to see if there were any that did understand and

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Speaker 3: seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all

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Speaker 3: together become filthy. There is none that doeth good, no,

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Speaker 3: not one. And then finally this one. I think some

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Speaker 3: of the best poetry in the Bible is in the

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Speaker 3: Book of Jeremiah. Jeremiah's like great, great writing, but it

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Speaker 3: contains the famous statement from Jeremiah seventeen the heart is

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Speaker 3: deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked. Who can know it?

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Speaker 3: And these passages really emphasized something for me. I think

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Speaker 3: I am not an especially cynical person. I think I'm

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Speaker 3: not the least cynical person in the world, but I'm

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Speaker 3: very far from the most.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 3: I try to be skeptical of like sweeping negative characterizations

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Speaker 3: about people and all that. And yet I notice that

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Speaker 3: when a cynical condemnation of human nature is phrased really elegantly,

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Speaker 3: as I think these are in the King James translation,

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Speaker 3: they really takes mental effort to disagree with. So it

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Speaker 3: is not my worldview that the heart is deceitful above

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Speaker 3: all things. I don't think that's true. But I feel

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Speaker 3: kind of foolish trying to shake my head or argue

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Speaker 3: with that statement when it's phrased in that way, it

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Speaker 3: possesses what feels like an a priori factuality. If you

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Speaker 3: don't force yourself to stop and think about it, it

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Speaker 3: just kind of hits you as self evidently true, and

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Speaker 3: you feel like you'd have to be naive to doubt it.

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Speaker 3: And yet it's not really what I think. So I

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Speaker 3: don't know if you have a similar experience, Rob maybe not,

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Speaker 3: but I wonder, at least for myself, and I think

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Speaker 3: this is probably pretty common. Why do cynical condemnations, and

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Speaker 3: especially when they're elegantly phrased, why do they like walk

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Speaker 3: into my mind with a perfectly forged hall pass. Why

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Speaker 3: does it take such effortful, deliberate scrutiny to repel them.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, this is I think this is something that

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Speaker 2: will come up again and again in this discussion, because yeah,

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Speaker 2: it these kind of statements they either ring really true

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Speaker 2: to you, and they ring true because you can take them,

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Speaker 2: you can hold them up to the world and you

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Speaker 2: can find examples. You know, you may be engaging in

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Speaker 2: a certain amount of cherry picking, or just point them

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Speaker 2: in the right general direction and you'll find evidence to

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Speaker 2: support this. I think these statements can also feel rather cathartic,

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Speaker 2: because whatever's going on in your life, in your world,

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Speaker 2: in the like the media that you're consuming, you know

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Speaker 2: there are going to be perceptions of this sort of

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Speaker 2: thing going on, and it can feel empowering to hold

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Speaker 2: up something that is sort of like an elegant takedown

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Speaker 2: of what's going on and say, yeah, yeah, this is

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Speaker 2: this is exactly what I see in the world, This

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Speaker 2: is exactly what people's hearts are about. And you know,

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Speaker 2: it may not even be something that you believe all

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Speaker 2: the time, but it's kind of like, you know, sometimes

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Speaker 2: you got to go there. And in the same sense

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Speaker 2: that you might not listen to sad breakup songs all

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Speaker 2: the time, but there are times when you definitely need

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Speaker 2: to listen to a sad breakup song.

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Speaker 3: Rob, I think that's a really good point. I didn't

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Speaker 3: quite think about that, But the catharsis element that's exactly right.

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Speaker 3: It does describe the experience of either saying or agreeing

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Speaker 3: with a really cynical statement. It feels like blowing off steam.

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Speaker 3: There's like a kind of relief that comes with expressing

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Speaker 3: that that just total condemnation and lack of trust in

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Speaker 3: human nature.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, sometimes you've got to crank up the

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Speaker 2: rage against the machine in the car. It doesn't mean

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Speaker 2: that you necessarily feel that all the time, but sometimes

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Speaker 2: you've got to do it.

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Speaker 3: Now, coming back to like the definitions of cynicism, I

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Speaker 3: think one thing that's important to flag at the top

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Speaker 3: here is like that cynicism is used kind of loosely,

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Speaker 3: and sometimes it's used to mean different things. We're going

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Speaker 3: to be trying in this series to focus on the

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Speaker 3: use of cynicism as like this dim view of human

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Speaker 3: nature and lack of trust in others, But I would

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Speaker 3: say less often. Cynicism is also used interchangeably with pessimism,

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Speaker 3: the belief that things will go poorly or that the

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Speaker 3: future will be bad. I think we should just note

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Speaker 3: for our purposes these are different concepts. Pessimism is more

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Speaker 3: of an outlook on reality and all of life, all

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Speaker 3: future prospects. So this would include you know, low expectations

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Speaker 3: for random events so called acts of God, and for

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Speaker 3: our own ability to do as we would hope. You know,

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Speaker 3: that's pessimism, whereas you might think of cynicism as pessimism

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Speaker 3: applied specifically to other people. Other people will always let

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Speaker 3: you down, they'll stab you in the back. They're only

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Speaker 3: in it for themselves.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it got me thinking about the saying, don't hate

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Speaker 2: the player, hate the game. Your modern cynic definitely hates

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Speaker 2: the players, or at least sees them as the underlying problem.

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Speaker 2: You know. It'd also add that cynicism can also easily

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Speaker 2: bleed over into downright nihilism. Though that's not to say

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Speaker 2: that modern cynicism isn't compatible with different philosophies and creeds,

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Speaker 2: because you could be a cynic and a hedonist at

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Speaker 2: the same time. Certainly, I don't know that you'd bea

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Speaker 2: trementdu is fun to hang out with, but you know

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Speaker 2: it is possible.

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Speaker 3: Now, what does it mean to say a person is

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Speaker 3: cynical in a way that is subjective? Because cynicism is,

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Speaker 3: by its nature a comparative idea or sort of expression

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Speaker 3: of degree. I would compare being cynical to being tall.

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Speaker 3: You know, there's no height at which a person becomes

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Speaker 3: objectively tall. People judge whether you're tall or not based

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Speaker 3: on the context. You know, they compare you to people

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Speaker 3: around you, or to other people in the culture where

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Speaker 3: you live, or other people in the room. And then,

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Speaker 3: on the other hand, while there's no objective cutoff point,

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Speaker 3: somebody who's like seven foot three is pretty much always

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Speaker 3: going to be considered tall, no matter what context they're in.

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Speaker 3: And I think being cynical is like that. It's a

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Speaker 3: comparative idea. There's no threshold score of social trust, and

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Speaker 3: if you fall below that score, you're objectively cynical. But

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Speaker 3: there are some people who are so cynical that basically

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Speaker 3: everybody's going to think of them as a cynical person.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And then of course it also depends on how

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Speaker 2: well you know that person as well, right, Because if

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Speaker 2: all you know about a person is one cynical thing

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Speaker 2: they said, you might be like, oh, well, that person's

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Speaker 2: really cynical. But maybe they're not that way all the time.

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Speaker 2: You know. It kind of gets into the way we

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Speaker 2: sometimes use the term, right. We say like I hate

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Speaker 2: to be cynical, but or you might call somebody out

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Speaker 2: and be like, I think you're being a little cynical

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Speaker 2: about this. You know, in those usages acknowledge the fact

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Speaker 2: that it's not necessarily a constant. It maybe something that

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Speaker 2: we dip into in response to different circumstances, different stimuli

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Speaker 2: and so forth.

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Speaker 3: That's right, that's a really good point. So, like a

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Speaker 3: lot of things in personality, you can think of cynicism

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Speaker 3: as a kind of it's a tendency. You know, you

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Speaker 3: might be you're more kind of pointed in one general

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Speaker 3: direction of interpretation, but it's not going to dictate that

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Speaker 3: every single moment of your life and every single thought

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Speaker 3: you have is exactly the same.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So, when we're trying to judge is a person cynical?

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Speaker 3: I think there are two main comparative ideas we use there.

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Speaker 3: One is what I was just talking about, like how

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Speaker 3: cynical is that person compared to other people, like compared

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Speaker 3: to the average of their peers. If they show less

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Speaker 3: social trusts than the people around them, we think of

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Speaker 3: them as cynical. But then there's a second metric that

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Speaker 3: I think people use, and that is how cynical a

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Speaker 3: person is compared to how cynical we, the people judging,

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Speaker 3: think it is reasonable to be.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we generally assume we've got it figured out. We're

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Speaker 2: at the right level.

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Speaker 3: We're at the right level, and anybody who's more cynical

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Speaker 3: than us is too cynical. Somebody less cynical is naive,

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Speaker 3: And this creates interesting levels of complexity, Like obviously, sometimes

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Speaker 3: it is reasonable to be suspicious of someone's motives and

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Speaker 3: to believe they will probably harm you if they can.

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Speaker 3: Here's a common but relatively benign example, and not getting

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Speaker 3: into like, you know, deep acts of harm against people.

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Speaker 3: You should not walk into a car lot expecting that

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Speaker 3: the salesperson and the finance it's manager are trying to

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Speaker 3: help you out and get you the best deal they can.

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Speaker 3: Maybe in some scenarios you'll find an extraordinarily unusually altruistic

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Speaker 3: car dealer, But a lot of the time, what they're

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Speaker 3: trying to do is make as much money off of

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Speaker 3: you as possible, which is not in your interest. And

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Speaker 3: that's not to suggest that people selling cars are like evil.

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Speaker 3: It's just it's their job to try to make money

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Speaker 3: selling cars. If they can make more on a sale

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Speaker 3: and you get you to buy at a higher price

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Speaker 3: or to take a less favorable financing option, they usually will.

