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Speaker 1: You gotta let the players know that the world is

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Speaker 1: changing for them. They're the ones on the field, they're

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Speaker 1: the ones playing your game. They are your product.

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Speaker 2: Let's hit the inside scoop with FT senior insider Ken Rosenthal. Ken,

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Speaker 2: great story, really really well put together by you and

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Speaker 2: the team over at the Athletics. So what can you

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Speaker 2: tell us about it? And also, were you as shocked

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Speaker 2: as I was when you first started hearing about this

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Speaker 2: and the lack of communication with the league and everyone

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Speaker 2: else involved in actually playing the sport.

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Speaker 1: Yes, And I'll give you the genesis of this. During

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Speaker 1: spring training, where maybe it was recently, it was actually

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Speaker 1: more recently than that. Players came to Jason Stark and said, Hey,

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Speaker 1: something's up with the zone and it's smaller, it's different.

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Speaker 3: We don't get it.

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Speaker 1: Can you look into this? So Jason started looking into

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Speaker 1: it and found that, yes, there is a difference in

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Speaker 1: the buffer zone part of the well, it's not even

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Speaker 1: part of the strike zone. It's around the strike zone.

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Speaker 1: It's been reduced from two inches all the way around

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Speaker 1: to three quarters of an inch all the way around.

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Speaker 1: This was something that was agreed to by MLB and

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Speaker 1: the umpires in the umpire's newest CBA. So okay, we'll

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Speaker 1: get to that in a second and why they did

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Speaker 1: it and the effects of it, but part of the

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Speaker 1: story is about how, yes, as you mentioned, Scott, it

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Speaker 1: took so many people by surprise. Now, MLB claims that

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Speaker 1: it communicated it properly to pretty much all the parties involved,

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Speaker 1: and that may be true in MLB's eyes, but clearly

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Speaker 1: there was a breakdown in communication at some point here

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Speaker 1: because we talked to club officials that were not aware

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Speaker 1: of this, We talked to managers as you quoted that

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Speaker 1: we're not aware of this. We have players on the

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Speaker 1: record and managers on the record saying this kind of

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Speaker 1: took them by surprise, not kind of took them by surprise.

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Speaker 1: So that to me is one thing here, But the

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Speaker 1: overriding thing, really, the most important thing for the sake

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Speaker 1: of the game, is that this is a good thing.

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Speaker 1: It's a good thing because the rule book strike zone

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Speaker 1: is going to be called more accurately when you shrink

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Speaker 1: the size of the buffer zone. And let me explain

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Speaker 1: with that is the buffer zone is the area that,

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Speaker 1: as I said, is a couple of inches or was

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Speaker 1: around the strike zone. But that was an area in

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Speaker 1: which an umpire, if he had a missed call in

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Speaker 1: that area, it would not count against him in the evaluation.

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Speaker 1: And that was the change in the umpire CBA that, yes,

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Speaker 1: the buffer zone would shrink, and that was an area

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Speaker 1: in which they could be judged less harshly if they

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Speaker 1: missed a call there. But they felt this would get

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Speaker 1: closer to the rule book definition of the strike zone,

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Speaker 1: and everyone agreed with it. So umpires agreed to be

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Speaker 1: evaluated differently. But that has caused a change in the

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Speaker 1: way the game is being played now. MLB says it's

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Speaker 1: not a significant change. The player that we talked to

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Speaker 1: said maybe not, but it's certainly something. And I talked

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Speaker 1: to some front office people as well, who said, hey, hey,

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Speaker 1: wait a second, because the zone is being called tighter,

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Speaker 1: we have to change our framing models. We have to

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Speaker 1: look at things completely differently. Maybe we have to get

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Speaker 1: more patient hitters because there are fewer strikes being thrown now. Again,

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Speaker 1: MLB insists that there are not fewer strikes being thrown

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Speaker 1: and that it's essentially a wash, but it's just an

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Speaker 1: interesting story from the perspective of one. This change has

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Speaker 1: taken place and the change was made in order to

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Speaker 1: get the strike zone called more accurately and consistently. Good thing.

