Speaker 1: You're listening to a new segment of Dear Chelsea. Call
Speaker 1: it Couple's Counseling with Chelsea, where we do couples counseling
Speaker 1: on all sorts of variations of friends, lovers, families. I'm
Speaker 1: here with my friends Jenny Mullen and Jason Biggs, and
Speaker 1: we are going to do some couples counseling. Welcome to
Speaker 1: my office. Okay, we're back this week with Jenny Mullen
Speaker 1: and Jason Biggs. I would love for you guys, this
Speaker 1: is week three, okay of our therapy session. I would
Speaker 1: like you to regale us with the story about when
Speaker 1: you guys went scuba diving and you thought Jason was
Speaker 1: getting murdered under underwater.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 3: So we were getting our advanced certification or open water
Speaker 3: Advanced Diving certification, and we were in Maui and I
Speaker 3: noticed the instructor. We were on a dive, a beach dive,
Speaker 3: and I noticed the instructor getting like dangerously like close
Speaker 3: to Jason, like almost like a crawling on his back,
Speaker 3: and he starts to like screw something. I am convinced
Speaker 3: that this guy is turning off Jason's air.
Speaker 1: So why wouldn't you think he was helping him.
Speaker 4: Looked sus It really did not.
Speaker 3: Look normal, okay, and the guy already was like shady
Speaker 3: to me. So like I already had questions about him
Speaker 3: going in. And when I saw him mount.
Speaker 1: Jason, was it a mount or did it become a
Speaker 1: mount over time?
Speaker 4: It was like a full mount onto Jason's It's.
Speaker 1: Not unusual for your scuba guide or diamaster to be
Speaker 1: adjusting things on your tank.
Speaker 4: This was like a full mount.
Speaker 3: And I, I don't know, I just like survival instinct
Speaker 3: kicked in and I instead of like going towards Jason,
Speaker 3: my survival instinct kicked in. Instead of going towards Jason
Speaker 3: and like really sussing out the situation or kind of
Speaker 3: checking out like what exactly was being pulled on, I.
Speaker 4: Did a U turn in the water and as fast
Speaker 4: as I.
Speaker 1: Could to shore because you thought you were murder victim
Speaker 1: number two and that after he kills Jason, it was me.
Speaker 3: I mean I've seen that dateline where the couple goes
Speaker 3: to Hawaii.
Speaker 4: And like you know, on the instructor comes back.
Speaker 1: And so instead of helping your husband, were you guys
Speaker 1: married at the time or just you were married. Yeah,
Speaker 1: because you guys got married pretty quickly. Yes, right? How
Speaker 1: many months were you dating? Nine months?
Speaker 4: And then yeah?
Speaker 3: And then I swam back to shore and Jason was like,
Speaker 3: where are you going?
Speaker 4: Surfaced? He was like, where were you going? And I said, well.
Speaker 3: It's just swimming through my life.
Speaker 2: I thought he was killing you.
Speaker 4: I thought that you were done.
Speaker 5: At which point it dawned on me. If you thought that,
Speaker 5: why didn't you come and help me? We would I
Speaker 5: have done?
Speaker 3: To be honest, if let's just say the guy was
Speaker 3: murdering Jason, what would I have really?
Speaker 1: What was the timeframe that you saw this and that
Speaker 1: you were out of the water.
Speaker 4: I turned pretty quick. A minute he mounted Jason, I
Speaker 4: was like, full breaststroke. Michael Phelps sing it back to.
Speaker 1: And what was your reaction Jason when you got back?
Speaker 1: Because I know you also when scuba diving, you're more
Speaker 1: in charge. Like you You're very organized. It's a lot
Speaker 1: like you're packing right, You're he's helping everyone, You.
Speaker 4: Like adjusting my goggles. I'm like, I'm fine, get off,
Speaker 4: let me go it this way.
Speaker 5: I would say nine out of ten people who scuba
Speaker 5: dive with me want me to be their dive buddy
Speaker 5: one out of ten is Jenny.
