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Thank you, zip Recruiter. Climb stories 25 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:49,040 Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph Channel one. Two 26 00:01:50,240 --> 00:01:53,559 Speaker 1: year old Brian Peck initially called one and set his mom. 27 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:56,680 Speaker 1: Seventy six year old Gale Peck disappeared while walking her dog. 28 00:01:56,880 --> 00:01:59,200 Speaker 1: He was his mother's only child and he lived in 29 00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:02,919 Speaker 1: her basement. After being confronted with evidence by police, prosecutors 30 00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:05,400 Speaker 1: say Peck admitted, I put her in the bathtub and 31 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:08,240 Speaker 1: hacked her up. He's now accused of killing her. The 32 00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:11,320 Speaker 1: dependant said that on Wednesday, he drove the bags that 33 00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:15,040 Speaker 1: contained her head and arms to Montrose Harbor and threw 34 00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:18,920 Speaker 1: those bags into Lake Michigan. Police divers searched Lake Michigan 35 00:02:18,960 --> 00:02:21,520 Speaker 1: near Foster looking for the cut up remains of seventy 36 00:02:21,560 --> 00:02:23,880 Speaker 1: six year old Gayl Peck. The dependant said that his 37 00:02:23,919 --> 00:02:26,880 Speaker 1: mother was furious that he was playing his music so loud. 38 00:02:29,040 --> 00:02:33,359 Speaker 1: Did a man murder his mother because she told him 39 00:02:33,440 --> 00:02:38,760 Speaker 1: his music was too loud. Now, granted it was Jimi Hendrix, 40 00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:41,920 Speaker 1: so I understand why he needed it cranked up, But 41 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:46,800 Speaker 1: murdering your mom when she says your music is too loud? 42 00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:51,560 Speaker 1: Joining me you right now is Alan Duke. Dr Daniel 43 00:02:51,720 --> 00:02:56,320 Speaker 1: Bober forensics psychiatrist and Joseph's got Morgan forensics expert. Alan, 44 00:02:57,040 --> 00:03:01,360 Speaker 1: what happened? Did I miss something? Five year old Brian 45 00:03:01,440 --> 00:03:05,960 Speaker 1: Peck lived with his mom in Elgin, Illinois, and uh, 46 00:03:06,880 --> 00:03:09,680 Speaker 1: she went missing and there was a big mystery about it, 47 00:03:09,760 --> 00:03:11,960 Speaker 1: and so they were looking all over the place for her. 48 00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:14,440 Speaker 1: He said that she just went out walking the dog. 49 00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:19,920 Speaker 1: The dog came back and no mom. Well, the investigation ensued. 50 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:23,720 Speaker 1: They found security camera video and everything, and they figured 51 00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:27,480 Speaker 1: out exactly what happened, Nancy, and you will not believe 52 00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:30,520 Speaker 1: what they figured out. Well, let me ask you a question. 53 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:33,480 Speaker 1: How did they figured it out from security cameras? I 54 00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:37,080 Speaker 1: don't understand if the dog was out wandering around by itself, 55 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:40,840 Speaker 1: how did they see anything on surveillance video that helped 56 00:03:40,880 --> 00:03:43,840 Speaker 1: them figure it out other than the dog walking story 57 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:46,800 Speaker 1: was a lie. Well, they figured something was weird because 58 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:50,440 Speaker 1: this guy, Brian Peck, he's fifty five, His mom is 59 00:03:50,640 --> 00:03:54,160 Speaker 1: uh seventies six, and they just didn't think it added up. 60 00:03:54,200 --> 00:03:56,640 Speaker 1: So they started looking at bank account records, and they 61 00:03:56,680 --> 00:04:00,839 Speaker 1: started looking uh following his footsteps, and they found where 62 00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:03,680 Speaker 1: he went to a store and purchased luggage. Well, he 63 00:04:03,880 --> 00:04:06,320 Speaker 1: wasn't going to make a trip and they didn't know 64 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:09,600 Speaker 1: where that luggage was. So what did he buy luggage 65 00:04:09,640 --> 00:04:14,440 Speaker 1: for in the hours after his mother disappeared? Wow, I'm 66 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:18,000 Speaker 1: just having a hard time taking it in, Dr Daniel Bober. Boy, 67 00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:21,400 Speaker 1: do I need a shrink on this? Um? I'm just 68 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:24,039 Speaker 1: trying to get my mind around it. Angered after he 69 00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:28,400 Speaker 1: was told he was playing his Jimmy Hendrix music too loudly. Allegedly, 70 00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:35,800 Speaker 1: this guy kills his mom, dismembers her body, and disposes 71 00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:40,359 Speaker 1: of her remains along Chicago's Latefront and he did it 72 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:44,880 Speaker 1: over two days. He put the body parts in bags 73 00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:49,440 Speaker 1: and nearly purchased luggage. Okay, Um, so I'm sure they've 74 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:52,320 Speaker 1: got it on surveillance video of him buying the luggage. 75 00:04:52,360 --> 00:04:56,960 Speaker 1: They always do. Here's my first question, Dr Daniel Bober 76 00:04:57,520 --> 00:05:00,559 Speaker 1: And men people accuse me of being a an hater. 77 00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:08,160 Speaker 1: That is not true. I just hate men that commit felonies. Okay, Now, 78 00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:11,919 Speaker 1: why is it you never read about a girl or 79 00:05:11,960 --> 00:05:16,039 Speaker 1: a woman murdering her mother because his music her music 80 00:05:16,120 --> 00:05:20,839 Speaker 1: was too loud, or going off because the Christmas tree 81 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:24,440 Speaker 1: blinked wrong? I mean, what is it about men? I 82 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:28,320 Speaker 1: mean what? What? No offense? Because I know you are 83 00:05:28,400 --> 00:05:33,680 Speaker 1: one of the species. But what is wrong with MENC what? 84 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:38,760 Speaker 1: Men are more aggressive by nature? Mor testosterone? But there's 85 00:05:38,760 --> 00:05:41,080 Speaker 1: already a red flag in this case. Wait, are you 86 00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:44,560 Speaker 1: somehow blaming this on their pps? Okay? Is that what 87 00:05:44,640 --> 00:05:48,440 Speaker 1: I'm hearing is about the testosterone? Because I and the 88 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:51,320 Speaker 1: rest of the women in this country don't agree. It's 89 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:55,080 Speaker 1: something about impulse control. Yeah. I want to mow down 90 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:57,240 Speaker 1: a lot of people on the highway, but I don't 91 00:05:57,320 --> 00:05:59,520 Speaker 1: do it. I don't even shoot a bird for pizza 92 00:05:59,560 --> 00:06:03,240 Speaker 1: because it's you are watching. I control it. I suppress 93 00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:06,440 Speaker 1: my demons. Why can't man do it? What's wrong with them? 94 00:06:06,920 --> 00:06:09,040 Speaker 1: And another thing? Why can't they even pick up their underwear? 95 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:11,480 Speaker 1: That's another good question, but I'll deal with that later. 96 00:06:11,560 --> 00:06:15,520 Speaker 1: Let's deal with the homicide first, Nancy, There's there's clearly 97 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:17,640 Speaker 1: a red flag in this case of fifty five year 98 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:20,200 Speaker 1: old male living with his mother, his seventy six year 99 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:22,240 Speaker 1: old mothers. So he's either there for two reasons, either 100 00:06:22,279 --> 00:06:24,400 Speaker 1: to take care of her, which it doesn't seem like 101 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:28,159 Speaker 1: that's clearly not the reason, and or he's suffering from 102 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:31,520 Speaker 1: some form of chronic mental illness and social drift where 103 00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:33,719 Speaker 1: he was never able out to get out of the 104 00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:37,120 Speaker 1: home and build his own life and live independently. So 105 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:40,200 Speaker 1: that to me is already a red flag. Um. But 106 00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:44,360 Speaker 1: you know clearly the music playing loud is not the problem. 107 00:06:44,400 --> 00:06:46,560 Speaker 1: It's the symptom of the problem, and the problem is 108 00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:49,640 Speaker 1: most likely some form of chronic mental illness or and 109 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:53,400 Speaker 1: or substance use which creates a situation where he has 110 00:06:53,440 --> 00:06:57,120 Speaker 1: no impulse control, as you stated, low frustration tolerance, and 111 00:06:57,240 --> 00:06:59,000 Speaker 1: he just went off and he did it and then 112 00:06:59,040 --> 00:07:02,560 Speaker 1: tried to conceal the I want to go through how 113 00:07:02,680 --> 00:07:06,760 Speaker 1: the whole thing went down, but first to you, Joseph Scott, Morrigan, 114 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:12,720 Speaker 1: death investigator and professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University. 