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Speaker 3: And I think this is true, And yet I think

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Speaker 3: I'm not a very cynical person to make that judgment

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Speaker 3: about what happens at car lots. There are just specific

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Speaker 3: situations where it is reasonable, based on evidence and on

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Speaker 3: our background knowledge, to withhold trust from people, and this

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Speaker 3: is different, I think, from a generalized cynical distrust that

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Speaker 3: is not related to the specific situation. Now, of course,

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Speaker 3: what I think I just said is pretty uncontroversial in principle,

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Speaker 3: but we actually spend a lot of mental energy trying

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Speaker 3: to tell the difference between these two things, like the

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Speaker 3: situation where it's reasonable to be suspicious and the situation

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Speaker 3: where you're just expressing a bias towards cynicism. Like if

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Speaker 3: a friend comes to you and expresses distrust of something

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Speaker 3: or someone that you personally put a lot of faith in,

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Speaker 3: what's the most common defensive reaction for us to have.

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Speaker 3: I think it's like, don't be so cynical, or you're

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Speaker 3: just being cynical. Saying you're just being cynical downplays the

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Speaker 3: possibility that your doubting friend has a good insight, you know,

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Speaker 3: maybe that I have misplaced my faith and trust in something,

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Speaker 3: and instead it reframes the doubting friends' skepticism as part

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Speaker 3: of a general dispositional bias that they have. So dealing

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Speaker 3: with the balance between cynicism and reasonable suspicion is just

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Speaker 3: a really difficult thing that I think we all have

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Speaker 3: to deal with in our lives. We're asking the question like,

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Speaker 3: in general, how suspicious should we be of other people's motives?

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Speaker 3: And let's say you take generally cynical people and generally

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Speaker 3: trusting people, which groups model of the world makes more

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Speaker 3: accurate predictions, which group's model of the world is more

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Speaker 3: useful in life, and in which context does each model

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Speaker 3: thrive the most. I think we'll have to revisit that

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Speaker 3: question as we go along.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean it's always in short, it's a

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Speaker 2: careful balance, right, because do you want to protect yourself

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Speaker 2: absolutely all the time from all things, or do you

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Speaker 2: want to be able to move through life and open

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Speaker 2: yourself up to new possibilities that may in fact hurt you.

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Speaker 2: It always things like this will always remind me of

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Speaker 2: that C. S. Lewis quote about being afraid to love

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Speaker 2: because being because you're afraid that you will be hurt

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Speaker 2: through that love, either of you know, be a lot

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Speaker 2: or some other action. And therefore I think the analogy

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Speaker 2: made was like, you know, entombing yourself, you know, putting

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Speaker 2: yourself in a casket of loneliness, and I think some

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Speaker 2: of that applies here.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, totally.

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Speaker 2: Now I do have to acknowledge that. Yeah, dealing with

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Speaker 2: cynicism in people can certainly be exhausting, you know. Like

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Speaker 2: we've been saying, the cynic, like the pessimist, tends toward

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Speaker 2: type one errors in cognition, false positives, believing that the

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Speaker 2: predator alerks in the bushes even when it doesn't. And

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Speaker 2: there is always, again, an ample evidence for the cynic

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Speaker 2: exhaustive evidence. Even because they are not wrong about many

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Speaker 2: generalities about our world and human nature, they tend to

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Speaker 2: put others on the defensive, forcing them to make non

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Speaker 2: cynical counter arguments, you know, essentially prove the righteousness of

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Speaker 2: their all of human beings. Yeah, and at the same time,

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Speaker 2: in making those counter arguments, you don't want to go

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Speaker 2: so far as to dismiss the perceived threats or threats entirely,

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Speaker 2: because then they're going to come back at you with

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Speaker 2: while you're being naive.

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Speaker 3: This connects to what I was saying earlier, Like, again,

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Speaker 3: I think I'm not very cynical, but I feel kind

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Speaker 3: of silly or foolish if I try to argue with

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Speaker 3: somebody who says the heart is deceitful above all things.

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Speaker 3: It's like, I don't know it has a kind of

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Speaker 3: it has a kind of power because, as you were saying,

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Speaker 3: the cherry picking really works in its favor. You can

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Speaker 3: always think of examples when which you were wrong to

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Speaker 3: grant trust, but that if you think about it logically,

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Speaker 3: that doesn't actually mean you should always withhold trust. It's

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Speaker 3: just like it's very captivating those specific examples of when

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Speaker 3: it went wrong for you.

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Speaker 2: I was thinking about this as well over the weekend.

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Speaker 2: I was doing a bit of driving, and driving is

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Speaker 2: sort of a you know, it's a limited, sort of

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Speaker 2: artificial in some ways, like social scenario, and it's probably

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Speaker 2: a scenario where like I'm more cynical when I'm driving,

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Speaker 2: but in that I am less trusting of the other drivers,

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Speaker 2: and I'm not that I'm necessarily believing that they're out

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Speaker 2: to hurt me, but I maybe am more inclined to

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Speaker 2: believe that they are not looking out for me, and

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Speaker 2: they're maybe being a little greedy there and they might

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Speaker 2: not see me and so forth. But I guess the

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Speaker 2: danger would be taking cynicism from an environment like that

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Speaker 2: where it is maybe you know, low risk to engage

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Speaker 2: in such cynicism, To take that feeling off the road

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Speaker 2: and into the real world. I could see where that

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Speaker 2: could be kind of hurtful.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you take your defensive driving mentality and apply it

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Speaker 3: to your friend and family relationships and to politics and

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Speaker 3: to everything else in your life. Yeah, not a good idea,

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Speaker 3: I would argue. Yes.

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Speaker 2: Now, another huge problem about regarding mod and cynicism, this

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Speaker 2: is something we'll come back to again and again, is

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Speaker 2: that it's often pointed out that it generally fosters a

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Speaker 2: worldview in which no progress is possible. So again not

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Speaker 2: just talking about engaging in little feelings of cynicism now

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Speaker 2: and then like if the cynicism really piles up, and

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Speaker 2: if you really double down on your cynicism, then there's

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Speaker 2: no reason to try for or aspire for anything, you know,

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Speaker 2: because like if people are all bad essentially, if people

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Speaker 2: are all just in it for themselves, they're just greedy,

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Speaker 2: there's no caring. Then what can we do as a society,

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Speaker 2: What is it all possible? And you just kind of

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Speaker 2: become fossilized in the mud of your own distrust.

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Speaker 3: I think that's exactly right. In fact, this link you're

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Speaker 3: suggesting between cynicism and inaction or lack of progress is

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Speaker 3: absolutely backed up by evidence. We might get more into

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Speaker 3: the details of these studies later, but I've been looking

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Speaker 3: at studies that have found cynicism tends to cause people

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Speaker 3: to skip opportunities to cooperate to achieve goals. It tends

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Speaker 3: to people high in cynicism tend to hold back from

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Speaker 3: involvement in the political process, not voting, not protesting, not

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Speaker 3: signing a petition, even if they care about an issue.

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Speaker 3: And it just seems like if you're higher in cynicism,

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Speaker 3: you are less likely to try to make things better

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Speaker 3: and more likely to give up.

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Speaker 2: I want to read a quote here from Asgar Allen,

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Speaker 2: author of the MIT Press Essential Knowledge series book Cynicism,

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Speaker 2: which deals, as I'll discuss and as I cite this

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Speaker 2: book again with both ancient cynicism and modern cynicism. More

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Speaker 2: on that in a bit, but he writes quote as

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Speaker 2: a cultural disposition, cynicism foments distrust, derails progress, and reduces

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Speaker 2: all higher things, all that is good about humankind, to

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Speaker 2: the level of its own diminished outlook. It assumes that

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Speaker 2: all human motives are basically selfish and denies the possibility

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Speaker 2: of a better world.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's true. Despite the persuasive power of cynicism.

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Speaker 3: As I mentioned earlier, I think that is correct at

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Speaker 3: the level of my personal experience, and that seems borne

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Speaker 3: out by experimental evidence as well.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, And I'll also add that in the book

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Speaker 2: he stresses that, you know, while we can all point

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Speaker 2: out just you know, egregious examples of cynicism in the

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Speaker 2: world around us, we're also just all infected by cynicism.

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Speaker 2: Like it's not just a world of cynics and non

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Speaker 2: cynics for the most part, And he cites common sayings

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Speaker 2: like I hate to be cynical, but and so forth,

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Speaker 2: like we were talking, but you know, points out that

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Speaker 2: cynicism is pretty much in all of us, festering to

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Speaker 2: various degrees and very much takes on the form of

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Speaker 2: an affliction. It may dominate, it may go into remission,

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Speaker 2: it may flare up due to various and environmental factors.

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Speaker 3: But it is there, absolutely, Yeah, which raises the good

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Speaker 3: question of if it's there latently to some degree in

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Speaker 3: all of us, and in some cases for quite understandable reasons,

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Speaker 3: what brings it out, what makes it grow, and maybe

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Speaker 3: what can diminish it. Now, I guess we'll have to

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Speaker 3: come back to that because one thing that we definitely

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Speaker 3: should address here is it gets a little confusing when

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Speaker 3: you're trying to look up research on cynicism, because cynicism

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Speaker 3: is a word that is used to mean at least

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Speaker 3: two completely different things. There is a school of classical

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Speaker 3: Greek philosophy called cynicism, which is not merely social distrust.

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Speaker 3: It's a whole school of thought that entails different things. Rob,

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Speaker 3: I think you're about to get into it in a second,

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Speaker 3: but these two cynicisms are totally different. And it was

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Speaker 3: a kind of an interesting question to me to wonder

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Speaker 3: how the same word came to be used for these

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Speaker 3: two different things.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's one of those things where it's complicated. We're

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Speaker 2: dealing with centuries upon centuries of human history with different

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Speaker 2: returns to ancient cynicism and so forth. You know, it's

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Speaker 2: not quite a scenario that you might encounter with movie

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Speaker 2: titles where you're like, Okay, well there's the Peter Lorie

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Speaker 2: Madlove movie and then there's the the nineties television series

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Speaker 2: Mad Love, and these are not connected at all. They

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Speaker 2: just share a title. There's there's more connective tissue here,

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Speaker 2: but it but it is I think also completely correct

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Speaker 2: to say you're dealing with two different things. They don't

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Speaker 2: line up on a lot of their principles, even if

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Speaker 2: there is ultimately some shared history there.

