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Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My

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Speaker 1: name is Joe McCormick. Today we are bringing you an

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Speaker 1: episode from the Vault, an older episode of the show.

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Speaker 1: This is part one of the series that Rob and

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Speaker 1: I did on The Ninja. We started this in July

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Speaker 1: of last year, so this episode originally published July twenty fifth,

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty four. We hope you enjoy.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 3: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name

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Speaker 3: is Robert.

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Speaker 1: Lamb and I am Joe McCormick. And it seems this week, Rob,

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Speaker 1: you've got ninjas on the brain. You have ninjas on

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Speaker 1: the brain, in the brain, coming out of the brain,

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Speaker 1: going in and out in secret. What brought you to

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Speaker 1: the topic of the Ninja for today's episode.

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Speaker 3: Well, I mean, on one level, obviously, I've always been

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Speaker 3: a ninja fan, a big, big fan of the pop

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Speaker 3: cultural ninja as we'll get into, you know, just because

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Speaker 3: by virtue of growing up, when I grew up in

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Speaker 3: the various interests that I have. But then of course,

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Speaker 3: also as I've mentioned the show before, my family and

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Speaker 3: I recently went on a trip to Japan. We got

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Speaker 3: to visit I believe, a couple of historic sites that

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Speaker 3: have ties to the historic ninja, and so I thought, well,

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Speaker 3: now's the time. Let's this is the ideal time to

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Speaker 3: jump into the subject of the ninja, with the acknowledgment

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Speaker 3: that it gets a little complicated in places. It's not

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Speaker 3: as cut and dry as some people might expect it

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Speaker 3: to be. But there's a fascinating weave of fiction and

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Speaker 3: hidden history and also legends and myth totally.

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Speaker 1: But I also hear what you're saying about coming of

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Speaker 1: age in an era where there was just ninja f

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Speaker 1: in like US pop culture.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely, And I think this would be a great

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Speaker 3: place to start and maybe compare notes on sort of

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Speaker 3: our our generational influences regarding the ninja. I'm a little

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Speaker 3: older than you, so I might be exposed to some

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Speaker 3: things earlier that you were not, like the Big Divider,

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Speaker 3: being like teenage mutant ninja turtles. By the time they

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Speaker 3: came around, I was very into them, but I at

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Speaker 3: the time thought that I was too old to be

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Speaker 3: into them. So I had this kind of like should

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Speaker 3: I shouldn't I relationship with the teenage mutant ninja turtles

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Speaker 3: and of course I should have, and I'm glad that

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Speaker 3: I did to the extent I did. But for me,

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Speaker 3: looking back, I would say, like the earliest exposures I

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Speaker 3: had to ninja media in the US, I would say, certainly,

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Speaker 3: you have the G I Joe ninja characters storm Shadow

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Speaker 3: and Snake Eyes. One wore black and was you know, goodness,

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Speaker 3: I can't remember which one was the good cart back.

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Speaker 3: I think maybe the good guy war black and the

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Speaker 3: bad guy wore white, which even at the time was

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Speaker 3: like stuck stuck out as stuck out, as being a

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Speaker 3: little unbelievable because even as a kid, you know that

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Speaker 3: a ninja is supposed to move through the shadows. Why

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Speaker 3: is this ninja wearing all white? It seems like he's

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Speaker 3: made some style choices that may backfire on him later on.

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Speaker 1: I was just looking up to see if Snake Eyes

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Speaker 1: was one of the G I. Joe action figures I had,

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Speaker 1: and I think it was.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. I definitely had one or both of these guys,

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Speaker 3: and they would go on all sorts of you know,

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Speaker 3: ninja related adventures with the other action figures. Inevitably, a

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Speaker 3: small screwdriver would become involved, and GIA Joe Man would be.

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Speaker 1: Dismembered, swapping heads and stuff. Yeah, yeah, well I think

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Speaker 1: I had some of the same main obviously teenage mean

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Speaker 1: ninja turtles. I fortunately, I think when I first came

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Speaker 1: to them, did not have to deal with the internal

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Speaker 1: term oil of thinking I was too old for them.

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Speaker 1: That does that sounds rough.

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Speaker 3: But I don't know rough is the right way to

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Speaker 3: describe it. But you know, there is it is that

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Speaker 3: that conundrum if the peer pressure is there to make

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Speaker 3: you feel like you need to get in a hurry

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Speaker 3: to grow up, but you really are not ready to

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Speaker 3: put aside things like ninja turtles. You know, at the

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Speaker 3: time it may feel like a conundrum, but you know,

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Speaker 3: ninja turtles are awesome.

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Speaker 1: Yes, But there was also I know what you're saying,

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Speaker 1: in that it was not just a craze in say,

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Speaker 1: adult focused media in the US in the nineteen eighties,

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Speaker 1: though there was that, and we can talk about some examples,

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Speaker 1: but there was a very kid friendly version of the

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Speaker 1: ninja archetype that showed up in a lot of kid

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Speaker 1: focused movies, like, for example, the Three Ninjas series.

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Speaker 3: I don't think I ever saw any of these, but

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Speaker 3: these were like kid ninjas. This was maybe this was

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Speaker 3: Power Ranger inspired to a certain extent.

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Speaker 1: Possibly, I think I only ever saw the first of

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Speaker 1: these movies, never made it to Three Ninjas High Noon

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Speaker 1: at Mega Mountain, but I don't remember that much about it.

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Speaker 1: I think there are three brothers and there kids who

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Speaker 1: are learning the ways of the ninja, and some like

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Speaker 1: robbers come into their house like Home Alone style or something,

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Speaker 1: and they use ninja ninja techniques on them.

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Speaker 3: What could be all bad if Victor Wong, isn't it right? Yeah,

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Speaker 3: looking back on ninja movies that I watched, I also

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Speaker 3: think a major early influence was that I must have

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Speaker 3: seen this in my uncle's house. There were sometimes movies

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Speaker 3: playing like RoboCop that I ended up watching way too early,

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Speaker 3: and I do specifically remember watching at least a big

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Speaker 3: chunk of the nineteen eighty one Manaham Golan directed ninja

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Speaker 3: movie that starred Franco Niro, I believe as a ninja

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Speaker 3: titled Enter the Ninja, and I remember it like horrifying

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Speaker 3: and enthralling me to varying degrees because you had some,

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Speaker 3: you know, a fair amount of like Ninja mayhem going on,

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Speaker 3: and then also some rather grotesque moments that I probably

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Speaker 3: shouldn't have seen it at early age.

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Speaker 1: I think that's like a hyper violent movie, isn't it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I remember it being hyper violent, But I

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Speaker 3: also have not rewatched it since I was a kid,

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Speaker 3: so I don't know what was actually violent and what

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Speaker 3: was maybe just ridiculous and a little like unbelievably gory,

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Speaker 3: or if it like holds up as an actual gore fest. Oh.

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Speaker 1: Actually, as far as cartoonified movie Ninjas go, I recently

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Speaker 1: before I knew you were gonna want to talk about

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Speaker 1: this on the show, just like last week with my

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Speaker 1: friend Ben, I watched a movie called Ninja three The Domination,

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Speaker 1: which is a sequel to Enter the Ninja's.

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Speaker 3: Right, this is like the third one in that the

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Speaker 3: Cannon Films Ninja series.

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Speaker 1: Right, that's right. So this entry is about an La

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Speaker 1: aerobics instructor who gets possessed by the ghost of a

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Speaker 1: Ninja hit man who wants revenge against the police who

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Speaker 1: put a stop to his Ninja rampage on a golf course,

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Speaker 1: which took place on a golf course in which he

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Speaker 1: like single handedly destroys a helicopter and a bunch of

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Speaker 1: other stuff. And then the aerobics instructor is possessed by

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Speaker 1: the ghost of the evil Ninja and then falls in

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Speaker 1: love with one of the cops on the Ninja Spirits

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Speaker 1: Naughty List, so uh oh, and then she has to

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Speaker 1: get the ghost purged out of her body by a

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Speaker 1: mystical priest or actually I think maybe that the attempt

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Speaker 1: to do that fails. But it's sort of a cross between.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's a sequel to Enter the Ninja, so

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Speaker 1: it's got that kind of sleazy nineteen eighties La van

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Speaker 1: Halen guitar lick ninja movie feeling, but then it's also

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Speaker 1: got elements of The Exorcist, and then it's also a

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Speaker 1: cop movie and also just aerobics, you know, dance aerobics

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Speaker 1: all over the place.

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Speaker 3: I am on board for all of that. That sounds amazing.

