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Speaker 1: Al Zone Media.

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Speaker 2: Hey everybody, Robert Evans here and I wanted to let

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Speaker 2: you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode

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Speaker 2: of the week that just happened is here in one

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Speaker 2: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to

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Speaker 2: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If

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Speaker 2: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 2: there's going to be nothing new here for you, but

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Speaker 2: you can make your own decisions.

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Speaker 3: It could happen here.

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Speaker 4: It's the podcast where things happen and you do something

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Speaker 4: about it. I'm your host, Via Wong, and we have

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Speaker 4: done you know, okay, over the course of this we

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Speaker 4: have done so many Union episodes that I lost count

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Speaker 4: a year ago, two years ago, I don't even know.

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Speaker 3: I lost count at the dawn of time of how

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Speaker 3: many of these we've done.

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Speaker 4: But something I think some of you probably know this,

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Speaker 4: but a lot of you don't, is that many unions

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Speaker 4: have their own unions for the people who to do

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Speaker 4: staff work, to do sort of a number of other things,

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Speaker 4: and sometimes unions us their own unions, and this unbelievably sucks.

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Speaker 4: And to talk about an instance of this happening that

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Speaker 4: is happening right now, I am talking with Alex Chan,

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Speaker 4: who is an organizer for the UAW, who is I

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Speaker 4: don't know what.

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Speaker 3: Technical term is.

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Speaker 4: I'm going to describe it non legally bindingly as being purged.

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Speaker 3: For doing organizing. But yeah, Alex, welcome to the show.

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Speaker 1: Hi, it's nice to be here. I think being purged

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Speaker 1: is a great way to describe it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, the tentative title for this is the UAW Staff Purge,

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Speaker 4: So it's not great.

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Speaker 3: So why don't we start off.

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Speaker 4: I've given a very very brief sort of description of

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Speaker 4: what a staff union is, but can you talk a

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Speaker 4: bit more broadly about what a staff union is, what

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Speaker 4: it does, and why you all are sort of trying

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Speaker 4: to organize one.

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Speaker 1: Of course, So in terms of staff unions, yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: definitely an interesting phenomenon for people who are less familiar

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Speaker 1: with the labor movement. But when unions have a lot

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Speaker 1: of staff, sometimes those also need a union to make

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Speaker 1: sure that they are treated fairly in the workplace. Coincidentally,

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Speaker 1: this year, there have been a lot of incidents that

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Speaker 1: have shown why staff unions are happening in the first place.

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Speaker 1: And so with my union, we are called UAW Staff United.

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Speaker 1: We are part of Region nine A of the UAW.

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Speaker 1: UAW is split into a lot of geographic regions, and

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Speaker 1: nine A covers New York and New England, including Maine, Massachusetts, Connecticut,

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Speaker 1: New Hampshire, Vermont, not New York State. New York State

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Speaker 1: is covered by Region nine. So we are a bunch

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Speaker 1: of temporary organizers and local staff that are organizing for

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Speaker 1: a lot of things, among them wages, workload, job security, healthcare,

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Speaker 1: and so on so forth, very normal things that you

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Speaker 1: would actually see in a lot of the contracts that

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Speaker 1: we help fight for, in the shops that we work

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Speaker 1: for and organize, and the units that we help support.

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Speaker 1: So UAW Staff United otherwise known as.

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Speaker 3: Yuzu like the fruit. Oh that's fun, No, it's cute, right.

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Speaker 1: We really love the user imagery a lot. We were

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Speaker 1: formed in twenty twenty three, first went public in the spring.

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Speaker 1: I joined the unit in the summer, but I was

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Speaker 1: just kind of peripherally around and organizing with a lot

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Speaker 1: of these folks before they went public in the spring.

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Speaker 1: Got recognized slowly and then slowly came to the bargaining

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Speaker 1: table in August, and so at this point we have

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Speaker 1: been at the bargaining table for over a year and

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Speaker 1: we still do not have a contract. Normally, in most

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Speaker 1: shops that you would see organizing, that would be cause

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Speaker 1: for escalation, and so that is actually part of what

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Speaker 1: we are doing here. After hitting one full year bargaining,

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Speaker 1: we are still very stuck on items such as wages,

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Speaker 1: job security, yep, all the very normal things that we

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Speaker 1: can see in units that we help support and bargain for.

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Speaker 1: And so the situation that we're facing is slightly more

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Speaker 1: complicated because of many other internal things that For example,

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Speaker 1: UAW has another staff union it is called Staff Council,

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Speaker 1: and that covers more regions of UAW rather than nine A.

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Speaker 1: It also includes people who are our direct supervisors. On paper,

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Speaker 1: those people are called lead organizers and they do make

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Speaker 1: low six figures and yes they are our direct supervisors.

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Speaker 1: So they are a managerial union and they are what

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Speaker 1: some people may call a business union, you know, works

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Speaker 1: closely with management to secure a good deal, that kind

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Speaker 1: of thing. It's never really been known to agitate in

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Speaker 1: a contract, and that is partially one reason why UZU

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Speaker 1: was formed, because we knew that some agitation needed to

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Speaker 1: happen in order to secure actually good treatment for people

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Speaker 1: in our position, our position meaning temp and local staff.

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Speaker 1: Now I keep saying temp staff, right, is that the

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Speaker 1: next question?

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Speaker 5: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I am so good, I'm one step ahead.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I want to talk about both a the way

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Speaker 4: your contracts work, and be what the thing you're actually

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Speaker 4: doing is, because I'm not sure, I'm not sure people

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Speaker 4: are one hundred percent familiar with what specifically you do

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Speaker 4: and what a what a sort of like staff you

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Speaker 4: need organizer does and the difference between you and the

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Speaker 4: people that are sort of the organizer layer above you

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Speaker 4: is Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, So that has to go a little bit into

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Speaker 1: how we are hired. And that's why I kept saying

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Speaker 1: temp staff and local staff. Yeah, our unit is formed

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Speaker 1: somewhat on our pay structure, and so temp organizers are

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Speaker 1: hired by the international or the region, and local staff

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Speaker 1: are hired by the locals, which is kind of a

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Speaker 1: sub unit of the regions and how different unions are organized.

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Speaker 1: There could be multiple units in one local, a local

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Speaker 1: may hire a staffer, but that staffer could be subsidized

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Speaker 1: by the international, and that is kind of what our

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Speaker 1: uniformation is like, where funding comes from the international and

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Speaker 1: this layer of people does the most. In New organizing,

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Speaker 1: so supporting new shops that form, new campaigns, that are

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Speaker 1: organizing new unions that are just forming and need to

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Speaker 1: secure an election or a first contract. Some of our

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Speaker 1: colleagues go a little bit further into the stage because

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Speaker 1: of their local staff status where they're supporting contract renewals

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Speaker 1: or bargaining around the second stage. But a lot of

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Speaker 1: these has to do with on the ground, worker to worker,

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Speaker 1: peer to peer organizing, supporting them and many different ways,

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Speaker 1: including data work, including just resources. Think of how the

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Speaker 1: parent union might be supporting a new shop. We are

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Speaker 1: kind of the resources that are supporting the new shop

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Speaker 1: that can help direct institutional knowledge, that can help direct

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Speaker 1: logistical or legal information like how or what is necessary

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Speaker 1: for an election or a petition, that kind of stuff.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, it's a lot of different tasks and that's

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Speaker 1: why for a lot of us, our job description is

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Speaker 1: I'm doing air quotes here a flexible forty.

