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Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet, as a production

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Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridgett and this is

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Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to There Are No.

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Speaker 1: Girls on the Internet, where we explore the intersection of

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Speaker 1: social media, technology and identity. And this episode is a

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Speaker 1: special report. You know how back in the day they

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Speaker 1: would do those like special report, special report. This is

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Speaker 1: a special report on Kate Middleton. Mike, thank you for

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Speaker 1: being here. Have you been following what is happening with

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Speaker 1: Kate Middleton?

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Speaker 3: I wasn't at all, and then all of a sudden,

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Speaker 3: I was like seeing it everywhere.

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Speaker 4: Uh yeah, what's what's going on?

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Speaker 1: Bridget So I feel the exact same way, like I'm

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Speaker 1: not a Royals person, you know, It's not a cultural

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Speaker 1: thing that I follow closely really at all. But I

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Speaker 1: feel like I woke up last week and it's all

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Speaker 1: An He's talking about. I was getting group texts about it,

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Speaker 1: multiple text messages from multiple different friends about it, people

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Speaker 1: that I hadn't talked to in years, like ex'es being like, hey,

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Speaker 1: what do you think is going on here? So this

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Speaker 1: is definitely one of those big cultural things that people

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Speaker 1: who maybe just are casually, like the most casual followers

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Speaker 1: of the royal family are now weighing into so fair warning.

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Speaker 1: All of that is to say that I don't know

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Speaker 1: a ton about the Royals, and so in this conversation,

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Speaker 1: if I get something wrong or you're like, actually, she's

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Speaker 1: a duchess, not a this like, I apologize in advance.

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Speaker 2: This is a little bit out of my out of

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Speaker 2: my purview.

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Speaker 1: However, I do know a lot about conspiracy theories, particularly

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Speaker 1: how they impact women and how they move online. This

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Speaker 1: kind of feels like the perfect storm of what makes

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Speaker 1: the conspiracy theory take off online. So naturally I want

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Speaker 1: it to weigh in, So let's get into it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, that sounds good.

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Speaker 3: So so like, what is the story here and why

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Speaker 3: are we talking about it on this show?

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Speaker 1: So this whole thing really started with Kate back in

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Speaker 1: January when Kensington Palace announced that Kate Middleton was going

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Speaker 1: to be entering the hospital the day before for a

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Speaker 1: planned abdominal surgery. The statement that they put out was

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Speaker 1: like very clear that they were asking for a little

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Speaker 1: bit of space on this. The statement read, the Princess

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Speaker 1: of Wales appreciates the interest. This statement will generate. She

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Speaker 1: hopes the public will understand her desire to maintain as

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Speaker 1: much normalty for her children as possible, and her wish

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Speaker 1: that her personal medical information remains private. The statement also

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Speaker 1: said that Kate was not going to be appearing in

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Speaker 1: public until Easter, which this year it's March thirty first,

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Speaker 1: and she still really has not been seen, but other

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Speaker 1: stuff sort of started to happen, like Prince William canceling

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Speaker 1: a scheduled appearance to attend the funeral of King Constantine

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Speaker 1: of the Helenus, who died last January and was his godfather.

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Speaker 1: This led to intense speculation that something had happened with her,

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Speaker 1: but Kensington Palace continued to say like, no, she's all good.

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Speaker 1: Her recovery is still on track, even though she has

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Speaker 1: not been seen. So again, to be clear, the statement

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Speaker 1: that the palace put out said that she would not

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Speaker 1: be seen in public until March thirty first. It's not

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Speaker 1: March thirty first yet, so they haven't really like it's

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Speaker 1: not like that data's come and gone, but people still

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Speaker 1: have questions. So this is really where you have people

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Speaker 1: really beginning to speculate. My group chat definitely like I

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Speaker 1: don't know if y'all out there listening, if your friends

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Speaker 1: have been talking about this NonStop, but mine have been

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Speaker 1: talking about this NonStop. Here are just a few of

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Speaker 1: the theories that I've seen floating out there about where

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Speaker 1: Kate is. One, something bad happened with her surgery, something

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Speaker 1: you know's she needs more recovery. Something bad has happened

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Speaker 1: related to her hospital's day.

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Speaker 2: That's one.

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Speaker 1: Another is that she's been replaced with a body double.

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Speaker 1: Another that I saw is that she is actually one

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Speaker 1: of the performers from that Glasgow Ai Willy Wonka experience.

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Speaker 3: I mean, that would make some sense, right, Like with

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Speaker 3: all the scrutiny on the royals, perhaps her deepest desire

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Speaker 3: is just to be the unknown.

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Speaker 1: You before we got on the mic, you sent me

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Speaker 1: that image that's like a screen, like a side by

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Speaker 1: side of the Unknown and Kate. And what's funny to

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Speaker 1: me about that image is that it's one of those

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Speaker 1: images where I suspect they're trying to be like the

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Speaker 1: similarities are there, but the Unknown wears a mask, so like.

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Speaker 2: No, they're not.

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Speaker 4: Could be anyone, could be anyone.

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Speaker 1: Although for those who listen to our round up about

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Speaker 1: the Willy Wonka Ai fiasco. I found out some interesting

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Speaker 1: information about the unknown.

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Speaker 4: Oh you know about the unknown.

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Speaker 2: I know about the unknown.

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Speaker 1: The unknown is a black woman, and I wrongly call

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Speaker 1: I wrongly said, Oh, the unknown is like wearing a

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Speaker 1: slash wig that wasn't a wig.

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Speaker 2: She just has full, beautiful black, curly hair.

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Speaker 4: The unknown becomes known.

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Speaker 1: If she If that actor is listening, you have a

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Speaker 1: open invitation on the podcast.

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Speaker 4: We would love to have you, assuming that it isn't

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Speaker 4: Kate Middleton, if.

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Speaker 1: It either way, honestly, either way. So I've heard a

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Speaker 1: theory that Kate Middleton has actually been dead this whole time.

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Speaker 1: And then there is my personal favorite theory that she's

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Speaker 1: actually getting a BBL, a Brazilian butt lift. And if

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Speaker 1: you've ever known anybody that's got that, you do have

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Speaker 1: some like downtime where you're not seen in public while

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Speaker 1: you recover.

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Speaker 3: That would be so funny if she came back and

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Speaker 3: was like, no, I didn't get a BBL, and like,

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Speaker 3: obviously did.

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Speaker 2: So that's the.

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Speaker 1: Thing about this speculation, right, some of it is like

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Speaker 1: genuinely very funny and some of it is kind of dark.

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Speaker 2: In researching for this episode.

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Speaker 1: I went down quite a few Reddit rabbit holes with

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Speaker 1: people speculating and giving their theories and their evidence. And

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Speaker 1: I don't want to get too much into some of

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Speaker 1: that because some of it, some of it is.

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Speaker 2: Like truly deeply dark. I will just say.

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Speaker 1: This, where is Kate to me kind of feels like Cubanon,

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Speaker 1: but like for normal white ladies, right, Like, it's one

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Speaker 1: of those things where a lot of the hallmarks of

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Speaker 1: conspiracy theories where anything can be used as evidence that

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Speaker 1: we're not being told the whole truth, right, And it's

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Speaker 1: not just like a mundane truth that they're hiding. Like,

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Speaker 1: the truth is not just that Kate is exhausted and

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Speaker 1: wanted to break and you know who wouldn't if you

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Speaker 1: were a royal.

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Speaker 2: It's like a sinister truth. It's not just a mundane truth.

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Speaker 1: And everything becomes a data point for the fact that

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Speaker 1: they are obscuring this sinister truth via lies and obscuscation.

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Speaker 1: So another truism about conspiracy theories that really helps them

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Speaker 1: to spread that we're seeing here is that generally there

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Speaker 1: is some nugget of truth to the theory that allows.