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Speaker 3: We might have to consider that for Weird House, in

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Speaker 3: part because on Weird House Cinema we have talked about

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Speaker 3: the movie blood Beat in the past, which has a

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Speaker 3: ghost samurai. So it seems fitting we should have a

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Speaker 3: film at some point that has a ghost ninja.

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Speaker 1: OF's ghost ninja possession.

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Speaker 3: Now, obviously there are tons of additional Western ninja properties

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Speaker 3: we could side here. There's so much kid stuff. Certainly

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Speaker 3: video games are big, some being imports, like I do

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Speaker 3: remember the Shanobi Arcade game, though I don't know how much.

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Speaker 3: I don't know how how strong the ninja vibes are

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Speaker 3: in that one. But then eventually you get things like

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Speaker 3: Mortal Kombat, which has you know, some version of Ninja's

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Speaker 3: in them, often of course with all sorts of crazy

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Speaker 3: colors that again don't make sense if you're if you're

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Speaker 3: engaging with the idea of ninja as a stealth operative.

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Speaker 3: But if you're engaging within the idea of a ninja

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Speaker 3: as a user of magic, then as we'll get into,

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Speaker 3: then I guess Mortal Kombat isn't too unbelievable. And then

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Speaker 3: during junior high, probably like early junior high, I ended

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Speaker 3: up picking up Showgun and reading it, and there was

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Speaker 3: a lot I didn't understand at the time. But then

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Speaker 3: there's like a lot of just you know, ideas about

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Speaker 3: Japanese history in Japanese culture that are loaded in that volume.

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Speaker 3: And it does contain a very memorable section that involves

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Speaker 3: the Shinobi, the ninja. So we'll come back to that,

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Speaker 3: because as it turns out, the novel Showgun has a

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Speaker 3: very important influence on the idea and the popularity of

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Speaker 3: the ninja outside Japan.

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Speaker 1: Well, regarding the idea of the ninja outside of Japan

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Speaker 1: and the word ninja as it enters sort of the

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Speaker 1: English lexicon, I came across a really interesting fact in

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Speaker 1: a book that I'm going to reference a bunch of

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Speaker 1: times in this series. It's been one of my main

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Speaker 1: sources here by a British historian named Stephen Turnbull, called

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Speaker 1: Ninja Unmasking the Myth. This is one of the best

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Speaker 1: looking historical books and investigating the history of the concept

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Speaker 1: of the ninja in the English language. And what Turnbull

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Speaker 1: says that really shocked me is that the word ninja

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Speaker 1: with its current romanized spelling did not appear in any

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Speaker 1: Japanese English dictionary until the year nineteen seventy four, and

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Speaker 1: there were plenty of Japanese English dictionaries before this, going

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Speaker 1: back to the nineteenth century. Before the mid twentieth century,

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Speaker 1: the favored Japanese pronunciation for the same concept the same

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Speaker 1: kanji idiographs was shinobi mono or shinobi no mono. But

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Speaker 1: there's an alternate pronunciation of the same idiographs nin ninsha

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Speaker 1: or ninja, which became the dominant way of expressing the

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Speaker 1: idea out loud in English in English contexts, at least,

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Speaker 1: I guess beginning in the somewhere in the mid twentieth

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Speaker 1: century or the nineteen seventies or so, but I don't know.

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Speaker 1: It's just surprisingly late to me. I've read in a

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Speaker 1: few sources that consciousness of the idea of the shinobi

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Speaker 1: or ninja in English speaking cultures traces in large part

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Speaker 1: to the nineteen sixty seven James Bond movie You Only

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Speaker 1: Live Twice, which is pretty fun, does have great ninja action,

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Speaker 1: and it is also wildly racially and culturally problematic, but

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Speaker 1: apparently was a big sort of funnel of the idea

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Speaker 1: of the ninja or shanobi into the international market.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, You Only Live Twice definitely a Bond film I

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Speaker 3: saw as a kid, and I was surprised to learn

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Speaker 3: of its historical importance to this topic. It's not a

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Speaker 3: film that has ever stuck in my mind as being like, oh,

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Speaker 3: this this is important, this is bringing cultures together, anything

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Speaker 3: like that.

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Speaker 1: Oh, but in some ways it kind of is. I mean, like,

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Speaker 1: you know, you can there's a lot to criticize there

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Speaker 1: but also there are some great scenes of like the

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Speaker 1: ninja training scene where they're like out there practicing all

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Speaker 1: their skills and techniques on the target dummies. It's great.

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Speaker 3: So one of my main sources for this is an

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Speaker 3: excellent and well sided book titled Ninja Attack True Tales

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Speaker 3: of Assassin, Samurai and Outlaws Outlaws by Heroko Yoda and

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Speaker 3: Matt Alt. Matt altype referenced on the show before for

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Speaker 3: some of his other writings about Japanese culture in Japanese

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Speaker 3: Popular Culture, and in this book they point out as

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Speaker 3: well that You Only Live Twice was the first ninja

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Speaker 3: screen appearance in international cinema. They write that while You

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Speaker 3: Only Live Twice is the first international film concerning ninja,

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Speaker 3: it was directly influenced by the nineteen sixty five film Shinobio,

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Speaker 3: which was in turn inspired by the success of the

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Speaker 3: various ninja short stories of Futaro Yamada, who lived nineteen

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Speaker 3: twenty two through two thousand and one. This is a

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Speaker 3: writer who is discovered by Atogawa Rampo, who we've talked

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Speaker 3: about in Weird House Cinema because his writings have been

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Speaker 3: adapted to the screen numerous times.

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Speaker 1: So how did ninjas end up in James Bond.

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Speaker 3: Well, it involves the screenwriter, who was, of course Roald Dahl,

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Speaker 3: who lived nineteen sixteen through nineteen ninety. You know, we

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Speaker 3: often associate with Willie Wonk in The Chocolate Factory and

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Speaker 3: various other works, but he was a screenwriter on You

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Speaker 3: Only Live Twice and apparently went on a research trip

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Speaker 3: to Japan to prepare for this. And while in Japan

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Speaker 3: he watched the movie in question, that nineteen sixty five

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Speaker 3: ninja film, and realized, well, this is what the screenplay needs,

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Speaker 3: we need ninja and ninja were added. Good choice, Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 3: and again you know, popular, big budget film that is

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Speaker 3: exactly the kind of thing that will propel a new

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Speaker 3: concept into the public mindset. Now, this book gets into

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Speaker 3: the overall sort of tangled web of pop culture ninjas

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Speaker 3: and in and out of Japan, going, you know, all

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Speaker 3: the way back to things like a seventeen seventy eight

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Speaker 3: kabuki play that involves ninja. And they actually have a

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Speaker 3: lovely flow chart that includes everything from Ninja scroll to

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Speaker 3: kill Bill. I'll come back to or of what they

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Speaker 3: have to say about ninja, popular culture and ninja fiction

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Speaker 3: here in a.

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Speaker 1: Bit now, I think maybe we should do a rundown

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Speaker 1: of some of the common characteristics of the twentieth century

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Speaker 1: movie Ninja, the international market movie Ninja. So usually this

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Speaker 1: ninja is a stealthy assassin, dressed head to toe in

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Speaker 1: cloth coverings, usually black cloths or a black costume, with

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Speaker 1: a mask that covers most of the face except maybe

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Speaker 1: like an opening for the eyes or some other kind

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Speaker 1: of gap in the face covering, but otherwise head to

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Speaker 1: toe black cloth.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's just the iconic idea of a ninja. You

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Speaker 3: can't say the word ninja without picturing that on some level.

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Speaker 1: What does the ninja do?

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Speaker 3: Well?

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Speaker 1: The ninja is a master of martial arts combat with

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Speaker 1: a batman style belt of special tools and weapons, often

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Speaker 1: including a grappling hook for climbing, smoke bombs to hide

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Speaker 1: an escape, and pointed metal throwing stars that can be

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Speaker 1: thrown with deadly accuracy.

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Speaker 3: Right along with of course the katana for some sword play,

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Speaker 3: maybe various other little shorter sword, yeah, shorter swords and

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Speaker 3: various you know, various gadgets has required, generally all related

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Speaker 3: to stell the assassination.

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Speaker 1: They are often depicted as capable of almost superhuman acrobatics

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Speaker 1: bordering on the ability to fly. And I think it's

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Speaker 1: interesting Turnbull actually points this out in his book that

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Speaker 1: it is often within settings that are taken as otherwise realistic,

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Speaker 1: or within fictional settings where magic is not otherwise assumed

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Speaker 1: to exist, that ninja have these apparently supernatural abilities. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's not a full fantasy world, it's like realistic setting,

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Speaker 1: but the ninjas can basically fly.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, we'll get into more on that in a bit.