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Speaker 3: Hour work week, Jess Christ.

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Speaker 1: And of course that usually means a lot more than

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Speaker 1: that when campaigns ramp up, and so you know, there

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Speaker 1: are a lot of different models on how to combat that,

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Speaker 1: but I'll get into that a bit later. So going

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Speaker 1: back to the difference between us and perhaps our direct supervisors.

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Speaker 1: Our direct supervisors may be tasked with monitoring the status

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Speaker 1: of a lot of different campaigns at the same time,

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Speaker 1: and we might be assigned to one or two or

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Speaker 1: three at a time to work very very directly with

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Speaker 1: the organizers and the new workers. Of course, this looks

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Speaker 1: slightly different across different locals or different campaigns can be

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Speaker 1: adjusted depending on the shop's needs. But our supervisors, who

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Speaker 1: are the leads, will be handling a lot of different

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Speaker 1: campaigns at the same time and just like kind of

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Speaker 1: overseeing that progress and giving the okay for the next

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Speaker 1: stage or or whatsoever. So I wanted to go back

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Speaker 1: a little bit to why we are called temp organizers.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, this is nuts. Well, I'm so angry that I

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Speaker 3: forgat about this.

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Speaker 1: So do you know what a temp organizer is?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, this is actually weird. So I have friends who

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Speaker 4: are staff organizers for other unions that it doesn't work

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Speaker 4: like this. So yeah, I'm going to let you explain it,

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Speaker 4: because I.

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Speaker 1: Mean, do let me know about those in another Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but for temp organizers in UAW, this is a holdover

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Speaker 1: from the kind of older model of organizing where theoretically

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Speaker 1: a worker might come off the shop floor for six

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Speaker 1: months nine months to do union work and then go

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Speaker 1: back to the shop floor when that concludes, so that

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Speaker 1: the job would remain open for them. So temporary, like

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Speaker 1: the nature is temporary. Someone is coming off to do

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Speaker 1: union work, and then you know, sometimes it's even part time, right,

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Speaker 1: sometimes it's even part time, and the worker never stops

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Speaker 1: working at their original job. But nowadays the model doesn't

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Speaker 1: look like that anymore, right because, especially in say higher

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Speaker 1: ed shops, people graduate out of their graduate union jobs.

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Speaker 1: People may not have their reappointment if they are an

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Speaker 1: adjunct or contract faculty. And then a lot of our

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Speaker 1: unit members u zoom meaning a lot of our yu

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Speaker 1: zoo members come out of a shop that is UAW

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Speaker 1: whether that means they're legal services or museum workers or

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Speaker 1: higher ed, but it is less common nowadays to have

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Speaker 1: a job to return to. However, the model remains the

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Speaker 1: same in that the temporary organizer job has three month

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Speaker 1: renewals and a three year cap. Every three months our

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Speaker 1: contract is renewed, and if we hit three years on

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Speaker 1: this job, we are no longer hired. Theoretically, you could

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Speaker 1: be hired to another job internally, but there's no pipeline,

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Speaker 1: there is no internal movement that way, you would have

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Speaker 1: to apply to the job like a regular other job

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Speaker 1: that is a more full term job, or you just

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Speaker 1: kind of like quote unquote like age out the system

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Speaker 1: and you're just no longer an organizer. You no longer

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Speaker 1: have a job. And so this has manifested in a

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Speaker 1: lot of different ways that a lot of my colleagues

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Speaker 1: that have gotten tired or burnt out and have decided

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Speaker 1: to leave before they're three years or leave at their

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Speaker 1: three years of their own will. There are folks that

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Speaker 1: have left way earlier than their three years as well

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Speaker 1: to pursue other opportunities. YUZU at any given time has

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Speaker 1: about forty to fifty members and that is our nine

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Speaker 1: a unit. Again, one thing that we have come to

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Speaker 1: find out is that in the last five years of

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Speaker 1: this temp organizer model, only three people who have hit

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Speaker 1: their three year cap have managed to attain full term

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Speaker 1: jobs in the UAW afterward Cheese. And then there is me, who,

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Speaker 1: again within the last five years, is the only person

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Speaker 1: to have been not renewed before their three year term,

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Speaker 1: very unceremoniously as well as in the middle of very

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Speaker 1: active campaigns. That brings us to another piece of context,

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Speaker 1: and the reason why I keep saying five years is

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Speaker 1: because in twenty eighteen there was a first iteration of

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Speaker 1: the Yuzu. There was a first attempt to forming this

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Speaker 1: staff union of temp and local staff. Of course it

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Speaker 1: was created by different people. But what happened then, especially

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Speaker 1: under the Administrative Caucus when it was before the reform

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Speaker 1: leadership septed in, is that everyone was just fired Jesus, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: everyone was just let go. And there are people still

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Speaker 1: around organizing these days in other positions or in other

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Speaker 1: workplaces that you have talked to us about it, and

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Speaker 1: there are people that are working in user now that

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Speaker 1: had friends or were peripheral to that happening. So we

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Speaker 1: are all very familiar with how non renewal is a

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Speaker 1: very retaliatory practice used in UAW in the past, or

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Speaker 1: we thought was in the past, because we were so

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Speaker 1: excited to have this reform leadership come in and now

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Speaker 1: we are finding out that it is still a tool

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Speaker 1: that is consistent. And so when we are excited that

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Speaker 1: there is democratic reform, especially with one member, one vote,

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Speaker 1: which was extremely extremely exciting to see, we also need

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Speaker 1: to point out that there are a lot of different

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Speaker 1: places here that still need to change, especially in how

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Speaker 1: the union treats its own staff.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and unfortunately we need to go to ads. We'll

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Speaker 4: come back. I want to circle back around and talk

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Speaker 4: a bit more about the ways of the UAW is

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Speaker 4: acting like a fairly conventional boss trying to break a union.

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Speaker 4: And we are back. So there's something really interesting. I

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Speaker 4: mean I say interesting, it's something sort of terrible about

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Speaker 4: the way that the UAW is relying on effectively a

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Speaker 4: casualized workforce because because you're dealing with these constant renewals,

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Speaker 4: which are an incredible sort of pressure leverage because it

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Speaker 4: means you don't have job security. It feels like the

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Speaker 4: way Amazon works where they're just like trying intentionally instead

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Speaker 4: of trying to retain people, they're just trying to churn

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Speaker 4: through as many organizers as possible because like the more

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Speaker 4: seniority people have and the more experience they have, the

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Speaker 4: harder it is to like just completely underpay them.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: The keyword in here is flexibility.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and it seems like, also on an institutional level,

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Speaker 3: a terrible idea because you know, you're training a bunch

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Speaker 3: of organizers and then the moment that they're you know,

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Speaker 3: the moment they have a bunch of experience, you're just

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Speaker 3: casting them into the wind and then hiring the less

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Speaker 3: experienced person.