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Speaker 2: For like some specula of world building.

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Speaker 1: Right, Like, all of the conspiracy theories that I have

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Speaker 1: really seen take hold have that where there's some nugget

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Speaker 1: of something, where it's like, oh, this does seem to

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Speaker 1: be evidence of something what unclear, But that is what

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Speaker 1: allows people to really speculate and build a world on

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Speaker 1: top of it. And the truth here is that there

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Speaker 1: does seem to be something I guess I'll use the

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Speaker 1: word uncharacteristic going on. Like I said, I don't really

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Speaker 1: follow the Royals, but this is coming from Ellie Hall,

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Speaker 1: who is a journalist she used to work for BuzzFeed,

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Speaker 1: who really has been doing.

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Speaker 2: A lot of great coverage into the Royals.

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Speaker 1: She's been on There Are No Girls on the Internet

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Speaker 1: and the podcast I did with cool Zone Media Internet

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Speaker 1: hate Machine. Ellie Hall is the real deal, and she's

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Speaker 1: been talking about how the pr strategy around this has

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Speaker 1: been uncharacteristic from what we've seen from the Royals in

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Speaker 1: the past. Charlie Worzel at The Atlantic Summariz is saying

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Speaker 1: Kensington Palace's public relations strategy has been out of character.

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Speaker 1: The communications team it doesn't usually respond to God. There's

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Speaker 1: also been a dearth of speculative coverage from British tabloids,

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Speaker 1: which Hall notes has aroused suspicions, and then of course

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Speaker 1: there's the photo, which Hall wrote was distributed by the

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Speaker 1: Palace in an unprecedented manner. So we'll get to the

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Speaker 1: photo in a moment, but it does seem to be

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Speaker 1: that people who have been following the way that the

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Speaker 1: Royal Palace moves and how they put information out there

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Speaker 1: and respond to information, are saying whatever they're doing.

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Speaker 2: Right now feels new and feels different, and it.

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Speaker 1: Sounds like a big point of contention is that if

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Speaker 1: this surgery was like a planned surgery, like they say,

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Speaker 1: why would Kate have also scheduled appearances that she would

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Speaker 1: then need to cancel, right Like, if you knew you

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Speaker 1: were getting surgery, why would you schedule an event and

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Speaker 1: then need to cancel it. Concurrently, the Palace announced that

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Speaker 1: King Charles would also be stepping away from the public

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Speaker 1: eye to get treatment for an enlarged prostate, which many

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Speaker 1: people think is kind of suspicious to have two of

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Speaker 1: the most public facing royals both planning a medical procedure

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Speaker 1: and an absence from the public eye at the same time.

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Speaker 1: Royal expert and historian doctor Tessa Dunlop told The Mirror

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Speaker 1: that it is unusual for the royals to talk about

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Speaker 1: their health in this way that Charles has, where like

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Speaker 1: you are saying like a specific medical or health need

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Speaker 1: that you.

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Speaker 2: Are stepping away to get to get treatment for.

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Speaker 1: And then when you compare that to how they've talked

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Speaker 1: about it with Kate, where they're just like, oh, it's

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Speaker 1: an abdominal issue. All we can say is that it's

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Speaker 1: not cancerous. It seems like to onlookers that that might

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Speaker 1: be indicative of like not being told the full story.

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Speaker 1: There was also this idea that Kate, for lack of

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Speaker 1: a better phrase, has kind of been framed as like

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Speaker 1: the reliable royal. Like when you're a royal, they want

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Speaker 1: you to be in public all the time. All your

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Speaker 1: moves are like scrutinized and picked apart, but they want

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Speaker 1: you to like show up consistently and like look perfect

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Speaker 1: and polished and polite while doing this these public appearances

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Speaker 1: in which you will be like picked apart regardless of

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Speaker 1: how you show up. And so historically it does sound

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Speaker 1: like Kate for years has had this perception of like

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Speaker 1: going along with that and kind of playing the game.

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Speaker 1: So now people are saying that for her to be

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Speaker 1: pulling back if that is indeed what this is seems

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Speaker 1: uncharacteristic to the point that people feel like there has

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Speaker 1: to be more to this story. So all of this

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Speaker 1: is really a hallmark of how conspiracy theories move online,

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Speaker 1: right the fact that there does seem to be a

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Speaker 1: small nugget of truth that something at least uncharacteristic is

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Speaker 1: happening here, and this lack of information that just leaves

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Speaker 1: a lot of space for everybody to fill in the

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Speaker 1: blanks and assume that something fishy or you know, malevolent

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Speaker 1: is going on.

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Speaker 2: The royal family.

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Speaker 1: Has been pretty quiet while all this speculation has been swirling.

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Speaker 1: I think Prince William put out some kind of a

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Speaker 1: comment that he was like, oh, well, I'm not focused

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Speaker 1: on what's happening on social media. I'm focused on my work,

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Speaker 1: and you know, I get that response.

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Speaker 2: Like for a long.

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Speaker 1: Time, people, I think the media guidance was like, oh,

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Speaker 1: you don't you shouldn't respond to rumors, you shouldn't respond

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Speaker 1: to speculation, don't respond, be above it, ignore it. But

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Speaker 1: it's clear to me that that strategy is just not

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Speaker 1: serving them here because it just just leaves space for

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Speaker 1: people to fill in that gap with whatever information supported

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Speaker 1: by evidence. Or not, because they're not really saying anything

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Speaker 1: to dispute it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's interesting.

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Speaker 3: Earlier you described it as world building, which when I

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Speaker 3: think of world building, I think of like games like

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Speaker 3: Dungeons and Dragons or you know, any number of games

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Speaker 3: where people are using their imagination for fun to create worlds.

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Speaker 3: But with this, Yeah, it really seems like people are

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Speaker 3: using their imagination to build worlds about public figures.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 3: It's interesting, and you have to wonder, like, why why

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Speaker 3: are people so invested in world building around this?

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Speaker 4: Oh?

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Speaker 1: I don't have to wonder because it's fun, Like I guess.

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Speaker 1: That's one of the things that I really want to

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Speaker 1: drive home is that one of the reasons why conspiracy

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Speaker 1: theories can really take off is because world building is fun.

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Speaker 1: People play games like that because they are fun. Should

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Speaker 1: you be doing it and speculating about the lives and

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Speaker 1: private health information about strangers?

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Speaker 2: I would argue no.

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Speaker 1: But the reason why people get so invested is because

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Speaker 1: puzzles and games and feeling like you have figured something out.

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Speaker 2: That other people haven't figured out, scrutiny, you know, feeling like.

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Speaker 1: You were the clever person that was able to read

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Speaker 1: between the lines, and like spot carefully constructed media or

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Speaker 1: pr lies four lies and like really get the truth.

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Speaker 1: That's fun for us, and it's very like validating. It

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Speaker 1: makes it like if you are somebody who can cracks

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Speaker 1: what's really going on, that's very self flattering because that

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Speaker 1: makes you smart, that makes you clever, that makes you

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Speaker 1: not a sheep, that makes you not somebody who dislike

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Speaker 1: mindlessly accepts the party line that you've been given. All

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Speaker 1: things that people like to feel about themselves. And so

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Speaker 1: in all the times that I've covered conspiracy theories, which

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Speaker 1: has been a lot on this podcast, that is something

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Speaker 1: that I really kind of understand about them, how people

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Speaker 1: can get sucked into them for many reasons, not the

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Speaker 1: least of which is because it's entertaining. But I think that,

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Speaker 1: as you said, like there's a difference between world building,

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Speaker 1: speculative world building for a D and D character that

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Speaker 1: you spent all this time building up, and a real

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Speaker 1: person who is a stranger to you, who really exists

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Speaker 1: and might very well really be going through something.