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Speaker 3: I'd say other aspects of the pop culture ninja is

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Speaker 3: that the ninja there's no like Ninja by night, blank

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Speaker 3: by day. Ninja are generally depicted as being like fanatics,

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Speaker 3: as being completely devoted to their art of stealth and assassination,

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Speaker 3: and in generally and oftentimes they're you know, villains and

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Speaker 3: sometimes secondary villains and a lot of properties, So there's

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Speaker 3: not a lot of effort given to develop their characters

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Speaker 3: outside of the adversary that they're presented as.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, sometimes they're presented as members of a sort of

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Speaker 1: secret international brotherhood of some kind that they belong to

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Speaker 1: some corpus or body of similarly trained people. In some cases,

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Speaker 1: I do think there are sort of alter ego, you know,

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Speaker 1: Clark Kent Superman ninja's. In fact, I think there is

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Speaker 1: one in Ninja three, the Domination. Oh okay, so I

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Speaker 1: think it pops up from time to time, but I

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Speaker 1: agree that most of the time, in like American movies,

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Speaker 1: it's as if all they ever do is like sneak

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Speaker 1: around and do stealth missions.

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Speaker 3: Right, and have great, great eyes. We really want to

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Speaker 3: have really expressive eyes in your cinematic ninja's, you know,

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Speaker 3: because that's all you're going to see of the actor

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Speaker 3: at least, and when they're in Ninja.

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Speaker 1: Mold brows that narrow dramatically. Yeah. There's one more thing

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Speaker 1: I came across in Turnbull that I really liked regarding

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Speaker 1: like the ninja's obscure tools and techniques. There's one that

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Speaker 1: is from a novel by Yamata Futaro, who you mentioned

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Speaker 1: a minute ago is writing these influential ninja stories and

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Speaker 1: novels in the nineteen fifties. This is from a nineteen

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Speaker 1: fifty eight novel called Coca Ninpocho, which Turnbull says is

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Speaker 1: basically a mostly accurate historical setting, but the ninjas within

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Speaker 1: the story can turn their hair into porcupine quills which

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Speaker 1: they like shoot off and launch as weapons, so like

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Speaker 1: weaponized hair.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, the dark magic of the ninja. Now, I

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Speaker 3: want to come back to Showgun for a second here. Showgun,

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Speaker 3: of course, it was a nineteen seventy five novel. There

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Speaker 3: is a subsequent TV minis series about it based on it,

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Speaker 3: and then there's been a more recent twenty twenty four

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Speaker 3: adaptation of Showgun that is quite excellent. I loved it.

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Speaker 3: My wife and I loved it. Everyone I've talked to

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Speaker 3: has really enjoyed it, and they went to great pains

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Speaker 3: with this adaptation to sort of make sure that it

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Speaker 3: was grounded as properly as they could in history and

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Speaker 3: in Japanese culture. Though James Colovell's Showgun is like an

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Speaker 3: adaptation of history, I guess you would say it is

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Speaker 3: a work of fiction based on history, written by an

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Speaker 3: outsider who was interested in these things. But there is,

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Speaker 3: of course this pivotal sequence in the novel and in

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Speaker 3: adaptations that involved the ninja, and it has been argued

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Speaker 3: that Clavel introduce the concept of ninja into the West.

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Speaker 3: I've also read it argue that, like for a while,

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Speaker 3: this was a very successful novel, A lot of people

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Speaker 3: read it like a lot of what many Westerners knew

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Speaker 3: about about Japanese history and Japanese culture was based on

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Speaker 3: this book. You know, It's like it was. It kind

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Speaker 3: of had the same role as You Only Live Twice

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Speaker 3: in this regard, a very popular work of media that

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Speaker 3: was for many people their their first or primary exposure

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Speaker 3: to this different culture and different time period. But again,

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Speaker 3: the novels based on history, it's not one hundred percent accurate.

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Speaker 3: I think the recent TV series does a pretty good

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Speaker 3: job of updating everything as far as I understand it,

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Speaker 3: And so the ninja or shinobi that we see in

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Speaker 3: it that they seem like they seem to have done

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Speaker 3: what they could to sort of ground it more properly.

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Speaker 3: Though I think they're still sort of reflecting the trappings

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Speaker 3: of the ninja's pop culture glow. So they're not all

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Speaker 3: dressed in black, and they're certainly not wearing white or

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Speaker 3: you know, bright moral on back colors, but they are

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Speaker 3: more recognizable as pop culture ninjas. Quick note on the

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Speaker 3: word ninja plural and singular is ninja, But I am

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Speaker 3: inevitably going to keep saying ninja's from time to time.

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Speaker 3: So my apologies.

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Speaker 1: I've been thinking about that exact thing. I realized, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's ninja is plural, But I bet I've already said

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Speaker 1: ninja's I can't stop myself. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: But on the Showgun issue, I turned to editor Henry

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Speaker 3: Smith's book Learning from Showgun, Japanese History in Western Fantasy.

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Speaker 3: This is put out as part of the program in

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Speaker 3: Asian Studies at the University of California, Santa Barbara. In

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Speaker 3: this the editor and the authors here point out that

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Speaker 3: ninjas in the novel Showgun Quote reflect the romanticization of

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Speaker 3: the ninja in modern Japanese popular entertainment. So the idea

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Speaker 3: here that what we see in the novel, and inevitably

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Speaker 3: in any adaptation, we see the ninja as this violent

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Speaker 3: death cult of fanatical assassins. And as we'll be discussing,

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Speaker 3: there's some truth to that, to their role in assassination

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Speaker 3: and stealth and even military endeavors. But there's a lot

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Speaker 3: more of the myth in the legend here in this

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Speaker 3: usage of the ninja than anything.

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Speaker 1: Else, and the overtaking of historical fact by sort of

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Speaker 1: myth and storytelling and romanticization of the ninja, that that

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Speaker 1: tradition that goes way back. Actually, it's not just a

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Speaker 1: twentieth century thing.

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Speaker 3: And it's not just a Western appropriation of it or

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Speaker 3: anything like that. Like it would be easier to sort

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Speaker 3: of sum it all up if it were like, well,

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Speaker 3: there's the Japanese reality of what ninjas were, and then

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Speaker 3: westerner's got a hold of it, and of course they

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Speaker 3: transformed it. There is some Western transformation of it involved,

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Speaker 3: but for the most part, this transformation of the historic

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Speaker 3: ninja into the pop cultural trope of the ninja, this

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Speaker 3: all occurred Withinese popular culture, well in advance of anything

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Speaker 3: James Bond got up to.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, one thing I think we should establish early and

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Speaker 1: this is this is something that is a major theme

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Speaker 1: of this book by Turnbull that I've been referencing, is

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Speaker 1: that apparently a huge amount of what is commonly said

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Speaker 1: about the ninja, even in apparently authoritative books and museums

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Speaker 1: and other historical sources, is based on text traditions that

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Speaker 1: do not necessarily reflect what really happened in history. So

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Speaker 1: there is sort of a ninja tradition, or maybe to

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Speaker 1: be more phonetically accurate, a shanobi tradition that is Japanese

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Speaker 1: in origin and does in many ways go back hundreds

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Speaker 1: of years, but still may not be based on real

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Speaker 1: figures and practices in history that the term shinobi originally

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Speaker 1: referred to.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, Like in the past, I've heard people be

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Speaker 3: as firm as to say the ninja didn't really exist.

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Speaker 3: The ninja are men, And I think you could basically

399
00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:04,359
Speaker 3: say that that's a true statement to some degree, Like

400
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Speaker 3: the ninja as we see them in popular culture didn't

401
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Speaker 3: really exist, but they are based on a thing that did.

402
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Speaker 3: And it's fun to get into that and try and

403
00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:21,080
Speaker 3: peace apart like what was real, what was probably real?

404
00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:24,240
Speaker 3: What isn't an embellishment and what does that embellishment mean?

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Speaker 3: In the book by Yoda and All, they point out that,

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Speaker 3: like basically the term ninja or even shnobi, we're dealing

407
00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:36,199
Speaker 3: with a colloquial term that can be translated to things like,

408
00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:39,280
Speaker 3: you know, a clandestine person or one who is invisible.

409
00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:43,040
Speaker 3: But historically they would have been known by a whole

410
00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:47,240
Speaker 3: bunch of different colloquial terms, including, but not limited to

411
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Speaker 3: a few of these examples. So there's ninjutsu suska, which

412
00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:56,240
Speaker 3: means like a practitioner of ninjutsu, the art of stealth.

