1 00:00:02,759 --> 00:00:06,360 Speaker 1: Hi, and welcome back to the Carol Marcowitch Show on iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:06,760 --> 00:00:10,760 Speaker 1: I'm doing a fellowship at Hillsdale College in Michigan this week, 3 00:00:10,840 --> 00:00:14,160 Speaker 1: and I've had the opportunity to interact with some really 4 00:00:14,200 --> 00:00:19,000 Speaker 1: amazing college students. Hillsdale is a small Christian college in 5 00:00:19,120 --> 00:00:23,160 Speaker 1: rural Michigan. I get that these are atypical students. They're 6 00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:26,600 Speaker 1: all dressed better than me, but it's been interesting having 7 00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:29,360 Speaker 1: conversations with them and getting a sense of what younger 8 00:00:29,400 --> 00:00:35,000 Speaker 1: people think. Again, they're atypical, and they're super smart, super driven. 9 00:00:34,840 --> 00:00:35,479 Speaker 2: You could see it. 10 00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:38,760 Speaker 3: But still I do think that they have some representative 11 00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:41,840 Speaker 3: properties of the rest of the country. The kids here 12 00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:45,640 Speaker 3: are really marriage minded, and I love that I've met 13 00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:49,239 Speaker 3: students who are already married or are engaged to be. 14 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:52,760 Speaker 3: To me, it's the absolute right path and one I 15 00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:55,640 Speaker 3: hope my own kids will take. I plan to tell 16 00:00:55,680 --> 00:00:58,920 Speaker 3: them often that they will never be surrounded by as 17 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:01,600 Speaker 3: many eligible people to date as they are in college. 18 00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:05,679 Speaker 3: It's funny to think about how dissuaded most people are 19 00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:08,760 Speaker 3: today from marrying their college sweetheart, and look, it's not 20 00:01:08,920 --> 00:01:12,000 Speaker 3: for everyone. I'm glad I didn't marry anyone. I dated 21 00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:15,200 Speaker 3: before my husband, and that includes anybody I dated in college. 22 00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:19,160 Speaker 3: But the overall idea that there'll be so many options 23 00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:22,080 Speaker 3: open to you after you leave college is sort of 24 00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:25,800 Speaker 3: a lie. We've made it so dating at work doesn't 25 00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:29,240 Speaker 3: really happen anymore. For example, a man asking a woman 26 00:01:29,400 --> 00:01:32,200 Speaker 3: on a date, especially if he's her senior at work, 27 00:01:32,760 --> 00:01:35,920 Speaker 3: could get into real trouble. You can get fired or worse. 28 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:40,440 Speaker 1: I tried to find data on college romances continuing beyond school, 29 00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:43,520 Speaker 1: but I couldn't get anything concrete. I found a few 30 00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:47,560 Speaker 1: things that said that twenty eight percent of married graduates 31 00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:51,120 Speaker 1: attended the same university as their spouse, but only two 32 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:53,560 Speaker 1: percent of all marriages in the United States or between 33 00:01:53,640 --> 00:01:56,800 Speaker 1: two people who met on campus, which is an interesting statistic. 34 00:01:57,280 --> 00:01:59,600 Speaker 1: They didn't get together on campus, but maybe they met 35 00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:02,040 Speaker 1: through you vitual friends that they made in college, or 36 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:04,320 Speaker 1: alumni networks or something similar to that. 37 00:02:04,600 --> 00:02:06,480 Speaker 2: Anyway, you all know what I think. 38 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:10,480 Speaker 1: That Pugh study from a year ago continues to rattle me. 39 00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:13,519 Speaker 1: The one where only twenty one percent of parents care 40 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:16,480 Speaker 1: if their kids get married, continues to be bonkers to me. 41 00:02:16,919 --> 00:02:20,680 Speaker 1: And it really has been so great meeting young people 42 00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:24,760 Speaker 1: who rebuff that, and it's probably because their parents are 43 00:02:24,840 --> 00:02:27,400 Speaker 1: in that twenty one percent who do care if they 44 00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:28,040 Speaker 1: get married. 45 00:02:28,280 --> 00:02:30,120 Speaker 2: I plan to be in that twenty one percent. 46 00:02:30,520 --> 00:02:33,080 Speaker 1: May we all be coming up next an interview with 47 00:02:33,120 --> 00:02:33,840 Speaker 1: Tim Carney. 48 00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:35,200 Speaker 2: Join us after the break. 49 00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:42,320 Speaker 1: Welcome back to the Carol Markowitz Show on iHeartRadio. My 50 00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:46,400 Speaker 1: guest today is Tim Carney. He is a fellow at AEI, 51 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:49,639 Speaker 1: a columnist at The Washington Examiner, author of the new 52 00:02:49,639 --> 00:02:52,720 Speaker 1: book Family Unfriendly, and a father of six. 53 00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:53,000 Speaker 2: Hi. 54 00:02:53,080 --> 00:02:55,120 Speaker 4: Tim, Hey, Carol, thanks for having me. 55 00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:56,639 Speaker 2: So nice to have you on. 56 00:02:56,680 --> 00:02:59,640 Speaker 1: You're actually, as you know, the second Carney brother that 57 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:02,280 Speaker 1: I've had on. So I just need to get two 58 00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:03,160 Speaker 1: more and I have the. 59 00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:05,639 Speaker 4: Whole set, right, you'll have all four of us. Yeah, no, 60 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:08,960 Speaker 4: I listened to that episode. I do not hang out 61 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:11,600 Speaker 4: in Brooklyn bars as much as he used to, but yes, 62 00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:13,360 Speaker 4: he was a good guest to have on. 63 00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:15,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, and he's you know, he was very good at 64 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:17,920 Speaker 1: the hanging out in Brooklyn bars. I actually it was 65 00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:20,200 Speaker 1: Manhattan bars if you want to be talking about it. 66 00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:24,760 Speaker 1: He was his favorite bars from Manhattan. No sisters, right, 67 00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:25,160 Speaker 1: It was. 68 00:03:25,440 --> 00:03:28,200 Speaker 4: Just a four boys in about a five and a 69 00:03:28,200 --> 00:03:30,720 Speaker 4: half year stretch, so it was great. I loved it. 70 00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:32,519 Speaker 4: It was the best best thing my parents could have 71 00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:34,040 Speaker 4: given me was three older brothers. 72 00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:35,000 Speaker 3: That's awesome. 73 00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:38,120 Speaker 1: So a question that I ask all of my guests 74 00:03:38,480 --> 00:03:42,680 Speaker 1: is our biggest societal problem? And you have several books, 75 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:45,840 Speaker 1: so I think I imagine any of our societal problems, 76 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:47,520 Speaker 1: you know you have covered them. 77 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:49,480 Speaker 3: So what would you say is the biggest one? 78 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:54,960 Speaker 4: Well, going backwards, I would say our biggest societal problem 79 00:03:55,040 --> 00:03:58,240 Speaker 4: for two generations has been the collapse of community. That 80 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:00,960 Speaker 4: so many people don't belong to things, that they don't 81 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:04,120 Speaker 4: know their neighbors, that they don't go to church or 82 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:07,800 Speaker 4: synagogue or mosque or that sort of thing. And that 83 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:11,040 Speaker 4: was what I wrote about an alienated America. Going forward, 84 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:13,520 Speaker 4: the biggest consequence of this, and the biggest problem we 85 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:16,880 Speaker 4: have is that people aren't getting married and having kids. 86 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:20,320 Speaker 4: The birth rate has fallen to one point six per 87 00:04:20,440 --> 00:04:24,919 Speaker 4: woman in the United States. Meanwhile, Americans still say the 88 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:28,240 Speaker 4: ideal number of children is two point seven. To have 89 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:32,960 Speaker 4: that massive shortfall in something that important not only creates 90 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:36,720 Speaker 4: its own problems, but I think it reflects deeper problems. 