1
00:00:02,440 --> 00:00:06,800
Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news.

2
00:00:08,400 --> 00:00:11,320
Speaker 2: Russia wants to show there is an alternative to a

3
00:00:11,400 --> 00:00:13,680
Speaker 2: world run on the West's terms.

4
00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:18,760
Speaker 3: The Bricks State stands united in their support for intensifying

5
00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:22,400
Speaker 3: cooperation in the global arena based on the key principles

6
00:00:22,400 --> 00:00:25,880
Speaker 3: of the UN Charter, and jointly strive to contribute in

7
00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:29,480
Speaker 3: every possible way to the formation of a fair, multipolar

8
00:00:29,560 --> 00:00:33,839
Speaker 3: world order with the decisive participation of the countries of

9
00:00:33,880 --> 00:00:37,839
Speaker 3: the Global South and East in the systems of international governance.

10
00:00:38,479 --> 00:00:41,360
Speaker 2: The Brick Summit in Kazan is Putin's attempt to show

11
00:00:41,360 --> 00:00:44,720
Speaker 2: that Russia is not alone. The Kremlin build it as

12
00:00:44,760 --> 00:00:48,199
Speaker 2: one of the largest scale foreign policy events ever, and

13
00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:50,680
Speaker 2: African countries are playing a key role.

14
00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:56,280
Speaker 4: Bricks is an inclusive formation, but has the ability to

15
00:00:56,480 --> 00:01:00,360
Speaker 4: change the trajectory of the Global South. To do this,

16
00:01:00,640 --> 00:01:05,840
Speaker 4: we must realize the food potential of our economic partnership

17
00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:12,440
Speaker 4: to ensure sustainable development for all and not just for some.

18
00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:16,400
Speaker 2: On this week's Next Africa Podcast, we'll ask what Russia

19
00:01:16,480 --> 00:01:19,600
Speaker 2: needs from Africa and what the region wants in return.

20
00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:23,240
Speaker 2: Is Russia an important ally or simply a way to

21
00:01:23,319 --> 00:01:26,120
Speaker 2: show the rest of the world at the West isn't

22
00:01:26,120 --> 00:01:30,720
Speaker 2: the only game in town. I'm Jennifer's Abasaja and this

23
00:01:30,800 --> 00:01:34,040
Speaker 2: is the Next Africa Podcast, bringing you one story each

24
00:01:34,080 --> 00:01:36,880
Speaker 2: week from the continent driving the future of global growth

25
00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:43,520
Speaker 2: with the context only Bloomberg can provide. Joining me to

26
00:01:43,640 --> 00:01:47,720
Speaker 2: discuss Russia's relationship with Africa this week our Bloomberg Senior

27
00:01:47,720 --> 00:01:52,080
Speaker 2: reporter Henry Meyer and stembile Sele, Bloomberg's Government and eco

28
00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:55,680
Speaker 2: reporter based here in Johannesburg. Hello to both of you.

29
00:01:55,720 --> 00:01:58,520
Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us on the podcast. Henry, let's just

30
00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:02,000
Speaker 2: start with you, Baby goes a background on BRICKS and

31
00:02:02,040 --> 00:02:05,040
Speaker 2: what exactly was on the agenda for the summit this week.

32
00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:09,240
Speaker 5: So, this is an organization which was founded about fifteen

33
00:02:09,320 --> 00:02:15,440
Speaker 5: years ago by Russia, China, India and Brazil, and then

34
00:02:15,639 --> 00:02:18,919
Speaker 5: it took in South Africa in twenty and ten and

35
00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:25,040
Speaker 5: became BRICKS. It's essentially an organization which includes developing countries

36
00:02:25,639 --> 00:02:29,280
Speaker 5: and seen by some of its members, particularly Russia and China,

37
00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:33,440
Speaker 5: as an alternative to the US led world order. This

38
00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:36,080
Speaker 5: is not a view which is widely shared by the

