Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news.
Speaker 2: Russia wants to show there is an alternative to a
Speaker 2: world run on the West's terms.
Speaker 3: The Bricks State stands united in their support for intensifying
Speaker 3: cooperation in the global arena based on the key principles
Speaker 3: of the UN Charter, and jointly strive to contribute in
Speaker 3: every possible way to the formation of a fair, multipolar
Speaker 3: world order with the decisive participation of the countries of
Speaker 3: the Global South and East in the systems of international governance.
Speaker 2: The Brick Summit in Kazan is Putin's attempt to show
Speaker 2: that Russia is not alone. The Kremlin build it as
Speaker 2: one of the largest scale foreign policy events ever, and
Speaker 2: African countries are playing a key role.
Speaker 4: Bricks is an inclusive formation, but has the ability to
Speaker 4: change the trajectory of the Global South. To do this,
Speaker 4: we must realize the food potential of our economic partnership
Speaker 4: to ensure sustainable development for all and not just for some.
Speaker 2: On this week's Next Africa Podcast, we'll ask what Russia
Speaker 2: needs from Africa and what the region wants in return.
Speaker 2: Is Russia an important ally or simply a way to
Speaker 2: show the rest of the world at the West isn't
Speaker 2: the only game in town. I'm Jennifer's Abasaja and this
Speaker 2: is the Next Africa Podcast, bringing you one story each
Speaker 2: week from the continent driving the future of global growth
Speaker 2: with the context only Bloomberg can provide. Joining me to
Speaker 2: discuss Russia's relationship with Africa this week our Bloomberg Senior
Speaker 2: reporter Henry Meyer and stembile Sele, Bloomberg's Government and eco
Speaker 2: reporter based here in Johannesburg. Hello to both of you.
Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us on the podcast. Henry, let's just
Speaker 2: start with you, Baby goes a background on BRICKS and
Speaker 2: what exactly was on the agenda for the summit this week.
Speaker 5: So, this is an organization which was founded about fifteen
Speaker 5: years ago by Russia, China, India and Brazil, and then
Speaker 5: it took in South Africa in twenty and ten and
Speaker 5: became BRICKS. It's essentially an organization which includes developing countries
Speaker 5: and seen by some of its members, particularly Russia and China,
Speaker 5: as an alternative to the US led world order. This
Speaker 5: is not a view which is widely shared by the
Speaker 5: other members. And this meeting that took place in Russia
Speaker 5: is the first time that the organization has met since
Speaker 5: it expanded to take in four new members. Those members
Speaker 5: are Ethiopia and Egypt, two new African countries, and Iran
Speaker 5: and the United Arab Emirates. In terms of what was
Speaker 5: on the agenda, obviously a part of their agenda is
Speaker 5: trying to increase the role of developing countries, particularly in
Speaker 5: the world's international financial architecture, develop economic ties between themselves
Speaker 5: and reduce the use of the US dollar. And also
Speaker 5: they are looking at the issue of whether they are
Speaker 5: ready to expand further.
Speaker 2: It's telling too, Henry, I mean the location of this
Speaker 2: the backdrop of what's happening geopolitically. When you think about
Speaker 2: a lot of those agenda items, What if anything do
Speaker 2: we know did they achieve at the summit.
Speaker 5: Well, the mere fact of the summit taking place at
Speaker 5: all is certainly by Russia seen as a major achievement.
Speaker 5: As you mentioned the geopolitical scenario, Russia is obviously under
Speaker 5: unprecedented sanctions and the West is trying to isolate it
Speaker 5: over its invasion of Ukraine. In total, more than thirty
Speaker 5: leaders attended this meeting. This includes countries which want to join,
Speaker 5: as well as the nine members. We don't have so
Speaker 5: far any tangible results from the summit. We do believe, however,
Speaker 5: that approximately a dozen countries will be invited to become
Speaker 5: observer members so not full membership, but maybe it's a
Speaker 5: halfway house.
Speaker 2: And what's interesting to Henry about this, we have a
Speaker 2: few Bloomberg Economics intelligence reports about how the expanding block
Speaker 2: doesn't necessarily mean that all of these different countries are
Speaker 2: going to be having the same relationship, right, the same
Speaker 2: bilateral relationship. But if we just take one of those
Speaker 2: China's relationship with South Africa. With Africa, we know a
Speaker 2: lot of that has come with checkbooks, has been about infrastructure.
