1
00:00:03,080 --> 00:00:05,440
Speaker 1: I'm going to create an environment that is so toxic,

2
00:00:06,200 --> 00:00:09,520
Speaker 1: and they really did. They really did create an environment

3
00:00:09,600 --> 00:00:18,560
Speaker 1: that was so toxic and yet fruitful. I'm starting a

4
00:00:18,640 --> 00:00:22,800
Speaker 1: rumor that Kate Bush is a gleek. You know, Um,

5
00:00:22,960 --> 00:00:25,520
Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't know if that's that's if

6
00:00:25,560 --> 00:00:27,159
Speaker 1: that's true, but we love to say shitty things for

7
00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:29,640
Speaker 1: attention here on like a virgin. That's true, and this

8
00:00:29,680 --> 00:00:33,320
Speaker 1: episode will be no different because we're talking about Glee.

9
00:00:33,920 --> 00:00:35,800
Speaker 1: We're just we were warming up right before we're doing

10
00:00:35,800 --> 00:00:39,320
Speaker 1: our our scales. O. Wait, wait, we need to actually

11
00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:41,960
Speaker 1: do a kind of red leather, yellow leather, red leather.

12
00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:45,000
Speaker 1: What was what sells seashells by the seashore? What did

13
00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:51,839
Speaker 1: you do to that? Really ugly? Should we do a

14
00:00:51,920 --> 00:00:56,600
Speaker 1: quick ground that thought? You? Neque New York, New York?

15
00:00:56,640 --> 00:01:01,720
Speaker 1: You know, that's really moment. Yeah, this is really cursed,

16
00:01:02,240 --> 00:01:05,200
Speaker 1: which is very appropriate because today we're talking about Glee,

17
00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:08,880
Speaker 1: the seminole Ryan Murphy TV show, and we have none

18
00:01:08,959 --> 00:01:13,040
Speaker 1: other than the first openly gay porn star and writer

19
00:01:13,319 --> 00:01:16,440
Speaker 1: Tie Mitchell here today to talk with us all about

20
00:01:16,480 --> 00:01:21,280
Speaker 1: Glee It's impact on TV culture, queer representation. Because this

21
00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:23,440
Speaker 1: is like a Virgin the show where we give yesterday's

22
00:01:23,440 --> 00:01:27,360
Speaker 1: pop culture today's takes. I'm ros Dam and I'm fran Toronto.

23
00:01:31,520 --> 00:01:34,119
Speaker 1: This Pride month, we were blessed by what I will

24
00:01:34,160 --> 00:01:36,800
Speaker 1: say is one of the best gay albums of all

25
00:01:36,880 --> 00:01:40,039
Speaker 1: time and definitely an album of the year, from um

26
00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:44,720
Speaker 1: Muna's self titled second album, Muna Um. I'm in love

27
00:01:44,760 --> 00:01:46,760
Speaker 1: with it. I've been listening to it NonStop. Actually on

28
00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:49,480
Speaker 1: the flight to New York from l A. I just

29
00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:51,440
Speaker 1: had it playing on a loop while I was sleeping

30
00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:53,760
Speaker 1: for the entire flight. So now I feel like it

31
00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:57,560
Speaker 1: has settled into my very bones. And I'm gonna say

32
00:01:57,600 --> 00:02:01,080
Speaker 1: my favorite track right now currently is Nurse High Too.

33
00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:05,639
Speaker 1: It's so good, it's like really synthy. Um. I really

34
00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:09,160
Speaker 1: like how their production has evolved, especially like I think

35
00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:14,400
Speaker 1: the songwriting and like the musicians ship has always been there.

36
00:02:14,440 --> 00:02:16,919
Speaker 1: But I think maybe because you know, mun As signed

37
00:02:16,960 --> 00:02:21,799
Speaker 1: to Phoebe Bridges label Satisfactory Records, and I think maybe

38
00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:25,639
Speaker 1: like getting them like like helping them out with production

39
00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:27,400
Speaker 1: was maybe part of that, or just maybe they have

40
00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:30,160
Speaker 1: access to like a better studio now. I don't know,

41
00:02:30,280 --> 00:02:35,000
Speaker 1: but just realized that saddest factory is a double entendo

42
00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:41,200
Speaker 1: for satisfactory. I didn't know that good if I did not, anyway,

43
00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:44,000
Speaker 1: that's very Phoebe. But yeah, it's very Phoebe. Um again

44
00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:46,799
Speaker 1: Runners high Runners hide for me. I mean it feels

45
00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:48,920
Speaker 1: very like fruit fru or like image and heat a

46
00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:52,280
Speaker 1: little bit, which is the biggest compliment, biggest we can give.

47
00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:56,320
Speaker 1: And then like my other fave, Solid with like those

48
00:02:56,440 --> 00:02:59,800
Speaker 1: harmonized vocals that they are so known for, reminds me

49
00:02:59,840 --> 00:03:05,079
Speaker 1: of very like Um, very like Wilson Phillips, like Um

50
00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:08,520
Speaker 1: eighties nineties era, like girl rock, you know girl in

51
00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:12,320
Speaker 1: quotes rock. Um right, it would definitely play at like

52
00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:14,880
Speaker 1: a wedding scene in a queer movie. Yeah, they them

53
00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:17,880
Speaker 1: rock if you will Um and I yeah, I mean,

54
00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:20,959
Speaker 1: I I love I'm so excited about it. I remember Um,

55
00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:24,840
Speaker 1: after shooting the Silk Fun music video with them, they

56
00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:29,480
Speaker 1: had like a bonfire at Naomi and Joe's house. Um,

57
00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:33,080
Speaker 1: and I remember we were talking about the album and

58
00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:34,840
Speaker 1: what they were excited about. This is eons ago and

59
00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:36,840
Speaker 1: I had been listening to Silk Fun all day, so

60
00:03:36,920 --> 00:03:38,960
Speaker 1: I was like addicted to it because it's such an

61
00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:41,280
Speaker 1: earworm and I mean that and it's a term of endearment,

62
00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:44,160
Speaker 1: and um, they were They were like, oh, we want

63
00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:45,760
Speaker 1: to show you this other song just to see what

64
00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:49,600
Speaker 1: you think. And they played what I Want and I

65
00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:52,360
Speaker 1: remember being like, oh, this is like such a bop

66
00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:54,160
Speaker 1: and they were like, well, Silk Chifn is for the

67
00:03:54,200 --> 00:03:57,000
Speaker 1: girls and what I Want is for the boys. We

68
00:03:57,040 --> 00:04:01,680
Speaker 1: love the musical binary love binaries. Yes, Um, that's very

69
00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:03,960
Speaker 1: exciting speaking of something that's for the girls. It was

70
00:04:04,040 --> 00:04:09,280
Speaker 1: just announced that Emma Roberts is joining The Spider Man

71
00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:14,560
Speaker 1: SeeU in Madam Webb alongside Dakota Johnson and Sydney Sweeney.

72
00:04:14,600 --> 00:04:17,920
Speaker 1: So Sony really said, gays, you will be watching this

73
00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:20,839
Speaker 1: superhero movie whether you like it or not, right, And

74
00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:24,679
Speaker 1: I mean I'm here for Sydney Sweeney obviously. Um, Emma

75
00:04:24,760 --> 00:04:27,360
Speaker 1: Roberts has never been my girl. Like, I really can't

76
00:04:27,520 --> 00:04:30,360
Speaker 1: tell the difference between her and all the other blonde

77
00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:33,160
Speaker 1: cast members of American Horror Story, right, who are all

78
00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:37,400
Speaker 1: who are all nepotism babies. Emma Roberts is Julia Roberts's niece,

79
00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:41,440
Speaker 1: Reilly Lord is Carrie Fisher's daughter. Um, Tessa Familia is

80
00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:44,359
Speaker 1: vera familiar sister, like they are all just related to

81
00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:47,000
Speaker 1: someone famous. They all look exactly the same. But I'm

82
00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:50,400
Speaker 1: totally behind this casting. I love that, like because I

83
00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:55,000
Speaker 1: think Spider Man is like a very just like boy

84
00:04:55,279 --> 00:04:59,960
Speaker 1: centric superhero universe. Um, except you know, we got Spy

85
00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:02,479
Speaker 1: or Gwen into the spider verse. But I really loved

86
00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:07,320
Speaker 1: the idea of like force feminizing spider Man, state sanctions

87
00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:11,400
Speaker 1: and spider Man it's like your favorite superhero absolutely without

88
00:05:11,440 --> 00:05:13,560
Speaker 1: a die. I mean, is that just because he's a twink?

89
00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:16,360
Speaker 1: I mean, I I it's probably because he shoots come

90
00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:18,800
Speaker 1: out of his hands, but I feel like for me, Yeah,

91
00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:21,120
Speaker 1: sorry for the visual, but I think you know I

92
00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:24,599
Speaker 1: love an underdog story. I have no shame in loving

93
00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:28,240
Speaker 1: Spider Man, even though it has been done to death. Well, um,

94
00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:30,039
Speaker 1: something that did not make me shoot come out of

95
00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:32,080
Speaker 1: my hands, but did make me feel really ashamed of

96
00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:35,400
Speaker 1: my love. That was um to two weeks ago. I

97
00:05:35,440 --> 00:05:38,799
Speaker 1: did something really dark, which was I watched the entire

98
00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:42,200
Speaker 1: final season of Love Victor in twenty four hours the

99
00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:45,400
Speaker 1: day it was released. Wait, I don't know that you

100
00:05:45,480 --> 00:05:50,000
Speaker 1: watched at all. With the whole over ours in twenty

101
00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:55,119
Speaker 1: four hours, that's really half an hour episodes. It's very easy. Yeah,

102
00:05:55,160 --> 00:05:57,880
Speaker 1: I did it in two sittings. I did once watch

103
00:05:57,880 --> 00:06:02,040
Speaker 1: a season of Love Victor in one sitting as well.

104
00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:05,520
Speaker 1: Really a story that I told about our live show

105
00:06:05,640 --> 00:06:08,720
Speaker 1: this this past this yesterday. It was, okay, I'll give

106
00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:13,560
Speaker 1: I'll give the abre I'm going to I'm going to

107
00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:16,440
Speaker 1: create editions, but I would love to hear you. Okay,

108
00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:18,720
Speaker 1: France took too much ammodium and was no, no, no, no,

109
00:06:18,720 --> 00:06:21,400
Speaker 1: no no, no, give me storytelling value. I'm going to

110
00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:25,279
Speaker 1: break it down. Fran, do it, Phoebe Maker do it.

111
00:06:25,320 --> 00:06:28,360
Speaker 1: Fran was okay, I'm gonna do it. Okay. So Fran

112
00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:31,760
Speaker 1: was on Fire Island wanted to bottom and so took

113
00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:36,000
Speaker 1: an ammonium but accidentally took two um and so had

114
00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:39,919
Speaker 1: a hard brick of ship in there and there colon

115
00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:43,520
Speaker 1: and there were no doctors on Fire Island famously has

116
00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:46,960
Speaker 1: no doctors. So had to spend eight hours sitting in

117
00:06:46,960 --> 00:06:50,680
Speaker 1: front of a TV watching Love Victor reclined, unable to

118
00:06:50,720 --> 00:06:54,239
Speaker 1: recline because reclining or laying down in any capacity hurt.

119
00:06:54,680 --> 00:06:58,440
Speaker 1: Because however, the you know, amorphous rock like turd was

120
00:06:58,520 --> 00:07:03,200
Speaker 1: adjusted into like my upper or lower intestine had like

121
00:07:03,760 --> 00:07:06,960
Speaker 1: it felt like the way it was large, like hurt

122
00:07:07,080 --> 00:07:10,840
Speaker 1: if I would move and also couldn't eat, could only

123
00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:13,960
Speaker 1: sit and watch Love Victor. I had to face time

124
00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:16,000
Speaker 1: a doctor and the doctor was like, do not under

125
00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:21,520
Speaker 1: any circumstances, so that only gatorade. All that to say,

126
00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:28,920
Speaker 1: Love Victor was um good. Well, maybe if I have

127
00:07:29,160 --> 00:07:32,920
Speaker 1: a medical emergency that keeps me in bed against my

128
00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:36,040
Speaker 1: will for eight hours, then I will I will watch it. Um.