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Speaker 2: And so the.

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Speaker 1: Silence from the Royals really allows for all of this

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Speaker 1: to build up, right, and it really fuels more theories

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Speaker 1: that like something fishy is going on, not just not

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Speaker 1: just like mundane something like bad is we're not being

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Speaker 1: told something bad. One person on Twitter said, quote, you're

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Speaker 1: telling me that Kate Middleton, the same woman who posed

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Speaker 1: outside the hospital like a freaking supermodel mere hours that

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Speaker 1: they're giving birth, suddenly requires months of recovery before showing

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Speaker 1: her face and the British press now magically respects privacy.

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Speaker 1: This feels sinister, So listen, As I said, I don't

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Speaker 1: follow the royals that closely, so I won't even pretend

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Speaker 1: to act like I have some insight into what's going

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Speaker 1: on here. As somebody who has really studied conspiracy theories

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Speaker 1: and the way they move online.

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Speaker 2: I bet the truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

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Speaker 1: That maybe something is going on that the royal family

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Speaker 1: is not being one hundred percent honest about, and maybe

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Speaker 1: that thing is a lot more mundane than a lot

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Speaker 1: of the onlookers would like to believe, and are sort

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Speaker 1: of like building up in their head, and it's possible

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Speaker 1: that the motivations for that aren't necessarily like sinister, let's

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Speaker 1: take a quick break.

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Speaker 5: At our back.

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Speaker 3: It does feel a little bit like there is something

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Speaker 3: going on, because like stories like this, they could so

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Speaker 3: easily kill it if there was nothing happening, you know,

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Speaker 3: if everything was above boards, they could easily kill the

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Speaker 3: story by releasing a photo of her looking happy and healthy.

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Speaker 1: Right, well, let's talk about that, because this is actually

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Speaker 1: where stuff gets real weird. So there has been one

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Speaker 1: photo of Kate since January that was published on March fourth.

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Speaker 1: It's that photo where she's in the car with her mom.

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Speaker 1: It's kind of grainy. The other picture that was published

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Speaker 1: was on her Instagram of her and her kids for

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Speaker 1: Mother's Day, which in the UK is March tenth. This

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Speaker 1: photo was pretty obviously manipulated in some way. Now, the

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Speaker 1: individual edits on the photo are pretty minor individually, but

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Speaker 1: like on their own, taken together in totality, like it's

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Speaker 1: not a good look. And the fact that the edits

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Speaker 1: are like really amateurish. You know, when you look at

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Speaker 1: the picture, it's obvious that something is not right with

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Speaker 1: this photo. And so I think that's why when they

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Speaker 1: put this photo out there was a complete uproar because

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Speaker 1: after all of this speculation that where is Kate? Is

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Speaker 1: she okay? YadA, YadA YadA. The way that you respond

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Speaker 1: to that is this image that clearly does not look right.

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Speaker 1: Of course, that's going to be red meat to all

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Speaker 1: these people speculating that something has gone wrong. So a

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Speaker 1: lot of people were speculating that those images were AI generated,

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Speaker 1: or even that they were AI generated deep things, like

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Speaker 1: the image did not exist in any capacity, Like it

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Speaker 1: wasn't just an.

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Speaker 2: Edited image, that image never took place.

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Speaker 1: People were even saying that the image was an edited

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Speaker 1: version of a picture of Kate from the cover of Vogue.

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Speaker 1: Now this conspiracy theory, to me felt especially stupid because

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Speaker 1: you had people who were like doing side by side

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Speaker 1: comparisons of the manipulated image that Kate put out and

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Speaker 1: the image from the Vogue magazine and being like, look

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Speaker 1: how they look so similar. That her smiles the same,

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Speaker 1: her eyes are the same. It's the same person. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: they do look similar, Like a picture of the same

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Speaker 1: woman might look the same, Right.

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Speaker 4: Makes sense if she really is the same woman.

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Speaker 2: How deep does this thing go?

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Speaker 1: So despite all of the speculation that these photos are

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Speaker 1: like AI generated deep fakes, NBC spoke to Hanny for Reid,

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Speaker 1: a University of California Berkeley professor who investigates digital manipulation

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Speaker 1: and misinformation, who.

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Speaker 2: Basically said it doesn't look like AI to me.

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Speaker 1: It looks like somebody just used good old fashioned photoshop

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Speaker 1: to edit those photos and that they are not AI

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Speaker 1: generated deep fakes. Hanny says, I think it is unlikely

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Speaker 1: that this is anything more than a relatively minor photo manipulation.

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Speaker 1: There is no evidence that this image is entirely AI generated,

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Speaker 1: So AI or not, the photo had been manipulated so

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Speaker 1: much that it became a violation of most newswire services policies.

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Speaker 1: So if you don't know what a newswire is, organizations

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Speaker 1: and institutions like Kensington Palace or the United Nations or NASA,

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Speaker 1: they submit photos to newswire services, and those services basically

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Speaker 1: vet and fact check those photos and then send them

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Speaker 1: all around for other media outlets to use. Now, anybody

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Speaker 1: who is submitting a photo to a newswire service knows.

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Speaker 2: The drill right.

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Speaker 1: There are very clear and specific rules about how the

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Speaker 1: photos can be edited, like, for instance, when it comes

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Speaker 1: to the Associated Press, you cannot even remove red eye

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Speaker 1: from those photos. This is why if you ever want

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Speaker 1: to get you know, if you ever see pictures on

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Speaker 1: Instagram of like an event or an award ceremony and

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Speaker 1: all the celebrities look perfect and polished. If you go

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Speaker 1: to Getty or go to ap you can get the real,

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Speaker 1: unedited photo. And that's how I know that when you're

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Speaker 1: scrolling social media and you're thinking, like, oh my god, celebrities,

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Speaker 1: they look so perfect. None of those photos are real.

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Speaker 1: They are putting the edited photo on their Instagram.

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Speaker 2: If you do a.

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Speaker 1: Side by side of any of those photos, they all

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Speaker 1: tell a very different story. And that is why nobody

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Speaker 1: took compare themselves to what they are seeing on a

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Speaker 1: celebrities Instagram.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it starts to get into like interesting existential questions though,

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Speaker 3: like if the you know, if a celebrities photo from

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Speaker 3: like an award show has been touched up to like

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Speaker 3: remove the red eye and smooth over their pores, is

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Speaker 3: it a fake photo?

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Speaker 2: I mean, like in twenty twenty four, what even is

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Speaker 2: a photo?

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Speaker 1: Like, I mean, I don't want to get I don't

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Speaker 1: want to make it seem like I just did a

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Speaker 1: massive bong rip before before recording this episode. But like,

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Speaker 1: you know, I know people who have entirely AI generated

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Speaker 1: headshots on their LinkedIn of images that don't.

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Speaker 2: Exist, but like yet there they are.

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Speaker 1: So I do think we're all sort of grappling with

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Speaker 1: some larger existential questions about what is a photo, what

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Speaker 1: is truth, what is reality? And I think that this

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Speaker 1: whole Kate Middleton thing really demonstrates that were in this

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Speaker 1: kind of new and precarious territory when it comes to that.

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Speaker 1: So one place where this is not precarious is newswire

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Speaker 1: services because the associated press, Getty Images, and Reuters all

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Speaker 1: issued kill notices for this photo, which means that they

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Speaker 1: were advising news agencies to remove this photo from their

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Speaker 1: archives and from circulation and to not use it at all.

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Speaker 1: I cannot stress to y'all how big of a deal

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Speaker 1: this is. In my entire time working at MSNBC, not

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Speaker 1: once did I ever see one kill notice.

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Speaker 2: That is how rare it was.

