WEBVTT - Minisode: Underwater Murder with Jenny Mollen and Jason Biggs

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<v Speaker 1>You're listening to a new segment of Dear Chelsea. Call

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<v Speaker 1>it Couple's Counseling with Chelsea, where we do couples counseling

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<v Speaker 1>on all sorts of variations of friends, lovers, families. I'm

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<v Speaker 1>here with my friends Jenny Mullen and Jason Biggs, and

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<v Speaker 1>we are going to do some couples counseling. Welcome to

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<v Speaker 1>my office. Okay, we're back this week with Jenny Mullen

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<v Speaker 1>and Jason Biggs. I would love for you guys, this

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<v Speaker 1>is week three, okay of our therapy session. I would

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<v Speaker 1>like you to regale us with the story about when

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<v Speaker 1>you guys went scuba diving and you thought Jason was

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<v Speaker 1>getting murdered under underwater.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay.

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<v Speaker 3>So we were getting our advanced certification or open water

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<v Speaker 3>Advanced Diving certification, and we were in Maui and I

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<v Speaker 3>noticed the instructor. We were on a dive, a beach dive,

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<v Speaker 3>and I noticed the instructor getting like dangerously like close

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<v Speaker 3>to Jason, like almost like a crawling on his back,

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<v Speaker 3>and he starts to like screw something. I am convinced

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<v Speaker 3>that this guy is turning off Jason's air.

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<v Speaker 1>So why wouldn't you think he was helping him.

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<v Speaker 4>Looked sus It really did not.

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<v Speaker 3>Look normal, okay, and the guy already was like shady

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<v Speaker 3>to me. So like I already had questions about him

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<v Speaker 3>going in. And when I saw him mount.

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<v Speaker 1>Jason, was it a mount or did it become a

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<v Speaker 1>mount over time?

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<v Speaker 4>It was like a full mount onto Jason's It's.

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<v Speaker 1>Not unusual for your scuba guide or diamaster to be

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<v Speaker 1>adjusting things on your tank.

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<v Speaker 4>This was like a full mount.

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<v Speaker 3>And I, I don't know, I just like survival instinct

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<v Speaker 3>kicked in and I instead of like going towards Jason,

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<v Speaker 3>my survival instinct kicked in. Instead of going towards Jason

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<v Speaker 3>and like really sussing out the situation or kind of

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<v Speaker 3>checking out like what exactly was being pulled on, I.

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<v Speaker 4>Did a U turn in the water and as fast

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<v Speaker 4>as I.

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<v Speaker 1>Could to shore because you thought you were murder victim

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<v Speaker 1>number two and that after he kills Jason, it was me.

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<v Speaker 3>I mean I've seen that dateline where the couple goes

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<v Speaker 3>to Hawaii.

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<v Speaker 4>And like you know, on the instructor comes back.

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<v Speaker 1>And so instead of helping your husband, were you guys

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<v Speaker 1>married at the time or just you were married. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>because you guys got married pretty quickly. Yes, right? How

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<v Speaker 1>many months were you dating? Nine months?

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<v Speaker 4>And then yeah?

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<v Speaker 3>And then I swam back to shore and Jason was like,

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<v Speaker 3>where are you going?

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<v Speaker 4>Surfaced? He was like, where were you going? And I said, well.

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<v Speaker 3>It's just swimming through my life.

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<v Speaker 2>I thought he was killing you.

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<v Speaker 4>I thought that you were done.

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<v Speaker 5>At which point it dawned on me. If you thought that,

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<v Speaker 5>why didn't you come and help me? We would I

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<v Speaker 5>have done?

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<v Speaker 3>To be honest, if let's just say the guy was

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<v Speaker 3>murdering Jason, what would I have really?

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<v Speaker 1>What was the timeframe that you saw this and that

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<v Speaker 1>you were out of the water.

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<v Speaker 4>I turned pretty quick. A minute he mounted Jason, I

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<v Speaker 4>was like, full breaststroke. Michael Phelps sing it back to.

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<v Speaker 1>And what was your reaction Jason when you got back?

