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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Danny and Samantha and welcome to Steph.

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Speaker 1: I never told your protection of iHeart Radio. So to

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Speaker 1: start this one, Samantha, I have a couple of questions

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Speaker 1: for you. One. In your time online dating, do you

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Speaker 1: feel like you came across a lot of fake profiles

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Speaker 1: or any kind of romantic scams. I definitely came across

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Speaker 1: fake profiles, a few of them. Um, And because of

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Speaker 1: that and just in general of my mistrust. If they

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Speaker 1: were too good looking, I assumed it was fake and

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Speaker 1: moved on. If they didn't have a lot of information,

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Speaker 1: I assumed they were fake and moved on. Or or

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Speaker 1: there's some reasonly there trying to be sneaky, sneaky and

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Speaker 1: cheating and they don't want their partner to see them,

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Speaker 1: or I've seen a lot of that. They're being real

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Speaker 1: trickster I've had of If they're also not showing their face,

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Speaker 1: that was a big nose as well. So I assume

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Speaker 1: most of those were some type of lie, yeah or falsehood.

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Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, Yeah, that's interesting. We're going to come back

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Speaker 1: to that and talk about that in this episode. Also,

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Speaker 1: like when you imagine someone who is the target of

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Speaker 1: a romance scam. Who is the stereotypical victim in your mind? Well,

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Speaker 1: it goes back and forth, because sometimes I've definitely seen

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Speaker 1: the hopeless woman duped, so a woman who has left

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Speaker 1: a lot of money being like somehow taken advantage of.

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Speaker 1: So I've seen I've thought of that. But then also lately,

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Speaker 1: like the fishing, like a catfishing that I've seen, it

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Speaker 1: looks like it goes off to a lot of what

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Speaker 1: I would say, nerdy men, almost in cell level men.

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Speaker 1: I've seen that as well. So it's like overly beautiful

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Speaker 1: women and their men are a little more likely to

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Speaker 1: believe that, right, Yeah, that's interesting. So I feel like

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Speaker 1: because today we're talking about romance scams and it is

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Speaker 1: a popular topic of conversation right now, and I'm pretty

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Speaker 1: sure there's a couple of shows on Netflix that are

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Speaker 1: coming out about it specifically, And I think that our

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Speaker 1: understanding of who I don't even want to say the

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Speaker 1: stereotypical victim is because it's it's more like it can

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Speaker 1: happen to anybody. But I feel like for a long

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Speaker 1: time my understanding was it was older usually women who

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Speaker 1: their husband had died and they didn't understand the internet

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Speaker 1: very well. Maybe we're very trusting, but also I feel

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Speaker 1: like I've seen a lot of the almost like I

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Speaker 1: hate to say this, but like the show is kind

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Speaker 1: of painting as in this person and usually in my case,

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Speaker 1: woman is pathetic and she's so like her self esteem

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Speaker 1: is so low, and it's this guy reaching out to

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Speaker 1: her and and it's kind of played off as a

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Speaker 1: joke that she believed it right and tears those episodes

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Speaker 1: of that or usually that becomes like death somehow, or

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Speaker 1: they get like, yeah, I don't want like an a

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Speaker 1: sexual assault thing happens of some sort or like among

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Speaker 1: those I've seen that, So that's a little darker twist.

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Speaker 1: I've watched a lot of dark things apparently, you know,

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Speaker 1: when it comes to like elderly people and getting scammed,

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Speaker 1: I do see it being older women, but you leave

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Speaker 1: something there with religion or or real estate, not necessarily romance.

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Speaker 1: And we might have come back to that because that's

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Speaker 1: what I've seen a lot of questions and phone scams. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: oh yeah, I mean, there's so much, so much to

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Speaker 1: unpack here. I think it's interesting though that like as

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Speaker 1: this has become we've learned more about it. I can

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Speaker 1: think of several different versions I've seen of this playing

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Speaker 1: out in our popular media. So as I said, it

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Speaker 1: can't happen anybody. As we move into February, the month

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Speaker 1: of love or and what did you call it, Samantha

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Speaker 1: anti love? Were ant I Valentine? Essentially? Yea, if you

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Speaker 1: want to celebrate it. I've had some good ones. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: we're kind of a we do a darker take on

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Speaker 1: it over here, Yeah, because we wanted to take this

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Speaker 1: this look at not so happy aspect of love as

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Speaker 1: is our tradition, and that being romance scams. And yes,

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Speaker 1: as I said, they have been in the news a

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Speaker 1: lot lately, um, and there is a lot of information

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Speaker 1: out there about them about how to recognize them and

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Speaker 1: prevent them specifically, and I really admit they are a

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Speaker 1: bigger problem then I thought they were right, you know

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Speaker 1: what I've seen recently, however, I've seen more of like

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Speaker 1: when I say romance scams, maybe like just trickery in

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Speaker 1: my head. So it's a little different. Is when a

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Speaker 1: partner is trying to see their partner will cheat, and

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Speaker 1: it's typically women who vaging out to other women to

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Speaker 1: ask to try to start something with their man in

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Speaker 1: these general relationships, and I've seen a lot more of that.

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Speaker 1: Like I've seen a few where the men asked the men,

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Speaker 1: but it's typically women have been asking women. So I

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Speaker 1: don't know if this is like an actual thing or

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Speaker 1: they're just like I somehow got on it on the

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Speaker 1: social media side of it and saw a lot more.