115 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:16,320 Speaker 1: Joe Scott, I mean just the thought, I'm afraid to 116 00:07:16,440 --> 00:07:19,760 Speaker 1: even hug my mom too tight because she's so frail 117 00:07:20,560 --> 00:07:22,480 Speaker 1: and ps I live with my mother, so I don't 118 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:28,080 Speaker 1: know what that says about me bober but um to think, 119 00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:30,760 Speaker 1: I mean, how do you get the frame of mind 120 00:07:31,760 --> 00:07:35,480 Speaker 1: that you kill your mom, which is very rare crime 121 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:40,720 Speaker 1: matri side a slang term for it or parenticide also 122 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:45,800 Speaker 1: slang um. And then you have the mindset that you 123 00:07:45,920 --> 00:07:53,280 Speaker 1: can dismember her body, put your mom's body parts. I 124 00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:55,400 Speaker 1: I just don't even want to even say those words 125 00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:59,640 Speaker 1: in the same sentence into plastic bags and then into 126 00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:05,760 Speaker 1: newly purchase luggage. Help me out, Joe Scott. Dismemberment of 127 00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:08,920 Speaker 1: a human body is not an easy thing to accomplish, Nancy, 128 00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:11,280 Speaker 1: particularly when you're you've never done it, and then you're 129 00:08:11,320 --> 00:08:14,520 Speaker 1: standing there over the remains of your mother, attempting to 130 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:18,560 Speaker 1: do this with rudimentary tools by surgical standards. From what 131 00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:23,520 Speaker 1: I'm understanding, Uh, this fellow, their characterizement as a hand saw, 132 00:08:23,640 --> 00:08:25,280 Speaker 1: Now that can be any number of things. You know. 133 00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:27,000 Speaker 1: The first thing I think most people think of is 134 00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:30,920 Speaker 1: like a carpentry saw. Uh. And also uh, the word 135 00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:35,240 Speaker 1: hatchett has been has been used as well. You're talking 136 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:40,800 Speaker 1: about someone that would utilize these hand tools essentially to 137 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:44,840 Speaker 1: pull apart their own mother and to dispose of the 138 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:49,520 Speaker 1: remains in in bags placed them and luggage, this sort 139 00:08:49,559 --> 00:08:51,880 Speaker 1: of thing. It's not an easy undertaking when you have 140 00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:54,839 Speaker 1: no experience at butchrank. It takes time. You have to 141 00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:58,199 Speaker 1: have a location that's isolated, and then from a forensic standpoint, 142 00:08:58,440 --> 00:08:59,760 Speaker 1: you have to be able to clean up. This is 143 00:08:59,760 --> 00:09:03,760 Speaker 1: going to create an incredible mess. I can only imagine 144 00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:08,640 Speaker 1: that the police department. Yeah, it's going to have what 145 00:09:08,679 --> 00:09:11,959 Speaker 1: we referred to as an evidence rich environment, particularly with blood, 146 00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:16,520 Speaker 1: blood transfer, blood spatter, all of these sorts of things. So, uh, 147 00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:20,240 Speaker 1: it's very difficult in order to facilitate this. And then 148 00:09:20,480 --> 00:09:22,480 Speaker 1: you know, the doctor could could address this more. But 149 00:09:23,480 --> 00:09:27,640 Speaker 1: this kind of overarching psychological theme of having to take 150 00:09:27,679 --> 00:09:30,600 Speaker 1: apart this person that has taken care of you throughout 151 00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:33,640 Speaker 1: your life and um, and you can just kind of 152 00:09:33,679 --> 00:09:36,360 Speaker 1: mechanically go about doing it. This guy, he planned this, 153 00:09:36,679 --> 00:09:38,840 Speaker 1: He went out, he purchased these items in order to 154 00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:43,720 Speaker 1: stow her body. There's even one report that he tried 155 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:47,600 Speaker 1: to fit her into the refrigerator, which I found very curious, um, 156 00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:51,120 Speaker 1: in order to store in there. And he disabled the 157 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:54,200 Speaker 1: refrigerator because he was using a hatchet, uh to take 158 00:09:54,760 --> 00:09:58,480 Speaker 1: the shells out of refrigerator. Wait a minute, Joe Scott. 159 00:09:58,520 --> 00:10:01,200 Speaker 1: Did you just say he tried to remove the shelves 160 00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:06,240 Speaker 1: of the refrigerator so he could fit his mother in there. Yeah, 161 00:10:06,280 --> 00:10:09,080 Speaker 1: And that's that's disturbing. Why would you want to put 162 00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:12,679 Speaker 1: your mother in the refrigerator? Why would you buy bags? 163 00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:17,400 Speaker 1: At the same time, I'm thinking thinking that more than 164 00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:21,920 Speaker 1: likely he had planned this to a great degree. Uh, 165 00:10:21,960 --> 00:10:25,240 Speaker 1: And in order to to try to put the police off. 166 00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:27,240 Speaker 1: Maybe maybe he was trying to slow down the rated 167 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:31,720 Speaker 1: decomposition by putting her in the refrigerator and then masking this. 168 00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:36,320 Speaker 1: I've seen this in other cases involving dismemberment. Uh, And 169 00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:38,720 Speaker 1: so no one really knows. It's like he was organized 170 00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:41,080 Speaker 1: on one side, but then when he gets into the 171 00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:46,920 Speaker 1: middle of this thing, it becomes very frenetic and disorganized. Wow, 172 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:51,400 Speaker 1: that was quite a mouthful, Joseph skyd Morgan, I'm just 173 00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:56,880 Speaker 1: trying to digest the whole thing. To Dr Daniel Bober 174 00:10:57,160 --> 00:11:00,720 Speaker 1: forensic psychiatrists, I'm thinking about what Joseph got Morgan is 175 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:05,160 Speaker 1: telling me, and the time and the energy and the planning, 176 00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:09,560 Speaker 1: uh that this guy went through. Whether or not the 177 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:12,440 Speaker 1: initial shooting of his mom or the killing of his 178 00:11:12,520 --> 00:11:19,280 Speaker 1: mom occurred on impulse. Then there was the cover up, 179 00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:23,360 Speaker 1: the dismembering of the body, the cleaning up, the trying 180 00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:26,920 Speaker 1: to change the refrigerator shelves, the hours and hours it 181 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:31,480 Speaker 1: would take to dismember the body, going and getting plastic bags, 182 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:35,960 Speaker 1: going and getting suitcases. I mean, how does the human 183 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:43,680 Speaker 1: mind work during this very long and arduous process. Dr Bober. Essentially, Nancy, 184 00:11:43,800 --> 00:11:46,680 Speaker 1: you essentially have to disconnect yourself from your emotions. It's 185 00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:49,560 Speaker 1: really the only way you can operate in this type 186 00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:53,720 Speaker 1: of the situation. You're basically on automatic pilot. We don't 187 00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:55,920 Speaker 1: know the history of this individual in terms of what 188 00:11:56,040 --> 00:11:58,720 Speaker 1: his relationship was like with his mother, but we know 189 00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:00,880 Speaker 1: that he was living with her, so there had to 190 00:12:00,880 --> 00:12:03,960 Speaker 1: be some kind of an intimate close relationship. But the 191 00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:05,640 Speaker 1: only way to be able to do something like that 192 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:09,520 Speaker 1: is to completely cut yourself off emotionally, uh and focus 193 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:12,280 Speaker 1: on the task at hand. Whether this was a crime 194 00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:15,160 Speaker 1: of impulse, or maybe it was something that was brewing 195 00:12:15,160 --> 00:12:17,000 Speaker 1: in his mind for a long time and this was 196 00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:19,000 Speaker 1: something that just sort of put him over the top, 197 00:12:19,520 --> 00:12:21,800 Speaker 1: It is hard to know, but he's certainly tried to 198 00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:27,160 Speaker 1: uh spend a lot of time concealing it. After the fact, Ellen, 199 00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:30,400 Speaker 1: do what do we know about him specifically and about 200 00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:34,320 Speaker 1: his relationship with his mother if anything. Oh, we do 201 00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:37,440 Speaker 1: know some things that are coming out now in the documents. 