413
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Speaker 3: There's one called on Mitsu, which would have meant like

414
00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:03,400
Speaker 3: the secret service. And then there are a couple here

415
00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:05,720
Speaker 3: I want to include that I think are neat because

416
00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:08,880
Speaker 3: they kind of hint at some of the other like

417
00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:12,360
Speaker 3: non stereotypical modern ninja things they would have been up to.

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Speaker 3: There's one that they would have translated to the shortcutters,

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Speaker 3: which I rather like. You know, it's like, you have

420
00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:26,320
Speaker 3: some sort of a political, military, or social problem and

421
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Speaker 3: traditional honorable means of dealing with those problems are not achievable,

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Speaker 3: So what do you need. You need a shortcut, and

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Speaker 3: that's why you seek out the shortcutters.

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Speaker 1: That's very cool.

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Speaker 3: There's another one that I believe is Okami, that I've

426
00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:45,040
Speaker 3: seen translated as the silent watchers, And I think that's

427
00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:49,000
Speaker 3: also important here because while, yeah, while the while while

428
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Speaker 3: the historic ninjas would have involved themselves or been hired

429
00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:57,480
Speaker 3: to deal in military and assassination type scenarios, they also

430
00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:03,000
Speaker 3: might have been involved in entirely non violent affairs as well,

431
00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:05,720
Speaker 3: things that we might typically describe more as like straight

432
00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:07,639
Speaker 3: up spy and espionage business.

433
00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:11,360
Speaker 1: And often I think I've seen the word ukami translated

434
00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:14,959
Speaker 1: as spy. Yeah, and that leads back to how I

435
00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:18,760
Speaker 1: think many of the earliest understandings of the ninja or

436
00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:24,160
Speaker 1: shanobi have to do with spying and infiltration in warfare,

437
00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:29,200
Speaker 1: and so to situate the classical understanding of the ninja

438
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:32,800
Speaker 1: within a conceptual context, I wanted to talk briefly about

439
00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:37,600
Speaker 1: the precedent of using spies and infiltrators in war. And

440
00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:40,960
Speaker 1: Turnbull does this by making reference in his book to

441
00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:44,760
Speaker 1: the classic Chinese text The Art of War by Sun Zoo,

442
00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:48,000
Speaker 1: or Turnbull calls him sun z I guess they're different

443
00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:51,040
Speaker 1: ways of pronouncing the name, but I think I'm gonna

444
00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:54,240
Speaker 1: say sun Zoo because that's more familiar to me. So

445
00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:57,439
Speaker 1: this is a classic Chinese text, usually dated to the

446
00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:01,000
Speaker 1: fifth century BCE. Apparently, any of the authors of the

447
00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:04,879
Speaker 1: Tokugawa period who wrote the Tales of the Shinobi establishing

448
00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:07,520
Speaker 1: a lot of this lore would have been very familiar

449
00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:09,800
Speaker 1: with Sunzu in the Art of War and other sort

450
00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:14,679
Speaker 1: of warfare manuals of this type. And apparently Sunzu talks

451
00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:18,720
Speaker 1: about the concept of a secret agent, referring to it

452
00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:23,400
Speaker 1: with the Chinese character khan, which means the space between

453
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:27,800
Speaker 1: two objects or discord. So This refers to the use

454
00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:32,600
Speaker 1: of secret agents to undermine alliances and sow division within

455
00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:36,800
Speaker 1: within societies or within within armies. And Sunsu actually sort

456
00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:40,159
Speaker 1: of lays out a taxonomy of five different kinds of

457
00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:43,560
Speaker 1: secret agents. I thought this was interesting. So first of all,

458
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:48,600
Speaker 1: you've got your incan or native agents. These are villagers

459
00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:51,720
Speaker 1: of an enemy's province or country. He says, you can't

460
00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:55,000
Speaker 1: really expect them to do like risky work or carry

461
00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:58,439
Speaker 1: out difficult missions, so they are mainly useful for just

462
00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:02,720
Speaker 1: gathering general information about the enemy's disposition, maybe like where

463
00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:05,439
Speaker 1: the enemy is or the direction of travel and so forth.

464
00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:10,080
Speaker 1: Then after that you've got nikon, which are inside agents.

465
00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:14,400
Speaker 1: These are officials of the enemy government drafted to your

466
00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:18,680
Speaker 1: side by bribes or pay. These agents can supply much

467
00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:22,680
Speaker 1: better quality information, and they are especially useful for creating

468
00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:26,200
Speaker 1: discord within enemy ranks. And if you want to identify

469
00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:29,200
Speaker 1: these people, you can look for officials within the enemy

470
00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:32,240
Speaker 1: government who have been slighted in some way, like maybe

471
00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:37,600
Speaker 1: being insulted or passed over for promotion. Find someone who

472
00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:41,200
Speaker 1: has power who thinks that your enemy has treated them unfairly.

473
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:46,840
Speaker 1: After that you've got yukon or friendly agents. This apparently

474
00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:50,560
Speaker 1: refers to double agents. So the enemy has spies as well.

475
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:53,520
Speaker 1: You are if you want a double agent, you can

476
00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:57,560
Speaker 1: recruit the enemy's spy to actually spy for you or

477
00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:01,240
Speaker 1: to feed false information to their masters. Classic double agents

478
00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:04,400
Speaker 1: set up. YEA. Then there's one called Chikhan, which means

479
00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:08,440
Speaker 1: dead agents. This one is interesting and pretty cold. It's

480
00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:13,560
Speaker 1: the idea of expendable allies who can unknowingly be given

481
00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:16,920
Speaker 1: false information which they believe to be true, and then

482
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:21,000
Speaker 1: sent deliberately into enemy capture, so when information is extracted

483
00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:24,840
Speaker 1: from them, it will mislead the enemy command. Yeah, that

484
00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:28,280
Speaker 1: is cold. But then finally you get to Chokan, the

485
00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:32,400
Speaker 1: last of the five, who are called living agents, and

486
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:36,120
Speaker 1: what Turnbull says about them is the following quote. They

487
00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:40,280
Speaker 1: go boldly into enemy territory and return with valuable information.

488
00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:44,040
Speaker 1: For this purpose, men who are pre eminent in intelligence

489
00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:47,560
Speaker 1: are selected. They have the ability to withstand great hardship

490
00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:50,720
Speaker 1: and have the social skills to gain access to those

491
00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:53,000
Speaker 1: of the enemy who are closest to the seat of power.

492
00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:56,960
Speaker 1: These are the classic spies envisaged by the Ninja myth.

493
00:28:57,840 --> 00:28:59,920
Speaker 1: So to be clear, these are not being called nin

494
00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:02,760
Speaker 1: or anything in this context. This is a much earlier work,

495
00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:06,840
Speaker 1: but it's establishing this sort of principle within warfare and

496
00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:10,360
Speaker 1: within the taxonomy of spies and secret agents, that there's

497
00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:13,840
Speaker 1: already this idea of this like James Bond spy kind

498
00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:17,280
Speaker 1: of figure, or this ninja, this person who is a

499
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:20,920
Speaker 1: who is an agent, who can strike out on their own,

500
00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:25,640
Speaker 1: who can act and has some kind of like has capability,

501
00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:29,560
Speaker 1: has powers, and they can go into hostile territory and

502
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:34,320
Speaker 1: carry out a mission to gather information or sow discord

503
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:35,520
Speaker 1: or do whatever is needed.

504
00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:37,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, And of course, in all of this, sun Zoo

505
00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:42,440
Speaker 3: is codifying realities that already existed in warfare. One thing

506
00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:43,920
Speaker 3: that Yoda and all point out is you can look

507
00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:48,200
Speaker 3: into various old texts and some ancient texts and you

508
00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:51,200
Speaker 3: can see allusions to this kind of spycraft. They are

509
00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:55,840
Speaker 3: apparently examples from the Old Testament that also involve, you know,

510
00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:59,280
Speaker 3: something you could interpret us as spy work and espionage,

511
00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:01,440
Speaker 3: like you go out on this mission, do this thing,

512
00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:06,120
Speaker 3: you know, so, you know, again codifying realities that were

513
00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:10,840
Speaker 3: already present, but meaningfully doing so meaningfully and in a

514
00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:14,760
Speaker 3: very influential way. That with the ripples are going to spread,

515
00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:19,480
Speaker 3: of course, out of China, through Japan and ultimately globally.

