1 00:00:15,076 --> 00:00:21,756 Speaker 1: Pushkin. I'm Mave Higgins, and this is solvable Interviews with 2 00:00:21,836 --> 00:00:25,676 Speaker 1: the world's most innovative thinkers working to solve the world's 3 00:00:25,676 --> 00:00:30,116 Speaker 1: biggest problems. My solvable is that by twenty thirty we 4 00:00:30,196 --> 00:00:33,076 Speaker 1: can make sure every girl gets a great education and 5 00:00:33,156 --> 00:00:35,316 Speaker 1: she gets a chance to be a leader. What makes 6 00:00:35,356 --> 00:00:38,316 Speaker 1: me want to solve this problem is my life experience. 7 00:00:38,516 --> 00:00:41,956 Speaker 1: I know how transformative education is, and having had the 8 00:00:42,036 --> 00:00:44,956 Speaker 1: privilege of being a leader, I want to see more 9 00:00:45,076 --> 00:00:49,716 Speaker 1: women get access to leadership positions. That is Julia Gillard, 10 00:00:49,996 --> 00:00:52,676 Speaker 1: the first and so far the only woman to be 11 00:00:52,756 --> 00:00:56,716 Speaker 1: Prime Minister of Australia. She left Offers in two thirteen. 12 00:00:57,596 --> 00:01:01,036 Speaker 1: As you'll hear, leaving Offers was tough for her. Getting 13 00:01:01,036 --> 00:01:03,636 Speaker 1: there in the first place was even tougher, though, and 14 00:01:03,756 --> 00:01:07,916 Speaker 1: this isn't surprising. Around the world and throughout different industries 15 00:01:07,956 --> 00:01:12,836 Speaker 1: and rules, women leaders are actually on the decline. Forbes 16 00:01:12,956 --> 00:01:16,276 Speaker 1: reported that women held under a quarter of senior roles 17 00:01:16,276 --> 00:01:19,716 Speaker 1: across the world in twenty eighteen, and women represent just 18 00:01:19,916 --> 00:01:26,076 Speaker 1: five percent of Fourtune five hundred CEOs. But we're jumping ahead. Globally, 19 00:01:26,396 --> 00:01:29,236 Speaker 1: girls are more likely than boys to be excluded from 20 00:01:29,236 --> 00:01:32,836 Speaker 1: primary school and women make up more than two thirds 21 00:01:32,836 --> 00:01:36,916 Speaker 1: of the world's nearly eight hundred million illiterate people. But 22 00:01:37,196 --> 00:01:39,156 Speaker 1: say you're one of the lucky ones, you go to school, 23 00:01:39,196 --> 00:01:42,276 Speaker 1: you go to college, you excel in your field, it's 24 00:01:42,316 --> 00:01:46,316 Speaker 1: still unlikely that you'll actually become a leader. Just in 25 00:01:46,356 --> 00:01:50,076 Speaker 1: the United States alone, that figures are pretty bad. Take medicine, 26 00:01:50,076 --> 00:01:54,316 Speaker 1: where women represent forty percent of all physicians and surgeons, 27 00:01:54,316 --> 00:01:58,436 Speaker 1: but fewer than one in five are permanent medical school deans. 28 00:01:59,316 --> 00:02:02,836 Speaker 1: Or look at academia, women have actually earned the majority 29 00:02:02,876 --> 00:02:06,756 Speaker 1: of doctorates for eight consecutive years, but they are only 30 00:02:06,796 --> 00:02:10,476 Speaker 1: thirty two percent of full time professors. And looking again 31 00:02:10,676 --> 00:02:12,796 Speaker 1: at the world of business. Here in the US, the 32 00:02:12,876 --> 00:02:17,836 Speaker 1: Government Accountability Office recently published a report on improving gender 33 00:02:17,876 --> 00:02:21,836 Speaker 1: diversity on boards. It says the importance of diversity must 34 00:02:21,836 --> 00:02:26,516 Speaker 1: be emphasized and a diverse set of underrepresented candidates required. 35 00:02:27,156 --> 00:02:30,196 Speaker 1: It also says boards should have age or term limits, 36 00:02:30,196 --> 00:02:33,076 Speaker 1: and other countries have done that and more and they've 37 00:02:33,076 --> 00:02:37,196 Speaker 1: seen results, and that includes Australia. Today we have this 38 00:02:37,276 --> 00:02:41,516 Speaker 1: really great exchange between Malcolm Gladwell and Julia Gillard. Gillard 39 00:02:41,636 --> 00:02:44,796 Speaker 1: started her career as a lawyer in Melbourne coming to 40 00:02:45,196 --> 00:02:48,036 Speaker 1: politics in nineteen ninety eight when she was elected to 41 00:02:48,076 --> 00:02:52,716 Speaker 1: the Australian House of Representatives, before becoming their first woman 42 00:02:52,756 --> 00:02:55,636 Speaker 1: Prime minister in two and ten. She was the first 43 00:02:55,756 --> 00:02:58,836 Speaker 1: woman Deputy Prime Minister and the first woman leader of 44 00:02:58,876 --> 00:03:02,756 Speaker 1: a major party. Following her term as Prime Minister, she's 45 00:03:02,796 --> 00:03:07,556 Speaker 1: accepted fellowships and visiting professorships at universities around the world, 46 00:03:07,916 --> 00:03:11,596 Speaker 1: and she currently chairs the Global Institute for Women's Leadership 47 00:03:12,156 --> 00:03:15,716 Speaker 1: over at King's College in London. They have omitsion to 48 00:03:15,956 --> 00:03:20,796 Speaker 1: better understands why women continue to be underrepresented in positions 49 00:03:20,876 --> 00:03:24,316 Speaker 1: of leadership. So let's hear what you've got to say. 50 00:03:25,876 --> 00:03:29,356 Speaker 1: You served as Prime Minister of Australia and you had 51 00:03:29,396 --> 00:03:31,836 Speaker 1: the question that faces anyone coming out of high office, 52 00:03:31,876 --> 00:03:34,396 Speaker 1: which is what do I do next? And tell me 53 00:03:34,436 --> 00:03:36,476 Speaker 1: how you came to decide what you wanted to do 54 00:03:36,556 --> 00:03:40,556 Speaker 1: next and what was sort of the what led you 55 00:03:40,636 --> 00:03:43,596 Speaker 1: on the particular course that you're on now. It's a 56 00:03:43,596 --> 00:03:45,876 Speaker 1: fair old punch when you come out of a big 57 00:03:45,916 --> 00:03:48,756 Speaker 1: position like that. You don't realize how tired you are 58 00:03:48,876 --> 00:03:51,636 Speaker 1: until you stop. So I did give myself a little 59 00:03:51,636 --> 00:03:54,396 Speaker 1: bit of time to do some grieving about what was 60 00:03:54,476 --> 00:03:58,036 Speaker 1: lost in some physical recovery. But in that period I 61 00:03:58,116 --> 00:04:01,356 Speaker 1: tried to think through what is it about this that 62 00:04:01,436 --> 00:04:03,356 Speaker 1: I want to take with me and what is it 63 00:04:03,396 --> 00:04:06,436 Speaker 1: I want to discard? And when I worked my way 64 00:04:06,436 --> 00:04:09,796 Speaker 1: through that, it was clear that the ongoing passion I'd 65 00:04:09,836 --> 00:04:12,916 Speaker 1: had was around education, so I wanted to take that 66 00:04:13,036 --> 00:04:17,396 Speaker 1: with me. And then, having had a really transformative set 67 00:04:17,396 --> 00:04:20,956 Speaker 1: of experiences around being a female leader, I wanted to 68 00:04:20,996 --> 00:04:23,636 Speaker 1: do something to make a difference for other women and 69 00:04:23,676 --> 00:04:26,316 Speaker 1: their prospects for coming through for leadership. It's what do 70 00:04:26,356 --> 00:04:30,836 Speaker 1: you use the word grieving? But so you didn't think 71 00:04:30,876 --> 00:04:33,436 Speaker 1: of it. I mean, as I would have said, you 72 00:04:33,476 --> 00:04:36,836 Speaker 1: would have come out of it with a sense of triumph. 73 00:04:36,956 --> 00:04:40,636 Speaker 1: Oh no, you don't. There aren't too many elegant ways 74 00:04:40,716 --> 00:04:46,036 Speaker 1: out of politics. Former Australian Prime Minister Paul Keating rang 75 00:04:46,156 --> 00:04:49,916 Speaker 1: me the day after I lost office and by way 76 00:04:49,956 --> 00:04:52,916 Speaker 1: of consolation, said to me, we all get taken out 77 00:04:52,916 --> 00:04:56,436 Speaker 1: in a box. Love. Thanks for that, Paul. But the 78 00:04:56,476 --> 00:05:00,076 Speaker 1: truth of politics is either your party knocks you over 79 00:05:00,356 --> 00:05:04,076 Speaker 1: or the electors knock you over. Not many people actually 80 00:05:04,156 --> 00:05:07,116 Speaker 1: pick the moment that they're going to gracefully exit politics, 81 00:05:07,516 --> 00:05:10,796 Speaker 1: And so you know it's in such a public high 82 00:05:10,836 --> 00:05:13,916 Speaker 1: wire act and then such a public defeat that I 83 00:05:13,956 --> 00:05:18,196 Speaker 1: think grieving is the right word. Yeah, but you didn't 84 00:05:18,196 --> 00:05:20,396 Speaker 1: take how much consolation did you take in the fact 85 00:05:20,436 --> 00:05:23,436 Speaker 1: that you had broken through for women? You were the 86 00:05:23,436 --> 00:05:26,676 Speaker 1: first female prime minister of Australia. Oh, I'm very proud 87 00:05:26,716 --> 00:05:29,836 Speaker 1: of that, and I don't want to overdramatize this some 88 00:05:30,276 --> 00:05:33,916 Speaker 1: grieving period. I don't feel like that now, But I 89 00:05:34,196 --> 00:05:39,676 Speaker 1: did let myself have a number of weeks where I 90 00:05:39,716 --> 00:05:43,636 Speaker 1: didn't do very much. I just recuperated, and I did 91 00:05:43,716 --> 00:05:47,476 Speaker 1: allow the emotions of the loss to be with me. 92 00:05:47,876 --> 00:05:50,156 Speaker 1: And then you can put it aside. But if you've 93 00:05:50,196 --> 00:05:52,796 