Speaker 4: Yeah, like, get off of me, let me live my life.
Speaker 1: Do you guys ever scuba dive holding hands like like.
Speaker 4: I did with the dive we have we're very competitive.
Speaker 3: So it's like if you know, we hold hands, but
Speaker 3: like I need to be like on the deeper side.
Speaker 1: You're very competitive with him?
Speaker 3: Are we have more air left at the We like
Speaker 3: to look, we like to look, but he always sucks.
Speaker 2: It's not even a competition for me anymore.
Speaker 5: It's more by the way when we say we're competitive,
Speaker 5: it's more it goes this way.
Speaker 4: He always says that. But our couples therapist thinks you're
Speaker 4: just as competitive, does she?
Speaker 1: Yes, I'm going to actually counsel with her after this.
Speaker 1: How do you see that he's competitive.
Speaker 4: With you in a parenting way? For sure?
Speaker 3: Okay, but in scuba, in scuba, in tennis, and it's
Speaker 3: just he's a bit of a know it all.
Speaker 4: So, for instance, I'll give you a great example the
Speaker 4: other day.
Speaker 5: But if I'm better at certain things, that doesn't mean
Speaker 5: I'm competitive. It just means I'm better at them. He likes,
Speaker 5: he likes out. She's like, it's interesting that you're choosing
Speaker 5: tennis or things.
Speaker 3: That, like I was talking about sports, but now I'll
Speaker 3: do another one parenting, or he likes to point out
Speaker 3: when I've like not.
Speaker 4: Done something correct. So for instance, I think we were
Speaker 4: in LA and I.
Speaker 3: Ordered something on Postmates, and you know, you get that
Speaker 3: notification on your phone that says, like your order whatever
Speaker 3: you think it's a your order's been delivered. So a
Speaker 3: notification comes up. I don't see it. It's not like
Speaker 3: scrolling at the top, and the phone's kind of locked.
Speaker 3: The next morning, I go downstairs, I'm like, oh, I
Speaker 3: saw the I have an order down here. Something came
Speaker 3: up on my phone and the guy's like, no, nothing
Speaker 3: was delivered.
Speaker 4: So I was like, that's so weird. I got a
Speaker 4: notification for Postpace.
Speaker 3: I look and it said, actually, your order's been canceled,
Speaker 3: so it's not there. So we get into the elevator
Speaker 3: and Jason's like, so, I guess you never got a
Speaker 3: notification saying that it was delivered.
Speaker 4: It's like, why the fuck did you have to say
Speaker 4: that to me?
Speaker 3: Now when we're alone, like a little bit of like
Speaker 3: a finger wag in my face.
Speaker 2: There's a lot of that, And that was in the
Speaker 2: middle of a fight already.
Speaker 3: Actually it was it because I said, baby, you don't
Speaker 3: say that, and you're like, Okay, you're sorry.
Speaker 2: I'm sorry. I shouldn't have said that.
Speaker 4: But you can't help yourself, is what I'm saying. You
Speaker 4: have this like but I don't know the ability like hetitive.
Speaker 3: It's this idea that like, you need to be like
Speaker 3: the good kid, you need to be the one who's
Speaker 3: always right there. It's there is a there's an element
Speaker 3: of that that is like.
Speaker 1: But you have a very competitive nature with your husband.
Speaker 1: That's not doesn't apply to every couple. I mean, do
Speaker 1: you meet any other couples with your same dynamic.
Speaker 2: No, but I.
Speaker 4: Don't know that I was.
Speaker 3: I think it's something about the two of us because
Speaker 3: we both want to be right. We both want to
Speaker 3: be the good kid, we both want to be the
Speaker 3: best parent, we both want to get it right, we
Speaker 3: want to be the a student.
Speaker 4: And I don't know.
Speaker 3: That like I was ever with somebody that had that
Speaker 3: same trait. So this really brings that out, you know,
Speaker 3: because we're both trying so hard. It's why I think
Speaker 3: we'll always be married, because we both want to get
Speaker 3: it right and we're committed to getting it right.