516
00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:21,400
Speaker 1: I do think it's kind of interesting that if you

517
00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:24,760
Speaker 1: think beyond the concept of just the ninja and to

518
00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:29,960
Speaker 1: the broader idea of like any character in fiction who

519
00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:34,160
Speaker 1: is depicted as having like peak abilities in almost every domain,

520
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:37,560
Speaker 1: like they know everything, they're the smartest, they speak all

521
00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:41,320
Speaker 1: these languages, they're you know, unbeatable in hand to hand combat.

522
00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:46,360
Speaker 1: I would say the most common profession this character has

523
00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:48,840
Speaker 1: is spy. Isn't that kind of interesting?

524
00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:52,000
Speaker 3: It is interesting? Yeah, I mean on one level, I

525
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:57,120
Speaker 3: think it's a realization of the intense level of danger

526
00:30:57,200 --> 00:30:59,840
Speaker 3: that individuals like this would put themselves in. Like even

527
00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:02,960
Speaker 3: if there you know, not involved in an actual like

528
00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:07,880
Speaker 3: ninja movie fight and stealth sequence, you know, it's like

529
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:11,200
Speaker 3: the intense danger of engaging in that level of deception

530
00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:14,680
Speaker 3: and betrayal, you know, like on just like a social

531
00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:18,120
Speaker 3: level and a legal level, like you're in you're engaging

532
00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:21,959
Speaker 3: in a high level of danger. Now, another interesting thing.

533
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:23,720
Speaker 3: We didn't mention this when we talked about the trope

534
00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:26,440
Speaker 3: of the ninja in popular culture, but another thing you

535
00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:30,120
Speaker 3: frequently see you will see examples of ninjas who you know,

536
00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:34,800
Speaker 3: use modern gadgets and or are robots or cyborgs. There's

537
00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:36,080
Speaker 3: a lot of fun to be had there. But a

538
00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:39,760
Speaker 3: lot of times the ninja is depicted as an operative

539
00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:43,840
Speaker 3: even in like a modern or nineteen eighties nineteen ninety setting,

540
00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:49,600
Speaker 3: who depends in large part on traditional even archaic weapons

541
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:53,880
Speaker 3: used with great skill. But like if a ninja needs

542
00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:57,080
Speaker 3: to you know, get past a you know, computer console

543
00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:00,160
Speaker 3: on a security door, you're more likely to see that

544
00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:02,920
Speaker 3: movie Ninja throw a throwing star through it, right, or

545
00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:04,800
Speaker 3: shoot it with a bow and arrow, as opposed to

546
00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:07,800
Speaker 3: get down there and stick in a USB stick or

547
00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:11,200
Speaker 3: start you know, hacking the computer system.

548
00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:13,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, I really have a picture in my mind of

549
00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:16,719
Speaker 1: somebody like chucking a throwing star into a computer and

550
00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:19,560
Speaker 1: like sparks shoot out of it. Yeah, that's that's how

551
00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:20,520
Speaker 1: you get past security.

552
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:25,880
Speaker 3: But an important point that Yoda and altamic about the

553
00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:27,840
Speaker 3: myth of the ninja and the modern idea of the

554
00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:31,560
Speaker 3: ninja versus the historic reality as we understand it is

555
00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:35,640
Speaker 3: that these individuals would not have been picky about like

556
00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:38,280
Speaker 3: what level of technology that they used. In fact, they

557
00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:42,280
Speaker 3: would have used like the latest advancements available such as

558
00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:46,920
Speaker 3: gunpowder for example. So it's it's kind of just a

559
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:51,600
Speaker 3: virtue of us spinning modern tails about an older pop

560
00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:56,280
Speaker 3: cultural idea than anything like. So, yeah, if the Ninja

561
00:32:56,320 --> 00:33:00,480
Speaker 3: had access to James Bond spy gadgets, they use those

562
00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:04,360
Speaker 3: James Bond spy gadgets like they are like any espionage

563
00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:07,000
Speaker 3: operative out there. They'll make use of the best tools

564
00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:08,560
Speaker 3: available to pull off the deed.

565
00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:21,760
Speaker 1: Now, another interesting way of understanding that the ninja character archetype,

566
00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:26,720
Speaker 1: by contrast, is something that the Turnbull highlights in the book,

567
00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:31,200
Speaker 1: which is the idea of the ninja as the quote

568
00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:36,920
Speaker 1: dark antithesis of the samurai, another historical character. Now, again

569
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:40,760
Speaker 1: this is something that is not necessarily a historical reality.

570
00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:44,880
Speaker 1: This is something that is how the ninja archetype is

571
00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:49,880
Speaker 1: reflected within storytelling and tradition, not necessarily historically real, but

572
00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:53,720
Speaker 1: within these traditions you can see that see the contrast here.

573
00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:58,480
Speaker 1: The samurai are warriors who are nobles. The Ninja are

574
00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:02,760
Speaker 1: often represented as commers. The samurai are depicted as loyal

575
00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:07,360
Speaker 1: and honorable, the ninja as treacherous and mercenary. The samurai

576
00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:09,960
Speaker 1: fight their enemy face to face, while the ninja sneak

577
00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:12,160
Speaker 1: up on people, you know that, stab people in the back,

578
00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:16,960
Speaker 1: and as a spy, the ninja must always survive the

579
00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:21,360
Speaker 1: mission at all costs to deliver the gathered intelligence, whereas

580
00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:24,680
Speaker 1: the samurai is very often depicted as dying selflessly in

581
00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:29,200
Speaker 1: battle and maintaining having an honorable death. And so in

582
00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:33,439
Speaker 1: all these ways, within the storytelling tradition, the ninja could

583
00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:37,200
Speaker 1: often be seen as positioned as like the the the

584
00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:40,440
Speaker 1: negative mirror image of the samurai warrior trope.

585
00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:43,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I think that that is key, and it

586
00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:47,080
Speaker 3: does seem to get into some historic realities like, for instance,

587
00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:51,280
Speaker 3: the idea that that apparently ninja would have very often

588
00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:56,800
Speaker 3: been lower born men and women as opposed to warrior

589
00:34:56,840 --> 00:35:01,479
Speaker 3: class individuals. So there is this like the social distinction there.

590
00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:03,480
Speaker 3: But and then also when it comes down to what

591
00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:07,040
Speaker 3: stories are told and celebrated, the stories of the samurai

592
00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:12,000
Speaker 3: were celebrated and told and retold, and legends were told

593
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:16,320
Speaker 3: about them far ahead of anything like this with the ninja.

594
00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:19,720
Speaker 3: The ninja would would have been essentially been the dirty

595
00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:24,520
Speaker 3: tricks department for any feudal lord looking to solve some

596
00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:28,120
Speaker 3: sort of again political, military, or social problem that they

597
00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:33,200
Speaker 3: couldn't otherwise approach, and it was not something that you

598
00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:36,880
Speaker 3: would have talked about in polite society. Like the shanobi

599
00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:40,280
Speaker 3: and the various colloquial terms would have been synonymous with trouble.

600
00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:43,359
Speaker 3: They weren't to be celebrated, even if you prize their

601
00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:47,120
Speaker 3: skills secretly, and in employing them you would have hoped

602
00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:50,600
Speaker 3: to retain plausible deniability over whatever was about to happen.

603
00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:53,800
Speaker 3: In general, we may get into some you know, some

604
00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:58,000
Speaker 3: examples to the contrary, but in general, like this was

605
00:35:58,440 --> 00:35:59,880
Speaker 3: this was the dirty tricks department.

606
00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:02,440
Speaker 1: But yes, to come back to your point, despite the

607
00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:06,520
Speaker 1: later profusion of valorizing tales, you know, often at the

608
00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:11,160
Speaker 1: time people don't feel so excited or proud about I

609
00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:15,200
Speaker 1: don't know, deception in warfare or secretive military activities, even

610
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:17,440
Speaker 1: if they are necessary to winning.

611
00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:21,960
Speaker 3: Sometimes, yeah, better to celebrate the tale of the noble

612
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:26,200
Speaker 3: and victorious samurai than the the shnov that you pay

613
00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:28,600
Speaker 3: to go in and stab somebody in the back. Now,

614
00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:30,560
Speaker 3: I want to add a quick note. I mentioned men

615
00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:34,120
Speaker 3: and women, and on the subject of a female ninja,

616
00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:37,800
Speaker 3: they did apparently exist, though the reality was likely nowhere

617
00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:41,719
Speaker 3: near what image may be summoned in your head here,

618
00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:44,760
Speaker 3: you know, the various pop culture ideas of a female ninja.