202 00:12:37,920 --> 00:12:42,120 Speaker 1: Not only does he have six felony convictions, that's aggravated battery, 203 00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:45,280 Speaker 1: identity theft, computer fraud, possession of a stolen vehicle, theft 204 00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:48,600 Speaker 1: by deception, but he also was he spent a hundred 205 00:12:48,679 --> 00:12:54,120 Speaker 1: days in jail in that was last year for punching 206 00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:58,240 Speaker 1: his mother in her face, trying to choke her. He 207 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:00,480 Speaker 1: was locked up for a hundred day. He's given two 208 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:04,160 Speaker 1: years probation. When she visited him in jail, she told 209 00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:06,720 Speaker 1: him quote that he crossed the line when he became 210 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:09,319 Speaker 1: violent with me, that he was no longer my son, 211 00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:11,800 Speaker 1: and I never want to have contact with him again. 212 00:13:11,840 --> 00:13:16,120 Speaker 1: That's according to new court documents. So she tried. I'm 213 00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:19,120 Speaker 1: not sure what happened after that, but she apparently tried. 214 00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:23,520 Speaker 1: Poor thing. I feel so bad for her. I'm looking 215 00:13:23,520 --> 00:13:28,320 Speaker 1: at a picture of her smiling, and I also learned 216 00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:33,960 Speaker 1: that she had spinal fusion surgery, and so she was 217 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:38,640 Speaker 1: even more frail than she looked. Her body parts were 218 00:13:38,640 --> 00:13:43,200 Speaker 1: found in Duffel bags by a fisherman and divers at 219 00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:46,880 Speaker 1: a Lincoln part lagoon. So far, we've only found the 220 00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:52,199 Speaker 1: pants and the torso of two of the legs. Apparently 221 00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:55,960 Speaker 1: part of the body was disposed at Montrose Harbor, where 222 00:13:56,000 --> 00:14:00,320 Speaker 1: police were investigating on Tuesday. We know that he played 223 00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:02,880 Speaker 1: guilty to a domestic battery and got a jail sentence. 224 00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:07,719 Speaker 1: That was when he threatened to kill his mother. They 225 00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:11,160 Speaker 1: had shared that home together in oak Brook for some time, 226 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:15,720 Speaker 1: but according to Alan Duke and his investigation, she had asked, 227 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:19,600 Speaker 1: basically told him to get out after the last time 228 00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:24,160 Speaker 1: he attacked her. I wonder how everything went sideways. I 229 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:28,920 Speaker 1: know this, Dr Bober, and I've only learned this. You know, 230 00:14:29,080 --> 00:14:32,720 Speaker 1: in the last ten years. There is nothing like a 231 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:36,160 Speaker 1: mother's love. You know, you think you're in love, you 232 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:38,680 Speaker 1: think you've met Mr Wright, you think you love this 233 00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:42,800 Speaker 1: and that when you have children. It is the closest 234 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:47,720 Speaker 1: thing I've ever seen to unconditional love. Ever. So she 235 00:14:47,840 --> 00:14:50,200 Speaker 1: took him back, Dr Bober, She let him move back in. 236 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:52,600 Speaker 1: It's interesting you say that, Nancy. There's a book by 237 00:14:52,760 --> 00:14:55,240 Speaker 1: Eric from That's called the Art of Loving, and in 238 00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:57,840 Speaker 1: that book he says that the only truest form of 239 00:14:57,840 --> 00:14:59,960 Speaker 1: love is a love between a mother and a child. 240 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:02,840 Speaker 1: So that is very true. And I think the maternal 241 00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:06,280 Speaker 1: instincts are so strong to protect that even in the 242 00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:10,480 Speaker 1: face of him being just absolutely horrific and predatory to her, 243 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:13,840 Speaker 1: she still took him back almost in a in a sense, 244 00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:17,520 Speaker 1: a type of domestic violence relationship, where you keep making 245 00:15:17,560 --> 00:15:19,760 Speaker 1: excuses for the person and you keep taking them back. 246 00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:24,760 Speaker 1: What we know right now is is this very loving 247 00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:32,120 Speaker 1: mother is dead. We know that he lied about where 248 00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:34,120 Speaker 1: she was, that she had gone out to want the 249 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:39,760 Speaker 1: dog and never came back. Brian Peck is being held 250 00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:43,920 Speaker 1: right now, held without bail. And if you take a 251 00:15:43,960 --> 00:15:48,720 Speaker 1: look at this mom, she's just the the cutest little thing. 252 00:15:48,880 --> 00:15:54,640 Speaker 1: A seventy six year old mother. Gail Pick no longer 253 00:15:54,680 --> 00:16:00,200 Speaker 1: with us, Alan do. It wasn't just threats and a 254 00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:04,680 Speaker 1: physical confrontation. There was also the siphoning and the using 255 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:07,360 Speaker 1: of all the money she had saved up over time. 256 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:11,480 Speaker 1: What do we know, Nancy Brian Peck was living off 257 00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:14,800 Speaker 1: his seventies six year old mother. Police say that he 258 00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:18,320 Speaker 1: lived in the basement of her Elgin, Illinois house, but 259 00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:22,160 Speaker 1: he was not her major caregiver. As Dr Bober pointed, 260 00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:24,920 Speaker 1: out there are only two reasons for fifty five year 261 00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:28,320 Speaker 1: old man to be living with his mom. One he's 262 00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:31,240 Speaker 1: a freeloader who won't take care of himself. The other 263 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:34,400 Speaker 1: is he's there to take care of her. But police 264 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:38,280 Speaker 1: say Brian Peck was not a major caregiver of his mom, 265 00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:43,480 Speaker 1: so that leads the freeloader theory. In fact, prosecutor Maria 266 00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:48,200 Speaker 1: McCarthy says that Peck transferred four thousand dollars from his 267 00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:52,440 Speaker 1: mother's savings account to her checking account after she disappeared, 268 00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:55,400 Speaker 1: and he apparently used that money to buy the luggage 269 00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:59,680 Speaker 1: in which he stuffed her dismembered body in and tossed 270 00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:04,679 Speaker 1: it into a lagoon. And in court Peck told the 271 00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:07,600 Speaker 1: judge that he had no money now, and so he 272 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:12,159 Speaker 1: requested a public defender be appointed as his lawyer. And 273 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:16,520 Speaker 1: again he is not given a bond, so he's in jail. 274 00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:21,520 Speaker 1: Prosecutor McCarthy also said Peck, who was his mother's only child, 275 00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:26,080 Speaker 1: was a failed businessman. She said he operated a financial 276 00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:29,680 Speaker 1: business until about two years ago. Now let's hear more 277 00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:33,320 Speaker 1: of what the prosecutor told reporters about Peck and what 278 00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:37,359 Speaker 1: he told investigators. The defendant said that his mother was 279 00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:41,080 Speaker 1: furious that he was playing his music so loud. The 280 00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:43,399 Speaker 1: defendant said that the victim told him that she wanted 281 00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:45,720 Speaker 1: him to leave. The defendants said that he knocked the 282 00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:48,720 Speaker 1: victim's leg out from under her and stamped on her 283 00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:52,919 Speaker 1: head and neck. The defendant is six ft one and 284 00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:55,720 Speaker 1: two hundred and sixty pounds and the victim was five 285 00:17:55,720 --> 00:17:59,199 Speaker 1: ft four hundred and forty pounds. The defendants said that 286 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:02,760 Speaker 1: on Wednesday, he drove the bags that contained her head 287 00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:06,680 Speaker 1: and arms to Montrose Harbor and throw those bags into 288 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:10,439 Speaker 1: Lake Michigan. The defendant said that the next day he 289 00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:14,320 Speaker 1: purchased the suitcase and the double bag, put her torso 290 00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:18,600 Speaker 1: and legs into those items, drove down to Chicago, and 291 00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:21,879 Speaker 1: threw them into the water near Diversity Harbor. I passed 292 00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:26,800 Speaker 1: records from the Expressway corroborate the defendant's movements. Let's also 293 00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:30,080 Speaker 1: listened to this short statement that the Elgin Police chief 294 00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:35,280 Speaker 1: put on the police Facebook page. After the Sun was arrested. 