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Speaker 3: So what's the rundown on capital C cynicism or cynic philosophy.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So in the book Cynicism, Alan gets into this

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Speaker 2: a bit and he refers to like the broader transitionary

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Speaker 2: matter as capital C slash lower C cynicism. So it's

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Speaker 2: like like c C cynicism or something I don't know,

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Speaker 2: you wouldn't pronounce it out about, but like basically referring

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Speaker 2: to this grander thing of cynism that begins with capital

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Speaker 2: C cynicism and eventually leads into lower case cynicism that

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Speaker 2: is in all of us today. In either case, he

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Speaker 2: stresses that cynics are not good people, not by mainstream

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Speaker 2: social standards anyway. But while the modern cynic is a

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Speaker 2: person under the influence again of this kind of infection

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Speaker 2: of distrust, the ancient cynics were a different matter. I

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Speaker 2: have to stress that the ancient cynics were totally punk,

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Speaker 2: like abrasively punk. Yes, And to really get into this,

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Speaker 2: we have to look at the most famous of these

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Speaker 2: ancient punks, and that of course is Diogenes the Cynic

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Speaker 2: or Diogenes of synop. We have talked about Diogenes on

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Speaker 2: the show before. I think in episodes we were talking

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Speaker 2: about solitary hermits and so forth, because one of the

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Speaker 2: more famous aspects of him that you often see illustrated

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Speaker 2: and rendered as the subject in various Renaissance paintings and

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Speaker 2: so forth is the fact that he lived in a

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Speaker 2: jar in public.

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Speaker 3: I think in like the marketplace and athensres it lived

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Speaker 3: in a big tub or a jar just out in public.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, when we say lived in a jar, not

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Speaker 2: a little jar, like a big like a big old

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Speaker 2: you know, you can think of it more as like

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Speaker 2: a big barrel on its side. It's the way it's

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Speaker 2: generally depicted in art.

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Speaker 3: Often he's basically naked as well.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, basically naked, dressed in rags, surrounded by dogs. Often

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Speaker 2: has a lantern out in the day, like he's like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: what about it, I've got a lantern. I'm burning the lantern.

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Speaker 2: I don't need it right now, but I'm burning it.

433
00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:30,160
Speaker 2: You know. That's that's how anti establishment I am.

434
00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:32,640
Speaker 3: I think there's one story. I might have this wrong,

435
00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:34,520
Speaker 3: but there's a story that he would carry around the

436
00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:36,639
Speaker 3: lantern in the daytime and he would say that he

437
00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:41,040
Speaker 3: was looking for an honest man, which that almost connects

438
00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:43,920
Speaker 3: a little bit to the lower Sea cynicism. It kind

439
00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:47,679
Speaker 3: of there's a sort of critique of human nature or

440
00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:51,000
Speaker 3: an idea of hypocrisy and how people present themselves there,

441
00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:52,320
Speaker 3: so there's a little bit of connection.

442
00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:53,120
Speaker 2: Yeah.

443
00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:56,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, but again not to imply that Diogenes was just

444
00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:59,680
Speaker 3: a lowercase Sea cynic, because he's much more interesting than that.

445
00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:02,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, there are a lot of stories about him. There's

446
00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:05,440
Speaker 2: like the famous story of him telling Alexander the Great

447
00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:09,520
Speaker 2: essentially to to f off and then Alexander the Great's like, huh,

448
00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:13,000
Speaker 2: this guy's great, and that's basically the whole story there.

449
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:15,960
Speaker 3: But no, it's a great one. Alexander the Great came

450
00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:17,520
Speaker 3: through and he's like, oh, I want to meet the great,

451
00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:21,040
Speaker 3: the centic philosopher Diogenes. So like you know, he goes

452
00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:23,400
Speaker 3: with his retinue and the generals to go find him,

453
00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:26,080
Speaker 3: and he's I think the story's Diogenes is like laying

454
00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:29,520
Speaker 3: out sunning himself naked or something, and Alexander walks up

455
00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:32,120
Speaker 3: to him and his shadow falls over him, and he's like, hey,

456
00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:35,080
Speaker 3: can I you know, I'm the conquering king. Can I

457
00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:38,440
Speaker 3: give you anything? And Diogenes is like, I would like

458
00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:42,480
Speaker 3: you to get out of my light. Yeah, And so

459
00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:44,160
Speaker 3: Alexander did not kill him.

460
00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:46,159
Speaker 2: He was just like, okay, yeah, I think that the

461
00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:49,439
Speaker 2: essentially the quote that has attributed to Alexander. He's like

462
00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:52,280
Speaker 2: if I if I wasn't Alexander, I would be Diogenes.

463
00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:52,960
Speaker 3: Okay.

464
00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:54,960
Speaker 2: It's like this character I like. I like the cut

465
00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:55,440
Speaker 2: of his chip.

466
00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:57,720
Speaker 3: Well that's a that's the kind of story I like

467
00:25:57,840 --> 00:25:59,960
Speaker 3: telling the powerful man to f off. Yeah.

468
00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:04,080
Speaker 2: Though there are there are various stories about the Diogenes

469
00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:07,560
Speaker 2: and his travels, and also about the various bodily functions

470
00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:11,119
Speaker 2: that he would carry out in public, sometimes like mid

471
00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:16,639
Speaker 2: speech and so forth, and there are occasionals some stories

472
00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:18,840
Speaker 2: are thought to maybe maybe be a little more fictional

473
00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:22,880
Speaker 2: and a little more you know, legendary, but we are

474
00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:27,440
Speaker 2: definitely dealing with an historic person thought to have lived

475
00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:33,800
Speaker 2: four thirteen or four three BCE through three twenty one

476
00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:39,560
Speaker 2: or three twenty four BCE, and he did write. None

477
00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:42,720
Speaker 2: of his own writings survive, though I apparently wrote dialogues,

478
00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:46,480
Speaker 2: letters and tragedies. We mostly know of him through the

479
00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:49,199
Speaker 2: writings of others. Oh, I should correct that we know

480
00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:51,919
Speaker 2: about him exclusively through the writings of others. Again, his

481
00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:53,560
Speaker 2: own writings did not survive.

482
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:56,320
Speaker 3: Now you mentioned the bodily functions. If you don't read deeper,

483
00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:58,840
Speaker 3: you might be tempted to assume, based on the example

484
00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:02,000
Speaker 3: of Diogenes, that sin philosophy is just about like pooping

485
00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:02,560
Speaker 3: in public.

486
00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:06,880
Speaker 2: And it is one of the more I guess, eye

487
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:12,720
Speaker 2: catching aspects of their of their public display of humanity. Yeah,

488
00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:15,399
Speaker 2: they they were said to, especially Diagenies, was said to

489
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:19,320
Speaker 2: freely engage in public dispension of the body's various functions

490
00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:21,840
Speaker 2: in a way that would still be shocking today and

491
00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:24,840
Speaker 2: would still very much be against social norms. But the

492
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:27,760
Speaker 2: I guess the key way of understanding what it was.

493
00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:29,600
Speaker 2: I mean, certainly it does seem like it was about

494
00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:33,000
Speaker 2: shocking people. Again, these these guys were very punk, very

495
00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:39,080
Speaker 2: in everyone's faces with how they viewed human nature and

496
00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:42,840
Speaker 2: how they viewed society. But essentially we'll get into more

497
00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:44,440
Speaker 2: of what this meant to them. But they were living

498
00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:47,639
Speaker 2: the animal life, They were rooting the human experience in

499
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:51,399
Speaker 2: the body. Uh and uh and uh, and so they

500
00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:53,280
Speaker 2: were they were saying, Hey, this is what we are.

501
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:54,960
Speaker 2: Why should we deny what we are?

502
00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:58,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, that the good life lies in dispensing with sort

503
00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:03,199
Speaker 3: of false pretension and living in accordance with your nature.

504
00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:09,159
Speaker 2: Yeah. Now, Diagenes was not the first cynic and to

505
00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:12,280
Speaker 2: s Thinnes Roughly who live roughly four forty six through

506
00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:16,480
Speaker 2: three sixty six BCE, a pupil of Socrates and said

507
00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:19,280
Speaker 2: to be the teacher of Diagenese, is often considered the

508
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:22,920
Speaker 2: founder of cynicism, though even in antiquity, Alan points out

509
00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:25,320
Speaker 2: it was thought that cynicism dated back to a time

510
00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:30,400
Speaker 2: before Heracles, connected to the cunning intelligence of the gods.

511
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:34,200
Speaker 2: And I did find it interesting that Heracles was referenced

512
00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:36,600
Speaker 2: here because it seems like a good name to invoke,

513
00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:39,720
Speaker 2: even indirectly, because, as we've discussed on the show before,

514
00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:42,760
Speaker 2: the son of Zeus wasn't just raw muscle, you know,

515
00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:45,680
Speaker 2: throwing stones at monsters and so forth. He was also

516
00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:49,440
Speaker 2: clever and cunning. He used his I guess, his high

517
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:53,120
Speaker 2: wisdom scores and overcoming the various obstacles. So they had

518
00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:58,320
Speaker 2: kind of bar kind of barbarian wisdom that you see

519
00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:01,920
Speaker 2: in some of these examples a figure from outside the

520
00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:05,520
Speaker 2: system that is opposed to the system, and inhericle is

521
00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:09,880
Speaker 2: this case, you know, often opposing mortal tyrants, and Alan

522
00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:13,120
Speaker 2: points out that this idea likely does extend pretty far

523
00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:15,560
Speaker 2: back in Greek thought as a kind of lifting up

524
00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:18,320
Speaker 2: of an outsider figure as a critic of society.

525
00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:22,000
Speaker 3: So then, what actually are the tenets of cinic philosophy?