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Speaker 1: The Verge reports that quote kill notices are incredibly rare

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Speaker 1: and unusual. One wire service source told me they could

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Speaker 1: count on one hand the number of kills issued in

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Speaker 1: a year. To give you a sense of scale, AP

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Speaker 1: says it publishes thousands of stories a day and a

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Speaker 1: million pictures a year. Getty Images covers one hundred and

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Speaker 1: sixty thousand events annually. That a kill notice of this

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Speaker 1: magnitude happened is a big deal.

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Speaker 3: Okay, so that's a pretty big screw up on somebody's part.

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Speaker 4: How did this happen?

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Speaker 1: Well, Kate says that she was just like innocently playing

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Speaker 1: with photoshop, like we all do. She put out a

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Speaker 1: statement that said, like many amateur photographers, I do occasionally

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Speaker 1: experiment with editing. I wanted to express my apologies for

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Speaker 1: any confusion the family photograph we shared yesterday caused. I

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Speaker 1: hope everyone celebrating had a very happy Mother's Day.

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Speaker 2: Signed. See what do you think of that statement? You

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Speaker 2: seem like you have thoughts.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's I can feel the like tendency to want

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Speaker 3: to speculate and world build like happening within me in

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Speaker 3: real time here, Because like my initial reaction to that is,

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Speaker 3: why is Kate Middleton taking her own photos and editing

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Speaker 3: her own photos and managing her own social feed?

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Speaker 4: Like?

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Speaker 3: Is that how it works? I would assume that she

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Speaker 3: would have staff to do that.

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Speaker 1: It's so funny because I had the same exact feeling

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Speaker 1: when I read this statement one two, I kind of

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Speaker 1: almost again and this is me like projecting my own

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Speaker 1: whatever onto it. I almost kind of like felt this

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Speaker 1: statement was sort of like like the I hope everybody's

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Speaker 1: celebrating had a very happy Mother's Day. It kind of

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Speaker 1: seems like, worry about your own family, don't worry about

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Speaker 1: what I'm doing, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it feels like a little bit of a dodge.

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Speaker 3: And it also, yeah, it feels like a dodge. It

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Speaker 3: doesn't feel like it's addressing the actual like substance of

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Speaker 3: the concern here.

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Speaker 2: That's exactly how I felt.

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Speaker 1: So, as you've said, unsurprisingly, this photo, which I feel

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Speaker 1: like was obviously meant to show that Kate is like

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Speaker 1: alive and doing well, did not accomplish that. In fact,

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Speaker 1: just the opposite. So now you have people who really

439
00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:52,359
Speaker 1: think that something is up, and the speculation has just

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Speaker 1: been kicked into complete hyper overdrive. I gotta say, in

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Speaker 1: my opinion, this was just a terrible com n PR move,

442
00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:04,159
Speaker 1: Like I don't know if Kate did innocently edit this

443
00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:06,159
Speaker 1: photo and post it, or if somebody else edited it

444
00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:08,480
Speaker 1: and posted it on her behalf or whatever happened, but

445
00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:13,880
Speaker 1: this is like a textbook conspiracy theory thing that drives

446
00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:17,280
Speaker 1: people to speculate even more, Like I can't even it

447
00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:20,000
Speaker 1: would be like, you know, the conspiracy theory that.

448
00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:23,639
Speaker 2: Ted Cruz is the Zodiac Killer.

449
00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:25,840
Speaker 1: It would be like if Ted Cruz went out on

450
00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:28,160
Speaker 1: stage and was wearing like and I just and had

451
00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:30,639
Speaker 1: just gotten a Zodiac tattoo or something, and it's like

452
00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:35,040
Speaker 1: that that is the level of overdrive that this obviously

453
00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:37,000
Speaker 1: would kick this conspiracy theory up into.

454
00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:37,840
Speaker 2: Do you know what I mean?

455
00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:45,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it feels like if there's conspiracy theorizing happening,

456
00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:55,240
Speaker 3: releasing a ambiguously doctored photo would be exactly the thing

457
00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:58,800
Speaker 3: to do if you wanted to feed the conspiracies.

458
00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:02,639
Speaker 1: Yes, so, I know the royals have had a pretty

459
00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:08,320
Speaker 1: complex relationship with the media, but this image has become a.

460
00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:09,080
Speaker 2: Real sticking point.

461
00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:12,959
Speaker 1: Kensington Palace is no longer being seen as like a

462
00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:16,359
Speaker 1: trusted source, and part of me feels like that, like

463
00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:17,639
Speaker 1: is that really so bad?

464
00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:19,040
Speaker 2: But the fact that.

465
00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:22,000
Speaker 1: They are putting it in explicit terms like that, I

466
00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:25,600
Speaker 1: think is a big change. Phil Setwind, Global News, director

467
00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:29,600
Speaker 1: of Ajon's France Press, told BBC's The Media Show quote,

468
00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:33,239
Speaker 1: all the agencies validated the photo, which clearly violated our

469
00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:37,000
Speaker 1: rules because it's actually not even well photoshopped. When asked

470
00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:39,920
Speaker 1: if Kensington Palace can maintain its reputation as a trusted

471
00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:44,040
Speaker 1: source after this whole controversy, he said, absolutely not. Like

472
00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:45,919
Speaker 1: with anything, when you're let down by a source, the

473
00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:48,680
Speaker 1: bar is raised, and we've got major issues internally as

474
00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:49,919
Speaker 1: to how we validate the photo.

475
00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:50,960
Speaker 2: We shouldn't have done it.

476
00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:53,560
Speaker 1: It violated our guidelines, and therefore we sent out notes

477
00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:55,040
Speaker 1: to all of our team at the moment to be

478
00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:58,399
Speaker 1: absolutely super more vigilant about the content coming across our desks,

479
00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:01,280
Speaker 1: even from what we would call trust sources. He goes

480
00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:03,200
Speaker 1: on to say something that I think speaks to your

481
00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:06,400
Speaker 1: point about what even is a photo? What even is reality?

482
00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:08,840
Speaker 1: He says, one thing that's really important is that you

483
00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:11,840
Speaker 1: cannot be distorting reality for the public. The big issue

484
00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:13,879
Speaker 1: here is one of trust and the lack of trust

485
00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:16,840
Speaker 1: of the general public in institutions generally.

486
00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:17,200
Speaker 2: And in the media.

487
00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:20,760
Speaker 1: So it's extremely important that a photo does represent broadly

488
00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:24,480
Speaker 1: the reality that it's in and therefore it is not

489
00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:26,600
Speaker 1: in a sense telling some kind of a lie or

490
00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:29,560
Speaker 1: some kind of a false truth around an event that happens.

491
00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:32,760
Speaker 1: And so that really speaks to your question earlier of like,

492
00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:36,760
Speaker 1: are what are these photos? In twenty twenty four, when

493
00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:40,400
Speaker 1: AI and photoshop and all of these ways that images

494
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:43,240
Speaker 1: and reality can be manipulated. What does it even mean

495
00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:46,040
Speaker 1: to demonstrate reality? Like, I think this guy is right,

496
00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:50,359
Speaker 1: that it is really important that everybody understands and has

497
00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:53,960
Speaker 1: that trust that what you're seeing is broadly true, broadly

498
00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:57,440
Speaker 1: based in reality. But you and if you don't have that,

499
00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:02,840
Speaker 1: it further erodes the trust in both institutions and news media.

500
00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:05,879
Speaker 1: But like, there does seem to be some questions about

501
00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:09,720
Speaker 1: what that means when the fabric of reality is so

502
00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:14,200
Speaker 1: easily and often manipulated using technology.

503
00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:15,679
Speaker 2: And I don't have the answer to that. What do

504
00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:16,080
Speaker 2: you think?