129
00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:38,720
Speaker 1: The stupidest part of it, though, is that in the

130
00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:43,280
Speaker 1: final episode, Victor gets an award from his school for

131
00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:47,880
Speaker 1: being gay, which I don't think is a good thing,

132
00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:50,760
Speaker 1: although the show kind of frames that is like this

133
00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:53,000
Speaker 1: is kind of bad, but like ultimately kind of good

134
00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:55,440
Speaker 1: and like, I don't know, I want a scholarship for

135
00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:58,600
Speaker 1: being gay in high school. Basically I didn't even apply

136
00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:00,120
Speaker 1: for it and I got it, but they were just

137
00:08:00,240 --> 00:08:03,440
Speaker 1: kind of like, how much money was it? Actually? I

138
00:08:03,440 --> 00:08:05,320
Speaker 1: also don't think he got I don't think he got money.

139
00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:08,960
Speaker 1: He just got an award. Oh well, that's fucking stupid.

140
00:08:09,080 --> 00:08:11,360
Speaker 1: I something that I remember about the Love Victor franchises,

141
00:08:11,400 --> 00:08:14,440
Speaker 1: they try to paint them as like a working class family,

142
00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:16,160
Speaker 1: and that that just was not I mean, if you

143
00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:18,560
Speaker 1: any context clues, like in the show, you would know

144
00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:22,880
Speaker 1: that they are probably pretty middle class. Another thing I watched,

145
00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:28,400
Speaker 1: unfortunately was Elvis. Oh, you didn't like it? It was

146
00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:33,320
Speaker 1: so bad. Really. First of all, it's two hours and

147
00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:37,000
Speaker 1: forty minutes long. Well, I mean, it is bass and

148
00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:42,440
Speaker 1: it's just so disinterested in being about Elvis's life and

149
00:08:42,600 --> 00:08:46,800
Speaker 1: is much more interested in just being a bas Lerman movie. Yeah,

150
00:08:46,840 --> 00:08:50,560
Speaker 1: I'm such a bass stand so that doesn't sound that

151
00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:53,760
Speaker 1: bad to me. No, But like it's style over substance,

152
00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:57,000
Speaker 1: but the style isn't good. I love things that are

153
00:08:57,040 --> 00:08:59,760
Speaker 1: style over something, but the style has to be good.

154
00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:02,520
Speaker 1: The styles not was not good. You didn't like the

155
00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:06,880
Speaker 1: the Casey Musgraves cover, No, because what the point when

156
00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:10,920
Speaker 1: that happens? Like, I want to hear the actual song

157
00:09:11,679 --> 00:09:14,800
Speaker 1: in this Elvis biopic, not a cover of it, And

158
00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:16,680
Speaker 1: that was another problem I had with it. So the

159
00:09:16,720 --> 00:09:20,520
Speaker 1: movie ends when Elvis dies and then there's like a

160
00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:24,080
Speaker 1: clip montage of the real Elvis, which I hate when

161
00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:26,559
Speaker 1: that's done in biopics because it just makes me think

162
00:09:26,600 --> 00:09:29,040
Speaker 1: I should have just watched a documentary. And I also

163
00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:32,520
Speaker 1: think it undercuts the performance of the actor who's been

164
00:09:32,559 --> 00:09:35,120
Speaker 1: playing this character for the last almost three hours and

165
00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:37,920
Speaker 1: the movie did he die on the toilet? No, what

166
00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:40,040
Speaker 1: I didn't even know that that happened. All they say

167
00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:42,439
Speaker 1: is that he had a heart attack. Literally for me, like,

168
00:09:42,559 --> 00:09:44,760
Speaker 1: I think it's one of the most well known facts

169
00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:48,120
Speaker 1: of Elvis that he died from. I had no idea.

170
00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:51,440
Speaker 1: Well he did um after probably eating one of those

171
00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:55,440
Speaker 1: disgusting peanut butter and bacon sandwiches. Like peanut butter and bacon.

172
00:09:55,600 --> 00:09:59,160
Speaker 1: That sounds incredible. I mean that he would famously like

173
00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:01,360
Speaker 1: send a private jet to go pick up this like

174
00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:04,000
Speaker 1: special sandwich that was made at some sandwich shop that

175
00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:07,080
Speaker 1: had it was a full French baguette that was scooped

176
00:10:07,080 --> 00:10:11,040
Speaker 1: out and filled with a pound of peanut butter, a

177
00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:15,000
Speaker 1: pound of bacon, bananas, and I think honey or something

178
00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:18,679
Speaker 1: like that, and fried. I want one of those. Yeah,

179
00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:22,120
Speaker 1: I mean it is actually before I thought it was

180
00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:24,280
Speaker 1: really good. We should make them on Fire Island this

181
00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:28,080
Speaker 1: week and then maybe you'll be full of shit again.

182
00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:32,360
Speaker 1: Well I would never take two emmodium as the box

183
00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:38,080
Speaker 1: instructed ever again. Okay, Basilerman maybe had the second highest

184
00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:42,040
Speaker 1: anticipated film of this weekend after Buzz Lightyear. The Light

185
00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:45,400
Speaker 1: Year movie which you saw. I did see. Um, I've

186
00:10:45,440 --> 00:10:46,880
Speaker 1: been seeing a lot of movies just because I have

187
00:10:46,880 --> 00:10:48,480
Speaker 1: a lot more time on my hands. And now that

188
00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:52,520
Speaker 1: is you have the mc stuffs rewards membership, you are

189
00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:55,240
Speaker 1: cashing in. Mom. So I saw a light Year. It

190
00:10:55,360 --> 00:10:58,800
Speaker 1: was fine. It was not great, it was not bad.

191
00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:03,360
Speaker 1: It was just a totally fine animated movie. Um. I

192
00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:06,320
Speaker 1: don't have a lot of nostalgia tied to toy story. No.

193
00:11:06,559 --> 00:11:08,480
Speaker 1: I mean a lot of people say, like, oh, it's

194
00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:11,640
Speaker 1: one of the greatest animated films ever created. But and

195
00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:15,360
Speaker 1: it's I guess, like the the um framing of it

196
00:11:15,400 --> 00:11:18,360
Speaker 1: is kind of interesting because they said, like the way

197
00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:21,120
Speaker 1: they frame it is that this is the movie that

198
00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:26,079
Speaker 1: Andy saw. That the toy interesting. So like at the

199
00:11:26,120 --> 00:11:30,120
Speaker 1: beginning of the movie, it says Andy saw, like his

200
00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:33,120
Speaker 1: favorite movie, this is that movie. I love that they

201
00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:36,959
Speaker 1: are trying to convince us that there was a movie

202
00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:39,640
Speaker 1: that had one a black person in it and to

203
00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:43,640
Speaker 1: a gay kiss, a gay gay lesbian, a black lesbian,

204
00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:46,280
Speaker 1: a black gay character. I don't listen. I know that

205
00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:48,240
Speaker 1: there was this whole controversy about the gay kiss. I

206
00:11:48,280 --> 00:11:51,040
Speaker 1: don't even remember if they kissed in the movie. That

207
00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:53,600
Speaker 1: fucking sucks. But also it's not surprising at all. But

208
00:11:53,640 --> 00:11:57,240
Speaker 1: I do remember, like what I thought was nice about

209
00:11:57,280 --> 00:11:59,880
Speaker 1: it was that, So the whole story is that buzz.

210
00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:02,400
Speaker 1: It's like going on these missions and they only take

211
00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:04,920
Speaker 1: a couple of minutes for him, but on the planet

212
00:12:04,920 --> 00:12:07,640
Speaker 1: that he's coming from, it takes like four years. So

213
00:12:07,640 --> 00:12:09,640
Speaker 1: when he comes back for the first time, his like

214
00:12:10,440 --> 00:12:14,000
Speaker 1: partner is like, oh, I got married while you were gone,

215
00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:16,320
Speaker 1: and he says, oh, who is what's her name? Like,

216
00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:20,079
Speaker 1: and there's no kind of like mo like weird moment.

217
00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:22,959
Speaker 1: He it's just like very casual, which I really appreciated,

218
00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:26,640
Speaker 1: Like I think that is a good representation, especially in

219
00:12:26,640 --> 00:12:29,120
Speaker 1: a kids movie. And they show her with her wife

220
00:12:29,120 --> 00:12:33,360
Speaker 1: and like her her son and like eventual grandchild. Um.

221
00:12:33,520 --> 00:12:36,080
Speaker 1: But this is like the first gay kiss in a

222
00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:39,000
Speaker 1: Disney I'm just so tired of Disney being like this

223
00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:41,920
Speaker 1: is our first game, like this is our first rim

224
00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:44,680
Speaker 1: job scene in the Pixar movie, and every single time

225
00:12:44,679 --> 00:12:48,120
Speaker 1: it's like a gay time's like headline Instagram post. And

226
00:12:48,160 --> 00:12:50,400
Speaker 1: I saw one the other day that was like Disney

227
00:12:50,440 --> 00:12:55,200
Speaker 1: to premiere the first openly gay teen romance, and I

228
00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:57,560
Speaker 1: was like, well, first of all that would suggest that

229
00:12:57,600 --> 00:13:03,440
Speaker 1: they were closeted and stealth teen romances in previous Disney film.

230
00:13:03,520 --> 00:13:05,920
Speaker 1: None of this, None of these words are in the Bible.

231
00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:09,480
Speaker 1: Like I'm so done with the first, Like you know what,

232
00:13:09,559 --> 00:13:12,920
Speaker 1: this is the first fucking on air felching on a

233
00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:29,800
Speaker 1: podcast about Buckle Up Virgins for the Virgins listening yesterday,

234
00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:34,600
Speaker 1: we are talking about Glee, the Fox Ryan Murphy TV

235
00:13:34,720 --> 00:13:38,960
Speaker 1: show that had an ironclad grip on pop culture in

236
00:13:39,160 --> 00:13:45,080
Speaker 1: the like early the Obama era, the Obama Oh my god,

237
00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:48,200
Speaker 1: if if you exactly, if you want, if you want

238
00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:51,800
Speaker 1: to encapsulation of what the Obama era was like in media,

239
00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:53,840
Speaker 1: it was Glee. I feel that way. I feel that

240
00:13:53,840 --> 00:13:56,400
Speaker 1: Glee is the quintess Glee and True Blood are the

241
00:13:56,480 --> 00:14:01,040
Speaker 1: quintessential cultural products of the Obama. We should have done

242
00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:02,760
Speaker 1: this episode on True Blood. I mean, we can talk

243
00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:05,320
Speaker 1: about True Blood too, but they're kind of two sides

244
00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:08,599
Speaker 1: of the same coin, and they are absolutely in conversation

245
00:14:08,640 --> 00:14:11,880
Speaker 1: with each other. Well because they're both like really really

246
00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:17,880
Speaker 1: off the rails kind of like psychotic, yes, psychotically told um,

247
00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:23,520
Speaker 1: you know, drama soaps that appealed to you know, also

248
00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:25,600
Speaker 1: anyone who doesn't know, Ty, can you give like a

249
00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:29,320
Speaker 1: t l DR very brief summary of what Glee is about.

250
00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:35,760
Speaker 1: Glee is a musical comedy on that aired on Fox

251
00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:42,080
Speaker 1: about a high school glee club made up of losers

252
00:14:42,160 --> 00:14:46,760
Speaker 1: and rejects and then very quickly also popular people competing

253
00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:50,960
Speaker 1: for various titles that got higher in stakes as the

254
00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:56,640
Speaker 1: show went on, and who were continually um attempted to

255
00:14:56,640 --> 00:15:00,680
Speaker 1: sabotage at sabotage by Plankton asque super Lynd played by

256
00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:07,120
Speaker 1: Jane Lynch, Sue Sylvester say her name, Um. Yeah. The

257
00:15:07,160 --> 00:15:10,520
Speaker 1: inciting incident of it is that the cool kid at

258
00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:15,760
Speaker 1: school gets blackmailed by his teacher into joining the glee club,

259
00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:21,320
Speaker 1: thus creating this sort of tension between the rejects and

260
00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:24,520
Speaker 1: the cool kid, and Lea Michelle is a reject and

261
00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:27,880
Speaker 1: the guy is the cool kid. Yes, Um and more

262
00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:31,360
Speaker 1: cool people joined the glee club because the cheerleading coach,

263
00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:35,160
Speaker 1: Sue Sylvester sends them in as like um spies, but

264
00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:37,440
Speaker 1: then you know they actually like it. It ran for

265
00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:42,440
Speaker 1: five seasons six seven. I believe I only watched two.