39
00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:40,200
Speaker 5: other members. And this meeting that took place in Russia

40
00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:43,240
Speaker 5: is the first time that the organization has met since

41
00:02:43,240 --> 00:02:47,080
Speaker 5: it expanded to take in four new members. Those members

42
00:02:47,160 --> 00:02:51,840
Speaker 5: are Ethiopia and Egypt, two new African countries, and Iran

43
00:02:52,120 --> 00:02:55,800
Speaker 5: and the United Arab Emirates. In terms of what was

44
00:02:55,800 --> 00:02:58,720
Speaker 5: on the agenda, obviously a part of their agenda is

45
00:02:58,760 --> 00:03:02,360
Speaker 5: trying to increase the role of developing countries, particularly in

46
00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:08,040
Speaker 5: the world's international financial architecture, develop economic ties between themselves

47
00:03:08,040 --> 00:03:11,520
Speaker 5: and reduce the use of the US dollar. And also

48
00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:13,600
Speaker 5: they are looking at the issue of whether they are

49
00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:14,760
Speaker 5: ready to expand further.

50
00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:18,400
Speaker 2: It's telling too, Henry, I mean the location of this

51
00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:22,560
Speaker 2: the backdrop of what's happening geopolitically. When you think about

52
00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:25,800
Speaker 2: a lot of those agenda items, What if anything do

53
00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:29,160
Speaker 2: we know did they achieve at the summit.

54
00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:32,160
Speaker 5: Well, the mere fact of the summit taking place at

55
00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:35,920
Speaker 5: all is certainly by Russia seen as a major achievement.

56
00:03:36,200 --> 00:03:40,160
Speaker 5: As you mentioned the geopolitical scenario, Russia is obviously under

57
00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:43,600
Speaker 5: unprecedented sanctions and the West is trying to isolate it

58
00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:47,280
Speaker 5: over its invasion of Ukraine. In total, more than thirty

59
00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:51,840
Speaker 5: leaders attended this meeting. This includes countries which want to join,

60
00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:55,960
Speaker 5: as well as the nine members. We don't have so

61
00:03:56,080 --> 00:04:00,440
Speaker 5: far any tangible results from the summit. We do believe, however,

62
00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:04,440
Speaker 5: that approximately a dozen countries will be invited to become

63
00:04:04,840 --> 00:04:08,680
Speaker 5: observer members so not full membership, but maybe it's a

64
00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:09,520
Speaker 5: halfway house.

65
00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:13,320
Speaker 2: And what's interesting to Henry about this, we have a

66
00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:18,479
Speaker 2: few Bloomberg Economics intelligence reports about how the expanding block

67
00:04:18,600 --> 00:04:22,320
Speaker 2: doesn't necessarily mean that all of these different countries are

68
00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:25,720
Speaker 2: going to be having the same relationship, right, the same

69
00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:28,520
Speaker 2: bilateral relationship. But if we just take one of those

70
00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:33,440
Speaker 2: China's relationship with South Africa. With Africa, we know a

71
00:04:33,440 --> 00:04:37,680
Speaker 2: lot of that has come with checkbooks, has been about infrastructure.

72
00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:40,479
Speaker 2: But when we think about Russia as the host of

73
00:04:40,520 --> 00:04:44,520
Speaker 2: this year's summit, what do we know about Russia's relations

74
00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:46,680
Speaker 2: with some of the other countries that are in the

75
00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:47,520
Speaker 2: BRUX membership.

76
00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:53,440
Speaker 5: If we so specifically about Africa, then obviously China's approaches,

77
00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:56,679
Speaker 5: as you mentioned, is quite different. It's much more based

78
00:04:56,800 --> 00:05:01,080
Speaker 5: on financial and economic ties. Obviously the level of trade,

79
00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:04,920
Speaker 5: it's very interesting the Russian trade with Africa is very small.