505
00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:21,919
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's uh. I mean sign of the

506
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:24,440
Speaker 3: Times is like a you know, kind of a cliche,

507
00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:27,760
Speaker 3: But I feel like we're living in a time that's

508
00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:33,320
Speaker 3: really characterized by lack of trust in institutions, and not

509
00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:37,400
Speaker 3: just lack of trust, but like rapidly declining trust in institutions,

510
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:45,679
Speaker 3: as well as rapidly declining trust in what we even see,

511
00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:50,040
Speaker 3: like the images we see on the news and social media.

512
00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:55,800
Speaker 3: Like the idea of a shared reality itself I think

513
00:26:55,920 --> 00:27:01,480
Speaker 3: feels pretty tenuous these days. And I guess this story

514
00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:06,400
Speaker 3: kind of feels like Kate Middleton and the royals perhaps

515
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:14,960
Speaker 3: like stepped right into that. And you know what, maybe

516
00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:19,400
Speaker 3: ten years ago might have been like a minor story

517
00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:26,840
Speaker 3: about like royal gossip is now solidly in like the

518
00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:32,679
Speaker 3: center of this existential information crisis that we're all having

519
00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:35,879
Speaker 3: about like what what is reality?

520
00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:39,000
Speaker 4: Even? How do how can we know what is a photo?

521
00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:39,800
Speaker 4: What is anything?

522
00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:41,240
Speaker 2: Exactly?

523
00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:44,280
Speaker 1: And I think I don't know that they realized that

524
00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:47,600
Speaker 1: they were waiting into this, into all of these questions

525
00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:50,199
Speaker 1: by releasing this photo, But I think I think that

526
00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:53,480
Speaker 1: you're right that they really have and I think that

527
00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:55,800
Speaker 1: this is some sort of a milestone where it's.

528
00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:59,440
Speaker 2: Like, no, we really do need to have an.

529
00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:02,440
Speaker 1: Understanding of what reality is. You can't just use technology

530
00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:04,280
Speaker 1: manipulation to shape reality.

531
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:06,680
Speaker 2: We will not accept that. We will not tolerate that.

532
00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:10,560
Speaker 1: Like John Alsop from the Columbia Journalism Review actually wrote

533
00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:12,040
Speaker 1: a piece where he says that he thinks that this

534
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:15,639
Speaker 1: whole debacle is kind of a hopeful sign for our

535
00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:18,640
Speaker 1: current media climate. He writes, Yes, much of the discourse

536
00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:22,040
Speaker 1: around this episode has been untethered from reality, but much

537
00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:24,920
Speaker 1: of it is actually applied do skepticism to a piece

538
00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:29,080
Speaker 1: of information that merited it more skepticism, indeed, than credulous

539
00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:32,440
Speaker 1: recent statements from traditional commenters about the royal family moving

540
00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:35,480
Speaker 1: into a new golden age of transparency. Declining trust and

541
00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:39,040
Speaker 1: institutions is undoubtedly a problem of our current information age,

542
00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:42,440
Speaker 1: but institutions don't automatically deserve trust either. So I think

543
00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:45,400
Speaker 1: that you're right that we're sort of grappling with what

544
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:48,960
Speaker 1: all of this means. But the fact that the wire

545
00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:52,280
Speaker 1: services pulled it immediately, that the Royal family had to

546
00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:54,440
Speaker 1: come out and say, oh, we edited this picture. It's

547
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:58,160
Speaker 1: been manipulated, I think does in some ways kind of

548
00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:01,800
Speaker 1: speak to the idea that we're kind of asking and

549
00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:05,040
Speaker 1: answering those questions in real time. But the answer is not,

550
00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:07,520
Speaker 1: just like, you will accept the reality that we present

551
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:08,560
Speaker 1: to you without question.

552
00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:10,000
Speaker 2: And maybe that's a good thing.

553
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:10,959
Speaker 4: Maybe it is.

554
00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:14,040
Speaker 3: Maybe that's the the optimistic take. I mean, I I

555
00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:18,920
Speaker 3: hope that news agencies and the public and you know,

556
00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:21,280
Speaker 3: you and me as well as individuals like all of

557
00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:28,240
Speaker 3: us bring this same skepticism to other stories of you know,

558
00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:32,600
Speaker 3: that have dubious evidence, right, Like it's it is interesting

559
00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:36,760
Speaker 3: that there is this whole you know, media brew haha

560
00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:41,000
Speaker 3: about Kate Middleton, you know where is she?

561
00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:43,640
Speaker 4: Honestly is it?

562
00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:45,920
Speaker 3: Like an American who doesn't follow the Royals, it just

563
00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:48,000
Speaker 3: doesn't feel that important. Like I can see how it

564
00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:50,040
Speaker 3: is important, and I you know, read an article a

565
00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:55,480
Speaker 3: little bit ago written by a Britain about like the

566
00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:59,240
Speaker 3: importance of the Royals as like a source of stability

567
00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:02,240
Speaker 3: when they're government is feeling very unstable, and so like

568
00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:04,080
Speaker 3: that kind of like made some sense to me, but

569
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:06,880
Speaker 3: like in general, it doesn't feel that important, and it

570
00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:10,040
Speaker 3: feels like there are so many other like hugely important

571
00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:11,760
Speaker 3: media stories where there.

572
00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:13,040
Speaker 4: Is a lot of.

573
00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:19,160
Speaker 3: Fake evidence, fake photos, fake narratives, like you know, the

574
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:22,720
Speaker 3: war in Gaza, the war in Ukraine. The Dysantis campaign

575
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:25,360
Speaker 3: released some deep fakes, but you know, back in the

576
00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:29,000
Speaker 3: primary when they were still a thing, the like fake

577
00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:32,000
Speaker 3: robo call that used a deep fake of Biden's voice,

578
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:36,200
Speaker 3: all of those stories got so much less airtime than this.

579
00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:43,880
Speaker 3: And you know, I guess, optimistically, maybe this big story

580
00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:47,000
Speaker 3: that's like using the sort of cultural hook of the

581
00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:49,640
Speaker 3: Royals to get people thinking and talking about these things,

582
00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:56,760
Speaker 3: maybe that will kick off kind of a new era

583
00:30:57,040 --> 00:30:58,120
Speaker 3: of skepticism.

584
00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:01,520
Speaker 1: I hope you're right, and I feel very strongly that

585
00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:05,040
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter if it's a like quote small story

586
00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:08,080
Speaker 1: or like a cultural story or whatever, or if it's

587
00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:14,200
Speaker 1: something as big as you know, a ongoing war or conflict.

588
00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:16,960
Speaker 2: I think that I've said this on the show before.

589
00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:18,520
Speaker 1: I'm sure people are sick of me saying it, but like,

590
00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:21,480
Speaker 1: the truth isn't important. The truth matters, and we all

591
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:23,560
Speaker 1: deserve the truth, and so it doesn't matter if it's

592
00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:26,160
Speaker 1: like a pop culture story that seems quite small or

593
00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:28,640
Speaker 1: a big story. In fact, in my mind, those things

594
00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:30,920
Speaker 1: are connected, right, And so I agree with you that

595
00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:33,960
Speaker 1: maybe this is an indicative of like how we will

596
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:39,160
Speaker 1: be thinking about other quote bigger stories of medium manipulation

597
00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:43,560
Speaker 1: and how we understand them through this quote smaller story,

598
00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:47,120
Speaker 1: you know. Remac molavi Vesi, a digital rights lawyer and

599
00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:50,760
Speaker 1: senior researcher at the Mozilla Foundation, told CBS something along

600
00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:53,840
Speaker 1: these lines that I really agreed with. Quote it shows

601
00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:56,840
Speaker 1: our vulnerability toward content and toward how we make up

602
00:31:56,840 --> 00:31:59,480
Speaker 1: our realities. If we cannot trust what we see, this.