266
00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:44,920
Speaker 1: I want to be clear about that going into the beginning.

267
00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:47,520
Speaker 1: I have only watched two seasons of Glee. I have

268
00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:51,440
Speaker 1: watched clips of other seasons of it, but that was

269
00:15:51,760 --> 00:15:56,720
Speaker 1: all I could do. I'm going to um muscle through

270
00:15:56,720 --> 00:15:58,640
Speaker 1: a blanket statement that y'all can you know, help me

271
00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:01,080
Speaker 1: maybe fix if it's an act. But I feel like

272
00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:05,240
Speaker 1: Glee came onto the scene at like another wave of

273
00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:10,240
Speaker 1: like gay representation post Will and Grace that was trying

274
00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:13,600
Speaker 1: to that. That I think created a new era of

275
00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:17,640
Speaker 1: like gaze on TV that were not Jack. You know,

276
00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:20,200
Speaker 1: there was a lot of Jack I think still in

277
00:16:20,240 --> 00:16:23,640
Speaker 1: the show. Yeah, because Chris Colfer's character like is just

278
00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:26,080
Speaker 1: a different version of that kind of gay. But the

279
00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:29,560
Speaker 1: thing about Ryan Murphy's comedic stylings is that he really

280
00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:33,120
Speaker 1: was maybe not Ryan Murphy specifically, but the Glees comedic

281
00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:37,000
Speaker 1: stillings were like very like crass. They weren't afraid to

282
00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:41,040
Speaker 1: make like really inappropriate jokes. I think that a lot

283
00:16:41,160 --> 00:16:44,520
Speaker 1: was incredibly problematic and afraid to do that. That's the

284
00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:49,440
Speaker 1: thing is the show developed a social conscience over the

285
00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:51,400
Speaker 1: course of its run, and that's why that's part of

286
00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:53,320
Speaker 1: why I feel like it's really quinte essentially like an

287
00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:57,400
Speaker 1: Obama Obama agricultural product, is that the show kind of

288
00:16:58,640 --> 00:17:02,440
Speaker 1: became reactive to itself and to feedback to it, and

289
00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:05,639
Speaker 1: became a show that was very self aware about a

290
00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:09,840
Speaker 1: certain kind of responsibility towards representation. Yes, yes, because I

291
00:17:09,880 --> 00:17:13,520
Speaker 1: do think when it started, I remember the first episode

292
00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:18,359
Speaker 1: previewed a couple of months before the actual season premiered.

293
00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:22,199
Speaker 1: I think it was maybe like before the finale of

294
00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:26,120
Speaker 1: a season of American Idol or something. It was American

295
00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:29,000
Speaker 1: Idol Area, And I remember watching it with my roommate

296
00:17:29,080 --> 00:17:33,000
Speaker 1: and we thought it was the coolest, most transgressive thing ever.

297
00:17:33,160 --> 00:17:36,159
Speaker 1: And I do think the early episodes of that show

298
00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:41,159
Speaker 1: are pretty radical for what was on TV at the time,

299
00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:44,560
Speaker 1: and like the kind of jokes they were making, um,

300
00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:48,760
Speaker 1: the audience that they were catering to, the identities that

301
00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:51,440
Speaker 1: they were centering. But you're right, and that it became

302
00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:57,480
Speaker 1: too self aware, um, and too scared of saying the

303
00:17:57,520 --> 00:18:00,760
Speaker 1: wrong thing. I can only speak for like the first season,

304
00:18:01,240 --> 00:18:04,480
Speaker 1: I feel like the gay characters in the show, we're

305
00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:08,000
Speaker 1: like pretty neutered, like because it was like still for

306
00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:11,840
Speaker 1: like a really young audience, neutered and tortured. Like the

307
00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:15,720
Speaker 1: whole season two is about Kurt being bullied. Yeah, it's

308
00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:18,080
Speaker 1: a lot of like bullying stuff. However, I remember, I

309
00:18:18,119 --> 00:18:20,520
Speaker 1: think very it gets better in my mind. I remember

310
00:18:20,560 --> 00:18:22,560
Speaker 1: hating the show when it like when I watched that

311
00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:25,160
Speaker 1: after I'm finishing the first season. But I do remember

312
00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:29,680
Speaker 1: feeling like I hadn't really watched something that had multiple

313
00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:33,480
Speaker 1: gay characters, and also like characters that or rather storylines

314
00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:36,080
Speaker 1: that were invested in the romance were like in something

315
00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:39,720
Speaker 1: like Will and Grace, like or other sitcom sitcom you

316
00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:42,560
Speaker 1: kind of vibes it's like they will never talk about

317
00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:44,880
Speaker 1: sex and there was like no kissing really on Will

318
00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:46,720
Speaker 1: and Grace or whatever. Obviously that was like the dawn

319
00:18:46,760 --> 00:18:49,320
Speaker 1: of like a lot of gay people on TV. But

320
00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:51,800
Speaker 1: kurt storyline was really I mean, I think if you

321
00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:53,760
Speaker 1: follow kurt storyline over the course of the show, you

322
00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:55,680
Speaker 1: do see that kind of self awareness in the sense

323
00:18:55,720 --> 00:18:58,240
Speaker 1: that like Kurt starts out as like bullied, and then

324
00:18:58,240 --> 00:19:00,320
Speaker 1: the bullying gets worse, and then his relationship with father

325
00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:04,359
Speaker 1: gets strained, and then he meets Blaine from the Warblers,

326
00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:09,360
Speaker 1: and we get to watch a gay character get everything

327
00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:12,320
Speaker 1: that he wants, basically, like he restores his relationship with

328
00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:16,199
Speaker 1: his dad, he has a boyfriend who is beautiful, he

329
00:19:16,359 --> 00:19:20,640
Speaker 1: like goes off to the Warblers Dalton Academy and like

330
00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:23,520
Speaker 1: gets to gets to have like a community of like

331
00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:27,160
Speaker 1: young gay kids or or at least gay tolerant people.

332
00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:30,720
Speaker 1: He moves off to New York with Leah Michelle like

333
00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:35,680
Speaker 1: becomes friends with Sarah Jessica Parker. Wait, does Sarah Jessica

334
00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:39,560
Speaker 1: Parker play herself? She comes and sings Let's have a

335
00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:44,280
Speaker 1: Kiki mashed up with the Turkey Lurkey song for herself

336
00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:47,480
Speaker 1: or she playing a character? She always plays herself, really,

337
00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:54,000
Speaker 1: she kind of does. There were some great guest stars,

338
00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:58,640
Speaker 1: Like I know Kate Hudson was on it for a minute,

339
00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:02,760
Speaker 1: Me and he leaks. First season, you had Adena and

340
00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:06,600
Speaker 1: Kristen Adina Menzel playing Liam Michelle's mother was one of

341
00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:11,159
Speaker 1: the best casting choices I think ever. Demilovado, Lindsay Lohan,

342
00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:14,639
Speaker 1: Perez Hilton, Britney Spears was on this. She was on

343
00:20:14,680 --> 00:20:17,159
Speaker 1: the Britney episode, like very briefly, just they let her

344
00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:23,439
Speaker 1: make a quick cameo and the conservators of the conservatorship, um,

345
00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:25,240
Speaker 1: we were going to watch an episode of Glee the

346
00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:28,920
Speaker 1: other night. It's famously not on any streaming platform for

347
00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:31,239
Speaker 1: a while. Yeah, it was removed and now it's not

348
00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:34,280
Speaker 1: anywhere streamable. But I really wanted to watch the Madonna episode,

349
00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:36,439
Speaker 1: which I do think is the best episode of Glee

350
00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:38,639
Speaker 1: of the two seasons that I've watched. What happens in

351
00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:40,560
Speaker 1: that episode, it's just they do a bunch of Madonna

352
00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:44,200
Speaker 1: numbers and it's amazing. Nothing further was Madonna that when

353
00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:45,879
Speaker 1: they did that was the like a virgin? Was that

354
00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:50,280
Speaker 1: when they did like a virgin? Whenever they yes, they

355
00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:53,040
Speaker 1: they do like a Virgin? Yeah, it would have been

356
00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:55,480
Speaker 1: so perfect for this podcast. I know, right we had

357
00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:58,879
Speaker 1: watched it. What was like your first impression of the show, Like,

358
00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:00,760
Speaker 1: when did you watch it as it came out? Do

359
00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:03,520
Speaker 1: you remember what we were saying? So I I was

360
00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:07,639
Speaker 1: in high school. I was I was a debate kid obviously,

361
00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:12,399
Speaker 1: Oh my god, that's such a good fact about you.

362
00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:15,800
Speaker 1: And when to have a particularly strong theater program at

363
00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:17,919
Speaker 1: my high school, there was just like it wasn't funded

364
00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:19,760
Speaker 1: at all. There was a high turnover on the people

365
00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:21,640
Speaker 1: who were teaching it, and there was just not very

366
00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:23,680
Speaker 1: much interest. So we didn't really have much of a

367
00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:26,760
Speaker 1: theater program. We did like one musical in the whole

368
00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:29,399
Speaker 1: four years that I was there, and I kept wanting

369
00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:32,960
Speaker 1: to apply to the theater magnet school, and like would

370
00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:35,439
Speaker 1: kind of get started application every year and then like

371
00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:37,240
Speaker 1: not go through with it because I just wanted to

372
00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:39,080
Speaker 1: stay at my same high school with all my friends.

373
00:21:39,119 --> 00:21:41,160
Speaker 1: But I did become really close friends with a bunch

374
00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:42,760
Speaker 1: of people who were at theater program, and so I

375
00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:47,879
Speaker 1: was kind of like living vicariously like through these like

376
00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:53,000
Speaker 1: gleaked up theater friends and also through like drawing parallels

377
00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:55,679
Speaker 1: between my whole like debate team experience in Glee. But

378
00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:58,360
Speaker 1: I was like in I was in high school, as

379
00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:01,600
Speaker 1: Glee was happening, I would come to my like English

380
00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:05,000
Speaker 1: class and sit next to my English teacher and gag

381
00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:08,439
Speaker 1: about Glee every week. Um, so you were a Glee

382
00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:10,359
Speaker 1: I was. I was fully a Glee. I was fully

383
00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:12,280
Speaker 1: in it. I loved it. I was obsessed with it.

384
00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:14,040
Speaker 1: And then when I went to college, was around the

385
00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:17,840
Speaker 1: same time that it was like season four, season three

386
00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:20,000
Speaker 1: probably happened, and it did start to get like the

387
00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:24,040
Speaker 1: humor started to get not as good, and the like

388
00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:27,439
Speaker 1: social message became stronger and stronger. Can we have a

389
00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:30,800
Speaker 1: brief aside to talk about the relationships between gay people

390
00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:34,399
Speaker 1: and their English teachers because I came out. My English

391
00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:36,560
Speaker 1: teacher was maybe the fourth or fifth person I ever

392
00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:40,480
Speaker 1: came out too. Like period, I had a like, let's

393
00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:42,840
Speaker 1: have a Kiki kind of relationship. What was your English teacher?

394
00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:46,200
Speaker 1: Like missed of all was my ap lit teacher and

395
00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:49,880
Speaker 1: a loose cannon. And she was a total blast. And

396
00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:52,840
Speaker 1: she like seated me next to her, not because she

397
00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:55,879
Speaker 1: had to watch me, but because we would gab like

398
00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:58,720
Speaker 1: most of the glass because I was like I was

399
00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:00,359
Speaker 1: like bored most of the time, because I was just

400
00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:02,440
Speaker 1: like finished my work. She once famously said that I

401
00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:04,800
Speaker 1: could shoot out an a or like a nine a

402
00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:09,120
Speaker 1: p essay. You know, I'm sure you could. I'm sure

403
00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:11,680
Speaker 1: it was probably not kind of pedagogy to like very

404
00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:15,400
Speaker 1: very clearly like like call out like a better student

405
00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:17,920
Speaker 1: than everyone else. I had a I had an English teacher.

