Speaker 1: I'm going to create an environment that is so toxic,
Speaker 1: and they really did. They really did create an environment
Speaker 1: that was so toxic and yet fruitful. I'm starting a
Speaker 1: rumor that Kate Bush is a gleek. You know, Um,
Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't know if that's that's if
Speaker 1: that's true, but we love to say shitty things for
Speaker 1: attention here on like a virgin. That's true, and this
Speaker 1: episode will be no different because we're talking about Glee.
Speaker 1: We're just we were warming up right before we're doing
Speaker 1: our our scales. O. Wait, wait, we need to actually
Speaker 1: do a kind of red leather, yellow leather, red leather.
Speaker 1: What was what sells seashells by the seashore? What did
Speaker 1: you do to that? Really ugly? Should we do a
Speaker 1: quick ground that thought? You? Neque New York, New York?
Speaker 1: You know, that's really moment. Yeah, this is really cursed,
Speaker 1: which is very appropriate because today we're talking about Glee,
Speaker 1: the seminole Ryan Murphy TV show, and we have none
Speaker 1: other than the first openly gay porn star and writer
Speaker 1: Tie Mitchell here today to talk with us all about
Speaker 1: Glee It's impact on TV culture, queer representation. Because this
Speaker 1: is like a Virgin the show where we give yesterday's
Speaker 1: pop culture today's takes. I'm ros Dam and I'm fran Toronto.
Speaker 1: This Pride month, we were blessed by what I will
Speaker 1: say is one of the best gay albums of all
Speaker 1: time and definitely an album of the year, from um
Speaker 1: Muna's self titled second album, Muna Um. I'm in love
Speaker 1: with it. I've been listening to it NonStop. Actually on
Speaker 1: the flight to New York from l A. I just
Speaker 1: had it playing on a loop while I was sleeping
Speaker 1: for the entire flight. So now I feel like it
Speaker 1: has settled into my very bones. And I'm gonna say
Speaker 1: my favorite track right now currently is Nurse High Too.
Speaker 1: It's so good, it's like really synthy. Um. I really
Speaker 1: like how their production has evolved, especially like I think
Speaker 1: the songwriting and like the musicians ship has always been there.
Speaker 1: But I think maybe because you know, mun As signed
Speaker 1: to Phoebe Bridges label Satisfactory Records, and I think maybe
Speaker 1: like getting them like like helping them out with production
Speaker 1: was maybe part of that, or just maybe they have
Speaker 1: access to like a better studio now. I don't know,
Speaker 1: but just realized that saddest factory is a double entendo
Speaker 1: for satisfactory. I didn't know that good if I did not, anyway,
Speaker 1: that's very Phoebe. But yeah, it's very Phoebe. Um again
Speaker 1: Runners high Runners hide for me. I mean it feels
Speaker 1: very like fruit fru or like image and heat a
Speaker 1: little bit, which is the biggest compliment, biggest we can give.
Speaker 1: And then like my other fave, Solid with like those
Speaker 1: harmonized vocals that they are so known for, reminds me
Speaker 1: of very like Um, very like Wilson Phillips, like Um
Speaker 1: eighties nineties era, like girl rock, you know girl in
Speaker 1: quotes rock. Um right, it would definitely play at like
Speaker 1: a wedding scene in a queer movie. Yeah, they them
Speaker 1: rock if you will Um and I yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: I I love I'm so excited about it. I remember Um,
Speaker 1: after shooting the Silk Fun music video with them, they
Speaker 1: had like a bonfire at Naomi and Joe's house. Um,
Speaker 1: and I remember we were talking about the album and
Speaker 1: what they were excited about. This is eons ago and
Speaker 1: I had been listening to Silk Fun all day, so
Speaker 1: I was like addicted to it because it's such an
Speaker 1: earworm and I mean that and it's a term of endearment,
Speaker 1: and um, they were They were like, oh, we want
Speaker 1: to show you this other song just to see what
Speaker 1: you think. And they played what I Want and I
Speaker 1: remember being like, oh, this is like such a bop
Speaker 1: and they were like, well, Silk Chifn is for the
Speaker 1: girls and what I Want is for the boys. We
Speaker 1: love the musical binary love binaries. Yes, Um, that's very
Speaker 1: exciting speaking of something that's for the girls. It was
Speaker 1: just announced that Emma Roberts is joining The Spider Man
Speaker 1: SeeU in Madam Webb alongside Dakota Johnson and Sydney Sweeney.
Speaker 1: So Sony really said, gays, you will be watching this
Speaker 1: superhero movie whether you like it or not, right, And
Speaker 1: I mean I'm here for Sydney Sweeney obviously. Um, Emma
Speaker 1: Roberts has never been my girl. Like, I really can't
Speaker 1: tell the difference between her and all the other blonde
Speaker 1: cast members of American Horror Story, right, who are all
Speaker 1: who are all nepotism babies. Emma Roberts is Julia Roberts's niece,
Speaker 1: Reilly Lord is Carrie Fisher's daughter. Um, Tessa Familia is
Speaker 1: vera familiar sister, like they are all just related to
Speaker 1: someone famous. They all look exactly the same. But I'm
Speaker 1: totally behind this casting. I love that, like because I
Speaker 1: think Spider Man is like a very just like boy
Speaker 1: centric superhero universe. Um, except you know, we got Spy
Speaker 1: or Gwen into the spider verse. But I really loved
Speaker 1: the idea of like force feminizing spider Man, state sanctions
Speaker 1: and spider Man it's like your favorite superhero absolutely without
Speaker 1: a die. I mean, is that just because he's a twink?
Speaker 1: I mean, I I it's probably because he shoots come
Speaker 1: out of his hands, but I feel like for me, Yeah,
Speaker 1: sorry for the visual, but I think you know I
Speaker 1: love an underdog story. I have no shame in loving
Speaker 1: Spider Man, even though it has been done to death. Well, um,
Speaker 1: something that did not make me shoot come out of
Speaker 1: my hands, but did make me feel really ashamed of
Speaker 1: my love. That was um to two weeks ago. I
Speaker 1: did something really dark, which was I watched the entire
Speaker 1: final season of Love Victor in twenty four hours the
Speaker 1: day it was released. Wait, I don't know that you
Speaker 1: watched at all. With the whole over ours in twenty
Speaker 1: four hours, that's really half an hour episodes. It's very easy. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I did it in two sittings. I did once watch
Speaker 1: a season of Love Victor in one sitting as well.
Speaker 1: Really a story that I told about our live show
Speaker 1: this this past this yesterday. It was, okay, I'll give
Speaker 1: I'll give the abre I'm going to I'm going to
Speaker 1: create editions, but I would love to hear you. Okay,
Speaker 1: France took too much ammodium and was no, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: no no, no, give me storytelling value. I'm going to
Speaker 1: break it down. Fran, do it, Phoebe Maker do it.
Speaker 1: Fran was okay, I'm gonna do it. Okay. So Fran
Speaker 1: was on Fire Island wanted to bottom and so took
Speaker 1: an ammonium but accidentally took two um and so had
Speaker 1: a hard brick of ship in there and there colon
Speaker 1: and there were no doctors on Fire Island famously has
Speaker 1: no doctors. So had to spend eight hours sitting in
Speaker 1: front of a TV watching Love Victor reclined, unable to
Speaker 1: recline because reclining or laying down in any capacity hurt.
Speaker 1: Because however, the you know, amorphous rock like turd was
Speaker 1: adjusted into like my upper or lower intestine had like
Speaker 1: it felt like the way it was large, like hurt
Speaker 1: if I would move and also couldn't eat, could only
Speaker 1: sit and watch Love Victor. I had to face time
Speaker 1: a doctor and the doctor was like, do not under
Speaker 1: any circumstances, so that only gatorade. All that to say,
Speaker 1: Love Victor was um good. Well, maybe if I have
Speaker 1: a medical emergency that keeps me in bed against my
Speaker 1: will for eight hours, then I will I will watch it. Um.