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Speaker 1: The issue is that obviously a lot of people who

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Speaker 1: should have known about it didn't know about it. Despite

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Speaker 1: MLB's claims that yes, we told them about it.

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Speaker 4: You make a lot of really good points. Now my

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Speaker 4: question to you be I know you've talked to some players.

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Speaker 4: Have you talked to catchers specifically about this, because it's

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Speaker 4: not only pitchers, but also catchers are the ones that

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Speaker 4: are getting away with some kind of frames and all

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Speaker 4: that kind of stuff, like is it changing the way

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Speaker 4: they're catching now?

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Speaker 1: I don't know that we asked that question specifically, but

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Speaker 1: Travis Darnaut is quoted in the article as saying everyone's

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Speaker 1: zone has shrunk, and that is clearly what has happened here. Now,

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Speaker 1: it's not again a change in the definition of the

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Speaker 1: strike zone. It's really important to know that the actual

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Speaker 1: strike zone, by the rule book is exactly the same.

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Speaker 1: The difference is in that buffer zone in which umpires

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Speaker 1: are allowed to essentially miss. That zone has shrunk from

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Speaker 1: two inches around, as I said, to three quarters of

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Speaker 1: an inch round, and that's where the difference is from

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Speaker 1: before so we did not ask catchers specifically about the

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Speaker 1: framing aspect, but club officials told us, yes, we've changed

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Speaker 1: our framing models in the ways we've evaluated catchers or

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Speaker 1: started to evaluate a catchers because we have noticed a difference.

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Speaker 1: One team told me in the last two weeks, they've

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Speaker 1: been starting at ask these questions, what's going on? How

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Speaker 1: do we adapt? Clearly teams were caught by surprise.

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Speaker 3: Why does Major League Baseball feel like rules implementations or

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Speaker 3: stuff like this, like implementing things that actually affect the

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Speaker 3: game don't need to be not more negotiated, But just

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Speaker 3: is it a big brother complex by Major League Baseball

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Speaker 3: or is it a avoiding or is it avoiding confrontation and

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Speaker 3: we're just trying to do what's best for the game,

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Speaker 3: and yet they're hurting it.

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Speaker 1: Eric, I don't know the answer to that. My thinking

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Speaker 1: here is what should have happened is that MLB, much

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Speaker 1: like it did when it rolled out ABS and spring training,

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Speaker 1: should have put this out there in the public saying, hey,

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Speaker 1: here's what's going on. This is what they did with ABS.

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Speaker 1: It was very clear, it was very well publicized. Here's

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Speaker 1: what it's going to be this spring we're testing it,

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Speaker 1: et cetera. They should have done the same with this said. Listen,

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Speaker 1: here's what's going on. We're shrinking the buffer zone. The

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Speaker 1: goal of shrinking the buffer zone is to make the

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Speaker 1: calls by umpires at home plate on balls and strikes

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Speaker 1: more consistent, more accurate. That's the goal. It's a goal

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Speaker 1: that's being accomplished. You see the accuracies numbers right there.

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Speaker 1: MLB says, this is the most accurate balls and strikes

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Speaker 1: have been called in the stackcast era.

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Speaker 3: This is a good thing.

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Speaker 1: This is something that yes, pictures would have objected to

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Speaker 1: and will object to, because obviously it's harder to throw

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Speaker 1: a strike or a call strike. But at the same time,

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Speaker 1: hitters love it. Obviously they want the zone called more accurately,

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Speaker 1: and it's something that all fans could understand and embrace

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Speaker 1: if it was just presented that way. And the mere

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Speaker 1: fact that so many people who should have known say

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Speaker 1: they didn't know. That's a problem, and it's a problem

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Speaker 1: MLB might not want to acknowledge, but it's a problem,

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Speaker 1: and you're right, Eric, it undermines which should be a

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Speaker 1: good thing. More consistent and accurate bull shtrike calls.