406
00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:19,840
Speaker 1: This was an English teacher that I was had like

407
00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:22,440
Speaker 1: a really good relationship with. But my my last APT

408
00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:26,760
Speaker 1: teacher teacher, his last year of teaching English at our school,

409
00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:29,880
Speaker 1: he just like was over it. And his whole thing

410
00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:33,040
Speaker 1: it was so amazing. His name is Mr. Brown. His

411
00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:36,800
Speaker 1: whole thing was that he was an atheist and if

412
00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:38,800
Speaker 1: you went into his class, and this is we were

413
00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:41,080
Speaker 1: in the Midwest, where like atheism is like kind of

414
00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:44,120
Speaker 1: a little like not everyone believes in God, but like

415
00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:46,560
Speaker 1: it's taboo to be an atheist, Like that's kind of

416
00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:50,280
Speaker 1: culturally where I was, UM, And if you had to

417
00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:52,280
Speaker 1: take a class from Mr Brown, you were told ahead

418
00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:54,280
Speaker 1: of time that he was an atheist and like be

419
00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:56,720
Speaker 1: prepared for that or whatever. And in his last year

420
00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:00,960
Speaker 1: he was fully arguing with Christian high schoolers about the

421
00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:04,160
Speaker 1: existence of God. I was just like, and only now

422
00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:07,280
Speaker 1: am I Like that is kind of crazy, Like that

423
00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:11,440
Speaker 1: is a crazy thing to do as a full grown man.

424
00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:13,720
Speaker 1: Teacher would be like, I don't remember any of my

425
00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:16,560
Speaker 1: English teachers names, but like, I think it's interesting that

426
00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:18,399
Speaker 1: you talk about, you know, how you were a debate

427
00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:21,720
Speaker 1: kid and that gave you sort of like an understanding

428
00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:24,720
Speaker 1: of what was being enacted on the screen. I was

429
00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:29,360
Speaker 1: a theater kid, so obviously, like Glee was deeply triggering

430
00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:32,920
Speaker 1: and traumatizing for me because some it was playing out

431
00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:35,760
Speaker 1: so much of like what was going on social, socioculturally

432
00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:40,480
Speaker 1: in my life in high school. Um. I never did

433
00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:43,000
Speaker 1: choir or anything, though, so it was like a little

434
00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:47,240
Speaker 1: different but like they did put on shows sometimes, and

435
00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:49,960
Speaker 1: like they did so many show tunes and some of

436
00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:53,200
Speaker 1: them were amazing, Like the Glee cast version of some

437
00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:57,840
Speaker 1: songs are great, Um, don't ran on My Parade? Like

438
00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:00,879
Speaker 1: that is one of Lea Michelle's shining moments in life.

439
00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:07,440
Speaker 1: Or her performance of My Man incredible, really really good

440
00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:11,320
Speaker 1: my Man? What is transcendent about it? I don't even

441
00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:15,520
Speaker 1: She's just so good. It's just really good. Are we

442
00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:19,119
Speaker 1: all still today able to say, like Leah Michelle is

443
00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:22,960
Speaker 1: so good it's a rude it's incredibly talented. She is

444
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:26,320
Speaker 1: so fierce enough, just barely fierce enough to get away

445
00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:30,480
Speaker 1: with how rude she is barely Yeah, but it's is

446
00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:32,159
Speaker 1: it like the fact that she's difficult to work with,

447
00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:35,440
Speaker 1: that she doesn't have work anymore. Well, she did her

448
00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:38,840
Speaker 1: post Glee work was still in the Ryan Murphy verse.

449
00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:42,760
Speaker 1: She did Scream Queens, and she was great on Scream Queens.

450
00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:45,000
Speaker 1: I didn't know she did Scream Queen. Yeah. That's another thing,

451
00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:47,760
Speaker 1: is that Ryan Murphy's reputation when Glee came out was

452
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:51,680
Speaker 1: that he was edgy because his prior work was and popular.

453
00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:55,840
Speaker 1: He wasn't yet known as like that faggot. If you actually, like,

454
00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:58,679
Speaker 1: if you're looking at the chronology of Ryan Murphy and

455
00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:01,679
Speaker 1: you want to see the thing most clearly led to Glee,

456
00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:05,239
Speaker 1: It is Popular, which is a show, a show that

457
00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:09,200
Speaker 1: was on the WB for two seasons, um, and is

458
00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:12,760
Speaker 1: about a popular girl and an unpopular girl whose parents

459
00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:16,520
Speaker 1: get married so they become step sisters. And it is

460
00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:22,199
Speaker 1: so good. Um. What's what's her name? One? Yeah, the

461
00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:24,719
Speaker 1: one she's in a lot of the rhyme. Yeah. She

462
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:27,080
Speaker 1: she plays this character Mary Cherry, which is really funny

463
00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:32,840
Speaker 1: because of the other Mary Cherry. Um, and she's so good. Ums.

464
00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:39,159
Speaker 1: Like I've always wondered, like, what is Ryan Murphy's like you?

465
00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:42,080
Speaker 1: I guess you see these adult creators who are so

466
00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:46,040
Speaker 1: clearly working out their own trauma in their work, and

467
00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:49,320
Speaker 1: it's like, when is Ryan Murphy going to get over

468
00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:52,120
Speaker 1: whatever happened to him in high school? He was from Indiana,

469
00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:55,760
Speaker 1: that must be said, that is a lot of trauma

470
00:26:55,840 --> 00:27:00,200
Speaker 1: built in. That's a gay filmmaker, think to Stevens did too,

471
00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:03,439
Speaker 1: but he just coming back to Alan Ball did that

472
00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:05,320
Speaker 1: with six ft Under worked out a lot of his

473
00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:07,159
Speaker 1: like gay stuff. I think that's just like and he

474
00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:11,720
Speaker 1: did it like gay artists have been and I don't know,

475
00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:14,520
Speaker 1: I don't think that's a terrible thing. That's the thing too,

476
00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:17,800
Speaker 1: is that we look back at Glee as like cringe

477
00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:22,440
Speaker 1: e thing that kids watched, when like, at least those

478
00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:24,639
Speaker 1: first two seasons, it was such a parody. It was

479
00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:27,359
Speaker 1: such a parody of high school show. It was like

480
00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:30,439
Speaker 1: it was it was making fun of itself and of

481
00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:36,119
Speaker 1: the entire genre of like high school dramas. It was

482
00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:38,720
Speaker 1: like very much laughing at itself and at the genre

483
00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:42,680
Speaker 1: is getting into until it's like, for some reason wasn't

484
00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:44,480
Speaker 1: or wasn't doing it as success And a lot of

485
00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:47,680
Speaker 1: the jokes are dated now. I just I remember watching

486
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:50,280
Speaker 1: the show as it aired and feeling like whoa, Like

487
00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:52,800
Speaker 1: that's a really in the no joke, Like that is

488
00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:55,960
Speaker 1: a joke that I like, very clearly understand because it's

489
00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:57,560
Speaker 1: something that I went through, Like makes fun of something

490
00:27:57,600 --> 00:27:59,080
Speaker 1: that I went through. A lot of the writing was

491
00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:02,000
Speaker 1: very smart, but a lot of it was also very okay.

492
00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:04,800
Speaker 1: If you had to be in when Santana calls Rachel,

493
00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:07,639
Speaker 1: if you had to be in one of the groups

494
00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:13,720
Speaker 1: New Directions Vocal Adrenaline, the cheer Squad, which one would

495
00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:15,479
Speaker 1: you want? Are these all the clicks? These are all

496
00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:17,639
Speaker 1: the different glee class I would be in the Warblers.

497
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:19,760
Speaker 1: I would be one. Are the Warblers. They're the one

498
00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:22,080
Speaker 1: that at the prep school that that Kurt was in.

499
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:25,800
Speaker 1: Is the raven clause? Is he still dating Darren Chris

500
00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:27,400
Speaker 1: when he goes to the Warblers? Or are they over?

501
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:29,600
Speaker 1: But that's when they meet. Oh that's when they meet.

502
00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:34,840
Speaker 1: Oh it's so And Blaine is singing Teenage Dream with

503
00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:37,560
Speaker 1: that was a moment too, And like Kurt just happens

504
00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:41,000
Speaker 1: to stumble upon the Warblers singing Teenage Dream and Blaine

505
00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:44,560
Speaker 1: is like swinging, like winking and smiling like at Kurt.

506
00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:46,440
Speaker 1: It's like, I mean good. And then when they break

507
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:49,640
Speaker 1: up three years later or two years later, Blaine like

508
00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:53,960
Speaker 1: does this like kind of drunk, like really pathetic, like

509
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:58,120
Speaker 1: reprise of Teenage Dream at this Beano bar in New York.

510
00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:02,479
Speaker 1: At this stage it is like I'm cleaking out. I'm

511
00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:18,000
Speaker 1: cleanking out, guys cleaking When you think about devices to explain,

512
00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:23,920
Speaker 1: like the constant performances of musical numbers in a TV

513
00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:27,080
Speaker 1: show like a glee club club is a good conceit

514
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:29,080
Speaker 1: Like it does make sense that they would be singing

515
00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:31,760
Speaker 1: a lot. But the thing is like they were doing

516
00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:34,880
Speaker 1: these full musical numbers or like, I think a thing

517
00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:37,200
Speaker 1: that always annoyed me was that they would be rehearsing

518
00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:39,840
Speaker 1: and then like Rachel would just look over at the

519
00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:42,600
Speaker 1: band that was always playing with them, when the band

520
00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:45,440
Speaker 1: would always already like have an arrangement of the song

521
00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:49,720
Speaker 1: ready to go, and everyone like a companist. Okay, and

522
00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:52,360
Speaker 1: that's that's what it is you have to do they

523
00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:55,000
Speaker 1: have like did they have a songbook they were working on?

524
00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:58,240
Speaker 1: I'm sure where was the budget for all the costumes

525
00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:00,640
Speaker 1: that they did or the song license You still had

526
00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:03,480
Speaker 1: to pay for licensing if you performed these on like

527
00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:06,520
Speaker 1: the stage, but at least but Glee was like and

528
00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:09,640
Speaker 1: and in terms of licensing, like they must have spent

529
00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:11,920
Speaker 1: so much money licensing those songs for the show. But

530
00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:16,160
Speaker 1: like also the Glee music was an economy unto itself

531
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:19,440
Speaker 1: because this album sold, They did tours. Did you ever

532
00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:22,680
Speaker 1: go see a tour time at all? I never went to.

533
00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:25,760
Speaker 1: I don't do concerts on Oh there we go. I

534
00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:30,440
Speaker 1: feel like there's a short king. I feel like the

535
00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:33,200
Speaker 1: the thing to me, I think the reason I didn't

536
00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:36,800
Speaker 1: like the show like around the time it was out,

537
00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:39,440
Speaker 1: was in large part of the music. Actually, like I

538
00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:41,600
Speaker 1: think the music was a barrier to entry for me

539
00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:43,440
Speaker 1: because that was the whole point of the show, I know,

540
00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:45,600
Speaker 1: but I had moved on from that because I was

541
00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:48,320
Speaker 1: like a theater kid, and by the time the show

542
00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:52,280
Speaker 1: was really coming out, I feel like I was, um,

543
00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:55,440
Speaker 1: I don't know, hating hating theater and hating musicals. Were

544
00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:58,480
Speaker 1: you weren't you close? Uh No, I wasn't close. Or

545
00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:01,840
Speaker 1: maybe actually I don't remember. I need to, Actually I should.

546
00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:05,400
Speaker 1: I need to learn what my actual life timeline is

547
00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:07,600
Speaker 1: is what I should remember. I feel like by the

548
00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:13,240
Speaker 1: time Glee was out, I was really invested in the thing,

549
00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:16,280
Speaker 1: in like cultural things that I knew that I could

550
00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:19,480
Speaker 1: get better than my peers because I was gay and

551
00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:21,560
Speaker 1: so like A big reason that I was so into

552
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:24,120
Speaker 1: Lady Gaga when I was in high school is because

553
00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:27,400
Speaker 1: I could be like I I felt that I could

554
00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:30,120
Speaker 1: get the references and understand this, that I had some

555
00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:34,320
Speaker 1: kind of like affinity towards this thing, Like I get

556
00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:36,920
Speaker 1: this in a way that the other people around me didn't,

557
00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:39,800
Speaker 1: and that actually made me feel really good about myself.

558
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:41,520
Speaker 1: It made me feel like I was really good at

559
00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:45,720
Speaker 1: something or had some kind of like, um, exceptionalism to

560
00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:48,400
Speaker 1: like my personality, And I think Glee was really similar.