526
00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:25,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is interesting because I feel like a lot

527
00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:27,480
Speaker 2: of the tenets we can still recognize in the world

528
00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:32,560
Speaker 2: today in forms that we don't necessarily call cynicism. Like

529
00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:35,680
Speaker 2: I was thinking of various biker movies I've seen where

530
00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:38,080
Speaker 2: you see some version of this, and again couldn't help

531
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:40,440
Speaker 2: but think of you know, various things from like the

532
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:44,880
Speaker 2: punk scene, or like metal lyrics and so forth. We

533
00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:48,880
Speaker 2: often see some of these ideas, you know, idealized in

534
00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:53,400
Speaker 2: music and film. But the ancient cynics, again exemplified in

535
00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:58,520
Speaker 2: the figure of Diogenes, absolutely rejected conventional values and societal norms.

536
00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:02,920
Speaker 2: They absolutely did not care about your society, your obsession

537
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:06,840
Speaker 2: with fame and wealth. They saw the absolute hypocrisy of

538
00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:11,120
Speaker 2: it all, and they openly dragged it like they they

539
00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:13,040
Speaker 2: were gonna you were gonna know they were a cynic

540
00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:15,160
Speaker 2: on site, and they were going to let you know

541
00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:17,240
Speaker 2: they were a synic because they would they would preach

542
00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:19,120
Speaker 2: to you about it. They would tell you about it.

543
00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:23,000
Speaker 2: They lived simple, self sufficient lives while also seeking to

544
00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:25,440
Speaker 2: expose the folly of the mainstream world.

545
00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:28,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, so there's a tendency to UH, to simple living,

546
00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:33,240
Speaker 3: to asceticism, to and to calling out ostentation. And it's

547
00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:36,280
Speaker 3: interesting I think you point out that cynicism was often

548
00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:39,920
Speaker 3: a philosophy you could see embodied on the person in

549
00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:42,840
Speaker 3: the way they appeared and in the way they were living,

550
00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:46,120
Speaker 3: which is less true about some other schools of philosophy

551
00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:48,360
Speaker 3: in which you might have to like talk to the

552
00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:51,280
Speaker 3: person and like hear about what they think in order

553
00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:53,680
Speaker 3: to figure out what their their philosophy is.

554
00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:56,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like you wouldn't be going on a blind date

555
00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:58,760
Speaker 2: and then halfway through the day realize, oh, I think

556
00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:00,960
Speaker 2: this person's a cynic. Now you would know at first

557
00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:06,600
Speaker 2: sight because they're surrounded by dogs, they're wearing rags. Well,

558
00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:09,360
Speaker 2: oftentimes they were said to wear old cloaks and carry

559
00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:12,000
Speaker 2: a staff. But there would be there. You would know

560
00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:14,480
Speaker 2: immediately if you were about to go on a blind

561
00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:17,480
Speaker 2: day with a cynic. It wouldn't be like halfway through. Oh,

562
00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:20,400
Speaker 2: and then I realized that they were you know, you know,

563
00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:23,480
Speaker 2: a nihilist you know, came up in conversation like, No,

564
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:26,600
Speaker 2: it would be very apparent in your face. So again

565
00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:30,000
Speaker 2: absolutely in your face anti establishment vibes here. But it

566
00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:32,920
Speaker 2: would be a mistake to assume that this was just

567
00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:35,880
Speaker 2: about young yucking the world and seeking to drag everyone

568
00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:39,280
Speaker 2: down into sort of a miserable nihilistic existence, which I

569
00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:41,840
Speaker 2: think is an easy mistake to make when you look

570
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:45,800
Speaker 2: at some of these factors. But in reality, the ancient

571
00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:50,520
Speaker 2: cynics praised virtue above all else. They believe that true

572
00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:54,200
Speaker 2: happiness and peace could only be achieved by following a

573
00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:59,000
Speaker 2: virtuous path close to nature, an authentic, natural human life

574
00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:02,320
Speaker 2: full of truth that also exposed the lies of others.

575
00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:06,400
Speaker 3: Okay, So, while I still think that cynic philosophy and

576
00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:09,400
Speaker 3: modern cynicism are pretty much totally different things, you can

577
00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:12,320
Speaker 3: start to see the connective thread here with like the

578
00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:15,560
Speaker 3: calling out of hypocrisy. You know, I think this would

579
00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:19,280
Speaker 3: be a common virtue aspired to by people who think

580
00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:23,560
Speaker 3: of themselves as cynical. Today, I am exposing hypocrisy. I'm

581
00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:26,240
Speaker 3: exposing how you know, you're not really as good as

582
00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:29,560
Speaker 3: you say you are, that there's something more base lying

583
00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:30,280
Speaker 3: underneath you.

584
00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:33,960
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. Now one thing that Alan points out another

585
00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:37,520
Speaker 2: difference here, though, is that the ancient Cynics were also

586
00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:41,600
Speaker 2: thought to consider themselves rather a cosmopolitan They saw themselves

587
00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:43,920
Speaker 2: as citizens of the world rather than members of a

588
00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:46,800
Speaker 2: local society or group. I don't know. You might be

589
00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:48,680
Speaker 2: able to bin that in certain ways and make a

590
00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:51,920
Speaker 2: case for like modern cynics just thinking like that, but

591
00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:55,040
Speaker 2: I don't know. I would. I would imagine that a

592
00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:59,320
Speaker 2: modern lower case C cynic who is thinking about themselves

593
00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:01,960
Speaker 2: as a citizen citizen the world, is also thinking of

594
00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:03,640
Speaker 2: it in a very dreary sense.

595
00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:07,560
Speaker 3: You know, yeah, a less universal brotherhood and more like, uh,

596
00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:09,840
Speaker 3: we're all you know, we're all going to the same place.

597
00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:14,000
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think one of the big differences that Alan

598
00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:17,040
Speaker 2: points out is that the ancient cynics, again, they believed

599
00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:21,720
Speaker 2: in virtue. They believed that the world could become a

600
00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:25,600
Speaker 2: better place because they were preaching a philosophy that they

601
00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:29,880
Speaker 2: believed I proved human lives. And this is really key too.

602
00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:32,959
Speaker 2: He points out that it was a joyful ethos It

603
00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:35,840
Speaker 2: wasn't just like I'm sitting here in the dirt and

604
00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:38,480
Speaker 2: I'm miserable, be miserable with me, No, it was it

605
00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:41,680
Speaker 2: had a like radical, joyful energy to it.

606
00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:42,719
Speaker 3: Absolutely.

607
00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:47,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, So philosophical cynicism, big C cynicism was primarily practiced

608
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:51,840
Speaker 2: from the fourth century BCE to around the fifth century CE,

609
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:57,800
Speaker 2: though gradually declining after the third century BCEE. And this

610
00:33:57,880 --> 00:33:59,640
Speaker 2: of course leads to a question that I think we

611
00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:01,560
Speaker 2: may come back to a little bit more as well,

612
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:06,240
Speaker 2: But what sort of transformation takes place from capital C

613
00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:09,000
Speaker 2: cynicism to lowercase cynicism from the ancient world and the

614
00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:13,480
Speaker 2: modern And to put it very briefly, to summarize some

615
00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:17,040
Speaker 2: of what Alan gets into, First of all, the transformation

616
00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:22,880
Speaker 2: involves a radical engage in an even joyful philosophy, becoming

617
00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:28,600
Speaker 2: this more corrosive, passive, and miserable way of looking at

618
00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:32,719
Speaker 2: the world. So again, you had to really be engaged

619
00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:36,000
Speaker 2: to be a capital C cynic You were making definite

620
00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:38,839
Speaker 2: life choices, going out in the streets and doing it.

621
00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:43,200
Speaker 2: Whereas lowercase C cynicism that we have today, it's in everybody,

622
00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:46,719
Speaker 2: it's ambient, it's just at what level is it going

623
00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:51,960
Speaker 2: to manifest in our worldview and our speech and our actions. Yeah, okay, yeah,

624
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:54,120
Speaker 2: So it went from something that was very activated and

625
00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:57,400
Speaker 2: optimistic to something that just kind of festers, and they're

626
00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:01,080
Speaker 2: like a number I guess sort of lips and points

627
00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:05,640
Speaker 2: you can single out. The stoics later took elements of

628
00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:10,680
Speaker 2: cynic ideas and tempered. There are more radical elements than

629
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:13,560
Speaker 2: much later on, during the Renaissance and the Enlightenment, cynic

630
00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:19,120
Speaker 2: ideas were reinterpreted and utilized in ways that often eroded

631
00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:22,120
Speaker 2: their critical edge. And then in modern times you have

632
00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:25,279
Speaker 2: to also factor in the perceived complexities and failures of

633
00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:30,440
Speaker 2: modern systems, and this, you know, further squeezes some of

634
00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:34,840
Speaker 2: these ideas into the current ambient form. Though at the

635
00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:39,200
Speaker 2: same time, again, the energy of ancient cynicism continues to

636
00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:43,640
Speaker 2: thrive in other areas of rebellious thought. So you could again,

637
00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:46,800
Speaker 2: you know, I can think of numerous examples, certainly from media,

638
00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:51,279
Speaker 2: but also from the real world. People who are you

639
00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:55,880
Speaker 2: speaking out against societal norms and engaging sometimes in speech

640
00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:59,120
Speaker 2: that may feel at least like its lowercase cynicism.

641
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:01,520
Speaker 3: A lot of the best cases of that, I think

642
00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:05,200
Speaker 3: it actually is not cynical in the dispositional way we've

643
00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:07,680
Speaker 3: been thinking about, because it requires a lot of trust

644
00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:11,840
Speaker 3: and cooperation and belief in the possibility of good things

645
00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:14,360
Speaker 3: coming out of human nature and all that stuff.

646
00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:17,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, So again, we may come back to more of

647
00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:18,920
Speaker 2: this as we go, but I think that is a

648
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:23,799
Speaker 2: proper grounding in ancient capital c cynicism that allows us

649
00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:26,880
Speaker 2: to move forward into more discussions of where.

