WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 148 0:00:01.760 --> 0:00:02.880 Al Zone Media. 0:00:03.560 --> 0:00:05.960 Hey everybody, Robert Evans here and I wanted to let 0:00:06.040 --> 0:00:09.639 you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode 0:00:09.800 --> 0:00:12.959 of the week that just happened is here in one 0:00:13.039 --> 0:00:16.799 convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 0:00:16.840 --> 0:00:19.280 listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 0:00:19.280 --> 0:00:21.239 you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:21.280 --> 0:00:23.000 there's going to be nothing new here for you, but 0:00:23.360 --> 0:00:25.320 you can make your own decisions. 0:00:28.360 --> 0:00:29.240 It could happen here. 0:00:29.320 --> 0:00:32.160 It's the podcast where things happen and you do something 0:00:32.240 --> 0:00:35.880 about it. I'm your host, Via Wong, and we have 0:00:36.080 --> 0:00:38.600 done you know, okay, over the course of this we 0:00:38.640 --> 0:00:40.680 have done so many Union episodes that I lost count 0:00:40.720 --> 0:00:42.760 a year ago, two years ago, I don't even know. 0:00:43.080 --> 0:00:44.639 I lost count at the dawn of time of how 0:00:44.640 --> 0:00:45.600 many of these we've done. 0:00:46.040 --> 0:00:49.040 But something I think some of you probably know this, 0:00:49.680 --> 0:00:52.640 but a lot of you don't, is that many unions 0:00:52.680 --> 0:00:55.480 have their own unions for the people who to do 0:00:55.520 --> 0:00:57.800 staff work, to do sort of a number of other things, 0:00:57.920 --> 0:01:03.920 and sometimes unions us their own unions, and this unbelievably sucks. 0:01:03.920 --> 0:01:06.120 And to talk about an instance of this happening that 0:01:06.200 --> 0:01:09.240 is happening right now, I am talking with Alex Chan, 0:01:09.319 --> 0:01:12.880 who is an organizer for the UAW, who is I 0:01:12.880 --> 0:01:13.240 don't know what. 0:01:13.280 --> 0:01:13.960 Technical term is. 0:01:14.000 --> 0:01:18.000 I'm going to describe it non legally bindingly as being purged. 0:01:18.040 --> 0:01:21.800 For doing organizing. But yeah, Alex, welcome to the show. 0:01:22.680 --> 0:01:25.720 Hi, it's nice to be here. I think being purged 0:01:25.840 --> 0:01:27.240 is a great way to describe it. 0:01:28.080 --> 0:01:31.319 Yeah, the tentative title for this is the UAW Staff Purge, 0:01:31.480 --> 0:01:33.560 So it's not great. 0:01:34.200 --> 0:01:35.640 So why don't we start off. 0:01:35.680 --> 0:01:39.160 I've given a very very brief sort of description of 0:01:39.480 --> 0:01:41.440 what a staff union is, but can you talk a 0:01:41.440 --> 0:01:44.800 bit more broadly about what a staff union is, what 0:01:44.880 --> 0:01:47.199 it does, and why you all are sort of trying 0:01:47.240 --> 0:01:48.120 to organize one. 0:01:48.560 --> 0:01:52.320 Of course, So in terms of staff unions, yeah, it's 0:01:52.360 --> 0:01:55.440 definitely an interesting phenomenon for people who are less familiar 0:01:55.480 --> 0:01:58.640 with the labor movement. But when unions have a lot 0:01:58.640 --> 0:02:02.280 of staff, sometimes those also need a union to make 0:02:02.320 --> 0:02:05.560 sure that they are treated fairly in the workplace. Coincidentally, 0:02:05.600 --> 0:02:08.079 this year, there have been a lot of incidents that 0:02:08.160 --> 0:02:12.919 have shown why staff unions are happening in the first place. 0:02:13.560 --> 0:02:18.160 And so with my union, we are called UAW Staff United. 0:02:18.680 --> 0:02:22.519 We are part of Region nine A of the UAW. 0:02:22.840 --> 0:02:25.919 UAW is split into a lot of geographic regions, and 0:02:26.320 --> 0:02:32.680 nine A covers New York and New England, including Maine, Massachusetts, Connecticut, 0:02:33.000 --> 0:02:37.760 New Hampshire, Vermont, not New York State. New York State 0:02:37.840 --> 0:02:41.760 is covered by Region nine. So we are a bunch 0:02:41.840 --> 0:02:46.880 of temporary organizers and local staff that are organizing for 0:02:47.760 --> 0:02:54.239 a lot of things, among them wages, workload, job security, healthcare, 0:02:54.760 --> 0:02:56.840 and so on so forth, very normal things that you 0:02:56.840 --> 0:02:58.840 would actually see in a lot of the contracts that 0:02:58.880 --> 0:03:03.200 we help fight for, in the shops that we work 0:03:03.280 --> 0:03:05.880 for and organize, and the units that we help support. 0:03:07.000 --> 0:03:09.280 So UAW Staff United otherwise known as. 0:03:09.200 --> 0:03:13.280 Yuzu like the fruit. Oh that's fun, No, it's cute, right. 0:03:13.360 --> 0:03:17.079 We really love the user imagery a lot. We were 0:03:17.160 --> 0:03:21.560 formed in twenty twenty three, first went public in the spring. 0:03:22.320 --> 0:03:25.520 I joined the unit in the summer, but I was 0:03:25.600 --> 0:03:28.040 just kind of peripherally around and organizing with a lot 0:03:28.040 --> 0:03:31.480 of these folks before they went public in the spring. 0:03:31.960 --> 0:03:35.560 Got recognized slowly and then slowly came to the bargaining 0:03:35.560 --> 0:03:38.560 table in August, and so at this point we have 0:03:38.680 --> 0:03:41.440 been at the bargaining table for over a year and 0:03:41.480 --> 0:03:44.440 we still do not have a contract. Normally, in most 0:03:44.440 --> 0:03:47.800 shops that you would see organizing, that would be cause 0:03:47.880 --> 0:03:50.800 for escalation, and so that is actually part of what 0:03:50.880 --> 0:03:54.160 we are doing here. After hitting one full year bargaining, 0:03:54.160 --> 0:03:57.520 we are still very stuck on items such as wages, 0:03:58.080 --> 0:04:01.480 job security, yep, all the very normal things that we 0:04:01.520 --> 0:04:04.480 can see in units that we help support and bargain for. 0:04:05.440 --> 0:04:09.120 And so the situation that we're facing is slightly more 0:04:09.160 --> 0:04:13.680 complicated because of many other internal things that For example, 0:04:14.200 --> 0:04:18.159 UAW has another staff union it is called Staff Council, 0:04:18.760 --> 0:04:22.760 and that covers more regions of UAW rather than nine A. 0:04:23.400 --> 0:04:29.000 It also includes people who are our direct supervisors. On paper, 0:04:29.320 --> 0:04:32.960 those people are called lead organizers and they do make 0:04:33.000 --> 0:04:37.360 low six figures and yes they are our direct supervisors. 0:04:37.400 --> 0:04:40.960 So they are a managerial union and they are what 0:04:41.200 --> 0:04:44.080 some people may call a business union, you know, works 0:04:44.120 --> 0:04:47.240 closely with management to secure a good deal, that kind 0:04:47.279 --> 0:04:50.560 of thing. It's never really been known to agitate in 0:04:50.640 --> 0:04:54.039 a contract, and that is partially one reason why UZU 0:04:54.200 --> 0:04:58.279 was formed, because we knew that some agitation needed to 0:04:58.320 --> 0:05:01.520 happen in order to secure actually good treatment for people 0:05:01.520 --> 0:05:05.520 in our position, our position meaning temp and local staff. 0:05:06.160 --> 0:05:08.760 Now I keep saying temp staff, right, is that the 0:05:09.080 --> 0:05:09.720 next question? 0:05:10.320 --> 0:05:10.560 Yeah? 0:05:10.640 --> 0:05:12.600 Yeah, I am so good, I'm one step ahead. 0:05:13.040 --> 0:05:15.520 Yeah, I want to talk about both a the way 0:05:15.560 --> 0:05:18.600 your contracts work, and be what the thing you're actually 0:05:18.640 --> 0:05:21.800 doing is, because I'm not sure, I'm not sure people 0:05:21.839 --> 0:05:25.839 are one hundred percent familiar with what specifically you do 0:05:26.160 --> 0:05:27.960 and what a what a sort of like staff you 0:05:27.960 --> 0:05:31.240 need organizer does and the difference between you and the 0:05:31.240 --> 0:05:34.080 people that are sort of the organizer layer above you 0:05:34.240 --> 0:05:35.240 is Yeah. 0:05:35.240 --> 0:05:39.920 Absolutely, So that has to go a little bit into 0:05:40.040 --> 0:05:42.800 how we are hired. And that's why I kept saying 0:05:42.960 --> 0:05:46.920 temp staff and local staff. Yeah, our unit is formed 0:05:46.920 --> 0:05:51.200 somewhat on our pay structure, and so temp organizers are 0:05:51.279 --> 0:05:55.640 hired by the international or the region, and local staff 0:05:55.640 --> 0:05:58.720 are hired by the locals, which is kind of a 0:05:58.760 --> 0:06:02.320 sub unit of the regions and how different unions are organized. 0:06:02.360 --> 0:06:05.640 There could be multiple units in one local, a local 0:06:05.680 --> 0:06:09.960 may hire a staffer, but that staffer could be subsidized 0:06:09.960 --> 0:06:12.880 by the international, and that is kind of what our 0:06:13.000 --> 0:06:17.720 uniformation is like, where funding comes from the international and 0:06:18.360 --> 0:06:23.360 this layer of people does the most. In New organizing, 0:06:23.640 --> 0:06:28.240 so supporting new shops that form, new campaigns, that are 0:06:28.320 --> 0:06:32.000 organizing new unions that are just forming and need to 0:06:32.279 --> 0:06:36.720 secure an election or a first contract. Some of our 0:06:36.760 --> 0:06:39.520 colleagues go a little bit further into the stage because 0:06:39.560 --> 0:06:44.680 of their local staff status where they're supporting contract renewals 0:06:44.800 --> 0:06:47.920 or bargaining around the second stage. But a lot of 0:06:47.920 --> 0:06:51.240 these has to do with on the ground, worker to worker, 0:06:51.640 --> 0:06:55.440 peer to peer organizing, supporting them and many different ways, 0:06:55.440 --> 0:07:02.920 including data work, including just resources. Think of how the 0:07:02.960 --> 0:07:06.839 parent union might be supporting a new shop. We are 0:07:06.920 --> 0:07:09.600 kind of the resources that are supporting the new shop 0:07:09.600 --> 0:07:12.880 that can help direct institutional knowledge, that can help direct 0:07:13.080 --> 0:07:17.600 logistical or legal information like how or what is necessary 0:07:17.720 --> 0:07:21.080 for an election or a petition, that kind of stuff. 0:07:21.640 --> 0:07:24.200 And yeah, it's a lot of different tasks and that's 0:07:24.240 --> 0:07:26.120 why for a lot of us, our job description is 0:07:26.440 --> 0:07:28.840 I'm doing air quotes here a flexible forty. 0:07:28.600 --> 0:07:31.200 Hour work week, Jess Christ. 0:07:32.480 --> 0:07:35.200 And of course that usually means a lot more than 0:07:35.200 --> 0:07:39.840 that when campaigns ramp up, and so you know, there 0:07:39.880 --> 0:07:41.880 are a lot of different models on how to combat that, 0:07:42.040 --> 0:07:45.679 but I'll get into that a bit later. So going 0:07:45.720 --> 0:07:50.000 back to the difference between us and perhaps our direct supervisors. 0:07:50.000 --> 0:07:54.240 Our direct supervisors may be tasked with monitoring the status 0:07:54.320 --> 0:07:56.360 of a lot of different campaigns at the same time, 0:07:57.120 --> 0:08:01.520 and we might be assigned to one or two or 0:08:01.560 --> 0:08:06.400 three at a time to work very very directly with 0:08:06.520 --> 0:08:10.720 the organizers and the new workers. Of course, this looks 0:08:10.760 --> 0:08:14.680 slightly different across different locals or different campaigns can be 0:08:14.720 --> 0:08:18.880 adjusted depending on the shop's needs. But our supervisors, who 0:08:18.920 --> 0:08:22.000 are the leads, will be handling a lot of different 0:08:22.000 --> 0:08:24.840 campaigns at the same time and just like kind of 0:08:24.880 --> 0:08:27.880 overseeing that progress and giving the okay for the next 0:08:27.920 --> 0:08:32.240 stage or or whatsoever. So I wanted to go back 0:08:32.280 --> 0:08:35.960 a little bit to why we are called temp organizers. 0:08:36.320 --> 0:08:40.840 Yeah, this is nuts. Well, I'm so angry that I 0:08:40.960 --> 0:08:41.960 forgat about this. 0:08:43.880 --> 0:08:45.560 So do you know what a temp organizer is? 0:08:46.240 --> 0:08:48.400 Yeah, this is actually weird. So I have friends who 0:08:48.480 --> 0:08:51.080 are staff organizers for other unions that it doesn't work 0:08:51.120 --> 0:08:54.680 like this. So yeah, I'm going to let you explain it, 0:08:54.720 --> 0:08:55.480 because I. 0:08:55.679 --> 0:08:58.760 Mean, do let me know about those in another Yeah, 0:08:58.840 --> 0:09:03.280 but for temp organizers in UAW, this is a holdover 0:09:03.440 --> 0:09:08.480 from the kind of older model of organizing where theoretically 0:09:08.520 --> 0:09:11.320 a worker might come off the shop floor for six 0:09:11.360 --> 0:09:13.880 months nine months to do union work and then go 0:09:13.960 --> 0:09:16.840 back to the shop floor when that concludes, so that 0:09:16.880 --> 0:09:20.240 the job would remain open for them. So temporary, like 0:09:20.280 --> 0:09:22.720 the nature is temporary. Someone is coming off to do 0:09:22.880 --> 0:09:26.640 union work, and then you know, sometimes it's even part time, right, 0:09:26.640 --> 0:09:29.000 sometimes it's even part time, and the worker never stops 0:09:29.040 --> 0:09:32.480 working at their original job. But nowadays the model doesn't 0:09:32.480 --> 0:09:36.079 look like that anymore, right because, especially in say higher 0:09:36.200 --> 0:09:40.160 ed shops, people graduate out of their graduate union jobs. 0:09:40.600 --> 0:09:44.240 People may not have their reappointment if they are an 0:09:44.320 --> 0:09:48.400 adjunct or contract faculty. And then a lot of our 0:09:48.600 --> 0:09:50.920 unit members u zoom meaning a lot of our yu 0:09:50.960 --> 0:09:53.719 zoo members come out of a shop that is UAW 0:09:54.200 --> 0:09:57.040 whether that means they're legal services or museum workers or 0:09:57.120 --> 0:10:00.920 higher ed, but it is less common nowadays to have 0:10:01.000 --> 0:10:06.000 a job to return to. However, the model remains the 0:10:06.080 --> 0:10:10.120 same in that the temporary organizer job has three month 0:10:10.200 --> 0:10:13.520 renewals and a three year cap. Every three months our 0:10:13.559 --> 0:10:17.120 contract is renewed, and if we hit three years on 0:10:17.160 --> 0:10:22.120 this job, we are no longer hired. Theoretically, you could 0:10:22.160 --> 0:10:26.240 be hired to another job internally, but there's no pipeline, 0:10:26.720 --> 0:10:30.480 there is no internal movement that way, you would have 0:10:30.559 --> 0:10:34.280 to apply to the job like a regular other job 0:10:34.400 --> 0:10:37.360 that is a more full term job, or you just 0:10:37.480 --> 0:10:40.880 kind of like quote unquote like age out the system 0:10:41.000 --> 0:10:43.880 and you're just no longer an organizer. You no longer 0:10:43.880 --> 0:10:48.160 have a job. And so this has manifested in a 0:10:48.200 --> 0:10:49.920 lot of different ways that a lot of my colleagues 0:10:49.960 --> 0:10:54.240 that have gotten tired or burnt out and have decided 0:10:54.240 --> 0:10:56.319 to leave before they're three years or leave at their 0:10:56.320 --> 0:10:59.520 three years of their own will. There are folks that 0:11:00.200 --> 0:11:03.720 have left way earlier than their three years as well 0:11:03.760 --> 0:11:08.760 to pursue other opportunities. YUZU at any given time has 0:11:08.800 --> 0:11:11.880 about forty to fifty members and that is our nine 0:11:11.880 --> 0:11:16.360 a unit. Again, one thing that we have come to 0:11:16.640 --> 0:11:20.559 find out is that in the last five years of 0:11:20.600 --> 0:11:26.320 this temp organizer model, only three people who have hit 0:11:26.360 --> 0:11:30.840 their three year cap have managed to attain full term 0:11:30.920 --> 0:11:36.439 jobs in the UAW afterward Cheese. And then there is me, who, 0:11:37.120 --> 0:11:41.000 again within the last five years, is the only person 0:11:41.720 --> 0:11:44.840 to have been not renewed before their three year term, 0:11:45.200 --> 0:11:49.120 very unceremoniously as well as in the middle of very 0:11:49.200 --> 0:11:53.640 active campaigns. That brings us to another piece of context, 0:11:53.720 --> 0:11:56.199 and the reason why I keep saying five years is 0:11:56.320 --> 0:11:59.480 because in twenty eighteen there was a first iteration of 0:11:59.520 --> 0:12:03.280 the Yuzu. There was a first attempt to forming this 0:12:03.600 --> 0:12:06.880 staff union of temp and local staff. Of course it 0:12:06.920 --> 0:12:10.960 was created by different people. But what happened then, especially 0:12:11.000 --> 0:12:14.040 under the Administrative Caucus when it was before the reform 0:12:14.120 --> 0:12:18.160 leadership septed in, is that everyone was just fired Jesus, Yeah, 0:12:18.240 --> 0:12:21.080 everyone was just let go. And there are people still 0:12:21.080 --> 0:12:23.920 around organizing these days in other positions or in other 0:12:23.960 --> 0:12:27.520 workplaces that you have talked to us about it, and 0:12:27.600 --> 0:12:30.000 there are people that are working in user now that 0:12:30.520 --> 0:12:33.840 had friends or were peripheral to that happening. So we 0:12:33.880 --> 0:12:37.319 are all very familiar with how non renewal is a 0:12:37.480 --> 0:12:42.160 very retaliatory practice used in UAW in the past, or 0:12:42.600 --> 0:12:45.400 we thought was in the past, because we were so 0:12:45.480 --> 0:12:48.520 excited to have this reform leadership come in and now 0:12:48.559 --> 0:12:51.320 we are finding out that it is still a tool 0:12:51.400 --> 0:12:56.360 that is consistent. And so when we are excited that 0:12:56.400 --> 0:13:00.000 there is democratic reform, especially with one member, one vote, 0:13:00.360 --> 0:13:06.160 which was extremely extremely exciting to see, we also need 0:13:06.200 --> 0:13:07.920 to point out that there are a lot of different 0:13:07.960 --> 0:13:12.560 places here that still need to change, especially in how 0:13:12.760 --> 0:13:14.280 the union treats its own staff. 0:13:15.360 --> 0:13:17.319 Yeah, and unfortunately we need to go to ads. We'll 0:13:17.400 --> 0:13:19.520 come back. I want to circle back around and talk 0:13:19.520 --> 0:13:22.320 a bit more about the ways of the UAW is 0:13:22.640 --> 0:13:27.319 acting like a fairly conventional boss trying to break a union. 0:13:38.600 --> 0:13:44.040 And we are back. So there's something really interesting. I 0:13:44.040 --> 0:13:46.760 mean I say interesting, it's something sort of terrible about 0:13:46.760 --> 0:13:49.400 the way that the UAW is relying on effectively a 0:13:49.480 --> 0:13:54.400 casualized workforce because because you're dealing with these constant renewals, 0:13:54.440 --> 0:13:57.400 which are an incredible sort of pressure leverage because it 0:13:57.400 --> 0:14:00.720 means you don't have job security. It feels like the 0:14:00.720 --> 0:14:03.800 way Amazon works where they're just like trying intentionally instead 0:14:03.800 --> 0:14:06.040 of trying to retain people, they're just trying to churn 0:14:06.520 --> 0:14:09.199 through as many organizers as possible because like the more 0:14:09.240 --> 0:14:11.920 seniority people have and the more experience they have, the 0:14:12.000 --> 0:14:14.640 harder it is to like just completely underpay them. 0:14:15.080 --> 0:14:15.280 Yeah. 0:14:15.320 --> 0:14:17.120 The keyword in here is flexibility. 0:14:17.800 --> 0:14:20.800 Yeah, and it seems like, also on an institutional level, 0:14:20.840 --> 0:14:24.400 a terrible idea because you know, you're training a bunch 0:14:24.400 --> 0:14:28.640 of organizers and then the moment that they're you know, 0:14:28.680 --> 0:14:30.600 the moment they have a bunch of experience, you're just 0:14:30.640 --> 0:14:32.600 casting them into the wind and then hiring the less 0:14:32.600 --> 0:14:33.400 experienced person. 0:14:33.520 --> 0:14:36.320 It's like you bring up a great point. Actually, something 0:14:36.320 --> 0:14:37.960 that I want to touch on is end bargaining. We 0:14:38.000 --> 0:14:41.400 have asked for training and we have not been met 0:14:41.400 --> 0:14:43.640 with a satisfactory answer. People are not trained. Oh my 0:14:43.680 --> 0:14:46.040 god before they take on this position. But yes, you're 0:14:46.080 --> 0:14:49.520 absolutely correct with the institutional knowledge aspect. The campaigns that 0:14:49.560 --> 0:14:52.440 I'm working on, the organizing committees are real pissed that 0:14:52.480 --> 0:14:54.720 I have been suddenly disappeared, And I want to highlight 0:14:54.800 --> 0:14:58.400 something that one organizer brought up is that for all 0:14:58.400 --> 0:15:01.200 the talk of us being one big union, how we 0:15:01.320 --> 0:15:03.640 are the union, how we have a democratic saying in 0:15:03.640 --> 0:15:06.280 this process, it's very weird that someone higher up in 0:15:06.360 --> 0:15:08.840 the union can just make one of our members disappear. 0:15:09.680 --> 0:15:13.760 And that is in reference to my unceremonious departure, of course, 0:15:13.920 --> 0:15:17.480 and the points that we, as you you really want 0:15:17.520 --> 0:15:20.760 to highlight and emphasize is that we really want to 0:15:21.520 --> 0:15:24.240 just hold UAW to the values that it has espoused, 0:15:25.440 --> 0:15:30.120 ending tiers, job security for workers, fair wages, like I 0:15:30.160 --> 0:15:33.400 said in bargaining, we had asked for training and that 0:15:33.480 --> 0:15:36.840 has not gone very well. UW is refusing to bargain 0:15:36.840 --> 0:15:40.680 over free speech and continuity representation, which refers to the 0:15:40.720 --> 0:15:43.840 hypothetical scenario if Region nine A were to be absorbed 0:15:43.840 --> 0:15:46.680 somewhere else the right for user to still exist, and 0:15:46.720 --> 0:15:50.480 they refuse to bargain over that we are stuck in 0:15:50.600 --> 0:15:56.960 wages at somewhere around three percent per year of four years. Yeah, 0:15:57.000 --> 0:16:01.600 it's not great, and there's been a lot of chaos 0:16:01.640 --> 0:16:04.320 behind the scenes that it is implied to be a 0:16:04.360 --> 0:16:07.640 bad thing to let the members know about the members 0:16:07.640 --> 0:16:10.480 that we work with and organize with. But to a 0:16:10.520 --> 0:16:13.760 certain point things boil over, and especially in the case 0:16:13.760 --> 0:16:18.320 where I am suddenly not renewed, it is really important 0:16:18.400 --> 0:16:22.720 in our view that our members know what is happening. Yeah, 0:16:22.880 --> 0:16:25.560 that the members know what this is about, because they 0:16:25.640 --> 0:16:29.720 get the news landed on them after our social media 0:16:29.720 --> 0:16:32.400 posts come out. Because I am told not to inform 0:16:32.440 --> 0:16:37.920 the organizers myself, and so the organizers had to hear 0:16:37.960 --> 0:16:40.400 about it from my supervisors about a week later with 0:16:40.480 --> 0:16:45.560 no details. My non renewal was without cause, without justification, 0:16:45.640 --> 0:16:47.760 without reason. They did not give me an answer to 0:16:47.800 --> 0:16:52.120 my face. And then as Yuzu kept pushing higher ups 0:16:52.240 --> 0:16:55.720 kept flip flopping on who to blame and what the 0:16:55.800 --> 0:16:59.160 actual cause was. And what I'm getting is a sense 0:16:59.200 --> 0:17:03.840 of surprise that people are angry about this in. 0:17:03.800 --> 0:17:04.560 The first place. 0:17:04.840 --> 0:17:07.920 Yeah, as if this was a normal situation, that people 0:17:07.920 --> 0:17:11.479 were just getting fired any other day with a month's notice, 0:17:11.520 --> 0:17:14.040 And they're like, we gave her a month's notice. 0:17:13.680 --> 0:17:16.120 Which also like I feel like, like, what was the last 0:17:16.119 --> 0:17:17.520 a bit of these people were on a shop floor? 0:17:17.520 --> 0:17:18.560 Like do you know how disruptive it is? 0:17:18.760 --> 0:17:21.760 Like if someone had pulled like so we had when 0:17:21.920 --> 0:17:23.960 we were organizing our union, we had we've had a 0:17:24.040 --> 0:17:26.720 number of like great writer, skilled staffers, and if like, 0:17:26.720 --> 0:17:28.520 if someone had just pulled our staffer out in the 0:17:28.520 --> 0:17:30.720 middle of the drive, like all of us would have 0:17:30.720 --> 0:17:32.760 been unbelievably pissed, and it would have done incredible about 0:17:32.800 --> 0:17:36.199 the damage to the organizing because like union organizing, as 0:17:36.240 --> 0:17:38.000 you are well aware, and I think as the audience 0:17:38.119 --> 0:17:40.879 should be increasingly aware, it's built on personal relations. You 0:17:40.920 --> 0:17:44.120 can't just yank someone out and then not allow them 0:17:44.119 --> 0:17:47.400 to even know what's happening. Like that's that's incredibly disruptive. 0:17:47.400 --> 0:17:48.760 It pisses people off. 0:17:49.760 --> 0:17:52.120 Yeah, it's been very enraging for a lot of our members, 0:17:52.160 --> 0:17:55.240 and so I've been extremely grateful for the support that 0:17:55.280 --> 0:17:58.200 I received, whether it be on social media or by 0:17:58.280 --> 0:18:02.840 our email campaign to management. And what I've seen from 0:18:02.880 --> 0:18:06.600 this is that management was really taken by surprise that 0:18:06.600 --> 0:18:10.600 there was a reaction at all, kind of unfortunately for them. 0:18:11.240 --> 0:18:13.359 There are a lot of shops and a lot of 0:18:13.440 --> 0:18:16.880 units that I have supported and organized with and have 0:18:17.000 --> 0:18:21.040 relationships with, and even for the shops that I don't 0:18:21.080 --> 0:18:24.920 have relationships with, Yuzu members are working in those shops, 0:18:25.040 --> 0:18:28.160 and there is a common understanding that it'd be really 0:18:28.200 --> 0:18:31.480 weird for a stafford to be randomly pulled out during 0:18:31.480 --> 0:18:36.720 a very active campaign. I've had a rough couple months 0:18:36.840 --> 0:18:39.240 of going at it because I think there have been 0:18:39.280 --> 0:18:44.080 some really unhealthy dynamics in the workplace with supervision that 0:18:44.359 --> 0:18:51.160 was unjust and punishment that was unjust for my attempt 0:18:51.280 --> 0:18:55.879 to advocate for different units and attempt to advocate for organizing. 0:18:55.960 --> 0:18:58.280 And I think that is why we have reached the 0:18:58.280 --> 0:19:03.720 conclusion that retaliation retribution must be involved somehow. On paper, 0:19:03.760 --> 0:19:08.920 this was a very oddly handled situation. I was notified 0:19:08.920 --> 0:19:11.480 by email on three thirty pm on a Friday before 0:19:11.520 --> 0:19:14.720 Labor Day weekend, Jesus Christ. I was not informed by 0:19:14.760 --> 0:19:17.280 a meeting, not informed by a call. My supervisor didn't 0:19:17.280 --> 0:19:19.680 pick up my calls until two and a half hours later. 0:19:19.880 --> 0:19:22.520 Oh my god, in the meantime. 0:19:22.080 --> 0:19:24.720 Where they were actually informing my co workers that I 0:19:24.760 --> 0:19:27.560 had been terminated, and then came back to me saying 0:19:27.560 --> 0:19:31.520 that they were busy Jesus, which no firing happens like that. 0:19:31.640 --> 0:19:36.240 I'm sorry, but there was no conceivable way where the 0:19:36.520 --> 0:19:40.040 HR email happens. And then my supervisor is busy telling 0:19:40.080 --> 0:19:44.359 my co workers that I've been let go, which you know, 0:19:44.440 --> 0:19:49.080 we are interpreting as intimidation because why else would this 0:19:49.160 --> 0:19:50.040 be happening. 0:19:50.240 --> 0:19:52.760 Yeah, but even corporate best layoffs don't work like that, 0:19:52.880 --> 0:19:53.960 Like you at least get a meeting. 0:19:56.320 --> 0:20:00.320 No, I didn't get a meeting until the Tuesday after 0:20:00.400 --> 0:20:03.000 to talk about transitioning my work, and they had no 0:20:03.119 --> 0:20:07.119 plan to transition my work. So currently no one is 0:20:07.160 --> 0:20:10.560 handling the work that I was responsible for, which is 0:20:10.560 --> 0:20:10.800 so we. 0:20:10.840 --> 0:20:11.760 Just screw your units. 0:20:12.359 --> 0:20:16.280 That's quite dangerous for campaign and higher ED as the 0:20:16.359 --> 0:20:17.520 semester ramps up. 0:20:17.680 --> 0:20:20.520 Yeah, yeah, oh god, oh yeah. 0:20:20.560 --> 0:20:23.160 And of course the hr email was signed in solidarity 0:20:23.240 --> 0:20:28.840 and had no name. I didn't want to bring up 0:20:28.840 --> 0:20:35.320 that point. There is evidence. Yes, it's extraordinarily funny if 0:20:35.359 --> 0:20:39.359 you actually look at it. But yeah, just even if 0:20:39.520 --> 0:20:42.040 we didn't have the context of what has happened to 0:20:42.119 --> 0:20:45.040 me in the workplace in the last six months, even 0:20:45.160 --> 0:20:49.080 just on paper, looking at how this non renewal was handled, 0:20:49.320 --> 0:20:52.320 it was handled atrociously. Yeah, and so there is not 0:20:52.440 --> 0:20:54.560 much else we can draw from it other than the 0:20:54.560 --> 0:20:57.479 fact that I was someone they wanted to get rid 0:20:57.520 --> 0:21:00.879 of expeditiously, but just didn't anticipate that people would be 0:21:00.920 --> 0:21:04.000 mad about it, which is, you know, to me a 0:21:04.119 --> 0:21:07.120 sense that people up there handling it are a little 0:21:07.119 --> 0:21:10.760 out of touch, Like, yeah, they haven't experience what it's 0:21:10.840 --> 0:21:13.600 like to have this happen, to have a staff a 0:21:13.680 --> 0:21:17.600 randomly yanked out during the middle of a really active campaign. 0:21:18.080 --> 0:21:20.760 Yeah, we need to go to ads again, but we will. 0:21:20.840 --> 0:21:24.280 We will be back soon. And what are our product services? 0:21:24.320 --> 0:21:27.119 We're about to have unionize them and then also ugnize 0:21:27.160 --> 0:21:27.600 your staff. 0:21:38.440 --> 0:21:39.719 We are back. 0:21:39.960 --> 0:21:42.480 So it's something we've been talking about in terms of 0:21:42.520 --> 0:21:46.040 sort of your specific situation and how it's the terrible 0:21:46.040 --> 0:21:48.840 impact and it's had on both you personally and the 0:21:49.000 --> 0:21:53.280 organizing that's going on. And I wanted to come around 0:21:53.400 --> 0:21:56.560 to talking a bit about the impact that this structure 0:21:56.720 --> 0:21:59.800 and the impact that getting denied benefits and stuff like that, 0:22:00.040 --> 0:22:04.160 the impact that this has in general on the way 0:22:04.200 --> 0:22:06.760 that organizing new shops works. 0:22:07.480 --> 0:22:11.880 Yeah, I think that the impact this has very concretely 0:22:12.000 --> 0:22:14.760 is that it does not let us do good work. 0:22:15.040 --> 0:22:18.399 It makes us as organizers scared every three months that 0:22:18.480 --> 0:22:21.359 we have to have another plan. It makes us have 0:22:21.520 --> 0:22:25.600 to prepare a plan every time that rolls around, and 0:22:25.640 --> 0:22:27.359 then you know that takes our focus off of the 0:22:27.440 --> 0:22:30.320 organizing that we could be doing. I mentioned earlier about 0:22:30.359 --> 0:22:34.400 workload organizers get burnt out extremely easily because there are 0:22:34.400 --> 0:22:39.480 no guardrails in place, and then there are plenty plenty 0:22:39.520 --> 0:22:42.760 of other circumstances that make it very difficult within this 0:22:42.880 --> 0:22:46.480 workplace too. For example, we don't have just cause we 0:22:46.560 --> 0:22:51.480 don't have grievance procedures Jesus Christ. And it makes a 0:22:51.560 --> 0:22:55.160 very damaging environment, especially when you consider that the members 0:22:55.280 --> 0:22:58.560 have to bargain for their own contracts, and then they 0:22:58.560 --> 0:23:00.159 look at us and they're like, wait a minute, why 0:23:00.160 --> 0:23:04.960 are your contracts that bad? It doesn't inspire trust. It 0:23:05.000 --> 0:23:08.600 doesn't inspire faith in how this union would organize for 0:23:08.680 --> 0:23:13.640 its workers if the staff are insecure constantly, And we're 0:23:13.680 --> 0:23:16.840 not asking for the moon and the stars in Mars, 0:23:16.880 --> 0:23:19.560 which is unfortunately what the UW lawyer accused us of 0:23:19.600 --> 0:23:22.959 doing so in a bargaining session. We are asking for 0:23:23.320 --> 0:23:28.600 very simple guardrails on job security, on workload, on healthcare 0:23:28.640 --> 0:23:32.560 that could help cover our dependence on wages that are 0:23:32.560 --> 0:23:35.520 not stagnant. You know, they're not even giving us COLA, 0:23:36.280 --> 0:23:39.600 which is the phrase for cost of living adjustment, and 0:23:40.080 --> 0:23:42.200 christ a lot of us live in New York City 0:23:42.200 --> 0:23:46.960 and then there's folks in Boston and hell, even the 0:23:47.320 --> 0:23:49.879 transport costs have been a bit of a sticking point 0:23:50.480 --> 0:23:53.720 where we're like, can we please just get an MTA 0:23:53.840 --> 0:24:01.359 card or the equivalent. But overall, the structure does not 0:24:01.560 --> 0:24:05.480 inspire faith in terms of how our contracts are actually 0:24:05.560 --> 0:24:09.639 negotiated and who is responsible for these contracts. It is 0:24:09.760 --> 0:24:12.320 very difficult to hear from the UAW lawyer that we 0:24:12.359 --> 0:24:15.960 are reaching for Mars when we are asking for things 0:24:16.040 --> 0:24:19.160 that are very present in our standard contracts that our 0:24:19.320 --> 0:24:22.040 members receive. You know, we have taken language from the 0:24:22.080 --> 0:24:25.439 contracts that our members have and tried to apply them 0:24:25.440 --> 0:24:27.800 for our own situation, and we've been told that they're 0:24:27.840 --> 0:24:33.400 too extra. And then, you know, this has been kind 0:24:33.440 --> 0:24:36.639 of an odd year for union staff. I wanted to 0:24:36.720 --> 0:24:40.639 highlight that. Anya Earlier this year in National Education Association, 0:24:41.359 --> 0:24:45.360 their staff were locked out during bargaining eleven ninety nine. 0:24:45.400 --> 0:24:48.639 SCIU also just formed their staff union, and during the 0:24:48.800 --> 0:24:52.760 drive they had one of the organizers fired. Thirty two 0:24:52.800 --> 0:24:56.960 BJSCIU just announced their union and again during their drive, 0:24:57.000 --> 0:25:00.200 one of their organizers. They've posted this on social media. 0:25:00.720 --> 0:25:05.760 One of the organizers had a miscarriage and then asked 0:25:05.760 --> 0:25:08.720 for help, was put on a performance improvement plan, and 0:25:08.760 --> 0:25:12.320 then fired after a month. And you know, there are 0:25:12.440 --> 0:25:19.400 these really uncomfortable trends of this mistreatment happening because priorities 0:25:19.440 --> 0:25:22.879 might be elsewhere, or there is an assumption that we 0:25:22.920 --> 0:25:26.840 are more expendable, that maybe we are kennon fodder, But 0:25:27.520 --> 0:25:33.080 that really really is not what is supposed to happen 0:25:33.840 --> 0:25:37.920 in places that are advocating for fair labor standards. And 0:25:39.000 --> 0:25:41.719 I am glad that we're hearing more stories about this. 0:25:41.880 --> 0:25:44.520 I'm horrified at the stories that are coming out about this, 0:25:45.080 --> 0:25:47.840 but you know, I hope there are more that are 0:25:47.840 --> 0:25:51.360 formed because a lot of these things are very extreme. 