WEBVTT - From the Vault: The Ninja, Part 1 0:00:06.080 --> 0:00:09.200 Hello, and welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My 0:00:09.360 --> 0:00:12.680 name is Joe McCormick. Today we are bringing you an 0:00:12.680 --> 0:00:15.760 episode from the Vault, an older episode of the show. 0:00:16.360 --> 0:00:18.840 This is part one of the series that Rob and 0:00:18.880 --> 0:00:22.360 I did on The Ninja. We started this in July 0:00:22.440 --> 0:00:25.800 of last year, so this episode originally published July twenty fifth, 0:00:26.200 --> 0:00:33.200 twenty twenty four. We hope you enjoy. 0:00:32.080 --> 0:00:35.839 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio. 0:00:41.760 --> 0:00:44.360 Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name 0:00:44.400 --> 0:00:45.080 is Robert. 0:00:44.840 --> 0:00:49.400 Lamb and I am Joe McCormick. And it seems this week, Rob, 0:00:49.520 --> 0:00:52.120 you've got ninjas on the brain. You have ninjas on 0:00:52.240 --> 0:00:54.400 the brain, in the brain, coming out of the brain, 0:00:54.800 --> 0:00:57.000 going in and out in secret. What brought you to 0:00:57.040 --> 0:00:59.400 the topic of the Ninja for today's episode. 0:00:59.680 --> 0:01:02.360 Well, I mean, on one level, obviously, I've always been 0:01:02.400 --> 0:01:06.600 a ninja fan, a big, big fan of the pop 0:01:06.640 --> 0:01:10.080 cultural ninja as we'll get into, you know, just because 0:01:10.600 --> 0:01:14.200 by virtue of growing up, when I grew up in 0:01:14.240 --> 0:01:17.000 the various interests that I have. But then of course, 0:01:17.040 --> 0:01:19.240 also as I've mentioned the show before, my family and 0:01:19.280 --> 0:01:22.199 I recently went on a trip to Japan. We got 0:01:22.200 --> 0:01:26.560 to visit I believe, a couple of historic sites that 0:01:26.680 --> 0:01:31.399 have ties to the historic ninja, and so I thought, well, 0:01:31.400 --> 0:01:34.319 now's the time. Let's this is the ideal time to 0:01:34.440 --> 0:01:38.280 jump into the subject of the ninja, with the acknowledgment 0:01:38.640 --> 0:01:42.000 that it gets a little complicated in places. It's not 0:01:42.440 --> 0:01:45.240 as cut and dry as some people might expect it 0:01:45.280 --> 0:01:50.160 to be. But there's a fascinating weave of fiction and 0:01:50.640 --> 0:01:55.400 hidden history and also legends and myth totally. 0:01:55.800 --> 0:01:57.640 But I also hear what you're saying about coming of 0:01:57.680 --> 0:01:59.880 age in an era where there was just ninja f 0:02:00.760 --> 0:02:02.240 in like US pop culture. 0:02:02.960 --> 0:02:05.560 Yeah. Absolutely, And I think this would be a great 0:02:05.560 --> 0:02:08.680 place to start and maybe compare notes on sort of 0:02:08.680 --> 0:02:13.680 our our generational influences regarding the ninja. I'm a little 0:02:13.680 --> 0:02:16.960 older than you, so I might be exposed to some 0:02:17.080 --> 0:02:22.160 things earlier that you were not, like the Big Divider, 0:02:22.200 --> 0:02:25.799 being like teenage mutant ninja turtles. By the time they 0:02:25.840 --> 0:02:29.160 came around, I was very into them, but I at 0:02:29.200 --> 0:02:30.880 the time thought that I was too old to be 0:02:30.919 --> 0:02:33.880 into them. So I had this kind of like should 0:02:33.880 --> 0:02:37.560 I shouldn't I relationship with the teenage mutant ninja turtles 0:02:37.600 --> 0:02:39.400 and of course I should have, and I'm glad that 0:02:39.480 --> 0:02:41.680 I did to the extent I did. But for me, 0:02:42.560 --> 0:02:45.280 looking back, I would say, like the earliest exposures I 0:02:45.360 --> 0:02:49.919 had to ninja media in the US, I would say, certainly, 0:02:50.000 --> 0:02:52.600 you have the G I Joe ninja characters storm Shadow 0:02:52.639 --> 0:02:56.920 and Snake Eyes. One wore black and was you know, goodness, 0:02:56.919 --> 0:02:58.480 I can't remember which one was the good cart back. 0:02:58.520 --> 0:03:00.440 I think maybe the good guy war black and the 0:03:00.480 --> 0:03:07.440 bad guy wore white, which even at the time was 0:03:07.480 --> 0:03:11.640 like stuck stuck out as stuck out, as being a 0:03:11.639 --> 0:03:14.880 little unbelievable because even as a kid, you know that 0:03:15.120 --> 0:03:18.560 a ninja is supposed to move through the shadows. Why 0:03:18.680 --> 0:03:22.520 is this ninja wearing all white? It seems like he's 0:03:22.560 --> 0:03:26.080 made some style choices that may backfire on him later on. 0:03:26.639 --> 0:03:29.040 I was just looking up to see if Snake Eyes 0:03:29.200 --> 0:03:31.320 was one of the G I. Joe action figures I had, 0:03:31.400 --> 0:03:32.280 and I think it was. 0:03:32.919 --> 0:03:35.880 Yeah. I definitely had one or both of these guys, 0:03:35.880 --> 0:03:38.000 and they would go on all sorts of you know, 0:03:38.120 --> 0:03:41.800 ninja related adventures with the other action figures. Inevitably, a 0:03:41.800 --> 0:03:45.800 small screwdriver would become involved, and GIA Joe Man would be. 0:03:46.240 --> 0:03:50.400 Dismembered, swapping heads and stuff. Yeah, yeah, well I think 0:03:50.440 --> 0:03:53.320 I had some of the same main obviously teenage mean 0:03:53.440 --> 0:03:57.160 ninja turtles. I fortunately, I think when I first came 0:03:57.200 --> 0:03:59.720 to them, did not have to deal with the internal 0:03:59.800 --> 0:04:02.320 term oil of thinking I was too old for them. 0:04:02.400 --> 0:04:04.480 That does that sounds rough. 0:04:05.400 --> 0:04:08.640 But I don't know rough is the right way to 0:04:08.720 --> 0:04:10.880 describe it. But you know, there is it is that 0:04:10.880 --> 0:04:14.720 that conundrum if the peer pressure is there to make 0:04:14.720 --> 0:04:16.120 you feel like you need to get in a hurry 0:04:16.120 --> 0:04:19.359 to grow up, but you really are not ready to 0:04:19.400 --> 0:04:22.520 put aside things like ninja turtles. You know, at the 0:04:22.560 --> 0:04:25.560 time it may feel like a conundrum, but you know, 0:04:25.880 --> 0:04:27.000 ninja turtles are awesome. 0:04:27.440 --> 0:04:29.520 Yes, But there was also I know what you're saying, 0:04:29.560 --> 0:04:34.320 in that it was not just a craze in say, 0:04:34.360 --> 0:04:37.840 adult focused media in the US in the nineteen eighties, 0:04:37.880 --> 0:04:40.159 though there was that, and we can talk about some examples, 0:04:40.760 --> 0:04:44.120 but there was a very kid friendly version of the 0:04:44.440 --> 0:04:47.159 ninja archetype that showed up in a lot of kid 0:04:47.200 --> 0:04:50.839 focused movies, like, for example, the Three Ninjas series. 0:04:51.600 --> 0:04:54.039 I don't think I ever saw any of these, but 0:04:54.080 --> 0:04:57.200 these were like kid ninjas. This was maybe this was 0:04:57.600 --> 0:04:59.560 Power Ranger inspired to a certain extent. 0:05:00.120 --> 0:05:02.560 Possibly, I think I only ever saw the first of 0:05:02.600 --> 0:05:04.839 these movies, never made it to Three Ninjas High Noon 0:05:04.880 --> 0:05:09.160 at Mega Mountain, but I don't remember that much about it. 0:05:09.160 --> 0:05:11.880 I think there are three brothers and there kids who 0:05:11.880 --> 0:05:14.440 are learning the ways of the ninja, and some like 0:05:14.839 --> 0:05:17.680 robbers come into their house like Home Alone style or something, 0:05:17.720 --> 0:05:20.640 and they use ninja ninja techniques on them. 0:05:20.839 --> 0:05:25.640 What could be all bad if Victor Wong, isn't it right? Yeah, 0:05:25.880 --> 0:05:29.159 looking back on ninja movies that I watched, I also 0:05:29.200 --> 0:05:32.359 think a major early influence was that I must have 0:05:32.400 --> 0:05:35.880 seen this in my uncle's house. There were sometimes movies 0:05:35.920 --> 0:05:39.040 playing like RoboCop that I ended up watching way too early, 0:05:39.440 --> 0:05:43.680 and I do specifically remember watching at least a big 0:05:43.800 --> 0:05:48.200 chunk of the nineteen eighty one Manaham Golan directed ninja 0:05:48.240 --> 0:05:52.000 movie that starred Franco Niro, I believe as a ninja 0:05:52.680 --> 0:05:57.200 titled Enter the Ninja, and I remember it like horrifying 0:05:57.240 --> 0:05:59.680 and enthralling me to varying degrees because you had some, 0:06:00.200 --> 0:06:03.080 you know, a fair amount of like Ninja mayhem going on, 0:06:03.360 --> 0:06:06.360 and then also some rather grotesque moments that I probably 0:06:06.360 --> 0:06:08.040 shouldn't have seen it at early age. 0:06:08.120 --> 0:06:10.640 I think that's like a hyper violent movie, isn't it. 0:06:10.920 --> 0:06:13.280 Yeah, yeah, I remember it being hyper violent, But I 0:06:13.320 --> 0:06:15.920 also have not rewatched it since I was a kid, 0:06:15.960 --> 0:06:18.720 so I don't know what was actually violent and what 0:06:18.839 --> 0:06:22.520 was maybe just ridiculous and a little like unbelievably gory, 0:06:22.640 --> 0:06:26.480 or if it like holds up as an actual gore fest. Oh. 0:06:26.600 --> 0:06:30.400 Actually, as far as cartoonified movie Ninjas go, I recently 0:06:31.040 --> 0:06:32.680 before I knew you were gonna want to talk about 0:06:32.720 --> 0:06:35.440 this on the show, just like last week with my 0:06:35.480 --> 0:06:39.720 friend Ben, I watched a movie called Ninja three The Domination, 0:06:40.120 --> 0:06:42.520 which is a sequel to Enter the Ninja's. 0:06:42.279 --> 0:06:45.159 Right, this is like the third one in that the 0:06:45.200 --> 0:06:47.720 Cannon Films Ninja series. 