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Speaker 1: I know there's a popular women who are investigators who

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Speaker 1: have done this, and typically there have been several moments

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Speaker 1: where that woman who has hired this other woman, that

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Speaker 1: woman gets mad at the person they hired works. That's

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Speaker 1: a whole different conversation. But that recently I did not

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Speaker 1: know about. That interesting because I know, like again going

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Speaker 1: back to stereotypes, and I think there were I'm not

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Speaker 1: sure what the numbers are now, but last time I

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Speaker 1: looked into this, men, like we talked about cyberstalking, are

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Speaker 1: much more likely to try to investigate that their woman

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Speaker 1: is assumed they're cheating. Right, I would like to revisit that.

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Speaker 1: That is interesting, okay, Right, And I have seen where

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Speaker 1: the men, if they've been rejected on a site, tries

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Speaker 1: to go back and find that woman as a different person,

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Speaker 1: so cat fishing them, but it's stalking them and trying

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Speaker 1: to get a second chance or try to find out

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Speaker 1: if they're dating other people, like why they wake up

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Speaker 1: with them or something like that. So it's been really

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Speaker 1: and that one's like a little more stalker ish. So

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Speaker 1: I've never experienced that to my knowledge. Um, yeah, no, definitely,

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Speaker 1: cause I'm very picky about who all engaged with online.

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Speaker 1: So I've never experienced that online. But I have experienced

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Speaker 1: I know, I've told the story million times when it

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Speaker 1: just sticks out with me of this guy at a

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Speaker 1: club back when I went to the club, I told him, like,

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Speaker 1: I flat out if we you know, we try so

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Speaker 1: many different strategies as women to reject man that won't

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Speaker 1: make them madden, and you know there's so much victim

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Speaker 1: blaming in it. So one time I did. I just

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Speaker 1: flat out told this guy, I know, because I didn't

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Speaker 1: want him to. I tried to do it in a

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Speaker 1: nice way, but I said, like, no, I'm not interested,

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Speaker 1: and he shouted in my face it's because I'm not

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Speaker 1: Brad Pitt, isn't It feels like he's the type of

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Speaker 1: guy who online is probably trying that. Now it's got

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Speaker 1: like a Brad Pitt esque I got that weird online

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Speaker 1: thing where a dude messaged me, but his message wasn't like,

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Speaker 1: wasn't necessarily a question. And this is the first communication

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Speaker 1: I've ever had from him, And he immediately says, I

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Speaker 1: would like to go out with you, but I know

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Speaker 1: women like you don't date light men like me, and

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Speaker 1: you only want the perfect white guys. So I don't

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Speaker 1: even know what I'm trying. That was this opener, and

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Speaker 1: I was like, Wow, well you seem angry, so I don't.

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Speaker 1: There's nothing about this is redeeming. I don't know what

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Speaker 1: you wanted. Yes, now I'm definitely ignoring you. Right. That

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Speaker 1: feels like like one of the worst examples I've ever

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Speaker 1: heard of somebody trying to prepare themselves for rejection but

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Speaker 1: hoping that you might be like, No, I would never

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Speaker 1: I'm not like those other girls. Is terrible. Is that

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Speaker 1: does that work? I get it? It does that. Like

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Speaker 1: I really wish I could have asked the dude, but

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Speaker 1: I just didn't even want to, like for you, because

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Speaker 1: why would you do this? What's self perspecting woman would

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Speaker 1: actually like respond to this? Right? Well, that's what is

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Speaker 1: that called. There's a whole joke about it. What we

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Speaker 1: do in the shadow then the TV show where it's

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Speaker 1: like they have a fun word for it, but it's

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Speaker 1: like nagging. So basically like go and go up to

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Speaker 1: this woman. Women love it when you go up and

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Speaker 1: here mean to them and she'll be so attracted. But

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Speaker 1: he was amazing himself, so I don't like, I don't

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Speaker 1: think it's negging necessarily because it's typically like, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I bet you're you're kind of cute, but you're not

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Speaker 1: execute as her like that level. But like he did

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Speaker 1: not do that. It just he was like, you're not

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Speaker 1: going to choose me because I'm not wide enough for you.

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Speaker 1: And I was like, what is happening? Yeah, yeah, that's

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Speaker 1: an interesting and terrible I want to say his strategy,

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Speaker 1: but I do. I feel like he thought like maybe

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Speaker 1: you would want to make him feel better and also

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Speaker 1: want to prove to him. No, I'm not saying it's

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Speaker 1: a good strategy. I'm just that's what he was doing. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there's so many things to the like online dating and

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Speaker 1: romance and everything that it's flipped as wild. This world

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Speaker 1: is wild. It is, it is, and it's unfortunate that

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Speaker 1: we have to look out for these things like romance

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Speaker 1: scams because I do want to put it in here.

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Speaker 1: As we've already discussed in this there are a lot

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Speaker 1: of jokes about romance scams, but they've left people heartbroken

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Speaker 1: and robbed, and when you think about it, it's it's

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Speaker 1: pretty mean. Like it's mean. And we've talked about grooming

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Speaker 1: on social media and past episodes and this that's highly

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Speaker 1: related to what we're talking about. It's also related to

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Speaker 1: what we talked about in cybers talking. So yeah, just

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Speaker 1: to put that out there that there are people who

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Speaker 1: have suffered from these things that we're talking about. Let's

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Speaker 1: start with a definition because we love that from the

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Speaker 1: FBI's website. Quote, Romance scams occur when a criminal adopts

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Speaker 1: a fake online identity to gain a victim's affection and trust.

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Speaker 1: The scammer then uses the illusion of a romantic or

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Speaker 1: close relationship to manipulate indoor still from the victim, and

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Speaker 1: the FBI goes on to specify that the people behind

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Speaker 1: romance scams are often experts, they're often con artist um,

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Speaker 1: and they frequently operate on dating apps and social media.

