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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha, and welcome to stephan

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Speaker 1: never told your prediction about her Idio.

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Speaker 2: And welcome to Feminist Book Club. We're a little late

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Speaker 2: on this one because we had so much good stuff

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Speaker 2: for February, and you know, with a small month, including

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Speaker 2: our return on with one of our favorite people's bridget

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Speaker 2: so we pushed this back a little bit. So we're

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Speaker 2: just going to say we're extending Black History Month and

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Speaker 2: letting it overlap with the Women's History Month, as it should.

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Speaker 2: So we'll just we're just gonna blend the two from

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Speaker 2: February to March to fully celebrate all of that, and

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Speaker 2: that means we are going to do an amazing short

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Speaker 2: story collection.

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Speaker 3: I'm so excited. I love short stories so much.

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Speaker 1: I did too, and I love when they have little

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Speaker 1: pieces that connect to each other, and this one does sometimes.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel like they overlap in so many characters,

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Speaker 2: including cats. Oh so at the very beginning of this,

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Speaker 2: let's go ahead and put content warning. There's a lot

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Speaker 2: of heavy subjects in this one. I will tell you.

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Speaker 2: For me, it was a slower listen slash read because

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Speaker 2: of the intensity of the subjects. So we're talking about

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Speaker 2: enslavement and slavery. We're talking about death and murder, even

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Speaker 2: death of animals, sacrificing of animals, which, by the way,

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Speaker 2: I was not in a great.

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Speaker 3: Place for that.

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Speaker 2: No, I will tell you this a lot of historical

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Speaker 2: contexts that bring a lot of sadness. So just as

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Speaker 2: a reminder, you know, if you need to take time,

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Speaker 2: you should, but you should absolutely read this book when

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Speaker 2: you can get into a good headspace if you can.

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Speaker 2: Since it is a short story collection, you can read one,

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Speaker 2: put it down, come back, So you know you should

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Speaker 2: absolutely do this. And we are talking about Tanana Revedo

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Speaker 2: and her first short story collection, Ghost Summer, which was

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Speaker 2: published as the actual collection in twenty fifteen. But a

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Speaker 2: lot of these stories she's published previously, so I know

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Speaker 2: some of them goes as far back as two thousand

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Speaker 2: and even though that doesn't sound like a long time

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Speaker 2: ago to me, it actually was twenty five years ago,

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Speaker 2: so oh dear gosh. So anyway, all of that to say,

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Speaker 2: is amazing collection of works. But not only is she

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Speaker 2: a writer, she's a professor of black horror as well

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Speaker 2: as executive producer for documentaries such as A Horror Noir,

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Speaker 2: A History of Black Horror, which I think was featured

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Speaker 2: on Shutter And she's also a screenwriter with her husband,

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Speaker 2: who is also collaborated with her on several stories within

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Speaker 2: this collection.

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Speaker 3: So really really great if you have the time. Like

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Speaker 3: I said, it is ghost stories, it is.

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Speaker 2: It is very haunting. Even if it wasn't and it

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Speaker 2: was just like historical tales, it's still haunting.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it creaked me out, to be honest, and I

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Speaker 1: loved it, but it creeped me out. We've been trying

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Speaker 1: to read something from her for a long time because

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Speaker 1: she comes up on a lot of lists, and you

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Speaker 1: know we love horror here, right, so I was very

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Speaker 1: very excited to finally get to do it.

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Speaker 2: She has another short story collection which we need to

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Speaker 2: revisit anyway, but yeah, so this is gonna be a

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Speaker 2: long detailed look at this one collection called Ghost Summer.

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Speaker 2: What we're gonna do because there are they are short

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Speaker 2: stories and are kind of interlinked, but not necessarily interlinked

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Speaker 2: through theme. I mean, there's definitely a common three theme throughout.

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Speaker 2: But with that, we're gonna do a synopsis of the

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Speaker 2: story and then we'll do the theme after that story immediately.

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Speaker 2: So instead of doing our typical tell you the plot,

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Speaker 2: tell you what's going on in the book, and then

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Speaker 2: do themes and have a discussion.

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Speaker 3: We're gonna do it as we go per story.

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Speaker 2: So let's write down the stories and do the themes.

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Speaker 2: We're gonna start with the first story. We are going

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Speaker 2: through the order that she has them in the book,

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Speaker 2: including I believe the three towards the end, not the

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Speaker 2: last three, but towards the end they are actually collect together.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, we'll let you know which ones though.

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Speaker 2: So we're going to start with the lake, and I'm

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Speaker 2: telling you it has hard and fast at the very beginning.

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Speaker 4: YI.

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Speaker 3: So this first story again came.

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Speaker 2: Out with a bane, not only confronting us to the

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Speaker 2: horrors and suspense of a lake. And if you know

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Speaker 2: about han Lakes, you understand us from Georgia.

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Speaker 3: We know about Hanted Lakes.

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Speaker 2: Lake Lanier is a legend in itself, as it should be,

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Speaker 2: and it has a lot of that dark history that

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Speaker 2: Odo actually talks about often throughout her stories, but also

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Speaker 2: inside the mind of a sexual predator. So we have

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Speaker 2: teacher Abby Lafleur who just moved to the town of

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Speaker 2: Gracetown and there she escaped from her previous area, moved

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Speaker 2: near lake to her new home. She was isolated, but

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Speaker 2: she had a new start as she made plans for

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Speaker 2: the upcoming school year. She enjoyed her new home and.

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Speaker 3: Her new lake.

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Speaker 2: Though the town knows better than just swim during this time,

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Speaker 2: I think it's summertimes.

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Speaker 4: This summertimes, it's all summer.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, summertimes. You don't swim in the lake, she

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Speaker 3: goes for it anyway, even though she's not a great swimmer.

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Speaker 3: Soon she becomes an avid water person. All the while,

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Speaker 3: she has met her new students and has focused on

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Speaker 3: one specific boy, young boy. But at the same time,

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Speaker 3: she's also become obsessed with the lake, and the lake

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Speaker 3: was becoming obsessed with her, or better possessing her. Her

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Speaker 3: feet got larger and she starts to grow webs on

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Speaker 3: her feet, and then there's this need for her to

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Speaker 3: be in the water. She even has dreams of it

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Speaker 3: going back. Soon she starts having the young boy whose

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Speaker 3: name is Derek, come over to help remodel the home,

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Speaker 3: and I'm putting that quotes. She Soon he and his

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Speaker 3: cousin start coming to help and fix our home, which

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Speaker 3: also turns into them going and swimming in the lake,

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Speaker 3: even though the boys know better than to go swimming

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Speaker 3: in the lake. They're they're her blood less tests, and

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Speaker 3: she is contemplating on whether to give into her new

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Speaker 3: desire to eat one of the young boys. And that's

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Speaker 3: how it ends.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it ends with like a it sounds like that's

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Speaker 1: what's going to happen, because she's like, I can see

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Speaker 1: the scandal play out now. I could have avoided it

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Speaker 1: if I hadn't torn open his stomach coming right WHOA.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Like she has this back and forth of like

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Speaker 2: he's someone's son, he hasn't lived his life, blah blah,

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Speaker 2: and it wasn't Derek. The original boy actually was the

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Speaker 2: cousin who dared to go swim with him.

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Speaker 3: It was so dou wrote this.

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Speaker 2: At the end of each story, she gives a kind

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Speaker 2: of like a summary, a little bit about what has

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Speaker 2: been published in as well as some of her thoughts

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Speaker 2: or the reason that she wrote it, the theme. She

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Speaker 2: might have been given a prompt about what to write,

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Speaker 2: and this one she wrote This was using the prompter

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Speaker 2: theme of monsters perspective, and she talks about it being

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Speaker 2: a true predator. A sexual predator was the one she

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Speaker 2: used as her monster.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so here's the quote from do the theme stories

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Speaker 1: from the monster's point of view. Some of my favorite

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Speaker 1: stories have been written to themes from places I would

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Speaker 1: not have explored otherwise. The first monster that came to

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Speaker 1: mind a sexual predator. If only real monsters grew webbed

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Speaker 1: feet and gills.

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Speaker 3: So, and I don't talk about the different perspectives because

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Speaker 3: obviously is a lot.

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Speaker 2: I don't want you to. I don't want to reread

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Speaker 2: the story to you. I want you to tell you

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Speaker 2: what it's about, but you need to go back and

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Speaker 2: read read. One of the perspective is that she has

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Speaker 2: a close co worker as well as a friend who

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Speaker 2: has been accused also of sexual advances to a young child,

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Speaker 2: so being a child molester one of her students as well,

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Speaker 2: and she had to run away from that scandal, which

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Speaker 2: that scandal had that point of like eating up young

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Speaker 2: boys essentially, but yeah, and how she didn't want that

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Speaker 2: to follow her. She got away from that, but her

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Speaker 2: friend wasn't so lucky. Type of conversation. So it is

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Speaker 2: really interesting. It's an interesting perspective because we also don't

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Speaker 2: see oftentimes when teachers who are women who pray on young.

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Speaker 3: Boys are at c as predators.

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Speaker 2: Oftentimes they're seen as like fempatales type of thing, in

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Speaker 2: that level of being sexy and seductive and almost like

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Speaker 2: idolized in the it was really refreshing to see this

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Speaker 2: perspective of seeing her as a monster, as a predator

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Speaker 2: as she should if she is, you know, honing it

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Speaker 2: on young boys and plotting for these young boys. But yeah,

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Speaker 2: like I said, the first story hit with a bang.

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Speaker 1: I was well, damn, yeah, yeah, it sure did. And

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Speaker 1: I have to say we didn't say this at the top,

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Speaker 1: but one of the things I really liked about this

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Speaker 1: book is it's so many different genres, so many different things.

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Speaker 1: So here I am, I'm reading this like, oh, okay,

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Speaker 1: monsters and then different things.

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Speaker 4: A lot of different things happened.

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Speaker 2: Right, And I love that too. I think she does

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Speaker 2: such a great job and overlaying what horror can be,

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Speaker 2: whether it is h monsters or apocalyptic or ghosts yeah,

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Speaker 2: or possessions.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's good.

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Speaker 2: She also has a like common use of places and

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Speaker 2: lands and people. Yeah, so I don't always know because

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Speaker 2: like we're about to come into another story and it's

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Speaker 2: gonna also feature fictional place of Iceland, which is like

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Speaker 2: at the border of Florida, like near Georgia border, So

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Speaker 2: there's so many things here. She also talks about like

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Speaker 2: I two eighty five, which if you're from Atlanta, you know,

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Speaker 2: and like I'm like, I think I could find a

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Speaker 2: spot Atlanta Highway is like, yeah that exists.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's very southern. A lot of it is very southern. Yes,

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Speaker 1: so it's really interesting. We were like, hey, I don't

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Speaker 1: know where that is. Oh wow, yeah, why we were.

