1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:24,640 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. M Hello, 4 00:00:24,680 --> 00:00:26,720 Speaker 1: and welcome back to the show. My name is Noel. 5 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:32,120 Speaker 1: Our good friend and compatriot Matt Frederick is on adventures today, 6 00:00:32,760 --> 00:00:35,840 Speaker 1: but we will have someone filling in and you could 7 00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:38,960 Speaker 1: say they called me Ben. We are joined with our 8 00:00:39,080 --> 00:00:43,280 Speaker 1: super producer, Paul Mission Controlled Decans. Most importantly, you are you. 9 00:00:43,280 --> 00:00:46,280 Speaker 1: You are here, and that makes this stuff they don't 10 00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:49,200 Speaker 1: want you to know a very trippy episode. This episode 11 00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:51,400 Speaker 1: is a trippy treat and it is something that's been 12 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:53,000 Speaker 1: a long time in the worst because we've talked with 13 00:00:53,120 --> 00:00:55,680 Speaker 1: danced around this subject for years back as far as 14 00:00:55,720 --> 00:00:58,080 Speaker 1: the videos. I don't know if we danced around is 15 00:00:58,120 --> 00:01:00,680 Speaker 1: there Matt and I did this that time, you know. 16 00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:02,000 Speaker 1: And that's why I was such a bummer that Matt 17 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:04,200 Speaker 1: couldn't be here today because this is something that's very 18 00:01:04,240 --> 00:01:06,200 Speaker 1: near and dear to him. So I hope we did 19 00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:08,679 Speaker 1: him proud with what you're about to hear him. Oh yes, yes, 20 00:01:08,760 --> 00:01:14,200 Speaker 1: we um. We are joined today by a very special guest, 21 00:01:14,319 --> 00:01:19,080 Speaker 1: the physicist parapsychologist and pioneer in the field of remote 22 00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:25,760 Speaker 1: viewing Russell Targ and Russell Targ has been instrumental in 23 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:29,720 Speaker 1: UH in the way that we not just as people 24 00:01:29,840 --> 00:01:34,679 Speaker 1: but as governments understand the phenomenon they call remote viewing. Right. 25 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:38,600 Speaker 1: He's perhaps best known in terms of this work for 26 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:42,039 Speaker 1: his time with Stanford Research Institute, which I believe was 27 00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:45,480 Speaker 1: endowed by Stanford University and then spun off into a 28 00:01:45,480 --> 00:01:49,760 Speaker 1: completely independent entity in the early seventies. Targ got his 29 00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:53,080 Speaker 1: start in the hard science of lasers and then parlayed 30 00:01:53,160 --> 00:01:57,280 Speaker 1: that fascination with research and optics, and honestly, it was 31 00:01:57,280 --> 00:01:59,520 Speaker 1: an experiential thing for him to start because of his 32 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:02,720 Speaker 1: faculties with his own vision, and he sort of took 33 00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:07,400 Speaker 1: that UH and turned it into this pursuit, lifelong pursuit 34 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:10,560 Speaker 1: of being able to project yourself out of yourself and 35 00:02:10,600 --> 00:02:13,160 Speaker 1: being able to teach people how to do this. And 36 00:02:13,240 --> 00:02:16,640 Speaker 1: this is not a conspiracy theory. Dare we say there's 37 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:18,720 Speaker 1: aspect of this that isn't a conspiracy at all. This 38 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:21,680 Speaker 1: is has been declassified. Was a thing the c I 39 00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:26,000 Speaker 1: A participated in and funded actively. Long time listeners, you 40 00:02:26,080 --> 00:02:30,400 Speaker 1: will be familiar with many of the players involved and 41 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:34,320 Speaker 1: certainly a lot of the phenomena involved. But today we 42 00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:39,320 Speaker 1: are going directly to the source. We recently had a 43 00:02:39,440 --> 00:02:43,600 Speaker 1: chance to sit down with Russell Targ ourselves, well sit 44 00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:47,960 Speaker 1: down in the podcast sense, and get a first hand 45 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:50,880 Speaker 1: description of the evolution of s r I, the nuts 46 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:54,919 Speaker 1: and bolts of remote viewing research, and possibly a look 47 00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:57,200 Speaker 1: into the future, although we say there's not much of 48 00:02:57,200 --> 00:03:00,160 Speaker 1: a difference. And Russell Targ was also instrumental in the 49 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:03,520 Speaker 1: production of a film that is out now called Third 50 00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:06,640 Speaker 1: Eye Spies that goes into the history of his work 51 00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:09,360 Speaker 1: with the CIA. Some mysteries along the way that are 52 00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:11,360 Speaker 1: almost outside of the scope of this conversation, but I 53 00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:14,799 Speaker 1: think you'll see them in future episodes and more. And so, 54 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:19,240 Speaker 1: without further ado, Russell Targ, thank you so much for 55 00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:22,880 Speaker 1: taking the time to come on the show with us today. 56 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:26,119 Speaker 1: I believe one of our the first questions that our 57 00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:31,760 Speaker 1: audience will have will be a biographical or personal question. Uh. 58 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:37,760 Speaker 1: You are a renowned physicist, parapsychologist and an author and 59 00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 1: originally you uh you worked specifically with applications for laser technology. 60 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:50,839 Speaker 1: To our audience, UH, the the idea of working in 61 00:03:50,880 --> 00:03:54,440 Speaker 1: that field and the idea of exploring what we would 62 00:03:54,520 --> 00:03:58,760 Speaker 1: today call ESP or remote viewing. Uh. They they seem 63 00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:02,840 Speaker 1: like at first plants two very very different things. Could 64 00:04:02,840 --> 00:04:06,040 Speaker 1: you tell us a little bit about what inspired your 65 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:11,920 Speaker 1: exploration and experimentation with remote viewing. In the beginning, I 66 00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:16,720 Speaker 1: was a very verily defective person. My vision has lifelong 67 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:21,200 Speaker 1: been terrible, so I was always doing things that could 68 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:25,120 Speaker 1: improve my vision, and I got very interested in optics, 69 00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:28,200 Speaker 1: which is a natural thing for a usually handicapped person 70 00:04:28,279 --> 00:04:33,040 Speaker 1: to do. So through that I became what we could 71 00:04:33,040 --> 00:04:35,680 Speaker 1: call a pioneer in the development of the laser. I 72 00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:40,000 Speaker 1: was working on lasers before there were any lasers, so 73 00:04:40,120 --> 00:04:46,760 Speaker 1: I pursued that experiments with lasers laser communication, and I 74 00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:50,880 Speaker 1: wounded up building a ultra high power laser. But all 75 00:04:50,960 --> 00:04:54,400 Speaker 1: my life I was aware the psychic abilities were present 76 00:04:55,560 --> 00:04:58,960 Speaker 1: because as a kid I was interested in magic and 77 00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:03,000 Speaker 1: did pretend to magic on the stage. And when every 78 00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:06,359 Speaker 1: magician will tell you, I've talked to Melbourn, Christopher and 79 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:09,640 Speaker 1: the Great christ Skin and they said, oh, yes, when 80 00:05:09,640 --> 00:05:11,719 Speaker 1: we're on the stage with the lights in our eyes, 81 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:16,119 Speaker 1: we get the supplement our act with. Whenever sp comes 82 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:20,160 Speaker 1: our way, and I had that experience also, so I 83 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:24,039 Speaker 1: had the idea while I was doing laser work that 84 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:27,159 Speaker 1: one of these days I would make a transition into 85 00:05:27,240 --> 00:05:32,159 Speaker 1: E s P work because I I was confident that 86 00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:34,479 Speaker 1: I could teach people how to get in touch with 87 00:05:34,520 --> 00:05:42,320 Speaker 1: their psychic abilities. So in my laser customer invited me 88 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:48,039 Speaker 1: to a conference on speculative technology off the shore of Virginia, 89 00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:51,960 Speaker 1: and at that meeting I had a seven diputs run 90 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:56,520 Speaker 1: in with Werner von Brown, Jim Fletcher, who the administrator 91 00:05:56,800 --> 00:06:02,320 Speaker 1: of all of NASA, and At Mitchell, who the astronaut 92 00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:05,919 Speaker 1: who just came to Earth. And together with my three 93 00:06:05,960 --> 00:06:10,680 Speaker 1: new friends, we outlined what a program investigating psychic abilities 94 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:14,200 Speaker 1: would be and I took that to Stanford Research Institute. 