0:06:47.400 --> 0:06:50.080 Right, that's right. So this entry is about an La 0:06:50.160 --> 0:06:54.200 aerobics instructor who gets possessed by the ghost of a 0:06:54.279 --> 0:06:58.279 Ninja hit man who wants revenge against the police who 0:06:58.279 --> 0:07:01.960 put a stop to his Ninja rampage on a golf course, 0:07:01.960 --> 0:07:04.359 which took place on a golf course in which he 0:07:04.480 --> 0:07:07.000 like single handedly destroys a helicopter and a bunch of 0:07:07.040 --> 0:07:11.360 other stuff. And then the aerobics instructor is possessed by 0:07:11.400 --> 0:07:13.640 the ghost of the evil Ninja and then falls in 0:07:13.680 --> 0:07:17.120 love with one of the cops on the Ninja Spirits 0:07:17.160 --> 0:07:19.640 Naughty List, so uh oh, and then she has to 0:07:19.640 --> 0:07:22.040 get the ghost purged out of her body by a 0:07:22.080 --> 0:07:25.640 mystical priest or actually I think maybe that the attempt 0:07:25.640 --> 0:07:28.160 to do that fails. But it's sort of a cross between. 0:07:28.400 --> 0:07:30.400 You know, it's a sequel to Enter the Ninja, so 0:07:30.400 --> 0:07:34.400 it's got that kind of sleazy nineteen eighties La van 0:07:34.440 --> 0:07:37.760 Halen guitar lick ninja movie feeling, but then it's also 0:07:37.840 --> 0:07:40.840 got elements of The Exorcist, and then it's also a 0:07:40.880 --> 0:07:44.800 cop movie and also just aerobics, you know, dance aerobics 0:07:44.800 --> 0:07:45.600 all over the place. 0:07:45.880 --> 0:07:48.120 I am on board for all of that. That sounds amazing. 0:07:48.120 --> 0:07:50.200 We might have to consider that for Weird House, in 0:07:50.240 --> 0:07:53.679 part because on Weird House Cinema we have talked about 0:07:53.680 --> 0:07:57.680 the movie blood Beat in the past, which has a 0:07:57.840 --> 0:08:00.760 ghost samurai. So it seems fitting we should have a 0:08:00.800 --> 0:08:04.120 film at some point that has a ghost ninja. 0:08:03.760 --> 0:08:05.560 OF's ghost ninja possession. 0:08:07.200 --> 0:08:11.920 Now, obviously there are tons of additional Western ninja properties 0:08:11.920 --> 0:08:14.600 we could side here. There's so much kid stuff. Certainly 0:08:14.720 --> 0:08:18.600 video games are big, some being imports, like I do 0:08:18.680 --> 0:08:22.200 remember the Shanobi Arcade game, though I don't know how much. 0:08:22.440 --> 0:08:24.880 I don't know how how strong the ninja vibes are 0:08:24.920 --> 0:08:27.200 in that one. But then eventually you get things like 0:08:27.240 --> 0:08:31.480 Mortal Kombat, which has you know, some version of Ninja's 0:08:31.480 --> 0:08:34.280 in them, often of course with all sorts of crazy 0:08:34.320 --> 0:08:37.439 colors that again don't make sense if you're if you're 0:08:37.440 --> 0:08:39.840 engaging with the idea of ninja as a stealth operative. 0:08:39.880 --> 0:08:42.400 But if you're engaging within the idea of a ninja 0:08:42.400 --> 0:08:45.400 as a user of magic, then as we'll get into, 0:08:45.440 --> 0:08:49.640 then I guess Mortal Kombat isn't too unbelievable. And then 0:08:50.240 --> 0:08:53.520 during junior high, probably like early junior high, I ended 0:08:53.600 --> 0:08:56.439 up picking up Showgun and reading it, and there was 0:08:56.480 --> 0:08:58.760 a lot I didn't understand at the time. But then 0:08:58.760 --> 0:09:01.200 there's like a lot of just you know, ideas about 0:09:01.280 --> 0:09:05.160 Japanese history in Japanese culture that are loaded in that volume. 0:09:05.440 --> 0:09:09.480 And it does contain a very memorable section that involves 0:09:09.559 --> 0:09:13.400 the Shinobi, the ninja. So we'll come back to that, 0:09:13.559 --> 0:09:17.360 because as it turns out, the novel Showgun has a 0:09:17.520 --> 0:09:20.800 very important influence on the idea and the popularity of 0:09:20.840 --> 0:09:22.680 the ninja outside Japan. 0:09:23.240 --> 0:09:25.800 Well, regarding the idea of the ninja outside of Japan 0:09:25.880 --> 0:09:28.200 and the word ninja as it enters sort of the 0:09:28.240 --> 0:09:32.760 English lexicon, I came across a really interesting fact in 0:09:32.840 --> 0:09:34.360 a book that I'm going to reference a bunch of 0:09:34.440 --> 0:09:36.480 times in this series. It's been one of my main 0:09:36.520 --> 0:09:40.760 sources here by a British historian named Stephen Turnbull, called 0:09:41.000 --> 0:09:43.760 Ninja Unmasking the Myth. This is one of the best 0:09:43.800 --> 0:09:47.800 looking historical books and investigating the history of the concept 0:09:47.920 --> 0:09:52.320 of the ninja in the English language. And what Turnbull 0:09:52.360 --> 0:09:55.880 says that really shocked me is that the word ninja 0:09:56.280 --> 0:10:00.320 with its current romanized spelling did not appear in any 0:10:00.440 --> 0:10:05.240 Japanese English dictionary until the year nineteen seventy four, and 0:10:05.320 --> 0:10:08.040 there were plenty of Japanese English dictionaries before this, going 0:10:08.080 --> 0:10:12.800 back to the nineteenth century. Before the mid twentieth century, 0:10:13.320 --> 0:10:17.280 the favored Japanese pronunciation for the same concept the same 0:10:17.640 --> 0:10:22.720 kanji idiographs was shinobi mono or shinobi no mono. But 0:10:22.800 --> 0:10:27.000 there's an alternate pronunciation of the same idiographs nin ninsha 0:10:27.080 --> 0:10:30.880 or ninja, which became the dominant way of expressing the 0:10:30.880 --> 0:10:35.480 idea out loud in English in English contexts, at least, 0:10:36.120 --> 0:10:38.240 I guess beginning in the somewhere in the mid twentieth 0:10:38.240 --> 0:10:41.400 century or the nineteen seventies or so, but I don't know. 0:10:41.480 --> 0:10:44.360 It's just surprisingly late to me. I've read in a 0:10:44.360 --> 0:10:49.040 few sources that consciousness of the idea of the shinobi 0:10:49.120 --> 0:10:52.600 or ninja in English speaking cultures traces in large part 0:10:53.080 --> 0:10:56.760 to the nineteen sixty seven James Bond movie You Only 0:10:56.800 --> 0:11:01.000 Live Twice, which is pretty fun, does have great ninja action, 0:11:01.080 --> 0:11:05.680 and it is also wildly racially and culturally problematic, but 0:11:05.760 --> 0:11:09.000 apparently was a big sort of funnel of the idea 0:11:09.120 --> 0:11:12.520 of the ninja or shanobi into the international market. 0:11:13.040 --> 0:11:15.720 Yeah, You Only Live Twice definitely a Bond film I 0:11:15.760 --> 0:11:18.360 saw as a kid, and I was surprised to learn 0:11:18.400 --> 0:11:22.760 of its historical importance to this topic. It's not a 0:11:22.760 --> 0:11:25.959 film that has ever stuck in my mind as being like, oh, 0:11:26.040 --> 0:11:30.080 this this is important, this is bringing cultures together, anything 0:11:30.200 --> 0:11:30.560 like that. 0:11:30.800 --> 0:11:33.520 Oh, but in some ways it kind of is. I mean, like, 0:11:34.000 --> 0:11:36.240 you know, you can there's a lot to criticize there 0:11:36.280 --> 0:11:39.160 but also there are some great scenes of like the 0:11:39.480 --> 0:11:42.920 ninja training scene where they're like out there practicing all 0:11:42.960 --> 0:11:45.800 their skills and techniques on the target dummies. It's great. 0:11:46.200 --> 0:11:49.559 So one of my main sources for this is an 0:11:49.559 --> 0:11:52.680 excellent and well sided book titled Ninja Attack True Tales 0:11:52.679 --> 0:11:57.079 of Assassin, Samurai and Outlaws Outlaws by Heroko Yoda and 0:11:57.200 --> 0:12:00.520 Matt Alt. Matt altype referenced on the show before for 0:12:00.720 --> 0:12:04.080 some of his other writings about Japanese culture in Japanese 0:12:04.080 --> 0:12:07.040 Popular Culture, and in this book they point out as 0:12:07.040 --> 0:12:10.559 well that You Only Live Twice was the first ninja 0:12:10.679 --> 0:12:14.800 screen appearance in international cinema. They write that while You 0:12:14.880 --> 0:12:18.640 Only Live Twice is the first international film concerning ninja, 0:12:18.679 --> 0:12:25.040 it was directly influenced by the nineteen sixty five film Shinobio, 0:12:25.280 --> 0:12:28.320 which was in turn inspired by the success of the 0:12:28.400 --> 0:12:32.800 various ninja short stories of Futaro Yamada, who lived nineteen 0:12:32.800 --> 0:12:34.680 twenty two through two thousand and one. This is a 0:12:34.679 --> 0:12:38.600 writer who is discovered by Atogawa Rampo, who we've talked 0:12:38.600 --> 0:12:42.679 about in Weird House Cinema because his writings have been 0:12:42.720 --> 0:12:44.679 adapted to the screen numerous times. 