1 00:00:06,680 --> 00:00:07,840 Speaker 1: Amy roboc and TJ. 2 00:00:07,960 --> 00:00:14,920 Speaker 2: Holmes present Killer Thriller with your host Elisa Donovan. Hey everyone, 3 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:19,160 Speaker 2: Elisa Donovan here and this is Killer Thriller. Few true 4 00:00:19,160 --> 00:00:22,400 Speaker 2: crime stories have a body count measured in the hundreds 5 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:26,680 Speaker 2: of thousands. Since the mid nineteen nineties, the obioid epidemic 6 00:00:26,720 --> 00:00:30,960 Speaker 2: has devastated families across America, leaving behind one of the 7 00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:35,519 Speaker 2: deadliest public health crises in modern history. At the center 8 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:39,519 Speaker 2: of that story is Purdue Pharma, the Sackler family, and 9 00:00:39,560 --> 00:00:44,240 Speaker 2: the drug oxy Conton. Today, we are joined by Danny Strong, 10 00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:47,920 Speaker 2: the creator, writer, and executive producer of the Emmy winning 11 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:51,559 Speaker 2: eight part series Dope Sic, which explores one of the 12 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:57,200 Speaker 2: most shocking public health disasters in modern history. Danny, Welcome 13 00:00:57,200 --> 00:00:58,080 Speaker 2: to Killer Thriller. 14 00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:00,520 Speaker 1: Thanks for having me. This is so exciting. 15 00:01:00,920 --> 00:01:03,440 Speaker 3: I am so thrilled to see your face. First of all, 16 00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:05,959 Speaker 3: I adore you. 17 00:01:05,880 --> 00:01:10,680 Speaker 2: And I'm so so so just thrilled for all of 18 00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:14,040 Speaker 2: the work that you have been doing. It's just across 19 00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:17,520 Speaker 2: the board, stellar and so important and meaningful. It's like 20 00:01:17,640 --> 00:01:19,920 Speaker 2: all the things that we want to do when we 21 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:21,160 Speaker 2: get involved in this business. 22 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:24,920 Speaker 1: So congrats, well, thank you, thank you so much. And 23 00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:29,160 Speaker 1: it was so wonderful to see you. It's been so long. 24 00:01:29,440 --> 00:01:31,520 Speaker 1: I just think it's so awesome that you have this 25 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:37,039 Speaker 1: killer show unintended bam and and I just kick it 26 00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:39,080 Speaker 1: off with a pun rolled yeah. When I got this, 27 00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:41,200 Speaker 1: When I got when I was reached out to do 28 00:01:41,240 --> 00:01:43,160 Speaker 1: this with you, I'm like, oh my god, yay. 29 00:01:43,640 --> 00:01:46,800 Speaker 2: People don't know that we have a really strong history 30 00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:49,760 Speaker 2: of doing some very important comedic work. 31 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:53,440 Speaker 3: That's right on the mini tube there. Well, actually it's 32 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:55,600 Speaker 3: not was like the normal television at the time. 33 00:01:58,000 --> 00:01:59,720 Speaker 1: So we tell them, or we get a kid, are 34 00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:00,560 Speaker 1: we going to tell them? 35 00:02:00,640 --> 00:02:03,720 Speaker 2: Well, So I did a little TV show of a 36 00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:08,800 Speaker 2: little movie called Clueless, and Danny and I my character Amber, 37 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:13,760 Speaker 2: who was like the potster all the time. Danny's character, 38 00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:16,639 Speaker 2: what was the name was it, Marshall Marshall Marshall right, 39 00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:20,960 Speaker 2: and he was the super smart character who was in 40 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:22,840 Speaker 2: love with cher right. 41 00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:29,239 Speaker 3: And I would try to utilize. 42 00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:32,640 Speaker 2: Marshall for my benefit with the carrot of I'll get 43 00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:34,440 Speaker 2: you closer to share. 44 00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:37,560 Speaker 1: Right, any an episode you were trying to Yeah, you 45 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:39,799 Speaker 1: would use me for your villainy. 46 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:43,440 Speaker 3: Right, But it was so funny, like it was. I 47 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:45,880 Speaker 3: loved it. We were like a like a duo. 48 00:02:46,200 --> 00:02:48,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, it was a super fun together. You know, you 49 00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:51,520 Speaker 1: were always so nice to me, and it was one 50 00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:54,560 Speaker 1: of my jobs as an actor. Oh was it. I 51 00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:57,040 Speaker 1: did know that. Yeah, it was one of the first 52 00:02:57,040 --> 00:02:59,600 Speaker 1: shows I ever did. And so to have one of 53 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:02,160 Speaker 1: the stars of the show, who also starred in the movie, 54 00:03:02,639 --> 00:03:05,680 Speaker 1: just be so lovely to me was very meaningful and 55 00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:09,240 Speaker 1: it was I never forgot that, So a thank you 56 00:03:09,360 --> 00:03:11,680 Speaker 1: for being so sweet to me. And b it was 57 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:13,919 Speaker 1: awesome just working with you on it. I mean, you're 58 00:03:13,919 --> 00:03:16,800 Speaker 1: so talented and hilarious and it was really exciting for 59 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:18,600 Speaker 1: me to get to do all those episodes with you. 60 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:19,959 Speaker 3: Oh, I love it. 61 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:21,920 Speaker 2: It was for me as well when you have somebody 62 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:25,240 Speaker 2: who like knows what they're doing and is invested and 63 00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:28,919 Speaker 2: fun and like curious like it just you made it great. 64 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:30,880 Speaker 1: So it was great for me to thank you. 65 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:34,320 Speaker 2: Hey, and here we are, okay, So we're here to 66 00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:39,000 Speaker 2: talk about Dope Sick, which is simply one of the 67 00:03:39,040 --> 00:03:43,640 Speaker 2: most powerful and beautifully executed series that I've ever seen. 68 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:48,280 Speaker 2: And so before we talk about the actual series, for people, 69 00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:50,880 Speaker 2: you know, most people have heard the word OxyContin and 70 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:55,440 Speaker 2: opioid epidemic, but for the people who don't know much 71 00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:58,560 Speaker 2: about it. How would you explain who the Sacklers are 72 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:01,800 Speaker 2: and how they became him associated with one of the 73 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:04,400 Speaker 2: deadliest public health crises in history. 