95 00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:19,320 Speaker 1: So my first dough for ESP research was to build 96 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:24,240 Speaker 1: an ESP teaching machine. And it just happens that that 97 00:06:24,320 --> 00:06:28,440 Speaker 1: machine I built is now available as a free application 98 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:35,800 Speaker 1: called E s P Trainer for your iPhone. So I 99 00:06:35,880 --> 00:06:40,119 Speaker 1: got in. I got in business investigating psychic abilities through 100 00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:45,839 Speaker 1: my earlier development of an ESP teaching machine, and together 101 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:50,279 Speaker 1: with support of NASA and also the CIA, we were 102 00:06:50,320 --> 00:06:54,960 Speaker 1: often running at Stanford. Because I had built laser stuff 103 00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:59,520 Speaker 1: for the CIA as well. So I had some credentials 104 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:02,680 Speaker 1: with asked to end with the CIA so I could 105 00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:07,920 Speaker 1: propose this far out seeming program. And they knew that 106 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:11,360 Speaker 1: I was a scientist who is already able to do 107 00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:14,800 Speaker 1: hard stuff and make it work, so they gave us 108 00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:17,280 Speaker 1: a small amount of money to start a program at 109 00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:20,680 Speaker 1: Stanford Research Institute. But so I have a question. So 110 00:07:20,760 --> 00:07:24,680 Speaker 1: for something like um ESP that even today sort of 111 00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:28,080 Speaker 1: exists for many in the speculative realm, where it's it's 112 00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:30,520 Speaker 1: difficult to prove, how do you take something like that, 113 00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:34,920 Speaker 1: especially when it involves funding and research dollars and eventually 114 00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:38,200 Speaker 1: government um And how do you prove something that too 115 00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 1: many people is looked at a pseudoscience or as you know, 116 00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:45,640 Speaker 1: the supernatural. Well, there's there were ways to do that. 117 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:48,160 Speaker 1: One of the ways I had, and I've written quite 118 00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:52,160 Speaker 1: a number of books describing how ESP worked with the 119 00:07:52,160 --> 00:07:54,760 Speaker 1: theory might be how you can learn to do it, 120 00:07:55,760 --> 00:07:59,760 Speaker 1: And of course that's not very efficacious. So I decided 121 00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:04,440 Speaker 1: five years ago to create a film making use of 122 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:09,480 Speaker 1: all the previously top secret material we had. So I 123 00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:14,240 Speaker 1: made a film called Third Eye Spies, which shows people 124 00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:22,000 Speaker 1: doing psychic abilities looking for Soviet weapons factories, missing hostages, 125 00:08:22,920 --> 00:08:28,440 Speaker 1: Russian submarines. And the thing that makes our film unique, 126 00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:32,400 Speaker 1: makes it an event, is that we have on camera 127 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:37,480 Speaker 1: the CIA contract monitors who oversaw our program. So we 128 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:42,440 Speaker 1: have a CIS CIA scientist, Ken Kress, who is a 129 00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:46,880 Speaker 1: lifelong physicist, and Kid Green, who was the director of 130 00:08:46,920 --> 00:08:50,760 Speaker 1: the Life Science Division at the CIA, and these two 131 00:08:50,760 --> 00:08:58,520 Speaker 1: distinguished elder CIA operatives are on camera saying, as we 132 00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:02,680 Speaker 1: were polygraphed and we worked with Star and what he 133 00:09:02,760 --> 00:09:05,880 Speaker 1: said in this film is true. It really happened. So 134 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:12,040 Speaker 1: unlike other films talking about ESP, where you have the 135 00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:15,640 Speaker 1: researchers or the psychics, here we have the guys who 136 00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:18,680 Speaker 1: paid for it. And you know, the CIA is not 137 00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:26,040 Speaker 1: easily amused. And we have these two distinguished CIA operators 138 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:30,040 Speaker 1: on camera looking into the camera and said it might 139 00:09:30,080 --> 00:09:32,040 Speaker 1: be hard to believe, but we were there and it 140 00:09:32,160 --> 00:09:37,079 Speaker 1: really happened. So that's that's one. That's one way endeavored 141 00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:42,280 Speaker 1: to convince people that ESP is real. The other way, uh, 142 00:09:42,920 --> 00:09:46,960 Speaker 1: is to show them how to do it. So very often, uh, 143 00:09:47,360 --> 00:09:49,280 Speaker 1: we were trying to get money from the government to 144 00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:53,920 Speaker 1: do different kinds of things, and a government scientist will 145 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:57,280 Speaker 1: come to our laboratory and say, well, we will show 146 00:09:57,360 --> 00:09:59,880 Speaker 1: can you show me what you guys are doing? And 147 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:02,560 Speaker 1: in one instance like this, we had a visit from 148 00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:08,840 Speaker 1: the Under Secretary Defense Walter Lebert was a uh second 149 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:13,280 Speaker 1: to the Secretary Defense at that time. Lebert came in 150 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:17,440 Speaker 1: his helicopter clearing our parking lot and he said, okay, 151 00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:20,800 Speaker 1: can you show me something psychic? We've been supporting you. Now, 152 00:10:21,480 --> 00:10:26,200 Speaker 1: how do this work? And I said, certainly I can, sir. Well, 153 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:27,880 Speaker 1: I'll just show you how to do it, which is 154 00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:30,400 Speaker 1: what I do. People come to the lab they want 155 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:33,320 Speaker 1: to learn how to do resp and I show them 156 00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:36,240 Speaker 1: how to do remote viewing. So I said, the way 157 00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:39,679 Speaker 1: we do this, and your edjutants will go hide someplace 158 00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:43,839 Speaker 1: with my partner, how put off with some random location 159 00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:47,840 Speaker 1: in the San Francisco Bay area, and that's the target. 160 00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:52,280 Speaker 1: They've gone, some mystery spot, and I will sit with you, sir, 161 00:10:52,679 --> 00:10:54,840 Speaker 1: and I of course have no idea where they've gone, 162 00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:58,640 Speaker 1: but I will show you the moves to quiet your 163 00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:05,760 Speaker 1: mind and look for surprising images to pop into your awareness, 164 00:11:06,679 --> 00:11:10,080 Speaker 1: and then you will make a drawing of those surprising images. 165 00:11:10,679 --> 00:11:13,760 Speaker 1: And that's what we do. So he said, okay, I 166 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:16,040 Speaker 1: if you tell me what to do, that I can 167 00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:20,880 Speaker 1: do that. He's a very senior scientist, accustomed to being successful. 168 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:25,280 Speaker 1: And I said, all right, uh, they're at their place. 169 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:29,440 Speaker 1: Now start drawing. And you see, you can't be wrong, 170 00:11:29,920 --> 00:11:33,480 Speaker 1: Dr Leberts, because only you know what your images are. 171 00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:36,319 Speaker 1: And I just want you to make a drawing of 172 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:40,760 Speaker 1: what shows up in your awareness. That's surprising. And he 173 00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:45,760 Speaker 1: drew a kind of brick courtyard, circular courtyard with a 174 00:11:45,880 --> 00:11:49,440 Speaker 1: circular fountain in the middle, all bricks all the way around, 175 00:11:49,559 --> 00:11:53,679 Speaker 1: all bricks, so forth with fountain. He said, that's all 176 00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:57,680 Speaker 1: I got, the circular arrays of tears of bricks and said, 177 00:11:57,720 --> 00:12:01,120 Speaker 1: well that's fine. That's pretty surprising. And they came back 178 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:04,719 Speaker 1: and then the four of us, the version, me and 179 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:08,120 Speaker 1: the two travelers went to the place which were the 180 00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:12,000 Speaker 1: Arts Center, quite a distance from Sr. I, and he 181 00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:15,040 Speaker 1: got to see in real life what he had drawn, 182 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:18,640 Speaker 1: and he said, well, that's pretty impressive that I didn't 183 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:22,439 Speaker 1: even believe in this stuff. So what we know is 184 00:12:22,520 --> 00:12:26,040 Speaker 1: that remote viewing is an ability we all have to 185 00:12:26,280 --> 00:12:30,559 Speaker 1: quiet our minds and describe and experience what's going on 186 00:12:30,720 --> 00:12:35,120 Speaker 1: in a distance location and people can have that experience 187 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:37,640 Speaker 1: and learn to quiet their minds and learn to do that. 188 00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:42,199 Speaker 1: And one of the most interesting things I know is 189 00:12:42,320 --> 00:12:46,840 Speaker 1: that remote viewing is a non local ability. Like much 190 00:12:46,880 --> 00:12:50,840 Speaker 1: in modern science, non locality is a very hot topic 191 00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:56,880 Speaker 1: pertaining particularly when when photons are electrons are separated at birth, 192 00:12:57,440 --> 00:13:01,040 Speaker 1: they remain attached. So if you have one of the twins, 193 00:13:01,160 --> 00:13:04,800 Speaker 1: the other one squeals, even though they're separated by the 194 00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:09,480 Speaker 1: whole universe. So the idea of non locality independent of 195 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:13,959 Speaker 1: space and time is quite current in modern physics. It's 196 00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:18,680 Speaker 1: not it's not an occult idea anymore. The Buddhists, of course, 197 00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:22,400 Speaker 1: said there's no separation and consciousness, and they said that 198 00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:28,240 Speaker 1: years ago. But we would much rather believe in experiment 199 00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:32,480 Speaker 1: with twin photons than anything that appeared in the project 200 00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:37,079 Speaker 1: of permita years ago. But the other thing I can 201 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:39,280 Speaker 1: tell you, which is the most interesting thing I know, 202 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:43,360 Speaker 1: and what floats my boat these days, is that it's 203 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:46,480 Speaker 1: no harder to describe something that happened in the future 204 00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:50,240 Speaker 1: days or weeks in the future than it is to 205 00:13:50,360 --> 00:13:57,280 Speaker 1: describe a hidden contemporaneous thing. So the future and the 206 00:13:57,400 --> 00:14:01,800 Speaker 1: distance are both available to the quiet mind and this 207 00:14:02,240 --> 00:14:06,000 Speaker 1: non local ability to know the future and the distance 208 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 1: of what we call remote viewing when we're talking about uh, this, 209 00:14:11,840 --> 00:14:16,319 Speaker 1: this sort of process. Entanglement may sound strange, but entanglement 210 00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:21,160 Speaker 1: is proven. And this gets us into well some of 211 00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:25,840 Speaker 1: the history of the involvement of the of the CIA 212 00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:30,440 Speaker 1: and other scientists, not just in the US, but around 213 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:35,360 Speaker 1: the world. One thing that we picked up here when 214 00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:38,040 Speaker 1: we were watching Third Eye Spies and then also when 215 00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:42,880 Speaker 1: we're looking in some uh, some earlier stories of your work, 216 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:47,040 Speaker 1: we found that a lot of this research occurred within 217 00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:52,000 Speaker 1: the cultural context of the Cold War, and one of 218 00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:55,560 Speaker 1: the most popular frames of thought, at least on the 219 00:14:55,720 --> 00:15:00,480 Speaker 1: US government side, was that the Soviet Union was not 220 00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:06,080 Speaker 1: just interested in similar research, but had already been conducting experiments. 