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Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to cool people who did cool stuff.

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Speaker 1: I'm your host, Miriam Rocheck and this week we're going rogue.

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Speaker 1: By that, I mean Sophie's out on the call. We're

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Speaker 1: producing no masters, no producers. That's right. We don't need

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Speaker 1: the people who put in a lot of work to

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Speaker 1: make our stuff good. And oh what do we do?

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Speaker 1: I thought you knew? And Ian as our editor. This

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Speaker 1: week we're continuing the saga of last week about black Beard.

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Speaker 1: The non pirate Sholem Schwartz sparts the anarchist poet, clockmaker,

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Speaker 1: community defense organizer, and assassin. Yeah, so I wonder who

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Speaker 1: he's going to kill. I have no idea. When last

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Speaker 1: we left, the man he held responsible for thousands of

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Speaker 1: deaths of Jews massacred in pogroms in Ukraine had just

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Speaker 1: moved to the city. He is living in Paris. I'm

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Speaker 1: bad at foreshadowing, so to dive right back in. As

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Speaker 1: soon as Sholem hears that Petlura is in Paris, he

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Speaker 1: buys a pistol and starts stalking the guy. Now, stalking

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Speaker 1: is is difficult in the twenties, So what he does

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Speaker 1: is he cuts a picture out of an encyclopedia, because

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Speaker 1: it's how are you supposed to know what a war

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Speaker 1: criminal looks like? Um? He he like pastes it onto

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Speaker 1: a piece of card and carries the picture around everywhere

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Speaker 1: just yeah, fully, just like looking around for him, which

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Speaker 1: is obviously a terrible plan, right, Like you're not just

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Speaker 1: gonna run into him. It's it's like the getting locked

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Speaker 1: into a bar plan all over again. Terrible plan, except

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Speaker 1: it totally works. He even hears a group of men

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Speaker 1: speaking Ukrainian on his way home from the library one day,

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Speaker 1: follows them and he's pretty sure he recognized is one

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Speaker 1: of them as Petliura, but he can't be positive, so

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Speaker 1: he stalks him he's the same guy again, follows him

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Speaker 1: around for a while, and he eventually finds a restaurant

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Speaker 1: that he's a regular at. But based on the shitty

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Speaker 1: little picture he's got, he's not sure enough to take

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Speaker 1: action because he's being pretty cautious. He doesn't want to

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Speaker 1: just like shoot an innocent man. Yeah, because he actually

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Speaker 1: has a decent set of ethics. Yeah, exactly. Um. But

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Speaker 1: then a newspaper publishes a picture of Petlura and it's

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Speaker 1: a much better picture and schill him is like oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's that's definitely the guy, you know. So at this point,

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Speaker 1: stalking intensifies. He is he is following this guy, waiting

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Speaker 1: for a chance to kill him, and he gets one.

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Speaker 1: He gets a chance to shoot Petlara, but he doesn't

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Speaker 1: take it because Petliro's wife and child are with him

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Speaker 1: and chill him is like, I mean, I'm an aspiring assassin,

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Speaker 1: not an asshole. Um, So he lets the chance go

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Speaker 1: by um rather than kill the man in front of

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Speaker 1: his family. Okay, okay, now, I no right slan for

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Speaker 1: a for a man opposed to all systems of class.

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Speaker 1: He's a class act. I see we did there now. Finally,

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Speaker 1: on May ninety six, he catches pet Lura leaving the

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Speaker 1: restaurant alone, and again just to make sure, he calls

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Speaker 1: out Mr pet Laura, and he turns to look at him,

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Speaker 1: so he's like, that's the guy. He doesn't answer, though,

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Speaker 1: he just turns away, so Slim calls out, it is you,

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Speaker 1: Mr pet Laura. Defend yourself, you scoundrel. Yeah, objectively a

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Speaker 1: very cool thing to you, A vast scali wag. Sorry

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Speaker 1: it's black because you are you are all in on

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Speaker 1: the This guy is a pirate. Yeah, yeah, yeah, no,

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Speaker 1: because I know very little Yiddish or German, but I

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Speaker 1: know that schwartz bard means black beard. So that's why

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Speaker 1: I'm going so hard. Oh. I thought you were going

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Speaker 1: to say I know very little Yiddish or German, but

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Speaker 1: I do know how to talk like a pirate. And

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Speaker 1: I was like, yeah, valid, you know I can't do

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Speaker 1: any accent when someone's looking at me. That's that's the pirates.

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Speaker 1: Shiver might have asked, oist up my pantaloons, this is

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Speaker 1: why we need Sophie. Sophie would have shoken her head

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Speaker 1: in disbelief, and that would have reminded okay, so okay,

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Speaker 1: gone off the rails, Sophie. We need you so much.

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Speaker 1: I know, all right, So he says it is you,

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Speaker 1: Mr Petlura, defend yourself, you scoundrel. Petlaria turns and raises

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Speaker 1: his cane to to defend himself, but Slim, who has

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Speaker 1: a gun, not a cane and is famously a very

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Speaker 1: good shot, puts five bullets in him and leaves him

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Speaker 1: dying in the gutter. Yeah and thus yep, and then

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Speaker 1: he just waits. He doesn't try to get away, classic

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Speaker 1: shoal him all the self preservation instincts of a nineteen

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Speaker 1: year old of the motorcycle. He empties the remaining bullets

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Speaker 1: from his gun because he doesn't want to endanger any

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Speaker 1: passers by if there's a struggle, and he just waits.

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Speaker 1: Now crowd forms before the police can get there, and

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Speaker 1: they start trying to beat him to death. I'm not

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Speaker 1: sure if he regretted emptying the bullets out of his

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Speaker 1: gun or not. At that point he has a cane. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there's a cane right there. Yeah. If I know one

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Speaker 1: thing about RPGs that being role playing games not rocket

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Speaker 1: propel grinades, is that once you've defeated someone, you get

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Speaker 1: their weapons. Yeah, you just pick up the loot. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: He doesn't do that though. Um, he just waits. And

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Speaker 1: when the when the police arrived, he hands them his gun.

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Speaker 1: And when they asked like did you just shoot that

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Speaker 1: man who's lying bleeding on the ground, he says, I

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Speaker 1: have killed a great murderer. All right. Sulm is taken

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Speaker 1: to jail and pet Lura is taken to the hospital. Wait, wait,

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Speaker 1: can we talk about alternate theories about what happened back there?

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Speaker 1: Go for it? Go for it? So I had heard

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Speaker 1: a version of the story. You weren't sure yet whether

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Speaker 1: or not. When the cop came up and said, did

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Speaker 1: you kill this man? He answered by shooting the body. Um,

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Speaker 1: as far as I can tell, he did not answer

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Speaker 1: by shooting the body because he had he had emptied

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Speaker 1: the bullets out of the gun. But like, that sounds

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Speaker 1: like a thing he would have done if he weren't

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Speaker 1: so concerned about endangering bystanders, Like I think, I think

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Speaker 1: aesthetically that was that was his move, But morally and

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Speaker 1: ethically not, Okay, Okay, So in the film adaptation, he

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Speaker 1: can he can just shoot the body again when asked

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Speaker 1: whether or not he killed the guy. I think so

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Speaker 1: I would be down with that. Yeah, with a little

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Speaker 1: footnote at the bottom, that's like, this is not how

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Speaker 1: it happened. This is not how it happened. Shelan was

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Speaker 1: too ethical to fire an unnecessary shot during while there

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Speaker 1: was a large crowd of people around him. He should

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Speaker 1: have taught community defense classes to the modern left. Okay anyway, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So anyway, Petlura is taken to the hospital and he

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Speaker 1: dies just twenty eight minutes after he was shot. Because

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Speaker 1: Sho m was a good shot. Now, in jail, Slim

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Speaker 1: is shocked to find that the guards are sympathetic to

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Speaker 1: what he's done. Yeah, he hadn't really expected sympathy from anyone,

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Speaker 1: especially not from cops. But the opinion on the streets

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Speaker 1: of Paris is very much fun. That Petlura guy, like

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Speaker 1: nobody seems to like him, and the guards let him

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Speaker 1: know that, yeah, he got the right guy, because he

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Speaker 1: was still super stressed about the idea that like, somehow

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Speaker 1: he had mistaken this person's identity and killed an innocent

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Speaker 1: person because that was him. Yeah, no, that was I

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Speaker 1: think that was his biggest concern at this point. Um.

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Speaker 1: And then they let him know that yep, that guy

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Speaker 1: is extremely dead m hm and is extremely pet Lariat. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: extremely Petlura, extremely dead and sholm rights. I suddenly felt strong,

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Speaker 1: great and powerful, as if I could give a shake

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Speaker 1: and the pillars that supported this false world would tumble down.

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Speaker 1: And people said he's a bad poet. Also, it's literally

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Speaker 1: poetry written in blood. All these other people are just

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Speaker 1: like wrote about roses and roses are great. But sure

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Speaker 1: I like him. I like roses. I like them with bread,

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Speaker 1: you know, Yeah, they go well parwell in the sandwich

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Speaker 1: what if Brendan Roses was actually just a bad sandwich

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Speaker 1: recipe this whole time? Absolutely Now, unfortunately, here is the

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Speaker 1: part where we returned to Shulem's pattern of what I

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Speaker 1: think is this least cool stuff that he did, which

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Speaker 1: is treating his wife like garbage. Now, remember he has

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Speaker 1: not discussed this plan with her, um, so she has

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Speaker 1: caught completely off guard when she hears that her husband

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Speaker 1: has been arrested for murder. She runs down to the

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Speaker 1: station and she clearly fucking war together. Yeah, they were

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Speaker 1: at a revolution together. And he doesn't trust her with

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Speaker 1: this plan. He's I don't even know if it's that

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Speaker 1: he doesn't trust her. I think it's like almost that

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Speaker 1: it doesn't occur to him that, like he should discuss

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Speaker 1: things with her. I don't know. I I dislike this.

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Speaker 1: I dislike this about him intensely. All Right, She runs

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Speaker 1: down to the station. There's a car driving him away.

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Speaker 1: When she arrives, she chases after it. She actually climbs

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Speaker 1: up onto the running board of the moving car um

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Speaker 1: and finally falls to the street, crying as it speeds away. Now,

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Speaker 1: I know that's like heartbreaking. Now Here is Sholem's response

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Speaker 1: to that I sat over, full with pain. As I

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Speaker 1: looked to my wife. Her cry and despair abruptly pulled

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Speaker 1: me down from a great height. I suddenly felt broken.

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Speaker 1: My dream, in which I had stored up till now,

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Speaker 1: was interrupted by a malicious hand, and I suddenly understood

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Speaker 1: the reality. My wife's cry pursued me, DeVault, what have

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Speaker 1: you done? Woe is me? Woe is me? What will

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Speaker 1: become of me? Why have I been punished? The world

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Speaker 1: is drowning in blood? And she thought of herself, Ah, women, no, no, no,

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Speaker 1: one more. No, He's like And then my wife really

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Speaker 1: harshed my buzz after I killed that guy, Like, come on,

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Speaker 1: if you'd told her beforehand, you would have seen her

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Speaker 1: and she would have been like holding up a big

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Speaker 1: foam hand, that says Blackbeard, and you would have felt

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Speaker 1: like a fucking king, but in a good way, which

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Speaker 1: I mean. Yeah, he would have probably led himself directly

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Speaker 1: to the nearest guillotine if he had felt like a king.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, okay, fair enough, all right, Yeah, considering you

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Speaker 1: didn't even talk to her about it before he did it,

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Speaker 1: like getting pistoed her from being freaked out, is fucked,

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Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, um, and I actually have to quote

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Speaker 1: Kelly Johnson's dissertation about this for a minute. This was

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Speaker 1: not to be the last time Schartzbard expressed disappointment in

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Speaker 1: Anna during the affair, her criticism of his act often

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Speaker 1: troubling him deeply. In this, he was alone for not

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Speaker 1: even the Ukrainians and allies like the anti Semitic Acution

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Speaker 1: Francai chose to say anything bad about this charming woman.

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Speaker 1: He's like, he's that fucking comedian is like my wife,

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Speaker 1: Am I right? And everyone's like, now your wife Rule

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Speaker 1: is getting new material. Yeah, he's the only person on

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Speaker 1: the planet with a problem with Anna. Everyone else is like, well,

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Speaker 1: I have some opinions about this assassin, but you know,

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Speaker 1: I think we can all agree. His wife is a

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Speaker 1: nice lady, like even the anti Semites like her. She

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Speaker 1: probably would have done it too, you know, like she's

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Speaker 1: down to like drop everything and go join the fucking revolution. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I think Anna rules, and I'm very mad about um

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Speaker 1: solem being, which is why the new Cool Zone media

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Speaker 1: podcast Wife Guys of History will seek to correct this

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Speaker 1: particular problem. I mean, you know, I'm I'm not down

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Speaker 1: with your worship. I think it's good to be like,

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Speaker 1: you know, this guy is cool. Here are the shitty

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Speaker 1: things he did. Also, totally this isn't the big shitty

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Speaker 1: thing he did. But um, right now, Shulan and Anna

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Speaker 1: are fucking famous. Um, he's on front pages worldwide. Everyone

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Speaker 1: has an opinion about him. Their opinion about him is

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Speaker 1: almost entirely based on how they feel about Jews, how

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Speaker 1: they feel about Ukraine, or how they feel about assassinations.