603
00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:00,400
Speaker 2: Is really bad.

604
00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:03,480
Speaker 1: Not only do we have already a decrease in trust

605
00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:06,600
Speaker 1: in institutions, we have a decrease in trust and media.

606
00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:09,160
Speaker 1: We have a decrease in trust even for big tech

607
00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:12,080
Speaker 1: and for politicians. So this part is really bad for

608
00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:15,280
Speaker 1: democracies and can be destabilizing. And so I kind of

609
00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:17,640
Speaker 1: agree that it doesn't matter if we're talking about, you know,

610
00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:22,440
Speaker 1: a campaign or a war or a pop culture event

611
00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:26,200
Speaker 1: that if you if you don't have, if people no longer,

612
00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:29,040
Speaker 1: if trust is no longer a thing that just exists,

613
00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:32,760
Speaker 1: the entire thing breaks down, and the entire thing is destabilizing,

614
00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:35,640
Speaker 1: and democracies are really fragile, and so like, I think

615
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:37,080
Speaker 1: it really does matter.

616
00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:41,920
Speaker 4: More.

617
00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:57,480
Speaker 5: After a quick break, let's get right back into it.

618
00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:05,880
Speaker 3: Absolutely, yeah, I totally agree, And I think you know,

619
00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:09,240
Speaker 3: you talked about earlier on the show that when there's

620
00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:15,200
Speaker 3: a lack of good, reliable information, people like to world

621
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:18,520
Speaker 3: build and it's fun to speculate about what might be

622
00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:23,440
Speaker 3: going on, and that is harmful. But then what's even

623
00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:27,440
Speaker 3: more harmful is when nefarious, bad actors with an agenda

624
00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:32,280
Speaker 3: step into that space and world build in a way

625
00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:37,200
Speaker 3: that is not just you know, fun speculation, but intentionally

626
00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:42,400
Speaker 3: trying to like mislead and push authoritarian narratives exactly.

627
00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:45,120
Speaker 1: And this is where I'm kind of like having my

628
00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:49,120
Speaker 1: own come to Jesus moment. Like everything I'm about to say,

629
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:52,080
Speaker 1: I'm saying in a mirror essentially to myself, which is

630
00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:56,120
Speaker 1: that I am someone who loves pop culture.

631
00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:57,240
Speaker 2: Loves celebrity gossip.

632
00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:01,600
Speaker 1: I read de Mois like I enjoy that as a pastime.

633
00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:05,480
Speaker 1: But I do not think that is wholly unconnected from

634
00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:09,640
Speaker 1: the bad actors who are using that very same dynamic

635
00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:13,640
Speaker 1: to manipulate people and destabilize democracies. And so I don't

636
00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:16,600
Speaker 1: have the answer of where one ends and the other begins,

637
00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:18,920
Speaker 1: but I think we got to ask those questions. And

638
00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:21,120
Speaker 1: then I think, so you have all these questions about

639
00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:23,759
Speaker 1: what is truth and manipulation, but when you add in

640
00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:25,840
Speaker 1: the Royals, it just takes on another layer.

641
00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:26,160
Speaker 2: You know.

642
00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:28,640
Speaker 1: I read that piece and the cut that you referenced

643
00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:31,239
Speaker 1: earlier about how the royal family kind of needs this

644
00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:34,960
Speaker 1: magic to exist as an institution, like a stable institution,

645
00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:38,680
Speaker 1: to survive, And I think that what we are seeing

646
00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:42,400
Speaker 1: right now is that people have really lost trust in

647
00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:45,640
Speaker 1: the Royals as an institution and the people who make

648
00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:48,960
Speaker 1: media and cover the Royals and media more broadly. And

649
00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:51,520
Speaker 1: so I think folks saw how Megan Markle was treated

650
00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:55,000
Speaker 1: before her and Harry left their royal duties, Prince Andrew's crimes,

651
00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:57,880
Speaker 1: that whole thing, and I think general questions about the

652
00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:01,200
Speaker 1: place of a monarchy as this whole over of harmful

653
00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:04,640
Speaker 1: colonial legacies has really got people asking some questions about,

654
00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:08,480
Speaker 1: you know, the royals and how they exist so that

655
00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:11,200
Speaker 1: magic that they're that they the cut piece describes that

656
00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:15,239
Speaker 1: the Royal family kind of needs to be working for

657
00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:17,840
Speaker 1: us all to believe in the institution as something that

658
00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:20,480
Speaker 1: is stable and good. Kind of like, isn't it really work?

659
00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:22,600
Speaker 1: That magic is really kind of not magicing so much.

660
00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:26,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, And you know, the other piece of that article

661
00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:29,800
Speaker 3: in the Cut was not just how the Royal family

662
00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:33,400
Speaker 3: needs the magic to exist, but also how the like

663
00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:39,000
Speaker 3: British people kind of need them to exist.

664
00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:41,160
Speaker 4: And I found that interesting.

665
00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:44,600
Speaker 3: You know, again, as an American, it's not something that

666
00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:50,560
Speaker 3: really resonates with me, but you know, it's it's been

667
00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:53,799
Speaker 3: a long time since I read anything that was sort

668
00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:57,600
Speaker 3: of celebrating the idea of a constitutional monarchy. It always

669
00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:00,480
Speaker 3: just seemed like a weird colonial relic to me. But

670
00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:05,200
Speaker 3: it was interesting to read in this modern era that

671
00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:07,920
Speaker 3: we're in, when you know, survey after survey shows that

672
00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:14,080
Speaker 3: people are open to other forms of government than democracy,

673
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:20,200
Speaker 3: which is like very alarming and concerning. But it feels

674
00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:23,280
Speaker 3: like that is a little bit related here as well.

675
00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:26,400
Speaker 1: And this thing with the whole Kate Middleton image, I

676
00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:29,680
Speaker 1: think to me really reads like the last gap of

677
00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:33,080
Speaker 1: really trying to use technology like photoshop to create this

678
00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:37,880
Speaker 1: reality where people can see the magic, have trust in

679
00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:40,239
Speaker 1: it and believe that it exists, right, and then have

680
00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:44,239
Speaker 1: it translated back into trust in that institution and that

681
00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:46,240
Speaker 1: as a like governing body.

682
00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:46,959
Speaker 2: Does that make sense?

683
00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:49,240
Speaker 4: It does make sense in a weird way.

684
00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:51,279
Speaker 1: And so, you know, I think a lot of the

685
00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:54,800
Speaker 1: tools that the royals and other famous people have to

686
00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:58,759
Speaker 1: keep this machine sort of going, you know, pretty photos,

687
00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:01,839
Speaker 1: a careful relationship with the media and the public, I

688
00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:04,560
Speaker 1: think those tools are beginning to break down and become

689
00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:08,040
Speaker 1: less effective in twenty twenty four, in part because we

690
00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:10,560
Speaker 1: have the Internet. Right, people love to be slewed as

691
00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:13,239
Speaker 1: a hyper focused on images to point out like what's

692
00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:15,399
Speaker 1: not right with them. None of this is really new,

693
00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:17,920
Speaker 1: like onlookers have been doing that with the royal family forever,

694
00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:22,279
Speaker 1: but this new technology and internet fueled climate that is new.