221 00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:09,080 Speaker 1: Is that correct, and was potentially actively using it against 222 00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:11,200 Speaker 1: us to spy on us. It strikes me as almost 223 00:15:11,280 --> 00:15:13,400 Speaker 1: like a space race kind of situation, only in the 224 00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:16,480 Speaker 1: psychic realm. Yeah, would you would you say that? Correct? Yeah? 225 00:15:16,520 --> 00:15:20,400 Speaker 1: The American book by Ostrander and Schroeder, these two journalists 226 00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:25,480 Speaker 1: Wroder book in seventy called Psychic Discoveries Behind the Iron Curtain, 227 00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:30,000 Speaker 1: and they revealed a lot of the work that was 228 00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:33,040 Speaker 1: going out on the Soviet Union. This is non classified work, 229 00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:36,720 Speaker 1: of course, but one of the experiments that we can 230 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:40,000 Speaker 1: verify because we know one of the participants now, the 231 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:44,120 Speaker 1: risk of Alanskaya was a Russian physicist who eventually worked 232 00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:47,960 Speaker 1: with us. Was present when they did a long distance 233 00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:53,520 Speaker 1: strangulation experiment where one fellow was in Moscow and his 234 00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:57,440 Speaker 1: best friend was in Leningrad hooked up to bio our 235 00:15:57,520 --> 00:16:02,840 Speaker 1: technology so that when love in Moscow was told, now 236 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:05,960 Speaker 1: try and get the attention of your friend in the lab, 237 00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:08,560 Speaker 1: and Lennon grad he said, well, one way to get 238 00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:12,360 Speaker 1: an attention is to strangle him. And this is Russian thinking, 239 00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:16,640 Speaker 1: of course, and they carry out. Larissa was with the 240 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:19,800 Speaker 1: guy at Moscow and she said, they carried out the 241 00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:22,920 Speaker 1: experiment until the guy and learning we had fell office 242 00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:30,040 Speaker 1: chair at near death. And didn't he also lose consciousness 243 00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:35,120 Speaker 1: at some point? Yes, he did. He with all like 244 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:36,680 Speaker 1: he was near death. It was almost the end of 245 00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:40,800 Speaker 1: his life. And so the difference between the Russian experiments 246 00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:44,880 Speaker 1: and the American experiments is that my interest is in 247 00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:49,520 Speaker 1: flowing information. He had, Remember this was legally blind person 248 00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:53,840 Speaker 1: you're talking to, I'm always interested in getting more information. 249 00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:59,040 Speaker 1: So my pitch, my interest and the CIA's prince interest 250 00:16:59,480 --> 00:17:02,520 Speaker 1: was how can we learn what's going on in distant places? 251 00:17:04,320 --> 00:17:07,560 Speaker 1: And the Russians interest is how can we affect somebody 252 00:17:07,600 --> 00:17:12,920 Speaker 1: in a distant place. Can we embarrass an American leader 253 00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:15,600 Speaker 1: while it's giving a talk and we confuse his mind 254 00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:18,520 Speaker 1: at a distance And the answer is probably yes. So 255 00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:23,399 Speaker 1: it's almost weaponization versus information technology in terms of the purpose. 256 00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:29,600 Speaker 1: And one one thing that is fascinating about this is 257 00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:35,440 Speaker 1: the way in which the CIA began to take interest 258 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:40,960 Speaker 1: in your work. From from what we understand, there were 259 00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:47,159 Speaker 1: experiments wherein UH one or more people would learn specific 260 00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:52,639 Speaker 1: information in one case special access code names UH in 261 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:56,000 Speaker 1: another case, as you have mentioned, you know submarines, although 262 00:17:56,040 --> 00:17:59,480 Speaker 1: they were already involved at that point. When when did 263 00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:06,600 Speaker 1: the CIA come to your group directly with with regards 264 00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:10,280 Speaker 1: with this. Did they pitch you or I went to 265 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:13,480 Speaker 1: the C I A. I had done laser stuff for 266 00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:18,720 Speaker 1: the CIA in my earlier incarnations a laser scientist, so 267 00:18:19,119 --> 00:18:22,119 Speaker 1: I was I was prepared now after my nice meeting 268 00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:27,000 Speaker 1: with Van Brown and Jim Fletcher and the promise of dough, 269 00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:29,600 Speaker 1: I was prepared to play my other card and go 270 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:33,320 Speaker 1: to the CIA and say, can we get some support 271 00:18:34,080 --> 00:18:39,480 Speaker 1: for teaching people how to actually use this ability? And 272 00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:43,400 Speaker 1: Kid Green, who are the head of Life Science division 273 00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:46,520 Speaker 1: at that time, said, well, something we could do. How 274 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:50,679 Speaker 1: how about we give you geographical coordinates and you can 275 00:18:50,760 --> 00:18:54,119 Speaker 1: describe what's there, and I'll give you coordinates of something 276 00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:57,480 Speaker 1: that I don't know. So it's a double blind experiment. 277 00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:01,680 Speaker 1: And Pat Price, who is of our great psychics, retired 278 00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:06,120 Speaker 1: Police Commissioner Price said, it looks to me that these 279 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:10,880 Speaker 1: coordinates pertained to some kind of military base. I see 280 00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:15,359 Speaker 1: a microwave antenna and their big roll updoors. If I 281 00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:19,240 Speaker 1: go in, there a lot of activity at lower levels, 282 00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:24,159 Speaker 1: the whole row of filing cabinets, and this place is 283 00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:28,199 Speaker 1: called rack up, and it's all all the programs are 284 00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:31,560 Speaker 1: named like eight Paul and Cuball and so forth. They 285 00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:35,640 Speaker 1: all have Billiard names. And he wrote down a bunch 286 00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:39,280 Speaker 1: of those, and I delivered those two Kid Green. That 287 00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:43,320 Speaker 1: was our our program, of our deliverable is a picture 288 00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:48,120 Speaker 1: of this radar site and the name of the programs, 289 00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:51,840 Speaker 1: a picture that he had drawn, that the Price had drawn, 290 00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:56,280 Speaker 1: And that wasn't at all what Kid expected. Because the 291 00:19:56,440 --> 00:19:58,520 Speaker 1: kid then went to his buddy who gave him the 292 00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:03,240 Speaker 1: coordinates and it was the Lucked cabin. But because Ingo Swan, 293 00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:06,760 Speaker 1: another psychic in our lab. In fact, Swan is the 294 00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:09,719 Speaker 1: one who taught us how to do remote viewing. Swan 295 00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:14,159 Speaker 1: had drawn things very similar to Pat Price. And the 296 00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:18,760 Speaker 1: reason that Kid Green wanted to pursue this is that 297 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:22,400 Speaker 1: both psychics threw the same thing. So he drove up 298 00:20:23,080 --> 00:20:27,240 Speaker 1: towards the cabin there was the ostensible target, and a 299 00:20:27,359 --> 00:20:31,720 Speaker 1: hundred meters past the cabin there was this military facility 300 00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:36,920 Speaker 1: which is called Sugar Grove, a highly classified National Security 301 00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:41,520 Speaker 1: Agency listening post. But kid of course has all the credentials, 302 00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:44,400 Speaker 1: so he could go anywhere, and he went in there, 303 00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:48,639 Speaker 1: drove around, saw what they had talked to the management 304 00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:51,920 Speaker 1: that you knew anything about these funny names that the 305 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:55,840 Speaker 1: psychic gave us, and all hell brokers because of what 306 00:20:56,160 --> 00:21:00,399 Speaker 1: Pat Price has described were top secret codein aimes of 307 00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:07,879 Speaker 1: ongoing programs listening to Russian microwave transmissions. So the thing 308 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:10,720 Speaker 1: that we had penetrated accidentally was one of the most 309 00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:15,880 Speaker 1: secret things in America, namely a n S, a crypto 310 00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:21,520 Speaker 1: listening post penetrated by two psychics in California, So that 311 00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:25,160 Speaker 1: caused a major freak out at the National Security Agency. 