0:25:52.040 --> 0:25:54.199 Yeah, and it's and it's you know, it's impacting not 0:25:54.240 --> 0:25:57.280 just the organizers. I think one of the reasons why 0:25:57.400 --> 0:25:59.800 unionisation ratesil declining is like, well, yeah, okay, you guys 0:25:59.840 --> 0:26:02.040 can firing all of your organizers, Like yeah, of course, 0:26:02.080 --> 0:26:04.080 we're not getting shops for it. And I want to 0:26:04.080 --> 0:26:05.960 say what I think about just specifically, like the mood 0:26:06.000 --> 0:26:08.359 and the Stars thing is it's like, okay. This is 0:26:08.440 --> 0:26:10.040 not to say that this kind of stuff will be 0:26:10.080 --> 0:26:12.199 okay at a smaller union, but like, this is not 0:26:12.880 --> 0:26:15.080 Like we've had a lot of independent unions on this show, 0:26:15.119 --> 0:26:17.040 and those are people, you know, who have formed their 0:26:17.040 --> 0:26:19.600 own using completely independently. In the money they've collected is 0:26:19.840 --> 0:26:22.000 stuff that's come from them, like putting out their hat 0:26:22.040 --> 0:26:23.520 on the street, right. I mean, you know some of 0:26:23.520 --> 0:26:25.520 these unions have like a thousand dollars of assets. This 0:26:25.640 --> 0:26:28.639 is the UAW. The UAW has hundreds of millions of dollars. 0:26:29.160 --> 0:26:31.480 They have unbelievable amounts of money. 0:26:31.320 --> 0:26:34.360 And earlier this year, they were just bragging about how 0:26:34.920 --> 0:26:37.720 they are putting so many more millions into new organizing. 0:26:38.119 --> 0:26:40.200 Yeah, and it's like, well, okay, if you're gonna put 0:26:40.480 --> 0:26:42.359 if you're gonna put all this money into organizing, and 0:26:42.400 --> 0:26:44.680 again they probably should they should be doing more, because 0:26:45.400 --> 0:26:47.960 what is the point of sitting on this much money? Right, 0:26:48.040 --> 0:26:50.679 It's like you're behaving like a financial institution and not 0:26:50.920 --> 0:26:53.840 a and not a union, but like you have the 0:26:53.960 --> 0:26:58.960 money to actually like cultivate and develop effective union organizers, 0:26:59.000 --> 0:27:01.480 and you have the money to meet like pretty mild 0:27:01.520 --> 0:27:04.399 contract contracts that are like I think your contract is 0:27:04.400 --> 0:27:07.880 probably significantly cheaper than like the contract that they're negotiating, right, 0:27:08.359 --> 0:27:10.639 Like this is just this is nonsense, Like we know 0:27:10.760 --> 0:27:12.840 you have this kind of money also because you're paying 0:27:13.200 --> 0:27:16.640 your like managerial staff for six figures, So clearly you 0:27:16.680 --> 0:27:19.160 can do this and you're simply not. And I think 0:27:19.200 --> 0:27:21.040 that should outrage everyone. 0:27:21.600 --> 0:27:24.000 I think that's exactly the response of a lot of 0:27:24.000 --> 0:27:27.440 our members because knowing that a lot of our temp 0:27:27.560 --> 0:27:31.760 organizers and staff organizers are people that are most passionately 0:27:31.800 --> 0:27:35.040 devoting themselves to the labor movement, and you know, are 0:27:35.359 --> 0:27:41.120 met with such unstable job conditions is truly horrifying because 0:27:41.160 --> 0:27:44.960 this is not this is not a path to careerism 0:27:45.720 --> 0:27:48.399 like as a temp organizer, there is not much upward 0:27:48.440 --> 0:27:50.879 mobility here. Let me be very clear, there is not 0:27:51.000 --> 0:27:53.760 much upward mobility. It's not like this is a cushy job. 0:27:54.280 --> 0:27:56.080 There is no real way for me to just like 0:27:56.119 --> 0:27:59.159 sit back and relax on piles of bureaucratic money or 0:27:59.200 --> 0:28:03.520 something like that. And that reminds me of how I 0:28:03.520 --> 0:28:06.399 shout out to our Korean comrades that I've met at 0:28:06.480 --> 0:28:11.320 labor notes, where I explained to them what a temporary 0:28:11.440 --> 0:28:15.480 organizer's job is like and how many people we handle 0:28:15.600 --> 0:28:19.560 and how temporary our status is. I was talking to 0:28:19.880 --> 0:28:23.840 some of our equivalents in the auto industry as well, 0:28:23.920 --> 0:28:27.800 the union workers there, and they were pretty horrified at 0:28:27.840 --> 0:28:33.680 the workload, at the insecurity, at the just again lack 0:28:33.720 --> 0:28:37.480 of EQUIVALENCYE. And again I'm not trying to claim that 0:28:37.800 --> 0:28:42.040 Korea's labor organizing world is perfect, like absolutely nobody is. 0:28:42.560 --> 0:28:46.480 But the chakra to them is like, well, why are 0:28:46.520 --> 0:28:50.280 you doing this? Why are you working in this job? 0:28:50.880 --> 0:28:52.520 They have asked me this to my face, why are 0:28:52.520 --> 0:28:55.440 you working in this job? What is possibly good enough 0:28:55.440 --> 0:28:58.200 for that for you, And unfortunately a lot of it 0:28:58.320 --> 0:29:01.560 is optimism of the will, and I think that's a 0:29:01.560 --> 0:29:05.520 lot of what's keeping us going. And so my last 0:29:05.560 --> 0:29:08.800 day is supposedly September twenty eighth, but hopefully this month 0:29:08.840 --> 0:29:13.320 there have been fantastic outpourings of support and we are 0:29:14.200 --> 0:29:19.920 also picketing the political Leadership conference on the Friday the thirteenth, scary, 0:29:20.120 --> 0:29:24.000 and I think that is going to really align with 0:29:24.040 --> 0:29:27.480 how YUSUS needed to escalate. I think this is again 0:29:27.640 --> 0:29:30.479 just a boiling point, and it has shown how all 0:29:30.520 --> 0:29:33.600 of this culminates in a very unfair labor standard and 0:29:33.680 --> 0:29:37.200 practice of which we have filed a few charges. But 0:29:37.960 --> 0:29:39.680 there's a lot more that needs to be done. And 0:29:39.720 --> 0:29:43.120 even if I don't get reinstated, I think that USU 0:29:43.200 --> 0:29:46.120 is a great example of how there's still more change 0:29:46.160 --> 0:29:48.240 that needs to happen within UAW. 0:29:48.280 --> 0:29:49.520 Yeah, hundred percent. 0:29:49.840 --> 0:29:53.000 I want to close by talking about through line through 0:29:53.080 --> 0:29:54.920 a lot of these episodes that we've We've talked with 0:29:54.960 --> 0:29:56.680 a lot of people who work for Planned Parenthood, We've 0:29:56.680 --> 0:29:58.400 talked for a lot of people who work for NGOs, 0:29:59.280 --> 0:30:03.440 and this is the same behavior that they do where 0:30:03.640 --> 0:30:06.480 you know, quite frankly, what they are doing is exploiting, 0:30:06.600 --> 0:30:08.760 exploiting the labor of people who believe in the cause, 0:30:09.440 --> 0:30:12.400 and because people are willing to, you know, because because 0:30:12.440 --> 0:30:14.360 people believe in what they're doing, because the work that 0:30:14.400 --> 0:30:17.720 they're doing is vital and necessary, These NGOs and these 0:30:17.800 --> 0:30:20.400 unions think that they can just continuously exploit the people 0:30:20.400 --> 0:30:23.680 who work for them, and this damages the workers, This 0:30:23.800 --> 0:30:27.560 damages the people who they're nominally trying to help, and 0:30:27.680 --> 0:30:30.960 this damages the entire left because when you're sort of 0:30:31.000 --> 0:30:34.560 charting through organizers and when you're sort of fundamentally betraying 0:30:35.120 --> 0:30:37.720 the missions that you're supposed to be doing in order 0:30:37.760 --> 0:30:43.040 to just do more exploitation, this significantly damages literally the 0:30:43.200 --> 0:30:46.200 entire organizing project that we're all fighting for. So Alex, 0:30:46.280 --> 0:30:49.120 thank you so much for coming and talking and talking 0:30:49.120 --> 0:30:51.800 to us about this and I where can people go 0:30:51.840 --> 0:30:53.600 to support you and support you? Zoo? 0:30:54.120 --> 0:30:58.800 Our accounts are UAW staff United on Instagram and Twitter. 0:30:59.160 --> 0:31:03.480 Please follow for more. Check out the adorable Yuzu Lemon 0:31:03.520 --> 0:31:06.400 logos that we have everywhere. If you're in New York 0:31:06.520 --> 0:31:09.160 or Boston, those are our major hubs. We keep an 0:31:09.160 --> 0:31:11.080 eye off for future actions. 0:31:11.120 --> 0:31:14.520 Awesome, thank you again for coming on the show. And yeah, 0:31:14.560 --> 0:31:17.720 if you are a union staffer, because I know I 0:31:17.760 --> 0:31:19.200 know a number of you are listening to this. 0:31:19.440 --> 0:31:21.240 If you're in the UAW, raise hell. 0:31:21.360 --> 0:31:24.040 And if you're not in the UAW and you don't 0:31:24.040 --> 0:31:26.200 have your own staff union, consider it. 0:31:27.000 --> 0:31:27.880 Thank you for having me. 0:31:28.280 --> 0:31:52.440 Yeah, thank you, Robert Evans. Here, this is It could 0:31:52.520 --> 0:31:56.520 happen here a podcast about things falling apart, and today 0:31:56.560 --> 0:31:59.120 I wanted to take some time to talk about Ukraine, 0:31:59.280 --> 0:32:02.920 in particularly to talk about the sort of cultural place 0:32:03.720 --> 0:32:08.520 that the Ukrainian resistance against Russia expanded invasion by Russia 0:32:09.000 --> 0:32:12.600 has taken in American politics and in American kind of 0:32:12.640 --> 0:32:16.600 political culture. Obviously, I am recording this within a few 0:32:16.680 --> 0:32:21.880 hours of another attempted assassination on former President Trump, this 0:32:21.920 --> 0:32:24.680 one by a guy who, among a confusing milange of 0:32:24.720 --> 0:32:28.160 other things, claimed to be a major advocate of Ukrainian 0:32:28.200 --> 0:32:30.240 sovereignty and that that was a major reason why he 0:32:30.400 --> 0:32:33.880 was angry at the Republicans and angry at former President Trump, 0:32:34.440 --> 0:32:38.640 and kind of that at least failed assassination attempt is 0:32:38.680 --> 0:32:42.280 sort of in line with a lot of derangement around Ukraine, 0:32:42.320 --> 0:32:44.040 and you can find this on the left and the 0:32:44.120 --> 0:32:46.640 right in the center. I've come to think that if 0:32:46.680 --> 0:32:50.720 you're trying to evaluate sort of how credible someone is 0:32:50.760 --> 0:32:53.600 as a geopolitical expert today, one of the best things 0:32:53.640 --> 0:32:55.720 you can do is kind of look back to early 0:32:55.800 --> 0:32:58.720 February twenty twenty two and see what sort of claims 0:32:58.800 --> 0:33:01.120 they were making about what is going to happen, whether 0:33:01.240 --> 0:33:04.360 or not Russia was actually going to go into Ukraine 0:33:04.400 --> 0:33:07.760 and expand their invasion. And that's obviously, you know, a 0:33:07.800 --> 0:33:10.400 bigger topic than I think we're going to get into today. 0:33:10.880 --> 0:33:13.000 One of the things that I find really interesting when 0:33:13.040 --> 0:33:16.640 I kind of analyze how particularly conservatives have turned on 0:33:16.680 --> 0:33:20.760 the Ukrainian cause, is how kind of incomprehensible that seems, 0:33:20.920 --> 0:33:23.760 just based on the way in which I was raised 0:33:23.800 --> 0:33:26.960 by the conservatives in my life to think about Russia 0:33:27.080 --> 0:33:30.840 and to think about like Russian military aggression. You know, 0:33:30.960 --> 0:33:34.120 I grew up largely in the post Cold War era, 0:33:34.240 --> 0:33:37.760 but my parents were both like raised by Cold warriors. 0:33:37.800 --> 0:33:41.080 They mostly grew up on military basis, and I still 0:33:41.120 --> 0:33:43.400 grew up with an awful lot of the kind of 0:33:43.480 --> 0:33:47.760 Cold War shrapnel, and my sort of ideological training. You know, 0:33:48.280 --> 0:33:51.200 the movie Read Dawn was a big part of my childhood. 0:33:51.280 --> 0:33:53.840 You know, some of those early James Bond movies where 0:33:54.120 --> 0:33:56.640 the Soviet Unions are still the bad guy. You know, 0:33:56.680 --> 0:33:59.080 this was all major stuff for me. So it's it's 0:33:59.080 --> 0:34:05.320 been particularly disorienting kind of watching Philo Russian attitudes infiltrate 0:34:05.400 --> 0:34:08.160 the right and us move from this idea of like 0:34:08.920 --> 0:34:11.080 these people are one way or the other kind of 0:34:11.120 --> 0:34:15.319 a geopolitical opponent of the United States towards these people 0:34:15.400 --> 0:34:18.719 are almost existing in an idealized version of the society 0:34:18.800 --> 0:34:22.160 we bring around. It's been a cause of some whiplash 0:34:22.360 --> 0:34:24.160 for me and for I think a lot of people 0:34:24.239 --> 0:34:26.920 who were raised in that environment and then kind of 0:34:27.040 --> 0:34:30.680 came out of those ideological beliefs. And when we look 0:34:30.719 --> 0:34:33.800 at the kind of turnaround on the right about this stuff. 0:34:34.160 --> 0:34:36.239 One of the people who's been on the bleeding edge 0:34:36.239 --> 0:34:39.240 of this has been Vice presidential candidate JD. 0:34:39.440 --> 0:34:39.840 Vance. 0:34:40.000 --> 0:34:43.359 And in fact, Ukraine might mark the first place where 0:34:43.480 --> 0:34:45.960 Vance really came in ahead of the rest of his 0:34:46.080 --> 0:34:49.120 party on an issue they would all ultimately move in 0:34:49.200 --> 0:34:52.440 behind him on back in early twenty twenty two, in 0:34:52.480 --> 0:34:55.960 the immediate wake of Russia's expanded invasion, Vance told Steve 0:34:56.040 --> 0:35:00.440 Bannon in one of his many ill advised podcast interviews, quote, 0:35:00.560 --> 0:35:03.279 I don't really care what happens to Ukraine one way 0:35:03.360 --> 0:35:06.240 or the other. Now is This paragraph from an article 0:35:06.280 --> 0:35:09.800 by Ed Kilgore and New York Magazine makes clear Vance 0:35:09.920 --> 0:35:14.280 was swiftly followed by others. Quote Then Congressman Madison Cawthorn 0:35:14.360 --> 0:35:18.120 paroted Russian propaganda by saying the Ukrainian government is incredibly 0:35:18.120 --> 0:35:22.080 corrupt and is incredibly evil and has been pushing woke ideologies, 0:35:22.600 --> 0:35:26.400 and his colleague Marjorie Taylor Green called the Ukrainians neo Nazis. 0:35:26.760 --> 0:35:29.600 Fox News's Tucker Carlson was a constant font of bitter 0:35:29.640 --> 0:35:34.800 hostility towards USAID for Ukraine. Now Cawthorne was and remains 0:35:34.840 --> 0:35:36.879 now a stooge. But I think it really is kind 0:35:36.880 --> 0:35:39.680 of drilling into the precise wording of his claim here, 0:35:40.080 --> 0:35:43.759 the fact that he's so focused on wokeness within the 0:35:44.280 --> 0:35:47.879 context of a conflict that seems much more serious than 0:35:47.960 --> 0:35:51.680 kind of the standard American culture war bullshit. A lot 0:35:51.680 --> 0:35:53.640 of why we're seeing this has to do with the 0:35:53.800 --> 0:35:56.759 fallout over the Russia Gate culture war that consumed the 0:35:56.760 --> 0:36:00.480 Democrats during the first half of the Trump administration. This 0:36:00.560 --> 0:36:03.200 led to the enemy of the enemy is my friend's 0:36:03.280 --> 0:36:06.000 sort of thinking among the right, and this was stoked 0:36:06.040 --> 0:36:10.279 consciously by Russian propaganda efforts. After Trump left office, these 0:36:10.320 --> 0:36:13.560 efforts were redoubled, especially after the war in Ukraine became 0:36:13.600 --> 0:36:17.920 an existential issue for Putin's regime. A good example of 0:36:17.960 --> 0:36:21.120 the more obvious sort of messaging is this Moscow Times 0:36:21.200 --> 0:36:24.360 article from May of twenty twenty three, with the title 0:36:24.560 --> 0:36:29.680 Russia to build migrant village for conservative American expats. Quote 0:36:29.840 --> 0:36:34.720 Timor Beslangarov, a migration lawyer at Moscow's Vista Foreign Business Support, 0:36:34.760 --> 0:36:37.440 claimed that around two hundred families wish to immigrate to 0:36:37.520 --> 0:36:42.640 Russia for ideological reasons. The reason is propaganda of radical values. 0:36:42.680 --> 0:36:45.799 Today they have seventy genders and who knows what will 0:36:45.800 --> 0:36:50.720 come next. Ria Novosti quoted Bessangarov as saying, echoing President 0:36:50.760 --> 0:36:56.080 Vladimir Putin's frequently deployed grievances against Western countries comparative gender freedom, 0:36:56.360 --> 0:36:59.040 and here we see it again. The focus on hatred 0:36:59.080 --> 0:37:02.200 of woke as a j justification for solidarity with Russia. 0:37:02.680 --> 0:37:06.520 A sizeable plurality of Americans still support the US sending 0:37:06.560 --> 0:37:09.840 aid to Ukraine, and the reality of Russia's invasion is 0:37:09.920 --> 0:37:12.840 hideous enough that the bulk of modern Russian propaganda in 0:37:12.880 --> 0:37:16.320 this country today seems to focus on the woke issue 0:37:16.560 --> 0:37:19.960 more than anything directly relevant to the war. As I 0:37:20.000 --> 0:37:22.280 write this, one of the top stories in the country 0:37:22.360 --> 0:37:25.919 is how a Tennessee based media network, Tenant Media, hired 0:37:25.920 --> 0:37:28.719 a bunch of American influencers like Tim Poole and Dave 0:37:28.800 --> 0:37:31.200 Rubin and paid them north of one hundred grand of 0:37:31.280 --> 0:37:34.880 video to make Russian propaganda. Now, pool and Ruben and 0:37:34.920 --> 0:37:37.480 their fellows claim to be shocked, shocked that a foreign 0:37:37.480 --> 0:37:41.480 government was involved in all and deny acting as unregistered 0:37:41.520 --> 0:37:44.520 foreign agents or breaking the law in any way. We'll 0:37:44.520 --> 0:37:47.640 see how those claims look in a few months. For now, 0:37:47.719 --> 0:37:50.880 I think it's illustrative to turn towards a Wired analysis 0:37:50.920 --> 0:37:54.160 of the content of dozens of Tenant Media videos written 0:37:54.160 --> 0:37:57.799 by Tim Marshman and Drove Merota. It shows us the 0:37:57.920 --> 0:38:01.000 kind of propaganda that Russia found fruit full inceding to 0:38:01.040 --> 0:38:04.840 an American audience quote. This analysis does not show that 0:38:04.880 --> 0:38:08.120 in these videos the influencers were particularly fixated on the 0:38:08.200 --> 0:38:11.640 Ukraine War. The word Ukraine appears in the transcript sixty 0:38:11.680 --> 0:38:15.600 seven times, about as often as misinformation, Christianity, and Clinton. 0:38:16.120 --> 0:38:19.759 It does show the influencers stressing highly divisive culture war 0:38:19.840 --> 0:38:23.480 topics in the videos, which carried titles like trans widows 0:38:23.480 --> 0:38:26.400 are a thing, and it's getting all caps out of hand, 0:38:26.560 --> 0:38:30.640 and race is biological, but gender isn't question mark, question 0:38:30.680 --> 0:38:33.920 mark question mark. The word trans appears one hundred and 0:38:33.920 --> 0:38:38.280 fifty two times and transgender ninety eight, So sixty seven 0:38:38.320 --> 0:38:41.400 times we see Ukraine appear in these transcripts, as opposed 0:38:41.400 --> 0:38:46.040 to well over two hundred times for trans and transgender together. Now, 0:38:46.080 --> 0:38:48.560 if you want a snapshot of just how absurd and 0:38:48.600 --> 0:38:51.800 divorced from reality the culture wars have gotten, the Russian 0:38:51.840 --> 0:38:56.680 government funding a clandestine influence operation considered stoking fears about 0:38:56.680 --> 0:38:59.239 trans people to have a higher rate of return than 0:38:59.239 --> 0:39:03.560 actually propag ggandizing directly about the war in Ukraine. As 0:39:03.640 --> 0:39:06.920 absurd as this sounds, these tactics have borne fruit, and 0:39:06.960 --> 0:39:09.600 I think the reason why is simple. By building a 0:39:09.640 --> 0:39:14.040 sense of solidarity between bigoted American conservatives and what they 0:39:14.120 --> 0:39:18.800 see as a similarly conservative Russia. Now Obviously, the reality 0:39:18.840 --> 0:39:21.600 of the situation is that Russia is not exactly the 0:39:21.640 --> 0:39:24.480 country these people think it is. While it is true 0:39:24.480 --> 0:39:27.120 that the number of Russian adults who consider themselves at 0:39:27.200 --> 0:39:31.040 least somewhat religious skyrocketed after the fall of the USSR 0:39:31.480 --> 0:39:34.480 from eleven percent or so to over fifty percent today, 0:39:35.080 --> 0:39:37.760 much of that is likely just explained by the change 0:39:37.800 --> 0:39:42.480 away from an expressly atheistic government. Even today, Pew Research 0:39:42.560 --> 0:39:45.879 notes quote for most Russians, the return to religion did 0:39:45.920 --> 0:39:49.200 not correspond with a return to church. Across all three 0:39:49.280 --> 0:39:52.160 waves of ISSPD data, no more than about one in 0:39:52.280 --> 0:39:55.719 ten Russians said they attend religious services at least once 0:39:55.760 --> 0:39:58.719 a month. The share of regular attenders monthly or more 0:39:58.760 --> 0:40:01.800 often was two percent to nineteen ninety one, nine percent 0:40:01.840 --> 0:40:04.680 to nineteen ninety eight, and seven percent in two thousand 0:40:04.680 --> 0:40:08.480 and eight. For reference, about thirty two percent of Americans 0:40:08.520 --> 0:40:12.920 currently attend church, synagogue, mosque, et cetera on a weekly basis. 0:40:13.280 --> 0:40:13.440 Now. 0:40:13.440 --> 0:40:16.600 This is down significantly from forty nine percent in nineteen 0:40:16.680 --> 0:40:19.640 fifty eight and does represent a low for church attendance 0:40:19.640 --> 0:40:22.359 in US history. But you can see we still beat 0:40:22.400 --> 0:40:25.840 the Russians in at least active religiosity by a factor 0:40:25.880 --> 0:40:29.640 of like five. Now, one of the modern bugbears of 0:40:29.680 --> 0:40:32.200 the right wing in the US is no fault divorce, 0:40:32.280 --> 0:40:36.080 which often gets wrapped up in conversations about wokeness. Here, 0:40:36.160 --> 0:40:39.760 Russia is also not a bastion of good old fashioned values. 0:40:40.120 --> 0:40:42.280 I'm going to quote from an article in Russia Beyond 0:40:42.360 --> 0:40:47.200 by Nikolay Schefchenko in twenty sixteen. The ratio in Russian 0:40:47.200 --> 0:40:49.680 of divorces to new marriages that year was one to 0:40:49.719 --> 0:40:52.680 one point six, meaning that Russians divorce more often than 0:40:52.719 --> 0:40:56.000 they marry. In recent decades, over sixty percent of marriages 0:40:56.040 --> 0:41:01.200 in Russia ended an official separation. Now, there is precisely 0:41:01.239 --> 0:41:04.080 one issue where Russian culture is in reality more in 0:41:04.160 --> 0:41:07.640 line with the kind of culture American conservatives claim to desire, 0:41:08.160 --> 0:41:10.960 and that is in its treatment of LGBT people and 0:41:11.080 --> 0:41:14.719 ethnic minorities. The last years in Putin's Russia have seen 0:41:14.760 --> 0:41:18.359 a surge in hate crimes against queer Russians, as LGBT 0:41:18.480 --> 0:41:22.520 advocacy organizations have been declared illegal and punished by the government. 0:41:23.280 --> 0:41:26.759 This is the Russia our American right wing finds solidarity with, 0:41:27.360 --> 0:41:30.560 and we shouldn't forget that right when we're looking at 0:41:30.640 --> 0:41:33.279 to what extent do these people see Russia as kind 0:41:33.320 --> 0:41:35.480 of embodying the values they would like to bring to 0:41:35.480 --> 0:41:37.759 the United States. It has a lot less to do 0:41:37.840 --> 0:41:41.840 with actual religiosity, with good old fashioned family values, and 0:41:41.880 --> 0:41:44.240 a lot more to do with hate for specific groups 0:41:44.239 --> 0:41:47.200 of people. And we're going to talk about what that 0:41:47.280 --> 0:41:50.359 means within the context of US politics in a little bit. 0:41:50.440 --> 0:42:04.799 But first here's some ads. So earlier this year, I 0:42:04.840 --> 0:42:07.560 headed to the Republican National Convention, and I had a 0:42:07.600 --> 0:42:09.479 lot on my mind there, But one of the things 0:42:09.480 --> 0:42:12.160 I was kind of interested in is hearing the way 0:42:12.280 --> 0:42:16.600 in which conservatives talked about Ukraine when they felt like 0:42:16.680 --> 0:42:20.800 they were among friends. It was not uncommon to hear 0:42:21.040 --> 0:42:24.799 Ukraine referenced in conversations as a geopolitical enemy of the 0:42:24.920 --> 0:42:28.120 United States. And you know, this is something I encountered 0:42:28.160 --> 0:42:29.920 a number of times, and I wanted to make sure 0:42:29.920 --> 0:42:32.759 it wasn't just a fluke of my own experiences there. 0:42:32.800 --> 0:42:36.040 And I assure you it was not. Michael Witely, who 0:42:36.080 --> 0:42:39.480 Donald Trump picked to chair the RNC, appeared on Fox 0:42:39.560 --> 0:42:42.520 News in April and lumped Ukraine in with China and 0:42:42.560 --> 0:42:47.680 Iran as aggressive adversaries. Of the United States. Now, you know, 0:42:47.880 --> 0:42:50.040 we can quibble on that list for a number of reasons, 0:42:50.040 --> 0:42:53.240 but Ukraine, a country we are currently arming and training 0:42:53.239 --> 0:42:55.800 to fight in our stead, is just kind of absurd 0:42:55.920 --> 0:42:59.240 to describe as an aggressive adversary of the United States. 0:43:00.080 --> 0:43:00.200 Now. 0:43:00.239 --> 0:43:03.320 That very month, Congress voted on a foreign aid package, 0:43:03.360 --> 0:43:06.560 which caused a massive split in the Republican Party. The 0:43:06.600 --> 0:43:10.080 anti Ukraine side was led by voices like Marjorie Taylor Green, 0:43:10.120 --> 0:43:13.920 who told Steve Bannon, the Ukrainian government is attacking Christians. 0:43:13.960 --> 0:43:17.920 The Ukrainian government is executing priests. Russia is not doing that. 0:43:18.120 --> 0:43:22.520 They're not attacking Christianity. Now, like most things, Green says, 0:43:22.640 --> 0:43:25.520 this is not quite accurate. The Guardian noted at the 0:43:25.600 --> 0:43:28.880 time quote. In fact, according to figures from the Institute 0:43:28.880 --> 0:43:31.840 for Religious Freedom, a Ukrainian group, at least six hundred 0:43:31.840 --> 0:43:34.440 and thirty religious sites had been damaged or looted in 0:43:34.520 --> 0:43:39.400 Russia's invasion by December last year. Green received a speaking 0:43:39.440 --> 0:43:43.040 slot at the RNC, as did tech investor David Sachs, 0:43:43.120 --> 0:43:45.640 who spent some of his time on stage arguing that 0:43:45.719 --> 0:43:49.359 Joe Biden somehow provoked the Russians to invade Ukraine by 0:43:49.400 --> 0:43:52.839 talking about NATO expansion. Now, this is a claim you'll 0:43:52.840 --> 0:43:54.759 hear on some segments of the left too, and it 0:43:54.800 --> 0:43:58.000 tends to ignore that Russia invaded back in twenty fourteen 0:43:58.280 --> 0:44:01.640 after a revolution against a Krimlin back to President Yenikovich, 0:44:02.000 --> 0:44:05.719 threw their own plans in the region into disarray. Ukraine 0:44:05.760 --> 0:44:08.680 to this day, despite the expanded invasion, is not a 0:44:08.719 --> 0:44:11.839 part of NATO, and Biden's administration has been leery not 0:44:11.880 --> 0:44:14.520 only of pushing for this, but of supplying Ukraine with 0:44:14.600 --> 0:44:18.480 long range weapons to strike inside Russian territory. The fact 0:44:18.520 --> 0:44:21.920 that Ukrainians and others did start discussing Ukrainian membership in 0:44:22.000 --> 0:44:24.880 NATO after almost a decade of war is certainly not 0:44:25.000 --> 0:44:27.759 among the things that we can blame the Biden administration 0:44:27.960 --> 0:44:32.239 for starting. As I trolled the RNC talking to attendees 0:44:32.280 --> 0:44:34.800 about their feelings on the war, I got a variety 0:44:34.800 --> 0:44:38.880 of responses. The most positive believe that Ukraine had been wronged, 0:44:38.960 --> 0:44:41.480 but that the war was unwinnable, so the US had 0:44:41.480 --> 0:44:44.799 to negotiate some kind of peace. Moore argued that the 0:44:44.880 --> 0:44:49.360 Ukrainians were somehow stealing usaid, which they imagined would be 0:44:49.360 --> 0:44:52.799 put to better use helping Americans. I found this an 0:44:52.840 --> 0:44:56.719 illogical position personally, given that our aid Ukraine has primarily 0:44:56.760 --> 0:44:59.319 taken the form of old weapons systems no longer in 0:44:59.440 --> 0:45:02.600 use by USA troops unless you want to house homeless 0:45:02.680 --> 0:45:05.520 veterans in Bradley fighting vehicles. I don't really see how 0:45:05.560 --> 0:45:08.000 what we've sent Zelensky is much used to the kind 0:45:08.000 --> 0:45:12.239 of Americans who are actually suffering today. The most enlightening 0:45:12.360 --> 0:45:15.400 conversation that I had while I was at the Republican 0:45:15.440 --> 0:45:19.239 Convention about their sentiments on Ukraine came when Garrison and 0:45:19.280 --> 0:45:23.319 I stumbled upon Rudy Giuliani, seated at the booth for 0:45:23.400 --> 0:45:27.080 some streaming network or another, exiled from the main stage 0:45:27.080 --> 0:45:30.160 of the event. I introduced myself to Rudy and we 0:45:30.280 --> 0:45:33.239 started off just talking about how surreal the mood was 0:45:33.320 --> 0:45:36.520 given the recent attempted assassination of the former president. 0:45:37.280 --> 0:45:40.680 He's a conquering hero in history. We would have been 0:45:40.719 --> 0:45:43.640 even without a Saturday. It's Saturday. It's surreal. 0:45:44.200 --> 0:45:45.880 I think people feel they're living through history. 0:45:46.640 --> 0:45:50.200 That image of him in Rallying America has to be 0:45:50.239 --> 0:45:53.719 one of our ten historical great interest now. 0:45:53.800 --> 0:45:56.759 I included that because it's a fun snapshot of just 0:45:56.880 --> 0:46:00.880 how elated Republicans were that week, right before Biden dropped 0:46:00.920 --> 0:46:04.280 out and the whole election changed yet again on a dime. 0:46:05.000 --> 0:46:07.200 From here, Rudy and I moved to talking a bit 0:46:07.200 --> 0:46:09.640 about how badly the Secret Service had fucked up in 0:46:09.680 --> 0:46:12.680 protecting Trump, which is not really something I had a 0:46:12.680 --> 0:46:15.839 particular disagreement with, although I think Juliani was coming at 0:46:15.840 --> 0:46:19.000 it from more of a conspiratorial standpoint than I would. 0:46:19.080 --> 0:46:22.000 I think simple incompetence more or less explains everything that 0:46:22.080 --> 0:46:26.200 happened that day pretty well. This morphed in fairly short 0:46:26.320 --> 0:46:28.840 order into him ranting about how all of this was 0:46:28.880 --> 0:46:31.279 Biden's fault and how no one ever gets fired for 0:46:31.320 --> 0:46:35.560 incompetence in the Biden administration. He brought up Afghanistan and 0:46:35.640 --> 0:46:38.719 that is what led us finally to Ukraine. 0:46:39.200 --> 0:46:41.200 Ukraine would not have happened if he hadn't been a 0:46:41.200 --> 0:46:44.880 complete power at over Afghanis. Now, Yeah, what proof is 0:46:45.000 --> 0:46:49.840 very simple. Pudin invaded three times under the last four presidents, 0:46:50.200 --> 0:46:51.799 because only one president he was scared of. 0:46:52.120 --> 0:46:52.640 It was Trump. 0:46:52.920 --> 0:46:55.840 He invaded under Bush, he invaded under Obama, he invaded 0:46:55.880 --> 0:46:58.759 under Biden. He didn't invade under Trump. So don't tell 0:46:58.760 --> 0:47:00.239 me he would have invaded on the Trump you had 0:47:00.239 --> 0:47:00.760 a chance. 0:47:00.600 --> 0:47:03.640 To what he did now, I responded by pointing out 0:47:03.719 --> 0:47:07.239 that Juliani's time frame was a little off. Well, but 0:47:07.360 --> 0:47:10.480 I mean I was there in twenty fifteen, and my 0:47:10.560 --> 0:47:13.040 friends who were in the Ukrainian military were still fighting 0:47:13.360 --> 0:47:16.200 under Trump. You know, the invasion, Yeah, was still happening. 0:47:16.400 --> 0:47:19.080 It was just not at the current level that it's at. 0:47:19.560 --> 0:47:22.440 Rudy went on to blame Obama for not having given 0:47:22.440 --> 0:47:24.640 weapons to Ukraine in a timely fashion. 0:47:25.160 --> 0:47:31.960 The fact of Koroshenko, who is a corrupt pal of Biden's, 0:47:32.360 --> 0:47:36.160 told me that, yeah, they were my friends, but I 0:47:36.200 --> 0:47:39.120 didn't get any guns until Trump came in. They wanted 0:47:39.160 --> 0:47:41.120 me to win with t shootings and stuff. 0:47:41.360 --> 0:47:41.600 He said. 0:47:41.600 --> 0:47:42.759 I didn't have a new what side they were on. 0:47:44.200 --> 0:47:46.719 Obama never gave them alls. He gave them money. 0:47:47.840 --> 0:47:51.640 Now, this is again not accurate. By December of twenty nineteen, 0:47:51.760 --> 0:47:54.399 the US had provided Ukraine with about one point five 0:47:54.480 --> 0:47:57.879 billion dollars in aid since the twenty fourteen invasion. This 0:47:57.960 --> 0:48:01.359 did include weapons including javel in, anti tank missiles and 0:48:01.560 --> 0:48:04.120 armored vehicles, which is why they had some of these 0:48:04.160 --> 0:48:09.040 weapons win the expanded Russian invasion occurred. Rather than loosening 0:48:09.080 --> 0:48:12.640 the purse strings. As Russian aggression continued, President Trump withheld 0:48:12.680 --> 0:48:15.040 three hundred and ninety one million dollars in aid to 0:48:15.080 --> 0:48:18.839 try and get a political favor from Zelenski. We're going 0:48:18.880 --> 0:48:22.960 to continue with Rudy Giuliani and my conversation, but first 0:48:23.480 --> 0:48:37.839 here's a little bit more ads and we're back. So, 0:48:38.480 --> 0:48:41.560 after Juliani made his claim that the United States didn't 0:48:41.600 --> 0:48:44.640 send any weapons over to Ukraine until Trump was president, 0:48:45.239 --> 0:48:47.440 he said this, he. 0:48:47.440 --> 0:48:50.440 Let Biden handle the money, the last guy in the 0:48:50.440 --> 0:48:53.560 world that should be only money to Ukraine now and 0:48:53.760 --> 0:48:56.279 Ukraine's gotten two hundred billion and nobody let us order it. 0:48:57.280 --> 0:49:02.960 This is the acknowledge to be the seconds most corrupt 0:49:03.120 --> 0:49:06.280 country in the world. The fact that they were invaded 0:49:06.320 --> 0:49:09.320 by Russia doesn't make them honest. It makes him the victim, 0:49:09.360 --> 0:49:12.160 doesn't make them honest. And you care a couple hundred 0:49:12.160 --> 0:49:15.600 billion in there without controls? What am I a jackass? 0:49:15.680 --> 0:49:17.839 I can't figure out what's happening, and you don't win 0:49:18.680 --> 0:49:20.080 now much more do you have? You can let's hunch a 0:49:20.080 --> 0:49:20.760 billion company. 