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Speaker 1: The con artist in question will work to endear themselves

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Speaker 1: to the target by building trust with conversation and interaction

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Speaker 1: with promises of meeting in person and perhaps marriage promises

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Speaker 1: that notably never come to fruition. UH. They utilize fake

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Speaker 1: dating and social media profiles UM and what is often

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Speaker 1: called cat fishing. Then comes to ask for money, often

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Speaker 1: to cover a surprise medical fee or a legal fee

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Speaker 1: UM that they promised to pay back but never do.

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Speaker 1: They often claim that they are on building projects outside

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Speaker 1: of the United States or whatever country of the target

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Speaker 1: is located in. Scammers frequently claimed to be in the

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Speaker 1: military to um or working on an oil rig, or

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Speaker 1: a doctor with an international organization. So basically they're like

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Speaker 1: traveling a lot not near you, and they often ask

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Speaker 1: for money to pay for a plane ticket or other

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Speaker 1: travel expenses, surgery or other medical expenses, custom fees, to

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Speaker 1: pay off gambling debts UM, or to pay for travel documents.

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Speaker 1: They usually ask the target to wire money or to

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Speaker 1: pay with a reload and or gift card. Because they

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Speaker 1: are anonymous and pretty much impossible to reverse. It's not

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Speaker 1: a one time thing either. They keep asking for more

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Speaker 1: until the scam is up are the money is gone

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Speaker 1: right again. I feel like these are so many, either

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Speaker 1: like criminal minds or all these little episodes that we see.

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Speaker 1: So romance scams are up in recent years, which is

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Speaker 1: really sad. In twenty the TC reported three hundred and

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Speaker 1: four million dollars in losses due to romance scams, a

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Speaker 1: fifty increase from twenty nineteen. The reported money loss to

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Speaker 1: these scams has increased by six times since. The FTC

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Speaker 1: also reported that while there were eleven thousand, two d

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Speaker 1: thirty five cases reported in twenty six, there were fifty

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Speaker 1: two thousand, five hundred and ninety three in twenty two. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's a big number. That is a huge number. And

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Speaker 1: part of this is yeah, so numbers from that Three

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Speaker 1: out of ten Americans have used a dating website UM,

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Speaker 1: including one out of five Americans between the ages of

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Speaker 1: fifty to sixty four. However, while the popular stereotype is

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Speaker 1: the one of older folks becoming victims to these types

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Speaker 1: of scams, anyone can be a target. I just want

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Speaker 1: to reiterate that anyone can be a target. UM. In fact,

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Speaker 1: a recent survey came out indicating that gen z is

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Speaker 1: at the highest risk of these types of scams. I

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Speaker 1: wonder why. Let's find out. So from CNBC quote the

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Speaker 1: number of individuals ages twenty or younger members of the

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Speaker 1: Generation Z or gen Z who has grown up on

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Speaker 1: smartphones and the internet, reporting they are victims of cyber

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Speaker 1: fraud has searched a hundred fifty six percent over the

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Speaker 1: last three years. And this is according to the study

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Speaker 1: from Social Catfish, an online identity verification service. Maybe we

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Speaker 1: need to get onto this type of services. Uh, just

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Speaker 1: can even get scammed. That compares to one growth during

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Speaker 1: the same time among people aged sixty or older. Uh,

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Speaker 1: the group with the next fast scam growth. So maybe

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Speaker 1: it is a social media and smartphones that's making that difference. However,

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Speaker 1: the overall financial toll is higher for older folks. Uh.

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Speaker 1: The average loss from a romantic scam for those over

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Speaker 1: seventy is nine thousand, seventy five dollars compared to the

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Speaker 1: twenty five hundred dollars across all age groups. Yeah, that's

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Speaker 1: pretty significant. In twin me ten romance scams accounting for

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Speaker 1: one of the top ten most costly scams for those

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Speaker 1: sixty and older. Yeah, and UM, we're going to talk

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Speaker 1: about this a bit later, but I do want to

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Speaker 1: also know a listener several years ago, so I hope

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Speaker 1: you're still listening to suggested this topic, and they said

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Speaker 1: how devastating it was to watch I believe their mother

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Speaker 1: just not believe that this wasn't a real person and

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Speaker 1: having those conversations because it's just so painful to tell

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Speaker 1: someone like, no, this isn't a real person cares about

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Speaker 1: you and they're just asking for money, And how devastating

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Speaker 1: it was for her as someone who knew a person

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Speaker 1: who's being affected by this. So it's not just like

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Speaker 1: one person. It often has ripple effects for people in

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Speaker 1: their in their support group, according to a detective interviewed

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Speaker 1: by the Irish Times, when it comes to romance scams,

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Speaker 1: the vast majority of victims are women. Many are separated

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Speaker 1: or widowed and in their late fifties or their sixties.

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Speaker 1: They might have family, but may be living alone. They

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Speaker 1: have maybe had some wine in the evening, so their

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Speaker 1: inhibitions are down. They are not, however, what I would

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Speaker 1: describe as vulnerable. They are naive for sure, if they

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Speaker 1: tend to be very well educated professionals and would hate

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Speaker 1: to be described as vulnerable more than these caught up

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Speaker 1: in romance scams are women. What happens with men is different.

