1 00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:04,800 Speaker 1: All Zone Media. 2 00:00:04,960 --> 00:00:07,400 Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to It Could Happen Here, a podcast 3 00:00:07,400 --> 00:00:10,319 Speaker 2: about things falling apart and how we try to put 4 00:00:10,360 --> 00:00:13,720 Speaker 2: things back together again. It's sort of the Humpty Dumpty 5 00:00:13,760 --> 00:00:17,119 Speaker 2: of podcasts. And of course, all the King's horses and 6 00:00:17,120 --> 00:00:19,240 Speaker 2: all the kings men can't put us back together again 7 00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:22,280 Speaker 2: because the attendance of power will never solve our problems 8 00:00:22,280 --> 00:00:24,640 Speaker 2: for us. It's up to us to collectively solve our 9 00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:29,360 Speaker 2: own problems. I'm your guest host with all the dramatic metaphors, 10 00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:34,960 Speaker 2: Margaret Giljoy. Today it's one of those things falling apart episodes. 11 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:37,680 Speaker 2: Today we're going to be talking about the Kinsey Institute 12 00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:41,440 Speaker 2: for Research and Sex, Gender, and Reproduction, a research institute 13 00:00:41,440 --> 00:00:45,559 Speaker 2: in Bloomington, Indiana. Its mission is to quote foster and 14 00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:50,800 Speaker 2: promote a greater understanding of human sexuality and relationships to research, outreach, education, 15 00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:56,320 Speaker 2: and historical preservation. The Kinsey Institute, in many ways, isn't 16 00:00:56,400 --> 00:01:00,440 Speaker 2: just a sexual research center. It's the sexual research center. 17 00:01:00,920 --> 00:01:03,880 Speaker 2: We're going to be talking to Dev Montonez, who last 18 00:01:03,920 --> 00:01:06,760 Speaker 2: week gave me a tour of the center. But first 19 00:01:07,160 --> 00:01:11,319 Speaker 2: being me, I want to give you all context. I'm 20 00:01:11,319 --> 00:01:13,760 Speaker 2: going to talk about history. I'm going to talk about 21 00:01:13,800 --> 00:01:18,560 Speaker 2: a different institute for sexual research called well, the Institute 22 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:22,119 Speaker 2: for Sexual Research, except it was in Berlin from nineteen 23 00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:25,160 Speaker 2: nineteen to nineteen thirty three, so they called it the 24 00:01:25,400 --> 00:01:30,240 Speaker 2: Institute for Sexual Wistenschaft. History sometimes remembers it as Hirschfeldt 25 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:35,840 Speaker 2: Institute after Magnus Hirschfeldt, the director of it for fourteen years. 26 00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:40,560 Speaker 2: The institute researched human sexuality. They offered consulting on matters 27 00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:43,640 Speaker 2: of sex to straight and gay people. They pioneered a 28 00:01:43,680 --> 00:01:48,120 Speaker 2: ton of transsexual medical practices, including pushing for the shocking 29 00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:51,640 Speaker 2: at the time idea that trans people are happier if 30 00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:54,280 Speaker 2: we're just allowed to socially transition and live as our 31 00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:58,960 Speaker 2: preferred gender, which they observed led to a dramatic drop 32 00:01:58,960 --> 00:02:03,400 Speaker 2: in suicide rates. This is medical practice that has continued, 33 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:05,560 Speaker 2: and we have more and more research about that to 34 00:02:05,600 --> 00:02:11,040 Speaker 2: this day. The institute coined the terms transvestite and transsexual. 35 00:02:11,639 --> 00:02:15,040 Speaker 2: They performed the first gender confirmation surgery in known history 36 00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:18,639 Speaker 2: on a woman named Dora Richter in nineteen thirty. They 37 00:02:18,680 --> 00:02:24,040 Speaker 2: worked alongside pro homosexual advocacy groups. Germany led the Western 38 00:02:24,080 --> 00:02:27,960 Speaker 2: world in acceptance of LGBT folks in the nineteen twenties 39 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:32,600 Speaker 2: and early nineteen thirties. It was founded by three Jewish researchers, 40 00:02:33,320 --> 00:02:37,000 Speaker 2: the most famous of whom is the director Magnus Hirschfeld. 41 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:42,079 Speaker 2: The institute itself, however, is famous today for one thing. 42 00:02:43,639 --> 00:02:47,320 Speaker 2: Imagine a picture of a book burning. The first picture 43 00:02:47,360 --> 00:02:49,840 Speaker 2: that comes to your mind is probably black and white, 44 00:02:50,200 --> 00:02:53,760 Speaker 2: and it's of Nazis. This photo is used any time 45 00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:56,840 Speaker 2: someone wants to say something like, the Nazis are bad, 46 00:02:57,120 --> 00:03:01,119 Speaker 2: they burned books. What usually goes it was unsaid when 47 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:05,080 Speaker 2: this photo is reproduced, is what books those Nazis were burning. 48 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:10,720 Speaker 2: They were burning the institute. On May sixth, nineteen thirty three, 49 00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:15,200 Speaker 2: Nazis burned around twenty thousand books, destroying endless amounts of 50 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:21,400 Speaker 2: research into homosexuality, transsexuality, and cross dressing. Joseph Goebbels, the 51 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:24,400 Speaker 2: chief propagandist of the Nazis, was present. He gave a 52 00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:28,480 Speaker 2: speech to forty thousand people during that book burning, so 53 00:03:28,760 --> 00:03:33,400 Speaker 2: ended the Institute for Sexual Research. The first transwoman to 54 00:03:33,480 --> 00:03:38,000 Speaker 2: undergo gender confirmation surgery, Dora Richter. She was either killed 55 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:40,880 Speaker 2: in this attack or she was arrested and died in prison. 56 00:03:40,920 --> 00:03:46,240 Speaker 2: Shortly thereafter. Her exact fate is unknown. Magnus himself was 57 00:03:46,280 --> 00:03:49,000 Speaker 2: out of the country at the time, and he never returned. 58 00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:54,120 Speaker 2: He died in exile in France. This, I believe, is 59 00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:56,040 Speaker 2: the context we need to hold onto when we talk 60 00:03:56,040 --> 00:03:58,600 Speaker 2: about the Kinsey Institute, when we talk about what they're 61 00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:02,040 Speaker 2: facing today, as we watch people running for office in 62 00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:06,240 Speaker 2: this country wielding flamethrowers to burn books and campaign ads, 63 00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:11,840 Speaker 2: while librarians face criminal penalties for making books available to students. Eventually, 64 00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:14,520 Speaker 2: the Nazis were defeated, of course, they were defeated through 65 00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:17,200 Speaker 2: force of arms, after great loss of life and a 66 00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:22,000 Speaker 2: coming together of ideological enemies like capitalists and authoritarian communists. 