74 00:04:04,760 --> 00:04:09,400 Speaker 1: Okay, So the Sacklers are a family on the East Coast, 75 00:04:09,480 --> 00:04:13,000 Speaker 1: and there's two different wings of them. There's the Raymond 76 00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:16,000 Speaker 1: Sackler Wing and the Mortimer Sackler Wing. And Raymond and 77 00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:20,400 Speaker 1: Mortimer were brothers and they owned this company called Perdue Pharma. 78 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:24,719 Speaker 1: And Perdue Pharma was a pharmaceutical company and the company 79 00:04:25,320 --> 00:04:31,039 Speaker 1: hit it big with this drug called OxyContin. Before Oxycon, 80 00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:35,120 Speaker 1: they had a drug called MS Conton, which was a painkiller, 81 00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:41,160 Speaker 1: an opiate, and the patent was going to come up, 82 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:43,960 Speaker 1: and so they thought, how can we use this system, 83 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:48,240 Speaker 1: this Conton system, which was a slow release system in 84 00:04:48,320 --> 00:04:51,880 Speaker 1: the body, delayed release system, so the drug could last 85 00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:56,280 Speaker 1: much longer than three hours or four hours, you know, 86 00:04:56,360 --> 00:05:00,560 Speaker 1: and they had marketed the drug is twelve hours. So 87 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:05,080 Speaker 1: so they developed this drug and they claimed that this 88 00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:09,640 Speaker 1: new sort of miracle drug, OxyContin, was a non addictive 89 00:05:09,760 --> 00:05:14,520 Speaker 1: opioid and that less than one percent of people would 90 00:05:14,520 --> 00:05:17,240 Speaker 1: get addicted to it, which was the opposite of the 91 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:20,880 Speaker 1: understanding of opioids for the previous hundred years. So it 92 00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:24,800 Speaker 1: was it was you know, discussed as this massive breakthrough, groundbreaking, 93 00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:29,640 Speaker 1: groundbreaking breakthrough because of the use of the conton system, right. So, 94 00:05:30,640 --> 00:05:33,159 Speaker 1: but what was in fact the case was that that 95 00:05:33,279 --> 00:05:36,360 Speaker 1: was not accurate. It was not true that less than 96 00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:40,400 Speaker 1: one percent of people became addicted. But they had supplied 97 00:05:40,839 --> 00:05:45,400 Speaker 1: all of this data and you know, and tests, and 98 00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:48,840 Speaker 1: there was just so much information that showed that less 99 00:05:48,839 --> 00:05:51,400 Speaker 1: than one percent of people were addicted, that it was 100 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:54,640 Speaker 1: a non addictive opioid. Well it was not true, right, 101 00:05:54,839 --> 00:05:58,080 Speaker 1: So what does that mean. It means that data was falsified. 102 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:04,559 Speaker 1: It meant there was this massive propaganda campaign in order 103 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:08,840 Speaker 1: to make claims that were in fact untrue. And what 104 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:12,360 Speaker 1: happened was was that oxy conton, you know, which came 105 00:06:12,400 --> 00:06:15,559 Speaker 1: on the market in nineteen ninety six, by nineteen ninety nine, 106 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:19,520 Speaker 1: addiction rates in the areas that the drug was being 107 00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:24,360 Speaker 1: first promoted, which were rural areas where people would get 108 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:28,520 Speaker 1: hurt on the job more so minding communities and logging 109 00:06:28,560 --> 00:06:31,240 Speaker 1: communities and farming communities. That's where they were pushing the 110 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:34,919 Speaker 1: drug originally because that's where people would get injuries that 111 00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:39,440 Speaker 1: they needed these kinds of drugs. Addiction rates started blowing up, 112 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:44,279 Speaker 1: and by two thousand and one it was it was 113 00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:48,680 Speaker 1: a national discussion. It became a major national news story 114 00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:52,440 Speaker 1: in two thousand and two thousand and one of you know, 115 00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:55,600 Speaker 1: the devastation that oxy conton was bringing to all these 116 00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:59,760 Speaker 1: communities because it transformed addiction, not just in these communities, 117 00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:04,440 Speaker 1: just started spreading all across the country except in five states. 118 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:10,200 Speaker 1: There were five states that were spared the explosive addiction rates. 119 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:12,560 Speaker 1: Now why were these five states spared. 120 00:07:12,280 --> 00:07:15,080 Speaker 3: That Perhaps they didn't sell the drug there. 121 00:07:15,640 --> 00:07:18,240 Speaker 1: It was much it was it was a much higher 122 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:22,400 Speaker 1: bar to prescribe opioids in those five states. So they 123 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:26,160 Speaker 1: couldn't have this sort of blanket prescribing in these five 124 00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:28,080 Speaker 1: states that they were able to do in the rest 125 00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:31,560 Speaker 1: of the country. And because of that, I believe Purdue 126 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:34,720 Speaker 1: Pharma didn't focus on these states and their rollout in 127 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:38,120 Speaker 1: their marketing campaigns and in their sort of aggressive way 128 00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:41,240 Speaker 1: in which they had these pharmaceutical reps going to doctor 129 00:07:41,280 --> 00:07:44,320 Speaker 1: to doctor to try to push them to prescribe oxycont 130 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:49,520 Speaker 1: So that was in The Sackler family would claim for 131 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:53,240 Speaker 1: years that they were sort of yes, owners of the company, 132 00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:57,360 Speaker 1: but that they were you know, not that involved, that 133 00:07:57,440 --> 00:07:59,560 Speaker 1: other people were actually running the company. And then when 134 00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:02,280 Speaker 1: when and you know, all the lawsuits happened and all 135 00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:05,520 Speaker 1: the investigations happened, and the show Dope Sick covers the 136 00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:10,320 Speaker 1: first major investigation in pharma. It came out that in fact, 137 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:12,760 Speaker 1: that was not true, that they micro manage the company, 138 00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:17,320 Speaker 1: and that Richard Sackler oversaw the company. You know, his 139 00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:21,320 Speaker 1: brother Jonathan Sackler was heavily involved. Kathy Sackler, who was 140 00:08:21,320 --> 00:08:24,360 Speaker 1: in the Mortimer Wing, she was very involved, and that 141 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:27,600 Speaker 1: the entire claim that they were sort of absentee landlords 142 00:08:28,440 --> 00:08:30,840 Speaker 1: of this of this company were untrue. 