WEBVTT - No Passion, No Problem: How to Find a Job You Like 0:00:00.600 --> 0:00:04.200 From executive search to talent strategy, leadership development, rewards and 0:00:04.200 --> 0:00:06.880 succession planning. Corn Fairy can help you realize the full 0:00:06.880 --> 0:00:09.879 potential of your people so you can take your business 0:00:09.920 --> 0:00:12.520 where it wants to go up. Learn more at corn 0:00:12.560 --> 0:00:16.160 Ferry dot com slash up. Every year, there's a raft 0:00:16.200 --> 0:00:18.320 of stories that come out, and you've all seen them 0:00:18.360 --> 0:00:21.639 talking about how Americans change careers, and almost all of 0:00:21.680 --> 0:00:25.759 these stories cite the exact same statistic. Americans change careers 0:00:25.840 --> 0:00:31.080 roughly seven times in their lifetime. Seven That seems incredibly high. 0:00:31.480 --> 0:00:34.400 It would be very difficult just to change careers even once, 0:00:34.479 --> 0:00:37.120 considering that leaving your career and starting a new one 0:00:37.159 --> 0:00:40.519 would be ridiculously daunting, But what if you did it? 0:00:41.159 --> 0:00:54.720 You're listening to game Plan. I'm Sam Robert. I'm a 0:00:54.720 --> 0:00:58.440 writer at Bloomberg Business Week Magazine. And I'm Rebecca Greenfield, 0:00:58.480 --> 0:01:01.400 I'm a reporter at Bloomberg rag Fair workplace Culture, and 0:01:01.440 --> 0:01:03.760 today we're talking about something that neither of us have 0:01:04.000 --> 0:01:08.320 ever done, which has changed careers. We've both maintained long 0:01:08.480 --> 0:01:12.800 and prosperous ten years in the world of media and journalism. Yes, 0:01:12.800 --> 0:01:15.680 I have worked in digital media since straight out of college, 0:01:16.000 --> 0:01:20.800 and the idea of changing careers now six long, forever 0:01:20.959 --> 0:01:25.039 years and does seem impossible, And celebrating my twentieth year 0:01:25.080 --> 0:01:28.240 of employment would also seem ridiculous for me to do 0:01:28.319 --> 0:01:32.720 as well, particularly since I have mortgage and children and 0:01:33.200 --> 0:01:36.800 a car payment. Yes, but we're the outliers. Presumably there 0:01:36.800 --> 0:01:39.840 are many people out there who would like to change careers. 0:01:39.959 --> 0:01:41.720 You know, just talk to your friends. I'm sure there's 0:01:41.760 --> 0:01:44.160 some fraction of them that hate their jobs. Yeah, are 0:01:44.240 --> 0:01:46.680 like I can relate to your kind of like put 0:01:46.680 --> 0:01:48.640 yourself on this track. You're straight out of college, you're 0:01:48.640 --> 0:01:50.720 stressed about getting a job in the first place, and 0:01:50.760 --> 0:01:54.680 then you turn around five ten years later and you're like, oh, 0:01:54.840 --> 0:01:57.280 I don't really like this, or I don't like even 0:01:57.320 --> 0:01:59.320 like part of my job. Even right now. I feel 0:01:59.320 --> 0:02:01.880 like sometimes I'm kind of figure out what are the 0:02:01.920 --> 0:02:04.600 things that I like best about my job and try 0:02:04.680 --> 0:02:08.040 to pivot myself in that direction, because you could just 0:02:08.120 --> 0:02:09.760 kind of stand this track forever and then you end 0:02:09.840 --> 0:02:12.480 up kind of unhappy, right and yet you've invested time, 0:02:12.560 --> 0:02:15.760 you've invested energy, maybe you've even invested money when it 0:02:15.800 --> 0:02:18.520 comes to like graduate education or things like that. So 0:02:18.639 --> 0:02:21.160 there are a lot of forces of inertia that will 0:02:21.200 --> 0:02:24.280 try to keep you where you are. But I think 0:02:24.320 --> 0:02:28.320 one of the biggest problems is actually a very popular sentiment, 0:02:28.520 --> 0:02:32.480 which has to do with the notion of following your dreams. Yeah, 0:02:32.480 --> 0:02:34.399 you got to find that passion. You got to find 0:02:34.440 --> 0:02:37.919 that one thing, that perfect thing that's going to lead 0:02:37.960 --> 