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Speaker 1: It's contextual. I didn't even catch that, but you're right. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: three tastes that tastes great together. Jews broadly are are

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Speaker 1: very behind this act, regardless of their politics. You know, broadly, Um,

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Speaker 1: you will not find unanimity in this particular group ever,

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Speaker 1: but broadly supportive anti Semites and the right in general

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Speaker 1: unsurprisingly not supportive Ukrainian nationalists. And I have to say,

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Speaker 1: you know, unfortunately, at this at this period of history,

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Speaker 1: this category overlaps significantly with anti Semites are pretty upset

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Speaker 1: about it. The Jewish view, and like people who are

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Speaker 1: supportive of Jews view of the situation is that Sholom

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Speaker 1: is like this tortured failed poet, and he's haunted by

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Speaker 1: the violence of his past and his losses, and these

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Speaker 1: versions of the story often exaggerate the family he lost

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Speaker 1: in pogroms. Um. They usually claim that both his parents

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Speaker 1: had been murdered um when his mother had died when

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Speaker 1: he was like nine, and his father died of natural causes.

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Speaker 1: And they sometimes claim that he lost as many as

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Speaker 1: a hundred relatives, which just sounds wild, Like, who has

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Speaker 1: a hundred relatives? I mean, I'm Catholic, right, everybody, I'm

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Speaker 1: the post World War two Jews, Like, I don't have

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Speaker 1: hundred relatives. Maybe before the war people had a hundred relatives,

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Speaker 1: but yeah, I don't know. It's it's still not true.

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Speaker 1: He lost ten relatives, which is enough. That's like many relatives. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's that's too many. Anyway. I bet his dad was

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Speaker 1: a wife guy. Oh, his dad probably was. His dad,

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Speaker 1: his dad was he was definitely a son guy, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's true. Yeah. You know a lot of them support

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Speaker 1: the assassination Um. But even those who don't see him

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Speaker 1: as this like tragic and sympathetic figure who's just unable

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Speaker 1: to cope with the horrors he's witnessed, and in that

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Speaker 1: those cases, they like largely ignore his politics. Now attacks

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Speaker 1: on him from the right are definitely anti Semitic. Um,

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Speaker 1: here's a sample of anti Stolem journalism, which, by the way,

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Speaker 1: they always like attack his looks, which is funny because like,

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Speaker 1: he's a public figure, but he's not even a woman.

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Speaker 1: So while I go after his looks different times, different times,

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Speaker 1: I'm looking at a picture of him. Oh, he looked fine,

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Speaker 1: He's a nice looking man, cool little mustache. Well, yeah, fine,

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Speaker 1: it's fine. So this is this is the quote. I

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Speaker 1: don't actually remember where I took this from, but if

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Speaker 1: he were in the dress of his homeland, you can

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Speaker 1: easily imagine what he might have been and what his

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Speaker 1: ancestors surely were, one of the savage Jews of the

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Speaker 1: Ukraine and Poland and kaftan and filactories obstinately trying on

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Speaker 1: moonlit nights to spell telltale signs of the coming of

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Speaker 1: the Messiah. We're not a cult, They're a cult. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm I'm a huge fan of the word obstinate here.

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Speaker 1: I love when anti Semitic Christians feel like people are

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Speaker 1: being Jewish at them. Yeah, they keep doing it. Plus,

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Speaker 1: there's a real focus from from the right on the

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Speaker 1: idea that he is a secret Bolshevik agentum. More on

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Speaker 1: that later, and then there's the anarchists. Now one of

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Speaker 1: an margaret as you know, Um, one of the things

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Speaker 1: that tends to happen after an anarchist assassinates someone back

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Speaker 1: in the day is a whole bunch of prominent anarchists

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Speaker 1: are suddenly like, what anarchists, don't assassinate people. This guy

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Speaker 1: isn't a real anarchist, except for Emma Goldman, who's always like, fuck, yeah,

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Speaker 1: shoot him again, yeah, or like, even if it's not

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Speaker 1: what I would have chosen, I respect the right of

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Speaker 1: you to do this action exactly. And so Emma Goldman

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Speaker 1: and her you know, in this it's no different in

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Speaker 1: this case. The anarchists like booth, this guy sucks. Don't

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Speaker 1: assassinate people. That's not cool anarchist, you know. And Emma

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Speaker 1: Goldman and her partner in anarchy, Alexander Berkman, are like,

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Speaker 1: this was an act of vengeance for thousands of people

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Speaker 1: killed in massacres. This man did what he had to do,

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Speaker 1: and we respect it. And um, Emma wrote a whole

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Speaker 1: thing for the anarchist press about what a nice guy

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Speaker 1: Shalman was and what a good friend he was, um,

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Speaker 1: and she really went hard for him at a time

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Speaker 1: when he was being public publicly criticized. She wrote, is

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Speaker 1: a little clockmaker shop on Boulevard minil Montam. She probably

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Speaker 1: knew how to pronounce it. Um. One of the proletarian

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Speaker 1: districts in Paris was always the gathering point for those

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Speaker 1: run out of various countries and especially from Russia. Even

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Speaker 1: though Shulan was not well provided with material goods, a

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Speaker 1: needy comrade would never leave his without a meal and

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Speaker 1: a lighter spirit because Shulan's generosity and overflowing friendship shown

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Speaker 1: out from his being. Yeah, and probably like a little clock. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: thanks for hanging out and my goth clock shop. Here's

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Speaker 1: a little goth clock and it like has like never

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Speaker 1: give up like written in it, you know, and then

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Speaker 1: like you know, your your heart is a muscle the

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Speaker 1: size of a fist. I want an inspirational anarchist clock.

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Speaker 1: I do too, know um. And interestingly she did have

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Speaker 1: a major point of disagreement with him, which was the

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Speaker 1: whole idea of Jewish nationalism. She she didn't like it, ye,

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Speaker 1: which she's also Jewish for anyone who's listening. Yeah, Emma

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Speaker 1: Goldman also a Jewish anarchist, but one who does not

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Speaker 1: subscribe to ideas of like Jewish nationalism. And if anything

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Speaker 1: bothered her about what he did, it was the fact

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Speaker 1: that he acted as a member of the Jewish people

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Speaker 1: rather than just as a part of the human race.

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Speaker 1: And here's the thing that she did, which I think

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Speaker 1: it's really cool and innovative and novel and something that

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Speaker 1: we could look at in talking about him and his actions.

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Speaker 1: She put aside the ideological point that she disagreed with

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Speaker 1: him on, and she just didn't bring it up because

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Speaker 1: while it was important to her, it pretty clearly wasn't

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Speaker 1: the most important thing at issue at that moment, and

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Speaker 1: she just like stood in solidarity with someone who was

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Speaker 1: doing work she agreed with, rather than maintaining divisions over

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Speaker 1: points of ideological difference. Well, Miriam, this this brings up

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Speaker 1: a This is a really good way for us to

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Speaker 1: talk about the primary sponsor of today's episode, which is

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Speaker 1: keeping interpersonal political grievances within the movement private instead of public.

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Speaker 1: I'm amazed that keeping interpersonal disagreements within the movement private

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Speaker 1: instead of public isn't a position to sponsor anything. Because

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Speaker 1: they are not doing well right now. No, No, they

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Speaker 1: really pulled together their last bit of money and used

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Speaker 1: it to buy me Thai food. That was nice of them.

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Speaker 1: They're nice, I know. That's the whole thing. You know.

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Speaker 1: They have personal disagreements with me, but they don't say

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Speaker 1: it publicly, and they still think you should eat. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: practice what they preach. So that is the primary pod.

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Speaker 1: Is there is there anyone else that you would like

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Speaker 1: to be sponsored by? Is like a secondary sponsor? You

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Speaker 1: know when dogs or cats do a big stretch and

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Speaker 1: every and any human in the room is kind of

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Speaker 1: compelled to go, oh, big stretch. Yeah, I would like

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Speaker 1: this podcast to be sponsored by big Stretch. Yes, big Stretch.

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Speaker 1: And though however I phrased the previous thing, those are

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Speaker 1: today's sponsors, as well as all these other fine concepts

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Speaker 1: and ideas. And we are back, and the show has

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Speaker 1: gone rogue. Here we are producer lists, rudder lists, floating

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Speaker 1: in a sea of possibility. It's honestly terrifying. I'm terrified.

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Speaker 1: I know, Sophie come back. It didn't work. Wait, maybe

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Speaker 1: if everyone who listens collapse and says I do believe

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Speaker 1: in Sophie, I do believe in Sophie, um, then Sophie

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Speaker 1: will come back. Probably not in this episode, but probably

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Speaker 1: the next episode. So everyone tweet hashtag I do believe

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Speaker 1: in Sophie. Everyone tweet hashtag I do believe in Sophie

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Speaker 1: and tag Sophie. Who's Twitter handle I don't have off

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Speaker 1: the top of my head. But if you believe in Sophie,

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Speaker 1: you probably already know it. Yeah. And if you don't

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Speaker 1: believe in Sophie, then what are you even doing? Not

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Speaker 1: even like listening to this podcast, But just in general,

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Speaker 1: it's get together absolutely, um. But you know who else

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Speaker 1: got it together where we last left our heroes back

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Speaker 1: to you? Yeah it was it was Emma Goldman. She

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Speaker 1: got it together now. Um. Mostly, though Shelan felt the

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Speaker 1: anarchists didn't really support his action, which you know, honestly

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Speaker 1: a lot of them didn't. Um, they really hedged on

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Speaker 1: the whole assassination thing and on the whole Jewish nationalism thing.

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Speaker 1: Jewish anarchists in general were more sympathetic. And there's a

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Speaker 1: really sweet letter to the editor of the Friar Arbitr

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Speaker 1: the Free Voice of Labor MHM, after Emma Goldman and

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Speaker 1: Alexander Berkman published their support of Sholm, which I cut

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Speaker 1: the letter out of my script. I I had included

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Speaker 1: the whole thing because it's really sweet, but um, we

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Speaker 1: didn't have time for it. But basically, a kid sends

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Speaker 1: in the donation of twelve dollars for Sholem's defense, which

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Speaker 1: was raised by him and his friends, along with an

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Speaker 1: apology for not sending more because they had also sent

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Speaker 1: some of the money they raised to the Workman's Circle

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Speaker 1: for Socco and Benzettie. Oh these kids, Yeah, this kid rules.

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Speaker 1: His name was Vori Rosenfeld. Good job. What do you

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Speaker 1: think kid? It was like lemonade stand petty crime. There's

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Speaker 1: the only way that say. Yeah, he's like my friends

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Speaker 1: and I came up with this money. Maybe they had

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Speaker 1: like a sick like skate benefit. It was probably a

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Speaker 1: six skate benefit. Yeah, it was. Actually the original script

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Speaker 1: of Empire Records was them raising money for Saco and

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Speaker 1: Benzetti uh and Schwartz bard um instead of saving the

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Speaker 1: record store um and instead of Rex Manning Day, instead

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Speaker 1: of Rex Manning Day, it was sharleom Day. But it

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Speaker 1: didn't make it past the producers. I wasn't really aware

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Speaker 1: there was a plot in that movie because, like it was,

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Speaker 1: I used to work somewhere that had a break room

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Speaker 1: that had a VHS copy of that movie, and so

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Speaker 1: I saw it in like bits over like the summer

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Speaker 1: that I worked there, but I never saw the whole movie,

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Speaker 1: and like was vaguely only vaguely where that it had

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Speaker 1: a plot beyond like people are at a record store.

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Speaker 1: They are also vaguely only vaguely aware of the fact

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Speaker 1: that there is a plot. But they do bring it

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Speaker 1: together in the final act into inferring that there was

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Speaker 1: implying that there was a plot the entire time, okay,

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Speaker 1: and defending Saco and Benzetti, Yeah, it was about it

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Speaker 1: wasn't about saving the record store. That was a metaphor

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Speaker 1: for defending Sacoon Benzetti, who probably most of the people

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Speaker 1: listening to have no idea who we're talking about. Future

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Speaker 1: friends of the pod, Saco and Benzetti. Nice. So you know, ultimately,

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Speaker 1: this back and forth in the press about whether Sholm

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Speaker 1: is a cool person who you know, did cool stuff,

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Speaker 1: or a bloodthirsty murder it gets very intense, even in

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Speaker 1: the radical Yiddish pressed, and the conflict ends up being

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Speaker 1: summed up by an observer who, writing about the debate,

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Speaker 1: commented using the Yiddish folks saying, HiT's mere fun friend

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Speaker 1: fun son, nim velich miral and protect me from my

397
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Speaker 1: good friends. I can defend myself against my enemies. Yeah,

398
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Speaker 1: movement podcast, you truly hate to see it. And apologies

399
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Speaker 1: for my Yiddish which is not great. Anybody listening to

400
00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:04,679
Speaker 1: this who speaks better Yidish than me, I'm sorry, sorry

401
00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:10,359
Speaker 1: that forced assimilation made you not raised with this. I

402
00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:13,520
Speaker 1: don't think you have to apologize. Listen, I've been neglecting

403
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Speaker 1: the duo lingo owl and that's on me. So Shilian

404
00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:20,679
Speaker 1: is in jail again. Um, you know he's having mystical

405
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Speaker 1: revelations while he's in there. He has those sometimes, like

406
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Speaker 1: while he was in World War One, an angel came

407
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Speaker 1: and told him to organize community self defense, Like you know,

408
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Speaker 1: this happens to him, which is like, I'm going to

409
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Speaker 1: believe in God if like an angel shows up and

410
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Speaker 1: talks to me every now and then, you know, yeah,

411
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Speaker 1: like I'm not going to be mad he's using I

412
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Speaker 1: don't even know, I don't know. I mean like, there's

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Speaker 1: a level at which the human brain is capable of

414
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Speaker 1: conflating metaphor and mystical experience, and especially if you're like

415
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Speaker 1: I have a festering wound inside me that will not

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Speaker 1: heal and then coughs up blood. Yeah, Like, I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I think that that's something that like diehard atheists, M

418
00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:06,000
Speaker 1: like sometimes forgot is that like people that have these experiences. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so what are you going to tell them? It doesn't

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Speaker 1: mean that they're right. It means that people experience reality

421
00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:16,720
Speaker 1: in different ways and things are complex anyway. Yeah, yeah,

422
00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:19,880
Speaker 1: he's writing. No, no, I mean, I think you're absolutely right. Um,

423
00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:23,280
Speaker 1: he's but he's seems to be doing okay. Sample of

424
00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:26,440
Speaker 1: his his writing about his mystical revelations and stuff. He says,

425
00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:29,560
Speaker 1: I am I am called I declare Sholem. The meaning

426
00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:31,880
Speaker 1: of my name is peace and justice. I was born

427
00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:34,520
Speaker 1: to bring peace and justice to the world, love and fairness.