91 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:39,919 Speaker 4: There's something wrong with our culture. We're not supporting people 92 00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:45,440 Speaker 4: creating the families that they want. That absolutely is and 93 00:04:45,680 --> 00:04:47,200 Speaker 4: just now I think the rest of the media is 94 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:50,119 Speaker 4: starting to realize that this is a problem, but it 95 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:53,159 Speaker 4: will be the story of the next generation is the 96 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:55,480 Speaker 4: baby bust and the collapse in family formation. 97 00:04:56,440 --> 00:04:58,360 Speaker 2: So what happened and family unfriendly? 98 00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:00,919 Speaker 1: You talk about, for example, that you know kids in 99 00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:04,320 Speaker 1: the past were not watched every second. What shifted that 100 00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:06,680 Speaker 1: made child rearing so difficult? 101 00:05:07,520 --> 00:05:11,760 Speaker 4: So I think there's an underlying shift here that'll get 102 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:13,560 Speaker 4: to in a second. But you just pointed out one 103 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:17,440 Speaker 4: of this real symptoms, the fact that parents are expected 104 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:20,880 Speaker 4: to helicopter and that they feel this they have this 105 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:23,240 Speaker 4: ambition to make their kids. You know, if you're going 106 00:05:23,279 --> 00:05:26,119 Speaker 4: to play baseball, well you should be the best baseball player. 107 00:05:26,120 --> 00:05:27,760 Speaker 4: You get them a pitching coach, You put them on 108 00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:30,799 Speaker 4: a travel team. You end up in you know, tournaments 109 00:05:30,839 --> 00:05:34,560 Speaker 4: in Delaware every other weekend, rather than rather than me 110 00:05:34,760 --> 00:05:39,880 Speaker 4: riding where if Delaware's far away, no matter where you are, basically, 111 00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:42,320 Speaker 4: even if you're in Philly, Delaware is pretty far away. 112 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:46,080 Speaker 4: If I would ride my bike to the Little League field. 113 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:50,160 Speaker 4: People in our generation Gen X, we were told go 114 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:52,400 Speaker 4: out and come home when the street lights, come on, 115 00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:54,480 Speaker 4: be home by dinner if you want to get fed. 116 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:57,839 Speaker 4: That's not done for a couple of reasons. One and 117 00:05:57,880 --> 00:06:01,320 Speaker 4: so this is how our parenting culture is family unfriendly. 118 00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:05,560 Speaker 4: Parents think and are told, and school districts tell the 119 00:06:05,640 --> 00:06:07,240 Speaker 4: kids and the parents that you have to sort of 120 00:06:07,279 --> 00:06:13,480 Speaker 4: maximize every moment with enrichment aimed at achievement, tutoring, studying, travel, sports, 121 00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:18,080 Speaker 4: and free range parenting is largely frowned upon by the 122 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:22,520 Speaker 4: culture and sometimes outlawed by the child protective services. Where 123 00:06:22,520 --> 00:06:24,640 Speaker 4: I used to live in Montgomery County and Silver Spring, 124 00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:27,280 Speaker 4: there were free range parents who got arrested for letting 125 00:06:27,279 --> 00:06:29,520 Speaker 4: their kids walk to the park because the kids were 126 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:32,640 Speaker 4: only eleven and eight or something like that. And so 127 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:37,160 Speaker 4: that's a parenting culture. But again, underneath it you see 128 00:06:37,400 --> 00:06:40,800 Speaker 4: reflections of how our culture is family unfriendly. When you 129 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:46,560 Speaker 4: look at the fact that you have the expectation that 130 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:49,120 Speaker 4: you can't bring your kids on an airplane. You see 131 00:06:49,160 --> 00:06:50,640 Speaker 4: those stories of like the parents who show up with 132 00:06:50,680 --> 00:06:57,280 Speaker 4: their baby and those little bags. Yeah, no, the exceptional 133 00:06:57,320 --> 00:06:59,320 Speaker 4: thing is a person who hates babies. It's not the 134 00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:02,880 Speaker 4: person who brings baby on an airplane. And so in 135 00:07:02,960 --> 00:07:05,120 Speaker 4: family and friendly. I use Israel as an example of 136 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:08,080 Speaker 4: a family friendly place where they are wealthy and educated 137 00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:10,880 Speaker 4: and they have three babies compared to Europe about one 138 00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:13,560 Speaker 4: and a half and US at one point six. So 139 00:07:14,240 --> 00:07:17,760 Speaker 4: there's a ton going on. But it's family unfriendly parenting culture. 140 00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:21,560 Speaker 4: It's family unfriendly attitude towards children, that your kids are 141 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:25,560 Speaker 4: your own problem. And I think there's deeper spiritual stuff 142 00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:29,320 Speaker 4: under there. But the fundamental thing that changed was once 143 00:07:29,880 --> 00:07:35,559 Speaker 4: becoming a parent became something done intentional after a long 144 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:38,560 Speaker 4: search of is this what I want for my life 145 00:07:38,640 --> 00:07:42,320 Speaker 4: as part of my self written script of my life, 146 00:07:42,440 --> 00:07:44,760 Speaker 4: then it became so much more high stress and it 147 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:48,120 Speaker 4: became your problem because they're your kids, rather than a 148 00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:50,600 Speaker 4: societal undertaking to raise up the next generation. 149 00:07:51,360 --> 00:07:55,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, I've written pieces against the whole candy out goodie 150 00:07:55,680 --> 00:07:58,960 Speaker 1: bags on airplanes because nobody wants to be on a 151 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:01,920 Speaker 1: plane with a baby less than the parents of that baby. 152 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:06,200 Speaker 1: So it's, you know, like it is an extremely stressful thing. 153 00:08:06,240 --> 00:08:07,720 Speaker 1: I was supposed to worry about your. 154 00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:10,240 Speaker 3: Feelings, Now like it's you know, I have my own 155 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:11,040 Speaker 3: problems here. 156 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:15,120 Speaker 1: But yeah, I think the you know, the free range parenting, 157 00:08:15,160 --> 00:08:18,280 Speaker 1: the leonors Ganazi has written about it, and she's, you know, 158 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:22,040 Speaker 1: sort of the founder of that movement. Is really tough 159 00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:25,080 Speaker 1: to achieve because I, you know, when I lived in Brooklyn, 160 00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:28,560 Speaker 1: her my husband's first cousins moved to our block. They 161 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:31,040 Speaker 1: had daughters about the same age as our kids, And 162 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:33,320 Speaker 1: one day I let my six year old walk from 163 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:36,840 Speaker 1: our building to the building like three buildings over, but 164 00:08:36,880 --> 00:08:39,240 Speaker 1: like I could see her from our stoop. It was, 165 00:08:39,280 --> 00:08:42,480 Speaker 1: you know, and a lady walked by, and she didn't 166 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:43,920 Speaker 1: she said something to her, but I didn't hear what 167 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:44,200 Speaker 1: she said. 168 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:45,600 Speaker 3: And then she walked by me and said, you really 169 00:08:45,640 --> 00:08:48,840 Speaker 3: shouldn't let her walk like, you know, five steps away 170 00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:49,120 Speaker 3: from you. 171 00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:52,480 Speaker 2: I don't know that pressure. 