80
00:05:04,960 --> 00:05:08,760
Speaker 5: It's only twenty five billion dollars a year versus more

81
00:05:08,760 --> 00:05:13,520
Speaker 5: than two hundred and eighty billion for China and the

82
00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:18,080
Speaker 5: Russian approach, I would characterize it as developing ties with

83
00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:20,359
Speaker 5: Africa on the cheap, if you're like A lot of

84
00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:23,679
Speaker 5: it is to do with diplomatic benefits for African countries

85
00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:29,679
Speaker 5: and also security ties, and particularly with countries where military

86
00:05:29,760 --> 00:05:31,800
Speaker 5: rulers have taken over. This is the case in the

87
00:05:31,839 --> 00:05:36,159
Speaker 5: Sahel in Western Africa, and this is I think the

88
00:05:36,200 --> 00:05:38,880
Speaker 5: approach that Russia has yielded real benefits for them.

89
00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:39,880
Speaker 1: At the UN.

90
00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:43,560
Speaker 5: There have been African countries which have not backed votes

91
00:05:43,839 --> 00:05:47,760
Speaker 5: condemning Russia for its invasion of Ukraine, and it allowed

92
00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:51,600
Speaker 5: Russia also to counter the isolation that the West has

93
00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:52,680
Speaker 5: been trying to impose on it.

94
00:05:53,160 --> 00:05:55,520
Speaker 2: And one of those countries that have taken a bit

95
00:05:55,520 --> 00:05:58,440
Speaker 2: of a neutral stance is South Africa's Tambile, if you

96
00:05:58,480 --> 00:06:01,039
Speaker 2: can join in on this. Obviously, a key part of

97
00:06:01,040 --> 00:06:03,560
Speaker 2: the Bricks was the host last year for the summit.

98
00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:08,200
Speaker 2: How would you characterize South Africa's relationship with Russia right now?

99
00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:13,200
Speaker 6: I think it is from a foreign policy perspective, one

100
00:06:13,279 --> 00:06:16,440
Speaker 6: which in the first instance is historical, and that certainly

101
00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:18,840
Speaker 6: came into play what last year's Brick summits and the

102
00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:22,400
Speaker 6: negotiations around having the President of Russia Nott come unless

103
00:06:22,440 --> 00:06:25,200
Speaker 6: t be arrested on that warrant of arrest from international

104
00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:28,160
Speaker 6: criminal courts. But in terms of trade it is actually

105
00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:31,320
Speaker 6: very limited. A trade that happens between the two countries

106
00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:34,880
Speaker 6: are not significant in that sense. I think the approach

107
00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:37,359
Speaker 6: to Russia is similar to the approach of countries in

108
00:06:37,400 --> 00:06:40,360
Speaker 6: general for South Africa, which is, we are dealing from

109
00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:42,920
Speaker 6: an aspect of national interest, what can we get out

110
00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:45,640
Speaker 6: of this now? And South Africa has pushed really hard

111
00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:48,240
Speaker 6: to be seen as being part of the revival of

112
00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:51,359
Speaker 6: the so called non allied movement, where there is not

113
00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:54,760
Speaker 6: neutrality but a position which says we're not going to

114
00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:58,320
Speaker 6: get involved in every fact that you're involved with. Our

115
00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:01,280
Speaker 6: allegiance and should be tested in that way and we

116
00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:02,919
Speaker 6: should not be seen as taking.

117
00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:03,680
Speaker 1: The side or that sign.

118
00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:05,920
Speaker 6: We should be doing what we believe to be right,

119
00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:09,320
Speaker 6: what is compliant with the international rule of law, and

120
00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:12,680
Speaker 6: what is in our national interest economically and otherwise. And

121
00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:15,120
Speaker 6: so I think that's position. Even if you look at

122
00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:17,960
Speaker 6: the inputs that President rama Porta has been making.

123
00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:20,040
Speaker 1: He's been pushing that idea of this is where we're

124
00:07:20,080 --> 00:07:20,480
Speaker 1: at now.