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Speaker 3: Is this a forward thinking by MLB by saying, hey,

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Speaker 3: we're transitting, most likely transitioning to the challenge system. And

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Speaker 3: I know this was put out in the winter meeting,

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Speaker 3: so this was even before the Challenge system was implemented

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Speaker 3: in the spring training. Is this going to make it

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Speaker 3: an easier transition to the challenge system or is it? Hey,

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Speaker 3: if we shrink this, umpires are getting it right. Maybe

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Speaker 3: we don't need the challenge system.

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Speaker 1: No, I expect we're going to have the Challenge system.

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Speaker 1: And I'm not sure this was done at all with

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Speaker 1: ABS in mind. It seems to me that it was

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Speaker 1: done simply to get balls and strikes called more accurately.

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Speaker 1: Now the zone with ABS is going to be more stringent.

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Speaker 1: I guess you would say, right, at least we'll have

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Speaker 1: a very defined zone as we do now, but it

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Speaker 1: is defined by written words as opposed to a machine,

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Speaker 1: so I don't think the two are linked. But at

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Speaker 1: the same time, it raises questions for ABS as well.

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Speaker 1: Is there going to be in a buffer zone with ABS?

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Speaker 1: How is this going to work? And we'll ask those

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Speaker 1: questions at the appropriate time.

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Speaker 2: And I mean, the league's been around for a while

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Speaker 2: they've got plenty of pr This shouldn't have just been

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Speaker 2: a memo to players, teams, coaches, et cetera. It should

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Speaker 2: have been announced to everyone. We're fans of the game,

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Speaker 2: just let us know. This would have been great offseason talk.

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Speaker 2: And it's a positive story. So that part is crazy

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Speaker 2: to me. Ken, I'm wondering if there's any aftermath to this.

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Speaker 2: I know you got to comment here too, but if

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Speaker 2: if anybody you know you think he's going to complain,

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Speaker 2: because there's probably some people that figured this out the

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Speaker 2: first week of the season. Now there's some people that

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Speaker 2: are learning about this on May second.

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Speaker 1: I don't know what the aftermath is going to be,

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Speaker 1: if any I can't predict that.

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Speaker 3: Scott, Now, ask.

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Speaker 1: For what you're saying about putting this out there, because

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Speaker 1: obviously it's had an effect the league. This position is

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Speaker 1: it's not that meaningful an impact, and they were basically

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Speaker 1: saying it's not that big a deal. It's a change, yes,

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Speaker 1: but it's improved the ball strike accuracy, and it's not

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Speaker 1: that it's not something that should be sensatialized in their mind,

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Speaker 1: not something that is that big a thing. Okay, but

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Speaker 1: I'm with you, Scott, why not be more transparent, Why

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Speaker 1: not put it out there? What do you have to

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Speaker 1: be ashamed about here? You're doing something good. You're trying

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Speaker 1: to make the game better. Tell people, I don't really

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Speaker 1: understand the problem.

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Speaker 2: It is not the CIA, this is not some covert operation.

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Speaker 2: This is just like you talked about unfair tiretury the

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Speaker 2: other day. This is baseball. This is entertainment, and this

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Speaker 2: is a good story. And for fans or anybody the

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Speaker 2: league that doesn't think that this is something that affects everyone,

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Speaker 2: you should read the story. There's game planning, pitch sequencing,

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Speaker 2: everything right. People just want to know what the rules

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Speaker 2: are and how umps are being evaluated. Plays into that

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Speaker 2: so much so that there's an ump that told a player, oh,

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Speaker 2: did you hear about the strike zone change? What do

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Speaker 2: you think about that? Even just the way he phrased it,

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Speaker 2: I think tells the story of how the umps have

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Speaker 2: to think about how they're evaluating the zone. That's why

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Speaker 2: to me, it's such a big deal. Krat's what you got.

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Speaker 3: Well, I mean you talk about game plans. I just

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Speaker 3: was thinking about what you said. There is a paper

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Speaker 3: hung up for a left handed batter and a right

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Speaker 3: handed batter, how umpire zones change, not that they would

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Speaker 3: have been able to build that model before the season,

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Speaker 3: and that model is always changing, but it's based on thousands,

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Speaker 3: tens of thousands of pitches and that's hung up before

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Speaker 3: every game, along with the pitcher scouting report too. So

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Speaker 3: if people think I don't really pay attention to it,

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Speaker 3: there's somebody that has that job for sure. Ken, do

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Speaker 3: you think do you think this improves the chances of

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Speaker 3: or I shouldn't say improved because that sounds like I

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Speaker 3: want to work stoppage. Does this increase the chances of

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Speaker 3: a work stoppage?