0:49:21.200 --> 0:49:25.000 Now, Rudy like most Republicans on this issue always describes 0:49:25.040 --> 0:49:28.040 the aid we've sent to Ukraine as it's cash. I 0:49:28.080 --> 0:49:31.040 find it interesting that he claims Ukrainian corruption is also 0:49:31.160 --> 0:49:34.400 somehow to blame for US not auditing the aid we sent. Now, 0:49:34.400 --> 0:49:37.680 there are issues with how the US Defense Department has 0:49:37.800 --> 0:49:40.839 audited some of the aid going to Ukraine, but those 0:49:40.840 --> 0:49:43.560 are issues with the Defense Department. In fact, it came 0:49:43.600 --> 0:49:46.480 out in January of twenty twenty four that the United 0:49:46.480 --> 0:49:49.239 States failed to audit about a billion dollars worth of 0:49:49.280 --> 0:49:53.160 military aid to Ukraine. Now, first off, this is not cash, 0:49:53.239 --> 0:49:56.960 as Juliani repeatedly insinuates. It's all weapons, and there's no 0:49:57.080 --> 0:49:59.400 evidence that any of these weapons were ever sold to 0:49:59.440 --> 0:50:03.000 another kind of or used outside of Ukraine. They simply 0:50:03.080 --> 0:50:05.359 weren't audited the way that they ought to have been 0:50:05.440 --> 0:50:08.160 because the Pentagon fired all of the people who should 0:50:08.200 --> 0:50:11.760 have been auditing this aid. Right, this is a pretty 0:50:11.800 --> 0:50:14.360 common issue with the Pentagon. You can look back to 0:50:14.440 --> 0:50:16.960 Iraq and the sheer amount of aid that was sent 0:50:17.000 --> 0:50:19.080 to Iraq and then kind of disappeared in the ether 0:50:19.239 --> 0:50:23.080 because they just didn't have anyone paying attention to it. Obviously, 0:50:23.360 --> 0:50:27.319 because that happened under Republican administration. Juliani isn't concerned at 0:50:27.360 --> 0:50:29.840 all about it, but he is deeply concerned about this 0:50:30.000 --> 0:50:33.800 kind of fantastical two hundred billion dollars that he believes 0:50:33.800 --> 0:50:38.439 has been shotgunned out to Ukrainian mobsters. And here's Rudy again. 0:50:38.480 --> 0:50:40.759 As our conversation continued. 0:50:40.640 --> 0:50:45.120 Biden has us consigned to a war without animate in Ukraine. 0:50:45.280 --> 0:50:47.480 He doesn't even dare to suggest an end because he's 0:50:47.480 --> 0:50:49.319 afraid of confrontation with Russia. 0:50:49.400 --> 0:50:50.960 So he's just going to get more people killed. 0:50:51.000 --> 0:50:53.600 I mean, there probably isn't an American president that's that 0:50:53.719 --> 0:50:56.400 more people killed other than an a war than Biden. 0:50:56.880 --> 0:50:59.600 It's interesting you describe it as them not winning, because 0:50:59.680 --> 0:51:01.920 I do have trouble. I know. In the lead up 0:51:01.960 --> 0:51:04.960 to the expanded invasion of February twenty twenty two, the 0:51:05.080 --> 0:51:07.800 expectation from most of the people in our military and 0:51:07.800 --> 0:51:10.480 most people internationally was that the Ukrainian military was going 0:51:10.560 --> 0:51:13.080 to fold in a manner of days. And they're now 0:51:13.200 --> 0:51:16.400 back to about seventeen percent of the country under Russian occupation, 0:51:16.480 --> 0:51:19.920 which isn't a massive escalation over where it was previously 0:51:20.000 --> 0:51:23.160 because they pushed well because they pushed the Russians out 0:51:23.200 --> 0:51:23.680 of Kiev. 0:51:24.760 --> 0:51:26.160 Well, will that end the war? 0:51:26.840 --> 0:51:28.120 Russia can keep seven pay percent. 0:51:28.280 --> 0:51:30.360 I don't think the Ukrainians are willing to send the 0:51:30.360 --> 0:51:31.239 war that woman. 0:51:32.719 --> 0:51:35.440 The war is one when you achieve the objective that 0:51:35.440 --> 0:51:38.640 has you stopped conducting war. They're not even close to them. 0:51:39.440 --> 0:51:42.920 The only way Ukraine says it will stop fighting is 0:51:42.960 --> 0:51:46.360 if Russia is pushed out of Ukraine. They haven't been 0:51:46.400 --> 0:51:48.200 able to do that. So they're not winning the war. 0:51:48.280 --> 0:51:52.120 I mean, nor are they presenting a plan that we're 0:51:52.200 --> 0:51:55.640 funding to do that. We're not planning, we're not funding. 0:51:56.800 --> 0:51:59.840 We're just endlessly giving them money to keep the status quoth. 0:52:00.520 --> 0:52:02.680 We do not have a plan to win them or 0:52:02.800 --> 0:52:03.080 end it. 0:52:03.760 --> 0:52:05.279 So I mean when I. 0:52:05.320 --> 0:52:07.880 Tom Towell used to say, the worst thing about American 0:52:07.960 --> 0:52:14.239 foreign policy under unrealistic, somewhat left leaning liberals is war 0:52:14.280 --> 0:52:17.439 without end. When you go into a war, you've got 0:52:17.440 --> 0:52:20.440 to be willing to commit yourself. You've got to be 0:52:20.440 --> 0:52:24.880 willing to win it quick, otherwise you're gonna lose. You know, 0:52:25.040 --> 0:52:28.800 when we started, when we started losing wars, got this policy, 0:52:28.840 --> 0:52:29.640 we fall. 0:52:29.680 --> 0:52:31.960 But if you if you compare where Ukraine is at 0:52:32.040 --> 0:52:34.279 right now to the wars in the United States has 0:52:34.280 --> 0:52:38.480 gotten involved in in this century. Iraq, you know, around 0:52:38.480 --> 0:52:42.319 a decade or so close to twenty years for Afghanistan. 0:52:42.440 --> 0:52:47.520 Ukraine is two years since the expanded invasion and kind 0:52:47.520 --> 0:52:50.759 of you know war. It's a it's a massive international 0:52:50.760 --> 0:52:53.800 conflict between a much smaller nation and a larger one. 0:52:54.160 --> 0:52:56.960 When I talk to Ukrainians and they I asked them, 0:52:56.960 --> 0:52:59.040 what do you think you need to actually win this? 0:52:59.600 --> 0:53:01.640 One of the things they repeatedly say is the ability 0:53:01.680 --> 0:53:03.600 to strike Russian assets inside Russia. 0:53:04.200 --> 0:53:07.759 Who doesn't give him? Who does? Who? Prem Yeah, I'm 0:53:07.760 --> 0:53:08.920 just one more minutes, we got to go. 0:53:09.160 --> 0:53:12.040 Who prevents that person? Definitely? 0:53:12.120 --> 0:53:13.880 The Biden administration hasn't allowed that. 0:53:14.360 --> 0:53:16.279 He tells us he wants them to win. 0:53:16.560 --> 0:53:18.520 Do you do you think why. 0:53:18.200 --> 0:53:22.200 Would you be supportive under a new Republican administration of 0:53:22.239 --> 0:53:24.080 allowing Ukraine to strike inside Russia? 0:53:24.120 --> 0:53:26.560 I would be supportive of sitting down and having a 0:53:26.560 --> 0:53:29.880 realistic conversation about a plan. First thing I do is 0:53:29.920 --> 0:53:30.839 all that the money we gave. 0:53:31.640 --> 0:53:34.880 Now, of course, Rudy can't support that, so he pivoted 0:53:34.920 --> 0:53:37.320 back to arguing that we need to audit Ukraine to 0:53:37.400 --> 0:53:40.200 quote find out what happened to the money we gave 0:53:40.280 --> 0:53:43.960 him him being Zelensky again, I pointed out that we 0:53:44.000 --> 0:53:48.440 aren't giving him money directly, we're sending over weapons. Nevertheless, 0:53:48.760 --> 0:53:52.520 our conversation continued. Now, the vast majority of the two 0:53:52.600 --> 0:53:55.120 hundred billion that's been sent over, though, is in munitions, 0:53:55.120 --> 0:53:59.000 Like we're not talking about have you have you found 0:53:59.040 --> 0:54:02.000 it in the American industry, but there has been American 0:54:02.080 --> 0:54:03.280 in the American industry. 0:54:03.320 --> 0:54:06.080 You want to defend the American military industrial bumble what 0:54:06.160 --> 0:54:07.640 I want to think there is a lot. 0:54:07.480 --> 0:54:09.440 Of weeks of money in the American It. 0:54:09.480 --> 0:54:11.520 Was very much Well, I'm not concerned about money though, 0:54:11.520 --> 0:54:11.920 because what. 0:54:12.160 --> 0:54:14.960 We have, the money doesn't get to that. 0:54:15.040 --> 0:54:18.200 There's no javelins winding up outside of Ukraine, there's no 0:54:18.560 --> 0:54:23.960 agtms winding up out money. They're they're mostly getting weaponry though, 0:54:23.960 --> 0:54:27.400 they're getting Bradley's, they're getting Abrams tanks, they're. 0:54:27.160 --> 0:54:30.440 Getting been on the market selling those things. 0:54:30.520 --> 0:54:31.399 Where have they sold them? 0:54:31.440 --> 0:54:34.320 They've been caught three times selling selling where selling weapons 0:54:34.760 --> 0:54:36.520 where I'd have to go back and look, they've been 0:54:36.560 --> 0:54:39.560 caught three times selling plus. 0:54:39.239 --> 0:54:43.239 They have Now this was just a lie Ukraine has 0:54:43.239 --> 0:54:46.440 not been caught selling US weapons. Rudy only claims they 0:54:46.520 --> 0:54:49.200 have been because he's consumed a huge amount of Krimlin 0:54:49.239 --> 0:54:52.239 funded media that has been arguing since twenty twenty two 0:54:52.360 --> 0:54:54.839 that US weapons sent to Ukraine will end up on 0:54:54.880 --> 0:54:58.319 the black market. There's no outside evidence that shows that 0:54:58.360 --> 0:55:01.520 this has happened, and in fact is yusuf. A research 0:55:01.560 --> 0:55:04.960 analyst for the security think tank the Stimson Center recently 0:55:05.000 --> 0:55:08.719 told Business Insider, I don't think we've seen any real diversion, 0:55:08.880 --> 0:55:13.960 particularly outside the country of weapons. That article continues. Pro 0:55:14.040 --> 0:55:17.200 Russian media has aired similar claims of a massed diversion 0:55:17.239 --> 0:55:19.840 of arms meant for the front line, some citing a 0:55:19.880 --> 0:55:23.400 retracted CBS report that included a source claiming only thirty 0:55:23.400 --> 0:55:26.359 percent of weapons sent to Ukraine made it to the battlefield. 0:55:26.800 --> 0:55:31.480 One conspiracy Inclined website, purportedly citing anonymous Ukrainians, claimed the 0:55:31.520 --> 0:55:34.279 weapons are stolen to such a degree that Ukraine as 0:55:34.280 --> 0:55:36.840 of August had already lost the war because of the 0:55:36.880 --> 0:55:40.560 black market diversion. Now, in the months since that claim 0:55:40.640 --> 0:55:42.960 was made that Ukraine had lost the war because they 0:55:42.960 --> 0:55:45.239 had given up all of their weapons. They took a 0:55:45.280 --> 0:55:48.520 bunch of those weapons and invaded Russia, punching a hole 0:55:48.560 --> 0:55:51.520 through their lines and taking a considerable amount of territory 0:55:51.600 --> 0:55:55.719 in the Kursk region, which they occupy to an extent today. 0:55:56.320 --> 0:55:59.440 As is always the case with guys like Julian, reality 0:55:59.480 --> 0:56:02.720 doesn't matter here. It's about repeating the same talking points 0:56:02.800 --> 0:56:05.160 until you get a journalist ignorant enough to take them 0:56:05.200 --> 0:56:07.279 as true. And it's the kind of thing where if 0:56:07.320 --> 0:56:09.759 you're not up on all of the different claims being 0:56:09.800 --> 0:56:11.760 made on the right and all of the claims about 0:56:12.200 --> 0:56:16.680 corruption and money being siphoned off and taken by mobsters, 0:56:17.040 --> 0:56:19.120 then you're not going to be able to properly argue 0:56:19.120 --> 0:56:21.480 with them, right Like, if you don't really know what 0:56:21.520 --> 0:56:24.200 you're talking about, you might seed the point to Juliani 0:56:24.280 --> 0:56:26.400 that there have been at least three cases of the 0:56:26.480 --> 0:56:30.440 Ukrainians caught selling American weapons overseas. Now, when you look 0:56:30.480 --> 0:56:32.359 into what you see that this is primarily a claim 0:56:32.400 --> 0:56:34.719 that spreads on right wing Facebook pages and there's not 0:56:34.800 --> 0:56:38.200 really any evidence of a sizable diversion. But that doesn't 0:56:38.200 --> 0:56:41.239 really matter. What matters is in the moment, being able 0:56:41.280 --> 0:56:44.040 to kind of spread a point out to the extent 0:56:44.080 --> 0:56:46.080 that nobody really questions you want it. 0:56:46.200 --> 0:56:47.160 And I don't know. 0:56:48.000 --> 0:56:50.759 It's the kind of thing that happens a lot in politics, 0:56:50.880 --> 0:56:53.719 and it's the kind of thing that is probably pointless 0:56:53.800 --> 0:56:56.719 to really address, right Like me arguing with Rudy Giuliani 0:56:56.800 --> 0:56:59.359 got him hot and flustered and kind of pissed off, 0:56:59.400 --> 0:57:03.319 and certainly me frustrated. But I don't think it accomplished much. 0:57:03.360 --> 0:57:06.200 And I really I think kind of the thing that 0:57:06.239 --> 0:57:08.640 you have to accept when you're looking at sort of 0:57:08.719 --> 0:57:11.719 right wing lies about what's happening in Ukraine or the 0:57:11.760 --> 0:57:14.920 lies being told right now about you know, Springfield, Ohio 0:57:15.040 --> 0:57:18.360 and the Haitian migrant population over there, there's really a 0:57:18.480 --> 0:57:22.400 very little point in actually confronting these people directly about 0:57:22.480 --> 0:57:26.320 the disinformation that they put out, because it's not really 0:57:26.640 --> 0:57:28.960 a case where they care about the truth one way 0:57:29.040 --> 0:57:32.120 or the other. It's a matter of you've kind of 0:57:32.200 --> 0:57:36.280 lost the fight if you care at all about trying 0:57:36.320 --> 0:57:39.240 to prove reality to them, you know. And that's kind 0:57:39.280 --> 0:57:42.600 of a bummer note to end this on. But I 0:57:42.600 --> 0:57:45.880 guess I don't really have anything optimistic to say. I 0:57:46.000 --> 0:57:48.600 just thought you'd be interested in my little conversation with 0:57:48.680 --> 0:57:52.400 Rudy Giuliani and some of the talking points that are 0:57:52.520 --> 0:57:54.920 continuing to spread up along the right. So you know, 0:57:54.960 --> 0:57:57.120 at the very least, maybe the next time you wind 0:57:57.200 --> 0:58:00.760 up in an argument this Thanksgiving with your uncle Ukraine, 0:58:01.240 --> 0:58:03.800 you'll be kind of wary for some of the arguments 0:58:03.800 --> 0:58:05.960 he's going to bring out, you know, to the extent 0:58:06.000 --> 0:58:09.480 that that does anybody any good until next time. I'm 0:58:09.520 --> 0:58:12.640 Robert Evans and this is It Could Happen Here. If 0:58:12.680 --> 0:58:14.880 you want to see these sources for this episode and 0:58:14.880 --> 0:58:17.560 do some reading yourself, they're in the show notes, so 0:58:17.680 --> 0:58:40.440 just check them out there and we will be back tomorrow. 0:58:40.480 --> 0:58:43.600 Welcome to It Could Happen Here. My name is Garrison Davis. 0:58:43.720 --> 0:58:46.320 I am joined by James Stout and Nia Wong to 0:58:46.400 --> 0:58:49.560 talk about some of our favorite people to hate, the 0:58:49.600 --> 0:58:50.760 Heritage Foundation. 0:58:50.920 --> 0:58:52.800 Hello everybody, Hi Garrison. 0:58:53.200 --> 0:58:55.840 Hello, Oh god, I got brought in talked with the 0:58:55.880 --> 0:58:56.840 Heritage Foundation. 0:58:57.120 --> 0:58:59.640 Oh no, what a week? What a week? 0:59:00.320 --> 0:59:02.840 So I mean, people have been talking a lot about 0:59:02.880 --> 0:59:06.200 the Heritage Foundations Project twenty twenty five because it is 0:59:06.480 --> 0:59:10.360 a massive, massive document that is honestly too long to 0:59:10.400 --> 0:59:14.440 actually read, but it does it does focus on LGBTQ 0:59:14.680 --> 0:59:17.840 issues for a decent a decent chunk of the book, 0:59:18.040 --> 0:59:22.120 mainly finding different ways to both legalize and protect discrimination 0:59:23.080 --> 0:59:28.120 against LGBTQ people and like banning the public presence of 0:59:28.200 --> 0:59:34.480 LGBTQ materials deemed deemed pornographic in public life, especially schools, libraries, 0:59:34.840 --> 0:59:35.240 all that. 0:59:35.200 --> 0:59:35.760 Kind of stuff. 0:59:35.880 --> 0:59:39.280 Right, It's kind of this this nationwide don't say gay 0:59:39.280 --> 0:59:44.520 bill type thing, along with legalizing and protecting people's people's 0:59:44.600 --> 0:59:49.200 right to discriminate against for people. So that's kind of 0:59:50.320 --> 0:59:53.200 the bulk of the of the of the tactics that 0:59:53.240 --> 0:59:56.919 are laid out in the Heritage Foundation's Project twenty twenty five. 0:59:57.160 --> 0:59:59.000 But Trump and a whole bunch of Republicans have been 0:59:59.040 --> 1:00:02.320 doing a lot of work to distance themselves from this document. 1:00:02.880 --> 1:00:05.120 At the RNC, I was kind of surprised that, like, 1:00:05.400 --> 1:00:07.720 I did not hear a single, a single mention of 1:00:07.760 --> 1:00:10.080 Project twenty twenty five unless I was the one to 1:00:10.120 --> 1:00:11.840 bring it up when talking with people. 1:00:12.240 --> 1:00:12.640 They didn't. 1:00:12.640 --> 1:00:14.160 They didn't like talking about it because they know it's 1:00:14.240 --> 1:00:17.520 kind of just like this toxic thing now. They kind 1:00:17.720 --> 1:00:20.360 they kind of showed their power level to use to 1:00:20.440 --> 1:00:22.480 use an ancient phrase. 1:00:22.640 --> 1:00:24.960 Yeah, who could possibly have guessed for the document where 1:00:24.960 --> 1:00:27.439 they talk about bringing back the gold standard was going 1:00:27.440 --> 1:00:30.760 to be unpopular with literally everyone, including their own base. 1:00:31.040 --> 1:00:33.480 Yeah, I mean, I don't think that's the reason why 1:00:33.520 --> 1:00:36.360 it's unpopular. I think it's all of like the dictator 1:00:36.480 --> 1:00:40.720 fascism stuff. But the gold standard bit's pretty funny. Even 1:00:40.800 --> 1:00:44.240 at the Heritage Foundation booth, not a peep about Project 1:00:44.280 --> 1:00:46.840 twenty twenty five. It's like the biggest thing they've done 1:00:46.880 --> 1:00:49.320 in like the in the last decade, arguably not a 1:00:49.360 --> 1:00:52.960 single peep. But they did have a whole bunch of 1:00:53.160 --> 1:00:56.880 other like merch, a whole bunch of little pamphlets, papers. 1:00:56.920 --> 1:00:59.600 I love papers. I love little documents, some little ephemera 1:01:00.080 --> 1:01:03.120 to de femera. Yeah, I love collecting all this little stuff. 1:01:03.120 --> 1:01:04.880 And it just sits on a pile on my desk 1:01:05.000 --> 1:01:07.600 for like, way too long. And in this case, it's 1:01:07.600 --> 1:01:09.640 set on a pile on my desk for about two 1:01:09.640 --> 1:01:12.600 months and the pile became too big and too unruly. 1:01:13.120 --> 1:01:15.120 And now we're going to actually go through the pile 1:01:15.160 --> 1:01:19.040 of stuff, right and talk about the types of things 1:01:19.080 --> 1:01:22.600 that the Heritage Foundation actually did have out on their table, 1:01:22.680 --> 1:01:27.760 specifically relating to gender identity. Oh good, which is their 1:01:27.920 --> 1:01:32.240 term of choice for these issues. Now, like gender identity 1:01:32.320 --> 1:01:37.480 quote unquote transgenderism were frequent talking points at the Republican 1:01:37.520 --> 1:01:40.280 National Convention, way more so than the Democratic National Convention, 1:01:40.360 --> 1:01:43.400 in which they were kind of just brushed aside as 1:01:43.400 --> 1:01:46.080 a political inconvenience. But at the R and C these 1:01:46.080 --> 1:01:48.960 things were front and center. Almost every single person giving 1:01:48.960 --> 1:01:52.360 a speech on the main stage at least name dropped 1:01:52.560 --> 1:01:56.680 gender ideology in some way to receive thunderous applause from 1:01:56.680 --> 1:01:59.960 the crowd. So it certainly was a very common topic 1:02:00.040 --> 1:02:03.080 brought up. And here's what the actual literature that was 1:02:03.120 --> 1:02:05.560 proliferating at the event had to say about it. 1:02:06.000 --> 1:02:07.200 So let's let's start. 1:02:07.240 --> 1:02:10.640 Let's start penphlet number one, how to speak up about 1:02:10.680 --> 1:02:15.640 gender identity, questions and answers driving the debate, So it's 1:02:15.640 --> 1:02:18.400 a debate, is the first thing we want we need 1:02:18.440 --> 1:02:23.200 to know about gender identity? Again, I'm not just reading 1:02:23.240 --> 1:02:25.640 out all of their propaganda. I think there is some 1:02:25.880 --> 1:02:28.560 use in actually learning what they're saying in like their 1:02:28.560 --> 1:02:33.200 biggest convention and then actually not like debunking, because like, 1:02:33.560 --> 1:02:36.080 come on, I know who our audience is. But at 1:02:36.160 --> 1:02:38.920 least actually laying out what they're saying and how it 1:02:38.960 --> 1:02:41.760 relates to like the actual information I think does does 1:02:41.800 --> 1:02:44.360 have sub use. So I will I will be quoting 1:02:44.360 --> 1:02:47.560 from the Heritage Foundation saying some pretty stupid things, but 1:02:47.640 --> 1:02:50.840 then we will kind of springboard discussion, and I do 1:02:50.920 --> 1:02:54.600 have some some little fact checks on some of the 1:02:54.880 --> 1:02:57.200 like these very common lies that you're now seeing like 1:02:57.400 --> 1:02:59.720 get repeated so often you may be trying to be 1:02:59.760 --> 1:03:02.560 tricked into thinking that they are real. So we're going 1:03:02.600 --> 1:03:06.040 to tackle the quote unquote the big questions. What are sex, 1:03:06.200 --> 1:03:09.520 gender and gender identity. I'm sure this five page pamphlet 1:03:09.720 --> 1:03:11.320 will tell me all I need to know about the 1:03:11.360 --> 1:03:14.360 topics of what our sex, gender, gender identity. 1:03:14.800 --> 1:03:16.840 Yeah, I can't wait to learn they figured it out, 1:03:16.960 --> 1:03:17.800 They figured it out. 1:03:17.960 --> 1:03:23.760 There's this centuries long discussions have been haven't resolved. What 1:03:23.800 --> 1:03:27.080 do gender dysporia and transgender mean? And how do gender 1:03:27.120 --> 1:03:31.080 identity policies affect me and my community? I think this 1:03:31.200 --> 1:03:34.080 is largely targeted towards like I mean, it's turned towards 1:03:34.120 --> 1:03:36.880 people at the RNC, so like people in like their sixties, 1:03:36.920 --> 1:03:37.960 like like grandparents. 1:03:38.160 --> 1:03:39.959 Yeah, is this so how to talk to your friend 1:03:40.000 --> 1:03:41.960 about the transgenders. 1:03:41.240 --> 1:03:45.320 But kind of kind of it's more so like, oh no, 1:03:45.880 --> 1:03:51.720 your grandkids are maybe a little gay with it, grandchild? 1:03:52.040 --> 1:03:55.080 Exactly what does that mean? What is that about? I 1:03:55.080 --> 1:03:58.560 think that's kind of what the main the main demographic is. Okay, anyway, 1:03:58.600 --> 1:04:02.520 here we go. The common understanding that there are only 1:04:02.560 --> 1:04:06.080 two sexes and human beings male and female, determined by 1:04:06.120 --> 1:04:09.640 each person's biology, has been the cultural norm and the 1:04:09.680 --> 1:04:14.640 basis for our laws since our nation's founding it, though, 1:04:14.800 --> 1:04:16.240 has it that's a good question. 1:04:16.440 --> 1:04:18.040 I'm not going to do this because I go fund 1:04:18.040 --> 1:04:20.200 will take fucking an hour, but this isn't true. 1:04:20.400 --> 1:04:23.520 It will and obviously they're not going to mention intersex people. 1:04:23.520 --> 1:04:25.600 They're not going to mention any any of that stuff. 1:04:25.680 --> 1:04:30.200 Yeah, or that like every indigenous culture has multiple gender words. 1:04:30.320 --> 1:04:32.080 Yeah no, no, no, no, we'll just leave that out. 1:04:32.160 --> 1:04:35.360 Because only recently have we seen a shift away from 1:04:35.360 --> 1:04:41.800 this objective and scientific no citation understanding towards an ideology 1:04:41.840 --> 1:04:44.800 that says a person's gender is determined by what they 1:04:44.880 --> 1:04:49.760 believe they are parenthesis gender identity rather than their biological sex, 1:04:50.080 --> 1:04:54.800 and should be legally recognized. The transgender movement has rapidly 1:04:54.920 --> 1:05:00.120 advanced laws and policies that give special rights and protections 1:05:00.160 --> 1:05:06.080 to some people while infringing on the rights of others. Now, 1:05:06.120 --> 1:05:08.000 this is this is a talking point that was brought 1:05:08.040 --> 1:05:10.640 up a lot when I was a kid around trans people. 1:05:10.720 --> 1:05:14.080 How they have special laws that give them more rights 1:05:14.080 --> 1:05:16.800 than your average person. And that's why, like a good 1:05:16.880 --> 1:05:20.200 like conservative basis should be opposed to them, even if 1:05:20.240 --> 1:05:23.080 you're like, you know, an accepting you may not like 1:05:23.120 --> 1:05:24.840 agree with them, but you're not going to kill them, 1:05:25.280 --> 1:05:29.080 but they shouldn't have like extra rights. That was that 1:05:29.160 --> 1:05:33.000 was a big thing, is framing things that either protect 1:05:33.040 --> 1:05:36.160 trans people from discrimination or framing things that ensure their 1:05:36.200 --> 1:05:39.000 healthcare as like special extra rights not provided to like 1:05:39.080 --> 1:05:41.080 regular regular Americans. 1:05:41.480 --> 1:05:43.560 Yeah, this is like a huge thing with just the 1:05:43.560 --> 1:05:46.680 basis of all political conservatism is they all believe that, 1:05:46.880 --> 1:05:49.600 like like they all believe that immigrants have like a 1:05:49.680 --> 1:05:52.440 secret healthcare system that they have access to, and that 1:05:52.520 --> 1:05:54.720 like black people have like welfare, and that like indigenous 1:05:54.720 --> 1:05:56.360 people get into schools for free. 1:05:56.400 --> 1:05:59.680 And it's just like yep, no, it's all based on 1:05:59.760 --> 1:06:01.680 never talking to anyone who isn't like you. 1:06:01.960 --> 1:06:02.720 Yeah. 1:06:02.800 --> 1:06:07.560 In addressing the conflicts that emerge. In addressing the conflicts that. 1:06:07.560 --> 1:06:08.960 Emerge, what are you talking about? 1:06:10.600 --> 1:06:15.280 The government must protect everyone's rights and fundamental freedoms. The 1:06:15.320 --> 1:06:19.680 introduction of the concept of gender identity into recent legislation 1:06:20.040 --> 1:06:24.360 raises concerns about privacy, safety, fairness, liberty, and its impact 1:06:24.400 --> 1:06:29.160 on children. It threatens the freedom of religion and conscience. 1:06:30.400 --> 1:06:35.520 What the freedom of conscience? What does that mean? 1:06:37.200 --> 1:06:41.320 Because it's not just a religious objection. My conscience tells 1:06:41.400 --> 1:06:45.160 me that trans people are icky, tells me I should 1:06:45.200 --> 1:06:46.960 have this person's house. Does that let me have it? 1:06:47.560 --> 1:06:48.880 I mean it should yeah. 1:06:49.040 --> 1:06:50.800 Yeah, yeah, My conscience tells me a whole lot of shit. 1:06:51.680 --> 1:06:54.960 It means you can't not like trans people. The government's 1:06:55.000 --> 1:06:56.760 going to come for you if you don't like trans people. 1:06:56.880 --> 1:06:57.520 Is that what they mean? 1:06:57.720 --> 1:07:00.720 I think they are legitimately scared of that. Yeah. But 1:07:00.840 --> 1:07:05.400 it also threatens freedom of speech, equal protection, and parental rights. 1:07:05.960 --> 1:07:09.880 This radical redefinition of sex could dramatically alter our society, 1:07:10.080 --> 1:07:15.120 creating significant disadvantages for some, particularly women and girls. Okay, 1:07:15.160 --> 1:07:17.520 all right, so there we go. That's that's that is. 1:07:17.600 --> 1:07:22.959 That is the introduction. Now onto page two. All individuals 1:07:23.000 --> 1:07:26.480 have human dignity and should be treated with respect citation needed, 1:07:28.640 --> 1:07:33.280 including those who identify as transgender and knowe. They're very 1:07:33.280 --> 1:07:36.920 careful to never actually say trans people are transgender people. 1:07:37.080 --> 1:07:41.360 There's people who identify transgender, and there's there's transgender activists 1:07:41.680 --> 1:07:45.920 and gender ideology activists. They take great care to never 1:07:45.960 --> 1:07:49.800 actually say trans people are doing this. They say transactivists 1:07:49.840 --> 1:07:53.240 are doing this increases degree of separation. That that's one 1:07:53.320 --> 1:07:56.600 kind of a little rhetorical tactic that I noticed when 1:07:56.600 --> 1:07:57.360 first looking through this. 1:07:57.720 --> 1:07:59.920 Yeah, I think there's this also kind of a lake 1:08:00.200 --> 1:08:03.440 see of this sort of trans tipping point and how 1:08:03.680 --> 1:08:06.360 accepted things had gotten. We're like, I remember this with 1:08:06.440 --> 1:08:09.640 like Alex Jones in like like even like twenty twenty two, 1:08:09.760 --> 1:08:11.840 twenty twenty three would say, like the most transphobic thing 1:08:11.880 --> 1:08:15.080 you've ever heard, but it would be prefaced with some 1:08:15.280 --> 1:08:16.719 trans people or fine people. 1:08:16.760 --> 1:08:17.439 I don't mean this. 1:08:17.439 --> 1:08:22.280 Toage people then say like, yeah, coming to rape your 1:08:22.280 --> 1:08:23.240 dog or something. 1:08:23.600 --> 1:08:25.040 Yeah, yeah, anyway. 1:08:26.000 --> 1:08:31.360 But by labeling realistic concerns and scientific objections as oppressive, 1:08:32.080 --> 1:08:37.320 transgender activists have shut down open, robust dialogue over the 1:08:37.360 --> 1:08:41.719 consequences of gender ideology and gender identity policies. The serious 1:08:41.800 --> 1:08:45.160 real world effects of gender identity policies on individuals and 1:08:45.160 --> 1:08:49.479 communities must be taken into consideration. Many treatments promoted by 1:08:49.560 --> 1:08:55.040 transgender activists are untested, can cause serious side effects and 1:08:55.120 --> 1:08:59.720 come with irreversible developmental consequences when performed on children. So 1:08:59.840 --> 1:09:02.800 this is my first kind of pause, because this is 1:09:02.840 --> 1:09:05.240 a claim that we've been seeing, i would say, at 1:09:05.240 --> 1:09:07.960 an increasing rate ever since Matt Walsh's documentary. This was 1:09:08.000 --> 1:09:10.160 like one thing that he really tried to like invent 1:09:10.840 --> 1:09:15.640 specifically that like quote unquote like puberty blockers cause like sterilization. 1:09:16.120 --> 1:09:18.959 I'm like, yeah, you can't reproduce when you're on them, obviously, 1:09:19.040 --> 1:09:21.400 but you can when you go off them. But that's 1:09:21.400 --> 1:09:23.640 something that like they never talk about. They frame it 1:09:23.680 --> 1:09:28.400 as like this permanent thing. Samantha Rosenthal has an opendent 1:09:28.400 --> 1:09:30.600 piece in the La Times that talks about like the 1:09:30.720 --> 1:09:33.559 very long history of trans healthcare in the United States. 1:09:33.840 --> 1:09:37.000 Modern trans healthcare goes back to the nineteen sixties, and 1:09:37.120 --> 1:09:39.920 hormone therapy has been used to assist cisgender children in 1:09:39.960 --> 1:09:42.960 puberty since at least the nineteen forties. These these things 1:09:43.000 --> 1:09:45.599 are not untested, These are medical practices with a long 1:09:45.720 --> 1:09:49.640 history and saying that there's there's irreversible developmental consequences when 1:09:49.640 --> 1:09:53.120 performed on children, Like the FDA approved hormone blockers for 1:09:53.200 --> 1:09:56.400 children back in nineteen ninety three. We have been using 1:09:56.400 --> 1:09:59.240 these for for quite a long time, and these false 1:09:59.240 --> 1:10:02.760 claims are actually seeing some like significant harm. I'm gonna 1:10:02.880 --> 1:10:04.200 quote from ABC News here. 1:10:04.400 --> 1:10:04.839 Quote. 1:10:05.280 --> 1:10:08.080 England's National Health Service has banned the use of puberty 1:10:08.080 --> 1:10:10.200 blockers for the treatment of gendernus for you, or gender 1:10:10.280 --> 1:10:13.920 incongruence in transgender minors. The NHS has not stated it 1:10:13.960 --> 1:10:17.160 will restrict puberty blockers for non transgender children and young people. 1:10:17.280 --> 1:10:20.280 An NHS spokesperson told ABC News the agency hopes to 1:10:20.280 --> 1:10:22.120 have a study into the use of puberty blockers in 1:10:22.160 --> 1:10:25.160 place by December of this year, with eligibility criteria yet 1:10:25.160 --> 1:10:27.960 to be decided unquote. So they are just like starting 1:10:28.000 --> 1:10:30.000 to ban these, and of course we've seen this in 1:10:30.120 --> 1:10:32.080 the United States as well, but this is like the 1:10:32.160 --> 1:10:34.400 National Health Service, this is like a really a really 1:10:34.400 --> 1:10:38.479 big organization that's only banning it for trans people, not 1:10:38.640 --> 1:10:39.759 versus gender children. 1:10:40.360 --> 1:10:40.559 Yep. 1:10:41.120 --> 1:10:42.800 So like it's really devastating. 1:10:43.400 --> 1:10:46.040 I think it's important to note too, that this is 1:10:46.200 --> 1:10:49.280 the exact one of the exact same lines that anti 1:10:49.320 --> 1:10:52.200 vaxxers use, and you know that's anti vax campaigns have 1:10:52.280 --> 1:10:55.240 been a lot of those sort of model for how 1:10:55.400 --> 1:10:57.200 how attax and transalth care works. But like, yeah, this 1:10:57.479 --> 1:10:59.880 is this is literally the lie that these same people 1:11:00.160 --> 1:11:02.919 we'll say about vaccines. It's like, oh, the RNA vaccine 1:11:03.000 --> 1:11:05.360 is like an untested Yeah, yeah. 1:11:05.640 --> 1:11:08.759 We tested it a motion of the population and everyone's fine. 1:11:08.880 --> 1:11:12.799 So you know, I did a clinical trial for COVID 1:11:12.880 --> 1:11:16.040 vaccines before they were really suited thousands of other people. 1:11:16.120 --> 1:11:16.920 Yeah no. 1:11:17.040 --> 1:11:20.400 And in terms of puberty blockers, these have been used 1:11:20.400 --> 1:11:23.000 and tested for decades. Like these are not a new technology. 1:11:23.040 --> 1:11:25.280 It's even funnier because again it's like, well, well, okay, 1:11:25.320 --> 1:11:27.920 so like we will give them to CIS children. 1:11:31.160 --> 1:11:31.960 End with this stuff. 1:11:32.479 --> 1:11:34.400 It shows I think it is I'm I read one 1:11:34.439 --> 1:11:37.799 other quote from a SABC article quote The Endocrine Society 1:11:37.800 --> 1:11:41.680 and a national organization of more than eighteen thousand endercronologists, 1:11:41.880 --> 1:11:45.759 calls the medication quote unquote fully reversible. Once blockers are stopped, 1:11:45.800 --> 1:11:48.639 puberty continues with little to no proven side effects. According 1:11:48.640 --> 1:11:51.639 to health professionals, unquote. And there was a recent study 1:11:51.640 --> 1:11:54.800 in twenty twenty two in the journal Jama which found 1:11:54.840 --> 1:11:57.280 the use of puberty blocking drugs did not lead to 1:11:57.320 --> 1:12:01.240 an increased chance of receiving gender affirmat therapy in the future, 1:12:01.360 --> 1:12:04.960 and actually we're slightly less likely to given the extra 1:12:05.040 --> 1:12:07.439 time to explore gender in the body without the onset 1:12:07.520 --> 1:12:12.080 of irreversible effects of puberty. Possible bone density losses largely 1:12:12.120 --> 1:12:15.320 remediated upon the presence of sex hormones, whether from either 1:12:15.400 --> 1:12:19.000 just ceasing the blockers or starting HRT. And this study 1:12:19.000 --> 1:12:22.000 also says at the end that perhaps we should just 1:12:22.000 --> 1:12:25.200 stop using the term puberty blocker, because it makes it 1:12:25.200 --> 1:12:28.000 sound like it just completely blocks puberty, like from ever happening, 1:12:28.040 --> 1:12:31.400 Like it just is like now you don't go through puberty. Yeah, 1:12:32.000 --> 1:12:34.400 And instead opts to say, like, maybe we should just 1:12:34.760 --> 1:12:38.439 describe what the drug does mechanistically and clinically, because maybe 1:12:38.439 --> 1:12:41.720 maybe puberty blockers is just a it implies something more 1:12:41.760 --> 1:12:44.519 than what the drug actually like does temporarily. Yeah. So 1:12:45.240 --> 1:12:47.720 I found that to be an interesting note. And the 1:12:47.960 --> 1:12:50.280 whole point of and this something we'll probably talk about later. 