295 00:18:36,359 --> 00:18:38,879 Speaker 1: On Friday afternoon, Ryan Pack reported to the Elgin Police 296 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:40,920 Speaker 1: Department that his mother went for a walk and never 297 00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:44,640 Speaker 1: returned home. This started a massive search for Gail Pack 298 00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:48,200 Speaker 1: that was the Elgin Police Department run foot in an 299 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:51,040 Speaker 1: a t VS. Members of the community came up to 300 00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:53,800 Speaker 1: assist us. We also had assets in the air, from 301 00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:57,840 Speaker 1: drones to helicopters. Or the course of the next few days, 302 00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:02,320 Speaker 1: detectives determined that Brian was ultimately responsible for killing his 303 00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:06,600 Speaker 1: mother and discarding her body, and that the remains found 304 00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:10,200 Speaker 1: in the Chicago lagoon where that of Gail Pack. Brian 305 00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:13,360 Speaker 1: Peck will be in bancol this morning charts with first 306 00:19:13,359 --> 00:19:20,160 Speaker 1: degree murder, premeditation, first degree murder, great probability of bodily harm, 307 00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:23,119 Speaker 1: and concealment of a homicide. It was clear custom the 308 00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:25,359 Speaker 1: very beginning and talking with family and friends that Gail 309 00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:28,240 Speaker 1: Pack was loved by all that she knew remembers. The 310 00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:31,280 Speaker 1: Elgi Police Department and the Elga community sent our thoughts 311 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:35,200 Speaker 1: and prayers to the family of Gail Pack. And now 312 00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:38,000 Speaker 1: we had across the country and the story of a 313 00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:42,359 Speaker 1: man who allegedly murders his wife because he quote wants 314 00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:46,400 Speaker 1: to date other people. But before I take you there, 315 00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:50,639 Speaker 1: I want to thank our partner today making our program possible. 316 00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:55,480 Speaker 1: It's legal Zoom. As a business manager, you know how 317 00:19:55,520 --> 00:19:59,600 Speaker 1: important it is to keep moving forward, but so many 318 00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:02,359 Speaker 1: things pop up to take your time and focus away 319 00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:06,600 Speaker 1: from growing your business. When it comes to renewing contracts, 320 00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:15,639 Speaker 1: registering trademarks, staying current on fees, permits, taxes, hiring, legal 321 00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:20,399 Speaker 1: zoom dot com can simplify your life. Legal Zoom was 322 00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:24,679 Speaker 1: created sixteen years ago by the brightest minds in law 323 00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:29,600 Speaker 1: and technology. 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For special savings, intercode Nancy in 333 00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:16,600 Speaker 1: a n C Y in the referral box at check out. 334 00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:23,360 Speaker 1: Code Nancy equals special savings only at legal zoom dot com. 335 00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:27,320 Speaker 1: Legal zoom dot Com thank you for what you're doing 336 00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:31,000 Speaker 1: for business owners across America and for being our partner 337 00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:36,040 Speaker 1: today on Sirius x M one thirty two. Did a 338 00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:41,240 Speaker 1: stock trader murder his wife so he could quote date 339 00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:45,320 Speaker 1: other people? Okay, let that sink in just a moment. 340 00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:50,800 Speaker 1: Did a stockbroker murder his wife so he could date 341 00:21:51,160 --> 00:21:54,120 Speaker 1: other people? You know what, just when you think you've 342 00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:57,760 Speaker 1: heard it all, you find out you haven't, and not 343 00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:00,840 Speaker 1: in a good way. I'm talking about forty four year 344 00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:05,920 Speaker 1: old Roderick Kvelan who allegedly killed his wife. She has 345 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:10,400 Speaker 1: found her body has found anyway in the bathtub, despite 346 00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:16,919 Speaker 1: having dry clothes on. When police arrived to their posh apartment, 347 00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:19,320 Speaker 1: they find her with dry clothes on, but dead in 348 00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:23,920 Speaker 1: the bathtub. And now a motive emerges. I'm Nancy Grace. 349 00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:26,719 Speaker 1: This is Crime Stories. Thanks for being with us. Straight 350 00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:31,760 Speaker 1: out to Larry Mayor, Crime Stories investigative reporter joining me 351 00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:36,160 Speaker 1: along with Emmy Award winning reporter Art Harris and psychologist 352 00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:40,800 Speaker 1: Dr Chlobe Carmichael. Larry, what happened? How did she end 353 00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:44,679 Speaker 1: up dead in the bathtub but with dry clothes on? 354 00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:49,919 Speaker 1: Police say that rodkvald has changed his story about what 355 00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:53,199 Speaker 1: happened on the day that his wife Shelley downashefs he 356 00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:57,440 Speaker 1: died now. According to one newspaper account, a law enforcement 357 00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:02,280 Speaker 1: source says this case I was like uh an episode 358 00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:06,080 Speaker 1: of the show Law and Order, in that Copeland who 359 00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:09,280 Speaker 1: was a failed stockbroker and was trying to make a 360 00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:12,840 Speaker 1: living playing back Gavin. Okay, wait wait wait wait wait 361 00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:19,200 Speaker 1: wait okay, right there, you know Ellen d cree you there? Yes, 362 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:23,960 Speaker 1: I am allend. If my husband marched in and said 363 00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:27,119 Speaker 1: that he was getting rid of his business so he 364 00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:31,240 Speaker 1: could be a professional backgammon player, I would change the 365 00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:37,080 Speaker 1: locks so fast his head would spin. Okay, did I 366 00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:41,040 Speaker 1: hear that right, Larry Mayor? That he gave up being 367 00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:44,879 Speaker 1: a stockbroker to be a professional backgammon player. That's true. 368 00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:47,680 Speaker 1: He had also given up on the marriage. He had 369 00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:51,120 Speaker 1: actually moved out of the family apartment on the Upper 370 00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:53,800 Speaker 1: West Side of New York and moved across the hall 371 00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:59,520 Speaker 1: into another apartment. That divorce had already started, and a 372 00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:02,480 Speaker 1: lawyer who was involved in it has characterized it as 373 00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:06,280 Speaker 1: a bitter proceeding that involved a lot of a lot 374 00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:09,800 Speaker 1: of inflammatory back and forth over custody of the couple's 375 00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:12,639 Speaker 1: two children. Tell me about the children. Whoa WHOA? Whoa what? 376 00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:16,120 Speaker 1: One thing at a time, Okay, tell me about the children. 