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Speaker 1: Not long after contact is made, a man might get

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Speaker 1: a video from the woman he believes he is communicating with,

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Speaker 1: and in it she is performing a sex act, so

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Speaker 1: he sends something similar back and then it quickly becomes

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Speaker 1: the case of blackmail, which we talked about a little

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Speaker 1: bit in our cyber stalking episode. In the words of

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Speaker 1: Paul C. Dwire, chief executive of cyber Risk International, quote,

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Speaker 1: the romance scams are huge. They try and find a

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Speaker 1: lonely woman and get her to fall in love with

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Speaker 1: a handsome profile picture of a guy. It's not like

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Speaker 1: there is one bad actor with one victim. These guys

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Speaker 1: might have forty or fifty women on the go, and

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Speaker 1: they keep all the plate spinning, so it becomes extremely lucrative.

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Speaker 1: They have their cubicle, that's their job, and they go

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Speaker 1: in every day and we'll keep files and techniques as

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Speaker 1: they work away to get somebody. What they're selling is

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Speaker 1: love and hope, and you have these lonely people buying

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Speaker 1: it because they're falling for the dream. Oh it makes

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Speaker 1: me sad um And these scams often overlap with other

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Speaker 1: criminal activities. International criminal gangs often use dating apps to

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Speaker 1: launder illegally obtained funds through bank accounts of unsuspecting folks

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Speaker 1: um some who have even been arrested for it, like

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Speaker 1: they didn't realize their bank accounts were being used in

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Speaker 1: this way and they got arrested. Going back to a

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Speaker 1: recent episode on crypto currency, the FBI has recently raised

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Speaker 1: the flag about the rise of cryptocurrency scams, especially since

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Speaker 1: there's so much confusion around how crypto works and the

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Speaker 1: whole get rich quick elements that kind of surrounds crypto.

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Speaker 1: Just like romance scams, crypto scams have surged in recent years.

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Speaker 1: From October to March, the FTC received about six thousand,

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Speaker 1: eight hundred complaints compared to five hundred F and D

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Speaker 1: from the same period the year prior. Reported losses group

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Speaker 1: by ten times to eighty million dollars. Sometimes crypto scammers

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Speaker 1: are also romance scammers. According to the FBI, in the

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Speaker 1: first seven months, they received one thousand, eight hundred reports

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Speaker 1: of crypto focused romance scams, equaling upwards of one and

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Speaker 1: thirty three million dollars of losses. Some of these scammers

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Speaker 1: are going yeah after thirty after forty or fifty women

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Speaker 1: at the same time. This lot and many experts think

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Speaker 1: the pandemic exacerbated all of this, online dating was the

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Speaker 1: only acceptable dating and online interaction in general was how

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Speaker 1: we were interacting because the pandemic so and people were lonely.

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Speaker 1: A lot of people have been in our lonely during

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Speaker 1: this pandemic, right, the U S isn't the only country

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Speaker 1: seeing which arise from the Guardian quote. According to Action Fraud,

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Speaker 1: the UK's reporting center for fraud in cybercrime, eight thousand,

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Speaker 1: eight hundred sixty three cases were reported to the National

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Speaker 1: Fraud Intelligence Bureau or n f i B between November

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty in October one, up from six thousand sixty

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Speaker 1: eight the previous year, with the total losses for the

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Speaker 1: past year amounting to almost a ninety two million pounds.

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Speaker 1: Daters who started online relationships between Christmas and Valentine's Day

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Speaker 1: were the most susceptible, y'all, so be careful, with nine

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Speaker 1: one reports recorded in March one. But they also note

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Speaker 1: due to the shame and stigma around this issue, the

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Speaker 1: numbers are most likely low. Yeah, I'm thinking it's gonna

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Speaker 1: be very under reported because they don't want to talk

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Speaker 1: about how they had gotten scammed for being lonely. If

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Speaker 1: that's the case, which is not the case all the time.

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Speaker 1: It's just really got caught up with whoever you thought

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Speaker 1: would be your dream person. And you know, now that

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Speaker 1: I'm thinking about this, I want to know if this

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Speaker 1: is a real thing, listeners. I think I talked about

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Speaker 1: it in a recent episode, but there's a fan fixed

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Speaker 1: I was reading about hiring a fake someone to pretend

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Speaker 1: to be your significant partner during a holiday, specifically so

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Speaker 1: your family wouldn't ask you any questions. I mean, all

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Speaker 1: we talk about escorts because I know there are actual

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Speaker 1: escorts who can be a service and are legal because

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Speaker 1: it's not part of sex work, which we're not saying

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Speaker 1: is a bad thing anyway, but I know that that

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Speaker 1: has a big stipulation within the federal laws, especially like

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Speaker 1: if it's in magazines and such like. There's a lot

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Speaker 1: of things, but I think there's escort services and essentially

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Speaker 1: say we will escort will be a partner for you physically,

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Speaker 1: not necessarily sexually. I feel like those yeah, that might

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Speaker 1: be along those lines. Interesting. I believe in this fan

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Speaker 1: fiction it was a Craigslist aid, but women, well a

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Speaker 1: little bit is a little bit, A little bit more

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Speaker 1: like that's going to be a murderer, be careful. Well

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Speaker 1: this is I mean, I guess you could get caught

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Speaker 1: up in That would have been the dark ending of

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Speaker 1: that story, because in it, of course they actually do

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Speaker 1: fall up, but the dark end would have been it's

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Speaker 1: a scam all along, bt doves. I just saw that

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Speaker 1: Netflix has a Tinder. It's called Tinder, something I've already forgotten.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure our listeners are going to know, you know,

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Speaker 1: about a serial killer I think who met people through

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Speaker 1: online dating. Yeah, that's when I was researching this. That

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Speaker 1: popped up and I was like, well, wow, okay, okay, yes,

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Speaker 1: So back to some numbers. According to the Irish Times

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Speaker 1: quote in twenty nineteen, about four hundred thousand euros was

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Speaker 1: lost by love sick Irish people, with the country in

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Speaker 1: lockdown for much of and people isolated it more lonely

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Speaker 1: than before. That figure jumped to more than one million euros. Again,

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Speaker 1: that's only what was reported. It's become such an issue

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Speaker 1: that some money sending agencies like Western Union are now

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Speaker 1: looking for instances of fraud since they can be held liable.