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Speaker 1: It's like you bring up a great point. Actually, something

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Speaker 1: that I want to touch on is end bargaining. We

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Speaker 1: have asked for training and we have not been met

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Speaker 1: with a satisfactory answer. People are not trained. Oh my

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Speaker 1: god before they take on this position. But yes, you're

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Speaker 1: absolutely correct with the institutional knowledge aspect. The campaigns that

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Speaker 1: I'm working on, the organizing committees are real pissed that

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Speaker 1: I have been suddenly disappeared, And I want to highlight

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Speaker 1: something that one organizer brought up is that for all

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Speaker 1: the talk of us being one big union, how we

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Speaker 1: are the union, how we have a democratic saying in

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Speaker 1: this process, it's very weird that someone higher up in

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Speaker 1: the union can just make one of our members disappear.

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Speaker 1: And that is in reference to my unceremonious departure, of course,

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Speaker 1: and the points that we, as you you really want

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Speaker 1: to highlight and emphasize is that we really want to

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Speaker 1: just hold UAW to the values that it has espoused,

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Speaker 1: ending tiers, job security for workers, fair wages, like I

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Speaker 1: said in bargaining, we had asked for training and that

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Speaker 1: has not gone very well. UW is refusing to bargain

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Speaker 1: over free speech and continuity representation, which refers to the

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Speaker 1: hypothetical scenario if Region nine A were to be absorbed

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Speaker 1: somewhere else the right for user to still exist, and

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Speaker 1: they refuse to bargain over that we are stuck in

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Speaker 1: wages at somewhere around three percent per year of four years. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's not great, and there's been a lot of chaos

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Speaker 1: behind the scenes that it is implied to be a

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Speaker 1: bad thing to let the members know about the members

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Speaker 1: that we work with and organize with. But to a

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Speaker 1: certain point things boil over, and especially in the case

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Speaker 1: where I am suddenly not renewed, it is really important

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Speaker 1: in our view that our members know what is happening. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that the members know what this is about, because they

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Speaker 1: get the news landed on them after our social media

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Speaker 1: posts come out. Because I am told not to inform

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Speaker 1: the organizers myself, and so the organizers had to hear

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Speaker 1: about it from my supervisors about a week later with

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Speaker 1: no details. My non renewal was without cause, without justification,

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Speaker 1: without reason. They did not give me an answer to

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Speaker 1: my face. And then as Yuzu kept pushing higher ups

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Speaker 1: kept flip flopping on who to blame and what the

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Speaker 1: actual cause was. And what I'm getting is a sense

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Speaker 1: of surprise that people are angry about this in.

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Speaker 3: The first place.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, as if this was a normal situation, that people

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Speaker 1: were just getting fired any other day with a month's notice,

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Speaker 1: And they're like, we gave her a month's notice.

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Speaker 4: Which also like I feel like, like, what was the last

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Speaker 4: a bit of these people were on a shop floor?

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Speaker 3: Like do you know how disruptive it is?

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Speaker 4: Like if someone had pulled like so we had when

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Speaker 4: we were organizing our union, we had we've had a

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Speaker 4: number of like great writer, skilled staffers, and if like,

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Speaker 4: if someone had just pulled our staffer out in the

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Speaker 4: middle of the drive, like all of us would have

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Speaker 4: been unbelievably pissed, and it would have done incredible about

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Speaker 4: the damage to the organizing because like union organizing, as

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Speaker 4: you are well aware, and I think as the audience

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Speaker 4: should be increasingly aware, it's built on personal relations. You

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Speaker 4: can't just yank someone out and then not allow them

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Speaker 4: to even know what's happening. Like that's that's incredibly disruptive.

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Speaker 4: It pisses people off.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's been very enraging for a lot of our members,

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Speaker 1: and so I've been extremely grateful for the support that

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Speaker 1: I received, whether it be on social media or by

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Speaker 1: our email campaign to management. And what I've seen from

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Speaker 1: this is that management was really taken by surprise that

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Speaker 1: there was a reaction at all, kind of unfortunately for them.

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Speaker 1: There are a lot of shops and a lot of

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Speaker 1: units that I have supported and organized with and have

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Speaker 1: relationships with, and even for the shops that I don't

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Speaker 1: have relationships with, Yuzu members are working in those shops,

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Speaker 1: and there is a common understanding that it'd be really

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Speaker 1: weird for a stafford to be randomly pulled out during

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Speaker 1: a very active campaign. I've had a rough couple months

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Speaker 1: of going at it because I think there have been

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Speaker 1: some really unhealthy dynamics in the workplace with supervision that

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Speaker 1: was unjust and punishment that was unjust for my attempt

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Speaker 1: to advocate for different units and attempt to advocate for organizing.

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Speaker 1: And I think that is why we have reached the

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Speaker 1: conclusion that retaliation retribution must be involved somehow. On paper,

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Speaker 1: this was a very oddly handled situation. I was notified

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Speaker 1: by email on three thirty pm on a Friday before

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Speaker 1: Labor Day weekend, Jesus Christ. I was not informed by

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Speaker 1: a meeting, not informed by a call. My supervisor didn't

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Speaker 1: pick up my calls until two and a half hours later.

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Speaker 3: Oh my god, in the meantime.

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Speaker 1: Where they were actually informing my co workers that I

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Speaker 1: had been terminated, and then came back to me saying

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Speaker 1: that they were busy Jesus, which no firing happens like that.

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry, but there was no conceivable way where the

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Speaker 1: HR email happens. And then my supervisor is busy telling

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Speaker 1: my co workers that I've been let go, which you know,

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Speaker 1: we are interpreting as intimidation because why else would this

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Speaker 1: be happening.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, but even corporate best layoffs don't work like that,

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Speaker 4: Like you at least get a meeting.

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Speaker 1: No, I didn't get a meeting until the Tuesday after

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Speaker 1: to talk about transitioning my work, and they had no

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Speaker 1: plan to transition my work. So currently no one is

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Speaker 1: handling the work that I was responsible for, which is

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Speaker 1: so we.

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Speaker 3: Just screw your units.

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Speaker 1: That's quite dangerous for campaign and higher ED as the

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Speaker 1: semester ramps up.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, oh god, oh yeah.