0:02:41.680 you to some professional ecstasy of some type. Yeah, it 0:02:41.720 --> 0:02:44.840 sounds so nice, right, If you just find your passion, 0:02:44.880 --> 0:02:47.440 then you'll totally succeed at what you do and be 0:02:47.520 --> 0:02:49.720 really happy for the rest of your life and rich. Yeah, 0:02:49.919 --> 0:02:52.360 that's not hard to do. The states aren't that high. 0:02:52.720 --> 0:02:56.520 It's it's so unreasonable. It just it's assumes that everybody 0:02:56.560 --> 0:02:59.440 has a singular passion and that you know, all you 0:02:59.520 --> 0:03:02.560 have to do is summon up the will to pursue it. 0:03:02.560 --> 0:03:05.200 It ignores all of the practical aspects of life and 0:03:05.240 --> 0:03:07.480 the fact that for many people there is no one 0:03:07.520 --> 0:03:09.160 thing they want to do. They might like a few 0:03:09.200 --> 0:03:11.799 things to do. Yeah, So then I guess it becomes 0:03:11.840 --> 0:03:15.239 even scarier because it's like, if I don't have this passion, 0:03:15.440 --> 0:03:17.600 but I know that I'm not exactly happy in what 0:03:17.639 --> 0:03:21.679 I'm doing, then how would I make any sort of change, right, 0:03:21.880 --> 0:03:23.480 you know, you're kind of damned if you do, damned 0:03:23.480 --> 0:03:26.600 if you don't. And so it just sets everybody up 0:03:26.639 --> 0:03:28.399 to fail. And I think what we have to do 0:03:29.000 --> 0:03:32.320 to some degree is kind of lower our standards just 0:03:32.360 --> 0:03:34.400 a little bit, just you know, enough to kind of say, 0:03:34.440 --> 0:03:37.920 all right, I'm not looking for the perfect thing, I'm 0:03:37.960 --> 0:03:40.400 looking for something that is better than what I have. 0:03:40.840 --> 0:03:45.320 I still think that that sounds great, but that it's 0:03:45.320 --> 0:03:49.200 still really scary even with lowered standards to be like, well, 0:03:49.200 --> 0:03:51.520 where do I even start, right? How do I find 0:03:51.560 --> 0:03:55.480 those like less than passions? Many passions passionates, yeah, passionates 0:03:55.600 --> 0:03:59.240 to kind of figure out where to steer my career 0:03:59.440 --> 0:04:02.400 or my life in a happier in direction. As we've said, 0:04:02.400 --> 0:04:05.760 we have absolutely no experience. I have no idea, which 0:04:05.760 --> 0:04:08.880 is why we're bringing someone in now who can speak 0:04:08.920 --> 0:04:17.360 to this. Francesca Hogi was on a perfectly successful career 0:04:17.360 --> 0:04:19.760 track after attending law school. She was working at a 0:04:19.839 --> 0:04:22.760 high powered law firm, but eventually fell out of love 0:04:22.800 --> 0:04:24.919 with the profession, and like a lot of us, she 0:04:25.040 --> 0:04:28.400 really had no idea what she wanted to do next. Ultimately, 0:04:28.720 --> 0:04:31.920 she wound up being a dating coach and matchmaker, a 0:04:32.040 --> 0:04:33.560 job that if you had told her about it a 0:04:33.600 --> 0:04:36.920 couple of years ago, she wouldn't even believe existed. We're 0:04:36.960 --> 0:04:40.080 here with her today to learn about her unlikely roadmap 0:04:40.120 --> 0:04:49.800 to career satisfaction. Francisca, thanks for joining us. Thank you 0:04:49.839 --> 0:04:52.360 for having you. Sam. So, I think before we get 0:04:52.400 --> 0:04:54.400 to how you got to where you are today, it 0:04:54.440 --> 0:04:56.880 might be good to know how you decided to be 0:04:56.960 --> 0:04:58.880 a lawyer in the first place, since that was your 0:04:58.920 --> 0:05:03.040 first career year after school. So what led you to 0:05:03.040 --> 0:05:06.760 be a lawyer? Was that a dream or stability or what? Yes, 0:05:06.800 --> 0:05:09.520 so being a lawyer was not a dream like many 0:05:09.560 --> 0:05:11.880 people who go to law school. I went to law 0:05:11.920 --> 0:05:14.279 school because people told me you can do anything with 0:05:14.279 --> 0:05:17.520 a law degree. It's a great degree to have, and 0:05:17.800 --> 