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Speaker 1: I personally think they should have been doing that all

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Speaker 1: at all. But I know you've made this point already.

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Speaker 1: But I just want to drive it home. It's really cruel. Um,

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Speaker 1: this whole thing is really cruel. It's really manipulative. A

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Speaker 1: lot of times it weaponizes empathy. I read so many

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Speaker 1: accounts from people who had gone through this and lost

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Speaker 1: all of their money and felt just so terrible and

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Speaker 1: ashamed by it. And like one example was the scammer

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Speaker 1: had told people that their daughter had died and they

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Speaker 1: needed help with the funeral, or that they were being

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Speaker 1: held hostage by loan sharks and tortured, like really intense

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Speaker 1: emotionally manipulative. Thanks. And then after reporting over three thousand,

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Speaker 1: five hundred pounds of lost to a romantic scam, a

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Speaker 1: target who was interviewed named Anna said, I had spent

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Speaker 1: the year completely unstable, trapped in this abusive cycle. I'd

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Speaker 1: become obsessed with preventing his pain. It felt like losing

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Speaker 1: a husband that I loved with every inch of my

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Speaker 1: heart and soul. I was never going to get any

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Speaker 1: closure or say goodbye, you know, the whole being held

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Speaker 1: hostage and all that thing. That really like, there's so

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Speaker 1: many crime shows, like entertaining crime shows. I don't mean, like,

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00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:17,919
Speaker 1: you know, like sv level of crime shows that I

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Speaker 1: see that on. I wonder like, does it really happen?

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00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:24,919
Speaker 1: Has that really happened? Do we have cases on them? Oh,

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00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:28,840
Speaker 1: we're like, it's not a scam, it's actually a thing. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm sure it has. I would imagine it's very low number, right, well,

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Speaker 1: because I know we've definitely seen cases, and not too many,

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Speaker 1: but some cases where they have two families and they

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Speaker 1: have two different like the men pretend to be two

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Speaker 1: different men, and it's always men who have the families,

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Speaker 1: of course, and like, I've never seen any cases whereas

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Speaker 1: women leading double lives and that There's could be many

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Speaker 1: reasons to that, but I've seen that that's a whole

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00:22:55,960 --> 00:23:00,359
Speaker 1: different scam in itself. Yeah, having a second family. So

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Speaker 1: another woman said, I feel like I've been incredibly stupid,

400
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Speaker 1: but he was so convincing. I'm heartbroken and unstable to

401
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Speaker 1: trust my own judgment. My confidence has been shattered. I'm

402
00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:12,480
Speaker 1: still lonely, but I don't know how I'll ever be

403
00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:15,480
Speaker 1: able to trust anyone again. As much as I want

404
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Speaker 1: to forget it, I can't. I struggle to get out

405
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Speaker 1: of bed to go to work, and there's been many

406
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Speaker 1: times I just want to end my life. I can't

407
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Speaker 1: understand how this has happened to me, And I feel

408
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Speaker 1: like there was a couple of cases where cat fishing

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Speaker 1: has ended with someone dying by suicide. Yeah, yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 1: I just that's why I really thought, we really thought

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Speaker 1: it was important to put this in here, because I

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Speaker 1: do feel like it's the butt of a lot of

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Speaker 1: jokes and we kind of assume whoever fell for it

414
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Speaker 1: must not be that bright, but that's really just not

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Speaker 1: the case. And I my heart goes out to anybody

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Speaker 1: who's gone through this because I can't imagine believing like

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Speaker 1: just because it was a scam doesn't mean the emotions

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Speaker 1: weren't real, right, and you didn't feel that way, And

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Speaker 1: it's tragic to me that somebody, I mean everything, everything

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Speaker 1: is complex in nuance, but it's tragic, but like that

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00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:12,160
Speaker 1: is getting played on of that like willingness to love someone,

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00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:16,840
Speaker 1: which is already pretty scary, right exciting and scary as

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Speaker 1: being turned into this like painful thing where people feel

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Speaker 1: like they can't trust anybody again or they can't love again.

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Speaker 1: Um sad. When asked about this, trauma therapist Olivia James

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Speaker 1: said many of us have wounds around our age, appearance,

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00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:50,000
Speaker 1: and past relationships that make it susceptible to someone promising love.

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Speaker 1: It's tempting to ignore doubts and see what we want

429
00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:54,960
Speaker 1: to see. Sometimes people have an inkling, but the fear

430
00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:58,399
Speaker 1: of abandonment is too much. Romance fraud is just a

431
00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:01,720
Speaker 1: more extreme version of something lots of us have experienced.

432
00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:04,720
Speaker 1: For some people, there's an element of rescue fantasy too.

433
00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:07,240
Speaker 1: If they can help this person, they'll be able to

434
00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:11,719
Speaker 1: live out there happily. Ever after romance. James went on

435
00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:13,920
Speaker 1: to also say that this type of crime can lead

436
00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:17,800
Speaker 1: to PTSD, long term mental health conditions, and financial instability.