312 00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:29,159 Speaker 1: First of all, they were angry at Kid Green and 313 00:21:29,359 --> 00:21:32,920 Speaker 1: complained to their management at CIA, why are you guys 314 00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:37,840 Speaker 1: targeting our facility with a bunch of psychics, And Kick 315 00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:40,840 Speaker 1: Green said it was an accident. They missed the log 316 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:45,000 Speaker 1: cabin and somehow zeroed in on your place. So we 317 00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:47,879 Speaker 1: went at a meeting at s r I where the 318 00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:53,880 Speaker 1: security people at ns A face path Price and said, 319 00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:57,239 Speaker 1: if you're so psychic, why did you look at our 320 00:21:57,320 --> 00:22:01,400 Speaker 1: place if you're targeted at a log cabin? And he did, well, 321 00:22:01,440 --> 00:22:04,800 Speaker 1: I was coming in at fifty feet and I looked 322 00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:07,399 Speaker 1: on and I of course saw the log cabin, but 323 00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:11,639 Speaker 1: I saw you're a huge spread of giant microwave dishes, 324 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:15,080 Speaker 1: and I assumed that that must be what thereafter, So 325 00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:18,520 Speaker 1: I landed there and walked around and describe what I found, 326 00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:21,560 Speaker 1: and he said, you've got to remember that the more 327 00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:25,159 Speaker 1: attention you have on hiding something, the more it shines 328 00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:28,880 Speaker 1: like a beacon in psychic space. And that, of course 329 00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:34,200 Speaker 1: totally freaked out all these people overcome with security. That 330 00:22:34,359 --> 00:22:36,640 Speaker 1: was going to be the question, Yeah, how how did 331 00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:42,080 Speaker 1: they react. Did they did they immediately go into shock? 332 00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:45,720 Speaker 1: Did they did they assume that someone had leaked to 333 00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:48,480 Speaker 1: the location from their side or how did they handle this? 334 00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:52,359 Speaker 1: The first thing they decided there was a security league, 335 00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:56,520 Speaker 1: Except this is if there is almost worse for there 336 00:22:56,520 --> 00:22:59,440 Speaker 1: to be a security league than for for a psychic 337 00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:02,240 Speaker 1: to look in, because if you have a security league 338 00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:05,760 Speaker 1: where a top secret program in the basement of the 339 00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:10,560 Speaker 1: NSA has penetrated, then you've got a super major problem, 340 00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:15,280 Speaker 1: even worse than ESP And they decided that there was 341 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:19,000 Speaker 1: no league. The n s A went away, and we 342 00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:22,680 Speaker 1: promised not to look in on them anymore and kicked 343 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:29,040 Speaker 1: green at. The CIA then supported our program for many 344 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:33,360 Speaker 1: more years. And that's how we wound up looking at 345 00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:37,840 Speaker 1: a Soviet weapons factory. We were targeted to look at 346 00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:43,680 Speaker 1: a Soviet site someplace in Siberia, and Pep I was 347 00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:47,320 Speaker 1: I'm always the in house person because I don't drive, 348 00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:50,680 Speaker 1: so in all the experiments, I'm the one sitting with 349 00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:54,560 Speaker 1: the dark, sitting in the dark with the psychic, and 350 00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:57,200 Speaker 1: I'm saying, okay, Pat, we got a new target today. 351 00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:02,840 Speaker 1: It's in Russia. No idea? What there? Uh? And he 352 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:05,920 Speaker 1: quiet your mind and tell me what what surprising things 353 00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:09,240 Speaker 1: come into view, which is my magic words to launch 354 00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:13,080 Speaker 1: as pepro target. And he said, well, I'm lying on 355 00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:17,080 Speaker 1: a building in the sunshine, and the sun feels good 356 00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:20,919 Speaker 1: on my body, says he. And there is giant crane 357 00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:24,399 Speaker 1: rolling back and forth over me. Huge crane. It's a 358 00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:28,600 Speaker 1: gantry crane with four wheels on either side of the building, 359 00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:31,879 Speaker 1: rolling back and forth. This is such to me. I've 360 00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:35,679 Speaker 1: got to draw this crane. And he drew the crane 361 00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:40,240 Speaker 1: and the next day we brought that to Ken Creft 362 00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:45,240 Speaker 1: and Kit Crean and he's unrolled a photograph that they had, 363 00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:52,159 Speaker 1: a top secret satellite photograph and what place drew was 364 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:57,399 Speaker 1: remarkably similar to the crane on the ground. Jeny were 365 00:24:57,480 --> 00:24:59,960 Speaker 1: shocked that he could. He could out of his head 366 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:03,440 Speaker 1: had replicates this thing that was already marked top secret. 367 00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:07,399 Speaker 1: And of course we had clearances to see this. I mean, 368 00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:09,920 Speaker 1: part of the part of the evidence that are that 369 00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:13,320 Speaker 1: e SP was real is that my partner and I 370 00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:17,280 Speaker 1: had top secret clearances because the things we were describing 371 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:21,879 Speaker 1: were verified by satellite photography. So this was this was 372 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:27,280 Speaker 1: not game playing. We were uh serious contenders. So Ken 373 00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:31,680 Speaker 1: Chris said, well we We knew that that was there 374 00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:34,720 Speaker 1: because we had That's why we picked the site. What 375 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:37,679 Speaker 1: we want to know is what are they doing underground? 376 00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:41,840 Speaker 1: What does this crane used? What are they building? And 377 00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:46,000 Speaker 1: Price set back and put in his glasses and said, well, 378 00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:50,160 Speaker 1: they're making a giant steel swear about sixty ft in diameter, 379 00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:54,960 Speaker 1: and they're building that out of gores like orange peel slices, 380 00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:58,120 Speaker 1: and they're welding it together. But they're having a hard 381 00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:00,840 Speaker 1: time welding it because of material. It was so thick 382 00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:04,600 Speaker 1: that the material is warping as they try and weld it. 383 00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:08,960 Speaker 1: And he drew a picture of the sixty ft gore's 384 00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:16,080 Speaker 1: sixty ft orange fields and then sketch of sixty sphere. Unfortunately, 385 00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:21,399 Speaker 1: the CIA then hired him away from US, sort of 386 00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:27,000 Speaker 1: captured him and took him from sunny California to Virginia 387 00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:32,960 Speaker 1: to be a contractor for the CIA, and Price mysteriously 388 00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:38,040 Speaker 1: died four months later. But the CIA had no idea 389 00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:42,320 Speaker 1: whether or not there were sixty ft spheres buried under 390 00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:47,680 Speaker 1: the Semi Pelletants weapons factory. But two years later the 391 00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:51,680 Speaker 1: factory was opened up and they rolled out two of 392 00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:56,320 Speaker 1: these giant six spheres exactly as Price drew them, and 393 00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:59,359 Speaker 1: in the photographs that we show in the movie, you 394 00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:03,919 Speaker 1: can see how they're put together with gores and Aviation 395 00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:08,760 Speaker 1: Week sent me those photographs, so fad I spies are 396 00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:11,760 Speaker 1: in our movie. This is the first place anybody could 397 00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:16,240 Speaker 1: ever actually see what these giant sphears looked like. And 398 00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:20,400 Speaker 1: Price was able to describe something that nobody in America, 399 00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:23,879 Speaker 1: nobody in the CIA knew anything about. That was because 400 00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:27,040 Speaker 1: it was buried in a secret rush of the site. 401 00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:31,120 Speaker 1: Esp researchers worry about did he look in the future 402 00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:35,000 Speaker 1: and describe his feedback And the answer is no, he 403 00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:38,120 Speaker 1: did not do that because he was dead before anybody 404 00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:42,040 Speaker 1: in the West, before he could get any place place, 405 00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:46,480 Speaker 1: got no feedback for the crystal clear description of his spears. 