Speaker 1: never let it course through you, then I think it 94 00:05:52,916 --> 00:05:56,196 Speaker 1: probably manifests several years down the track, probably in a 95 00:05:56,476 --> 00:06:00,676 Speaker 1: mutated and unpleasant kind of way. But since that period, 96 00:06:00,836 --> 00:06:04,316 Speaker 1: I've been very focused on the new challenges, and when 97 00:06:04,316 --> 00:06:06,916 Speaker 1: I look back on the past, it's with a sense 98 00:06:06,956 --> 00:06:11,836 Speaker 1: of pride, with less learned, with things to share. I'm 99 00:06:11,916 --> 00:06:14,396 Speaker 1: very glad I did it, and I'm a great advocate 100 00:06:14,476 --> 00:06:17,516 Speaker 1: for people doing it. I don't think there's any better 101 00:06:17,516 --> 00:06:20,836 Speaker 1: opportunity than politics to put your values into action and 102 00:06:20,876 --> 00:06:23,916 Speaker 1: to make the most change when you said that you 103 00:06:23,996 --> 00:06:28,356 Speaker 1: came out of this experience with a desire to further 104 00:06:28,396 --> 00:06:32,396 Speaker 1: opportunities for women in positions of leadership. When you think 105 00:06:32,436 --> 00:06:35,996 Speaker 1: back in your time in office, how many female peers 106 00:06:36,036 --> 00:06:41,396 Speaker 1: did you have in your political circle? Fortunately, quite a few. 107 00:06:41,676 --> 00:06:44,796 Speaker 1: We were on a journey of change as a political party. 108 00:06:44,836 --> 00:06:47,036 Speaker 1: We'd had a lot of women come in around the 109 00:06:47,076 --> 00:06:50,716 Speaker 1: time I came into parliament in the mid nineteen nineties, 110 00:06:50,956 --> 00:06:54,276 Speaker 1: and so some of my most senior ministerial colleagues were women, 111 00:06:55,116 --> 00:06:58,196 Speaker 1: Jenny Macklin and Nicola Roxon and Tanya pleber Sek, and 112 00:06:58,236 --> 00:07:01,916 Speaker 1: the list goes on, Penny Wong. So I did feel 113 00:07:02,116 --> 00:07:05,716 Speaker 1: well supported and surrounded by women. Are still a minority 114 00:07:06,236 --> 00:07:09,356 Speaker 1: in our political party, in the ministry and certainly in 115 00:07:09,396 --> 00:07:13,276 Speaker 1: the Parliament, but a sense of sisterhood there. Yeah, what 116 00:07:13,436 --> 00:07:16,596 Speaker 1: percentage when you were primaries to what percentage of parliament was? 117 00:07:16,956 --> 00:07:21,236 Speaker 1: Were women round? About twenty five percent in the House 118 00:07:21,276 --> 00:07:24,036 Speaker 1: of Representatives and about a third in the Senate. And 119 00:07:24,116 --> 00:07:28,156 Speaker 1: that number had already increased dramatically over the course of 120 00:07:28,556 --> 00:07:30,916 Speaker 1: going back at ten or fifteen years previously, what would 121 00:07:30,916 --> 00:07:34,596 Speaker 1: it have been? Oh, yes, that had increased dramatically. If 122 00:07:34,636 --> 00:07:38,836 Speaker 1: you went back to the early nineteen nineties, the figure 123 00:07:38,876 --> 00:07:42,756 Speaker 1: would have been around fourteen percent for the Parliament. So yes, 124 00:07:42,796 --> 00:07:45,796 Speaker 1: there'd been a big change, and particularly a big change 125 00:07:45,836 --> 00:07:49,636 Speaker 1: in the Labor Party because we'd adopted an affirmative action rules, 126 00:07:49,716 --> 00:07:52,556 Speaker 1: so a certain percentage of seats had to go to women, 127 00:07:52,756 --> 00:07:55,556 Speaker 1: and that percentage had grown over time to forty percent. 128 00:07:55,756 --> 00:07:58,916 Speaker 1: So a very dramatic change in Labor. Yeah. Yeah, I 129 00:07:58,916 --> 00:08:02,756 Speaker 1: want to come back to the role of these those 130 00:08:02,836 --> 00:08:07,116 Speaker 1: kinds of rules in terms of bringing about changes opposed 131 00:08:07,116 --> 00:08:10,996 Speaker 1: to attitudes. I think it's really important one, but I 132 00:08:11,036 --> 00:08:14,036 Speaker 1: wanted to before I get there. I'm curious about a 133 00:08:14,036 --> 00:08:16,716 Speaker 1: couple of things. One is that this question of numbers. 134 00:08:17,196 --> 00:08:20,276 Speaker 1: So if you said it was twenty five percent when 135 00:08:20,276 --> 00:08:22,716 Speaker 1: you were there, how high does it have to be 136 00:08:22,716 --> 00:08:27,036 Speaker 1: before the issue starts to go away. I'm not sure 137 00:08:27,076 --> 00:08:29,636 Speaker 1: that you can put a mathematical number on that, but 138 00:08:29,716 --> 00:08:34,316 Speaker 1: there's plenty of research that says, you know, one woman 139 00:08:34,556 --> 00:08:36,956 Speaker 1: can't make the difference, but once you get up to 140 00:08:37,076 --> 00:08:40,276 Speaker 1: figures like a third, then you do start to see changes, 141 00:08:40,556 --> 00:08:43,636 Speaker 1: And intuitively that seems to me to be around about 142 00:08:43,796 --> 00:08:46,876 Speaker 1: right that to have an impact on cultural mores and 143 00:08:46,996 --> 00:08:50,676 Speaker 1: the way that institutions work, you need at least a third. Yeah, 144 00:08:50,796 --> 00:08:54,036 Speaker 1: do you think that had there been a third or see, 145 00:08:54,076 --> 00:08:57,436 Speaker 1: let's see, forty percent of the Parliament have been female 146 00:08:57,436 --> 00:08:59,396 Speaker 1: at the time you were Prime Minister, that would have 147 00:08:59,436 --> 00:09:04,876 Speaker 1: tempered some of the misogyny virtue feast, not necessarily, unfortunately. 148 00:09:04,916 --> 00:09:07,116 Speaker 1: I'd love to be able to say yes to that question. 149 00:09:07,356 --> 00:09:11,396 Speaker 1: But it wasn't just within the Parliament that there was 150 00:09:11,436 --> 00:09:14,756 Speaker 1: an issue about gender and gendered insults. That was you know, 151 00:09:14,836 --> 00:09:18,516 Speaker 1: profoundly in the media, in social media, and so I 152 00:09:18,556 --> 00:09:21,756 Speaker 1: think it would have flowed anyway. And then because the 153 00:09:21,836 --> 00:09:25,356 Speaker 1: political contest is a fierce one, and I think it 154 00:09:25,356 --> 00:09:28,316 Speaker 1: should be. I mean, you're contending about values and big 155 00:09:28,356 --> 00:09:32,316 Speaker 1: picture issues, so people should be strongly engaged in that 156 00:09:32,356 --> 00:09:35,636 Speaker 1: clash of ideas. But because that clash is so strong, 157 00:09:36,676 --> 00:09:39,796 Speaker 1: it's you know, it would really be naive to say, well, 158 00:09:39,996 --> 00:09:43,636 Speaker 1: women never participate in using that gendered imagery. That's not 159 00:09:43,716 --> 00:09:47,076 Speaker 1: my experience. Yeah, but it doesn't change the claimate for 160 00:09:47,196 --> 00:09:50,236 Speaker 1: someone in gigaging in that kind of rhetoric. Is it 161 00:09:50,276 --> 00:09:52,116 Speaker 1: different when they look around it and they see lots 162 00:09:52,116 --> 00:09:54,996 Speaker 1: of female faces and when they look around, do they 163 00:09:54,996 --> 00:09:58,796 Speaker 1: have last permission to speak that way when they're in 164 00:09:58,916 --> 00:10:03,876 Speaker 1: a more female environment. I think ultimately, the more women 165 00:10:03,916 --> 00:10:07,116 Speaker 1: there are, the less permission there is to speak that way. 166 00:10:07,476 --> 00:10:13,956 Speaker 1: And second, the more or public pressure and advocacy about 167 00:10:13,996 --> 00:10:17,836 Speaker 1: being better about women and leadership, the more things will change. 168 00:10:17,996 --> 00:10:21,116 Speaker 1: I mean, I lived with the phenomenon of social media, 169 00:10:21,316 --> 00:10:24,676 Speaker 1: but you know, it was relatively recent. I mean, social 170 00:10:24,716 --> 00:10:27,876 Speaker 1: media is being turbo charged in the time since, and 171 00:10:27,956 --> 00:10:32,196 Speaker 1: now social media is often used to call out someone 172 00:10:32,236 --> 00:10:35,156 Speaker 1: who's engaged in sexist conduct. I mean, this is the 173 00:10:35,236 --> 00:10:37,956 Speaker 1: legacy of the Me Too movement, but it goes beyond 174 00:10:38,556 --> 00:10:41,756 Speaker 1: the issue of sexual harassment. There wasn't much of that 175 00:10:41,876 --> 00:10:44,116 Speaker 1: when I was there, so in some ways we were 176 00:10:44,116 --> 00:10:47,316 Speaker 1: getting the negative side of social media without that more 177 00:10:47,396 --> 00:10:52,316 Speaker 1: positive side of trying to advocate for better ways of 178 00:10:52,396 --> 00:10:57,156 Speaker 1: including people in dialogue without name calling or using gendered insults. 