1:12:50.280 --> 1:12:52.280 The whole point of this drug is so that you 1:12:52.320 --> 1:12:55.719 can have more time to actually decide what you want 1:12:55.720 --> 1:12:58.479 to do with your body and your gender. And most 1:12:58.520 --> 1:13:02.080 people that do go on on blockers, with whether SIS 1:13:02.160 --> 1:13:06.160 or not, are doing it to prevent irreversible changes from huberty, 1:13:06.720 --> 1:13:10.920 and most people opt to not actually go on cross 1:13:10.960 --> 1:13:14.240 sex hormones. And that's like a successful treatment like that 1:13:14.360 --> 1:13:16.640 is that that is what the drug is supposed to do. 1:13:17.120 --> 1:13:19.720 But there's definitely this idea among these like anti transactivists 1:13:19.760 --> 1:13:22.200 that like, if you go on blockers, that means you're 1:13:22.439 --> 1:13:24.800 more likely to become quote unquote like fully trends in 1:13:24.840 --> 1:13:26.880 the future, which also just like isn't true. 1:13:27.880 --> 1:13:30.520 But do you know what is reversible? 1:13:31.439 --> 1:13:34.120 Not liking their products and services and support this podcast. 1:13:34.439 --> 1:13:36.760 You can you can reverse that and make it so 1:13:36.840 --> 1:13:40.200 you really like them, which helps us a little bit. 1:13:40.320 --> 1:13:42.679 Probably I assume I don't know. I think so, I don't. 1:13:42.920 --> 1:13:44.400 I don't I don't do the business thing. 1:13:44.600 --> 1:13:57.559 Anyway. Here are the ads. Okay, we are back. 1:13:58.400 --> 1:14:02.879 Let let's continue this fine literature from our good enemies 1:14:02.920 --> 1:14:04.240 at the Heritage Foundation. 1:14:04.680 --> 1:14:08.000 Yeah, great art and layout. As what I'm noticing it 1:14:08.240 --> 1:14:09.639 it is it is very well designed. 1:14:09.720 --> 1:14:13.520 Yeah, there's these there are some children, these poor kids, 1:14:13.800 --> 1:14:15.920 these poor stock photos of children. 1:14:16.040 --> 1:14:20.080 Yeah, I'm sure, I'm sure they gave the heartfelt consent 1:14:20.160 --> 1:14:22.560 to being used in it hate propaganda. 1:14:23.280 --> 1:14:27.000 The next section is called what are sex, gender, and 1:14:27.080 --> 1:14:32.519 gender identity? The best biology, psychology, and philosophy. All support 1:14:32.600 --> 1:14:36.280 and understanding that sex is of bodily reality and that 1:14:36.479 --> 1:14:39.479 gender is a social manifestation of bodily sex. 1:14:39.920 --> 1:14:41.640 The best biology. 1:14:41.760 --> 1:14:49.960 That's simply the best philosophy. 1:14:47.880 --> 1:14:51.200 Yeah, oh my god. 1:14:52.000 --> 1:14:56.880 Now this claim actually does have a citation, so it's true. Now, 1:14:56.960 --> 1:15:00.800 let me check the citation. The citation is oh oh 1:15:00.880 --> 1:15:03.519 oh wait, wait wait oh, the citation is when Harry 1:15:03.520 --> 1:15:07.080 became Sally responding to the transgender movement the Anti trans 1:15:07.080 --> 1:15:09.120 Book of two eighteen by Ryan T. 1:15:09.240 --> 1:15:09.760 Anderson. 1:15:09.880 --> 1:15:14.639 Oh god, that's not a real philosophy, biology, or psychology book. 1:15:14.720 --> 1:15:18.400 Oh okay, well he won best Philosopher anyway, I don't 1:15:18.400 --> 1:15:19.320 know what you're talking about. 1:15:21.040 --> 1:15:26.120 The best all agree, that's so good now. Sex sex 1:15:26.200 --> 1:15:30.560 is a biological reality referring to an organism's overall organization 1:15:30.640 --> 1:15:33.800 towards sexual reproduction in human beings, just like every other 1:15:33.880 --> 1:15:37.920 species that sexually reproduces. This organism includes the chromosomes we 1:15:38.000 --> 1:15:41.879 inherit from our parents and the reproductive organs systems natalia 1:15:41.920 --> 1:15:44.680 and hormones that developed as a consequence. As there are 1:15:44.720 --> 1:15:49.320 two reproductive systems, there are two sexes, just like every 1:15:49.400 --> 1:15:54.200 other species that sexually reproduces. This is completely consistent. I 1:15:54.240 --> 1:15:56.840 get no citation because that's not That is not how 1:15:56.880 --> 1:16:01.519 biology actually works. No, nor is your Italian necessarily determined 1:16:01.520 --> 1:16:07.519 by your chromosomes. Nope, but sure, why not? The best 1:16:07.560 --> 1:16:11.599 biology all support this understanding? Yeah, yeah, the. 1:16:11.400 --> 1:16:13.760 Best biology from a first grade textbook. 1:16:14.200 --> 1:16:16.559 Actually, that's unfair to first grade textbooks, which are largely 1:16:16.600 --> 1:16:17.679 blameless in this matter. 1:16:18.040 --> 1:16:19.120 It is. It is unfair. 1:16:19.680 --> 1:16:22.960 Yeah, No, one's sticking genitalia in a first grade textbook. 1:16:23.520 --> 1:16:26.880 This organization isn't just the best way to figure out 1:16:26.920 --> 1:16:31.599 which sex you are, it's the only way to make 1:16:31.680 --> 1:16:34.000 sense of the concepts of male and female. 1:16:34.360 --> 1:16:37.880 Really really yeah, the only way. Yeah. 1:16:37.920 --> 1:16:41.639 What an interesting sociological statement made by the Heritage Foundation. Yeah, 1:16:41.760 --> 1:16:45.559 that the only differences are purely mechanistical and there really 1:16:45.640 --> 1:16:49.200 is no social basis that determines what the concepts in 1:16:49.240 --> 1:16:52.240 male and female relate to. What an interesting opinion that 1:16:52.280 --> 1:16:55.760 I'm sure is consistent across all of the heritage foundations. 1:16:55.240 --> 1:16:57.680 And yeah, it's going to say, you can pull out 1:16:57.680 --> 1:17:00.559 another booklet and call them on their ship with their words. 1:17:01.560 --> 1:17:05.160 Gender, by contrast, is the way one expresses their biological sex. 1:17:05.400 --> 1:17:08.280 We shouldn't pretend that there are no differences between male 1:17:08.320 --> 1:17:12.160 and female, because biological reality is that there are. We 1:17:12.320 --> 1:17:17.160 also shouldn't be trapped in rigid gender stereotypes. Transgender activists 1:17:17.640 --> 1:17:21.519 deny that sex is a bodily reality. They argue one 1:17:21.600 --> 1:17:24.559 it's perceived gender identity represents to a person really is, 1:17:24.600 --> 1:17:27.880 even if it goes against their biological sex. They deny 1:17:27.880 --> 1:17:30.800 their biological reality by suggesting that biological sex is merely 1:17:30.840 --> 1:17:34.439 assigned at birth. A little known fun fact, you actually 1:17:34.439 --> 1:17:38.800 can like scientifically change your biological sex. Yeah, rules, it 1:17:38.840 --> 1:17:40.559 takes a little bit of time, it takes a little 1:17:40.560 --> 1:17:42.800 bit of effort, but your biological sex can actually just 1:17:42.840 --> 1:17:44.760 be like completely changed. This is something that is not 1:17:45.320 --> 1:17:45.960 like set. 1:17:46.720 --> 1:17:50.759 Also, there is literally there is literally physically a document 1:17:51.000 --> 1:17:52.920 where your doctor assigns. 1:17:52.400 --> 1:17:56.240 You a sex at birth. I come on, yeah, no, 1:17:57.000 --> 1:17:58.960 it is a box that they must take. 1:17:59.080 --> 1:18:01.599 It's not even like not a line that they get 1:18:01.640 --> 1:18:03.360 to write in whatever they want, you know, like. 1:18:03.880 --> 1:18:05.920 But the cool thing is is that when you change 1:18:05.960 --> 1:18:09.839 with sex hormones your body is dominant in it actually 1:18:09.920 --> 1:18:12.920 changes the sex and the functions of your body. Pretty 1:18:12.920 --> 1:18:16.240 interesting stuff. Actually, I don't care about my chromosomes, but 1:18:16.400 --> 1:18:18.519 as soon as we want to do more gene tampering, 1:18:18.560 --> 1:18:22.320 I guess that that could be fun, but I don't 1:18:22.320 --> 1:18:26.040 really care. You can also change body parts, so that's cool. 1:18:26.240 --> 1:18:29.040 I know they're working on those womb transplants, but I'm 1:18:29.040 --> 1:18:33.720 not into that freaky stuff anyway. According to the American 1:18:33.800 --> 1:18:37.800 Psychological Association, gender identity refers to a person's internal sense 1:18:37.840 --> 1:18:42.280 of being male, female, or something else. Hey, something else nice. 1:18:42.560 --> 1:18:47.160 It is distinct from either sex or gender activists claim 1:18:47.240 --> 1:18:50.719 it is a person's internal sense of gender activists claim. 1:18:52.479 --> 1:18:54.880 They also assert that it's more than just male or female. 1:18:54.880 --> 1:18:57.559 It's fluid and there's a spectrum of various options beyond 1:18:57.560 --> 1:19:01.680 man and woman, like gender fluid, intern gender, or non binary. 1:19:01.840 --> 1:19:05.760 I've never heard the term intergender before. That's yeah, that's 1:19:05.920 --> 1:19:06.519 it's a new one. 1:19:07.120 --> 1:19:09.880 Well, I guess if thatnoledge the existence of intersex people, 1:19:09.880 --> 1:19:12.160 that kind of fucks up the premise of the whole thing. 1:19:12.520 --> 1:19:14.160 No, this is intergen Maybe. 1:19:13.880 --> 1:19:16.640 That's what Yeah, but again, maybe maybe that's what it is. 1:19:16.680 --> 1:19:20.200 They can't say intersect. Yeah, it destroys their whole ship. 1:19:20.479 --> 1:19:22.840 So they've transposed intersex. 1:19:22.920 --> 1:19:25.120 Is it like an identity, it's like an actual, like 1:19:25.640 --> 1:19:27.240 completely like medical thing. 1:19:27.560 --> 1:19:31.000 I don't think that they fully understand this shit, Garrison. 1:19:31.400 --> 1:19:34.080 I think it's it's you're right, You're sorry. Sorry, I forgot. 1:19:34.120 --> 1:19:35.800 I'm reading from a heritage, but. 1:19:37.240 --> 1:19:39.000 Maybe coming from a place of hate. 1:19:39.680 --> 1:19:43.360 All right, let's let's talk about gender dysphoria now. Let's 1:19:43.840 --> 1:19:47.000 Dysphoria refers to the distress someone experiences when they have 1:19:47.000 --> 1:19:49.599 a disconnection between their bodily, sex, and internal sense of gender. 1:19:50.360 --> 1:19:54.080 The diagnostic label gender entity disorder was used by the 1:19:54.200 --> 1:19:58.080 DSM until it's reclassification as a gender dysphoria in twenty 1:19:58.120 --> 1:20:01.000 thirteen with the release of the DSM five. They really 1:20:01.000 --> 1:20:04.240 want that old DSM back. They want it back before 1:20:04.280 --> 1:20:08.400 the DSM went woke. They really want DSM four. Transgender 1:20:08.439 --> 1:20:10.040 can refer to a man who identifies as a woman 1:20:10.160 --> 1:20:12.080 or a woman who identifies as man some activists. 1:20:12.280 --> 1:20:14.840 Some activists go so far as. 1:20:14.760 --> 1:20:19.880 To say that a trans woman is a woman crazy. 1:20:22.400 --> 1:20:24.839 Not all people who suffer from gender and dysphoria identify 1:20:24.840 --> 1:20:27.040 as transgender, and not everyone who dentifies the transgender sefer 1:20:27.040 --> 1:20:32.560 from gender dysphoria. Surprisingly woke statement. It's a surprisingly controversial 1:20:32.560 --> 1:20:36.920 and woke statement from Heritage Foundation here, anti transmend anti 1:20:37.000 --> 1:20:42.639 truthcum Air foundation. What the fuck base, it's the seven 1:20:42.680 --> 1:20:45.920 people who get that, you're welcome for everyone else. 1:20:46.000 --> 1:20:49.240 I swear to God, that's very funny. It's it's a 1:20:49.280 --> 1:20:53.800 little funny. Oh the funny. 1:20:55.960 --> 1:20:59.439 I was workshopping some kind of like Tumblr post style joke. 1:20:59.520 --> 1:21:02.120 But this I still have like two pages of this pamphlet. 1:21:02.240 --> 1:21:05.479 So now, how do gender identity policies affect me and 1:21:05.560 --> 1:21:09.920 my community? The question on every Republican grandparents' mind. The 1:21:09.960 --> 1:21:13.760 first area of concern privacy. Privacy concerns arise when a 1:21:13.800 --> 1:21:17.920 men who identify you as women can enter female only spaces, 1:21:18.280 --> 1:21:22.280 for example, changing rooms, gym class. They're doing bathroom stuff, 1:21:22.680 --> 1:21:26.080 that's what they're doing. The reason we have separate facilities 1:21:26.120 --> 1:21:28.280 in the first place is not because of a gender identity, 1:21:28.360 --> 1:21:31.599 but because of the bodily difference between males and females. 1:21:31.840 --> 1:21:32.680 That's interesting. 1:21:33.000 --> 1:21:35.160 I wonder what happens when some of those bodily differences 1:21:35.160 --> 1:21:37.880 start to change, or your social rules of male and 1:21:37.880 --> 1:21:41.280 female also change, like a young trans girl going into 1:21:41.280 --> 1:21:44.920 the men's bathroom that could maybe be a little bit 1:21:45.000 --> 1:21:48.280 uncomfortable anyway. 1:21:48.320 --> 1:21:51.200 Preventing sexual assault is another. 1:21:51.040 --> 1:21:56.200 Major area of concern when gender identity determines who may 1:21:56.360 --> 1:22:01.120 enter a women only space. Public safety X efforts such 1:22:01.160 --> 1:22:05.639 as Kenneth V. Lanning, former FBI Supervisory Special Agent assigned 1:22:05.640 --> 1:22:07.519 to the Behavioral Science Unit. 1:22:09.320 --> 1:22:10.919 They're doing the Buffalo Bill. 1:22:13.400 --> 1:22:15.360 At the National Center for the Analysis Violent Crime at 1:22:15.360 --> 1:22:17.400 the FBI Academy for over twenty years. It is just 1:22:17.400 --> 1:22:22.080 the Buffalo bill. Guy explains that predators abuse gender and 1:22:22.400 --> 1:22:26.080 the policies to gain access to victims, while victims law 1:22:26.120 --> 1:22:29.120 enforcement become less likely to report incidents for fear of 1:22:29.160 --> 1:22:33.320 having misunderstood and being accused of discrimination. The primary concern 1:22:33.400 --> 1:22:36.599 is not that people who identify as transgender will victimize women, 1:22:36.840 --> 1:22:40.240 but that predators will exploit gender identity policies to do so. 1:22:40.240 --> 1:22:43.719 So this is interesting. They're actually not doing all trans 1:22:43.800 --> 1:22:47.120 women are secretly rapists. They are doing what is actually 1:22:47.160 --> 1:22:50.439 more like more legit is that no like men will 1:22:50.439 --> 1:22:52.880 be fucked up and men will like do fucked up shit. 1:22:53.280 --> 1:22:56.120 The thing is, they don't need those policies to do 1:22:56.160 --> 1:22:58.160 fucked up shit. Men will do it regardless. 1:22:58.800 --> 1:23:02.519 Wait, you are the Herod Foundation, Your your base, your 1:23:02.840 --> 1:23:05.920 entire base are chuck is composed of churches who do 1:23:05.960 --> 1:23:08.000 this literally every day, Like, come on, what are we 1:23:08.040 --> 1:23:08.559 doing here? 1:23:08.960 --> 1:23:11.479 But you find it interesting that they take this line 1:23:11.520 --> 1:23:12.000 of approach. 1:23:12.400 --> 1:23:14.880 I will say, this pamphlet feels like a much more 1:23:14.960 --> 1:23:17.840 sort of moderate So this feels like a gateway thing 1:23:18.120 --> 1:23:21.559 versus like the stuff that they're stuff that they actually believe, 1:23:21.880 --> 1:23:23.760 or like the sort of like more hardcore stuff that 1:23:23.760 --> 1:23:25.520 they they distribute. 1:23:26.200 --> 1:23:28.400 Well, I'm not sure how to how to segue to 1:23:28.439 --> 1:23:30.599 an ad break from this one. I'll be honest. 1:23:31.960 --> 1:23:33.879 You know what else the Heritage Foundation supports? 1:23:34.280 --> 1:23:37.240 Oh well that only is true capitalism and these ads 1:23:37.240 --> 1:23:40.960 that help fuel the turning machine of death and suffering. 1:23:41.160 --> 1:23:55.519 Hah Okay, we are back. Let's talk about fairness. Gender 1:23:55.600 --> 1:24:01.479 identity creates an unfairness when biological males biological males compete 1:24:01.560 --> 1:24:06.960 against females in sports and other activities. It also reduces 1:24:07.000 --> 1:24:10.640 girl chances of winning athletic scholarships. 1:24:11.000 --> 1:24:15.240 Yeah, the other fucking title nine defense every. 1:24:15.040 --> 1:24:18.800 Time scholar I'm sure all those trends girls are taken 1:24:18.840 --> 1:24:20.360 of all the scholarships. 1:24:20.479 --> 1:24:20.799 Yeah. 1:24:21.320 --> 1:24:23.600 Just let's just see where the Heritage Foundation stood on 1:24:23.680 --> 1:24:25.920 fucking Title nine, shall we when that came in. I'm 1:24:25.960 --> 1:24:27.280 sure they were totally supportive. 1:24:28.040 --> 1:24:34.040 Already, several high school girls have lost state championships is 1:24:34.760 --> 1:24:38.480 to quote unquote boys who were allowed to compete against them. 1:24:38.960 --> 1:24:42.880 These two boys have won fifteen girls state championships that 1:24:42.920 --> 1:24:47.599 were held up by ten females in the previous year. 1:24:49.160 --> 1:24:52.120 I tried to search some of these keywords to find 1:24:52.160 --> 1:24:54.920 exactly what they were talking about. The first result was 1:24:55.120 --> 1:24:59.160 from the reputable news publication, the Daily Signal, which is 1:24:59.200 --> 1:25:03.400 a Heritage Foundation puppet site. The article is just listing 1:25:03.520 --> 1:25:05.719 like a handful of like trans girls across the country 1:25:05.760 --> 1:25:07.160 who participated in school sports. 1:25:07.320 --> 1:25:08.559 And that's like, that's like all it is. 1:25:09.360 --> 1:25:14.000 And then of particular interest to James this next sentence, Oh, god, 1:25:14.880 --> 1:25:19.000 man who entifies some transgender Well, that's that's an interesting one. 1:25:19.560 --> 1:25:23.160 A man whoifies as a transgender has also won the 1:25:23.240 --> 1:25:25.200 women's cycling World's title. 1:25:26.720 --> 1:25:29.400 I know who they're talking about here. This is someone 1:25:29.479 --> 1:25:32.800 called for Runica Ivy. She was formerly known as Rachel 1:25:32.840 --> 1:25:35.479 McKinnon when she won the world title. Okay, she won 1:25:35.520 --> 1:25:39.479 a UCI Women's Master's Track World Championship. If you want 1:25:39.520 --> 1:25:43.320 to find an event where gender affirming hormones are used 1:25:43.960 --> 1:25:46.360 on a regular basis, I suggest you check out the 1:25:46.400 --> 1:25:51.360 Men's Masters World Track Championship because every fucking year one 1:25:51.360 --> 1:25:55.400 of those dudes gets popped for using testosterone, and like, 1:25:55.680 --> 1:25:59.680 I don't see that in the Heritage Foundation's complaints, Like 1:26:00.600 --> 1:26:04.920 this is just asshole, really, they've she has been a 1:26:04.960 --> 1:26:07.799 particular target for these people. Cycling has been a particular 1:26:07.840 --> 1:26:10.160 target for these people for a very long time, and 1:26:10.200 --> 1:26:13.679 it's very funny that they continue to like put out 1:26:13.680 --> 1:26:17.880 this propaganda which completely misunderstands, like the things that let 1:26:17.920 --> 1:26:21.639 you win the Master's Track World Championship are having money 1:26:22.160 --> 1:26:26.479 and having time. Like it is inherently unfair. It's it's 1:26:27.120 --> 1:26:30.280 a hobby sport right thirty five to forty four. There 1:26:30.280 --> 1:26:32.760 are not professional athletes in that age group like the 1:26:32.760 --> 1:26:34.679 people doing this. So the people who have the time 1:26:34.720 --> 1:26:36.759 and the money, they buy the fancy bikes, they travel 1:26:36.800 --> 1:26:39.280 to the race. It's if you care, if you care 1:26:39.280 --> 1:26:41.960 about fairness in masters cycling, there are a million other 1:26:42.000 --> 1:26:42.840 places to go after it. 1:26:42.840 --> 1:26:43.519 This is bullshit. 1:26:44.000 --> 1:26:47.360 Well it's so, it's so transparent because now the biggest 1:26:47.840 --> 1:26:54.000 trans sports controversy has been over a cisgender woman who 1:26:54.080 --> 1:26:58.200 just is appearing too masculine, right, Like, like the biggest, 1:26:58.640 --> 1:27:01.400 the biggest controversy in this whole trans women and sports 1:27:01.400 --> 1:27:04.559 thing at the Olympics ear earlier this year is just 1:27:04.680 --> 1:27:05.960 actually assis gender woman. 1:27:06.160 --> 1:27:09.880 Yeah, but that's the whole thing, right, Like policing the 1:27:09.920 --> 1:27:12.759 way people present their gender is what this is about 1:27:12.840 --> 1:27:13.720 for them. 1:27:13.920 --> 1:27:16.559 Yeah, and they're willing to throw anyone under the bus 1:27:16.760 --> 1:27:19.800 as long as it like puts forward like whatever disinformation 1:27:19.880 --> 1:27:22.759 they want, with the sole purpose of just changing public opinion, 1:27:23.040 --> 1:27:26.520 not actually like caring about any of the people involved. 1:27:26.120 --> 1:27:29.200 Here, Yeah, but like a return to like I don't 1:27:29.200 --> 1:27:31.360 even think traditional gender roles, but like, let's just say 1:27:31.439 --> 1:27:34.559 nineteen thirties gender roles, not even nineteen thirties, right, there 1:27:34.560 --> 1:27:37.560 were women fighting in the Spanishil War in the nineteen thirties. 1:27:37.320 --> 1:27:39.280 Victorian England gender roles. 1:27:39.560 --> 1:27:43.040 Yeah, totally, like it is what they want, and like 1:27:44.040 --> 1:27:47.400 they're not throwing emonically funded a bus so much she 1:27:47.640 --> 1:27:49.840 is part of a target because she's not a girly 1:27:49.960 --> 1:27:52.479 enough girl. Right, she's a woman who punches other people 1:27:52.520 --> 1:27:56.680 in the face, and like that's not collateral damage to me. 1:27:56.840 --> 1:28:00.200 Like that is part of their thing, right, it's not 1:28:00.920 --> 1:28:02.800 coincidental that it was a box set. 1:28:02.920 --> 1:28:04.759 It's part of their larger political project. 1:28:05.080 --> 1:28:05.320 Yeah. 1:28:05.479 --> 1:28:08.120 Yeah, And obviously it's also their conception of womanhood is 1:28:08.120 --> 1:28:12.200 also highly racialized. Yes, obvious reasons. 1:28:12.360 --> 1:28:15.080 Yeah, it's not coincidental there's an African woman, right. 1:28:15.360 --> 1:28:17.160 No, many of the transgirls who are listed in the 1:28:17.200 --> 1:28:20.960 Daily Signal article, or transgirls of color. Yeah, that is 1:28:20.960 --> 1:28:23.439 who they're going after. They're going after like the most 1:28:23.439 --> 1:28:26.040 oppressed person and you can be in the country. 1:28:26.400 --> 1:28:26.719 Yeah. 1:28:26.840 --> 1:28:30.240 Now on onto one of our final chapters, How transgenderism 1:28:30.320 --> 1:28:32.440 affects your personal liberty. 1:28:32.439 --> 1:28:34.679 Transgenderism, that's the good to one. 1:28:34.760 --> 1:28:37.800 Transgender policies also violate our freedom speech and freedom of 1:28:37.840 --> 1:28:40.599 conscience by forcing people to speak or act in ways 1:28:40.680 --> 1:28:44.479 contrary to their personal judgment and deeply held beliefs. In 1:28:44.520 --> 1:28:46.639 New York City, you can be fined up to two 1:28:46.800 --> 1:28:50.400 hundred and fifty thousand dollars for misgendering. 1:28:50.479 --> 1:28:53.679 What's the citation that they do have a citation? Okay, 1:28:54.200 --> 1:28:54.519 hit me. 1:28:55.080 --> 1:29:00.759 They do go to the NYC Commission, and this isn't true. 1:29:00.880 --> 1:29:03.679 Despite the citation, they're trying to take like a city 1:29:03.760 --> 1:29:06.519 ordinance and twist it to make it sound like you 1:29:06.560 --> 1:29:09.120 will be fined a quarter of a million dollars for 1:29:09.200 --> 1:29:11.040 calling some of the wrong pronouns. And that's not where 1:29:11.040 --> 1:29:15.000 the audience is. Yeah, it's employment law, right, correct. It 1:29:15.040 --> 1:29:16.920 was first written in the early two thousands. It was 1:29:16.960 --> 1:29:19.519 then revised in twenty fifteen. I'm going to quote from 1:29:19.520 --> 1:29:22.920 Snopes quote discrimination it gets a transgender individual could resultant 1:29:22.920 --> 1:29:25.160 finds to up to two hundred and fifty thousand dollars, 1:29:25.360 --> 1:29:28.240 But these fines won't be handed out for acidentally misusing pronouns. 1:29:28.240 --> 1:29:31.880 According to the new guidelines, the Commission can impose civil 1:29:31.920 --> 1:29:34.080 penalties up to one hundred and twenty five thousand dollars 1:29:34.120 --> 1:29:36.840 for violations of the law, and, in extreme circumstances, two 1:29:36.920 --> 1:29:39.400 hundred and fifty thousand for violations that are the result 1:29:39.520 --> 1:29:43.519 of willful, wanton, and malicious conduct. Yeah, this is for 1:29:43.600 --> 1:29:45.000 like employment discrimination. 1:29:45.200 --> 1:29:49.000 Yeah, employment discrimination happens literally all the time, and it 1:29:49.360 --> 1:29:50.759 never there's almost ever. 1:29:50.680 --> 1:29:53.799 Consequences for it. Yeah, but that's where this number comes from. 1:29:54.000 --> 1:29:56.880 Right, And it's completely misleading to suggest it like the 1:29:56.960 --> 1:29:58.280 work police to get to find you. 1:29:59.240 --> 1:30:02.559 Correct, And it's not for misusing pronouns. It's for like 1:30:03.000 --> 1:30:07.160 extreme cases of like continuous harassment or like like like 1:30:07.320 --> 1:30:11.800 legal discrimination. The next sentence is, quote, both a high 1:30:11.880 --> 1:30:14.880 school teacher and a college professor have been sanctioned by 1:30:14.920 --> 1:30:19.479 their employers for using biologically correct terms with their students. 1:30:19.680 --> 1:30:20.679 Did Jordan Peterson? 1:30:21.240 --> 1:30:23.960 Now, obviously those terms are not biologically correct because you 1:30:24.000 --> 1:30:27.120 can scientifically change your biological sex. And what they're talking 1:30:27.120 --> 1:30:29.000 about here is no just teachers who are just like 1:30:29.000 --> 1:30:31.680 harassing their students, who are like calling them by like 1:30:31.760 --> 1:30:34.360 the wrong name, calling them by the wrong pronouns. Like 1:30:34.560 --> 1:30:37.920 if you did that like assist person over time, Yeah, 1:30:37.960 --> 1:30:40.200 you would also get in trouble because that's just like harassment. 1:30:40.439 --> 1:30:43.360 Yeah yeah, And like you're just a shit teacher. If 1:30:43.400 --> 1:30:45.960 you're fucking going after your students for who they are, 1:30:46.120 --> 1:30:48.599 then yeah, you probably shouldn't be a teacher. 1:30:49.400 --> 1:30:53.559 They then talk about how transactivists are trying to get 1:30:53.600 --> 1:30:58.200 medical providers to provide like gender affirming healthcare. They're complaining 1:30:58.240 --> 1:31:01.599 how how Catholic hospitals are getting in trouble for not 1:31:01.640 --> 1:31:04.639 wanting to do gender firming health care. They talk about 1:31:04.680 --> 1:31:08.200 like an Obama mandate that forces health care plans to 1:31:08.280 --> 1:31:12.280 cover gender firming health care and making sure that physicians 1:31:12.320 --> 1:31:14.800 actually have to do it even if they personally don't 1:31:14.800 --> 1:31:16.439 want to be like, no, this is like your job, 1:31:16.479 --> 1:31:18.880 you have to provide health care. So they complain about 1:31:18.920 --> 1:31:21.000 all that kind of stuff, and then the last section 1:31:21.040 --> 1:31:25.559 of the pamphlet is on child development. Transmitter ideology is 1:31:25.560 --> 1:31:27.840 now promoted in schools for children are taught that gender 1:31:27.880 --> 1:31:30.240 is fluid, falls long a spectrum, and is detached from 1:31:30.280 --> 1:31:34.160 bodily sex. In addition, activists seek to punish anyone who 1:31:34.160 --> 1:31:38.040 expresses any reservations about radical treatment plans for gender dysphoric children. 1:31:38.320 --> 1:31:41.320 These plans can include socially transitioning children as young as four, 1:31:41.640 --> 1:31:44.720 administering puberty blocking drugs as young as nine, cross sex 1:31:44.760 --> 1:31:47.599 hormones is eng as fourteen, and surgery as young as eighteen. 1:31:48.439 --> 1:31:52.759 This ideology threatens parental rights. In Ohio, a Catholic family 1:31:53.080 --> 1:31:56.439 lost custody of their daughter when they oppose treatment of 1:31:56.560 --> 1:32:03.120 gender dysphoria with cross sex hormones. So, actually this is 1:32:03.120 --> 1:32:06.000 actually a pretty good breakdown of like how gender like 1:32:06.160 --> 1:32:08.679 affirming healthcare could work, because yeah, if a kid wants 1:32:08.720 --> 1:32:12.200 to like socially start transitioning very young and they want to, yes, 1:32:12.320 --> 1:32:14.680 that's great, there's no harm in that. If getting on 1:32:14.720 --> 1:32:18.639 puberty blockers at around nine, that makes sense, hormones as 1:32:18.680 --> 1:32:22.240 a teenager, yeah, and surgery maybe a little bit later. Yeah, 1:32:22.240 --> 1:32:26.000 that all seems quite quite reasonable. And in terms of 1:32:26.040 --> 1:32:30.400 this Catholic family, So a transfer of parents lost custody 1:32:30.400 --> 1:32:33.599 of their seventeen year old trans son in twenty eighteen 1:32:33.760 --> 1:32:36.439 after inducing suicidal ideation for refusing to let their child 1:32:36.520 --> 1:32:39.120 receive hormone therapy prescribed by a medical team who had 1:32:39.160 --> 1:32:42.720 been treating the child for two years. Custody was transferred 1:32:42.720 --> 1:32:44.960 to his grandparents. So this wasn't the state just like 1:32:45.000 --> 1:32:47.719 stealing this child away. It's like, no, you're like basically 1:32:47.760 --> 1:32:49.960 abusing this kid. So we're going to move custody over 1:32:50.280 --> 1:32:52.439 to the grandparents. Also, like you're opposing this for a 1:32:52.520 --> 1:32:54.840 seventeen year old, this is almost like a full legal adult. 1:32:55.120 --> 1:32:57.799 I'm going to quote from CNN here quote. The parents' 1:32:57.800 --> 1:33:00.439 attorney had argued that the child was no not even 1:33:00.560 --> 1:33:03.360 quote close to being able to make such a life 1:33:03.400 --> 1:33:07.040 altering decision at this time. Unquote, The county prosecuting attorney 1:33:07.120 --> 1:33:08.920 argued that the parents wanted to stop the treatment because 1:33:08.960 --> 1:33:12.360 it violated their religious beliefs unquote. So yeah, you're so 1:33:12.400 --> 1:33:14.559 scared that this seventeen year old is going to make 1:33:14.600 --> 1:33:16.679 a choice that you personally find a little bit icky, 1:33:17.360 --> 1:33:17.840 like cob on. 1:33:18.400 --> 1:33:21.920 Yeah, I'm pretty sure you can legally imantipate yourself at seventeen, right. 1:33:22.320 --> 1:33:24.960 Yeah, and usually you have like medical freedom, at least 1:33:25.000 --> 1:33:28.280 in Oregon, you have medical freedom at sixteen. I don't 1:33:28.280 --> 1:33:29.960 know what the case by case basis is in a 1:33:29.960 --> 1:33:32.800 lot of states. Yeah, but that's that's pretty fucked up. 1:33:33.400 --> 1:33:33.559 Now. 1:33:33.760 --> 1:33:36.759 There is nothing in the coverage about the family being Catholic. 1:33:37.120 --> 1:33:41.200 Heritage might be conflating this other story from Indiana where 1:33:41.240 --> 1:33:43.519 Catholic family lost custody of their trans kid in twenty 1:33:43.560 --> 1:33:46.880 twenty one for alleged child abuse, and then earlier this year, 1:33:46.920 --> 1:33:49.519 the Supreme Court declined to hear the parents' case. 1:33:51.040 --> 1:33:54.200 So, so there you go, big a health for them. 1:33:54.840 --> 1:33:58.040 They then talk about quote unquote research, what the research 1:33:58.200 --> 1:34:02.400 says about transition, The view that social medical transition is 1:34:02.400 --> 1:34:04.920 the appropriate treatment for people, including children who feel at 1:34:04.920 --> 1:34:08.000 odds with their biological sex is becoming more widely accepted. However, 1:34:08.240 --> 1:34:12.320 transitioning treatment, including puberty blocking hormones for children and sex 1:34:12.400 --> 1:34:17.599 change surgeries for teens and adults, come with serious consequences. Today, 1:34:17.720 --> 1:34:20.200 parents are told that puberty blockers and cross sex hormones 1:34:20.280 --> 1:34:22.240 may be the only way to prevent their child from 1:34:22.240 --> 1:34:26.320 committing suicide. However, according to the DSM five, as many 1:34:26.360 --> 1:34:29.800 as ninety eight percent of gender confused boys and eighty 1:34:29.840 --> 1:34:33.480 eight percent of gender confused girls eventually accept their biological 1:34:33.520 --> 1:34:37.880 sex after naturally passing through puberty. Okay, let's go over 1:34:37.920 --> 1:34:39.800 this because there's some weird phrasing here. 1:34:39.800 --> 1:34:40.920 Because no, that's not it. 1:34:41.000 --> 1:34:44.080 That's all with the DSM actually, says a writer named 1:34:44.320 --> 1:34:46.639 Micah b broke down this claim in a medium post 1:34:46.680 --> 1:34:50.360 from twenty eighteen. This exact sentence has been reused a 1:34:50.360 --> 1:34:55.439 lot of like writing publications over time. So accept their 1:34:55.479 --> 1:34:59.360 biological sex after naturally passing through puberty is a very 1:34:59.560 --> 1:35:03.439 loaded raise. Like a child who suffers from genitisphoria may 1:35:03.479 --> 1:35:06.760 receive treatment, whether that's through like like speech therapy, like 1:35:06.800 --> 1:35:11.000 talking about it with a therapist, or hormone blockers, and 1:35:11.240 --> 1:35:13.840 they may then choose to cease treatment and go through 1:35:13.840 --> 1:35:17.200 their natural puberty, right like that is, but yeah, that's 1:35:17.240 --> 1:35:20.519 not them like like one unquote like naturally passing through puberty. 1:35:20.560 --> 1:35:24.000 Like no, that that also involves a degree of treatment. Now, 1:35:24.360 --> 1:35:26.320 the reason why these numbers might be a little bit 1:35:26.400 --> 1:35:30.040 kind of odd, and also they're just false like the 1:35:30.040 --> 1:35:32.879 way that they're like being framed here, but in particular 1:35:32.920 --> 1:35:36.760 for kids, like the criteria for children having genitusphoria is 1:35:36.840 --> 1:35:40.080 different from the criteria for teens and adults, right, does 1:35:40.160 --> 1:35:44.120 mean different things. They also say as many as ninety 1:35:44.160 --> 1:35:51.759 eight percent. Many reason I say because the DSM five 1:35:51.960 --> 1:35:56.479 actually says that quote in natal males, persistence has ranged 1:35:56.680 --> 1:35:59.679 from two point two percent to thirty percent. In natal 1:35:59.720 --> 1:36:03.160 female else, persistance has ranged from twelve percent to fifty percent. 