428
00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:37,000
Speaker 1: I have become an avenger now I am called Annoy

429
00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:40,399
Speaker 1: him the avenger whoa he gets like a later in

430
00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:44,959
Speaker 1: name punk name. I know this is for those countings.

431
00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:47,280
Speaker 1: This is his third name, and uh, I think the

432
00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:50,680
Speaker 1: best one and it is a very good punk name. Yeah.

433
00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:53,720
Speaker 1: Despite his anger with Anna, she is very supportive of

434
00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:56,720
Speaker 1: him while he's in jail, and she writes to him

435
00:25:56,760 --> 00:25:58,879
Speaker 1: telling how jealous all the other ladies are that she

436
00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:01,960
Speaker 1: gets to be married to a cool assassin, and also

437
00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:05,280
Speaker 1: that their dog Serber is quote searching for him everywhere.

438
00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:10,760
Speaker 1: I know, it's sucking sweet. I'm literally holding the paw

439
00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:14,960
Speaker 1: of my sleeping dog while we record this podcast. Anyway,

440
00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:18,840
Speaker 1: now I'm just thinking about Server. They're good. They are good.

441
00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:22,280
Speaker 1: Even the bad ones are good. I know, even the

442
00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:25,160
Speaker 1: bad ones are really good. My dog is a bad dog,

443
00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:27,520
Speaker 1: you know, but he's a good boy. Like that's he's

444
00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:29,480
Speaker 1: not good at being a dog, but he's very good.

445
00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:33,320
Speaker 1: So anyway, while he's in prison, he's visited by a

446
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:37,440
Speaker 1: writer named sholm ash Um, a successful Yiddish writer who

447
00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:41,879
Speaker 1: writes a short Yiddish language biography of Sholim the other Sholim.

448
00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:45,400
Speaker 1: But wait, we have to We're gonna do a sidebar

449
00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:49,800
Speaker 1: on shalom Ash because we have queer Yaddish history. Yea.

450
00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:56,879
Speaker 1: So in nine six Sholim Ash had written a play

451
00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:01,119
Speaker 1: called God of Vengeance m, which tells the story of

452
00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:03,440
Speaker 1: a Jewish man who is amassed wealth as a pimp

453
00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:07,280
Speaker 1: and brothel keeper and is obsessed with the idea that

454
00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:09,920
Speaker 1: he can use his money to redeem the sinful way

455
00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:12,440
Speaker 1: that he obtained it by commissioning the writing of a

456
00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:15,399
Speaker 1: torus scroll Um tauris skirls are written by hand, so

457
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:18,679
Speaker 1: it's a it's a huge undertaking um And by keeping

458
00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:22,200
Speaker 1: his seventeen year old daughter riff Kla pure and chaste

459
00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:25,640
Speaker 1: and getting her married off to a religious scholar. He's

460
00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:28,840
Speaker 1: obsessed with keeping the brothel and his family life separate,

461
00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:31,560
Speaker 1: and he uses the language of kosher and tray for

462
00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:38,400
Speaker 1: clean and unclean to describe this. Now, unbeknownst to him, Riffkla,

463
00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:40,720
Speaker 1: his daughter, is in love with Manka, a young sex

464
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:43,560
Speaker 1: worker in the brothel, and the two run away together

465
00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:47,920
Speaker 1: and there is an astoundingly tender love scene between the

466
00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:50,680
Speaker 1: two of them where they come inside after having danced

467
00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:54,080
Speaker 1: and bathed together in the first spring rain, and Manka

468
00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:56,920
Speaker 1: leads Riffkilla through a role play of riff Killa's wedding

469
00:27:57,040 --> 00:28:01,800
Speaker 1: night with Manka as her bridegroom, and in the short scene,

470
00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:05,480
Speaker 1: Manka asks riff Kla, do you want to like five

471
00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:07,920
Speaker 1: or six times, which is a question that no other

472
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:10,920
Speaker 1: character ever asks her. You have fucking verbal consent in

473
00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:19,040
Speaker 1: this queer representation radical Jewish play from Yes, Um Yeah,

474
00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:23,000
Speaker 1: it's incredibly sweet and they embrace and kiss on stage,

475
00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:27,840
Speaker 1: and it is unambiguously romantic and sexual. But it's also

476
00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:30,760
Speaker 1: not depicted as unclean or sinful. Um. And it's not

477
00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:34,919
Speaker 1: condemned by the narrative, though obviously it is by her father. Yeah. Anyway,

478
00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:38,200
Speaker 1: the play is mostly about religious hypocrisy. It's very very good.

479
00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:40,840
Speaker 1: I've seen it performed in Yiddish once, I read it

480
00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:43,560
Speaker 1: in English several times. You should check it out. Um.

481
00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:45,520
Speaker 1: And there's also there's a play about the production of

482
00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:47,960
Speaker 1: God of Vengeance which is called Indecent, which is which

483
00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:50,120
Speaker 1: is also good, although I have have some issues with it.

484
00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:52,240
Speaker 1: But what about the play. That's about the play. That's

485
00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:57,560
Speaker 1: about the play. I'm still working on it. Um. So

486
00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:00,600
Speaker 1: God of Vengeance was performed all over Europe in Yiddish

487
00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:04,080
Speaker 1: as well as other European languages and in En. It

488
00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:07,920
Speaker 1: was translated into English and performed in Greenwich Village in

489
00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:13,800
Speaker 1: New York City. In two three, it was performed very

490
00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:20,680
Speaker 1: briefly on Broadway and then everyone got arrested. What. Yeah,

491
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:25,640
Speaker 1: the whole cast, the producer, and the charge was obscenity

492
00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:30,120
Speaker 1: because it was gay. Because it was gay, the well,

493
00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:34,240
Speaker 1: because it was gay and because it was depicting, um,

494
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:38,360
Speaker 1: sex work. Um, I have the They were charged with

495
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:43,240
Speaker 1: unlawfully advertising, giving, presenting, and participating in an obscene, indecent, immoral,

496
00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:48,640
Speaker 1: and impure drama or play. But actually, here's something fucked up.

497
00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:55,880
Speaker 1: The anti got a vengeance movement was led by assimilationist

498
00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:58,600
Speaker 1: Jews who didn't want Americans to associate Jews with sex work.

499
00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:07,080
Speaker 1: So fuck them, fuck respectability politics. Um, but anyway, that's

500
00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:09,520
Speaker 1: the story of the first lesbian kiss on Broadway. That

501
00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:11,920
Speaker 1: was the first. Okay, so the first lesbian kiss on

502
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:19,640
Speaker 1: Broadway was by radical leftist gay, pro sex work Jews,

503
00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:25,120
Speaker 1: who later wrote the Autobiography of an Anarchist Assassin. The

504
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:29,160
Speaker 1: biography not autobiography. Yeah. I don't actually think Shelan Ash

505
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:31,520
Speaker 1: was gay. Um. I mean he might have been, I don't.

506
00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:34,120
Speaker 1: I don't know about him, but but the but the

507
00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:38,560
Speaker 1: play was gay. Yeah, and like it really I don't know.

508
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:40,920
Speaker 1: I think it's I think the way it depicts the

509
00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:44,400
Speaker 1: relationship is like really nice. Yeah, like you said, verbal consent,

510
00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:48,480
Speaker 1: explicit verbal consent what And it's just like sweet. It's

511
00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:50,920
Speaker 1: like depicted as very sweet and tender, which like nothing

512
00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:53,280
Speaker 1: else in the play really is you know what a

513
00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:58,000
Speaker 1: metal name for a play too god a vengeance? Yeah

514
00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:02,760
Speaker 1: that's pretty good anyway, Yeah it rules, um check it out.

515
00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:07,960
Speaker 1: The script is available online in translation. Um anyway. Yeah,

516
00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:11,920
Speaker 1: solemn Ash comes to write about Sholem, Schwartz, Bard and

517
00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:15,200
Speaker 1: Um in addition to a first name, the two slim's

518
00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:19,000
Speaker 1: share having been utterly fucking traumatized by seeing the aftermath

519
00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:22,560
Speaker 1: of pogroms in Europe, and Ash paints an incredibly sympathetic

520
00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:25,880
Speaker 1: portrait of Sholem. He calls the assassination the redemption of

521
00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:32,200
Speaker 1: all of us coward as a political or the anarchists

522
00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:35,400
Speaker 1: who are whatever anyway, who were like I don't know

523
00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:38,880
Speaker 1: about this assassination, do we? So? Like, actually, I think

524
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:40,959
Speaker 1: this is a good point to talk about that. Like,

525
00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:45,680
Speaker 1: it is fair to say that assassinations, the political assassinations,

526
00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:51,360
Speaker 1: often do not have their intended effect. Right, But this

527
00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:56,720
Speaker 1: wasn't a political assassination, right, pet Lura was not in power. Yeah,

528
00:31:57,160 --> 00:32:02,800
Speaker 1: this was taking revenge against somebody who was never going

529
00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:07,640
Speaker 1: to face justice, right. Um. There was no structure in

530
00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:10,520
Speaker 1: place that was going to hold him accountable. And shul

531
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:12,680
Speaker 1: him knows this, and he's like, this guy can't get

532
00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:16,959
Speaker 1: away with that, Like you can't just like let this stand.

533
00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:22,200
Speaker 1: So it's different, you know, it's it's not not so Yeah,

534
00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:24,920
Speaker 1: I don't know. I think that's kind of what the

535
00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:28,440
Speaker 1: anarchists are. The anarchists who oppose him are sort of

536
00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:33,400
Speaker 1: missing in there, like discussion of like, yeah, but we

537
00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:36,880
Speaker 1: don't do assassination. It's like, first of all, yeah, you

538
00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:41,400
Speaker 1: do when you do ye like for better or worse, right,

539
00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:44,120
Speaker 1: like often worse like most of the time, worse most

540
00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:46,680
Speaker 1: of the I don't want to say most of but

541
00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:49,800
Speaker 1: like some real bad ship has happened as a result.

542
00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:52,920
Speaker 1: You kill him, you kill McKinley, and then you get

543
00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:56,560
Speaker 1: Teddy Roosevelt, right, and that's bad. And you also get

544
00:32:56,600 --> 00:32:59,880
Speaker 1: like authoritarian socialism becoming the dominant form of socialism in

545
00:32:59,920 --> 00:33:03,120
Speaker 1: the United States, and you try and kill Henry clay Frick,

546
00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:05,760
Speaker 1: and you get the working class moving away from direct

547
00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:14,840
Speaker 1: action exactly. But sometimes there's just this guy and he

548
00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:18,680
Speaker 1: did some stuff and you know nobody is going to

549
00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:23,520
Speaker 1: do anything about it. Yeah, huh, it's interesting, Okay, So

550
00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:29,920
Speaker 1: how well please continue? Yeah. So, you know, apart from

551
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:32,800
Speaker 1: from lack of support he's getting from some people who

552
00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:34,960
Speaker 1: he thinks should support him and and apart from the

553
00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:39,080
Speaker 1: fact that killing pet Lura did not stop programs, which

554
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:41,480
Speaker 1: and it gets like a nice little dig in at

555
00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:43,600
Speaker 1: him at one point when he's like, oh, I can't

556
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:45,840
Speaker 1: believe that there are still put Grom's happening after I

557
00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:48,440
Speaker 1: killed pet Lura, She's like, what the fund did you

558
00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:51,280
Speaker 1: think was going to happen? She doesn't say, um, she

559
00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:53,520
Speaker 1: she says like what I think. She says, one swallow

560
00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:57,360
Speaker 1: doesn't make a summer, like you can't. That's not how

561
00:33:57,400 --> 00:34:01,960
Speaker 1: it works, buddy. Which that's saying always confused me because

562
00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:05,760
Speaker 1: I always thought it meant a drink of water. But

563
00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:09,120
Speaker 1: I believe it means a bird. I think it means

564
00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:11,800
Speaker 1: a bird. The summer doesn't come just because the first

565
00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:14,960
Speaker 1: bird of spring is there. Yes, I think that's what

566
00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:18,279
Speaker 1: it means. I think it means that killing one guy

567
00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:20,960
Speaker 1: who is responsible for programs does not instantly stop all

568
00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:24,400
Speaker 1: programs from happening. I think that's what that's saying means classics.