143 00:08:30,520 --> 00:08:33,160 Speaker 2: Right right, I mean they were going to get into 144 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:38,400 Speaker 2: how just nefarious all of them are, but particularly Richard. 145 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:42,920 Speaker 2: So the series is based on Beth Macy's book also 146 00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:46,160 Speaker 2: called Dope Sick Dealers, Doctors and the Drug Companies, the 147 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:47,920 Speaker 2: drug company that addicted America. 148 00:08:48,400 --> 00:08:49,880 Speaker 3: So there there are. 149 00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:53,360 Speaker 2: Tons of facts and victims and doctors and prosecutors and 150 00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:56,760 Speaker 2: corporate execs in this book. So how did you decide 151 00:08:56,920 --> 00:09:00,480 Speaker 2: which stories would become the backbone of this series? 152 00:09:00,800 --> 00:09:05,240 Speaker 1: So I actually had conceived of the show and sold 153 00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:09,320 Speaker 1: it to a studio twenty studios. Before I even knew 154 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:13,600 Speaker 1: the book Dope Sick existed. I had based all of 155 00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:16,760 Speaker 1: this on There had already been multiple books by that point. 156 00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:19,160 Speaker 1: There's a book called Painkiller that had come out in 157 00:09:19,160 --> 00:09:22,880 Speaker 1: two thousand and two by a New York Times journalist 158 00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:25,079 Speaker 1: who was kind of the one of the first people 159 00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:28,520 Speaker 1: that was all over this story in real time back 160 00:09:28,520 --> 00:09:30,319 Speaker 1: in two thousand and one, two thousand and two, two 161 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:33,240 Speaker 1: thousand and three. So so there had been a number 162 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:36,839 Speaker 1: of books, but there was this huge article that exploded 163 00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:39,120 Speaker 1: the story, and I believe it was two thousand and 164 00:09:40,320 --> 00:09:44,160 Speaker 1: seventeen or eighteen by Patrick raiden Keith and The New Yorker, 165 00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:47,440 Speaker 1: and it was called, I want to say Empire of Pain, 166 00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:49,000 Speaker 1: but that was actually the name of the book that 167 00:09:49,160 --> 00:09:52,400 Speaker 1: was but it was it was this massive story in 168 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:56,079 Speaker 1: The New Yorker that brought a world of paper for 169 00:09:56,200 --> 00:10:01,040 Speaker 1: family and exploded the story into sort of mainstream culture 170 00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:05,200 Speaker 1: and society. And that's kind of what spurred, you know, 171 00:10:05,280 --> 00:10:08,520 Speaker 1: this entire movement. So I had done all this research 172 00:10:08,559 --> 00:10:11,480 Speaker 1: based on all these other sources, had come up with 173 00:10:11,559 --> 00:10:16,079 Speaker 1: the show, and then lo and behold, another division at 174 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:19,800 Speaker 1: Disney who owned twentieth Studios Fox twenty one goes and 175 00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:22,920 Speaker 1: buys the book Dope Sick in a bidding War, not 176 00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:25,440 Speaker 1: knowing that I'd already had a show in development there. 177 00:10:25,960 --> 00:10:28,280 Speaker 1: And then I read about it on Deadline Hollywood. This 178 00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:30,400 Speaker 1: is a little inside Hollywood baseball. So I don't know 179 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:31,720 Speaker 1: if this is you're kidding. 180 00:10:31,520 --> 00:10:32,960 Speaker 3: But I do love that. I was like, Oh, I 181 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:35,360 Speaker 3: read about you know, my job was over in the 182 00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:36,800 Speaker 3: Hollywood Reporter. 183 00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:42,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, what the moment in which I read this. But 184 00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:45,120 Speaker 1: they were actually, so, I'm a writer with a pitch 185 00:10:45,160 --> 00:10:47,800 Speaker 1: ready to go. They have a book they've bought and 186 00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:50,319 Speaker 1: it could take up to a year to find a writer. 187 00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:53,240 Speaker 1: I was way ahead of them, so they asked me 188 00:10:53,240 --> 00:10:57,920 Speaker 1: if I would team up with that project. The book 189 00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:00,839 Speaker 1: covered a lot of what I was up too. There 190 00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:04,040 Speaker 1: definitely was in the book. But there were two factors 191 00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:06,839 Speaker 1: why I agreed to team up. One was I met 192 00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:09,120 Speaker 1: with Beth Beth Macy, and I adored her. I just 193 00:11:09,160 --> 00:11:11,280 Speaker 1: thought she just this wonderful woman. She wanted to be 194 00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:14,640 Speaker 1: heavily involved, and I thought, well, having an expert in 195 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:17,000 Speaker 1: the writer's room that can't be a bad thing. But 196 00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:19,200 Speaker 1: the other factor why I agreed to team up. Was 197 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:23,040 Speaker 1: because of I loved the title dope sick. I thought 198 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:24,080 Speaker 1: that's a great. 199 00:11:24,040 --> 00:11:24,800 Speaker 3: It's very strong. 200 00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:27,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, so that was so that was the genesis. So 201 00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:31,880 Speaker 1: how did I choose the different stories? You know? It was, 202 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:36,000 Speaker 1: I don't I don't know. It's been so it's been 203 00:11:36,080 --> 00:11:39,360 Speaker 1: quite a wild I knew I wanted to have investigations 204 00:11:39,400 --> 00:11:42,600 Speaker 1: as the spine, so that that could make it feel 205 00:11:42,679 --> 00:11:46,000 Speaker 1: like a bit of a thriller, and that these this 206 00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:50,720 Speaker 1: US attorney in Virginia and his two prosecutors they had 207 00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:54,320 Speaker 1: they had brought a made the first major case against 208 00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:57,600 Speaker 1: Purdue Pharma. The US attorney's name was John brownlee uh 209 00:11:57,840 --> 00:12:01,240 Speaker 1: and his prosecutors were Rick Mountcastle and Andy Ramsayer. And 210 00:12:01,280 --> 00:12:03,200 Speaker 1: I thought that what a great way to take us 211 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:07,520 Speaker 1: through the story. Then there was also a d agent 212 00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:12,440 Speaker 1: who also was pursuing Purdue Pharma, you know, in sort 213 00:12:12,440 --> 00:12:15,120 Speaker 1: of a different path, and I thought, well, great, let's 214 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:17,440 Speaker 1: get another investigation in there. How