WEBVTT - Crypto Bankruptcies Pile Up After FTX’s Collapse

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<v Speaker 1>This is Bloomberg Crypto, a daily Bloomberg I Heard podcast,

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<v Speaker 1>and I'm Stacy Marie Ishmael, Managing editor of Crypto for

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<v Speaker 1>Bloomberg News. It's Thursday, December one. If there's one group

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<v Speaker 1>of people in crypto who are booked and busy this year,

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<v Speaker 1>it's bankruptcy loyals. In two alone, we've seen bankruptcy filings

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<v Speaker 1>from the hedge fund, Three Arrows Capital, the lenders Celsius,

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<v Speaker 1>the broker Voyage of Digital, and even more recently Sam

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<v Speaker 1>Bankman Freeds ft X Ecosystem and another crypto lender known

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<v Speaker 1>as Block five. According to court documents, the various parts

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<v Speaker 1>of f t X could have more than a million creditors,

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<v Speaker 1>people or entities who owed money in some way, and

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<v Speaker 1>ft X had even committed to buying the assets of

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<v Speaker 1>Here's Your Digital in an auction, which of course is

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<v Speaker 1>no longer possible. In other words, as with the Three

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<v Speaker 1>Hours bankruptcy, which arguably precipitated the chaos at Celsius and Voyage,

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<v Speaker 1>the fall of FTX is having a similar domino effect.

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<v Speaker 1>Here to break down the latest bankruptcy developments is Bloomberg

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<v Speaker 1>reporta and editor Jeremy Hill at some point, one of

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<v Speaker 1>these bankruptcy judges will have to be the unlucky first

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<v Speaker 1>to say money is this, cryptocurrency is money or vice versa,

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<v Speaker 1>and that will have some bearing on how crypto is

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<v Speaker 1>treated in future bankruptcy cases. Jeremy, welcome back to the podcast.

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<v Speaker 1>Why don't you reintroduce yourself to our audience, right, I'm

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<v Speaker 1>Jeremy Hill. I'm a reporter and editor on the distress

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<v Speaker 1>set and bankruptcy team here at Bloomberg News, and lately

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<v Speaker 1>I've been writing a lot about crypto possible, more than

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<v Speaker 1>you were expecting, maybe a little bit more. Now we've

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<v Speaker 1>had you on the show before when there were some

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<v Speaker 1>previous bankruptcies, it seems like there's been way more than

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<v Speaker 1>than we had. I mean, I don't normally associate like

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<v Speaker 1>distress debts stuff with having to work on weekends, but

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<v Speaker 1>you know, welcome, welcome to crypto. What have been some

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<v Speaker 1>of the things that have been keeping you busy? Well, yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>you referenced are earlier bankruptcies. Those were Voyager and Celsius.

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<v Speaker 1>These are names that were like pretty big for what

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<v Speaker 1>they were, and they were super notable because they were

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<v Speaker 1>some of the first real big crypto lending company collapses.

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<v Speaker 1>But just a couple of weeks ago, we got the

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<v Speaker 1>big one, the really big one perhaps FTX Sam Bankman

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<v Speaker 1>Freed's Crypto Empire filed for Chapter eleven bankruptcy under chaotic circumstances.

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<v Speaker 1>And as someone who's been covering federal insolvency court for

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<v Speaker 1>a few years, I can tell you I have never

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<v Speaker 1>seen a filing as chaotic as this. No one was ready,

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<v Speaker 1>nothing was there now, Okay, I love the idea of

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<v Speaker 1>a court filing being chaale, Can you tell us a

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<v Speaker 1>little bit more which as you as you are reported,

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<v Speaker 1>who's who reads these literally for your job is going

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<v Speaker 1>through and reading this? What were some of the things

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<v Speaker 1>that jumped out for you? Well, the big thing was

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<v Speaker 1>the lack of information. Right. Usually when a company files

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<v Speaker 1>for bankruptcy, they come prepared with a slate of what

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<v Speaker 1>we call first emotions. This is really boring stuff. These

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<v Speaker 1>are requests made to a federal judge in the US

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<v Speaker 1>to continue doing things like pay employees, keep paying your

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<v Speaker 1>insurance companies, keep paying utilities so that you can keep

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<v Speaker 1>the lights on in the office. These are typically lined

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<v Speaker 1>up a couple of weeks in advance because it's just

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<v Speaker 1>like a lot of lawyering to do, you have to

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<v Speaker 1>write the papers and make sure that everything is spelled right.

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<v Speaker 1>When FTX filed, it was just the petition, right. They

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<v Speaker 1>filled out this form that says we are ft X

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<v Speaker 1>and one hundred related entities. We have somewhere between ten

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<v Speaker 1>billion and fifty billion dollars. It's really clear. There's literally

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<v Speaker 1>a checkbox, it's the largest one on the sheet that

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<v Speaker 1>says ten billion to fifty billion dollars assets and the

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<v Speaker 1>same for liabilities. That's all we had for several hours,

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<v Speaker 1>and then hours turned into days, So you know, Jeremy,

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<v Speaker 1>one of the weirder parts about this filing, speaking of Enron,

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<v Speaker 1>was something that John j. Ray the Third himself said. Right. So,

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<v Speaker 1>John J. Ray the Third, the new CEO of fd X,

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<v Speaker 1>he opens his first day declaration, the statement designed to

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<v Speaker 1>introduce the judge to the case, by saying, never in

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<v Speaker 1>my career have I seen such a complete failure of

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<v Speaker 1>corporate controls and such a complete lack of trustworthy financial information.