569
00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:27,920
Speaker 1: But anyway, apart from all that, Stilian's having a very

570
00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:30,840
Speaker 1: chill time in prison. He's reading a lot to improve

571
00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:34,000
Speaker 1: his French for the trial. Um and he is allowed

572
00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:36,640
Speaker 1: to order his meals from a local restaurant because he

573
00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:39,520
Speaker 1: hasn't been convicted and apparently like the concept of innocent

574
00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:42,160
Speaker 1: until proven guilty like comes with a few perks in

575
00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:46,400
Speaker 1: French prison in the nineteen twenties. Okay, but before we

576
00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:49,759
Speaker 1: talk about the trial we do, I want to take

577
00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:52,040
Speaker 1: a sidebar to talk about a similar case that had

578
00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:54,560
Speaker 1: happened a few years earlier. UM. Some people may have

579
00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:58,520
Speaker 1: heard of this one too. Following the Armenian genocide, a

580
00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:03,400
Speaker 1: group of survivors formed something called Operation Nemesis fucking Great

581
00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:06,719
Speaker 1: name UM, named for the Greek goddess of vengeance. The

582
00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:09,960
Speaker 1: goal was to assassinate the leaders responsible for the genocide UM,

583
00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:12,959
Speaker 1: and seven assassinations were actually carried out, and the most

584
00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:15,840
Speaker 1: famous one being the killing of the main orchestrator of

585
00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:20,879
Speaker 1: the genocide, Talat Pasha, by Socoman Tillarian in Berlin. UM.

586
00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:22,680
Speaker 1: And I should say I haven't done even a tiny

587
00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:25,400
Speaker 1: percentage of the research on Socoman as I did on

588
00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:27,719
Speaker 1: Slim UM, so I want to apologize in advance if

589
00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:30,200
Speaker 1: I get anything wrong here. UM and his story and

590
00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:33,960
Speaker 1: trial absolutely bear huge responsibilities to Slim. But since we

591
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:36,160
Speaker 1: don't have time to discussed extensively. I'm going to focus

592
00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:40,600
Speaker 1: on what I see is the important differences. So firstly,

593
00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:43,799
Speaker 1: unlike Sholm, Socoman did not act alone. He was part

594
00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:45,920
Speaker 1: of an organized group and he was given a mission

595
00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:49,520
Speaker 1: by his commanders. And he claims during his trial that

596
00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:51,760
Speaker 1: he acted alone and that this was a crime of passion,

597
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:53,600
Speaker 1: that he wasn't in his right mind due to the

598
00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:56,000
Speaker 1: trauma of the genocide. He claims to have been present

599
00:35:56,120 --> 00:35:57,960
Speaker 1: during the murders of his family, to have seen his

600
00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:00,680
Speaker 1: sister dragged off to be raped and murder, have been

601
00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:04,440
Speaker 1: knocked unconscious and awoke in underneath his brother's corpse. Now,

602
00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:08,480
Speaker 1: none of that was true, Okay, he survived to avenge

603
00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:10,839
Speaker 1: his family and his people because he was somewhere else

604
00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:13,800
Speaker 1: at the time of the massacre. But the defense works

605
00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:16,319
Speaker 1: and the prosecution is too incompetent to figure out that

606
00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:19,600
Speaker 1: he didn't act alone. Right, Five doctors testified that he

607
00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:21,160
Speaker 1: wasn't in control of his actions at the time of

608
00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:25,000
Speaker 1: the murder, which he totally was. He's found innocent, And like,

609
00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:27,480
Speaker 1: I'm not trying to be disrespectful at all of this

610
00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:29,560
Speaker 1: approach as far as I'm concerned. You know, he mounted

611
00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:31,920
Speaker 1: a good defense after doing what he had to do.

612
00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:34,160
Speaker 1: You know, wait, what country was that? Maybe you said

613
00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:37,560
Speaker 1: that was in Germany? Um so in try I wonder

614
00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:40,680
Speaker 1: you know how Germany felt a little later about the

615
00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:44,200
Speaker 1: outcome of that trial. But um they but he's found

616
00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:47,000
Speaker 1: innocent or not not guilty by reason of insanity or

617
00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:49,760
Speaker 1: like whatever. But this this happened just a few years

618
00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:52,160
Speaker 1: before the trial of Sholem Schwartzberd So I think it's

619
00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:57,920
Speaker 1: important context. Now the trial is about to begin, and

620
00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:03,759
Speaker 1: you know what happens sometimes before trial advertisers, Yeah, you know,

621
00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:05,560
Speaker 1: you know, when you're on jury duty and they're like,

622
00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:09,680
Speaker 1: and now we're from our sponsors. It's the prison industrial complex.

623
00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:13,440
Speaker 1: We're not sponsored by the prison industrial complex anymore, though,

624
00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:17,920
Speaker 1: no think did you say anymore? Well, a lot of

625
00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:21,240
Speaker 1: the people in our episodes have a lot of personal

626
00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:25,160
Speaker 1: interactions with the prison industrial complex. Sure, but there are

627
00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:29,399
Speaker 1: actually negative interactions. This podcast is brought to you by

628
00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:34,000
Speaker 1: the concept of not prisons. M Um, we haven't come

629
00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:36,560
Speaker 1: up with a way to describe a movement around the

630
00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:41,560
Speaker 1: abolition of prisons. But but today's episode is brought to

631
00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:49,840
Speaker 1: you by not Prisons. And then this other stuff and

632
00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:52,600
Speaker 1: we are back and we're talking about jury duty and

633
00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:56,360
Speaker 1: the other things that come before jury duty besides advertisers. Yeah.

634
00:37:56,600 --> 00:38:00,279
Speaker 1: So the trial of Schulench Farz part is about to begin.

635
00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:05,000
Speaker 1: The prosecutors are asking for the maximum sentence, which Inies

636
00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:13,600
Speaker 1: France is death by guillotine. Yeah. Now, Slon's got a problem,

637
00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:16,480
Speaker 1: which is that he very much publicly did the crime

638
00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:19,960
Speaker 1: that he was accused of, and has repeatedly admitted it,

639
00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:22,919
Speaker 1: both to the police and the world press. Right, not

640
00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:27,120
Speaker 1: the usual strategy we advocate. Yeah. Now, my my partner

641
00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:30,800
Speaker 1: is a criminal defense attorney, and they actually prefer that

642
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:34,640
Speaker 1: their clients not do that. Huh. But what if they're

643
00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:38,080
Speaker 1: what if they felt morally justified in their actions, then

644
00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:42,680
Speaker 1: it's okay to confess. I think your lawyer would still

645
00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:45,960
Speaker 1: prefer you not do okay, okay, but you know, it's

646
00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:49,760
Speaker 1: it's up to you. I guess ultimately know anyone who's listening.

647
00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:51,520
Speaker 1: Although I'm gonna make a bunch of jokes about this,

648
00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:56,719
Speaker 1: don't do what Sholom don't does. But it's actually all

649
00:38:56,719 --> 00:39:00,239
Speaker 1: okay in this case because his lawyer comes up with

650
00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:03,319
Speaker 1: a defense. The pre figures what I would call the

651
00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:07,440
Speaker 1: Chicago defense. Now we've already touched on the fact, Margaret

652
00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:10,920
Speaker 1: that you need more musical theater in your life. So

653
00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:15,279
Speaker 1: that wasn't we didn't reach consensus about that. Well, if

654
00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:17,879
Speaker 1: you had more musical theater in your if you would understand, Um,

655
00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:20,400
Speaker 1: what I mean when I say that Sholem's lawyer's defense

656
00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:25,440
Speaker 1: was he had it coming. Oh I've seen this play

657
00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:30,680
Speaker 1: all right, there's a good song about he had it coming. Yeah,

658
00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:32,960
Speaker 1: So that's his defense, is he had it coming, he

659
00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:37,480
Speaker 1: had it coming. We had himself to blame. Love it. Um,

660
00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:41,000
Speaker 1: He says, yes, my client killed this guy. We know that,

661
00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:47,239
Speaker 1: but get this fuck that guy. Yeah, that guy needed killing.

662
00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:50,560
Speaker 1: My client was right to do it. And you remember,

663
00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:53,040
Speaker 1: you know, when Tillarion was on trial, his argument was basically,

664
00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:54,960
Speaker 1: you know, he was so traumatized and destroyed by the

665
00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:57,280
Speaker 1: genocide of his people he could not be held responsible

666
00:39:57,320 --> 00:39:59,879
Speaker 1: for his actions, which is a strategy. I'm not here

667
00:39:59,920 --> 00:40:02,840
Speaker 1: to criticize anyone on trial for their life for finding

668
00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:05,480
Speaker 1: a strategy that works for them. But Um Shelan doesn't

669
00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:08,880
Speaker 1: want to take this tactic because he wants to portray

670
00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:13,640
Speaker 1: his actions as righteous, not excuseable. So instead of talking

671
00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:15,920
Speaker 1: about how deeply he feels about this issue, or how

672
00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:18,400
Speaker 1: fucked up he was by witnessing the aftermath of pig roams,

673
00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:20,640
Speaker 1: or having to break the news to his cousin that

674
00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:22,799
Speaker 1: his favorite uncle had been murdered, or any of that.

675
00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:25,520
Speaker 1: He keeps the focus off his feelings and on the

676
00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:29,600
Speaker 1: horrific things that Petler was responsible for. He's just He's like, yeah,

677
00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:31,920
Speaker 1: I did it. I'm glad I did it. It was premeditated.

678
00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:36,600
Speaker 1: Here we go. Now. His lawyer for the defense is

679
00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:40,600
Speaker 1: Henri Torres. He's a socialist, He's Jewish. He has a

680
00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:44,319
Speaker 1: very strong reputation as an eloquent and skilled lawyer. The

681
00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:48,880
Speaker 1: prosecutor is a guy named campinche Um. He attacked Shelm's character,

682
00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:51,920
Speaker 1: trying to catch him in like the most random and

683
00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:54,560
Speaker 1: irrelevant of lies, and at one point comes out with

684
00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:59,400
Speaker 1: the stunning question, are you or are you not an anarchist?

685
00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:05,520
Speaker 1: What do you say? Slim was like, yeah, an anarchist. Yeah.

686
00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:07,719
Speaker 1: He tries to establish that Shelan fought for the Red

687
00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:10,160
Speaker 1: Army and is a Bolshevik agent, which he fails to

688
00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:12,359
Speaker 1: do because Slim did not fight for the Red Army

689
00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:15,600
Speaker 1: and it was not a Bolshevik agent. Um if that

690
00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:19,200
Speaker 1: sounds connected to anti submitted conspiracy theories. That's because it's

691
00:41:19,239 --> 00:41:22,840
Speaker 1: connected to anti Sebmitic conspiracy theories, and it sticks around. Uh.

692
00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:27,120
Speaker 1: Alan Dulls, the first head of the CIA, accused Soviet

693
00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:32,439
Speaker 1: security of assassinating Petlura in ninety three um, and it's

694
00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:35,600
Speaker 1: something you'll still hear from Petlura apologists today, So it's

695
00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:39,880
Speaker 1: out there. I love that y'all are either communists or capitalists,

696
00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:44,319
Speaker 1: depending on which group someone wants to demonize. Yeah, we're

697
00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:49,640
Speaker 1: like Schrodinger's bad guy. Yeah, you know, like whatever whatever

698
00:41:49,760 --> 00:41:52,200
Speaker 1: relationship to the means of production y'all are interested in,

699
00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:56,319
Speaker 1: We've we've got the wrong one. Yeah. Yeah, probably cause

700
00:41:56,320 --> 00:42:02,280
Speaker 1: you're all communist capitalists. That's probably why this is totally

701
00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:07,839
Speaker 1: a safe line of joking for me to make. Anyway.

702
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:10,719
Speaker 1: The other big argument of the prosecution is, well, why

703
00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:12,959
Speaker 1: would you kill pet Laura for doing programs? He didn't

704
00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:17,960
Speaker 1: do programs. He loved Jews, which is a claim. Now.

705
00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:20,120
Speaker 1: A big part of their argument is an article that

706
00:42:20,200 --> 00:42:23,040
Speaker 1: was published in a Yiddish newspaper that that actually claimed

707
00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:25,799
Speaker 1: that made that statement, and they should have done their

708
00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:29,279
Speaker 1: follow up research because the same paper printed a retraction

709
00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:35,160
Speaker 1: by the same author, and they don't know that that

710
00:42:35,320 --> 00:42:38,960
Speaker 1: article exists until Taurus reads this to them in court.