67 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:29,159 Speaker 2: Shortly thereafter, in nineteen forty seven, a bisexual, polyamorous sexologist 68 00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:32,920 Speaker 2: named Alfred Charles Kinsey founded his own Institute for Sex 69 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:37,720 Speaker 2: Research at Indiana University in Bloomington, Indiana, seventy seven years 70 00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:41,320 Speaker 2: ago for those keeping track. Thereafter, he produced work that's 71 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:45,880 Speaker 2: foundational to modern sexology. Most famous today is the Kinsey Scale, 72 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:50,640 Speaker 2: which broke homosexuality and heterosexuality out of a binary. Maybe 73 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:52,760 Speaker 2: the most famous at the time of his work, though, 74 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:55,840 Speaker 2: was his nineteen forty eight book Sexual Behavior and the 75 00:04:55,920 --> 00:04:59,120 Speaker 2: Human Male in his later book, Sexual Behavior in the 76 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:03,520 Speaker 2: Human Female, which are often called the Kinsey Reports, which 77 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:07,520 Speaker 2: offered groundbreaking analysis like it turns out women enjoy sex 78 00:05:07,560 --> 00:05:11,400 Speaker 2: also and also that thirty seven percent of men had 79 00:05:11,440 --> 00:05:16,720 Speaker 2: had quote overt homosexual experience to orgasm, which shocked the 80 00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:20,400 Speaker 2: hell out of the world. Well, it probably shocked about 81 00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:25,000 Speaker 2: sixty seven percent of the world. Since then, the Kinsey 82 00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:28,440 Speaker 2: Institute has been one of the premier sexology research institutes 83 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:32,160 Speaker 2: and archives in the world, and now in the twenty twenties, 84 00:05:32,680 --> 00:05:34,840 Speaker 2: it finds itself at the center of a culture war 85 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:38,880 Speaker 2: and conservative backlash. For decades, the right wing has tried 86 00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:41,960 Speaker 2: and failed to find evidence that Kinsey himself was a pedophile. 87 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:46,640 Speaker 2: Last February, the Republican government of Indiana voted for House 88 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:50,920 Speaker 2: Bill one thousand and one, which bars state money from 89 00:05:50,960 --> 00:05:54,440 Speaker 2: funding the institute. To tell us what's happened with that, 90 00:05:55,080 --> 00:05:57,680 Speaker 2: what the future of the institute is likely to be, 91 00:05:58,279 --> 00:06:00,520 Speaker 2: and how all this ties into the culture wars that 92 00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:04,400 Speaker 2: we're living through right now, we have Dev Montanez, the 93 00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:08,000 Speaker 2: admin coordinator of the institute and a student at Indiana University. 94 00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:13,640 Speaker 2: Hi Dev Hey, Thanks for listening to my long intro. 95 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:17,880 Speaker 3: It's good for me to, you know, know some of 96 00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:21,000 Speaker 3: the history behind the place that I'm at forty hours 97 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:21,360 Speaker 3: a week. 98 00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:27,760 Speaker 2: So could you introduce yourself about a little bit about 99 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:30,800 Speaker 2: the work that you do at the institute And I 100 00:06:30,839 --> 00:06:33,320 Speaker 2: don't know maybe what brought you there, but just yeah. 101 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:40,000 Speaker 3: So I started back in early twenty twenty two as 102 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:42,800 Speaker 3: kind of the person who was spearheading the seventy fifth 103 00:06:42,839 --> 00:06:45,240 Speaker 3: anniversary celebrations that we were. 104 00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:45,680 Speaker 4: Going to have. 105 00:06:47,400 --> 00:06:51,360 Speaker 3: And I am lucky enough that I have a background 106 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:55,760 Speaker 3: in DIY punk and so my organization skills are largely 107 00:06:56,640 --> 00:07:01,120 Speaker 3: from that and not from any type of institution. Somehow, 108 00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:07,000 Speaker 3: those skills go over really well in academia. Okay, a 109 00:07:07,040 --> 00:07:09,600 Speaker 3: few of my friends that are like postdocs and stuff 110 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:12,880 Speaker 3: that are now in you know, academic worlds, are like, 111 00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:15,800 Speaker 3: oh yeah, this has helped me, you know, running shows 112 00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:18,000 Speaker 3: has really helped me run research projects. 113 00:07:18,440 --> 00:07:21,200 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, because it's all about having your own initiative 114 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:24,320 Speaker 2: and working for people exactly and interesting. 115 00:07:24,840 --> 00:07:27,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's been. It's been great to see and kind 116 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:28,920 Speaker 3: of be in the middle of it. 117 00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:29,800 Speaker 2: Yeah. 118 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:30,760 Speaker 4: Yeah. 119 00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:33,840 Speaker 3: I was originally at Rutgers and then I didn't finish 120 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:37,880 Speaker 3: my degree there. Dropped out because of financial issues, of course, 121 00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:41,760 Speaker 3: as that's what happens when you're in college. Yeah, and 122 00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:47,200 Speaker 3: I was in Bloomington for a long time, almost seven years, 123 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:50,200 Speaker 3: I want to say, before I started working here. And 124 00:07:50,440 --> 00:07:53,440 Speaker 3: I started working here, and I was like, well, I 125 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:57,720 Speaker 3: get like a little bit of tuition reimbursement for working here, 126 00:07:57,880 --> 00:08:01,600 Speaker 3: I might as well finish it. So now I'm at 127 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:04,400 Speaker 3: the purpose of or at the standstill of my life, 128 00:08:04,400 --> 00:08:07,880 Speaker 3: where I am back in school and working full time. Yeah, 129 00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:10,080 Speaker 3: mainly just to get it over. 130 00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:13,080 Speaker 2: With, get working full time over with. 131 00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:17,600 Speaker 3: Uh No, well I wish get the degree over with. 132 00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:21,560 Speaker 4: The debt, I might as well have it. 133 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:25,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, So okay, So you work for the Kinsey Institute, 134 00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:29,080 Speaker 2: and the Kinsey Institute is totally fine and on solid 135 00:08:29,080 --> 00:08:31,360 Speaker 2: footing and is completely okay. So this is the thing 136 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:34,720 Speaker 2: that surprised me, you know, when I came and visited 137 00:08:34,720 --> 00:08:37,640 Speaker 2: the Kinsey Institute and thank you for the tour of 138 00:08:37,640 --> 00:08:42,840 Speaker 2: the institute. I the Kinsey Institute is such a institute, 139 00:08:42,920 --> 00:08:46,440 Speaker 2: such a monolith, such a a thing that has existed 140 00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:50,920 Speaker 2: for so long. It's hard for me to imagine people 141 00:08:50,960 --> 00:08:53,400 Speaker 2: being really mad at it, Like it's it's hard for 142 00:08:53,440 --> 00:08:58,440 Speaker 2: me to imagine that it's in trouble and it seems 143 00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:00,480 Speaker 2: too big to fail, but like not too big, but 144 00:09:00,559 --> 00:09:06,559 Speaker 2: too institutional, too important, Like I can't imagine someone saying, oh, 145 00:09:06,559 --> 00:09:09,960 Speaker 2: we want to get rid of this incredibly important historical thing. 