377 00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:19,560 Speaker 1: The children were both young at the at the time. 378 00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:22,760 Speaker 1: They were nine and twelve, a daughter and a son. 379 00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:27,160 Speaker 1: And uh. The nine year old daughter found her mother's 380 00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:33,000 Speaker 1: body in the bathtub and ran or called her father, 381 00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:37,080 Speaker 1: who came across the hall to retreat. Okay, hold on, 382 00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:39,080 Speaker 1: let me. I'm trying to take it. Pick it apart 383 00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:43,600 Speaker 1: by what you're saying. Dr Chlobe Carmichael. It's about enough 384 00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:46,720 Speaker 1: when you lose a parent. I mean, I lost my 385 00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:52,680 Speaker 1: father just recently and it I'm still upset about it. 386 00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:56,520 Speaker 1: But this nine year old little girl finds her mother's 387 00:24:56,680 --> 00:25:00,119 Speaker 1: dead body. I mean, she's never going to forget that. No, 388 00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:04,200 Speaker 1: absolutely not. The horror and the shock, it's just hard 389 00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:06,960 Speaker 1: to even fathom. And then when we layer on top 390 00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:10,320 Speaker 1: of that that her father, who is supposed to be 391 00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:13,760 Speaker 1: her protector at the protector of her and of her mother, 392 00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:18,240 Speaker 1: could possibly have actually been responsible. It can be really 393 00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:22,119 Speaker 1: morally disorienting, to say the least. I just I just 394 00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:25,800 Speaker 1: can't imagine going through life that way, remembering that moment 395 00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:29,119 Speaker 1: that you walk in and you see your mom did no. 396 00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:32,000 Speaker 1: I mean, at first, you know, the little girl might 397 00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:34,359 Speaker 1: think that, um, you know, it was a game or 398 00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:38,240 Speaker 1: something like that, and probably, you know, slowly she'd start 399 00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:42,239 Speaker 1: to realize that something was was really terribly wrong. You're right, 400 00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:46,200 Speaker 1: at Nancy. It would absolutely be a lifelong issue where 401 00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:49,440 Speaker 1: she would probably need a lot of therapy. So aren't 402 00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:52,160 Speaker 1: what what do you know? Aunt Harris with me Emmy 403 00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:57,080 Speaker 1: Award winning journalists. Is it true that the wife, even 404 00:25:57,119 --> 00:25:59,879 Speaker 1: in those divorcing her. Why not just let the divorce 405 00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:03,359 Speaker 1: run its course? Art Harris and love wife was so 406 00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:05,800 Speaker 1: hampered by having an ex wife he had to kill her. 407 00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:10,760 Speaker 1: He was under a TikTok uh deadline because she was 408 00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:14,440 Speaker 1: going to a lawyer the next day to cut him 409 00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:17,480 Speaker 1: out of her will. That would have meant that the 410 00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:21,920 Speaker 1: several million dollars on the table that he is scheduled 411 00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:26,439 Speaker 1: to inherit, uh, you know, was going to be gone. 412 00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:32,560 Speaker 1: So wait a minute, Art Art Art Art, you're married, right? 413 00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:35,680 Speaker 1: I am, at least last time I checked Massy. Now, 414 00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:40,720 Speaker 1: what man in his right mind would think that after 415 00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:43,840 Speaker 1: he asked for a divorce he gets to have the 416 00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:46,399 Speaker 1: wife's inheritance. I mean, he's the one that wants to 417 00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:49,440 Speaker 1: date other people, He's the one that moves out. He's 418 00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:51,600 Speaker 1: the one that wants to divorce, so he wants the 419 00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:55,800 Speaker 1: divorce and he wants half of her estate when she dies. Yeah, 420 00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:58,840 Speaker 1: and are you my understanding correctly? Art, he wants to 421 00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:01,679 Speaker 1: have his backgammon and eat it too, and you know 422 00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:05,640 Speaker 1: he's a backgammon player by by a choice. And uh, 423 00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:08,880 Speaker 1: you know, obviously he was running short on cash and 424 00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:11,960 Speaker 1: and did not did not want to be cut out 425 00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:14,719 Speaker 1: of anything. So he sounds like a freeloader to me 426 00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:18,840 Speaker 1: because Alan, Alan, come on, the man quits his job, 427 00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:22,240 Speaker 1: he says he'd rather play backgammon, moves into a very 428 00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:26,880 Speaker 1: expensive apartment across the hall from their current apartment, wants 429 00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:29,359 Speaker 1: a divorce because he wants to quote date other people, 430 00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:32,840 Speaker 1: and wants half of her estate when she dies. I mean, 431 00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:36,639 Speaker 1: he's clearly already mooching off her like nobody's business. And 432 00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:39,800 Speaker 1: now she's dead in the bathtub with dry clothes on. Alan. Yeah, 433 00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:43,920 Speaker 1: I think an extreme midlife crisis going on here. I 434 00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:46,520 Speaker 1: I can't understand it. But but he was very good 435 00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:48,760 Speaker 1: at backgammon. That's that's to his credit. You know what. 436 00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:51,040 Speaker 1: I don't think this is the time for joking, Alan Dee. 437 00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:55,560 Speaker 1: Although I appreciate your sardonic sense of humor at all times. 438 00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:59,360 Speaker 1: But zip it? Okay, back to you, Larry. What else 439 00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:05,119 Speaker 1: do we know? The problems started, uh, almost immediately after 440 00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:11,360 Speaker 1: Shelley Danishowski's death when her parents refused to allow an autopsy. 441 00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:14,639 Speaker 1: Now they are Orthodox Jewish and as a result, the 442 00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:18,480 Speaker 1: faith does not permit autopsy. It took a investigators. Let 443 00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:20,679 Speaker 1: me understand something. Hold on just a moment, hold on, 444 00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:24,400 Speaker 1: art why is that? Why can't there be an autopsy? 445 00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:27,960 Speaker 1: As a bad jew who has done a little bit, uh, 446 00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:30,200 Speaker 1: you know, a studying way back. It goes back to 447 00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:34,000 Speaker 1: ancient times when it was not believed you should cut 448 00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:38,240 Speaker 1: on a body after after a death. And it's it's 449 00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:42,920 Speaker 1: an old Orthodox tradition, as is the thing that she 450 00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:48,840 Speaker 1: was supposed to quote get a Jewish divorce under Orthodox rules. Uh, 451 00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:52,560 Speaker 1: a wife has to get permission for a divorce. And 452 00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:55,880 Speaker 1: I think he protested that for quite a while. Well, 453 00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:57,400 Speaker 1: I thought he was the one that wanted to date 454 00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:00,560 Speaker 1: other people. Aren't How am I getting my wires crossed? Well? 455 00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:02,840 Speaker 1: He wanted to have it all. Well wait, wait, wait, 456 00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:05,800 Speaker 1: I think I understand it. He wants to date other 457 00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:10,600 Speaker 1: people and stay married and continue sucking the wealth out 458 00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:13,800 Speaker 1: of her estate like a tick. Is that right? She 459 00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:16,960 Speaker 1: was very successful as a banker Nancy, and had a mask, 460 00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:19,760 Speaker 1: apparently a nice nest egg. He didn't want to give 461 00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:21,560 Speaker 1: that up, but he wanted to play Backgammon two and 462 00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:24,640 Speaker 1: wanted to be kept, uh, you know, as a kept man. 463 00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:29,520 Speaker 1: So this is a reverse of the stereotype. Take a 464 00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:33,640 Speaker 1: look at the picture of Shelley right now, Shelley Denishevski. 