711
00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:42,200
Speaker 1: Pet Laura was head of the Ukrainian government and the

712
00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:44,840
Speaker 1: Ukrainian Army for over two years. Throughout nearly all of

713
00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:47,240
Speaker 1: this period, the programs continued. The head of the government

714
00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:49,080
Speaker 1: and of the army did not repress them, He did

715
00:42:49,080 --> 00:42:51,799
Speaker 1: not punish the guilty, he did not hand in his resignation,

716
00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:55,200
Speaker 1: and consequently he assumed the responsibility for every drop of

717
00:42:55,280 --> 00:43:00,600
Speaker 1: Jewish blood spilt. Yeah. Um, So next up, their their

718
00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:03,160
Speaker 1: strategy is to be like, well, schwarz Bart is a

719
00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:05,480
Speaker 1: shitty guy because two of the times he shot pitt Lura,

720
00:43:05,560 --> 00:43:08,080
Speaker 1: Petlura was already lying on the ground, and that is,

721
00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:11,440
Speaker 1: by some arcane standards, we have an extremely uncool thing

722
00:43:11,480 --> 00:43:15,919
Speaker 1: to do. Uh okay, this is probably only shoot somebody.

723
00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:21,359
Speaker 1: Yeah um. But Tauris is like, that's not even true, um,

724
00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:24,640
Speaker 1: And he re enacts the shooting in court and he

725
00:43:24,680 --> 00:43:29,840
Speaker 1: tries to make his assistant play exactly. He tries to

726
00:43:29,840 --> 00:43:32,759
Speaker 1: make his assistant payer Lura, and the assistant is like

727
00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:39,919
Speaker 1: that it's absolutely not in my job description. Internships never

728
00:43:40,040 --> 00:43:44,560
Speaker 1: changed rules. Um. Now, at one point the prosecution starts

729
00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:48,200
Speaker 1: naming other Ukrainian military commanders who would also who could

730
00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:51,799
Speaker 1: also have been blamed for the programs to be like, well,

731
00:43:52,239 --> 00:43:54,400
Speaker 1: you killed Pet Laura, but like this guy also it

732
00:43:54,440 --> 00:43:55,960
Speaker 1: could have been his fault. And one of the guys

733
00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:58,480
Speaker 1: they name is is a guy named Denikin Um and

734
00:43:58,520 --> 00:44:01,959
Speaker 1: Tauris responds, I would defend Farspard with the same fervor

735
00:44:02,040 --> 00:44:04,239
Speaker 1: if he had brought justice to Denikin as he did

736
00:44:04,239 --> 00:44:08,640
Speaker 1: to Pet Laura. Yeah, and then taken notes like, h

737
00:44:09,080 --> 00:44:14,680
Speaker 1: tell me more, is there an address for this? Referencing

738
00:44:14,719 --> 00:44:17,800
Speaker 1: the fact that Denikan had once supported France militarily, Torre

739
00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:21,520
Speaker 1: said that France could quote one day have allies who

740
00:44:21,520 --> 00:44:25,520
Speaker 1: are not complete bastards. I mean, like, you know who

741
00:44:25,560 --> 00:44:33,160
Speaker 1: else supported France militarily, you're fucking guys on did Yeah right,

742
00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:35,400
Speaker 1: but yeah, I mean get yourself a lawyer with the

743
00:44:35,520 --> 00:44:39,719
Speaker 1: energy there where he will defend his client for hypothetical murders.

744
00:44:39,719 --> 00:44:43,520
Speaker 1: He might have cond that guy too. It's that saying

745
00:44:43,960 --> 00:44:50,560
Speaker 1: we will, we support, we support him even if he's innocent. Yeah. Now,

746
00:44:51,520 --> 00:44:54,280
Speaker 1: Slan wanted to give a huge speech and he didn't

747
00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:57,480
Speaker 1: because his lawyer was like absolutely not. Um, you're going

748
00:44:57,520 --> 00:45:00,840
Speaker 1: to mention angels and it's going to go badly. He

749
00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:04,040
Speaker 1: published it later as the speech I Never gave, which

750
00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:06,920
Speaker 1: a little Damn who I quoted earlier with the translation

751
00:45:06,920 --> 00:45:10,319
Speaker 1: of Stilim's Wartime Poetry has translated it into English um

752
00:45:10,320 --> 00:45:12,319
Speaker 1: and it is a long litany of the crimes he

753
00:45:12,360 --> 00:45:14,880
Speaker 1: either witnessed, saw the aftermath of, or was told about

754
00:45:15,239 --> 00:45:17,840
Speaker 1: in Ukraine. It's got all the stuff we've already talked about,

755
00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:22,440
Speaker 1: more massacres, mutilations, torture, rape, desecration of bodies, even the

756
00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:24,759
Speaker 1: murder of a sympathetic Christian who tried to give dead

757
00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:27,480
Speaker 1: Jus a decent burial. And you know, it's all the

758
00:45:27,600 --> 00:45:30,600
Speaker 1: rage and pain that Sholm didn't really want on display

759
00:45:30,600 --> 00:45:33,200
Speaker 1: coming through, even though I think he meant it as

760
00:45:33,200 --> 00:45:35,799
Speaker 1: an objective listing of of the crimes of Petlura and

761
00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:39,520
Speaker 1: his men dom And it ends with try them, my judge,

762
00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:44,080
Speaker 1: which is pretty cool actually, But as I mentioned, my

763
00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:46,400
Speaker 1: partner is a criminal defense attorney, and I get the

764
00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:49,200
Speaker 1: sense that when they represent activists, which they often do,

765
00:45:49,719 --> 00:45:51,960
Speaker 1: half their fucking job is talking people out of their

766
00:45:51,960 --> 00:45:53,480
Speaker 1: desire to get up on the stand and make a

767
00:45:53,480 --> 00:45:57,560
Speaker 1: big self destification. You wants to do it. You do

768
00:45:57,640 --> 00:46:01,000
Speaker 1: that when you when the death penalty is coming, no

769
00:46:01,040 --> 00:46:06,160
Speaker 1: matter what you say. You know, the Haymarket martyrs were like,

770
00:46:06,840 --> 00:46:13,560
Speaker 1: we're done, let's give some fiery speeches, whereas Shalom is like,

771
00:46:15,120 --> 00:46:17,080
Speaker 1: I don't want to spoil anything here, but you know,

772
00:46:17,160 --> 00:46:19,439
Speaker 1: like it seems like he's got a chance right now.

773
00:46:20,360 --> 00:46:23,799
Speaker 1: Well wait, you even specifically said published something afterwards. You know,

774
00:46:23,920 --> 00:46:26,600
Speaker 1: I did say that that was a spoiler, but yeah,

775
00:46:26,800 --> 00:46:31,319
Speaker 1: just maybe keep keep it down over there. And also

776
00:46:31,400 --> 00:46:33,240
Speaker 1: like I really, I actually do think the speech doesn't

777
00:46:33,239 --> 00:46:35,400
Speaker 1: get across what what He was sort of trying to

778
00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:38,600
Speaker 1: get across that himself, but he really wanted to. You know,

779
00:46:38,680 --> 00:46:41,919
Speaker 1: everyone wants to do that, but Torres gave the job

780
00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:45,239
Speaker 1: of telling the story to someone else. That that someone

781
00:46:45,280 --> 00:46:49,600
Speaker 1: else was KaiA Greenberg, twenty nine year old Jewish woman

782
00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:52,120
Speaker 1: who had been witnessed to a program. Now I want

783
00:46:52,160 --> 00:46:55,200
Speaker 1: to thank my partner Mura Meltzer Cohen, who translated the

784
00:46:55,280 --> 00:46:58,960
Speaker 1: absolutely harrowing original French transcript of this testimony for me.

785
00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:03,640
Speaker 1: Um but In Greenberg was a first year medical student.

786
00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:06,640
Speaker 1: Um A lot of sources say she was a nurse,

787
00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:13,239
Speaker 1: but she was a medical student. Yeah. Um. She was

788
00:47:13,320 --> 00:47:16,239
Speaker 1: home visiting her family in a town called Proskerov when

789
00:47:16,239 --> 00:47:20,040
Speaker 1: their community was attacked by PETA's forces the day before

790
00:47:20,080 --> 00:47:22,440
Speaker 1: she was supposed to go back to school for her exams.

791
00:47:22,880 --> 00:47:25,640
Speaker 1: One thousand, six hundred and fifty Jews were killed in

792
00:47:25,640 --> 00:47:29,319
Speaker 1: the space of a few hours, and her grandparents house

793
00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:32,640
Speaker 1: was converted into a community organized hospital staffed by Jewish

794
00:47:32,719 --> 00:47:36,320
Speaker 1: doctors and at least one Russian Orthodox doctor. The makeshift

795
00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:38,600
Speaker 1: hospital was under the flag of the Danish Red Cross,

796
00:47:38,680 --> 00:47:42,319
Speaker 1: which offered it some protection, and despite feeling completely unqualified,

797
00:47:42,400 --> 00:47:45,720
Speaker 1: Kaya was basically drafted into acting as a nurse, trying

798
00:47:45,719 --> 00:47:49,160
Speaker 1: to help the wounded and dying. Her first patient was

799
00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:53,040
Speaker 1: a friend. Um. And here I'm gonna quote Ms. Wartenburg,

800
00:47:53,120 --> 00:47:55,279
Speaker 1: a friend of mine who just that Friday had been

801
00:47:55,360 --> 00:47:58,040
Speaker 1: quizzing me on anatomy. She was killed by a bullet

802
00:47:58,040 --> 00:48:00,720
Speaker 1: fired by a soldier on horseback passing by her window.

803
00:48:01,239 --> 00:48:06,360
Speaker 1: And she testifies in great detail about the programs Um.

804
00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:09,280
Speaker 1: This is from contemporary Time magazine coverage of the trial.

805
00:48:10,320 --> 00:48:12,799
Speaker 1: I shall never forget the red and snow sleds filled

806
00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:15,440
Speaker 1: with the hacked bodies going to the cemetery to deposit

807
00:48:15,440 --> 00:48:18,160
Speaker 1: their sad burden in a common pit. They brought the

808
00:48:18,200 --> 00:48:21,640
Speaker 1: wounded to the hospital, armless and lifless men, mutilated babies,

809
00:48:21,680 --> 00:48:24,240
Speaker 1: and young women whose screams became faint as their wounds

810
00:48:24,280 --> 00:48:28,560
Speaker 1: overcame them. She talks about like children arriving too traumatized

811
00:48:28,600 --> 00:48:32,040
Speaker 1: to speak, you know. She sees a ton of ship.

812
00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:35,480
Speaker 1: And she testifies that pet Lura came to Prosgerove and

813
00:48:35,600 --> 00:48:38,360
Speaker 1: refused to meet with the Jewish delegation, which the community

814
00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:39,839
Speaker 1: had hoped to be able to convince him to put

815
00:48:39,840 --> 00:48:44,040
Speaker 1: a stop to things. She says pet Leurro was responsible.

816
00:48:44,160 --> 00:48:47,720
Speaker 1: Even Ukrainian officers said so. His soldiers killed our people

817
00:48:47,840 --> 00:48:50,719
Speaker 1: shouting his name. One regiment had a band and it

818
00:48:50,760 --> 00:48:53,320
Speaker 1: played while knives fell on the heads of innocent babies.

819
00:48:53,640 --> 00:48:56,080
Speaker 1: Pet Leura could have stopped it, but he wouldn't listen

820
00:48:56,120 --> 00:48:59,400
Speaker 1: to our Please. Shum had wanted his defense to consist

821
00:48:59,400 --> 00:49:03,319
Speaker 1: of literally hundreds of witnesses, Um and survivors, but it

822
00:49:03,360 --> 00:49:06,160
Speaker 1: feels like maybe less was more. This one witness was

823
00:49:06,400 --> 00:49:10,160
Speaker 1: very compelling for people, including Shalem, who openly wept during

824
00:49:10,200 --> 00:49:14,000
Speaker 1: her testimony, and the cross examination just makes the prosecutor

825
00:49:14,040 --> 00:49:18,680
Speaker 1: look like an asshole. Now, after all that, Margaret, how

826
00:49:18,800 --> 00:49:20,239
Speaker 1: do you think it takes the jury to find a

827
00:49:20,360 --> 00:49:29,400
Speaker 1: verdict ten minutes? Twenty four minutes. In twenty four minutes,

828
00:49:29,440 --> 00:49:32,480
Speaker 1: the jury returns a verdict of not guilty on all charges,

829
00:49:32,640 --> 00:49:36,040
Speaker 1: and cries of vive la France echo through the courtroom

830
00:49:36,239 --> 00:49:42,320
Speaker 1: because yeah, the funk that guy defense, Yeah it worked

831
00:49:42,520 --> 00:49:45,640
Speaker 1: now it actually this means it actually took them four

832
00:49:45,680 --> 00:49:48,920
Speaker 1: minutes less to decide that Sholm was totally fine and

833
00:49:49,040 --> 00:49:51,319
Speaker 1: right to kill Pedlar than it did for Pedler to

834
00:49:51,400 --> 00:49:58,040
Speaker 1: die after being shot that guy. If they had started

835
00:49:58,080 --> 00:50:00,600
Speaker 1: deliberating the moment he was shot, they would have declared

836
00:50:00,600 --> 00:50:03,840
Speaker 1: his shooting completely chill before he died in twenty four minutes.