Speaker 1: The stupidest part of it, though, is that in the
Speaker 1: final episode, Victor gets an award from his school for
Speaker 1: being gay, which I don't think is a good thing,
Speaker 1: although the show kind of frames that is like this
Speaker 1: is kind of bad, but like ultimately kind of good
Speaker 1: and like, I don't know, I want a scholarship for
Speaker 1: being gay in high school. Basically I didn't even apply
Speaker 1: for it and I got it, but they were just
Speaker 1: kind of like, how much money was it? Actually? I
Speaker 1: also don't think he got I don't think he got money.
Speaker 1: He just got an award. Oh well, that's fucking stupid.
Speaker 1: I something that I remember about the Love Victor franchises,
Speaker 1: they try to paint them as like a working class family,
Speaker 1: and that that just was not I mean, if you
Speaker 1: any context clues, like in the show, you would know
Speaker 1: that they are probably pretty middle class. Another thing I watched,
Speaker 1: unfortunately was Elvis. Oh, you didn't like it? It was
Speaker 1: so bad. Really. First of all, it's two hours and
Speaker 1: forty minutes long. Well, I mean, it is bass and
Speaker 1: it's just so disinterested in being about Elvis's life and
Speaker 1: is much more interested in just being a bas Lerman movie. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm such a bass stand so that doesn't sound that
Speaker 1: bad to me. No, But like it's style over substance,
Speaker 1: but the style isn't good. I love things that are
Speaker 1: style over something, but the style has to be good.
Speaker 1: The styles not was not good. You didn't like the
Speaker 1: the Casey Musgraves cover, No, because what the point when
Speaker 1: that happens? Like, I want to hear the actual song
Speaker 1: in this Elvis biopic, not a cover of it, And
Speaker 1: that was another problem I had with it. So the
Speaker 1: movie ends when Elvis dies and then there's like a
Speaker 1: clip montage of the real Elvis, which I hate when
Speaker 1: that's done in biopics because it just makes me think
Speaker 1: I should have just watched a documentary. And I also
Speaker 1: think it undercuts the performance of the actor who's been
Speaker 1: playing this character for the last almost three hours and
Speaker 1: the movie did he die on the toilet? No, what
Speaker 1: I didn't even know that that happened. All they say
Speaker 1: is that he had a heart attack. Literally for me, like,
Speaker 1: I think it's one of the most well known facts
Speaker 1: of Elvis that he died from. I had no idea.
Speaker 1: Well he did um after probably eating one of those
Speaker 1: disgusting peanut butter and bacon sandwiches. Like peanut butter and bacon.
Speaker 1: That sounds incredible. I mean that he would famously like
Speaker 1: send a private jet to go pick up this like
Speaker 1: special sandwich that was made at some sandwich shop that
Speaker 1: had it was a full French baguette that was scooped
Speaker 1: out and filled with a pound of peanut butter, a
Speaker 1: pound of bacon, bananas, and I think honey or something
Speaker 1: like that, and fried. I want one of those. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean it is actually before I thought it was
Speaker 1: really good. We should make them on Fire Island this
Speaker 1: week and then maybe you'll be full of shit again.
Speaker 1: Well I would never take two emmodium as the box
Speaker 1: instructed ever again. Okay, Basilerman maybe had the second highest
Speaker 1: anticipated film of this weekend after Buzz Lightyear. The Light
Speaker 1: Year movie which you saw. I did see. Um, I've
Speaker 1: been seeing a lot of movies just because I have
Speaker 1: a lot more time on my hands. And now that
Speaker 1: is you have the mc stuffs rewards membership, you are
Speaker 1: cashing in. Mom. So I saw a light Year. It
Speaker 1: was fine. It was not great, it was not bad.
Speaker 1: It was just a totally fine animated movie. Um. I
Speaker 1: don't have a lot of nostalgia tied to toy story. No.
Speaker 1: I mean a lot of people say, like, oh, it's
Speaker 1: one of the greatest animated films ever created. But and
Speaker 1: it's I guess, like the the um framing of it
Speaker 1: is kind of interesting because they said, like the way
Speaker 1: they frame it is that this is the movie that
Speaker 1: Andy saw. That the toy interesting. So like at the
Speaker 1: beginning of the movie, it says Andy saw, like his
Speaker 1: favorite movie, this is that movie. I love that they
Speaker 1: are trying to convince us that there was a movie
Speaker 1: that had one a black person in it and to
Speaker 1: a gay kiss, a gay gay lesbian, a black lesbian,
Speaker 1: a black gay character. I don't listen. I know that
Speaker 1: there was this whole controversy about the gay kiss. I
Speaker 1: don't even remember if they kissed in the movie. That
Speaker 1: fucking sucks. But also it's not surprising at all. But
Speaker 1: I do remember, like what I thought was nice about
Speaker 1: it was that, So the whole story is that buzz.
Speaker 1: It's like going on these missions and they only take
Speaker 1: a couple of minutes for him, but on the planet
Speaker 1: that he's coming from, it takes like four years. So
Speaker 1: when he comes back for the first time, his like
Speaker 1: partner is like, oh, I got married while you were gone,
Speaker 1: and he says, oh, who is what's her name? Like,
Speaker 1: and there's no kind of like mo like weird moment.
Speaker 1: He it's just like very casual, which I really appreciated,
Speaker 1: Like I think that is a good representation, especially in
Speaker 1: a kids movie. And they show her with her wife
Speaker 1: and like her her son and like eventual grandchild. Um.
Speaker 1: But this is like the first gay kiss in a
Speaker 1: Disney I'm just so tired of Disney being like this
Speaker 1: is our first game, like this is our first rim
Speaker 1: job scene in the Pixar movie, and every single time
Speaker 1: it's like a gay time's like headline Instagram post. And
Speaker 1: I saw one the other day that was like Disney
Speaker 1: to premiere the first openly gay teen romance, and I
Speaker 1: was like, well, first of all that would suggest that
Speaker 1: they were closeted and stealth teen romances in previous Disney film.
Speaker 1: None of this, None of these words are in the Bible.
Speaker 1: Like I'm so done with the first, Like you know what,
Speaker 1: this is the first fucking on air felching on a
Speaker 1: podcast about Buckle Up Virgins for the Virgins listening yesterday,
Speaker 1: we are talking about Glee, the Fox Ryan Murphy TV
Speaker 1: show that had an ironclad grip on pop culture in
Speaker 1: the like early the Obama era, the Obama Oh my god,
Speaker 1: if if you exactly, if you want, if you want
Speaker 1: to encapsulation of what the Obama era was like in media,
Speaker 1: it was Glee. I feel that way. I feel that
Speaker 1: Glee is the quintess Glee and True Blood are the
Speaker 1: quintessential cultural products of the Obama. We should have done
Speaker 1: this episode on True Blood. I mean, we can talk
Speaker 1: about True Blood too, but they're kind of two sides
Speaker 1: of the same coin, and they are absolutely in conversation
Speaker 1: with each other. Well because they're both like really really
Speaker 1: off the rails kind of like psychotic, yes, psychotically told um,
Speaker 1: you know, drama soaps that appealed to you know, also
Speaker 1: anyone who doesn't know, Ty, can you give like a
Speaker 1: t l DR very brief summary of what Glee is about.
Speaker 1: Glee is a musical comedy on that aired on Fox
Speaker 1: about a high school glee club made up of losers
Speaker 1: and rejects and then very quickly also popular people competing
Speaker 1: for various titles that got higher in stakes as the
Speaker 1: show went on, and who were continually um attempted to
Speaker 1: sabotage at sabotage by Plankton asque super Lynd played by
Speaker 1: Jane Lynch, Sue Sylvester say her name, Um. Yeah. The
Speaker 1: inciting incident of it is that the cool kid at
Speaker 1: school gets blackmailed by his teacher into joining the glee club,
Speaker 1: thus creating this sort of tension between the rejects and
Speaker 1: the cool kid, and Lea Michelle is a reject and
Speaker 1: the guy is the cool kid. Yes, Um and more
Speaker 1: cool people joined the glee club because the cheerleading coach,
Speaker 1: Sue Sylvester sends them in as like um spies, but
Speaker 1: then you know they actually like it. It ran for
Speaker 1: five seasons six seven. I believe I only watched two.