cool was that that, 215 00:12:17,559 --> 00:12:20,280 Speaker 1: you know, to just sit as a thriller, And that's 216 00:12:20,280 --> 00:12:23,040 Speaker 1: in the TV show. That's the resort of Dawson character. Yeah, 217 00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:27,040 Speaker 1: she's a composite character because the actual person that inspired 218 00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:30,360 Speaker 1: it didn't want to participate, so because of that, I 219 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:32,200 Speaker 1: didn't want to use her real name, and so I 220 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:35,360 Speaker 1: created this composite hittor. Then I wanted to just take 221 00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:38,480 Speaker 1: us into Perdue Pharma and show whatever facts that were 222 00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:41,319 Speaker 1: out there of what they had done, because there was 223 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:44,040 Speaker 1: quite a bit of information that had been written about 224 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:47,120 Speaker 1: at that point. So that was the other storyline I 225 00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:49,480 Speaker 1: was really interested in. And then lastly, I thought, well, 226 00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:52,320 Speaker 1: you've got to have the victims. You've got to show 227 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:55,440 Speaker 1: people that were duped by Purdue Pharma so that we're 228 00:12:55,440 --> 00:12:58,520 Speaker 1: given all this false evidence that the drug was non addictive. 229 00:12:58,800 --> 00:13:00,559 Speaker 1: So then I came up with this be able. I'll 230 00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:04,120 Speaker 1: have a doctor, I'll have a patience and will and 231 00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:07,679 Speaker 1: those will be sort of the addiction storylines, right, and 232 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:10,760 Speaker 1: then all of this could kind of interweave and intersect, 233 00:13:11,280 --> 00:13:12,920 Speaker 1: and I thought, well it could work. 234 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:17,240 Speaker 2: It's really brilliantly crafted in that regard because there are 235 00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:20,880 Speaker 2: so many stories going on and the way that they're 236 00:13:20,920 --> 00:13:25,640 Speaker 2: interwoven and set up, especially, you know, let's talk about it. 237 00:13:25,760 --> 00:13:29,560 Speaker 2: First of all, the cast is so terrific just across 238 00:13:29,559 --> 00:13:29,959 Speaker 2: the board. 239 00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:32,800 Speaker 1: Everyone. 240 00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:49,920 Speaker 2: We can start talking about Michael Keaton, his character doctor 241 00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:53,800 Speaker 2: Samuel Finnix. He became the emotional center of the series, 242 00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:58,560 Speaker 2: and the way his storyline is structured is so brilliant, 243 00:13:58,640 --> 00:14:01,800 Speaker 2: And you really get in that first episode how these 244 00:14:02,160 --> 00:14:05,440 Speaker 2: small town doctors really do everything. 245 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:05,920 Speaker 3: For the community. 246 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:09,720 Speaker 2: You know, he's like the GP and and obg y 247 00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:12,760 Speaker 2: N and you know, so they're so kind of beloved 248 00:14:12,840 --> 00:14:18,280 Speaker 2: and trusted, and so that seems to be like, why was. 249 00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:20,880 Speaker 3: That perspective so important to show? 250 00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:25,520 Speaker 1: Well, I'd heard I really wanted to set this and 251 00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:31,280 Speaker 1: rural Appalachia right because that was ground zero for their 252 00:14:31,320 --> 00:14:34,720 Speaker 1: marketing tactics, as I said before, because these were communities 253 00:14:34,760 --> 00:14:38,760 Speaker 1: where people got injured working right right, So, and it 254 00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:41,040 Speaker 1: was it was sort of the start of the crime. 255 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:42,440 Speaker 1: You know, if you got a crime story, this is 256 00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:45,640 Speaker 1: where the crime began. But I had read about and 257 00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:49,720 Speaker 1: a friend of mine had told me about a doctor 258 00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:51,600 Speaker 1: and then there and I got and I heard this 259 00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:56,280 Speaker 1: story a few times of doctors that had gotten addicted 260 00:14:56,320 --> 00:15:01,880 Speaker 1: on oxycon, and one doctor and particular, he'd gotten addicted, 261 00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:06,240 Speaker 1: and then he addicted his patients thinking he was helping them. 262 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:11,080 Speaker 1: Then he gets addicted himself and he loses everything, and 263 00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:14,480 Speaker 1: then he gets his his license back and he's so 264 00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:18,720 Speaker 1: filled with Shane. He returns home to try to unhook people, 265 00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:21,440 Speaker 1: to try to to try to undo the damage he 266 00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:23,040 Speaker 1: had done. I thought that was so beautiful. I was 267 00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:27,680 Speaker 1: so moved by that. It's beautiful, what a great character. 268 00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:28,040 Speaker 2: You know. 269 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:30,960 Speaker 3: So that was a real person, that whole It was. 270 00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:33,360 Speaker 1: Multiple people, is multiple, right, yea, yeah, there were a 271 00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:36,800 Speaker 1: few people that that had done and then one of 272 00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:41,440 Speaker 1: them I interviewed and he gave me incredible material that 273 00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:45,480 Speaker 1: I put right into the show. You know, it's so beautiful. Yeah, 274 00:15:45,520 --> 00:15:49,840 Speaker 1: that part, yeah, it really is. It really is very moving. 275 00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:51,960 Speaker 1: And then I thought, well, then I'll give him a 276 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:54,960 Speaker 1: patient that he's very close to that he gets addicted. 277 00:15:56,040 --> 00:15:58,680 Speaker 1: And I thought by doing that, I could show sort 278 00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:02,400 Speaker 1: of addiction too, on two different journeys of addiction, you know, 279 00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:06,600 Speaker 1: a journey in which he, as a doctor, is privy 280 00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:11,040 Speaker 1: to sort of more help than she's privy too. Right. 281 00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:14,480 Speaker 1: But but but even the help he's privy to it, 282 00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:18,720 Speaker 1: it doesn't help, because it's the nature of opioid addiction, right. 283 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:22,840 Speaker 1: So it was it was able to tell addiction stories. 