837
00:50:04,360 --> 00:50:07,080
Speaker 1: I fucking love it. I've taken longer to decide on takeout,

838
00:50:09,520 --> 00:50:12,839
Speaker 1: totally get seven people to agree on what to order

839
00:50:12,880 --> 00:50:15,040
Speaker 1: for dinner. I don't know how many French surers. But

840
00:50:15,120 --> 00:50:20,319
Speaker 1: like the whole like, okay, killing Petler. It doesn't bring

841
00:50:20,360 --> 00:50:24,600
Speaker 1: anyone back from the dead, right, it doesn't undo these atrocities,

842
00:50:25,280 --> 00:50:28,760
Speaker 1: but just the like, if you fucking do this, something

843
00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:35,040
Speaker 1: will fucking happen, you know, like the like I hate

844
00:50:35,040 --> 00:50:37,560
Speaker 1: the cliche that funk around and find out has become

845
00:50:38,239 --> 00:50:44,439
Speaker 1: right because like that guy dying does not balance any

846
00:50:44,600 --> 00:50:49,600
Speaker 1: scales of justice or something, right, But I like hope

847
00:50:49,600 --> 00:50:55,960
Speaker 1: it puts into someone's mind people will fucking find you.

848
00:50:55,960 --> 00:50:58,560
Speaker 1: You know, I don't know how to I wish I

849
00:50:58,560 --> 00:51:02,879
Speaker 1: had more eloquently say this. I mean, if there had

850
00:51:02,920 --> 00:51:07,399
Speaker 1: been more people willing to stock and murder people who

851
00:51:07,400 --> 00:51:11,760
Speaker 1: committed these atrocities, then you know, the world might look different.

852
00:51:12,120 --> 00:51:14,040
Speaker 1: If there had been you know, if the state had

853
00:51:14,080 --> 00:51:18,919
Speaker 1: been interested in prosecuting or you know, holding accountable people

854
00:51:18,920 --> 00:51:21,080
Speaker 1: who did these things, the world might look different. You know,

855
00:51:21,520 --> 00:51:23,360
Speaker 1: I don't know that, Like, like this is not the

856
00:51:23,440 --> 00:51:29,759
Speaker 1: ideal situation, right, but there is something kind of great

857
00:51:29,760 --> 00:51:35,680
Speaker 1: about this moment where like a bunch of people say, like, yeah,

858
00:51:35,719 --> 00:51:38,560
Speaker 1: you know what, that was an okay thing to do

859
00:51:38,680 --> 00:51:45,200
Speaker 1: in this situation. Yeah, because like, like vigilantism is complicated

860
00:51:45,239 --> 00:51:49,560
Speaker 1: at best. The concepts of justice and vengeance are like

861
00:51:50,120 --> 00:51:53,839
Speaker 1: used by people to do awful things on a regular basis. Right,

862
00:51:54,600 --> 00:51:57,640
Speaker 1: But there's still a line, you know, and everyone's going

863
00:51:57,680 --> 00:52:00,759
Speaker 1: to draw that line in a different place. But this

864
00:52:00,800 --> 00:52:04,680
Speaker 1: has clearly past any reasonable person's line. Uh, This level

865
00:52:04,800 --> 00:52:09,680
Speaker 1: of of pograms. Right, this level of of monstrous behavior

866
00:52:10,480 --> 00:52:14,879
Speaker 1: is clearly past any reasonable person's line. I was gonna

867
00:52:14,880 --> 00:52:16,480
Speaker 1: say it's beyond the pale, but I think that that

868
00:52:18,719 --> 00:52:22,799
Speaker 1: specifically where the Jews were forced to live in this

869
00:52:22,880 --> 00:52:25,640
Speaker 1: time and place where they were forced to live in

870
00:52:25,640 --> 00:52:29,880
Speaker 1: the pale. But yeah, it's like the you know this

871
00:52:29,880 --> 00:52:34,319
Speaker 1: this community or or you know Paris is saying we

872
00:52:34,360 --> 00:52:37,640
Speaker 1: would rather live in a city with the guy hunts

873
00:52:37,719 --> 00:52:41,879
Speaker 1: down the person responsible for these murders than the guy

874
00:52:42,040 --> 00:52:44,880
Speaker 1: responsible for these murders. Like we are we are happy

875
00:52:44,960 --> 00:52:51,920
Speaker 1: with that totally. That is absolutely yeah damn all right yeah, um, anyway,

876
00:52:52,360 --> 00:52:56,960
Speaker 1: google jury nullification every way, because that's what they did here, right,

877
00:52:57,040 --> 00:52:58,799
Speaker 1: Like there was no law on the books that said,

878
00:52:58,840 --> 00:53:01,160
Speaker 1: like you can kill some one if they are a

879
00:53:01,200 --> 00:53:05,239
Speaker 1: real piece of ship. They just decided we're fine with this.

880
00:53:05,560 --> 00:53:09,759
Speaker 1: And like jury nullification also complicated, right, Like it has

881
00:53:09,760 --> 00:53:12,480
Speaker 1: often been used in the US for um and jury

882
00:53:12,560 --> 00:53:17,000
Speaker 1: nullification is the act of a jury declaring somebody not

883
00:53:17,080 --> 00:53:20,080
Speaker 1: guilty even when they think that that person factually committed

884
00:53:20,080 --> 00:53:22,960
Speaker 1: the crime because they feel that the person was justified

885
00:53:22,960 --> 00:53:25,719
Speaker 1: in breaking the law basically, or that the law is wrong.

886
00:53:26,280 --> 00:53:29,520
Speaker 1: And historically that's complicated, like it was definitely used to

887
00:53:30,680 --> 00:53:33,640
Speaker 1: make sure that white people who murder black people have

888
00:53:33,680 --> 00:53:37,480
Speaker 1: not faced consequences, for example, but it also has the

889
00:53:37,520 --> 00:53:41,000
Speaker 1: power to be used in other situations, like, for example,

890
00:53:41,880 --> 00:53:45,799
Speaker 1: preventing somebody from going to prison on drug charges as

891
00:53:45,840 --> 00:53:49,480
Speaker 1: a for instance. So stop dodging your jury duty. Google

892
00:53:49,560 --> 00:53:52,719
Speaker 1: jury nullification, think real hard about it. But don't say

893
00:53:52,840 --> 00:53:55,239
Speaker 1: Google jury unification to the other jurors in the room,

894
00:53:55,280 --> 00:54:01,279
Speaker 1: because that's somehow a thing you can get in trouble for. Anyway,

895
00:54:01,320 --> 00:54:04,839
Speaker 1: this episode is brought to you by jury Nullification. There's

896
00:54:04,840 --> 00:54:08,680
Speaker 1: actually there's a really good zine UM called Jury Independence Illustrated,

897
00:54:08,800 --> 00:54:14,719
Speaker 1: which you should look up. So anyway, twenty four minutes later,

898
00:54:15,400 --> 00:54:18,839
Speaker 1: Um and Schilan's life is is totally changed. Um he's out,

899
00:54:19,000 --> 00:54:23,319
Speaker 1: he's free, but his time in prison has done what

900
00:54:23,440 --> 00:54:26,760
Speaker 1: his injuries from World War One and the Russian Revolution couldn't,

901
00:54:27,040 --> 00:54:29,719
Speaker 1: which just prevent him from working as a clockmak Um

902
00:54:29,800 --> 00:54:35,799
Speaker 1: The Yeah, the bad light in prison had ruined his eyesight. Oh,

903
00:54:36,200 --> 00:54:39,680
Speaker 1: so he spent some time at silan Ash's house. Um.

904
00:54:39,680 --> 00:54:42,719
Speaker 1: He and his friends celebrate his acquittal and he announces

905
00:54:42,800 --> 00:54:46,279
Speaker 1: that he's done. He feels he's fulfilled his revolutionary duty.

906
00:54:46,560 --> 00:54:54,000
Speaker 1: That's legit. Yeah, honestly, like it seems fine. Yeah. Um.

907
00:54:54,040 --> 00:54:56,680
Speaker 1: And he he takes a step back from anarchism, partly

908
00:54:56,760 --> 00:54:59,560
Speaker 1: because of how betrayed he felt by how many anarchists

909
00:54:59,560 --> 00:55:02,640
Speaker 1: refuses support him, but mostly because he's just like, I'm retired,

910
00:55:02,760 --> 00:55:06,400
Speaker 1: I've I'm done. He wants to go off and live

911
00:55:06,440 --> 00:55:10,440
Speaker 1: a quiet life. Now he wants to do it in Palestine,

912
00:55:11,560 --> 00:55:15,239
Speaker 1: which is complicated now. Really importantly, he is not trying

913
00:55:15,280 --> 00:55:18,040
Speaker 1: to build a Jewish state. He is opposed to building

914
00:55:18,040 --> 00:55:21,120
Speaker 1: a Jewish state, but he is trying to immigrate to

915
00:55:21,160 --> 00:55:24,840
Speaker 1: British Mandate Palestine and live and farm there. His old mentor, Zalkin,

916
00:55:24,960 --> 00:55:28,000
Speaker 1: is already there, advocating against Zionism and arguing for a

917
00:55:28,040 --> 00:55:30,880
Speaker 1: stateless society and trying to build like a multicultural, multi

918
00:55:30,920 --> 00:55:35,560
Speaker 1: religious stateless society. And he and Selan basically want Jewish

919
00:55:35,560 --> 00:55:38,920
Speaker 1: refugees to be able to immigrate to Palestine. Um. And

920
00:55:39,080 --> 00:55:42,520
Speaker 1: you know, like I said, build up alongside Palestinian Jews

921
00:55:42,520 --> 00:55:46,239
Speaker 1: and non Jewish Arab communities. Um. And you know, I

922
00:55:46,280 --> 00:55:48,400
Speaker 1: don't know if that would have worked out, that's what

923
00:55:48,480 --> 00:55:53,319
Speaker 1: he wanted. There's definitely a settler mindset at work there. Um,

924
00:55:53,400 --> 00:55:56,280
Speaker 1: But like also his options are limited, like the number

925
00:55:56,320 --> 00:55:58,719
Speaker 1: of places where Jews are not being murdered and and

926
00:55:58,840 --> 00:56:01,960
Speaker 1: ken Go is you know, not not huge at this

927
00:56:02,200 --> 00:56:05,080
Speaker 1: at this moment from where he's standing. Um, so he's

928
00:56:05,080 --> 00:56:07,360
Speaker 1: basically saying like, I want to go anywhere where we

929
00:56:07,400 --> 00:56:10,120
Speaker 1: can set up something, but it's all kind of a

930
00:56:10,160 --> 00:56:15,680
Speaker 1: moot point because Britain is like absolutely not and denize

931
00:56:15,680 --> 00:56:21,879
Speaker 1: a movisa. Yeah, so he's not going anyway. Now. He

932
00:56:21,960 --> 00:56:24,640
Speaker 1: foresees more violence for Jews coming in Europe in the

933
00:56:24,640 --> 00:56:30,719
Speaker 1: twentieth century. Crazy, you know, So he's trying. He tries

934
00:56:30,760 --> 00:56:33,920
Speaker 1: to organize an international Army for Jewish self defense made

935
00:56:34,000 --> 00:56:37,680
Speaker 1: up of veterans. It doesn't really go anywhere. Um. He

936
00:56:37,719 --> 00:56:40,480
Speaker 1: and Anna settled down rural France for a while and

937
00:56:40,480 --> 00:56:43,960
Speaker 1: they're just you know, growing food, having visas denied, you know.

938
00:56:44,280 --> 00:56:48,040
Speaker 1: But in when the Nazis takeover in Germany, people suddenly

939
00:56:48,080 --> 00:56:51,799
Speaker 1: remember his existence and he goes on a speaking tour

940
00:56:51,840 --> 00:56:55,480
Speaker 1: of North America. Now his goal here is to organize

941
00:56:55,560 --> 00:56:59,279
Speaker 1: militant anti fascist response, but apparently everyone else's goal is

942
00:56:59,320 --> 00:57:01,839
Speaker 1: to be like wow, oh yeah, and you so much sure,

943
00:57:01,960 --> 00:57:06,040
Speaker 1: suck uh and like not actually do anything. Yeah, and

944
00:57:06,120 --> 00:57:09,799
Speaker 1: not not really do anything. He finds that disappointing, as

945
00:57:09,880 --> 00:57:13,320
Speaker 1: do I. Now. At some point in here, a Ukrainian

946
00:57:13,320 --> 00:57:17,400
Speaker 1: newspaper publishes a story claiming that Shulan went to Hollywood

947
00:57:17,440 --> 00:57:20,000
Speaker 1: and acted in a filmed recreation of his assassination of

948
00:57:20,040 --> 00:57:23,280
Speaker 1: pit Lura. And I'm pretty sure it's a lie because

949
00:57:23,280 --> 00:57:26,480
Speaker 1: I can't find any other mention of it anywhere. Um,

950
00:57:26,560 --> 00:57:30,120
Speaker 1: but I really wish it were true. I think this

951
00:57:30,160 --> 00:57:31,680
Speaker 1: is like a common theme. I think. I don't I

952
00:57:31,720 --> 00:57:33,360
Speaker 1: can't remember if you and I have talked about this,

953
00:57:33,440 --> 00:57:38,240
Speaker 1: but like the rumors people start about groups and people

954
00:57:38,320 --> 00:57:43,240
Speaker 1: that they hate are often so fucking cool, and like

955
00:57:43,320 --> 00:57:46,040
Speaker 1: this is an example. I don't think this happened. I

956
00:57:46,080 --> 00:57:49,160
Speaker 1: just did this like long research project about anti anti

957
00:57:49,200 --> 00:57:52,240
Speaker 1: fascism in Hollywood and the twenties and thirties, and like

958
00:57:52,400 --> 00:57:56,680
Speaker 1: I just listened to it and and I heard nothing

959
00:57:56,720 --> 00:58:01,080
Speaker 1: about this, and it like would have been breaking news,

960
00:58:01,560 --> 00:58:06,480
Speaker 1: you know, because like yeah, yeah, oh no, I think

961
00:58:06,520 --> 00:58:12,640
Speaker 1: it's definitely a lie, and make it as if it's

962
00:58:12,680 --> 00:58:16,600
Speaker 1: made back then that's what someone should guess. Yes, that

963
00:58:16,600 --> 00:58:19,640
Speaker 1: would rule. No, Yeah, I only found the mention of

964
00:58:19,680 --> 00:58:22,560
Speaker 1: this in this one Ukrainian newspaper and like can't find

965
00:58:22,600 --> 00:58:25,520
Speaker 1: any mention of it anywhere else, can find any menshevik

966
00:58:25,600 --> 00:58:31,560
Speaker 1: of it. Ah, that's the worst joke, okay, menshevik puns.