146 00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:12,360 Speaker 2: I guess that's what a lot of the culture wars 147 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:15,880 Speaker 2: actually are about. So what's going on? 148 00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:22,439 Speaker 3: Okay, so last summer, but it was like the budget 149 00:09:22,559 --> 00:09:28,440 Speaker 3: vote I think for Indiana government, state government, and they 150 00:09:29,679 --> 00:09:35,960 Speaker 3: someone Larisa sweet is her name, the representative who proposed this, 151 00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:42,679 Speaker 3: basically decided to say Kensing's too is perverts, and you 152 00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:47,720 Speaker 3: we shouldn't fund them with state money, which would you 153 00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:51,800 Speaker 3: know under I guess understandable. But we're not funded by 154 00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:56,559 Speaker 3: state money. Okay, only like a small percentage of the 155 00:09:56,640 --> 00:10:01,120 Speaker 3: university as a whole is funded by state government, so 156 00:10:01,559 --> 00:10:05,520 Speaker 3: it's not quite like your tax dollars are paying for 157 00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:10,320 Speaker 3: us to exist. We are able to utilize the services 158 00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:15,560 Speaker 3: of the university, which is very helpful in the case 159 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:19,200 Speaker 3: of being If we were like a nonprofit, we'd probably 160 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:21,440 Speaker 3: have to do a lot of that work, like legwork 161 00:10:21,520 --> 00:10:25,000 Speaker 3: in terms of like keep of a building, like we'd 162 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:25,520 Speaker 3: have to do that. 163 00:10:25,520 --> 00:10:26,760 Speaker 4: On our own right. 164 00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:32,240 Speaker 3: But the university, the state government does not fund us. 165 00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:36,800 Speaker 3: We're funded by donors. We're funded by grants that we 166 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:41,439 Speaker 3: receive and endowments that exist that other people have given 167 00:10:41,520 --> 00:10:44,160 Speaker 3: us because they believe in the worst that we do 168 00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:46,160 Speaker 3: and they want to see it continue. 169 00:10:47,520 --> 00:10:51,400 Speaker 2: So why are they trying to go after the wrong 170 00:10:51,480 --> 00:10:53,480 Speaker 2: source of your funding? And how does it end up 171 00:10:53,480 --> 00:10:57,679 Speaker 2: impacting you like that they've passed this you know, essentially 172 00:10:57,760 --> 00:11:00,960 Speaker 2: law to take money away from you that you weren't using. 173 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:07,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, So the big thing is that there is a 174 00:11:07,559 --> 00:11:12,640 Speaker 3: lot of misinformation about Alfred Kinsey and his first book, 175 00:11:12,760 --> 00:11:15,400 Speaker 3: The Human Behavior of the sorry the Sexual Behavior of 176 00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:20,600 Speaker 3: the Human Male, And there is a table within it 177 00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:25,800 Speaker 3: of doctor Kinsey. When he did his research, he interviewed 178 00:11:25,800 --> 00:11:31,080 Speaker 3: people specifically to ask them, you know, when were you first, 179 00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:35,120 Speaker 3: like first realizing your sexual arousal. 180 00:11:36,520 --> 00:11:37,600 Speaker 4: And some people. 181 00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:40,040 Speaker 3: Said, you know, I was this age, I was twelve, 182 00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:44,360 Speaker 3: I was five. And as a child, you know that 183 00:11:44,400 --> 00:11:47,000 Speaker 3: you play around with your body because you're learning it 184 00:11:47,640 --> 00:11:50,600 Speaker 3: because you've never used most of these things before. 185 00:11:50,679 --> 00:11:51,440 Speaker 4: It's brand new. 186 00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:56,760 Speaker 3: And so he had years in their ages in there 187 00:11:56,840 --> 00:12:00,960 Speaker 3: that were younger than anyone that is cannservative. Would want 188 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:04,000 Speaker 3: to believe that you would be sexually. 189 00:12:03,559 --> 00:12:08,880 Speaker 2: Aroused, right unless you're going to marry a heterosexually into 190 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:10,840 Speaker 2: a pastor Yeah, yeah, exactly. 191 00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:15,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, child marriage is coming back, So there's that too. Yeah, 192 00:12:15,160 --> 00:12:18,680 Speaker 3: So there's that that exists. Is a lot of people 193 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:20,800 Speaker 3: who don't understand the research that he does. 194 00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:21,280 Speaker 4: Period. 195 00:12:22,040 --> 00:12:24,120 Speaker 3: There was a lot of backlash when he had when 196 00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:26,760 Speaker 3: he did his work because people didn't want to believe 197 00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:32,000 Speaker 3: that anyone was having premarital sex, that anyone was homosexual 198 00:12:32,080 --> 00:12:38,080 Speaker 3: and it was normal, or that anyone any woman enjoys sex, 199 00:12:38,559 --> 00:12:41,200 Speaker 3: right because it's for one thing only, right. 200 00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:45,079 Speaker 2: So they looked at this chart that said five year 201 00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:51,360 Speaker 2: olds experienced sexual attraction and said he's interviewing five year olds? 202 00:12:51,640 --> 00:12:52,160 Speaker 2: Is that. 203 00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:59,520 Speaker 3: Basically, or rather that he was doing experiments on five 204 00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:04,480 Speaker 3: year olds. His work is like physical because he is 205 00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:09,599 Speaker 3: a zoologist, right, biologist by nature. And I'm going to 206 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:11,880 Speaker 3: guess they think that any research that you do has 207 00:13:11,920 --> 00:13:13,960 Speaker 3: to be with a person in one room and not 208 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:18,720 Speaker 3: you know, social interviews or oral histographies, like they don't 209 00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:20,160 Speaker 3: put those two things together. 210 00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:22,679 Speaker 2: Right, And I was reading that they have a lot 211 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:25,280 Speaker 2: of I was expecting when I when I looked at this, 212 00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:27,880 Speaker 2: I was expecting to find like op eds from the 213 00:13:27,920 --> 00:13:30,920 Speaker 2: fifties or something, But I'm finding things from twenty twenty 214 00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:35,400 Speaker 2: three of people throwing a fit about the fact that 215 00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:38,679 Speaker 2: he during some of this he did like, I mean, 216 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:41,000 Speaker 2: he was kinky. It seemed like right, he like filmed 217 00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:44,760 Speaker 2: himself fucking, and he filmed his wife fucking, and he 218 00:13:46,040 --> 00:13:49,000 Speaker 2: a bunch of consenting adults had some sex that he 219 00:13:49,120 --> 00:13:53,480 Speaker 2: was around for. And that's like meant to mean that 220 00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:55,640 Speaker 2: he is a horrible, weird monster. 221 00:13:56,440 --> 00:14:00,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, And truly, none of my work has anything to 222 00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:02,880 Speaker 3: do with or literally anyone's work has anything to do 223 00:14:02,920 --> 00:14:06,280 Speaker 3: with what Kinsey might have done when he was here, 224 00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:10,720 Speaker 3: because he died so like within eight years of the. 225 00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:12,080 Speaker 4: Institute even being a thing. 226 00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:13,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, so. 227 00:14:15,480 --> 00:14:18,920 Speaker 3: I don't know, it's not important to the work that 228 00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:21,400 Speaker 3: we do now, even if he was a kinky person, 229 00:14:21,520 --> 00:14:26,360 Speaker 3: Like people that get into sex research are interested in sex, 230 00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:27,960 Speaker 3: so he wanted to. 231 00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:31,720 Speaker 4: Try stuff out. I guess, like, who does it. That's 232 00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:33,520 Speaker 4: like the point of being alive. 