1:36:04.000 --> 1:36:07.760 So they took the lowest possible number and switched the 1:36:07.800 --> 1:36:11.040 stat around by saying that as many as ninety eight 1:36:11.080 --> 1:36:15.920 percent eventually accept their quote unquote biological sex. So that's 1:36:16.320 --> 1:36:19.360 that's a cute little little flip around. And then also, 1:36:19.479 --> 1:36:22.679 according to the DSM, a majority of boys sixty three 1:36:22.720 --> 1:36:25.320 to one hundred percent who quote unquote grow out of 1:36:25.400 --> 1:36:28.240 gender dysphoria just later turn out to be gay. Right, 1:36:28.280 --> 1:36:30.720 there is a difference between like gender dysphoria versus like 1:36:30.800 --> 1:36:34.559 gender deviance. That's why you, Yeah, you should like work 1:36:34.640 --> 1:36:36.479 with an actual medical team if you have like a 1:36:36.600 --> 1:36:39.200 kid who's like pre puberty, who has a degree of 1:36:39.240 --> 1:36:41.720 gender variance, because yeah, that could result in a whole 1:36:41.720 --> 1:36:43.720 bunch of a whole bunch of things, and the fact 1:36:43.760 --> 1:36:45.200 that some of them just grew up to be like 1:36:45.439 --> 1:36:49.439 gay kids is like the result of like successful medical treatment, 1:36:49.479 --> 1:36:52.000 and like it's like like a loving family. Like that 1:36:52.120 --> 1:36:56.360 is a good outcome. Similarly, the DSM says that thirty 1:36:56.360 --> 1:36:58.720 two to fifty percent of girls whose gender dysphoria does 1:36:58.760 --> 1:37:01.000 not persist later identify as gay. 1:37:01.280 --> 1:37:02.800 So there we go. 1:37:03.040 --> 1:37:07.240 That's pretty pretty pretty average stuff. They then go onto 1:37:07.280 --> 1:37:11.080 list all of the quote unquote side effects of gender 1:37:11.080 --> 1:37:15.840 affirming treatment, saying, quote meanwhile, radical gender affirming therapies post 1:37:16.000 --> 1:37:21.120 serious medical risks, including disfiguring acne, high blood pressure, weight gain, 1:37:21.400 --> 1:37:27.200 abnormal glucose tolerance, breast cancer, liver disease, thermioprosis, and cardiovascular disease. 1:37:27.840 --> 1:37:32.080 These are all the consequences of just puberty. Yeah, Like, 1:37:32.200 --> 1:37:34.479 depending on what puberty you go through. Yeah, it's gonna 1:37:34.520 --> 1:37:38.760 have different effects. That's just how puberty worries. Yeah, they 1:37:38.800 --> 1:37:43.080 also include uh and of course sterility, and this is 1:37:43.520 --> 1:37:47.519 still a hotly debated topic. There's some recent studies that 1:37:47.560 --> 1:37:50.439 show that there's actually a pretty good chance of people 1:37:50.479 --> 1:37:54.200 who go on estrogen being able to regain fertility after 1:37:54.360 --> 1:37:58.479 after like six months of ceasing treatment. It's not consistent, right, 1:37:58.720 --> 1:38:02.920 everyone who everyone who go on like HRT has an 1:38:03.040 --> 1:38:07.519 understanding that it can affect how they reproduce in the future. 1:38:07.560 --> 1:38:10.080 You're definitely encouraged to, like if you want to have 1:38:10.200 --> 1:38:11.640 kids or think you might want to have kids in 1:38:11.640 --> 1:38:14.840 the future, Like you can save your sperms, you can 1:38:14.840 --> 1:38:17.040 save your eggs, you can you can get that stuff 1:38:17.040 --> 1:38:19.120 ahead of time. Yeah, but this is also something that 1:38:19.200 --> 1:38:22.040 people are like working on of being able to like 1:38:22.160 --> 1:38:25.120 maintain the ability to have kids even like during or 1:38:25.160 --> 1:38:29.160 like after gender affirming health care treatment has like commenced, 1:38:29.400 --> 1:38:34.360 So that's cool. Finally, quote, puberty blocking therapies and cross 1:38:34.439 --> 1:38:38.559 sex hormones are non reversible, largely untested, and highly dangerous, 1:38:38.600 --> 1:38:41.200 especially for children. We've already we've already talked about how 1:38:41.240 --> 1:38:43.479 all of that is not true. We've already gone through 1:38:43.479 --> 1:38:45.840 all of that. Sex assignment surgeries have not been shown 1:38:45.840 --> 1:38:48.680 to reduce the extraordinarily high rate of suicide attempts among 1:38:48.720 --> 1:38:52.120 people who identify as transgender forty one percent compared to 1:38:52.120 --> 1:38:55.640 the general population's four point six percent. So this is 1:38:55.640 --> 1:38:59.320 also just like not true, Like everything, it's just not true. Also, 1:38:59.360 --> 1:39:01.760 there's no there's no citation here. A fear of you 1:39:01.840 --> 1:39:04.360 studying the Journal of Adlast and Health found that hormone 1:39:04.360 --> 1:39:07.280 therapy for trans youth reduced the rate of depression and 1:39:07.320 --> 1:39:10.519 suicide by forty percent. It also found that having like 1:39:10.600 --> 1:39:16.080 parental support during this process also heavily impacts the effectiveness 1:39:16.200 --> 1:39:19.920 of this treatment, specifically on depression and suicide. Like, if 1:39:20.080 --> 1:39:22.679 you're going through this treatment and your parents still hate you, yeah, 1:39:22.720 --> 1:39:25.799 that's going to actually, it's going to hurt the ability 1:39:26.200 --> 1:39:29.280 of this healthcare to actually be effective mentally. An investigation 1:39:29.320 --> 1:39:31.479 by doctors of the University of Washington found that trans 1:39:31.560 --> 1:39:34.400 youth who received gender affirming health care reduced their risk 1:39:34.439 --> 1:39:36.720 of suicide by seventy three percent compared to those who 1:39:36.720 --> 1:39:39.600 do not receive care, and a policy brief in the 1:39:39.720 --> 1:39:44.200 VA wrote quote, since nineteen seventy five, more than two 1:39:44.280 --> 1:39:48.000 thousand scientific studies have examined gender affirming care, supported by 1:39:48.000 --> 1:39:50.960 over thirty leading medical associations, including the World Health Organization 1:39:51.000 --> 1:39:53.920 and the American Medical Association, gender affirming care is deemed 1:39:53.920 --> 1:39:58.439 evidence based and effective at reducing suicide rates. This is 1:39:58.479 --> 1:40:01.599 all widely understood. This is such like an objectionable stance 1:40:02.080 --> 1:40:05.680 that even famous woke institution the VA, is like, yeah, no, 1:40:05.720 --> 1:40:11.559 it's actually really effective. Okay, And now actually, finally for 1:40:11.640 --> 1:40:15.640 this pamphletic quote, the most helpful therapies for children experiencing 1:40:15.640 --> 1:40:18.800 gender dysphoria do not try to remake the body to 1:40:18.880 --> 1:40:23.800 conform with thoughts and feelings, which is impossible, not impossible, 1:40:24.439 --> 1:40:28.280 but rather but rather to help people find healthy ways 1:40:28.360 --> 1:40:33.720 to manage their tension and move towards accepting the reality 1:40:33.760 --> 1:40:38.280 of their bodies. Unfortunately, fifteen states have passed laws of 1:40:38.320 --> 1:40:41.680 banning talk therapy for miners who struggle with gender dysphoria, 1:40:41.720 --> 1:40:43.519 and there's a bill in Congress which would do the same. 1:40:44.360 --> 1:40:48.120 There's no bill banning talk therapy. This is a conversion 1:40:48.200 --> 1:40:51.280 therapy ban. This isn't This isn't like actual talk therapy, 1:40:51.280 --> 1:40:54.479 which is a part of like actual healthcare treatment. This 1:40:54.560 --> 1:40:57.280 is against like conversion therapy. That is what they're actually 1:40:57.280 --> 1:40:59.880 talking about. So that is the bulk of the pan 1:41:00.800 --> 1:41:03.599 I also got given this other kind of I think 1:41:03.600 --> 1:41:07.479 it's called a fact sheet, which is ironic by the 1:41:07.560 --> 1:41:11.520 Heritage Action Group, which is the kind of lobbying activist 1:41:11.640 --> 1:41:14.280 arm branch of Heritage. It goes over a whole bunch 1:41:14.280 --> 1:41:17.960 of like the same stuff. They particularly don't like that 1:41:18.160 --> 1:41:20.680 the Department of Education released a report banning the use 1:41:20.680 --> 1:41:23.839 of offensive and inappropriate terms like mother and father in school. 1:41:24.040 --> 1:41:24.880 This isn't true. 1:41:25.160 --> 1:41:27.120 What they're talking about is that there's been a push 1:41:27.160 --> 1:41:29.840 to include just more gender neutral language, like instead of 1:41:29.840 --> 1:41:33.320 saying your mom and dad, just say parents. Like yeah, 1:41:33.360 --> 1:41:37.920 that makes sense. Yeah, that's that's specifically what they're complaining about. 1:41:38.439 --> 1:41:42.600 They complain about like books and schools. They call the 1:41:42.680 --> 1:41:46.439 Gender Queer Graphic Novel a book riddled with pornographic and 1:41:46.479 --> 1:41:47.400 pedophilic content. 1:41:47.680 --> 1:41:50.960 Not true. It's just simply isn't true. 1:41:51.520 --> 1:41:53.280 All these kind of old lies that we have talked 1:41:53.320 --> 1:41:55.400 about on the show like many times before. And then 1:41:55.400 --> 1:41:57.240 they also just rehash a whole bunch of of the 1:41:57.240 --> 1:42:00.840 claims from the other pamphlet They talk about the claim 1:42:00.920 --> 1:42:03.559 that in Virginia a girl was actually assaulted by a 1:42:03.600 --> 1:42:05.760 teen boy pretending to be a girl. And this is 1:42:05.760 --> 1:42:07.920 not an isolated incident. We've talked about that claim before. 1:42:08.000 --> 1:42:10.240 This was a fake story invented by the Daily Wire. 1:42:10.720 --> 1:42:13.800 This person was not trans. This was someone who was 1:42:13.800 --> 1:42:16.200 in a relationship with this girl who's actually assaulted her 1:42:16.360 --> 1:42:20.280 in a bathroom. Not a transperson, just a regular cysgender male. 1:42:20.760 --> 1:42:23.519 And then they talk about sports. They talk about how 1:42:23.560 --> 1:42:27.679 men have more upper body mass, and that puberty blockers 1:42:27.840 --> 1:42:31.160 do not change height, organ size, skeletal structure, muscle mass, 1:42:31.240 --> 1:42:34.360 or any of the biological characteristics that make men unequal 1:42:34.400 --> 1:42:38.479 opponents as hormones. Literally, they just list all the things 1:42:38.479 --> 1:42:42.080 that hormones actually change, like they actually famously do change 1:42:42.120 --> 1:42:45.040 all of those things. Height, skeletal structure, organ size, and 1:42:45.120 --> 1:42:47.040 muscle mass. Those are the main things. 1:42:47.439 --> 1:42:47.639 Yeah. 1:42:47.640 --> 1:42:49.120 I mean, if that wasn't the case, you could just 1:42:49.160 --> 1:42:52.160 take testosterone and you it wouldn't affect you. 1:42:52.160 --> 1:42:56.920 Apparently, Yeah, famously, testosterone never changes your muscle mass. 1:42:57.400 --> 1:43:00.000 Yeah, just just and soundstronger man who never benefit. 1:43:00.320 --> 1:43:02.639 They also complain about how the Biden administration is wanted 1:43:02.640 --> 1:43:05.160 people to use preferred pronouns if you work in government, 1:43:05.200 --> 1:43:07.000 which is again is just trying to stop people from 1:43:07.000 --> 1:43:10.040 like harassing by using the wrong pronouns. It's it's all 1:43:10.080 --> 1:43:12.519 just ways to prevent harassment. And they complain about all 1:43:12.520 --> 1:43:15.600 that kind of stuff as well. So it's a lot 1:43:15.640 --> 1:43:17.640 of the same stuff from the pamphlets. A it's a 1:43:17.680 --> 1:43:20.240 pretty fun little fact sheet. Those are the two main 1:43:20.640 --> 1:43:24.160 pamphlets that were going around the RNC about gender ideology. 1:43:24.200 --> 1:43:26.200 That was kind of the most in depth it ever got. 1:43:26.479 --> 1:43:29.440 Most of the speeches did not even get into any specifics. 1:43:29.439 --> 1:43:33.360 They just like threw out keywords fractual like discussion, this is, 1:43:33.400 --> 1:43:35.280 this is this is the most in depth stuff they had. 1:43:35.400 --> 1:43:37.920 So this is largely like the bulk of like the 1:43:37.960 --> 1:43:41.040 average RNC attendees knowledge. This is actually probably more in 1:43:41.080 --> 1:43:44.120 depth than most average RNC attendees, at least in terms 1:43:44.160 --> 1:43:47.040 of what Heritage is putting out publicly, that is, their 1:43:47.040 --> 1:43:49.599 talking points, any any kind of closing thoughts here. 1:43:49.800 --> 1:43:54.200 Just dog shit. I didn't know what to say. Yeah, 1:43:54.240 --> 1:43:55.479 it's really quite bad. 1:43:55.920 --> 1:43:58.559 It's not my favorite, but honestly, I think it's just 1:43:58.600 --> 1:44:00.840 so poorly written and I don't know how effective this 1:44:01.000 --> 1:44:03.679 is it could be a lot more transphobic. Oddly enough, 1:44:03.760 --> 1:44:05.559 they have a lot of like the same lies that 1:44:05.680 --> 1:44:08.679 the right has been like workshopping around certain claims around 1:44:08.680 --> 1:44:11.560 like trans healthcare and specifically how it relates to like kids. 1:44:11.720 --> 1:44:14.480 But I honestly don't see this as a very effective 1:44:15.360 --> 1:44:17.240 messaging for heritage. 1:44:17.520 --> 1:44:19.040 Yeah, I think it is that, like. 1:44:20.560 --> 1:44:23.160 It's that pathway to hate thing, you know that, like 1:44:23.880 --> 1:44:26.160 your grandchild has a nose pacing? How do you deal 1:44:26.200 --> 1:44:30.639 with this? Yes, that like it. It's it's not if 1:44:30.680 --> 1:44:32.519 you come at it too hard, people are going to 1:44:32.560 --> 1:44:33.240 be like what the fuck? 1:44:33.479 --> 1:44:35.280 But it gets people there. 1:44:35.840 --> 1:44:36.360 Yeah. 1:44:36.479 --> 1:44:38.479 I also want to go over this because like we're 1:44:38.479 --> 1:44:42.639 gonna be entering the holiday season pretty soon, so whatever 1:44:42.880 --> 1:44:48.080 whatever Thanksgiving or Christmas dinners you're forced to attend. Yeah, 1:44:48.120 --> 1:44:50.160 you know, if if people start talking with that kind 1:44:50.200 --> 1:44:53.000 of stuff, it's probably gonna be claims that are similar 1:44:53.040 --> 1:44:54.840 to some of the stuff in here. And these things 1:44:54.880 --> 1:44:57.280 are like very easy to like research, especially all of 1:44:57.280 --> 1:45:00.280 the like puberty blocking stuff like that. There's the it's 1:45:00.280 --> 1:45:02.600 so easy to be like this just isn't true, And 1:45:02.680 --> 1:45:04.320 most of them just have no idea because if the 1:45:04.360 --> 1:45:06.360 information they're getting is in line with this kind of thing. 1:45:06.880 --> 1:45:09.559 It is just an alternate reality that that they are 1:45:09.600 --> 1:45:12.000 living in. Yeah, and some of them are fueled by 1:45:12.080 --> 1:45:14.080 like actual ideological hatred, and some of them are just 1:45:14.120 --> 1:45:16.120 actually legitimately just like misinformed. 1:45:16.479 --> 1:45:17.639 And that's something. 1:45:17.840 --> 1:45:19.600 I can't tell you how your family thinks, because I 1:45:19.880 --> 1:45:22.600 don't know your family, but it is it is a 1:45:22.600 --> 1:45:24.960 good thing to to like keep in mind that there 1:45:25.000 --> 1:45:27.280 is ways to talk about some of the sort of things. 1:45:27.640 --> 1:45:29.719 There's also if you just want to avoid it, avoid 1:45:29.760 --> 1:45:33.479 it all together and play Nintendo in the basement during 1:45:33.479 --> 1:45:35.160 Thanksgiving dinner with your cousins. 1:45:35.160 --> 1:45:35.679 That's also. 1:45:36.400 --> 1:45:41.320 Yeah, sometimes the move yeap support that. Well, this has 1:45:41.360 --> 1:45:44.960 been exciting. We will see you again probably tomorrow for 1:45:45.120 --> 1:45:47.400 more breaking news. 1:45:50.560 --> 1:45:53.519 And it is news that breaks you slowly of time. 1:45:53.640 --> 1:45:56.519 That is that is our demo, News that breaks you. 1:45:56.720 --> 1:46:24.479 Yeah, Hi everyone, and welcome to it could happen here. 1:46:24.800 --> 1:46:28.320 I'm James and today I am joined by Billy Ford 1:46:28.479 --> 1:46:30.440 from the United States Institute Piece. 1:46:30.920 --> 1:46:33.240 Third time podcast guest Billy, how many. 1:46:33.160 --> 1:46:34.080 Think it's my second? 1:46:34.320 --> 1:46:35.240 Thanks for second? 1:46:35.280 --> 1:46:39.720 Okay, Yeah, well I'll give you a bonus one. Yeah, 1:46:39.720 --> 1:46:43.280 and we're here to discuss the revolution in me Emma 1:46:44.000 --> 1:46:46.600 and bring you up to date on conflict stuff and 1:46:47.080 --> 1:46:50.559 natural disasters stuff and answer some questions people have asked 1:46:50.560 --> 1:46:54.000 me by emailing me. So, yeah, thanks for joining us, Biddy. 1:46:54.240 --> 1:46:56.599 We're at another crossroads in the conflicts we talked about 1:46:56.600 --> 1:46:59.240 before we started recording. Can you preaps explain to folks like, 1:46:59.800 --> 1:47:03.280 what has happened since ten twenty seven Part two? 1:47:03.840 --> 1:47:04.120 Sure? 1:47:04.360 --> 1:47:07.920 Yeah, I mean, I think last time we talked, we 1:47:07.920 --> 1:47:10.799 were just kind of in the throes of the initial 1:47:10.840 --> 1:47:13.720 ten twenty seven phase. I mean, I think zooming out 1:47:13.760 --> 1:47:16.800 for a second, the you know, February twenty twenty one coup, 1:47:17.880 --> 1:47:23.000 September seventh, twenty twenty one, defensive wars announced and armed 1:47:23.040 --> 1:47:27.160 resistance really kicks off. And then twenty twenty three October 1:47:27.760 --> 1:47:31.280 things really escalate. After a few years of steady gains 1:47:31.280 --> 1:47:33.839 by the resistance, then there was a major level change 1:47:33.920 --> 1:47:38.080 and the trajectory of the war favoring the resistance forces. 1:47:38.479 --> 1:47:38.679 Yeah. 1:47:38.720 --> 1:47:41.920 I think, as you mentioned, there was a second phase 1:47:42.000 --> 1:47:46.600 of ten twenty seven in July in early August that. 1:47:46.920 --> 1:47:48.920 Took took things kind of to another level. 1:47:49.160 --> 1:47:53.080 Although it is kind of just a continuation of a 1:47:53.160 --> 1:47:57.000 sustained push by the resistance. I think some have perceived 1:47:57.120 --> 1:48:01.000 these moments of October twenty twenty three, inly August two 1:48:01.080 --> 1:48:05.000 point four adds real watershed moments. But I think we 1:48:05.080 --> 1:48:09.759 can see how these are illustrative or broader trends, trends 1:48:09.800 --> 1:48:12.760 in which the m R military is losing its capability 1:48:12.800 --> 1:48:18.559 to defend strategic positions, it's inability to counter attack on 1:48:18.640 --> 1:48:22.960 the resistance side, much greater coordination among resistance armed stakeholders, 1:48:23.400 --> 1:48:27.600 growing fighting capability, better weapons access, all these sorts of 1:48:27.640 --> 1:48:31.880 factors that have swung the balance of military power further 1:48:32.040 --> 1:48:35.679 in the favor of resistance forces. But essentially what happened 1:48:35.680 --> 1:48:39.520 in July and August was building off of the October advances, 1:48:39.880 --> 1:48:43.160 the resistance in northern Shan State, not far from the 1:48:43.240 --> 1:48:48.280 Chinese border, pushed further into central Miandmar in collaboration. This 1:48:48.400 --> 1:48:53.320 was essentially ethnic based armed organizations collaborating with Bamar People's 1:48:53.320 --> 1:48:56.759 Defense Forces under the command structure of the National Unity Government, 1:48:57.479 --> 1:49:00.760 and they have started making advances into sent to Burma. 1:49:00.840 --> 1:49:04.240 So whereas the initial phase of the war and the 1:49:04.320 --> 1:49:08.439 enug strategy was to focus on building relationships between the 1:49:08.439 --> 1:49:11.720 People's Defense forces under their command with ethnic based armed 1:49:11.760 --> 1:49:17.680 organizations and focusing strategically on the peripheries to build those relationships, 1:49:17.680 --> 1:49:20.680 to build ethnic buy into the broader revolution, to get 1:49:20.720 --> 1:49:23.920 access to weapons, and to make SEADI advances. Now we're 1:49:23.960 --> 1:49:27.479 at a phase where the resistance is pushing into central Meanmar. 1:49:27.600 --> 1:49:30.400 Now the focus is on the city of Mandalay and 1:49:30.680 --> 1:49:34.960 central Burma, which is the biggest commercial center of the country. 1:49:35.560 --> 1:49:39.400 So yeah, I mean this has sparked another phase of 1:49:40.439 --> 1:49:43.360 I think pressure and anxiety within Napida and the capital 1:49:43.439 --> 1:49:49.439 among the state Administrative council hunta leadership and more energy 1:49:49.479 --> 1:49:52.080 on the resistance side, And it's kind of it's it's 1:49:52.080 --> 1:49:55.920 occurred alongside advances on multiple other fronts. I mean in 1:49:56.240 --> 1:49:59.080 the very north of the country state, starting in March, 1:49:59.200 --> 1:50:03.160 the Kachin for has pushed the Memoral military out of it. 1:50:03.240 --> 1:50:06.280 It was two hundred posts within four months. Similarly in 1:50:06.320 --> 1:50:09.040 Rakhine State, which I think, well maybe we'll touch on more. Yeah, 1:50:09.160 --> 1:50:11.760 they are account army has made steady advances. So it's 1:50:11.800 --> 1:50:15.639 not just in these subregions. It's happening virtually all over 1:50:15.680 --> 1:50:16.639 the country at this point. 1:50:17.439 --> 1:50:20.800 Yeah, it does seem and like clearly the essays the 1:50:20.880 --> 1:50:23.160 Hunter is kind of on the back foot, like it 1:50:23.280 --> 1:50:27.559 started to forcibly conscript people, which in turn kind of 1:50:27.640 --> 1:50:30.240 get people a choice between the resistance or the military, 1:50:30.280 --> 1:50:32.600 and seems like more of them a choosing their resistance. 1:50:33.600 --> 1:50:36.000 Some of the conscriptions, you know, people can buy out 1:50:36.040 --> 1:50:39.240 of them, which obviously causes not great for the morale 1:50:39.479 --> 1:50:42.879 of the population. And that's combined with shortages and inflation. 1:50:43.840 --> 1:50:46.479 Pretty shit situation for folks living under Hunter. 1:50:46.680 --> 1:50:49.639 Oh yeah, absolutely, I mean, I think the memor of military. 1:50:49.640 --> 1:50:51.120 I mean there's a big question here about like the 1:50:51.160 --> 1:50:54.720 resilience of this mea or military. I mean, frankly in 1:50:55.360 --> 1:50:58.599 militaries in other countries have collapsed in are much less pressure. 1:50:59.000 --> 1:51:02.000 So there's a question here about like what is holding 1:51:02.040 --> 1:51:07.040 this all together, particularly given that its primary resilience factors 1:51:07.120 --> 1:51:11.240 are heavily degraded. I mean things like it's ideological value. 1:51:11.280 --> 1:51:13.439 I mean, it's historically been about but we hold the 1:51:13.439 --> 1:51:17.320 country together, we manage the diversity of this complex country, 1:51:17.600 --> 1:51:22.360 we defend the Bamar and the Buddhist populations. These factors 1:51:22.400 --> 1:51:24.559 are no longer credible. I think it's more than one 1:51:24.600 --> 1:51:28.280 hundred thousand homes in central Burma have been burned to 1:51:28.320 --> 1:51:31.360 the grounds. Most of those are Bamar Buddhists, and you 1:51:31.400 --> 1:51:33.879 know someone in the Sanga have risen up. The Buddhist 1:51:33.880 --> 1:51:36.599 Songa have risen up in protests, including a recent killing 1:51:36.640 --> 1:51:40.200 of a senior monk. So I think that ideological foundation 1:51:40.400 --> 1:51:43.840 is totally degraded. The other factors, which are economic, the 1:51:43.840 --> 1:51:47.559 economic benefits of being in this institution are also withering, 1:51:47.880 --> 1:51:51.000 as like the entire economy is collapsing as your reference. 1:51:51.160 --> 1:51:53.559 And then the third component is like the social status 1:51:53.560 --> 1:51:55.559 that want to cheese through. Being a member of this 1:51:55.680 --> 1:51:59.000 institution used to be a place where you could get 1:51:59.040 --> 1:52:02.559 economic benefits and social benefits, and now it's really neither. 1:52:02.600 --> 1:52:07.520 I mean, you're reviled or a target for resistance assassination 1:52:07.600 --> 1:52:10.479 if you're affiliated with the institution. So I think the 1:52:10.600 --> 1:52:12.759 question remains as so like what are the key factors 1:52:12.800 --> 1:52:15.320 keeping it in place given all of these pressures that 1:52:15.360 --> 1:52:17.720 it's facing. And happy to go into that, but I 1:52:17.720 --> 1:52:22.160 think there it's an interesting case study in institutional resilience 1:52:22.439 --> 1:52:26.160 and the challenges faced by a resistance movement that has 1:52:26.479 --> 1:52:30.280 major resource constraints and you're fighting up against a military 1:52:30.320 --> 1:52:36.600 institution that has learned how to orchestrate and sustain authoritarian 1:52:37.080 --> 1:52:39.280 governance structures for decades. 1:52:39.439 --> 1:52:42.479 So yeah, yeah, yeah, I think we can maybe circle 1:52:42.520 --> 1:52:44.320 back to that. One thing I did want to talk 1:52:44.360 --> 1:52:46.799 about before we move on to talking about what's happening 1:52:46.800 --> 1:52:48.960 in recind State, is I wanted to talk about the 1:52:49.000 --> 1:52:52.240 recent flooding that people will have probably seen if they 1:52:53.000 --> 1:52:56.320 have these friends on social media or keep it keep 1:52:56.320 --> 1:52:59.479 an eye on publications in a region. Can you explain 1:52:59.520 --> 1:53:01.280 a little bit of about like the scale of the 1:53:01.320 --> 1:53:05.240 flooding and it absolutely bungled, if any response from NAPE 1:53:05.320 --> 1:53:06.080 door Sure. 1:53:06.280 --> 1:53:08.439 Yeah, I think the latest figures that I've seen were 1:53:08.479 --> 1:53:11.679 one hundred and sixty thousand displaced, six hundred and thirty 1:53:12.360 --> 1:53:15.440 affected by the floods, two one hundred. 1:53:15.200 --> 1:53:18.040 And thirty dead, and seventy missing. I think that's what 1:53:18.080 --> 1:53:18.800 I saw this morning. 1:53:18.800 --> 1:53:20.840 But yeah, I mean I think that gives you a 1:53:20.880 --> 1:53:25.400 sense that this is another humanitarian catastrophe on top of 1:53:25.600 --> 1:53:28.559 a I think what is now rated the second most 1:53:28.560 --> 1:53:31.640 intent violent conflict in the world by Accolade. 1:53:31.960 --> 1:53:35.080 So this is just one crisis on top of another. 1:53:35.640 --> 1:53:38.400 And yeah, as you kind of alluded to, the Memora 1:53:38.400 --> 1:53:42.759 military is incapable and in unwilling to kind of address 1:53:42.840 --> 1:53:44.720 the needs here of the population. 1:53:45.280 --> 1:53:47.160 I mean, the one factor is that they. 1:53:47.040 --> 1:53:50.840 Don't have territorial control to move resources if they had 1:53:50.880 --> 1:53:52.840 the political will to provide assistance. 1:53:53.400 --> 1:53:56.040 But of course they're doing the exact opposite. 1:53:56.160 --> 1:53:58.599 In some of the most flood affected parts of the country, 1:53:58.960 --> 1:54:01.520 they are continuing to conduct. 1:54:01.120 --> 1:54:03.680 Air strikes on civilian populations. 1:54:03.760 --> 1:54:05.960 Yeah, I mean it's it's just kind of a level 1:54:06.000 --> 1:54:09.000 of brutality that's kind of hard to have them. But yeah, 1:54:09.040 --> 1:54:11.439 I mean there's all these other kind of ancillary effects 1:54:11.479 --> 1:54:14.439 of this. I think there's signs of a cholera outbreak 1:54:14.479 --> 1:54:18.320 and young gone. The economic conditions, as you mentioned a 1:54:18.360 --> 1:54:22.400 little bit earlier, are horrendous. I mean, like the economy 1:54:22.479 --> 1:54:23.920 is a lost thirty percent of its value, and it's 1:54:23.920 --> 1:54:26.760 not a rich country to begin with. Inflation is I 1:54:26.800 --> 1:54:30.120 think thirty two percent year on year, with the memoar 1:54:30.280 --> 1:54:33.880 Chat having lost two hundred percent of its value, I mean, yeah, 1:54:33.920 --> 1:54:34.320 it's two. 1:54:34.280 --> 1:54:37.480 Hundred percent less value than it was. Yeah, So this 1:54:37.640 --> 1:54:39.600 is like, you know, it's. 1:54:39.400 --> 1:54:43.240 Just one catastrophe on top of another, and it's really 1:54:43.280 --> 1:54:47.760 testing the memur public's capacity to kind of support one another, 1:54:47.960 --> 1:54:51.400 which is that's really been the incredible story here, and 1:54:51.400 --> 1:54:53.960 it's not the first time that the Memmour military, the 1:54:54.000 --> 1:54:58.040 governing stakeholder, has failed to meet the needs, and that 1:54:58.120 --> 1:55:01.640 moment of crisis. Of course, Psycho Nargis, one of the 1:55:01.640 --> 1:55:06.560 worst natural disasters in the region's history, was another instance 1:55:06.560 --> 1:55:10.200 in which the memor military refused international assistance and kind 1:55:10.240 --> 1:55:14.920 of instrumentalized humanitarian catastrophe for political aims. 1:55:15.720 --> 1:55:15.960 Yeah. 1:55:16.040 --> 1:55:18.400 Yeah, and I think people it's worth reading up on 1:55:18.440 --> 1:55:21.200 that if you're interested in like the sort of longer 1:55:21.320 --> 1:55:24.840 term history of the conflict and of sort of the 1:55:24.880 --> 1:55:27.320 military and Memma. Maybe now it's a good time to 1:55:27.320 --> 1:55:29.000 take a break and we'll come back and discuss a 1:55:29.040 --> 1:55:30.879 little bit about Rakine State. 1:55:40.320 --> 1:55:41.760 And we're back, okay. 1:55:42.160 --> 1:55:46.440 So I think if people follow the conflict, they will 1:55:46.480 --> 1:55:50.200 have probably seen like a series of conflicting and confusing 1:55:50.920 --> 1:55:53.480 articles and messages about what's going on. 1:55:53.640 --> 1:55:54.400 In Rakind today. 1:55:54.440 --> 1:55:57.680 And some of that is because there's not a great 1:55:57.720 --> 1:56:00.760 deal of reporting in the English language, deal of sources 1:56:00.760 --> 1:56:03.320 in the English language, and even if there is, that 1:56:03.400 --> 1:56:05.560 none of us can really make it to Rakine State 1:56:05.640 --> 1:56:08.240 right now. Going through Bangladesh would be quite quite a 1:56:08.320 --> 1:56:12.400 challenging thing to do at this time, and so I 1:56:12.400 --> 1:56:15.080 guess we should start breaking down if people aren't aware 1:56:15.640 --> 1:56:17.560 the people who live and have lived for a long 1:56:17.600 --> 1:56:20.040 time in Racine State and the conflicts have fixed it 1:56:20.280 --> 1:56:21.760 between them and the Burmese state. 1:56:22.160 --> 1:56:22.920 Sure yeah, I. 1:56:22.920 --> 1:56:26.400 Mean ro Kinda State borders Bangladesh on the western side 1:56:26.440 --> 1:56:30.560 of your marts along coastal border as well, and the 1:56:30.600 --> 1:56:34.160 site of some of the largest extractive oil and gas projects, 1:56:34.160 --> 1:56:37.200 including the terminal for a major gas pipeline that feeds 1:56:37.240 --> 1:56:41.120 fourteen percent of u Non Province's GP, So it has 1:56:41.520 --> 1:56:42.680 huge strategic value. 1:56:42.720 --> 1:56:45.360 It's also China's aiming. 1:56:45.040 --> 1:56:49.560 To kind of access the Indian Ocean and circumvent the 1:56:49.600 --> 1:56:53.160 Strait of Malacca by going directly to this kind of 1:56:53.240 --> 1:56:59.200 regional the country, so it's highly strategically important. But it's 1:56:59.240 --> 1:57:02.360 also I think it's the second poorest state in the 1:57:02.520 --> 1:57:05.680 entire country and arguably the most conflict affected. 1:57:05.720 --> 1:57:07.760 At least since twenty twelve ish. 1:57:08.240 --> 1:57:12.840 So the population of rakind State is highly diverse, kind 1:57:12.880 --> 1:57:15.880 of the last year to have the broader countries demographics. 1:57:16.040 --> 1:57:19.400 It includes a Bamar population, which is the dominant ethnic 1:57:19.400 --> 1:57:22.920 group at the national level. The ethnic majority is kind 1:57:23.520 --> 1:57:27.840 there's I mean, historically a very large Muslim population of 1:57:27.920 --> 1:57:31.960 Rawhinjo Muslims primarily, but also other Muslim minority groups including 1:57:32.000 --> 1:57:36.400 Kaman Muslims, and then a number of other smaller ethnic 1:57:36.520 --> 1:57:40.680 minority groups Mramaji, Kami and others, as well as a 1:57:40.680 --> 1:57:42.520 small Hindu population. So you can kind of get the 1:57:42.560 --> 1:57:46.240 sense that this is a highly diverse space. I mean, 1:57:46.280 --> 1:57:50.320 many of the listeners will have heard twenty sixteen twenty seventeen, 1:57:50.680 --> 1:57:53.520 Go was the site of a massive clearance operation and 1:57:53.560 --> 1:57:57.600 the genocide of Rhinja Muslims, about seven hundred and fifty 1:57:57.600 --> 1:58:00.440 thousand of whom were pushed into Bangladesh, and all of 1:58:00.440 --> 1:58:02.160 them are still there. 1:58:02.280 --> 1:58:05.160 Inhabiting the largest refugee camp in the world. 1:58:05.480 --> 1:58:10.640 Yeah, I mean overall conditions for the Hinja, It's hard 1:58:10.680 --> 1:58:16.520 to imagine a more difficult set of conditions. The Bangladesh 1:58:16.680 --> 1:58:21.800 government is quite impatient, having hosted many hundreds of thousands 1:58:21.840 --> 1:58:25.280 of Arhinja, some for seven years but others for actually 1:58:25.320 --> 1:58:28.480 for much longer than that. As twenty sixteen twenty seventeen 1:58:28.680 --> 1:58:31.720 was a moment in a genocide, but there have been 1:58:31.760 --> 1:58:36.280 instances of memoir military atrocities against the Hindu population dating 1:58:36.280 --> 1:58:38.760 back to the nineteen seventies as well. So this is 1:58:38.800 --> 1:58:42.360 a long term kind of situation in which the Bangladesh 1:58:42.400 --> 1:58:45.240 have been hosting Rehinja And yeah, I mean I think 1:58:45.280 --> 1:58:49.120 conditions in those camps are really really challenging. The major 1:58:49.160 --> 1:58:51.760 issue now is the arising and security in the camps, 1:58:51.800 --> 1:58:56.800 as some Rhinja militia groups have gained ascendency in the camps, 1:58:57.120 --> 1:58:59.720 most of which have very little public support. 1:59:00.040 --> 1:59:01.680 Population should be noted. 1:59:02.160 --> 1:59:05.800 The major dynamic that that's happened recently, I mean the 1:59:05.920 --> 1:59:10.080 Arakan Army, which is almost entirely of Kine ethnic groups 1:59:10.120 --> 1:59:13.160 and has broad public support among the Rakaine population of 1:59:13.240 --> 1:59:17.560 Rikine State, has made massive advances across Rakine State and 1:59:17.600 --> 1:59:20.680 now controls virtually all of northern Rakine State and is 1:59:20.720 --> 1:59:25.040 pushing south. It took the city of Tondue and the airport, 1:59:25.080 --> 1:59:27.800 which is the first time a resistance group had taken 1:59:28.080 --> 1:59:31.000 an airport. It recently took a naval base, the first 1:59:31.000 --> 1:59:32.800 time that has ever happened in the history of the 1:59:32.880 --> 1:59:36.160 Memory military. And now it's pushing as far south as Guas, 1:59:36.800 --> 1:59:39.480 potentially threatening to control the entire state. 1:59:39.840 --> 1:59:41.520 So as this has. 1:59:41.400 --> 1:59:45.720 Occurred, the MIMR military is in a state of complete panic, 1:59:46.040 --> 1:59:50.000 and as it is losing forces on this front but 1:59:50.120 --> 1:59:53.880 also on numerous other fronts, it has attempted to kind 1:59:53.880 --> 1:59:57.400 of buttress its forces through force conscription and in the 1:59:57.480 --> 2:00:02.000 most potentially the most horrifying move, it is forcibly conscripted 2:00:02.320 --> 2:00:07.320 the Rowhinja into the MR military. They conducted genocide against 2:00:07.320 --> 2:00:09.840 the Rhinda population and now they are forcing them to 2:00:09.880 --> 2:00:12.880 wear the uniform of their genocider. It's kind of a 2:00:13.040 --> 2:00:17.960 level of horror that's hard to understand. And one way 2:00:17.960 --> 2:00:22.600 in which they've undertaken this effort is by collaborating with 2:00:22.800 --> 2:00:27.880 Rehindra militia forces including ARSA, the Salvation Army and the 2:00:27.960 --> 2:00:31.560 Rhindra Saldarity Organization ARSO, which have presence in the camps 2:00:31.640 --> 2:00:35.520 and have been facilitating recruitment from the camps. So the 2:00:35.560 --> 2:00:38.480 primary aim here as a military one, but a secondary aim, 2:00:38.480 --> 2:00:43.600 which is really critical it is undermining inter cohesion in 2:00:43.840 --> 2:00:48.200 kind state because ultimately, like the MR military operates through coercion, 2:00:48.280 --> 2:00:51.400 force and violence, but also through fragmentation so that it 2:00:51.440 --> 2:00:55.000 doesn't face a unified resistance, and in this case they 2:00:55.040 --> 2:00:59.560 want to incite instability by creating hatred between the Rhindra 2:00:59.640 --> 2:01:02.880 and in population and building off of the vitriol that 2:01:03.560 --> 2:01:06.600 had built over decades. So this is kind of a 2:01:06.640 --> 2:01:09.840 new paradigm that everyone is trying to better understand. 