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<v Speaker 1>Because I know you also when scuba diving, you're more

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<v Speaker 1>in charge. Like you You're very organized. It's a lot

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<v Speaker 1>like you're packing right, You're he's helping everyone, You.

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<v Speaker 4>Like adjusting my goggles. I'm like, I'm fine, get off,

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<v Speaker 4>let me go it this way.

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<v Speaker 5>I would say nine out of ten people who scuba

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<v Speaker 5>dive with me want me to be their dive buddy

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<v Speaker 5>one out of ten is Jenny.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, like, get off of me, let me live my life.

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<v Speaker 1>Do you guys ever scuba dive holding hands like like.

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<v Speaker 4>I did with the dive we have we're very competitive.

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<v Speaker 3>So it's like if you know, we hold hands, but

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<v Speaker 3>like I need to be like on the deeper side.

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<v Speaker 1>You're very competitive with him?

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<v Speaker 3>Are we have more air left at the We like

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<v Speaker 3>to look, we like to look, but he always sucks.

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<v Speaker 2>It's not even a competition for me anymore.

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<v Speaker 5>It's more by the way when we say we're competitive,

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<v Speaker 5>it's more it goes this way.

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<v Speaker 4>He always says that. But our couples therapist thinks you're

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<v Speaker 4>just as competitive, does she?

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, I'm going to actually counsel with her after this.

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<v Speaker 1>How do you see that he's competitive.

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<v Speaker 4>With you in a parenting way? For sure?

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<v Speaker 3>Okay, but in scuba, in scuba, in tennis, and it's

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<v Speaker 3>just he's a bit of a know it all.

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<v Speaker 4>So, for instance, I'll give you a great example the

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<v Speaker 4>other day.

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<v Speaker 5>But if I'm better at certain things, that doesn't mean

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<v Speaker 5>I'm competitive. It just means I'm better at them. He likes,

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<v Speaker 5>he likes out. She's like, it's interesting that you're choosing

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<v Speaker 5>tennis or things.

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<v Speaker 3>That, like I was talking about sports, but now I'll

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<v Speaker 3>do another one parenting, or he likes to point out

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<v Speaker 3>when I've like not.

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<v Speaker 4>Done something correct. So for instance, I think we were

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<v Speaker 4>in LA and I.

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<v Speaker 3>Ordered something on Postmates, and you know, you get that

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<v Speaker 3>notification on your phone that says, like your order whatever

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<v Speaker 3>you think it's a your order's been delivered. So a

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<v Speaker 3>notification comes up. I don't see it. It's not like

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<v Speaker 3>scrolling at the top, and the phone's kind of locked.

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<v Speaker 3>The next morning, I go downstairs, I'm like, oh, I

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<v Speaker 3>saw the I have an order down here. Something came

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<v Speaker 3>up on my phone and the guy's like, no, nothing

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<v Speaker 3>was delivered.

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<v Speaker 4>So I was like, that's so weird. I got a

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<v Speaker 4>notification for Postpace.

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<v Speaker 3>I look and it said, actually, your order's been canceled,

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<v Speaker 3>so it's not there. So we get into the elevator

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<v Speaker 3>and Jason's like, so, I guess you never got a

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<v Speaker 3>notification saying that it was delivered.

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<v Speaker 4>It's like, why the fuck did you have to say

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<v Speaker 4>that to me?

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<v Speaker 3>Now when we're alone, like a little bit of like

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<v Speaker 3>a finger wag in my face.

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<v Speaker 2>There's a lot of that, And that was in the

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<v Speaker 2>middle of a fight already.

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<v Speaker 3>Actually it was it because I said, baby, you don't

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<v Speaker 3>say that, and you're like, Okay, you're sorry.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm sorry. I shouldn't have said that.

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<v Speaker 4>But you can't help yourself, is what I'm saying. You

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<v Speaker 4>have this like but I don't know the ability like hetitive.

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<v Speaker 3>It's this idea that like, you need to be like

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<v Speaker 3>the good kid, you need to be the one who's

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<v Speaker 3>always right there. It's there is a there's an element

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<v Speaker 3>of that that is like.