125
00:07:20,480 --> 00:07:22,800
Speaker 6: In terms of this coalition government that we've got going,

126
00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:25,000
Speaker 6: and this is what we want to see in terms

127
00:07:25,040 --> 00:07:27,600
Speaker 6: of the international order, and that is very much a

128
00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:29,560
Speaker 6: form of multilateral institutions.

129
00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:30,559
Speaker 1: They need to be fair.

130
00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:33,000
Speaker 6: There needs to be a representation of the globe of

131
00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:35,600
Speaker 6: South at these forums and they need to be heard

132
00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:37,760
Speaker 6: in terms of what the interests saw and what the

133
00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:41,080
Speaker 6: priorities are of countries in that region. I think that's

134
00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:43,320
Speaker 6: the main push. We need to say, that's how we

135
00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:46,880
Speaker 6: are engaging, That's not Africa, what is in this for us?

136
00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:49,400
Speaker 1: And what is the structure of the international order?

137
00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:52,480
Speaker 2: In the stare and non aligned was the right word.

138
00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:55,480
Speaker 2: Thank you for using that stambula on the agenda this week.

139
00:07:55,560 --> 00:07:58,040
Speaker 2: There were plans to try to expand the Bricks Group.

140
00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:00,920
Speaker 2: We mentioned how last year that was part of the summit,

141
00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:04,600
Speaker 2: but South Africa has been pretty vocal in their own

142
00:08:04,640 --> 00:08:07,960
Speaker 2: stance in terms of expanding it out. Well, all the

143
00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:10,920
Speaker 2: Bricks countries really have been stimuli What is the resistance

144
00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:14,240
Speaker 2: to adding some of the countries that have been floated

145
00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:16,880
Speaker 2: into the Bricks block from South Africa?

146
00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:21,120
Speaker 6: So I think there's definitely a division work in Bricks

147
00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:23,800
Speaker 6: on a number of levels. It's not as clear cutter

148
00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:25,880
Speaker 6: as what the president of Russia, what have you believed?

149
00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:28,720
Speaker 6: This is not a huge moment where everyone is at

150
00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:31,000
Speaker 6: the table and they're all, you know, saying kumbaya, I'm

151
00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:31,800
Speaker 6: agreeing with each other.

152
00:08:31,880 --> 00:08:34,040
Speaker 1: There are some very real differences.

153
00:08:34,160 --> 00:08:35,720
Speaker 6: I mean, if you're looking at some of the divisions,

154
00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:38,040
Speaker 6: it might be along If you look at the founding

155
00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:41,080
Speaker 6: members Brazil, India and South Africa, they have a very

156
00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:44,760
Speaker 6: different worldview in general to Russia and China in terms

157
00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:46,960
Speaker 6: of some of the purchase that they have to masters.

158
00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:52,280
Speaker 6: And so they, for instance, are democratic countries. They are

159
00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:55,480
Speaker 6: not interested in bricks being a counter to the West.

160
00:08:56,080 --> 00:09:01,040
Speaker 6: They are interested simply an increasing representation in international order.

161
00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:03,400
Speaker 1: And so I think that's where there is a difference.

162
00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:05,360
Speaker 6: Russia at chime I might want to be using the

163
00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:09,160
Speaker 6: bricks flock to further their own interests, to further their

164
00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:11,080
Speaker 6: own placement in the world, to say, you know what,

165
00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:13,959
Speaker 6: we have brains that we have allies, and these three

166
00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:16,120
Speaker 6: countries in particular are saying, you know, this is more

167
00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:18,120
Speaker 6: complicated than that, and we can take a step back

168
00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:20,680
Speaker 6: and see what is it that you are actually wanting

169
00:09:20,800 --> 00:09:21,280
Speaker 6: to achieve.