619
00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:47,520
Speaker 3: Yoda and all point out that there's no indication that

620
00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:50,319
Speaker 3: any female ninja ever engaged in combat of any kind

621
00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:54,240
Speaker 3: or again that we have no direct evidence or writings

622
00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:57,560
Speaker 3: of that. But female spies at the very least would

623
00:36:57,600 --> 00:37:01,319
Speaker 3: have been able to move through parts of society that

624
00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:06,040
Speaker 3: would have been less accessible or inaccessible to men, or

625
00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:09,480
Speaker 3: move in ways that men would easily overlook. They might

626
00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:14,359
Speaker 3: disguise themselves as entertainers, as prostitutes, as household staff, and

627
00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:19,480
Speaker 3: a particular note, as transient Mico holy women. So these

628
00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:23,160
Speaker 3: would have been the modern version is they tend to

629
00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:25,920
Speaker 3: shinto shrines and so forth. But this would have been

630
00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:28,680
Speaker 3: like a loose knit order, so not a lot of

631
00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:30,719
Speaker 3: like you know, you can't like check the papers as

632
00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:34,560
Speaker 3: much of these individuals. And they would have traveled around.

633
00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:39,280
Speaker 3: So it's a great cover story for any female ninjas,

634
00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:42,279
Speaker 3: female spies that would have been utilized. It would have

635
00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:45,600
Speaker 3: been an ideal cover. And these were sometimes referred to

636
00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:50,480
Speaker 3: as the kno ichi, but very little is known about them.

637
00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:53,239
Speaker 3: The use of female spies may have been considered even

638
00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:58,440
Speaker 3: more taboo than just using spies or shnovi in general.

639
00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:02,280
Speaker 3: And we really only have legends about a single named

640
00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:05,560
Speaker 3: female ninja. This would have been the sixteenth century figure

641
00:38:06,239 --> 00:38:10,440
Speaker 3: Mochizuki chi Yojo. It is thought that she was a

642
00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:13,640
Speaker 3: real person, but we don't even know the like one

643
00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:18,640
Speaker 3: correct pronunciation of her name. But but but still it

644
00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:21,440
Speaker 3: was probably a real person based on what I've been reading.

645
00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:23,759
Speaker 3: But anyway, all of this makes sense because again, this

646
00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:25,920
Speaker 3: is about not playing by the rules. This is about

647
00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:29,719
Speaker 3: breaking the rules, uh, doing the taboo thing in order

648
00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:34,960
Speaker 3: to achieve your military political goals. And so in that case,

649
00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:37,600
Speaker 3: you know, all cards are on the table there.

650
00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:41,279
Speaker 1: Rob So you found something about like the earliest references

651
00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:43,920
Speaker 1: to ninjas in their all black costume.

652
00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:48,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is this was really interesting because you know,

653
00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:50,640
Speaker 3: the iconic vision of the of the ninja, as we've

654
00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:54,600
Speaker 3: been discussing, is that of the ninja and all black,

655
00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:57,880
Speaker 3: you know, blending into the shadows, creeping along the rooftops

656
00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:00,840
Speaker 3: and so so forth. Like you just you can't separate

657
00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:03,960
Speaker 3: that from the pop culture idea of the ninja. But

658
00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:06,800
Speaker 3: this seemed this idea that they wore all black and

659
00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:09,880
Speaker 3: trooped around like this apparently did not emerge in Japan

660
00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:15,120
Speaker 3: until around eighteen seventeen, or at least that's when we

661
00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:20,279
Speaker 3: see the first known print, the first known image of

662
00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:24,160
Speaker 3: a ninja wearing this sort of garb. And it actually

663
00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:29,160
Speaker 3: ties into a very important figure in Japanese art history,

664
00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:34,320
Speaker 3: Katsushi Kuhokusai, who if you're not familiar with his name,

665
00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:37,720
Speaker 3: you're very familiar with at least his most famous piece,

666
00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:41,160
Speaker 3: and that is the Great Wave of Kandagatwa. This artist

667
00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:43,359
Speaker 3: lives seventeen sixty through eighteen forty nine.

668
00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:46,200
Speaker 1: And so what do we see in his woodblock featuring

669
00:39:46,239 --> 00:39:47,640
Speaker 1: a ninja.

670
00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:50,080
Speaker 3: Well, we see something that is just instantly recognizable as

671
00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:52,120
Speaker 3: a modern ninja. Like you could not mistake this for

672
00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:56,160
Speaker 3: anything else, right, because it is a man all in black,

673
00:39:56,480 --> 00:39:59,959
Speaker 3: everything covered except his eyes, and he's climbing a rope.

674
00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:02,720
Speaker 3: You just know he's climbing. You know, he's climbing somewhere

675
00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:05,520
Speaker 3: he's not supposed to be, or he's returning from that

676
00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:11,040
Speaker 3: place having assassinated somebody or having stolen some important scrolls

677
00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:15,080
Speaker 3: or something to that. To that effect, Now, where does

678
00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:17,680
Speaker 3: this come from? I mean, I'm you would be tempted,

679
00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:20,200
Speaker 3: and I think would be very understandable to guess, well,

680
00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:23,120
Speaker 3: you're just you're making an assumption that if you're up

681
00:40:23,160 --> 00:40:25,839
Speaker 3: to secretive things, you might wear all black to blend in, right.

682
00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:30,000
Speaker 3: I mean, it makes sense, and it has been pointed

683
00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:32,479
Speaker 3: out that, you know, it would be ridiculous to say,

684
00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:36,000
Speaker 3: no historic Ninja's ever dressed like this, because in the

685
00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:39,319
Speaker 3: art of espionage it you know, it might make sense

686
00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:42,839
Speaker 3: to do so at some point. But it's been interpreted

687
00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:47,279
Speaker 3: that what we see here is essentially like a use

688
00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:52,160
Speaker 3: or a repurpose of what in Japanese theater is known

689
00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:56,040
Speaker 3: as akuroko, which is someone that is dressed all in black,

690
00:40:56,840 --> 00:41:00,920
Speaker 3: essentially a stage hand that is to aid in the

691
00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:03,799
Speaker 3: production in ways that you know that don't distract from

692
00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:06,759
Speaker 3: the key performance. And this is something we see in

693
00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:08,920
Speaker 3: theater arts around the world as well. You see it

694
00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:13,120
Speaker 3: in puppetry, for example, you want an invisible puppeteer, then

695
00:41:13,160 --> 00:41:15,279
Speaker 3: you have them just wear all black and black over

696
00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:18,880
Speaker 3: their faces as well, so they blend into the background

697
00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:20,960
Speaker 3: and don't distract from the central performance.

698
00:41:21,160 --> 00:41:23,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, when I've done theater, you know people working backstage

699
00:41:23,680 --> 00:41:25,600
Speaker 1: were dressed in all black, and I guess the idea

700
00:41:25,600 --> 00:41:27,799
Speaker 1: is you're just less likely to be seen that way.

701
00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:33,040
Speaker 1: But yeah, Turnbull talks about this that in traditional kabuki theater,

702
00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:36,200
Speaker 1: there were these figures, the corogo or the coroko, who

703
00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:40,759
Speaker 1: would wear all black to like move scenery around or

704
00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:44,680
Speaker 1: maybe like help the actors change costume within view of

705
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:47,440
Speaker 1: the audience or something. But they would be dressed in

706
00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:49,520
Speaker 1: black and they would have a mask over their face,

707
00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:53,040
Speaker 1: and this would symbolize it would not only make them

708
00:41:53,239 --> 00:41:58,120
Speaker 1: stand out less visually, but also apparently would like symbolize invisibility.

709
00:41:58,719 --> 00:42:01,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, so what we're looking here, it's interesting. It's kind

710
00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:04,440
Speaker 3: of a mash up, a visual mashup of the idea

711
00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:08,400
Speaker 3: of the invisible ninja and the mostly invisible presence of

712
00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:11,359
Speaker 3: the stage hand. And of course the stage hand is

713
00:42:11,880 --> 00:42:15,720
Speaker 3: literally manipulating reality, but in a way that is supposed

714
00:42:15,719 --> 00:42:19,040
Speaker 3: to be secondary to the performers. Also interesting to think

715
00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:22,279
Speaker 3: about that a lot of these productions are going to

716
00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:24,719
Speaker 3: involve samurai, you know, so you're going to have like

717
00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:27,760
Speaker 3: the samurai in the forefront doing all the really important

718
00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:31,320
Speaker 3: dramatic stuff, but in the background, there are these almost

719
00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:36,000
Speaker 3: invisible characters who are doing something else, something that that

720
00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:38,120
Speaker 3: we're we're not meant to know about.