179 00:10:57,276 --> 00:11:01,676 Speaker 1: There's an interesting distinction between the participation of women as 180 00:11:01,716 --> 00:11:05,196 Speaker 1: a whole and participation of women in the highest levels 181 00:11:05,196 --> 00:11:08,036 Speaker 1: of leadership. And I'm wondering, are there one problem or 182 00:11:08,036 --> 00:11:11,436 Speaker 1: are there two problems? Can you if you solve the 183 00:11:11,556 --> 00:11:15,556 Speaker 1: first question of general participation, do you inevitably solve the second, 184 00:11:15,676 --> 00:11:18,636 Speaker 1: or is there a whole different battle that has to 185 00:11:18,636 --> 00:11:21,716 Speaker 1: be fired about getting women from the backbenches to the 186 00:11:22,596 --> 00:11:27,436 Speaker 1: cabinet or to the prime minister's office. I think they're related, 187 00:11:28,396 --> 00:11:32,756 Speaker 1: but not the same problem. So you're never going to 188 00:11:32,796 --> 00:11:36,876 Speaker 1: see equal ministries or women be prime ministers an equal 189 00:11:36,916 --> 00:11:39,916 Speaker 1: amount of time unless you've got a backbench that's round 190 00:11:39,956 --> 00:11:42,276 Speaker 1: about half half, because you don't even have people in 191 00:11:42,276 --> 00:11:47,356 Speaker 1: the qualifying ring. But you then still need to change 192 00:11:47,396 --> 00:11:49,876 Speaker 1: a set of other things to make sure women are 193 00:11:49,876 --> 00:11:56,116 Speaker 1: coming through for leadership, including this public media reception and 194 00:11:56,196 --> 00:11:59,596 Speaker 1: how gendered that is very practical set of questions for 195 00:11:59,636 --> 00:12:03,516 Speaker 1: women with kids around work and family life. Even the 196 00:12:03,916 --> 00:12:08,676 Speaker 1: attraction or lack of it for women to these combative 197 00:12:08,796 --> 00:12:13,356 Speaker 1: sort of occupations. I think all of that needs some attention, 198 00:12:13,756 --> 00:12:17,916 Speaker 1: but it starts with getting half half on the back bench. Yeah, 199 00:12:17,996 --> 00:12:20,236 Speaker 1: in terms of because I was thinking this in terms 200 00:12:20,276 --> 00:12:22,836 Speaker 1: of if you think about from the perspective of a voter, 201 00:12:23,196 --> 00:12:26,676 Speaker 1: I've always wondered whether the act of voting for a 202 00:12:26,716 --> 00:12:31,556 Speaker 1: female candidate prepares you adequately for the act of supporting 203 00:12:31,596 --> 00:12:36,476 Speaker 1: a female leader, or whether one might actually be an 204 00:12:36,516 --> 00:12:39,676 Speaker 1: excuse night to do the other. That because I've voted 205 00:12:39,716 --> 00:12:42,036 Speaker 1: for a female candidate and no longer feel I need 206 00:12:42,036 --> 00:12:44,876 Speaker 1: to support a female female leader. So the get I've 207 00:12:44,916 --> 00:12:49,156 Speaker 1: given it the office kind of. I think in this 208 00:12:49,276 --> 00:12:52,556 Speaker 1: area of gender and leadership there is a bit of 209 00:12:52,636 --> 00:12:55,996 Speaker 1: giving it the office. I think that's true in the 210 00:12:56,036 --> 00:12:59,436 Speaker 1: corporate world as well as in politics. There is actually 211 00:12:59,516 --> 00:13:04,596 Speaker 1: research that shows that many chairs of boards of directors 212 00:13:04,636 --> 00:13:07,276 Speaker 1: and CEOs, when they get the one woman, you know, 213 00:13:07,316 --> 00:13:09,356 Speaker 1: the one woman on the board, the one and in 214 00:13:09,396 --> 00:13:12,756 Speaker 1: the c suite, then go take that box, that gender thing. 215 00:13:12,796 --> 00:13:15,756 Speaker 1: We've done that, let's move on. So a bit of 216 00:13:15,796 --> 00:13:20,796 Speaker 1: giving it the office. I think in politics, voting for 217 00:13:20,876 --> 00:13:25,276 Speaker 1: a female candidate is a great start, but we shouldn't 218 00:13:25,276 --> 00:13:28,356 Speaker 1: assume just because people are prepared to vote for female 219 00:13:28,396 --> 00:13:31,516 Speaker 1: candidates that they'll look at a female leader and receive 220 00:13:31,636 --> 00:13:36,076 Speaker 1: her and evaluate her equally. There's plenty of psychological research 221 00:13:36,156 --> 00:13:40,076 Speaker 1: about all unconscious biases, the little whispers in the back 222 00:13:40,116 --> 00:13:43,236 Speaker 1: of our head that tell us that when women come 223 00:13:43,276 --> 00:13:47,236 Speaker 1: through for leadership, they're probably not very likable, probably very 224 00:13:47,276 --> 00:13:51,756 Speaker 1: hard bitten, difficult to get along with, and that then 225 00:13:51,996 --> 00:13:56,116 Speaker 1: refracts into how much sense of connection do you feel 226 00:13:56,116 --> 00:13:58,716 Speaker 1: to the leader, how much are you prepared to follow her, 227 00:13:58,916 --> 00:14:01,996 Speaker 1: how critical or harsh your evaluation is if she gets 228 00:14:02,036 --> 00:14:05,636 Speaker 1: into some political trouble, And inevitably, if you're in politics, 229 00:14:05,636 --> 00:14:08,196 Speaker 1: you'll get into trouble one day. So I think that 230 00:14:08,276 --> 00:14:10,876 Speaker 1: there's a set of other things that have to happen. 231 00:14:11,396 --> 00:14:15,116 Speaker 1: But I don't think people sit there and say, oh, 232 00:14:15,156 --> 00:14:17,916 Speaker 1: I've voted for a woman, so job done. I do 233 00:14:17,996 --> 00:14:20,916 Speaker 1: think that there's an appetite in the community to see 234 00:14:20,996 --> 00:14:24,676 Speaker 1: more women come through. If your task is to increase 235 00:14:25,436 --> 00:14:28,076 Speaker 1: your goal is to increase the number of female leaders, 236 00:14:28,196 --> 00:14:30,796 Speaker 1: particularly in areas where there have been very few, I'm 237 00:14:30,836 --> 00:14:34,436 Speaker 1: curious about how strategic one should be. So I'm remembering 238 00:14:35,076 --> 00:14:37,916 Speaker 1: during the Civil rights movement in America. You know, there 239 00:14:37,996 --> 00:14:40,996 Speaker 1: was a Rosa Parks was the woman who was chosen 240 00:14:41,636 --> 00:14:45,756 Speaker 1: to desegregate the buses of Montgomery, and she was chosen 241 00:14:46,076 --> 00:14:49,836 Speaker 1: very deliberately. They wanted a woman of a certain age, 242 00:14:49,876 --> 00:14:53,636 Speaker 1: of a certain background, of impeccable character, of and on, 243 00:14:53,676 --> 00:14:55,556 Speaker 1: because they knew they had one shot to sort of 244 00:14:55,556 --> 00:14:58,636 Speaker 1: make their And I had the same feeling when I met. 245 00:15:00,756 --> 00:15:04,396 Speaker 1: She's now left, but she was the Secretary of the 246 00:15:04,436 --> 00:15:07,716 Speaker 1: Air Force in the current administration in America. I happen 247 00:15:07,796 --> 00:15:10,836 Speaker 1: to meet her and I thought, Oh, there's a woman. 248 00:15:10,876 --> 00:15:15,236 Speaker 1: If she ran, could become president. I don't know why 249 00:15:15,236 --> 00:15:17,956 Speaker 1: I felt that, but I felt that, and we can 250 00:15:17,996 --> 00:15:20,116 Speaker 1: talk about why I felt that. But I'm curious about 251 00:15:20,716 --> 00:15:23,996 Speaker 1: is that a worthwhile activity, that kind of strategizing at 252 00:15:24,036 --> 00:15:27,156 Speaker 1: the beginning about who and do you have it? Do 253 00:15:27,196 --> 00:15:28,796 Speaker 1: you have a picture in your mind about who the 254 00:15:28,796 --> 00:15:34,956 Speaker 1: pioneer should be. I'm really cautious about that. And I'm 255 00:15:34,996 --> 00:15:39,036 Speaker 1: cautious about it because I sort of learned my feminism 256 00:15:39,556 --> 00:15:43,836 Speaker 1: doing things like reading and summers. A great Australian feminist 257 00:15:43,916 --> 00:15:48,396 Speaker 1: wrote an incredibly important book called Damn Who's and God's Police, 258 00:15:48,876 --> 00:15:52,516 Speaker 1: and it was an analysis of women's roles in the 259 00:15:52,596 --> 00:15:57,716 Speaker 1: early days of when the United Kingdom started sending convicts 260 00:15:57,716 --> 00:16:00,596 Speaker 1: to Australia, and she was making the point that there 261 00:16:00,596 --> 00:16:03,636 Speaker 1: were really only two ways to be a woman. You 262 00:16:03,676 --> 00:16:07,356 Speaker 1: were either the virtuous one or you were a damned whore, 263 00:16:07,556 --> 00:16:11,196 Speaker 1: and there was nothing in between. And I would worry 264 00:16:11,236 --> 00:16:15,596 Speaker 1: that we're going to uplift that template and say, you know, 265 00:16:15,956 --> 00:16:21,596 Speaker 1: here's Pearl pure Heart, who is this incredible person who's 266 00:16:21,796 --> 00:16:24,636 Speaker 1: never put anybody's needs in front of her own and 267 00:16:24,756 --> 00:16:28,836 Speaker 1: she's the perfect candidate. You know, why do we lift 268 00:16:28,956 --> 00:16:30,956 Speaker 1: that burden up and put it on the shoulders of 269 00:16:30,956 --> 00:16:32,796 Speaker 1: women when we don't lift it up and put it 270 00:16:32,796 --> 00:16:36,636 Speaker 1: on the shoulders of men. They can be self interested, petty, 271 00:16:38,276 --> 00:16:41,916 Speaker 1: angry and still end up president and prime minister and 272 00:16:42,116 --> 00:16:45,076 Speaker 1: all of the other things around the world, CEO, chair 273 00:16:45,116 --> 00:16:50,396 Speaker 1: of the board. So I'm anxious about that, but I'm 274 00:16:50,436 --> 00:16:55,356 Speaker 1: not naive either. You know, when the US, and obviously 275 00:16:55,396 --> 00:16:59,796 Speaker 1: we're in primary season now, when the US next looks 276 00:16:59,836 --> 00:17:03,556 Speaker 1: towards a female candidate, I think there will be a 277 00:17:03,636 --> 00:17:07,436 Speaker 1: lot of reflection on what is it that will make 278 00:17:07,516 --> 00:17:11,716 Speaker 1: her the most electable, particularly having been through the scarring 279 00:17:11,796 --> 00:17:15,876 Speaker 1: experience with Hillary. But just something in it me just 280 00:17:15,996 --> 00:17:20,156 Speaker 1: feels quite itchy and irritated by the stereotyping. But it's 281 00:17:20,196 --> 00:17:24,156 Speaker 1: interesting though that the rules are different for the dominant 282 00:17:24,156 --> 00:17:27,596 Speaker 1: group and the group that's trying to get in right. 