2:01:10.240 --> 2:01:12.840 But yeah, it's it's kind of a new level of horror. 2:01:13.640 --> 2:01:16.000 Yeah, and it's particularly horrific. As you say, I think 2:01:16.040 --> 2:01:19.880 sometimes there's a tendency, especially with people who perhaps are 2:01:19.920 --> 2:01:22.400 not as familiar with the situation and history there, to 2:01:22.520 --> 2:01:25.680 lump ethnic groups in as sort of monolithic actors, right 2:01:25.760 --> 2:01:28.640 or homogeneous to be like, Okay, so they're a hinja 2:01:28.760 --> 2:01:32.000 as represented by Arsa and the rso have joined the Hunter, 2:01:32.400 --> 2:01:35.920 which is not the case. Like every Rhina person I 2:01:35.920 --> 2:01:39.440 speak to, everyone I speak to in Cox's Bizarre shares 2:01:39.760 --> 2:01:43.640 a loathing for those organizations. They're forced conscription of young people, 2:01:44.280 --> 2:01:46.560 and yeah, their solidarity with the Hunter that committed the 2:01:46.560 --> 2:01:49.120 genocide against and it continues to commit a genocide against 2:01:49.120 --> 2:01:52.320 these people. And I think the first thing we need 2:01:52.320 --> 2:01:54.720 to do is move away from that kind of homogeneous perspective. 2:01:54.760 --> 2:01:58.040 But maybe we could explain there have been a few 2:01:58.360 --> 2:02:05.120 accusations of the arkon Omy making attacks against a range 2:02:05.160 --> 2:02:07.960 of people, right range of specifically Raine of people who 2:02:08.000 --> 2:02:10.720 are not armed, who are not part of ours are. Yeah, 2:02:10.920 --> 2:02:13.080 can you explain what we know and what we don't 2:02:13.120 --> 2:02:13.720 know there? 2:02:14.120 --> 2:02:14.440 Sure? 2:02:14.560 --> 2:02:16.960 Yeah, I think there's just to start. 2:02:17.040 --> 2:02:20.920 There is a massive fog of war in Rekind state, 2:02:21.000 --> 2:02:23.680 may be worse than any other part of the country, 2:02:23.800 --> 2:02:27.800 so it is really difficult to disentangle fact from fiction here. 2:02:27.840 --> 2:02:31.240 But I think there's pretty credible evidence that the army 2:02:31.680 --> 2:02:36.280 have committed atrosities against Rahinda civilian populations. In early August, 2:02:36.320 --> 2:02:39.280 there was a specific incident in which hundreds of Rahina 2:02:39.320 --> 2:02:44.000 were killed in a drone strike, and Fortified Rights, which 2:02:44.040 --> 2:02:48.480 is a human rights organization, conducted investigation to the incident 2:02:49.040 --> 2:02:52.040 and asserts that the Arkon Army was responsible for that. 2:02:52.560 --> 2:02:56.600 Of course, the AA disputes these claims. And I think 2:02:56.600 --> 2:02:59.360 there's a few recent interviews with the commander in chief 2:02:59.680 --> 2:03:03.960 of the army to nine where you know, he articulates 2:03:04.040 --> 2:03:05.600 the side of the story, which you can find on 2:03:05.680 --> 2:03:08.600 Irwadi dot com and I think in a few other 2:03:08.640 --> 2:03:09.320 news outlets. 2:03:09.640 --> 2:03:12.120 Yeah, the diplomat did one as well. He's been on 2:03:12.160 --> 2:03:14.600 a publicity tour, I guess recently. 2:03:15.040 --> 2:03:16.000 Yeah, absolutely. 2:03:16.360 --> 2:03:18.560 I don't know if you've seen this, but like his 2:03:18.560 --> 2:03:23.680 his tendency to cool hinder people bangladeshis it is unfortunate 2:03:23.840 --> 2:03:25.880 given that that's a language that was used to justify 2:03:25.920 --> 2:03:27.440 the genocide. 2:03:26.960 --> 2:03:29.800 Right, absolutely, Yeah, it reflects kind of the language that 2:03:29.840 --> 2:03:31.240 the Memora military used. 2:03:31.280 --> 2:03:34.839 Well, Bengali's he'll call them exactly. Yeah, it's very reflective 2:03:34.840 --> 2:03:35.040 of that. 2:03:35.320 --> 2:03:35.600 Yeah. 2:03:35.600 --> 2:03:38.440 So this is really challenging, and part because I think 2:03:38.480 --> 2:03:41.640 that there is kind of an important distinction between the 2:03:41.680 --> 2:03:43.960 Metamora military and the ark Army in this case, in 2:03:44.000 --> 2:03:47.200 part because the ar Army has like raw public support 2:03:47.440 --> 2:03:51.520 among the kind public, and so it has a more 2:03:51.560 --> 2:03:55.640 of a legitimate stake to governance than the Memora military, 2:03:55.680 --> 2:03:58.000 which has none. And so this is it's kind of 2:03:58.080 --> 2:04:02.440 an issue that requires a tension and an honest accounting 2:04:02.520 --> 2:04:07.000 of the facts and a long process of reconciliation or 2:04:07.080 --> 2:04:09.080 because of the ark On Army is likely there to 2:04:09.200 --> 2:04:12.960 stay as a governing stakeholder. So that is a really 2:04:13.040 --> 2:04:15.000 tricky kind of set of conditions. 2:04:15.200 --> 2:04:18.400 And the other side of this is that the rekined public. 2:04:18.480 --> 2:04:21.280 I think there is a deep sense of a grievance 2:04:21.480 --> 2:04:23.760 among the rekind public, and this is a population that 2:04:23.800 --> 2:04:29.360 has also faced years of intense political alienation and persecution. 2:04:29.040 --> 2:04:30.800 Not to mention war and violence. 2:04:31.480 --> 2:04:33.760 You know, last year when Cyclo and Moca hit the 2:04:33.880 --> 2:04:37.760 Kind State, the Memora military did virtually nothing to help them. 2:04:37.920 --> 2:04:41.280 So it's a population with legitimate agrievances and they and 2:04:41.360 --> 2:04:44.320 their perception is that the international community only focuses on 2:04:44.760 --> 2:04:46.200 the revent of public's well being. 2:04:46.600 --> 2:04:48.040 And I think the international community can. 2:04:47.960 --> 2:04:50.720 Do a better job of showing sympathy for the rekined 2:04:50.760 --> 2:04:54.000 public's interests. I think sympathy is not like zero sum 2:04:54.040 --> 2:04:56.040 in that sense, and that needs to be done better. 2:04:56.360 --> 2:05:00.880 But honestly, like the equating a grievances is also really 2:05:01.040 --> 2:05:03.320 kind of unfair and dishonest. And you know, this Hindu 2:05:03.400 --> 2:05:08.360 population is marginalized to just such an extreme degree. 2:05:08.640 --> 2:05:10.880 And so those are a really interesting report by Doctors 2:05:10.920 --> 2:05:11.760 Without Borders not. 2:05:11.720 --> 2:05:14.360 Too long ago it that showed that only like six 2:05:14.440 --> 2:05:17.320 hundred thousand of the two point eight million Rahinja in 2:05:17.360 --> 2:05:20.760 the world within MR, fifty seven percent are living in 2:05:20.800 --> 2:05:24.880 camps and Bangladesh or in IDP camps in Memr. So 2:05:24.920 --> 2:05:28.120 it's like there's just like a highly vulnerable population that 2:05:28.160 --> 2:05:30.000 has experienced genocide. 2:05:30.120 --> 2:05:33.040 You know, it's like there are there's a power imbalance, you. 2:05:32.960 --> 2:05:34.880 Know, So it's like, I think it's not the same. 2:05:35.240 --> 2:05:35.680 I don't know. 2:05:35.920 --> 2:05:41.240 The whole process of kind Rhinda reconciliation is one that 2:05:41.320 --> 2:05:45.200 deserves immediate and urgent attention, but there's also a long 2:05:45.280 --> 2:05:49.240 term process of constructing, you know, a governance structure that 2:05:49.400 --> 2:05:52.560 is acceptable and that's not a highly exclusionary of Rhinda 2:05:52.640 --> 2:05:55.240 and these sorts of things. So it's a it's a 2:05:55.280 --> 2:05:57.920 highly and beyond the fact that like we need more 2:05:58.200 --> 2:06:02.760 a deliberate investigation these incidents, I think a broader conversational 2:06:02.800 --> 2:06:05.320 reconciliation and justice needs to needs to take place. 2:06:05.800 --> 2:06:08.520 Yeah, and it's definitely one at least, you know, I 2:06:08.520 --> 2:06:10.440 speak to people who are probably on the more progressive 2:06:10.520 --> 2:06:14.120 side of the resistance, and it's one that they've acknowledged, 2:06:14.160 --> 2:06:16.120 like it's something that they need to address and kind 2:06:16.120 --> 2:06:21.120 of the litmus test for like a post hunter me 2:06:21.280 --> 2:06:23.480 and Mars, like are there places for these people who 2:06:23.520 --> 2:06:26.440 they weren't places for in this state before? But yeah, 2:06:26.640 --> 2:06:29.800 how we get there is it's difficult, and I don't 2:06:29.800 --> 2:06:32.360 think that's not that's not a clear pathway that anyone's 2:06:32.440 --> 2:06:34.880 kind of pointed to this yet Yeah. 2:06:34.920 --> 2:06:37.440 The one thing I would add is like this is 2:06:37.520 --> 2:06:42.080 sort of emblematic of broader perceptions of MEMR and approaches 2:06:42.120 --> 2:06:44.880 to peace building a MEMR is that there's there's often 2:06:44.920 --> 2:06:47.160 a horizontal approach that like we need to work on 2:06:47.200 --> 2:06:51.680 the intercommunal level, individual level trust building that sort of thing, 2:06:51.920 --> 2:06:54.000 And I think there is a place for that for sure. 2:06:54.440 --> 2:06:57.760 But we've done a couple of pieces of research with 2:06:57.880 --> 2:07:01.080 an academic at ug Austin who has found some really 2:07:01.080 --> 2:07:03.920 interesting stuff about like the nature of conflict in the 2:07:03.960 --> 2:07:07.080 country and nature of cohesion in the country. And she's 2:07:07.120 --> 2:07:10.800 found including through some experimental research studies and designs which 2:07:10.840 --> 2:07:15.280 are quite revealing. I think that national identity is often 2:07:15.840 --> 2:07:20.040 more important to respondence in her surveys than ethnic identity, 2:07:20.400 --> 2:07:23.080 which is which kind of cuts against like the traditional 2:07:23.160 --> 2:07:27.040 perceptions of how MEMRA is, like, oh, it's this irreconcilable, 2:07:27.040 --> 2:07:30.680 fractious place and it's so hard to build trust between communities. 2:07:30.200 --> 2:07:31.200 And that sort of thing. 2:07:31.200 --> 2:07:34.240 But her research kind of points to the vertical dimension 2:07:34.360 --> 2:07:38.400 where it's the nature of memorpolitics and the nature of 2:07:38.600 --> 2:07:44.240 governance structures that highly exclusionary, discriminatory governance structures have sustained 2:07:45.080 --> 2:07:47.520 conflict for so long in the country, and this is 2:07:47.600 --> 2:07:50.200 kind of like the main argument for the resistance. You know, 2:07:50.280 --> 2:07:52.640 it's like a lot of the safeholders, at least a 2:07:52.640 --> 2:07:56.520 critical mass within this resistance movement, they're trying to assert 2:07:56.560 --> 2:07:59.480 a new political paradigm in the country, you know, a 2:07:59.520 --> 2:08:03.120 more state about political paradigm in which the mem R 2:08:03.240 --> 2:08:06.360 military is not a dominant stakeholder, in which violence is 2:08:06.360 --> 2:08:09.120 not your source of power, yeah, and which that's not 2:08:09.840 --> 2:08:12.480 built on exclusionary norms of belonging. 2:08:12.760 --> 2:08:15.120 So it's like it is generally a revolution. 2:08:14.840 --> 2:08:17.640 In this sense, and that is why they're they're kind 2:08:17.680 --> 2:08:21.320 of pushing against the international pressures to enter into a 2:08:21.360 --> 2:08:24.200 power sharing your dream with the MR military, because there's 2:08:24.240 --> 2:08:26.640 a perception that if the MEMR military remains in a 2:08:26.680 --> 2:08:30.560 position of political power, they will interrupt this reform process 2:08:30.920 --> 2:08:33.080 and then violence will persist. 2:08:32.840 --> 2:08:33.440 In the country. 2:08:33.880 --> 2:08:34.160 Yeah. 2:08:34.280 --> 2:08:38.400 Yeah, And I think that's probably a reasonable assumption to make. Like, again, 2:08:38.440 --> 2:08:40.400 this is like one of those things that I see 2:08:40.400 --> 2:08:43.440 a lot in different places in the world where I go, right, 2:08:43.480 --> 2:08:46.400 that's this tendency to see things, I think from sort 2:08:46.400 --> 2:08:49.160 of colonial perspective and just be like, oh, these ethnicities 2:08:49.200 --> 2:08:52.320 will squabble and fight, and like that's not necessarily the 2:08:52.360 --> 2:08:55.000 case at all, and like if you look even to 2:08:55.200 --> 2:08:57.400 the PDFs, like I was speaking to someone the other 2:08:57.480 --> 2:09:00.880 day who was saying, like, there're a job Mostlim women 2:09:01.320 --> 2:09:04.440 fighting with the Koren right now, which is something that 2:09:04.480 --> 2:09:08.040 doesn't align up with this idea of like ethnicities which 2:09:08.040 --> 2:09:10.000 are clashing and can't combine. 2:09:10.080 --> 2:09:12.080 And we saw like. 2:09:12.200 --> 2:09:16.880 A statement of solidarity from the Kareni to the Kurdish people, 2:09:16.920 --> 2:09:19.959 which doesn't line up with this idea of an inherently 2:09:20.000 --> 2:09:23.839 Islamophobic like it you know, sort of massive of Buddhist 2:09:23.920 --> 2:09:26.120 people in the Amma, which I think, yeah, it's a 2:09:26.120 --> 2:09:29.960 little oversimplified to say that stuff, and I think sometimes reductive, 2:09:30.000 --> 2:09:34.280 And it's the analysis of mean Mar like as a 2:09:34.320 --> 2:09:39.400 place where colonialism is still occurring, and the methods of colonialism, 2:09:39.440 --> 2:09:43.480 like lots of the things you describe right, like promoting fractures, 2:09:44.160 --> 2:09:46.760 promoting these different ethnic identities which are seen as kind 2:09:46.760 --> 2:09:49.640 of zero sum and mutually exclusive. These are things that 2:09:49.680 --> 2:09:51.920 the United Kingdom did or Britain did all around the 2:09:51.960 --> 2:09:56.760 world for centuries. And it's not rocket science to see 2:09:56.760 --> 2:09:59.800 how that jumps to another group which especially in some 2:10:00.040 --> 2:10:02.640 it is was trained by the British or had relations 2:10:02.680 --> 2:10:04.720 with the British, and you know, to see how we 2:10:04.760 --> 2:10:05.200 got there. 2:10:05.560 --> 2:10:08.400 But I think we'll take a little break here. 2:10:08.840 --> 2:10:11.200 We'll come back and I want to discuss the resilience 2:10:11.240 --> 2:10:13.480 of the Hunter and how it's hanging on. 2:10:22.200 --> 2:10:23.080 All right, we're back. 2:10:23.840 --> 2:10:26.880 So for the last little segment of this podcast, I 2:10:26.920 --> 2:10:31.680 would like to discuss how the Burmese military is holding 2:10:31.680 --> 2:10:34.880 onto power. When I speak to soldiers who have defected, 2:10:34.960 --> 2:10:38.520 I speak, I've spoken to about half a dozen I 2:10:38.560 --> 2:10:41.120 guess soldiers who have defected over time. It's almost comic 2:10:41.800 --> 2:10:45.840 how disorganized and chaotic things are, and at the same 2:10:45.920 --> 2:10:48.960 time it's terrible the way, like every single one of 2:10:49.000 --> 2:10:51.800 them has described to me that their families are essentially 2:10:51.800 --> 2:10:54.400 held as collateral to stop them deserting, right, and so 2:10:54.480 --> 2:10:57.600 they had to work with the civil disobedience movement to 2:10:57.640 --> 2:11:01.480 first extract their families before they themselves took their weapons 2:11:01.520 --> 2:11:03.120 in most cases because they get a bounty for their 2:11:03.160 --> 2:11:06.120 weapons and went to join their resistance or in some 2:11:06.200 --> 2:11:10.720 cases went into exile. So like, maybe that gives us 2:11:10.760 --> 2:11:14.040 a good view on how the Hunter is. It's continuing 2:11:14.080 --> 2:11:16.640 to force people to fight in this war that it's losing. 2:11:16.840 --> 2:11:18.720 Can you explain a little bit of how they've held 2:11:18.760 --> 2:11:19.360 onto power? 2:11:19.680 --> 2:11:21.840 Sure, yeah, I guess the first thing to note is 2:11:21.880 --> 2:11:24.440 that rates of defection are totally historic. 2:11:24.640 --> 2:11:27.000 I mean, yeah, there's by. 2:11:26.880 --> 2:11:32.320 Our account, about fifteen thousand deserters, which is actually not radically. 2:11:32.000 --> 2:11:33.600 Different than historical norms. 2:11:33.960 --> 2:11:37.360 The mem or military has comparatively high rates of desertion 2:11:37.560 --> 2:11:41.480 even before the coup, so that's not far outside of 2:11:42.160 --> 2:11:44.640 the norm. But the defection, I think there's about fifty 2:11:44.640 --> 2:11:48.200 eight hundred defectors by our account since the coup, which 2:11:48.240 --> 2:11:52.800 is unprecedented. There's never never really been defection to resistance 2:11:52.880 --> 2:11:56.760 in memr's history. The other factor is the number of 2:11:56.960 --> 2:12:00.760 individuals who are surrendering without a fight with you know, 2:12:00.840 --> 2:12:04.280 with with putting up little resistance. That number is hard 2:12:04.320 --> 2:12:06.920 to count, but it's by our by our raid, it 2:12:06.960 --> 2:12:10.560 seems to be quite high. There's forms of acts of 2:12:10.600 --> 2:12:16.120 disloyalty occurring that are not you know, spurring institutional collapse, 2:12:16.240 --> 2:12:20.280 but are that are degrading the memoir of military's fighting capabilities, 2:12:20.280 --> 2:12:20.760 which is. 2:12:20.680 --> 2:12:23.600 A really important dynamic. So say that at the outset outset. 2:12:23.840 --> 2:12:25.320 The other thing i'd say is that, like I think 2:12:25.360 --> 2:12:27.960 we need to sort of think about this at three levels. So, 2:12:28.080 --> 2:12:33.360 like the rank and file soldiers, they are significantly demoralized. 2:12:33.600 --> 2:12:36.200 Most did not join the military to fight. They joined 2:12:36.240 --> 2:12:40.680 the military for economic stability and for social status, and 2:12:41.040 --> 2:12:45.800 neither of those are available to them under this military's leadership. 2:12:46.000 --> 2:12:48.960 They certainly did not join to commit atrocities against the 2:12:49.000 --> 2:12:51.960 Bamar Buddhist population, which is now what they're enforced to. 2:12:52.080 --> 2:12:55.040 So I think that population, the large number of rank 2:12:55.040 --> 2:12:58.760 and file soldiers, is highly demoralized, and that's where you 2:12:58.800 --> 2:13:02.920 have seen lots of desertion defection, often from the front lines. 2:13:03.000 --> 2:13:06.240 Though that population's defection desertion is not going to trigger 2:13:06.280 --> 2:13:07.200 institutional collapse. 2:13:07.680 --> 2:13:10.800 At the second level, you have like a commander, Core, Major, 2:13:11.360 --> 2:13:12.560 Major and above. 2:13:12.360 --> 2:13:16.600 And these I think since Operation ten twenty seven you've 2:13:16.640 --> 2:13:21.720 seen their morale to drop. And I mean there's been 2:13:22.080 --> 2:13:24.160 the fall of Last Show and the loss of the 2:13:24.200 --> 2:13:26.760 Northeast Regional Command, the first time in the Manor's history 2:13:26.760 --> 2:13:29.680 that a regional command's been taken. That has sent shockways 2:13:29.800 --> 2:13:35.520 through the commander level. The other thing is that min Onlign, 2:13:35.640 --> 2:13:40.480 the Commander in chief in his attempt to consolidate power 2:13:40.480 --> 2:13:44.240 and protect himself from from internal fragmentation. 2:13:44.960 --> 2:13:48.120 He's rotating commanders. 2:13:47.360 --> 2:13:49.960 Based on loyalty, not based on effectiveness, which is also 2:13:50.000 --> 2:13:54.000 degrading the Memora military's fighting capability. But it's also that's 2:13:54.040 --> 2:13:56.200 maybe one reason why you have seen less acts of 2:13:56.240 --> 2:13:59.680 disloyalty within that layer at the senior level. I mean 2:13:59.720 --> 2:14:03.920 most most of those senior Memorr military officials who are 2:14:03.920 --> 2:14:08.440 based in Apida, I think they until the fall of 2:14:08.520 --> 2:14:12.480 Latio and the resistance moving into Mandalay, there was relatively 2:14:12.560 --> 2:14:17.480 high levels of sense of security and morale was okay, 2:14:17.560 --> 2:14:20.400 I suppose, But the fall of Las SiO and the 2:14:20.560 --> 2:14:25.000 ensuing events has really inflamed internal frustration from what we understand. 2:14:25.720 --> 2:14:29.840 So this has also triggered some shifts in the way 2:14:29.840 --> 2:14:33.520 in which the MEMR military operates its patronage structures. So 2:14:33.840 --> 2:14:36.680 traditionally the patriot in structure is essentially like a feudal state. 2:14:37.040 --> 2:14:38.960 I mean, you have like a commander in chief that 2:14:39.080 --> 2:14:43.400 is extremely powerful, has authority to rotate or fire or 2:14:43.520 --> 2:14:44.640 arrest virtually anyone. 2:14:44.680 --> 2:14:46.880 I mean, just huge amounts of powers centralized there. 2:14:47.200 --> 2:14:50.560 The deputy commander in chief has little capability to challenge 2:14:50.840 --> 2:14:52.960 the commander in chief's authority. But then you have these 2:14:53.000 --> 2:14:56.879 regional commanders that operate as feudal lords. 2:14:56.960 --> 2:14:57.920 At the regional level. 2:14:58.000 --> 2:15:01.320 They're able to extract huge amount ounts of value or 2:15:01.360 --> 2:15:05.240 wealth through attractive industries, illegal industries. 2:15:05.160 --> 2:15:06.520 All with total impunity. 2:15:06.560 --> 2:15:09.640 But often you know, with the approval of nepidal, and 2:15:09.680 --> 2:15:14.160 that approval was often just given. Now it's less it's 2:15:14.200 --> 2:15:17.800 less easily given. I mean, you've seen ninety senior officers 2:15:17.960 --> 2:15:22.400 shuffled changed positions since the coup, and fifty have been 2:15:22.840 --> 2:15:27.280 removed or arrested by our tracking, and you've also seen 2:15:27.360 --> 2:15:33.280 individuals detained and arrested because I think there's fifteen kernels 2:15:33.360 --> 2:15:37.080 or above, mostly brigadier generals and major generals who have 2:15:37.120 --> 2:15:41.280 been arrested for business related activities. 2:15:40.680 --> 2:15:43.400 Which I think is emblematic of like the. 2:15:43.360 --> 2:15:47.480 Restructuring of the patrinage network and centralizing the patronage network 2:15:47.720 --> 2:15:50.000 with men online himself. If you do not have his 2:15:50.080 --> 2:15:54.120 personal approval, you cannot conduct business activities, including these highly 2:15:54.200 --> 2:15:58.280 lucrative scam operations that are generating billions in value, but 2:15:58.360 --> 2:16:02.680 also really frustrating that I need. So this whole patient 2:16:02.680 --> 2:16:06.160 is structure which is critical to sustaining the Memora military 2:16:06.600 --> 2:16:09.040 is being reoriented, and we'll see whether or not that 2:16:09.080 --> 2:16:12.000 helps sustain the institution or introduces more instability. 2:16:12.320 --> 2:16:13.920 But ultimately, the forms. 2:16:13.560 --> 2:16:16.600 Of resilience I guess you would call it are the 2:16:16.640 --> 2:16:18.200 ones maybe you pointed to. 2:16:18.280 --> 2:16:21.840 I mean they're structure. I mean it's like rotating officer. 2:16:21.480 --> 2:16:27.240 Commanders and senior officers regularly holding families hostage. Essentially, you know, 2:16:27.720 --> 2:16:30.520 a soldier sent to the front lines, its family remains 2:16:30.520 --> 2:16:33.840 in the barracks. Payment is often made to the families, 2:16:33.879 --> 2:16:39.000 not to the front line's soldier, and there's retribution if 2:16:39.040 --> 2:16:41.120 the frontline soldier defects or deserts. 2:16:41.520 --> 2:16:42.800 This is also where the fifty eight. 2:16:42.840 --> 2:16:45.800 Hundred number I mentioned earlier is likely I radical undercounting 2:16:45.879 --> 2:16:49.240 because and also the fifteen thousand desertions because a lot 2:16:49.240 --> 2:16:52.720 of people are recorded as KIA when they're. 2:16:52.600 --> 2:16:55.360 Actually they've deserted or defected. 2:16:55.640 --> 2:16:58.160 So anyways, I'm not sure if that answers your question, 2:16:58.200 --> 2:17:01.080 which some thoughts relatively usually Yeah. 2:17:00.800 --> 2:17:02.280 No, I think it does. Yeah. 2:17:02.360 --> 2:17:04.520 One of the guys I met with described basically his 2:17:04.840 --> 2:17:09.640 entire I guess squad went out on a patrol and defected. 2:17:10.000 --> 2:17:12.520 I guess the PDF have been I had to describe 2:17:12.560 --> 2:17:15.680 it really, but it's basically shit talking them in their 2:17:15.720 --> 2:17:18.480 barracks or like in their position for months. Right, They're like, 2:17:18.560 --> 2:17:20.879 you see this a lot. It's a kind of unique 2:17:20.879 --> 2:17:23.240 feature of the of the conflict in the MMR, like 2:17:23.320 --> 2:17:26.760 guys with megaphones just being like, you can surrender if 2:17:26.800 --> 2:17:29.200 you want. You know, your life is miserable. And I 2:17:29.200 --> 2:17:31.240 guess in this case it worked. And yeah, they they 2:17:31.240 --> 2:17:33.280 will be read to as kia they went out in 2:17:33.280 --> 2:17:34.440 a patrol and never came back. 2:17:34.760 --> 2:17:36.760 But yeah, I guess the other dynamic is that, like 2:17:37.080 --> 2:17:41.560 you need to align motivation and opportunity for defection desertion, 2:17:42.280 --> 2:17:45.040 and the motivation is there in a lot of cases, 2:17:45.080 --> 2:17:49.760 but opportunity is not. You know. The resistance is committing 2:17:49.840 --> 2:17:53.360 some resources to this these efforts, but it's really limited 2:17:53.440 --> 2:17:56.840 given the scale of the challenge. Yeah, there's a lot 2:17:56.840 --> 2:17:59.000 of factors that need to kind of come together, like 2:17:59.040 --> 2:18:02.640 the ability to see communicate with resistance, the ability to 2:18:02.760 --> 2:18:05.959 move into resistance, all the areas of the perception that 2:18:06.000 --> 2:18:10.360 we were accepted and not phase retribution, the perception that 2:18:10.480 --> 2:18:13.680 living conditions are acceptable to them. You know, So there's 2:18:13.720 --> 2:18:18.040 all these conditions and given the costs of defection desertion 2:18:18.120 --> 2:18:22.039 which could be like major attribution against your family, and 2:18:22.360 --> 2:18:25.240 deep uncertainty about leaving this institution that is kind of 2:18:25.280 --> 2:18:27.840 a state within a state. That's why we're not seeing 2:18:27.840 --> 2:18:32.160 the kind of large scale, commander level defection desertion I think. 2:18:32.560 --> 2:18:32.760 Right. 2:18:33.200 --> 2:18:35.160 So, one last thing I wanted to talk about before 2:18:35.160 --> 2:18:38.480 we finish up. If people, I guess keep tabs on 2:18:38.520 --> 2:18:42.520 the conflict, they would have seen recently a video. I'm 2:18:42.520 --> 2:18:45.160 sure you've seen the Kachin Independence Army shooting down in 2:18:45.200 --> 2:18:49.720 aircraft with an FN six Chinese man portaal air defense system. 2:18:49.720 --> 2:18:52.720 It's what they sort of called manpads. I'm sure women 2:18:52.800 --> 2:18:55.360 can carry them to just fine or anyone else for 2:18:55.400 --> 2:18:57.400 that matter. But I think it happened in January and 2:18:57.400 --> 2:18:59.840 the video has just come out. Can you explain this 2:18:59.840 --> 2:19:03.120 to nificance of that within the conflict landscape? And we 2:19:03.200 --> 2:19:04.520 am A yeah. 2:19:04.520 --> 2:19:05.560 I guess there's a couple of points. 2:19:05.760 --> 2:19:08.400 One is about China's posture and the other is about 2:19:08.520 --> 2:19:13.520 the military balance. I think the Minomour military's air power 2:19:13.680 --> 2:19:17.560 is its primary comparative advantage. I think at this point 2:19:17.640 --> 2:19:21.879 it has fewer blight infagery forces than the resistance, but 2:19:22.040 --> 2:19:22.640 that it's. 2:19:22.480 --> 2:19:26.640 Heavy artillery and especially it's air power. You know, that's 2:19:26.680 --> 2:19:28.200 how it terrorizes the population. 2:19:28.400 --> 2:19:31.280 Yeah, but it's also been a source of it's been 2:19:31.280 --> 2:19:34.760 a very powerful mobilizing force. I mean, I think after 2:19:35.120 --> 2:19:39.200 Phase one of ten twenty seven, the MMDAA Ko Kong 2:19:39.440 --> 2:19:42.640 armed group essentially it took back territory that it proceeds 2:19:42.640 --> 2:19:44.880 to be their own and took the town of lau Kai, 2:19:44.920 --> 2:19:46.880 which was really surprising. 2:19:46.400 --> 2:19:47.920 But a major advance. 2:19:47.920 --> 2:19:50.280 And then everyone kind of perceived, Okay, they'll just stay 2:19:50.360 --> 2:19:53.039 in the quote Unquoteqo Kong areas, They'll stay where they are. 2:19:53.240 --> 2:19:55.439 But I think there's a deep perception. 2:19:55.800 --> 2:19:59.640 Among the MDAA but also broader ethnic minority groups that 2:20:00.040 --> 2:20:02.760 as long as the mr military is in power and 2:20:02.920 --> 2:20:07.160 has air capability, it will terrorize the public. 2:20:07.240 --> 2:20:08.720 Even if it cannot reach or. 2:20:08.640 --> 2:20:11.960 Ever take back Laukai, it will vomit. And that's exactly 2:20:12.000 --> 2:20:14.520 what we saw after ten twenty seven. You saw air 2:20:14.520 --> 2:20:17.800 strikes and Laukai, you saw air strikes and lights of the. 2:20:17.600 --> 2:20:19.360 Headquarters of the Kachin Independence Army. 2:20:19.640 --> 2:20:21.879 You see air strikes in parts of her kind state 2:20:21.920 --> 2:20:24.400 that the mem R military has no chance of recapturing. 2:20:24.560 --> 2:20:26.800 You know, it's a terrorizing the public thing. 2:20:26.920 --> 2:20:28.280 Yeah, it's a punitive thing. 2:20:28.520 --> 2:20:31.840 Yeah, it's punitive thing. So and it also is powerfully motivating. 2:20:31.879 --> 2:20:35.280 It's like, Okay, now you see the MNDA pushing all 2:20:35.320 --> 2:20:37.120 the way to Lascio, and a lot of people didn't 2:20:37.120 --> 2:20:38.959 think they would do that. But it's like, if you 2:20:39.040 --> 2:20:42.480 have a perception that this MR Military can hurt me 2:20:43.040 --> 2:20:46.480 from a distance, they may need to eliminate them altogether 2:20:46.560 --> 2:20:48.800 in order to achieve the level of stability and safety 2:20:48.840 --> 2:20:51.520 that they pursue. So like it's the double edged sword 2:20:51.560 --> 2:20:53.640 in that regard. But going back to your question, I 2:20:53.640 --> 2:20:58.320 mean think like if the resistance is capable of constraining 2:20:58.400 --> 2:21:02.920 the MR military's air capable, it radically changes the balance 2:21:02.959 --> 2:21:06.600 of power. I mean, I think there are some elements 2:21:06.600 --> 2:21:09.240 of this that are been a primary focus of some 2:21:09.320 --> 2:21:13.959 of the international human rights community, for example, constraining access 2:21:14.000 --> 2:21:16.080 to jet fuel and these sorts of things, trying to 2:21:16.080 --> 2:21:18.720 push for an arms embargo, none of which I've succeeded, 2:21:19.120 --> 2:21:22.560 but there's been kind of progress on the margins. Although 2:21:22.560 --> 2:21:26.640 I think we just saw Russia delivered jet fuel and 2:21:26.840 --> 2:21:29.720 the maritime routes in southern Mars. 2:21:29.800 --> 2:21:33.560 So yeah, in exchange for the artillery shows that the 2:21:33.640 --> 2:21:34.920 Mamma has sent to Russia. 2:21:35.000 --> 2:21:38.640 Right, Oh, okay, realize, Okay, yeah, So I mean they're continued, 2:21:38.640 --> 2:21:40.520 they're able to sustain that, and you know, and the 2:21:40.600 --> 2:21:43.600 Chinese has sold i think six aircrafts last year, so 2:21:44.040 --> 2:21:46.800 they still have this fighting capability, and they're still able 2:21:46.840 --> 2:21:52.200 to extract foreign exchange essentially by stealing from exporters. But 2:21:52.240 --> 2:21:55.680 that's a whole different conversation. But anyway, like I think, yeah, 2:21:55.720 --> 2:21:58.520 this is a key dynamic if they're able to affect 2:21:58.720 --> 2:22:01.400 their their air power. The other thing is that like 2:22:02.160 --> 2:22:05.280 China is attempted to play both sides. I mean historically 2:22:05.280 --> 2:22:08.000 that's sort of their approach. I mean, they have deep 2:22:08.080 --> 2:22:13.080 connections with armed organizations along its border, maybe closer even 2:22:13.120 --> 2:22:16.080 than that with the Memware military, but they also provide 2:22:16.200 --> 2:22:19.840 political legitimacy and material assistance to the Menware military. They 2:22:19.959 --> 2:22:24.240 just actually signed an MU on law enforcement and security 2:22:24.320 --> 2:22:26.920 or some sort with the military. That's a deep and 2:22:26.920 --> 2:22:31.720 abiding relationship, in part because the Chinese don't see an alternative. 2:22:31.720 --> 2:22:34.080 I mean, I don't think they have much trust for 2:22:34.520 --> 2:22:35.320 dan U G or. 2:22:35.320 --> 2:22:38.959 Other resistance groups, and despite the fact that they don't, 2:22:39.240 --> 2:22:41.600 they also don't really trust the memorare military or perceive 2:22:41.680 --> 2:22:43.920 them to be competent. They see them kind of as 2:22:43.959 --> 2:22:47.800 their only potential partner in IPIDOT. But it's kind of 2:22:47.840 --> 2:22:50.440 a question as to whether this strategy is still working 2:22:50.480 --> 2:22:53.120 for them. I think we've seen lots of acts of 2:22:53.240 --> 2:22:57.440 defiance from both sides, the mean or military and resistance 2:22:57.480 --> 2:22:58.760 groups visa be China. 2:22:58.879 --> 2:23:00.560 I mean, they are military. 2:23:00.600 --> 2:23:03.920 They've been pressuring them to hold elections for since the coup, 2:23:04.000 --> 2:23:08.279 essentially yea, and they're really no closer yeah to that happening. 2:23:08.720 --> 2:23:12.000 I mean, I think they dissolve the NLD, something the 2:23:12.080 --> 2:23:15.240 Chinese said not to do. And more recently, they've designated 2:23:15.320 --> 2:23:18.920 a number of resistance groups as terrorist organizations, which essentially 2:23:19.640 --> 2:23:23.880 obviates political negotiations, which I think would certainly frustrate the Chinese, 2:23:23.920 --> 2:23:28.560 given that they hope to achieve stability through political ingratiations 2:23:28.600 --> 2:23:31.879 between a subset of resistance groups and then aneral military. 2:23:32.160 --> 2:23:34.440 So there are these kind of acts of defiance also 2:23:34.520 --> 2:23:37.680 on the resistance side. I mean, the Chinese are pushing 2:23:37.680 --> 2:23:41.160 for ceasefires, and yet the resistance continues to push into 2:23:41.200 --> 2:23:43.720 the country, and they're sort of a perception that like, 2:23:44.440 --> 2:23:48.560 as the resistance groups aligned with China quote. 