172 00:08:52,679 --> 00:08:54,600 Speaker 1: Like for me, I obviously I didn't care, and I 173 00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:58,480 Speaker 1: continue to let her be free rangey, which obviously has 174 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:01,520 Speaker 1: led to her being a responsible, kind of more mature 175 00:09:01,559 --> 00:09:05,080 Speaker 1: teenager now. But how do you have like the societal 176 00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:07,360 Speaker 1: pressure of that, I think really gets to people. You 177 00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:09,120 Speaker 1: don't want to be the bad parent, you don't want 178 00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:11,720 Speaker 1: to be the neglectful parent, so you end up kind 179 00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:14,679 Speaker 1: of hovering on these kids who it's bad for them. 180 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:17,400 Speaker 4: No, it's what do you do? Absolutely, it's absolutely bad 181 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:20,760 Speaker 4: for them. It's There was a great op ed in 182 00:09:20,800 --> 00:09:24,760 Speaker 4: the Journal of Pediatrics in January. I believe that said, 183 00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:28,960 Speaker 4: the epidemic of childhood anxiety is due to their not 184 00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:33,120 Speaker 4: having enough independent play. By independent, we mean no adults 185 00:09:33,160 --> 00:09:35,640 Speaker 4: supervising them and telling them what to do, right, So 186 00:09:35,880 --> 00:09:39,120 Speaker 4: I mean, and parents run in who want to be 187 00:09:39,120 --> 00:09:42,680 Speaker 4: more free range, they run into that obstacle. They also 188 00:09:42,760 --> 00:09:45,280 Speaker 4: run into the obstacle. In my own neighborhood, very nice 189 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:49,080 Speaker 4: neighborhood in northern Virginia. There aren't enough sidewalks anywhere, so 190 00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:52,000 Speaker 4: are older kids twelve and older. They can ride their bikes, 191 00:09:52,040 --> 00:09:55,120 Speaker 4: they can run whatever. My seven year old should be 192 00:09:55,160 --> 00:09:59,120 Speaker 4: able to walk to our elementary school, But the sidewalks, 193 00:09:59,120 --> 00:10:02,840 Speaker 4: the crosswalks, they're built for cars rather than for people. So, 194 00:10:03,440 --> 00:10:05,960 Speaker 4: you know, her older sibling, her older sister used to 195 00:10:05,960 --> 00:10:07,720 Speaker 4: walk her last year. But now our older sister's gone 196 00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:10,320 Speaker 4: on to middle school. And so I mean, frankly, I 197 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:13,520 Speaker 4: love walking my first grader to school. I absolutely love it. 198 00:10:13,679 --> 00:10:16,000 Speaker 4: But it was the cutest thing in the whole neighborhood 199 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:17,680 Speaker 4: when the older sister got to do it. She could 200 00:10:17,679 --> 00:10:21,240 Speaker 4: do it by herself. If just the place was built better, 201 00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:24,680 Speaker 4: and then the fewer parents who do it, the harder 202 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:27,040 Speaker 4: it is to do it. If there's kids running everywhere, 203 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:29,560 Speaker 4: it sort of allows parents to feel a little more 204 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:32,839 Speaker 4: relaxed letting them run. So my antswer I mean, so 205 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:35,880 Speaker 4: we live in a house that unfortunately doesn't have a backyard, 206 00:10:36,040 --> 00:10:37,959 Speaker 4: and I realize the upside of this is when my 207 00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:40,880 Speaker 4: kids are playing, they're playing in the front yard, and 208 00:10:40,920 --> 00:10:43,839 Speaker 4: then other kids, other parents can let the kids out 209 00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:45,760 Speaker 4: and join us for whiffleball, and I step out of 210 00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:49,360 Speaker 4: my front yard and sometimes my kids aren't even there anymore. 211 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:51,560 Speaker 4: The whiffle ball game has been taken over by others. 212 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:54,920 Speaker 4: So just leading by leading by example and being like 213 00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:58,000 Speaker 4: Carol Markowitz and being willing to say to the woman 214 00:10:58,040 --> 00:11:01,360 Speaker 4: who disapproves, actually know, I I think she can walk 215 00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:03,440 Speaker 4: that way, but I really appreciate your concern. Thank you. 216 00:11:05,640 --> 00:11:07,160 Speaker 4: That's the one thing I can think of to change 217 00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:07,800 Speaker 4: your culture. 218 00:11:08,559 --> 00:11:11,120 Speaker 1: So it's funny because I think your idea is like, 219 00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:14,080 Speaker 1: for example, you know, have more sidewalks, make things more 220 00:11:14,120 --> 00:11:16,120 Speaker 1: convenient for kids to kind of be able to play. 221 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:19,480 Speaker 1: I think it's ideologically both the left and the right 222 00:11:19,520 --> 00:11:22,679 Speaker 1: should support it. I don't see what you know what 223 00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:26,280 Speaker 1: would make one side support it over another, And. 224 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:30,920 Speaker 4: Well, but yeah, on that stuff, yes, but there still 225 00:11:30,960 --> 00:11:35,200 Speaker 4: are trade offs, and to some extent, walkability can trigger 226 00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:38,400 Speaker 4: some conservatives when you use that word, because there are 227 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:42,240 Speaker 4: trade offs. I want more sidewalks and that will mean 228 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:45,800 Speaker 4: a narrower street in some places, So Montgomery County, they're 229 00:11:45,840 --> 00:11:47,880 Speaker 4: upset that trees will be chopped down if there are 230 00:11:47,920 --> 00:11:50,800 Speaker 4: sidewalks put on the blocks that kids need. But usually 231 00:11:51,080 --> 00:11:54,760 Speaker 4: there are people who think that slowing down cars is 232 00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:57,160 Speaker 4: some sort of liberal plot, And I'm saying, I just 233 00:11:57,240 --> 00:11:59,040 Speaker 4: want the cars flow enough that my kids can cross 234 00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:01,120 Speaker 4: the street and if they look both ways, there's not 235 00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:03,920 Speaker 4: going to be somebody coming fifty down the road. And 236 00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:09,560 Speaker 4: so there is some conservative resistance on that, and that's 237 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:11,920 Speaker 4: one of the main goals I with family and friendlies 238 00:12:11,920 --> 00:12:15,040 Speaker 4: reach out to conservatives and say, to the title of 239 00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:18,160 Speaker 4: the chapters, if you want fecundity in the sheets, you 240 00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:22,000 Speaker 4: need walkability in the streets. We got to reverse this 241 00:12:22,080 --> 00:12:24,880 Speaker 4: baby buy and make towns be places where kids can 242 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:29,000 Speaker 4: run free and parents can ignore them. Obviously, there are 243 00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:33,240 Speaker 4: lots of problems in this whole picture with the left, 244 00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:39,000 Speaker 4: particularly some sorts of modern feminism are family unfriendly. But 245 00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:42,240 Speaker 4: so I don't think one side bears the blame for 246 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:45,160 Speaker 4: the baby bus. But when people ask me for a 247 00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:50,560 Speaker 4: government to government solution, I say, local governments, sidewalks, playgrounds, 248 00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:55,600 Speaker 4: stop signs, crosswalks, and let kids run around on the field. 