650
00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:38,360
Speaker 3: We are now. Whichever way you come down on the

651
00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:42,160
Speaker 3: cynic versus the non cynics accuracy in modeling the world,

652
00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:45,960
Speaker 3: I think what is absolutely clear at this point, based

653
00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:49,320
Speaker 3: on a lot of research, is that there are tons

654
00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:55,799
Speaker 3: of straightforwardly negative life outcomes correlated with cynicism. You know,

655
00:36:56,520 --> 00:37:00,560
Speaker 3: I sometimes try to stay away from like strong normative

656
00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:02,839
Speaker 3: claims of this sort on the show, but I think

657
00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:06,840
Speaker 3: it's just like it's almost definite, like it is bad

658
00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:09,600
Speaker 3: for you in lots of ways to be cynical. It's

659
00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:12,759
Speaker 3: not good for your physical or mental health, it's not

660
00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:16,000
Speaker 3: good for your ability to attain goals. It's just like

661
00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:20,680
Speaker 3: across the board, pretty bad for you to be highly cynical. Now,

662
00:37:20,719 --> 00:37:23,400
Speaker 3: since we're about to look at some psychological and medical research,

663
00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:26,319
Speaker 3: I think it's worth a check in on how cynicism

664
00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:31,719
Speaker 3: is defined in this literature. It's usually treated as what

665
00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:35,879
Speaker 3: a couple of authors Stavrova and Ilibroct I'll come back

666
00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:39,719
Speaker 3: to them in a bit, call a quote cognitive component

667
00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:43,840
Speaker 3: of hostility. So, in other words, when a person displays

668
00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:48,520
Speaker 3: the character trait of hostility, cynicism is the cogni main

669
00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:51,640
Speaker 3: cognitive part of that. It's the thought patterns and belief

670
00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:57,240
Speaker 3: structures underlying hostility. So in these papers, cynicism is often

671
00:37:57,280 --> 00:38:01,840
Speaker 3: called cynical hostility. And I would say, based on my reading,

672
00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:06,040
Speaker 3: there seem to be three core beliefs defining cynical hostility.

673
00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:11,480
Speaker 3: Number one, other people have bad moral character and harmful intentions.

674
00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:16,719
Speaker 3: Number two, people are motivated primarily by self interest. And

675
00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:21,239
Speaker 3: number three people will ignore their moral values if given

676
00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:25,080
Speaker 3: the opportunity. So the very short way to paraphrase cynical

677
00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:29,320
Speaker 3: hostility is people are bad, people are selfish, and morals

678
00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:33,279
Speaker 3: are fake. So what effects do these beliefs have on

679
00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:35,359
Speaker 3: our lives and our bodies? Well, I'm going to run

680
00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:41,000
Speaker 3: through some commonly cited items. One is the well established

681
00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:46,920
Speaker 3: link between cynicism and various health outcomes. So For example,

682
00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:52,400
Speaker 3: studies have repeatedly found links between high cynicism and poor

683
00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:57,280
Speaker 3: cardiovascular health. In fact, I even found one study arguing

684
00:38:57,360 --> 00:39:02,680
Speaker 3: for a particular causal link between cynical hostility and cardiovascular disease.

685
00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:06,120
Speaker 3: That paper was by Tyra at All in the journal

686
00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:09,720
Speaker 3: Psychophysiology from the year twenty twenty, and it's called cynical

687
00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:14,040
Speaker 3: hostility relates to a lack of habituation of the cardiovascular

688
00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:19,400
Speaker 3: response to repeated acute stress. So once I read this,

689
00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:22,840
Speaker 3: I thought this was really interesting. The study built on

690
00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:25,200
Speaker 3: a general finding that had been in the research for

691
00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:29,120
Speaker 3: years that if a person exhibits hostility to others, they

692
00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:32,680
Speaker 3: will be at an increased risk of heart disease over time,

693
00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:37,200
Speaker 3: and the authors here decided to probe more specifically into

694
00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:41,319
Speaker 3: what kinds of hostility, or what elements of hostility were

695
00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:46,319
Speaker 3: the most damaging, and they looked at emotional hostility, behavioral hostility,

696
00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:52,000
Speaker 3: and cognitive hostility. Emotional hostility is it's affective in nature,

697
00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:54,680
Speaker 3: and it's characterized by things like chronic anger, when you

698
00:39:54,719 --> 00:39:58,960
Speaker 3: feel the emotion of anger a lot. Behavioral hostility is

699
00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:03,040
Speaker 3: a tendency to react to situations with expressions of aggression

700
00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:08,000
Speaker 3: and cognitive hostility is about beliefs, meaning it is essentially

701
00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:11,960
Speaker 3: synonymous with cynicism. In the words of the lead author here,

702
00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:16,960
Speaker 3: Alexandra Tyra, it is quote negative beliefs, thoughts, and attitudes

703
00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:22,440
Speaker 3: about other people's motives, intentions, and trustworthiness. Hostility tends to

704
00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:26,920
Speaker 3: come along with a physiological stress response, including things like

705
00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:33,560
Speaker 3: increased blood pressure that can damage the cardiovascular system when chronic. Now, normally,

706
00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:37,400
Speaker 3: when we have a stressful experience, the body tends to

707
00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:42,360
Speaker 3: acclimate to that stressful experience by desensitizing us to the

708
00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:45,960
Speaker 3: stressful stimulus. So what really freaked us out the first

709
00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:49,080
Speaker 3: time is old news by the seventeenth time, and we

710
00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:51,520
Speaker 3: just don't have the same stress response anymore. You can

711
00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:54,319
Speaker 3: think about this. A common example used in these experiments

712
00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:58,160
Speaker 3: is like public speaking tends to be really stressful the

713
00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:00,759
Speaker 3: first time, but if you do it again and again

714
00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:04,640
Speaker 3: you get used to it, it becomes less stressful each time, apparently,

715
00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:10,319
Speaker 3: except when cynicism comes into play somehow. Cognitive cynicism, this

716
00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:12,600
Speaker 3: lack of trust in other is a belief that other

717
00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:16,399
Speaker 3: people are bad, that they're self interested, and that their

718
00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:21,600
Speaker 3: morals are fake. Cognitive cynicism seems to prevent the body

719
00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:28,359
Speaker 3: from chilling out about stressors upon repeat exposure. And here

720
00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:30,920
Speaker 3: I'm going to quote from the lead author, Alexandra Tyra.

721
00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:36,160
Speaker 3: She's quoted in a Baylor University press release about this research. Quote. Essentially,

722
00:41:36,239 --> 00:41:38,879
Speaker 3: when you're exposed to the same thing multiple times, the

723
00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:42,040
Speaker 3: novelty of that situation wears off, and then you don't

724
00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:43,800
Speaker 3: have as big of a response as you did the

725
00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:46,920
Speaker 3: first time. This is a healthy response, but our study

726
00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:51,560
Speaker 3: demonstrates that a higher tendency for cynical hostility may prevent

727
00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:55,440
Speaker 3: or inhibit this decrease in response over time. In other words,

728
00:41:55,480 --> 00:42:00,279
Speaker 3: the cardiovascular system responds similarly to a second stressor as

729
00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:05,080
Speaker 3: it did to the first. So a really interesting question is, like,

730
00:42:05,239 --> 00:42:08,640
Speaker 3: why is this Like when you believe everybody's in it

731
00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:11,919
Speaker 3: for themselves and people can't be trusted and everybody lies

732
00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:15,480
Speaker 3: and cheats to get ahead, It is apparently just harder

733
00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:18,440
Speaker 3: for people to relax about the things that are causing

734
00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:22,640
Speaker 3: them distress upon repeat exposure, even harder than it might

735
00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:25,360
Speaker 3: be for people who have other other kinds of issues,

736
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:28,359
Speaker 3: like emotional issues with chronic anger, though of course those

737
00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:33,359
Speaker 3: things can and do overlap. But yeah, really fascinating to me, like,

738
00:42:33,400 --> 00:42:35,960
Speaker 3: why would that link be there? What exactly is the

739
00:42:36,719 --> 00:42:41,200
Speaker 3: causal connection? But apparently it's not just heart disease. Another

740
00:42:41,560 --> 00:42:47,239
Speaker 3: commonly studied example is depression. Cynicism is perhaps unsurprisingly associated

741
00:42:47,239 --> 00:42:50,760
Speaker 3: with increased risk of depression. One paper on this subject

742
00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:53,000
Speaker 3: is by Nabi at All from twenty ten in the

743
00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:57,719
Speaker 3: journal Psychological Medicine called Hostility and Depressive Mood Results from

744
00:42:57,719 --> 00:43:01,840
Speaker 3: the Whitehall two perspective cohort Study and so. This was

745
00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:05,680
Speaker 3: a longitudinal study of data collected by a survey of

746
00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:08,719
Speaker 3: a large group of civil servants in London beginning in

747
00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:11,479
Speaker 3: the nineteen eighties and then following up with the same

748
00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:15,359
Speaker 3: participants many years later. In this particular study found that

749
00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:19,960
Speaker 3: people with the most cynical hostility at ages thirty five

750
00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:23,560
Speaker 3: to fifty five, as measured by a couple of common

751
00:43:23,600 --> 00:43:28,120
Speaker 3: inventories such as the Cook Medley Hostility scale, also had

752
00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:32,400
Speaker 3: the greatest likelihood of depressive mood nineteen years later, even

753
00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:37,040
Speaker 3: after controlling for socio demographic variables and the presence of

754
00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:40,640
Speaker 3: baseline mental health struggles. And so the authors conclude that

755
00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:44,239
Speaker 3: cynicism on its own is a strong and robust predictor

756
00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:48,520
Speaker 3: of later depression. And the negative effects don't stop there.

757
00:43:48,560 --> 00:43:51,560
Speaker 3: There's also there are multiple studies going at least as

758
00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:54,560
Speaker 3: far back as the nineteen nineties, maybe even earlier, that

759
00:43:54,600 --> 00:43:58,600
Speaker 3: have found a link between cynicism and all cause mortality,

760
00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:02,560
Speaker 3: so on average, cynical people tend to have earlier deaths.