Speaker 1: I want to be clear about that going into the beginning.
Speaker 1: I have only watched two seasons of Glee. I have
Speaker 1: watched clips of other seasons of it, but that was
Speaker 1: all I could do. I'm going to um muscle through
Speaker 1: a blanket statement that y'all can you know, help me
Speaker 1: maybe fix if it's an act. But I feel like
Speaker 1: Glee came onto the scene at like another wave of
Speaker 1: like gay representation post Will and Grace that was trying
Speaker 1: to that. That I think created a new era of
Speaker 1: like gaze on TV that were not Jack. You know,
Speaker 1: there was a lot of Jack I think still in
Speaker 1: the show. Yeah, because Chris Colfer's character like is just
Speaker 1: a different version of that kind of gay. But the
Speaker 1: thing about Ryan Murphy's comedic stylings is that he really
Speaker 1: was maybe not Ryan Murphy specifically, but the Glees comedic
Speaker 1: stillings were like very like crass. They weren't afraid to
Speaker 1: make like really inappropriate jokes. I think that a lot
Speaker 1: was incredibly problematic and afraid to do that. That's the
Speaker 1: thing is the show developed a social conscience over the
Speaker 1: course of its run, and that's why that's part of
Speaker 1: why I feel like it's really quinte essentially like an
Speaker 1: Obama Obama agricultural product, is that the show kind of
Speaker 1: became reactive to itself and to feedback to it, and
Speaker 1: became a show that was very self aware about a
Speaker 1: certain kind of responsibility towards representation. Yes, yes, because I
Speaker 1: do think when it started, I remember the first episode
Speaker 1: previewed a couple of months before the actual season premiered.
Speaker 1: I think it was maybe like before the finale of
Speaker 1: a season of American Idol or something. It was American
Speaker 1: Idol Area, And I remember watching it with my roommate
Speaker 1: and we thought it was the coolest, most transgressive thing ever.
Speaker 1: And I do think the early episodes of that show
Speaker 1: are pretty radical for what was on TV at the time,
Speaker 1: and like the kind of jokes they were making, um,
Speaker 1: the audience that they were catering to, the identities that
Speaker 1: they were centering. But you're right, and that it became
Speaker 1: too self aware, um, and too scared of saying the
Speaker 1: wrong thing. I can only speak for like the first season,
Speaker 1: I feel like the gay characters in the show, we're
Speaker 1: like pretty neutered, like because it was like still for
Speaker 1: like a really young audience, neutered and tortured. Like the
Speaker 1: whole season two is about Kurt being bullied. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: a lot of like bullying stuff. However, I remember, I
Speaker 1: think very it gets better in my mind. I remember
Speaker 1: hating the show when it like when I watched that
Speaker 1: after I'm finishing the first season. But I do remember
Speaker 1: feeling like I hadn't really watched something that had multiple
Speaker 1: gay characters, and also like characters that or rather storylines
Speaker 1: that were invested in the romance were like in something
Speaker 1: like Will and Grace, like or other sitcom sitcom you
Speaker 1: kind of vibes it's like they will never talk about
Speaker 1: sex and there was like no kissing really on Will
Speaker 1: and Grace or whatever. Obviously that was like the dawn
Speaker 1: of like a lot of gay people on TV. But
Speaker 1: kurt storyline was really I mean, I think if you
Speaker 1: follow kurt storyline over the course of the show, you
Speaker 1: do see that kind of self awareness in the sense
Speaker 1: that like Kurt starts out as like bullied, and then
Speaker 1: the bullying gets worse, and then his relationship with father
Speaker 1: gets strained, and then he meets Blaine from the Warblers,
Speaker 1: and we get to watch a gay character get everything
Speaker 1: that he wants, basically, like he restores his relationship with
Speaker 1: his dad, he has a boyfriend who is beautiful, he
Speaker 1: like goes off to the Warblers Dalton Academy and like
Speaker 1: gets to gets to have like a community of like
Speaker 1: young gay kids or or at least gay tolerant people.
Speaker 1: He moves off to New York with Leah Michelle like
Speaker 1: becomes friends with Sarah Jessica Parker. Wait, does Sarah Jessica
Speaker 1: Parker play herself? She comes and sings Let's have a
Speaker 1: Kiki mashed up with the Turkey Lurkey song for herself
Speaker 1: or she playing a character? She always plays herself, really,
Speaker 1: she kind of does. There were some great guest stars,
Speaker 1: Like I know Kate Hudson was on it for a minute,
Speaker 1: Me and he leaks. First season, you had Adena and
Speaker 1: Kristen Adina Menzel playing Liam Michelle's mother was one of
Speaker 1: the best casting choices I think ever. Demilovado, Lindsay Lohan,
Speaker 1: Perez Hilton, Britney Spears was on this. She was on
Speaker 1: the Britney episode, like very briefly, just they let her
Speaker 1: make a quick cameo and the conservators of the conservatorship, um,
Speaker 1: we were going to watch an episode of Glee the
Speaker 1: other night. It's famously not on any streaming platform for
Speaker 1: a while. Yeah, it was removed and now it's not
Speaker 1: anywhere streamable. But I really wanted to watch the Madonna episode,
Speaker 1: which I do think is the best episode of Glee
Speaker 1: of the two seasons that I've watched. What happens in
Speaker 1: that episode, it's just they do a bunch of Madonna
Speaker 1: numbers and it's amazing. Nothing further was Madonna that when
Speaker 1: they did that was the like a virgin? Was that
Speaker 1: when they did like a virgin? Whenever they yes, they
Speaker 1: they do like a Virgin? Yeah, it would have been
Speaker 1: so perfect for this podcast. I know, right we had
Speaker 1: watched it. What was like your first impression of the show, Like,
Speaker 1: when did you watch it as it came out? Do
Speaker 1: you remember what we were saying? So I I was
Speaker 1: in high school. I was I was a debate kid obviously,
Speaker 1: Oh my god, that's such a good fact about you.
Speaker 1: And when to have a particularly strong theater program at
Speaker 1: my high school, there was just like it wasn't funded
Speaker 1: at all. There was a high turnover on the people
Speaker 1: who were teaching it, and there was just not very
Speaker 1: much interest. So we didn't really have much of a
Speaker 1: theater program. We did like one musical in the whole
Speaker 1: four years that I was there, and I kept wanting
Speaker 1: to apply to the theater magnet school, and like would
Speaker 1: kind of get started application every year and then like
Speaker 1: not go through with it because I just wanted to
Speaker 1: stay at my same high school with all my friends.
Speaker 1: But I did become really close friends with a bunch
Speaker 1: of people who were at theater program, and so I
Speaker 1: was kind of like living vicariously like through these like
Speaker 1: gleaked up theater friends and also through like drawing parallels
Speaker 1: between my whole like debate team experience in Glee. But
Speaker 1: I was like in I was in high school, as
Speaker 1: Glee was happening, I would come to my like English
Speaker 1: class and sit next to my English teacher and gag
Speaker 1: about Glee every week. Um, so you were a Glee
Speaker 1: I was. I was fully a Glee. I was fully
Speaker 1: in it. I loved it. I was obsessed with it.
Speaker 1: And then when I went to college, was around the
Speaker 1: same time that it was like season four, season three
Speaker 1: probably happened, and it did start to get like the
Speaker 1: humor started to get not as good, and the like
Speaker 1: social message became stronger and stronger. Can we have a
Speaker 1: brief aside to talk about the relationships between gay people
Speaker 1: and their English teachers because I came out. My English
Speaker 1: teacher was maybe the fourth or fifth person I ever
Speaker 1: came out too. Like period, I had a like, let's
Speaker 1: have a Kiki kind of relationship. What was your English teacher?