249 00:12:55,679 --> 00:12:59,360 Speaker 4: I hate the signs that say permitted use only. I 250 00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:02,079 Speaker 4: tell my if it says permitted use only, it doesn't 251 00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:03,760 Speaker 4: apply to anyone under the age of eighteen. 252 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:06,760 Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely. 253 00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:09,160 Speaker 1: So one of the things we talk about on this 254 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:11,880 Speaker 1: show a lot is making friends and how to do 255 00:13:11,920 --> 00:13:14,520 Speaker 1: that in adulthood, especially kind of with the great migration 256 00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:16,080 Speaker 1: in the last few years, a lot of people have 257 00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:17,719 Speaker 1: moved starting over you guys have. 258 00:13:17,720 --> 00:13:21,880 Speaker 4: Moved, not just across the river in the DC suburbs. 259 00:13:21,960 --> 00:13:26,400 Speaker 1: Yes, So your book Alienated America talked about how people are, 260 00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:29,520 Speaker 1: you know, kind of not making friends and not finding 261 00:13:29,559 --> 00:13:30,600 Speaker 1: these social circles. 262 00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:33,040 Speaker 3: So how do we get people together again? 263 00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:38,880 Speaker 4: Really belonging to other things is the key. Just you know, 264 00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:41,640 Speaker 4: the knocking walking up to somebody and saying will you 265 00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:44,880 Speaker 4: be my friend was awkward in first grade and it 266 00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:47,480 Speaker 4: doesn't really work as an adult. You have to do 267 00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:50,040 Speaker 4: work together with other people, and this is where parenting 268 00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:53,800 Speaker 4: is great. Right If when my brother John lived in Brooklyn, 269 00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:56,199 Speaker 4: you know, most people who made friends in Park Slope, 270 00:13:56,200 --> 00:13:59,520 Speaker 4: it's because you're at the same playground, yeah, with other parents. 271 00:13:59,840 --> 00:14:04,600 Speaker 4: And so for me, our community is built around churches 272 00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:08,559 Speaker 4: and our kids' schools and not just a showing up 273 00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:12,839 Speaker 4: on Sunday, but also you know, volunteering, cleaning up after 274 00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:18,200 Speaker 4: the parish picnic, giving a talk to the students on 275 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:24,120 Speaker 4: coaching JV baseball or whatever it is. Volunteering doing stuff. 276 00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:27,360 Speaker 4: That's what gets you plugged in. And so if you 277 00:14:27,560 --> 00:14:30,960 Speaker 4: only wanted friends and didn't care about the other upsides 278 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:34,280 Speaker 4: of volunteering and coaching and helping, it would be a 279 00:14:34,280 --> 00:14:36,880 Speaker 4: great thing to do. But you have to belong to institutions. 280 00:14:36,880 --> 00:14:39,680 Speaker 4: And this is a problem for millennials and it's definitely 281 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:44,280 Speaker 4: related to the collapse in marriage. Is that belonging is 282 00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:47,960 Speaker 4: a little bit of a sacrifice of your autonomy, right right, Well, 283 00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:49,880 Speaker 4: I don't want to belong to anything. I want to 284 00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:54,680 Speaker 4: interact in a transactional way. At my dry cleaner, I 285 00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:57,160 Speaker 4: give them money and they give and they perform this 286 00:14:57,280 --> 00:14:59,800 Speaker 4: service for me. If you sign up for something and 287 00:14:59,840 --> 00:15:02,920 Speaker 4: you join, you sort of you're giving up a tiny 288 00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:05,760 Speaker 4: bit of your autonomy. That's obviously what we need to 289 00:15:05,760 --> 00:15:09,320 Speaker 4: do to be happy as human beings, but it cuts 290 00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:12,560 Speaker 4: against the sort of the spirit of the age, which 291 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:16,720 Speaker 4: is that we're all free, floating individuals who interact consensually 292 00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:19,520 Speaker 4: but never get stuck to one another. 293 00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:21,680 Speaker 2: We're going to take a quick break and be right 294 00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:23,240 Speaker 2: back on the Carol Marcowitch Show. 295 00:15:26,640 --> 00:15:29,600 Speaker 1: So I think your book Alienated America really leads to 296 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:31,240 Speaker 1: family unfriendly policies. 297 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:32,760 Speaker 2: I'm sure you've thought of this right. 298 00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:35,880 Speaker 1: It's those two things sort of go hand in hand, 299 00:15:36,440 --> 00:15:40,520 Speaker 1: and I think solving one, or working on solving one, 300 00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:44,520 Speaker 1: helps to solve the other, which like, so, how do 301 00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:45,880 Speaker 1: you suggest people start? 302 00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:48,400 Speaker 3: I guess is how do we get over these problems? 303 00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:52,560 Speaker 4: Well, so, we definitely need to change the spirit of 304 00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:55,680 Speaker 4: the age. We have to realize that sort of individualism 305 00:15:55,720 --> 00:16:00,480 Speaker 4: and autonomy, these are great American virtues, and we've gone 306 00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:03,640 Speaker 4: too far in that direction that what we're lacking is 307 00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:07,080 Speaker 4: a sense of community, a sense of belonging, a sense 308 00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:11,000 Speaker 4: that we can be role players within a given institution. 309 00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:15,080 Speaker 4: And so that's the first step of this, and then 310 00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:18,160 Speaker 4: also just simply marriage. I had a young woman, and 311 00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:20,000 Speaker 4: I quote her in Family and Friendly come up to 312 00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:21,840 Speaker 4: me and say, I would love to get married and 313 00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:28,800 Speaker 4: have kids, but raising children would slow down my career progression, 314 00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:33,280 Speaker 4: and then if I ever got divorced, I would suffer. 315 00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:37,240 Speaker 4: And so she's going to not have kids because she 316 00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:43,440 Speaker 4: needs the insurance product of having her income and her 317 00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:47,720 Speaker 4: work skills be always up to snuff. And I just 318 00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:49,320 Speaker 4: thought that was the saddest thing in the world, but 319 00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:53,400 Speaker 4: also a perfect expression of a lot of what's wrong 320 00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:56,200 Speaker 4: with the modern mindset, and that in the schools, I 321 00:16:56,200 --> 00:16:59,240 Speaker 4: think must be driving that into the kids, and parents 322 00:16:59,280 --> 00:17:01,480 Speaker 4: are driving that into the kids. And so the cultural 323 00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:03,880 Speaker 4: change we need is to say, actually, no happiness is 324 00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:06,959 Speaker 4: laying down your life for other people. Happiness is having friends, 325 00:17:07,040 --> 00:17:11,800 Speaker 4: is belonging is sacrifice, and marriage, the idea of marriage 326 00:17:11,840 --> 00:17:17,240 Speaker 4: as sacrificial absolutely needs to get restored. And again, community 327 00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:19,640 Speaker 4: institutions really help with that because when you show up, 328 00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:22,560 Speaker 4: no matter who you are, at a church picnic, they're like, 329 00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:24,720 Speaker 4: can you throw out the trash? Show in the place 330 00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:27,480 Speaker 4: like northern Virginia, you see like a federal judge is 331 00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:30,119 Speaker 4: a guy walking around throwing out the trash. That's a 332 00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:31,720 Speaker 4: great example. 