0:12:44.880 --> 0:12:47.800 So how did ninjas end up in James Bond. 0:12:48.400 --> 0:12:52.400 Well, it involves the screenwriter, who was, of course Roald Dahl, 0:12:53.000 --> 0:12:56.320 who lived nineteen sixteen through nineteen ninety. You know, we 0:12:56.400 --> 0:13:00.120 often associate with Willie Wonk in The Chocolate Factory and 0:13:00.200 --> 0:13:04.440 various other works, but he was a screenwriter on You 0:13:04.520 --> 0:13:08.440 Only Live Twice and apparently went on a research trip 0:13:08.520 --> 0:13:13.040 to Japan to prepare for this. And while in Japan 0:13:13.240 --> 0:13:16.079 he watched the movie in question, that nineteen sixty five 0:13:16.160 --> 0:13:20.080 ninja film, and realized, well, this is what the screenplay needs, 0:13:20.320 --> 0:13:25.040 we need ninja and ninja were added. Good choice, Yeah, yeah, 0:13:25.120 --> 0:13:28.320 and again you know, popular, big budget film that is 0:13:28.360 --> 0:13:31.920 exactly the kind of thing that will propel a new 0:13:32.000 --> 0:13:38.400 concept into the public mindset. Now, this book gets into 0:13:39.200 --> 0:13:43.360 the overall sort of tangled web of pop culture ninjas 0:13:43.840 --> 0:13:46.880 and in and out of Japan, going, you know, all 0:13:46.920 --> 0:13:49.000 the way back to things like a seventeen seventy eight 0:13:49.040 --> 0:13:52.920 kabuki play that involves ninja. And they actually have a 0:13:53.040 --> 0:13:57.320 lovely flow chart that includes everything from Ninja scroll to 0:13:57.440 --> 0:14:00.520 kill Bill. I'll come back to or of what they 0:14:00.520 --> 0:14:04.320 have to say about ninja, popular culture and ninja fiction 0:14:04.480 --> 0:14:04.920 here in a. 0:14:04.840 --> 0:14:17.080 Bit now, I think maybe we should do a rundown 0:14:17.160 --> 0:14:20.840 of some of the common characteristics of the twentieth century 0:14:21.440 --> 0:14:25.800 movie Ninja, the international market movie Ninja. So usually this 0:14:25.960 --> 0:14:30.520 ninja is a stealthy assassin, dressed head to toe in 0:14:30.640 --> 0:14:34.440 cloth coverings, usually black cloths or a black costume, with 0:14:34.520 --> 0:14:38.240 a mask that covers most of the face except maybe 0:14:38.280 --> 0:14:41.520 like an opening for the eyes or some other kind 0:14:41.520 --> 0:14:44.640 of gap in the face covering, but otherwise head to 0:14:44.640 --> 0:14:45.480 toe black cloth. 0:14:46.040 --> 0:14:49.400 Yeah, that's just the iconic idea of a ninja. You 0:14:49.400 --> 0:14:52.960 can't say the word ninja without picturing that on some level. 0:14:53.040 --> 0:14:53.920 What does the ninja do? 0:14:54.160 --> 0:14:54.360 Well? 0:14:54.400 --> 0:14:58.240 The ninja is a master of martial arts combat with 0:14:58.360 --> 0:15:02.600 a batman style belt of special tools and weapons, often 0:15:02.640 --> 0:15:06.640 including a grappling hook for climbing, smoke bombs to hide 0:15:06.680 --> 0:15:10.120 an escape, and pointed metal throwing stars that can be 0:15:10.160 --> 0:15:12.200 thrown with deadly accuracy. 0:15:12.040 --> 0:15:15.600 Right along with of course the katana for some sword play, 0:15:15.840 --> 0:15:20.360 maybe various other little shorter sword, yeah, shorter swords and 0:15:20.480 --> 0:15:25.280 various you know, various gadgets has required, generally all related 0:15:25.280 --> 0:15:26.720 to stell the assassination. 0:15:27.520 --> 0:15:32.200 They are often depicted as capable of almost superhuman acrobatics 0:15:32.280 --> 0:15:35.760 bordering on the ability to fly. And I think it's 0:15:35.760 --> 0:15:38.920 interesting Turnbull actually points this out in his book that 0:15:39.760 --> 0:15:44.400 it is often within settings that are taken as otherwise realistic, 0:15:44.640 --> 0:15:49.440 or within fictional settings where magic is not otherwise assumed 0:15:49.480 --> 0:15:54.280 to exist, that ninja have these apparently supernatural abilities. You know, 0:15:54.360 --> 0:15:57.880 it's not a full fantasy world, it's like realistic setting, 0:15:57.880 --> 0:15:59.720 but the ninjas can basically fly. 0:16:00.400 --> 0:16:02.640 Yeah. Yeah, we'll get into more on that in a bit. 0:16:03.000 --> 0:16:06.280 I'd say other aspects of the pop culture ninja is 0:16:06.280 --> 0:16:10.320 that the ninja there's no like Ninja by night, blank 0:16:10.400 --> 0:16:15.960 by day. Ninja are generally depicted as being like fanatics, 0:16:16.520 --> 0:16:21.360 as being completely devoted to their art of stealth and assassination, 0:16:21.920 --> 0:16:25.120 and in generally and oftentimes they're you know, villains and 0:16:25.160 --> 0:16:27.880 sometimes secondary villains and a lot of properties, So there's 0:16:27.880 --> 0:16:30.880 not a lot of effort given to develop their characters 0:16:30.880 --> 0:16:34.200 outside of the adversary that they're presented as. 0:16:34.440 --> 0:16:37.280 Yeah, sometimes they're presented as members of a sort of 0:16:37.400 --> 0:16:42.080 secret international brotherhood of some kind that they belong to 0:16:42.240 --> 0:16:48.720 some corpus or body of similarly trained people. In some cases, 0:16:48.760 --> 0:16:51.520 I do think there are sort of alter ego, you know, 0:16:51.600 --> 0:16:54.440 Clark Kent Superman ninja's. In fact, I think there is 0:16:54.560 --> 0:16:58.280 one in Ninja three, the Domination. Oh okay, so I 0:16:58.320 --> 0:17:00.280 think it pops up from time to time, but I 0:17:00.320 --> 0:17:02.800 agree that most of the time, in like American movies, 0:17:03.000 --> 0:17:05.399 it's as if all they ever do is like sneak 0:17:05.440 --> 0:17:07.320 around and do stealth missions. 0:17:07.160 --> 0:17:10.359 Right, and have great, great eyes. We really want to 0:17:10.400 --> 0:17:14.840 have really expressive eyes in your cinematic ninja's, you know, 0:17:14.880 --> 0:17:16.600 because that's all you're going to see of the actor 0:17:16.640 --> 0:17:18.080 at least, and when they're in Ninja. 0:17:17.840 --> 0:17:23.680 Mold brows that narrow dramatically. Yeah. There's one more thing 0:17:23.720 --> 0:17:26.320 I came across in Turnbull that I really liked regarding 0:17:26.400 --> 0:17:30.919 like the ninja's obscure tools and techniques. There's one that 0:17:31.080 --> 0:17:34.600 is from a novel by Yamata Futaro, who you mentioned 0:17:34.640 --> 0:17:38.080 a minute ago is writing these influential ninja stories and 0:17:38.440 --> 0:17:40.560 novels in the nineteen fifties. This is from a nineteen 0:17:40.600 --> 0:17:45.280 fifty eight novel called Coca Ninpocho, which Turnbull says is 0:17:45.359 --> 0:17:51.120 basically a mostly accurate historical setting, but the ninjas within 0:17:51.200 --> 0:17:55.200 the story can turn their hair into porcupine quills which 0:17:55.200 --> 0:17:58.040 they like shoot off and launch as weapons, so like 0:17:58.280 --> 0:17:59.160 weaponized hair. 0:17:59.680 --> 0:18:02.679 Yeah, yeah, the dark magic of the ninja. Now, I 0:18:02.680 --> 0:18:06.520 want to come back to Showgun for a second here. Showgun, 0:18:06.600 --> 0:18:09.040 of course, it was a nineteen seventy five novel. There 0:18:09.119 --> 0:18:12.880 is a subsequent TV minis series about it based on it, 0:18:13.040 --> 0:18:15.240 and then there's been a more recent twenty twenty four 0:18:15.320 --> 0:18:20.400 adaptation of Showgun that is quite excellent. I loved it. 0:18:21.520 --> 0:18:23.760 My wife and I loved it. Everyone I've talked to 0:18:23.800 --> 0:18:26.680 has really enjoyed it, and they went to great pains 0:18:26.880 --> 0:18:29.760 with this adaptation to sort of make sure that it 0:18:29.840 --> 0:18:34.480 was grounded as properly as they could in history and 0:18:34.760 --> 0:18:38.919 in Japanese culture. Though James Colovell's Showgun is like an 0:18:38.920 --> 0:18:42.800 adaptation of history, I guess you would say it is 0:18:42.840 --> 0:18:46.640 a work of fiction based on history, written by an 0:18:46.640 --> 0:18:51.040 outsider who was interested in these things. But there is, 0:18:51.240 --> 0:18:55.600 of course this pivotal sequence in the novel and in 0:18:55.640 --> 0:18:59.040 adaptations that involved the ninja, and it has been argued 0:18:59.040 --> 0:19:02.200 that Clavel introduce the concept of ninja into the West. 0:19:02.800 --> 0:19:05.000 I've also read it argue that, like for a while, 0:19:06.080 --> 0:19:07.879 this was a very successful novel, A lot of people 0:19:07.880 --> 0:19:12.000 read it like a lot of what many Westerners knew 0:19:12.040 --> 0:19:15.320 about about Japanese history and Japanese culture was based on 0:19:15.359 --> 0:19:17.760 this book. You know, It's like it was. It kind 0:19:17.760 --> 0:19:19.879 of had the same role as You Only Live Twice 0:19:19.880 --> 0:19:22.760 in this regard, a very popular work of media that 0:19:23.040 --> 0:19:26.120 was for many people their their first or primary exposure 0:19:26.400 --> 0:19:29.160 to this different culture and different time period. But again, 0:19:29.200 --> 0:19:32.480 the novels based on history, it's not one hundred percent accurate. 