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<v Speaker 1>The important thing to underscores that this is the dude

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<v Speaker 1>who oversaw the liquidation of Enron, the massive accounting scandal

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<v Speaker 1>where most everything was made up and there were a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of lies. Just because this is not a video podcast,

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<v Speaker 1>I need you alls understand that Jeremy was just like

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<v Speaker 1>not even reading that quote off of anything. It was

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<v Speaker 1>just seared into his brain from the weirdness of it all,

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<v Speaker 1>that was terrific. Among the other bunkers, things that we've

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<v Speaker 1>discussed as it relates to this case is like, what

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<v Speaker 1>is going on with the hidden creditors. There are these

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<v Speaker 1>laws in Europe related to customer privacy on the Internet.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't understand them fully, but a big part of

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<v Speaker 1>the argument here is ft X as customers all over

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<v Speaker 1>the world, and if they were to disclose the names

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<v Speaker 1>of these big customers, if they're in Europe, they might

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<v Speaker 1>be violating laws somewhere else. So the judge said the

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<v Speaker 1>very first hearing, he's sort of hand waved and went

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<v Speaker 1>that sounds complicated. Will revisit that. For now, you don't

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<v Speaker 1>have to list out your creditors, but there's a big

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<v Speaker 1>presumption of transparency in US bankruptcy court. So we'll be

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<v Speaker 1>back on December six, back in the Delaware courtroom, where

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<v Speaker 1>an arm of the Justice Department is expected to argue

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<v Speaker 1>that the creditor list should be made public. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>maybe there'll be some sort of settlement where they redact

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<v Speaker 1>like physical addresses or something. Now this reminds me of

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<v Speaker 1>I think it was early October when Celsia his creditor

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<v Speaker 1>list was made public, and it was like pages and

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<v Speaker 1>pages and pages, and there's tens of thousands of pages

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<v Speaker 1>of essentially people's names and their addresses and I think

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<v Speaker 1>their account balances. And there was a sort of a

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<v Speaker 1>similar outcry in some circles about about privacy. Usually if

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<v Speaker 1>a company goes bust, so like let's say pick random

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<v Speaker 1>company that I'm not going to name because I don't

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<v Speaker 1>want get sued for defamation. If large company goes bust

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<v Speaker 1>and I am a customer, does my name somehow end

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<v Speaker 1>up in court? Like why is it that these customers

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<v Speaker 1>or these people are ending up there? Is it because

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<v Speaker 1>they're also creditors? That's pretty much it. In a normal situation,

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<v Speaker 1>you might end up with your information out there if

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<v Speaker 1>you file a claim, like if you're able to refund

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<v Speaker 1>or something, but just being a customer of a bankrupt

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<v Speaker 1>company usually doesn't put any of your information at risk

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<v Speaker 1>of being exposed. But in this case, the customers ended

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<v Speaker 1>up being the creditors. And since this whole process is

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<v Speaker 1>about finding a way to uh figure out a fair

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<v Speaker 1>repayment plan for creditors, you necessarily have to turn over

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<v Speaker 1>some information. That's just a part of the deal. Those

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<v Speaker 1>customers slash creditors represents billions of dollars in potential claims. Right, Like,

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<v Speaker 1>this is as large as you say, this is a

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<v Speaker 1>large bankruptcy. This is extremely large. I mean, we don't

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<v Speaker 1>even to my knowledge, have a complete list of or

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<v Speaker 1>a complete accounting of the number of customers. I have

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<v Speaker 1>seen the lawyers say possibly more than a million. I've

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<v Speaker 1>seen millions. I've seen hundreds of thousands. This thing is

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<v Speaker 1>such a mess. It's unclear exactly how many people were

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<v Speaker 1>talking about here, right, And going back to the incredibly

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<v Speaker 1>well named John j Ray, the third one of the

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<v Speaker 1>things he said is he couldn't even figure out who

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<v Speaker 1>was on payroll. Yes, it was difficult to determine how

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<v Speaker 1>many employees there were, what the terms of their employment were,

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<v Speaker 1>where they were located. Boy, Yeah, as you say, not

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of information. We'll be right back with more

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<v Speaker 1>from Bloomberg Reports and bankruptcy expert Jeremy Hill. Now you

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<v Speaker 1>mentioned Celsius and Voyager at the top. There's been this

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<v Speaker 1>sort of weird ripple effect of the f t X

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<v Speaker 1>bankruptcy in which they were also trying to rescue the

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<v Speaker 1>assets of Voyager at one point. What happened there well