333 00:17:32,040 --> 00:17:34,240 Speaker 1: Someone lied to that girl, you know, the one who 334 00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:36,880 Speaker 1: doesn't want to have a family because she's afraid of 335 00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:40,520 Speaker 1: her career prospects. I think that every study shows you 336 00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:42,960 Speaker 1: make more money when you get married, and as always, 337 00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:44,159 Speaker 1: you know, it's been true for men. 338 00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:45,800 Speaker 3: For a long time, but it's even true for women. 339 00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:46,120 Speaker 4: Now. 340 00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:48,879 Speaker 2: How do we get over that? 341 00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:51,320 Speaker 1: You know? One of the things that I've learned in 342 00:17:51,359 --> 00:17:54,359 Speaker 1: the last year traveling for my book for Stolen Youth 343 00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:59,640 Speaker 1: was that parents really don't speak their values to their kids. 344 00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:01,200 Speaker 1: They kind kind of think that the kids will pick 345 00:18:01,240 --> 00:18:05,880 Speaker 1: it up through osmosis, which is, you know, effective sometimes 346 00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:08,680 Speaker 1: but then other times it's just not How do we 347 00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:12,960 Speaker 1: get parents to kind of bluntly tell their kids what's important? 348 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:14,720 Speaker 1: And then sort of my part two of that question 349 00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:17,399 Speaker 1: is what the parents don't think it's important. There was 350 00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:21,240 Speaker 1: that Pew study that was like terrifying that parents don't. 351 00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:22,640 Speaker 2: Think that marriage is that important. 352 00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:26,080 Speaker 1: They consider financial security to be far more important for 353 00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:26,639 Speaker 1: their kids. 354 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:31,280 Speaker 4: Like no idea. That was so baffling that Pew survey 355 00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:36,240 Speaker 4: that I thought a slightly different interpretation might be possible, 356 00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:39,080 Speaker 4: and it's also scary. The slightly different interpretation is that 357 00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:45,240 Speaker 4: parents being older gen xers and some younger boomers. In 358 00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:48,679 Speaker 4: that survey, the parents have high school kids basically that 359 00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:54,080 Speaker 4: they would that they just took it for granted. Eventually 360 00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:56,320 Speaker 4: you're going to get married and have kids. And that 361 00:18:56,480 --> 00:19:00,200 Speaker 4: idea not that everybody needs to get married, but that's 362 00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:04,320 Speaker 4: sort of the natural thing to do. That has been 363 00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:08,919 Speaker 4: lost again by this belief that. And I'm a pretty 364 00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:11,000 Speaker 4: big fan of Taylor Swift, but she had a line 365 00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:15,479 Speaker 4: out an NYU commencement where she basically said, you are 366 00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:18,320 Speaker 4: the author of your whole life, and nobody's going to 367 00:19:18,359 --> 00:19:20,959 Speaker 4: help you write the script of your whole life. That 368 00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:24,000 Speaker 4: idea is a horrible idea. It's set in And so 369 00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:26,920 Speaker 4: the idea that there is a natural course of yeah, 370 00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:30,160 Speaker 4: sure there might be best practices of finishing school, don't 371 00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:33,800 Speaker 4: get pregnant before you get married, but the well, yeah, 372 00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:36,560 Speaker 4: most people are going to finish school, get a job, 373 00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:40,119 Speaker 4: get married, have kids. Some people aren't called to that, 374 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:42,479 Speaker 4: but that's what most people are going to do. That 375 00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:46,040 Speaker 4: assumption was a natural, healthy assumption, and now that that's 376 00:19:46,119 --> 00:19:48,879 Speaker 4: gone among the young people, I'm afraid that some of 377 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:52,480 Speaker 4: their parents think, oh, well, eventually they'll do that. But no, 378 00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:56,119 Speaker 4: if they think of marriage and parenthood as like whether 379 00:19:56,240 --> 00:19:59,720 Speaker 4: or not you buy a boat, or whether or not 380 00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:02,160 Speaker 4: you're going to you know what car you're going to get, 381 00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:04,960 Speaker 4: or whether you're going to buy a condo. Well, I'm 382 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:06,760 Speaker 4: going to be deliberate. I'm only going to do this 383 00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:09,840 Speaker 4: if I'm one hundred percent sure it's going to benefit 384 00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:12,000 Speaker 4: me and be the smart thing to do. Well, a 385 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:14,600 Speaker 4: lot of people are just never going to do it. 386 00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:19,040 Speaker 4: So that was sort of my interpretation of that. That Again, 387 00:20:19,119 --> 00:20:22,240 Speaker 4: it's not an uplifting interpretation. It makes a little more 388 00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:24,199 Speaker 4: sense to me than the idea, which still might be 389 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:27,080 Speaker 4: true that a lot of parents have no desire for 390 00:20:27,119 --> 00:20:29,800 Speaker 4: their kids to have families and just want them to 391 00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:30,719 Speaker 4: have Yes. 392 00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:35,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, Well that's funny about Taylor Swift because look at 393 00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:39,280 Speaker 1: the kind of hoopla around her and Travis Kelcey. There's 394 00:20:40,119 --> 00:20:42,760 Speaker 1: as much as she's writing her own story or whatever, 395 00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:46,320 Speaker 1: her fans, her rabid fans, which I live with one 396 00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:48,200 Speaker 1: of them, are dying for her. 397 00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:48,800 Speaker 2: To get married. 398 00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:49,239 Speaker 1: You know. 399 00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:51,800 Speaker 3: They cannot Like They're all like, is he going to 400 00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:52,960 Speaker 3: propose at the Super Bowl? 401 00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:54,639 Speaker 1: And I was like, no, He's definitely not going to 402 00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:55,800 Speaker 1: propose at the Super bowl. 403 00:20:55,920 --> 00:21:00,680 Speaker 4: So maybe if you had caught them past. 404 00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:00,960 Speaker 1: He would have. 405 00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:03,840 Speaker 3: But yes, right, like on the Jumbo Sean right. 