233 00:14:34,240 --> 00:14:38,080 Speaker 2: No, No, actually, the point of being alive is buying 234 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:41,320 Speaker 2: goods and services from our advertisers. I don't know if 235 00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:43,040 Speaker 2: you knew this. I think you thought it was about 236 00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:47,680 Speaker 2: seeking joy, but it's actually about filling the gaping mall 237 00:14:47,960 --> 00:15:00,360 Speaker 2: at the center of your life with products like these ones. 238 00:15:02,680 --> 00:15:07,000 Speaker 2: And we're back. Okay, So obviously people have a problem 239 00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:09,160 Speaker 2: with this man who's been dead since the fifties, and 240 00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:12,040 Speaker 2: therefore I'm mad at this institute that keeps track of 241 00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:14,280 Speaker 2: a lot of stuff over the years, like an archive. 242 00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:17,920 Speaker 2: What do they when they try to pull state funding 243 00:15:17,920 --> 00:15:20,840 Speaker 2: from you? How does that impact you? You were saying 244 00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:24,240 Speaker 2: that that's like not you know, does it primarily impact 245 00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:26,960 Speaker 2: you because everyone's suddenly aware of and mad at you again, 246 00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:29,920 Speaker 2: or does it actually also like is it going to 247 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:31,400 Speaker 2: cut your funding? Like what's happening. 248 00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:37,360 Speaker 3: So what's happening is there's now a I don't want 249 00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:42,160 Speaker 3: to say like a disagreement, but there's a there's people 250 00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:45,440 Speaker 3: trying to figure out how to be compliant with this law, 251 00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:51,040 Speaker 3: which means that they need to go into certain administrative 252 00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:55,600 Speaker 3: burdens to prove that we don't get these fonts. Okay, 253 00:15:56,040 --> 00:16:01,400 Speaker 3: that's really all that it is. Otherwise we are pretty 254 00:16:01,520 --> 00:16:06,480 Speaker 3: good standing. It's it's more so at least now. The 255 00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:11,560 Speaker 3: board of Trustie's voted on Friday and they basically brought 256 00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:15,960 Speaker 3: in the president's recommendation of do not separate us from 257 00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:20,800 Speaker 3: the from the university, and so that happened on Friday, 258 00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:26,240 Speaker 3: March first was the day that that went through. So 259 00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:29,000 Speaker 3: we are all feeling pretty good. We all kind of 260 00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:31,200 Speaker 3: had a little bit of a not so much a 261 00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:35,800 Speaker 3: victory lap, but like a we've been hearing this for 262 00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:40,040 Speaker 3: the last six months of worrying about what's going to 263 00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:42,680 Speaker 3: happen to this place that we all love and that 264 00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:45,960 Speaker 3: carries so many things because of the librarians who are 265 00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:48,440 Speaker 3: around in the artifice. Who are around aren't the people 266 00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:55,480 Speaker 3: handling the collection, And the legislature later decides, I, you 267 00:16:55,560 --> 00:16:58,960 Speaker 3: in a university can't hold anything that is obscene. 268 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:04,080 Speaker 4: I scene is you know I have the beholder. 269 00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:09,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, it could easily mean that this, like six hundred 270 00:17:09,160 --> 00:17:12,680 Speaker 3: thousand artifacts that we hold in our collections are gone 271 00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:16,160 Speaker 3: and we have stuff that spans two thousand years. It's 272 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:21,000 Speaker 3: not just items that are around today, and everything that 273 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:24,199 Speaker 3: we get is donated. We don't buy any of the 274 00:17:24,240 --> 00:17:28,840 Speaker 3: items per secon People just mail them to. 275 00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:32,760 Speaker 2: Us, the kind of things that normally if you mail 276 00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:34,040 Speaker 2: to someone you might get in trouble. 277 00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:38,840 Speaker 3: Yes, exactly, and that was kind of the people still 278 00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:39,919 Speaker 3: think they're going to get in trouble. 279 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:41,400 Speaker 4: Yeah, kind of the point. 280 00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:45,320 Speaker 3: Like I've heard that people have like shipped porn in 281 00:17:46,119 --> 00:17:50,680 Speaker 3: cereal boxes as a way to like hide them because 282 00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:54,359 Speaker 3: they're still worried that the Comstock law is around in 283 00:17:54,359 --> 00:17:58,240 Speaker 3: a way that will make these items be destroyed. 284 00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:01,720 Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, okay, Oh, there's so many parts of this 285 00:18:01,800 --> 00:18:04,520 Speaker 2: that I want to talk about. I actually thought about 286 00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:07,480 Speaker 2: this because I mailed a book from the Kinsey Institute 287 00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:09,800 Speaker 2: to someone last week, and as I was packaging it up, 288 00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:13,600 Speaker 2: I was thinking to myself, this used to be a crime, 289 00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:16,720 Speaker 2: the Comstock laws. For anyone who's curious, there was this 290 00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:21,159 Speaker 2: historical pervert named Comstock, And by that I mean he 291 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:23,920 Speaker 2: was the largest collector of porn of his era who 292 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:30,240 Speaker 2: was on a wild crusade against perversion and birth control 293 00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:33,639 Speaker 2: and all of these things, and he went around and 294 00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:35,960 Speaker 2: stopped people. He got all these laws passed that he 295 00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:39,000 Speaker 2: can't pass pornographic materials through the US. 296 00:18:39,040 --> 00:18:39,280 Speaker 3: Maile. 297 00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:43,000 Speaker 2: That was like his big contribution to society, besides ruining 298 00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:48,760 Speaker 2: an awful lot of people's lives. And that's coming up again, 299 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:51,080 Speaker 2: like the ghost of the comstock laws. Do you want 300 00:18:51,119 --> 00:18:51,600 Speaker 2: to talk about that. 301 00:18:52,840 --> 00:19:00,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, So we have book bans happening within libraries. I honestly, 302 00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:04,040 Speaker 3: I am not positive what is happening within Indiana libraries. 