437
00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:21,960
Speaker 1: So people feel completely destabilized, they stop trusting themselves or

438
00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:24,959
Speaker 1: anyone else. As humans, we need connections with others, so

439
00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:27,480
Speaker 1: being betrayed by someone you thought was your soul mate

440
00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:31,080
Speaker 1: is incredibly hard. She stresses too, that the pressure to

441
00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:34,760
Speaker 1: find the one can make all of this worse. Right,

442
00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:37,119
Speaker 1: That's what I was thinking, Like, we've been taught so

443
00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:40,400
Speaker 1: often that we need a mate, that we need that

444
00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:44,280
Speaker 1: one other that complete us um and that especially for women,

445
00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:46,240
Speaker 1: that this we are not ever going to be whole

446
00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:49,879
Speaker 1: unless we are in a couple, in a family, and

447
00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:52,080
Speaker 1: that we are the head of the mother of the household.

448
00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:55,040
Speaker 1: So there's definitely a layer of social implications to this

449
00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:58,080
Speaker 1: as well, and the pressures for many of people and

450
00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:01,320
Speaker 1: trying to find that perfect romance and being told that

451
00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:05,000
Speaker 1: was our value to begin with. Yeah, yeah, um exactly.

452
00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:07,159
Speaker 1: And I think especially for women when it comes to

453
00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:10,000
Speaker 1: and I hate this is true, but we all have

454
00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:13,480
Speaker 1: a relative or somebody has told us when your biological

455
00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:17,840
Speaker 1: clock is ticking, and so it's like men don't have

456
00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:21,080
Speaker 1: the same pressure of like the age bearing down on

457
00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:23,080
Speaker 1: them that women do. Or we're like, oh I have

458
00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:26,119
Speaker 1: to buy this age or I'm no one whatever I

459
00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:28,800
Speaker 1: want to be with me. And that makes me mad too,

460
00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:31,760
Speaker 1: because I feel like it's weaponizing, like if a woman

461
00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:34,359
Speaker 1: in this case feels like, oh I might never find

462
00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:38,320
Speaker 1: anybody I'm older and someone is reaching out, like it's

463
00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:43,080
Speaker 1: it's playing on that vulnerability too. Of we was like,

464
00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:44,840
Speaker 1: I hate it. I hate it, But I think some

465
00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:47,359
Speaker 1: people find their worth in that like of worth and

466
00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:51,520
Speaker 1: people being interested in them, which again, yes, we're taught that,

467
00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:55,119
Speaker 1: but yeah, it just makes me. It makes me mad. Well,

468
00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:57,040
Speaker 1: I mean that's one of the good things. I don't know,

469
00:26:57,119 --> 00:26:59,479
Speaker 1: maybe it's the world I'm traveling in and so therefore

470
00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:01,520
Speaker 1: men are and called out. So that's what I'm seeing.

471
00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:04,280
Speaker 1: But as of late, there's been an upsurge from what

472
00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:07,280
Speaker 1: I've been viewing on men calling out women and saying

473
00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:09,280
Speaker 1: that hey, you need to know your worth, and your

474
00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:11,760
Speaker 1: worth goes down when you get older. You need to

475
00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:13,919
Speaker 1: know that you're not as valuable because you've had children,

476
00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:16,480
Speaker 1: or you're not as lovable because you've gained weight, or

477
00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:19,000
Speaker 1: like all these things. And I've seen that narrative being

478
00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:21,879
Speaker 1: used a lot, especially in the podcasting world, whereas all

479
00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:23,240
Speaker 1: men and I want to punch them in their disks

480
00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:26,320
Speaker 1: because they deserve it. But that's been a thing that's

481
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:28,520
Speaker 1: been coming out, and during this time of people talking

482
00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:31,080
Speaker 1: about trying to be more feminist, the way that they

483
00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:33,640
Speaker 1: rage back and say no, you need to be put

484
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:37,080
Speaker 1: back into your place is using age, using being single,

485
00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:40,160
Speaker 1: or using having children and fat shaming as a way

486
00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:42,440
Speaker 1: to weaponize against women to say that you're not a

487
00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:45,120
Speaker 1: value if you're not here, and so what you get

488
00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:48,720
Speaker 1: is what you deserve, whether it is actually what we deserve,

489
00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:50,879
Speaker 1: because we deserve a lot more than what they are saying.

490
00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:54,639
Speaker 1: Obviously that was a little bit cyclical, on that one, Yeah,

491
00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:57,400
Speaker 1: you should be so lucky to get my attention, right,

492
00:27:57,800 --> 00:27:59,840
Speaker 1: And that's that's this level of like women, if you

493
00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:02,600
Speaker 1: really want to be seen as the perfect queen, which

494
00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:04,879
Speaker 1: that that's been a push back to because women are

495
00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:07,600
Speaker 1: actually coming to the point of valuing themselves and so

496
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:12,200
Speaker 1: a lot of the misogynistic, patriarchal people who have been

497
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:15,240
Speaker 1: thriving in that life are piste and so this is

498
00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:17,320
Speaker 1: how they're pushing back because that's the only thing they

499
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:20,280
Speaker 1: know and has been used for so long that this

500
00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:21,840
Speaker 1: is what they've got in their back pocket. And I

501
00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:26,880
Speaker 1: feel like this absolutely pushes this narrative to having victims

502
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:28,959
Speaker 1: like this and having people who have gone through this,

503
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:32,719
Speaker 1: and also changes the narrative it's their fault because they

504
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:34,440
Speaker 1: weren't smart enough to see that they're not worth it.

505
00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:37,840
Speaker 1: And it's such a big pile of that has been

506
00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:39,960
Speaker 1: handed to us and continues to be handed to us,

507
00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:41,640
Speaker 1: and I want to punch people in the dicks, like

508
00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:45,640
Speaker 1: I said, um, but anyway, so it's important to note

509
00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:49,520
Speaker 1: also while most romance scamps these days are online, they

510
00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:53,200
Speaker 1: can and do happen in person and oftentimes on phones.