406 00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:51,160 Speaker 1: And will pause momentarily for a word from our sponsor, 407 00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:00,840 Speaker 1: and we're back now. One thing I really enjoyed in 408 00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:03,200 Speaker 1: the film is the way you take a lot of 409 00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:06,640 Speaker 1: these drawings and you overlay them over I'm assuming more 410 00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:10,680 Speaker 1: modern aerial photography of some of these locations, and sometimes 411 00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:15,159 Speaker 1: they line up in a very um affecting way, like 412 00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:17,680 Speaker 1: kind of creepy, for lack of a better term. My 413 00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:19,399 Speaker 1: question though, is at the time, this is just my 414 00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:22,200 Speaker 1: ignorance about the technology of the time, but were there 415 00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:25,399 Speaker 1: was there not that level of satellite photography available, like 416 00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:28,720 Speaker 1: how the underground I see, I see? And this was 417 00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:34,840 Speaker 1: the mid seventies. Right to the photograph we we the 418 00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:37,879 Speaker 1: c i A did have photographs of the big crane, 419 00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:42,760 Speaker 1: but that was already a tough secret photograph, very very 420 00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:46,480 Speaker 1: closely held, and they had no idea what was in 421 00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:49,800 Speaker 1: the building under the crane, what are they making? And 422 00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:53,560 Speaker 1: in fact, the reason for the exercise is could the 423 00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:58,880 Speaker 1: psychic describe the stuff on the surface at seven pets 424 00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:02,600 Speaker 1: And if we could do that, could they then reveal 425 00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:06,720 Speaker 1: what was going on at this huge weapons factory. And 426 00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:12,320 Speaker 1: there's one question that kept popping into my mind while 427 00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:18,560 Speaker 1: watching Third Eye Spies, which was the multiple occasions people 428 00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:23,680 Speaker 1: say that they that the program had support from various 429 00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:28,080 Speaker 1: branches of the government or intelligence or or the military, 430 00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:33,120 Speaker 1: but that the CIA seemed to be um for lack 431 00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:35,240 Speaker 1: of a better word, they seemed to be the ones 432 00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:40,200 Speaker 1: who were pushing the brakes. In your experience, Uh, we 433 00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:42,720 Speaker 1: totally understand. If that's something they can't be said on air. 434 00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:45,080 Speaker 1: What was it like working with the c I A. 435 00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:48,640 Speaker 1: I mean clearly the people in Third Eye Spies like 436 00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:54,640 Speaker 1: Christopher kit Green Uh. They clearly supported the project and 437 00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:58,480 Speaker 1: believed in the science behind it. But overall is an institution. 438 00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:02,080 Speaker 1: What was the c I like as a funding partner 439 00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:06,360 Speaker 1: or research partner? I was a co founder in ninety 440 00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:10,960 Speaker 1: two and I left in two when it became totally 441 00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:14,760 Speaker 1: classified and I could no longer publish anything that I 442 00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:18,840 Speaker 1: grew up in. My father was a distinguished New York publisher, 443 00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:21,840 Speaker 1: so I grew up in the purpose of life with 444 00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:26,720 Speaker 1: the pub right books, so and papers. So by two 445 00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:29,960 Speaker 1: I could no longer publish anything, and I felt that 446 00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:33,160 Speaker 1: my time in graduate school was not spent to be 447 00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:36,880 Speaker 1: a psychic spy for the CIA, but rather to understand 448 00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:41,320 Speaker 1: how our awareness could transcendence space and time and tell 449 00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:45,760 Speaker 1: people about it. But during my decade we worked with 450 00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:49,960 Speaker 1: John McMahon, who was the director of Intelligence at c I, 451 00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:53,640 Speaker 1: A a very smart guy trained as a lawyer, who 452 00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:56,320 Speaker 1: was totally on board with what we were doing and 453 00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:59,960 Speaker 1: very supportive. So the CIA has given a lot of 454 00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:03,560 Speaker 1: people a lot of problems, and killed a lot of 455 00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:08,239 Speaker 1: people and written a reprehensive organization, but they let us 456 00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:10,760 Speaker 1: do what we wanted to do. The deal we made 457 00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:15,040 Speaker 1: with John McMahon, head of Intelligence, is that we would 458 00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:19,080 Speaker 1: spend half of our time trying to understand psychic abilities, 459 00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:23,680 Speaker 1: and in that's direction, we would publish our findings in 460 00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:29,760 Speaker 1: Nature magazine and in English Distinguished Journal, and in the 461 00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:34,320 Speaker 1: Proceedings of the Institute of Electrical Engineers, which is which 462 00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:37,280 Speaker 1: is the which would be my traditional journal as a 463 00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:41,160 Speaker 1: laser guy. So we published a lengthy paper in the 464 00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:46,000 Speaker 1: I Triple A journal called Information Transmission under Conditions of 465 00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:50,040 Speaker 1: Sensory Shielding. From their point of view, that looked like 466 00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:55,520 Speaker 1: a microwave paper. No problem, and the Information Transmission has 467 00:31:55,600 --> 00:32:00,440 Speaker 1: happened to be esp But the CIA had a lot 468 00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:05,440 Speaker 1: of closed minded people there, but the guys we were 469 00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:09,320 Speaker 1: working it with were very supportive. Bob Gates became the 470 00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:15,240 Speaker 1: head of CIA, and he became the Secretary Defense eventually, 471 00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:23,000 Speaker 1: and he was on television saying that, uh, the s 472 00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:27,000 Speaker 1: R program did not provide any information that was useful 473 00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:31,800 Speaker 1: to anybody. And that was very shortly after the Army 474 00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:36,640 Speaker 1: group that I trained six Army intelligence officers to create 475 00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:42,120 Speaker 1: a Army Psychic Corps in Maryland. So the Army had 476 00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:45,040 Speaker 1: been became embarrassed at having to come to s R 477 00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:48,719 Speaker 1: I wherever they wanted to find something. So we had 478 00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:53,320 Speaker 1: recently found a downed airplane that the CIA couldn't find. 479 00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:58,479 Speaker 1: A Russian plane crashed in Africa, and the CIA couldn't 480 00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:01,760 Speaker 1: find it because it was in the jungle and the 481 00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:07,200 Speaker 1: photography doesn't penetrate the jungle. Of course, so ce IA 482 00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:09,600 Speaker 1: came to us and said, can do you think your 483 00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:14,760 Speaker 1: psychic could find this airplane in northern Africa? And we 484 00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:18,600 Speaker 1: worked with Air Force Intelligence who also had a psychic, 485 00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:23,640 Speaker 1: and between us we drew a little circle three mile 486 00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:28,320 Speaker 1: diameter circle between the river and the mountains to one 487 00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:31,920 Speaker 1: side of a village, and the CIA launched their helicopter 488 00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:36,200 Speaker 1: to our little circle, and as they landed in the circle, 489 00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:40,640 Speaker 1: they could see natives dragging big hunks of metal from 490 00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:43,840 Speaker 1: the river to the village, showing that they had already 491 00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:50,120 Speaker 1: found the airplane. So so a California psychic led the 492 00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:53,640 Speaker 1: CIA to find this airplane that they were unable to 493 00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:56,720 Speaker 1: find by any other means. In our film, and Third 494 00:33:56,800 --> 00:34:01,400 Speaker 1: Eye Spies opens up with Jimmy Carter talking about how 495 00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:05,920 Speaker 1: during his presidency, the most remarkable thing he had experienced 496 00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:11,160 Speaker 1: was the locating of a down rushan airplane by psychics 497 00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:14,880 Speaker 1: in California. And that's actually something that has an Atlantic 498 00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:18,319 Speaker 1: connection to Jimmy Carter being a native Atlanta. He gave 499 00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:21,239 Speaker 1: a commencement speech at Emory University. It's also featured in 500 00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:23,960 Speaker 1: the film where he I think the members of the 501 00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:26,600 Speaker 1: audience were able to submit