283 00:17:27,716 --> 00:17:31,596 Speaker 1: The dominant group has extraordinary latitude and who they as you. 284 00:17:31,996 --> 00:17:41,516 Speaker 1: I don't need to nickname names, but you can be boorish, narcissistic, unqualified, 285 00:17:41,516 --> 00:17:44,476 Speaker 1: ill equipped for you know, unknowledgeable. I could go on 286 00:17:44,596 --> 00:17:48,076 Speaker 1: and be elected as a man like bar is quite low, 287 00:17:48,356 --> 00:17:51,796 Speaker 1: but the bar very high for the first woman or 288 00:17:51,836 --> 00:17:55,036 Speaker 1: the second reading the second woman, that's the only reason 289 00:17:55,116 --> 00:17:57,796 Speaker 1: I But now I'm thinking of this woman who was 290 00:17:57,836 --> 00:18:00,076 Speaker 1: the secretary of the Air Force. But I'm wondering, is 291 00:18:00,116 --> 00:18:04,636 Speaker 1: my perception of what electability is am I simply reinforcing 292 00:18:05,516 --> 00:18:07,996 Speaker 1: my own stereotypes about women when I when I go 293 00:18:08,116 --> 00:18:11,636 Speaker 1: through the analysis of what electability means, I think it 294 00:18:11,836 --> 00:18:14,516 Speaker 1: is a little problematic in the sense that there's a 295 00:18:14,596 --> 00:18:20,316 Speaker 1: set of assumptions about potential stereotyping of women candidates. So 296 00:18:20,676 --> 00:18:23,116 Speaker 1: I think you're attracted to a candidate with a military 297 00:18:23,116 --> 00:18:27,116 Speaker 1: background because you're working off the assumption that a female 298 00:18:27,116 --> 00:18:28,796 Speaker 1: candidate is going to be looked at and people are 299 00:18:28,796 --> 00:18:33,116 Speaker 1: going to think, is she too soft? Press the button 300 00:18:33,196 --> 00:18:35,516 Speaker 1: one day if that's ever needed in the defense of 301 00:18:35,516 --> 00:18:38,996 Speaker 1: the United States, And so you're all ready going for 302 00:18:39,036 --> 00:18:43,916 Speaker 1: the stereotype and trying to then counteract the stereotype in 303 00:18:43,996 --> 00:18:49,276 Speaker 1: the candidate. And that's practical and smart, and if you 304 00:18:49,316 --> 00:18:52,196 Speaker 1: were getting a job as a political advisor, you'd probably 305 00:18:52,276 --> 00:18:54,916 Speaker 1: need to be doing all of those things. But I 306 00:18:55,156 --> 00:18:59,516 Speaker 1: still worry about the stereotyping underneath. Is the problem different? 307 00:18:59,876 --> 00:19:04,196 Speaker 1: For business and politics. Is it harder to get women 308 00:19:04,236 --> 00:19:07,356 Speaker 1: into the c suite in corporation and it is to 309 00:19:07,396 --> 00:19:11,276 Speaker 1: get a woman into a relationship position in politics or 310 00:19:11,356 --> 00:19:14,636 Speaker 1: the opposite. I think they're different kinds of hard, And 311 00:19:14,676 --> 00:19:17,596 Speaker 1: if we look at the global statistics, it's telling us 312 00:19:17,636 --> 00:19:20,956 Speaker 1: that they're different kinds of hard, because the number of 313 00:19:21,156 --> 00:19:25,156 Speaker 1: women who are either political leaders or senior managers is 314 00:19:25,196 --> 00:19:28,356 Speaker 1: around about the same in the twenty five percent zone globally. 315 00:19:28,676 --> 00:19:31,836 Speaker 1: When we actually look at women on corporate boards globally, 316 00:19:31,836 --> 00:19:34,676 Speaker 1: it's down at the fifteen percent range, And by the 317 00:19:34,716 --> 00:19:37,476 Speaker 1: time you're talking about senior leaders in it, you're down 318 00:19:37,476 --> 00:19:40,196 Speaker 1: at the nine percent range. So it's a different kind 319 00:19:40,196 --> 00:19:43,196 Speaker 1: of hard. I think the heart in politics is a 320 00:19:43,236 --> 00:19:46,636 Speaker 1: lot about how women are received in the public square 321 00:19:46,716 --> 00:19:49,676 Speaker 1: and treated in the public square. I think a lot 322 00:19:49,716 --> 00:19:54,836 Speaker 1: of the hard in business is about the tracks the 323 00:19:54,916 --> 00:19:59,396 Speaker 1: pipeline where the women are in the areas that take 324 00:19:59,476 --> 00:20:02,796 Speaker 1: you to leadership already from the start of their careers 325 00:20:03,036 --> 00:20:05,676 Speaker 1: in those areas that might take you to being head 326 00:20:05,676 --> 00:20:08,996 Speaker 1: of HR, but no further. And then there's a set 327 00:20:09,036 --> 00:20:12,916 Speaker 1: of unconscious biases and male networks which come into play 328 00:20:12,956 --> 00:20:15,556 Speaker 1: that make it harder for women to come through. When 329 00:20:15,596 --> 00:20:17,956 Speaker 1: it comes to business, there's been a lot of focus 330 00:20:18,116 --> 00:20:20,876 Speaker 1: on the role of the number of women on boards. 331 00:20:21,396 --> 00:20:25,316 Speaker 1: I'm curious, do do we think that solving the board 332 00:20:25,436 --> 00:20:30,396 Speaker 1: problem is the most important thing in in increasing a 333 00:20:30,476 --> 00:20:34,596 Speaker 1: number of women in the c suite? Or is that? Well? 334 00:20:34,916 --> 00:20:37,436 Speaker 1: I was, well, why is that such a priority? I 335 00:20:37,476 --> 00:20:41,476 Speaker 1: would naively I would have said that's down on my 336 00:20:41,556 --> 00:20:47,116 Speaker 1: list of things of priorities. I think it's important in 337 00:20:47,916 --> 00:20:52,436 Speaker 1: the role modeling effect because boards are very celebrated and public. 338 00:20:53,556 --> 00:20:57,556 Speaker 1: There is evidence that more women on boards do make 339 00:20:57,596 --> 00:21:01,076 Speaker 1: a difference to the nature of the conversation and particularly 340 00:21:01,156 --> 00:21:05,036 Speaker 1: the nature of the conversation around diversity and inclusion, so 341 00:21:05,076 --> 00:21:08,476 Speaker 1: it's a trigger point for them getting further change. But 342 00:21:08,556 --> 00:21:10,676 Speaker 1: I agree with you that if we ended up with 343 00:21:10,716 --> 00:21:14,236 Speaker 1: businesses where the boards were always half half, but when 344 00:21:14,276 --> 00:21:16,996 Speaker 1: you looked at the pipeline in the business, you still 345 00:21:17,116 --> 00:21:21,356 Speaker 1: saw women clustered in the junior grades, big gender pay gaps, 346 00:21:21,636 --> 00:21:24,276 Speaker 1: are not enough attention paid to work in family life, 347 00:21:24,276 --> 00:21:26,956 Speaker 1: that would not be a victory. I think we want 348 00:21:26,996 --> 00:21:31,636 Speaker 1: every point in a woman's life journey, and particularly from 349 00:21:31,756 --> 00:21:34,196 Speaker 1: the work I'm doing at King's College, London, with the 350 00:21:34,236 --> 00:21:38,036 Speaker 1: Global Institute for Women's Leadership. We're focused on the work journey. 351 00:21:38,396 --> 00:21:41,796 Speaker 1: We want every point in that to be one where 352 00:21:41,836 --> 00:21:44,756 Speaker 1: a woman is not treated in a lesser way than 353 00:21:44,796 --> 00:21:48,516 Speaker 1: a man. Yeah, so let's talk about, first of all, 354 00:21:48,556 --> 00:21:50,996 Speaker 1: who does this. Well, when you look around in your 355 00:21:50,996 --> 00:21:54,276 Speaker 1: current position, King's College, in this program you just talked about, 356 00:21:54,636 --> 00:21:56,596 Speaker 1: you must look around the world and you must say, Okay, 357 00:21:56,596 --> 00:22:01,076 Speaker 1: there is someone who's a group, country, community, what have you, 358 00:22:01,596 --> 00:22:06,196 Speaker 1: that's that's solving this problem in a way that we 359 00:22:06,956 --> 00:22:12,316 Speaker 1: can use as a model. So your models. We're certainly 360 00:22:12,356 --> 00:22:16,356 Speaker 1: looking for models, but there's an information problem that we've 361 00:22:16,356 --> 00:22:19,196 Speaker 1: almost got to solve first, which is we've got any 362 00:22:19,276 --> 00:22:23,556 Speaker 1: number of indexes about gender, but they are not focused 363 00:22:23,596 --> 00:22:27,276 Speaker 1: on this question of women's leadership. And because they tend 364 00:22:27,596 --> 00:22:33,036 Speaker 1: to include statistics about women's general health, women's education levels, 365 00:22:33,356 --> 00:22:37,276 Speaker 1: then they cluster at the top the wealthiest nations in 366 00:22:37,356 --> 00:22:40,636 Speaker 1: earth that have largely solved those problems, but they don't 367 00:22:40,676 --> 00:22:43,196 Speaker 1: give you a fine grained look at women and leadership. 