561
00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:50,720
Speaker 1: Even though it was a hit show. I felt like,

562
00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:52,320
Speaker 1: you know, I could keep key with my English teacher

563
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:54,320
Speaker 1: about it in a way that like I was more

564
00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:59,920
Speaker 1: grown and more like sophisticated. But at the time, because

565
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:03,720
Speaker 1: I was like, it wasn't there Also, Um, the Glee

566
00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:07,120
Speaker 1: Project wasn't that where people like auditioned to be on

567
00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:09,000
Speaker 1: Glee and it has a reality show, have a friend

568
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:12,280
Speaker 1: that was on it. That's how Oliviard rigo No, no, no,

569
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:15,320
Speaker 1: She's difference all the musical the series. Um, but the

570
00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:18,720
Speaker 1: Glee Project was a reality show where kids were competing

571
00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:21,960
Speaker 1: to be on Glee. And um, that's where Alex Newell

572
00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:25,960
Speaker 1: is from. Like Tony nominee Alex Newell, the Glee Project

573
00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:29,880
Speaker 1: invented Alex Newell because Alex eventually went on the show

574
00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:32,600
Speaker 1: to write Yeah. I think so. I wasn't watching at

575
00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:34,800
Speaker 1: that point, but I think they were one of the

576
00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:38,080
Speaker 1: ones who made it onto Glee. Um and Glee, I

577
00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:40,440
Speaker 1: mean as far as I know from what I've seen online,

578
00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:43,040
Speaker 1: because I think every couple of weeks there's a thing

579
00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:45,400
Speaker 1: on Twitter where someone clips out a scene from Gleen

580
00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:48,240
Speaker 1: is like can you believe this happened? Um, And a

581
00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:50,719
Speaker 1: lot of times it's like it is really crazy, Like

582
00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:53,840
Speaker 1: the one I saw recently was Sue Sylvester doing super Base,

583
00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:56,840
Speaker 1: which like is crazy in and of itself. But my

584
00:32:56,880 --> 00:32:59,480
Speaker 1: favorite version of that is the video where someone has

585
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:04,320
Speaker 1: edited Vulk from Suspiria onto it. But I do think

586
00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:07,320
Speaker 1: the show got a lot gayer as the years went

587
00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:10,960
Speaker 1: on in terms of like I think one of the

588
00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:13,400
Speaker 1: reasons that teenagers really liked it is because it was

589
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:16,680
Speaker 1: one of the few shows on TV that had queer

590
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:21,200
Speaker 1: relationships on it, Like Santana and Brittany haven't had a

591
00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:24,720
Speaker 1: huge stand um and still due to this day, you know,

592
00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:28,000
Speaker 1: Kurt and Blaine, like they were in the fan fiction world,

593
00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:32,400
Speaker 1: they were huge. I never read any Glee fan fiction,

594
00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:36,040
Speaker 1: but they were like a monolith and it was highly

595
00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:40,000
Speaker 1: it was satisfying, you know, And I don't really feel

596
00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:41,600
Speaker 1: that I guess I don't know in this weird way,

597
00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:44,760
Speaker 1: I like this Ryan Murphy apologist because like the this

598
00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:49,840
Speaker 1: like Ryan Murphy self describes his style as Barroke, and

599
00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:53,600
Speaker 1: I think that like as as queer people. We do.

600
00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:57,200
Speaker 1: We've gotten fatigued with the right maximal style and really

601
00:33:57,240 --> 00:34:01,280
Speaker 1: tired of it. But I think that there is something

602
00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:11,000
Speaker 1: there about feeling squeamish about really really highly visible gay

603
00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:16,200
Speaker 1: style in in a mainstream place where everyone can see it,

604
00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:19,560
Speaker 1: and that there's something embarrassing about that for us as

605
00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:21,080
Speaker 1: queer people. And I don't know, I think it's as

606
00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:24,120
Speaker 1: simple as like internalized homophobia, but that it's it's for

607
00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:25,759
Speaker 1: some it's for the same reason that we kind of

608
00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:28,920
Speaker 1: have a hard time standing gay recording artists. Is like

609
00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:33,080
Speaker 1: we have a hard time standing a show runner who

610
00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:41,160
Speaker 1: is so unapologetically and and um clearly gay in all

611
00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:45,480
Speaker 1: the ways that he works that we're like embarrassing really

612
00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:49,600
Speaker 1: was like a pinnacle of like diversity, at least at

613
00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:52,520
Speaker 1: the time. I think that we have things that are like,

614
00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:56,120
Speaker 1: you know, a lot more intersectional now. But like all

615
00:34:56,160 --> 00:34:58,160
Speaker 1: of his projects, I mean, if I were to give

616
00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:00,879
Speaker 1: Ryan Murphy credit on anything, he did set like new

617
00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:05,080
Speaker 1: standards on casting, Like he was always casting like disabled actors,

618
00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:07,880
Speaker 1: he was always casting queer people, but he was also

619
00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:10,839
Speaker 1: always casting straight people to play queer people. Yes, I mean,

620
00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:12,680
Speaker 1: but that you know, I mean that was just like

621
00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:16,800
Speaker 1: also like a casting standard unfortunately, like in the early aughts. Still,

622
00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:19,400
Speaker 1: I mean and Darren Chris even I feel like that

623
00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:21,160
Speaker 1: was the beginning of Darren Chris, like playing gay and

624
00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:23,960
Speaker 1: projects and then when he said he vowed to never

625
00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:27,680
Speaker 1: play a gay character again after doing it, like after

626
00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:30,759
Speaker 1: winning an Emmy for it, that's what he said. Enough,

627
00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:33,960
Speaker 1: But to your point, Hi, I feel like, um that

628
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:36,319
Speaker 1: whole Like, yeah, I agree, It's not as simple as

629
00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:39,719
Speaker 1: hating yourself. It's kind of like there's a kind of like,

630
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:44,719
Speaker 1: um fear that happens when representation quote unquote of sorts

631
00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:48,440
Speaker 1: like hits a mass popularity, because all of a sudden,

632
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:51,960
Speaker 1: you're like, oh, everyone doesn't think that like this is

633
00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:54,719
Speaker 1: me or that like immediately you kind of fear being

634
00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:58,600
Speaker 1: flattened because that's what you don't want. You're queer, Like yes, yes,

635
00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:02,000
Speaker 1: yes you want to. I'm sure you honestly, Hummel. I

636
00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:04,360
Speaker 1: hate to invoke this, but I'm thinking a lot about

637
00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:10,360
Speaker 1: the Fire Island TV show that debuted on Logo like

638
00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:12,439
Speaker 1: a few years ago. Do you remember like the kind

639
00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:16,160
Speaker 1: of media like craze around that, like the the the

640
00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:19,560
Speaker 1: overwhelming sentiment and like the thing pieces and the things

641
00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:22,479
Speaker 1: that people were saying on social media was like this

642
00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:27,360
Speaker 1: is like a symbol of gay America's moral decline or whatever,

643
00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:30,880
Speaker 1: like they it would felt like shut up, like they

644
00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:33,759
Speaker 1: really treated it like it was not see propaganda. I

645
00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:40,000
Speaker 1: was like, I was like, girls, I'm sure nothing. I'm

646
00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:42,560
Speaker 1: not here to defend the Fire Island TV show. But

647
00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:46,520
Speaker 1: the reasons people were the reasons people were mad about

648
00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:49,239
Speaker 1: the Fire Island TV show was like hor phobia. It

649
00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:52,360
Speaker 1: was like people feeling like this was a flattening of

650
00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:54,879
Speaker 1: like a gay man could be. You know, I feel

651
00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:56,279
Speaker 1: like it was a lot of well, it's like it's

652
00:36:56,320 --> 00:36:59,200
Speaker 1: this feeling of they're going to make us look bad. Yeah,

653
00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:01,960
Speaker 1: I don't know to think about that tie. Did you

654
00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:04,040
Speaker 1: see the Fire Island TV show problem? I want to

655
00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:05,640
Speaker 1: get well, no, I think you're I think you're getting it.

656
00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:10,560
Speaker 1: This weird um like riddle with representation that we've had

657
00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:13,239
Speaker 1: to kind of deal with, especially over the past like

658
00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:17,160
Speaker 1: ten years, as so much of our community has like

659
00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:21,600
Speaker 1: shifted its attention from political goals towards um like I

660
00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:26,800
Speaker 1: guess a pathetic like concerns um that like how what

661
00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:31,359
Speaker 1: does what does representation that makes us happy? Like all

662
00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:34,760
Speaker 1: happy actually look like is that possible? And like is it?

663
00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:38,640
Speaker 1: Is it even that I think crucial in an error

664
00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:41,319
Speaker 1: when you can pull up TikTok and see gaye as

665
00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:43,520
Speaker 1: many gay people as you want, doing as many different

666
00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:46,160
Speaker 1: things and looking as the most specific kind of queer

667
00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:49,560
Speaker 1: people as well, like just every single like person has

668
00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:50,799
Speaker 1: a lane on too. And I don't mean to say

669
00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:54,319
Speaker 1: that representation doesn't matter obviously, I think it's kind of that,

670
00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:57,879
Speaker 1: but I think we still as a culture really put

671
00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:02,400
Speaker 1: a lot of steak in them in mainstream representation, and

672
00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:06,200
Speaker 1: like it's it's about what who is visible to the

673
00:38:06,239 --> 00:38:09,359
Speaker 1: most people and also what kind of resources are they

674
00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:13,080
Speaker 1: getting for that visibility. So like I do think that

675
00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:17,520
Speaker 1: people see more value in like the Billy Eichner rom

676
00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:22,799
Speaker 1: com than like two boys kissing on TikTok, even if

677
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:24,600
Speaker 1: it gets a million views. I think a lot of

678
00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:27,080
Speaker 1: people are usually kind of just mad at the wrong

679
00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:29,400
Speaker 1: things as well. Like I think that with something like

680
00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:33,600
Speaker 1: Fire Island, it's like people for the TV show, I

681
00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:37,440
Speaker 1: mean it's like people are mad that Like what they're

682
00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:39,800
Speaker 1: really mad about is like we have a very limited

683
00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:42,920
Speaker 1: amount of resources for mainstream media still, and like logo

684
00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:46,560
Speaker 1: is like the place that makes gay stuff still and

685
00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:49,239
Speaker 1: so to put all your two for Kelly Rippau, who

686
00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:51,000
Speaker 1: produced the show, to be like, yes, this is the

687
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:52,799
Speaker 1: show that needs attention right now. I think where we

688
00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:55,000
Speaker 1: get anxious around the amount of space it takes up

689
00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:57,880
Speaker 1: or the resources that it gets sometimes. And also I

690
00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:01,640
Speaker 1: think like with that show specific like Fire Island is

691
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:04,560
Speaker 1: like a sacred queer space in a lot of ways,

692
00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:08,799
Speaker 1: and I think it did feel like sort of commoditizing,

693
00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:12,600
Speaker 1: like the the worst part of something that is very

694
00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:15,399
Speaker 1: special to a lot of people for you know, like

695
00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:19,560
Speaker 1: mainstream entertainment. Um. And I know my gripes with Glee

696
00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:24,040
Speaker 1: were definitely internalized homophobia, Like I'm I used to I

697
00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:26,320
Speaker 1: used to write like a column for like my local

698
00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:28,520
Speaker 1: newspaper or whatever, and I remember writing about how much

699
00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:31,400
Speaker 1: I hate Glee, And I'm sure that, like, if I

700
00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:33,640
Speaker 1: were to revisit that column, it was probably riddled with

701
00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:36,680
Speaker 1: internalized homophobia. But I think the crux of what I

702
00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:40,040
Speaker 1: was mad about was a lack of like multiplicity of

703
00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:43,680
Speaker 1: perspective in like queer media at the time, even though

704
00:39:43,719 --> 00:39:47,200
Speaker 1: we weren't really calling things queer yet. Um. But I

705
00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:51,959
Speaker 1: don't know, I feel like that you're you talking about,

706
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:55,520
Speaker 1: Like what what even makes like positive representation which is

707
00:39:55,520 --> 00:39:57,600
Speaker 1: like an artifice, Like that's like not a real thing.

708
00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:02,319
Speaker 1: It is usually like measured by this authenticity factor, like

709
00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:05,560
Speaker 1: people always say that something has to be authentic or whatever,

710
00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:08,560
Speaker 1: but like authentic to who you know what I mean?