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Speaker 2: Talking about Anie's hometown even we are. But anyway, so

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Speaker 2: that's the lake. So she's got us with the very beginning.

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Speaker 3: Of like, well, here you go.

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Speaker 2: It's some deep things here, and we're jumping into the

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Speaker 2: next story called Summer. And in this one we have

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Speaker 2: Danielle and her baby Lola, who have come to Grace Lane.

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Speaker 2: While her husband Carl was gone with the military, she

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Speaker 2: came back and lived in her late grandmother's home.

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Speaker 3: Lola.

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Speaker 2: Lola, the baby seemed pretty fussy and who didn't mind

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Speaker 2: seeing her mom in pain, would laugh when things would

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Speaker 2: happen like grabbing our hair, grabbing our earrings, making her

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Speaker 2: bleed like so pretty fussy baby. At the same time,

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Speaker 2: in this area, she's talking to all her people that

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Speaker 2: she knows, and they talk about deaths in the area.

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Speaker 2: Seven bodies have been unaccounted for, and the mccormicks an

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Speaker 2: old white family with a lot of rumors around that

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Speaker 2: area that they are involved in this. So when I

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Speaker 2: say old white family, this family is the quintessential owned slaves,

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Speaker 2: had money from that era and was not apologetic. So

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Speaker 2: that's that. We have Odetta, who is Danielle's older cousin

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Speaker 2: who kind of helps her throughout this time and one

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Speaker 2: of the only family members that she gets along with.

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Speaker 2: And she talks about the swamp leeches, which here's quote

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Speaker 2: from that swamp leeches are different. It's just the name

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Speaker 2: Mamma used to call them by. You could call them

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Speaker 2: lots of things. Mostly people call them demons, I guess.

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Speaker 2: So these leeches possess you. And though Danielle doesn't really

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Speaker 2: believe her, soon after we find that Lola has been

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Speaker 2: possessed to the point like the tail goes that something

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Speaker 2: comes to get them. Lola the next day seems weirdly perfect,

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Speaker 2: and when she's changing her diaper, a leech comes out

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Speaker 2: and she's like, oh my god. So she's screaming and

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Speaker 2: like the like of course, all the normal reactions I

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Speaker 2: think you would have after seeing that, and Lola becomes

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Speaker 2: a whole different baby who adored her mother, or pretends

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Speaker 2: to as I'm like, she knows this what normal babies

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Speaker 2: should be doing. And Danielle goes to Adetta and Odana's

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Speaker 2: uncle to get help, and they are like, they really

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Speaker 2: treat this like, eh, it's not a big deal and

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Speaker 2: it's not your typical demon possession where they're trying to

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Speaker 2: do anything bad. No one knows why. They just stay

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Speaker 2: around for maybe a couple of years and that's it, and.

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Speaker 3: Then they just leave.

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Speaker 4: I thought it was just summer.

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Speaker 3: Was it summer? I thought it was a couple of years.

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Speaker 1: It could be, but it's summer is when it happens.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, but it goes away.

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Speaker 2: It goes away, and there's nothing that happens to the baby.

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Speaker 2: Lola is fine. The child may never remember, but that

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Speaker 2: the entire time, the child will be well behaved, who

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Speaker 2: acts like they adore the mother. She even can repeat words,

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Speaker 2: so all these different things soon, but you know, Danielle's

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Speaker 2: freaking out. She wants a remedy whatever, but the remedy

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Speaker 2: is not like anything. She knows about, so she doesn't

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Speaker 2: quite know what's in this remedy that the uncle has.

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Speaker 3: So Danielle gets.

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Speaker 2: It though, and takes it with her, and she debates

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Speaker 2: whether or not to give it to her at all.

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Speaker 4: So yeah, because it's nice because baby.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So du speaks about her own experiences of motherhood and

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Speaker 2: it's many challenges, but also opens up to the histories

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Speaker 2: of enslaved people and the many who went missing. So

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Speaker 2: that is also a theme that we're going to go

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Speaker 2: back into in the next story. But just like and

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Speaker 2: I think we've had like the historical amounts of people.

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Speaker 2: I know a lot of the stories from uh, Mississippi

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Speaker 2: and Alabama, and I'm sure there's some in Georgia, but

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Speaker 2: for some reason, I hear the Mississippi Alabama versions like

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Speaker 2: mass graves of enslaved people who just went missing and

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Speaker 2: disappeared that were just covered late Land near like there's

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Speaker 2: tales of so that I do know people from. I

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Speaker 2: do know things from Atlanta. Yes, from Georgia, late Land

264
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Speaker 2: near like that that the entire area, which was mainly

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Speaker 2: like a black community, was flooded and so there's literal homes,

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Speaker 2: literal houses under that lake.

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Speaker 1: Uh so there's a horror movie about it. I don't think, well,

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Speaker 1: I haven't seen it, so I don't know if it's

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Speaker 1: any good. But there is a horror movie about it,

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Speaker 1: and there is a podcast about it that my friends

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Speaker 1: listen to. And it's funny because they pronounced it like

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Speaker 1: the meear. They did something interesting with the pronunciation. But yes,

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Speaker 1: it has been discussed.

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Speaker 3: I think it's a French name, right.

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Speaker 4: I always thought it was, but you know.

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Speaker 3: It is, so we definitely don't pronounce it right.

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Speaker 1: No. That's the funny thing is you know when you're

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Speaker 1: from a place and it's not like you're pronouncing it correctly.

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Speaker 3: No, we're definitely not.

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Speaker 2: But I mean we had that moment we're going to

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Speaker 2: talk about your hometown, Dalanago. He says, yeah, though correct pronunciation.

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Speaker 2: I was like, I never knew that, and that makes

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Speaker 2: a lot of sense.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, but that's just not how we pronounce it.

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Speaker 2: But with all all of that, that does come up,

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Speaker 2: and I think with something that we need to know

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Speaker 2: because do thus use her historical own history as well

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Speaker 2: as the area's history of enslavement and the people who've

289
00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:18,960
Speaker 2: been mistreated and abused or ousted throughout her stories and

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Speaker 2: though that's not the central theme obviously, that's definitely a theme.

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Speaker 2: That's something that needs to be said, that needs to

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Speaker 2: be told, and she does a great job in intertwining

293
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Speaker 2: those tales, so very good.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, this one is about like what would you do?

295
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Speaker 2: And she talks about her own experiences like b it, man,

296
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Speaker 2: I don't know if that baby you stop crying for

297
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Speaker 2: a minute, I'm not being okay, And it didn't really

298
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Speaker 2: harm them, why not?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's also like I think the baby just

300
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Speaker 1: doesn't really need to sleep or eat.

301
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Speaker 2: It's just quiet, like happily staring at the mother and

302
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Speaker 2: just staring. That would unnerve me, just having them staring

303
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Speaker 2: me the whole time, smiling smart.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yes, And it was interesting how Odetta and the

305
00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:09,480
Speaker 1: uncle were so it's fine whatever. And at first Danielle

306
00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:12,280
Speaker 1: was so freaked out, but by the end of the day.

307
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Speaker 2: She was like, oh, nap, like she's not fussying, and

308
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Speaker 2: her hair is looking good and she looks like a

309
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Speaker 2: really well behaved baby. As before people would give her

310
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Speaker 2: looks and this then she was getting compliments all of

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Speaker 2: a sudden about how great the baby she had, and

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00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:30,440
Speaker 2: you know that does feed a lot. Like I get

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Speaker 2: that because it does feel like like just a person

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Speaker 2: as who take care of children and have children as

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Speaker 2: a nanny, Like even though it was obvious that they

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Speaker 2: weren't mine, Like if they misbehaved, it embarrassed me, and

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Speaker 2: I would give them the mom look and they would

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Speaker 2: calm down, do not embarrass me.

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Speaker 3: So like you understand that level.

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Speaker 2: Of like needing that peace because you get judged as

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Speaker 2: a mom or a caretaker if the baby is unhappy

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Speaker 2: for some god for God forbid, make a loud noise.

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Speaker 3: You know, like an understanding moment of like.

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Speaker 2: Oh, this is peaceful, if I could just have this.

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Speaker 2: Because she also talks about the fact that her husband

326
00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:08,520
Speaker 2: is gone, but when her husband is around, the baby

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Speaker 2: is so much better.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, she really thinks the baby hates.

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Speaker 3: Her and she goes to be postpartum.

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Speaker 1: She talks about that a little bit too, but dismisses

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Speaker 1: it pretty quick like no way, I'm too strong for that.

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Speaker 3: Right, A lot of themes in that short story. It's

333
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Speaker 3: not even that short.

334
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Speaker 2: None of these stories are that short, but definitely, like

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Speaker 2: I believe the next one is actually could be qualified

336
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Speaker 2: as a novella, and I think was a novella.

337
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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's it's much longer.

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Speaker 3: So this one's a little longer, a little more detailed.

339
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Speaker 2: I will say this one got me like I was

340
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Speaker 2: like seated where I had to be like I can't

341
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Speaker 2: get up yet I have to keep listening. I can't

342
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Speaker 2: do this other thing, so I have to finish the story.

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Speaker 3: It was one of those.

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Speaker 2: So it is titled Ghost Summer, and we meet Davey Stevens,

345
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Speaker 2: a twelve year old boy whose mom is from God

346
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Speaker 2: and father from the US, Gracetown specifically, his mom had

347
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Speaker 2: decided to go back to Ghana to see her family

348
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Speaker 2: for a few months, while he and his younger sister,

349
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Speaker 2: Nima went with his dad to visit his grandparents in Gracetown. Now,

350
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Speaker 2: yes they went with him, but all of this was

351
00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:20,000
Speaker 2: weird set up in which Davies and Nima had a

352
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Speaker 2: choice of whether or not to go to Ghana with her

353
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Speaker 2: his mom, or go with their father, and they chose

354
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Speaker 2: to go with their father. They had reasons and were

355
00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:30,359
Speaker 2: about to find out the reasons, but it almost looked

356
00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:33,679
Speaker 2: like his mom was hurt that she chose they chose that,

357
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Speaker 2: but she accepted it. And it's like the way that

358
00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:38,879
Speaker 2: they said goodbye was odd. He was just kind of like,

359
00:18:39,040 --> 00:18:41,160
Speaker 2: I honestly expected her to die in a plane crash

360
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Speaker 2: or something.

361
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Speaker 3: Or that she was already a ghost. I thought she was.