Speaker 1: Like missed of all was my ap lit teacher and
Speaker 1: a loose cannon. And she was a total blast. And
Speaker 1: she like seated me next to her, not because she
Speaker 1: had to watch me, but because we would gab like
Speaker 1: most of the glass because I was like I was
Speaker 1: like bored most of the time, because I was just
Speaker 1: like finished my work. She once famously said that I
Speaker 1: could shoot out an a or like a nine a
Speaker 1: p essay. You know, I'm sure you could. I'm sure
Speaker 1: it was probably not kind of pedagogy to like very
Speaker 1: very clearly like like call out like a better student
Speaker 1: than everyone else. I had a I had an English teacher.
Speaker 1: This was an English teacher that I was had like
Speaker 1: a really good relationship with. But my my last APT
Speaker 1: teacher teacher, his last year of teaching English at our school,
Speaker 1: he just like was over it. And his whole thing
Speaker 1: it was so amazing. His name is Mr. Brown. His
Speaker 1: whole thing was that he was an atheist and if
Speaker 1: you went into his class, and this is we were
Speaker 1: in the Midwest, where like atheism is like kind of
Speaker 1: a little like not everyone believes in God, but like
Speaker 1: it's taboo to be an atheist, Like that's kind of
Speaker 1: culturally where I was, UM, And if you had to
Speaker 1: take a class from Mr Brown, you were told ahead
Speaker 1: of time that he was an atheist and like be
Speaker 1: prepared for that or whatever. And in his last year
Speaker 1: he was fully arguing with Christian high schoolers about the
Speaker 1: existence of God. I was just like, and only now
Speaker 1: am I Like that is kind of crazy, Like that
Speaker 1: is a crazy thing to do as a full grown man.
Speaker 1: Teacher would be like, I don't remember any of my
Speaker 1: English teachers names, but like, I think it's interesting that
Speaker 1: you talk about, you know, how you were a debate
Speaker 1: kid and that gave you sort of like an understanding
Speaker 1: of what was being enacted on the screen. I was
Speaker 1: a theater kid, so obviously, like Glee was deeply triggering
Speaker 1: and traumatizing for me because some it was playing out
Speaker 1: so much of like what was going on social, socioculturally
Speaker 1: in my life in high school. Um. I never did
Speaker 1: choir or anything, though, so it was like a little
Speaker 1: different but like they did put on shows sometimes, and
Speaker 1: like they did so many show tunes and some of
Speaker 1: them were amazing, Like the Glee cast version of some
Speaker 1: songs are great, Um, don't ran on My Parade? Like
Speaker 1: that is one of Lea Michelle's shining moments in life.
Speaker 1: Or her performance of My Man incredible, really really good
Speaker 1: my Man? What is transcendent about it? I don't even
Speaker 1: She's just so good. It's just really good. Are we
Speaker 1: all still today able to say, like Leah Michelle is
Speaker 1: so good it's a rude it's incredibly talented. She is
Speaker 1: so fierce enough, just barely fierce enough to get away
Speaker 1: with how rude she is barely Yeah, but it's is
Speaker 1: it like the fact that she's difficult to work with,
Speaker 1: that she doesn't have work anymore. Well, she did her
Speaker 1: post Glee work was still in the Ryan Murphy verse.
Speaker 1: She did Scream Queens, and she was great on Scream Queens.
Speaker 1: I didn't know she did Scream Queen. Yeah. That's another thing,
Speaker 1: is that Ryan Murphy's reputation when Glee came out was
Speaker 1: that he was edgy because his prior work was and popular.
Speaker 1: He wasn't yet known as like that faggot. If you actually, like,
Speaker 1: if you're looking at the chronology of Ryan Murphy and
Speaker 1: you want to see the thing most clearly led to Glee,
Speaker 1: It is Popular, which is a show, a show that
Speaker 1: was on the WB for two seasons, um, and is
Speaker 1: about a popular girl and an unpopular girl whose parents
Speaker 1: get married so they become step sisters. And it is
Speaker 1: so good. Um. What's what's her name? One? Yeah, the
Speaker 1: one she's in a lot of the rhyme. Yeah. She
Speaker 1: she plays this character Mary Cherry, which is really funny
Speaker 1: because of the other Mary Cherry. Um, and she's so good. Ums.
Speaker 1: Like I've always wondered, like, what is Ryan Murphy's like you?
Speaker 1: I guess you see these adult creators who are so
Speaker 1: clearly working out their own trauma in their work, and
Speaker 1: it's like, when is Ryan Murphy going to get over
Speaker 1: whatever happened to him in high school? He was from Indiana,
Speaker 1: that must be said, that is a lot of trauma
Speaker 1: built in. That's a gay filmmaker, think to Stevens did too,
Speaker 1: but he just coming back to Alan Ball did that
Speaker 1: with six ft Under worked out a lot of his
Speaker 1: like gay stuff. I think that's just like and he
Speaker 1: did it like gay artists have been and I don't know,
Speaker 1: I don't think that's a terrible thing. That's the thing too,
Speaker 1: is that we look back at Glee as like cringe
Speaker 1: e thing that kids watched, when like, at least those
Speaker 1: first two seasons, it was such a parody. It was
Speaker 1: such a parody of high school show. It was like
Speaker 1: it was it was making fun of itself and of
Speaker 1: the entire genre of like high school dramas. It was
Speaker 1: like very much laughing at itself and at the genre
Speaker 1: is getting into until it's like, for some reason wasn't
Speaker 1: or wasn't doing it as success And a lot of
Speaker 1: the jokes are dated now. I just I remember watching
Speaker 1: the show as it aired and feeling like whoa, Like
Speaker 1: that's a really in the no joke, Like that is
Speaker 1: a joke that I like, very clearly understand because it's
Speaker 1: something that I went through, Like makes fun of something
Speaker 1: that I went through. A lot of the writing was
Speaker 1: very smart, but a lot of it was also very okay.
Speaker 1: If you had to be in when Santana calls Rachel,
Speaker 1: if you had to be in one of the groups
Speaker 1: New Directions Vocal Adrenaline, the cheer Squad, which one would
Speaker 1: you want? Are these all the clicks? These are all
Speaker 1: the different glee class I would be in the Warblers.
Speaker 1: I would be one. Are the Warblers. They're the one
Speaker 1: that at the prep school that that Kurt was in.
Speaker 1: Is the raven clause? Is he still dating Darren Chris
Speaker 1: when he goes to the Warblers? Or are they over?
Speaker 1: But that's when they meet. Oh that's when they meet.
Speaker 1: Oh it's so And Blaine is singing Teenage Dream with
Speaker 1: that was a moment too, And like Kurt just happens
Speaker 1: to stumble upon the Warblers singing Teenage Dream and Blaine
Speaker 1: is like swinging, like winking and smiling like at Kurt.
Speaker 1: It's like, I mean good. And then when they break
Speaker 1: up three years later or two years later, Blaine like
Speaker 1: does this like kind of drunk, like really pathetic, like
Speaker 1: reprise of Teenage Dream at this Beano bar in New York.
Speaker 1: At this stage it is like I'm cleaking out. I'm
Speaker 1: cleanking out, guys cleaking When you think about devices to explain,
Speaker 1: like the constant performances of musical numbers in a TV
Speaker 1: show like a glee club club is a good conceit
Speaker 1: Like it does make sense that they would be singing
Speaker 1: a lot. But the thing is like they were doing
Speaker 1: these full musical numbers or like, I think a thing
Speaker 1: that always annoyed me was that they would be rehearsing
Speaker 1: and then like Rachel would just look over at the
Speaker 1: band that was always playing with them, when the band
Speaker 1: would always already like have an arrangement of the song
Speaker 1: ready to go, and everyone like a companist. Okay, and
Speaker 1: that's that's what it is you have to do they
Speaker 1: have like did they have a songbook they were working on?