711
00:40:09,040 --> 00:40:10,680
Speaker 1: And I think that that's where people get caught up.

712
00:40:10,760 --> 00:40:12,799
Speaker 1: Is like when they look at something like Lee, it's like,

713
00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:14,680
Speaker 1: well that doesn't represent me, and it's like, well, it

714
00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:17,000
Speaker 1: was never meant to really represent you. It's like meant

715
00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:20,560
Speaker 1: to represent right, it was a sad it's it's really stirical,

716
00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:22,680
Speaker 1: like it's really making fun of itself. I don't know.

717
00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:24,880
Speaker 1: Sometimes I do feel like the logical endpoint of like

718
00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:29,040
Speaker 1: our representation discourse is like I don't feel represented until

719
00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:34,799
Speaker 1: I am cast. Actually, we need more representation for me.

720
00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:39,080
Speaker 1: You need to We need more trans people in the

721
00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:41,319
Speaker 1: writer's room, and by that I mean me. I want

722
00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:43,040
Speaker 1: to be in the writer's room on TV shows. I'm

723
00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:46,000
Speaker 1: very bookable. I need more people to read my pilot.

724
00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:48,600
Speaker 1: I have a sample I have a sample stack that

725
00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:51,399
Speaker 1: everyone should be reading. And that is when representation will

726
00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:54,400
Speaker 1: be fixed. We need more queer stories, pleased buy my

727
00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:59,759
Speaker 1: book that I'm writing. But sometimes I am really surprised

728
00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:03,080
Speaker 1: at what people do get excited about representationally, like that

729
00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:06,120
Speaker 1: show am Stoppers, which, like I feel like if that

730
00:41:06,160 --> 00:41:08,239
Speaker 1: had come out ten years ago, we would all be

731
00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:11,880
Speaker 1: passing around a tweet or a Facebook post about like

732
00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:16,799
Speaker 1: here's another white But I think the funny thing had Stoppers. Ever,

733
00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:20,239
Speaker 1: the meme of this was my hard stopper and all

734
00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:23,720
Speaker 1: of the things that like like satirical or otherwise people

735
00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:28,880
Speaker 1: like found representative of them when they like needed it

736
00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:33,000
Speaker 1: during a very formative time. I honestly think all the

737
00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:36,320
Speaker 1: time about that tweet from I hate summarizing tweets on

738
00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:38,080
Speaker 1: the podcast I'm doing something that is a pet peep

739
00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:39,839
Speaker 1: of mind, but there was a tweet that was like,

740
00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:42,359
Speaker 1: kids are so lucky to have little naz these days.

741
00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:44,439
Speaker 1: Back then, all I had was this and it's Kurt

742
00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:49,799
Speaker 1: doing single Ladies on, which is so tea and it.

743
00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:53,520
Speaker 1: But I think that tweet actually really perfectly encapsulates a

744
00:41:53,520 --> 00:41:55,120
Speaker 1: lot of things we're talking about, which is that, like,

745
00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:58,080
Speaker 1: the problem is that the possibility of a little nas

746
00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:00,760
Speaker 1: X really like I mean, I don't know if media

747
00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:03,440
Speaker 1: was like ready for that in the early ats or whatever.

748
00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:06,880
Speaker 1: I mean, maybe that's stupid to say, but like, um,

749
00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:09,359
Speaker 1: now to where we've grown up to and to all

750
00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:11,120
Speaker 1: the different kinds of things that we've seen along the way,

751
00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:14,160
Speaker 1: and also even in the way that Glee became increasingly

752
00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:16,759
Speaker 1: more I don't want to say intersectional, because I feel

753
00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:18,759
Speaker 1: like that is like over intellectualizing it, but like it

754
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:22,200
Speaker 1: just brought in even more kinds of queer and trans

755
00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:24,080
Speaker 1: and black and brown people that you would not have

756
00:42:24,160 --> 00:42:26,719
Speaker 1: imagined on mainstream TV. And that was huge for a

757
00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:28,959
Speaker 1: show that was pretty much the biggest show on TV

758
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:31,799
Speaker 1: for a long time. But you know, it bucks me

759
00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:35,400
Speaker 1: that when we talk about representation, especially que representation, we

760
00:42:35,440 --> 00:42:38,319
Speaker 1: always do this thing where we kind of project our

761
00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:41,719
Speaker 1: own childhood's onto people who are young now, Like we're

762
00:42:41,719 --> 00:42:44,839
Speaker 1: always talking about how we need this kind of representation

763
00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:50,080
Speaker 1: for that twelve year old kid in Ohio who doesn't

764
00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:52,880
Speaker 1: have anyone, and I'm like, I actually don't know what

765
00:42:53,080 --> 00:42:55,719
Speaker 1: that person's life is like. I don't know what a

766
00:42:56,120 --> 00:43:02,280
Speaker 1: what a preteens, like queer preteens like access to different

767
00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:06,520
Speaker 1: kinds of representation, especially on social media platforms, is like,

768
00:43:06,640 --> 00:43:09,080
Speaker 1: and what they actually need. And it kind of bugs

769
00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:12,440
Speaker 1: me that we have we we project knowing what young people.

770
00:43:13,719 --> 00:43:15,959
Speaker 1: But but but the thing is, and we have talked

771
00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:19,520
Speaker 1: about this on the podcast before, like they do want

772
00:43:19,560 --> 00:43:22,560
Speaker 1: it on TV, and they do get they do get

773
00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:27,600
Speaker 1: really mad. Like as someone who has run a social

774
00:43:27,640 --> 00:43:31,759
Speaker 1: media account, as someone who also like, we know what

775
00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:35,240
Speaker 1: the people who we know what people who watch shows

776
00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:39,840
Speaker 1: with queer characters, how much they make their whole personalities

777
00:43:39,880 --> 00:43:42,920
Speaker 1: about those shows and those characters, and when those characters

778
00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:46,280
Speaker 1: are killed off or the shows are canceled, they treat

779
00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:49,080
Speaker 1: that like the end of the world. Because I think

780
00:43:49,120 --> 00:43:52,919
Speaker 1: a lot of young kids, especially um, the Internet has

781
00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:56,560
Speaker 1: given them access to queerness in a way that we

782
00:43:56,600 --> 00:43:59,080
Speaker 1: didn't have when we were growing up, and so rather

783
00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:03,479
Speaker 1: than seeking it out in real life, they're centering their

784
00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:06,560
Speaker 1: whole understanding of queerness around the media they consume, so

785
00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:10,560
Speaker 1: that when it fails them it is even more devastating

786
00:44:10,680 --> 00:44:13,359
Speaker 1: than it was for us, because we just assumed that

787
00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:16,480
Speaker 1: we would never be represented in media, so we didn't

788
00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:19,319
Speaker 1: like put too much weight in it. There's definitely a

789
00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:23,120
Speaker 1: population of like what you're describing, which is like tender

790
00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:25,719
Speaker 1: queers and people that subscribe to them. To us, like

791
00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:28,520
Speaker 1: newsletter but I feel like what Tie is saying, and

792
00:44:28,680 --> 00:44:30,920
Speaker 1: what I kind of agree with, is that a twelve

793
00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:35,200
Speaker 1: year old in Ohio, you know, now has access to

794
00:44:35,239 --> 00:44:38,640
Speaker 1: TikTok or whatever they have. They have access to so

795
00:44:38,680 --> 00:44:41,600
Speaker 1: many different kinds of selves that I think you would

796
00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:45,719
Speaker 1: become disillusioned to pretty quickly. So like the stage we're

797
00:44:45,719 --> 00:44:48,960
Speaker 1: at now, Like I feel very um salty about queer

798
00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:52,520
Speaker 1: representation most of the time, I'm pretty like, you know, disillusioned, disheartened.

799
00:44:52,520 --> 00:44:54,960
Speaker 1: But it's taken a lot of representation up into this

800
00:44:55,040 --> 00:44:57,400
Speaker 1: point to get me to feel the kind of synicism

801
00:44:57,400 --> 00:45:00,239
Speaker 1: I feel now. But when you start, when you're like ten,

802
00:45:00,840 --> 00:45:04,280
Speaker 1: like or twelve or whatever, I feel like they're probably

803
00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:06,959
Speaker 1: cynical before they even leave high school. And I feel

804
00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:08,840
Speaker 1: like a lot of people I have a lot of

805
00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:12,560
Speaker 1: queer people who are in high school right now. I think, um,

806
00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:14,520
Speaker 1: I think a lot of them are tender queers. But

807
00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:17,760
Speaker 1: I also think there's a lot of people that you know, don't,

808
00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:21,000
Speaker 1: will never, don't feel anymore like being queer is any

809
00:45:21,040 --> 00:45:23,560
Speaker 1: kind of novelty, and maybe don't even care about like

810
00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:25,440
Speaker 1: labels in general. I think it's a stute. I mean,

811
00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:27,040
Speaker 1: I will, I will push back against the idea that

812
00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:29,920
Speaker 1: every twelve year old and where you know, wherever, not everything.

813
00:45:30,040 --> 00:45:31,920
Speaker 1: But the thing is that if the kids who are

814
00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:34,320
Speaker 1: like not allowed to have smartphones or something are also

815
00:45:34,760 --> 00:45:37,520
Speaker 1: because there have homophoblic parents are also probably not allowed

816
00:45:37,560 --> 00:45:41,000
Speaker 1: to watch Heart Star Heart Stoppers on Netflix. So you know,

817
00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:43,640
Speaker 1: so that's like a there is something that actually must

818
00:45:43,640 --> 00:45:48,600
Speaker 1: be done for those kids that representation actually isn't sufficient

819
00:45:48,680 --> 00:45:51,239
Speaker 1: for um. But you know, I hear what you're saying that,

820
00:45:51,280 --> 00:45:55,319
Speaker 1: like we do actually know something about about queer kids

821
00:45:55,320 --> 00:45:58,080
Speaker 1: and what they need. What sucks about that is that

822
00:45:58,440 --> 00:46:04,600
Speaker 1: kids have horrible t east between shows that are like

823
00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:10,520
Speaker 1: bad but kids love them, and show and like media

824
00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:16,560
Speaker 1: that is like sophisticated and like interesting and rare, I guess,

825
00:46:16,719 --> 00:46:29,120
Speaker 1: but like kids don't have access to them. I would

826
00:46:29,160 --> 00:46:30,759
Speaker 1: love to talk about the Ryan Murphy of it all.

827
00:46:31,440 --> 00:46:34,400
Speaker 1: I like, I like The Politician. Actually I did too,

828
00:46:34,840 --> 00:46:40,600
Speaker 1: the Politician. I enjoyed it, especially season two with Judith. Yeah,

829
00:46:40,640 --> 00:46:42,040
Speaker 1: I mean, and I feel like I go into it

830
00:46:42,200 --> 00:46:47,120
Speaker 1: knowing that this is a highly stylized showrunner who had who,

831
00:46:47,160 --> 00:46:50,759
Speaker 1: and that I'm going into it expecting that things are

832
00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:55,560
Speaker 1: going to be bizarre and baroque and over the top

833
00:46:55,960 --> 00:46:59,000
Speaker 1: and ridiculous. And so when people are like, can you

834
00:46:59,040 --> 00:47:02,120
Speaker 1: believe this happened Hungly, It's like, yeah, that is Ryan

835
00:47:02,160 --> 00:47:04,520
Speaker 1: Murphy stuck. Can you believe this happened in American horror story?

836
00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:07,319
Speaker 1: Like can you believe this? You know? Can you believe

837
00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:09,399
Speaker 1: this happened on men dot com? It's like asking that

838
00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:19,600
Speaker 1: I really liked feud Um Betty and Joan Um and

839
00:47:20,200 --> 00:47:23,840
Speaker 1: I I liked Ratchet, I thought, I mean, I enjoyed

840
00:47:23,920 --> 00:47:26,439
Speaker 1: watching most of it. I couldn't get through the gore.