465 00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:38,360 Speaker 1: I think she looks like Reese Witherspoon. Do you see 466 00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:42,000 Speaker 1: the picture of her with wearing the bangs. She's so 467 00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:46,920 Speaker 1: cute and so full of life, very pretty, the mother 468 00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:50,440 Speaker 1: of his children. He wants to stay married to her. 469 00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:53,120 Speaker 1: Then I thought he wanted to divorce her because he 470 00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:55,440 Speaker 1: wanted to date other people. So he wants to do 471 00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:57,960 Speaker 1: other people. She wants to divorce and then lo and 472 00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:01,720 Speaker 1: behold just before she changes her will. I guess that 473 00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:05,360 Speaker 1: would have ended his backgammon gaming days. She ends up 474 00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:10,080 Speaker 1: dead in the bathtub. Now, Larry Mayor, Crime Online investigative reporter, 475 00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:14,880 Speaker 1: So you were saying that because of her religion, that 476 00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:17,880 Speaker 1: her parents did not want an autopsy done, So okay, 477 00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:21,200 Speaker 1: then what happens? Right? It took investigators about three months 478 00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:25,440 Speaker 1: to convince them that there was evidence suggesting that perhaps 479 00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:28,560 Speaker 1: foul play was involved, and then that at that point 480 00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:32,680 Speaker 1: their parents that then the Denishevsky's gave permission for her 481 00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:36,560 Speaker 1: body to be exhumed and for an autopsy to be performed, 482 00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:40,480 Speaker 1: and during that autopsy, the coroner found a broken bone 483 00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:46,400 Speaker 1: in her neck, which suggested to him that the this 484 00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:48,320 Speaker 1: was a case of murder, not a case of an 485 00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:54,200 Speaker 1: accidental fall. One doesn't generally break that bone when falling. 486 00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:58,440 Speaker 1: It's usually a sign of strangulation or some sort of 487 00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:01,440 Speaker 1: trauma to the throat. Well, it was very convenient to 488 00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:05,720 Speaker 1: psychologist Dr Chloe Carmichael that when police arrived on the scene, 489 00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:10,080 Speaker 1: he the husband already had an explanation. He says, quote, 490 00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:13,360 Speaker 1: she was trying to grab something. A piece of wood 491 00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:15,960 Speaker 1: broke and she landed in the bathroom bathtub and hit 492 00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:20,120 Speaker 1: her head. He had it all explained for the police 493 00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:23,360 Speaker 1: when they got there. Dodgr Chloe, Yes, he certainly did. 494 00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:26,040 Speaker 1: It sounds like he put a lot of cognitive energy 495 00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:30,640 Speaker 1: into creating a narrative and he probably understood that an 496 00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:34,680 Speaker 1: autopsy would be unlikely because obviously he was familiar with 497 00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:38,080 Speaker 1: this with this culture, and so he was probably feeling 498 00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:41,600 Speaker 1: very powerful um as if he could really control and 499 00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:46,479 Speaker 1: totally objectify UM and completely control the situation. I'm so 500 00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:49,440 Speaker 1: glad that they did ultimately persuade the family to do 501 00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:54,640 Speaker 1: an autopsy. We'll catch this art Harris. It was right 502 00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:59,480 Speaker 1: down to the wire because the husband covelin. Uh, this 503 00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:03,400 Speaker 1: is big going on for some time. Just two months 504 00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:07,240 Speaker 1: before he was set to inherit her half of her 505 00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:11,480 Speaker 1: four million dollar fortune that she had amassed from her 506 00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:16,720 Speaker 1: own hard work. Just two months away from getting her fortune, 507 00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:21,000 Speaker 1: cops close in on him and he is charged with 508 00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:24,600 Speaker 1: what what He gets off the train in Scarsdale August 509 00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:27,400 Speaker 1: to go see his his kids, their kids. Uh, and 510 00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:31,080 Speaker 1: he's quite surprised that he is arrested. UH. And suddenly 511 00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:35,240 Speaker 1: with the clock ticking, when I guess the deal that 512 00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:38,760 Speaker 1: was made if he was not arrested or charged uh, 513 00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:42,400 Speaker 1: for six years after she died, he would get this money. 514 00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:45,440 Speaker 1: So two months to go, Nancy, and he was looking 515 00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:48,640 Speaker 1: at a nice either a hanukah or a Christmas gift, 516 00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:50,840 Speaker 1: which he did he has not gotten, will not get 517 00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:54,320 Speaker 1: now wait a minute, wait a minute. Larry Mayor Crime 518 00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:58,600 Speaker 1: Online investigative reporter. Isn't it true that his then girlfriend 519 00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:03,320 Speaker 1: go to police and gives them what they need to 520 00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:07,680 Speaker 1: indict him on charges? She says, he quote made statements 521 00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:11,640 Speaker 1: implicating himself and his wife's murder. Do we have any 522 00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:15,840 Speaker 1: idea what he said, Larry, I have not seen, uh 523 00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:20,280 Speaker 1: an explicit report of what she gave to investigators. But 524 00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:24,400 Speaker 1: it was one of his girl friends identified perhaps as 525 00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:28,760 Speaker 1: his chief girlfriend. And prosecutor's sake, Wait a man, Larry White, 526 00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:30,360 Speaker 1: A minute at White, a minutet, Wait a minute? Did 527 00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:33,000 Speaker 1: you just say this was his chief girlfriend? Are there 528 00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:36,560 Speaker 1: other girlfriends there were at the time at the time 529 00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:39,520 Speaker 1: of his wife's step Did I don't understand that he 530 00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:44,080 Speaker 1: had multiple girl friends? Dr? Chloe? What woman in her 531 00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:49,160 Speaker 1: right mind wants a man that a quits his job 532 00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:53,360 Speaker 1: to live off of his wife's income, b quits a 533 00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:59,520 Speaker 1: lucrative job in order to be a backgammon player, and 534 00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:02,360 Speaker 1: then has multiple girlfriends. Why would you want that in 535 00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:06,280 Speaker 1: your life? Well, Nancy, that's an interesting question. A lot 536 00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:10,520 Speaker 1: of times, actually, a sociopath can initially come across as 537 00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:14,879 Speaker 1: very charming and very charismatic. Um. You know, obviously this 538 00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:17,640 Speaker 1: man was able to convince his wife to marry him 539 00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:20,239 Speaker 1: in the first place. So I would be curious about 540 00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:24,959 Speaker 1: what kind of underlying sociopathy is really going on there. 