Speaker 1: I like that. That's nice for couples to hear.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're not wrong.
Speaker 5: I agree, there is that when it comes to life stuff, parenting,
Speaker 5: et cetera.
Speaker 2: You're you're right, Jenny.
Speaker 5: I will say, though, on the professional front, it's different
Speaker 5: because I came into the relationship having already had achieved
Speaker 5: a certain level of success that you hadn't yet achieved.
Speaker 5: And you came into the relationship with a family of
Speaker 5: origin situation, meaning your dad being this larger than life
Speaker 5: guy that you were and still are competitive with, So
Speaker 5: it tracks more on that. No, really, I'm not saying
Speaker 5: that in like a negative This is stuff she talks
Speaker 5: about as well, Like I don't come with that, say, like,
Speaker 5: when it comes to work stuff, I don't have the
Speaker 5: need to get the validation or to sort of show
Speaker 5: or like like I don't present it in the same
Speaker 5: way that Jenny presents it or in my opinion, needs.
Speaker 2: It to land in the same way.
Speaker 5: Like I think there is a resentment that Jenny has
Speaker 5: towards me simply because we've talked about this, simply because
Speaker 5: of the position that I had coming into the relationship,
Speaker 5: you know, and it's not a coincidence. I think that
Speaker 5: she found somebody who you know, she r.
Speaker 3: No, you're psychoanalyzing me, which wasn't really even we're.
Speaker 2: Talking about the competitive nature of.
Speaker 4: Or going to the easy place of it.
Speaker 2: Okay, well, I think it's well where.
Speaker 1: Would you prefer?
Speaker 3: Though?
Speaker 1: Where would you prefer?
Speaker 3: He went, Well, I think that there's also an element
Speaker 3: of like it's like his mom's learning Italian, and I
Speaker 3: think that it bothers him.
Speaker 4: There's something that triggers him about like he.
Speaker 3: Thinks whenever anyone wants to like show off or do
Speaker 3: something in a certain way.
Speaker 4: He has a need to like put you in your
Speaker 4: place a little. Yeah, you feel it's historical.
Speaker 3: I don't think it's necessarily about me, but I do
Speaker 3: think that it plays out with me.
Speaker 4: So I do think that when he sees.
Speaker 1: Me being.
Speaker 3: Competitive or activated by something, it triggers a family of
Speaker 3: origin issue for him that really isn't Oftentimes, I think
Speaker 3: that our stuff gets enmeshed in a way that really
Speaker 3: isn't about the other person, and that's true of all couples.
Speaker 3: I think that when you're smart, when you're fighting, it's
Speaker 3: like you're in your shit and they're in their shit
Speaker 3: and it just looks it looks the same, but it's not.
Speaker 4: That's not actually, you know, I'm not his mom, he's
Speaker 4: not my dad.
Speaker 1: What do you think about that, Jason.
Speaker 5: She's right that obviously I have a reaction to that.
Speaker 5: That was the part I hadn't gotten to, Like, I
Speaker 5: think there is one of us brings something to the table.
Speaker 5: In this case, Jenny brings her competitiveness with her dad.
Speaker 5: But it does bring up a reaction to me that
Speaker 5: probably has nothing to do with Jenny. She's right, you know,
Speaker 5: and vice versa. I'll bring something to the table that
Speaker 5: triggers Jenny. And it's not about my actions so much
Speaker 5: as it is about, Oh, it feels like it's sad.
Speaker 5: You know, it looks the same, and actually that's exactly.