362
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Speaker 3: She was our ghost.

363
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Speaker 2: The way it began, yeah, I was like, what's happening?

364
00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:50,840
Speaker 2: But it did not turn that that way. But the

365
00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:53,160
Speaker 2: way it was set up, I was ready for it. Yeah,

366
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Speaker 2: it wasn't, but he was excited.

367
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Speaker 3: Oh.

368
00:18:57,400 --> 00:19:00,200
Speaker 2: His older sister, who was also kind of around, was

369
00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:02,600
Speaker 2: heading to Northwestern for the summer, so she didn't carry

370
00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:03,040
Speaker 2: either way.

371
00:19:04,080 --> 00:19:05,240
Speaker 3: He is excited to go.

372
00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:08,840
Speaker 2: Not because it was fun, because there were ghosts and

373
00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:11,119
Speaker 2: he wanted to be able to record and prove the

374
00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:15,919
Speaker 2: existence of ghosts. And so during this time, it turns

375
00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:21,560
Speaker 2: out everybody, any child that is under twelve can see ghosts,

376
00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:24,840
Speaker 2: but after that age you no longer see them. And

377
00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:27,280
Speaker 2: so his sister, his older sister, even talks about it.

378
00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:29,240
Speaker 2: She had seen them as well, and she knew what

379
00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:33,160
Speaker 2: he was talking about, and she believed him. Other adults

380
00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:36,960
Speaker 2: oftentimes would believe him as well, not necessarily the grandmother.

381
00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:38,960
Speaker 2: The grandmother didn't remember anything. I don't think she was

382
00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:42,399
Speaker 2: actually from there. I can't remember. His grandfather was and

383
00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:45,080
Speaker 2: grandfather wanted to leave and run away, and then they

384
00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:46,760
Speaker 2: did for a while, but then came back. I think

385
00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:49,159
Speaker 2: they went to Miami and came back. His father was

386
00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:52,600
Speaker 2: not there during his childhood. They had left and because

387
00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:55,639
Speaker 2: the grandfather refused to be there with him, So this

388
00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:58,119
Speaker 2: is kind of that setup. But when they retired, they

389
00:19:58,119 --> 00:20:01,119
Speaker 2: decided they wanted more land, more space, like all that,

390
00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:02,280
Speaker 2: and came back to Graystown.

391
00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:04,200
Speaker 3: So all that.

392
00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:07,480
Speaker 2: However, at Gracetown he discovered that his mother and grandfather

393
00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:10,800
Speaker 2: were possibly separating. He says the D word as a divorce,

394
00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:13,320
Speaker 2: and that he and his sister maybe moving to Ghana.

395
00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:16,479
Speaker 2: But soon he was distracted by the ghosts. So all

396
00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:19,280
Speaker 2: these overlaying traumpas were happening. He was both excited about

397
00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:21,480
Speaker 2: ghosts and then scared about the ghosts, but also hearing

398
00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:24,240
Speaker 2: about the divorce that's happening at his father breaking down

399
00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:27,680
Speaker 2: and possibly losing the children. All those things were happening.

400
00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:30,400
Speaker 2: At the same time. He had ran into three young

401
00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:32,960
Speaker 2: boys in the woods and it looked like they were

402
00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:35,520
Speaker 2: burying their dog, so he tried to He got the

403
00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:38,520
Speaker 2: attention of the youngest one, but they didn't react much.

404
00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:41,000
Speaker 2: He just kind of looked and looked away. So after

405
00:20:41,040 --> 00:20:42,520
Speaker 2: that he was like, you know what, I'm gonna go.

406
00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:45,200
Speaker 2: I'm gonna go, So he leaves. Soon after, he heard

407
00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:48,280
Speaker 2: what sounded like a dog sniffing at his doorway. So

408
00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:50,000
Speaker 2: bedtime has happened. He's in bed and all of a

409
00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:53,320
Speaker 2: sudden he's hearing dogs sniffing at the door. In fear,

410
00:20:53,359 --> 00:20:56,320
Speaker 2: he tried to stay quiet, but the next day he realized, oh,

411
00:20:56,359 --> 00:20:58,359
Speaker 2: I missed my chance. So he decided he needed to

412
00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:03,280
Speaker 2: see and prepare himself with dog biscuits and flashlights and

413
00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:06,040
Speaker 2: video recorders and other recorders and all that stuff, so

414
00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:08,679
Speaker 2: he was ready. He was on the ghost hunt. He

415
00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:11,640
Speaker 2: decided to stay up in the living room. But during

416
00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:15,080
Speaker 2: all of this, Niema decided she wanted to join as well,

417
00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:17,400
Speaker 2: so he let her and she did a pretty good job.

418
00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:19,280
Speaker 2: At first, she was whiny, but then soon she was

419
00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:22,800
Speaker 2: into it. That night, not only did they hear the dog,

420
00:21:23,119 --> 00:21:25,199
Speaker 2: but they also saw three young boys walking through the

421
00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:29,160
Speaker 2: waters away from dog. The dog they felt the water

422
00:21:30,359 --> 00:21:32,520
Speaker 2: that night, they felt the dogs heard the boys and

423
00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:35,000
Speaker 2: tried to follow them, and Davy was able to capture

424
00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:38,399
Speaker 2: an image through a doorway. All the while, we find

425
00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:41,399
Speaker 2: out that there's a redevelopment near the McCormick land. So

426
00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:43,720
Speaker 2: the mccormicks are back. This is the white family that

427
00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:47,600
Speaker 2: had had slaves on their land and would not admit

428
00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:51,680
Speaker 2: they did anything wrong. But grandma, his grandma is against

429
00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:53,840
Speaker 2: us and have attended the meetings to try to stop

430
00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:57,120
Speaker 2: this redevelopment. We learned that there was a dark history

431
00:21:57,119 --> 00:22:00,640
Speaker 2: of the land and that is why conversations bodies being

432
00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:03,280
Speaker 2: missing and buried in this area has been around for

433
00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:06,680
Speaker 2: a while, and during a faithful visit to the library,

434
00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:10,040
Speaker 2: Davy discovers the history of what was happening. Three young

435
00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:12,959
Speaker 2: boys had gone missing, and many blamed that on the mccormicks.

436
00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:16,000
Speaker 2: The young boy's father, Isaiah Timmins, a black man who

437
00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:19,439
Speaker 2: was somewhat successful in the area and had dreams of

438
00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:22,200
Speaker 2: leaving Gracetown and being with his brother in New York

439
00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:25,600
Speaker 2: with his family. So because he was somewhat successful and

440
00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:28,000
Speaker 2: I don't mean really successful, he was able to work

441
00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:30,080
Speaker 2: and get money and save some money and have land,

442
00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:34,439
Speaker 2: and that was successful to them. Many of the white people,

443
00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:37,320
Speaker 2: including the mccormicks, really hated him and took advantage of him,

444
00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:40,480
Speaker 2: like wouldn't pay for things wouldn't pay for his services,

445
00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:45,760
Speaker 2: would like all those things. But soon there was a

446
00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:49,240
Speaker 2: fire that took Timmins's barn. So there was a barn fire.

447
00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:53,639
Speaker 2: Timmins decided they needed to leave immediately. Isaiah was sure

448
00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:56,080
Speaker 2: it was McCormick who had done this out of spite

449
00:22:56,119 --> 00:22:58,560
Speaker 2: and racism and hate, and he just wanted to get

450
00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:00,840
Speaker 2: his family out for safety. He was like, I'm so

451
00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:03,679
Speaker 2: grateful that no one got hurt, but this is a warning.

452
00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:04,879
Speaker 3: This is a warning we have to go.

453
00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:07,240
Speaker 2: And as they were preparing to go, the three boys

454
00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:10,520
Speaker 2: disappeared without a trace, which ended with the murder of

455
00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:14,000
Speaker 2: Isaiah and his appearance and a murder of a lot

456
00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:17,359
Speaker 2: of black men in the area because he had, in

457
00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:20,760
Speaker 2: his fit of trying to find the boys, he had

458
00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:24,879
Speaker 2: pointed a gun at McCormick, and that enough was a

459
00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:27,640
Speaker 2: death sentence for him and other men other black men

460
00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:31,560
Speaker 2: in that area. So Essie, Isaiah's wife, is in mourning

461
00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:34,119
Speaker 2: and she stays behind to try to search for the boys,

462
00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:36,040
Speaker 2: and during the time she also has a young daughter

463
00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:37,800
Speaker 2: with her, but like the young daughter kind of get

464
00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:41,840
Speaker 2: cast aside because she is in such mourning and trying

465
00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:45,040
Speaker 2: to find the boys. So that's the story of the

466
00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:48,640
Speaker 2: Timmins kids. At the beginning of the story, we find

467
00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:51,359
Speaker 2: out that where his grandparents' house was, it was a

468
00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:54,280
Speaker 2: swamp area, so that's why the water comes into play,

469
00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:57,639
Speaker 2: and that's why they fill it. So with that his

470
00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:02,080
Speaker 2: time with his grandfather and and father, they proceeded to

471
00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:04,880
Speaker 2: do their hunt. The waters returned and the boys and

472
00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:08,879
Speaker 2: the dogs. However, once again the older men the adults

473
00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:10,720
Speaker 2: could not see or feel any of this. It was

474
00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:13,800
Speaker 2: just Nima and Davy explaining what was happening. As they

475
00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:17,240
Speaker 2: were going about during their hunt, they hear a horrible

476
00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:20,000
Speaker 2: streak and stop the search, to the point that all

477
00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:23,840
Speaker 2: of them the that Neimo got very scared and so

478
00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:26,439
Speaker 2: they stopped as well as Davey obviously, but Nimo was

479
00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:31,040
Speaker 2: the focus point. So the next day, even though Grandma

480
00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:33,639
Speaker 2: wasn't happy, they talked to her into allowing them to

481
00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:35,960
Speaker 2: have another hunt. So she was like, you know what,

482
00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:37,720
Speaker 2: if you're gonna do this, I'm gonna give you more supplies,

483
00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:40,480
Speaker 2: including a rain jacket and a more powerful light. She's like,

484
00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:42,600
Speaker 2: if you're gonna do this, you're gonna have stacks they had.

485
00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:46,960
Speaker 2: I'm like, yes, Grandma prepped them up. That night, the

486
00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:50,200
Speaker 2: four went searching again. This time the noise and the

487
00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:52,720
Speaker 2: shouts and things were so loud that the windows in

488
00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:53,920
Speaker 2: the house cracked, two of them.

489
00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:55,080
Speaker 3: Grandpa was not happy.