967
00:58:32,160 --> 00:58:35,520
Speaker 1: There is like a French film of the assess of

968
00:58:35,600 --> 00:58:37,920
Speaker 1: like the trial of Schlan Spartzbard that I saw a

969
00:58:37,960 --> 00:58:40,080
Speaker 1: little bit of. It does have him like giving the

970
00:58:40,080 --> 00:58:43,520
Speaker 1: big speech because it's a movie. Um. And there's also

971
00:58:43,560 --> 00:58:48,400
Speaker 1: a Ukrainian film about Simon Petliura that is like super

972
00:58:48,480 --> 00:58:50,960
Speaker 1: into Simon Peleira. I haven't seen it, but I watched

973
00:58:50,960 --> 00:58:54,640
Speaker 1: a trailer for it, and it like has a shadowy

974
00:58:54,680 --> 00:58:58,200
Speaker 1: like agent coming into like a clockmaker's shop and being like,

975
00:58:58,840 --> 00:59:03,840
Speaker 1: we have a job for you, like anything for you,

976
00:59:04,400 --> 00:59:10,280
Speaker 1: Mr Lennon, Yeah, exactly, No, it's it looks bad. I

977
00:59:10,280 --> 00:59:14,320
Speaker 1: I don't know, man, it looks bad. Yeah, somebody should

978
00:59:14,360 --> 00:59:19,160
Speaker 1: make a good movie about this. Damn. What a guy.

979
00:59:19,520 --> 00:59:22,440
Speaker 1: I want to know more about because like Anna stays

980
00:59:22,440 --> 00:59:24,840
Speaker 1: with him right through thick and thin, and is that

981
00:59:24,880 --> 00:59:27,440
Speaker 1: like I want to believe you want to know more

982
00:59:27,440 --> 00:59:29,640
Speaker 1: about because like I want to know what she was

983
00:59:29,680 --> 00:59:33,960
Speaker 1: doing in Ukraine during the revolution, in the Civil war, yes,

984
00:59:34,080 --> 00:59:35,880
Speaker 1: because she's not on the front with him, but she's

985
00:59:35,920 --> 00:59:38,080
Speaker 1: like in Odessa, she's like, right, is she working with

986
00:59:38,120 --> 00:59:40,040
Speaker 1: the orphans stuff and it's like bottom lining and he

987
00:59:40,040 --> 00:59:43,120
Speaker 1: gets all the credit or is like she off doing

988
00:59:43,200 --> 00:59:50,360
Speaker 1: some like secret uh secret agent missions like is um

989
00:59:50,480 --> 00:59:52,800
Speaker 1: is she actually comrades Sophia and in contact with the

990
00:59:52,840 --> 00:59:57,440
Speaker 1: whole time. And then also like their decision to settle

991
00:59:57,480 --> 01:00:01,560
Speaker 1: down rurally right, like you know, obviously they had this

992
01:00:01,680 --> 01:00:04,680
Speaker 1: bad spot where she jumps on the running board worried

993
01:00:04,720 --> 01:00:07,320
Speaker 1: about him and he's like my wife, Am I right?

994
01:00:07,880 --> 01:00:13,320
Speaker 1: You know? Women? But like there's like something too certain.

995
01:00:13,400 --> 01:00:16,760
Speaker 1: Maybe maybe this is I feel like I've seen relationships

996
01:00:16,880 --> 01:00:20,720
Speaker 1: of like people have been together for fifty years where

997
01:00:20,800 --> 01:00:27,320
Speaker 1: some of their dynamic it's very uh inflictual, but there's

998
01:00:27,360 --> 01:00:29,800
Speaker 1: like a sweetness underlying it that I don't know how

999
01:00:29,880 --> 01:00:34,440
Speaker 1: to describe. Maybe I'm just like trying too hard, not

1000
01:00:34,480 --> 01:00:36,680
Speaker 1: necessarily to redeem him, but in some ways like redeeming

1001
01:00:37,840 --> 01:00:42,280
Speaker 1: not redeem her because she needs redemption, but like that

1002
01:00:42,280 --> 01:00:44,439
Speaker 1: that that she gets to have a decent life. That's

1003
01:00:44,440 --> 01:00:47,720
Speaker 1: what I'm like looking for. But go ahead. I think

1004
01:00:47,920 --> 01:00:51,480
Speaker 1: that somebody needs to make a movie of like an

1005
01:00:51,520 --> 01:00:54,720
Speaker 1: Anna perspective of this whole story, and I think like

1006
01:00:54,880 --> 01:00:57,560
Speaker 1: you are the girl to write that screenplay. That is

1007
01:00:57,600 --> 01:01:02,600
Speaker 1: what I think, Sophie. Can we green light that for Netflix?

1008
01:01:02,600 --> 01:01:06,560
Speaker 1: You're in charge of Netflix. Yes, yes we can, Margaret,

1009
01:01:07,160 --> 01:01:12,240
Speaker 1: This is Sophie vic Dermendous is my voice? Yeah, Sophie says, yes,

1010
01:01:12,320 --> 01:01:17,560
Speaker 1: all right, great look coming soon to cool Zone Media.

1011
01:01:17,960 --> 01:01:29,600
Speaker 1: On film, Anna Sophia, Comrade Anna Sophia, hero of for

1012
01:01:30,480 --> 01:01:37,280
Speaker 1: hero of No Nations. That's the film. So to bring

1013
01:01:37,360 --> 01:01:40,160
Speaker 1: this story that you will be turning into a film

1014
01:01:40,200 --> 01:01:43,920
Speaker 1: to an end, Shelan basically spends the last years of

1015
01:01:43,960 --> 01:01:48,080
Speaker 1: his life, which, unfortunately, after a heart attack, working on

1016
01:01:48,080 --> 01:01:52,720
Speaker 1: a Yiddish language encyclopedia. He's he's done his revolutionary work,

1017
01:01:52,720 --> 01:01:55,320
Speaker 1: He's done his fighting. He's never as active again as

1018
01:01:55,320 --> 01:01:57,560
Speaker 1: he was before the assassination, which is kind of a

1019
01:01:57,640 --> 01:02:00,880
Speaker 1: narrative letdown, but I honestly feel he deserves some peace

1020
01:02:00,880 --> 01:02:04,760
Speaker 1: and quiet. He had a climaccident, He fucking had a

1021
01:02:05,280 --> 01:02:11,040
Speaker 1: tour lessening of action. I was so excited to hear

1022
01:02:11,040 --> 01:02:13,800
Speaker 1: you try to say that word, Margaret. You did hear

1023
01:02:13,840 --> 01:02:15,800
Speaker 1: me try to say it. I didn't even get halfway

1024
01:02:15,800 --> 01:02:22,200
Speaker 1: through it. Now Anna outlives him and writes a poem

1025
01:02:22,760 --> 01:02:29,480
Speaker 1: published which ends this way. Long since forgotten, recognized by

1026
01:02:29,480 --> 01:02:31,760
Speaker 1: no one, yet still she has so much to tell.

1027
01:02:32,200 --> 01:02:34,120
Speaker 1: She sits in her little room and talks to the

1028
01:02:34,120 --> 01:02:36,280
Speaker 1: walls in order to heal the wounds of her heart.

1029
01:02:37,080 --> 01:02:40,080
Speaker 1: Once there was a Jewish hero, renowned in all Jewish homes,

1030
01:02:40,080 --> 01:02:43,160
Speaker 1: but the world forgot you like me, you my only

1031
01:02:43,200 --> 01:02:46,240
Speaker 1: true one and beloved. In the little room, it's dark,

1032
01:02:46,400 --> 01:02:50,120
Speaker 1: the light extinguished. Then she sees standing there as her sholm.

1033
01:02:50,120 --> 01:02:52,960
Speaker 1: He kisses her and comforts her. She soon wakes up.

1034
01:02:53,480 --> 01:02:58,520
Speaker 1: It was sadly only a dream. So she I think

1035
01:02:58,520 --> 01:03:00,920
Speaker 1: she really loved him. Um, you know, for all that

1036
01:03:01,800 --> 01:03:07,400
Speaker 1: he was not great about consulting her about major life choices. Um,

1037
01:03:07,840 --> 01:03:11,400
Speaker 1: and we only see the worst decision what what I

1038
01:03:11,440 --> 01:03:15,120
Speaker 1: hope are the worst decisions he made as regards to

1039
01:03:15,280 --> 01:03:19,400
Speaker 1: the love of his life. Yeah, yeah, I I hope

1040
01:03:19,440 --> 01:03:24,080
Speaker 1: their relationship was like better than than that incident on

1041
01:03:24,120 --> 01:03:31,040
Speaker 1: the running boards would suggest. But yeah, yeah, you know

1042
01:03:31,680 --> 01:03:33,280
Speaker 1: this is that's kind of the end of the story.

1043
01:03:33,360 --> 01:03:35,240
Speaker 1: What what do you think? What do you think of

1044
01:03:35,400 --> 01:03:38,080
Speaker 1: Shulan Schwartzbad? No, I mean he's just fucking cool. I mean,

1045
01:03:38,080 --> 01:03:42,960
Speaker 1: obviously it's complicated, right, but like it's interesting because like overall,

1046
01:03:44,920 --> 01:03:49,680
Speaker 1: I I like I like individual actors moving through history

1047
01:03:49,840 --> 01:03:52,760
Speaker 1: as ways to tie together and like keep a narrative

1048
01:03:52,920 --> 01:03:57,040
Speaker 1: view on something rather than believing like individual people are

1049
01:03:57,040 --> 01:04:00,600
Speaker 1: what shape history, because it's large groups of visual people

1050
01:04:00,600 --> 01:04:04,800
Speaker 1: that shape history. Like including the actions of individuals do matter.

1051
01:04:04,840 --> 01:04:08,200
Speaker 1: It's not the undifferentiated masses that that cause. You know,

1052
01:04:08,280 --> 01:04:11,320
Speaker 1: like there's a a great man of history is bullshit

1053
01:04:11,560 --> 01:04:15,400
Speaker 1: where individual people men cause all the change, right, But

1054
01:04:15,440 --> 01:04:18,920
Speaker 1: there's also this like depersonalized one where it's like, oh,

1055
01:04:18,960 --> 01:04:23,240
Speaker 1: only movements change anything, right, And that's not true because

1056
01:04:23,280 --> 01:04:26,280
Speaker 1: there's like often has to be the first person to

1057
01:04:26,400 --> 01:04:30,960
Speaker 1: like do something right, or there has to be the

1058
01:04:31,040 --> 01:04:35,280
Speaker 1: individual actions of individuals are what create a movement. And

1059
01:04:35,320 --> 01:04:38,520
Speaker 1: so it's interesting to tell this story that ties together

1060
01:04:38,600 --> 01:04:40,960
Speaker 1: all this different stuff that is like centered around this

1061
01:04:41,560 --> 01:04:46,040
Speaker 1: this one figure because it's not like he is the

1062
01:04:46,120 --> 01:04:49,240
Speaker 1: agent of change in history, but instead he's like a

1063
01:04:49,360 --> 01:04:54,720
Speaker 1: character by which we can understand and humanize, like so

1064
01:04:54,800 --> 01:04:57,720
Speaker 1: much like like what happens what happened in the Ukrainians

1065
01:04:57,720 --> 01:05:01,360
Speaker 1: Civil War? But then also what it means to walk

1066
01:05:01,400 --> 01:05:04,520
Speaker 1: around in the world being like, well, that guy murdered

1067
01:05:05,040 --> 01:05:08,680
Speaker 1: uncountable numbers of juice and I want to do something

1068
01:05:08,720 --> 01:05:12,520
Speaker 1: about it, you know. Um No, it's just interesting. I

1069
01:05:12,880 --> 01:05:17,560
Speaker 1: really like this, this, um, this story that you've you've told,

1070
01:05:17,600 --> 01:05:20,200
Speaker 1: and I really appreciate the work that you put into it,