761
00:44:03,120 --> 00:44:05,800
Speaker 3: One example of this research is a study by Susan

762
00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:09,080
Speaker 3: Everson and co authors in the American Journal of Epidemiology

763
00:44:09,080 --> 00:44:12,600
Speaker 3: in nineteen ninety seven. This investigated a group of twenty

764
00:44:12,680 --> 00:44:14,880
Speaker 3: one hundred and twenty five men between the ages of

765
00:44:14,920 --> 00:44:17,560
Speaker 3: forty two and sixty over a period of nine years,

766
00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:21,120
Speaker 3: and it found that men in the top quartile, so

767
00:44:21,239 --> 00:44:25,480
Speaker 3: the top twenty five percent of cynical hostility scores, were

768
00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:28,200
Speaker 3: more than twice as likely to die in the next

769
00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:31,120
Speaker 3: nine years as men in the bottom quartile, the lowest

770
00:44:31,160 --> 00:44:35,240
Speaker 3: twenty five percent of cynicism scores. And in this case,

771
00:44:35,280 --> 00:44:38,640
Speaker 3: the authors found that the correlation with all cause mortality

772
00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:44,000
Speaker 3: disappeared when the analysis factored in behavioral risk factors things

773
00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:47,319
Speaker 3: like smoking and levels of alcohol consumption, and some other

774
00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:51,960
Speaker 3: risk factors, which suggests that at least within this sample

775
00:44:52,120 --> 00:44:54,600
Speaker 3: the way they looked at it here, it might not

776
00:44:54,680 --> 00:44:59,480
Speaker 3: necessarily be that cynicism kills you directly, but that cynicism

777
00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:05,560
Speaker 3: is a associated with behaviors and lifestyle and conditioned responses

778
00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:10,040
Speaker 3: that worsen health outcomes and lead to earlier deaths. And

779
00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:11,880
Speaker 3: so of course you could factor in things like the

780
00:45:11,960 --> 00:45:14,279
Speaker 3: later finding that cynicism does appear to be bad for

781
00:45:14,280 --> 00:45:18,640
Speaker 3: your cardiovascular health. Now here's another question. There appears to

782
00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:22,360
Speaker 3: be a wide consensus among experts cynicism it comes with

783
00:45:22,480 --> 00:45:25,319
Speaker 3: bad health outcomes. But are we sure which way the

784
00:45:25,360 --> 00:45:29,240
Speaker 3: effect goes? Like does poor health make people more cynical

785
00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:32,799
Speaker 3: or does cynicism lead to poor health? Well, I found

786
00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:34,840
Speaker 3: a paper looking into that, and it seems like the

787
00:45:34,880 --> 00:45:40,520
Speaker 3: effect probably goes both ways, creating a vicious cycle. So

788
00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:45,160
Speaker 3: this paper was by Olga Stavrova and Daniel Elibracht called

789
00:45:45,280 --> 00:45:48,440
Speaker 3: Broken Bodies, Broken Spirits How poor health contributes to a

790
00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:52,680
Speaker 3: cynical worldview in the European Journal of Personality from twenty nineteen.

791
00:45:53,719 --> 00:45:56,640
Speaker 3: A note that we'll encounter these author names repeatedly in

792
00:45:56,680 --> 00:45:58,640
Speaker 3: the series. That seems like they've done a lot of

793
00:45:58,719 --> 00:46:02,600
Speaker 3: research on cynicism. Stavrova is a professor of psychology at

794
00:46:02,640 --> 00:46:06,160
Speaker 3: Tilburg University in the Netherlands and Daniel Elibracht is at

795
00:46:06,200 --> 00:46:10,560
Speaker 3: the University of Cologne in Germany. Now this one I

796
00:46:10,600 --> 00:46:13,360
Speaker 3: thought was pretty interesting. This paper opens with a little

797
00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:17,080
Speaker 3: historical anecdote that I don't think I'd ever come across before.

798
00:46:17,800 --> 00:46:23,240
Speaker 3: It's talking about King Henry aka Robert Barathian. Yeah, Henry.

799
00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:23,600
Speaker 2: So.

800
00:46:23,960 --> 00:46:27,080
Speaker 3: On January twenty fourth, fifteen thirty six, the English King

801
00:46:27,120 --> 00:46:31,120
Speaker 3: Henry the Eighth was knocked off of his horse during

802
00:46:31,239 --> 00:46:35,600
Speaker 3: a jousting event at a tournament, and he lost consciousness

803
00:46:35,600 --> 00:46:38,560
Speaker 3: for a few hours. And as a result of this fall,

804
00:46:38,920 --> 00:46:42,640
Speaker 3: he sustained a number of injuries, which essentially led to

805
00:46:43,080 --> 00:46:46,440
Speaker 3: pain and various downstream health problems for the rest of

806
00:46:46,440 --> 00:46:48,320
Speaker 3: his life. I think he lived another ten or eleven

807
00:46:48,400 --> 00:46:52,600
Speaker 3: years after this. And what's interesting is that around this time,

808
00:46:53,320 --> 00:46:56,680
Speaker 3: records and chronicles of Henry's reign note a shift in

809
00:46:56,760 --> 00:47:01,240
Speaker 3: the king's personality. It seems that sometime around here Henry

810
00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:07,399
Speaker 3: really started to become more paranoid and suspicious and increasingly tyrannical.

811
00:47:08,160 --> 00:47:11,840
Speaker 3: Now there are multiple historical hypotheses to explain what was

812
00:47:11,880 --> 00:47:12,720
Speaker 3: going on with Henry.

813
00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:12,920
Speaker 2: Here.

814
00:47:13,160 --> 00:47:15,279
Speaker 3: I found another paper. I was just looking around and

815
00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:17,000
Speaker 3: found another paper that was like, well, what if there

816
00:47:17,080 --> 00:47:20,000
Speaker 3: was like a lead poisoning thing, you know, who knows,

817
00:47:20,040 --> 00:47:22,680
Speaker 3: But so what they're about to say is not the

818
00:47:22,719 --> 00:47:27,279
Speaker 3: only possible explanation. But the authors discussed the idea that

819
00:47:27,440 --> 00:47:31,200
Speaker 3: what if Henry's injuries and the pursuant health problems in

820
00:47:31,239 --> 00:47:34,840
Speaker 3: the years that followed made him into that type of person,

821
00:47:34,920 --> 00:47:38,920
Speaker 3: made him into a person who quote believed everyone, including

822
00:47:38,920 --> 00:47:44,640
Speaker 3: his court members and close ones, were untrustworthy and mean spirited.

823
00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:49,799
Speaker 3: So coming to the actual experiment here, we already have

824
00:47:49,840 --> 00:47:53,239
Speaker 3: evidence that cynicism tends in multiple ways to lead to

825
00:47:53,360 --> 00:47:56,520
Speaker 3: poor health. But to read from the author's abstract quote,

826
00:47:56,760 --> 00:48:00,480
Speaker 3: the present research proposes that poor health might represent both

827
00:48:00,520 --> 00:48:05,680
Speaker 3: a consequence and a source of cynicism. Using cross lagged

828
00:48:05,680 --> 00:48:10,000
Speaker 3: path analyzes, we documented bi directional associations between health and

829
00:48:10,040 --> 00:48:14,520
Speaker 3: cynicism in a nationally representative sample of Germans study one

830
00:48:14,680 --> 00:48:18,000
Speaker 3: and a large example of the American Elderly Study two.

831
00:48:18,719 --> 00:48:22,560
Speaker 3: Cynical individuals were more likely to develop health problems, and

832
00:48:22,640 --> 00:48:26,680
Speaker 3: poor health promoted the development of a cynical worldview over time,

833
00:48:27,920 --> 00:48:31,000
Speaker 3: and so these health status evaluations were done both with

834
00:48:31,080 --> 00:48:34,680
Speaker 3: self report surveys and with objective physical measures by third

835
00:48:34,680 --> 00:48:38,160
Speaker 3: party administrators, and they found the effect was robust even

836
00:48:38,160 --> 00:48:41,640
Speaker 3: when the author is controlled for the effects of depression.

837
00:48:42,520 --> 00:48:46,600
Speaker 3: So in their analysis, the authors actually propose a mechanism

838
00:48:46,680 --> 00:48:50,640
Speaker 3: by which cynicism and poor health ratchet one another up

839
00:48:50,760 --> 00:48:55,120
Speaker 3: in a vicious cycle. So cynicism tends to lead to

840
00:48:55,160 --> 00:48:58,560
Speaker 3: your health getting worse. When your health gets worse, it

841
00:48:58,640 --> 00:49:02,960
Speaker 3: imposes constrains on your life. You know, this is a

842
00:49:03,400 --> 00:49:05,239
Speaker 3: I think a lot of people probably like when you've

843
00:49:05,239 --> 00:49:08,040
Speaker 3: had a medical condition or something. It's not just like

844
00:49:08,160 --> 00:49:12,200
Speaker 3: the direct pain caused by the condition, it's also the

845
00:49:12,239 --> 00:49:15,080
Speaker 3: way it limits your freedom to do what you want

846
00:49:15,080 --> 00:49:19,319
Speaker 3: to do. That can be so frustrating and so painful. So,

847
00:49:19,480 --> 00:49:23,040
Speaker 3: you know, medical medical problems can directly limit your freedom.

848
00:49:23,760 --> 00:49:26,120
Speaker 3: They can take away your sense of control over your

849
00:49:26,160 --> 00:49:29,280
Speaker 3: own fate. They can make you more dependent on others.