0:19:32.840 --> 0:19:36.159 I think the recent TV series does a pretty good 0:19:36.280 --> 0:19:39.200 job of updating everything as far as I understand it, 0:19:39.240 --> 0:19:42.159 And so the ninja or shinobi that we see in 0:19:42.200 --> 0:19:46.200 it that they seem like they seem to have done 0:19:46.200 --> 0:19:48.320 what they could to sort of ground it more properly. 0:19:48.800 --> 0:19:52.800 Though I think they're still sort of reflecting the trappings 0:19:52.840 --> 0:19:56.080 of the ninja's pop culture glow. So they're not all 0:19:56.160 --> 0:19:58.919 dressed in black, and they're certainly not wearing white or 0:19:59.000 --> 0:20:01.959 you know, bright moral on back colors, but they are 0:20:04.000 --> 0:20:08.639 more recognizable as pop culture ninjas. Quick note on the 0:20:08.680 --> 0:20:14.159 word ninja plural and singular is ninja, But I am 0:20:14.200 --> 0:20:16.760 inevitably going to keep saying ninja's from time to time. 0:20:16.840 --> 0:20:18.200 So my apologies. 0:20:18.400 --> 0:20:21.160 I've been thinking about that exact thing. I realized, Yeah, 0:20:21.200 --> 0:20:24.480 it's ninja is plural, But I bet I've already said 0:20:24.560 --> 0:20:27.359 ninja's I can't stop myself. Yeah. 0:20:27.480 --> 0:20:30.959 But on the Showgun issue, I turned to editor Henry 0:20:30.960 --> 0:20:35.119 Smith's book Learning from Showgun, Japanese History in Western Fantasy. 0:20:35.680 --> 0:20:37.320 This is put out as part of the program in 0:20:37.359 --> 0:20:41.360 Asian Studies at the University of California, Santa Barbara. In 0:20:41.400 --> 0:20:45.680 this the editor and the authors here point out that 0:20:45.800 --> 0:20:50.159 ninjas in the novel Showgun Quote reflect the romanticization of 0:20:50.200 --> 0:20:54.399 the ninja in modern Japanese popular entertainment. So the idea 0:20:54.440 --> 0:20:57.719 here that what we see in the novel, and inevitably 0:20:57.760 --> 0:21:00.760 in any adaptation, we see the ninja as this violent 0:21:00.840 --> 0:21:05.959 death cult of fanatical assassins. And as we'll be discussing, 0:21:06.640 --> 0:21:09.800 there's some truth to that, to their role in assassination 0:21:09.840 --> 0:21:14.440 and stealth and even military endeavors. But there's a lot 0:21:14.480 --> 0:21:16.280 more of the myth in the legend here in this 0:21:16.720 --> 0:21:19.760 usage of the ninja than anything. 0:21:19.359 --> 0:21:24.560 Else, and the overtaking of historical fact by sort of 0:21:24.640 --> 0:21:28.840 myth and storytelling and romanticization of the ninja, that that 0:21:29.240 --> 0:21:32.679 tradition that goes way back. Actually, it's not just a 0:21:33.280 --> 0:21:34.640 twentieth century thing. 0:21:34.720 --> 0:21:37.480 And it's not just a Western appropriation of it or 0:21:37.480 --> 0:21:39.720 anything like that. Like it would be easier to sort 0:21:39.720 --> 0:21:42.159 of sum it all up if it were like, well, 0:21:42.400 --> 0:21:45.360 there's the Japanese reality of what ninjas were, and then 0:21:45.400 --> 0:21:47.239 westerner's got a hold of it, and of course they 0:21:47.320 --> 0:21:51.000 transformed it. There is some Western transformation of it involved, 0:21:51.000 --> 0:21:54.160 but for the most part, this transformation of the historic 0:21:54.240 --> 0:21:58.040 ninja into the pop cultural trope of the ninja, this 0:21:58.119 --> 0:22:03.440 all occurred Withinese popular culture, well in advance of anything 0:22:03.720 --> 0:22:04.879 James Bond got up to. 0:22:05.400 --> 0:22:08.159 Yeah, one thing I think we should establish early and 0:22:08.200 --> 0:22:10.440 this is this is something that is a major theme 0:22:10.600 --> 0:22:14.159 of this book by Turnbull that I've been referencing, is 0:22:14.200 --> 0:22:17.600 that apparently a huge amount of what is commonly said 0:22:17.640 --> 0:22:22.000 about the ninja, even in apparently authoritative books and museums 0:22:22.040 --> 0:22:26.639 and other historical sources, is based on text traditions that 0:22:26.800 --> 0:22:31.800 do not necessarily reflect what really happened in history. So 0:22:31.920 --> 0:22:34.720 there is sort of a ninja tradition, or maybe to 0:22:34.760 --> 0:22:39.080 be more phonetically accurate, a shanobi tradition that is Japanese 0:22:39.119 --> 0:22:42.440 in origin and does in many ways go back hundreds 0:22:42.480 --> 0:22:45.879 of years, but still may not be based on real 0:22:45.920 --> 0:22:50.680 figures and practices in history that the term shinobi originally 0:22:50.720 --> 0:22:51.320 referred to. 0:22:51.880 --> 0:22:54.919 Yeah, absolutely, Like in the past, I've heard people be 0:22:55.119 --> 0:22:59.159 as firm as to say the ninja didn't really exist. 0:22:59.200 --> 0:23:02.040 The ninja are men, And I think you could basically 0:23:02.119 --> 0:23:04.359 say that that's a true statement to some degree, Like 0:23:04.400 --> 0:23:10.000 the ninja as we see them in popular culture didn't 0:23:10.000 --> 0:23:13.560 really exist, but they are based on a thing that did. 0:23:14.600 --> 0:23:17.080 And it's fun to get into that and try and 0:23:17.480 --> 0:23:21.080 peace apart like what was real, what was probably real? 0:23:21.359 --> 0:23:24.240 What isn't an embellishment and what does that embellishment mean? 0:23:24.960 --> 0:23:27.399 In the book by Yoda and All, they point out that, 0:23:27.600 --> 0:23:32.080 like basically the term ninja or even shnobi, we're dealing 0:23:32.119 --> 0:23:36.199 with a colloquial term that can be translated to things like, 0:23:36.240 --> 0:23:39.280 you know, a clandestine person or one who is invisible. 0:23:40.720 --> 0:23:43.040 But historically they would have been known by a whole 0:23:43.040 --> 0:23:47.240 bunch of different colloquial terms, including, but not limited to 0:23:47.920 --> 0:23:52.760 a few of these examples. So there's ninjutsu suska, which 0:23:52.800 --> 0:23:56.240 means like a practitioner of ninjutsu, the art of stealth. 0:23:57.280 --> 0:24:00.359 There's one called on Mitsu, which would have meant like 0:24:00.400 --> 0:24:03.400 the secret service. And then there are a couple here 0:24:03.400 --> 0:24:05.720 I want to include that I think are neat because 0:24:05.720 --> 0:24:08.880 they kind of hint at some of the other like 0:24:09.240 --> 0:24:12.360 non stereotypical modern ninja things they would have been up to. 0:24:12.880 --> 0:24:18.600 There's one that they would have translated to the shortcutters, 0:24:19.280 --> 0:24:21.239 which I rather like. You know, it's like, you have 0:24:21.320 --> 0:24:26.320 some sort of a political, military, or social problem and 0:24:26.680 --> 0:24:32.560 traditional honorable means of dealing with those problems are not achievable, 0:24:32.800 --> 0:24:34.919 So what do you need. You need a shortcut, and 0:24:34.960 --> 0:24:37.120 that's why you seek out the shortcutters. 0:24:37.400 --> 0:24:38.160 That's very cool. 0:24:38.359 --> 0:24:41.800 There's another one that I believe is Okami, that I've 0:24:41.800 --> 0:24:45.040 seen translated as the silent watchers, And I think that's 0:24:45.080 --> 0:24:49.000 also important here because while, yeah, while the while while 0:24:49.000 --> 0:24:53.520 the historic ninjas would have involved themselves or been hired 0:24:53.680 --> 0:24:57.480 to deal in military and assassination type scenarios, they also 0:24:57.560 --> 0:25:03.000 might have been involved in entirely non violent affairs as well, 0:25:03.440 --> 0:25:05.720 things that we might typically describe more as like straight 0:25:05.840 --> 0:25:07.639 up spy and espionage business. 0:25:08.200 --> 0:25:11.360 And often I think I've seen the word ukami translated 0:25:11.440 --> 0:25:14.959 as spy. Yeah, and that leads back to how I 0:25:15.040 --> 0:25:18.760 think many of the earliest understandings of the ninja or 0:25:18.800 --> 0:25:24.160 shanobi have to do with spying and infiltration in warfare, 0:25:25.320 --> 0:25:29.200 and so to situate the classical understanding of the ninja 0:25:29.200 --> 0:25:32.800 within a conceptual context, I wanted to talk briefly about 0:25:32.840 --> 0:25:37.600 the precedent of using spies and infiltrators in war. And 0:25:37.920 --> 0:25:40.960 Turnbull does this by making reference in his book to 0:25:41.080 --> 0:25:44.760 the classic Chinese text The Art of War by Sun Zoo, 0:25:45.040 --> 0:25:48.000 or Turnbull calls him sun z I guess they're different 0:25:48.000 --> 0:25:51.040 ways of pronouncing the name, but I think I'm gonna 0:25:51.040 --> 0:25:54.240 say sun Zoo because that's more familiar to me. So 0:25:54.280 --> 0:25:57.439 this is a classic Chinese text, usually dated to the 0:25:57.440 --> 0:26:01.000 fifth century BCE. Apparently, any of the authors of the 0:26:01.000 --> 0:26:04.879 Tokugawa period who wrote the Tales of the Shinobi establishing 0:26:04.920 --> 0:26:07.520 a lot of this lore would have been very familiar 0:26:07.560 --> 0:26:09.800 with Sunzu in the Art of War and other sort 0:26:09.840 --> 0:26:14.679 of warfare manuals of this type. And apparently Sunzu talks 0:26:14.800 --> 0:26:18.720 about the concept of a secret agent, referring to it 0:26:18.800 --> 0:26:23.400 with the Chinese character khan, which means the space between 0:26:23.480 --> 0:26:27.800 two objects or discord. So This refers to the use 0:26:28.000 --> 0:26:32.600 of secret agents to undermine alliances and sow division within 0:26:32.800 --> 0:26:36.800 within societies or within within armies. And Sunsu actually sort 0:26:36.800 --> 0:26:40.159 of lays out a taxonomy of five different kinds of 0:26:40.200 --> 0:26:43.560 secret agents. I thought this was interesting. So first of all, 0:26:43.640 --> 0:26:48.600 you've got your incan or native agents. These are villagers 0:26:48.640 --> 0:26:51.720 of an enemy's province or country. He says, you can't 0:26:51.720 --> 0:26:55.000 really expect them to do like risky work or carry 0:26:55.000 --> 0:26:58.439 out difficult missions, so they are mainly useful for just 0:26:58.520 --> 0:27:02.720 gathering general information about the enemy's disposition, maybe like where 0:27:02.760 --> 0:27:05.439 the enemy is or the direction of travel and so forth. 