368 00:22:43,596 --> 00:22:46,676 Speaker 1: So we are working to build an index that would 369 00:22:46,756 --> 00:22:49,036 Speaker 1: do that, which would enable you to just do a 370 00:22:49,076 --> 00:22:55,036 Speaker 1: comparison on women leaders politics, business, civil society. The law technology. 371 00:22:56,236 --> 00:22:59,236 Speaker 1: If we had that information, we'd be able to surface 372 00:22:59,316 --> 00:23:03,636 Speaker 1: some clearer examples. But just looking at the moment you 373 00:23:03,676 --> 00:23:08,756 Speaker 1: get all sorts of interesting things popping up. Malaysia there 374 00:23:08,756 --> 00:23:12,156 Speaker 1: are more women in it, far more than the global 375 00:23:12,156 --> 00:23:14,436 Speaker 1: statistics would lead you to believe. So then you can 376 00:23:14,436 --> 00:23:18,156 Speaker 1: go and unpack why is that Slovenia we looked at 377 00:23:18,196 --> 00:23:20,876 Speaker 1: because there are far more women judges than the global 378 00:23:20,916 --> 00:23:24,356 Speaker 1: statistics would lead you to expect. When we unpack that, 379 00:23:24,516 --> 00:23:27,676 Speaker 1: we actually found that they've got a very rules based 380 00:23:27,956 --> 00:23:32,076 Speaker 1: legal system with very little discretion. So being a judge 381 00:23:32,196 --> 00:23:34,996 Speaker 1: is not viewed as that fantastic a job. It's a 382 00:23:35,036 --> 00:23:38,756 Speaker 1: more mechanistic job. So we want to get more information 383 00:23:38,876 --> 00:23:43,996 Speaker 1: to keep looking. Many big businesses, you know, I'm thinking 384 00:23:43,996 --> 00:23:47,036 Speaker 1: of the biggest global companies in the world are very 385 00:23:47,356 --> 00:23:51,036 Speaker 1: serious about this agenda. And you know, you can point 386 00:23:51,076 --> 00:23:54,996 Speaker 1: to individual things they're doing that are working, but no 387 00:23:55,036 --> 00:23:57,516 Speaker 1: one's done the big solve. There's no one that you 388 00:23:57,556 --> 00:23:59,956 Speaker 1: can just point to and say, if everybody did what 389 00:24:00,276 --> 00:24:02,596 Speaker 1: X is doing, then we would fix this. But if 390 00:24:02,596 --> 00:24:05,076 Speaker 1: I was I was a twenty one year old woman 391 00:24:05,396 --> 00:24:08,956 Speaker 1: whose ambition was to be the leader of a country, 392 00:24:09,116 --> 00:24:11,396 Speaker 1: and in the world, and you could wave a magic 393 00:24:11,476 --> 00:24:14,876 Speaker 1: wand and make me a citizen of any country in 394 00:24:14,876 --> 00:24:18,356 Speaker 1: the world. Where would you Where would you send me 395 00:24:18,436 --> 00:24:22,756 Speaker 1: to maximize my chances? The statistics that tell me that 396 00:24:22,796 --> 00:24:26,196 Speaker 1: I'd have to send you to Iceland or one of 397 00:24:26,236 --> 00:24:31,796 Speaker 1: the Nordic Scandinavian style countries. The statistics would tell you 398 00:24:31,836 --> 00:24:34,156 Speaker 1: I could send you to wander But then we'd have 399 00:24:34,196 --> 00:24:36,796 Speaker 1: a complex debate about how much power is in the 400 00:24:36,876 --> 00:24:40,396 Speaker 1: parliament versus how much is in the hands of the president. 401 00:24:40,796 --> 00:24:43,236 Speaker 1: But they're the nations on Earth that come up with 402 00:24:43,316 --> 00:24:46,836 Speaker 1: the largest numbers for women. MP's on the business, could 403 00:24:46,876 --> 00:24:51,716 Speaker 1: send you to New Zealand? Yes, Yes, on the business? 404 00:24:51,756 --> 00:24:55,556 Speaker 1: What did the business say? The one of the questions 405 00:24:55,596 --> 00:24:58,116 Speaker 1: I had about the business was there seem to be 406 00:24:58,156 --> 00:25:00,036 Speaker 1: two You were talking about how there's very few women 407 00:25:00,076 --> 00:25:04,116 Speaker 1: in a T and women tend to be overrepresented in 408 00:25:04,356 --> 00:25:07,796 Speaker 1: HR and HR is not nearly that kind of pipeline 409 00:25:07,836 --> 00:25:11,156 Speaker 1: to upper leadership as areas for companies? What is the 410 00:25:11,316 --> 00:25:16,276 Speaker 1: rate approach to solving our problem? Is it elevating those 411 00:25:17,316 --> 00:25:19,796 Speaker 1: areas where women are already strung so that you could 412 00:25:20,076 --> 00:25:23,996 Speaker 1: it becomes legitimate to become CEO if you came up 413 00:25:24,036 --> 00:25:26,436 Speaker 1: through HI or is it getting women out of HR. 414 00:25:26,716 --> 00:25:28,796 Speaker 1: I think it's a bit of both, and I think 415 00:25:28,836 --> 00:25:33,556 Speaker 1: it's a profound reworking of what we think merit is. 416 00:25:34,196 --> 00:25:37,436 Speaker 1: And there's some fantastic writing on this at the moment, 417 00:25:37,436 --> 00:25:40,676 Speaker 1: a great book about why we keep promoting incompetent men, 418 00:25:41,196 --> 00:25:44,396 Speaker 1: and it challenges us to look at the way in 419 00:25:44,476 --> 00:25:49,716 Speaker 1: which selections get done in businesses. So our interviews where 420 00:25:49,756 --> 00:25:54,356 Speaker 1: we look really and we're assessing charisma the best way 421 00:25:54,516 --> 00:25:58,316 Speaker 1: of selecting people to go into jobs. And then as 422 00:25:58,316 --> 00:26:03,276 Speaker 1: we go up the promotion track, the frames around men 423 00:26:03,356 --> 00:26:06,276 Speaker 1: and women. You know, he's always there in the office, 424 00:26:06,356 --> 00:26:11,756 Speaker 1: so valuing sort of presentism rather than outcomes. People who 425 00:26:11,756 --> 00:26:15,596 Speaker 1: have got a lot of confidence, who are there grasping 426 00:26:15,596 --> 00:26:19,156 Speaker 1: at opportunities, who may not be leading their teams well 427 00:26:19,236 --> 00:26:23,396 Speaker 1: or actually delivering, but everybody notices them. They are more 428 00:26:23,516 --> 00:26:26,236 Speaker 1: likely to be the ones that get promoted. And he's 429 00:26:26,276 --> 00:26:30,236 Speaker 1: done in this book, are the author a wonderful analysis 430 00:26:30,316 --> 00:26:33,756 Speaker 1: of how that is gendered, how our very view about 431 00:26:33,796 --> 00:26:36,876 Speaker 1: what merit is is gendered. Let's let's talk about the 432 00:26:36,956 --> 00:26:40,436 Speaker 1: kinds of steps one would practical steps one would like 433 00:26:40,556 --> 00:26:42,716 Speaker 1: to see to kind of reverse that. But let's start 434 00:26:42,756 --> 00:26:45,356 Speaker 1: with that. So if in fact that where we assess 435 00:26:45,436 --> 00:26:48,436 Speaker 1: merit is gendered, how do we ungender it? How do 436 00:26:48,476 --> 00:26:51,556 Speaker 1: we ungender it? Well, first, I'd say we don't know 437 00:26:51,636 --> 00:26:53,556 Speaker 1: everything we need to know, which is why we're still 438 00:26:53,596 --> 00:26:57,396 Speaker 1: researching it. But of the things we do know, gender 439 00:26:57,476 --> 00:27:01,436 Speaker 1: blind selection processes make a difference. So instead of sending 440 00:27:01,436 --> 00:27:05,676 Speaker 1: in applications you know John Smith, you know Sue Jones 441 00:27:05,676 --> 00:27:08,636 Speaker 1: where you can see from the front, you take the 442 00:27:08,716 --> 00:27:14,236 Speaker 1: names of other forms of identifiers. Instead of doing CVS 443 00:27:14,396 --> 00:27:18,756 Speaker 1: style explorations, you ask candidates to solve a problem and 444 00:27:18,916 --> 00:27:24,476 Speaker 1: send it in and assess on that that you in interviews. 445 00:27:24,596 --> 00:27:28,116 Speaker 1: Instead of just having a chat, which might allow a 446 00:27:28,276 --> 00:27:33,276 Speaker 1: charismatic candidate to structure the conversation, you have a very 447 00:27:33,276 --> 00:27:36,116 Speaker 1: clear set of questions that every candidate gets asked to 448 00:27:36,156 --> 00:27:39,876 Speaker 1: respond to in the same order. So you get clear comparatives, 449 00:27:40,556 --> 00:27:45,316 Speaker 1: more metrics, you around what achievement is, so not dealing 450 00:27:45,316 --> 00:27:47,836 Speaker 1: with things on the face of them, but digging behind 451 00:27:48,556 --> 00:27:51,996 Speaker 1: when you're looking at promotion tracks. All of those things 452 00:27:52,076 --> 00:27:55,276 Speaker 1: make a difference. The introduction of structure, in other words, 453 00:27:55,316 --> 00:27:59,876 Speaker 1: has the even if it's not explicitly intended to favor 454 00:27:59,916 --> 00:28:03,756 Speaker 1: one group of another has the effect of loveling the 455 00:28:03,836 --> 00:28:07,676 Speaker 1: pen playing field. Yes, it does, because if you imagine 456 00:28:07,716 --> 00:28:11,796 Speaker 1: yourself and where we all as human beings respond to this. 457 00:28:11,876 --> 00:28:14,276 Speaker 1: If you and I were sitting here now on an 458 00:28:14,276 --> 00:28:17,436 Speaker 1: interview panel, and we're going to see ten candidates today, 459 00:28:18,156 --> 00:28:21,356 Speaker 1: then the one that bounces into the room full of 460 00:28:21,396 --> 00:28:25,316 Speaker 1: confidence seems charming. You think to yourself, well, I wouldn't 461 00:28:25,356 --> 00:28:26,996 Speaker 1: mind having a drink with them at the end of 462 00:28:26,996 --> 00:28:29,436 Speaker 1: the day when we get through this bloody interviewing process, 463 00:28:30,236 --> 00:28:32,756 Speaker 1: they're the one that you're most likely at the end 464 00:28:32,796 --> 00:28:35,036 Speaker 1: of the day, when we're exhausted to say who should 465 00:28:35,036 --> 00:28:37,996 Speaker 1: we give this job to? They will be the candidate 466 00:28:38,036 --> 00:28:41,316 Speaker 1: that we remember. But have we really made a thoughtful 467 00:28:41,396 --> 00:28:46,516 Speaker 1: selection or just fallen for a sort of confidence? Charisma? 