284 00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:26,640 Speaker 1: And in the research, there were so many stories of 285 00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:29,880 Speaker 1: addiction and they seem to overlap. There were sort of 286 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:34,000 Speaker 1: common journeys that people went on, and I wanted to 287 00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:36,600 Speaker 1: I wanted to sort of pay tribute to that and 288 00:16:37,760 --> 00:16:43,160 Speaker 1: explore it and show it. But also I had my 289 00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:46,320 Speaker 1: understanding of addiction was I think similar to a lot 290 00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:49,200 Speaker 1: of the audience, which was thinking it was a moral 291 00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:52,360 Speaker 1: failure on these people's parts that they just want to 292 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:55,600 Speaker 1: get high, you know, these drugs want to get high. 293 00:16:55,720 --> 00:16:59,840 Speaker 1: What I didn't understand, in which I was blown away, fascinated, 294 00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:05,359 Speaker 1: like very passionate about dramatizing, was that it was that 295 00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:08,919 Speaker 1: in an opioid addiction, it rewires your brain, and it 296 00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:14,280 Speaker 1: rewires it very quickly. Could be in three days, you know, 297 00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:17,960 Speaker 1: but in a few weeks your brain is rewired so 298 00:17:18,040 --> 00:17:21,400 Speaker 1: that if you do not get this drug, you are 299 00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:25,040 Speaker 1: in so much pain you think you're gonna die. And 300 00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:27,359 Speaker 1: that's what being dope sick is, That's what That's what 301 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:32,560 Speaker 1: dope sick means. That pain, that fear of not being 302 00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:34,880 Speaker 1: able to get the drug, and you will turn your 303 00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:38,959 Speaker 1: back on everything in your life, your family, your kids, 304 00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:42,320 Speaker 1: your job, everything in your life to not be dope sick. 305 00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:46,119 Speaker 1: So I just thought, I, you know, I didn't know 306 00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:48,560 Speaker 1: that you know, and I thought, wow, here's something I 307 00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:51,960 Speaker 1: did not know, and I want to share that with 308 00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:54,240 Speaker 1: with with as many people as I can. So that 309 00:17:54,359 --> 00:17:57,520 Speaker 1: was one of the missions of the show, was was 310 00:17:57,520 --> 00:18:00,840 Speaker 1: was bringing this new understanding of addiction. And you know, 311 00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:04,000 Speaker 1: there were people that watched the show that were had 312 00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:07,360 Speaker 1: gone through it, that didn't know it themselves. 313 00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:09,119 Speaker 3: Right, didn't understand what was happening to and that's. 314 00:18:09,119 --> 00:18:11,920 Speaker 1: What happened to them, and thought that the moral failing 315 00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:15,040 Speaker 1: was theirs, you know, that they were losers, that they 316 00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:17,960 Speaker 1: were addicts, that they you know, and that the show, 317 00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:21,399 Speaker 1: the show brought to them the same thing that it 318 00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:24,159 Speaker 1: brought to me in that research, which was no, they 319 00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:28,439 Speaker 1: were victims. They were victims of the manipulative, you know, 320 00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:31,840 Speaker 1: campaign of deception that they were being given a drug 321 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:34,480 Speaker 1: that was safe that was in fact not safe. 322 00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:37,960 Speaker 3: I mean, it's diabolical what it is diaby people did. 323 00:18:38,119 --> 00:18:43,440 Speaker 2: It's it's just unfathomable and it's I really love the 324 00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:48,640 Speaker 2: culmination of Michael Keaton's character of his story when he 325 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:51,520 Speaker 2: does go back to the tech or and sort of 326 00:18:51,560 --> 00:18:54,520 Speaker 2: And I also thought there are so many nuanced details 327 00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:58,280 Speaker 2: that I think are so just telling and beautiful and 328 00:18:58,920 --> 00:19:01,880 Speaker 2: this like where that I have heard from other people 329 00:19:02,119 --> 00:19:05,040 Speaker 2: regarding addiction or being you know, that the sort of 330 00:19:05,119 --> 00:19:06,040 Speaker 2: path they have to take. 331 00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:08,960 Speaker 3: And one him saying well, I can't. 332 00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:10,720 Speaker 2: Like he didn't go back to the town to live 333 00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:14,399 Speaker 2: there because he felt like I can't live there, but 334 00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:16,040 Speaker 2: I need to help these people. 335 00:19:16,119 --> 00:19:19,960 Speaker 3: And it was like this sort of omage to that town. 336 00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:24,280 Speaker 2: But then also when he speaks to the to the 337 00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:27,120 Speaker 2: the nun and the therapy that he does, and this 338 00:19:27,119 --> 00:19:31,159 Speaker 2: this piece of she keeps, she says to him, tell me, 339 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:33,960 Speaker 2: like I know about your shame or I'm paraphrasing, but 340 00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:35,640 Speaker 2: you know, like I know about your shame and all 341 00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:38,280 Speaker 2: the bad things you've done. I want to know, Like 342 00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:42,040 Speaker 2: tell me about those babies that you birthed. Tell me 343 00:19:42,119 --> 00:19:44,840 Speaker 2: about like, like I get emotional thinking about it. It's 344 00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:48,520 Speaker 2: like that's what people need to remember their value and 345 00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:52,360 Speaker 2: remember like the beautiful things that he's capable of doing 346 00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:54,680 Speaker 2: so that you can continue to live. 347 00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:58,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's a real woman, by the way, because 348 00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:01,800 Speaker 1: it is. Yeah, And I interviewed her and it was 349 00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:04,639 Speaker 1: it was wonderful, you know, the interview and the doctor 350 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:07,600 Speaker 1: as well. His doctor was a real person. And I 351 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:11,800 Speaker 1: interviewed him, and so those scenes with the two of them, 352 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:15,639 Speaker 1: they're they're you know, completely just based on fact, on 353 00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:18,919 Speaker 1: the treatment they actually did, on how they dealt with 354 00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:23,320 Speaker 1: these people and how they dealt with addiction issues in Appalachia. Uh, 355 00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:25,800 Speaker 1: they're real heroes to me. I just think I'm just 356 00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:29,639 Speaker 1: sort of blown away by by what they Yeah, I 357 00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:34,760 Speaker 1: remember shooting those scenes, and Michael Keaton was just he 358 00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:35,920 Speaker 1: was unbelievable. 