Speaker 1: I'm sure where was the budget for all the costumes
Speaker 1: that they did or the song license You still had
Speaker 1: to pay for licensing if you performed these on like
Speaker 1: the stage, but at least but Glee was like and
Speaker 1: and in terms of licensing, like they must have spent
Speaker 1: so much money licensing those songs for the show. But
Speaker 1: like also the Glee music was an economy unto itself
Speaker 1: because this album sold, They did tours. Did you ever
Speaker 1: go see a tour time at all? I never went to.
Speaker 1: I don't do concerts on Oh there we go. I
Speaker 1: feel like there's a short king. I feel like the
Speaker 1: the thing to me, I think the reason I didn't
Speaker 1: like the show like around the time it was out,
Speaker 1: was in large part of the music. Actually, like I
Speaker 1: think the music was a barrier to entry for me
Speaker 1: because that was the whole point of the show, I know,
Speaker 1: but I had moved on from that because I was
Speaker 1: like a theater kid, and by the time the show
Speaker 1: was really coming out, I feel like I was, um,
Speaker 1: I don't know, hating hating theater and hating musicals. Were
Speaker 1: you weren't you close? Uh No, I wasn't close. Or
Speaker 1: maybe actually I don't remember. I need to, Actually I should.
Speaker 1: I need to learn what my actual life timeline is
Speaker 1: is what I should remember. I feel like by the
Speaker 1: time Glee was out, I was really invested in the thing,
Speaker 1: in like cultural things that I knew that I could
Speaker 1: get better than my peers because I was gay and
Speaker 1: so like A big reason that I was so into
Speaker 1: Lady Gaga when I was in high school is because
Speaker 1: I could be like I I felt that I could
Speaker 1: get the references and understand this, that I had some
Speaker 1: kind of like affinity towards this thing, Like I get
Speaker 1: this in a way that the other people around me didn't,
Speaker 1: and that actually made me feel really good about myself.
Speaker 1: It made me feel like I was really good at
Speaker 1: something or had some kind of like, um, exceptionalism to
Speaker 1: like my personality, And I think Glee was really similar.
Speaker 1: Even though it was a hit show. I felt like,
Speaker 1: you know, I could keep key with my English teacher
Speaker 1: about it in a way that like I was more
Speaker 1: grown and more like sophisticated. But at the time, because
Speaker 1: I was like, it wasn't there Also, Um, the Glee
Speaker 1: Project wasn't that where people like auditioned to be on
Speaker 1: Glee and it has a reality show, have a friend
Speaker 1: that was on it. That's how Oliviard rigo No, no, no,
Speaker 1: She's difference all the musical the series. Um, but the
Speaker 1: Glee Project was a reality show where kids were competing
Speaker 1: to be on Glee. And um, that's where Alex Newell
Speaker 1: is from. Like Tony nominee Alex Newell, the Glee Project
Speaker 1: invented Alex Newell because Alex eventually went on the show
Speaker 1: to write Yeah. I think so. I wasn't watching at
Speaker 1: that point, but I think they were one of the
Speaker 1: ones who made it onto Glee. Um and Glee, I
Speaker 1: mean as far as I know from what I've seen online,
Speaker 1: because I think every couple of weeks there's a thing
Speaker 1: on Twitter where someone clips out a scene from Gleen
Speaker 1: is like can you believe this happened? Um, And a
Speaker 1: lot of times it's like it is really crazy, Like
Speaker 1: the one I saw recently was Sue Sylvester doing super Base,
Speaker 1: which like is crazy in and of itself. But my
Speaker 1: favorite version of that is the video where someone has
Speaker 1: edited Vulk from Suspiria onto it. But I do think
Speaker 1: the show got a lot gayer as the years went
Speaker 1: on in terms of like I think one of the
Speaker 1: reasons that teenagers really liked it is because it was
Speaker 1: one of the few shows on TV that had queer
Speaker 1: relationships on it, Like Santana and Brittany haven't had a
Speaker 1: huge stand um and still due to this day, you know,
Speaker 1: Kurt and Blaine, like they were in the fan fiction world,
Speaker 1: they were huge. I never read any Glee fan fiction,
Speaker 1: but they were like a monolith and it was highly
Speaker 1: it was satisfying, you know, And I don't really feel
Speaker 1: that I guess I don't know in this weird way,
Speaker 1: I like this Ryan Murphy apologist because like the this
Speaker 1: like Ryan Murphy self describes his style as Barroke, and
Speaker 1: I think that like as as queer people. We do.
Speaker 1: We've gotten fatigued with the right maximal style and really
Speaker 1: tired of it. But I think that there is something
Speaker 1: there about feeling squeamish about really really highly visible gay
Speaker 1: style in in a mainstream place where everyone can see it,
Speaker 1: and that there's something embarrassing about that for us as
Speaker 1: queer people. And I don't know, I think it's as
Speaker 1: simple as like internalized homophobia, but that it's it's for
Speaker 1: some it's for the same reason that we kind of
Speaker 1: have a hard time standing gay recording artists. Is like
Speaker 1: we have a hard time standing a show runner who
Speaker 1: is so unapologetically and and um clearly gay in all
Speaker 1: the ways that he works that we're like embarrassing really
Speaker 1: was like a pinnacle of like diversity, at least at
Speaker 1: the time. I think that we have things that are like,
Speaker 1: you know, a lot more intersectional now. But like all
Speaker 1: of his projects, I mean, if I were to give
Speaker 1: Ryan Murphy credit on anything, he did set like new
Speaker 1: standards on casting, Like he was always casting like disabled actors,
Speaker 1: he was always casting queer people, but he was also
Speaker 1: always casting straight people to play queer people. Yes, I mean,
Speaker 1: but that you know, I mean that was just like
Speaker 1: also like a casting standard unfortunately, like in the early aughts. Still,
Speaker 1: I mean and Darren Chris even I feel like that
Speaker 1: was the beginning of Darren Chris, like playing gay and
Speaker 1: projects and then when he said he vowed to never
Speaker 1: play a gay character again after doing it, like after
Speaker 1: winning an Emmy for it, that's what he said. Enough,
Speaker 1: But to your point, Hi, I feel like, um that
Speaker 1: whole Like, yeah, I agree, It's not as simple as
Speaker 1: hating yourself. It's kind of like there's a kind of like,
Speaker 1: um fear that happens when representation quote unquote of sorts
Speaker 1: like hits a mass popularity, because all of a sudden,
Speaker 1: you're like, oh, everyone doesn't think that like this is
Speaker 1: me or that like immediately you kind of fear being
Speaker 1: flattened because that's what you don't want. You're queer, Like yes, yes,
Speaker 1: yes you want to. I'm sure you honestly, Hummel. I
Speaker 1: hate to invoke this, but I'm thinking a lot about
Speaker 1: the Fire Island TV show that debuted on Logo like
Speaker 1: a few years ago. Do you remember like the kind
Speaker 1: of media like craze around that, like the the the
Speaker 1: overwhelming sentiment and like the thing pieces and the things
Speaker 1: that people were saying on social media was like this
Speaker 1: is like a symbol of gay America's moral decline or whatever,
Speaker 1: like they it would felt like shut up, like they
Speaker 1: really treated it like it was not see propaganda. I
Speaker 1: was like, I was like, girls, I'm sure nothing. I'm
Speaker 1: not here to defend the Fire Island TV show. But
Speaker 1: the reasons people were the reasons people were mad about
Speaker 1: the Fire Island TV show was like hor phobia. It
Speaker 1: was like people feeling like this was a flattening of
Speaker 1: like a gay man could be. You know, I feel
Speaker 1: like it was a lot of well, it's like it's
Speaker 1: this feeling of they're going to make us look bad. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't know to think about that tie. Did you
Speaker 1: see the Fire Island TV show problem? I want to
Speaker 1: get well, no, I think you're I think you're getting it.
Speaker 1: This weird um like riddle with representation that we've had
Speaker 1: to kind of deal with, especially over the past like
Speaker 1: ten years, as so much of our community has like
Speaker 1: shifted its attention from political goals towards um like I
Speaker 1: guess a pathetic like concerns um that like how what
Speaker 1: does what does representation that makes us happy? Like all
Speaker 1: happy actually look like is that possible? And like is it?