questions and somebody mentioned this 502 00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:28,959 Speaker 1: programmer this quote that he had mentioned that he had said, 503 00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:31,640 Speaker 1: and he bringing that up at that point, which I 504 00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:35,879 Speaker 1: believe was in the nineties, um it caused helped blow 505 00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:38,279 Speaker 1: our cover. It caust some problems. Can you explain why 506 00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:40,680 Speaker 1: if that was already in the public record him saying that, 507 00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:42,480 Speaker 1: why was it such a big deal for him to 508 00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:44,920 Speaker 1: say it then? And like was it didn't create renewed 509 00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:47,239 Speaker 1: interest when at that point it becomes so classified And 510 00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:50,600 Speaker 1: it wasn't It wasn't in a public record until Jimmy 511 00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:53,480 Speaker 1: Carter said it. It was that the CIA knew that 512 00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:56,600 Speaker 1: we had found it because he founded for them, and 513 00:34:56,760 --> 00:35:01,560 Speaker 1: the remote viewing operators at Ford made knew about it, 514 00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:05,399 Speaker 1: as did we, But the public didn't know that there 515 00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:11,279 Speaker 1: was a extensive ESP program going on until Jimmy Carter 516 00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:16,279 Speaker 1: announced it on television. See I was missing. I misunderstood that. 517 00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:18,719 Speaker 1: I thought that he had said it previously, because the 518 00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:21,319 Speaker 1: footage in the film is more grainy and black and white. 519 00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:22,799 Speaker 1: I thought it was like a comment that he had 520 00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:24,759 Speaker 1: made a long time ago. But that's not the case. 521 00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:27,120 Speaker 1: He made it for the very first time in the 522 00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:29,759 Speaker 1: nineties at that Emery commencement, and that's what blew your 523 00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:36,000 Speaker 1: cover correct. Okay, So it's interesting that Robert Gates, of 524 00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:39,480 Speaker 1: all people, was the one who who said that he 525 00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:43,239 Speaker 1: didn't see some sort of significance, because wasn't Wasn't he 526 00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:47,800 Speaker 1: the same person who, as an analyst received the information 527 00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:50,600 Speaker 1: about the Russian sub and then called it a lucky 528 00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:53,880 Speaker 1: guess even though it was. Yeah, I mean he he 529 00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:56,719 Speaker 1: was on television line of the ass off saying that 530 00:35:56,840 --> 00:36:01,800 Speaker 1: we never said anything. Worth didn't give him any information. 531 00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:08,680 Speaker 1: They didn't know. Joe mcmonagal was targeted by the uh 532 00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:11,680 Speaker 1: Fort Meat organization that he worked with. He was one 533 00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:15,319 Speaker 1: of the seven or eight psychic I trained up Joe, 534 00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:18,920 Speaker 1: along with six other people. I wouldn't say that. I 535 00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:22,120 Speaker 1: would never say on the air that I taught Joe 536 00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:24,800 Speaker 1: how to be psychic. He he came to me psychic, 537 00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:28,080 Speaker 1: but I just showed him the moves for how to 538 00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:32,000 Speaker 1: do remote viewing and make use of this information. And 539 00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:37,880 Speaker 1: he became a prodigious psychic practitioner at Fort Mead, and 540 00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:40,840 Speaker 1: he was able to draw the sub he was targeted 541 00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:44,600 Speaker 1: on the building. There was a large building quarter mile 542 00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:48,880 Speaker 1: inland from the North Sea. They knew the while of 543 00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:54,040 Speaker 1: activity was going there and Joe said, well, it was not. 544 00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:57,520 Speaker 1: It was not a sub base. But Joe said, I 545 00:36:57,560 --> 00:37:00,839 Speaker 1: see them building this huge submarine. They're building us up 546 00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:03,640 Speaker 1: twice as big as anything I've ever seen, as more 547 00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:06,920 Speaker 1: than five feet long, and twice the width of an 548 00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:11,400 Speaker 1: ordinary sub as though they've stuck two subs together side 549 00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:14,040 Speaker 1: by side. So this is the biggest thing is that 550 00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:17,320 Speaker 1: it looks like a huge whale of a submarine and 551 00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:21,840 Speaker 1: they're gonna launch it in three months. And they launched 552 00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:25,560 Speaker 1: it in three months, and it was exactly what Joe described, 553 00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:29,520 Speaker 1: this typhoon class submarine. No one had seen. No one 554 00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:33,359 Speaker 1: in the West had ever seen anything remotely like there's 555 00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:38,040 Speaker 1: five fifty foot submarine that Joe drew in detail three 556 00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:41,560 Speaker 1: months before it was launched. And then and then Gates 557 00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:44,040 Speaker 1: was on the Ted Compo Show, saying that we never 558 00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:48,040 Speaker 1: I was with I was in the film I'm at 559 00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:52,279 Speaker 1: show that I'm sitting with Joe and he just says, uh, 560 00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:56,120 Speaker 1: Gates are just lying. There's no other way to explain 561 00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:59,399 Speaker 1: it because he knew about this and what he said 562 00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:03,440 Speaker 1: back to there was this lucky guess more with Russell 563 00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:05,960 Speaker 1: targ after we take a quick break to thank our sponsor, 564 00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:15,560 Speaker 1: and now we are back with more from Russell Tark. 565 00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:17,960 Speaker 1: I have a question, so um when when you when 566 00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:20,040 Speaker 1: you talk about being able to train somebody to do this, 567 00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:23,000 Speaker 1: and it sounds to me like almost a meditative process 568 00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:26,000 Speaker 1: that is akin to astral projection, I guess as it's 569 00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:29,879 Speaker 1: known in in the you know parlance of our time. Yeah, 570 00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:33,719 Speaker 1: I suppose so um. To me, this begs the question of, 571 00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:38,240 Speaker 1: you know, the nature of science versus spirituality and the mind, 572 00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:41,800 Speaker 1: the brain versus the soul, etcetera. Um, And this is 573 00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:44,040 Speaker 1: something that I think we've been dancing around a little 574 00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:46,040 Speaker 1: bit in this conversation, but I would love to hear 575 00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:51,600 Speaker 1: how you view those differences. We're still recovering from the Enlightenment, 576 00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:55,839 Speaker 1: the big contribution of the Enlightenment with the card who 577 00:38:57,160 --> 00:39:02,440 Speaker 1: was the author of the Terrible Mind Brain Sism. He 578 00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:06,759 Speaker 1: knew that there was survival after death, but he absolutely 579 00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:11,480 Speaker 1: wanted no part of science dealing with spirituality. And the 580 00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:15,279 Speaker 1: Church didn't want scientists creeping around with the nature of 581 00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:20,400 Speaker 1: the soul. There was a heresy for a person who 582 00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:24,200 Speaker 1: was not in the clergy to start incur inquiring about 583 00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:27,640 Speaker 1: the nature of the soul. And science was just coming 584 00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:33,640 Speaker 1: out from under the edge of spirituality with with with 585 00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:38,400 Speaker 1: Newton's laws and Copernicus and heard edge science. So the 586 00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:43,240 Speaker 1: separation between science and spirituality really came at that point 587 00:39:43,719 --> 00:39:49,680 Speaker 1: and became increasingly hard edged. Now there's these days you 588 00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:54,600 Speaker 1: have people like shrouding or saying, uh, consciousness is a 589 00:39:54,760 --> 00:40:01,440 Speaker 1: singular which there is no plural consciousness uh everywhere. And 590 00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:07,080 Speaker 1: Shortinger said the most important discovery in quantum mechanics and entanglement. 591 00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:12,600 Speaker 1: So quantum mechanics has really saved us from the sitism 592 00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:19,880 Speaker 1: created by Descartes, that is, it's now allo quantum mechanics. 