Speaker 5: I mean, that's all couples. That's all couples, and that's
Speaker 5: the thing. It's like, I am not your dad. But
Speaker 5: like when you know, we got married, it felt in
Speaker 5: a lot of ways that dynamic of being in my shadow,
Speaker 5: if you will, Jason Biggs's wife, all of the things
Speaker 5: that you know, my plus one, all of that stuff,
Speaker 5: it it goes you can take that shit that she
Speaker 5: was dealing with in the early stages of our relationship
Speaker 5: and still deals with and just go and go back
Speaker 5: a couple of years and see that it's a similar
Speaker 5: thing to how she was dealing with her dad. When
Speaker 5: I'm triggered, It's like I'm reacting the same way for
Speaker 5: sure that I reacted when my mom said something when
Speaker 5: I was living at home, And I'm like, what the
Speaker 5: fuck is that? It's the same feeling for sure, And
Speaker 5: we're having a hard time, Like we've been with the
Speaker 5: same therapists for seventeen years, since before.
Speaker 2: We got married.
Speaker 5: And we were married nine months, so to tell you,
Speaker 5: you know what I mean, Like she has been with
Speaker 5: us before we even knew each other. And now it
Speaker 5: goes like this in terms of our abilities to recognize
Speaker 5: these triggers and take a step back before we get
Speaker 5: into a fight, like seeing that we're being triggered and
Speaker 5: go oh, okay.
Speaker 2: And we're like in a place.
Speaker 5: Right now where we need where it just happened to
Speaker 5: Like we're getting caught up in our triggers more than usual.
Speaker 2: We're both very busy.
Speaker 5: I think we're parenting is fucking hard, the hardest thing
Speaker 5: we've ever done. And all of these sort of external
Speaker 5: factors have now made it harder for us to all
Speaker 5: the work that we've done and all the tools that
Speaker 5: we've paid for quite a lot of money.
Speaker 1: For yes, seventeen years worth of therapy.
Speaker 2: Is like we're forgetting them.
Speaker 5: We're forgetting them, or we're just not accessing them, or
Speaker 5: we don't want to access them because we're back to
Speaker 5: wanting to be right again for some reason.
Speaker 4: Right now, it's not even that we want to be right.
Speaker 3: We want to be considered because I think that there's
Speaker 3: a a thing with Jason and I were we were
Speaker 3: both like codependence to like a narcissistic parent, right, And
Speaker 3: so we want to be heard and we want like
Speaker 3: to be prioritizing, and so it's hard for us to
Speaker 3: like it's like you can go first. It's your dime,
Speaker 3: you go first, right, And it's so hard to like
Speaker 3: allow that other person to go first.
Speaker 2: I think a lot of giving this problem to our
Speaker 2: narcissistic parent.
Speaker 3: Where you go, I'm going to let you go first,
Speaker 3: and I'm not going to bring up my shit right now,
Speaker 3: I'm going a whole day and I don't need to say,
Speaker 3: but what about me? And that's a discipline that you
Speaker 3: like have to learn in a relationship to not say,
Speaker 3: but what about me right now? It's like save it
Speaker 3: for later, let them have it, be generous enough to
Speaker 3: like let them make it, make it about them, to
Speaker 3: sort of like help them heal that shit and then
Speaker 3: get your own needs met later. When you both want
Speaker 3: to go at the same time, it never works.
Speaker 5: But even when we're able to do that, we're not
Speaker 5: always able to do it with empathy. Like we're like, okay, fine,
Speaker 5: you know what you go, you go, you go, well,
Speaker 5: but when you're ready, I'll go myself. It's like that's
Speaker 5: also not how to do it. It's like, but like
Speaker 5: props to me, I stopped. Okay, you go your dime.
Speaker 5: But it's all in tone, it's all in how you
Speaker 5: do it. We're not doing it with empathy. Then it's
Speaker 5: like fuck you, I don't want.
Speaker 2: To right exactly.
Speaker 1: That can become competitive too exactly. Okay, Well, on that note,
Speaker 1: that's the We're gonna wrap up this episode of Jenny
Speaker 1: and Jason and then we'll be back for episode four. Okay,
Speaker 1: so you can check out Jenny mull and substack the
Speaker 1: Best Friend Experience and her new side hustle, The Shirts
Speaker 1: off my Back where you can buy fabulous vintage clothes,
Speaker 1: and you can also check out Jenny and Jason co
Speaker 1: hosting Dinner in a Movie on TBS