Speaker 2: But when we think about Russia as the host of
Speaker 2: this year's summit, what do we know about Russia's relations
Speaker 2: with some of the other countries that are in the
Speaker 2: BRUX membership.
Speaker 5: If we so specifically about Africa, then obviously China's approaches,
Speaker 5: as you mentioned, is quite different. It's much more based
Speaker 5: on financial and economic ties. Obviously the level of trade,
Speaker 5: it's very interesting the Russian trade with Africa is very small.
Speaker 5: It's only twenty five billion dollars a year versus more
Speaker 5: than two hundred and eighty billion for China and the
Speaker 5: Russian approach, I would characterize it as developing ties with
Speaker 5: Africa on the cheap, if you're like A lot of
Speaker 5: it is to do with diplomatic benefits for African countries
Speaker 5: and also security ties, and particularly with countries where military
Speaker 5: rulers have taken over. This is the case in the
Speaker 5: Sahel in Western Africa, and this is I think the
Speaker 5: approach that Russia has yielded real benefits for them.
Speaker 1: At the UN.
Speaker 5: There have been African countries which have not backed votes
Speaker 5: condemning Russia for its invasion of Ukraine, and it allowed
Speaker 5: Russia also to counter the isolation that the West has
Speaker 5: been trying to impose on it.
Speaker 2: And one of those countries that have taken a bit
Speaker 2: of a neutral stance is South Africa's Tambile, if you
Speaker 2: can join in on this. Obviously, a key part of
Speaker 2: the Bricks was the host last year for the summit.
Speaker 2: How would you characterize South Africa's relationship with Russia right now?
Speaker 6: I think it is from a foreign policy perspective, one
Speaker 6: which in the first instance is historical, and that certainly
Speaker 6: came into play what last year's Brick summits and the
Speaker 6: negotiations around having the President of Russia Nott come unless
Speaker 6: t be arrested on that warrant of arrest from international
Speaker 6: criminal courts. But in terms of trade it is actually
Speaker 6: very limited. A trade that happens between the two countries
Speaker 6: are not significant in that sense. I think the approach
Speaker 6: to Russia is similar to the approach of countries in
Speaker 6: general for South Africa, which is, we are dealing from
Speaker 6: an aspect of national interest, what can we get out
Speaker 6: of this now? And South Africa has pushed really hard
Speaker 6: to be seen as being part of the revival of
Speaker 6: the so called non allied movement, where there is not
Speaker 6: neutrality but a position which says we're not going to
Speaker 6: get involved in every fact that you're involved with. Our
Speaker 6: allegiance and should be tested in that way and we
Speaker 6: should not be seen as taking.
Speaker 1: The side or that sign.
Speaker 6: We should be doing what we believe to be right,
Speaker 6: what is compliant with the international rule of law, and
Speaker 6: what is in our national interest economically and otherwise. And
Speaker 6: so I think that's position. Even if you look at
Speaker 6: the inputs that President rama Porta has been making.
Speaker 1: He's been pushing that idea of this is where we're
Speaker 1: at now.
Speaker 6: In terms of this coalition government that we've got going,
Speaker 6: and this is what we want to see in terms
Speaker 6: of the international order, and that is very much a
Speaker 6: form of multilateral institutions.
Speaker 1: They need to be fair.
Speaker 6: There needs to be a representation of the globe of
Speaker 6: South at these forums and they need to be heard
Speaker 6: in terms of what the interests saw and what the
Speaker 6: priorities are of countries in that region. I think that's
Speaker 6: the main push. We need to say, that's how we
Speaker 6: are engaging, That's not Africa, what is in this for us?
Speaker 1: And what is the structure of the international order?
Speaker 2: In the stare and non aligned was the right word.
Speaker 2: Thank you for using that stambula on the agenda this week.
Speaker 2: There were plans to try to expand the Bricks Group.
Speaker 2: We mentioned how last year that was part of the summit,
Speaker 2: but South Africa has been pretty vocal in their own
Speaker 2: stance in terms of expanding it out. Well, all the
Speaker 2: Bricks countries really have been stimuli What is the resistance
Speaker 2: to adding some of the countries that have been floated
Speaker 2: into the Bricks block from South Africa?
Speaker 6: So I think there's definitely a division work in Bricks
Speaker 6: on a number of levels. It's not as clear cutter
Speaker 6: as what the president of Russia, what have you believed?
Speaker 6: This is not a huge moment where everyone is at
Speaker 6: the table and they're all, you know, saying kumbaya, I'm
Speaker 6: agreeing with each other.