850
00:49:29,840 --> 00:49:33,439
Speaker 3: And this constrained status, the authors think, may in turn

851
00:49:33,600 --> 00:49:40,839
Speaker 3: activate quote self protection strategies including suspiciousness and hostility, contributing

852
00:49:40,880 --> 00:49:44,800
Speaker 3: to the endorsement of a cynical worldview. So in this model,

853
00:49:45,400 --> 00:49:49,600
Speaker 3: health problems make you feel constrained and vulnerable, which makes

854
00:49:49,600 --> 00:49:53,600
Speaker 3: you defensive, which in some cases makes people cynical and

855
00:49:53,640 --> 00:49:56,680
Speaker 3: of course, the increased cynicism will tend on balance to

856
00:49:56,760 --> 00:49:58,360
Speaker 3: make health outcomes even worse.

857
00:49:58,960 --> 00:50:00,520
Speaker 2: And I'm doing some of the other part of that then,

858
00:50:00,600 --> 00:50:03,240
Speaker 2: is yet you're not going out then and like making

859
00:50:03,280 --> 00:50:09,000
Speaker 2: new friends, engaging in friendships and you know, family relationships

860
00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:09,799
Speaker 2: that you already have.

861
00:50:10,200 --> 00:50:13,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, we're taking part in activities that make you feel fulfilled.

862
00:50:13,880 --> 00:50:16,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so yeah, it becomes this visious feedback loop.

863
00:50:16,560 --> 00:50:20,759
Speaker 3: I say, even apart from the health consequences, I think

864
00:50:20,760 --> 00:50:25,040
Speaker 3: this is very interesting to find this association between cynicism

865
00:50:25,239 --> 00:50:29,760
Speaker 3: and a perception of constraint. That cynicism seems to bloom

866
00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:32,359
Speaker 3: when it is watered by the feeling that you are

867
00:50:32,400 --> 00:50:34,680
Speaker 3: not free to do what you want and do not

868
00:50:34,840 --> 00:50:45,400
Speaker 3: have control over your life.

869
00:50:36,880 --> 00:50:37,080
Speaker 2: Yeah.

870
00:50:47,120 --> 00:50:49,000
Speaker 3: There's one more thing I want to talk about before

871
00:50:49,040 --> 00:50:51,359
Speaker 3: we have to wrap up this part today, and that

872
00:50:51,520 --> 00:50:55,719
Speaker 3: is cynicism and other life outcomes. So here's a kind

873
00:50:55,719 --> 00:50:58,880
Speaker 3: of irony. If you were to ask me, is there

874
00:50:58,920 --> 00:51:03,040
Speaker 3: any realm in which is correlated with better outcomes for

875
00:51:03,080 --> 00:51:06,759
Speaker 3: a person? Does cynicism ever like help you? I might

876
00:51:06,800 --> 00:51:11,480
Speaker 3: have guessed without reading anything, maybe in like material success

877
00:51:11,600 --> 00:51:14,600
Speaker 3: in career and business, you know, because there's like an

878
00:51:14,760 --> 00:51:18,080
Speaker 3: archetype character we all have in our heads, the cynical

879
00:51:18,560 --> 00:51:23,280
Speaker 3: materialist shark, like a business leader or career ladder climber

880
00:51:23,719 --> 00:51:26,160
Speaker 3: who trusts no one, has a dark view of human

881
00:51:26,280 --> 00:51:28,240
Speaker 3: nature and who will do anything to succeed.

882
00:51:28,440 --> 00:51:31,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is like the TV reality show trope of

883
00:51:31,600 --> 00:51:33,560
Speaker 2: that I'm not here to make friends guy.

884
00:51:33,480 --> 00:51:36,640
Speaker 3: Right exactly, So you imagine that guy that I'm not

885
00:51:36,680 --> 00:51:39,040
Speaker 3: here to make friends guy gets ahead because that's how

886
00:51:39,040 --> 00:51:42,400
Speaker 3: they present themselves. Right now, there is no doubt you

887
00:51:42,440 --> 00:51:45,840
Speaker 3: will find individual examples of quite cynical people who have

888
00:51:45,880 --> 00:51:50,000
Speaker 3: found material success. But is this correlation generally true? Is

889
00:51:50,040 --> 00:51:53,400
Speaker 3: it true on average most of the time according to

890
00:51:53,440 --> 00:51:55,640
Speaker 3: the research I was reading. Nope, not at all.

891
00:51:56,600 --> 00:51:56,680
Speaker 2: So.

892
00:51:57,080 --> 00:52:02,480
Speaker 3: One study by Stavrova, Ilibract and Dungning Wren called cynical

893
00:52:02,520 --> 00:52:06,359
Speaker 3: people desire power but rarely acquire it, exploring the role

894
00:52:06,400 --> 00:52:08,960
Speaker 3: of cynicism in leadership attainment. This was in the British

895
00:52:09,040 --> 00:52:13,160
Speaker 3: Journal of Psychology twenty twenty four. This found that cynical

896
00:52:13,160 --> 00:52:16,680
Speaker 3: people have a greater desire for power than non cynical

897
00:52:16,680 --> 00:52:20,960
Speaker 3: people do they tend to seek dominance, however, quote a

898
00:52:21,000 --> 00:52:25,160
Speaker 3: study of virtual teams showed that more cynical individuals were

899
00:52:25,320 --> 00:52:29,319
Speaker 3: less likely to emerge as group leaders, and a perspective

900
00:52:29,360 --> 00:52:32,319
Speaker 3: study of about nine thousand employees followed for up to

901
00:52:32,360 --> 00:52:36,600
Speaker 3: ten years showed that cynicism predicted a lower likelihood of

902
00:52:36,640 --> 00:52:41,520
Speaker 3: attaining a leadership position in organizations. So in these experiments,

903
00:52:41,600 --> 00:52:45,840
Speaker 3: cynicism means you want power more than the average person,

904
00:52:45,920 --> 00:52:50,160
Speaker 3: but you're actually less likely to acquire it. Okay, that's power.

905
00:52:50,280 --> 00:52:53,879
Speaker 3: How about money? Money and power, that's all anybody cares about,

906
00:52:53,920 --> 00:52:58,160
Speaker 3: maybe in the cynical worldview. But Stavrova and alebract found

907
00:52:58,360 --> 00:53:01,520
Speaker 3: in a study called Cynical Beliefs about Human Nature and Income,

908
00:53:02,080 --> 00:53:06,040
Speaker 3: Longitudinal and Cross Cultural Analyzes in the Journal of Personality

909
00:53:06,040 --> 00:53:10,600
Speaker 3: and Social Psychology in twenty sixteen. This looked at surveys

910
00:53:10,640 --> 00:53:13,759
Speaker 3: that were conducted over time, and the authors here found

911
00:53:13,800 --> 00:53:17,719
Speaker 3: that Americans who endorsed cynical beliefs about human nature think

912
00:53:17,760 --> 00:53:19,800
Speaker 3: you can't trust anybody. They're all going to stab you

913
00:53:19,840 --> 00:53:23,520
Speaker 3: in the back. These people actually made less money over time,

914
00:53:23,680 --> 00:53:26,960
Speaker 3: measured at intervals of two years and at nine years.

915
00:53:27,480 --> 00:53:31,680
Speaker 3: And then research on German workers also found cynicism undermined

916
00:53:31,719 --> 00:53:36,000
Speaker 3: income potential over a period of nine years. Now, why

917
00:53:36,040 --> 00:53:40,640
Speaker 3: would cynicism cut into a person's earning potential? You have

918
00:53:40,760 --> 00:53:43,200
Speaker 3: this idea that like the cynical person will you know

919
00:53:43,239 --> 00:53:45,120
Speaker 3: that they're not here to make friends, and so they'll

920
00:53:45,160 --> 00:53:48,600
Speaker 3: get the raise and all that. The authors here say

921
00:53:48,600 --> 00:53:51,480
Speaker 3: that it seems to be because cynicism, of course, is

922
00:53:51,560 --> 00:53:55,520
Speaker 3: characterized by low trust. So people high in cynicism miss

923
00:53:55,600 --> 00:53:59,160
Speaker 3: out on opportunities to cooperate, you know, they miss out

924
00:53:59,200 --> 00:54:03,200
Speaker 3: on opportunity to achieve mutual benefit by working together with

925
00:54:03,239 --> 00:54:06,240
Speaker 3: other people. And they also, I thought this was interesting

926
00:54:06,360 --> 00:54:11,200
Speaker 3: quote over invest in monitoring, control, and other means of

927
00:54:11,280 --> 00:54:16,239
Speaker 3: protection from potential exploitation. So when you're very cynical, you

928
00:54:16,360 --> 00:54:19,239
Speaker 3: not only miss out on chances to work together for

929
00:54:19,400 --> 00:54:23,520
Speaker 3: mutual benefit, you also waste a lot of your resources,

930
00:54:23,560 --> 00:54:27,480
Speaker 3: your time and energy and money on excessive efforts to

931
00:54:27,719 --> 00:54:29,320
Speaker 3: avoid being a sucker.

932
00:54:30,600 --> 00:54:33,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like you're you're always on the defense, right,

933
00:54:33,120 --> 00:54:35,360
Speaker 2: You're like, nice, try trying to get me to go

934
00:54:35,440 --> 00:54:39,880
Speaker 2: out to lunch with you coworkers. You're just stealing my

935
00:54:40,000 --> 00:54:41,440
Speaker 2: lunch break from me, that sort of thing.