0:05:20.480 that's true. However, I don't recommend going to law school 0:05:20.560 --> 0:05:22.920 unless you actually went to practice law, which I really 0:05:22.960 --> 0:05:26.039 didn't want to do. But I went to law school 0:05:26.080 --> 0:05:28.520 because it was a practical thing to do. And um, 0:05:28.560 --> 0:05:30.599 I had a lot of people telling me I was 0:05:30.640 --> 0:05:33.599 smart and I should go to grad school. And honestly, 0:05:33.839 --> 0:05:35.760 I'm bad at math and there's no math on the 0:05:35.880 --> 0:05:39.960 l s at so right with a legal education, as 0:05:40.000 --> 0:05:42.880 you said, some people get the law degree actually never 0:05:42.920 --> 0:05:45.880 even take the bar, never practice law. You did, though, 0:05:46.200 --> 0:05:48.680 I did. Yes, why did you decide to kind of 0:05:48.720 --> 0:05:53.200 follow that perhaps rather traditional path. I followed that traditional 0:05:53.200 --> 0:05:55.640 path because it was honestly the easiest one. I had 0:05:55.640 --> 0:05:59.000 a lot of loans. I was very young, and someone 0:05:59.040 --> 0:06:01.400 was going to pay me six figures and I said, okay, 0:06:01.440 --> 0:06:03.039 well I don't know what else to do, so I'll 0:06:03.040 --> 0:06:05.440 do that for a while. So that's how I ended 0:06:05.520 --> 0:06:08.279 up being a corporate lawyer. Long were you doing that for? 0:06:08.680 --> 0:06:11.240 I did that for four years. So I worked at 0:06:11.240 --> 0:06:14.320 a big firm here in New York, and um, it 0:06:14.360 --> 0:06:17.159 actually wasn't terrible. I mean considering I had a really 0:06:17.160 --> 0:06:19.080 good situation at my firm because I had a partner 0:06:19.120 --> 0:06:21.400 who mentored me, so I actually had a lot of support, 0:06:21.880 --> 0:06:25.320 unlike a lot of young associates. However, when I looked 0:06:25.320 --> 0:06:27.520 at when I looked at that partner and the other partners, 0:06:27.520 --> 0:06:29.360 I looked at their lives and their lifestyles, and I 0:06:29.400 --> 0:06:31.479 was like, you know, I don't mind working hard, but 0:06:32.000 --> 0:06:34.120 I don't want their lives like I don't, you know, 0:06:34.279 --> 0:06:37.080 so why would I stay in this career when quote 0:06:37.160 --> 0:06:39.520 unquote success in this career something that I don't want. 0:06:39.920 --> 0:06:41.880 You're getting into something I was just about to ask you, 0:06:41.920 --> 0:06:45.560 which is was there a point during your initial legal 0:06:45.600 --> 0:06:49.120 career where you actually did feel like, Yeah, this is 0:06:49.160 --> 0:06:50.839 the job for me. I'm going to stick with this. 0:06:50.960 --> 0:06:53.240 I'm very happy where I am, or was it always 0:06:53.320 --> 0:06:55.680 a question. I think I'm a person who I've had 0:06:55.720 --> 0:06:57.720 a lot of jobs. You know, I've been working since 0:06:57.720 --> 0:07:00.919 I was twelve years old and I started my babysitting empire. 0:07:01.800 --> 0:07:03.800 I had a real babysitting I made a lot of money. 0:07:03.839 --> 0:07:07.279 It's a babysitter um, and I really haven't stopped since. 0:07:07.800 --> 0:07:10.720 And I think that there are a lot of interesting 0:07:10.760 --> 0:07:13.560 things about being a lawyer. I never felt like, oh, 0:07:13.640 --> 0:07:16.960 I found the thing for me, but there were aspects 0:07:17.000 --> 0:07:19.200 of my job that I did enjoy, and so I 0:07:19.240 --> 0:07:21.880 tried to focus on those things. But I always knew 0:07:21.920 --> 0:07:24.040 that there was something more that I wanted to do 0:07:24.080 --> 0:07:26.120 in life. I just didn't know what it was. I 0:07:26.160 --> 0:07:29.120 think it's interesting because I a lot of people feel 0:07:29.480 --> 0:07:32.760 that way about their jobs, like it's interesting enough, but 0:07:32.920 --> 0:07:34.600 I know I don't want to do it. But then 0:07:34.600 --> 0:07:36.960 most people, I think, just stick with it because of 0:07:37.040 --> 0:07:40.600 