303 00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:05,480 Speaker 4: But there is a. 304 00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:09,880 Speaker 3: Group of I would say parent groups, but I don't 305 00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:12,560 Speaker 3: even know that they're actually still parents of children. It's 306 00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:18,320 Speaker 3: usually like women in their mid fifties and later who 307 00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:24,800 Speaker 3: are running for superintendent or the school board whatever, and 308 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:28,000 Speaker 3: now coming up with these ways that children can't interact 309 00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:34,520 Speaker 3: with items that maybe have never been illegal in the past, 310 00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:38,159 Speaker 3: so to speak. Like if any book mentions sex of 311 00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:42,359 Speaker 3: any kind, right, it can't be around. If anyone is 312 00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:49,760 Speaker 3: homosexual in any of the books, it's banned in their eyes. Yeah, 313 00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:53,439 Speaker 3: and you know a majority of our books are a 314 00:19:53,440 --> 00:19:54,639 Speaker 3: lot of those things. 315 00:19:56,080 --> 00:19:58,080 Speaker 2: I'm sure there's some straight stuff in there if you 316 00:19:58,119 --> 00:19:58,840 Speaker 2: look really hard. 317 00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:02,560 Speaker 3: Well. I today I was in the reading room that 318 00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:06,399 Speaker 3: we have and we had out the It was called 319 00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:11,159 Speaker 3: the like Wild Edibles of the Eastern North America, And 320 00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:14,120 Speaker 3: it was a book written by Alfred Kinsey because he 321 00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:15,360 Speaker 3: was a he. 322 00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:18,719 Speaker 4: Was like an eagle scout, yeah, like loved nature. 323 00:20:19,119 --> 00:20:20,640 Speaker 2: He was one of the first eagle scouts. 324 00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:23,560 Speaker 4: Actually, yeah, you know more about him than I too. 325 00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:27,000 Speaker 2: I just read about him in order to prepare this introduction. 326 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:32,399 Speaker 3: But a lot of those groups, like Moms for Liberty, 327 00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:36,320 Speaker 3: they're the ones who are like a big crusade right now. 328 00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:42,920 Speaker 3: When I first started, we just got a statue installed 329 00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:48,040 Speaker 3: behind our building of Alfred Kinsey, and that is kind 330 00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:51,760 Speaker 3: of when the majority of the threats that we would 331 00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:56,160 Speaker 3: get started. Okay, when they start talking about this statue. 332 00:20:56,920 --> 00:20:58,560 Speaker 3: I have talked to people that have worked here for 333 00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:02,840 Speaker 3: twenty years and they have said they've never seen threats 334 00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:04,240 Speaker 3: come in like this ever before. 335 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:05,680 Speaker 2: Yeah. 336 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:10,520 Speaker 3: So it's people talking about like bombing the statue, calls 337 00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:14,359 Speaker 3: about you know, being a sexual predator, a deviant, or 338 00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:17,960 Speaker 3: you know, you guys should all die, and it's very 339 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:22,280 Speaker 3: directed at us, right, It's it's less of being directed 340 00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:25,720 Speaker 3: at like a random abstract thing. 341 00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:26,440 Speaker 2: Right. 342 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:29,399 Speaker 3: We have gotten a lot of harassment in terms of 343 00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:32,879 Speaker 3: like people who because they think, oh, you do sex research, 344 00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:34,400 Speaker 3: so you want a picture of my dick? 345 00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:36,760 Speaker 2: So interesting. 346 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:40,159 Speaker 4: Yeah, so that will happen at times. 347 00:21:40,520 --> 00:21:44,160 Speaker 2: You all should do an exhibit of the dick pics 348 00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:48,639 Speaker 2: that have been donated so kindly to your institution and 349 00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:52,560 Speaker 2: the individuals who work for it, are are a rating 350 00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:53,480 Speaker 2: system underneath. 351 00:21:53,880 --> 00:22:00,800 Speaker 3: I'm sure a curator, a compassman will love that. We 352 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:05,199 Speaker 3: actually just got in donated to us was the Cynthia 353 00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:08,439 Speaker 3: plaster Casters, her Dick molds that she did of the 354 00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:12,960 Speaker 3: in the eighties. She's like a famous groupieka like rock stars. 355 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:16,840 Speaker 3: So we have like Jimmy Hendrick's keenis whoa you know, 356 00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:20,719 Speaker 3: bronze mold and that's the next big exhibition that's supposed 357 00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:25,280 Speaker 3: to happen. But we also have like Jello Biafra whow Okay, 358 00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:26,640 Speaker 3: it's hilarious. 359 00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:30,120 Speaker 2: Would you all get never mind? I was thinking abou 360 00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:31,280 Speaker 2: how you all can make some money? 361 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:33,919 Speaker 4: Lots of people are thinking of that. 362 00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:41,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, huh well no, it's okay. So it's so 363 00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:43,800 Speaker 2: interesting to me, right because it seems like their attempt 364 00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:48,240 Speaker 2: to shut you down legislatively was a swing and a miss. Right. 365 00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:50,880 Speaker 2: It was this thing that they they thought that they 366 00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:52,920 Speaker 2: had this thing that they're like, haha, we're going to 367 00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:55,280 Speaker 2: get those perverts by cutting off their funding. And then 368 00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:58,240 Speaker 2: everyone was like, well, that's not where the funding comes from. 369 00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:00,720 Speaker 2: And the university was like we kind of like this place. 370 00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:02,840 Speaker 2: It's been around for seventy seven years. It's literally the 371 00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:06,760 Speaker 2: only reason anyone outside of Indiana has ever heard of us. Yeah, 372 00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:07,560 Speaker 2: is that kind. 373 00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:10,720 Speaker 3: Of a that's definitely the vibe we had like a 374 00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:15,280 Speaker 3: series of listening sessions with the higher administration of like 375 00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:20,560 Speaker 3: the public, well the university public coming in and just 376 00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:23,640 Speaker 3: basically a lot of them saying the Kinzians too. 377 00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:26,800 Speaker 4: Is the only reason why I came to Ium. 378 00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:30,840 Speaker 3: The fact that this is here allows me to do 379 00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:35,560 Speaker 3: my research, even if their research is in like Eastern European. 