593 00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:25,319 Speaker 1: The so called measurement problem that is also pioneered by Shortinger, 594 00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:29,320 Speaker 1: and the famous kath problem. The cat is neither're alive 595 00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:34,160 Speaker 1: nor not alive until you look and see that paradox 596 00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:39,640 Speaker 1: was invented two thousand years ago by a Buddhist dharma master, 597 00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:43,200 Speaker 1: Narco Juna, who said that most things are neither true 598 00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:46,839 Speaker 1: nor not true. But that's outside of what we're saying now. 599 00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:50,520 Speaker 1: But to answer your question, there had been a big 600 00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:56,919 Speaker 1: citism between consciousness research and physics research, and that has 601 00:40:57,040 --> 00:41:01,160 Speaker 1: mended itself largely now. Physics is very interested in the 602 00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:06,439 Speaker 1: nature of consciousness, so so work that we're doing now 603 00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:11,759 Speaker 1: might have been uh sinsematic fifty years ago, but it's 604 00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:16,160 Speaker 1: quite a choral these days. That's fantastic news because this 605 00:41:16,520 --> 00:41:20,160 Speaker 1: this reminds me of something else. To continue the thread 606 00:41:20,719 --> 00:41:25,520 Speaker 1: of schisms, of mending um and of learning and scholarship 607 00:41:25,560 --> 00:41:33,600 Speaker 1: in general. It seems that in some conversations UH certain researchers, professors, 608 00:41:34,080 --> 00:41:39,800 Speaker 1: UH learned people and so on are concerned about publicly 609 00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:44,560 Speaker 1: sharing their opinions on one sort of research or another publicly, 610 00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:49,279 Speaker 1: whether in audio interviews or in print. The crux of 611 00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:54,040 Speaker 1: the question here is where where is that hesitancy coming from? 612 00:41:54,520 --> 00:41:58,399 Speaker 1: Our researchers, perhaps intimidated? Do they think they may lose 613 00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:01,279 Speaker 1: funding or if they're professor, do they think they may 614 00:42:01,360 --> 00:42:05,200 Speaker 1: lose their position at their at their institute of learning. 615 00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:08,759 Speaker 1: And if so, is this a well founded fear? Is 616 00:42:08,840 --> 00:42:13,920 Speaker 1: it genuine? Is it exaggerated? Where does this come from? Well, 617 00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:18,120 Speaker 1: what Pluck said in about you're never going to convince 618 00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:22,040 Speaker 1: the old folks that quantum mechanics is true. You're just 619 00:42:22,120 --> 00:42:24,880 Speaker 1: gonna have to wait for them to die and the 620 00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:30,280 Speaker 1: new people will discover that it's true. Um and physics 621 00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:34,799 Speaker 1: universities people are still by and large, I don't want 622 00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:39,880 Speaker 1: to get tired with the ESP brush that the older 623 00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:44,240 Speaker 1: the older faculty is gonna tease or laugh at younger 624 00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:48,600 Speaker 1: people who are interested in ESP because still still not permitted. 625 00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:54,080 Speaker 1: But for people are working quantum mechanics, the idea of 626 00:42:54,280 --> 00:43:01,120 Speaker 1: consciousness research UH is quite appropriate that you could you 627 00:43:01,239 --> 00:43:03,520 Speaker 1: could go to my making this up now, but I 628 00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:07,879 Speaker 1: guarantee that if you went to the internet and look 629 00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:12,680 Speaker 1: for consciousness and quantum mechanics you would find hundreds of papers. 630 00:43:13,480 --> 00:43:16,840 Speaker 1: Is a hot topic at the edges of quantum mechanics 631 00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:20,960 Speaker 1: because you have the nature, you have the whole nature 632 00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:26,880 Speaker 1: of consciousness is UH for grabs. The consciousness is efficacious. 633 00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:31,240 Speaker 1: That's the That's the thing that UH people don't realize 634 00:43:31,960 --> 00:43:35,280 Speaker 1: is that they're one of those consciousness material or not material. 635 00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:40,200 Speaker 1: So I would say that consciousness is neither material nor 636 00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:43,400 Speaker 1: not material. It's it's a bad question because we know 637 00:43:43,560 --> 00:43:47,200 Speaker 1: that the thoughts of one person can affect the physiology 638 00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:50,080 Speaker 1: of a distant person. That is one of the most 639 00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:54,880 Speaker 1: replicated experiments in all of sp research is called diston 640 00:43:54,960 --> 00:43:59,320 Speaker 1: mental influence on living persons on living things. So you 641 00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:05,680 Speaker 1: can see somebody's sitting in a distant laboratory and on 642 00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:08,680 Speaker 1: a random schedule you're supposed to excite them or put 643 00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:11,400 Speaker 1: them to sleep, and then you can look at the 644 00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:14,799 Speaker 1: later time and their brain waves or heart rate will 645 00:44:14,920 --> 00:44:18,200 Speaker 1: show that when I was trying to excite them, they 646 00:44:18,280 --> 00:44:21,680 Speaker 1: became excited, even though they might have been fifty away. 647 00:44:22,640 --> 00:44:26,440 Speaker 1: So the fact that so consciousness is able to do stuff. 648 00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:32,200 Speaker 1: So let give a kind of physical reality to consciousness 649 00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:37,120 Speaker 1: because it's deficacious. It's not it's not an epiphenomena. Is 650 00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:41,279 Speaker 1: my consciousness is able to move the dial? So because 651 00:44:41,320 --> 00:44:45,439 Speaker 1: there my consciousness demands cognizant and a as a real 652 00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:50,719 Speaker 1: thing and not an epiphenomena. But we've come to see 653 00:44:50,719 --> 00:44:53,239 Speaker 1: how the fil film is about the true story of 654 00:44:53,440 --> 00:44:57,439 Speaker 1: c I A psychic spying. So we've come quite quite 655 00:44:57,719 --> 00:45:04,520 Speaker 1: away that I'm unreconstructed logical positives, that I grew up 656 00:45:04,560 --> 00:45:08,680 Speaker 1: doing experiments where I could lay the experiment desk of 657 00:45:08,719 --> 00:45:11,800 Speaker 1: the theory and say, here's what's supposed to happen, here's 658 00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:15,000 Speaker 1: what did happen. Do we know what's going on? So 659 00:45:15,120 --> 00:45:19,840 Speaker 1: I really believe in good experiments stronger than good theory 660 00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:23,440 Speaker 1: And say why did I Why? What makes you believe 661 00:45:23,520 --> 00:45:28,839 Speaker 1: in esp targ And I said, Well, after I left 662 00:45:29,040 --> 00:45:32,560 Speaker 1: s R I I started a group called Delphi Associates. 663 00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:37,480 Speaker 1: Forecasting changed in the silver market, and by the time 664 00:45:37,520 --> 00:45:40,440 Speaker 1: we got set up with a broker and an investor, 665 00:45:41,520 --> 00:45:43,839 Speaker 1: we thought that we understood how to do that. At 666 00:45:43,880 --> 00:45:49,680 Speaker 1: the end of eighty four, we made nine adventures into 667 00:45:49,719 --> 00:45:53,080 Speaker 1: the silver market to determine whether the silver goes up 668 00:45:53,120 --> 00:45:56,320 Speaker 1: a little, or goes up a lot, down a little, 669 00:45:56,440 --> 00:45:59,600 Speaker 1: or down a lot. And all nine of our forecasts 670 00:45:59,680 --> 00:46:03,400 Speaker 1: were direct spot on, I mean a hundred two dollars 671 00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:08,319 Speaker 1: and in there was a lot of money, and we're 672 00:46:08,360 --> 00:46:11,760 Speaker 1: on the front page of the Wall three Journal talking 673 00:46:12,120 --> 00:46:17,840 Speaker 1: about the psychic worm corner of the silver market. So 674 00:46:18,960 --> 00:46:23,680 Speaker 1: doing anything nine times in a row in life is remarkable, 675 00:46:24,440 --> 00:46:26,920 Speaker 1: and doing it in a four choice game up a 676 00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:28,880 Speaker 1: little up a lot, down a little down in a 677 00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:33,920 Speaker 1: lot is close to odds of one thousands. And that's 678 00:46:33,960 --> 00:46:38,640 Speaker 1: something people are listening to because, as as you show 679 00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:43,600 Speaker 1: in the film um, there have been people from institutes 680 00:46:43,600 --> 00:46:46,680 Speaker 1: around the world or countries around the world who have 681 00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:52,239 Speaker 1: traveled to attempt to learn these techniques, specifically uh some 682 00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:56,960 Speaker 1: Russian some some Russian individuals and groups. And this this 683 00:46:57,239 --> 00:47:02,040 Speaker 1: leads us to maybe one of the biggest questions that 684 00:47:02,160 --> 00:47:06,720 Speaker 1: people have listening to this, or biggest series of related questions, 685 00:47:08,080 --> 00:47:13,600 Speaker 1: why aren't there publicly working government assets doing this in 686 00:47:13,719 --> 00:47:18,640 Speaker 1: the field today? And also do you believe that there 687 00:47:18,719 --> 00:47:22,960 Speaker 1: may still be some somewhere out there government funded research 688 00:47:23,120 --> 00:47:26,960 Speaker 1: occurring along these lines, maybe not in the public sphere anymore, 689 00:47:27,040 --> 00:47:31,080 Speaker 1: maybe it went underground, or maybe they stopped. What what's 690 00:47:31,120 --> 00:47:34,719 Speaker 1: your take on this? Well, in the film and Third 691 00:47:34,760 --> 00:47:38,520 Speaker 1: Eye Spies, we have kicked Green on camera saying that 692 00:47:38,800 --> 00:47:42,760 Speaker 1: the best of his knowledge is still a underground program 693 00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:47,240 Speaker 1: at the CIA with people doing remote viewing. For example, 694 00:47:47,360 --> 00:47:52,440 Speaker 1: why wouldn't there be that The last effort that that 695 00:47:52,719 --> 00:47:57,160 Speaker 1: Price did at CIA was looking into the code room 696 00:47:57,760 --> 00:48:00,960 Speaker 1: in the Libyan embassy, and he was able to penetrate 697 00:48:01,080 --> 00:48:05,560 Speaker 1: that embassy, find the code room, enter it, and describe 698 00:48:05,600 --> 00:48:08,799 Speaker 1: it to the satisfaction of the CIA who had once 699 00:48:08,880 --> 00:48:13,800 Speaker 1: been there before. And I had trained up to CIA 700 00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:17,720 Speaker 1: operatives who came to us to see people were always 701 00:48:17,800 --> 00:48:20,160 Speaker 1: checked up on us to make sure there's no loophole 702 00:48:20,239 --> 00:48:23,480 Speaker 1: in what we're doing. So we had a man who 703 00:48:23,600 --> 00:48:27,239 Speaker 1: was mainly a lock picker and a woman who was 704 00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:32,239 Speaker 1: a mechanical engineer, both high level CIA operators who came 705 00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:35,359 Speaker 1: to our lab wanted to see how we're doing experiments 706 00:48:35,520 --> 00:48:38,480 Speaker 1: and then they wanted