inertia and because it's really scary. It is, and it was. 0:07:40.680 --> 0:07:42.640 It was scary to leave my law firm, and I 0:07:42.680 --> 0:07:44.920 had to make a lot of sacrifices and I had 0:07:44.960 --> 0:07:48.880 to change my entire lifestyle, and um, that was not 0:07:49.040 --> 0:07:51.000 something that a lot of people are willing to do. 0:07:51.120 --> 0:07:52.800 And there were a lot of people who are like, really, 0:07:52.960 --> 0:07:56.160 why you're quitting this job to run off and start 0:07:56.160 --> 0:07:57.960 a film production company, and how are you going to 0:07:58.040 --> 0:08:00.080 make money? And how you're going to support yourself? And 0:08:00.800 --> 0:08:02.400 I was just like, I have to figure it out. 0:08:02.440 --> 0:08:05.520 I'll figure it out, because to me, it was not 0:08:05.640 --> 0:08:09.800 the security was not worth sacrificing this desire. I had 0:08:09.800 --> 0:08:12.040 to me to do something else. So I just knew 0:08:12.080 --> 0:08:15.000 I had to try. When you did leave your law firm, 0:08:15.040 --> 0:08:18.560 how did you support yourself? So I left with notice, 0:08:18.680 --> 0:08:20.280 So I didn't, you know, I didn't. It wasn't like 0:08:20.320 --> 0:08:24.680 I came in. Was like I quit, So I I 0:08:24.720 --> 0:08:28.160 saved money. Once I made the decision to leave my firm, 0:08:28.240 --> 0:08:30.920 I moved out of my one bedroom apartment and on 0:08:30.960 --> 0:08:35.440 the Upper West Side and moved back home. And you know, 0:08:35.520 --> 0:08:37.640 so I didn't have rent to pay, and I saved money, 0:08:37.679 --> 0:08:40.760 so I had some cushion. And then once I was 0:08:40.800 --> 0:08:44.120 working in film, I started taking a lot of little 0:08:44.160 --> 0:08:47.080 production jobs to help support myself. So I did wardrobe, 0:08:47.080 --> 0:08:50.600 and I did casting, and I worked on music videos. 0:08:50.640 --> 0:08:53.360 I mean, I had a lot of random production jobs. 0:08:53.400 --> 0:08:55.240 I mean I was really like like when I say 0:08:55.240 --> 0:08:56.600 I've had a lot of jobs, I've had a lot 0:08:56.640 --> 0:09:00.120 of jobs. I've done a lot of different things. I 0:09:00.200 --> 0:09:04.079 did you choose film? Was was that a passion for 0:09:04.120 --> 0:09:07.559 you or or what made you go there? So I've 0:09:07.600 --> 0:09:11.200 always loved film. I actually my undergrad degrees and TV 0:09:11.280 --> 0:09:14.440 and film production, so it wasn't completely out of left field. 0:09:14.720 --> 0:09:18.160 You worked in film for how long? So we started, 0:09:18.240 --> 0:09:20.120 and I say we, I had a I had a 0:09:20.160 --> 0:09:23.520 partner in my production company. We started our production company 0:09:23.520 --> 0:09:27.600 in two thousand four. Um. I actually started producing some 0:09:27.600 --> 0:09:29.600 short films while I was still at my law firm. 0:09:29.679 --> 0:09:32.440 So I started doing a little you know, side hustle. 0:09:33.120 --> 0:09:36.320 UM and then we so we had it for about 0:09:36.360 --> 0:09:38.280 five years before we wrapped it up. And tell me 0:09:38.320 --> 0:09:40.360 a little bit about the wrap up. Why did that 0:09:40.400 --> 0:09:42.640 happen and how did you feel when it did? So? 0:09:43.000 --> 0:09:46.000 The reason that we wrapped up is because it's extremely 0:09:46.040 --> 0:09:50.160 difficult to be an independent producer in Hollywood. And you know, 0:09:50.320 --> 0:09:53.800 I think I went into it very idealistically and feeling like, 0:09:54.240 --> 0:09:56.280 you know, I'm going to make these great movies and 0:09:56.280 --> 0:09:58.480 everyone's going to love them, and as long as you 0:09:58.480 --> 0:10:01.640 work hard, you can make it happy in and it's 0:10:01.679 --> 0:10:04.600 not really the case in that industry. There's so many 0:10:04.640 --> 0:10:07.760 considerations and there are a lot of challenges. UM. One 0:10:07.800 --> 0:10:10.480 thing that was really pivotal is UM two friends of 0:10:10.520 --> 0:10:13.120 mine who were also independent producers, and we were in 0:10:13.120 --> 0:10:16.640 that whole hustle in l A together for years. They 0:10:16.880 --> 0:10:21.840 were like the hardest working, most connected hustlers I knew. 0:10:22.200 --> 0:10:24.240 And they had so many projects that they were setting 0:10:24.320 --> 0:10:26.200 up at studios and making no money, because you make 0:10:26.240 --> 0:10:27.880 no money when you set up a project at a studio. 