406 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:06,240 Speaker 2: Yeah. 407 00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:09,359 Speaker 1: So as much as they all kind of say, oh, 408 00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:11,600 Speaker 1: you know, marriage, take it or leave it, or I 409 00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:13,840 Speaker 1: think that there is somewhere in us and then in 410 00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:16,439 Speaker 1: these young people the idea that it is going to 411 00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:18,280 Speaker 1: happen for them, and it's going to happen for Taylor, 412 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:21,000 Speaker 1: And when it doesn't. 413 00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:22,639 Speaker 2: Happen, I think that's sad. 414 00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:26,160 Speaker 3: I don't know that everybody intended it that way. Taylor 415 00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:28,640 Speaker 3: swift thing is. I just think such a great example of. 416 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:32,399 Speaker 4: That and her uh one of her the two songs 417 00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:35,119 Speaker 4: of hers that I know enough and to like is 418 00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:37,960 Speaker 4: love Story, which is as traditional as possible, and it 419 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:41,359 Speaker 4: reminds me of I remember about ten years ago thinking 420 00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:46,080 Speaker 4: Hollywood still produces a lot of generally conservative themes where 421 00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:49,840 Speaker 4: like going Home Again is finding yourself and I thought, 422 00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:52,000 Speaker 4: why is it? And I thought, well, because that's natural, 423 00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:55,320 Speaker 4: because they know that if they want to make people happy, 424 00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:57,760 Speaker 4: they have to tap into human nature. And if they 425 00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:01,040 Speaker 4: want to build an unnatural storyline, that's going to involve 426 00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:04,600 Speaker 4: a lot more work to make that seem appeal. 427 00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:07,320 Speaker 3: It and a lot of Taylor Swift songs are about 428 00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:08,280 Speaker 3: going home. 429 00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:10,879 Speaker 1: Or remembering people who knew her before she was famous, 430 00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:14,040 Speaker 1: or that kind of thing like the home basis. 431 00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:17,719 Speaker 3: I know a lot of Taylor Swift songs, not just too. 432 00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:19,760 Speaker 1: So I can go through her whole catalog where she, 433 00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:24,040 Speaker 1: you know, having that stability, she praises it, and she 434 00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:27,080 Speaker 1: kind of is where she came from is important to her. 435 00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:29,400 Speaker 2: It's interesting. 436 00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:31,440 Speaker 1: I think what people say and what they really mean 437 00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:33,520 Speaker 1: sometimes doesn't line up. 438 00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:36,760 Speaker 3: So I'm not sure she really meant that she was 439 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:39,040 Speaker 3: going to be the only person writing her story when 440 00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:43,320 Speaker 3: her songs tell a completely different story, you know. So 441 00:22:44,119 --> 00:22:48,080 Speaker 3: policy wise, what can be done to make more family 442 00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:52,600 Speaker 3: friend friendly policies? Short of you know, fixing the sidewalks. 443 00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:54,200 Speaker 4: Again on the local level, A lot of that's going 444 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:58,359 Speaker 4: to be done on the federal level. I think stuff 445 00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:01,880 Speaker 4: like a child tax credit the one we currently have, 446 00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:04,720 Speaker 4: making it a little bigger, making it so that parents 447 00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:07,440 Speaker 4: can claim a bigger credit when the child when the 448 00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:10,680 Speaker 4: children are younger, in exchange for a smaller one when 449 00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:14,440 Speaker 4: they're older. I think those would be smart. But I 450 00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:19,480 Speaker 4: went into writing Family Unfriendly wanting to find like a 451 00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:22,760 Speaker 4: big proposal that would work. And I looked at Hungary, 452 00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:24,840 Speaker 4: and I looked at Japan, and I looked at France, 453 00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:27,359 Speaker 4: and I looked at South Korea, and then Nordic So 454 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:29,800 Speaker 4: you know, you got Denmark, which has had some success, 455 00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:32,760 Speaker 4: but then Sweden, which we thought would have a success 456 00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:35,240 Speaker 4: and had a failure. And again and again I see 457 00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:41,040 Speaker 4: that big national policies sadly don't work, and that what 458 00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:43,879 Speaker 4: you get in a place like France with lots of 459 00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:49,600 Speaker 4: subsidies for parents of kids is a lot less marriage, 460 00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:52,280 Speaker 4: a lot more single motherhood, which is not good for kids, 461 00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:55,719 Speaker 4: who not good for others. What you get in a 462 00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:59,080 Speaker 4: lot of Northern Europe is actually ends up being a 463 00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:03,119 Speaker 4: subsidy for work because they subsidized daycare, and subsidizing daycare 464 00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:06,679 Speaker 4: isn't really subsidizing family. A lot of a lot of 465 00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:09,639 Speaker 4: parents absolutely need that sort of help, but the broad 466 00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:13,400 Speaker 4: societal effect is subsidizing work. And so these Northern European 467 00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:17,960 Speaker 4: countries become more workist, that it becomes sort of their 468 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:21,360 Speaker 4: religion to replace the old religions they used to have, 469 00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:29,439 Speaker 4: and workism is is inimical to family. So the on 470 00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:32,960 Speaker 4: the federal level, I would say subsidizing daycare is not 471 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:37,959 Speaker 4: a winning solution. Massive child allowance is not a winning solution. 472 00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:42,120 Speaker 4: Sort of a healthy slightly larger child tax credit would 473 00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:45,560 Speaker 4: be a good starting point there. There's also other things 474 00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:48,399 Speaker 4: we can do. You know, social Security is being kept 475 00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:54,720 Speaker 4: alive by you know, me and Bethany Mandel having six kids, 476 00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:59,639 Speaker 4: and so we should get either you know, above replacement. 