380 00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:37,560 Speaker 4: You know, like faberge Eggs. 381 00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:41,640 Speaker 3: Right, So it gives people a chance to see that 382 00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:45,600 Speaker 3: like academic freedom and like freedom to research what you 383 00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:52,119 Speaker 3: want is possible, and not just possible, but like encouraged. Right, Like, 384 00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:56,080 Speaker 3: as an R one university, we should be doing we 385 00:23:56,119 --> 00:24:01,480 Speaker 3: should be researching things that aren't or taboo at times, Yeah, 386 00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:05,120 Speaker 3: and are actually trying to help the world rather than 387 00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:07,200 Speaker 3: making money for. 388 00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:09,960 Speaker 4: Some investor somewhere. 389 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:17,440 Speaker 2: Right, No, because that seems like the entire point of academia, right, Academia. Okay, 390 00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:19,040 Speaker 2: this is really interesting to me because I have kind 391 00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:21,240 Speaker 2: of a bit of a love hate relationship with academia, 392 00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:22,479 Speaker 2: and you know, there's a lot of critiques that can 393 00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:25,040 Speaker 2: be laid at sort of ivory tower and locking away 394 00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:28,560 Speaker 2: information and things. But yet as we enter this sort 395 00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:32,040 Speaker 2: of anti intellectual time that is absolutely a right wing 396 00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:34,320 Speaker 2: culture war thing is to be anti intellectual and in 397 00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:39,440 Speaker 2: this case, specifically shut down the academy's ability to preserve 398 00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:42,119 Speaker 2: and transfer knowledge. Like, the problem from my point of 399 00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:45,760 Speaker 2: view is that when there are limits to how well 400 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:50,400 Speaker 2: the information can be transferred, Rather than the right wing 401 00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:54,680 Speaker 2: anti intellectualism, well, I anti intellectualism broadly, I'm not trying 402 00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:58,719 Speaker 2: to make a case for any other kind of it 403 00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:02,360 Speaker 2: is a problem with the actual gi existence of this knowledge, right, 404 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:04,959 Speaker 2: It's this like forbidden knowledge that no one should know 405 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:09,639 Speaker 2: that thirty seven percent of men in the nineteen forties 406 00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:13,680 Speaker 2: like got a handy, you know exactly. 407 00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:18,840 Speaker 3: The weird thing is that our collections are literally open 408 00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:21,639 Speaker 3: to anyone who wants to come. We don't need to 409 00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:26,200 Speaker 3: test it in any way. Well, yeah, that happens often, 410 00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:33,200 Speaker 3: which to me is great and is kind of hard 411 00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:38,040 Speaker 3: to come across in any archive. Usually, if you have 412 00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:41,439 Speaker 3: an archive, like you need to have an affiliation with 413 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:45,320 Speaker 3: a university or a company in order to come and 414 00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:48,000 Speaker 3: look at some of these things. Yeah, you know, I 415 00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:50,040 Speaker 3: mean that's not to say that like anyone comes in 416 00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:54,680 Speaker 3: and they are doing lude things like there we talk 417 00:25:54,760 --> 00:26:00,960 Speaker 3: with everyone that comes in, right, there's there's no mystery happening. 418 00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:06,200 Speaker 3: Really okay, there's no sex dungeon. I was a little 419 00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:11,040 Speaker 3: I think, yeah, it's really boring. It's just a beige 420 00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:13,119 Speaker 3: hallway for the most part. 421 00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:15,679 Speaker 2: But you know what isn't boring that I have to 422 00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:22,160 Speaker 2: interject quickly is supporting by like I'm never bored while 423 00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:26,080 Speaker 2: I'm in the process of exchanging little pictures of dead 424 00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:30,880 Speaker 2: people for products and services like the ones that support 425 00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:44,160 Speaker 2: this podcast. And we're back, and I feel really guilty 426 00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:46,159 Speaker 2: for literally cutting you off mid sentence in order to 427 00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:49,040 Speaker 2: do that. I'm so sorry. 428 00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:51,679 Speaker 3: It's weird to be on the other side of this 429 00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:58,120 Speaker 3: to actually see do that. Yeah, one of the big 430 00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:02,040 Speaker 3: things that happened when I first started was Bloomington has 431 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:05,040 Speaker 3: a big pride. Bloomington as a whole is what they 432 00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:08,080 Speaker 3: call like a blue pocket and the rest of the 433 00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:10,840 Speaker 3: red the sea of red of Indiana. But I've also 434 00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:14,240 Speaker 3: heard people say, like, you know, like Indiana went to 435 00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:20,399 Speaker 3: Obama in two thousand and eight, like it's not as 436 00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:21,600 Speaker 3: red as. 437 00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:22,560 Speaker 4: People really think it is. 438 00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:25,159 Speaker 3: Right, it's that like it just came out today that 439 00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:27,200 Speaker 3: we're like the fiftieth in voter turnout. 440 00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:31,760 Speaker 2: WHOA, that's bad. That's really sad. 441 00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:37,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, but people are so disheartened, Like it feels it's 442 00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:43,000 Speaker 3: really hard when these people are yelling about how conservative 443 00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:46,960 Speaker 3: Indiana is constantly that it gets in everyone's head that, oh, 444 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:51,880 Speaker 3: it doesn't matter that what I do, which I love hate. Yeah, 445 00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:55,159 Speaker 3: I have a love hate relationship with voting, but I 446 00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:58,600 Speaker 3: also understand that, like I kind of need to in 447 00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:03,600 Speaker 3: this capacity of where I am right because it really 448 00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:04,640 Speaker 3: can change on a dime. 449 00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:05,440 Speaker 1: Right. 