0:10:27.920 --> 0:10:31.040 It sounds impressive, but you don't actually make anything. Are 0:10:31.080 --> 0:10:34.160 you making very very little? And they were, you know, 0:10:34.200 --> 0:10:36.840 they were really struggling and nothing was getting made. And 0:10:36.840 --> 0:10:38.240 I looked at them and I said, you know what, 0:10:38.280 --> 0:10:42.360 if these two aren't getting their projects made, then I'm 0:10:42.360 --> 0:10:45.080 not going to get mine made. And I love movies 0:10:45.080 --> 0:10:46.800 and I love film but I don't. I don't need 0:10:46.840 --> 0:10:50.520 to make them. So actually because of them looking at them, 0:10:50.960 --> 0:10:53.440 that was why I decided to quit. And side note, 0:10:53.480 --> 0:10:57.319 they won an Oscar this year for Spotlight. I've heard 0:10:57.320 --> 0:11:01.200 of them. Yes, that's very good movie. So it was 0:11:01.280 --> 0:11:03.640 kind of like your heart was in it, but not 0:11:03.800 --> 0:11:07.079 enough to be just working for the love of the work. Yeah, 0:11:07.160 --> 0:11:09.600 And because I you know, I was like, like I said, 0:11:09.600 --> 0:11:12.120 I was doing all these different odd jobs to support 0:11:12.120 --> 0:11:14.280 myself and it was just this constant hustle and I 0:11:14.320 --> 0:11:16.040 just didn't see the light at the end of the tunnel. 0:11:16.559 --> 0:11:19.200 And so I just I knew that I had to 0:11:19.280 --> 0:11:21.760 pivot and find something else to do. And so that's 0:11:21.760 --> 0:11:24.079 how I got sucked back into the law. Yeah, tell 0:11:24.160 --> 0:11:26.400 us about that. How that decision must have been kind 0:11:26.400 --> 0:11:29.120 of hard. It was. I mean, I definitely felt a 0:11:29.160 --> 0:11:31.320 little bit like I had failed. You know, it was 0:11:31.360 --> 0:11:33.800 not easy to say, like to say everyone, hey, I'm 0:11:33.800 --> 0:11:35.720 going to be this big movie producer and then be like, 0:11:35.800 --> 0:11:39.440 actually I'm gonna go back and be a lawyer and 0:11:39.480 --> 0:11:42.160 send at a desk all day. But you know, that 0:11:42.280 --> 0:11:45.240 was challenging. But you know what, we are our own 0:11:45.280 --> 0:11:49.079 worst critics and self compassion is a really important skill, 0:11:49.679 --> 0:11:53.560 and I I just knew that I needed to buy 0:11:53.559 --> 0:11:56.840 myself some time and um, and that's how I kind 0:11:56.840 --> 0:12:00.080 of allowed myself to take some weird deeptours because I 0:12:00.120 --> 0:12:03.120 was like, well, I'm working as a lawyer again, and 0:12:03.240 --> 0:12:04.920 I really don't see myself as a lawyer, and I 0:12:04.920 --> 0:12:07.160 know I want to do something else, but I just 0:12:07.240 --> 0:12:10.199 don't know what that is. And um, that's how I 0:12:10.280 --> 0:12:15.120 ended up on Survivor. I want to say that it's 0:12:15.360 --> 0:12:17.600 encouraging to hear you say that you went back to law, 0:12:17.640 --> 0:12:20.440 because I think one big scary part of leaving your 0:12:20.480 --> 0:12:23.360 first career is this idea that once you're off that track, 0:12:23.400 --> 0:12:25.559 it's impossible to get back on. And I think people 0:12:25.559 --> 0:12:28.840 put so much pressure on themselves about that, and just 0:12:29.120 --> 0:12:32.199 there's so much fear that keeps us stuck because we're like, well, 0:12:32.240 --> 0:12:34.199 if I give this up, then then what then I'll 0:12:34.240 --> 0:12:36.640 never get it back. And it's like, you know, honestly, 0:12:36.679 --> 0:12:39.720 if you're resourceful and you're hard working, and you know 0:12:39.760 --> 0:12:42.559 you're willing to just be honest with yourself and with 0:12:42.600 --> 0:12:44.920 other people and say, yeah, I was doing something else 0:12:44.960 --> 0:12:46.880 for a while, and now I'd like to do this again. 