Speaker 1: There are some very real differences.
Speaker 6: I mean, if you're looking at some of the divisions,
Speaker 6: it might be along If you look at the founding
Speaker 6: members Brazil, India and South Africa, they have a very
Speaker 6: different worldview in general to Russia and China in terms
Speaker 6: of some of the purchase that they have to masters.
Speaker 6: And so they, for instance, are democratic countries. They are
Speaker 6: not interested in bricks being a counter to the West.
Speaker 6: They are interested simply an increasing representation in international order.
Speaker 1: And so I think that's where there is a difference.
Speaker 6: Russia at chime I might want to be using the
Speaker 6: bricks flock to further their own interests, to further their
Speaker 6: own placement in the world, to say, you know what,
Speaker 6: we have brains that we have allies, and these three
Speaker 6: countries in particular are saying, you know, this is more
Speaker 6: complicated than that, and we can take a step back
Speaker 6: and see what is it that you are actually wanting
Speaker 6: to achieve.
Speaker 2: Stick with us Henry and Stambilay when we come back,
Speaker 2: we'll look at what impact Russia has already had on
Speaker 2: the continent and what African leaders potentially want to get
Speaker 2: out of this relationship. Welcome back today on the podcast,
Speaker 2: we're discussing Russia's relationship with Africa that as the Bricks
Speaker 2: Summit ends in Kazan, Henry talk to us maybe about
Speaker 2: where Russia has had the most influence in Africa. Stambila
Speaker 2: really laid out there a lot of the differing relationships
Speaker 2: that members of the Block have had, but maybe talk
Speaker 2: to us from the perspective of the Russian state.
Speaker 5: Yes, the major Russian influence is in West Africa, in
Speaker 5: Sahel region, where you have a big problem with Jahadda's violence,
Speaker 5: and this has given Russia an opening to start providing
Speaker 5: security services. This began in twenty eighteen in the Central
Speaker 5: African Republic when Russian mercenaries arrived at the invitation of
Speaker 5: the president. Three years later they started to work in
Speaker 5: Mali and this now has now accelerated this year. In
Speaker 5: both Burkina Fassa and Niger. You have a Russian military presence.
Speaker 5: In addition to those countries, I would also mention a
Speaker 5: couple of other countries where Russia does have.
Speaker 1: A strong presence.
Speaker 5: Libya also a military presence in the east of the
Speaker 5: country where Russia is allied to the Eastern Bay strongman
Speaker 5: Halifa Haftar. Sudan, Russia is supporting power military forces which
Speaker 5: are fighting the military rulers in Hartu. And then you
Speaker 5: have other countries like Zimbabwe and of course South Africa
Speaker 5: where you have these historic links because of Soviet support
Speaker 5: for liberation movements.
Speaker 2: We're clearly seeing this sort of tug of war for
Speaker 2: influence and for partnership to a certain extent on the continent.
Speaker 1: I mean, Stembile, can you talk.
Speaker 2: To us about maybe the perspective of African leaders And
Speaker 2: I know you can't speak for all of them, but
Speaker 2: what is the benefit for them to be mentioned non
Speaker 2: alignment to look to countries like Russia, like China. Is
Speaker 2: it just wanting to send that message that they are
Speaker 2: open to any and all partners or have we heard
Speaker 2: from them that there's something else at play here?
Speaker 1: Yeah, so definitely don't speak for all of them, Thank
Speaker 1: you for that.
Speaker 6: But so Bloomberg Economy News had a really interesting piece
Speaker 6: about this concept of geopolitical neutrality, how not picking side
Speaker 6: is paying off for certain countries, and so previously it
Speaker 6: would be so easy to say this country is allowed
Speaker 6: at the side of the world, and so this is
Speaker 6: how they'revoked certain things going forward. I think with the
Speaker 6: Russian's invasion of Ukraine, that was a significant shift, even
Speaker 6: if you look at the u END votes and how
Speaker 6: African countries voted in or even unexpected against it, or
Speaker 6: a large number of them choosing to abstain altogether. And
Speaker 6: I think that was the first significant shift to say,
Speaker 6: there is a different occurrence that's happening, and we can't
Speaker 6: really interpret or read things through the same lens that
Speaker 6: we had historically. Countries are asserting themselves. They have a
Speaker 6: level of agency that they are trying to put out
Speaker 6: there into the world, and so that happens in different
Speaker 6: ways coming on board or allowing the lights of China
Speaker 6: and Russia to come on board. There's the security issues
Speaker 6: that Heny has spoken through, but there's also economic issues
Speaker 6: to US and to South Africa and those that are
Speaker 6: supporting it in their very form reform of international institutions.