450 00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:10,360 Speaker 3: I think my my personal representative, he was elected by 451 00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:14,520 Speaker 3: like eleven votes, and he is a horrible, horrible man. 452 00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:15,440 Speaker 2: Yeah. 453 00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:20,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, And I when I get his fucking mailers that 454 00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:23,399 Speaker 3: just say some dumb shit about trans laws, and I 455 00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:24,760 Speaker 3: just go, I can't with this. 456 00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:30,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, I get pissed because cowboy hat and his mailers. 457 00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:35,160 Speaker 4: No, but he looks Okay, ye, that makes sense. 458 00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:39,160 Speaker 2: There's no cowboys where I live. It's the mountains. Take 459 00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:41,920 Speaker 2: off the cowboy hat and put on a real tree 460 00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:45,800 Speaker 2: baseball cap like everyone else in this town. Poser Okay, 461 00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:47,240 Speaker 2: sorry anyway, uh huh. 462 00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:49,960 Speaker 3: So a lot of what's going on is that people 463 00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:53,080 Speaker 3: think that Indiana is super right wing. And as someone 464 00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:57,840 Speaker 3: who's who came here from the East Coast, like, I 465 00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:02,440 Speaker 3: love it here, Like it's really beauty full in Indiana. Yeah, 466 00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:06,680 Speaker 3: I like not being around a lot of people. Bloomington 467 00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:08,680 Speaker 3: says that there it's a really small town, but it 468 00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:11,520 Speaker 3: really is like eighty thousand people when the students aren't here, 469 00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:12,720 Speaker 3: which is still. 470 00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:13,719 Speaker 4: To me a lot of people. 471 00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:17,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, but it is small. 472 00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:21,680 Speaker 3: Comparatively to anywhere on the East Coast, right. But everyone 473 00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:24,640 Speaker 3: I've met here, I will say, there's great organizers that 474 00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:25,200 Speaker 3: live here. 475 00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:27,200 Speaker 4: There's a great. 476 00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:31,960 Speaker 3: Amount of community and just like building of coalitions between 477 00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:38,280 Speaker 3: people that I haven't really seen elsewhere, Okay, which is 478 00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:43,200 Speaker 3: really important. And it's not just through the university, which 479 00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:45,560 Speaker 3: I think is most people will think it's all here, 480 00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:48,840 Speaker 3: But there's so many people outside of the university that 481 00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:52,880 Speaker 3: do amazing work that maybe came here to go to 482 00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:57,040 Speaker 3: school but ended up staying, or just came here because 483 00:29:57,280 --> 00:29:59,360 Speaker 3: this used to be like the folk punk capital. 484 00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:03,360 Speaker 2: That's true. That is whatever when I was going to Bloomington, 485 00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:05,480 Speaker 2: that is what everyone asked. No one asked me about 486 00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:10,280 Speaker 2: the Kinsey Institute everyone asked me about folk punk. Yeah, 487 00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:15,080 Speaker 2: my interests align more to the Kinsey Institute person. No 488 00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:17,760 Speaker 2: one get mad at me. Well, okay, so it's interesting. 489 00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:21,440 Speaker 2: So in my mind, you're like, oh, okay, the right 490 00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:24,000 Speaker 2: wing came for the kinsianstudent and they just failed, right, 491 00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:26,960 Speaker 2: And is that missing the fact that you had a 492 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:29,480 Speaker 2: lot of organizers and a lot of people working to 493 00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:31,800 Speaker 2: defend the Kinsey Institute. 494 00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:35,600 Speaker 3: I think so I wouldn't even say that it was 495 00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:41,440 Speaker 3: a failure. It was more of they really don't understand 496 00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:45,880 Speaker 3: what we do and even how these institutions work. I 497 00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:48,560 Speaker 3: think is the real thing is that they are so 498 00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:54,840 Speaker 3: cut up in how things should work. They don't actually 499 00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:59,600 Speaker 3: look into how like neoliberalism is everywhere and it is. 500 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:02,920 Speaker 3: I don't think they understand what that is and how 501 00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:08,760 Speaker 3: much it's infected, how bureaucratic everything is, and how everything 502 00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:11,480 Speaker 3: is interconnected constantly. 503 00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:13,840 Speaker 2: So that's why they thought tax money would be the thing, 504 00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:17,240 Speaker 2: But it's actually this complicated capitalist system. 505 00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:22,400 Speaker 3: Yes, I mean, maybe if they listen to some other 506 00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:26,240 Speaker 3: people and they're about capitalism, they would probably get more, 507 00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:30,880 Speaker 3: you know, more people to come behind them. But for 508 00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:33,760 Speaker 3: the most part, the folks who are are loud and. 509 00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:34,480 Speaker 4: Proud about that. 510 00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:39,080 Speaker 3: They they don't know what we do. They don't know 511 00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:41,440 Speaker 3: who we are either. They think they do. 512 00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:43,440 Speaker 2: Good since they're trying to murder you. 513 00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:48,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, the director got docked the first year I was here. 514 00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:52,160 Speaker 3: That was fun, and there was a protest with some 515 00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:56,600 Speaker 3: three percenters on campus. And we work very closely with 516 00:31:56,600 --> 00:32:00,520 Speaker 3: Bloomington Pridle out of the time, and so there's always 517 00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:02,960 Speaker 3: the worry of people showing up there. 518 00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:04,080 Speaker 2: Yeah. 519 00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:06,760 Speaker 3: But again, like I said, like everyone here is there's 520 00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:10,720 Speaker 3: so many good organizers that they've kept this town safe 521 00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:15,560 Speaker 3: for so long, and I think they'll continue to do that. 522 00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:19,040 Speaker 2: That's cool. I like when we learn and when we 523 00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:21,560 Speaker 2: reinforce the fact that the thing that keeps us safe 524 00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:25,120 Speaker 2: is organizing and is like community organizing and getting people 525 00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:29,480 Speaker 2: together to keep track of what's going on and counter it. 526 00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:31,080 Speaker 4: Yeah. 527 00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:34,200 Speaker 3: One of the big things that we focus on in 528 00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:37,160 Speaker 3: terms of like our research goals is well being. 