0:27:06.119 --> 0:27:10.080 Then after that you've got nikon, which are inside agents. 0:27:10.560 --> 0:27:14.400 These are officials of the enemy government drafted to your 0:27:14.480 --> 0:27:18.680 side by bribes or pay. These agents can supply much 0:27:18.680 --> 0:27:22.680 better quality information, and they are especially useful for creating 0:27:22.720 --> 0:27:26.200 discord within enemy ranks. And if you want to identify 0:27:26.240 --> 0:27:29.200 these people, you can look for officials within the enemy 0:27:29.240 --> 0:27:32.240 government who have been slighted in some way, like maybe 0:27:32.240 --> 0:27:37.600 being insulted or passed over for promotion. Find someone who 0:27:37.720 --> 0:27:41.200 has power who thinks that your enemy has treated them unfairly. 0:27:42.000 --> 0:27:46.840 After that you've got yukon or friendly agents. This apparently 0:27:46.880 --> 0:27:50.560 refers to double agents. So the enemy has spies as well. 0:27:51.080 --> 0:27:53.520 You are if you want a double agent, you can 0:27:53.800 --> 0:27:57.560 recruit the enemy's spy to actually spy for you or 0:27:57.600 --> 0:28:01.240 to feed false information to their masters. Classic double agents 0:28:01.240 --> 0:28:04.400 set up. YEA. Then there's one called Chikhan, which means 0:28:04.600 --> 0:28:08.440 dead agents. This one is interesting and pretty cold. It's 0:28:08.640 --> 0:28:13.560 the idea of expendable allies who can unknowingly be given 0:28:13.760 --> 0:28:16.920 false information which they believe to be true, and then 0:28:17.000 --> 0:28:21.000 sent deliberately into enemy capture, so when information is extracted 0:28:21.040 --> 0:28:24.840 from them, it will mislead the enemy command. Yeah, that 0:28:24.960 --> 0:28:28.280 is cold. But then finally you get to Chokan, the 0:28:28.359 --> 0:28:32.400 last of the five, who are called living agents, and 0:28:32.760 --> 0:28:36.120 what Turnbull says about them is the following quote. They 0:28:36.440 --> 0:28:40.280 go boldly into enemy territory and return with valuable information. 0:28:41.000 --> 0:28:44.040 For this purpose, men who are pre eminent in intelligence 0:28:44.080 --> 0:28:47.560 are selected. They have the ability to withstand great hardship 0:28:47.760 --> 0:28:50.720 and have the social skills to gain access to those 0:28:50.760 --> 0:28:53.000 of the enemy who are closest to the seat of power. 0:28:53.400 --> 0:28:56.960 These are the classic spies envisaged by the Ninja myth. 0:28:57.840 --> 0:28:59.920 So to be clear, these are not being called nin 0:29:00.280 --> 0:29:02.760 or anything in this context. This is a much earlier work, 0:29:03.040 --> 0:29:06.840 but it's establishing this sort of principle within warfare and 0:29:06.880 --> 0:29:10.360 within the taxonomy of spies and secret agents, that there's 0:29:10.360 --> 0:29:13.840 already this idea of this like James Bond spy kind 0:29:13.880 --> 0:29:17.280 of figure, or this ninja, this person who is a 0:29:18.200 --> 0:29:20.920 who is an agent, who can strike out on their own, 0:29:20.960 --> 0:29:25.640 who can act and has some kind of like has capability, 0:29:25.720 --> 0:29:29.560 has powers, and they can go into hostile territory and 0:29:30.000 --> 0:29:34.320 carry out a mission to gather information or sow discord 0:29:34.400 --> 0:29:35.520 or do whatever is needed. 0:29:35.840 --> 0:29:37.400 Yeah, And of course, in all of this, sun Zoo 0:29:37.520 --> 0:29:42.440 is codifying realities that already existed in warfare. One thing 0:29:42.480 --> 0:29:43.920 that Yoda and all point out is you can look 0:29:43.960 --> 0:29:48.200 into various old texts and some ancient texts and you 0:29:48.200 --> 0:29:51.200 can see allusions to this kind of spycraft. They are 0:29:51.200 --> 0:29:55.840 apparently examples from the Old Testament that also involve, you know, 0:29:55.920 --> 0:29:59.280 something you could interpret us as spy work and espionage, 0:29:59.320 --> 0:30:01.440 like you go out on this mission, do this thing, 0:30:01.920 --> 0:30:06.120 you know, so, you know, again codifying realities that were 0:30:06.120 --> 0:30:10.840 already present, but meaningfully doing so meaningfully and in a 0:30:10.920 --> 0:30:14.760 very influential way. That with the ripples are going to spread, 0:30:14.800 --> 0:30:19.480 of course, out of China, through Japan and ultimately globally. 0:30:19.760 --> 0:30:21.400 I do think it's kind of interesting that if you 0:30:21.440 --> 0:30:24.760 think beyond the concept of just the ninja and to 0:30:24.800 --> 0:30:29.960 the broader idea of like any character in fiction who 0:30:30.120 --> 0:30:34.160 is depicted as having like peak abilities in almost every domain, 0:30:34.320 --> 0:30:37.560 like they know everything, they're the smartest, they speak all 0:30:37.600 --> 0:30:41.320 these languages, they're you know, unbeatable in hand to hand combat. 0:30:41.960 --> 0:30:46.360 I would say the most common profession this character has 0:30:46.480 --> 0:30:48.840 is spy. Isn't that kind of interesting? 0:30:49.480 --> 0:30:52.000 It is interesting? Yeah, I mean on one level, I 0:30:52.000 --> 0:30:57.120 think it's a realization of the intense level of danger 0:30:57.200 --> 0:30:59.840 that individuals like this would put themselves in. Like even 0:30:59.840 --> 0:31:02.960 if there you know, not involved in an actual like 0:31:03.400 --> 0:31:07.880 ninja movie fight and stealth sequence, you know, it's like 0:31:07.920 --> 0:31:11.200 the intense danger of engaging in that level of deception 0:31:11.320 --> 0:31:14.680 and betrayal, you know, like on just like a social 0:31:14.800 --> 0:31:18.120 level and a legal level, like you're in you're engaging 0:31:18.160 --> 0:31:21.959 in a high level of danger. Now, another interesting thing. 0:31:22.000 --> 0:31:23.720 We didn't mention this when we talked about the trope 0:31:23.760 --> 0:31:26.440 of the ninja in popular culture, but another thing you 0:31:26.480 --> 0:31:30.120 frequently see you will see examples of ninjas who you know, 0:31:30.280 --> 0:31:34.800 use modern gadgets and or are robots or cyborgs. There's 0:31:34.800 --> 0:31:36.080 a lot of fun to be had there. But a 0:31:36.120 --> 0:31:39.760 lot of times the ninja is depicted as an operative 0:31:40.360 --> 0:31:43.840 even in like a modern or nineteen eighties nineteen ninety setting, 0:31:44.120 --> 0:31:49.600 who depends in large part on traditional even archaic weapons 0:31:49.960 --> 0:31:53.880 used with great skill. But like if a ninja needs 0:31:53.920 --> 0:31:57.080 to you know, get past a you know, computer console 0:31:57.200 --> 0:32:00.160 on a security door, you're more likely to see that 0:32:00.240 --> 0:32:02.920 movie Ninja throw a throwing star through it, right, or 0:32:03.040 --> 0:32:04.800 shoot it with a bow and arrow, as opposed to 0:32:04.840 --> 0:32:07.800 get down there and stick in a USB stick or 0:32:07.840 --> 0:32:11.200 start you know, hacking the computer system. 0:32:11.400 --> 0:32:13.480 Yeah, I really have a picture in my mind of 0:32:13.560 --> 0:32:16.719 somebody like chucking a throwing star into a computer and 0:32:16.760 --> 0:32:19.560 like sparks shoot out of it. Yeah, that's that's how 0:32:19.560 --> 0:32:20.520 you get past security. 