to do it themselves. So we 707 00:48:38,640 --> 00:48:43,359 Speaker 1: had to make sure that our protocol was as tight 708 00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:46,880 Speaker 1: and secure as possible. And both of them did highly 709 00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:52,719 Speaker 1: successful remote viewings of distant places that we would lock 710 00:48:52,800 --> 00:48:55,280 Speaker 1: them into our room and then tape the door shot 711 00:48:55,320 --> 00:48:57,960 Speaker 1: because we didn't trust them either. Then Hall and I 712 00:48:58,040 --> 00:49:00,600 Speaker 1: would go to some random place and both of them 713 00:49:00,680 --> 00:49:04,520 Speaker 1: were able to give exquisite, accurate descriptions of where we 714 00:49:04,600 --> 00:49:10,480 Speaker 1: were hiding. And Kitt Green said that in Pat Price's 715 00:49:10,640 --> 00:49:14,000 Speaker 1: last days at s r I, he was working with 716 00:49:14,239 --> 00:49:19,520 Speaker 1: these two highly trained CIA operatives doing remote viewing at 717 00:49:19,600 --> 00:49:23,279 Speaker 1: the CIA he said, according to his conversation with the 718 00:49:23,800 --> 00:49:27,000 Speaker 1: Director of Intelligence right now, and the film has made 719 00:49:28,040 --> 00:49:32,919 Speaker 1: uh that he believed that there's Joe remote viewing going 720 00:49:32,960 --> 00:49:35,920 Speaker 1: on in the basement of the CIA, and and why 721 00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:43,160 Speaker 1: wouldn't there be m hmm, unfortunately for for all of us, 722 00:49:43,400 --> 00:49:45,400 Speaker 1: especially for you, and I know, oh man, we had 723 00:49:45,440 --> 00:49:48,040 Speaker 1: like fifty questions here, but you know, I mean, podcasting 724 00:49:48,200 --> 00:49:50,160 Speaker 1: technically is an infinite medium, but we shood, we do 725 00:49:50,280 --> 00:49:52,160 Speaker 1: try to keep it a little bit tight if possible. 726 00:49:52,280 --> 00:49:55,280 Speaker 1: You can find the film at all digital platforms starting 727 00:49:55,400 --> 00:49:59,400 Speaker 1: nine o'clock tonight. That's perfect, fantastic and we highly recommend 728 00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:01,360 Speaker 1: the film. Both Ben and I watched it. It is 729 00:50:01,560 --> 00:50:04,239 Speaker 1: I plan on watching it again immediately. There's so much 730 00:50:04,280 --> 00:50:05,920 Speaker 1: stuff in there that we did not cover, which is 731 00:50:05,960 --> 00:50:07,799 Speaker 1: a good thing. So go see the film. You will 732 00:50:07,800 --> 00:50:10,200 Speaker 1: find out a world of information about this, uh, this 733 00:50:10,400 --> 00:50:15,279 Speaker 1: this entire kind of clandestine universe of psychic spies. Yes, 734 00:50:15,600 --> 00:50:19,320 Speaker 1: Russell Targ, thank you so much for your time today. 735 00:50:19,920 --> 00:50:26,920 Speaker 1: Russell Targ folks American physicist, parapsychologist and author, world renowned 736 00:50:27,280 --> 00:50:30,160 Speaker 1: pioneer in the field of remote viewing. And that's not 737 00:50:30,520 --> 00:50:33,400 Speaker 1: that's not our opinion. That's the opinion of the CIA 738 00:50:33,680 --> 00:50:36,120 Speaker 1: very much. So who again, are very hard to please. 739 00:50:36,280 --> 00:50:38,600 Speaker 1: So thank you so much for joining us today for 740 00:50:38,680 --> 00:50:41,239 Speaker 1: the show. Thank you very much for the opportunity. I'm 741 00:50:41,280 --> 00:50:45,359 Speaker 1: happy to chat with you. So we did not get 742 00:50:45,520 --> 00:50:49,720 Speaker 1: to a significant amount of the stuff that we wanted 743 00:50:49,840 --> 00:50:54,399 Speaker 1: to explore with Russell Targ today, but I have to say, 744 00:50:54,640 --> 00:50:58,360 Speaker 1: what a delightful conversation, what a fascinating story. It was 745 00:50:58,400 --> 00:51:01,800 Speaker 1: absolutely fascinating and just a delightful human being to talk to. 746 00:51:01,920 --> 00:51:04,960 Speaker 1: It's such an interesting combination of the love for the 747 00:51:05,080 --> 00:51:08,800 Speaker 1: metaphysical and the physical and his uh separation of the 748 00:51:08,920 --> 00:51:11,200 Speaker 1: mind and brain and soul. All of that is really 749 00:51:11,440 --> 00:51:14,080 Speaker 1: hit home for me. And he was so generous with 750 00:51:14,120 --> 00:51:16,920 Speaker 1: his time that even after we wrapped the interview there 751 00:51:16,960 --> 00:51:18,960 Speaker 1: were topics we wanted to explore more, and he was 752 00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:20,879 Speaker 1: just like, yeah, just call me, well, I'll come back, 753 00:51:21,200 --> 00:51:23,600 Speaker 1: So look for that. Yeah, so look for him to 754 00:51:23,760 --> 00:51:27,120 Speaker 1: return in the meantime. We don't have questions just for 755 00:51:27,320 --> 00:51:30,919 Speaker 1: Russell Targ of course not. If you know this show 756 00:51:31,080 --> 00:51:33,759 Speaker 1: well enough, you know that we always end with questions 757 00:51:33,920 --> 00:51:36,440 Speaker 1: for you. There's a lot of stuff that we didn't 758 00:51:36,480 --> 00:51:40,239 Speaker 1: get to in our initial conversation, but we want to 759 00:51:40,320 --> 00:51:43,480 Speaker 1: know what related topics you believe we should explore in 760 00:51:43,560 --> 00:51:47,279 Speaker 1: the future. We'd also like to hear your take on this. 761 00:51:47,520 --> 00:51:51,279 Speaker 1: Do you think esp remote viewing, clairvoyance, call it what 762 00:51:51,400 --> 00:51:54,200 Speaker 1: you wish? Do you think there is some sand to it? 763 00:51:54,360 --> 00:51:57,719 Speaker 1: And regardless of where you fall into debate, what do 764 00:51:57,800 --> 00:52:00,600 Speaker 1: you think the future of this research holds. I'm also 765 00:52:00,800 --> 00:52:03,879 Speaker 1: very interested to see for any of us listening who 766 00:52:04,120 --> 00:52:07,440 Speaker 1: live in the ivory towers of academia, have you ever 767 00:52:07,640 --> 00:52:13,440 Speaker 1: felt that you were intimidated or bullied away from conducting 768 00:52:13,480 --> 00:52:15,800 Speaker 1: a particular type of research and if so, what And 769 00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:18,480 Speaker 1: I had a question for you, Ben off Air, was 770 00:52:18,600 --> 00:52:20,800 Speaker 1: how is this different from some of the cold reading 771 00:52:20,880 --> 00:52:25,479 Speaker 1: techniques that we associate with mentalists and hypnotists that would 772 00:52:25,480 --> 00:52:28,520 Speaker 1: be um doing more of a parlor trick rather than 773 00:52:28,840 --> 00:52:31,719 Speaker 1: something like this that seems to really have some scientific 774 00:52:31,840 --> 00:52:33,959 Speaker 1: sand behind it. And you had a really good answer 775 00:52:34,000 --> 00:52:37,280 Speaker 1: for Yeah, So there are So there are two different 776 00:52:37,400 --> 00:52:41,680 Speaker 1: types of ways that someone who's perpetrating a fraud or 777 00:52:41,680 --> 00:52:45,400 Speaker 1: a hoax would convince their mark that they had psychic powers. 778 00:52:45,719 --> 00:52:49,120 Speaker 1: One way is called cold reading. Cold reading is when 779 00:52:49,160 --> 00:52:51,440 Speaker 1: you're fishing for things. That's when you hear someone like 780 00:52:51,800 --> 00:52:53,720 Speaker 1: what was that guy a few years ago, John Edwards 781 00:52:53,800 --> 00:52:56,200 Speaker 1: who say I could speak with the deck pick up artists. 782 00:52:56,200 --> 00:52:58,399 Speaker 1: Oh no, no, different, yes exactly. And he would say 783 00:52:58,480 --> 00:53:02,120 Speaker 1: he would say stuff like okay, I'm I'm feeling out 784 00:53:02,160 --> 00:53:06,680 Speaker 1: in the crowd, something with a J A Jeremy John 785 00:53:07,080 --> 00:53:09,879 Speaker 1: a J John John J. And they would they would 786 00:53:09,880 --> 00:53:11,920 Speaker 1: go around like that until someone says, yes, I know 787 00:53:12,120 --> 00:53:15,160 Speaker 1: someone Jeremy and then say, okay, there, I think they're 788 00:53:15,440 --> 00:53:18,120 Speaker 1: They like colors, right, they had a they had a 789 00:53:18,160 --> 00:53:20,800 Speaker 1: favorite color, and then they'll say their favorite color was 790 00:53:20,880 --> 00:53:23,799 Speaker 1: blue and they're like, yes, that's right blue. That's cold reading. 791 00:53:23,880 --> 00:53:26,399 Speaker 1: The second kind is hot reading. Hot reading is when 792 00:53:26,440 --> 00:53:30,120 Speaker 1: you straight up do research beforehand. You google our pal 793 00:53:30,320 --> 00:53:33,000 Speaker 1: Matt Frederick, you learn about his life, and then when 794 00:53:33,040 --> 00:53:35,960 Speaker 1: you meet him you pretend that you're getting a psychic impression. 795 00:53:36,480 --> 00:53:38,759 Speaker 1: This would be a little different the way that they're 796 00:53:38,840 --> 00:53:43,719 Speaker 1: explaining the the coordinate sending or remote sensing UH is 797 00:53:43,800 --> 00:53:49,799 Speaker 1: such that the person who is the interviewer. The role 798 00:53:49,880 --> 00:53:53,480 Speaker 1: Russell targ was playing was was legitimate on his part 799 00:53:53,520 --> 00:53:57,040 Speaker 1: because he did not have knowledge of where his associate 800 00:53:57,160 --> 00:54:01,719 Speaker 1: was taking people they had no pre determined understanding what 801 00:54:01,840 --> 00:54:04,880 Speaker 1: that location would be. So if he didn't know, he 802 00:54:05,000 --> 00:54:09,640 Speaker 1: could not cold read or lead the the person attempting 803 00:54:09,680 --> 00:54:12,560 Speaker 1: to remove you. But that all depends on whether or 804 00:54:12,600 --> 00:54:15,319 Speaker 1: not they had that information. It doesn't sound like they did. 805 00:54:15,480 --> 00:54:17,160 Speaker 1: It does not and adds something that I'm meant to ask, 806 00:54:17,200 --> 00:54:18,719 Speaker 1: but we just had so much stuff to cover that 807 00:54:18,960 --> 00:54:20,719 Speaker 1: it'd slipped my mind. But I think that's a really 808 00:54:20,760 --> 00:54:24,200 Speaker 1: good explanation. Who killed Pat Price? Noal well exactly again, 809 00:54:24,400 --> 00:54:27,160 Speaker 1: subject for another day. In the meantime, if you want 810 00:54:27,200 --> 00:54:28,759 Speaker 1: to reach out to us, you can do so on 811 00:54:28,840 --> 00:54:31,080 Speaker 1: our Facebook group. Here's where it gets crazy, where you 812 00:54:31,080 --> 00:54:33,440 Speaker 1: can post questions. And I think we're gonna start doing 813 00:54:33,440 --> 00:54:36,480 Speaker 1: a thing where we start like a thread for each episode, 814 00:54:36,680 --> 00:54:38,680 Speaker 1: or even let people know in advance what the next 815 00:54:38,719 --> 00:54:40,799 Speaker 1: episode is going to be. We've talked about doing that. Yep. 816 00:54:40,920 --> 00:54:44,000 Speaker 1: The episode thread should be out right now. So go 817 00:54:44,280 --> 00:54:47,800 Speaker 1: join our favorite part of the show, your fellow listeners. 818 00:54:47,960 --> 00:54:49,719 Speaker 1: In the meantime, you can find us on Twitter. You 819 00:54:49,840 --> 00:54:53,239 Speaker 1: can find our show on Instagram where Conspiracy Stuff Show. 820 00:54:53,560 --> 00:54:56,200 Speaker 1: You can also find me personally. I just had some 821 00:54:56,280 --> 00:54:58,960 Speaker 1: weird adventures with a snake I'm at ben Bolan on 822 00:54:59,040 --> 00:55:02,239 Speaker 1: Instagram and i am at Embryonic Insider on Instagram. And 823 00:55:02,320 --> 00:55:04,160 Speaker 1: if you want to call and leave us a voicemail, 824 00:55:04,239 --> 00:55:06,120 Speaker 1: try to keep it to three minutes if you can. 825 00:55:06,360 --> 00:55:09,200 Speaker 1: Otherwise you'll be asked to leave a second voicemail. But 826 00:55:09,320 --> 00:55:12,680 Speaker 1: you can do that at one A three three S 827 00:55:12,800 --> 00:55:16,319 Speaker 1: T d W y t K. It's like we're doing 828 00:55:16,320 --> 00:55:18,480 Speaker 1: an incantation of some common we do that. I like it. 829 00:55:19,160 --> 00:55:21,360 Speaker 1: And if none of that quite bagg your badgers, you 830 00:55:21,520 --> 00:55:24,840 Speaker 1: can reach us directly via an old fashioned email. We 831 00:55:24,960 --> 00:55:27,120 Speaker 1: are conspiracy at how stuff works dot com