541 00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:27,279 Speaker 1: And you know, to your point, why would a woman 542 00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:30,200 Speaker 1: be drawn to that um Again, a man like this 543 00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:33,719 Speaker 1: oftentimes can come across at first like a knight in 544 00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:38,200 Speaker 1: shining armor, very dazzling, larger than life. Also, I don't 545 00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:42,000 Speaker 1: know this woman, the chief girlfriend's personal background, but if 546 00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:45,000 Speaker 1: this man was presenting himself as a man with considerable 547 00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:48,760 Speaker 1: financial resources, that might have been very dazzling and almost 548 00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:52,960 Speaker 1: blinding to her. However, it's certainly to her credit that 549 00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:56,360 Speaker 1: once she realized that the situation was not what it seemed, 550 00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:59,080 Speaker 1: that she went right to the authorities. If that's what happened, 551 00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:02,480 Speaker 1: aren't us What do you know about another scheme he 552 00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:05,919 Speaker 1: allegedly was involved in, and that was trying to marry 553 00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:09,520 Speaker 1: his daughter off to quote a Mexican man I don't 554 00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:12,400 Speaker 1: know who the man is, in an attempt to collect 555 00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:15,960 Speaker 1: his daughter's part of the inheritance when she was just 556 00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:19,960 Speaker 1: thirteen years old. Each of the children would get the 557 00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:22,239 Speaker 1: other half of the money, which is a million dollar 558 00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:24,759 Speaker 1: eh is two million bucks. So he was trying to 559 00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:27,880 Speaker 1: marry his daughter off to some guy in an effort 560 00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:31,000 Speaker 1: to get her money, which he's just thirteen, Nancy. He 561 00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:33,200 Speaker 1: was a schemer and he's probably he was trying to 562 00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:37,160 Speaker 1: get a little advanced on his his crime in the making. 563 00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:40,360 Speaker 1: You know, this is someone who who was obviously devious 564 00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:42,839 Speaker 1: and had every angle figured it out, or at least 565 00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:44,839 Speaker 1: so we thought, But he was not as smart as 566 00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:49,799 Speaker 1: he thought. Oh, I just don't understand how he had 567 00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:53,200 Speaker 1: so many schemes going at one time in that one 568 00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:57,520 Speaker 1: brain of his. Back to you, Larry, Larry mayor joining us. 569 00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:01,480 Speaker 1: What more do we know? Well, Uh, one thing I 570 00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:04,240 Speaker 1: wanted to point out is that there is a way 571 00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:09,080 Speaker 1: to make money playing backgammon. Uh. It was not entirely 572 00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:11,399 Speaker 1: in jest when Alan pointed out that he was very 573 00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:14,439 Speaker 1: good at backgammon. He is considered one of the best 574 00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:18,640 Speaker 1: backgammon players in New York and backgammon as a game 575 00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:23,960 Speaker 1: comes with a gambling cube as one of its basically 576 00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:27,239 Speaker 1: basic pieces of equipment called a doubling cube, in which 577 00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:30,200 Speaker 1: the beat on each game can double with each roll 578 00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:33,800 Speaker 1: of the dice. So backgammon has been a gambling game 579 00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:37,480 Speaker 1: for thousands of years. So yes, there is a way 580 00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:39,840 Speaker 1: to do it. I'm not sure that he had discovered 581 00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:42,799 Speaker 1: a way to make money at it yet he was 582 00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:46,319 Speaker 1: at that point still living on his wife's money. It's 583 00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:51,280 Speaker 1: it's a it's considered a very high high end, high roller, 584 00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:56,319 Speaker 1: high society gambling game, favored by a lot of wealthy, 585 00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:59,560 Speaker 1: wealthy types, wealthy men. And what's the difference between this 586 00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:03,359 Speaker 1: and the stock market, which he which he was playing. Well, here, 587 00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:05,200 Speaker 1: you can control it a little more. You know, you 588 00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:07,960 Speaker 1: have your at least you've got the uh, the little 589 00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:11,279 Speaker 1: you know, pieces of dice or whatever the pieces are 590 00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:14,560 Speaker 1: that uh, And and you can calculate the odds of 591 00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:19,000 Speaker 1: stock market either. He's probably rely a an inside trader, 592 00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:23,040 Speaker 1: insider information type guy. Uh. And he liked he liked 593 00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:26,200 Speaker 1: more control if if if he controlled the crime scene, 594 00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:29,560 Speaker 1: he controlled the cops information. He's going to try to 595 00:37:29,560 --> 00:37:34,640 Speaker 1: control every aspect of this. Uh. This evil Okay, guys. 596 00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:38,600 Speaker 1: To Larry Mayor and Arn Harris, I appreciate the two 597 00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:43,160 Speaker 1: of you schooling me and backgammon, but in my mind, 598 00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:47,399 Speaker 1: it's just like every other gambling scenario because that's what 599 00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:49,840 Speaker 1: he was doing. This is not, as you said, you 600 00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:56,480 Speaker 1: have the chance role in backgammon, which is the gambling aspect. 601 00:37:57,320 --> 00:38:02,840 Speaker 1: Uh as as a former prosecutor, prosecuted everything from murder 602 00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:06,440 Speaker 1: to arsonto rico to gambling that ended up in murder. 603 00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:12,000 Speaker 1: So in my mind you may call it uh intellectual, 604 00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:18,080 Speaker 1: wealthy pursuit backgammon, but in my mind is gambling just 605 00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:21,360 Speaker 1: like everything else. And UH, you can put perfume on 606 00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:24,040 Speaker 1: the pig all you want to, but it still smells, 607 00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:26,439 Speaker 1: you know, Guys, I want to pause and thank our 608 00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:31,640 Speaker 1: partners today making our program possible. Everybody knows how much 609 00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:36,400 Speaker 1: I love our family dog, fat Boy street name Nitro, 610 00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:39,160 Speaker 1: and I'm always on the lookout for fun things to 611 00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:41,560 Speaker 1: do with fat Boy. Well, I found a new caller 612 00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:43,720 Speaker 1: I want to tell you about, and it is called 613 00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:46,719 Speaker 1: link a k C. And it's a lot more than 614 00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:50,000 Speaker 1: just a caller. 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His body was dry, which says to me 645 00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:43,920 Speaker 1: Dr Chloe, he didn't try to get her out of 646 00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:48,080 Speaker 1: the bathtub and save her. Well, of course not. Yeah, 647 00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:51,120 Speaker 1: it certainly sounds like, um, almost like some kind of 648 00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:54,040 Speaker 1: a a fantasy of his. Um, you know, with with 649 00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:57,080 Speaker 1: his gambling as you were discussing, and his propensity for 650 00:40:57,239 --> 00:41:00,400 Speaker 1: risk taking and seeing himself as as it's kind of 651 00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:06,359 Speaker 1: an omnipotent character with a lot of grandiose fantasies about himself. Um, 652 00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:08,680 Speaker 1: almost like this with some kind of a Jeames Bond 653 00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:12,440 Speaker 1: scenario that he had put together in mind, you know, 654 00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:15,920 Speaker 1: with with his poor wife as the victim. You know, 655 00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:20,080 Speaker 1: I will give you this, Larry and Art, he was 656 00:41:20,120 --> 00:41:24,839 Speaker 1: a pro. He even helped found the US Backgammon Federation. 