0:32:21.200 --> 0:32:25.880 But an important point that Yoda and altamic about the 0:32:26.040 --> 0:32:27.840 myth of the ninja and the modern idea of the 0:32:27.920 --> 0:32:31.560 ninja versus the historic reality as we understand it is 0:32:31.600 --> 0:32:35.640 that these individuals would not have been picky about like 0:32:35.800 --> 0:32:38.280 what level of technology that they used. In fact, they 0:32:38.360 --> 0:32:42.280 would have used like the latest advancements available such as 0:32:42.360 --> 0:32:46.920 gunpowder for example. So it's it's kind of just a 0:32:47.000 --> 0:32:51.600 virtue of us spinning modern tails about an older pop 0:32:51.640 --> 0:32:56.280 cultural idea than anything like. So, yeah, if the Ninja 0:32:56.320 --> 0:33:00.480 had access to James Bond spy gadgets, they use those 0:33:00.560 --> 0:33:04.360 James Bond spy gadgets like they are like any espionage 0:33:04.360 --> 0:33:07.000 operative out there. They'll make use of the best tools 0:33:07.000 --> 0:33:08.560 available to pull off the deed. 0:33:18.080 --> 0:33:21.760 Now, another interesting way of understanding that the ninja character archetype, 0:33:21.760 --> 0:33:26.720 by contrast, is something that the Turnbull highlights in the book, 0:33:26.720 --> 0:33:31.200 which is the idea of the ninja as the quote 0:33:31.280 --> 0:33:36.920 dark antithesis of the samurai, another historical character. Now, again 0:33:37.000 --> 0:33:40.760 this is something that is not necessarily a historical reality. 0:33:40.840 --> 0:33:44.880 This is something that is how the ninja archetype is 0:33:44.920 --> 0:33:49.880 reflected within storytelling and tradition, not necessarily historically real, but 0:33:50.040 --> 0:33:53.720 within these traditions you can see that see the contrast here. 0:33:54.720 --> 0:33:58.480 The samurai are warriors who are nobles. The Ninja are 0:33:58.520 --> 0:34:02.760 often represented as commers. The samurai are depicted as loyal 0:34:02.840 --> 0:34:07.360 and honorable, the ninja as treacherous and mercenary. The samurai 0:34:07.400 --> 0:34:09.960 fight their enemy face to face, while the ninja sneak 0:34:10.040 --> 0:34:12.160 up on people, you know that, stab people in the back, 0:34:13.080 --> 0:34:16.960 and as a spy, the ninja must always survive the 0:34:17.000 --> 0:34:21.360 mission at all costs to deliver the gathered intelligence, whereas 0:34:21.400 --> 0:34:24.680 the samurai is very often depicted as dying selflessly in 0:34:24.719 --> 0:34:29.200 battle and maintaining having an honorable death. And so in 0:34:29.600 --> 0:34:33.439 all these ways, within the storytelling tradition, the ninja could 0:34:33.440 --> 0:34:37.200 often be seen as positioned as like the the the 0:34:37.239 --> 0:34:40.440 negative mirror image of the samurai warrior trope. 0:34:41.080 --> 0:34:43.640 Yeah, yeah, I think that that is key, and it 0:34:43.680 --> 0:34:47.080 does seem to get into some historic realities like, for instance, 0:34:47.120 --> 0:34:51.280 the idea that that apparently ninja would have very often 0:34:51.320 --> 0:34:56.800 been lower born men and women as opposed to warrior 0:34:56.840 --> 0:35:01.479 class individuals. So there is this like the social distinction there. 0:35:01.520 --> 0:35:03.480 But and then also when it comes down to what 0:35:03.560 --> 0:35:07.040 stories are told and celebrated, the stories of the samurai 0:35:07.400 --> 0:35:12.000 were celebrated and told and retold, and legends were told 0:35:12.000 --> 0:35:16.320 about them far ahead of anything like this with the ninja. 0:35:17.120 --> 0:35:19.720 The ninja would would have been essentially been the dirty 0:35:19.719 --> 0:35:24.520 tricks department for any feudal lord looking to solve some 0:35:24.560 --> 0:35:28.120 sort of again political, military, or social problem that they 0:35:28.120 --> 0:35:33.200 couldn't otherwise approach, and it was not something that you 0:35:33.239 --> 0:35:36.880 would have talked about in polite society. Like the shanobi 0:35:36.960 --> 0:35:40.280 and the various colloquial terms would have been synonymous with trouble. 0:35:40.600 --> 0:35:43.359 They weren't to be celebrated, even if you prize their 0:35:43.400 --> 0:35:47.120 skills secretly, and in employing them you would have hoped 0:35:47.160 --> 0:35:50.600 to retain plausible deniability over whatever was about to happen. 0:35:51.080 --> 0:35:53.800 In general, we may get into some you know, some 0:35:54.560 --> 0:35:58.000 examples to the contrary, but in general, like this was 0:35:58.440 --> 0:35:59.880 this was the dirty tricks department. 0:36:00.400 --> 0:36:02.440 But yes, to come back to your point, despite the 0:36:03.040 --> 0:36:06.520 later profusion of valorizing tales, you know, often at the 0:36:06.560 --> 0:36:11.160 time people don't feel so excited or proud about I 0:36:11.200 --> 0:36:15.200 don't know, deception in warfare or secretive military activities, even 0:36:15.320 --> 0:36:17.440 if they are necessary to winning. 0:36:17.520 --> 0:36:21.960 Sometimes, yeah, better to celebrate the tale of the noble 0:36:22.000 --> 0:36:26.200 and victorious samurai than the the shnov that you pay 0:36:26.280 --> 0:36:28.600 to go in and stab somebody in the back. Now, 0:36:28.640 --> 0:36:30.560 I want to add a quick note. I mentioned men 0:36:30.640 --> 0:36:34.120 and women, and on the subject of a female ninja, 0:36:34.200 --> 0:36:37.800 they did apparently exist, though the reality was likely nowhere 0:36:37.840 --> 0:36:41.719 near what image may be summoned in your head here, 0:36:41.760 --> 0:36:44.760 you know, the various pop culture ideas of a female ninja. 0:36:45.360 --> 0:36:47.520 Yoda and all point out that there's no indication that 0:36:47.560 --> 0:36:50.319 any female ninja ever engaged in combat of any kind 0:36:50.440 --> 0:36:54.240 or again that we have no direct evidence or writings 0:36:54.239 --> 0:36:57.560 of that. But female spies at the very least would 0:36:57.600 --> 0:37:01.319 have been able to move through parts of society that 0:37:01.400 --> 0:37:06.040 would have been less accessible or inaccessible to men, or 0:37:06.120 --> 0:37:09.480 move in ways that men would easily overlook. They might 0:37:09.520 --> 0:37:14.359 disguise themselves as entertainers, as prostitutes, as household staff, and 0:37:14.400 --> 0:37:19.480 a particular note, as transient Mico holy women. So these 0:37:19.480 --> 0:37:23.160 would have been the modern version is they tend to 0:37:23.200 --> 0:37:25.920 shinto shrines and so forth. But this would have been 0:37:25.960 --> 0:37:28.680 like a loose knit order, so not a lot of 0:37:28.760 --> 0:37:30.719 like you know, you can't like check the papers as 0:37:30.800 --> 0:37:34.560 much of these individuals. And they would have traveled around. 0:37:34.960 --> 0:37:39.280 So it's a great cover story for any female ninjas, 0:37:39.480 --> 0:37:42.279 female spies that would have been utilized. It would have 0:37:42.280 --> 0:37:45.600 been an ideal cover. And these were sometimes referred to 0:37:45.680 --> 0:37:50.480 as the kno ichi, but very little is known about them. 0:37:50.560 --> 0:37:53.239 The use of female spies may have been considered even 0:37:53.280 --> 0:37:58.440 more taboo than just using spies or shnovi in general. 0:37:59.000 --> 0:38:02.280 And we really only have legends about a single named 0:38:02.280 --> 0:38:05.560 female ninja. This would have been the sixteenth century figure 0:38:06.239 --> 0:38:10.440 Mochizuki chi Yojo. It is thought that she was a 0:38:10.440 --> 0:38:13.640 real person, but we don't even know the like one 0:38:14.280 --> 0:38:18.640 correct pronunciation of her name. But but but still it 0:38:18.719 --> 0:38:21.440 was probably a real person based on what I've been reading. 0:38:21.760 --> 0:38:23.759 But anyway, all of this makes sense because again, this 0:38:23.840 --> 0:38:25.920 is about not playing by the rules. This is about 0:38:25.960 --> 0:38:29.719 breaking the rules, uh, doing the taboo thing in order 0:38:29.760 --> 0:38:34.960 to achieve your military political goals. And so in that case, 0:38:35.520 --> 0:38:37.600 you know, all cards are on the table there. 0:38:37.880 --> 0:38:41.279 Rob So you found something about like the earliest references 0:38:41.320 --> 0:38:43.920 to ninjas in their all black costume. 0:38:44.440 --> 0:38:48.040 Yeah, this is this was really interesting because you know, 0:38:48.080 --> 0:38:50.640 the iconic vision of the of the ninja, as we've 0:38:50.640 --> 0:38:54.600 been discussing, is that of the ninja and all black, 0:38:54.920 --> 0:38:57.880 you know, blending into the shadows, creeping along the rooftops 0:38:57.920 --> 0:39:00.840 and so so forth. Like you just you can't separate 0:39:00.920 --> 0:39:03.960 that from the pop culture idea of the ninja. But 0:39:04.200 --> 0:39:06.800 this seemed this idea that they wore all black and 0:39:06.840 --> 0:39:09.880 trooped around like this apparently did not emerge in Japan 0:39:10.480 --> 0:39:15.120 until around eighteen seventeen, or at least that's when we 0:39:15.239 --> 0:39:20.279 see the first known print, the first known image of 0:39:20.560 --> 0:39:24.160 a ninja wearing this sort of garb. And it actually 0:39:24.160 --> 0:39:29.160 ties into a very important figure in Japanese art history, 0:39:29.880 --> 0:39:34.320 Katsushi Kuhokusai, who if you're not familiar with his name, 0:39:34.760 --> 0:39:37.720 you're very familiar with at least his most famous piece, 0:39:37.760 --> 0:39:41.160 and that is the Great Wave of Kandagatwa. This artist 0:39:41.160 --> 0:39:43.359 lives seventeen sixty through eighteen forty nine. 0:39:43.880 --> 0:39:46.200 And so what do we see in his woodblock featuring 0:39:46.239 --> 0:39:47.640 a ninja. 