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Speaker 1: And of course the hr email was signed in solidarity

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Speaker 1: and had no name. I didn't want to bring up

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Speaker 1: that point. There is evidence. Yes, it's extraordinarily funny if

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Speaker 1: you actually look at it. But yeah, just even if

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Speaker 1: we didn't have the context of what has happened to

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Speaker 1: me in the workplace in the last six months, even

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Speaker 1: just on paper, looking at how this non renewal was handled,

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Speaker 1: it was handled atrociously. Yeah, and so there is not

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Speaker 1: much else we can draw from it other than the

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Speaker 1: fact that I was someone they wanted to get rid

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Speaker 1: of expeditiously, but just didn't anticipate that people would be

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Speaker 1: mad about it, which is, you know, to me a

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Speaker 1: sense that people up there handling it are a little

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Speaker 1: out of touch, Like, yeah, they haven't experience what it's

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Speaker 1: like to have this happen, to have a staff a

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Speaker 1: randomly yanked out during the middle of a really active campaign.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, we need to go to ads again, but we will.

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Speaker 4: We will be back soon. And what are our product services?

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Speaker 4: We're about to have unionize them and then also ugnize

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Speaker 4: your staff.

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Speaker 3: We are back.

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Speaker 4: So it's something we've been talking about in terms of

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Speaker 4: sort of your specific situation and how it's the terrible

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Speaker 4: impact and it's had on both you personally and the

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Speaker 4: organizing that's going on. And I wanted to come around

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Speaker 4: to talking a bit about the impact that this structure

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Speaker 4: and the impact that getting denied benefits and stuff like that,

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Speaker 4: the impact that this has in general on the way

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Speaker 4: that organizing new shops works.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that the impact this has very concretely

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Speaker 1: is that it does not let us do good work.

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Speaker 1: It makes us as organizers scared every three months that

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Speaker 1: we have to have another plan. It makes us have

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Speaker 1: to prepare a plan every time that rolls around, and

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Speaker 1: then you know that takes our focus off of the

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Speaker 1: organizing that we could be doing. I mentioned earlier about

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Speaker 1: workload organizers get burnt out extremely easily because there are

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Speaker 1: no guardrails in place, and then there are plenty plenty

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Speaker 1: of other circumstances that make it very difficult within this

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Speaker 1: workplace too. For example, we don't have just cause we

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Speaker 1: don't have grievance procedures Jesus Christ. And it makes a

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Speaker 1: very damaging environment, especially when you consider that the members

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Speaker 1: have to bargain for their own contracts, and then they

399
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Speaker 1: look at us and they're like, wait a minute, why

400
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Speaker 1: are your contracts that bad? It doesn't inspire trust. It

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Speaker 1: doesn't inspire faith in how this union would organize for

402
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Speaker 1: its workers if the staff are insecure constantly, And we're

403
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Speaker 1: not asking for the moon and the stars in Mars,

404
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Speaker 1: which is unfortunately what the UW lawyer accused us of

405
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Speaker 1: doing so in a bargaining session. We are asking for

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Speaker 1: very simple guardrails on job security, on workload, on healthcare

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Speaker 1: that could help cover our dependence on wages that are

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Speaker 1: not stagnant. You know, they're not even giving us COLA,

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Speaker 1: which is the phrase for cost of living adjustment, and

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Speaker 1: christ a lot of us live in New York City

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Speaker 1: and then there's folks in Boston and hell, even the

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Speaker 1: transport costs have been a bit of a sticking point

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Speaker 1: where we're like, can we please just get an MTA

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Speaker 1: card or the equivalent. But overall, the structure does not

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Speaker 1: inspire faith in terms of how our contracts are actually

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Speaker 1: negotiated and who is responsible for these contracts. It is

417
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Speaker 1: very difficult to hear from the UAW lawyer that we

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Speaker 1: are reaching for Mars when we are asking for things

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Speaker 1: that are very present in our standard contracts that our

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Speaker 1: members receive. You know, we have taken language from the

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Speaker 1: contracts that our members have and tried to apply them

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Speaker 1: for our own situation, and we've been told that they're

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Speaker 1: too extra. And then, you know, this has been kind

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Speaker 1: of an odd year for union staff. I wanted to

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Speaker 1: highlight that. Anya Earlier this year in National Education Association,

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Speaker 1: their staff were locked out during bargaining eleven ninety nine.

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Speaker 1: SCIU also just formed their staff union, and during the

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Speaker 1: drive they had one of the organizers fired. Thirty two

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Speaker 1: BJSCIU just announced their union and again during their drive,

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Speaker 1: one of their organizers. They've posted this on social media.

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Speaker 1: One of the organizers had a miscarriage and then asked

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Speaker 1: for help, was put on a performance improvement plan, and

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Speaker 1: then fired after a month. And you know, there are

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Speaker 1: these really uncomfortable trends of this mistreatment happening because priorities

435
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Speaker 1: might be elsewhere, or there is an assumption that we

436
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Speaker 1: are more expendable, that maybe we are kennon fodder, But

437
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Speaker 1: that really really is not what is supposed to happen

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Speaker 1: in places that are advocating for fair labor standards. And

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Speaker 1: I am glad that we're hearing more stories about this.

440
00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:44,520
Speaker 1: I'm horrified at the stories that are coming out about this,

441
00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:47,840
Speaker 1: but you know, I hope there are more that are

442
00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:51,360
Speaker 1: formed because a lot of these things are very extreme.

443
00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:54,199
Speaker 4: Yeah, and it's and it's you know, it's impacting not

444
00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:57,280
Speaker 4: just the organizers. I think one of the reasons why

445
00:25:57,400 --> 00:25:59,800
Speaker 4: unionisation ratesil declining is like, well, yeah, okay, you guys

446
00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:02,040
Speaker 4: can firing all of your organizers, Like yeah, of course,

447
00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:04,080
Speaker 4: we're not getting shops for it. And I want to

448
00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:05,960
Speaker 4: say what I think about just specifically, like the mood

449
00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:08,359
Speaker 4: and the Stars thing is it's like, okay. This is

450
00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:10,040
Speaker 4: not to say that this kind of stuff will be

451
00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:12,199
Speaker 4: okay at a smaller union, but like, this is not

452
00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:15,080
Speaker 4: Like we've had a lot of independent unions on this show,

453
00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:17,040
Speaker 4: and those are people, you know, who have formed their

454
00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:19,600
Speaker 4: own using completely independently. In the money they've collected is

455
00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:22,000
Speaker 4: stuff that's come from them, like putting out their hat

456
00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:23,520
Speaker 4: on the street, right. I mean, you know some of

457
00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:25,520
Speaker 4: these unions have like a thousand dollars of assets. This

458
00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:28,639
Speaker 4: is the UAW. The UAW has hundreds of millions of dollars.

459
00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:31,480
Speaker 4: They have unbelievable amounts of money.

460
00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:34,360
Speaker 1: And earlier this year, they were just bragging about how

461
00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:37,720
Speaker 1: they are putting so many more millions into new organizing.