359 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:36,119 Speaker 2: You know. 360 00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:41,480 Speaker 1: In this one take he stopped talking and just started 361 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:46,080 Speaker 1: crying and it was just, you know, I'm getting emotional 362 00:20:46,119 --> 00:20:48,600 Speaker 1: thinking about it, and it was just and then I 363 00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:51,480 Speaker 1: just couldn't believe it. And then and it's in the show. 364 00:20:51,560 --> 00:20:53,160 Speaker 1: I mean, that take is in the show, you know. 365 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:53,840 Speaker 3: I remember it. 366 00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:11,879 Speaker 2: The performances in this are so deep and so and 367 00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:15,440 Speaker 2: it's you know, a testament to how well it's crafted 368 00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:17,760 Speaker 2: and written and directed and all of it. 369 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:20,400 Speaker 3: But it's like you really feel the soul of all 370 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:25,240 Speaker 3: of these people, and it just is it's amazing. And Michael, 371 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:27,560 Speaker 3: you know, he won the. 372 00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:31,600 Speaker 2: Emmy, the Golden Globe, every Screen Actors Guild, he won 373 00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:35,000 Speaker 2: all of them, like everyone. 374 00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:37,920 Speaker 1: You know, it's and so many people were nominated for 375 00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:40,600 Speaker 1: so many awards, from the show. You know, I think 376 00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:43,639 Speaker 1: Caitlyn Deaver's performance is so special in it. 377 00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:46,520 Speaker 2: We got to talk about her, Like, hold it, we 378 00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:49,360 Speaker 2: have to talk about Kaitlyn Deaver. Yeah. First of all, 379 00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:52,840 Speaker 2: she should be in every TV movie, anything going forward 380 00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:55,000 Speaker 2: to the end of time. Everyone, she should be in 381 00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:59,040 Speaker 2: all of them. Yeah, And I just am blown away 382 00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:04,480 Speaker 2: by her that her work in this is so painful 383 00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:08,560 Speaker 2: and beautiful and nuanced. It's like she's it's just on 384 00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:10,159 Speaker 2: another level. 385 00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:13,560 Speaker 1: He's a genius. We called her a little Mayroll on set, yes, 386 00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:17,040 Speaker 1: because she just everyone was just in awe of her. 387 00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:19,639 Speaker 1: And I remember the actor to play her, dad, Ray 388 00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:23,800 Speaker 1: McKinnon is. He's an incredible actor and a director and 389 00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:26,560 Speaker 1: a writer. He's a very talented person. And he turned 390 00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:27,760 Speaker 1: to me one day and he said, I'm sick of 391 00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:30,040 Speaker 1: getting my ass kicked by this twenty five year old 392 00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:34,880 Speaker 1: would just show up and she would do these unbelievable 393 00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:38,320 Speaker 1: scenes give it take. You know. There was one day 394 00:22:38,359 --> 00:22:40,359 Speaker 1: where we had a scene where she has her major 395 00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:44,280 Speaker 1: breakdown scene with her parents and it's you know, and 396 00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:47,399 Speaker 1: it's you know, She's storms through the whole house and 397 00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:50,920 Speaker 1: she's basically destroying the house because they throw her pills away, 398 00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:54,919 Speaker 1: and we'd set aside hours for it because it was 399 00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:57,680 Speaker 1: so complicated and so emotional for her. She did it 400 00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:02,240 Speaker 1: in one take, the first take, and you know, Patricia 401 00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:05,280 Speaker 1: Riggan is a wonderful director, directed that episode, and she 402 00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:07,800 Speaker 1: just looked at me and she was like, well, She's like, 403 00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:10,719 Speaker 1: you know, what else are we supposed to do. I'm like, well, 404 00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:13,160 Speaker 1: let's just do it again, but you know, we don't 405 00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:16,720 Speaker 1: like we have it, and I think maybe we did 406 00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:20,520 Speaker 1: three takes total because it was just so hard on 407 00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:23,800 Speaker 1: although she probably could have done it twenty times. It 408 00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:25,960 Speaker 1: was just so emotional, but we just had it every 409 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:29,919 Speaker 1: single take and then we had hours to go to 410 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:34,960 Speaker 1: other stuff because she just crushed everything. And by the way, 411 00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:36,720 Speaker 1: the sweetest person ever too. 412 00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:39,440 Speaker 3: You know, I love hearing this person. 413 00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:42,399 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, so I'm just in I was so in 414 00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:43,760 Speaker 1: awe of Caitlin. 