0:39:47.080 --> 0:39:50.080 Well, we see something that is just instantly recognizable as 0:39:50.120 --> 0:39:52.120 a modern ninja. Like you could not mistake this for 0:39:52.200 --> 0:39:56.160 anything else, right, because it is a man all in black, 0:39:56.480 --> 0:39:59.959 everything covered except his eyes, and he's climbing a rope. 0:40:00.040 --> 0:40:02.720 You just know he's climbing. You know, he's climbing somewhere 0:40:02.760 --> 0:40:05.520 he's not supposed to be, or he's returning from that 0:40:05.600 --> 0:40:11.040 place having assassinated somebody or having stolen some important scrolls 0:40:11.160 --> 0:40:15.080 or something to that. To that effect, Now, where does 0:40:15.120 --> 0:40:17.680 this come from? I mean, I'm you would be tempted, 0:40:17.680 --> 0:40:20.200 and I think would be very understandable to guess, well, 0:40:20.320 --> 0:40:23.120 you're just you're making an assumption that if you're up 0:40:23.160 --> 0:40:25.839 to secretive things, you might wear all black to blend in, right. 0:40:25.880 --> 0:40:30.000 I mean, it makes sense, and it has been pointed 0:40:30.040 --> 0:40:32.479 out that, you know, it would be ridiculous to say, 0:40:32.880 --> 0:40:36.000 no historic Ninja's ever dressed like this, because in the 0:40:36.400 --> 0:40:39.319 art of espionage it you know, it might make sense 0:40:39.320 --> 0:40:42.839 to do so at some point. But it's been interpreted 0:40:43.440 --> 0:40:47.279 that what we see here is essentially like a use 0:40:47.360 --> 0:40:52.160 or a repurpose of what in Japanese theater is known 0:40:52.200 --> 0:40:56.040 as akuroko, which is someone that is dressed all in black, 0:40:56.840 --> 0:41:00.920 essentially a stage hand that is to aid in the 0:41:00.960 --> 0:41:03.799 production in ways that you know that don't distract from 0:41:03.840 --> 0:41:06.759 the key performance. And this is something we see in 0:41:06.880 --> 0:41:08.920 theater arts around the world as well. You see it 0:41:08.920 --> 0:41:13.120 in puppetry, for example, you want an invisible puppeteer, then 0:41:13.160 --> 0:41:15.279 you have them just wear all black and black over 0:41:15.280 --> 0:41:18.880 their faces as well, so they blend into the background 0:41:18.920 --> 0:41:20.960 and don't distract from the central performance. 0:41:21.160 --> 0:41:23.680 Yeah, when I've done theater, you know people working backstage 0:41:23.680 --> 0:41:25.600 were dressed in all black, and I guess the idea 0:41:25.600 --> 0:41:27.799 is you're just less likely to be seen that way. 0:41:28.280 --> 0:41:33.040 But yeah, Turnbull talks about this that in traditional kabuki theater, 0:41:33.239 --> 0:41:36.200 there were these figures, the corogo or the coroko, who 0:41:36.640 --> 0:41:40.759 would wear all black to like move scenery around or 0:41:41.320 --> 0:41:44.680 maybe like help the actors change costume within view of 0:41:44.680 --> 0:41:47.440 the audience or something. But they would be dressed in 0:41:47.480 --> 0:41:49.520 black and they would have a mask over their face, 0:41:49.640 --> 0:41:53.040 and this would symbolize it would not only make them 0:41:53.239 --> 0:41:58.120 stand out less visually, but also apparently would like symbolize invisibility. 0:41:58.719 --> 0:42:01.319 Yeah, so what we're looking here, it's interesting. It's kind 0:42:01.320 --> 0:42:04.440 of a mash up, a visual mashup of the idea 0:42:04.640 --> 0:42:08.400 of the invisible ninja and the mostly invisible presence of 0:42:08.440 --> 0:42:11.359 the stage hand. And of course the stage hand is 0:42:11.880 --> 0:42:15.720 literally manipulating reality, but in a way that is supposed 0:42:15.719 --> 0:42:19.040 to be secondary to the performers. Also interesting to think 0:42:19.040 --> 0:42:22.279 about that a lot of these productions are going to 0:42:22.320 --> 0:42:24.719 involve samurai, you know, so you're going to have like 0:42:24.760 --> 0:42:27.760 the samurai in the forefront doing all the really important 0:42:27.840 --> 0:42:31.320 dramatic stuff, but in the background, there are these almost 0:42:31.320 --> 0:42:36.000 invisible characters who are doing something else, something that that 0:42:36.239 --> 0:42:38.120 we're we're not meant to know about. 0:42:38.400 --> 0:42:40.880 Yeah, But of course, the ironic thing about like dressing 0:42:40.880 --> 0:42:43.520 in a full black costume head to toe is that 0:42:43.600 --> 0:42:46.360 if somebody saw you and you were wearing this costume, 0:42:46.400 --> 0:42:49.360 you would you would instantly stand out in reality, like 0:42:49.400 --> 0:42:51.960 with not in the context of a stage play or something, 0:42:52.719 --> 0:42:55.360 and so yeah, it's it's a contradiction to what would 0:42:55.400 --> 0:42:57.759 actually be said. In most of the texts that talk 0:42:57.800 --> 0:43:00.799 about ninja or Shanobi going way back, they say, oh, 0:43:00.960 --> 0:43:03.360 you know what these people would do is wear a disguise, 0:43:03.600 --> 0:43:05.960 so you blend in with the people that you're trying 0:43:05.960 --> 0:43:07.560 to infiltrate. Yeah. 0:43:07.719 --> 0:43:11.319 So yeah, in general, when we think about what would 0:43:11.320 --> 0:43:13.799 a ninja look like, what would a Shanoby look like, 0:43:14.000 --> 0:43:16.479 they would just look like anybody else. The best way 0:43:16.520 --> 0:43:19.279 to move from point A to point B through the 0:43:19.320 --> 0:43:22.359 people is to look like the people, and so that's 0:43:22.360 --> 0:43:25.040 what they would have done. I guess James Bond does this. 0:43:25.080 --> 0:43:27.000 I can't remember. James Bond's always wearing it. He's always 0:43:27.000 --> 0:43:29.200 going places where you wear a tuxedo anyway, so I 0:43:29.239 --> 0:43:32.000 guess it's like he's doing that. But you know, in general, 0:43:32.120 --> 0:43:34.640 like a spy is going to want to blend into 0:43:34.640 --> 0:43:36.480 the crowd. They don't want to stand out, you know. 0:43:36.560 --> 0:43:41.640 It's that you want to be the least interesting looking 0:43:41.719 --> 0:43:44.960 person in the room because nobody is supposed to know 0:43:45.000 --> 0:43:45.439 you're there. 0:43:46.080 --> 0:43:49.040 I guess it actually highlights a tension between the reality 0:43:49.280 --> 0:43:54.680 of intelligence gathering and spy work and the sort of 0:43:55.040 --> 0:43:57.200 the media demands, which is like, when you want to 0:43:57.239 --> 0:43:59.040 read a spy story, you want it to be the 0:43:59.080 --> 0:44:02.560 most thrilling an exciting thing possible. So you want the 0:44:02.600 --> 0:44:05.680 spy hero to be like to stand out, to be 0:44:05.800 --> 0:44:08.920 notable and exciting in every way. And then reality, if 0:44:08.920 --> 0:44:10.759 you were doing spy work, you would want to be 0:44:10.800 --> 0:44:15.320 the least exciting, least notable looking person on earth. Yeah. 0:44:15.360 --> 0:44:18.600 Absolutely so. I guess at this point we might summarize, 0:44:18.920 --> 0:44:21.920 as we kind of reached towards the end of this episode, 0:44:22.360 --> 0:44:29.080 that the ninja is there's a historical like bedrock, and 0:44:29.120 --> 0:44:32.560 then there is all of this fiction and legend making 0:44:32.840 --> 0:44:36.640 and mythology on top of that. And one of the 0:44:36.680 --> 0:44:43.360 additional challenges here is that there's there's less historical record 0:44:44.040 --> 0:44:47.200 down there on the bedrock than one would like. There's 0:44:47.280 --> 0:44:50.719 a lot more fiction and legend making, and it can 0:44:50.760 --> 0:44:53.000 make things things difficult. It can make it difficult to 0:44:53.040 --> 0:44:55.560 sort of try to weed out what exactly is the 0:44:55.800 --> 0:45:01.520 historic reality of the Shanobi. And then these various groups 0:45:01.560 --> 0:45:06.360 that are described as Shanobi and there apparently are according 0:45:06.360 --> 0:45:09.480 to Yoda and A, there are like three different ways 0:45:09.560 --> 0:45:12.240 of sort of looking at why this is the case. 0:45:12.920 --> 0:45:16.200 And the first is something that we've touched on already, 0:45:16.239 --> 0:45:20.279 and that is that, Okay, if if Shnobi operatives were 0:45:20.360 --> 0:45:25.200 generally common born dirty tricks specialists who were you know, 0:45:25.280 --> 0:45:30.080 taboo to use and not something you'd brag about, they're 0:45:30.120 --> 0:45:32.799 totally not on the same level of cultural esteem and 0:45:32.840 --> 0:45:36.719 power as the samurai warrior class. So the samurai are 0:45:36.760 --> 0:45:38.480 going to get all the stories and the legends and 0:45:38.520 --> 0:45:41.440 the