695
00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:25,440
Speaker 1: So I think these old tools will not work in

696
00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:28,719
Speaker 1: this new climate. As Charlie Warzel puts it at the Atlantic,

697
00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:31,880
Speaker 1: people have recently lost trust in both the Royal Family

698
00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:35,480
Speaker 1: as an institution and in the organizations that cover the monarchy,

699
00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:38,000
Speaker 1: in part due to Prince Harry and Meghan Markle's departure

700
00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:39,960
Speaker 1: from royal life. There is a new found sense of

701
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:43,080
Speaker 1: the Royals as conniving and manipulative, and the press plays

702
00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:45,840
Speaker 1: into this. This trust vacuum when it collides with a

703
00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:49,480
Speaker 1: still new technology such as generative AI, creates the optimal

704
00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:52,759
Speaker 1: conditions for conspiracy theories to grow. It seems clear, at

705
00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:55,040
Speaker 1: least in the case of the Royal family, that the

706
00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:57,920
Speaker 1: institutions aren't sure how to handle any of this. It

707
00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:00,640
Speaker 1: makes sense then that the two biggest is it real

708
00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:04,120
Speaker 1: image controversies of the past year have centered on figures

709
00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:08,640
Speaker 1: from archaic cultural political organizations, the papacy and the monarchy.

710
00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:11,960
Speaker 1: He's referring to that AI image of the Pope wearing

711
00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:14,880
Speaker 1: a popper poat, which I always say, like, completely fooled me,

712
00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:18,680
Speaker 1: And it does make sense that, like, I think that

713
00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:24,120
Speaker 1: you're right, that it reflects a larger disillusionment in these

714
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:28,719
Speaker 1: arcane political and cultural organizations.

715
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:35,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, and also arcane political cultural organizations that have tended

716
00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:39,640
Speaker 3: to be very conservative, right. And I think in the past,

717
00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:42,920
Speaker 3: one of the ways they maintained power was by tightly

718
00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:49,200
Speaker 3: controlling information. And with social media, that's suddenly so much harder, right,

719
00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:51,120
Speaker 3: Like you maybe in the past you could talk to

720
00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:54,040
Speaker 3: twenty news outlets and get them all on board.

721
00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:55,520
Speaker 4: That's not the case.

722
00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:59,000
Speaker 3: Now there's you know, hundreds of millions of people reposting

723
00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:03,680
Speaker 3: stories all over the place. And yeah, then with generative

724
00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:09,280
Speaker 3: AI and you know, lack of confidence in the veracity

725
00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:15,400
Speaker 3: of photos, videos, audio. It's so it's a weird time

726
00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:19,120
Speaker 3: for all of us. And yeah, it's not surprising that

727
00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:26,360
Speaker 3: it's an especially weird, difficult time for these storied institutions

728
00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:31,480
Speaker 3: that have developed most of their tools of power from

729
00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:37,640
Speaker 3: a previous era. That feels increasingly it leaves them feeling

730
00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:42,320
Speaker 3: increasingly ill equipped to deal with the current media environment

731
00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:42,879
Speaker 3: that we're in.

732
00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:47,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I mean to that point, this is loosely related,

733
00:39:47,640 --> 00:39:49,759
Speaker 1: but I feel like I'm sort of personally reckoning with

734
00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:54,239
Speaker 1: wanting to read all the speculations about what's going on

735
00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:57,560
Speaker 1: and also being like engaging in this feels icky a

736
00:39:57,600 --> 00:40:01,600
Speaker 1: little bit like, like, engaging in speculating about somebody's health

737
00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:05,200
Speaker 1: information feels really wrong to me, And so I think

738
00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:08,400
Speaker 1: it speaks to how much we as the public feel

739
00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:12,520
Speaker 1: like we are owed information about famous people, like the royals.

740
00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:14,320
Speaker 1: Like on the one hand, you might be like, well,

741
00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:16,799
Speaker 1: that's the drill when you become a royal, and maybe

742
00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:19,359
Speaker 1: that's true, but I do think it speaks to like

743
00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:23,439
Speaker 1: when what happens when people feel entitled to information, even

744
00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:27,040
Speaker 1: sensitive health information about people they don't know, in a

745
00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:33,279
Speaker 1: climate where information feels so tenuous, so easily manipulated. In

746
00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:36,200
Speaker 1: my research for this episode, I did see like a

747
00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:41,440
Speaker 1: level of entitlement around information and like ownership of people's

748
00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:44,440
Speaker 1: public selves that I just did not think was healthy.

749
00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:47,439
Speaker 1: And it is clearly gendered, like it is will link

750
00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:49,640
Speaker 1: to a study, but it is very well documented that

751
00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:54,600
Speaker 1: women public figures face greater criticism than male public figures,

752
00:40:54,920 --> 00:41:00,000
Speaker 1: particularly around like health and well being. Like attitudes around

753
00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:02,880
Speaker 1: health and well being are incredibly gendered. So it feels

754
00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:09,480
Speaker 1: like a biased, unfair, not equitable conversation in general to

755
00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:10,719
Speaker 1: be speculating on.

756
00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:13,120
Speaker 2: And I do think.

757
00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:19,320
Speaker 1: There's this like strange parasocial thing that happens with the Royals,

758
00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:21,480
Speaker 1: like when I was doing research for this episode. This

759
00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:24,480
Speaker 1: British tabloid journalist Liz Jones published this piece when Kate

760
00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:28,200
Speaker 1: first left the public eye. The title is this feels personal.

761
00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:30,200
Speaker 1: The news Kate is in the hospital has hit me

762
00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:32,640
Speaker 1: like a young member of my family has been struck down.

763
00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:36,160
Speaker 1: That is a wild piece to publish that. The fact

764
00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:38,759
Speaker 1: that was the title of a piece is wild to

765
00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:40,480
Speaker 1: me because she's not a member of your family. You

766
00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:44,520
Speaker 1: don't even know this person. It is wild to publish

767
00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:46,960
Speaker 1: a piece about how this is a personal drama for you,

768
00:41:48,040 --> 00:41:50,479
Speaker 1: the health issues of someone that you have never even met.

769
00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:53,440
Speaker 2: And so I think that this is another thing that.

770
00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:56,600
Speaker 1: People are just starting to question, along with these archaic

771
00:41:57,040 --> 00:42:02,120
Speaker 1: social and political, you know, rule parties. I think people

772
00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:05,160
Speaker 1: are starting to ask questions about this level of parasocial

773
00:42:05,239 --> 00:42:08,440
Speaker 1: scrutiny and is it healthy and is it something that we,

774
00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:12,480
Speaker 1: you know, and by we I mean institutions media journalists

775
00:42:12,520 --> 00:42:13,240
Speaker 1: should even.

776
00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:13,799
Speaker 2: Be contributing to.

777
00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:16,960
Speaker 1: And this is just my opinion as like a casual

778
00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:19,400
Speaker 1: observer of all of this, is that, you know, I

779
00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:22,440
Speaker 1: obviously thought that the scrutiny that Megan Markle faced was

780
00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:25,200
Speaker 1: not Okay, it was really gendered and racist because she's

781
00:42:25,239 --> 00:42:25,800
Speaker 1: a black woman.

782
00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:28,520
Speaker 2: And I think that you when you take her as

783
00:42:28,560 --> 00:42:30,160
Speaker 2: this figure that people love.

784
00:42:30,040 --> 00:42:31,960
Speaker 1: To pick apart and beat up on in this really

785
00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:35,640
Speaker 1: charged way, when you remove her from that conversation and

786
00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:37,879
Speaker 1: all of that scrutiny is sort of being put on Kate,

787
00:42:38,239 --> 00:42:41,719
Speaker 1: I think it becomes clear like just how much that

788
00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:43,720
Speaker 1: scrutiny is, like how much that weighs?

789
00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:43,960
Speaker 2: You know?

790
00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:47,400
Speaker 1: Although I will say, in researching this episode, I did

791
00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:51,200
Speaker 1: see a few pieces where they quote like sources close

792
00:42:51,239 --> 00:42:54,680
Speaker 1: to Kate who basically blame Megan Markle for what's going

793
00:42:54,719 --> 00:42:57,560
Speaker 1: on with Kate, or like, oh, all those horrible interviews

794
00:42:57,560 --> 00:42:59,839
Speaker 1: that Megan mark will put out and Kate just has

795
00:42:59,880 --> 00:43:02,520
Speaker 1: to wait to see when the next horrible Megan Markle

796
00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:03,560
Speaker 1: interview will drop.