511
00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:55,960
Speaker 1: I've seen that like they are going to landlines and

512
00:28:56,080 --> 00:29:00,720
Speaker 1: using that as the way it's scamming as well. Yeah, um,

513
00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:03,880
Speaker 1: and we do a lot of the articles we found

514
00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:08,520
Speaker 1: researching this were about prevention and it was very That's

515
00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:10,800
Speaker 1: what kind of gave me at least a scope of

516
00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:13,160
Speaker 1: the problem of the size of it, because like every

517
00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:16,000
Speaker 1: state the United States had one like it, the FBI

518
00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:18,200
Speaker 1: has their main one, and then like every state as

519
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:21,200
Speaker 1: one and countries have them. Here's how to avoid it,

520
00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:23,120
Speaker 1: here's how to recognize that. But we did want to

521
00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:26,840
Speaker 1: share some of those with you. Right, So, if someone

522
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:29,760
Speaker 1: you've met online and need your bank account to deposit money,

523
00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:32,320
Speaker 1: that's a big red flag. Then there's a high chance

524
00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:36,080
Speaker 1: they're using it for nefarious activities. As a reminder, also,

525
00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:38,280
Speaker 1: I think there was a big conversation about like things

526
00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:41,800
Speaker 1: like Venmo and um any of those little cash as.

527
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:46,440
Speaker 1: Believe cash app maybe a little more safe than Vemo

528
00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:48,840
Speaker 1: and PayPal. I'm not for sure that there's this debate

529
00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:51,680
Speaker 1: about it um and who uses what, but I know

530
00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:54,240
Speaker 1: Vinmo has been criticized because that's linked to your bank

531
00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:56,479
Speaker 1: account and a lot of people have been using it

532
00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:58,840
Speaker 1: to get money from them and then like linking in

533
00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:02,160
Speaker 1: and thinking that this is for you know, my boo

534
00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:04,240
Speaker 1: needs this for gas. But there's there's a lot of

535
00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:07,200
Speaker 1: things to that too, right, yeah, I mean that's another

536
00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:09,800
Speaker 1: episode we've done in the past of like financial abuse,

537
00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:12,800
Speaker 1: and that's also a piece of this. But um, yeah,

538
00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:15,200
Speaker 1: the FBI has a few tips on how to avoid

539
00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:19,880
Speaker 1: becoming a victim to your romance scam, so be mindful

540
00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:22,320
Speaker 1: of what you post online. Scammers can take this information

541
00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:25,600
Speaker 1: to manipulate you privatize all your settings. I know this

542
00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:28,280
Speaker 1: isn't really related, but I just went through because I

543
00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:30,240
Speaker 1: saw I saw an article about how like your TV

544
00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:36,280
Speaker 1: is spying on you, and I went through and made so, well,

545
00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:40,160
Speaker 1: I have my Alexa here. They shut it on. Okay,

546
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:43,000
Speaker 1: they the newer versions have actually cameras on it, and

547
00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:44,680
Speaker 1: I had to turn that off because I was like,

548
00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:47,760
Speaker 1: what is this? As well as the sidewalk sharing and

549
00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:49,840
Speaker 1: apparently you can just people passing by can get on

550
00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:51,880
Speaker 1: it somehow, I'm like, why would I want those? And

551
00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:54,440
Speaker 1: that's a feature they were very proud of. Still confused

552
00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:58,640
Speaker 1: by why I would want that Samsung Watch that I

553
00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:01,000
Speaker 1: know that has a lot to like not necessarily a video,

554
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:03,680
Speaker 1: but like it can still link to my bank account

555
00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:05,200
Speaker 1: that got it's got. You're gonna put a card on

556
00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:07,280
Speaker 1: here if I wanted to pay with it? I know'm

557
00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:09,040
Speaker 1: that could be a link to it too, But yeah,

558
00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:14,520
Speaker 1: really weird? Yeahs who we are? Yeah, so try to

559
00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:17,920
Speaker 1: There's plenty of articles about like if you here's what

560
00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:19,520
Speaker 1: you need to do on your phone and your TV

561
00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:22,680
Speaker 1: like everything. So look that up, do your research. See

562
00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:25,880
Speaker 1: if the person in question has any as an online presence.

563
00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:29,920
Speaker 1: Search the picture, uh, the name, the bio, And I

564
00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:32,800
Speaker 1: know that feels kind of cyberstockery, but it's kind of

565
00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:34,600
Speaker 1: the unfortunate reality. And I think a lot of us

566
00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:38,400
Speaker 1: do that when we're online dating anyway, especially women, because

567
00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:41,240
Speaker 1: we've just been told yeah, you might be murdered. Remember,

568
00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:44,440
Speaker 1: images can be super imposed over faces and video calls,

569
00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:47,400
Speaker 1: so sometimes you will actually have a video called somebody

570
00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:51,160
Speaker 1: and it's not actually their face. Also, remember that many

571
00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:53,920
Speaker 1: scammers work as a team. As they introduce you to

572
00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:57,480
Speaker 1: their friends, the friends are in on it too, So

573
00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:01,160
Speaker 1: that's also unfortunate because I felt like, oh, here are

574
00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:04,240
Speaker 1: the friends. But yeah, yeah, that was all want to tell. Tell,

575
00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:05,920
Speaker 1: But to be fair, I'd also be like, okay, you

576
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:08,320
Speaker 1: could tell a lot by their friends and if they're shady,

577
00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:12,560
Speaker 1: hey are probably shady. So asking questions and be cautious.