0:12:46.920 --> 0:12:49.440 I mean, it was not as challenging as you would 0:12:49.440 --> 0:12:52.880 think to pivot back into my previous career. Having that 0:12:53.000 --> 0:12:56.760 roadmap can sometimes be very sort of useful in therapeutic even, 0:12:56.800 --> 0:12:58.520 like to your point, if you can't get out of 0:12:58.520 --> 0:13:01.680 the career that you're currently in, it a way, even 0:13:01.720 --> 0:13:04.880 having the ability to plan a way out. It might 0:13:04.920 --> 0:13:07.880 not pay off for a year or two years, but 0:13:08.040 --> 0:13:11.240 knowing that you are progressing and taking some sort of 0:13:11.280 --> 0:13:14.360 agency and action can make you suddenly feel a lot 0:13:14.440 --> 0:13:17.240 better because you know that you're actually doing something. Yes, 0:13:17.320 --> 0:13:19.439 And I think that that's important for people to remember, 0:13:19.520 --> 0:13:22.679 because you know, we do have this conversation around passion 0:13:22.720 --> 0:13:26.440 and following your passion and in our culture, and that 0:13:26.480 --> 0:13:29.040 puts a lot of pressure on people to feel like 0:13:29.240 --> 0:13:32.000 I've got to quit my job, burn that bridge, go 0:13:32.160 --> 0:13:34.480 follow my heart and then I'll be a billionaire. And 0:13:34.520 --> 0:13:37.760 it's like, you know, it doesn't work that way of 0:13:38.160 --> 0:13:40.360 most of the time, and that's okay. And you can 0:13:40.360 --> 0:13:42.480 create a plan and you can buide your time, and 0:13:42.520 --> 0:13:45.120 you can start side projects, you know, like I did 0:13:45.200 --> 0:13:47.920 when I was when I was actually both times I 0:13:47.960 --> 0:13:50.320 transitioned out of law, I started my new career as 0:13:50.360 --> 0:13:53.280 while I was still working as a lawyer. Um, you know, 0:13:53.400 --> 0:13:56.319 so doing that, making a plan and just knowing like, Okay, 0:13:56.360 --> 0:13:59.000 I'm going to have some patience here because this is 0:13:59.040 --> 0:14:02.280 my life and it doesn't have to happen overnight. UM. 0:14:02.400 --> 0:14:05.840 That's really important. Up happens when the power and potential 0:14:05.840 --> 0:14:09.080 of every employee and leader in your workforce is released, 0:14:09.440 --> 0:14:11.840 and corn Fairy can get you there by aligning your 0:14:11.880 --> 0:14:16.200 people to your strategy, attracting, developing, engaging, and rewarding them 0:14:16.240 --> 0:14:19.200 to reach new heights. With corn Ferry, you get a 0:14:19.200 --> 0:14:22.720 partner who truly understands people, leadership and the new landscape 0:14:22.760 --> 0:14:24.920 of work, a partner who knows how to take your 0:14:24.960 --> 0:14:28.680 business up. Learn more at corn Ferry dot com slash up. 0:14:29.760 --> 0:14:32.840 So I want to go back to Survivor um and 0:14:32.920 --> 0:14:36.120 you being on it um. So you're back at your 0:14:36.400 --> 0:14:40.640 back in your lodge job and you're again trying to 0:14:40.680 --> 0:14:43.960 figure out what to do. Yes, so you go on Survivor. 0:14:45.640 --> 0:14:49.280 So right before I went back to the law, I 0:14:49.640 --> 0:14:51.960 are you familiar with the show The Amazing Race? Yeah? 0:14:52.000 --> 0:14:54.040 So I love that show and I love to travel, 0:14:54.120 --> 0:14:55.440 And I was like, I used to watch that show 0:14:55.520 --> 0:14:57.080 and be like, oh my god, I would win this show. 0:14:57.360 --> 0:14:59.240 I had this dream of being on the Amazing Race, 0:14:59.280 --> 0:15:02.000 and so I had applied to be on the Amazing 0:15:02.080 --> 0:15:05.600 Race and my partner and I, um, you know, we 0:15:05.720 --> 0:15:09.000 made it really far through casting, like we got our vaccinations, 0:15:09.080 --> 0:15:11.240 like we got our visas and everything, and then at 0:15:11.240 --> 0:15:14.640 the last minute they cut us and I was totally devastated. Um. 0:15:14.680 --> 0:15:17.520 And then a year later I got a call like, hey, 0:15:17.960 --> 0:15:21.280 I want to come to l A and maybe Beyond Survivor. 