797
00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:05,120
Speaker 2: That would make anybody ill.

798
00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:07,600
Speaker 1: And so it's like, damn, even when Meghan Markle is

799
00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:09,800
Speaker 1: not even in the mix anymore, you guys cannot help

800
00:43:10,080 --> 00:43:13,279
Speaker 1: blaming her. You cannot help like keeping her name in

801
00:43:13,360 --> 00:43:15,120
Speaker 1: your mouth even when she is not there.

802
00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:18,440
Speaker 3: My god, Yeah, well, I mean, like you said, it's gendered.

803
00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:20,560
Speaker 3: It's just focused on the two women.

804
00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:25,120
Speaker 1: Exactly, like gendered and racialized because it obviously frames Meghan

805
00:43:25,239 --> 00:43:28,160
Speaker 1: as like being to blame, not to mention that you

806
00:43:28,239 --> 00:43:31,200
Speaker 1: have the same media figures who like would write these

807
00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:36,040
Speaker 1: really nasty racist pieces about Meghan now saying oh, Kate

808
00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:39,280
Speaker 1: deserves privacy and empathy, you know, the double standard becomes

809
00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:43,280
Speaker 1: really obvious, and let's be clear, both of them deserve

810
00:43:43,600 --> 00:43:47,399
Speaker 1: that same empathy and privacy. So just a side note

811
00:43:47,480 --> 00:43:50,840
Speaker 1: is that my girl Sophie from Cool Zone Media and

812
00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:53,239
Speaker 1: I were talking about this via text yesterday that she

813
00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:56,080
Speaker 1: was like, isn't it funny how people are saying Megan

814
00:43:56,120 --> 00:43:59,080
Speaker 1: Markell needs to speak up for Kate and what a

815
00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:02,359
Speaker 1: bad take, Like, she sure doesn't. If she doesn't want

816
00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:04,040
Speaker 1: to get involved in this and just wants to mind

817
00:44:04,040 --> 00:44:07,200
Speaker 1: her business, she absolutely should. The idea that she should

818
00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:10,120
Speaker 1: be like sticking up for anybody to me is wild

819
00:44:10,160 --> 00:44:14,160
Speaker 1: and just like really confirm some of my thoughts about

820
00:44:14,640 --> 00:44:17,400
Speaker 1: the how people feel owed to the labor and like

821
00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:20,520
Speaker 1: public morality of black women sometimes even when they have

822
00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:23,440
Speaker 1: done nothing to earn that. Uh So, yeah, all of

823
00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:25,200
Speaker 1: this is to say, I do I think that we

824
00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:28,560
Speaker 1: are really in an interesting space when it comes to

825
00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:31,000
Speaker 1: both the royals, how we think about them, how we

826
00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:33,399
Speaker 1: talk about them, how we think and talk about these

827
00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:39,200
Speaker 1: these archaic ruling systems in general, and what all of

828
00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:41,600
Speaker 1: that means in twenty twenty four in the context of

829
00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:46,200
Speaker 1: things like generative AI, photo manipulation, and medium manipulation. More broadly, Like,

830
00:44:46,239 --> 00:44:48,320
Speaker 1: I don't really have the answers, but it does seem

831
00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:52,640
Speaker 1: like this feels like a line in the sand for

832
00:44:52,719 --> 00:44:55,640
Speaker 1: the fact that people are really asking these questions and

833
00:44:55,680 --> 00:44:59,080
Speaker 1: that the party line of you will accept the reality

834
00:44:59,080 --> 00:45:01,040
Speaker 1: that we present to you and you will not question

835
00:45:01,120 --> 00:45:03,080
Speaker 1: that is not working for any of us.

836
00:45:03,280 --> 00:45:05,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, it'll be real curious that, you know, a year

837
00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:07,080
Speaker 3: or two from now to look back and see like,

838
00:45:08,160 --> 00:45:11,200
Speaker 3: was this that kind of event that was you know,

839
00:45:11,239 --> 00:45:13,640
Speaker 3: something of an inflection point about how we think about

840
00:45:14,160 --> 00:45:18,560
Speaker 3: photos and evidence and news sources, And maybe it will

841
00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:22,719
Speaker 3: you know, it's it's kind of an optimistic note to

842
00:45:22,840 --> 00:45:24,880
Speaker 3: end on we we often it's often a lot of

843
00:45:24,960 --> 00:45:29,600
Speaker 3: doom and gloom on this show. But yeah, maybe this

844
00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:31,560
Speaker 3: is a sign of better things to come.

845
00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:33,040
Speaker 2: I'm hopeful about it.

846
00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:36,400
Speaker 1: And y'all, again, I am not the royal expert, so

847
00:45:36,480 --> 00:45:38,600
Speaker 1: I want to hear from you. Maybe we'll do a

848
00:45:38,640 --> 00:45:41,120
Speaker 1: follow up episode with your takes and your thoughts, so like,

849
00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:43,919
Speaker 1: please reach out to us, you want to hear them,

850
00:45:44,600 --> 00:45:47,240
Speaker 1: let me know what you think about all of this. Yeah,

851
00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:48,040
Speaker 1: thanks for listening.

852
00:45:48,280 --> 00:45:51,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, Bridget, How can people let you know their thoughts

853
00:45:51,360 --> 00:45:51,960
Speaker 3: and takes?

854
00:45:52,239 --> 00:45:52,439
Speaker 2: Oh?

855
00:45:52,480 --> 00:45:55,720
Speaker 1: You can find me on email at hello at tangoia

856
00:45:55,719 --> 00:45:59,440
Speaker 1: dot com. You can find me on threads at Bridget

857
00:45:59,520 --> 00:46:01,799
Speaker 1: Marie and I think my thread's name is the same

858
00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:05,240
Speaker 1: as my Instagram handle. You can find me on blue

859
00:46:05,239 --> 00:46:09,080
Speaker 1: Sky at Bridget Todd. You can try to find me

860
00:46:09,120 --> 00:46:10,760
Speaker 1: on Twitter, although I'm not really there anymore.

861
00:46:11,719 --> 00:46:13,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, hit me up. I want to know your thoughts.

862
00:46:19,480 --> 00:46:21,560
Speaker 1: If you're looking for ways to support the show, check

863
00:46:21,560 --> 00:46:24,200
Speaker 1: out our merch store at tangoti dot com slash store.

864
00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:27,440
Speaker 1: Got a story about an interesting thing in tech, or

865
00:46:27,520 --> 00:46:29,360
Speaker 1: just want to say hi? You can reach us at

866
00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:32,120
Speaker 1: hello at tegodi dot com. You can also find transcripts

867
00:46:32,120 --> 00:46:34,560
Speaker 1: for today's episode at tengody dot com. There Are No

868
00:46:34,640 --> 00:46:36,680
Speaker 1: Girls on the Internet was created by Me Bridget Toad.

869
00:46:37,080 --> 00:46:40,239
Speaker 1: It's a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative edited by

870
00:46:40,320 --> 00:46:44,360
Speaker 1: Joey Pat Jonathan Strickland as our executive producer. Tarry Harrison

871
00:46:44,440 --> 00:46:47,239
Speaker 1: is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Almada is our

872
00:46:47,239 --> 00:46:50,319
Speaker 1: contributing producer. I'm your host, bridget Toad. If you want

873
00:46:50,320 --> 00:46:52,719
Speaker 1: to help us grow, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts.

874
00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:56,319
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875
00:46:56,360 --> 00:46:58,680
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

876
00:47:00,160 --> 00:47:02,200
Speaker 4: I have very w