Speaker 1: Is it even that I think crucial in an error
Speaker 1: when you can pull up TikTok and see gaye as
Speaker 1: many gay people as you want, doing as many different
Speaker 1: things and looking as the most specific kind of queer
Speaker 1: people as well, like just every single like person has
Speaker 1: a lane on too. And I don't mean to say
Speaker 1: that representation doesn't matter obviously, I think it's kind of that,
Speaker 1: but I think we still as a culture really put
Speaker 1: a lot of steak in them in mainstream representation, and
Speaker 1: like it's it's about what who is visible to the
Speaker 1: most people and also what kind of resources are they
Speaker 1: getting for that visibility. So like I do think that
Speaker 1: people see more value in like the Billy Eichner rom
Speaker 1: com than like two boys kissing on TikTok, even if
Speaker 1: it gets a million views. I think a lot of
Speaker 1: people are usually kind of just mad at the wrong
Speaker 1: things as well. Like I think that with something like
Speaker 1: Fire Island, it's like people for the TV show, I
Speaker 1: mean it's like people are mad that Like what they're
Speaker 1: really mad about is like we have a very limited
Speaker 1: amount of resources for mainstream media still, and like logo
Speaker 1: is like the place that makes gay stuff still and
Speaker 1: so to put all your two for Kelly Rippau, who
Speaker 1: produced the show, to be like, yes, this is the
Speaker 1: show that needs attention right now. I think where we
Speaker 1: get anxious around the amount of space it takes up
Speaker 1: or the resources that it gets sometimes. And also I
Speaker 1: think like with that show specific like Fire Island is
Speaker 1: like a sacred queer space in a lot of ways,
Speaker 1: and I think it did feel like sort of commoditizing,
Speaker 1: like the the worst part of something that is very
Speaker 1: special to a lot of people for you know, like
Speaker 1: mainstream entertainment. Um. And I know my gripes with Glee
Speaker 1: were definitely internalized homophobia, Like I'm I used to I
Speaker 1: used to write like a column for like my local
Speaker 1: newspaper or whatever, and I remember writing about how much
Speaker 1: I hate Glee, And I'm sure that, like, if I
Speaker 1: were to revisit that column, it was probably riddled with
Speaker 1: internalized homophobia. But I think the crux of what I
Speaker 1: was mad about was a lack of like multiplicity of
Speaker 1: perspective in like queer media at the time, even though
Speaker 1: we weren't really calling things queer yet. Um. But I
Speaker 1: don't know, I feel like that you're you talking about,
Speaker 1: Like what what even makes like positive representation which is
Speaker 1: like an artifice, Like that's like not a real thing.
Speaker 1: It is usually like measured by this authenticity factor, like
Speaker 1: people always say that something has to be authentic or whatever,
Speaker 1: but like authentic to who you know what I mean?
Speaker 1: And I think that that's where people get caught up.
Speaker 1: Is like when they look at something like Lee, it's like,
Speaker 1: well that doesn't represent me, and it's like, well, it
Speaker 1: was never meant to really represent you. It's like meant
Speaker 1: to represent right, it was a sad it's it's really stirical,
Speaker 1: like it's really making fun of itself. I don't know.
Speaker 1: Sometimes I do feel like the logical endpoint of like
Speaker 1: our representation discourse is like I don't feel represented until
Speaker 1: I am cast. Actually, we need more representation for me.
Speaker 1: You need to We need more trans people in the
Speaker 1: writer's room, and by that I mean me. I want
Speaker 1: to be in the writer's room on TV shows. I'm
Speaker 1: very bookable. I need more people to read my pilot.
Speaker 1: I have a sample I have a sample stack that
Speaker 1: everyone should be reading. And that is when representation will
Speaker 1: be fixed. We need more queer stories, pleased buy my
Speaker 1: book that I'm writing. But sometimes I am really surprised
Speaker 1: at what people do get excited about representationally, like that
Speaker 1: show am Stoppers, which, like I feel like if that
Speaker 1: had come out ten years ago, we would all be
Speaker 1: passing around a tweet or a Facebook post about like
Speaker 1: here's another white But I think the funny thing had Stoppers. Ever,
Speaker 1: the meme of this was my hard stopper and all
Speaker 1: of the things that like like satirical or otherwise people
Speaker 1: like found representative of them when they like needed it
Speaker 1: during a very formative time. I honestly think all the
Speaker 1: time about that tweet from I hate summarizing tweets on
Speaker 1: the podcast I'm doing something that is a pet peep
Speaker 1: of mind, but there was a tweet that was like,
Speaker 1: kids are so lucky to have little naz these days.
Speaker 1: Back then, all I had was this and it's Kurt
Speaker 1: doing single Ladies on, which is so tea and it.
Speaker 1: But I think that tweet actually really perfectly encapsulates a
Speaker 1: lot of things we're talking about, which is that, like,
Speaker 1: the problem is that the possibility of a little nas
Speaker 1: X really like I mean, I don't know if media
Speaker 1: was like ready for that in the early ats or whatever.
Speaker 1: I mean, maybe that's stupid to say, but like, um,
Speaker 1: now to where we've grown up to and to all
Speaker 1: the different kinds of things that we've seen along the way,
Speaker 1: and also even in the way that Glee became increasingly
Speaker 1: more I don't want to say intersectional, because I feel
Speaker 1: like that is like over intellectualizing it, but like it
Speaker 1: just brought in even more kinds of queer and trans
Speaker 1: and black and brown people that you would not have
Speaker 1: imagined on mainstream TV. And that was huge for a
Speaker 1: show that was pretty much the biggest show on TV
Speaker 1: for a long time. But you know, it bucks me
Speaker 1: that when we talk about representation, especially que representation, we
Speaker 1: always do this thing where we kind of project our
Speaker 1: own childhood's onto people who are young now, Like we're
Speaker 1: always talking about how we need this kind of representation
Speaker 1: for that twelve year old kid in Ohio who doesn't
Speaker 1: have anyone, and I'm like, I actually don't know what
Speaker 1: that person's life is like. I don't know what a
Speaker 1: what a preteens, like queer preteens like access to different
Speaker 1: kinds of representation, especially on social media platforms, is like,
Speaker 1: and what they actually need. And it kind of bugs
Speaker 1: me that we have we we project knowing what young people.
Speaker 1: But but but the thing is, and we have talked
Speaker 1: about this on the podcast before, like they do want
Speaker 1: it on TV, and they do get they do get
Speaker 1: really mad. Like as someone who has run a social
Speaker 1: media account, as someone who also like, we know what
Speaker 1: the people who we know what people who watch shows
Speaker 1: with queer characters, how much they make their whole personalities
Speaker 1: about those shows and those characters, and when those characters
Speaker 1: are killed off or the shows are canceled, they treat
Speaker 1: that like the end of the world. Because I think
Speaker 1: a lot of young kids, especially um, the Internet has
Speaker 1: given them access to queerness in a way that we
Speaker 1: didn't have when we were growing up, and so rather
Speaker 1: than seeking it out in real life, they're centering their
Speaker 1: whole understanding of queerness around the media they consume, so
Speaker 1: that when it fails them it is even more devastating
Speaker 1: than it was for us, because we just assumed that
Speaker 1: we would never be represented in media, so we didn't
Speaker 1: like put too much weight in it. There's definitely a
Speaker 1: population of like what you're describing, which is like tender
Speaker 1: queers and people that subscribe to them. To us, like
Speaker 1: newsletter but I feel like what Tie is saying, and
Speaker 1: what I kind of agree with, is that a twelve
Speaker 1: year old in Ohio, you know, now has access to
Speaker 1: TikTok or whatever they have. They have access to so
Speaker 1: many different kinds of selves that I think you would
Speaker 1: become disillusioned to pretty quickly. So like the stage we're
Speaker 1: at now, Like I feel very um salty about queer
Speaker 1: representation most of the time, I'm pretty like, you know, disillusioned, disheartened.