2:23:48.360 --> 2:23:50.800 Unquote aligned with China, maybe they aren't. 2:23:51.040 --> 2:23:55.000 A gain ascendency on the battlefield in particular, then China's 2:23:55.000 --> 2:23:55.879 influenced gains. 2:23:56.000 --> 2:23:57.560 But I'm not sure whether that's the case. 2:23:57.600 --> 2:23:59.960 It might actually be in verse, like, as these groups 2:24:00.480 --> 2:24:04.000 push to Memmre and have more charge oryal control, maybe 2:24:04.040 --> 2:24:06.960 they have more options and they're less dependent on the Chinese. 2:24:07.000 --> 2:24:10.480 So that relationship in the north along the Chinese border 2:24:10.520 --> 2:24:12.440 is also very much in flux. 2:24:12.480 --> 2:24:14.480 I don't think it's clear exactly how that will play out. 2:24:14.840 --> 2:24:16.560 Yeah, no, it's not, And I think that's sort of 2:24:16.600 --> 2:24:19.320 a big question that's overhanging. Obviously, you have actives that 2:24:19.360 --> 2:24:21.840 are more close your line with China, like the United 2:24:21.879 --> 2:24:26.520 worst Date Army, who have sort of largely remained aloof 2:24:26.600 --> 2:24:28.880 from the conflict or a loof maybe it's her own word, 2:24:28.920 --> 2:24:33.160 but are not like directly committing most of their forces 2:24:33.160 --> 2:24:35.080 to the Conflict's pretty a better way of saying it, right. 2:24:35.120 --> 2:24:35.680 Yeah, I think so. 2:24:35.800 --> 2:24:37.440 And now that there's a ton of pressure on them 2:24:37.480 --> 2:24:40.920 to stop selling arms to other groups, so we'll see 2:24:40.959 --> 2:24:42.320 whether that happens. 2:24:42.600 --> 2:24:46.000 Yeah, which is probably where the Kaschin Independence Army was 2:24:46.040 --> 2:24:48.879 able to get the surface where missiles from, which brings 2:24:48.920 --> 2:24:53.640 us back to that. Yeah, it's it's never not complicated, 2:24:53.720 --> 2:24:56.240 but it's always very sad that, like the folks quit 2:24:56.280 --> 2:25:00.080 in the middle of this are suffering horrendously and sometimes 2:25:00.600 --> 2:25:03.240 suffering kind of out of sight and out of mind 2:25:03.320 --> 2:25:06.160 for so many people. As you know, a news cycle 2:25:06.160 --> 2:25:10.080 continues to kind of either trivialize or completely ignore what's 2:25:10.080 --> 2:25:14.360 happening in Memma, which is pretty sad. People often ask me, 2:25:14.440 --> 2:25:17.120 like where they can find reliable news sources and where 2:25:17.160 --> 2:25:19.400 they can send their money if they want to help 2:25:19.440 --> 2:25:21.760 people in Mema. Do you have any good suggestions for that? 2:25:22.440 --> 2:25:22.680 Sure? 2:25:22.760 --> 2:25:25.160 Yeah, I mean I think for news, I guess for 2:25:25.240 --> 2:25:27.760 like day to day news like Fronter Memr is a 2:25:27.800 --> 2:25:32.400 fantastic source, as is meanmore Now and the Airwadi. These 2:25:32.440 --> 2:25:36.240 are they have English language content that would be really 2:25:36.520 --> 2:25:40.600 interesting and accessible. My organization US Institute Piece. You can 2:25:40.680 --> 2:25:43.560 check out our website. We publish a lot of analytical 2:25:43.560 --> 2:25:46.240 work on there related to the conflict. You're welcome to 2:25:46.320 --> 2:25:48.879 check there. I think there's a really good another podcast, 2:25:48.879 --> 2:25:52.080 it's really good Insight MEMR that is worth checking out. 2:25:52.120 --> 2:25:56.400 Started as like a Buddhism oriented podcast talking about in Pasana. 2:25:56.480 --> 2:26:00.000 Now its branched into a much broader range of issues. 2:26:00.560 --> 2:26:02.279 Some of the best stuff I've. 2:26:02.040 --> 2:26:05.120 Heard and actually affiliated with inside mem R is an 2:26:05.160 --> 2:26:09.080 organization called Better Burma that provides entering assistance. 2:26:08.640 --> 2:26:10.320 And one you could contribute to. 2:26:10.760 --> 2:26:14.120 There's an organization called Skills for Humanity that provides a 2:26:14.160 --> 2:26:15.960 lot of humanitarian assistance on the ground. 2:26:16.280 --> 2:26:18.119 Yeah, and you mentioned. 2:26:17.959 --> 2:26:21.199 Liberate the MMR before we started recording. That can also 2:26:21.240 --> 2:26:22.720 be a good support. 2:26:22.879 --> 2:26:23.080 Yeah. 2:26:23.160 --> 2:26:26.680 Yeah, I think Skills to Humanity also accept maybe they 2:26:26.720 --> 2:26:29.080 accept direct I was speaking to them about like medical 2:26:29.120 --> 2:26:33.080 equipment that they needed. Yeah, they they accept direct donations 2:26:33.160 --> 2:26:36.320 or not. But people who want to volunteer medically let's 2:26:36.360 --> 2:26:39.199 want to look out for Yeah, that was fantastic. 2:26:39.280 --> 2:26:39.560 Billy. 2:26:39.680 --> 2:26:42.200 Is there any way anythink else you'd like to plug? 2:26:42.240 --> 2:26:45.760 Like why people can follow you or us i P online. 2:26:45.440 --> 2:26:48.400 Us i P dot org. Most of my writing is 2:26:48.400 --> 2:26:52.120 on there. I'm on Twitter, Twitter at b I L 2:26:52.280 --> 2:26:56.520 L E E, the number four, the letter D. But yeah, 2:26:56.560 --> 2:27:00.400 I mean I checked those sources I mentioned. It's there's 2:27:00.400 --> 2:27:03.520 not more kind of content in the mainstream media, but 2:27:03.520 --> 2:27:06.400 there's there's a lot of really incredible reporting coming from 2:27:06.440 --> 2:27:10.720 the ground, from people taking incredible risks to share information. 2:27:10.879 --> 2:27:13.880 So encourage you to support some of those local outlets. 2:27:14.280 --> 2:27:17.760 Yeah, definitely, including financially if you can. It's like doing 2:27:17.800 --> 2:27:20.920 the work that really needs to be done. Thank you 2:27:20.920 --> 2:27:23.360 so much for your time than we appreciate you being 2:27:23.360 --> 2:27:23.760 a host. 2:27:23.920 --> 2:27:49.640 Jeez, welcome to It could happen here a podcast that 2:27:49.920 --> 2:27:53.320 is reported. But I'm very tired. But you know who's 2:27:53.360 --> 2:27:56.440 not tired? Garrison Davis, our host for today. 2:27:56.600 --> 2:27:58.680 No, I'm probably more tired than you. 2:27:58.800 --> 2:28:00.760 I was up to I don't know about that. 2:28:01.040 --> 2:28:04.160 No, I was up till nine am. Eest writing desks. 2:28:04.200 --> 2:28:06.800 Oh geez. Yeah, I went to bed by like five 2:28:06.879 --> 2:28:07.359 or six. 2:28:07.200 --> 2:28:09.440 I except for three hours. I'm going right back to 2:28:09.520 --> 2:28:10.240 bed after this. 2:28:10.640 --> 2:28:13.760 Excellent as is the grind, you know, riseing grind, that's 2:28:13.760 --> 2:28:14.199 my motto. 2:28:14.640 --> 2:28:21.879 Yeah, I'm going to do the same things. All right, Well, Garrison, 2:28:22.000 --> 2:28:24.280 what are we What are we talking about today? What's 2:28:24.320 --> 2:28:26.920 our episode about? What's this sewed on? 2:28:27.320 --> 2:28:29.680 So it's it's been a while since we've done like 2:28:29.840 --> 2:28:33.600 an update on what meme politics are up to. I 2:28:33.640 --> 2:28:36.480 think that the last deep dive we did was, like 2:28:37.320 --> 2:28:41.000 I wouldn't say, like a year ago when Ron DeSantis, 2:28:41.080 --> 2:28:42.440 then presidential. 2:28:41.959 --> 2:28:44.720 Hopeful meatball Rod Garrison, meatball rock me. 2:28:44.800 --> 2:28:46.480 Sorry, sorry, my polity is putting. 2:28:46.560 --> 2:28:51.200 Ron just embraced the fast wave like meme asthetic for 2:28:51.360 --> 2:28:55.800 his then failing and dying campaign. And that was kind 2:28:55.840 --> 2:28:57.760 of the last that we did one of these big 2:28:57.800 --> 2:29:00.760 deep dives into like how meme politics currently operate. 2:29:01.200 --> 2:29:02.400 And it's been a long year. 2:29:02.600 --> 2:29:05.119 It's felt in some ways much longer than a year 2:29:05.879 --> 2:29:11.080 since then, and the meme landscape has changed significantly, And 2:29:11.520 --> 2:29:13.480 that's kind of what I want to discuss today. Just 2:29:13.560 --> 2:29:16.800 go over the current state of meme politics in September 2:29:16.959 --> 2:29:17.920 twenty twenty two. 2:29:18.600 --> 2:29:23.800 Great, it's like the State of the Union, but slightly dumber. 2:29:24.000 --> 2:29:28.080 But for us, yeah, just for all, for the completely 2:29:28.120 --> 2:29:31.599 brain rods, yeah space of online politics, people. 2:29:31.280 --> 2:29:34.800 Who have destroyed their minds by spending too much time 2:29:34.879 --> 2:29:35.440 on the internet. 2:29:35.600 --> 2:29:40.040 Yes, exactly so now that most of these like jokes 2:29:40.040 --> 2:29:42.680 and references will be talking about are actually really old 2:29:42.720 --> 2:29:46.080 and not actually relevant anymore and are no longer trending. 2:29:46.600 --> 2:29:50.240 Now we can talk about how they worked, if they worked, 2:29:50.440 --> 2:29:52.600 and what they can tell us about the changing landscape 2:29:52.600 --> 2:29:54.360 of meme politics in the Year of Our Lord twenty 2:29:54.360 --> 2:29:57.720 twenty four and beyond. So let's start by going all 2:29:57.760 --> 2:30:00.720 the way back to July fifteenth, which was just a 2:30:00.760 --> 2:30:01.480 lifetime ago. 2:30:01.959 --> 2:30:04.320 Yeah, that was a thousand years ago. Yes, this was. 2:30:04.400 --> 2:30:07.160 This was the first day of the RNC. Vance Is 2:30:07.200 --> 2:30:10.520 announced as Trump's running mate. This was before Biden dropped 2:30:10.520 --> 2:30:13.440 out of the race, but when we were pretty sure 2:30:13.440 --> 2:30:16.400 that he was probably going to hopefully. 2:30:16.160 --> 2:30:18.240 That's interesting that you were pretty shit because I I 2:30:18.800 --> 2:30:21.240 kind of thought he was going to like make us 2:30:21.640 --> 2:30:24.360 like fucking hoist his corpse back into the white asse. 2:30:24.480 --> 2:30:26.560 I mean, we got a really good indication about five 2:30:26.600 --> 2:30:29.760 days later that his dropout was like imminent. Yeah, yeah, 2:30:29.760 --> 2:30:31.960 you're right, and it happened. It happened less than a 2:30:32.000 --> 2:30:35.119 week later, So it was it was really on the line. 2:30:35.560 --> 2:30:37.120 But anyway, it was. It was a it was a 2:30:37.200 --> 2:30:40.480 very different world, very different time. Meanwhile, on the first 2:30:40.520 --> 2:30:42.600 day of the RNC, after vance Is announced as the 2:30:42.640 --> 2:30:49.360 Republican VP candidate, the Twitter user Rick Rud's Calves posted 2:30:49.959 --> 2:30:53.879 this tweet quote, I can't say for sure, but he 2:30:54.040 --> 2:30:57.040 might be the first VP pick to have admitted in 2:30:57.080 --> 2:30:59.959 a New York Times bestseller to fucking and insight out 2:31:00.040 --> 2:31:04.240 Latex Glove shoved in between two couch cushions Vance Hillbilly Elogy, 2:31:04.400 --> 2:31:08.520 pages one seventy nine to one eighty one. So this 2:31:08.600 --> 2:31:11.039 is this is the start of the couch meme. Sure 2:31:11.160 --> 2:31:13.120 the next few days, the memes spread online with the 2:31:13.160 --> 2:31:16.040 help of liberals who were unable to detect the fictitious 2:31:16.120 --> 2:31:20.160 nature of the claim. Now, unronic spread is crucial to 2:31:20.200 --> 2:31:23.600 the success of mimetic attacks like this, and the couch 2:31:23.640 --> 2:31:27.120 fucking claims gained such widespread prominence on Twitter that on 2:31:27.240 --> 2:31:30.280 July twenty fifth, the AP decided to do an official 2:31:30.480 --> 2:31:34.600 fact check of the claim, running the headline no, JD. 2:31:34.720 --> 2:31:38.360 Vans did not have sex with a couch. Now this 2:31:38.440 --> 2:31:41.640 had two problems. By platforming this story in the AP, 2:31:42.120 --> 2:31:46.080 the image of JD's couch coitus was propelled outside the 2:31:46.080 --> 2:31:49.600 confines of overly online and Twitter shit posters into the 2:31:49.640 --> 2:31:53.039 popular discourse. Now the topic was welcome on news shows, 2:31:53.120 --> 2:31:58.120 talk shows, and other respectable publications. The other problem is 2:31:58.160 --> 2:32:02.360 that you can't defit say JD Vance has never had 2:32:02.400 --> 2:32:03.360 sex with a couch. 2:32:03.600 --> 2:32:06.200 No, no, I say I would never say that. You 2:32:06.320 --> 2:32:07.680 can say it's untrue. 2:32:07.760 --> 2:32:10.480 He wrote about sofa sex in his memoir, right, but 2:32:10.520 --> 2:32:12.800 not that he's one hundred percent never made love to 2:32:12.879 --> 2:32:13.520 a love seat. 2:32:13.680 --> 2:32:15.680 Yeah, so making matters worse. 2:32:15.840 --> 2:32:20.280 Hours later, the AP removed their fact check, leaving a 2:32:20.320 --> 2:32:23.280 web page that just read quote, this story did not 2:32:23.360 --> 2:32:26.359 go through our standard editing processes and has been removed. 2:32:26.840 --> 2:32:29.360 I gotta know, I do desperately want to know what 2:32:29.640 --> 2:32:31.960 actually happened in the background there. 2:32:36.160 --> 2:32:40.480 It's it's quite funny. It's it's quite a big fuck up. Now. 2:32:40.959 --> 2:32:45.960 This led people to reasonably conclude that if the fact 2:32:46.080 --> 2:32:48.600 check was taken down, that really only leads us to 2:32:48.600 --> 2:32:50.760 believe one thing is that this is a true claim, 2:32:51.000 --> 2:32:53.560 which at this point many people knew that it's not. 2:32:54.320 --> 2:32:57.560 I think interestingly, jd Vance has refused to comment on 2:32:57.600 --> 2:33:01.920 this claim, which is probably smart, but his continued refusal 2:33:01.959 --> 2:33:04.640 to even deny the claim adds a bit to the 2:33:04.760 --> 2:33:09.680 humorous nature. So the retraction of this fact check became 2:33:09.760 --> 2:33:12.039 a news story itself and gave a whole new life 2:33:12.040 --> 2:33:14.360 to a meme that had kind of been reaching the 2:33:14.480 --> 2:33:18.200 end of its cycle. People created doctored pages of Vance's 2:33:18.200 --> 2:33:21.320 book Hill Billy Elegy, where he reflected on tales of 2:33:21.360 --> 2:33:24.600 his youth in Ohio, where it was commonplace for young 2:33:24.640 --> 2:33:27.840 boys rejected by girls to turn to couch cushions for 2:33:27.920 --> 2:33:31.800 sexual pleasure. The fake pages were framed as a limited 2:33:31.879 --> 2:33:34.480 first edition of the book before per Teal found it 2:33:34.520 --> 2:33:37.560 and revised the book for a secondary, wide released copy 2:33:38.120 --> 2:33:41.800 the next week. The meme continued to proliferate, having completely 2:33:41.959 --> 2:33:44.120 broken out of the Twitter ship posting bubble it was 2:33:44.120 --> 2:33:47.160 birthed in, but the peak of the meme was still 2:33:47.240 --> 2:33:51.160 to come. On August sixth, Kamala Harris announced Minnesota Governor 2:33:51.200 --> 2:33:53.600 Tim Walls as her running mate, and the two appeared 2:33:53.600 --> 2:33:57.680 together at a rally in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. During Walls's first speech, 2:33:57.760 --> 2:34:00.560 he made a very safe kind of dead Oak style 2:34:00.640 --> 2:34:05.680 reference to his vice presidential opponent's viral sticky sofa situation. 2:34:06.080 --> 2:34:08.720 Like all regular people I grew up with in the Heartland, 2:34:08.800 --> 2:34:13.480 JD studied at Yale, had his career funded by Silicon 2:34:13.560 --> 2:34:18.000 Valley billionaires, and then wrote a best seller trashing that community. 2:34:18.200 --> 2:34:23.520 Come on, that's not what Middle America is. And I 2:34:23.560 --> 2:34:26.440 gotta tell you I can't wait to debate the guy, 2:34:30.840 --> 2:34:33.160 that is, if he's willing to get off the couch 2:34:33.200 --> 2:34:38.000 and show up, you'll see what. 2:34:38.000 --> 2:34:38.720 I did there. 2:34:40.760 --> 2:34:46.000 So, due to the references kind of like explicit sexual context, 2:34:46.040 --> 2:34:48.520 this was a bit of an unexpected move. 2:34:48.720 --> 2:34:49.840 Yeah, you could say that. 2:34:50.080 --> 2:34:53.880 But for those already familiar with the meme, the bit 2:34:53.959 --> 2:34:57.280 served as a humorous yet tame in joke, and for 2:34:57.360 --> 2:35:01.039 those unfamiliar, the huge crowd reactions and prompted others to 2:35:01.160 --> 2:35:05.520 inquire about the context for the whole jd vance couch thing, 2:35:06.040 --> 2:35:09.600 once again boosting its popularity as a trend. Now, I 2:35:09.640 --> 2:35:12.880 think this was a bit of a gamble from Walls definitely, 2:35:13.000 --> 2:35:17.000 as acknowledging a viral meme often leads to its impending death, 2:35:17.240 --> 2:35:20.039 where recognition and participation of viral trends from the mainstream 2:35:20.120 --> 2:35:23.200 establishment signal that something is no longer cool and is 2:35:23.240 --> 2:35:27.240 now instead cringe Now. Part of the long lasting presence 2:35:27.280 --> 2:35:30.520 of the coconut tree meme is the Harris campaign's wise 2:35:30.680 --> 2:35:34.960 unwillingness to make continuing coconut tree references or capitalize on 2:35:35.040 --> 2:35:38.440 its imagery. The White House going all in on Dark 2:35:38.480 --> 2:35:41.840 Brandon using the imagery for merch and Biden increasingly making 2:35:41.879 --> 2:35:43.240 references to the meme and interviews and. 2:35:43.240 --> 2:35:45.959 Speeches, Oh, I've just killed a dead nuked. 2:35:45.640 --> 2:35:48.920 It exactly ultimately led to this meme's death long before 2:35:48.920 --> 2:35:52.039 the death of the Biden campaign itself. But this could 2:35:52.080 --> 2:35:56.039 be like a delicate balance. Before Biden made a dark 2:35:56.080 --> 2:35:59.320 Brandon one of the early chrostic images associated with his 2:35:59.400 --> 2:36:02.480 twenty twenty five for re election campaign, the first few 2:36:02.640 --> 2:36:05.720 dark branded references from the White House actually increased the 2:36:05.760 --> 2:36:08.600 memes spread, and I think this is where Walls's joke 2:36:08.720 --> 2:36:11.800 was able to succeed. The couch reference was vague enough 2:36:12.080 --> 2:36:16.000 and disconnected from the more explicit aspects of the meme, 2:36:16.400 --> 2:36:19.920 and paired with Walls's goofy facial expressions and his kind 2:36:19.920 --> 2:36:22.640 of dad joke refrain of see what I did there, 2:36:23.480 --> 2:36:26.240 it made what could have been a cringe and or 2:36:26.520 --> 2:36:31.320 crude moment into a charismatic and endearing one. I think 2:36:31.320 --> 2:36:34.720 the other thing that makes me lean towards Walls's invocation 2:36:34.879 --> 2:36:38.400 of the couch helping more than herting, is that the 2:36:38.440 --> 2:36:41.680 meme had already begun to be legitimized by the establishment 2:36:42.040 --> 2:36:44.000 when it's the subject of an article in every major 2:36:44.000 --> 2:36:47.360 publication and Stephen Colbert is making couch jokes on TV, 2:36:47.800 --> 2:36:50.720 then it is already broken containment and hit the mainstream. 2:36:51.080 --> 2:36:51.320 Yeah. 2:36:51.520 --> 2:36:54.560 I would also add, I think there's a degree to which, 2:36:54.640 --> 2:36:58.600 like the dark Brandon stuff was cringey so fast, because 2:36:58.600 --> 2:37:02.200 it was very clearly the Biden campaign jumping on to 2:37:02.240 --> 2:37:07.039 a meme that Biden himself certainly didn't understand absolutely not, 2:37:07.640 --> 2:37:09.640 Whereas I think Walls got a little bit of the 2:37:09.760 --> 2:37:12.880 kind of energy Trump used to get in part because 2:37:12.920 --> 2:37:15.480 it was it was like such a I can't believe 2:37:15.520 --> 2:37:18.879 this is happening in American politics. The VP candidate for 2:37:18.920 --> 2:37:22.800 the DIMS just accused the Republican VP candidate having sex 2:37:22.840 --> 2:37:25.800 with the couch like it was such a wow. This 2:37:25.920 --> 2:37:28.280 is like the breaking of a seal kind of moment 2:37:28.320 --> 2:37:31.480 which normally the Republicans have kind of had to themselves 2:37:31.520 --> 2:37:34.760 these like yes, line crossing moments, And I think that 2:37:35.040 --> 2:37:37.040 does get attention and energy. 2:37:37.720 --> 2:37:38.039 To you. 2:37:38.200 --> 2:37:40.120 It was interesting to see them do it and have 2:37:40.200 --> 2:37:41.160 it actually work. 2:37:41.560 --> 2:37:43.199 Yeah, well, we'll talk about that a little bit later. 2:37:43.280 --> 2:37:47.560 How this sort of tactic has been almost entirely monopolized 2:37:47.600 --> 2:37:49.920 by the right to the past decade and just now 2:37:50.000 --> 2:37:53.000 we're starting to see someone that's change. I think Tim 2:37:53.040 --> 2:37:57.320 Wall's making a single Couched reference I believe did very 2:37:57.360 --> 2:38:00.400 little to hurt the inevitable trajectory of the JD Vance 2:38:00.520 --> 2:38:03.600 Couch meme. In the days after the speech, searches for 2:38:03.760 --> 2:38:07.720 JD Vance Couch reached an all time high, and as 2:38:07.760 --> 2:38:10.600 is the nature for peaks, was followed by a gradual 2:38:10.640 --> 2:38:13.959 fall off during the month of August. But crucially, the 2:38:14.080 --> 2:38:17.240 spirit of the meme never really fully went away. I 2:38:17.240 --> 2:38:20.039 think one aspect that separates the couch meme from Dark 2:38:20.080 --> 2:38:22.800 Branded and even Coconut Tree to some degree is that 2:38:23.000 --> 2:38:25.840 it's not based on trying to prop up a political 2:38:25.840 --> 2:38:31.240 figure like Positively, but is instead attacking a widely disliked 2:38:31.280 --> 2:38:35.760 figure with slanderous disinformation. And though the couch meme is 2:38:35.800 --> 2:38:38.240 well past its peak, there's been no shortage of ways 2:38:38.280 --> 2:38:39.160 to make fun of JD. 2:38:39.360 --> 2:38:39.720 Vance. 2:38:40.240 --> 2:38:44.320 The overall momentum against him specifically has continued on utilizing 2:38:44.360 --> 2:38:47.560 memes with a true, untrue, and semi true basis, whether 2:38:47.600 --> 2:38:51.040 that be his inability to order donuts or his legitimately 2:38:51.080 --> 2:38:55.039 possible interest in dolphin sex as evidenced by his Twitter searches. 2:38:56.879 --> 2:38:59.160 Do you know who also likes dolphin sex. 2:38:59.280 --> 2:38:59.640 Robert. 2:39:01.000 --> 2:39:04.720 I mean, I could be convinced, but I guess let's 2:39:04.760 --> 2:39:06.039 check out these ads anyway. 2:39:16.520 --> 2:39:17.920 All right, we are so back. 2:39:19.000 --> 2:39:23.040 So the right did not take kindly to Walls's acknowledgment 2:39:23.120 --> 2:39:25.000 of the whole sofa spectacle. 2:39:25.080 --> 2:39:28.400 We were so pissed. They were really pissed. And it's funny. 2:39:28.440 --> 2:39:30.640 It's like as if their main guy has not spent 2:39:30.720 --> 2:39:33.640 the last ten years making up wild and spewing all 2:39:33.720 --> 2:39:36.000 sorts of like offensive lies about his opponents. 2:39:36.200 --> 2:39:36.400 Yeah. 2:39:36.480 --> 2:39:39.520 Yeah, that's why they're pissed. Yeah, we're supposed to be 2:39:39.560 --> 2:39:40.360 the ones doing this. 2:39:41.560 --> 2:39:46.120 So in response, the online right's finest posters cooked up 2:39:46.120 --> 2:39:50.160 a memetic counter attack against Tim Walls. And what they 2:39:50.240 --> 2:39:53.200 decided on is that Tim Walls once had to get 2:39:53.240 --> 2:39:57.240 his stomach pumped from drinking a gallon of horse seamen 2:39:58.600 --> 2:40:01.400 with this meme originating from a fake screenshot of an 2:40:01.440 --> 2:40:05.360 AP fact check posted by the Twitter account National Conservatism. 2:40:06.080 --> 2:40:11.160 See, uh, I'm sure you're going to get into it. 2:40:11.200 --> 2:40:13.840 But there's so many reasons why this was always destined 2:40:13.959 --> 2:40:14.560 not to work. 2:40:14.760 --> 2:40:15.080 Yeah. 2:40:15.120 --> 2:40:19.039 Absolutely, Almost immediately this was seen as like a massive misfire. 2:40:19.200 --> 2:40:21.600 Yeah yeah, it made it immediately clear, Oh, you guys 2:40:21.600 --> 2:40:24.560 don't understand why what you used to do, like what 2:40:24.600 --> 2:40:27.040 you were doing was working. Yeah, like you never actually 2:40:27.160 --> 2:40:30.920 understood the principles behind what you were playing around with. 2:40:31.200 --> 2:40:34.640 And I think crucially, most of the attacks from these 2:40:34.680 --> 2:40:37.280 like weird online figures never actually caught that much traction. 2:40:37.360 --> 2:40:39.360 The only ones that succeeded were ones that were just 2:40:39.520 --> 2:40:42.360 pairting stuff that Trump was talking about, because I think 2:40:42.360 --> 2:40:44.960 Trump actually understands this line of attack much better than 2:40:44.959 --> 2:40:47.560 most of these like right wing posters do. But yeah, 2:40:47.600 --> 2:40:50.280 it was very clear that this was a failure. Some 2:40:50.320 --> 2:40:54.400 of the first horse Seamen posts got immediately ratioed by 2:40:54.440 --> 2:40:58.120 replies and quote tweets, deeming the meme a manufactured and 2:40:58.240 --> 2:41:01.400 desperate attempt to respond to the natural growth of the 2:41:01.440 --> 2:41:04.760 couch hooks from a random Twitter shit post to the 2:41:04.760 --> 2:41:07.879 Democratic vice presidential candidate's opening speech with. 2:41:07.840 --> 2:41:11.120 A guy like Walls, you don't go with horse com 2:41:11.520 --> 2:41:14.120 you do something like you you start spreading a rumor 2:41:14.440 --> 2:41:17.160 that like he uh cooked a bunch of well done 2:41:17.160 --> 2:41:19.840 t bone steaks at a barbecue or totally like that, 2:41:19.959 --> 2:41:22.480 totally like something that really hits to the center of 2:41:22.520 --> 2:41:25.360 his dad core thing it has. It has to line 2:41:25.440 --> 2:41:28.520 up with his vibe right right, right, and his vibe 2:41:28.600 --> 2:41:31.560 is like you know that nice Midwestern dad who's a 2:41:31.600 --> 2:41:33.360 dog shit cook, right like. 2:41:33.560 --> 2:41:36.000 Yeah, which is some thing that Walls has actually been 2:41:36.000 --> 2:41:38.640 able to like utilize himself with his like white guy 2:41:38.680 --> 2:41:39.959 tacos and stuff right like. 2:41:39.959 --> 2:41:42.640 Right right exactly. He's leaded into it very smartly. 2:41:42.680 --> 2:41:44.680 He lead into it, and then it becomes a strength 2:41:44.760 --> 2:41:47.760 that then the right also gets upset about accusing him 2:41:47.760 --> 2:41:49.640 of quote unquote anti white racism. 2:41:50.600 --> 2:41:53.440 That was quite a moment for American political history. 2:41:55.120 --> 2:41:57.280 The other thing with like this horse semen thing is 2:41:57.320 --> 2:42:01.039 like you simply just can't force these things to happen. 2:42:01.120 --> 2:42:03.480 Like a crucial part of the success of a political 2:42:03.520 --> 2:42:05.320 meme like this is that it must have a degree 2:42:05.600 --> 2:42:09.360 of unirnic spread by people who genuinely believe it to 2:42:09.440 --> 2:42:12.200 be true. Now, the horse semen meme was also intended 2:42:12.240 --> 2:42:15.720 to counter the Republican or weird talking point that picked 2:42:15.760 --> 2:42:19.400 up steam this summer, and for some reason, they chose 2:42:19.440 --> 2:42:22.640 to go about this by making an escalatory and just 2:42:22.720 --> 2:42:27.640 grossly bizarre claim about Tim Wall's guzzling animal semen. Masterful 2:42:27.640 --> 2:42:30.760 gambitzer not a weird thing to say at all. No, 2:42:31.760 --> 2:42:35.480 in doing this, the right displayed a fundamental misunderstanding of 2:42:35.520 --> 2:42:39.480 why the Jdvan's couch story was successful. The reason why 2:42:39.520 --> 2:42:42.600 it caught on despite the easily verifiable fact that Jadvance 2:42:42.600 --> 2:42:44.520 did not write about pleasuring himself with a couch as 2:42:44.520 --> 2:42:47.480 a teenager, is that Jadvance seems like the kind of 2:42:47.520 --> 2:42:49.840 guy to have used a couch to masturbate as a 2:42:49.840 --> 2:42:51.359 teenager in rural Ohio. 2:42:51.640 --> 2:42:53.920 Yeah, you know that adolescence was awkward as. 2:42:53.879 --> 2:42:57.000 Shit, absolutely, Like it wasn't successful just because it was 2:42:57.040 --> 2:43:00.240 like a weird sex story. It evoked a genuine and 2:43:00.240 --> 2:43:02.680 feeling of something a sort of like white trash young 2:43:02.720 --> 2:43:06.680 guy might do. On the other hand, swallowing a gallon 2:43:06.720 --> 2:43:09.320 of horse seamen, it's such an outlandish jump into fantasy 2:43:09.360 --> 2:43:10.720 by comparison. 2:43:10.240 --> 2:43:14.440 Yeah, nobody has done that, right. Well, well, Tim Walls 2:43:14.520 --> 2:43:17.840 is no mister hands. The vibes simply do not match. 2:43:18.280 --> 2:43:21.760 And to be clear, Garre said, mister Hans wasn't swallowing it. 2:43:21.840 --> 2:43:22.880 That was part of the problem. 2:43:23.200 --> 2:43:27.640 That is true, And like, meanwhile, Vance has the exact 2:43:27.760 --> 2:43:30.959 vibe of like a gross little teen gremlin who fucked 2:43:30.959 --> 2:43:33.720 it inside out. Rubber gloves shoved between two couch cushions. 2:43:34.760 --> 2:43:37.680 So the horse even meme failed to reach outside the 2:43:37.720 --> 2:43:42.120 confines of niche right wing Twitter, but conservatives had another 2:43:42.240 --> 2:43:46.640 meme up their sleeve. Chronically online far right influencers Cat 2:43:46.720 --> 2:43:49.520 Turre a CHAIAI Check aka Lips of TikTok and Ian 2:43:49.560 --> 2:43:52.840 Miles Chung led the charge in branding Tim Walls as 2:43:53.240 --> 2:43:57.240 tampon Tim in reference to a bill Walls assigned requiring 2:43:57.280 --> 2:44:01.320 menstrual products be provided in schools. Oh the horror, The 2:44:01.360 --> 2:44:04.680 Babylon b wrote JD. Vans is weird. It says guy 2:44:04.680 --> 2:44:08.920 who signed bill to put tampons in boys' school bathroom unquote. 2:44:09.440 --> 2:44:13.360 So similar to the horse thing, this attempt to frame 2:44:13.560 --> 2:44:16.400 Tim Walls is weird just didn't work that the meme 2:44:16.440 --> 2:44:19.520 never caught on beyond its initial posts. I think part 2:44:19.560 --> 2:44:22.959 of the reason why the overly online right is so 2:44:23.120 --> 2:44:26.359 focused on painting Walls is weird is not just revenge 2:44:26.440 --> 2:44:29.680 for the couch joke, but because Tim Walls is often 2:44:29.720 --> 2:44:34.040 credited with popularizing the quote Republicans are just plain weird 2:44:34.400 --> 2:44:38.040 line of attack, something that's really caught on this past summer. Now, 2:44:38.080 --> 2:44:40.600 the oldest clip I can find of Tim Walls positing. 2:44:40.640 --> 2:44:44.039 This message comes from December of twenty twenty three. I'll 2:44:44.080 --> 2:44:45.080 include that clip here. 2:44:45.200 --> 2:44:47.840 And you said, basically, there's no such thing as a 2:44:47.840 --> 2:44:48.879 generic Republican. 2:44:49.160 --> 2:44:50.440 These guys are weird. 2:44:50.879 --> 2:44:53.840 Once they start running, their weirdness shows up. 2:44:54.720 --> 2:44:56.080 What do you mean, well, you have weird? 2:44:56.240 --> 2:44:56.879 Stand by that? 2:44:58.240 --> 2:45:01.920 Well, well, look just the strange things they become obsessed with, 2:45:02.000 --> 2:45:06.039 demonizing our children, becoming obsessed with people's personal lives in 2:45:06.080 --> 2:45:09.440 their bedrooms, restricting freedoms. I'm surrounded by states who are 2:45:09.440 --> 2:45:12.160 spending their time figuring out how to ban Charlotte's Web 2:45:12.400 --> 2:45:15.120 in their schools. Why we're banishing hunger from ours with 2:45:15.160 --> 2:45:18.160 free breakfast and launch. That's what the public's looking for, 2:45:18.280 --> 2:45:20.280 That's what they're trying to get to. And they will 2:45:20.320 --> 2:45:24.600 weirdly obsess with everything to be mean and cruel and 2:45:24.760 --> 2:45:28.000 small in their ideas. And I didn't hear anything last 2:45:28.080 --> 2:45:30.640 night that did anything different to that, so I'll stand 2:45:30.680 --> 2:45:33.120 by that. I just think Americans know this is just 2:45:33.200 --> 2:45:34.640 weird stuff to be focused on. 2:45:34.920 --> 2:45:38.360 Now we on nickod happen here and behind the Bastards 2:45:38.400 --> 2:45:41.240 have similarly been advocating for this type of framing for 2:45:41.280 --> 2:45:44.880 the New Right for quite a long while, Like Robert, 2:45:44.920 --> 2:45:47.200 I know you've been like really pushing for this as 2:45:47.240 --> 2:45:49.040 a tactic for years now. 2:45:49.600 --> 2:45:49.920 Yeah. 2:45:50.040 --> 2:45:52.840 Yeah, if they'd made me the vice presidential candidate three 2:45:52.879 --> 2:45:55.240 years ago, I really could have made some progress on this, 2:45:55.480 --> 2:45:57.520 but had to see what they've got up. 2:45:57.800 --> 2:46:00.320 Like, we decided on the name from Alli's new show, 2:46:00.720 --> 2:46:03.520 like very early this year, Like this was way way 2:46:03.560 --> 2:46:06.080 before like the Weird Attacks went viral. 2:46:06.320 --> 2:46:09.400 It's really the only name we ever considered was weird 2:46:09.440 --> 2:46:10.080 Little Guys. 2:46:10.160 --> 2:46:13.359 Yeah, because that's how we like internally refer to these freaks. 2:46:13.400 --> 2:46:18.200 Because these are all unhinged, anti social freaks, and many 2:46:18.280 --> 2:46:22.040 of them revel in being this antagonistic force. I think 2:46:22.080 --> 2:46:25.400 part of their self image is the idea that liberals 2:46:25.480 --> 2:46:30.039 find them dangerous, and the Weird Attack is very disempowering 2:46:30.120 --> 2:46:33.440 for these people. It reframes them from this like scary 2:46:33.520 --> 2:46:37.200 existential threat to being more akin to your just off putting, 2:46:37.360 --> 2:46:40.720 creepy uncle. Here's a clip of Wals himself kind of 2:46:40.760 --> 2:46:43.080 explaining the methodology behind this attack. 2:46:43.400 --> 2:46:46.600 You've gotten some attention this week for calling Trump Advance 2:46:46.680 --> 2:46:50.840 and Republicans in general weird, and I think that You're 2:46:50.879 --> 2:46:54.000 the one that set this tone, and there's this shift. 2:46:54.480 --> 2:46:57.320 The Harris campaign seems to be following your lead, echoing 2:46:57.320 --> 2:47:00.800 this language. Why do you think weird a more effective 2:47:00.840 --> 2:47:03.959 attack line against Trump and what Democrats have been done previously, 2:47:03.959 --> 2:47:07.480 which is argue that he's an existential threat to democracy. 2:47:09.120 --> 2:47:11.880 Yeah, and it's an observation on this, and you know, 2:47:11.959 --> 2:47:13.720 being a school teacher, I see a lot of things. 2:47:13.760 --> 2:47:17.119 But my point on this was is people kept talking about, look, 2:47:17.160 --> 2:47:19.400 Donald Trump is going to put women's lives at risk. 2:47:19.400 --> 2:47:22.320 That's one hundred percent true. Donald Trump is potentially going 2:47:22.320 --> 2:47:26.160 to end constitutional liberties that we have, end voting. I 2:47:26.240 --> 2:47:28.640 do believe all those things are a real possibility, but 2:47:28.680 --> 2:47:30.199 it gives him way too much power. 