490
00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:57,600
Speaker 2: He didn't hear anything, but saw obviously as a window cracking,

491
00:24:57,600 --> 00:24:59,600
Speaker 2: and he was like, what are you doing, like yelling

492
00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:04,040
Speaker 2: at the quite funny almost and Grandpa was like, I'm

493
00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:07,080
Speaker 2: done because at this point, the ghosts and the dog

494
00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:09,920
Speaker 2: there's a dog in this whole thing, have gone outside

495
00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:12,080
Speaker 2: of the house, and he says, I'm not leaving. I'm

496
00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:15,360
Speaker 2: gonna sit here. Y'all do your thing. So Dad agreed,

497
00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:17,879
Speaker 2: which was very surprising for Davy to go and follow

498
00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:22,200
Speaker 2: them into the woods and they go together. Nima, Davy

499
00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:24,199
Speaker 2: and the Dad go into the woods. And at this

500
00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:26,720
Speaker 2: point we know that the barn fire from years ago

501
00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:29,840
Speaker 2: actually wasn't because of the mccormicks. No, we learned that

502
00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:32,320
Speaker 2: it was an accident that the three young boys had

503
00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:35,040
Speaker 2: caused while they were cooking and having a fire up

504
00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:38,840
Speaker 2: a food fire. They were afraid to admit it and

505
00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:40,919
Speaker 2: thought it would be better for Dad to believe it

506
00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:42,399
Speaker 2: was the white man, you know, like, you know what,

507
00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:44,320
Speaker 2: We're gonna let them be blamed. They probably would have

508
00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:46,840
Speaker 2: done it anyway, so we're gonna go ahead and say, yeah, sure.

509
00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:48,760
Speaker 2: But when they found out they would be leaving the

510
00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:51,639
Speaker 2: next day, the oldest one wanted to say goodbye to

511
00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:54,119
Speaker 2: his girl. So we have this conversation about him, like

512
00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:56,040
Speaker 2: need to say bye, it's his girl, you know, all

513
00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:58,240
Speaker 2: these things. So he snuck out with the other two

514
00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:01,879
Speaker 2: who had begged to come with him that night. Unfortunately,

515
00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:04,680
Speaker 2: they had to cross McCormick land, which was guarded by

516
00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:08,359
Speaker 2: McCormick's German shepherd, and soon the boys ended up being

517
00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:12,000
Speaker 2: chased by this very giant, mean dog, who they said

518
00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:16,200
Speaker 2: the mccormicks had trained to hate black people. So as Davy,

519
00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:19,320
Speaker 2: his father, and Nima followed the ghosts, they realized that

520
00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:21,560
Speaker 2: they too were being followed by this dog. They were

521
00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:25,080
Speaker 2: being now hunted by this dog. Nima is bitten by

522
00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:28,159
Speaker 2: the invisible dog, and slowly their father, who was not

523
00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:30,600
Speaker 2: able to who has never heard of these ghosts, or

524
00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:32,359
Speaker 2: had never heard or seen these ghosts, all of a

525
00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:35,240
Speaker 2: sudden can hear them as well, and he can hear

526
00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:38,240
Speaker 2: the dog. He's freaking out, He's like, what is going on?

527
00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:40,480
Speaker 2: And he can fill the waters for the first time,

528
00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:43,679
Speaker 2: and as they tried to escape, the dog going the

529
00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:47,280
Speaker 2: same direction as the three young boys the ghosts, Davy

530
00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:50,159
Speaker 2: is attacked as well. Dad attacks the dog with a

531
00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:52,880
Speaker 2: shovel and they try to escape. Davy then falls into

532
00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:56,040
Speaker 2: a giant hole which but is saved by roots that

533
00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:58,520
Speaker 2: his jacket gets caught on. And this hole was from

534
00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:00,760
Speaker 2: like an older building that had caved in a long

535
00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:04,080
Speaker 2: time ago. Their Davy c's three sets of eyes at

536
00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:07,879
Speaker 2: the bottom of the darkness in that hole, just staring

537
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:10,480
Speaker 2: back at him. His Dad was able to get him

538
00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:13,159
Speaker 2: out of that hole, thank goodness. And then they were

539
00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:15,840
Speaker 2: still running away from that dog, so they ran to

540
00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:16,800
Speaker 2: a nearby.

541
00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:17,960
Speaker 3: Barn and locked the doors.

542
00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:20,960
Speaker 2: So the next day they are found by rescue crew

543
00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:24,440
Speaker 2: and they tell everybody what they discovered, including Davy saying,

544
00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:26,199
Speaker 2: I know where the boys are and I know what

545
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:30,600
Speaker 2: happened to them. A crew came and dug up the

546
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:33,840
Speaker 2: hole where they found the bodies of the three boys,

547
00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:37,160
Speaker 2: a mystery that had finally been solved. The boy's sister,

548
00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:40,040
Speaker 2: who had stayed to get justice, watched as they pulled

549
00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:42,800
Speaker 2: out the remains and as Davy is leaving because they

550
00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:45,520
Speaker 2: had come back to witness this the digging. They all

551
00:27:45,520 --> 00:28:11,119
Speaker 2: give him a standing ovation for his heroism.

552
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:06,240
Speaker 1: And this one do has a real interesting connection to

553
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:10,239
Speaker 1: she said, this story and the previous one Summer are

554
00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:14,040
Speaker 1: a kind of odd prophecy. In twenty thirteen, I received

555
00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:17,000
Speaker 1: a call from the Florida Attorney General's Office informing me

556
00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:20,720
Speaker 1: that my late mother, Patricia Stevens Dew, had an uncle,

557
00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:24,520
Speaker 1: Robert Stevens, who probably was among dozens of children buried

558
00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:27,119
Speaker 1: on the grounds of the Doziers School for Boys, a

559
00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:30,720
Speaker 1: reform school in Marianna, Florida, where boys were tortured and

560
00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:34,240
Speaker 1: killed for generations. I had never heard of the Dozier

561
00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:37,840
Speaker 1: School buried children or Robert Stevens, my great uncle, who

562
00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:41,160
Speaker 1: died there in nineteen thirty seven at fifteen. But months

563
00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:43,720
Speaker 1: later my father, husband, son and I would go to

564
00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:47,160
Speaker 1: the excavation site in the woods in Marianna, where University

565
00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:50,240
Speaker 1: of South Florida researchers sifted through the soil in search

566
00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:53,320
Speaker 1: of bones, just like I had written in Ghost Summer

567
00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:54,680
Speaker 1: five years earlier.

568
00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:59,840
Speaker 2: Right, that's such an interesting and interesting like what, yeah,

569
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:03,800
Speaker 2: this was so personal to her, but she'd written this beforehand,

570
00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:08,680
Speaker 2: Like wow, and then that takes place in Florida. Yeah,

571
00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:12,200
Speaker 2: this should be too shocking, but yeah, that whole story

572
00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:16,200
Speaker 2: was intense, and I was also like what happened in

573
00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:17,920
Speaker 2: trying to figure out a lot of it, Like I said,

574
00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:19,440
Speaker 2: was like, is this the ghost?

575
00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:20,080
Speaker 3: Is this?

576
00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:23,080
Speaker 2: Because like there's a bit where Nima is sleeping in

577
00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:25,560
Speaker 2: a room with all these old dolls by the way,

578
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:28,640
Speaker 2: hele no, hell no, I would never. I would never,

579
00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:32,360
Speaker 2: and thinking that they may be coming to life or whatever.

580
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:34,160
Speaker 2: So I thought maybe that was a point of the story.

581
00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:36,560
Speaker 3: Nope, that was not. That was literally like just a

582
00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:38,880
Speaker 3: like distraction.

583
00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:43,440
Speaker 1: A red hair it was. Yeah, And also we should

584
00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:47,560
Speaker 1: mention the dad. Davy's dad is a producer film producer,

585
00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:51,200
Speaker 1: and he was documenting all of this and planning on

586
00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:53,920
Speaker 1: making it into a documentary. And so at the end

587
00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:57,160
Speaker 1: he's like, now, if we make this, I can go

588
00:29:57,280 --> 00:30:02,640
Speaker 1: to Ghana with y'all. Maybe we can you and me

589
00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:04,760
Speaker 1: and your mom can repair a relationships.

590
00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:08,040
Speaker 2: So right, so he does not want to get divorced,

591
00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:10,320
Speaker 2: but the mom has been alone so often.

592
00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:13,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, she was weren't kih so much with that.

593
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:15,800
Speaker 2: Documentary and he's not like they made made sure we

594
00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:20,080
Speaker 2: knew he wasn't making money, it was just minimal. So

595
00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:23,440
Speaker 2: this if he could sell this story well, which he

596
00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:26,280
Speaker 2: was doing, and he's like he said, us, me and you,

597
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:28,720
Speaker 2: Davy and Davy, who had been trying to do some

598
00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:31,560
Speaker 2: type of documentary, could be together.

599
00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:33,000
Speaker 3: So oh.

600
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:34,640
Speaker 2: And it talks about how he had to grow up

601
00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:37,760
Speaker 2: so quick just to learn about this history and seeing

602
00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:42,760
Speaker 2: this conversation and that he did really like unravel a

603
00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:47,160
Speaker 2: huge burden that had been over the town.

604
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:49,200
Speaker 3: But it was such a sad tale.

605
00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:53,640
Speaker 4: It was very sad, and and it.

606
00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:55,800
Speaker 1: Also relates, yes, back to I think in the past

607
00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:59,880
Speaker 1: two stories we've discussed, they mentioned the finding of the bodies, right,

608
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:04,200
Speaker 1: and so this is sort of the not necessarily resolution

609
00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:06,200
Speaker 1: to that, but a resolution to part of that.

610
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:09,160
Speaker 2: Right, Why there was soondy So the explanation of so

611
00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:13,320
Speaker 2: many bodies were that when essentially they called it a

612
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:16,280
Speaker 2: riot because the black men were trying to search for

613
00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:18,880
Speaker 2: these boys and then they all got murdered by the

614
00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:24,120
Speaker 2: white men daring to ask questions. Yeah, and that's where

615
00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:24,760
Speaker 2: they were buried.

616
00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:26,880
Speaker 4: Yeah.

617
00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:30,640
Speaker 1: It was really sad, and it's you know, so like

618
00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:33,680
Speaker 1: it was told. She does such a great job at

619
00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:37,600
Speaker 1: writing from the perspective of a child, which happens a

620
00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:41,719
Speaker 1: couple of times throughout, and it was really sad when

621
00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:44,320
Speaker 1: you're reading from the three boys and you, as the reader,

622
00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:47,000
Speaker 1: know something bad happens to them.