721
00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:40,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, But of course, the ironic thing about like dressing

722
00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:43,520
Speaker 1: in a full black costume head to toe is that

723
00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:46,360
Speaker 1: if somebody saw you and you were wearing this costume,

724
00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:49,360
Speaker 1: you would you would instantly stand out in reality, like

725
00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:51,960
Speaker 1: with not in the context of a stage play or something,

726
00:42:52,719 --> 00:42:55,360
Speaker 1: and so yeah, it's it's a contradiction to what would

727
00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:57,759
Speaker 1: actually be said. In most of the texts that talk

728
00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:00,799
Speaker 1: about ninja or Shanobi going way back, they say, oh,

729
00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:03,360
Speaker 1: you know what these people would do is wear a disguise,

730
00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:05,960
Speaker 1: so you blend in with the people that you're trying

731
00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:07,560
Speaker 1: to infiltrate. Yeah.

732
00:43:07,719 --> 00:43:11,319
Speaker 3: So yeah, in general, when we think about what would

733
00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:13,799
Speaker 3: a ninja look like, what would a Shanoby look like,

734
00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:16,479
Speaker 3: they would just look like anybody else. The best way

735
00:43:16,520 --> 00:43:19,279
Speaker 3: to move from point A to point B through the

736
00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:22,359
Speaker 3: people is to look like the people, and so that's

737
00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:25,040
Speaker 3: what they would have done. I guess James Bond does this.

738
00:43:25,080 --> 00:43:27,000
Speaker 3: I can't remember. James Bond's always wearing it. He's always

739
00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:29,200
Speaker 3: going places where you wear a tuxedo anyway, so I

740
00:43:29,239 --> 00:43:32,000
Speaker 3: guess it's like he's doing that. But you know, in general,

741
00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:34,640
Speaker 3: like a spy is going to want to blend into

742
00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:36,480
Speaker 3: the crowd. They don't want to stand out, you know.

743
00:43:36,560 --> 00:43:41,640
Speaker 3: It's that you want to be the least interesting looking

744
00:43:41,719 --> 00:43:44,960
Speaker 3: person in the room because nobody is supposed to know

745
00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:45,439
Speaker 3: you're there.

746
00:43:46,080 --> 00:43:49,040
Speaker 1: I guess it actually highlights a tension between the reality

747
00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:54,680
Speaker 1: of intelligence gathering and spy work and the sort of

748
00:43:55,040 --> 00:43:57,200
Speaker 1: the media demands, which is like, when you want to

749
00:43:57,239 --> 00:43:59,040
Speaker 1: read a spy story, you want it to be the

750
00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:02,560
Speaker 1: most thrilling an exciting thing possible. So you want the

751
00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:05,680
Speaker 1: spy hero to be like to stand out, to be

752
00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:08,920
Speaker 1: notable and exciting in every way. And then reality, if

753
00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:10,759
Speaker 1: you were doing spy work, you would want to be

754
00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:15,320
Speaker 1: the least exciting, least notable looking person on earth. Yeah.

755
00:44:15,360 --> 00:44:18,600
Speaker 3: Absolutely so. I guess at this point we might summarize,

756
00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:21,920
Speaker 3: as we kind of reached towards the end of this episode,

757
00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:29,080
Speaker 3: that the ninja is there's a historical like bedrock, and

758
00:44:29,120 --> 00:44:32,560
Speaker 3: then there is all of this fiction and legend making

759
00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:36,640
Speaker 3: and mythology on top of that. And one of the

760
00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:43,360
Speaker 3: additional challenges here is that there's there's less historical record

761
00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:47,200
Speaker 3: down there on the bedrock than one would like. There's

762
00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:50,719
Speaker 3: a lot more fiction and legend making, and it can

763
00:44:50,760 --> 00:44:53,000
Speaker 3: make things things difficult. It can make it difficult to

764
00:44:53,040 --> 00:44:55,560
Speaker 3: sort of try to weed out what exactly is the

765
00:44:55,800 --> 00:45:01,520
Speaker 3: historic reality of the Shanobi. And then these various groups

766
00:45:01,560 --> 00:45:06,360
Speaker 3: that are described as Shanobi and there apparently are according

767
00:45:06,360 --> 00:45:09,480
Speaker 3: to Yoda and A, there are like three different ways

768
00:45:09,560 --> 00:45:12,240
Speaker 3: of sort of looking at why this is the case.

769
00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:16,200
Speaker 3: And the first is something that we've touched on already,

770
00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:20,279
Speaker 3: and that is that, Okay, if if Shnobi operatives were

771
00:45:20,360 --> 00:45:25,200
Speaker 3: generally common born dirty tricks specialists who were you know,

772
00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:30,080
Speaker 3: taboo to use and not something you'd brag about, they're

773
00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:32,799
Speaker 3: totally not on the same level of cultural esteem and

774
00:45:32,840 --> 00:45:36,719
Speaker 3: power as the samurai warrior class. So the samurai are

775
00:45:36,760 --> 00:45:38,480
Speaker 3: going to get all the stories and the legends and

776
00:45:38,520 --> 00:45:41,440
Speaker 3: the tales at least during their initial that the key

777
00:45:41,520 --> 00:45:45,600
Speaker 3: period of operations here and and the ninja are going

778
00:45:45,640 --> 00:45:50,960
Speaker 3: to be ignored for the most part. Now, another important

779
00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:54,360
Speaker 3: thing to keep in mind is that the ninja would

780
00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:57,640
Speaker 3: have inevitably been a secretive bunch. They were working in

781
00:45:57,680 --> 00:46:03,160
Speaker 3: the shadow. They died under the radar, and Yoda and

782
00:46:03,200 --> 00:46:08,080
Speaker 3: Auld actually signed an individual by the name of Musque Hatsumi,

783
00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:12,080
Speaker 3: the last living descendant of the Tokokushi School of Ninja,

784
00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:15,320
Speaker 3: who stated that quote, if one can know the truth

785
00:46:15,440 --> 00:46:21,000
Speaker 3: about ninjutsu, it isn't really ninjutsu. So this reminds me

786
00:46:21,040 --> 00:46:24,920
Speaker 3: a bit of the nineteen sixty seven Japanese crime thriller

787
00:46:25,040 --> 00:46:29,600
Speaker 3: Branded to Kill, which is a very stylish noir action

788
00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:33,000
Speaker 3: picture about assassins. But in that movie, which again is

789
00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:35,560
Speaker 3: very much work of fiction that's not to be taken

790
00:46:35,600 --> 00:46:37,880
Speaker 3: a reality, it's in a very surreal in some ways.

791
00:46:39,040 --> 00:46:41,839
Speaker 3: But in that fiction, there's like this ranking of assassins,

792
00:46:42,280 --> 00:46:45,160
Speaker 3: and there's supposedly a number one assassin, like the best

793
00:46:45,239 --> 00:46:50,560
Speaker 3: assassin in the world of Japanese crime, but they are

794
00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:53,280
Speaker 3: almost like a ghost there. They might not even exist,

795
00:46:53,440 --> 00:46:57,319
Speaker 3: or perhaps they've kind of transcended traditional existence by being

796
00:46:57,400 --> 00:47:01,200
Speaker 3: the best at what they do. So yeah, I do

797
00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:02,960
Speaker 3: like this idea, and I think there maybe is something

798
00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:05,360
Speaker 3: to acknowledge there that you're dealing with the secret of

799
00:47:05,480 --> 00:47:08,440
Speaker 3: organization that wouldn't want there to be a bunch of

800
00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:11,160
Speaker 3: records about what they did and what they're doing. They

801
00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:13,839
Speaker 3: would have wanted to remain in the shadow. And then

802
00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:16,720
Speaker 3: the third point they make is that during the heyday

803
00:47:17,000 --> 00:47:21,240
Speaker 3: of the Sengoku era, the Warring States of fourteen sixty

804
00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:25,360
Speaker 3: seven through fifteen seventy three. Roughly, the ninja were not fun.

805
00:47:25,880 --> 00:47:29,759
Speaker 3: They were synonymous with trouble and unrest again, you know,

806
00:47:29,960 --> 00:47:32,280
Speaker 3: coming back to the idea of shanobi as an adjective

807
00:47:32,280 --> 00:47:35,719
Speaker 3: as well. And it was only later, during the comparable

808
00:47:35,760 --> 00:47:38,680
Speaker 3: peace and stability of say the Edo period sixteen oh

809
00:47:38,719 --> 00:47:42,239
Speaker 3: three through eighteen sixty eight, that new generations had the

810
00:47:42,320 --> 00:47:45,719
Speaker 3: luxury of turning and looking back to the horrors of

811
00:47:45,760 --> 00:47:49,320
Speaker 3: the past to spin out new tales of their stealthy

812
00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:52,080
Speaker 3: exploits for entertainment purposes.