578
00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:14,680
Speaker 1: That's always good. Don't rush into anything and don't let

579
00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:16,440
Speaker 1: yourself be rushed. And I do want to do a

580
00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:19,520
Speaker 1: future episode about love bombing because that's also one of

581
00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:21,520
Speaker 1: the big signs that we need to talk about. But like,

582
00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:24,360
Speaker 1: why why are you in this? Uh? Yes, going into

583
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:26,120
Speaker 1: so if something is too good to be true, it

584
00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:28,880
Speaker 1: probably is. If someone pressures you to leaving a dating

585
00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:31,520
Speaker 1: app or social media apps soon after contact in order

586
00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:35,560
Speaker 1: to communicate directly, be wary if they shore you with

587
00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:38,480
Speaker 1: I guess a lot of affection of emotion very quickly,

588
00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:40,400
Speaker 1: be wary. This is called love bombing. Like I said,

589
00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:42,440
Speaker 1: I do want to come back to it and the

590
00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:45,800
Speaker 1: basis of this because I was like what, because it's

591
00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:48,200
Speaker 1: used to be linked to a lot of abusive relationships

592
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:52,800
Speaker 1: in general. Yes, yes, absolutely. Also be wary if the

593
00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:55,440
Speaker 1: individual tries to isolate you from your support group, or

594
00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:58,280
Speaker 1: if they ask for inappropriate photos or financial information that

595
00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:01,520
Speaker 1: could be used to blackmail you. If promises of meeting

596
00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:05,480
Speaker 1: in person are repeatedly broken, ask why don't send money

597
00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:08,400
Speaker 1: to anyone You've only interacted with online, even if you

598
00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:12,520
Speaker 1: made first contact. Do not let your guard down if

599
00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:15,360
Speaker 1: they are overly flirtatious or complimentary, or if your picture

600
00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:20,720
Speaker 1: looks like that of a model. Ask questions if you

601
00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:23,160
Speaker 1: suspect you are in the target of a romance scam.

602
00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:26,240
Speaker 1: Experts have a few tips um stop communicating with a person.

603
00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:30,840
Speaker 1: Immediately talk to somebody you trust about your concerns. Do

604
00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:34,520
Speaker 1: a search with job title like U S Army scammer

605
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:36,840
Speaker 1: or oil rigs scammer to see if other people have

606
00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:40,040
Speaker 1: similar stories. Search the profile of this picture to google

607
00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:42,560
Speaker 1: is your friend of this? I will google everyone to

608
00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:44,680
Speaker 1: be as a social worker, I came close to be

609
00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:48,920
Speaker 1: like I did. Do a psychological evaluation on all my dates. Anyway,

610
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:51,560
Speaker 1: if you are sent money or a gift card, you

611
00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:53,840
Speaker 1: can report it. You can also report scams to the

612
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:56,480
Speaker 1: FTC here in the US, I do know with the

613
00:33:56,520 --> 00:33:59,800
Speaker 1: crypto and n f T. It's only become recently federal

614
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:03,760
Speaker 1: investigators have come involved because of the scamming. There was

615
00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:05,720
Speaker 1: a huge one we didn't talk about because it was

616
00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:09,600
Speaker 1: led by a dude who scammed a giant network of people,

617
00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:12,400
Speaker 1: got millions and then, like did a pseudonym and no

618
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:15,560
Speaker 1: one could catch them, really really funky um. And then

619
00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:18,600
Speaker 1: there are support groups and resources out there that you

620
00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:21,239
Speaker 1: can't get onto. And I'm betting there's a lot of

621
00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:25,400
Speaker 1: group of women who understand this and what has happened

622
00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:31,279
Speaker 1: to them. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, it's I know there's a

623
00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:34,560
Speaker 1: lot of isolating and shame around it, but there are

624
00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:36,680
Speaker 1: there are resources out there that are great, and there

625
00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:39,640
Speaker 1: are people who are open with their stories. And I

626
00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:42,000
Speaker 1: always feel, like we say that, it makes me sad

627
00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:44,400
Speaker 1: too to know that there are so many that have

628
00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:48,439
Speaker 1: experienced this, but I'm glad that there's support happening right

629
00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:52,200
Speaker 1: with people who have experienced it. And also, this is

630
00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:57,080
Speaker 1: kind of outside the scope of this episode. This whole

631
00:34:57,080 --> 00:35:01,359
Speaker 1: cycle is it's very complicated nuance and like who's doing

632
00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:04,200
Speaker 1: the scamming and why they are doing the scamming and

633
00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:08,600
Speaker 1: it's worth discussing that part of this piece as well.

634
00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:15,040
Speaker 1: But yeah, that's outside of this this episode for now.

635
00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:22,160
Speaker 1: But with that said, if you are happy Valentine, say

636
00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:29,680
Speaker 1: I don't know, and happy anti Valentine's Day everyone, um,

637
00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:35,560
Speaker 1: it stays safe online? Uh, And we love you were

638
00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:38,480
Speaker 1: It's true and we also love hearing from you, so

639
00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:40,799
Speaker 1: If you would like to contact us, you can. You

640
00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:42,480
Speaker 1: can email us at stuff and your mom Stuff at

641
00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:44,279
Speaker 1: I Hurt me dot com. You can find us on

642
00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:46,560
Speaker 1: Twitter at mom Stuff podcast or on Instagram at stuff

643
00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:48,399
Speaker 1: I Never Told You. Thanks. It's always to our super

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Speaker 1: producer Christina. So much love to you, Yes, and thanks

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Speaker 1: to you for listening Stuff I Never Told You. Protection

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Speaker 1: to I Heart Radio for more podcast in My Heart Radio, heardio, app,

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Speaker 1: Apple podcast, or wherever you usen to favorite shows. M