0:15:21.360 --> 0:15:25.400 And my original answer was no, because that looks really miserable. 0:15:27.160 --> 0:15:29.840 But then I thought, well, you know what, this opportunity 0:15:29.880 --> 0:15:31.960 is presenting itself for a reason, and you know a 0:15:31.960 --> 0:15:34.840 lot of people would kill for this opportunity, so I 0:15:34.880 --> 0:15:38.360 should do it. And I went into it thinking, you know, 0:15:38.400 --> 0:15:40.760 I know how television works. I know that you know, 0:15:41.400 --> 0:15:43.520 I'm probably not even I can just say yes to 0:15:43.560 --> 0:15:45.880 the possibility because I'm not going to get cast, like 0:15:46.120 --> 0:15:47.800 you know, I don't care enough, like it's not going 0:15:47.840 --> 0:15:50.040 to happen. And then of course it happened, and I 0:15:50.120 --> 0:15:52.960 was like, oh crap, I actually have to go to 0:15:53.120 --> 0:15:57.160 on Survivor. Now, yeah, that does sound really scary to 0:15:57.160 --> 0:16:00.880 be on Survivor sounds scarier than quitting my job. So then, 0:16:01.160 --> 0:16:03.720 how how did you figure out what to do after 0:16:04.240 --> 0:16:07.240 after your second low stent. So after my first season 0:16:07.240 --> 0:16:09.680 of Survivor, went back to my job. My job was 0:16:09.760 --> 0:16:14.080 very understanding about letting me take time, and then I 0:16:14.120 --> 0:16:16.520 got invited to come back for a second season. And 0:16:16.520 --> 0:16:18.240 my first season was a disaster, like I am not 0:16:18.280 --> 0:16:21.440 good at Survivor so and so I thought, Okay, well, 0:16:22.120 --> 0:16:24.880 it can't be any worse the second time, like, let 0:16:24.880 --> 0:16:27.240 me do this again, and I did and it was 0:16:27.280 --> 0:16:29.880 a disaster again. And so after that I was like, Okay, 0:16:29.920 --> 0:16:32.360 now I've gone on Survivor twice, I've had the same 0:16:32.360 --> 0:16:35.840 experience twice, and I'm going back to the same job again, 0:16:36.160 --> 0:16:39.440 like now, like this is it. And one of the 0:16:39.480 --> 0:16:42.040 things that had me really stuck for a long time 0:16:42.280 --> 0:16:45.720 was this whole question about passion. And I felt like 0:16:45.800 --> 0:16:49.600 I'd already pursued a passion by going into film, and 0:16:49.760 --> 0:16:53.280 I didn't know what my passion was. And you know, 0:16:53.320 --> 0:16:55.000 that's one of the reasons why I think this whole 0:16:55.000 --> 0:16:57.680 conversation that we have and our culture around passion is 0:16:57.680 --> 0:17:00.840 so harmful. It's like, if you had one burning passion, 0:17:01.000 --> 0:17:04.200 you wouldn't know it right. And so most people don't 0:17:04.240 --> 0:17:07.159 have one burning passion. And it's one thing like if 0:17:07.240 --> 0:17:09.359 you have a passion but you're suppressing it or you 0:17:09.359 --> 0:17:12.040 don't think it's practical. But for most of us, it's like, 0:17:12.160 --> 0:17:14.040 I don't know. I have lots of things I'm interested in. 0:17:14.080 --> 0:17:16.879 And I definitely spent a long time thinking like maybe 0:17:16.880 --> 0:17:18.600 film was my passion and I blew it and now 0:17:18.680 --> 0:17:20.560 I'm a failure and now I'll never have a job 0:17:20.600 --> 0:17:22.880 that I love and um, you know, I got stuck 0:17:22.920 --> 0:17:25.040 in that thinking for a few years. So the great 0:17:25.040 --> 0:17:27.560 thing about Survivor, like I said, after my second season, 0:17:27.600 --> 0:17:29.520 I was like, Okay, you know what, I don't care. 0:17:29.720 --> 0:17:32.840 