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Speaker 1: I won't go that far. To me, Eric, the chances

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Speaker 1: of a stoppage are high regardless of this. What I

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Speaker 1: will say is this that throughout the game's history, since

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Speaker 1: the inception of the Union, there has been obviously labor tension,

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Speaker 1: and one of the manifestations of that tension has been

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Speaker 1: a disconnect at times between the league office and players

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Speaker 1: as represented by the Union. This to me kind of

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Speaker 1: shows that there's still a disconnect, or at least in

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Speaker 1: this example, there was a disconnect, and it doesn't seem

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Speaker 1: to me, and this is my opinion now it doesn't

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Speaker 1: seem to me that players were taken into account enough here.

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Speaker 1: And the league can say, yes, we communicated to the clubs,

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Speaker 1: we tried to communicate to the players. We did this,

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Speaker 1: We did it properly. They can say that, but it

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Speaker 1: didn't happen, or at least didn't happen successfully enough. And

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Speaker 1: one of the criticisms the league has faced from players

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Speaker 1: is they don't have a feel for us, They don't

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Speaker 1: get it, and at times that has been a fair criticism.

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Speaker 1: In this particular case, it seems to me that it

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Speaker 1: is a fair criticism as well. They just did not

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Speaker 1: see that. If you're going to do something, even if

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Speaker 1: you think it's small, even if you think it's good,

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Speaker 1: and it is, you gotta let the players know that

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Speaker 1: the world is changing for them. They're the ones on

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Speaker 1: the field, they're the ones playing your game. They are

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Speaker 1: your product, and they have to be taken into full

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Speaker 1: account and full consideration.

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Speaker 4: Now, let's talk a little bit about some baseball teams here.

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Speaker 4: The Texas Rangers ranked twenty eighth right now and run

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Speaker 4: scored per game. We didn't really see that one coming,

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Speaker 4: if you want the truth, and they just demoted Jake

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Speaker 4: Berger and brought up Blaine Krim right now, so talk

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Speaker 4: a little bit about, you know, what they're gonna do

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Speaker 4: with Jake and how Blaine is gonna, you know, help

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Speaker 4: this team out at first base.

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Speaker 1: Their general manager Chris Young earlier this week told the

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Speaker 1: Dallas Morning News that he was edgy about their offense

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Speaker 1: and rifle. So now we talked about this unfair territory yesterday.

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Speaker 1: You don't often hear GM talk like that, and yet

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Speaker 1: his frustration was clear. He made other comments as well

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Speaker 1: about the offense and indicated that, yes, we have some

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Speaker 1: players at Triple A we might look at Blaine Krim

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Speaker 1: is one of those players. He's hit every level of

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Speaker 1: the minor leagues. He's twenty seven. I believe he's not

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Speaker 1: really a prospect in that sense, but he's a guy

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Speaker 1: they want to give a chance to. And the way

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Speaker 1: this was portrayed to me is that with Jake Berger,

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Speaker 1: this is simply a reset. He'll be down for a

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Speaker 1: little bit then come back. Clearly, Jake Berger was one

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Speaker 1: of the Rangers' biggest off season acquisitions, along with Jock Peterson,

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Speaker 1: who also has struggled, and they're trying to find ways

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Speaker 1: to kickstart this offense. And it's really interesting because, yes,

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Speaker 1: last year they took a step back offensively, and the

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Speaker 1: reasons that they acquired guys like Berger and Peterson was

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Speaker 1: to hopefully get the offense going again. Hasn't happened. Things.