623
00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:48,760
Speaker 4: You're not quite sure what it is yet.

624
00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:51,320
Speaker 3: You don't know why he disappeared, but.

625
00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:53,160
Speaker 1: But you're reading their kind of perspective, and when it's

626
00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:57,600
Speaker 1: just such an innocent like they started to fire like cooking,

627
00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:01,120
Speaker 1: but they don't want to in trouble, so they don't

628
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:04,040
Speaker 1: say anything, right, it's just so sad.

629
00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:05,880
Speaker 2: And had they known how that would end, they probably

630
00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:07,160
Speaker 2: would have rather told the truth.

631
00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:10,479
Speaker 3: Yeah, but they probably would have tried to still leave.

632
00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:13,440
Speaker 4: But but yeah, exactly, that's what they would have.

633
00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:15,040
Speaker 3: Gone through all of that so quickly.

634
00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:16,840
Speaker 2: And then there was a bit that I did leave

635
00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:19,400
Speaker 2: out that does haunt me, because this story will haunt me,

636
00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:21,280
Speaker 2: like I will have memories of this story for a while.

637
00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:24,960
Speaker 2: But the mom searching for her son, and at one

638
00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:27,560
Speaker 2: point that she did search in that area, she just

639
00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:31,440
Speaker 2: didn't know and they think the uh. They talked about

640
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:34,720
Speaker 2: how each one died slowly in that hole, and I

641
00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:38,400
Speaker 2: was like, that's unnecessary, dude, that was unnecessary.

642
00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:41,240
Speaker 3: I break their neck. Don't do this to me.

643
00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:44,680
Speaker 1: I love it the top. She there's a forward by

644
00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:46,800
Speaker 1: a friend of hers and it's like, she's such a

645
00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:49,000
Speaker 1: lovely woman and she's so happy.

646
00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:51,400
Speaker 4: So did I read her work? And I'm like, oh,

647
00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:53,360
Speaker 4: she's got a dark side.

648
00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:57,120
Speaker 2: I think all that she's like, she's so kind and

649
00:32:57,160 --> 00:33:03,200
Speaker 2: then but but yeah, so it is a compelling story

650
00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:05,280
Speaker 2: and again very haunting. It.

651
00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:09,400
Speaker 1: It freaked me out, like the just the the way

652
00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:12,440
Speaker 1: the imagery unfolds, of like feeling the water and it's

653
00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:16,560
Speaker 1: going up and rising and the dog is barking loudly.

654
00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:19,480
Speaker 2: The young man and Davy being like I can't, I can,

655
00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:22,560
Speaker 2: I can. My head is like almost like my neck

656
00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:25,520
Speaker 2: is in the water. I can't do this much longer,

657
00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:30,840
Speaker 2: like it was the whole thing. Yes, so there's that one,

658
00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:33,080
Speaker 2: and I say, you can find that as a novella somewhere.

659
00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:36,160
Speaker 2: M m. But you should definitely buy this. Oh, by

660
00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:38,320
Speaker 2: the way, I also checked it out to the library.

661
00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:43,000
Speaker 1: Oh and this story was a great a great, like

662
00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:45,640
Speaker 1: oh to librarians, because that library.

663
00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:51,400
Speaker 2: She's like, maybe it's Maybell, right, but yeah, so you

664
00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:53,640
Speaker 2: I found this at our local library, So I'm sure

665
00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:55,480
Speaker 2: you can find this if you want to go read

666
00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:59,440
Speaker 2: this you should, yes, And the next story we kind

667
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:01,720
Speaker 2: of would alluded to a few times. It's called Free

668
00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:08,360
Speaker 2: Jim's Mind and literally talks about how it's based in Delanaga, Georgia,

669
00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:10,880
Speaker 2: which you have probably hard us talk about because Annie

670
00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:14,960
Speaker 2: is from Delanica, Georgia. We meet Lottie along with her husband,

671
00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:17,239
Speaker 2: trying to escape, so this is during the times of

672
00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:20,120
Speaker 2: enslavement here in the US. She had been enslaved and

673
00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:22,279
Speaker 2: was pregnant and she knew she had to escape in

674
00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:25,479
Speaker 2: order to save her baby. Like the dude who owned

675
00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:29,279
Speaker 2: her essentially said I'm gonna kill your baby. She ran

676
00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:31,600
Speaker 2: to find her uncle, who had been freed and had

677
00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:35,360
Speaker 2: owned a mine. She had hoped he would help her escape,

678
00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:38,640
Speaker 2: like he tried to actually buy her previously. They refused,

679
00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:42,080
Speaker 2: but she knew that he her he wanted to help her,

680
00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:46,759
Speaker 2: or so she thought he had bought a powerful luck

681
00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:49,880
Speaker 2: pouch that may have helped him be freed, so it

682
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:53,560
Speaker 2: says Mojo powerful Mojo. Soon they found him, but he

683
00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:56,080
Speaker 2: was unhappy, saying he could not help her and that

684
00:34:56,160 --> 00:34:59,120
Speaker 2: she doomed herself. And William, which who is her husband

685
00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:02,520
Speaker 2: who is younger than him, and also I believe Native American,

686
00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:06,239
Speaker 2: but they had been ousted at the same time, so obviously,

687
00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:11,400
Speaker 2: but Jim did hide them in his minds after like

688
00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:13,920
Speaker 2: a whole back and forth of exchange about how they

689
00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:16,680
Speaker 2: were fools and they were not doing this ridiculous thing

690
00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:20,239
Speaker 2: and that his luck came with a cost, and like

691
00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:23,200
Speaker 2: it wasn't a good thing, like all these things, saying,

692
00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:25,920
Speaker 2: you know, you were fools. But he takes them down

693
00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:27,200
Speaker 2: to the mines. It's like you have to sleep in

694
00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:29,279
Speaker 2: here for a while, and that he would be back

695
00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:31,239
Speaker 2: for them the next day with a wagon and some

696
00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:34,680
Speaker 2: money and some food is in them on But in

697
00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:38,920
Speaker 2: this minds there are creatures, lots of different things, maybe coyotes,

698
00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:42,160
Speaker 2: but there's one big creature that William sees immediately, and

699
00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:45,439
Speaker 2: it is a giant frog like creature that has been

700
00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:51,120
Speaker 2: of like legacy to the Native Americans, Kadawa Lassie William

701
00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:53,160
Speaker 2: saying that he has to be a man, he has

702
00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:55,960
Speaker 2: to protect his family and that those who in the

703
00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:58,919
Speaker 2: story there's a warrior who kills it and conquers and

704
00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:02,799
Speaker 2: like helps his his women and families, And he says,

705
00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:05,640
Speaker 2: I've got to do this. So he tries to fight it,

706
00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:10,120
Speaker 2: but all of a sudden he's gone. He disappears. Lottie

707
00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:14,640
Speaker 2: filling alone, hoping that he will come back, counting counting

708
00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:16,520
Speaker 2: how long he can hold his breath and thinking that

709
00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:20,399
Speaker 2: he may come back, is also attacked by this well

710
00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:22,799
Speaker 2: Lossie and she fights it off, stabbing it with her

711
00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:26,080
Speaker 2: dull knife that William had given her previously, and she

712
00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:29,040
Speaker 2: just injures it and it goes away.

713
00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:32,399
Speaker 3: She just says theres and prays that he doesn't come back.

714
00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:34,680
Speaker 2: The well Lassie doesn't come back, also hoping that maybe

715
00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:38,719
Speaker 2: William will. But soon her uncle comes down to get her.

716
00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:42,840
Speaker 2: He never questioned where William was and took her to

717
00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:43,440
Speaker 2: the wagon.

718
00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:45,040
Speaker 3: Good story.

719
00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:48,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, He basically said, one of you is not going

720
00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:51,040
Speaker 1: to come out. That's how this luck thing is going

721
00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:54,280
Speaker 1: to play out for you, like good.

722
00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:57,520
Speaker 3: Luck so and this do rights.

723
00:36:57,600 --> 00:36:59,920
Speaker 2: The story was inspired by a trip to a golden

724
00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:03,200
Speaker 2: in Delanaga, Georgia, where I first heard that a black

725
00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:06,239
Speaker 2: man had owned a local gold mine. The mine was

726
00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:09,920
Speaker 2: called free Gem's Mind, and he was indeed named James

727
00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:13,440
Speaker 2: waclair Uh. And she said, during my research, I learned

728
00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:16,760
Speaker 2: that the little known Georgia gold Rush displays the Cherokee

729
00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:19,880
Speaker 2: people and set them on the Trail of Tears. I

730
00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:22,560
Speaker 2: will say we did learn about that, because Georgia has

731
00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:24,759
Speaker 2: infamy when it comes to the Trail of Tears and

732
00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:28,360
Speaker 2: the Cherokee Nation and Cherokee people. But Adie, you were saying,

733
00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:30,600
Speaker 2: you actually know and you've gone to this place, right,

734
00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:31,840
Speaker 2: I didn't even know this existed.

735
00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:39,400
Speaker 1: Yes, So Delanaga is it's like where the Gold Rush

736
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:42,560
Speaker 1: was centered in Georgia, right, And so we have a

737
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:45,080
Speaker 1: gold Rush museum that a lot of people in Georgia

738
00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:47,000
Speaker 1: ended up going to. A lot of students end up

739
00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:50,640
Speaker 1: going to. It's the center of our square, our town square.

740
00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:55,879
Speaker 1: And then we have you can visit some of the

741
00:37:56,160 --> 00:37:59,560
Speaker 1: gold mines. There's like one that's really popular, and we

742
00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:01,920
Speaker 1: also have a big event called gold Rush and it's

743
00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:05,120
Speaker 1: our biggest tourist event and you can like fake pan

744
00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:07,839
Speaker 1: for gold. But yes, I did know about this. I

745
00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:13,080
Speaker 1: think in middle school in Georgia studies that we.

746
00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:18,600
Speaker 4: Had a whole kind of here's what Delanaga is all about.

747
00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:23,080
Speaker 1: Here's the history of Delannaga specifically, we learned about we

748
00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:26,319
Speaker 1: learned about that. I told you I actually wasn't sure

749
00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:30,080
Speaker 1: if it's true, if it was true, just because you

750
00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:33,680
Speaker 1: know some of those stories in small towns. You're like,

751
00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:36,160
Speaker 1: I don't know how true this actually is.

752
00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:38,480
Speaker 4: So when I was reading this, I was like, oh,

753
00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:41,080
Speaker 4: oh right.