tales at least during their initial that the key 0:45:41.520 --> 0:45:45.600 period of operations here and and the ninja are going 0:45:45.640 --> 0:45:50.960 to be ignored for the most part. Now, another important 0:45:51.000 --> 0:45:54.360 thing to keep in mind is that the ninja would 0:45:54.360 --> 0:45:57.640 have inevitably been a secretive bunch. They were working in 0:45:57.680 --> 0:46:03.160 the shadow. They died under the radar, and Yoda and 0:46:03.200 --> 0:46:08.080 Auld actually signed an individual by the name of Musque Hatsumi, 0:46:08.400 --> 0:46:12.080 the last living descendant of the Tokokushi School of Ninja, 0:46:12.440 --> 0:46:15.320 who stated that quote, if one can know the truth 0:46:15.440 --> 0:46:21.000 about ninjutsu, it isn't really ninjutsu. So this reminds me 0:46:21.040 --> 0:46:24.920 a bit of the nineteen sixty seven Japanese crime thriller 0:46:25.040 --> 0:46:29.600 Branded to Kill, which is a very stylish noir action 0:46:29.760 --> 0:46:33.000 picture about assassins. But in that movie, which again is 0:46:33.360 --> 0:46:35.560 very much work of fiction that's not to be taken 0:46:35.600 --> 0:46:37.880 a reality, it's in a very surreal in some ways. 0:46:39.040 --> 0:46:41.839 But in that fiction, there's like this ranking of assassins, 0:46:42.280 --> 0:46:45.160 and there's supposedly a number one assassin, like the best 0:46:45.239 --> 0:46:50.560 assassin in the world of Japanese crime, but they are 0:46:50.600 --> 0:46:53.280 almost like a ghost there. They might not even exist, 0:46:53.440 --> 0:46:57.319 or perhaps they've kind of transcended traditional existence by being 0:46:57.400 --> 0:47:01.200 the best at what they do. So yeah, I do 0:47:01.320 --> 0:47:02.960 like this idea, and I think there maybe is something 0:47:03.000 --> 0:47:05.360 to acknowledge there that you're dealing with the secret of 0:47:05.480 --> 0:47:08.440 organization that wouldn't want there to be a bunch of 0:47:08.480 --> 0:47:11.160 records about what they did and what they're doing. They 0:47:11.200 --> 0:47:13.839 would have wanted to remain in the shadow. And then 0:47:13.880 --> 0:47:16.720 the third point they make is that during the heyday 0:47:17.000 --> 0:47:21.240 of the Sengoku era, the Warring States of fourteen sixty 0:47:21.280 --> 0:47:25.360 seven through fifteen seventy three. Roughly, the ninja were not fun. 0:47:25.880 --> 0:47:29.759 They were synonymous with trouble and unrest again, you know, 0:47:29.960 --> 0:47:32.280 coming back to the idea of shanobi as an adjective 0:47:32.280 --> 0:47:35.719 as well. And it was only later, during the comparable 0:47:35.760 --> 0:47:38.680 peace and stability of say the Edo period sixteen oh 0:47:38.719 --> 0:47:42.239 three through eighteen sixty eight, that new generations had the 0:47:42.320 --> 0:47:45.719 luxury of turning and looking back to the horrors of 0:47:45.760 --> 0:47:49.320 the past to spin out new tales of their stealthy 0:47:49.360 --> 0:47:52.080 exploits for entertainment purposes. 0:47:52.560 --> 0:47:55.000 Well, I think maybe we are out of time for 0:47:55.080 --> 0:47:56.960 part one, but there's a lot more to say about 0:47:57.000 --> 0:48:02.080 the ninja, trying to unravel the historical complexities, the differences 0:48:02.160 --> 0:48:04.960 between what we know and what is more likely some 0:48:05.080 --> 0:48:09.719 kind of historical fiction or invented tradition untangling those differences, 0:48:10.120 --> 0:48:12.520 as well as getting into some of the great anecdotes 0:48:12.520 --> 0:48:17.279 and stories about historical alleged historical Ninja, as well as 0:48:17.320 --> 0:48:19.440 maybe some of the science of their tools and tricks. 0:48:19.680 --> 0:48:22.040 Yeah, I think we can definitely spin off some ninja 0:48:22.120 --> 0:48:26.359 science in a subsequent episode, So excited to get into 0:48:26.400 --> 0:48:28.120 that later on. But we have a lot more to 0:48:28.160 --> 0:48:35.440 cover various named ninjas of history and legend worth talking 0:48:35.480 --> 0:48:39.520 about some more about just how you know this interwoven 0:48:39.600 --> 0:48:43.400 idea of the ninja comes to fruition and so forth. 0:48:43.640 --> 0:48:45.879 So keep on the lookout for that. By the way, 0:48:45.920 --> 0:48:48.840 that book that I mentioned by Yoda and Alt Ninja Attack, 0:48:49.360 --> 0:48:51.680 this is one of three books that they put out. 0:48:52.000 --> 0:48:55.040 The other two are on Yo Kai and ury. If 0:48:55.040 --> 0:48:56.560 you look these up, you're going to notice that it 0:48:56.560 --> 0:48:59.520 has some very flashy, fun illustrations on the cover. I 0:48:59.560 --> 0:49:04.040 believe that the illustrator is Utaka Kondo, and it has 0:49:04.080 --> 0:49:07.640 like a very fun manga look to everything. Uh. But 0:49:07.640 --> 0:49:11.520 but these are very informative, very well cited texts. 0:49:12.080 --> 0:49:12.160 Uh. 0:49:12.320 --> 0:49:14.400 I highly recommend them. They're a lot of fun. That 0:49:14.560 --> 0:49:17.839 the Yokai book I read with my son, We really 0:49:17.840 --> 0:49:20.480 got into that one. H And yeah, you'll learn a 0:49:20.480 --> 0:49:23.560 lot about Japanese culture and history. So anyway, we're going 0:49:23.640 --> 0:49:25.640 to go and close out here, but write in. We'd 0:49:25.680 --> 0:49:27.120 love to hear from you if you have any thoughts 0:49:27.120 --> 0:49:30.960 on anything we discussed here, including your first exposures to 0:49:31.040 --> 0:49:35.040 the wonderful world of the of the pop culture ninja. 0:49:35.160 --> 0:49:37.319 Where did what what? Where was it? What did you see? 0:49:37.360 --> 0:49:39.200 Was it a video game? Was it a TV show? 0:49:39.360 --> 0:49:42.240 Was it a Japanese film? 0:49:42.800 --> 0:49:42.920 Uh? 0:49:43.239 --> 0:49:45.960 We we we want to know. We're very interested in this. 0:49:46.600 --> 0:49:49.440 In the global legend of the Ninja. 0:49:49.000 --> 0:49:52.560 Did anybody out there ever beat Ninja Gaiden? Oh? 0:49:52.640 --> 0:49:54.759 Man, I don't think. I don't think I played that one. 0:49:54.800 --> 0:49:58.360 But that is another huge Ninja video game franchise. 0:49:58.400 --> 0:50:01.160 Of note. We accept your tall tales about how you 0:50:01.200 --> 0:50:03.720 were almost to the last stage but then kept getting 0:50:03.760 --> 0:50:05.960 knocked off the ledge by that thing that spawns over 0:50:06.000 --> 0:50:06.279 and over. 0:50:06.719 --> 0:50:08.839 Now, this is this one that you could actually beat, 0:50:08.840 --> 0:50:10.279 because I know there have been some of the In fact, 0:50:10.320 --> 0:50:12.240 I think there's a teenage mean and Ninja Turtle game 0:50:12.360 --> 0:50:16.480 for like Anys that it was only later that people realize, oh, 0:50:16.520 --> 0:50:21.360 you couldn't actually make some pivotal jump that always nobody 0:50:21.400 --> 0:50:22.319 could actually beat it. 0:50:22.560 --> 0:50:24.880 I don't know. We've talked about this before. Yeah, I 0:50:24.920 --> 0:50:29.319 remember that, but I don't know about Ninja Guide, and 0:50:29.360 --> 0:50:30.680 I just remember it being hard. 0:50:31.680 --> 0:50:33.560 They used to make the game, those games so hard. 0:50:33.719 --> 0:50:35.840 I did not miss it. Some people were nostalgic for 0:50:35.880 --> 0:50:39.200 impossible games. I occasionally play one of these and I'm like, no, 0:50:39.280 --> 0:50:41.239 I want to be able to beat this and move 0:50:41.280 --> 0:50:45.600 on from it. This is not a lifelong struggle I'm 0:50:45.640 --> 0:50:46.279 signing up for. 0:50:46.760 --> 0:50:49.160 Oh yeah, I'm with you there. I don't know. People 0:50:49.160 --> 0:50:51.600 play video games for different reasons, I guess, but if 0:50:51.640 --> 0:50:54.280 I play video game, I'm not looking to test my metal. 0:50:54.440 --> 0:50:56.120 I'm just like, I'm trying to relax. 0:50:56.360 --> 0:50:59.200 Like, yeah, I want to feel like a competent ninja 0:50:59.280 --> 0:51:02.480 in this video game, not an incompetent I didn't sign 0:51:02.560 --> 0:51:03.960 up for a bunch of ninja fails. 0:51:04.160 --> 0:51:06.760 Yeah, well there were a lot of those in that anyway. Okay, 0:51:06.800 --> 0:51:09.799 so I guess we're wrapping up for today, but we'll 0:51:09.800 --> 0:51:13.080 see you next time. A huge thanks as always to 0:51:13.120 --> 0:51:16.799 our excellent audio producer JJ Posway. If you would like 0:51:16.840 --> 0:51:18.759 to get in touch with us with feedback on this 0:51:18.800 --> 0:51:21.280 episode or any other, to suggest a topic for the future, 0:51:21.360 --> 0:51:23.680 or just to say hello, you can email us at 0:51:23.760 --> 0:51:33.480 contact at stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. 0:51:33.520 --> 0:51:36.480 Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For 0:51:36.560 --> 0:51:39.360 more podcasts from My Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 0:51:39.520 --> 0:51:51.200 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.