468 00:28:46,636 --> 00:28:49,596 Speaker 1: And some jobs require you know, if we were selecting 469 00:28:49,636 --> 00:28:53,076 Speaker 1: someone to be an on air television presenter, then maybe 470 00:28:53,076 --> 00:28:55,636 Speaker 1: confidence and charisma would be right at the top of 471 00:28:55,676 --> 00:28:58,236 Speaker 1: the list. But if we were running a business and 472 00:28:58,356 --> 00:29:02,436 Speaker 1: we were selecting a new head of our technical division, 473 00:29:03,316 --> 00:29:07,516 Speaker 1: or even a new head of our financial division, actually 474 00:29:07,756 --> 00:29:10,396 Speaker 1: confidence and charisma probably we aren't anywhere near the top 475 00:29:10,436 --> 00:29:12,276 Speaker 1: of the list in terms of the skills we need. 476 00:29:12,636 --> 00:29:15,516 Speaker 1: Why is searching I don't I'm not I don't disagree, 477 00:29:15,556 --> 00:29:19,756 Speaker 1: but I'm curious. Why is something I've always puzzled about it. 478 00:29:21,356 --> 00:29:26,636 Speaker 1: Why are informal selection processes that default to rewarding people 479 00:29:26,676 --> 00:29:30,356 Speaker 1: for confidence in charisma gender? There are plenty of women 480 00:29:30,356 --> 00:29:33,916 Speaker 1: who are incredibly charismatic. I've never insered why so there's 481 00:29:34,436 --> 00:29:39,276 Speaker 1: it's an attraction to a male variety of charisma that 482 00:29:39,396 --> 00:29:41,916 Speaker 1: seems to be the issue, not an attraction to charisma 483 00:29:41,956 --> 00:29:45,636 Speaker 1: as a whole, right, because there's toun Like I said, yes, yes, 484 00:29:45,756 --> 00:29:53,316 Speaker 1: plenty of confident charismatic women, but unconscious bias research would 485 00:29:53,356 --> 00:30:00,236 Speaker 1: tell us that we easily put a frame around a 486 00:30:00,316 --> 00:30:08,516 Speaker 1: confident charismatic woman that she's pushy, too strong, because she's 487 00:30:08,556 --> 00:30:12,596 Speaker 1: going again the stereotypes whispering in the back of our brain, 488 00:30:12,676 --> 00:30:16,316 Speaker 1: that we expect women to be a little less forthright 489 00:30:16,396 --> 00:30:21,556 Speaker 1: than that, whereas we have an unconscious bias that we 490 00:30:21,636 --> 00:30:25,356 Speaker 1: expect men to be pretty out there, pretty comfortable in 491 00:30:25,396 --> 00:30:28,596 Speaker 1: their skin, owning the space, and so we don't in 492 00:30:28,636 --> 00:30:32,196 Speaker 1: any way mark a man down for that. So it's 493 00:30:32,236 --> 00:30:35,396 Speaker 1: not I'm not trying to put the proposition that confidence 494 00:30:35,436 --> 00:30:40,436 Speaker 1: and charisma are somehow unequally distributed between the sexes. I 495 00:30:40,476 --> 00:30:43,916 Speaker 1: don't believe that. I think they're differently. Yeah, yeah, that 496 00:30:43,956 --> 00:30:46,596 Speaker 1: makes sense. Yeah, And you know, once again, I'm conscious 497 00:30:46,636 --> 00:30:50,436 Speaker 1: in all of this we end up talking in sort 498 00:30:50,476 --> 00:30:54,276 Speaker 1: of generalities and some stereotyping when we're actually trying to 499 00:30:54,276 --> 00:30:57,036 Speaker 1: get away from stereotyping. So I'm not trying to say 500 00:30:57,236 --> 00:31:01,036 Speaker 1: every human interaction is like that, but the analysis would 501 00:31:01,076 --> 00:31:05,516 Speaker 1: tell us that on average, more of those things come 502 00:31:05,556 --> 00:31:08,396 Speaker 1: into play for women than come into play for men. 503 00:31:08,596 --> 00:31:12,196 Speaker 1: You had that the Labor Party in Australia had an 504 00:31:12,236 --> 00:31:16,476 Speaker 1: affirmative Action policy which sat clearer goals for how many women, 505 00:31:16,636 --> 00:31:19,116 Speaker 1: how many seats are to be held by women. Talk 506 00:31:19,116 --> 00:31:22,916 Speaker 1: a little bit about that approach, that idea. Instead of 507 00:31:23,476 --> 00:31:27,316 Speaker 1: using soft methods of changing things, you go in and 508 00:31:27,356 --> 00:31:32,156 Speaker 1: you sat hard standards that reflect on how well it 509 00:31:32,276 --> 00:31:34,636 Speaker 1: worked for the Labor Party in Australia, And do you 510 00:31:34,676 --> 00:31:37,956 Speaker 1: think that is a strategy that should be used in 511 00:31:38,556 --> 00:31:42,036 Speaker 1: many different domains To give you the Australian story just 512 00:31:42,196 --> 00:31:45,356 Speaker 1: in snapshot, if you go back to the nineteen nineties, 513 00:31:45,356 --> 00:31:49,036 Speaker 1: in our National Parliament, both sides of politics conservative and 514 00:31:49,116 --> 00:31:54,596 Speaker 1: progressive we're around about fourteen percent women and the Labor 515 00:31:54,636 --> 00:31:56,756 Speaker 1: Party looked at that and said we need to change it, 516 00:31:56,796 --> 00:32:00,076 Speaker 1: and so it ultimately went for a structural solution for 517 00:32:00,116 --> 00:32:05,276 Speaker 1: an affirmative action target and different jurisdictions. Even though we're 518 00:32:05,276 --> 00:32:07,836 Speaker 1: sending people to a national parliament, there are still some 519 00:32:07,916 --> 00:32:11,356 Speaker 1: differences between how in the State of Victoria's seat selection 520 00:32:11,396 --> 00:32:14,076 Speaker 1: will be done compared with New South Wales or South Australia. 521 00:32:14,316 --> 00:32:16,956 Speaker 1: So there wasn't just one answer to how to get 522 00:32:16,996 --> 00:32:20,116 Speaker 1: that done. But for example, in the State of Victoria 523 00:32:20,196 --> 00:32:25,036 Speaker 1: where I was, the system was you preselected for the 524 00:32:25,036 --> 00:32:29,156 Speaker 1: whole round, every member for the House of Representatives, every senator, 525 00:32:29,636 --> 00:32:33,036 Speaker 1: and if you hadn't hit the target for winnable seats, 526 00:32:33,156 --> 00:32:35,636 Speaker 1: so you couldn't cluster the women in the unwinnable seats. 527 00:32:35,876 --> 00:32:38,476 Speaker 1: If you hadn't hit the target for winnable seats, then 528 00:32:38,516 --> 00:32:41,716 Speaker 1: you'd have to have the whole preselection round again. Now 529 00:32:41,956 --> 00:32:46,916 Speaker 1: in politics, this is an unimaginably bad sanction. Every vote, 530 00:32:46,956 --> 00:32:50,516 Speaker 1: every double cross is on the table because you've already 531 00:32:50,516 --> 00:32:52,316 Speaker 1: done the round once and now you're going to do 532 00:32:52,356 --> 00:32:57,436 Speaker 1: it again. So people delivered to the target and it 533 00:32:57,516 --> 00:33:00,436 Speaker 1: worked and so labor has been as high as forty 534 00:33:00,476 --> 00:33:03,636 Speaker 1: eight percent women. On the other side of politics, they 535 00:33:03,636 --> 00:33:07,436 Speaker 1: went for a less structural approach or a zero structural approach, 536 00:33:07,756 --> 00:33:10,156 Speaker 1: and they said they'd have training and mentoring and all 537 00:33:10,156 --> 00:33:14,076 Speaker 1: the sort of softer stuff, and they have incrementally inched 538 00:33:14,156 --> 00:33:17,316 Speaker 1: their way forward to about twenty two twenty three percent 539 00:33:17,396 --> 00:33:21,116 Speaker 1: women in that zone. Now, I think when we come 540 00:33:21,196 --> 00:33:24,636 Speaker 1: back from that Australian experience and say, what's that telling us, 541 00:33:25,236 --> 00:33:29,356 Speaker 1: it's really telling us something about the big debate, and 542 00:33:29,436 --> 00:33:32,276 Speaker 1: the big debate that sort of rages is do we 543 00:33:32,316 --> 00:33:34,756 Speaker 1: need to fix the structures or do we need to 544 00:33:34,796 --> 00:33:37,196 Speaker 1: fix the women. Do we need to say to the 545 00:33:37,236 --> 00:33:41,156 Speaker 1: women be more confident, lean in, you know, exhibit these 546 00:33:41,276 --> 00:33:43,876 Speaker 1: kinds of behaviors and you'll get through. Or do we 547 00:33:43,916 --> 00:33:47,196 Speaker 1: need to fix the structures. And once again, like all 548 00:33:47,436 --> 00:33:49,876 Speaker 1: debates that rage back and forth, there's a bit of 549 00:33:49,916 --> 00:33:54,076 Speaker 1: truth on both sides. But I'm a real believer we 550 00:33:54,156 --> 00:33:58,596 Speaker 1: need to fix the structures. And I think the Australian 551 00:33:58,636 --> 00:34:04,276 Speaker 1: example helps prove that that it's not just about more 552 00:34:05,196 --> 00:34:08,996 Speaker 1: training and you know, sort of mentoring and things like 553 00:34:09,196 --> 00:34:11,356 Speaker 1: that for women. It's about a more profound set of 554 00:34:11,396 --> 00:34:13,836 Speaker 1: issues than that. Do you think of those kinds of 555 00:34:14,396 --> 00:34:18,516 Speaker 1: quotas as permanent or are they're temporary until you get 556 00:34:18,516 --> 00:34:22,516 Speaker 1: women and men into rough alignment. I think they're temporary 557 00:34:22,596 --> 00:34:26,676 Speaker 1: and once you get to a world and it doesn't 558 00:34:26,676 --> 00:34:29,316 Speaker 1: mean that you'd have to go through the mechanical process 559 00:34:29,436 --> 00:34:33,116 Speaker 1: of getting rid of the rule. I mean we're almost 560 00:34:33,156 --> 00:34:38,676 Speaker 1: at that point in Australian politics, Australian Labor politics, where 561 00:34:39,156 --> 00:34:42,636 Speaker 1: the rule is no longer uppermost in people's mind. Oh heavens, 562 00:34:42,676 --> 00:34:43,756 Speaker 1: are we going to meet the rule? That we're going 563 00:34:43,756 --> 00:34:46,756 Speaker 1: to meet the rule? Because now we've just got to 564 00:34:46,756 --> 00:34:49,196 Speaker 1: a stage where as it comes out, is going to 565 00:34:49,236 --> 00:34:53,156 Speaker 1: meet the rule. So there's less of a drive coming 566 00:34:53,276 --> 00:34:57,636 Speaker 1: from the statute that we adopted as a political party, 567 00:34:57,716 --> 00:35:00,516 Speaker 1: and it's more just the norm. So it'll fall away 568 00:35:00,596 --> 00:35:03,236 Speaker 1: in impact once you get to a critical mass of women. 569 00:35:03,356 --> 00:35:05,716 Speaker 1: Did you notice down steam of facts from that rule? 570 00:35:06,236 --> 00:35:11,636 Speaker 1: Did you wither more women entering into politics as a result, Well, 571 00:35:11,676 --> 00:35:16,876 Speaker 1: certainly there were more women selected for parliament. I think 572 00:35:16,956 --> 00:35:20,516 Speaker 1: more women who came into the Labor Party could imagine 573 00:35:20,516 --> 00:35:24,316 Speaker 1: themselves in parliament, and because of our Westminster system, because 574 00:35:24,316 --> 00:35:26,116 Speaker 1: he had more women on the back bench, it was 575 00:35:26,156 --> 00:35:28,596 Speaker 1: more likely they'd come through into the ministry, and so 576 00:35:28,636 --> 00:35:31,716 Speaker 1: we had ministries that could have more women at the 577 00:35:31,796 --> 00:35:36,116 Speaker 1: front of them. So yes, it flowed through everywhere. The 578 00:35:36,316 --> 00:35:40,156 Speaker 1: argument that was used in Australia on the conservative side 579 00:35:40,156 --> 00:35:42,996 Speaker 1: of politics was all know, that means that you're not 580 00:35:43,076 --> 00:35:46,396 Speaker 1: selecting people on the basis of merit. But once again, 581 00:35:46,436 --> 00:35:49,316 Speaker 1: that takes us back to the point about what's merit 582 00:35:49,796 --> 00:35:53,716 Speaker 1: and if you believe that it's equally distributed between the sexes, 583 00:35:53,756 --> 00:35:57,836 Speaker 1: and you're seeing a result that's seventy percent or more men, 584 00:35:58,276 --> 00:36:00,316 Speaker 1: and that's telling you that there are women of merit 585 00:36:00,356 --> 00:36:03,076 Speaker 1: who didn't get to come through. Was there a backlash 586 00:36:02,916 --> 00:36:06,636 Speaker 1: within talking about within the labor universe? Was your backlash 587 00:36:06,636 --> 00:36:09,516 Speaker 1: and what was the nature of the backlash? How long 588 00:36:09,596 --> 00:36:11,636 Speaker 1: did last and what were the what were the kind 589 00:36:11,636 --> 00:36:14,476 Speaker 1: of argument Presumably that argument was used. Oh yes, that 590 00:36:14,596 --> 00:36:18,876 Speaker 1: argument was definitely used there. This was a fierce debate. 591 00:36:19,356 --> 00:36:22,396 Speaker 1: This wasn't I feel like I may have told the 592 00:36:22,556 --> 00:36:25,316 Speaker 1: history in a more benign way than it was lived. 593 00:36:25,916 --> 00:36:28,596 Speaker 1: This was a fierce debate within the Labor Party as 594 00:36:28,596 --> 00:36:31,076 Speaker 1: to whether this rule was going to be adopted, and 595 00:36:31,236 --> 00:36:35,836 Speaker 1: it was finally adopted at a national conference, and right 596 00:36:36,076 --> 00:36:40,436 Speaker 1: up until the moment of adoption there was fierce resistance 597 00:36:40,516 --> 00:36:43,916 Speaker 1: to it. Fortunately the then Prime Minister Labor Prime Minister 598 00:36:43,956 --> 00:36:48,116 Speaker 1: Paul Keating was a supporter of it, so that profoundly helped. 599 00:36:48,876 --> 00:36:51,596 Speaker 1: But I remember one of the women who had been 600 00:36:51,716 --> 00:36:55,956 Speaker 1: right at the front of this campaign telling us afterwards 601 00:36:56,076 --> 00:36:59,996 Speaker 1: that a very senior may or politician rushed over to 602 00:37:00,036 --> 00:37:03,116 Speaker 1: her after the rule was adopted and said, quote unquote, 603 00:37:03,276 --> 00:37:06,556 Speaker 1: you bitch, as you've won, to which she said, I 604 00:37:06,636 --> 00:37:10,876 Speaker 1: want that on my gravestone, you know. Would you recommend 605 00:37:10,956 --> 00:37:16,836 Speaker 1: that for any country. I'm always conscious that in our 606 00:37:17,036 --> 00:37:20,236 Speaker 1: complex world, you can never just pick something up and 607 00:37:20,596 --> 00:37:23,796 Speaker 1: smash it down into someone else's system and say job done. 608 00:37:24,356 --> 00:37:27,756 Speaker 1: And we've seen too much of that done around the world. 609 00:37:28,236 --> 00:37:33,636 Speaker 1: But I would certainly advocate that every political party thinks 610 00:37:33,716 --> 00:37:38,236 Speaker 1: through whether a mechanism, a target, a quota would work 611 00:37:38,276 --> 00:37:40,236 Speaker 1: for them, you know, and you'd have to adapt it 612 00:37:40,276 --> 00:37:46,156 Speaker 1: to systems. But I think unless you've squarely looked that 613 00:37:46,316 --> 00:37:49,436 Speaker 1: debate in the phase, you're probably not going to get 614 00:37:49,476 --> 00:37:51,756 Speaker 1: to the profound change we need to see. You have 615 00:37:51,796 --> 00:37:55,396 Speaker 1: a good natural experiment in Australia if you have one 616 00:37:55,436 --> 00:37:57,516 Speaker 1: party that has them and one party that doesn't. You 617 00:37:57,516 --> 00:38:00,996 Speaker 1: can track and see how the two rates of female 618 00:38:01,036 --> 00:38:07,396 Speaker 1: participation differ over time. Yet little study and to talk 619 00:38:07,436 --> 00:38:12,636 Speaker 1: about let's talk on other instito no things around things 620 00:38:12,636 --> 00:38:15,596 Speaker 1: that family leave and what will be next on your 621 00:38:15,676 --> 00:38:18,716 Speaker 1: list if you so, let's talk about the institutional agenda 622 00:38:18,756 --> 00:38:23,636 Speaker 1: of female leadership quality. What's next on the list after? Well, 623 00:38:23,636 --> 00:38:27,356 Speaker 1: I think quotas can play a role, but you know, 624 00:38:27,876 --> 00:38:29,876 Speaker 1: many of the other things we've talked about in terms 625 00:38:29,916 --> 00:38:32,716 Speaker 1: of how merits viewed and who gets promoted, those things 626 00:38:32,796 --> 00:38:34,996 Speaker 1: need to be looked at. Then on the sort of 627 00:38:35,036 --> 00:38:38,636 Speaker 1: work family life. Once again, we don't know everything we 628 00:38:38,716 --> 00:38:42,076 Speaker 1: need to know. And you know, the toolbox that we 629 00:38:42,156 --> 00:38:45,516 Speaker 1: have for change in big businesses, in political parties is 630 00:38:45,516 --> 00:38:49,916 Speaker 1: a pretty thin toolbox. And I was absolutely persuaded of 631 00:38:50,116 --> 00:38:53,196 Speaker 1: how thin the toolbox was when I studied it after 632 00:38:53,476 --> 00:38:56,036 Speaker 1: being in politics and wanting to write my book and 633 00:38:56,076 --> 00:38:59,796 Speaker 1: write thoughtfully about gender. So there's lots of us, you know, 634 00:38:59,916 --> 00:39:02,396 Speaker 1: lots of work for us at the Global Institute for 635 00:39:02,396 --> 00:39:04,756 Speaker 1: Women's Leadership and others around the world to do to 636 00:39:05,236 --> 00:39:08,956 Speaker 1: multiply the number of tools in the toolbox. But all 637 00:39:09,276 --> 00:39:13,196 Speaker 1: the things we know work now, an important one is 638 00:39:13,796 --> 00:39:19,556 Speaker 1: work life flexibilities, but making sure that they are used 639 00:39:19,796 --> 00:39:24,516 Speaker 1: by both men and women. So there's very clear evidence 640 00:39:24,556 --> 00:39:27,836 Speaker 1: that if you've got flexible work policies and it's only 641 00:39:27,876 --> 00:39:31,916 Speaker 1: ever used by women, then that's the mummy track, and 642 00:39:32,156 --> 00:39:35,356 Speaker 1: that's the second track, and it's the track that's hard 643 00:39:35,396 --> 00:39:39,436 Speaker 1: to get promoted out of. Whereas if those flexibilities are 644 00:39:39,596 --> 00:39:43,556 Speaker 1: used by both men and women, then it is no 645 00:39:43,676 --> 00:39:48,836 Speaker 1: longer a neck detriment towards