754
00:38:41,719 --> 00:38:44,920
Speaker 1: But yeah, the the like kind of weaving in of

755
00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:46,839
Speaker 1: that with the Trail of Tears, because we did learn

756
00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:51,200
Speaker 1: about that as well, and the Cherokee people. And also,

757
00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:53,160
Speaker 1: I have to say, there is a line about how

758
00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:56,359
Speaker 1: to pronouncedalanaga in there, and I felt really bad because

759
00:38:56,360 --> 00:38:58,160
Speaker 1: I actually did a whole paper on how to pronounce

760
00:38:58,239 --> 00:39:02,200
Speaker 1: dalanga and I can't remember. I did write about how

761
00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:06,799
Speaker 1: the Cherokee pronounced it, but I probably I probably messed

762
00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:07,120
Speaker 1: it up.

763
00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:10,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I did read that, like obviously reading it

764
00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:14,840
Speaker 2: versus hearing it. So Doue does read most of these tills,

765
00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:18,160
Speaker 2: I think, and she does pronounce it. And I was like, oh,

766
00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:21,200
Speaker 2: well that makes sense. I can't remember it either because

767
00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:26,800
Speaker 2: I'm so ingrained with delaniga. Yeah, the linga or something

768
00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:29,320
Speaker 2: like that. It was very like it starts with a

769
00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:33,600
Speaker 2: tea too, linga or something like that. Yeah, it's really

770
00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:39,520
Speaker 2: sad because a lot of the roots are gone because

771
00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:42,960
Speaker 2: of colonization. And yeah, I could understand why you wouldn't

772
00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:48,279
Speaker 2: believe it because it's still a red state, Like it's

773
00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:51,320
Speaker 2: still a red area, and it's very conservative and hasn't

774
00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:54,040
Speaker 2: always been so, so it would be hard to believe

775
00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:57,479
Speaker 2: that they would allow, even if they are afraid, black

776
00:39:57,520 --> 00:40:00,000
Speaker 2: person to own.

777
00:39:59,840 --> 00:40:00,800
Speaker 3: Some thing here.

778
00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:06,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, especially as valuable as a mine.

779
00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:07,360
Speaker 4: Yeah.

780
00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:10,319
Speaker 1: And I think a lot of people can connect to this,

781
00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:13,320
Speaker 1: especially if you're from the South or a red state.

782
00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:19,520
Speaker 1: But you know that story, like especially the Trail tears,

783
00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:22,279
Speaker 1: I can see it in my head when I was

784
00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:23,320
Speaker 1: reading this, and they were.

785
00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:24,319
Speaker 4: Like two paragraphs.

786
00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:29,000
Speaker 1: That story about Freedom's mind was one really and you know,

787
00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:34,759
Speaker 1: it was like very it was still centered on white

788
00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:38,120
Speaker 1: people because it was very like, yeah, this black person

789
00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:40,080
Speaker 1: had a mind, how nice we were?

790
00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:43,560
Speaker 2: Like because also remember we also grew up in and

791
00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:50,799
Speaker 2: still this honestly teaching enslavement as being states rights, so

792
00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:54,239
Speaker 2: teaching the Civil War being about states rights, teaching the

793
00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:57,640
Speaker 2: fact that the enslaved people wanted to be enslaved because

794
00:40:57,719 --> 00:41:01,319
Speaker 2: they were provided by for by their owners, Like that

795
00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:03,359
Speaker 2: was the things that we were taught. Not only that

796
00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:06,120
Speaker 2: that they sold themselves. It really wasn't white people, it

797
00:41:06,160 --> 00:41:08,760
Speaker 2: was their own people, right, Like all of these narratives

798
00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:12,960
Speaker 2: that are very false and very like white saviorism. So

799
00:41:13,040 --> 00:41:15,160
Speaker 2: for us to hear this or like, that's probably not true.

800
00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:17,080
Speaker 2: And also the trail of tears was literally like, yeah,

801
00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:19,440
Speaker 2: it was really sad, But they don't talk about the deaths,

802
00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:23,080
Speaker 2: the murders, the rapes, that like kidnapping, all of that.

803
00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:24,400
Speaker 3: They don't talk about the decimation.

804
00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:28,319
Speaker 2: They're like, they just sadly walked with food provided for

805
00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:30,799
Speaker 2: they re guarded by soldiers.

806
00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:32,880
Speaker 3: Nah.

807
00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:35,279
Speaker 2: No, so like all of these things that are what

808
00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:38,839
Speaker 2: we grew up with being told it really wasn't that inhumane.

809
00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:41,080
Speaker 2: People make it sound worse than it is, and I'm like, well,

810
00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:42,160
Speaker 2: owning people.

811
00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:43,239
Speaker 3: That sounds bad.

812
00:41:44,239 --> 00:41:47,439
Speaker 2: Importing people and then trading them off, it sounds pretty bad.

813
00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:50,919
Speaker 2: But they try to distance those bad guys, those bad

814
00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:51,839
Speaker 2: white people.

815
00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:53,680
Speaker 3: Versus what really happened.

816
00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:57,560
Speaker 2: And they're like, so when we talk about things like wow,

817
00:41:57,600 --> 00:42:00,160
Speaker 2: we don't truly believe, especially if we've been around long

818
00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:02,920
Speaker 2: enough to know that how bad history has been skewed

819
00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:08,080
Speaker 2: to make them look better than being white people. Yeah,

820
00:42:08,160 --> 00:42:12,520
Speaker 2: it's hard to believe. So I wonder I would. This

821
00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:14,759
Speaker 2: is why I'm surprised more than anything else, And I'm

822
00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:16,439
Speaker 2: sure this is also why I do put that as

823
00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:19,040
Speaker 2: he had to sacrifice so many other things in order

824
00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:19,600
Speaker 2: to have this.

825
00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:23,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, which I thought was a really interesting take.

826
00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:25,799
Speaker 1: I'll have to go back. I mean, I still visit

827
00:42:26,920 --> 00:42:28,680
Speaker 1: semi regularly and see if I can.

828
00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:31,600
Speaker 3: Does already actually own that property? Now?

829
00:42:33,280 --> 00:42:34,800
Speaker 4: I'm sure it's like a tourist.

830
00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:37,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, I just wonder I feels like it in someone's

831
00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:41,680
Speaker 2: family lineage, like is it true? Because in Jim's family heritage,

832
00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:44,160
Speaker 2: like wouldn't they still own it? And when can they

833
00:42:44,239 --> 00:42:47,120
Speaker 2: validate this history? That's the whole yea'll see what we

834
00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:48,600
Speaker 2: were saying. I knew this was gonna be a whole

835
00:42:48,600 --> 00:42:49,560
Speaker 2: conversation about this one.

836
00:42:49,960 --> 00:42:54,320
Speaker 1: Yes, I mean when I was like, oh, no, what's said?

837
00:42:55,040 --> 00:43:00,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was like, oh, there it is. Oh anyway, content.

838
00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:02,799
Speaker 4: I'll investigate, investigate.

839
00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:16,799
Speaker 2: So we're at the knowing is the next story that

840
00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:19,439
Speaker 2: we get to and we meet a young girl named

841
00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:22,960
Speaker 2: Nikki who talks about her having to constantly move with

842
00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:26,600
Speaker 2: her mother, her mama, and they end up in Miami

843
00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:29,399
Speaker 2: Beach where they met Rosa, who hired Mama to tell

844
00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:32,160
Speaker 2: fortunes and help out the shop. So essentially, her mom

845
00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:34,239
Speaker 2: has this gift in which is she can stare at

846
00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:37,279
Speaker 2: see someone's death and they know the time. She knows

847
00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:40,000
Speaker 2: exactly the date, and at times she knows what happens,

848
00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:45,680
Speaker 2: how how they die. And she meets Rosa, the mother

849
00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:50,240
Speaker 2: who she says, your aunt is about to die essentially

850
00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:52,439
Speaker 2: when she does, and I believe her aunt's the one

851
00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:55,520
Speaker 2: that is doing the fortune telling. At this point, she's like,

852
00:43:55,560 --> 00:44:00,239
Speaker 2: when she does, you should hire me. Yeah, yeah, like

853
00:44:00,480 --> 00:44:02,920
Speaker 2: we find this out. And then she comes, and Rosa

854
00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:07,319
Speaker 2: does come, who speaks mostly Spanish, but like understands enough

855
00:44:07,960 --> 00:44:11,680
Speaker 2: to hire Nicki's mama. So Nicki's mama has been through

856
00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:15,200
Speaker 2: so many things. She just yells out dates has gone through. Like,

857
00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:17,840
Speaker 2: I mean, if I knew everybody's death, I think I

858
00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:20,960
Speaker 2: would not be completely whole. Like I think there'd be

859
00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:24,480
Speaker 2: so much trauma just knowing people's deaths. So she obviously

860
00:44:24,520 --> 00:44:26,200
Speaker 2: goes through some things, to the point that at one

861
00:44:26,200 --> 00:44:29,720
Speaker 2: point Nikki gets removed by CPS and then she finally

862
00:44:29,719 --> 00:44:33,439
Speaker 2: gets her back. All these things, so they often move

863
00:44:33,640 --> 00:44:36,439
Speaker 2: when things happen, when when things fall apart, or when,

864
00:44:37,000 --> 00:44:39,560
Speaker 2: as Nicki says, Mama has one of her.

865
00:44:39,680 --> 00:44:41,839
Speaker 3: Bad days, they leave.

866
00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:45,720
Speaker 2: So they're there in Miami and they're doing pretty well

867
00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:49,360
Speaker 2: thus far as she works with Rosa and they're pretty

868
00:44:49,400 --> 00:44:50,160
Speaker 2: much like best friends.

869
00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:51,439
Speaker 3: They actually get along really well.

870
00:44:52,880 --> 00:44:54,480
Speaker 2: As I said, Mama could see people's death and she

871
00:44:54,560 --> 00:44:57,480
Speaker 2: often did so with or without being asked, so sometimes

872
00:44:57,520 --> 00:44:59,160
Speaker 2: she would just abruptly tell it.

873
00:44:59,200 --> 00:44:59,920
Speaker 3: Really be upsetting.

874
00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:03,719
Speaker 2: In a fight with Rosa, she tells her her death

875
00:45:03,760 --> 00:45:06,279
Speaker 2: even though Rosa has already said, don't do this, do

876
00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:07,040
Speaker 2: not tell me.

877
00:45:07,120 --> 00:45:10,160
Speaker 3: Stop. So because of all of that, it kind of

878
00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:12,600
Speaker 3: gets her fired. Though Nicki is.