Speaker 1: But it's taken a lot of representation up into this
Speaker 1: point to get me to feel the kind of synicism
Speaker 1: I feel now. But when you start, when you're like ten,
Speaker 1: like or twelve or whatever, I feel like they're probably
Speaker 1: cynical before they even leave high school. And I feel
Speaker 1: like a lot of people I have a lot of
Speaker 1: queer people who are in high school right now. I think, um,
Speaker 1: I think a lot of them are tender queers. But
Speaker 1: I also think there's a lot of people that you know, don't,
Speaker 1: will never, don't feel anymore like being queer is any
Speaker 1: kind of novelty, and maybe don't even care about like
Speaker 1: labels in general. I think it's a stute. I mean,
Speaker 1: I will, I will push back against the idea that
Speaker 1: every twelve year old and where you know, wherever, not everything.
Speaker 1: But the thing is that if the kids who are
Speaker 1: like not allowed to have smartphones or something are also
Speaker 1: because there have homophoblic parents are also probably not allowed
Speaker 1: to watch Heart Star Heart Stoppers on Netflix. So you know,
Speaker 1: so that's like a there is something that actually must
Speaker 1: be done for those kids that representation actually isn't sufficient
Speaker 1: for um. But you know, I hear what you're saying that,
Speaker 1: like we do actually know something about about queer kids
Speaker 1: and what they need. What sucks about that is that
Speaker 1: kids have horrible t east between shows that are like
Speaker 1: bad but kids love them, and show and like media
Speaker 1: that is like sophisticated and like interesting and rare, I guess,
Speaker 1: but like kids don't have access to them. I would
Speaker 1: love to talk about the Ryan Murphy of it all.
Speaker 1: I like, I like The Politician. Actually I did too,
Speaker 1: the Politician. I enjoyed it, especially season two with Judith. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, and I feel like I go into it
Speaker 1: knowing that this is a highly stylized showrunner who had who,
Speaker 1: and that I'm going into it expecting that things are
Speaker 1: going to be bizarre and baroque and over the top
Speaker 1: and ridiculous. And so when people are like, can you
Speaker 1: believe this happened Hungly, It's like, yeah, that is Ryan
Speaker 1: Murphy stuck. Can you believe this happened in American horror story?
Speaker 1: Like can you believe this? You know? Can you believe
Speaker 1: this happened on men dot com? It's like asking that
Speaker 1: I really liked feud Um Betty and Joan Um and
Speaker 1: I I liked Ratchet, I thought, I mean, I enjoyed
Speaker 1: watching most of it. I couldn't get through the gore.
Speaker 1: I thought it was way too much gore. But that's
Speaker 1: just a personal taste thing. Um. I also thought that
Speaker 1: Andy Warhol docuseries was was pretty good, even though the
Speaker 1: choice to do the AI voice was very strange. UM,
Speaker 1: but the politician, like I liked it once they weren't
Speaker 1: in high school anymore, and I just didn't understand why
Speaker 1: so much of it had to be set in high school.
Speaker 1: And it's like, just move on from that part of
Speaker 1: your trauma. So you mentioned Popular earlier. I feel like
Speaker 1: he loves like underdogs. He loves like an underdog story.
Speaker 1: And I think that there's a through line from like
Speaker 1: popular to like Niptop or maybe not even Niptuck, maybe
Speaker 1: like Glee, but also like Pose and The Politician, where
Speaker 1: there's this kind of like underdoggy thing that he's always
Speaker 1: kind of pulling through and pulling out of narrative. Well,
Speaker 1: I did see myself representing Niptuck because fam Ka, Jessa
Speaker 1: played a secret a secret trans woman. Doesn't she get murdered?
Speaker 1: You know, she does not get murdered, but she does
Speaker 1: like she has sex with one of the main character sons,
Speaker 1: and it's like this whole thing where they find out
Speaker 1: that she's trans. It's like, oh my god. Doesn't Willem
Speaker 1: also play a trans woman? William was on Niptuck, Yes,
Speaker 1: playing trans Um. I don't know. It's so funny to
Speaker 1: think about the question of like when was the first
Speaker 1: time you saw yourself represented on screen, because like it
Speaker 1: for me, it was. I don't think if I answered
Speaker 1: that question in your real way, it would not be
Speaker 1: like a queer person, a trans person. It would be
Speaker 1: like just someone who more like energetically. No, it would
Speaker 1: be like Queen momby in Return oz Return to oz Um.
Speaker 1: You know, like, it's not gonna be like the first
Speaker 1: time I saw myself represented on screen was like Alexis
Speaker 1: and ugly Betty. You know, I mean, you know, I
Speaker 1: don't know. I don't know that I've ever seen myself
Speaker 1: represented on screen, and I don't know. Maybe that is
Speaker 1: like a very like narcissistic um like presumption about how
Speaker 1: exceptional I am. But I guess I don't look for
Speaker 1: it either. I don't. I don't. I have seen so
Speaker 1: many people and characters on screen that I want to
Speaker 1: be that, I want to have sex with that, and
Speaker 1: those two seem to go hand in hand when you're
Speaker 1: a faggot, I guess, you know, And I think like
Speaker 1: watching Glee, I remember, um, like seeing a character like Blaine,
Speaker 1: and I think internalizing this idea that, oh, I want
Speaker 1: to be like that kind of gay, I want to
Speaker 1: be handsome, talented, heart throbby like I like I. And
Speaker 1: I didn't even necessarily think, oh this is possible because
Speaker 1: blames here, but that like I would kind of I
Speaker 1: think consume characters and queer representation in terms of like, um,
Speaker 1: who can I emulate one day? Who would I want
Speaker 1: to kind of grow up to be? You know, what
Speaker 1: I saw myself represented on screen was Pam and true Blood.
Speaker 1: You succeeded. Yeah, thank you, Pam. Pam is a vampire
Speaker 1: who is just like has the most bone dry, sarcastic,
Speaker 1: dead pan wit is a huge fucking bitch m and
Speaker 1: like people and eats people and it's like evil and
Speaker 1: has like very fierce looks. Um, she's amazing. But the
Speaker 1: flip side of the whole like queer people I want
Speaker 1: to be thing is that I also would resent those
Speaker 1: same characters because I wasn't there, and so that I
Speaker 1: feel like happens more often than seeing myself on screen,
Speaker 1: is I see people that make me feel bad about
Speaker 1: myself because I don't look like them or I don't
Speaker 1: have you know, Like it's weird how we go back
Speaker 1: and forth between like I hate you and I want
Speaker 1: to be you, and I feel like people do feel
Speaker 1: that way about porn a lot. I feel that about
Speaker 1: people I want to back with. Definitely, it's the perils
Speaker 1: I think of like queer representation and success is because
Speaker 1: like I definitely know this, This is my experience with
Speaker 1: seeing other trans women, especially like a lot of us
Speaker 1: are like just measuring ourselves up to each other and
Speaker 1: like why why does she like look better than me?
Speaker 1: Or like she's had more surgery than I have, or
Speaker 1: like she's getting attention that I'm not getting, like and
Speaker 1: I think that is very much a queer experience because
Speaker 1: like they're so there's so much less for us to
Speaker 1: get that we are jealous of anyone who gets a
Speaker 1: little bit more than us. I think that's maybe a
Speaker 1: big part of where people feel embarrassed by Glee is
Speaker 1: that Glee, for all its satire, is also a wish
Speaker 1: fulfillment fantasy. It's like it is a high school experience
Speaker 1: that is like very fairy tale in the sense that
Speaker 1: you have this community of kids who come from all
Speaker 1: different parts of the school who are inspired to work
Speaker 1: together and sing really well and get to sing whenever
Speaker 1: they want and get to express themselves whenever they want
Speaker 1: and however they want um and even all fall in
Speaker 1: love with each other in various combinations in the process,
Speaker 1: even though they're you know, getting slushies thrown at them.