462
00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:40,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, and it's like, well, okay, if you're gonna put

463
00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:42,359
Speaker 4: if you're gonna put all this money into organizing, and

464
00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:44,680
Speaker 4: again they probably should they should be doing more, because

465
00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:47,960
Speaker 4: what is the point of sitting on this much money? Right,

466
00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:50,679
Speaker 4: It's like you're behaving like a financial institution and not

467
00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:53,840
Speaker 4: a and not a union, but like you have the

468
00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:58,960
Speaker 4: money to actually like cultivate and develop effective union organizers,

469
00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:01,480
Speaker 4: and you have the money to meet like pretty mild

470
00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:04,399
Speaker 4: contract contracts that are like I think your contract is

471
00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:07,880
Speaker 4: probably significantly cheaper than like the contract that they're negotiating, right,

472
00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:10,639
Speaker 4: Like this is just this is nonsense, Like we know

473
00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:12,840
Speaker 4: you have this kind of money also because you're paying

474
00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:16,640
Speaker 4: your like managerial staff for six figures, So clearly you

475
00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:19,160
Speaker 4: can do this and you're simply not. And I think

476
00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:21,040
Speaker 4: that should outrage everyone.

477
00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:24,000
Speaker 1: I think that's exactly the response of a lot of

478
00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:27,440
Speaker 1: our members because knowing that a lot of our temp

479
00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:31,760
Speaker 1: organizers and staff organizers are people that are most passionately

480
00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:35,040
Speaker 1: devoting themselves to the labor movement, and you know, are

481
00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:41,120
Speaker 1: met with such unstable job conditions is truly horrifying because

482
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:44,960
Speaker 1: this is not this is not a path to careerism

483
00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:48,399
Speaker 1: like as a temp organizer, there is not much upward

484
00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:50,879
Speaker 1: mobility here. Let me be very clear, there is not

485
00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:53,760
Speaker 1: much upward mobility. It's not like this is a cushy job.

486
00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:56,080
Speaker 1: There is no real way for me to just like

487
00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:59,159
Speaker 1: sit back and relax on piles of bureaucratic money or

488
00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:03,520
Speaker 1: something like that. And that reminds me of how I

489
00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:06,399
Speaker 1: shout out to our Korean comrades that I've met at

490
00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:11,320
Speaker 1: labor notes, where I explained to them what a temporary

491
00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:15,480
Speaker 1: organizer's job is like and how many people we handle

492
00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:19,560
Speaker 1: and how temporary our status is. I was talking to

493
00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:23,840
Speaker 1: some of our equivalents in the auto industry as well,

494
00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:27,800
Speaker 1: the union workers there, and they were pretty horrified at

495
00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:33,680
Speaker 1: the workload, at the insecurity, at the just again lack

496
00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:37,480
Speaker 1: of EQUIVALENCYE. And again I'm not trying to claim that

497
00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:42,040
Speaker 1: Korea's labor organizing world is perfect, like absolutely nobody is.

498
00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:46,480
Speaker 1: But the chakra to them is like, well, why are

499
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:50,280
Speaker 1: you doing this? Why are you working in this job?

500
00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:52,520
Speaker 1: They have asked me this to my face, why are

501
00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:55,440
Speaker 1: you working in this job? What is possibly good enough

502
00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:58,200
Speaker 1: for that for you, And unfortunately a lot of it

503
00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:01,560
Speaker 1: is optimism of the will, and I think that's a

504
00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:05,520
Speaker 1: lot of what's keeping us going. And so my last

505
00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:08,800
Speaker 1: day is supposedly September twenty eighth, but hopefully this month

506
00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:13,320
Speaker 1: there have been fantastic outpourings of support and we are

507
00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:19,920
Speaker 1: also picketing the political Leadership conference on the Friday the thirteenth, scary,

508
00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:24,000
Speaker 1: and I think that is going to really align with

509
00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:27,480
Speaker 1: how YUSUS needed to escalate. I think this is again

510
00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:30,479
Speaker 1: just a boiling point, and it has shown how all

511
00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:33,600
Speaker 1: of this culminates in a very unfair labor standard and

512
00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:37,200
Speaker 1: practice of which we have filed a few charges. But

513
00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:39,680
Speaker 1: there's a lot more that needs to be done. And

514
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:43,120
Speaker 1: even if I don't get reinstated, I think that USU

515
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:46,120
Speaker 1: is a great example of how there's still more change

516
00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:48,240
Speaker 1: that needs to happen within UAW.

517
00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:49,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, hundred percent.

518
00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:53,000
Speaker 4: I want to close by talking about through line through

519
00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:54,920
Speaker 4: a lot of these episodes that we've We've talked with

520
00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:56,680
Speaker 4: a lot of people who work for Planned Parenthood, We've

521
00:29:56,680 --> 00:29:58,400
Speaker 4: talked for a lot of people who work for NGOs,

522
00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:03,440
Speaker 4: and this is the same behavior that they do where

523
00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:06,480
Speaker 4: you know, quite frankly, what they are doing is exploiting,

524
00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:08,760
Speaker 4: exploiting the labor of people who believe in the cause,

525
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:12,400
Speaker 4: and because people are willing to, you know, because because

526
00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:14,360
Speaker 4: people believe in what they're doing, because the work that

527
00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:17,720
Speaker 4: they're doing is vital and necessary, These NGOs and these

528
00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:20,400
Speaker 4: unions think that they can just continuously exploit the people

529
00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:23,680
Speaker 4: who work for them, and this damages the workers, This

530
00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:27,560
Speaker 4: damages the people who they're nominally trying to help, and

531
00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:30,960
Speaker 4: this damages the entire left because when you're sort of

532
00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:34,560
Speaker 4: charting through organizers and when you're sort of fundamentally betraying

533
00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:37,720
Speaker 4: the missions that you're supposed to be doing in order

534
00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:43,040
Speaker 4: to just do more exploitation, this significantly damages literally the

535
00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:46,200
Speaker 4: entire organizing project that we're all fighting for. So Alex,

536
00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:49,120
Speaker 4: thank you so much for coming and talking and talking

537
00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:51,800
Speaker 4: to us about this and I where can people go

538
00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:53,600
Speaker 4: to support you and support you? Zoo?

539
00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:58,800
Speaker 1: Our accounts are UAW staff United on Instagram and Twitter.

540
00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:03,480
Speaker 1: Please follow for more. Check out the adorable Yuzu Lemon

541
00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:06,400
Speaker 1: logos that we have everywhere. If you're in New York

542
00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:09,160
Speaker 1: or Boston, those are our major hubs. We keep an

543
00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:11,080
Speaker 1: eye off for future actions.

544
00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:14,520
Speaker 4: Awesome, thank you again for coming on the show. And yeah,

545
00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:17,720
Speaker 4: if you are a union staffer, because I know I

546
00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:19,200
Speaker 4: know a number of you are listening to this.

547
00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:21,240
Speaker 3: If you're in the UAW, raise hell.

548
00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:24,040
Speaker 4: And if you're not in the UAW and you don't

549
00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:26,200
Speaker 4: have your own staff union, consider it.

550
00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:27,880
Speaker 1: Thank you for having me.