477 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:02,119 Speaker 4: So we should, we should. I'm not saying we should 478 00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:05,119 Speaker 4: get necessarily a massive break from Social Security tax, but 479 00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:09,200 Speaker 4: maybe like there's a standard deduction, have a you don't 480 00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:12,600 Speaker 4: pay Social Security tax until you've reached the poverty line 481 00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:16,119 Speaker 4: for your household size. That's the sort of thing that 482 00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:17,800 Speaker 4: I would put in. And then I also have a 483 00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:20,480 Speaker 4: whole section on at home mom's in the book, and 484 00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:23,560 Speaker 4: one of the points is if you were to graduate 485 00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:25,760 Speaker 4: school and become a stay at home mom, then at 486 00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:30,280 Speaker 4: retirement you have no Social Security money coming your way. 487 00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:33,800 Speaker 4: I think that time spent as a full time caregiver 488 00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:37,920 Speaker 4: to your children should be credited towards social Security work, 489 00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:39,960 Speaker 4: just in the same way that working in an office 490 00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:40,639 Speaker 4: job should be. 491 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:41,360 Speaker 3: Yeah. 492 00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:45,359 Speaker 1: Absolutely, It's funny you mentioned policies not working in Europe. 493 00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:49,520 Speaker 1: I remember the story where Spain gave a really generous 494 00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:53,960 Speaker 1: parental leave, and it actually reduced birth because like the 495 00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:58,399 Speaker 1: dad saw firsthand how difficult like child rearing was and 496 00:25:58,440 --> 00:25:59,880 Speaker 1: they were like, forget it, I don't want any part. 497 00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:02,960 Speaker 1: It's like, let's just have the one. So you know 498 00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:07,160 Speaker 1: it has that effect. Also, yeah, sorry, go ahead. 499 00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:10,840 Speaker 4: I'm gonna say dad spending time with their what I 500 00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:14,159 Speaker 4: call their sentient kids, the non babies, the kids when 501 00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:17,800 Speaker 4: they're old enough to interact. That ends up being pronatal, 502 00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:20,800 Speaker 4: leading to more kids, in part because a mom can 503 00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:23,240 Speaker 4: imagine having another baby if dad's running around with the 504 00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:29,320 Speaker 4: toddler and the other kids. And so I dedicate half 505 00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:34,639 Speaker 4: of two different chapters to workplace policies that would help. 506 00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:38,120 Speaker 4: But really the workplace mindset, the reason women still get 507 00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:40,960 Speaker 4: paid less in the US than men do is because 508 00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:44,640 Speaker 4: mothers want flexibility to be with family. And my response 509 00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:47,600 Speaker 4: to that is not, well, nobody should ever be penalized 510 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:51,080 Speaker 4: for flexibility. My response to that is dad should want 511 00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:54,880 Speaker 4: flexibility too. Dad should leave work early to be able 512 00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:57,040 Speaker 4: to coach their son's T ball game or go to 513 00:26:57,080 --> 00:27:01,280 Speaker 4: their daughter's vallet recital. And male bosses should say your 514 00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:04,000 Speaker 4: family is more important to you and say that to 515 00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:06,320 Speaker 4: the dads as much as to the moms. 516 00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:09,679 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a great point, the fact that like dad's 517 00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:13,320 Speaker 1: at an older age become you know, more interested in 518 00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:14,120 Speaker 1: their children, I. 519 00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:15,560 Speaker 2: Think, than than when they're babies. 520 00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:17,760 Speaker 1: I think that that's like a common thing I've seen 521 00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:22,000 Speaker 1: around me as well. You wrote something one time that 522 00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:23,680 Speaker 1: I really stuck with me. I should have looked it 523 00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:25,679 Speaker 1: up before this interview, but I didn't, so we're going 524 00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:28,600 Speaker 1: to just wing it. But about how the cost of 525 00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:32,879 Speaker 1: having each baby goes down, I think people think, like 526 00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:35,280 Speaker 1: you had six kids, and so each kid is as 527 00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:36,560 Speaker 1: expensive as the first kid. 528 00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:37,120 Speaker 3: But like I. 529 00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:39,920 Speaker 1: Remember you writing this thing where it actually because they 530 00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:41,200 Speaker 1: just hand me downs. 531 00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:43,040 Speaker 3: And you know, you don't buy all new stuff for 532 00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:43,720 Speaker 3: every baby. 533 00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:48,880 Speaker 2: I think that would go a long way towards people. 534 00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:52,240 Speaker 1: Understanding that having more kids is not you know, one 535 00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:54,120 Speaker 1: hundred percent of the cost every time. 536 00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:55,720 Speaker 3: Can you sum up what you said? 537 00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:56,960 Speaker 2: Do you remember that? Yeah? 538 00:27:57,040 --> 00:28:01,800 Speaker 4: Oh absolutely, I mean, uh, ourmous friends would call it 539 00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:06,359 Speaker 4: economies of scale. But so, I mean one of the 540 00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:09,000 Speaker 4: things is when the part I think it's the US 541 00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:12,000 Speaker 4: Department of Agriculture, for some reason, does the estimate of 542 00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:14,679 Speaker 4: the cost of raising a child baked into their estimate 543 00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:18,359 Speaker 4: is that every new kid means one more bedroom in 544 00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:21,120 Speaker 4: the house. So one kid is a two bedroom, two 545 00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:24,000 Speaker 4: kids is a three bedroom. I mean, I know nobody 546 00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:26,840 Speaker 4: who has more than two kids, and every kid has 547 00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:29,720 Speaker 4: their own bedroom. We used to have two kids on 548 00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:32,280 Speaker 4: sharing a bed and it was the bottom bunk of 549 00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:35,760 Speaker 4: a bunk bed and their sister's bed was four feet away. 550 00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:39,280 Speaker 4: Now that was a little little extreme, but you there's 551 00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:41,880 Speaker 4: things called bunk beds, there's things called hand me downs. 