841
00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:28,920
Speaker 1: I thought it was way too much gore. But that's

842
00:47:28,920 --> 00:47:31,279
Speaker 1: just a personal taste thing. Um. I also thought that

843
00:47:31,280 --> 00:47:34,600
Speaker 1: Andy Warhol docuseries was was pretty good, even though the

844
00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:39,279
Speaker 1: choice to do the AI voice was very strange. UM,

845
00:47:39,320 --> 00:47:42,360
Speaker 1: but the politician, like I liked it once they weren't

846
00:47:42,360 --> 00:47:45,239
Speaker 1: in high school anymore, and I just didn't understand why

847
00:47:45,320 --> 00:47:47,000
Speaker 1: so much of it had to be set in high school.

848
00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:50,120
Speaker 1: And it's like, just move on from that part of

849
00:47:50,160 --> 00:47:53,680
Speaker 1: your trauma. So you mentioned Popular earlier. I feel like

850
00:47:53,960 --> 00:47:56,560
Speaker 1: he loves like underdogs. He loves like an underdog story.

851
00:47:56,680 --> 00:47:58,440
Speaker 1: And I think that there's a through line from like

852
00:47:58,560 --> 00:48:01,120
Speaker 1: popular to like Niptop or maybe not even Niptuck, maybe

853
00:48:01,160 --> 00:48:05,600
Speaker 1: like Glee, but also like Pose and The Politician, where

854
00:48:05,680 --> 00:48:08,360
Speaker 1: there's this kind of like underdoggy thing that he's always

855
00:48:08,600 --> 00:48:10,920
Speaker 1: kind of pulling through and pulling out of narrative. Well,

856
00:48:10,960 --> 00:48:14,040
Speaker 1: I did see myself representing Niptuck because fam Ka, Jessa

857
00:48:14,160 --> 00:48:18,560
Speaker 1: played a secret a secret trans woman. Doesn't she get murdered?

858
00:48:18,760 --> 00:48:20,799
Speaker 1: You know, she does not get murdered, but she does

859
00:48:21,040 --> 00:48:24,600
Speaker 1: like she has sex with one of the main character sons,

860
00:48:24,640 --> 00:48:27,000
Speaker 1: and it's like this whole thing where they find out

861
00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:30,280
Speaker 1: that she's trans. It's like, oh my god. Doesn't Willem

862
00:48:30,320 --> 00:48:33,520
Speaker 1: also play a trans woman? William was on Niptuck, Yes,

863
00:48:33,800 --> 00:48:37,480
Speaker 1: playing trans Um. I don't know. It's so funny to

864
00:48:37,520 --> 00:48:39,120
Speaker 1: think about the question of like when was the first

865
00:48:39,160 --> 00:48:41,560
Speaker 1: time you saw yourself represented on screen, because like it

866
00:48:41,960 --> 00:48:45,480
Speaker 1: for me, it was. I don't think if I answered

867
00:48:45,520 --> 00:48:47,919
Speaker 1: that question in your real way, it would not be

868
00:48:48,560 --> 00:48:52,440
Speaker 1: like a queer person, a trans person. It would be

869
00:48:52,640 --> 00:48:58,200
Speaker 1: like just someone who more like energetically. No, it would

870
00:48:58,239 --> 00:49:03,040
Speaker 1: be like Queen momby in Return oz Return to oz Um.

871
00:49:03,080 --> 00:49:04,960
Speaker 1: You know, like, it's not gonna be like the first

872
00:49:04,960 --> 00:49:08,560
Speaker 1: time I saw myself represented on screen was like Alexis

873
00:49:08,600 --> 00:49:13,239
Speaker 1: and ugly Betty. You know, I mean, you know, I

874
00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:15,280
Speaker 1: don't know. I don't know that I've ever seen myself

875
00:49:15,280 --> 00:49:17,799
Speaker 1: represented on screen, and I don't know. Maybe that is

876
00:49:17,840 --> 00:49:23,560
Speaker 1: like a very like narcissistic um like presumption about how

877
00:49:23,600 --> 00:49:26,960
Speaker 1: exceptional I am. But I guess I don't look for

878
00:49:27,000 --> 00:49:29,600
Speaker 1: it either. I don't. I don't. I have seen so

879
00:49:29,640 --> 00:49:32,640
Speaker 1: many people and characters on screen that I want to

880
00:49:32,760 --> 00:49:36,279
Speaker 1: be that, I want to have sex with that, and

881
00:49:36,520 --> 00:49:38,759
Speaker 1: those two seem to go hand in hand when you're

882
00:49:38,760 --> 00:49:42,560
Speaker 1: a faggot, I guess, you know, And I think like

883
00:49:42,680 --> 00:49:48,120
Speaker 1: watching Glee, I remember, um, like seeing a character like Blaine,

884
00:49:48,480 --> 00:49:52,360
Speaker 1: and I think internalizing this idea that, oh, I want

885
00:49:52,440 --> 00:49:55,520
Speaker 1: to be like that kind of gay, I want to

886
00:49:55,560 --> 00:50:00,520
Speaker 1: be handsome, talented, heart throbby like I like I. And

887
00:50:00,560 --> 00:50:03,080
Speaker 1: I didn't even necessarily think, oh this is possible because

888
00:50:03,120 --> 00:50:06,279
Speaker 1: blames here, but that like I would kind of I

889
00:50:06,320 --> 00:50:11,680
Speaker 1: think consume characters and queer representation in terms of like, um,

890
00:50:11,760 --> 00:50:13,680
Speaker 1: who can I emulate one day? Who would I want

891
00:50:13,719 --> 00:50:16,080
Speaker 1: to kind of grow up to be? You know, what

892
00:50:16,200 --> 00:50:18,920
Speaker 1: I saw myself represented on screen was Pam and true Blood.

893
00:50:19,320 --> 00:50:25,279
Speaker 1: You succeeded. Yeah, thank you, Pam. Pam is a vampire

894
00:50:25,640 --> 00:50:29,760
Speaker 1: who is just like has the most bone dry, sarcastic,

895
00:50:30,400 --> 00:50:34,600
Speaker 1: dead pan wit is a huge fucking bitch m and

896
00:50:35,080 --> 00:50:38,160
Speaker 1: like people and eats people and it's like evil and

897
00:50:38,280 --> 00:50:42,719
Speaker 1: has like very fierce looks. Um, she's amazing. But the

898
00:50:42,719 --> 00:50:45,560
Speaker 1: flip side of the whole like queer people I want

899
00:50:45,600 --> 00:50:48,480
Speaker 1: to be thing is that I also would resent those

900
00:50:48,520 --> 00:50:51,000
Speaker 1: same characters because I wasn't there, and so that I

901
00:50:51,000 --> 00:50:54,080
Speaker 1: feel like happens more often than seeing myself on screen,

902
00:50:54,400 --> 00:50:56,839
Speaker 1: is I see people that make me feel bad about

903
00:50:56,880 --> 00:51:01,160
Speaker 1: myself because I don't look like them or I don't

904
00:51:01,360 --> 00:51:04,480
Speaker 1: have you know, Like it's weird how we go back

905
00:51:04,520 --> 00:51:06,440
Speaker 1: and forth between like I hate you and I want

906
00:51:06,440 --> 00:51:08,319
Speaker 1: to be you, and I feel like people do feel

907
00:51:08,360 --> 00:51:11,480
Speaker 1: that way about porn a lot. I feel that about

908
00:51:11,480 --> 00:51:13,760
Speaker 1: people I want to back with. Definitely, it's the perils

909
00:51:13,800 --> 00:51:17,000
Speaker 1: I think of like queer representation and success is because

910
00:51:17,360 --> 00:51:20,000
Speaker 1: like I definitely know this, This is my experience with

911
00:51:20,040 --> 00:51:23,239
Speaker 1: seeing other trans women, especially like a lot of us

912
00:51:23,239 --> 00:51:25,840
Speaker 1: are like just measuring ourselves up to each other and

913
00:51:25,920 --> 00:51:29,839
Speaker 1: like why why does she like look better than me?

914
00:51:30,040 --> 00:51:32,640
Speaker 1: Or like she's had more surgery than I have, or

915
00:51:32,680 --> 00:51:36,239
Speaker 1: like she's getting attention that I'm not getting, like and

916
00:51:36,280 --> 00:51:38,799
Speaker 1: I think that is very much a queer experience because

917
00:51:38,840 --> 00:51:42,080
Speaker 1: like they're so there's so much less for us to

918
00:51:42,200 --> 00:51:45,360
Speaker 1: get that we are jealous of anyone who gets a

919
00:51:45,400 --> 00:51:48,239
Speaker 1: little bit more than us. I think that's maybe a

920
00:51:48,239 --> 00:51:51,200
Speaker 1: big part of where people feel embarrassed by Glee is

921
00:51:51,239 --> 00:51:53,560
Speaker 1: that Glee, for all its satire, is also a wish

922
00:51:53,600 --> 00:51:56,920
Speaker 1: fulfillment fantasy. It's like it is a high school experience

923
00:51:57,000 --> 00:52:02,560
Speaker 1: that is like very fairy tale in the sense that

924
00:52:02,600 --> 00:52:05,440
Speaker 1: you have this community of kids who come from all

925
00:52:05,480 --> 00:52:09,600
Speaker 1: different parts of the school who are inspired to work

926
00:52:09,680 --> 00:52:13,720
Speaker 1: together and sing really well and get to sing whenever

927
00:52:13,760 --> 00:52:17,120
Speaker 1: they want and get to express themselves whenever they want

928
00:52:17,120 --> 00:52:20,360
Speaker 1: and however they want um and even all fall in

929
00:52:20,400 --> 00:52:22,840
Speaker 1: love with each other in various combinations in the process,

930
00:52:23,280 --> 00:52:26,120
Speaker 1: even though they're you know, getting slushies thrown at them.

931
00:52:26,160 --> 00:52:28,959
Speaker 1: There is this this fantasy come true that's taking place

932
00:52:28,960 --> 00:52:31,960
Speaker 1: in the show that I think can produce this knee

933
00:52:32,000 --> 00:52:37,600
Speaker 1: jerk um resentment that maybe you were feeling for him. Yeah,

934
00:52:37,640 --> 00:52:40,040
Speaker 1: And I think all of that is exacerbated by like

935
00:52:40,120 --> 00:52:42,680
Speaker 1: scarcity mentality especially I mean at the time, it's like

936
00:52:42,719 --> 00:52:44,520
Speaker 1: there was a dearth of cond of like you know,

937
00:52:44,640 --> 00:52:48,040
Speaker 1: queer content in general, and so it's just like, really

938
00:52:48,160 --> 00:52:50,239
Speaker 1: this thing, which wasn't my reaction the whole way through.

939
00:52:50,239 --> 00:52:52,560
Speaker 1: I remember loving like the first half of that season,

940
00:52:52,600 --> 00:52:56,640
Speaker 1: but now that we you know, scarcity obviously still like multiplicity,

941
00:52:56,680 --> 00:52:59,840
Speaker 1: intersectionality still needed, but like less of a problem now

942
00:53:00,239 --> 00:53:02,040
Speaker 1: I think it'll be I'll be curious to know how

943
00:53:02,040 --> 00:53:07,040
Speaker 1: like the representation conversation evolves. But I mean, honestly should

944
00:53:07,080 --> 00:53:10,560
Speaker 1: have a reboot. And I'm just but it was innovative

945
00:53:10,600 --> 00:53:13,560
Speaker 1: at the time for Kurt to be a character who

946
00:53:13,880 --> 00:53:17,160
Speaker 1: succeeds and gets his needs met because Ryan Murphy was

947
00:53:17,200 --> 00:53:20,560
Speaker 1: intervening on a whole period of queer representation where quick

948
00:53:20,600 --> 00:53:23,719
Speaker 1: characters were very tragic, with really the only exception being

949
00:53:23,719 --> 00:53:26,719
Speaker 1: Will and Grace, and even then, um, there were there

950
00:53:26,760 --> 00:53:30,400
Speaker 1: were other problems, and everyone hated Will and Grace for

951
00:53:30,440 --> 00:53:33,279
Speaker 1: not being tragic because it emerged right now. It was

952
00:53:33,320 --> 00:53:35,759
Speaker 1: such a huge hit. Well that too, Yeah it was.

953
00:53:35,880 --> 00:53:37,880
Speaker 1: It was a massive hit. But like sent like the

954
00:53:38,320 --> 00:53:41,719
Speaker 1: critics at the time, we're like, this show has is

955
00:53:41,760 --> 00:53:44,880
Speaker 1: like a um to yuppie and then aesthetizing of like

956
00:53:44,960 --> 00:53:48,160
Speaker 1: what queerness is, and and it came right after the

957
00:53:48,239 --> 00:53:51,200
Speaker 1: AIDS like kind of the in the wake of what

958
00:53:51,239 --> 00:53:53,480
Speaker 1: was the worst of the AIDS crisis, and so a

959
00:53:53,480 --> 00:53:57,520
Speaker 1: lot of activists were really still trying to keep people alive.