170
00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:24,079
Speaker 2: Stick with us Henry and Stambilay when we come back,

171
00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:26,600
Speaker 2: we'll look at what impact Russia has already had on

172
00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:30,080
Speaker 2: the continent and what African leaders potentially want to get

173
00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:37,640
Speaker 2: out of this relationship. Welcome back today on the podcast,

174
00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:42,439
Speaker 2: we're discussing Russia's relationship with Africa that as the Bricks

175
00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:46,959
Speaker 2: Summit ends in Kazan, Henry talk to us maybe about

176
00:09:47,080 --> 00:09:51,280
Speaker 2: where Russia has had the most influence in Africa. Stambila

177
00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:54,280
Speaker 2: really laid out there a lot of the differing relationships

178
00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:57,000
Speaker 2: that members of the Block have had, but maybe talk

179
00:09:57,040 --> 00:09:59,800
Speaker 2: to us from the perspective of the Russian state.

180
00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:03,480
Speaker 5: Yes, the major Russian influence is in West Africa, in

181
00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:08,040
Speaker 5: Sahel region, where you have a big problem with Jahadda's violence,

182
00:10:08,040 --> 00:10:11,240
Speaker 5: and this has given Russia an opening to start providing

183
00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:16,320
Speaker 5: security services. This began in twenty eighteen in the Central

184
00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:19,600
Speaker 5: African Republic when Russian mercenaries arrived at the invitation of

185
00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:24,319
Speaker 5: the president. Three years later they started to work in

186
00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:28,880
Speaker 5: Mali and this now has now accelerated this year. In

187
00:10:28,920 --> 00:10:33,000
Speaker 5: both Burkina Fassa and Niger. You have a Russian military presence.

188
00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:35,880
Speaker 5: In addition to those countries, I would also mention a

189
00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:38,720
Speaker 5: couple of other countries where Russia does have.

190
00:10:38,840 --> 00:10:39,760
Speaker 1: A strong presence.

191
00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:43,520
Speaker 5: Libya also a military presence in the east of the

192
00:10:43,520 --> 00:10:47,600
Speaker 5: country where Russia is allied to the Eastern Bay strongman

193
00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:52,440
Speaker 5: Halifa Haftar. Sudan, Russia is supporting power military forces which

194
00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:56,000
Speaker 5: are fighting the military rulers in Hartu. And then you

195
00:10:56,080 --> 00:10:59,440
Speaker 5: have other countries like Zimbabwe and of course South Africa

196
00:10:59,720 --> 00:11:02,880
Speaker 5: where you have these historic links because of Soviet support

197
00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:04,480
Speaker 5: for liberation movements.

198
00:11:04,679 --> 00:11:07,160
Speaker 2: We're clearly seeing this sort of tug of war for

199
00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:10,679
Speaker 2: influence and for partnership to a certain extent on the continent.

200
00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:13,040
Speaker 1: I mean, Stembile, can you talk.

201
00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:16,640
Speaker 2: To us about maybe the perspective of African leaders And

202
00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:18,320
Speaker 2: I know you can't speak for all of them, but

203
00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:21,480
Speaker 2: what is the benefit for them to be mentioned non

204
00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:25,480
Speaker 2: alignment to look to countries like Russia, like China. Is

205
00:11:25,520 --> 00:11:28,320
Speaker 2: it just wanting to send that message that they are

206
00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:30,720
Speaker 2: open to any and all partners or have we heard

207
00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:33,440
Speaker 2: from them that there's something else at play here?

208
00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:35,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, so definitely don't speak for all of them, Thank

209
00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:36,200
Speaker 1: you for that.