657 00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:28,080 Speaker 1: Now what is that. I'll be honest, I don't know 658 00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:31,839 Speaker 1: about the US Backgammon Federation or what it stands for 659 00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:34,359 Speaker 1: or what it means that you're a co founder of it, 660 00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:38,120 Speaker 1: but you are right about that, Larry. He was well 661 00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:40,400 Speaker 1: will rooted in it. I just wonder if he was 662 00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:42,560 Speaker 1: making any money off of it or was he still 663 00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:47,560 Speaker 1: leeching off of her Larry? Well, as far as I know, 664 00:41:48,040 --> 00:41:51,759 Speaker 1: he was still in hopes of collecting at least part 665 00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:55,720 Speaker 1: of her estate when he was arrested. As aren't mentioned, 666 00:41:55,760 --> 00:41:58,600 Speaker 1: he had a deadline. He was two months away from 667 00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:01,840 Speaker 1: collecting two million dollars from her estate when he was 668 00:42:01,880 --> 00:42:05,800 Speaker 1: picked up at the train station to Scarsdale, UM after 669 00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:09,840 Speaker 1: blabbing to one of his girlfriends about it. So Uh, 670 00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:12,720 Speaker 1: as far as I can tell, he was still living 671 00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:17,479 Speaker 1: on her um income as a banker. Uh, even even 672 00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:21,080 Speaker 1: though she had been gone for some time. By that time, 673 00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:24,320 Speaker 1: the trust funds had been set up for their children, 674 00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:27,880 Speaker 1: so their children's inheritance had been protected at that point. 675 00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:31,440 Speaker 1: And as soon as he was arrested, her estate cut 676 00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:36,480 Speaker 1: him off cold, and her parents sued him for wrongful death. 677 00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:40,080 Speaker 1: Well there's another issue. Did you know this guy's Did 678 00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:43,560 Speaker 1: you know that, against the wishes of her family, he 679 00:42:43,719 --> 00:42:47,400 Speaker 1: tried to take her body and have it buried in 680 00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:55,480 Speaker 1: Israel And that the family went berserk, crying quote hysterically 681 00:42:55,920 --> 00:42:59,200 Speaker 1: when they saw that he was planning the words beloved 682 00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:03,560 Speaker 1: mother and life on her gravestone. Now, how can you 683 00:43:03,640 --> 00:43:07,480 Speaker 1: just take somebody at a child's mother's body to another 684 00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:12,440 Speaker 1: country and bury it. Alright, Harris, how does that work, Nancy? 685 00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:14,440 Speaker 1: He would have had to jump through a lot of hoops. 686 00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:16,640 Speaker 1: I have not heard of that. I mean, it's hard 687 00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:19,480 Speaker 1: enough to get a dead American out of a foreign 688 00:43:19,560 --> 00:43:24,320 Speaker 1: country back here to bury, versus bringing someone or exporting 689 00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:27,400 Speaker 1: a dead body to Israel. So I think that was 690 00:43:27,400 --> 00:43:31,080 Speaker 1: not going to be an overnight happening. They put this, 691 00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:34,840 Speaker 1: put a stop to that. And one on one other point, Nancy, 692 00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:38,320 Speaker 1: is that his lawyer claims that that didn't actually happen, 693 00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:41,960 Speaker 1: but the family has a different story. You know. Another issue. 694 00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:45,360 Speaker 1: I find it interesting, Larry Mayor that she was found 695 00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:48,920 Speaker 1: dead on New Year's Eve. Um. I don't know the 696 00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:51,319 Speaker 1: significance of that, but I really do think that that 697 00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:55,320 Speaker 1: is significant. And did you know that it was originally 698 00:43:55,480 --> 00:43:59,919 Speaker 1: ruled an accidental falling. Yes, the time though it would 699 00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:02,200 Speaker 1: and it's not like it was at the time when 700 00:44:02,239 --> 00:44:04,800 Speaker 1: people were out celebrating New Year's Eve. It happened that 701 00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:07,440 Speaker 1: are fairly early in the morning. Police arrived at the 702 00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:11,719 Speaker 1: apartment about seven. I think what threw the family over 703 00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:15,640 Speaker 1: the edge was him placing a stone marker on her 704 00:44:15,680 --> 00:44:19,000 Speaker 1: grave that read beloved mother and wife, despite the fact 705 00:44:19,040 --> 00:44:22,360 Speaker 1: that she had returned already obtained a get a religious 706 00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:25,840 Speaker 1: divorce from him before she was killed. But he still 707 00:44:25,920 --> 00:44:30,800 Speaker 1: had that on her her gravestone at which Westchester County 708 00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:35,719 Speaker 1: Cemetery to me, you know, to Dr Chloe Carmichael doing 709 00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:40,600 Speaker 1: that to her in death, you know, putting that marker there, 710 00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:43,600 Speaker 1: even after she had a restraining order against him, she 711 00:44:43,640 --> 00:44:47,080 Speaker 1: had gotten a religious divorce anyway, and was suing for 712 00:44:47,200 --> 00:44:51,080 Speaker 1: civil divorce as well. And that Jewish tradition you have 713 00:44:51,200 --> 00:44:53,759 Speaker 1: to get us art told us a get which is 714 00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:57,680 Speaker 1: a religious divorce and a civil divorce, and he still 715 00:44:57,760 --> 00:45:02,080 Speaker 1: did that, put that on her gravestone. Main that's awful, 716 00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:06,000 Speaker 1: Dr Chloe, Well, it certainly is. It's awful, and it 717 00:45:06,120 --> 00:45:10,560 Speaker 1: really just reeks of somebody who is extremely calculating. It 718 00:45:10,560 --> 00:45:13,800 Speaker 1: wouldn't surprise me if he wanted to get the body 719 00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:16,480 Speaker 1: out of the United States so that he could prevent 720 00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:20,880 Speaker 1: a scenario exactly like we're finally seeing now, which is 721 00:45:20,920 --> 00:45:24,680 Speaker 1: that an autopsy was somehow finally done. Um. It sounds 722 00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:28,040 Speaker 1: like a man who's very, very concerned with outward appearances, 723 00:45:28,560 --> 00:45:31,560 Speaker 1: who has a lot of fantasies about himself and power, 724 00:45:32,040 --> 00:45:35,880 Speaker 1: and so if he could arrange for this burial to occur, 725 00:45:36,520 --> 00:45:39,840 Speaker 1: that actually somehow painted him as a victim, as a 726 00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:43,960 Speaker 1: loving husband who had lost his beautiful wife. It really 727 00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:47,840 Speaker 1: sounds like a calculated move to me. And aren't what 728 00:45:47,880 --> 00:45:51,040 Speaker 1: do you know about the fact that in April he 729 00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:55,080 Speaker 1: filed papers at Westchester County Surrogate Court asking to be 730 00:45:55,160 --> 00:45:59,440 Speaker 1: named guardian of an ETNA life policy his wife had 731 00:45:59,640 --> 00:46:03,560 Speaker 1: and the she had left it for Anna and Miles. Who, um, 732 00:46:03,920 --> 00:46:07,640 Speaker 1: we're about nine and five at that time, Nancy. This 733 00:46:07,719 --> 00:46:11,000 Speaker 1: is in keeping with someone who is looking for every 734 00:46:11,040 --> 00:46:16,320 Speaker 1: loophole and would even use the Jewish religion as a 735 00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:19,160 Speaker 1: loophole to get a body out, uh, you know, the 736 00:46:19,640 --> 00:46:22,280 Speaker 1: get divorced, to try to get around all these things 737 00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:25,000 Speaker 1: his wife had put in place, and he was trying 738 00:46:25,040 --> 00:46:26,799 Speaker 1: to get away from him. He was a violent guy, 739 00:46:27,280 --> 00:46:30,520 Speaker 1: had just filed restraining order against him. So the clock 740 00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:32,799 Speaker 1: was ticking. You asked about why New Year's Eve he 741 00:46:32,840 --> 00:46:37,080 Speaker 1: didn't have much much time to pull this off. He 742 00:46:37,160 --> 00:46:41,080 Speaker 1: knew and I think that that led to this cascading 743 00:46:41,239 --> 00:46:44,520 Speaker 1: of events, and probably he made he made this mistake 744 00:46:44,560 --> 00:46:48,680 Speaker 1: about about not getting wet when he when he put 745 00:46:48,719 --> 00:46:51,760 Speaker 1: the body in the tub. So where does that stand 746 00:46:51,880 --> 00:46:56,279 Speaker 1: right now, Larry Mayor. This case was in court a 747 00:46:56,320 --> 00:47:00,759 Speaker 1: few weeks ago for a emotion's hearing. They're still in 748 00:47:00,880 --> 00:47:06,359 Speaker 1: pre trial motions at this time and prosecutors are still 749 00:47:07,160 --> 00:47:10,960 Speaker 1: putting together their case to take to a trial court. 750 00:47:11,480 --> 00:47:13,919 Speaker 1: I don't know that the trial date has been set yet, 751 00:47:14,239 --> 00:47:18,840 Speaker 1: so the case is heading to trial. To aarn Harris prediction, 752 00:47:19,560 --> 00:47:22,200 Speaker 1: I think his his backgammon game is about to come 753 00:47:22,239 --> 00:47:24,120 Speaker 1: to an end, Nancy, unless he can find anybody in 754 00:47:24,160 --> 00:47:28,160 Speaker 1: prison who who plays. And that's doubtful because it's a 755 00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:32,600 Speaker 1: different a different social strata, shall we say so? Uh. 756 00:47:33,080 --> 00:47:36,919 Speaker 1: The mother was thrilled that they finally made an arrest 757 00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:40,200 Speaker 1: made the charges. Her divorce lawyer. It did not surprise 758 00:47:40,320 --> 00:47:43,560 Speaker 1: him when he learned that his client had had been killed. 759 00:47:43,600 --> 00:47:47,720 Speaker 1: He immediately thought that the husband did it. Nancy Grace 760 00:47:47,760 --> 00:47:50,600 Speaker 1: Crime Story, signing off Goodbye. F