I'm going to figure something else out. Um. And that 0:17:32.920 --> 0:17:37.320 was when I discover that matchmaking was a real profession 0:17:37.480 --> 0:17:41.159 that like real people did. Um. And I liked meddling 0:17:41.160 --> 0:17:43.639 in people's love lives and I always had and and 0:17:43.680 --> 0:17:47.240 I actually had a dating advice blog back when I 0:17:47.240 --> 0:17:49.880 was a lawyer, just as a fun side project, which 0:17:50.080 --> 0:17:52.680 you know, at the time I had. They didn't provide 0:17:52.680 --> 0:17:54.520 any clue to me, like, oh, there might be something 0:17:54.520 --> 0:17:56.479 here that you like, you could pursue because you know, 0:17:56.960 --> 0:17:59.080 what would you if you don't know about this industry, Like, 0:17:59.440 --> 0:18:01.320 you know, it's not like I'll just go get a 0:18:01.400 --> 0:18:07.320 job in dating. So, um, when I discovered that matchmaking 0:18:07.400 --> 0:18:08.879 was a real profession, and I said, you know what, 0:18:08.960 --> 0:18:10.560 this is something I think I could do and be 0:18:10.600 --> 0:18:13.200 good at and enjoy doing, and so I went for it. Wait, 0:18:13.240 --> 0:18:15.760 how did you discover that matchmaking was a real profession 0:18:16.320 --> 0:18:20.480 from watching Millionaire Matchmaker? It was in flight magazines where 0:18:20.520 --> 0:18:22.720 the ads in the back of do have those ads? 0:18:22.920 --> 0:18:24.639 And it was no, it was not from either of 0:18:24.680 --> 0:18:29.199 those sources. Um, it was actually very just serendipitously. I 0:18:29.240 --> 0:18:30.960 met a woman, was having a conversation with her at 0:18:30.960 --> 0:18:32.960 a Fourth of July barbecue and she was like, oh, yeah, 0:18:33.040 --> 0:18:36.320 there's this black male matchmaker I follow on Twitter. And 0:18:36.359 --> 0:18:38.280 I was like, there's a black mail matchmaker, Like who 0:18:38.320 --> 0:18:40.760 is he? And his name is Paul Brunson and I 0:18:40.800 --> 0:18:42.199 was like, I want to follow him on Twitter and 0:18:42.240 --> 0:18:44.359 I did. And he has an m b A and 0:18:44.400 --> 0:18:46.560 he had a finance career and he left that to 0:18:46.680 --> 0:18:50.600 go start his matchmaking agency. And I was just like reading, 0:18:50.680 --> 0:18:52.720 you know, his articles and watching his videos and I 0:18:52.760 --> 0:18:55.320 was like, this guy like really has it together, and 0:18:55.440 --> 0:18:58.840 I kind of saw myself in him and basically just 0:18:59.600 --> 0:19:03.680 made him become my friend on Twitter. And and you know, 0:19:03.720 --> 0:19:05.359 at one point he tweeted that he was going to 0:19:05.400 --> 0:19:09.240 be speaking at the Matchmaking Institute's annual conference, and I 0:19:09.320 --> 0:19:12.760 was like, that's a great conference. Yeah, And I was like, 0:19:13.000 --> 0:19:16.720 there's a Matchmaking Institute, sign me up and they have 0:19:16.840 --> 0:19:19.679 a conference, like what you know. It totally blew my 0:19:19.680 --> 0:19:21.000 mind and I was like, and I tweeted, I was 0:19:21.040 --> 0:19:22.520 like I want to go, and he's like you should come, 0:19:22.520 --> 0:19:24.240 and I'm like I will. And I went to that 0:19:24.280 --> 0:19:29.479 conference and it totally changed my life. There really is 0:19:30.560 --> 0:19:34.040 you know, Francesco, what I like about your sort of philosophy, 0:19:34.240 --> 0:19:37.520 it's a it's a practical idealism, and I think that 0:19:37.560 --> 0:19:40.480 it's a voice that should be heard more often than 0:19:40.520 --> 0:19:42.720 the what I think of is the more dominant voice, 0:19:42.720 --> 0:19:45.080 which you've already referred to, which is, you know, you 0:19:45.160 --> 0:19:48.600 gotta follow your dreams, man, you gotta find your your 0:19:48.640 --> 0:19:51.760 one thing. It puts so much weight on that one thing. 0:19:52.560 --> 0:19:56.720 And to your point, I think many people probably would 0:19:56.760 --> 0:20:00.159