210
00:11:36,520 --> 00:11:40,200
Speaker 6: But so Bloomberg Economy News had a really interesting piece

211
00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:45,600
Speaker 6: about this concept of geopolitical neutrality, how not picking side

212
00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:48,880
Speaker 6: is paying off for certain countries, and so previously it

213
00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:51,000
Speaker 6: would be so easy to say this country is allowed

214
00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:52,800
Speaker 6: at the side of the world, and so this is

215
00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:55,520
Speaker 6: how they'revoked certain things going forward. I think with the

216
00:11:55,600 --> 00:11:59,040
Speaker 6: Russian's invasion of Ukraine, that was a significant shift, even

217
00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:01,560
Speaker 6: if you look at the u END votes and how

218
00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:05,760
Speaker 6: African countries voted in or even unexpected against it, or

219
00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:09,840
Speaker 6: a large number of them choosing to abstain altogether. And

220
00:12:09,880 --> 00:12:12,240
Speaker 6: I think that was the first significant shift to say,

221
00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:16,400
Speaker 6: there is a different occurrence that's happening, and we can't

222
00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:19,560
Speaker 6: really interpret or read things through the same lens that

223
00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:23,200
Speaker 6: we had historically. Countries are asserting themselves. They have a

224
00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:26,040
Speaker 6: level of agency that they are trying to put out

225
00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:28,840
Speaker 6: there into the world, and so that happens in different

226
00:12:28,880 --> 00:12:32,280
Speaker 6: ways coming on board or allowing the lights of China

227
00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:34,760
Speaker 6: and Russia to come on board. There's the security issues

228
00:12:34,920 --> 00:12:37,679
Speaker 6: that Heny has spoken through, but there's also economic issues

229
00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:40,280
Speaker 6: to US and to South Africa and those that are

230
00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:44,160
Speaker 6: supporting it in their very form reform of international institutions.

231
00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:47,199
Speaker 6: One of the issue rights is access to funding and

232
00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:49,800
Speaker 6: how the developing countries are being left out for the

233
00:12:49,840 --> 00:12:52,280
Speaker 6: bar is so high for them to get access to

234
00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:53,959
Speaker 6: the funding that they need to develop.

235
00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:55,239
Speaker 1: And so when.

236
00:12:54,960 --> 00:12:56,920
Speaker 6: Someone like a Russia or a China comes in, of

237
00:12:56,920 --> 00:12:58,880
Speaker 6: course you can this pass the merits of the conditions

238
00:12:58,880 --> 00:13:01,559
Speaker 6: of their funding. If I need to grow my economy

239
00:13:01,559 --> 00:13:04,040
Speaker 6: today and someone is offering something, I'm.

240
00:13:03,840 --> 00:13:05,400
Speaker 1: Going to go for it. I'm going to do what

241
00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:08,599
Speaker 1: in my national interests at this particular point. And so

242
00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:09,240
Speaker 1: I think there's a.

243
00:13:09,160 --> 00:13:12,320
Speaker 6: Lot of banamafit playing growing autonomy in the region to

244
00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:14,440
Speaker 6: say how can we do things differently, how can we

245
00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:17,520
Speaker 6: do things on our term? And obviously there's a whole

246
00:13:17,559 --> 00:13:19,319
Speaker 6: lot of other stuff at play in the background. These

247
00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:22,360
Speaker 6: countries are not benevolent factors that aren't doing with out

248
00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:24,120
Speaker 6: of the goodness of their hearts. They have their own

249
00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:26,959
Speaker 6: interests at play as well. But what Russia and China

250
00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:29,520
Speaker 6: would like to do with the bricks club, that is

251
00:13:29,559 --> 00:13:31,720
Speaker 6: an zogle of that right. So they come to Africa

252
00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:33,640
Speaker 6: and it's not just them, there's bull countries as well.

253
00:13:33,880 --> 00:13:37,000
Speaker 6: They have ulterior momm and I think African countries the

254
00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:39,280
Speaker 6: leaders are time to figure out, well, what can we

255
00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:41,760
Speaker 6: get out of it? You want this only? This is

256
00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:43,800
Speaker 6: what I want to achieve what is the middle ground,

257
00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:45,480
Speaker 6: and hardly we go about doing that. So I think

258
00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:49,040
Speaker 6: things are becoming more complicated. The proxy or that we've

259
00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:52,080
Speaker 6: seen shifted, power has shifted in terms of the global order,

260
00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:54,720
Speaker 6: and everyone is just facally time to establish their place

261
00:13:54,760 --> 00:13:58,040
Speaker 6: in this and how to get the most outlaw themselves going.