813
00:47:52,560 --> 00:47:55,000
Speaker 1: Well, I think maybe we are out of time for

814
00:47:55,080 --> 00:47:56,960
Speaker 1: part one, but there's a lot more to say about

815
00:47:57,000 --> 00:48:02,080
Speaker 1: the ninja, trying to unravel the historical complexities, the differences

816
00:48:02,160 --> 00:48:04,960
Speaker 1: between what we know and what is more likely some

817
00:48:05,080 --> 00:48:09,719
Speaker 1: kind of historical fiction or invented tradition untangling those differences,

818
00:48:10,120 --> 00:48:12,520
Speaker 1: as well as getting into some of the great anecdotes

819
00:48:12,520 --> 00:48:17,279
Speaker 1: and stories about historical alleged historical Ninja, as well as

820
00:48:17,320 --> 00:48:19,440
Speaker 1: maybe some of the science of their tools and tricks.

821
00:48:19,680 --> 00:48:22,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think we can definitely spin off some ninja

822
00:48:22,120 --> 00:48:26,359
Speaker 3: science in a subsequent episode, So excited to get into

823
00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:28,120
Speaker 3: that later on. But we have a lot more to

824
00:48:28,160 --> 00:48:35,440
Speaker 3: cover various named ninjas of history and legend worth talking

825
00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:39,520
Speaker 3: about some more about just how you know this interwoven

826
00:48:39,600 --> 00:48:43,400
Speaker 3: idea of the ninja comes to fruition and so forth.

827
00:48:43,640 --> 00:48:45,879
Speaker 3: So keep on the lookout for that. By the way,

828
00:48:45,920 --> 00:48:48,840
Speaker 3: that book that I mentioned by Yoda and Alt Ninja Attack,

829
00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:51,680
Speaker 3: this is one of three books that they put out.

830
00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:55,040
Speaker 3: The other two are on Yo Kai and ury. If

831
00:48:55,040 --> 00:48:56,560
Speaker 3: you look these up, you're going to notice that it

832
00:48:56,560 --> 00:48:59,520
Speaker 3: has some very flashy, fun illustrations on the cover. I

833
00:48:59,560 --> 00:49:04,040
Speaker 3: believe that the illustrator is Utaka Kondo, and it has

834
00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:07,640
Speaker 3: like a very fun manga look to everything. Uh. But

835
00:49:07,640 --> 00:49:11,520
Speaker 3: but these are very informative, very well cited texts.

836
00:49:12,080 --> 00:49:12,160
Speaker 1: Uh.

837
00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:14,400
Speaker 3: I highly recommend them. They're a lot of fun. That

838
00:49:14,560 --> 00:49:17,839
Speaker 3: the Yokai book I read with my son, We really

839
00:49:17,840 --> 00:49:20,480
Speaker 3: got into that one. H And yeah, you'll learn a

840
00:49:20,480 --> 00:49:23,560
Speaker 3: lot about Japanese culture and history. So anyway, we're going

841
00:49:23,640 --> 00:49:25,640
Speaker 3: to go and close out here, but write in. We'd

842
00:49:25,680 --> 00:49:27,120
Speaker 3: love to hear from you if you have any thoughts

843
00:49:27,120 --> 00:49:30,960
Speaker 3: on anything we discussed here, including your first exposures to

844
00:49:31,040 --> 00:49:35,040
Speaker 3: the wonderful world of the of the pop culture ninja.

845
00:49:35,160 --> 00:49:37,319
Speaker 3: Where did what what? Where was it? What did you see?

846
00:49:37,360 --> 00:49:39,200
Speaker 3: Was it a video game? Was it a TV show?

847
00:49:39,360 --> 00:49:42,240
Speaker 3: Was it a Japanese film?

848
00:49:42,800 --> 00:49:42,920
Speaker 2: Uh?

849
00:49:43,239 --> 00:49:45,960
Speaker 3: We we we want to know. We're very interested in this.

850
00:49:46,600 --> 00:49:49,440
Speaker 3: In the global legend of the Ninja.

851
00:49:49,000 --> 00:49:52,560
Speaker 1: Did anybody out there ever beat Ninja Gaiden? Oh?

852
00:49:52,640 --> 00:49:54,759
Speaker 3: Man, I don't think. I don't think I played that one.

853
00:49:54,800 --> 00:49:58,360
Speaker 3: But that is another huge Ninja video game franchise.

854
00:49:58,400 --> 00:50:01,160
Speaker 1: Of note. We accept your tall tales about how you

855
00:50:01,200 --> 00:50:03,720
Speaker 1: were almost to the last stage but then kept getting

856
00:50:03,760 --> 00:50:05,960
Speaker 1: knocked off the ledge by that thing that spawns over

857
00:50:06,000 --> 00:50:06,279
Speaker 1: and over.

858
00:50:06,719 --> 00:50:08,839
Speaker 3: Now, this is this one that you could actually beat,

859
00:50:08,840 --> 00:50:10,279
Speaker 3: because I know there have been some of the In fact,

860
00:50:10,320 --> 00:50:12,240
Speaker 3: I think there's a teenage mean and Ninja Turtle game

861
00:50:12,360 --> 00:50:16,480
Speaker 3: for like Anys that it was only later that people realize, oh,

862
00:50:16,520 --> 00:50:21,360
Speaker 3: you couldn't actually make some pivotal jump that always nobody

863
00:50:21,400 --> 00:50:22,319
Speaker 3: could actually beat it.

864
00:50:22,560 --> 00:50:24,880
Speaker 1: I don't know. We've talked about this before. Yeah, I

865
00:50:24,920 --> 00:50:29,319
Speaker 1: remember that, but I don't know about Ninja Guide, and

866
00:50:29,360 --> 00:50:30,680
Speaker 1: I just remember it being hard.

867
00:50:31,680 --> 00:50:33,560
Speaker 3: They used to make the game, those games so hard.

868
00:50:33,719 --> 00:50:35,840
Speaker 3: I did not miss it. Some people were nostalgic for

869
00:50:35,880 --> 00:50:39,200
Speaker 3: impossible games. I occasionally play one of these and I'm like, no,

870
00:50:39,280 --> 00:50:41,239
Speaker 3: I want to be able to beat this and move

871
00:50:41,280 --> 00:50:45,600
Speaker 3: on from it. This is not a lifelong struggle I'm

872
00:50:45,640 --> 00:50:46,279
Speaker 3: signing up for.

873
00:50:46,760 --> 00:50:49,160
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I'm with you there. I don't know. People

874
00:50:49,160 --> 00:50:51,600
Speaker 1: play video games for different reasons, I guess, but if

875
00:50:51,640 --> 00:50:54,280
Speaker 1: I play video game, I'm not looking to test my metal.

876
00:50:54,440 --> 00:50:56,120
Speaker 1: I'm just like, I'm trying to relax.

877
00:50:56,360 --> 00:50:59,200
Speaker 3: Like, yeah, I want to feel like a competent ninja

878
00:50:59,280 --> 00:51:02,480
Speaker 3: in this video game, not an incompetent I didn't sign

879
00:51:02,560 --> 00:51:03,960
Speaker 3: up for a bunch of ninja fails.

880
00:51:04,160 --> 00:51:06,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, well there were a lot of those in that anyway. Okay,

881
00:51:06,800 --> 00:51:09,799
Speaker 1: so I guess we're wrapping up for today, but we'll

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00:51:09,800 --> 00:51:13,080
Speaker 1: see you next time. A huge thanks as always to

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00:51:13,120 --> 00:51:16,799
Speaker 1: our excellent audio producer JJ Posway. If you would like

884
00:51:16,840 --> 00:51:18,759
Speaker 1: to get in touch with us with feedback on this

885
00:51:18,800 --> 00:51:21,280
Speaker 1: episode or any other, to suggest a topic for the future,

886
00:51:21,360 --> 00:51:23,680
Speaker 1: or just to say hello, you can email us at

887
00:51:23,760 --> 00:51:33,480
Speaker 1: contact at stuff to Blow your Mind dot com.

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00:51:33,520 --> 00:51:36,480
Speaker 2: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For

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00:51:36,560 --> 00:51:39,360
Speaker 2: more podcasts from My Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

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00:51:39,520 --> 00:51:51,200
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.