551
00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:52,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you, Robert Evans. Here, this is It could

552
00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:56,520
Speaker 2: happen here a podcast about things falling apart, and today

553
00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:59,120
Speaker 2: I wanted to take some time to talk about Ukraine,

554
00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:02,920
Speaker 2: in particularly to talk about the sort of cultural place

555
00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:08,520
Speaker 2: that the Ukrainian resistance against Russia expanded invasion by Russia

556
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:12,600
Speaker 2: has taken in American politics and in American kind of

557
00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:16,600
Speaker 2: political culture. Obviously, I am recording this within a few

558
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:21,880
Speaker 2: hours of another attempted assassination on former President Trump, this

559
00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:24,680
Speaker 2: one by a guy who, among a confusing milange of

560
00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:28,160
Speaker 2: other things, claimed to be a major advocate of Ukrainian

561
00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:30,240
Speaker 2: sovereignty and that that was a major reason why he

562
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:33,880
Speaker 2: was angry at the Republicans and angry at former President Trump,

563
00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:38,640
Speaker 2: and kind of that at least failed assassination attempt is

564
00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:42,280
Speaker 2: sort of in line with a lot of derangement around Ukraine,

565
00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:44,040
Speaker 2: and you can find this on the left and the

566
00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:46,640
Speaker 2: right in the center. I've come to think that if

567
00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:50,720
Speaker 2: you're trying to evaluate sort of how credible someone is

568
00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:53,600
Speaker 2: as a geopolitical expert today, one of the best things

569
00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:55,720
Speaker 2: you can do is kind of look back to early

570
00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:58,720
Speaker 2: February twenty twenty two and see what sort of claims

571
00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:01,120
Speaker 2: they were making about what is going to happen, whether

572
00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:04,360
Speaker 2: or not Russia was actually going to go into Ukraine

573
00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:07,760
Speaker 2: and expand their invasion. And that's obviously, you know, a

574
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:10,400
Speaker 2: bigger topic than I think we're going to get into today.

575
00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:13,000
Speaker 2: One of the things that I find really interesting when

576
00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:16,640
Speaker 2: I kind of analyze how particularly conservatives have turned on

577
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:20,760
Speaker 2: the Ukrainian cause, is how kind of incomprehensible that seems,

578
00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:23,760
Speaker 2: just based on the way in which I was raised

579
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:26,960
Speaker 2: by the conservatives in my life to think about Russia

580
00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:30,840
Speaker 2: and to think about like Russian military aggression. You know,

581
00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:34,120
Speaker 2: I grew up largely in the post Cold War era,

582
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:37,760
Speaker 2: but my parents were both like raised by Cold warriors.

583
00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:41,080
Speaker 2: They mostly grew up on military basis, and I still

584
00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:43,400
Speaker 2: grew up with an awful lot of the kind of

585
00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:47,760
Speaker 2: Cold War shrapnel, and my sort of ideological training. You know,

586
00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:51,200
Speaker 2: the movie Read Dawn was a big part of my childhood.

587
00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:53,840
Speaker 2: You know, some of those early James Bond movies where

588
00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:56,640
Speaker 2: the Soviet Unions are still the bad guy. You know,

589
00:33:56,680 --> 00:33:59,080
Speaker 2: this was all major stuff for me. So it's it's

590
00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:05,320
Speaker 2: been particularly disorienting kind of watching Philo Russian attitudes infiltrate

591
00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:08,160
Speaker 2: the right and us move from this idea of like

592
00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:11,080
Speaker 2: these people are one way or the other kind of

593
00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:15,319
Speaker 2: a geopolitical opponent of the United States towards these people

594
00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:18,719
Speaker 2: are almost existing in an idealized version of the society

595
00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:22,160
Speaker 2: we bring around. It's been a cause of some whiplash

596
00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:24,160
Speaker 2: for me and for I think a lot of people

597
00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:26,920
Speaker 2: who were raised in that environment and then kind of

598
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:30,680
Speaker 2: came out of those ideological beliefs. And when we look

599
00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:33,800
Speaker 2: at the kind of turnaround on the right about this stuff.

600
00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:36,239
Speaker 2: One of the people who's been on the bleeding edge

601
00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:39,240
Speaker 2: of this has been Vice presidential candidate JD.

602
00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:39,840
Speaker 3: Vance.

603
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:43,359
Speaker 2: And in fact, Ukraine might mark the first place where

604
00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:45,960
Speaker 2: Vance really came in ahead of the rest of his

605
00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:49,120
Speaker 2: party on an issue they would all ultimately move in

606
00:34:49,200 --> 00:34:52,440
Speaker 2: behind him on back in early twenty twenty two, in

607
00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:55,960
Speaker 2: the immediate wake of Russia's expanded invasion, Vance told Steve

608
00:34:56,040 --> 00:35:00,440
Speaker 2: Bannon in one of his many ill advised podcast interviews, quote,

609
00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:03,279
Speaker 2: I don't really care what happens to Ukraine one way

610
00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:06,240
Speaker 2: or the other. Now is This paragraph from an article

611
00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:09,800
Speaker 2: by Ed Kilgore and New York Magazine makes clear Vance

612
00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:14,280
Speaker 2: was swiftly followed by others. Quote Then Congressman Madison Cawthorn

613
00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:18,120
Speaker 2: paroted Russian propaganda by saying the Ukrainian government is incredibly

614
00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:22,080
Speaker 2: corrupt and is incredibly evil and has been pushing woke ideologies,

615
00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:26,400
Speaker 2: and his colleague Marjorie Taylor Green called the Ukrainians neo Nazis.

616
00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:29,600
Speaker 2: Fox News's Tucker Carlson was a constant font of bitter

617
00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:34,800
Speaker 2: hostility towards USAID for Ukraine. Now Cawthorne was and remains

618
00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:36,879
Speaker 2: now a stooge. But I think it really is kind

619
00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:39,680
Speaker 2: of drilling into the precise wording of his claim here,

620
00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:43,759
Speaker 2: the fact that he's so focused on wokeness within the

621
00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:47,879
Speaker 2: context of a conflict that seems much more serious than

622
00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:51,680
Speaker 2: kind of the standard American culture war bullshit. A lot

623
00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:53,640
Speaker 2: of why we're seeing this has to do with the

624
00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:56,759
Speaker 2: fallout over the Russia Gate culture war that consumed the

625
00:35:56,760 --> 00:36:00,480
Speaker 2: Democrats during the first half of the Trump administration. This

626
00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:03,200
Speaker 2: led to the enemy of the enemy is my friend's

627
00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:06,000
Speaker 2: sort of thinking among the right, and this was stoked

628
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:10,279
Speaker 2: consciously by Russian propaganda efforts. After Trump left office, these

629
00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:13,560
Speaker 2: efforts were redoubled, especially after the war in Ukraine became

630
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:17,920
Speaker 2: an existential issue for Putin's regime. A good example of

631
00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:21,120
Speaker 2: the more obvious sort of messaging is this Moscow Times

632
00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:24,360
Speaker 2: article from May of twenty twenty three, with the title

633
00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:29,680
Speaker 2: Russia to build migrant village for conservative American expats. Quote

634
00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:34,720
Speaker 2: Timor Beslangarov, a migration lawyer at Moscow's Vista Foreign Business Support,

635
00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:37,440
Speaker 2: claimed that around two hundred families wish to immigrate to

636
00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:42,640
Speaker 2: Russia for ideological reasons. The reason is propaganda of radical values.