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<v Speaker 1>But you have a very competitive nature with your husband.

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<v Speaker 1>That's not doesn't apply to every couple. I mean, do

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<v Speaker 1>you meet any other couples with your same dynamic.

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<v Speaker 2>No, but I.

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<v Speaker 4>Don't know that I was.

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<v Speaker 3>I think it's something about the two of us because

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<v Speaker 3>we both want to be right. We both want to

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<v Speaker 3>be the good kid, we both want to be the

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<v Speaker 3>best parent, we both want to get it right, we

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<v Speaker 3>want to be the a student.

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<v Speaker 4>And I don't know.

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<v Speaker 3>That like I was ever with somebody that had that

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<v Speaker 3>same trait. So this really brings that out, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>because we're both trying so hard. It's why I think

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<v Speaker 3>we'll always be married, because we both want to get

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<v Speaker 3>it right and we're committed to getting it right.

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<v Speaker 1>I like that. That's nice for couples to hear.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you're not wrong.

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<v Speaker 5>I agree, there is that when it comes to life stuff, parenting,

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<v Speaker 5>et cetera.

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<v Speaker 2>You're you're right, Jenny.

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<v Speaker 5>I will say, though, on the professional front, it's different

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<v Speaker 5>because I came into the relationship having already had achieved

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<v Speaker 5>a certain level of success that you hadn't yet achieved.

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<v Speaker 5>And you came into the relationship with a family of

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<v Speaker 5>origin situation, meaning your dad being this larger than life

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<v Speaker 5>guy that you were and still are competitive with, So

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<v Speaker 5>it tracks more on that. No, really, I'm not saying

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<v Speaker 5>that in like a negative This is stuff she talks

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<v Speaker 5>about as well, Like I don't come with that, say, like,

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<v Speaker 5>when it comes to work stuff, I don't have the

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<v Speaker 5>need to get the validation or to sort of show

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<v Speaker 5>or like like I don't present it in the same

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<v Speaker 5>way that Jenny presents it or in my opinion, needs.

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<v Speaker 2>It to land in the same way.

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<v Speaker 5>Like I think there is a resentment that Jenny has

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<v Speaker 5>towards me simply because we've talked about this, simply because

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<v Speaker 5>of the position that I had coming into the relationship,

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<v Speaker 5>you know, and it's not a coincidence. I think that

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<v Speaker 5>she found somebody who you know, she r.

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<v Speaker 3>No, you're psychoanalyzing me, which wasn't really even we're.

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<v Speaker 2>Talking about the competitive nature of.

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<v Speaker 4>Or going to the easy place of it.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, well, I think it's well where.

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<v Speaker 1>Would you prefer?

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<v Speaker 3>Though?

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<v Speaker 1>Where would you prefer?

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<v Speaker 3>He went, Well, I think that there's also an element

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<v Speaker 3>of like it's like his mom's learning Italian, and I

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<v Speaker 3>think that it bothers him.

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<v Speaker 4>There's something that triggers him about like he.

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<v Speaker 3>Thinks whenever anyone wants to like show off or do

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<v Speaker 3>something in a certain way.

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<v Speaker 4>He has a need to like put you in your

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<v Speaker 4>place a little. Yeah, you feel it's historical.

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<v Speaker 3>I don't think it's necessarily about me, but I do

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<v Speaker 3>think that it plays out with me.

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<v Speaker 4>So I do think that when he sees.

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<v Speaker 1>Me being.

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<v Speaker 3>Competitive or activated by something, it triggers a family of

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<v Speaker 3>origin issue for him that really isn't Oftentimes, I think

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<v Speaker 3>that our stuff gets enmeshed in a way that really

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<v Speaker 3>isn't about the other person, and that's true of all couples.

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<v Speaker 3>I think that when you're smart, when you're fighting, it's

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<v Speaker 3>like you're in your shit and they're in their shit

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<v Speaker 3>and it just looks it looks the same, but it's not.

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<v Speaker 4>That's not actually, you know, I'm not his mom, he's

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<v Speaker 4>not my dad.

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<v Speaker 1>What do you think about that, Jason.