1071
01:05:20,240 --> 01:05:21,680
Speaker 1: and also the work that all of the people who

1072
01:05:21,720 --> 01:05:25,480
Speaker 1: helped you put into it. I mean, yeah, first of all, um,

1073
01:05:25,560 --> 01:05:28,800
Speaker 1: I've mentioned these people before, but um, I should I

1074
01:05:28,800 --> 01:05:36,040
Speaker 1: should say again that Kelly Johnson, Anna, Elena Taurres, Ali Damn,

1075
01:05:36,240 --> 01:05:40,600
Speaker 1: and Karen Finlayson. Um, we're all super helpful, um A,

1076
01:05:40,640 --> 01:05:44,120
Speaker 1: Shane m Dunk to all of them, and to Maura

1077
01:05:44,200 --> 01:05:47,840
Speaker 1: Meltzer Cohen who helped me also with translation. But yeah,

1078
01:05:47,960 --> 01:05:52,440
Speaker 1: I I think, like, what's actually super interesting that I

1079
01:05:52,560 --> 01:05:54,720
Speaker 1: learned doing the research of this, because, like I when

1080
01:05:54,760 --> 01:05:58,040
Speaker 1: I was ranting at you while drunk about this guy,

1081
01:05:58,440 --> 01:06:01,880
Speaker 1: I'm I knew like the Wikipedia version of his story

1082
01:06:02,080 --> 01:06:05,120
Speaker 1: and he was mostly you know, known as an assassin,

1083
01:06:05,320 --> 01:06:07,360
Speaker 1: but if you look at the whole course of his life,

1084
01:06:08,200 --> 01:06:12,919
Speaker 1: the community defense that he did probably had a much

1085
01:06:13,000 --> 01:06:17,000
Speaker 1: bigger impact in terms of protecting the lives of the

1086
01:06:17,080 --> 01:06:20,600
Speaker 1: Jews of Ukraine than the assassination did, right, Like, I

1087
01:06:20,600 --> 01:06:24,800
Speaker 1: think that was kind of his great work in you know,

1088
01:06:24,880 --> 01:06:26,840
Speaker 1: in terms of like the time he spent and like

1089
01:06:26,880 --> 01:06:31,439
Speaker 1: the impact it had so sort of to go along

1090
01:06:31,480 --> 01:06:35,560
Speaker 1: with what you were saying about, like being this combination

1091
01:06:35,640 --> 01:06:40,080
Speaker 1: of like large forces and movements and also individual action.

1092
01:06:41,040 --> 01:06:44,000
Speaker 1: The end of his individual action stands out right this

1093
01:06:44,040 --> 01:06:51,200
Speaker 1: moment where he assassinates this famous powerful person. But the

1094
01:06:51,320 --> 01:06:54,800
Speaker 1: sort of more the less dramatic work that he'd been

1095
01:06:54,840 --> 01:07:01,720
Speaker 1: doing for years almost certainly saved more lots. Yeah, totally,

1096
01:07:02,240 --> 01:07:05,080
Speaker 1: And it like like even just specifically the thing where

1097
01:07:05,080 --> 01:07:07,160
Speaker 1: he got the religious Jews and the secular Jews to

1098
01:07:07,200 --> 01:07:12,120
Speaker 1: get together to fucking defend communities like that rules, and

1099
01:07:12,160 --> 01:07:14,840
Speaker 1: that's something that was uniquely he wasn't in a unique

1100
01:07:14,840 --> 01:07:17,600
Speaker 1: position to do because he was a religious Jew, but

1101
01:07:17,680 --> 01:07:20,479
Speaker 1: because of his politics he hung with mostly secular Jews.

1102
01:07:20,520 --> 01:07:24,560
Speaker 1: It seems like, but I am curious that you left

1103
01:07:24,600 --> 01:07:30,560
Speaker 1: out his greatest work. What's that? Is it? The scary clocks?

1104
01:07:30,560 --> 01:07:39,160
Speaker 1: How the clocks were the foundational math and gearing necessary

1105
01:07:39,640 --> 01:07:46,080
Speaker 1: to aim the space laser, because that he sure likes

1106
01:07:46,080 --> 01:07:49,880
Speaker 1: to talk about the space laser in a you know,

1107
01:07:50,040 --> 01:07:54,240
Speaker 1: in in a open setting. But but this is just

1108
01:07:54,320 --> 01:07:56,640
Speaker 1: you and me. Yeah, yeah, yeah, And it probably was

1109
01:07:56,680 --> 01:07:59,760
Speaker 1: the space laser that got that guy, not not a

1110
01:08:00,000 --> 01:08:04,680
Speaker 1: on right, not not all, not the five bullets. Yeah,

1111
01:08:05,240 --> 01:08:07,800
Speaker 1: I mean the space laser obviously played into it. But like,

1112
01:08:08,520 --> 01:08:10,400
Speaker 1: here's the thing you got to understand about space laser.

1113
01:08:10,440 --> 01:08:14,360
Speaker 1: It's like there is a fucking waiting list for your

1114
01:08:14,480 --> 01:08:18,680
Speaker 1: chance to use the space laser, like it is impossible,

1115
01:08:19,360 --> 01:08:21,559
Speaker 1: you know, and then like by the time your your

1116
01:08:21,560 --> 01:08:23,720
Speaker 1: turn comes up, it's like, oh I forgot, and I

1117
01:08:23,760 --> 01:08:28,880
Speaker 1: actually like I you know, I booked a haircut at

1118
01:08:28,920 --> 01:08:31,000
Speaker 1: that same time, and like, on now, what do I do?

1119
01:08:31,160 --> 01:08:34,799
Speaker 1: You know, It's like it's not as useful as you think. Honestly,

1120
01:08:35,000 --> 01:08:37,960
Speaker 1: the space laser it's super inconvenient. Are you saying that

1121
01:08:38,000 --> 01:08:39,479
Speaker 1: if people want to get things done, they have to

1122
01:08:39,520 --> 01:08:44,920
Speaker 1: do them themselves. Yeah? I think I think direct action,

1123
01:08:45,120 --> 01:08:51,200
Speaker 1: not space lasers, gets the goods. Alright, alright, bold bold words.

1124
01:08:52,040 --> 01:08:54,559
Speaker 1: Thanks to everyone for listening to the first reverse episode

1125
01:08:54,600 --> 01:08:56,960
Speaker 1: of Cool People Did Cool Stuff, where it's not reverse

1126
01:08:57,040 --> 01:08:59,479
Speaker 1: to make people uncool, it's just literally reversed where someone

1127
01:08:59,479 --> 01:09:04,919
Speaker 1: else reads me a script that they prepared and I'm grateful.

1128
01:09:05,800 --> 01:09:07,400
Speaker 1: I'm about to say it as if I'm joking. I'm

1129
01:09:07,439 --> 01:09:10,920
Speaker 1: not fake. Sarcasm apparently is my affect of the past

1130
01:09:10,960 --> 01:09:14,559
Speaker 1: couple of months. This is great. Do you have anything?

1131
01:09:15,200 --> 01:09:17,160
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for letting me come and talk

1132
01:09:17,160 --> 01:09:19,960
Speaker 1: about this. It's probably not going to stop me from

1133
01:09:20,000 --> 01:09:22,400
Speaker 1: ranting about slam at people when I get drunk. But

1134
01:09:22,560 --> 01:09:24,160
Speaker 1: can we tell the story of how it ended up

1135
01:09:24,160 --> 01:09:28,519
Speaker 1: being a reverse episode? Um? Yeah, you were. You were like, hey,

1136
01:09:28,560 --> 01:09:31,280
Speaker 1: can I do an episode about She'll about that guy

1137
01:09:31,360 --> 01:09:33,599
Speaker 1: you keep telling me about? And I was like, no,

1138
01:09:34,160 --> 01:09:40,439
Speaker 1: you I'm doing it. Like fine, I have I felt

1139
01:09:40,479 --> 01:09:44,519
Speaker 1: too proprietary about this, and and and rightfully so, do

1140
01:09:44,560 --> 01:09:46,439
Speaker 1: you have anything you'd like to plug here at the

1141
01:09:46,600 --> 01:09:50,720
Speaker 1: end of all things? Um? Yeah, I mean I during nullification,

1142
01:09:51,120 --> 01:09:54,440
Speaker 1: I will plug all day long look into jury nullification.

1143
01:09:54,920 --> 01:09:58,840
Speaker 1: And I also, you know previously mentioned on the other episodes,

1144
01:09:59,240 --> 01:10:02,160
Speaker 1: land backed org um, which is a great place to

1145
01:10:02,240 --> 01:10:05,400
Speaker 1: direct some money and to look to for educational resources,

1146
01:10:06,040 --> 01:10:09,840
Speaker 1: and the I Fact Fund on twitter um, which can

1147
01:10:09,960 --> 01:10:12,840
Speaker 1: use some money to put individual first aid kits in

1148
01:10:12,880 --> 01:10:16,280
Speaker 1: the hands of people who will use them. Yeah, and

1149
01:10:16,320 --> 01:10:19,280
Speaker 1: then and uh, also by Margaret's book, well I want

1150
01:10:19,280 --> 01:10:21,839
Speaker 1: to plug a different book, a book that I'm published.

1151
01:10:22,520 --> 01:10:26,000
Speaker 1: I think. So we've gone rogue. We can do anything

1152
01:10:26,040 --> 01:10:28,400
Speaker 1: we want. There's no producer here. We can do anything.

1153
01:10:28,400 --> 01:10:30,000
Speaker 1: So what I'm going to tell you is that I

1154
01:10:30,000 --> 01:10:33,160
Speaker 1: am part of a publishing collective called Strangers in a

1155
01:10:33,200 --> 01:10:37,519
Speaker 1: Tangled Wilderness and we are publishing our first not our

1156
01:10:37,560 --> 01:10:40,280
Speaker 1: first book as Strangers, because we've been around for about

1157
01:10:40,280 --> 01:10:42,639
Speaker 1: twenty years, but there's a new collective of folks who

1158
01:10:42,640 --> 01:10:44,680
Speaker 1: have kind of given new life to the project. And

1159
01:10:44,720 --> 01:10:47,320
Speaker 1: our first book with this new iteration is called tri

1160
01:10:47,400 --> 01:10:52,479
Speaker 1: Anarchism for Life by Cindy Milstein, and it is Um,

1161
01:10:52,560 --> 01:10:56,120
Speaker 1: if you liked today's content, you might like it. It's

1162
01:10:56,120 --> 01:11:00,200
Speaker 1: available for pre order now. It comes out on clean

1163
01:11:00,240 --> 01:11:03,559
Speaker 1: November one, and if you go to Tangled Wilderness dot

1164
01:11:03,720 --> 01:11:06,320
Speaker 1: org you will find a link to pre order it.

1165
01:11:06,400 --> 01:11:08,200
Speaker 1: And if you pre order it, you get little stickers

1166
01:11:08,200 --> 01:11:11,080
Speaker 1: that are like ex liber stickers that you can put

1167
01:11:11,080 --> 01:11:14,360
Speaker 1: in your books. You can feel all cool and yeah,

1168
01:11:14,439 --> 01:11:16,880
Speaker 1: I think you all might like it. And that's what

1169
01:11:16,960 --> 01:11:20,479
Speaker 1: I'm going to plug. Speaking of Cindy Milstein, UM, I

1170
01:11:20,520 --> 01:11:23,360
Speaker 1: actually really wanted to plug a book. Um, I'm glad

1171
01:11:23,360 --> 01:11:26,639
Speaker 1: you reminded me also by also edited by them, also

1172
01:11:26,760 --> 01:11:29,360
Speaker 1: from a k Press called there is Nothing so Whole

1173
01:11:29,400 --> 01:11:32,840
Speaker 1: as a Broken Heart mending the world as Jewish anarchists.

1174
01:11:32,920 --> 01:11:34,599
Speaker 1: So if anybody like listen to this and they were

1175
01:11:34,640 --> 01:11:38,040
Speaker 1: like Jewish anarchism, tell me more, that's a book you

1176
01:11:38,080 --> 01:11:41,679
Speaker 1: could check out. I I'm reading it now. I just started.

1177
01:11:41,720 --> 01:11:44,759
Speaker 1: I flipped to the part where my friend had contributed

1178
01:11:44,800 --> 01:11:46,240
Speaker 1: to it and read that part and it ruled. And

1179
01:11:46,280 --> 01:11:47,599
Speaker 1: then I went back to the beginning and now I'm

1180
01:11:47,640 --> 01:11:50,320
Speaker 1: reading it from the beginning as as books are frequently read,

1181
01:11:50,720 --> 01:11:52,880
Speaker 1: and I love it, and um, yeah, if you're interested

1182
01:11:52,880 --> 01:12:00,599
Speaker 1: in Jewish anarchism, check it out. By everyone Cool People

1183
01:12:00,720 --> 01:12:03,439
Speaker 1: Who Did Cool Stuff is a production of cool Zone Media.

1184
01:12:03,840 --> 01:12:06,639
Speaker 1: Or more podcasts on cool zone Media, visit our website

1185
01:12:06,720 --> 01:12:09,280
Speaker 1: cool zone media dot com, or check us out on

1186
01:12:09,320 --> 01:12:12,240
Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

1187
01:12:12,280 --> 01:12:13,320
Speaker 1: get your podcasts.