2:47:30.640 --> 2:47:31.440 Listen to the guy. 2:47:31.480 --> 2:47:35.200 He's talking about Hannibal Lecter and shocking sharks and just 2:47:35.480 --> 2:47:38.440 whatever crazy thing pops into his mind. And I thought, 2:47:38.480 --> 2:47:40.320 we just give him way too much credit. And I 2:47:40.320 --> 2:47:42.320 think one of the things is is when you just 2:47:42.440 --> 2:47:45.960 ratchet down some of the you know, the scariness or whatever, 2:47:46.160 --> 2:47:48.560 and just name it what it is. I got to 2:47:48.560 --> 2:47:50.760 tell you my observation on this is, have you ever 2:47:50.760 --> 2:47:51.680 seen the guy laugh? 2:47:52.440 --> 2:47:53.560 That seems very weird? 2:47:53.600 --> 2:47:55.840 To me that an adult can go through six and 2:47:55.840 --> 2:47:57.760 a half years of being in the public eye if 2:47:57.800 --> 2:48:00.240 he has left it's at someone, not with someone. That 2:48:00.640 --> 2:48:03.520 is weird behavior. And I don't think you call it 2:48:03.560 --> 2:48:06.199 anything else. It is simply what we're observing. 2:48:06.320 --> 2:48:06.520 Now. 2:48:06.560 --> 2:48:09.000 An interesting side effect of the weird framing is that 2:48:09.040 --> 2:48:13.880 it's left these ultra conservatives utterly incapable of effectively combating 2:48:13.879 --> 2:48:16.680 this line of attack. They've been so used to being 2:48:16.720 --> 2:48:19.480 on the offense that they never really prepared for the 2:48:19.520 --> 2:48:22.039 position that they're now stuck in. Over a decade of 2:48:22.280 --> 2:48:24.879 they go low, we go high, conditioned the rights to 2:48:24.920 --> 2:48:28.640 be completely unable to cope with being put on mimetic defense. 2:48:29.600 --> 2:48:29.840 Now. 2:48:30.600 --> 2:48:34.320 My favorite retort of the weird claim is from conservative 2:48:34.320 --> 2:48:38.840 pundent Helen Andrew, who wrote, quote, calling people weird is 2:48:38.879 --> 2:48:44.920 such feminine behavior. Textbook sex difference. Men engage in open conflict, 2:48:45.240 --> 2:48:50.320 women police conformity. It's honestly disorienting to hear male politicians 2:48:50.440 --> 2:48:51.320 use the line. 2:48:51.720 --> 2:48:54.119 I love too that we're talking about how men are 2:48:54.520 --> 2:48:58.040 naturally drawn to open, honorable conflict when talking about a 2:48:58.080 --> 2:49:01.560 bunch of people who never log off, like everything you. 2:49:01.640 --> 2:49:03.800 Do is find the keyboard motherfucker. 2:49:03.920 --> 2:49:07.640 It's amazing that they're combating this by saying the weirdest 2:49:07.640 --> 2:49:08.560 things imaginable. 2:49:08.680 --> 2:49:09.040 Yeah. 2:49:09.120 --> 2:49:12.640 Now, I think this one's only one uped by a 2:49:12.720 --> 2:49:16.000 reply to this very post by the author of the 2:49:16.080 --> 2:49:22.840 self published Kingmaker trilogy named Airy Mendelssohn Christ who posted 2:49:22.879 --> 2:49:26.480 a meme featuring a crowd of NPC wojacks all saying 2:49:26.480 --> 2:49:28.880 the word weird, which which I find actually be a 2:49:28.959 --> 2:49:32.680 very powerful image depicting all the masses having agreed upon 2:49:33.080 --> 2:49:36.920 that Republicans are weird. But Mendelssohn wrote quote, it's both 2:49:36.959 --> 2:49:41.520 feminine behavior and heard behavior. They all started calling them 2:49:41.640 --> 2:49:45.959 weird at once. It was obviously planned, cooked up by 2:49:46.000 --> 2:49:50.040 a sophisticated wordsmith, and then distributed by their network. 2:49:51.280 --> 2:49:56.200 Yes, only the most sophisticated of wordsmiths knows the word weird. 2:49:56.600 --> 2:49:57.439 It's amazing. 2:49:57.760 --> 2:50:00.360 You've got to dig deep into the dictionary to hit 2:50:00.400 --> 2:50:00.800 that one. 2:50:00.959 --> 2:50:03.720 Truly, truly, truly, this must be the work of a 2:50:03.760 --> 2:50:05.400 sophisticated word smith. 2:50:07.200 --> 2:50:10.200 It's it's phenomenal, that's fucking funny. 2:50:11.240 --> 2:50:15.280 So in trying to combat the weird accusation, the right 2:50:15.320 --> 2:50:18.360 has mostly opted for either responding with escalation, like in 2:50:18.400 --> 2:50:21.119 the case of the horse seamen meme, which only makes 2:50:21.160 --> 2:50:24.039 them seem kind of more off putting, or just going 2:50:24.040 --> 2:50:27.920 for the classic Uno reverso right, I'm not weird, you're weird. 2:50:28.400 --> 2:50:31.320 This is the ultimate sign of desperation and impending defeat. 2:50:31.400 --> 2:50:33.800 I am rubber, you are glue. Whatever you say bounces 2:50:33.800 --> 2:50:36.160 off me and sticks to you. On top of being 2:50:36.160 --> 2:50:40.000 a strategy that often signals one has already lost. By 2:50:40.040 --> 2:50:43.520 employing this tactic, you make the very basic error of 2:50:43.640 --> 2:50:47.480 repeating the enemy's claim against you, thus continuing to amplify 2:50:47.560 --> 2:50:49.040 and spread the original attack. 2:50:49.520 --> 2:50:50.720 Here's a clip from Trump. 2:50:51.640 --> 2:50:54.800 There's something weird with that guy. He's a weird guy. 2:50:55.440 --> 2:50:59.080 JD is not weird. He's a solid rock. I happen 2:50:59.160 --> 2:51:02.199 to be a very solid rock. We're not weird. We're 2:51:02.240 --> 2:51:05.760 other things, perhaps, but we're not weird. But he is 2:51:05.840 --> 2:51:08.560 a weird guy. He walks on the stage. Is something 2:51:08.600 --> 2:51:12.200 wrong with that guy? And he called me weird? And 2:51:12.200 --> 2:51:14.360 then the frank news media picks it up. That was 2:51:14.360 --> 2:51:16.480 the word of the day, weird, weird, weird. They're all 2:51:16.520 --> 2:51:17.320 go on now. 2:51:17.320 --> 2:51:21.720 Similarly, I found a Megan Kelly video titled Tucker Carlson 2:51:21.800 --> 2:51:24.600 explains why JD Vance is actually normal? 2:51:27.080 --> 2:51:31.840 Great should Tucker notes the most normal man alive. 2:51:32.640 --> 2:51:35.640 And Trump supporters have brought signs to his rallies that 2:51:35.680 --> 2:51:39.360 read Donald Trump is not weird. My I Am not 2:51:39.440 --> 2:51:41.880 weird shirt has people asking a lot of questions are 2:51:41.800 --> 2:51:45.360 already answered by my shirt. It's it's a very a 2:51:45.480 --> 2:51:48.879 very basic mistake. Now, there has been some pushback among 2:51:48.959 --> 2:51:51.960 certain swasp people on the left who have historically associated 2:51:52.000 --> 2:51:55.200 themselves as like societal outcasts and have found comfort in 2:51:55.280 --> 2:51:58.840 embracing words like weird and freak, and on a certain level, 2:51:58.840 --> 2:52:01.120 I understand this, but I think this point of view 2:52:01.240 --> 2:52:03.640 is making the same fundamental error as the conservative right 2:52:03.879 --> 2:52:07.240 when they try to flip around the weird accusation onto Democrats, progressives, 2:52:07.240 --> 2:52:10.880 and people on the left by primarily using homophobia and transphobia. 2:52:11.240 --> 2:52:14.560 We're using the same word to refer to two very 2:52:14.600 --> 2:52:19.959 different things. Do they call drag Queen's weird for being transgressive? Meanwhile, Trump, 2:52:20.000 --> 2:52:22.600 Advance and the far right are weird because they are 2:52:23.160 --> 2:52:27.120 oddly reactionary. They're trying to resurrect a long dead world 2:52:27.400 --> 2:52:30.640 by forming an authoritary movement behind a reality TV star 2:52:30.879 --> 2:52:34.880 who sounds like you're rambling conspiracy theorist uncle. It's a 2:52:35.000 --> 2:52:38.360 battle over the terrain of normalcy as a shifting category. 2:52:38.680 --> 2:52:42.000 And while I sympathize with some hostility to the hegemony 2:52:42.000 --> 2:52:45.400 of normalcy, how I often follow outside that category. I 2:52:45.400 --> 2:52:48.440 believe it's also paramount that we sabotage reactionary efforts to 2:52:48.520 --> 2:52:52.080 gain any territory. So that's kind of the cycle of 2:52:52.200 --> 2:52:55.480 weird And we will be back to talk about this 2:52:55.560 --> 2:53:09.440 kind of final new stage of meme politics after this break. Okay, 2:53:09.480 --> 2:53:12.879 we are once again, so back now. I believe this 2:53:12.920 --> 2:53:16.360 election will truly be characterized by the complete perliferation of 2:53:16.480 --> 2:53:19.840 meme style politics. Now, even without like the use of 2:53:20.360 --> 2:53:23.879 a meme image, I think politics, especially this year, has 2:53:23.920 --> 2:53:26.680 itself functioned and spread like a meme. 2:53:27.080 --> 2:53:27.240 Now. 2:53:27.360 --> 2:53:29.440 This is something that's been happening for the past like 2:53:29.480 --> 2:53:33.040 eight years, certainly, but the way it's happened this summer, 2:53:33.120 --> 2:53:35.800 I think has been slightly unique. The Weird attack is, 2:53:35.879 --> 2:53:38.800 you know, the ideal example of this. But even if 2:53:38.840 --> 2:53:40.959 you just look back a few months ago, we were 2:53:40.959 --> 2:53:44.119 in a very different position. It was a very different story, 2:53:44.400 --> 2:53:47.000 and I'll let Stephen Colbert demonstrate that. 2:53:47.280 --> 2:53:49.560 So the Biden campaign wants to build on the new 2:53:49.640 --> 2:53:53.760 viral trend of handground Pa the phone because reportedly they're 2:53:53.840 --> 2:53:54.360 looking for. 2:53:54.440 --> 2:53:56.439 A meme page manager. 2:53:57.680 --> 2:54:00.879 So look forward to some hot new Biden's social content 2:54:01.040 --> 2:54:07.440 like Irmagird, Trumper's hurdler I can't has youth votes, and 2:54:07.560 --> 2:54:12.599 of course for the very online skibbitty Biden Biden. 2:54:13.760 --> 2:54:16.880 Gwity Biden t dog. 2:54:19.920 --> 2:54:23.840 Okay, I I really want to play more of that cliff, 2:54:24.200 --> 2:54:26.960 but I'm afraid I already included a little too much. 2:54:28.520 --> 2:54:30.560 What a dire situation that is? 2:54:30.920 --> 2:54:34.199 That is that that is the peak of the liberals, 2:54:34.560 --> 2:54:41.360 mimetic attacks, just truly episcopal. Oh my god, I've become 2:54:41.480 --> 2:54:45.080 obsessed with skibbitty Biden just because it demonstrates such like 2:54:45.160 --> 2:54:48.800 an inevitable like self defeat that that was like the 2:54:48.840 --> 2:54:52.280 best thing these people had, like cooking. As it's kind 2:54:52.280 --> 2:54:55.000 of obvious by the clip. This led towards the death 2:54:55.040 --> 2:54:57.680 of the Biden campaign. They really had nothing in the tank. 2:54:58.040 --> 2:55:01.920 Biden was a shambling old man. And then like two 2:55:01.920 --> 2:55:05.720 months later, Kamala kicked off her campaign by embracing the 2:55:05.879 --> 2:55:08.600 Kamala is Brat Summer, which yes to may have killed 2:55:08.600 --> 2:55:10.920 Bratt Summer but it did help secure the vibe shift, 2:55:11.280 --> 2:55:12.800 skyrocketing her popularity. 2:55:13.040 --> 2:55:15.720 Quite frankly, I was ready for bratt summer today. 2:55:15.879 --> 2:55:20.600 Yes, sure, but I think her weaponization of that term, 2:55:21.120 --> 2:55:24.560 endorsed by Charlie XCX, I think did help skyrocket her 2:55:24.600 --> 2:55:27.960 early popularity and showed an early embrace of online culture. 2:55:28.840 --> 2:55:32.760 And I believe the Harris campaign actually owes a lot 2:55:32.879 --> 2:55:36.600 more to memes. In a ironic twist of fate, there 2:55:36.680 --> 2:55:39.760 is a compelling argument to be made that Kamala Harris's 2:55:39.840 --> 2:55:42.440 rise to the top of the presidential ticket can at 2:55:42.520 --> 2:55:47.320 least be in part tracked back to Republican attacks which 2:55:47.440 --> 2:55:51.720 spawned memes. Last year. The account RNC Research, ran by 2:55:51.760 --> 2:55:55.640 the GOP posted multiple clips and edits attacking Kamala Harris 2:55:55.680 --> 2:55:58.880 for what they saw as odd phrases and awkward moments. 2:55:59.480 --> 2:56:02.480 Earlier this year, some of those videos from RNC research 2:56:02.560 --> 2:56:06.120 went viral outside of right wing Twitter, which led to 2:56:06.160 --> 2:56:09.920 an ironic or post ironic embrace of Kamala Harris among 2:56:10.040 --> 2:56:13.600 liberal and leftist posters. Now the biggest one was the 2:56:13.640 --> 2:56:16.640 Coconut Tree video, which spawned memes that started to pick 2:56:16.680 --> 2:56:21.160 up steam in January and didn't peak until July. Another 2:56:21.160 --> 2:56:24.200 one of RNZ Research's videos, a four minute compilation of 2:56:24.400 --> 2:56:28.080 Kamala Harris saying what can be unburdened by what has 2:56:28.120 --> 2:56:31.160 been provided the inspiration for the title of a document 2:56:31.240 --> 2:56:34.960 that spread around political circles postulating Kamala Harris as the 2:56:34.959 --> 2:56:37.080 best successor to Biden if you were to drop out 2:56:37.080 --> 2:56:40.160 of the race instead of a messy last minute primary 2:56:40.280 --> 2:56:43.080 or an open convention. And I think these memes did 2:56:43.120 --> 2:56:46.600 a lot to increase Kamala's favorability in the first half 2:56:46.640 --> 2:56:49.880 of this year. Kamala prior to this was a relatively 2:56:49.959 --> 2:56:52.640 kind of disliked figure nationally. She was one of the 2:56:52.680 --> 2:56:54.879 first drop out of the twenty twenty presidential race. 2:56:55.280 --> 2:56:58.119 Yeah, she wasn't I wouldn't even say disliked as much 2:56:58.200 --> 2:57:02.040 as like not figure like the big The number one 2:57:02.040 --> 2:57:03.920 thing people said about her is that she's been a 2:57:03.920 --> 2:57:05.720 non entity as a vice president. 2:57:06.080 --> 2:57:11.360 Yeah yeah, And she certainly wasn't popular. Yes, definitely not popular. 2:57:11.959 --> 2:57:15.359 So although the GP may have inadvertently helped to improve 2:57:15.440 --> 2:57:18.640 the public profile of Kamala Harris and have failed to 2:57:18.680 --> 2:57:22.840 effectively combat the weird attacks, they have not totally failed 2:57:22.920 --> 2:57:26.240 on the me medic warfare front. The past two months, 2:57:26.280 --> 2:57:29.440 the right has landed on a somewhat effective memes style 2:57:29.520 --> 2:57:33.240 politics by utilizing a combination of disinformation and AI images 2:57:33.320 --> 2:57:36.280 to create fake news stories that rile up their base 2:57:36.320 --> 2:57:40.359 on certain key issues so far, mainly trans people and immigration. 2:57:40.879 --> 2:57:41.039 Now. 2:57:41.080 --> 2:57:43.160 A few months ago I did an episode on how 2:57:43.160 --> 2:57:46.199 the Right's been using memes to create this fake epidemic 2:57:46.520 --> 2:57:50.400 of transgender mass shooters, and then in July, a new 2:57:50.440 --> 2:57:54.640 anti trans syop went super viral. False claims that the 2:57:54.640 --> 2:57:58.720 Algerian Olympic boxer Iman Khleif is transgender or in some 2:57:58.800 --> 2:58:03.520 kind of unverified way quote unquote biologically male spread around 2:58:03.640 --> 2:58:06.680 online with the help of British newspapers and went just 2:58:06.800 --> 2:58:11.400 completely viral for a whole week, with the disinformation subsequently 2:58:11.440 --> 2:58:14.920 becoming a news story itself. This fake story caught traction 2:58:15.000 --> 2:58:17.720 after an Italian boxer quit a match forty five seconds 2:58:17.760 --> 2:58:20.520 into a fight after receiving a single hard blow to 2:58:20.560 --> 2:58:24.640 the face. Anti trans memes are a well worn part 2:58:24.760 --> 2:58:27.560 of this type of disinfo ecosystem, and there was no 2:58:27.720 --> 2:58:31.920 shortage of trans sports memes now using Khalif, I'm going 2:58:31.920 --> 2:58:35.000 to quote from Ruby Hammad in Al Jazeera quote Khalif's 2:58:35.040 --> 2:58:38.840 subsequent match was against Hungarian Anna Hamari, who in the 2:58:38.879 --> 2:58:41.800 lead up posted and deleted an image that I believe 2:58:42.000 --> 2:58:44.960 to be among the most significant of the entire affair 2:58:45.280 --> 2:58:48.240 because of how it lays the subtext bear. In this 2:58:48.400 --> 2:58:52.680 AI generated image that Hamari sourced from Instagram, Khalif was 2:58:52.680 --> 2:58:55.840 not merely represented as a man towering over a dainty, 2:58:55.959 --> 2:58:59.400 vulnerable white woman, but was denied humanity altogether and drawn 2:58:59.440 --> 2:59:03.840 as a super natural, mythical beast unquote. Many other AI 2:59:03.920 --> 2:59:08.400 images of Khalif spread throughout this viral trend, some with 2:59:08.800 --> 2:59:11.480 just Khalif having like a stereotypical like male body that 2:59:11.520 --> 2:59:14.520 were AA generated, and others with this like similar like 2:59:14.520 --> 2:59:18.879 like kind of like monster ish look. And I think 2:59:19.200 --> 2:59:22.039 beyond the actual use of these like AI memes and 2:59:22.200 --> 2:59:24.840 kind of anti trans memes using Khalif, I think the 2:59:24.840 --> 2:59:28.160 way the actual story spread was like a meme. I 2:59:28.200 --> 2:59:30.760 think that's how I was able to gain such like 2:59:30.800 --> 2:59:33.119 a viral traction in just like a few days. 2:59:33.760 --> 2:59:34.040 I think. 2:59:34.120 --> 2:59:37.280 The next version of this is the Eating Cat's story, 2:59:37.400 --> 2:59:40.760 which started with a post to a Springfield crime watch 2:59:40.879 --> 2:59:43.600 Facebook group from someone who shared a fourth hand account 2:59:43.879 --> 2:59:45.959 based on a rumor from a neighbor who claims to 2:59:45.959 --> 2:59:47.640 have heard the story from a friend who heard the 2:59:47.680 --> 2:59:51.680 story from an unnamed source. Now NewsGuard attracted down the 2:59:51.720 --> 2:59:54.480 woman who told the Facebook poster about the story, and 2:59:54.520 --> 2:59:57.000 she told them, quote, I'm not sure I'm the most 2:59:57.040 --> 2:59:59.440 credible source because I don't actually know the person who 2:59:59.480 --> 3:00:00.240 lost the cat. 3:00:00.440 --> 3:00:02.039 I don't have any proof. 3:00:03.120 --> 3:00:07.440 In Springfield, they're eating the dogs the people that came in, 3:00:07.680 --> 3:00:12.640 they're eating the cats, they're eating they're eating the pets of. 3:00:12.640 --> 3:00:14.520 The people that live there. 3:00:14.959 --> 3:00:17.879 I just want to clarify here. You bring up Springfield, Ohio, 3:00:18.160 --> 3:00:20.680 and ABC News did reach out to the city manager there. 3:00:20.840 --> 3:00:23.280 He told us there had been no credible reports of 3:00:23.320 --> 3:00:26.320 specific claims of pets being harmed, injured, or abused by 3:00:26.400 --> 3:00:28.680 individuals within the immigrant community. 3:00:28.720 --> 3:00:29.840 All I'll seeing people on Tellivien. 3:00:29.920 --> 3:00:32.000 Let me just say this is the people on television 3:00:32.040 --> 3:00:35.200 say my dog was taken and used for food. So 3:00:35.600 --> 3:00:37.600 maybe he said that, and maybe that's a good thing 3:00:37.640 --> 3:00:38.920 to say for a city manager. 3:00:38.959 --> 3:00:41.520 I'm not taking this from television people on television to say. 3:00:41.400 --> 3:00:44.760 Man dog was eaten by the people that went there. 3:00:44.959 --> 3:00:47.680 Meanwhile, the Ohio Division of Wildlife told TMZ that the 3:00:47.720 --> 3:00:51.760 main photo of an alleged Haitian immigrant carrying a debt goose, 3:00:51.800 --> 3:00:55.480 presumably on the way to eat it, was in fact 3:00:55.560 --> 3:01:00.119 a random black man removing roadkill from a street in Columbus, Ohio, 3:01:00.560 --> 3:01:03.560 with no evidence to suggest he is from Haiti, he 3:01:03.640 --> 3:01:07.320 is an immigrant, or was intending to eat said goose. 3:01:08.320 --> 3:01:12.080 Still jd Vance particularly spent a lot of work boosting 3:01:12.120 --> 3:01:13.160 this fake news story. 3:01:13.360 --> 3:01:16.119 Also, if he was, what's wrong with eating a goose? 3:01:16.400 --> 3:01:19.560 Yes, exactly, Like there's there's so many, so many problems 3:01:19.600 --> 3:01:24.840 with the Haitians are eating at pets and wildlife meme, 3:01:24.959 --> 3:01:27.039 and we don't we don't have time to like fully 3:01:27.080 --> 3:01:29.160 get into it. It's just kind of one anecdote in 3:01:29.200 --> 3:01:32.720 this kind of series of mimetic attacks. And I think 3:01:32.800 --> 3:01:36.400 one of the guys who was spearheading this was jd Vance, 3:01:36.400 --> 3:01:38.960 who spent a lot of effort trying to push the 3:01:39.000 --> 3:01:42.200 story into the national spotlight, either the day of or 3:01:42.240 --> 3:01:45.720 before the postential debate of Vans tweeted quote. In the 3:01:45.800 --> 3:01:49.040 last several weeks, my office has received many inquiries from 3:01:49.120 --> 3:01:52.480 actual residents of Springfield who have said their neighbor's pets 3:01:52.560 --> 3:01:57.240 or local wildlife were abducted by Haitian migrants. It's possible, 3:01:57.640 --> 3:02:01.000 of course, that all these rumors will turn out to 3:02:01.080 --> 3:02:04.760 be false. Do you know what's confirmed that a child 3:02:04.840 --> 3:02:07.320 was murdered by a Haitian migrant who had no right 3:02:07.360 --> 3:02:09.960 to be here unquote, And now I think the last 3:02:09.959 --> 3:02:13.560 thing that he's referring to was an unfortunate car accident, 3:02:14.000 --> 3:02:17.720 and the Haitian man was a legal immigrant, not an 3:02:17.760 --> 3:02:21.120 illegal immigrant. And the father of the child who died 3:02:21.200 --> 3:02:24.760 has been advocating that people stop using his child's death 3:02:24.800 --> 3:02:29.280 as this like racist ammunition in this weird culture war debate. 3:02:29.520 --> 3:02:31.199 God, it's bleak, which is. 3:02:31.200 --> 3:02:34.480 Really hard to see of man pleading that these like 3:02:34.720 --> 3:02:38.280 unhinged racists stop using the death of his son. Yeah, 3:02:38.320 --> 3:02:42.760 to further like they're just extremely gross and like transparent agenda. 3:02:43.120 --> 3:02:46.359 Yeah, it's one of the more disgusting things that's happened. 3:02:46.840 --> 3:02:49.520 Part of the spread of the eating a pets story 3:02:49.760 --> 3:02:53.279 has been the use of AI images, particularly of black 3:02:53.320 --> 3:02:56.840 men kidnapping and eating pets, as well as images of 3:02:56.920 --> 3:03:00.320 Trump rescuing cats from what I would describe as a 3:03:00.480 --> 3:03:02.800 horde of immigrants, which is what I would assume the 3:03:02.840 --> 3:03:07.120 AA prompt would be. Now, these images aren't necessarily meant 3:03:07.200 --> 3:03:10.800 to be passed off as real, but in the absence 3:03:10.840 --> 3:03:14.680 of actual evidence, they serve an important purpose of providing 3:03:14.720 --> 3:03:18.160 a visual justice stick in people's minds, and I think 3:03:18.200 --> 3:03:20.560 that that's crucially what's going on with all of these 3:03:20.600 --> 3:03:24.240 AI images, whether they be of Trump, like saving cats 3:03:24.320 --> 3:03:27.439 or holding cats, or they just be like very racist 3:03:27.520 --> 3:03:31.240 depictions of like black men trying to like eat or 3:03:31.360 --> 3:03:34.520 kidnap people's pets. Earlier this year at the RNC, I 3:03:34.520 --> 3:03:38.280 know me and Robert went to this panel produced in 3:03:38.320 --> 3:03:41.520 part by Microsoft talking about the use of like AI 3:03:41.520 --> 3:03:45.000 images in politics and how they're advocating to like, yeah, 3:03:45.080 --> 3:03:48.040 not be using AI AI depictions of candidates, which is 3:03:48.040 --> 3:03:51.600 something that Trump has consistently been doing, posting or retruthing 3:03:52.320 --> 3:03:55.959 AI videos of Kamala Harris of people like Taylor Swift 3:03:56.040 --> 3:03:59.440 endorsing him, which then led to Taylor Swift endorsing Kamala Harris, 3:03:59.480 --> 3:04:04.200 which seemingly upset Trump greatly. Now to me, if you 3:04:04.240 --> 3:04:09.160 look at the trans Olympics debacle as well as the 3:04:09.200 --> 3:04:13.280 Springfield incident, it feels like this like endless series of 3:04:13.360 --> 3:04:17.279 new dis info trends is designed so that individual confrontations 3:04:17.640 --> 3:04:20.680 just don't matter that much. Like, yeah, pointing out the 3:04:20.720 --> 3:04:24.320 whole trans Olympics thing is fake just doesn't matter, because 3:04:24.520 --> 3:04:26.680 then they're going to move on to Haitian immigrants or 3:04:26.760 --> 3:04:31.400 killing people's pets. Each individual lie is so flimsy, but 3:04:31.520 --> 3:04:34.280 the constant sequence of them built a structure that has 3:04:34.320 --> 3:04:37.320 a degree of stability for conservatives, And this is a 3:04:37.320 --> 3:04:40.080 project that they've been like working towards for a long 3:04:40.120 --> 3:04:42.560 long time. I know, Robert, we've talked about this. 3:04:42.760 --> 3:04:45.760 Yeah, this, I mean I saw the start of this 3:04:45.840 --> 3:04:48.280 as like a kid, right, like this is kind of 3:04:48.320 --> 3:04:52.520 what what guys like Limbaugh were always doing on sort 3:04:52.560 --> 3:04:54.880 of the ground floor level, you know, you could you 3:04:54.920 --> 3:04:56.720 can look at I think one of the first big 3:04:57.480 --> 3:05:01.240 like cleavage points in our realities was the whole Clinton 3:05:01.360 --> 3:05:03.920 death count thing, which, if you're unaware, is this list 3:05:04.000 --> 3:05:07.560 Conservative started spreading in like nineteen ninety three or four 3:05:08.200 --> 3:05:10.600 of all of the people that Bill and Hillary had 3:05:10.640 --> 3:05:13.200 supposedly had murdered, right, And it was like guys like 3:05:13.280 --> 3:05:16.640 Vince Foster who'd killed himself, who worked for them, and whatnot, 3:05:16.640 --> 3:05:18.840 Like it was all bullshit, but it was kind of 3:05:18.879 --> 3:05:21.680 the start of this, Like, when you get enough of 3:05:21.720 --> 3:05:25.039 these things, it doesn't matter that each of them takes 3:05:25.120 --> 3:05:28.560 seconds to debunk. They form a sort of like I 3:05:28.640 --> 3:05:32.520 a cushion. If you exist within that reality, you can 3:05:32.600 --> 3:05:35.040 kind of slide along without touching the ground. 3:05:34.879 --> 3:05:38.840 And definitely now, yeah, it forms like a mesh like 3:05:38.959 --> 3:05:42.440 net structure that where each individual piece is very weak, 3:05:42.800 --> 3:05:47.199 but together it provides an actually like pretty pretty resilient 3:05:47.360 --> 3:05:50.879 like resting place for these people's alternate version of reality. 3:05:51.560 --> 3:05:52.160 Yeah. 3:05:52.240 --> 3:05:56.520 Now, Vance is kind of somewhat admitted in some ways 3:05:56.760 --> 3:05:59.599 to having manufactured this media. 3:05:59.320 --> 3:06:00.879 Story was interesting to me. 3:06:01.240 --> 3:06:03.880 Yeah, And I'm going to put that clip here, and 3:06:04.040 --> 3:06:06.240 I'm going to include a bit of a longer clip 3:06:06.280 --> 3:06:09.960 than what's usually used in soundbites, just because during this interview, 3:06:10.320 --> 3:06:13.760 just Vance's behavior and his like pauses are very odd. 3:06:13.800 --> 3:06:15.560 So there's gonna be a few seconds of like dead space. 3:06:15.600 --> 3:06:17.560 But that is like in the actual interview. 3:06:17.280 --> 3:06:20.840 American media totally ignored this stuff until Donald Trump and 3:06:20.879 --> 3:06:22.000 I start talking. 3:06:21.680 --> 3:06:22.640 About cat memes. 3:06:22.879 --> 3:06:27.120 If I have to mean create stories so that the 3:06:27.160 --> 3:06:30.280 American media actually pays attention to the suffering of the 3:06:30.280 --> 3:06:31.800 American people, then. 3:06:31.640 --> 3:06:33.560 That's what I'm going to do, Dana, because you just 3:06:33.560 --> 3:06:41.440 said that you're creating a public policy. Sorry, you just 3:06:41.480 --> 3:06:42.840 said that you're creating the story. 3:06:42.959 --> 3:06:43.920 Is that, Dana. 3:06:45.000 --> 3:06:47.439 You just said that this is a story that you created. 3:06:48.000 --> 3:06:50.800 So so then the eating dog are not. 3:06:51.120 --> 3:06:54.279 We are creating we are, Dana. 3:06:54.440 --> 3:06:57.480 It comes from first hand accounts from my constituents. I 3:06:57.520 --> 3:06:59.840 say that we're creating a story, meaning we're creating the 3:07:00.000 --> 3:07:01.520 American media focusing on it. 3:07:01.680 --> 3:07:01.800 Now. 3:07:01.879 --> 3:07:04.959 Vance has subsequently you know, said that no, no, no, 3:07:05.320 --> 3:07:08.560 I'm getting this information from first hand accounts from my constituents. 3:07:08.760 --> 3:07:11.040 When I say that I'm creating stories, I'm creating a 3:07:11.080 --> 3:07:13.760 media story. But it's hard not to see this as 3:07:14.040 --> 3:07:17.040 a little bit of like a tactical slip on his part. 3:07:17.520 --> 3:07:22.120 Right now, this has all created a very odd situation 3:07:22.320 --> 3:07:24.400 for the Republican Party, as we've kind of talked about 3:07:24.400 --> 3:07:27.959 the past few months. Journalists and researcher Jared Holt wrote, quote, 3:07:28.200 --> 3:07:30.720 the Trump campaign seems to be doing the same failed 3:07:30.879 --> 3:07:33.960 dance as the Dessantus one at the moment, pander heavily 3:07:34.000 --> 3:07:37.320 to terminally online weirdos and get mad when the general 3:07:37.360 --> 3:07:39.400 public goes, uh, what the fuck? 3:07:40.000 --> 3:07:42.160 Unquote Yeah, and this is the thing. 3:07:42.320 --> 3:07:45.119 When you have someone on stage talking about eating pets, 3:07:45.520 --> 3:07:48.600 that is a turn off for many normal people because 3:07:48.600 --> 3:07:50.600 they immediately clock this as being. 3:07:50.760 --> 3:07:52.080 Probably complete bullshit. 3:07:52.640 --> 3:07:55.039 Yeah, and we're in a very interesting moment in the 3:07:55.080 --> 3:07:58.920 Republican Party considering the right wings electoral losses in twenty eighteen, 3:07:59.000 --> 3:08:02.320 twenty twenty, twenty twenty two, and possibly going into twenty 3:08:02.360 --> 3:08:06.360 twenty four. This kind of weird culture war grievance, anti 3:08:06.360 --> 3:08:09.400 will strategy just might not be electorally viable when matched 3:08:09.400 --> 3:08:13.720 against a more normal alternative, and I think making matters worse. 3:08:13.840 --> 3:08:16.560 The Trump team and the Republican National Committee have spent 3:08:16.600 --> 3:08:18.520 the past four years handing over a lot of their 3:08:18.600 --> 3:08:22.800 calms and outreach to just certifiable freaks like Laura lumer Ian, 3:08:22.840 --> 3:08:25.640 Miles Chung, and limbs of TikTok, people who are very 3:08:25.640 --> 3:08:29.240 disconnected from what regular people care about, people that are 3:08:29.280 --> 3:08:33.360 only liked by other really online freaks, and. 3:08:33.360 --> 3:08:35.440 People who have no crossover appeal. 3:08:35.520 --> 3:08:35.640 Right. 3:08:35.720 --> 3:08:39.080 Joe Rogan is such a powerful card in their hand 3:08:39.560 --> 3:08:43.200 because he has a lot of normal dude appeal, right, 3:08:43.320 --> 3:08:45.760 and so when he starts parroting a talking point, he 3:08:45.800 --> 3:08:48.560 can actually push it to people Laura Lumer does not 3:08:48.879 --> 3:08:52.480 write like if you show a normal person Laura Lumer, 3:08:52.480 --> 3:08:54.920 they're like, what the fuck is wrong with that lady's face? 3:08:55.959 --> 3:09:00.400 And they're a very double edged sword because although they 3:09:00.400 --> 3:09:03.160 are very off putting and that in some ways can 3:09:03.200 --> 3:09:06.800 like damaged, can damage Trump, they also carry a degree 3:09:06.840 --> 3:09:09.600 of like very real harm. Oh yeah, Whenever all these 3:09:09.600 --> 3:09:12.320 people hop onto a trend, a very consistent thing that 3:09:12.360 --> 3:09:16.000 has followed is bomb threats being called into whatever their 3:09:16.040 --> 3:09:19.720 target is. I love doing that, whether that be hospitals 3:09:19.760 --> 3:09:23.000 providing trans healthcare, abortion clinics, or in this case, just 3:09:23.160 --> 3:09:28.080 schools in Springfield, Ohio, which have now received multiple bomb threats. 3:09:28.600 --> 3:09:30.959 And again, like it is a very double edged sword 3:09:31.000 --> 3:09:34.880 because obviously that's like very real harm being done. And 3:09:35.120 --> 3:09:37.360 you could argue that, you know, that makes the situation 3:09:37.480 --> 3:09:39.600 worse for the Trump campaign, that the fact that their 3:09:39.640 --> 3:09:43.320 attacks that they're spreading are resulting in like bomb threats 3:09:43.320 --> 3:09:46.760 being called into schools, but it also creates a degree 3:09:46.760 --> 3:09:50.160 of actual harm for like kids and many of the 3:09:50.320 --> 3:09:54.040 legal Haitian immigrants in Springfield that are now seeing a 3:09:54.160 --> 3:09:59.560 very unprecedented as of recent wave of like extremely racist attacks. 3:10:00.280 --> 3:10:03.680 There's a good article by Jared Holt in MSNBC that 3:10:03.760 --> 3:10:06.400 kind of goes into this topic specifically that I'll link 3:10:06.440 --> 3:10:10.080 in the sources below. So yeah, that kind of rounds 3:10:10.200 --> 3:10:13.520 up my update on the current state of meme politics, 3:10:13.520 --> 3:10:16.160 all of its various forms that's taken these past few months, 3:10:16.640 --> 3:10:21.039 from couch fucking jokes to bomb threats in Springfield, and 3:10:21.080 --> 3:10:24.520 it's a very dominant form. Like I don't remember memes 3:10:24.560 --> 3:10:26.320 being this front and center at least in the twenty 3:10:26.320 --> 3:10:26.920 twenty election. 3:10:27.600 --> 3:10:31.360 Yeah, and I mean they twenty sixteen they kind of were, 3:10:32.440 --> 3:10:36.240 but it was like a much rougher and ruder attempt. 3:10:36.879 --> 3:10:41.920 There's like so much more buy in by like large organizations. 3:10:41.240 --> 3:10:46.440 And Democrats have finally jumped on board to this. Yes, yes, absolutely. 3:10:46.720 --> 3:10:49.560 They have long rejected this line of attack as an 3:10:49.600 --> 3:10:52.720 illegitimate form of politics, and they are not taking that 3:10:52.760 --> 3:10:53.480 stance anymore. 3:10:54.200 --> 3:10:57.320 Yeah, they picked the gun up off the table, fucking finally. 3:10:57.800 --> 3:11:00.959 Well, that at least doesn't for me. Yeah here, it 3:11:00.959 --> 3:11:04.320 could happen here. I will leave us with one closing 3:11:04.400 --> 3:11:05.680 soundbit from JD. 3:11:05.879 --> 3:11:09.840 Vans something that Governor Walls has called you and Donald Trump, 3:11:09.920 --> 3:11:12.400 and that is weird, sure, and it is taken off 3:11:12.520 --> 3:11:15.000 the New York Times reports. Then when Donald Trump was 3:11:15.040 --> 3:11:19.320 asked about it, he said, not me. They're talking about JD. 3:11:20.920 --> 3:11:21.200 Well. 3:11:21.240 --> 3:11:25.320 Certainly they've levied that charge against me more than anybody else. 3:11:26.280 --> 3:11:26.920 Hey, we'll be. 3:11:26.879 --> 3:11:30.240 Back Monday with more episodes every week from now until 3:11:30.240 --> 3:11:31.400 the heat death of the universe. 3:11:32.160 --> 3:11:34.800 It Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. 3:11:34.840 --> 3:11:37.920 For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 3:11:37.959 --> 3:11:41.560 Coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 3:11:41.640 --> 3:11:43.679 Apple Podcasts, or wherever. 3:11:43.320 --> 3:11:44.680 You listen to podcasts. 3:11:44.920 --> 3:11:46.879 You can now find sources for It Could Happen here, 3:11:46.879 --> 3:11:49.879 listed directly in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.