415 00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:45,879 Speaker 2: I read that you said something about this that that 416 00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:49,080 Speaker 2: character has to die, like she can't make it, did 417 00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:50,960 Speaker 2: you say? And it's one of those things where as 418 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:52,120 Speaker 2: a viewer you're like. 419 00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:54,040 Speaker 3: No, no, no, no, no, no no no no, Like. 420 00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:59,879 Speaker 2: You really want her so desperately to survive, but you 421 00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:01,720 Speaker 2: kind of know that she's. 422 00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:04,399 Speaker 1: I felt that it would have been false to the 423 00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:07,680 Speaker 1: crisis and to the victims to have her survive, and 424 00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:10,120 Speaker 1: you know, he survives, you know, Michael keytes things right, 425 00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:14,000 Speaker 1: so you have two different journeys. And I remember there 426 00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:18,560 Speaker 1: was a studio executive, very thing level who called me 427 00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:21,200 Speaker 1: and he said, I really don't want her to die, 428 00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:25,640 Speaker 1: and like none of us do, but yeah, why said 429 00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:28,320 Speaker 1: she has to? And he said why and I said, 430 00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:31,680 Speaker 1: because the whole shows a lie if she if she survives, 431 00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:33,600 Speaker 1: And then I said, and it's a limited series. It's 432 00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:35,240 Speaker 1: not like we need her to come back for season two. 433 00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:38,240 Speaker 1: So what's the problem right now? I mean, and it 434 00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:40,119 Speaker 1: was this second, it was at the end of the 435 00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:42,760 Speaker 1: second to last episode. I just thought, I just thought, 436 00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:45,359 Speaker 1: you know, like, I don't think people are going to 437 00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:47,480 Speaker 1: tune out if they've made it through seven episodes, because 438 00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:49,880 Speaker 1: she died at the end of the the seventh episode, right, 439 00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:52,120 Speaker 1: But it felt to me like it just would be 440 00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:52,920 Speaker 1: so false. 441 00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:59,600 Speaker 2: And it also helps propel Michael Keaton's character forward, because 442 00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:03,359 Speaker 2: that loss for him is so deep and you feel 443 00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:08,200 Speaker 2: so much responsibility for that, and it's so it's gut 444 00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:12,600 Speaker 2: wrenching with the parents and then how they treat his character, 445 00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:13,879 Speaker 2: and you know you can't. 446 00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:15,680 Speaker 3: He's he's trying to sort of. 447 00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:19,560 Speaker 2: Make amends and give his apologies and he has to 448 00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:20,159 Speaker 2: accept that. 449 00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:22,600 Speaker 3: Some sometimes we don't get that. 450 00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:27,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no, it's a I think I remember that 451 00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:30,639 Speaker 1: scene when we because I directed that episode, the scene 452 00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:33,800 Speaker 1: with when he goes back to her parents and you know, 453 00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:37,480 Speaker 1: Mayor Winningham and Ray Monckinnon, Michael Keaton. I mean what 454 00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:42,240 Speaker 1: I know, I know big I did good on the casting, 455 00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:46,600 Speaker 1: you did you get they were just everyone was just 456 00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:50,119 Speaker 1: you know, and we when we offered it to Michael Keaton, 457 00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:53,520 Speaker 1: we no one really thought he would do it because 458 00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:57,320 Speaker 1: A he's notoriously very difficult to land as an actor. 459 00:25:57,760 --> 00:25:59,720 Speaker 1: Everyone loves him and wants him, and he does He 460 00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:03,119 Speaker 1: just note everything. And it wasn't a lead role. It 461 00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:06,600 Speaker 1: was an ensemble so it just seemed like a real stretch. 462 00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:10,199 Speaker 1: But we hadn't made an offer to anyone yet, so 463 00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:13,639 Speaker 1: I thought, well, let's just try. You know. It's so 464 00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:16,399 Speaker 1: if he says no, you know, and you get nervous. 465 00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:19,240 Speaker 1: You don't want to rack up too many passes. You 466 00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:21,960 Speaker 1: start to think, oh, it's going to make this the network. 467 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:24,680 Speaker 1: Nervous and people are going to get nervous that don't 468 00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:26,080 Speaker 1: want to do the show, and maybe I want to 469 00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:29,320 Speaker 1: be the show. But we hadn't done anyone yet, so 470 00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:31,600 Speaker 1: I thought, I thought, okay, I've got you know, my 471 00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:34,320 Speaker 1: pie in the sky choice is Michael Keaton. Why don't 472 00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:38,400 Speaker 1: we just try? And then he said yes. Once Michael said, 473 00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:43,120 Speaker 1: it became this really hot project in Hollywood and everyone 474 00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:45,400 Speaker 1: wanted to do it. To do it, yeah, they wanted 475 00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:48,800 Speaker 1: to destroy the opioid crisis with Michael Keaton he loved 476 00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:51,800 Speaker 1: in Hollywood. And Barry Levinson was directing the pilot. I 477 00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:55,159 Speaker 1: mean it was yeah, and Perry was amazing, you know, 478 00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:56,879 Speaker 1: to get to work with him, and Verry such a 479 00:26:56,920 --> 00:26:59,520 Speaker 1: hero mine and Michael there to hear of the mind, 480 00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:03,240 Speaker 1: you know. So it was, uh, it was, It really came. 481 00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:08,160 Speaker 1: So we kind of had our choice of actors after that. Yeah, 482 00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:10,280 Speaker 1: And so that's how we were able to put together 483 00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:11,800 Speaker 1: this just incredible cast. 484 00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:17,480 Speaker 2: Everybody is is wonderful, including Will Palter, who plays Billy Cutler. 485 00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:21,639 Speaker 2: He's a sales rep who kind of gains a conscience 486 00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:26,240 Speaker 2: over time and finally leaves Purdue Pharma and helps the prosecutors. 487 00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:29,080 Speaker 3: How much of it is his story based on a 488 00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:29,840 Speaker 3: real person. 