Speaker 1: There is this this fantasy come true that's taking place
Speaker 1: in the show that I think can produce this knee
Speaker 1: jerk um resentment that maybe you were feeling for him. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I think all of that is exacerbated by like
Speaker 1: scarcity mentality especially I mean at the time, it's like
Speaker 1: there was a dearth of cond of like you know,
Speaker 1: queer content in general, and so it's just like, really
Speaker 1: this thing, which wasn't my reaction the whole way through.
Speaker 1: I remember loving like the first half of that season,
Speaker 1: but now that we you know, scarcity obviously still like multiplicity,
Speaker 1: intersectionality still needed, but like less of a problem now
Speaker 1: I think it'll be I'll be curious to know how
Speaker 1: like the representation conversation evolves. But I mean, honestly should
Speaker 1: have a reboot. And I'm just but it was innovative
Speaker 1: at the time for Kurt to be a character who
Speaker 1: succeeds and gets his needs met because Ryan Murphy was
Speaker 1: intervening on a whole period of queer representation where quick
Speaker 1: characters were very tragic, with really the only exception being
Speaker 1: Will and Grace, and even then, um, there were there
Speaker 1: were other problems, and everyone hated Will and Grace for
Speaker 1: not being tragic because it emerged right now. It was
Speaker 1: such a huge hit. Well that too, Yeah it was.
Speaker 1: It was a massive hit. But like sent like the
Speaker 1: critics at the time, we're like, this show has is
Speaker 1: like a um to yuppie and then aesthetizing of like
Speaker 1: what queerness is, and and it came right after the
Speaker 1: AIDS like kind of the in the wake of what
Speaker 1: was the worst of the AIDS crisis, and so a
Speaker 1: lot of activists were really still trying to keep people alive.
Speaker 1: And so for Will and Grace to have the audacity
Speaker 1: to be joyful, I think a lot of like, you know,
Speaker 1: people you know that feel type of way about that
Speaker 1: are going to be extremely mad. But I feel like,
Speaker 1: um that that show very specifically was like we're not
Speaker 1: going to talk about AIDS, you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: Like they came into it with that as a partial
Speaker 1: mission for the show. So of course people are going
Speaker 1: to be, you know, mad that it's not representing or
Speaker 1: not like kind of representing the thing that was important
Speaker 1: in the time. Um. Tie, if you had to perform
Speaker 1: a song on Glee, your Glee Cast version, what would
Speaker 1: it be? Oh my god, I've thought about this so
Speaker 1: many times. I think mine would be, um I write,
Speaker 1: since not tragedies by panic of the disco, that's good?
Speaker 1: Has that happened on Glee? They did? I'm gonna google
Speaker 1: right now. Mine would be probably like running up that hill.
Speaker 1: Glee Cast version. What would that even sound like? I mean,
Speaker 1: they basically did that at post because like Running Up
Speaker 1: the Hill was like a motif for the first season.
Speaker 1: But it's not like someone was doing a karaoke cover
Speaker 1: of it. No, but that did not stop Ryan Murphy
Speaker 1: from making characters, you know, break out into the song
Speaker 1: at any moment on post post Nightmare. I would have
Speaker 1: to do I hate this part by the Pussycat Dolls.
Speaker 1: That's so good. Did you do it over last show
Speaker 1: as well? Well? Yeah, the well in the whole Glee
Speaker 1: Club would also be the Pussycat Dolls and we would
Speaker 1: be on the stage, but the stage would have water
Speaker 1: on it. Who who would be in the number with you?
Speaker 1: Would it be the whole club or would you have
Speaker 1: a selection of backup girls? It would be the It
Speaker 1: would be the whole club, right because I mean the
Speaker 1: pussy Got Dolls is like seven people, right, Like, I
Speaker 1: guess it would be in the It would definitely be
Speaker 1: like at regionals or something. No, it would have been
Speaker 1: inspired by by some story. I mean, I guess it
Speaker 1: could be both, Like would what's like what's the costume situation? Like,
Speaker 1: what are you wearing very very scantily clad vinyl probably
Speaker 1: or like it's still school appropriate, not well appropriate, I mean,
Speaker 1: was ever school appropriate? Yeah, we need to Euphoria Glee
Speaker 1: crossover episode is what we need. I mean honestly that
Speaker 1: the Rose hates somebody talking about you before you, but honestly,
Speaker 1: the play within a play in Euphoria was kind of gleey. Well,
Speaker 1: Euphoria is kind of a musical too. It's just a
Speaker 1: jukebox musical where everyone lip sings instead of singing songs. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: it has its most Season two was just like a
Speaker 1: lip sync every episode. I'm so glad I didn't watch
Speaker 1: season two. You would, you would, you would love it
Speaker 1: was awful. That doesn't matter. Would you ever do a
Speaker 1: porn in which you had to sing? Oh? We should
Speaker 1: do a porn We should do a porn parody of Glee.
Speaker 1: I want to that has to exist. I'm gonna I'm
Speaker 1: gonna check right now and there there's definitely enough fan
Speaker 1: fiction porn of curtain Blaine, Right, that's right, there seems
Speaker 1: to be. I can't really find anything. It doesn't look
Speaker 1: like I should not be using the I heart WiFi
Speaker 1: to do I'll pitch it. Yeah, you should. You should
Speaker 1: write the script, Rose, who will you play in the
Speaker 1: Glee parody porn? Um, I'll be an executive producer. Okay,
Speaker 1: then I'll be I'll be Shoe Shoe something that I know.
Speaker 1: I'll actually I'll be I'll be Jane Lynch. I do
Speaker 1: feel like I have Leah Michelle energy, like I do
Speaker 1: try really hard, you know, like I related to that
Speaker 1: element of like her character and also real life personality
Speaker 1: was that like she against all odds, would try her,
Speaker 1: made her, made her what she wanted very clear. So
Speaker 1: tire you, Kurt in the porn parody of Glee? No,
Speaker 1: I mean in the interest of getting more scenes? Yes?
Speaker 1: Or are you I kind of think No, I think
Speaker 1: you're Rachel and Rachel yea, yeah, you're Rachel. What do
Speaker 1: y'all want to see us discussed next? Because honestly, we
Speaker 1: have no idea. We are really running load. It could
Speaker 1: be a book, a movie, a cultural phenomenon, a moment
Speaker 1: of celebrity, something that was just very specifically interesting to
Speaker 1: you as a baby queer or you know, siss Hett.
Speaker 1: If you are out there, um, you can call us
Speaker 1: to confess at three to three penance. That's three to
Speaker 1: three seven three six two six to three, but you
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Speaker 1: reach us. You know there are middling degrees of success,
Speaker 1: and also tag our burner Instagram account at Like a
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Speaker 1: to us. Yes, we do check the d M. We
Speaker 1: do not always respond to them. Yeah, yeah, I don't
Speaker 1: know if we're Yeah, I don't know if we're all tiny,
Speaker 1: but we will see. Um. I'm your co host fran Toronto.
Speaker 1: You can find me at Frans squish code wherever you
Speaker 1: want social I'm ros dum you. You can find me
Speaker 1: at Rose Damn you on Instagram, TikTok, Twitter, LinkedIn, LinkedIn
Speaker 1: farmers only, farmers only. Um, what was that? What's the
Speaker 1: Jewish dating app called j j Jada. I'm not on
Speaker 1: jaded Unfortunately. You can subscribe to Like a Virgin anywhere
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Speaker 1: a Virgin is an i Heeart radio production. Our producer
Speaker 1: is pb Inter the Winter with support from Lindsay Hoffman,
Speaker 1: Julian Weller, Jess Crane, Chitch and Nikki E Tour until
Speaker 1: next week. See you later virgins don't Stop Believe and
Speaker 1: I was about to seeing Seasons of Love, but Don't
Speaker 1: Stop Believing as much better. Well, that's like the definitive
Speaker 1: Glee song. Yeah, is it really? Yeah, it's the song
Speaker 1: you did in the first episode, Don't Stop Believe in