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<v Speaker 5>She's right that obviously I have a reaction to that.

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<v Speaker 5>That was the part I hadn't gotten to, Like, I

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<v Speaker 5>think there is one of us brings something to the table.

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<v Speaker 5>In this case, Jenny brings her competitiveness with her dad.

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<v Speaker 5>But it does bring up a reaction to me that

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<v Speaker 5>probably has nothing to do with Jenny. She's right, you know,

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<v Speaker 5>and vice versa. I'll bring something to the table that

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<v Speaker 5>triggers Jenny. And it's not about my actions so much

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<v Speaker 5>as it is about, Oh, it feels like it's sad.

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<v Speaker 5>You know, it looks the same, and actually that's exactly.

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<v Speaker 5>I mean, that's all couples. That's all couples, and that's

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<v Speaker 5>the thing. It's like, I am not your dad. But

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<v Speaker 5>like when you know, we got married, it felt in

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<v Speaker 5>a lot of ways that dynamic of being in my shadow,

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<v Speaker 5>if you will, Jason Biggs's wife, all of the things

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<v Speaker 5>that you know, my plus one, all of that stuff,

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<v Speaker 5>it it goes you can take that shit that she

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<v Speaker 5>was dealing with in the early stages of our relationship

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<v Speaker 5>and still deals with and just go and go back

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<v Speaker 5>a couple of years and see that it's a similar

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<v Speaker 5>thing to how she was dealing with her dad. When

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<v Speaker 5>I'm triggered, It's like I'm reacting the same way for

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<v Speaker 5>sure that I reacted when my mom said something when

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<v Speaker 5>I was living at home, And I'm like, what the

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<v Speaker 5>fuck is that? It's the same feeling for sure, And

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<v Speaker 5>we're having a hard time, Like we've been with the

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<v Speaker 5>same therapists for seventeen years, since before.

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<v Speaker 2>We got married.

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<v Speaker 5>And we were married nine months, so to tell you,

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<v Speaker 5>you know what I mean, Like she has been with

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<v Speaker 5>us before we even knew each other. And now it

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<v Speaker 5>goes like this in terms of our abilities to recognize

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<v Speaker 5>these triggers and take a step back before we get

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<v Speaker 5>into a fight, like seeing that we're being triggered and

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<v Speaker 5>go oh, okay.

0:10:37.360 --> 0:10:38.480
<v Speaker 2>And we're like in a place.

0:10:38.320 --> 0:10:40.360
<v Speaker 5>Right now where we need where it just happened to

0:10:40.559 --> 0:10:43.760
<v Speaker 5>Like we're getting caught up in our triggers more than usual.

0:10:44.040 --> 0:10:45.040
<v Speaker 2>We're both very busy.

0:10:45.080 --> 0:10:47.840
<v Speaker 5>I think we're parenting is fucking hard, the hardest thing

0:10:47.880 --> 0:10:51.000
<v Speaker 5>we've ever done. And all of these sort of external

0:10:51.040 --> 0:10:53.840
<v Speaker 5>factors have now made it harder for us to all

0:10:53.920 --> 0:10:55.560
<v Speaker 5>the work that we've done and all the tools that

0:10:55.600 --> 0:10:58.400
<v Speaker 5>we've paid for quite a lot of money.

0:10:58.120 --> 0:10:59.840
<v Speaker 1>For yes, seventeen years worth of therapy.

0:11:00.840 --> 0:11:02.640
<v Speaker 2>Is like we're forgetting them.

0:11:03.000 --> 0:11:05.439
<v Speaker 5>We're forgetting them, or we're just not accessing them, or

0:11:05.480 --> 0:11:07.200
<v Speaker 5>we don't want to access them because we're back to

0:11:07.200 --> 0:11:09.120
<v Speaker 5>wanting to be right again for some reason.

0:11:09.240 --> 0:11:11.199
<v Speaker 4>Right now, it's not even that we want to be right.