promotion. So actually, you know 646 00:39:49,076 --> 00:39:52,996 Speaker 1: men stepping up and saying I'm going to take leave 647 00:39:53,116 --> 00:39:56,476 Speaker 1: at the time of the birth of my child. I'm 648 00:39:56,516 --> 00:40:00,916 Speaker 1: going to not work in the office on Thursday or 649 00:40:00,916 --> 00:40:03,156 Speaker 1: whatever it is because I'm going to stay at home 650 00:40:03,196 --> 00:40:08,436 Speaker 1: and look after our baby. All of those things. If 651 00:40:08,436 --> 00:40:11,076 Speaker 1: those flexib abilities are used by men, then there will 652 00:40:11,116 --> 00:40:14,436 Speaker 1: be less punishment involved in using them. How do you 653 00:40:14,516 --> 00:40:17,436 Speaker 1: get men to use them as much as women? Well, 654 00:40:18,076 --> 00:40:21,676 Speaker 1: it's one of those Once it gets started, I think 655 00:40:21,716 --> 00:40:26,196 Speaker 1: it will spread, But initially I think you need men 656 00:40:26,356 --> 00:40:29,716 Speaker 1: at a leadership level to do it, to give permission 657 00:40:29,756 --> 00:40:32,916 Speaker 1: to other men. I mean, I can understand why a 658 00:40:32,996 --> 00:40:36,756 Speaker 1: man would think I've never been in a workplace where 659 00:40:36,756 --> 00:40:39,436 Speaker 1: anybody else has done this. If I'm the first one 660 00:40:39,476 --> 00:40:41,276 Speaker 1: to do it, is everybody going to be looking at 661 00:40:41,276 --> 00:40:43,996 Speaker 1: me going wow, that's kind of No one's going to 662 00:40:44,036 --> 00:40:45,676 Speaker 1: say it to my face, but are they going to 663 00:40:45,716 --> 00:40:48,356 Speaker 1: be thinking wow, that's kind of interesting. You know, how 664 00:40:48,396 --> 00:40:50,516 Speaker 1: invested is he in his job if he's looking for 665 00:40:50,556 --> 00:40:53,476 Speaker 1: all these flexibilities? You know, can I afford that risk? 666 00:40:53,556 --> 00:40:56,436 Speaker 1: Because I want to be promoted to well in my career, 667 00:40:57,036 --> 00:41:00,516 Speaker 1: So role modeling from the top that yep, it's okay 668 00:41:00,636 --> 00:41:03,716 Speaker 1: and your career will be fine, I think is really important. 669 00:41:03,796 --> 00:41:05,316 Speaker 1: I want to go back to something you said at 670 00:41:05,316 --> 00:41:06,916 Speaker 1: the very beginning. I think this is a good place 671 00:41:06,956 --> 00:41:11,236 Speaker 1: to wrap up, and that is I was curious about 672 00:41:11,276 --> 00:41:18,036 Speaker 1: this connection between educational opportunity and leadership rules, because it 673 00:41:18,076 --> 00:41:20,436 Speaker 1: does strike me that if you looked at least at 674 00:41:20,516 --> 00:41:26,676 Speaker 1: industrialized countries in the educational battle is more than being one. 675 00:41:26,796 --> 00:41:32,876 Speaker 1: It's it's women are now performing men educationally and at 676 00:41:32,916 --> 00:41:36,356 Speaker 1: many levels. So does that once again, is this one 677 00:41:36,356 --> 00:41:39,956 Speaker 1: problem or is it two? And or do you think 678 00:41:39,996 --> 00:41:42,596 Speaker 1: we're just going to see that that's the fact that 679 00:41:42,596 --> 00:41:45,516 Speaker 1: we've now seemed to be winning the educational battle in 680 00:41:45,556 --> 00:41:48,756 Speaker 1: the industrialized world mean that the leadership battle is an 681 00:41:48,756 --> 00:41:54,756 Speaker 1: inevitable electric down the line. I think education is necessary, 682 00:41:54,876 --> 00:41:58,436 Speaker 1: but not sufficient condition to fix the rest of gender equality. 683 00:41:58,876 --> 00:42:01,996 Speaker 1: If it was sufficient, then you and I would live 684 00:42:02,036 --> 00:42:05,956 Speaker 1: in gender equal societies because in our societies more women 685 00:42:06,516 --> 00:42:11,356 Speaker 1: get in the US context college education my context, university 686 00:42:11,396 --> 00:42:14,756 Speaker 1: degrees than men, So we would have won. So we 687 00:42:14,836 --> 00:42:20,316 Speaker 1: know that it's not the silver bullet. But unless we've 688 00:42:20,316 --> 00:42:24,556 Speaker 1: got equal chances in education, then I think the rest 689 00:42:24,676 --> 00:42:27,636 Speaker 1: becomes a bit of a pipe dream. So when I 690 00:42:27,676 --> 00:42:30,676 Speaker 1: look at statistics from around the world, and obviously my 691 00:42:30,756 --> 00:42:33,596 Speaker 1: focus through the Global Partnership for education is not in 692 00:42:33,636 --> 00:42:37,916 Speaker 1: the developing world, and you see statistics like only one 693 00:42:38,076 --> 00:42:43,196 Speaker 1: in ten girls finishes secondary school, that is not a 694 00:42:43,276 --> 00:42:46,996 Speaker 1: society where we can see gender equality coming onto the 695 00:42:47,116 --> 00:42:50,596 Speaker 1: landscape anytime soon. So we do have to invest in 696 00:42:50,636 --> 00:42:54,276 Speaker 1: that education challenge. Make sure girls get a great education. 697 00:42:55,116 --> 00:42:57,836 Speaker 1: It ultimately matters for their prospects for leadership, but it 698 00:42:57,876 --> 00:43:01,276 Speaker 1: matters for so much more. The evidence is clear that 699 00:43:01,356 --> 00:43:05,636 Speaker 1: a educated girl will tend to marry later, she'll have 700 00:43:05,756 --> 00:43:08,796 Speaker 1: fewer children, she'll be able to earn income for a family, 701 00:43:09,236 --> 00:43:11,916 Speaker 1: be less likely to get HIV AIDS should be more 702 00:43:11,956 --> 00:43:14,596 Speaker 1: likely to send her kids to school, and so it 703 00:43:14,676 --> 00:43:18,276 Speaker 1: goes and you get on an upward cycle of development 704 00:43:18,316 --> 00:43:22,796 Speaker 1: and empowerment. So we do need to make sure that 705 00:43:22,796 --> 00:43:26,796 Speaker 1: that is happening, and that requires a huge global efforts 706 00:43:26,956 --> 00:43:30,516 Speaker 1: because there's so much to do. But even as we 707 00:43:30,596 --> 00:43:34,236 Speaker 1: do that, we've got to be solving this leadership challenge. 708 00:43:34,756 --> 00:43:38,476 Speaker 1: And one of the things about getting to work in 709 00:43:38,556 --> 00:43:42,236 Speaker 1: both spaces is I do get to talk to women 710 00:43:42,276 --> 00:43:46,316 Speaker 1: from right around the world, including women from many developing countries, 711 00:43:46,316 --> 00:43:49,356 Speaker 1: from many parts of Africa, and people would look at 712 00:43:49,356 --> 00:43:52,836 Speaker 1: the leadership challenge and say, wow, you know that's so 713 00:43:53,036 --> 00:43:57,556 Speaker 1: culturally specific. It'll be incredibly different in Australia than it 714 00:43:57,676 --> 00:44:01,556 Speaker 1: is in Nigeria or something like that. And that's partly true, 715 00:44:01,716 --> 00:44:04,356 Speaker 1: but not one hundred percent true, because when you talk 716 00:44:04,356 --> 00:44:09,556 Speaker 1: to women in Nigeria or other parts of Africa, many 717 00:44:09,636 --> 00:44:12,636 Speaker 1: of the things that'll rise that are holding women back 718 00:44:12,836 --> 00:44:19,076 Speaker 1: are things we've talked about in this conversation. So Wow, Iceland, Rwanda, 719 00:44:19,276 --> 00:44:21,476 Speaker 1: or in New Zealand, that's where you need to be 720 00:44:21,676 --> 00:44:24,796 Speaker 1: for a shot add equality. At least, that's where a 721 00:44:24,916 --> 00:44:27,796 Speaker 1: lady version of a twenty one year old Malcolm Gladwell 722 00:44:27,836 --> 00:44:30,716 Speaker 1: needs to be. It's a relief to hear that somebody 723 00:44:30,716 --> 00:44:34,436 Speaker 1: with Gillard's experience is now figuring out how to level 724 00:44:34,476 --> 00:44:38,876 Speaker 1: the playing field for other women. Ultimately, her advice about 725 00:44:38,956 --> 00:44:43,036 Speaker 1: quotas and fixing the structures versus telling us to lean in, 726 00:44:43,556 --> 00:44:47,076 Speaker 1: That's what I'm taking away, and hopefully that's how one 727 00:44:47,156 --> 00:44:51,956 Speaker 1: day I'm going to be one of those bitches who wins. 728 00:44:51,956 --> 00:44:56,716 Speaker 1: Solvable is a collaboration between Pushkin Industries and the Rockefella Foundation, 729 00:44:56,836 --> 00:45:00,836 Speaker 1: with production by Laura Hyde, Hester Kant, Laura Sheeter, and 730 00:45:00,956 --> 00:45:04,836 Speaker 1: Ruth Barnes from Chalk and Blade. Pushkin's executive producer is 731 00:45:04,916 --> 00:45:09,876 Speaker 1: Neia LaBelle, Research by sher Vincent, Engineering by j Gambrel 732 00:45:09,956 --> 00:45:14,396 Speaker 1: and the great folks at GSI Studios. Original music composed 733 00:45:14,396 --> 00:45:18,556 Speaker 1: by Pascal Wise and special thanks to Maggie Taylor, Heather Fine, 734 00:45:18,756 --> 00:45:23,556 Speaker 1: Julia Barton, Carli mcgliori, Jacob Weisberg, and Malcolm Gladwell. You 735 00:45:23,596 --> 00:45:27,676 Speaker 1: can learn more about solving Today's biggest problems at Rockefeller 736 00:45:27,756 --> 00:45:32,476 Speaker 1: Foundation dot org slash Solvable. I'm Mave Higgins, Now go 737 00:45:32,716 --> 00:45:33,156 Speaker 1: solve it.