Speaker 6: One of the issue rights is access to funding and
Speaker 6: how the developing countries are being left out for the
Speaker 6: bar is so high for them to get access to
Speaker 6: the funding that they need to develop.
Speaker 1: And so when.
Speaker 6: Someone like a Russia or a China comes in, of
Speaker 6: course you can this pass the merits of the conditions
Speaker 6: of their funding. If I need to grow my economy
Speaker 6: today and someone is offering something, I'm.
Speaker 1: Going to go for it. I'm going to do what
Speaker 1: in my national interests at this particular point. And so
Speaker 1: I think there's a.
Speaker 6: Lot of banamafit playing growing autonomy in the region to
Speaker 6: say how can we do things differently, how can we
Speaker 6: do things on our term? And obviously there's a whole
Speaker 6: lot of other stuff at play in the background. These
Speaker 6: countries are not benevolent factors that aren't doing with out
Speaker 6: of the goodness of their hearts. They have their own
Speaker 6: interests at play as well. But what Russia and China
Speaker 6: would like to do with the bricks club, that is
Speaker 6: an zogle of that right. So they come to Africa
Speaker 6: and it's not just them, there's bull countries as well.
Speaker 6: They have ulterior momm and I think African countries the
Speaker 6: leaders are time to figure out, well, what can we
Speaker 6: get out of it? You want this only? This is
Speaker 6: what I want to achieve what is the middle ground,
Speaker 6: and hardly we go about doing that. So I think
Speaker 6: things are becoming more complicated. The proxy or that we've
Speaker 6: seen shifted, power has shifted in terms of the global order,
Speaker 6: and everyone is just facally time to establish their place
Speaker 6: in this and how to get the most outlaw themselves going.
Speaker 2: Forward, absolutely a new multipole world and I wonder, Henry,
Speaker 2: what is next to pay attention to with this block
Speaker 2: and with these multiple forces in this new world order?
Speaker 1: What would you say is sort of key to watch well?
Speaker 5: I think as far as bricks is concerned, it's the
Speaker 5: degree to which they're going to manage to cooperate economically
Speaker 5: and increase trade. A lot of the trade within bricks
Speaker 5: is between China and the other countries. The other intra
Speaker 5: bricks trade isn't that significant. The other issue is, of
Speaker 5: course the use of the US dollar, and this is
Speaker 5: something that Russia, because of the sanctions that have been
Speaker 5: imposed on it over its invasion of Ukraine, is especially
Speaker 5: keen to promote. There is obviously interest in that among
Speaker 5: bricks countries, but they have a different perspective. I think
Speaker 5: they're looking for an alternative to their ties with the West,
Speaker 5: but they're not looking to replace them fully, whereas Russia
Speaker 5: is completely frozen.
Speaker 1: Out of ties with the West.
Speaker 5: So I think we will see that trend develop, but
Speaker 5: certainly not as fast or as deeply as Russia would
Speaker 5: like to see.
Speaker 2: And you can read more on our coverage of the
Speaker 2: Brick Summit across Bloomberg News platforms. Here's a few other
Speaker 2: stories we're watching in the region. This week, Nigerian President
Speaker 2: Bola Tinubu announced an overhaul of his cabinet, firing five
Speaker 2: ministers in the first such shakeup since he took office
Speaker 2: in May of twenty twenty three. Tinubu dropped the Minister
Speaker 2: of Women Affairs, Tourism, Education, Housing and Urban Development, as
Speaker 2: well as the Minister of Youth Development and South Africa
Speaker 2: plans to ease visa rules for visitors from India and
Speaker 2: China within days to lure tourists from the world's two
Speaker 2: most populated nations who have been deterred by red tape.
Speaker 2: Unlike travelers from many Western nations, Indian and Chinese tourists
Speaker 2: need pre authorization, which could put off visitors. And you
Speaker 2: can follow these stories across Bloomberg platforms, including the next
Speaker 2: African newsletter. We'll put a link to that in the
Speaker 2: show notes. This program was produced by Adrian Bradley. Don't
Speaker 2: forget to follow and review the show wherever you usually
Speaker 2: get your podcasts. I'm Jennifer's Abasaga. Thanks as always for listening.