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Speaker 1: They've dropped Marcus Simeon in the order, he's starting to hit. Finally,

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Speaker 1: they basically bench Leoti Tavaris the center fielder. So far

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Speaker 1: it's not working. They just had a tough series against

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Speaker 1: the A's at home, lost two of three. So this

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Speaker 1: is a team to watch, and their general manager Chris

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Speaker 1: Young has clearly demonstrated he's not going to wait around

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Speaker 1: and simply say hey, back of the baseball cards. Guys

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Speaker 1: will come around. No, he's doing things.

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Speaker 3: Ken, I'm over three on my questions with getting you

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Speaker 3: to know what the answers are, So maybe you know

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Speaker 3: what this answer is when you talk to Chris Young,

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Speaker 3: did he allude to anything with fastballs because they brought

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Speaker 3: over John Peterson and Jake Berger because they were elite

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Speaker 3: at hitting fastballs. Their numbers on fastballs this year are atrocious.

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Speaker 3: Job Peterson's hitting forty one on fastballs. Jake Berger had

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Speaker 3: a nine to twenty one ops last year. On fastballs

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Speaker 3: this year, he has a four to sixty ops. Does

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Speaker 3: he feel like these players are getting moved or maybe

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Speaker 3: did he mention anything about about, hey, what are we

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Speaker 3: doing as far as like a team a coaching staff

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Speaker 3: of learning to hit the fastball.

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Speaker 1: His interview was with Evan Grant of the Dallas Morning News,

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Speaker 1: so that was where his comments were. And yes, definitely

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Speaker 1: fastballs have been an issue for them and it's been

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Speaker 1: something that they've tried to correct with those acquisitions that

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Speaker 1: you just mentioned now. In the article that Evan wrote,

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Speaker 1: basically he said, once you get through making player moves,

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Speaker 1: once you drop guys in the lineup, demote players to

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Speaker 1: triple A, bring up other players, and that doesn't work,

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Speaker 1: then the only thing left are staffing changes. And Evan

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Speaker 1: pointed out in the article that Bruce bochi in twenty

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Speaker 1: eight years as a manager has never fired a coach

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Speaker 1: at midseason. Now, the front office would be the one

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Speaker 1: doing it most likely, but the point was this doesn't

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Speaker 1: happen under Boacie, So if it did happen this year,

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Speaker 1: that would be an even more dramatic example of how

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Speaker 1: this team is trying to get itself going. And we'll

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Speaker 1: just have to see what happens. They need to start hitting, period.

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Speaker 1: That's what Saw solves all the problems. Is always the

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Speaker 1: case in baseball, right guys. If you're not winning, if

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Speaker 1: you're not hitting, if you're not pitching, well, do better

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Speaker 1: and things will change. The noise will stop. That's the

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Speaker 1: case here as well.

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Speaker 2: Hey, Ken, let's finish with the series you've got coming

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Speaker 2: up this weekend on Fox. You'll be part of Dodgers Braves,

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Speaker 2: which is a great heavy weaight tilt. Okay, so I'll

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Speaker 2: do one on each. So let's start with the Dodgers

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Speaker 2: twenty one to ten, best record in a very competitive

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Speaker 2: National League West, but not by much. And I know

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Speaker 2: we're only a month into the season, but we've talked

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Speaker 2: about how there are multiple other teams in this division

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Speaker 2: playing well. What do you think about the way that

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Speaker 2: the Dodgers are trying to get through the marathon to

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Speaker 2: load up as best as possible for October and the

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Speaker 2: potential chance that it could cause some problems at some

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Speaker 2: point if one of these teams gets hot.

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Speaker 1: It's a really interesting question, Scott, and they obviously are

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Speaker 1: running their team and pointing toward October. Everything they do

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Speaker 1: points toward October, and yet there's a regular season to play,

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Speaker 1: and while it's more likely than not they're going to

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Speaker 1: make the playoffs, even in this kind of half state

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Speaker 1: that they're in, this weird state that they're in. They're

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Speaker 1: twenty one and ten, as you mentioned, they're leading the division.

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Speaker 1: They're the best team. But at some point they're going

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Speaker 1: to want to turn it up a little bit too.

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Speaker 1: And it's understandable for a team coming off a World

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Speaker 1: Series to have injuries. It's understandable when that team doesn't

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Speaker 1: really necessarily fire on all cylinders right away. There's something

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Speaker 1: of a hangover and effect that takes place with teams.