936
00:54:41,480 --> 00:54:44,279
Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, yeah, what are they trying to get

937
00:54:44,320 --> 00:54:48,920
Speaker 3: out of me? Yeah? Okay, they want to be friends? Yeah,

938
00:54:49,000 --> 00:54:52,920
Speaker 3: so however, here I there is also an interesting example

939
00:54:53,280 --> 00:54:56,680
Speaker 3: in this study that illuminates the question of wind as

940
00:54:56,719 --> 00:55:00,759
Speaker 3: being cynical actually benefit a person, and the authors say

941
00:55:00,840 --> 00:55:04,200
Speaker 3: quote using survey data from forty one countries, it revealed

942
00:55:04,200 --> 00:55:07,400
Speaker 3: that the negative effect of cynical beliefs on income is

943
00:55:07,440 --> 00:55:12,560
Speaker 3: alleviated in sociocultural contexts with low levels of pro social behavior,

944
00:55:13,000 --> 00:55:17,960
Speaker 3: high homicide rates, and high overall societal cynicism levels. Holding

945
00:55:18,000 --> 00:55:22,879
Speaker 3: cynical beliefs about others has negative economic outcomes unless such

946
00:55:23,000 --> 00:55:27,759
Speaker 3: beliefs hold true. And so this connects to something that

947
00:55:27,800 --> 00:55:29,719
Speaker 3: we may have to explore as we go on. But

948
00:55:30,000 --> 00:55:33,279
Speaker 3: I think there's some truth to this idea. Cynicism is

949
00:55:33,719 --> 00:55:38,400
Speaker 3: harmful to the cynical individual in a cultural environment that

950
00:55:38,520 --> 00:55:42,719
Speaker 3: is less cynical, But cynicism appears to be more or

951
00:55:42,800 --> 00:55:46,800
Speaker 3: less harmful or maybe even helpful to the cynical individual

952
00:55:47,239 --> 00:55:51,360
Speaker 3: in a cultural environment that is more cynical, which should

953
00:55:51,400 --> 00:55:56,560
Speaker 3: obviously trouble us if we like, since increasing cynicism within

954
00:55:56,719 --> 00:55:59,640
Speaker 3: the culture that's bad in itself for lots of reasons,

955
00:56:00,080 --> 00:56:04,280
Speaker 3: but it also puts real pressure on each individual person

956
00:56:04,719 --> 00:56:07,960
Speaker 3: to be more cynical to adapt to the cynical environment,

957
00:56:08,360 --> 00:56:11,880
Speaker 3: so trust just ratchets down and down in one direction.

958
00:56:12,800 --> 00:56:17,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, so like the more life becomes the movie RoboCop. Yeah,

959
00:56:17,560 --> 00:56:20,000
Speaker 2: it's not just in terms of you know, technology obviously

960
00:56:20,040 --> 00:56:23,279
Speaker 2: and the you know, the crime that is a that

961
00:56:23,400 --> 00:56:27,439
Speaker 2: exists in that view of a futuristic Detroit, but also

962
00:56:27,560 --> 00:56:30,560
Speaker 2: just like it's a very cynical world and it seems

963
00:56:30,600 --> 00:56:32,880
Speaker 2: like the kind of place where where I mean we

964
00:56:32,920 --> 00:56:36,600
Speaker 2: see examples of this where the cynic rises and yeah,

965
00:56:36,640 --> 00:56:39,399
Speaker 2: you can imagine cynicism perhaps would protect you a little

966
00:56:39,440 --> 00:56:42,359
Speaker 2: bit from like random robot murders. Ah.

967
00:56:42,440 --> 00:56:45,319
Speaker 3: That's kind of interesting though, because on one hand, yeah,

968
00:56:45,320 --> 00:56:48,080
Speaker 3: it's like in reality, you might have to be more

969
00:56:48,120 --> 00:56:52,480
Speaker 3: cynical to get by in OCP controlled Detroit, but in

970
00:56:52,520 --> 00:56:54,879
Speaker 3: the movie you do really see people like benefiting from

971
00:56:55,080 --> 00:56:56,520
Speaker 3: mutual trust and cooperation.

972
00:56:56,760 --> 00:56:59,799
Speaker 2: Like yeah, yeah, like I feel like you do see,

973
00:57:00,800 --> 00:57:03,960
Speaker 2: I feel like in many of your more cynical worlds

974
00:57:04,239 --> 00:57:06,839
Speaker 2: in a work of fiction. And to be clear, there

975
00:57:06,840 --> 00:57:09,640
Speaker 2: are works out there that are just like ultimately very

976
00:57:11,480 --> 00:57:15,520
Speaker 2: very cynical and maybe very nihilistic in their vision. But

977
00:57:15,600 --> 00:57:17,320
Speaker 2: a lot of times, like ultimately, I mean, you've got

978
00:57:17,320 --> 00:57:22,520
Speaker 2: to invest the viewer, the listener the reader in some way,

979
00:57:22,600 --> 00:57:26,880
Speaker 2: and so therefore they often involve a cynical figure coming

980
00:57:26,920 --> 00:57:29,360
Speaker 2: out of their cynicism a little bit, you know, like

981
00:57:29,400 --> 00:57:33,040
Speaker 2: maybe it's a noir you know, hard boiled detective story.

982
00:57:33,080 --> 00:57:36,640
Speaker 2: You have a very like world weary, cynical detective. Like

983
00:57:36,680 --> 00:57:39,760
Speaker 2: there's there's often got to be something, some light that

984
00:57:39,880 --> 00:57:42,920
Speaker 2: is bringing them out of that darkness at least for

985
00:57:42,960 --> 00:57:43,440
Speaker 2: a little bit.

986
00:57:43,640 --> 00:57:47,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, unfortunately, I feel not unfortunately, I guess, I mean

987
00:57:47,600 --> 00:57:50,960
Speaker 3: I like these stories too, but oh, I think the

988
00:57:51,040 --> 00:57:53,440
Speaker 3: shape of a lot of these noir stories is like

989
00:57:53,520 --> 00:57:56,400
Speaker 3: somebody is cynical at the beginning, they put their trust

990
00:57:56,440 --> 00:57:58,560
Speaker 3: in someone, there's a light at the end of the tunnel,

991
00:57:58,560 --> 00:58:00,480
Speaker 3: and then the light is snuffed out and they end

992
00:58:00,520 --> 00:58:02,080
Speaker 3: up even more cynical at the end.

993
00:58:02,280 --> 00:58:03,320
Speaker 2: Yeah it's Chinatown.

994
00:58:03,640 --> 00:58:06,360
Speaker 3: But hey, can I can I offer I think an

995
00:58:06,400 --> 00:58:09,440
Speaker 3: actually really positive spin on a lot of this research

996
00:58:09,480 --> 00:58:12,720
Speaker 3: about all these negative effects of cynicism. There is an

997
00:58:12,720 --> 00:58:16,320
Speaker 3: implied inverse in most of these which is that it

998
00:58:16,400 --> 00:58:22,480
Speaker 3: really emphasizes how much mutual trust and cooperation benefits our lives.

999
00:58:23,000 --> 00:58:25,560
Speaker 3: That like, when you cut these things out, here is

1000
00:58:25,640 --> 00:58:29,360
Speaker 3: all of the negative consequences that flow in mm hmm.

1001
00:58:29,840 --> 00:58:32,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so these are these are things we need

1002
00:58:32,240 --> 00:58:35,680
Speaker 2: to value while we have them, and and nurture them

1003
00:58:35,720 --> 00:58:37,400
Speaker 2: while they're in our lives and seek them out of

1004
00:58:37,400 --> 00:58:38,240
Speaker 2: there if they're missing.

1005
00:58:38,440 --> 00:58:40,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, and try to grow them where they're where they

1006
00:58:40,560 --> 00:58:41,240
Speaker 3: are faltering.

1007
00:58:42,040 --> 00:58:45,760
Speaker 2: Don't skip game night this week or whatever is game

1008
00:58:45,840 --> 00:58:48,320
Speaker 2: night in your life, you know. Yeah, these these are

1009
00:58:48,360 --> 00:58:49,320
Speaker 2: things worth holding on.

1010
00:58:49,240 --> 00:58:52,760
Speaker 3: To by God, trust somebody this week. Yeah, Okay, Well

1011
00:58:52,760 --> 00:58:55,280
Speaker 3: should we cap part one there? We're definitely going to

1012
00:58:55,320 --> 00:58:56,000
Speaker 3: come back for more.

1013
00:58:56,160 --> 00:58:58,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a lot more to discuss, so we'll be

1014
00:58:58,320 --> 00:59:00,640
Speaker 2: back in part two. But I think already there's a

1015
00:59:00,640 --> 00:59:03,520
Speaker 2: lot of food for thought here, so already feel free

1016
00:59:03,520 --> 00:59:07,680
Speaker 2: to write in if you have thoughts on capital C cynicism,

1017
00:59:07,840 --> 00:59:10,680
Speaker 2: lowercase C cynicism, or anything else that's come up in

1018
00:59:10,680 --> 00:59:13,600
Speaker 2: this episode. We'd like to remind everyone out there that

1019
00:59:13,880 --> 00:59:15,960
Speaker 2: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is primarily a science and

1020
00:59:16,000 --> 00:59:20,680
Speaker 2: culture podcast, with core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays. On Wednesdays,

1021
00:59:20,680 --> 00:59:23,320
Speaker 2: we do a short form episode, and on Fridays we

1022
00:59:23,360 --> 00:59:25,680
Speaker 2: set aside most serious concerns to just talk about a

1023
00:59:25,720 --> 00:59:28,880
Speaker 2: weird film on weird house cinema. Of note, if all

1024
00:59:28,920 --> 00:59:32,520
Speaker 2: goes according to plan, This Friday we will discuss the

1025
00:59:32,720 --> 00:59:36,680
Speaker 2: two hundred film selection for Weird House Cinema. We picked

1026
00:59:36,680 --> 00:59:39,439
Speaker 2: out quite a doozy, so tune in for that if

1027
00:59:39,680 --> 00:59:40,440
Speaker 2: that interests you.

1028
00:59:40,800 --> 00:59:44,600
Speaker 3: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway.

1029
00:59:44,920 --> 00:59:46,360
Speaker 3: If you would like to get in touch with us

1030
00:59:46,360 --> 00:59:48,760
Speaker 3: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest

1031
00:59:48,760 --> 00:59:50,760
Speaker 3: a topic for the future, or just to say hello,

1032
00:59:50,880 --> 00:59:53,600
Speaker 3: you can email us at contact stuff to Blow your

1033
00:59:53,600 --> 01:00:01,520
Speaker 3: Mind dot com.

1034
01:00:01,640 --> 01:00:04,600
Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For

1035
01:00:04,680 --> 01:00:08,520
Speaker 1: more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1036
01:00:08,600 --> 01:00:24,360
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