529 00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:40,000 Speaker 4: And that's always something that has stuck with me. 530 00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:45,000 Speaker 3: Because to me, the well being is us keeping each 531 00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:48,720 Speaker 3: other safe. And I remember when this all first happened. 532 00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:50,760 Speaker 3: I remember talking to the director and just being like, 533 00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:53,080 Speaker 3: those people aren't going to help us. 534 00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:54,240 Speaker 4: We are going to help each other. 535 00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:56,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like, oh, yeah, you're right. 536 00:32:56,280 --> 00:32:56,640 Speaker 4: We are. 537 00:32:57,280 --> 00:33:00,360 Speaker 3: It's like, yeah, we're not, Like we kind of can't 538 00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:06,040 Speaker 3: count on everyone else sometimes these big institutions, because we 539 00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:08,120 Speaker 3: know what we're doing, but they maybe don't know what 540 00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:11,160 Speaker 3: we're doing, and maybe it's time that we just tell 541 00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:12,160 Speaker 3: more people about it. 542 00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:15,920 Speaker 2: I like that. I also like that it specifically points 543 00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:18,320 Speaker 2: out that they did right by hiring a diy punk 544 00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:19,720 Speaker 2: into their institution. 545 00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:22,480 Speaker 3: You know. I yeah, I get a lot of weird 546 00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:27,479 Speaker 3: flat but not being an academic right, But then it 547 00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:30,880 Speaker 3: comes to things like this and it's like, oh, I 548 00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:34,600 Speaker 3: always hear like, well we made their choice, yeah, which 549 00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:38,080 Speaker 3: is it is nice to feel unfortunately in a job. 550 00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:43,440 Speaker 2: Yeah. No, that makes some sense if people want to 551 00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:47,760 Speaker 2: support you all as individuals who are facing this trouble, 552 00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:50,920 Speaker 2: or the Kinsey Institute in general, or even just like, 553 00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:55,200 Speaker 2: if you have advice for people who are stuck engaging 554 00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:57,800 Speaker 2: in the culture war more directly because they don't live 555 00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:00,720 Speaker 2: on the coasts, what would you what would you say? 556 00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:02,040 Speaker 2: How can people support. 557 00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:06,920 Speaker 3: To support each other. We have a nice queer sports 558 00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:10,560 Speaker 3: league here, and I suggest playing kickball with your friends. 559 00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:15,480 Speaker 3: It's been really cool, and also doing a honky tonk night. 560 00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:17,799 Speaker 3: That's our big, our big thing. 561 00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:18,520 Speaker 2: Cool. 562 00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:21,800 Speaker 3: I'm really proud of everyone that has put that stuff 563 00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:26,400 Speaker 3: together because it has created a world that has brings 564 00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:29,080 Speaker 3: people from all different parts together of the town. 565 00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:29,799 Speaker 1: Yeah. 566 00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:32,600 Speaker 3: For the institute, if you want to go to Kinsey 567 00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:36,359 Speaker 3: Institute dot org. That is kind of where you can 568 00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:40,040 Speaker 3: see everything. You can support us by coming and learning 569 00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:45,920 Speaker 3: more about sexual research and your history because it's all 570 00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:50,200 Speaker 3: of our history in terms of learning about how people 571 00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:56,480 Speaker 3: lived and how we have like the most mundane things. Yeah, 572 00:34:56,520 --> 00:34:59,080 Speaker 3: we talked about Hirschfeld earlier. We have a scrap book 573 00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:03,680 Speaker 3: of his and that is like the oldest thing of his. 574 00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:07,320 Speaker 3: That's like his personal item that we have, Yeah, along 575 00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:10,520 Speaker 3: with like published items, but that's like the big thing. 576 00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:14,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, he was almost fifty when he started the institute. 577 00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:16,160 Speaker 2: I think I'm like kind of doing the math in 578 00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:17,880 Speaker 2: my head really quickly because he was born in the 579 00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:24,600 Speaker 2: nineteenth century. Yeah, Okay, Well, thank you so much for 580 00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:26,840 Speaker 2: coming on and talking about this stuff. I'm so glad 581 00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:28,880 Speaker 2: that this didn't you know, when we first talked about this, 582 00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:30,759 Speaker 2: we didn't know which way the vote was going to go. 583 00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:34,440 Speaker 2: I'm glad to do a little bit of a celebratory 584 00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:39,120 Speaker 2: talk about this important institution. And yeah, thank you so much. 585 00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:44,920 Speaker 2: Thank you, And if you want to follow, hear me more. 586 00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:47,320 Speaker 2: I have a different podcast. It's Cool People Did cool stuff, 587 00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:49,640 Speaker 2: and it's also on cool Zone Media, which is the 588 00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:52,960 Speaker 2: thing you're listening to right now. I hope you all 589 00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:55,439 Speaker 2: are doing as well as you can with everything that's 590 00:35:55,480 --> 00:36:00,560 Speaker 2: going on and putting each other back together again. We're 591 00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:02,400 Speaker 2: all no, I'm not even gonna close with a humpty 592 00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:06,600 Speaker 2: dumpty metaphor. I'm just done. 593 00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:11,920 Speaker 1: It could Happen here as a production of cool Zone Media. 594 00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:14,800 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 595 00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:17,960 Speaker 1: coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 596 00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:21,160 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can 597 00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:23,839 Speaker 1: find sources for It could Happen Here, updated monthly at 598 00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:27,160 Speaker 1: coolzonemedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.