489 00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:36,439 Speaker 1: Well he's a composite character, but absolutely based on you know, 490 00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:42,160 Speaker 1: a few people, but one in particular, I interviewed a 491 00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:45,400 Speaker 1: former farmer rep And and he gave me some incredible 492 00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:48,840 Speaker 1: material and anecdotes and the guilty felt and sort of 493 00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:53,120 Speaker 1: the turn he he took, you know, I did take 494 00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:56,280 Speaker 1: a number of and he was a farmer for Purdue Pharma, 495 00:27:56,359 --> 00:27:58,600 Speaker 1: so it was I mean, I got, you know, the 496 00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:02,720 Speaker 1: real deal kind of you know, story from from him. 497 00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:05,640 Speaker 1: So but but there were other anecdotes. You know, when 498 00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:07,680 Speaker 1: you've got this many sources. There's been so many books 499 00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:12,440 Speaker 1: written about this, right, and they're they're all great s, 500 00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:16,840 Speaker 1: all these incredible books you know, on it. And and 501 00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:19,120 Speaker 1: then I brought on some of the people that wrote 502 00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:21,359 Speaker 1: the books as consultants on it. So I just have 503 00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:26,040 Speaker 1: this massive wealth of information of them. But Will Poulter 504 00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:29,240 Speaker 1: is fascinating because he was the kid and were the 505 00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:34,440 Speaker 1: Millers right kind of they And then I saw him 506 00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:37,480 Speaker 1: in a movie called Detroit, in which he was this 507 00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:43,440 Speaker 1: villain cop in Detroit, and he's so incredible in Detroit. 508 00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:46,320 Speaker 1: And I went home and I immediately I am to 509 00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:48,920 Speaker 1: beat him. Some who is this guy? And it was 510 00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:51,680 Speaker 1: he was the Nerd and were the Millers, and I thought, 511 00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:53,479 Speaker 1: oh my god, this guy's Daniel day Lewis. 512 00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:53,880 Speaker 2: Right. 513 00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:59,000 Speaker 1: The diverge between those two performances was so staggering. So 514 00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:01,600 Speaker 1: then you know, a fewyears later when we were casting this, 515 00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:04,960 Speaker 1: and you know, we had this incredible casting director, Avi Kaufman, 516 00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:09,000 Speaker 1: and she sits together, right, and she sends, you know, 517 00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:10,960 Speaker 1: and I see Will Folter's name on the I'm like, 518 00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:13,640 Speaker 1: Will Wolter, Daniel day Lewis. 519 00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:16,720 Speaker 3: And he's got Meryl and Daniel d Lewis. 520 00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:21,880 Speaker 1: Daniel d Lewis. Yeah, yeah, so and by the way, 521 00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:24,200 Speaker 1: another just lovely guy, total gentleman. 522 00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:27,640 Speaker 2: You know, it's so interesting when you I mean, I'm 523 00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:29,560 Speaker 2: not surprised to hear this about all these people, but 524 00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:32,560 Speaker 2: I'm very thrilled to hear it because there is something 525 00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:36,600 Speaker 2: you can you know, when magic happens, which doesn't happen 526 00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:39,320 Speaker 2: all the time, but I feel like it did with 527 00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:45,000 Speaker 2: this show. It is like every piece has to fit, 528 00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:47,400 Speaker 2: you know, and so much of that has to do 529 00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:52,360 Speaker 2: with personalities and you know, work ethic and all that 530 00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:55,959 Speaker 2: kind of thing, and it feels very cohesive, you know, 531 00:29:56,120 --> 00:30:00,000 Speaker 2: it feels like everyone's on the same ride, and it's 532 00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:01,640 Speaker 2: it's just really strong. 533 00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:03,960 Speaker 1: I've worked on a lot of different types of projects 534 00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:05,920 Speaker 1: over the years, as you know, as a writer and 535 00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:10,640 Speaker 1: director and as an actor, and I find that when 536 00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:15,600 Speaker 1: I've done these kind of prestige prestige sort of muckbreaking 537 00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:22,479 Speaker 1: projects that everyone on set is very excited to be there, 538 00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:24,840 Speaker 1: very excited to be part of something that's sort of 539 00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:28,520 Speaker 1: saying something and they could have impact, and the behavior 540 00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:32,400 Speaker 1: is usually pretty great, you know, you know some of 541 00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:34,960 Speaker 1: the some of the negative behavior I've seen on sets, 542 00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:36,600 Speaker 1: which by the way, isn't a lot. It's not as 543 00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:39,040 Speaker 1: if it's on every set I've ever been on. There's 544 00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:42,120 Speaker 1: been you know, just Deevin nightmares. It hasn't really been 545 00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:45,840 Speaker 1: a case, but it's sort of I don't see any 546 00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:48,560 Speaker 1: of that on on these types of projects. You know, 547 00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:51,520 Speaker 1: it's sort of it's a different mindset with a cast 548 00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:53,240 Speaker 1: and the crew, or like we're all in this together 549 00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:54,840 Speaker 1: to to and. 550 00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:58,440 Speaker 2: There's a bigger purpose, right, yeah, make a bigger purpose. Yeah, 551 00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:00,840 Speaker 2: it feels very much that way. We are going to 552 00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:03,520 Speaker 2: leave it there for today, but next time we'll take 553 00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:06,840 Speaker 2: a closer look at Purdue pharma, the Sackler family, and 554 00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:09,640 Speaker 2: how a prescription drug became the center of one of 555 00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:14,400 Speaker 2: the deadliest public health disasters in American history.