879
00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:16,280
Speaker 2: Unhappy, she loves and supports her mama, especially knowing Rosa

880
00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:19,680
Speaker 2: was commenting about her parenting about the fact that, you know,

881
00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:23,280
Speaker 2: Nicki was not getting all these things and needed these things,

882
00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:27,320
Speaker 2: and so Mama was not happy. And in that fight,

883
00:45:27,560 --> 00:45:31,040
Speaker 2: that's what she used against hers her death date. As

884
00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:35,719
Speaker 2: see we see them resolved to leave. Nicki says, you're

885
00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:39,839
Speaker 2: taking care of me, Mama, better than anybody, surea, Mama said,

886
00:45:39,880 --> 00:45:42,959
Speaker 2: still looking at me. And then Nicki says, I got

887
00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:46,040
Speaker 2: to until May twelfth, two thousand and five, I said,

888
00:45:46,600 --> 00:45:49,720
Speaker 2: squeezing her hand again, and Mama just closed her eyes.

889
00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:54,640
Speaker 2: So essentially she got in a fight with Niki. Mama

890
00:45:54,680 --> 00:45:57,359
Speaker 2: did and she said and I'm gonna and you're gonna

891
00:45:57,360 --> 00:45:59,279
Speaker 2: be gone this date and told her her the date,

892
00:45:59,320 --> 00:46:01,359
Speaker 2: which was May twelve, two thousand and five.

893
00:46:01,960 --> 00:46:04,200
Speaker 4: Of her think she's gonna be fifteen.

894
00:46:03,960 --> 00:46:06,880
Speaker 2: She's gonna be young, Yeah, fifteen. So she was like,

895
00:46:08,239 --> 00:46:10,760
Speaker 2: and that's where Nikka just accepted it. I was like, yeah, okay,

896
00:46:10,960 --> 00:46:11,880
Speaker 2: I got till that point.

897
00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:14,840
Speaker 4: Yeah.

898
00:46:15,040 --> 00:46:15,440
Speaker 2: Yeah.

899
00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:20,759
Speaker 1: And it was a really interesting look at how that

900
00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:23,200
Speaker 1: knowledge affects some people, because some people saw it as like,

901
00:46:23,760 --> 00:46:25,399
Speaker 1: you know, I only have this much time, so it's

902
00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:28,480
Speaker 1: almost a newly some life, oddly enough, and then some

903
00:46:28,520 --> 00:46:31,880
Speaker 1: people that're just devastated even if they have a long

904
00:46:31,960 --> 00:46:33,400
Speaker 1: time left.

905
00:46:33,600 --> 00:46:33,719
Speaker 5: Uh.

906
00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:36,800
Speaker 1: And so here's what Deu said about it. This story

907
00:46:36,880 --> 00:46:39,640
Speaker 1: speaks to the fear of mortality that underlies much of

908
00:46:39,640 --> 00:46:43,680
Speaker 1: my work. Nicki's mature perspective on his own brief life

909
00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:44,480
Speaker 1: gives me strength.

910
00:46:44,560 --> 00:46:47,760
Speaker 4: Which, yes, we've been saying Nicki as her, but I've.

911
00:46:47,640 --> 00:46:49,839
Speaker 3: Been saying that I really thought of as her.

912
00:46:49,920 --> 00:46:51,480
Speaker 2: I realized just in my head the entire time, I

913
00:46:51,480 --> 00:46:53,959
Speaker 2: didn't really know that I knew a young boy talks

914
00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:54,279
Speaker 2: to them.

915
00:46:54,280 --> 00:46:56,320
Speaker 3: For some reason, I thought it was a young girl. Okay,

916
00:46:56,440 --> 00:46:56,920
Speaker 3: that was on me.

917
00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:00,840
Speaker 2: Nicky's tricky because it could be like, I know, Nikki's

918
00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:03,680
Speaker 2: usually with an eye at the end, so I guess

919
00:47:03,680 --> 00:47:05,200
Speaker 2: that could have been my clue.

920
00:47:05,239 --> 00:47:07,680
Speaker 1: But in my head it was, Well, some of these

921
00:47:07,800 --> 00:47:11,399
Speaker 1: it is because it's when it's told from a this case,

922
00:47:11,440 --> 00:47:14,520
Speaker 1: from the perspective of a child, it's not as easy

923
00:47:14,560 --> 00:47:15,120
Speaker 1: to pick up on.

924
00:47:15,640 --> 00:47:17,960
Speaker 3: So I get you anyway.

925
00:47:18,120 --> 00:47:20,800
Speaker 2: But yeah, so obviously I'm talking about death and trying

926
00:47:20,800 --> 00:47:23,719
Speaker 2: to deal with death, and like the mama talks about

927
00:47:23,719 --> 00:47:25,799
Speaker 2: how she predicted all of her family's death and even

928
00:47:25,840 --> 00:47:27,680
Speaker 2: when they did try to avoid it, they still died

929
00:47:28,040 --> 00:47:29,120
Speaker 2: maybe in a different way.

930
00:47:29,880 --> 00:47:32,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that kind of got her cut out of

931
00:47:32,600 --> 00:47:37,040
Speaker 1: her family, and her mom especially was not talk to her, yeah,

932
00:47:37,040 --> 00:47:39,400
Speaker 1: because she kind of blamed her for all of it.

933
00:47:39,560 --> 00:47:42,400
Speaker 1: I mean, she'd lost two children and her husband.

934
00:47:42,400 --> 00:47:44,800
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, she was going to live a long time,

935
00:47:45,080 --> 00:47:47,200
Speaker 2: and I'm happy about that. And then the other fact

936
00:47:47,360 --> 00:47:49,120
Speaker 2: is that you can die earlier than the date.

937
00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:56,360
Speaker 4: Someone yeah got a free date because.

938
00:47:55,640 --> 00:47:57,520
Speaker 3: He thought he was immortal till that point.

939
00:47:57,760 --> 00:47:58,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, and then he got killed.

940
00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:01,839
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, So all these things like on this level

941
00:48:01,880 --> 00:48:07,200
Speaker 2: of like these powers and these understandings. So oh, it

942
00:48:07,320 --> 00:48:08,760
Speaker 2: was one of those that I'm like, oh my god,

943
00:48:10,680 --> 00:48:12,680
Speaker 2: Oh my god, did she say what I think she said?

944
00:48:13,360 --> 00:48:15,920
Speaker 4: They did he just say?

945
00:48:15,920 --> 00:48:17,479
Speaker 3: Now it becames that perspective in my head.

946
00:48:18,960 --> 00:48:24,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it is like an xpin power.

947
00:48:24,360 --> 00:48:25,719
Speaker 4: I would be like, why did I have.

948
00:48:25,680 --> 00:48:28,520
Speaker 3: To get the most useless power? And I don't want it?

949
00:48:29,280 --> 00:48:32,120
Speaker 2: Yes, I'm just gonna be upset and never attached to

950
00:48:32,160 --> 00:48:32,680
Speaker 2: people ever.

951
00:48:33,080 --> 00:48:37,000
Speaker 1: Like, Yeah, I think that is a plot of a

952
00:48:37,040 --> 00:48:39,759
Speaker 1: lot of I mean, clearly we think about that a lot.

953
00:48:39,800 --> 00:48:40,680
Speaker 4: When are we gonna die?

954
00:48:40,960 --> 00:48:41,160
Speaker 2: Right?

955
00:48:41,600 --> 00:48:43,560
Speaker 1: But I know I think it's a plot of a

956
00:48:43,600 --> 00:48:46,799
Speaker 1: movie and a music video where somebody can see like

957
00:48:46,880 --> 00:48:47,640
Speaker 1: the time.

958
00:48:47,960 --> 00:48:49,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, it does not to get it as a movie.

959
00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:50,279
Speaker 3: I've seen that.

960
00:48:50,600 --> 00:48:55,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a lot of death in this one obviously.

961
00:48:55,960 --> 00:48:58,479
Speaker 2: Uh So we go on to the next hill, which

962
00:48:58,520 --> 00:49:02,400
Speaker 2: is like daughter, this one was a different one, Like

963
00:49:02,440 --> 00:49:04,880
Speaker 2: this one was like such a different genre that it

964
00:49:04,960 --> 00:49:05,520
Speaker 2: thrown me off.

965
00:49:05,560 --> 00:49:06,439
Speaker 3: So let's start.

966
00:49:06,920 --> 00:49:10,360
Speaker 2: This is a haunting tale of motherhood. We meet Denise

967
00:49:10,400 --> 00:49:13,560
Speaker 2: and Paige. Denise had gone through years of childhood trauma

968
00:49:13,840 --> 00:49:16,680
Speaker 2: but always had her friend Paige. As she got older,

969
00:49:16,719 --> 00:49:19,760
Speaker 2: Denise decided she wanted a perfect life that she couldn't

970
00:49:19,800 --> 00:49:22,360
Speaker 2: have before. I had a whole plan was able to

971
00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:24,920
Speaker 2: get money to be a part of the new copycat

972
00:49:25,040 --> 00:49:29,799
Speaker 2: babies program, so essentially being able to clone whatever in

973
00:49:29,880 --> 00:49:33,000
Speaker 2: order to have children. And this was cloning yourself, I

974
00:49:33,040 --> 00:49:35,840
Speaker 2: guess if you're the mother to have a child for

975
00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:40,440
Speaker 2: this child. Three months later it was banned, but Denise

976
00:49:41,080 --> 00:49:45,400
Speaker 2: she got her baby, and right under that ban. Many

977
00:49:45,560 --> 00:49:50,200
Speaker 2: call the creations soulless and unethical, so these were soulless babies,

978
00:49:50,239 --> 00:49:54,880
Speaker 2: and many people wanted this destroyed, this thing ideal destroyed,

979
00:49:55,719 --> 00:50:00,400
Speaker 2: and though Denise did try, the perfect life didn't work. Sean,

980
00:50:00,520 --> 00:50:05,000
Speaker 2: who answered an Internet ad post, had left her. They

981
00:50:05,080 --> 00:50:08,120
Speaker 2: had gotten married with this idea, not necessarily because they

982
00:50:08,160 --> 00:50:11,320
Speaker 2: liked each other, but was an arrangement, and the niece

983
00:50:11,880 --> 00:50:14,680
Speaker 2: and Nisi, who was just the name of her child,

984
00:50:14,920 --> 00:50:18,040
Speaker 2: are all alone. And Denise couldn't stand to be with

985
00:50:18,560 --> 00:50:20,600
Speaker 2: this child. She couldn't stand to see her, she couldn't

986
00:50:20,600 --> 00:50:23,760
Speaker 2: stand to be around her, and asked Paige, the friend,

987
00:50:23,800 --> 00:50:26,120
Speaker 2: to come and get her. Paige was also very much

988
00:50:26,160 --> 00:50:29,640
Speaker 2: against this as well, and actually very freaked out by

989
00:50:29,640 --> 00:50:32,759
Speaker 2: this child because this is an identical replacement of her

990
00:50:32,840 --> 00:50:36,279
Speaker 2: childhood friend who had gone through so much trauma so

991
00:50:36,360 --> 00:50:39,560
Speaker 2: all the things that she remembers about her childhood with

992
00:50:39,719 --> 00:50:43,120
Speaker 2: Paige and even with Denise, and even Denise talking about

993
00:50:43,160 --> 00:50:46,319
Speaker 2: how she had wished she was Paige's sister instead of

994
00:50:46,360 --> 00:50:49,120
Speaker 2: living the life that she had, so all these things,

995
00:50:49,200 --> 00:50:52,480
Speaker 2: and even to the point like when Denise was like,

996
00:50:52,520 --> 00:50:53,920
Speaker 2: you come and get her. I don't know what I'm

997
00:50:53,960 --> 00:50:56,080
Speaker 2: going to do to her. So she had made a

998
00:50:56,120 --> 00:51:01,680
Speaker 2: promise to their mother, yeah, to Page's yes, that she

999
00:51:01,760 --> 00:51:03,880
Speaker 2: would take care of that child because she I think

1000
00:51:03,920 --> 00:51:05,480
Speaker 2: Page's mother knew something.