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Speaker 1: But it's going to be really interesting to see when

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Speaker 1: Dave Roberts in the front office kind of puts the

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Speaker 1: pedal to the medal a little bit and says, hey,

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Speaker 1: we got to go here. They have succeeded and done

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Speaker 1: very well, not really doing that, but at some point

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Speaker 1: that focus, that intensity is going to need to come back.

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Speaker 1: And I'm not saying they're not trying. Of course they're trying,

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Speaker 1: but there's a different level and you can't expect it

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Speaker 1: to be the same. Sitting here on May sewid you

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Speaker 1: couldn't have expected it in April. I don't know that

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Speaker 1: you can expect it in June. But as we go

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Speaker 1: forward and as we get to the postseason or closer

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Speaker 1: to it, certainly at that point the Dodgers are going

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Speaker 1: to have to turn it up, and we'll want to

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Speaker 1: turn it up, and are quite capable of turning it up.

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Speaker 2: Oh, no doubt about it. My only thought process is

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Speaker 2: that there could be a disaster scenario where a few

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Speaker 2: things go wrong for your team, another team starts to

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Speaker 2: make a run, and then you're like, wait, all of

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Speaker 2: a sudden, we might not take this division, and we

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Speaker 2: always take this division. So I think that part strategically

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Speaker 2: could be interesting. And then the other side here real quick,

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Speaker 2: the Braves, they're fourteen and sixteen. I keep looking at

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Speaker 2: them with zero panic. I know Strider only gave then

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Speaker 2: one start. He's going to come back, Akuna is going

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Speaker 2: to come back. I gotta give this team some credit.

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Speaker 2: They're hovering around the five hundred range. So what do

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Speaker 2: you think about the Braves heading into this series.

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Speaker 1: They're interesting, and they're interesting because some things have happened,

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Speaker 1: even beyond the injury Scott, that they didn't expect Nick Allen.

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Speaker 1: It's shortstop Alex Verdugo playing in the outfield, Eli White

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Speaker 1: assuming a prominent role here. So they've kind of adjusted

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Speaker 1: on the fly already, and clearly in the end they're

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Speaker 1: going to need their stars to be stars, and Riley

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Speaker 1: and Olsen and Murphy, those guys have done better of

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Speaker 1: Lake Chrysales come on a little bit lately as well,

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Speaker 1: so I'm not worried about them. But it's a different

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Speaker 1: team and I would expect that even after Kunya and

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Speaker 1: Stryder come back, they're going to need to make some

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Speaker 1: adjustments along the way, probably the deadline. Their bullpen is

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Speaker 1: a huge question right now, especially with Iglesias struggling, and

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Speaker 1: that was something they didn't anticipate. So, as always, every

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Speaker 1: year is different, every season is different. That's true for

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Speaker 1: the Dodgers, and it's true for the Braves. It's true

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Speaker 1: for every team, and we'll just have to see how

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Speaker 1: they evolve. They kind of came back nicely from that

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Speaker 1: five and thirteen start they did. They were covered well.

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Speaker 1: Now they go forward and see what they can be.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, this could be a statement series. I know it's early,

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Speaker 2: and we've seen some good Dodgers Braves matchups in the

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Speaker 2: past few years too. So we'll see Ken enjoy the

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Speaker 2: weekend and we'll be watching Yon Fox on Saturday. And

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Speaker 2: thanks for the time, and I encourage everyone to check

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Speaker 2: out the article in The Athletic on the shrinking zone evaluation.

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Speaker 2: We just barely scratched the surface. Thanks Ken, Thanks guys.

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Speaker 2: Also Fair Territory from yesterday hitting a bunch of other

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Speaker 2: topics with Ken and special guest host Tricia Whitaker, who

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Speaker 2: did a great job. So check that out wherever you

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Speaker 2: get your pods, plus on the ft YouTube channel which

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Speaker 2: is close to one hundred and ten thousand subs, so

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Speaker 2: doing well there.

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Speaker 1: Yeah,