637
00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:45,799
Speaker 2: Today they have seventy genders and who knows what will

638
00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:50,720
Speaker 2: come next. Ria Novosti quoted Bessangarov as saying, echoing President

639
00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:56,080
Speaker 2: Vladimir Putin's frequently deployed grievances against Western countries comparative gender freedom,

640
00:36:56,360 --> 00:36:59,040
Speaker 2: and here we see it again. The focus on hatred

641
00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:02,200
Speaker 2: of woke as a j justification for solidarity with Russia.

642
00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:06,520
Speaker 2: A sizeable plurality of Americans still support the US sending

643
00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:09,840
Speaker 2: aid to Ukraine, and the reality of Russia's invasion is

644
00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:12,840
Speaker 2: hideous enough that the bulk of modern Russian propaganda in

645
00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:16,320
Speaker 2: this country today seems to focus on the woke issue

646
00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:19,960
Speaker 2: more than anything directly relevant to the war. As I

647
00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:22,280
Speaker 2: write this, one of the top stories in the country

648
00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:25,919
Speaker 2: is how a Tennessee based media network, Tenant Media, hired

649
00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:28,719
Speaker 2: a bunch of American influencers like Tim Poole and Dave

650
00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:31,200
Speaker 2: Rubin and paid them north of one hundred grand of

651
00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:34,880
Speaker 2: video to make Russian propaganda. Now, pool and Ruben and

652
00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:37,480
Speaker 2: their fellows claim to be shocked, shocked that a foreign

653
00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:41,480
Speaker 2: government was involved in all and deny acting as unregistered

654
00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:44,520
Speaker 2: foreign agents or breaking the law in any way. We'll

655
00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:47,640
Speaker 2: see how those claims look in a few months. For now,

656
00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:50,880
Speaker 2: I think it's illustrative to turn towards a Wired analysis

657
00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:54,160
Speaker 2: of the content of dozens of Tenant Media videos written

658
00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:57,799
Speaker 2: by Tim Marshman and Drove Merota. It shows us the

659
00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:01,000
Speaker 2: kind of propaganda that Russia found fruit full inceding to

660
00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:04,840
Speaker 2: an American audience quote. This analysis does not show that

661
00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:08,120
Speaker 2: in these videos the influencers were particularly fixated on the

662
00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:11,640
Speaker 2: Ukraine War. The word Ukraine appears in the transcript sixty

663
00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:15,600
Speaker 2: seven times, about as often as misinformation, Christianity, and Clinton.

664
00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:19,759
Speaker 2: It does show the influencers stressing highly divisive culture war

665
00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:23,480
Speaker 2: topics in the videos, which carried titles like trans widows

666
00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:26,400
Speaker 2: are a thing, and it's getting all caps out of hand,

667
00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:30,640
Speaker 2: and race is biological, but gender isn't question mark, question

668
00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:33,920
Speaker 2: mark question mark. The word trans appears one hundred and

669
00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:38,280
Speaker 2: fifty two times and transgender ninety eight, So sixty seven

670
00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:41,400
Speaker 2: times we see Ukraine appear in these transcripts, as opposed

671
00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:46,040
Speaker 2: to well over two hundred times for trans and transgender together. Now,

672
00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:48,560
Speaker 2: if you want a snapshot of just how absurd and

673
00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:51,800
Speaker 2: divorced from reality the culture wars have gotten, the Russian

674
00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:56,680
Speaker 2: government funding a clandestine influence operation considered stoking fears about

675
00:38:56,680 --> 00:38:59,239
Speaker 2: trans people to have a higher rate of return than

676
00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:03,560
Speaker 2: actually propag ggandizing directly about the war in Ukraine. As

677
00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:06,920
Speaker 2: absurd as this sounds, these tactics have borne fruit, and

678
00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:09,600
Speaker 2: I think the reason why is simple. By building a

679
00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:14,040
Speaker 2: sense of solidarity between bigoted American conservatives and what they

680
00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:18,800
Speaker 2: see as a similarly conservative Russia. Now Obviously, the reality

681
00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:21,600
Speaker 2: of the situation is that Russia is not exactly the

682
00:39:21,640 --> 00:39:24,480
Speaker 2: country these people think it is. While it is true

683
00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:27,120
Speaker 2: that the number of Russian adults who consider themselves at

684
00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:31,040
Speaker 2: least somewhat religious skyrocketed after the fall of the USSR

685
00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:34,480
Speaker 2: from eleven percent or so to over fifty percent today,

686
00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:37,760
Speaker 2: much of that is likely just explained by the change

687
00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:42,480
Speaker 2: away from an expressly atheistic government. Even today, Pew Research

688
00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:45,879
Speaker 2: notes quote for most Russians, the return to religion did

689
00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:49,200
Speaker 2: not correspond with a return to church. Across all three

690
00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:52,160
Speaker 2: waves of ISSPD data, no more than about one in

691
00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:55,719
Speaker 2: ten Russians said they attend religious services at least once

692
00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:58,719
Speaker 2: a month. The share of regular attenders monthly or more

693
00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:01,800
Speaker 2: often was two percent to nineteen ninety one, nine percent

694
00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:04,680
Speaker 2: to nineteen ninety eight, and seven percent in two thousand

695
00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:08,480
Speaker 2: and eight. For reference, about thirty two percent of Americans

696
00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:12,920
Speaker 2: currently attend church, synagogue, mosque, et cetera on a weekly basis.

697
00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:13,440
Speaker 6: Now.

698
00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:16,600
Speaker 2: This is down significantly from forty nine percent in nineteen

699
00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:19,640
Speaker 2: fifty eight and does represent a low for church attendance

700
00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:22,359
Speaker 2: in US history. But you can see we still beat

701
00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:25,840
Speaker 2: the Russians in at least active religiosity by a factor

702
00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:29,640
Speaker 2: of like five. Now, one of the modern bugbears of

703
00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:32,200
Speaker 2: the right wing in the US is no fault divorce,

704
00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:36,080
Speaker 2: which often gets wrapped up in conversations about wokeness. Here,

705
00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:39,760
Speaker 2: Russia is also not a bastion of good old fashioned values.

706
00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:42,280
Speaker 2: I'm going to quote from an article in Russia Beyond

707
00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:47,200
Speaker 2: by Nikolay Schefchenko in twenty sixteen. The ratio in Russian

708
00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:49,680
Speaker 2: of divorces to new marriages that year was one to

709
00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:52,680
Speaker 2: one point six, meaning that Russians divorce more often than

710
00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:56,000
Speaker 2: they marry. In recent decades, over sixty percent of marriages

711
00:40:56,040 --> 00:41:01,200
Speaker 2: in Russia ended an official separation. Now, there is precisely

712
00:41:01,239 --> 00:41:04,080
Speaker 2: one issue where Russian culture is in reality more in

713
00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:07,640
Speaker 2: line with the kind of culture American conservatives claim to desire,

714
00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:10,960
Speaker 2: and that is in its treatment of LGBT people and

715
00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:14,719
Speaker 2: ethnic minorities. The last years in Putin's Russia have seen

716
00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:18,359
Speaker 2: a surge in hate crimes against queer Russians, as LGBT

717
00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:22,520
Speaker 2: advocacy organizations have been declared illegal and punished by the government.