960
00:53:57,680 --> 00:54:00,000
Speaker 1: And so for Will and Grace to have the audacity

961
00:54:00,160 --> 00:54:02,920
Speaker 1: to be joyful, I think a lot of like, you know,

962
00:54:03,080 --> 00:54:05,000
Speaker 1: people you know that feel type of way about that

963
00:54:05,320 --> 00:54:08,839
Speaker 1: are going to be extremely mad. But I feel like,

964
00:54:09,080 --> 00:54:13,479
Speaker 1: um that that show very specifically was like we're not

965
00:54:13,560 --> 00:54:15,279
Speaker 1: going to talk about AIDS, you know what I mean,

966
00:54:15,320 --> 00:54:18,320
Speaker 1: Like they came into it with that as a partial

967
00:54:18,400 --> 00:54:20,640
Speaker 1: mission for the show. So of course people are going

968
00:54:20,719 --> 00:54:23,160
Speaker 1: to be, you know, mad that it's not representing or

969
00:54:23,200 --> 00:54:24,880
Speaker 1: not like kind of representing the thing that was important

970
00:54:24,880 --> 00:54:28,920
Speaker 1: in the time. Um. Tie, if you had to perform

971
00:54:28,960 --> 00:54:33,080
Speaker 1: a song on Glee, your Glee Cast version, what would

972
00:54:33,120 --> 00:54:35,280
Speaker 1: it be? Oh my god, I've thought about this so

973
00:54:35,320 --> 00:54:39,279
Speaker 1: many times. I think mine would be, um I write,

974
00:54:39,320 --> 00:54:41,839
Speaker 1: since not tragedies by panic of the disco, that's good?

975
00:54:42,840 --> 00:54:46,520
Speaker 1: Has that happened on Glee? They did? I'm gonna google

976
00:54:46,600 --> 00:54:49,680
Speaker 1: right now. Mine would be probably like running up that hill.

977
00:54:49,760 --> 00:54:54,000
Speaker 1: Glee Cast version. What would that even sound like? I mean,

978
00:54:54,000 --> 00:54:57,600
Speaker 1: they basically did that at post because like Running Up

979
00:54:57,640 --> 00:54:59,640
Speaker 1: the Hill was like a motif for the first season.

980
00:54:59,719 --> 00:55:02,600
Speaker 1: But it's not like someone was doing a karaoke cover

981
00:55:02,680 --> 00:55:05,000
Speaker 1: of it. No, but that did not stop Ryan Murphy

982
00:55:05,040 --> 00:55:07,719
Speaker 1: from making characters, you know, break out into the song

983
00:55:07,760 --> 00:55:12,759
Speaker 1: at any moment on post post Nightmare. I would have

984
00:55:12,800 --> 00:55:14,920
Speaker 1: to do I hate this part by the Pussycat Dolls.

985
00:55:17,920 --> 00:55:20,040
Speaker 1: That's so good. Did you do it over last show

986
00:55:20,080 --> 00:55:22,160
Speaker 1: as well? Well? Yeah, the well in the whole Glee

987
00:55:22,200 --> 00:55:25,200
Speaker 1: Club would also be the Pussycat Dolls and we would

988
00:55:25,200 --> 00:55:27,040
Speaker 1: be on the stage, but the stage would have water

989
00:55:27,160 --> 00:55:29,319
Speaker 1: on it. Who who would be in the number with you?

990
00:55:29,320 --> 00:55:30,880
Speaker 1: Would it be the whole club or would you have

991
00:55:31,000 --> 00:55:33,520
Speaker 1: a selection of backup girls? It would be the It

992
00:55:33,520 --> 00:55:36,040
Speaker 1: would be the whole club, right because I mean the

993
00:55:36,080 --> 00:55:40,360
Speaker 1: pussy Got Dolls is like seven people, right, Like, I

994
00:55:40,400 --> 00:55:43,040
Speaker 1: guess it would be in the It would definitely be

995
00:55:43,080 --> 00:55:45,440
Speaker 1: like at regionals or something. No, it would have been

996
00:55:45,480 --> 00:55:47,360
Speaker 1: inspired by by some story. I mean, I guess it

997
00:55:47,360 --> 00:55:51,279
Speaker 1: could be both, Like would what's like what's the costume situation? Like,

998
00:55:51,280 --> 00:55:57,480
Speaker 1: what are you wearing very very scantily clad vinyl probably

999
00:55:57,800 --> 00:56:01,880
Speaker 1: or like it's still school appropriate, not well appropriate, I mean,

1000
00:56:02,760 --> 00:56:05,840
Speaker 1: was ever school appropriate? Yeah, we need to Euphoria Glee

1001
00:56:05,880 --> 00:56:09,400
Speaker 1: crossover episode is what we need. I mean honestly that

1002
00:56:09,520 --> 00:56:11,840
Speaker 1: the Rose hates somebody talking about you before you, but honestly,

1003
00:56:11,840 --> 00:56:14,520
Speaker 1: the play within a play in Euphoria was kind of gleey. Well,

1004
00:56:14,560 --> 00:56:17,560
Speaker 1: Euphoria is kind of a musical too. It's just a

1005
00:56:17,640 --> 00:56:22,239
Speaker 1: jukebox musical where everyone lip sings instead of singing songs. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

1006
00:56:22,239 --> 00:56:24,560
Speaker 1: it has its most Season two was just like a

1007
00:56:24,680 --> 00:56:27,720
Speaker 1: lip sync every episode. I'm so glad I didn't watch

1008
00:56:27,719 --> 00:56:31,160
Speaker 1: season two. You would, you would, you would love it

1009
00:56:31,239 --> 00:56:34,239
Speaker 1: was awful. That doesn't matter. Would you ever do a

1010
00:56:34,280 --> 00:56:36,520
Speaker 1: porn in which you had to sing? Oh? We should

1011
00:56:36,560 --> 00:56:39,640
Speaker 1: do a porn We should do a porn parody of Glee.

1012
00:56:40,280 --> 00:56:42,600
Speaker 1: I want to that has to exist. I'm gonna I'm

1013
00:56:42,600 --> 00:56:46,560
Speaker 1: gonna check right now and there there's definitely enough fan

1014
00:56:46,640 --> 00:56:53,120
Speaker 1: fiction porn of curtain Blaine, Right, that's right, there seems

1015
00:56:53,160 --> 00:56:57,839
Speaker 1: to be. I can't really find anything. It doesn't look

1016
00:56:57,840 --> 00:56:59,560
Speaker 1: like I should not be using the I heart WiFi

1017
00:56:59,640 --> 00:57:04,759
Speaker 1: to do I'll pitch it. Yeah, you should. You should

1018
00:57:04,760 --> 00:57:07,040
Speaker 1: write the script, Rose, who will you play in the

1019
00:57:07,080 --> 00:57:10,960
Speaker 1: Glee parody porn? Um, I'll be an executive producer. Okay,

1020
00:57:11,480 --> 00:57:19,400
Speaker 1: then I'll be I'll be Shoe Shoe something that I know.

1021
00:57:19,720 --> 00:57:22,360
Speaker 1: I'll actually I'll be I'll be Jane Lynch. I do

1022
00:57:22,480 --> 00:57:25,480
Speaker 1: feel like I have Leah Michelle energy, like I do

1023
00:57:25,680 --> 00:57:30,280
Speaker 1: try really hard, you know, like I related to that

1024
00:57:30,640 --> 00:57:34,160
Speaker 1: element of like her character and also real life personality

1025
00:57:34,400 --> 00:57:37,040
Speaker 1: was that like she against all odds, would try her,

1026
00:57:37,280 --> 00:57:41,200
Speaker 1: made her, made her what she wanted very clear. So

1027
00:57:41,680 --> 00:57:45,680
Speaker 1: tire you, Kurt in the porn parody of Glee? No,

1028
00:57:45,920 --> 00:57:48,840
Speaker 1: I mean in the interest of getting more scenes? Yes?

1029
00:57:50,920 --> 00:57:53,040
Speaker 1: Or are you I kind of think No, I think

1030
00:57:53,120 --> 00:58:04,520
Speaker 1: you're Rachel and Rachel yea, yeah, you're Rachel. What do

1031
00:58:04,600 --> 00:58:07,080
Speaker 1: y'all want to see us discussed next? Because honestly, we

1032
00:58:07,200 --> 00:58:11,240
Speaker 1: have no idea. We are really running load. It could

1033
00:58:11,280 --> 00:58:15,920
Speaker 1: be a book, a movie, a cultural phenomenon, a moment

1034
00:58:15,920 --> 00:58:19,120
Speaker 1: of celebrity, something that was just very specifically interesting to

1035
00:58:19,200 --> 00:58:22,240
Speaker 1: you as a baby queer or you know, siss Hett.

1036
00:58:22,360 --> 00:58:24,720
Speaker 1: If you are out there, um, you can call us

1037
00:58:24,720 --> 00:58:27,040
Speaker 1: to confess at three to three penance. That's three to

1038
00:58:27,240 --> 00:58:29,840
Speaker 1: three seven three six two six to three, but you

1039
00:58:29,840 --> 00:58:33,240
Speaker 1: can also leave suggestions as a review on Apple podcast,

1040
00:58:33,440 --> 00:58:36,400
Speaker 1: as an Instagram story just like anyway you want to

1041
00:58:36,400 --> 00:58:39,640
Speaker 1: reach us. You know there are middling degrees of success,

1042
00:58:39,880 --> 00:58:43,320
Speaker 1: and also tag our burner Instagram account at Like a

1043
00:58:43,400 --> 00:58:46,360
Speaker 1: Virgin fore which is probably the best way to get

1044
00:58:46,400 --> 00:58:48,480
Speaker 1: to us. Yes, we do check the d M. We

1045
00:58:48,560 --> 00:58:51,240
Speaker 1: do not always respond to them. Yeah, yeah, I don't

1046
00:58:51,240 --> 00:58:53,080
Speaker 1: know if we're Yeah, I don't know if we're all tiny,

1047
00:58:53,120 --> 00:58:56,080
Speaker 1: but we will see. Um. I'm your co host fran Toronto.

1048
00:58:56,240 --> 00:58:58,280
Speaker 1: You can find me at Frans squish code wherever you

1049
00:58:58,320 --> 00:59:00,920
Speaker 1: want social I'm ros dum you. You can find me

1050
00:59:00,960 --> 00:59:06,400
Speaker 1: at Rose Damn you on Instagram, TikTok, Twitter, LinkedIn, LinkedIn

1051
00:59:06,560 --> 00:59:09,960
Speaker 1: farmers only, farmers only. Um, what was that? What's the

1052
00:59:10,000 --> 00:59:12,880
Speaker 1: Jewish dating app called j j Jada. I'm not on

1053
00:59:12,960 --> 00:59:16,680
Speaker 1: jaded Unfortunately. You can subscribe to Like a Virgin anywhere

1054
00:59:16,720 --> 00:59:20,320
Speaker 1: you listen and uh leave us a review obviously. Like

1055
00:59:20,400 --> 00:59:22,600
Speaker 1: a Virgin is an i Heeart radio production. Our producer

1056
00:59:22,680 --> 00:59:26,560
Speaker 1: is pb Inter the Winter with support from Lindsay Hoffman,

1057
00:59:26,640 --> 00:59:29,800
Speaker 1: Julian Weller, Jess Crane, Chitch and Nikki E Tour until

1058
00:59:29,840 --> 00:59:35,680
Speaker 1: next week. See you later virgins don't Stop Believe and

1059
00:59:36,160 --> 00:59:38,000
Speaker 1: I was about to seeing Seasons of Love, but Don't

1060
00:59:38,040 --> 00:59:40,680
Speaker 1: Stop Believing as much better. Well, that's like the definitive

1061
00:59:40,680 --> 00:59:42,840
Speaker 1: Glee song. Yeah, is it really? Yeah, it's the song

1062
00:59:42,880 --> 00:59:47,120
Speaker 1: you did in the first episode, Don't Stop Believe in