552 00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:46,040 Speaker 4: I think it's good for siblings to share a bedroom 553 00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:50,560 Speaker 4: and they entertain themselves like we Sometimes you're giving you're 554 00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:53,240 Speaker 4: putting your kid in an activity just you're paying for 555 00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:57,440 Speaker 4: ballet or soccer, just to keep them busy. When they 556 00:28:57,480 --> 00:28:59,960 Speaker 4: have siblings, you're doing less of that. Ours this last 557 00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:03,600 Speaker 4: summer we didn't take a vacation, and the vacation was 558 00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:08,000 Speaker 4: you've got friends, you've got siblings, go go wherever you want. 559 00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:13,400 Speaker 4: And that was a budgetary constraint we were facing. It 560 00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:15,400 Speaker 4: would have been horrible at this for an only child. 561 00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:18,320 Speaker 4: A gallon of milk doesn't cost four times as much 562 00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:21,120 Speaker 4: as a quart of milk. There's lots of these things, 563 00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:23,840 Speaker 4: and it also the most important thing to get back 564 00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:27,360 Speaker 4: to where we started and where family and friendly starts, 565 00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:31,400 Speaker 4: because it allows you to lower your expectations for yourself. 566 00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:34,400 Speaker 4: You no longer think, oh, I can make these kids 567 00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:37,440 Speaker 4: be perfectly ordered and perfectly dressed and get out the 568 00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:42,720 Speaker 4: door on time for everything and get straight a's and 569 00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:45,080 Speaker 4: get into Harvard. We're just trying to say, are these 570 00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:46,960 Speaker 4: kids going to be happy? Are they going to look 571 00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:50,360 Speaker 4: at family life? Because this is our ambition for our children. 572 00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:52,720 Speaker 4: Are they going to look at their family life and say, 573 00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:56,240 Speaker 4: I want something roughly like what mom and dad had. 574 00:29:56,680 --> 00:29:58,840 Speaker 4: It was fun, And we raise our kids in a 575 00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:02,880 Speaker 4: Catholic environment, and we go to parties, sometimes with the kids, 576 00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:07,120 Speaker 4: sometimes without the kids, and I think they the older 577 00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:10,200 Speaker 4: ones at least they're looking at that as what they 578 00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:13,320 Speaker 4: want from life. And so you're right that we should 579 00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:16,160 Speaker 4: be a little more explicit and say to our kids, 580 00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:20,800 Speaker 4: family is more important than your career. But that's that 581 00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:24,320 Speaker 4: becomes more obvious when you have more of them, that, Okay, 582 00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:26,840 Speaker 4: what we're going to try to accomplish with this family 583 00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:31,040 Speaker 4: is not going to be achievement and perfection, but sort 584 00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:34,160 Speaker 4: of love and liveliness. 585 00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:35,959 Speaker 2: Do you feel like you've made it. 586 00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:40,480 Speaker 4: Do I feel like I've made it? Having six kids? 587 00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:41,040 Speaker 2: Many books? 588 00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:47,720 Speaker 4: How many? This is my fourth book. I have to 589 00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:51,480 Speaker 4: say that sometimes when people talk about their age or 590 00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:54,560 Speaker 4: you know, you turn forty five, I don't want to 591 00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:57,760 Speaker 4: think about how old they are. I never mind turning 592 00:30:57,760 --> 00:31:01,280 Speaker 4: another year, and in part because I feel like I've 593 00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:06,160 Speaker 4: earned those years with six kids. But it really is 594 00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:09,120 Speaker 4: just I yeah, I mean, I'm going to get a 595 00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:13,520 Speaker 4: little choked up here, but being married and having a 596 00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:15,600 Speaker 4: bunch of kids, I do feel like I've made it. 597 00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:20,200 Speaker 4: I feel like there's I can't ask for anything more. 598 00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:23,960 Speaker 4: People have bucket lists or whatever. I don't really have one. 599 00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:26,600 Speaker 4: I mean, someday, I guess I'll be thinking about walking 600 00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:29,719 Speaker 4: my daughters down the aisles or holding grandchildren. But at 601 00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:32,240 Speaker 4: this point in my life, I don't own a house. 602 00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:33,920 Speaker 4: I'd love to own a house. I've never made the 603 00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:35,760 Speaker 4: New York Times bestseller list. I'd love to do that, 604 00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:38,840 Speaker 4: but those are all that's always very secondary. 605 00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:42,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, editorial product. You know they don't care how many 606 00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:43,640 Speaker 1: books you sell. 607 00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:45,080 Speaker 4: It's not scientific, no. 608 00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:46,600 Speaker 2: Right, no, not at all. 609 00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:50,520 Speaker 3: So and here with your best tip for my listers 610 00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:52,880 Speaker 3: on how they can improve their lives. 611 00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:59,720 Speaker 4: If you think about sacrifice coming first, if you realize 612 00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:06,720 Speaker 4: that laying down your life for people you love, that's hard. 613 00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:10,680 Speaker 4: And I think that a lot of what I argue 614 00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:13,640 Speaker 4: in the book is that parenting should be easier. But 615 00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:17,800 Speaker 4: I'm sorry, my dog is now looking at me. But 616 00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:22,320 Speaker 4: but it's the easiest path parent What is the easiest 617 00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:25,800 Speaker 4: path to virtue? And it's the easiest way to sacrifice? 618 00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:28,040 Speaker 4: I said, I'm a Catholic. Jesus sold us to feed 619 00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:30,440 Speaker 4: the hungry and clothe the naked. There are hungry, naked 620 00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:34,320 Speaker 4: people in my house begging for my health. So building 621 00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:37,760 Speaker 4: your life so that sacrifice for others is easy really 622 00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:40,320 Speaker 4: is the easiest path to happiness. 623 00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:42,280 Speaker 2: I love that he is Tim Carney. 624 00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:44,280 Speaker 3: His book Family Unfriendly is out now. 625 00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:44,800 Speaker 4: Buy it. 626 00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:47,080 Speaker 1: Help him make that New York Times bestseller list That 627 00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:48,520 Speaker 1: ultimately doesn't matter anyway. 628 00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:49,600 Speaker 2: Thank you so. 629 00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:51,360 Speaker 4: Much, Tim, Thank you Carol. 630 00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:54,080 Speaker 2: Thanks so much for joining us on the Carol Marco 631 00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:54,480 Speaker 2: which show. 632 00:32:54,560 --> 00:33:02,200 Speaker 1: Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.