1001
00:51:05,560 --> 00:51:07,000
Speaker 3: This was not going to go well.

1002
00:51:07,880 --> 00:51:10,839
Speaker 2: So she did follow that through and went to go

1003
00:51:10,880 --> 00:51:14,120
Speaker 2: pick up the child. The child was very upset and confused,

1004
00:51:14,200 --> 00:51:17,120
Speaker 2: and she was like, where's daddy, And the conversation was

1005
00:51:17,120 --> 00:51:20,440
Speaker 2: like he was. The child was so freaky that the

1006
00:51:20,600 --> 00:51:25,520
Speaker 2: father Sean would beat on her as well, and that

1007
00:51:25,600 --> 00:51:30,880
Speaker 2: she looked at this young replica and would see the

1008
00:51:30,960 --> 00:51:34,839
Speaker 2: haunted sadness and could understand why Denise could not look

1009
00:51:34,880 --> 00:51:38,480
Speaker 2: at her anymore because it was a reflection of her

1010
00:51:38,480 --> 00:51:41,600
Speaker 2: own sadness and to see it replicated was too much.

1011
00:51:41,960 --> 00:51:45,200
Speaker 2: And so she takes the child and that's the end.

1012
00:51:46,800 --> 00:51:49,040
Speaker 2: It was. I had to go back three times. I

1013
00:51:49,080 --> 00:51:52,960
Speaker 2: was like wait, what, who's Nissi and who's Denise? Because

1014
00:51:53,000 --> 00:51:55,440
Speaker 2: when Denise was younger, they called her Nisi. So they

1015
00:51:55,480 --> 00:51:57,800
Speaker 2: would go back and forth, and I was like, I'm confused.

1016
00:51:57,800 --> 00:52:00,760
Speaker 2: I don't know what's happening. Not realizing act, I was like, okay,

1017
00:52:01,000 --> 00:52:03,360
Speaker 2: they are talking about cloning, right, is this cloning?

1018
00:52:04,000 --> 00:52:05,680
Speaker 3: And in it At the end.

1019
00:52:06,400 --> 00:52:09,280
Speaker 2: Du says it was inspired by goat cloning and asking

1020
00:52:09,320 --> 00:52:10,680
Speaker 2: why would someone want.

1021
00:52:10,520 --> 00:52:13,879
Speaker 3: To clone themselves or herself? And I was like, yeah,

1022
00:52:13,880 --> 00:52:15,040
Speaker 3: why would you?

1023
00:52:15,200 --> 00:52:19,160
Speaker 4: Why? What'd you? I loved this one.

1024
00:52:19,600 --> 00:52:21,760
Speaker 2: This one freaked me out more than like the ideal

1025
00:52:22,480 --> 00:52:23,200
Speaker 2: freak me out.

1026
00:52:23,719 --> 00:52:24,120
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1027
00:52:25,000 --> 00:52:26,759
Speaker 1: It was tricky and it did not go I tell

1028
00:52:26,760 --> 00:52:29,120
Speaker 1: you that copycat baby thing came out of nowhere?

1029
00:52:30,040 --> 00:52:31,640
Speaker 3: Does this fit anywhere else in here?

1030
00:52:32,239 --> 00:52:38,479
Speaker 1: But yeah, the story, I was like, wait, whoa Okay, what.

1031
00:52:38,400 --> 00:52:39,200
Speaker 4: Are we talking about?

1032
00:52:41,280 --> 00:52:44,120
Speaker 1: But I was confused by the name for I was

1033
00:52:44,160 --> 00:52:47,719
Speaker 1: like wait what Anyway, By the end, it was so

1034
00:52:48,680 --> 00:52:54,360
Speaker 1: creepy because Paige was almost she was seeing like her

1035
00:52:54,520 --> 00:52:58,319
Speaker 1: childhood friend, Like she was not seeing this child as

1036
00:52:58,360 --> 00:53:02,200
Speaker 1: a separate person, and she was seeing like that is

1037
00:53:02,280 --> 00:53:09,600
Speaker 1: my childhood friend. And Denise had wanted to give herself

1038
00:53:09,880 --> 00:53:12,759
Speaker 1: this perfect life which of course is never gonna write,

1039
00:53:13,239 --> 00:53:14,120
Speaker 1: never going to happen.

1040
00:53:15,880 --> 00:53:17,839
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was good.

1041
00:53:17,960 --> 00:53:20,600
Speaker 1: I mean, it's an interesting thought experiment of what happens

1042
00:53:21,040 --> 00:53:24,800
Speaker 1: if you clone two people and they have two different lives.

1043
00:53:25,400 --> 00:53:26,960
Speaker 4: Right, I don't know.

1044
00:53:27,360 --> 00:53:27,719
Speaker 1: I don't know.

1045
00:53:28,440 --> 00:53:31,399
Speaker 5: I liked it though, it was like, even thinking about

1046
00:53:31,400 --> 00:53:33,800
Speaker 5: it is that creeps me? I was like, no, why,

1047
00:53:34,440 --> 00:53:36,040
Speaker 5: it gives you a lot of thubs, like trying to

1048
00:53:36,080 --> 00:53:38,640
Speaker 5: find like it does have that conversation like she does.

1049
00:53:38,760 --> 00:53:40,520
Speaker 5: I don't know if she meant to, but the lying

1050
00:53:40,520 --> 00:53:43,320
Speaker 5: of that perfect life and trying to fix your childhood

1051
00:53:43,440 --> 00:53:46,120
Speaker 5: by using that daughter like which often happens when I

1052
00:53:46,120 --> 00:53:48,480
Speaker 5: have my own kids. I'm going to do this better.

1053
00:53:49,280 --> 00:53:52,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And this is just like a much more

1054
00:53:52,880 --> 00:53:58,000
Speaker 1: scientific way. I also has interesting conversations about the soul

1055
00:53:58,480 --> 00:54:02,520
Speaker 1: and what is the soul? Which, yes, we as humans

1056
00:54:02,560 --> 00:54:05,400
Speaker 1: love to talk about that. But it was cool to

1057
00:54:05,440 --> 00:54:08,759
Speaker 1: see it play out in like the Supreme Court where

1058
00:54:08,800 --> 00:54:14,720
Speaker 1: they were debating, right, what is the soul? That's the question,

1059
00:54:15,000 --> 00:54:20,040
Speaker 1: I know, And that's when we got into someone that's mess. Okay,

1060
00:54:20,080 --> 00:54:25,319
Speaker 1: we're okay, Well, clearly we have a lot to say

1061
00:54:25,360 --> 00:54:27,359
Speaker 1: about a lot of these stories. So we're gonna put

1062
00:54:27,400 --> 00:54:32,399
Speaker 1: this one in too, but really go read this book

1063
00:54:32,440 --> 00:54:35,480
Speaker 1: if you have interest. If you can, it is so good.

1064
00:54:36,080 --> 00:54:38,200
Speaker 2: Take this break to go get this book and read

1065
00:54:38,239 --> 00:54:39,600
Speaker 2: it all and then come back with us for the

1066
00:54:39,640 --> 00:54:40,120
Speaker 2: second part.

1067
00:54:40,440 --> 00:54:42,600
Speaker 1: Yes, you know one day, I think that was like

1068
00:54:42,680 --> 00:54:45,479
Speaker 1: our original intent we should do a more interactive book club.

1069
00:54:46,360 --> 00:54:47,040
Speaker 2: Think that.

1070
00:54:47,360 --> 00:54:50,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's because we stopped doing social media. We're like, yeah,

1071
00:54:50,360 --> 00:54:51,640
Speaker 3: I can't because we were gonna.

1072
00:54:52,600 --> 00:54:55,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's true. But now you have a chance

1073
00:54:55,320 --> 00:55:00,560
Speaker 1: for the second half to go read up. But yes,

1074
00:55:00,640 --> 00:55:02,680
Speaker 1: if in the meantime, if you have thoughts about any

1075
00:55:02,719 --> 00:55:07,440
Speaker 1: of this or any other suggestions, you can email us

1076
00:55:07,600 --> 00:55:09,680
Speaker 1: at Hello at stuff one Never Told You dot com.

1077
00:55:10,160 --> 00:55:12,280
Speaker 1: You can find us on blue Sky at mom Stuff podcast,

1078
00:55:12,520 --> 00:55:15,279
Speaker 1: or on Instagram and TikTok at stuff I'll Never Told You,

1079
00:55:15,560 --> 00:55:17,040
Speaker 1: also on YouTube. We have a tea public store, and

1080
00:55:17,080 --> 00:55:18,440
Speaker 1: we have a book you can get wherever you get

1081
00:55:18,440 --> 00:55:20,840
Speaker 1: your books. Thanks as always to our super producer Beustine, are,

1082
00:55:20,880 --> 00:55:23,680
Speaker 1: executive producer My and our contributor Joey. Thank you and

1083
00:55:23,760 --> 00:55:25,600
Speaker 1: thanks to you for listening. Stuff Will Never Told You

1084
00:55:25,600 --> 00:55:27,239
Speaker 1: is production of iHeart Radio. For more podcasts on my

1085
00:55:27,280 --> 00:55:28,919
Speaker 1: Heart Radio, you can check out the heart radio app,

1086
00:55:28,920 --> 00:55:30,960
Speaker 1: Apple podcasts, or if you listening to your favorite shows,