0:11:11.240 --> 0:11:13.400
<v Speaker 3>We want to be considered because I think that there's

0:11:13.440 --> 0:11:15.120
<v Speaker 3>a a thing with Jason and I were we were

0:11:15.120 --> 0:11:18.320
<v Speaker 3>both like codependence to like a narcissistic parent, right, And

0:11:18.400 --> 0:11:21.240
<v Speaker 3>so we want to be heard and we want like

0:11:21.280 --> 0:11:23.840
<v Speaker 3>to be prioritizing, and so it's hard for us to

0:11:24.000 --> 0:11:26.800
<v Speaker 3>like it's like you can go first. It's your dime,

0:11:26.880 --> 0:11:28.840
<v Speaker 3>you go first, right, And it's so hard to like

0:11:28.920 --> 0:11:30.360
<v Speaker 3>allow that other person to go first.

0:11:30.440 --> 0:11:32.360
<v Speaker 2>I think a lot of giving this problem to our

0:11:32.400 --> 0:11:33.480
<v Speaker 2>narcissistic parent.

0:11:33.520 --> 0:11:35.120
<v Speaker 3>Where you go, I'm going to let you go first,

0:11:35.200 --> 0:11:36.760
<v Speaker 3>and I'm not going to bring up my shit right now,

0:11:36.800 --> 0:11:38.679
<v Speaker 3>I'm going a whole day and I don't need to say,

0:11:38.720 --> 0:11:41.520
<v Speaker 3>but what about me? And that's a discipline that you

0:11:41.600 --> 0:11:44.400
<v Speaker 3>like have to learn in a relationship to not say,

0:11:44.679 --> 0:11:46.440
<v Speaker 3>but what about me right now? It's like save it

0:11:46.440 --> 0:11:49.880
<v Speaker 3>for later, let them have it, be generous enough to

0:11:49.960 --> 0:11:52.520
<v Speaker 3>like let them make it, make it about them, to

0:11:52.600 --> 0:11:55.280
<v Speaker 3>sort of like help them heal that shit and then

0:11:55.480 --> 0:11:57.640
<v Speaker 3>get your own needs met later. When you both want

0:11:57.679 --> 0:11:59.679
<v Speaker 3>to go at the same time, it never works.

0:11:59.760 --> 0:12:02.800
<v Speaker 5>But even when we're able to do that, we're not

0:12:02.800 --> 0:12:06.760
<v Speaker 5>always able to do it with empathy. Like we're like, okay, fine,

0:12:06.760 --> 0:12:09.120
<v Speaker 5>you know what you go, you go, you go, well,

0:12:09.280 --> 0:12:11.480
<v Speaker 5>but when you're ready, I'll go myself. It's like that's

0:12:11.520 --> 0:12:13.200
<v Speaker 5>also not how to do it. It's like, but like

0:12:13.240 --> 0:12:15.920
<v Speaker 5>props to me, I stopped. Okay, you go your dime.

0:12:16.240 --> 0:12:17.880
<v Speaker 5>But it's all in tone, it's all in how you

0:12:17.880 --> 0:12:19.840
<v Speaker 5>do it. We're not doing it with empathy. Then it's

0:12:19.840 --> 0:12:20.800
<v Speaker 5>like fuck you, I don't want.

0:12:21.600 --> 0:12:22.680
<v Speaker 2>To right exactly.

0:12:22.840 --> 0:12:26.160
<v Speaker 1>That can become competitive too exactly. Okay, Well, on that note,

0:12:26.200 --> 0:12:28.520
<v Speaker 1>that's the We're gonna wrap up this episode of Jenny

0:12:28.520 --> 0:12:32.760
<v Speaker 1>and Jason and then we'll be back for episode four. Okay,

0:12:32.840 --> 0:12:35.040
<v Speaker 1>so you can check out Jenny mull and substack the

0:12:35.080 --> 0:12:38.480
<v Speaker 1>Best Friend Experience and her new side hustle, The Shirts

0:12:38.480 --> 0:12:41.280
<v Speaker 1>off my Back where you can buy fabulous vintage clothes,

0:12:41.440 --> 0:12:43.320
<v Speaker 1>and you can also check out Jenny and Jason co

0:12:43.400 --> 0:12:45.760
<v Speaker 1>hosting Dinner in a Movie on TBS