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<v Speaker 1>that that's a really sad story for Voyager customers, because

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<v Speaker 1>the lawyers did a pretty good job of figuring out

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<v Speaker 1>some sort of a plan. The plan involved selling the

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<v Speaker 1>company and its assets to sam Bank and free It's

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<v Speaker 1>f t X. They seem to hold out hope for

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<v Speaker 1>a while when reports of ft X is insolvency were

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<v Speaker 1>coming out. The company Voyager didn't say much about whether

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<v Speaker 1>the sale would still go forward. But now they've confirmed

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<v Speaker 1>that there's no deal with f t X, so they've

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<v Speaker 1>sort of reopened the sale process. We know that a

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<v Speaker 1>company called Cross Tower, which I understand operates a crypto exchange,

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<v Speaker 1>is considering bidding once more for Voyager as well. If

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<v Speaker 1>there was another company called Wave Financial. Nothings final yet,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm sure there are lots of late night phone calls

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<v Speaker 1>going on right now, so many late night phone calls,

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<v Speaker 1>so many lawyers, so many legal fees. And then just

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<v Speaker 1>in the past couple of weeks, we've also seen Block five,

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<v Speaker 1>which is another crypto lender file for bankruptcy. One of

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<v Speaker 1>the things about the Block five filing that I thought

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<v Speaker 1>was interesting is that they tried to position themselves as

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<v Speaker 1>being like the opposite of ft X in some ways.

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<v Speaker 1>They certainly did yes, and that that first day statements

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<v Speaker 1>similar to the one made by the new CEO of

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<v Speaker 1>ft X. We had an advisor for Block five who

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<v Speaker 1>was recently brought in laying out, well, okay, we're bankrupt

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<v Speaker 1>now because f t X went bust. That's a problem

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<v Speaker 1>because they're supposed to rescue us. But rest assured we

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<v Speaker 1>did not behave the way that they behave. We have

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<v Speaker 1>great corporate governance, we have internal controls that monitor our spending,

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<v Speaker 1>and we are super prepared. In fact, I mean, it

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<v Speaker 1>wasn't all bluster. They filed a Chapter eleven plan of

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<v Speaker 1>reorgan zation on the very first day of the case.

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<v Speaker 1>I tried to read that document. It's very hard to

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<v Speaker 1>understand and actually Block fives in court right now as

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<v Speaker 1>we're recording this, presenting uh these first day motions to

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<v Speaker 1>the judge and explaining where the case will go from here,

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<v Speaker 1>it does seem much more controlled than f t X.

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<v Speaker 1>One thing about Block five and this advisor statement and

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<v Speaker 1>about like we were doing everything right. They owe the

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<v Speaker 1>sec money. That's true. Yes, there's a there's a settlement

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<v Speaker 1>thirty million dollars still to the Securities and Exchange Commission

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<v Speaker 1>for being pretty much like naughty. At one point they

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<v Speaker 1>had to pay a hundred million dollars in penalties originally

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<v Speaker 1>that that that's my general understanding. But they did engage

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<v Speaker 1>with the sec They were together in a room. They

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<v Speaker 1>were not hiding on some islands somewhere. There's a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of people hiding on islands right now, and definitely some

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<v Speaker 1>people hiding in places that made islands in Dubai. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>you know who you are. Call us just one, I guess.

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<v Speaker 1>Final set of questions, because you alluded to the fact

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<v Speaker 1>that know so much about crypto is unusual. Are there

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<v Speaker 1>any legal precedents that are either being set here that

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<v Speaker 1>are potentially going to be set here that may affect

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<v Speaker 1>other elements of bankruptcy in the US. Here's something that

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<v Speaker 1>I find very interesting in Block five's first day papers,

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<v Speaker 1>buried in a what's called a motion for continued use

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<v Speaker 1>of Cash Management systems Boring, there's a there's a line

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<v Speaker 1>in there that says, roughly in paraphrasing, cryptocurrency is not money,

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<v Speaker 1>and no US court or regulatory agency has said it

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<v Speaker 1>is money. It's just something that's important because bankruptcy rules

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<v Speaker 1>sometimes reference quote money and how it is to be handled,

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<v Speaker 1>and so at some point one of these bankruptcy judges

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<v Speaker 1>will have to be the unlucky first to say money

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<v Speaker 1>is this cryptocurrency is money or vice versa, and that

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<v Speaker 1>will have some bearing on how crypto is treated in

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<v Speaker 1>future bankruptcy cases. Huge I guess so well, Jeremy. It

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<v Speaker 1>is always a pleasure. Thank you for making me feel

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<v Speaker 1>like I understand the low slightly better. Thank you for

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<v Speaker 1>having me. You can find more of Jeremy's reporting on

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<v Speaker 1>the Bloomberg Terminal and on Bloomberg dot com, and you

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<v Speaker 1>can check out our twice weekly newsletter, which is also

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<v Speaker 1>called Bloomberg cryptom. This is Bloomberg Crypto, a daily podcast

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<v Speaker 1>The supervising producer of Bloomberg Crypto is Vicky very Galina.

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