262
00:13:57,760 --> 00:14:02,200
Speaker 2: Forward, absolutely a new multipole world and I wonder, Henry,

263
00:14:02,240 --> 00:14:06,319
Speaker 2: what is next to pay attention to with this block

264
00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:09,840
Speaker 2: and with these multiple forces in this new world order?

265
00:14:09,920 --> 00:14:13,880
Speaker 1: What would you say is sort of key to watch well?

266
00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:16,400
Speaker 5: I think as far as bricks is concerned, it's the

267
00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:20,280
Speaker 5: degree to which they're going to manage to cooperate economically

268
00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:23,320
Speaker 5: and increase trade. A lot of the trade within bricks

269
00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:26,320
Speaker 5: is between China and the other countries. The other intra

270
00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:30,920
Speaker 5: bricks trade isn't that significant. The other issue is, of

271
00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:33,040
Speaker 5: course the use of the US dollar, and this is

272
00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:36,280
Speaker 5: something that Russia, because of the sanctions that have been

273
00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:39,960
Speaker 5: imposed on it over its invasion of Ukraine, is especially

274
00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:44,200
Speaker 5: keen to promote. There is obviously interest in that among

275
00:14:44,240 --> 00:14:47,600
Speaker 5: bricks countries, but they have a different perspective. I think

276
00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:50,880
Speaker 5: they're looking for an alternative to their ties with the West,

277
00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:53,880
Speaker 5: but they're not looking to replace them fully, whereas Russia

278
00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:55,880
Speaker 5: is completely frozen.

279
00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:57,600
Speaker 1: Out of ties with the West.

280
00:14:57,680 --> 00:15:01,680
Speaker 5: So I think we will see that trend develop, but

281
00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:06,400
Speaker 5: certainly not as fast or as deeply as Russia would

282
00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:07,640
Speaker 5: like to see.

283
00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:10,600
Speaker 2: And you can read more on our coverage of the

284
00:15:10,600 --> 00:15:15,200
Speaker 2: Brick Summit across Bloomberg News platforms. Here's a few other

285
00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:19,200
Speaker 2: stories we're watching in the region. This week, Nigerian President

286
00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:23,320
Speaker 2: Bola Tinubu announced an overhaul of his cabinet, firing five

287
00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:27,320
Speaker 2: ministers in the first such shakeup since he took office

288
00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:30,960
Speaker 2: in May of twenty twenty three. Tinubu dropped the Minister

289
00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:36,720
Speaker 2: of Women Affairs, Tourism, Education, Housing and Urban Development, as

290
00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:41,200
Speaker 2: well as the Minister of Youth Development and South Africa

291
00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:44,240
Speaker 2: plans to ease visa rules for visitors from India and

292
00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:47,720
Speaker 2: China within days to lure tourists from the world's two

293
00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:51,320
Speaker 2: most populated nations who have been deterred by red tape.

294
00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:55,880
Speaker 2: Unlike travelers from many Western nations, Indian and Chinese tourists

295
00:15:56,000 --> 00:16:00,280
Speaker 2: need pre authorization, which could put off visitors. And you

296
00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:03,920
Speaker 2: can follow these stories across Bloomberg platforms, including the next

297
00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:06,560
Speaker 2: African newsletter. We'll put a link to that in the

298
00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:14,240
Speaker 2: show notes. This program was produced by Adrian Bradley. Don't

299
00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:17,400
Speaker 2: forget to follow and review the show wherever you usually

300
00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:21,680
Speaker 2: get your podcasts. I'm Jennifer's Abasaga. Thanks as always for listening.