718
00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:26,759
Speaker 2: This is the Russia our American right wing finds solidarity with,

719
00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:30,560
Speaker 2: and we shouldn't forget that right when we're looking at

720
00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:33,279
Speaker 2: to what extent do these people see Russia as kind

721
00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:35,480
Speaker 2: of embodying the values they would like to bring to

722
00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:37,759
Speaker 2: the United States. It has a lot less to do

723
00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:41,840
Speaker 2: with actual religiosity, with good old fashioned family values, and

724
00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:44,240
Speaker 2: a lot more to do with hate for specific groups

725
00:41:44,239 --> 00:41:47,200
Speaker 2: of people. And we're going to talk about what that

726
00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:50,359
Speaker 2: means within the context of US politics in a little bit.

727
00:41:50,440 --> 00:42:04,799
Speaker 2: But first here's some ads. So earlier this year, I

728
00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:07,560
Speaker 2: headed to the Republican National Convention, and I had a

729
00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:09,479
Speaker 2: lot on my mind there, But one of the things

730
00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:12,160
Speaker 2: I was kind of interested in is hearing the way

731
00:42:12,280 --> 00:42:16,600
Speaker 2: in which conservatives talked about Ukraine when they felt like

732
00:42:16,680 --> 00:42:20,800
Speaker 2: they were among friends. It was not uncommon to hear

733
00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:24,799
Speaker 2: Ukraine referenced in conversations as a geopolitical enemy of the

734
00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:28,120
Speaker 2: United States. And you know, this is something I encountered

735
00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:29,920
Speaker 2: a number of times, and I wanted to make sure

736
00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:32,759
Speaker 2: it wasn't just a fluke of my own experiences there.

737
00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:36,040
Speaker 2: And I assure you it was not. Michael Witely, who

738
00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:39,480
Speaker 2: Donald Trump picked to chair the RNC, appeared on Fox

739
00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:42,520
Speaker 2: News in April and lumped Ukraine in with China and

740
00:42:42,560 --> 00:42:47,680
Speaker 2: Iran as aggressive adversaries. Of the United States. Now, you know,

741
00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:50,040
Speaker 2: we can quibble on that list for a number of reasons,

742
00:42:50,040 --> 00:42:53,240
Speaker 2: but Ukraine, a country we are currently arming and training

743
00:42:53,239 --> 00:42:55,800
Speaker 2: to fight in our stead, is just kind of absurd

744
00:42:55,920 --> 00:42:59,240
Speaker 2: to describe as an aggressive adversary of the United States.

745
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:00,200
Speaker 6: Now.

746
00:43:00,239 --> 00:43:03,320
Speaker 2: That very month, Congress voted on a foreign aid package,

747
00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:06,560
Speaker 2: which caused a massive split in the Republican Party. The

748
00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:10,080
Speaker 2: anti Ukraine side was led by voices like Marjorie Taylor Green,

749
00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:13,920
Speaker 2: who told Steve Bannon, the Ukrainian government is attacking Christians.

750
00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:17,920
Speaker 2: The Ukrainian government is executing priests. Russia is not doing that.

751
00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:22,520
Speaker 2: They're not attacking Christianity. Now, like most things, Green says,

752
00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:25,520
Speaker 2: this is not quite accurate. The Guardian noted at the

753
00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:28,880
Speaker 2: time quote. In fact, according to figures from the Institute

754
00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:31,840
Speaker 2: for Religious Freedom, a Ukrainian group, at least six hundred

755
00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:34,440
Speaker 2: and thirty religious sites had been damaged or looted in

756
00:43:34,520 --> 00:43:39,400
Speaker 2: Russia's invasion by December last year. Green received a speaking

757
00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:43,040
Speaker 2: slot at the RNC, as did tech investor David Sachs,

758
00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:45,640
Speaker 2: who spent some of his time on stage arguing that

759
00:43:45,719 --> 00:43:49,359
Speaker 2: Joe Biden somehow provoked the Russians to invade Ukraine by

760
00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:52,839
Speaker 2: talking about NATO expansion. Now, this is a claim you'll

761
00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:54,759
Speaker 2: hear on some segments of the left too, and it

762
00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:58,000
Speaker 2: tends to ignore that Russia invaded back in twenty fourteen

763
00:43:58,280 --> 00:44:01,640
Speaker 2: after a revolution against a Krimlin back to President Yenikovich,

764
00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:05,719
Speaker 2: threw their own plans in the region into disarray. Ukraine

765
00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:08,680
Speaker 2: to this day, despite the expanded invasion, is not a

766
00:44:08,719 --> 00:44:11,839
Speaker 2: part of NATO, and Biden's administration has been leery not

767
00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:14,520
Speaker 2: only of pushing for this, but of supplying Ukraine with

768
00:44:14,600 --> 00:44:18,480
Speaker 2: long range weapons to strike inside Russian territory. The fact

769
00:44:18,520 --> 00:44:21,920
Speaker 2: that Ukrainians and others did start discussing Ukrainian membership in

770
00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:24,880
Speaker 2: NATO after almost a decade of war is certainly not

771
00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:27,759
Speaker 2: among the things that we can blame the Biden administration

772
00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:32,239
Speaker 2: for starting. As I trolled the RNC talking to attendees

773
00:44:32,280 --> 00:44:34,800
Speaker 2: about their feelings on the war, I got a variety

774
00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:38,880
Speaker 2: of responses. The most positive believe that Ukraine had been wronged,

775
00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:41,480
Speaker 2: but that the war was unwinnable, so the US had

776
00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:44,799
Speaker 2: to negotiate some kind of peace. Moore argued that the

777
00:44:44,880 --> 00:44:49,360
Speaker 2: Ukrainians were somehow stealing usaid, which they imagined would be

778
00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:52,799
Speaker 2: put to better use helping Americans. I found this an

779
00:44:52,840 --> 00:44:56,719
Speaker 2: illogical position personally, given that our aid Ukraine has primarily

780
00:44:56,760 --> 00:44:59,319
Speaker 2: taken the form of old weapons systems no longer in

781
00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:02,600
Speaker 2: use by USA troops unless you want to house homeless

782
00:45:02,680 --> 00:45:05,520
Speaker 2: veterans in Bradley fighting vehicles. I don't really see how

783
00:45:05,560 --> 00:45:08,000
Speaker 2: what we've sent Zelensky is much used to the kind

784
00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:12,239
Speaker 2: of Americans who are actually suffering today. The most enlightening

785
00:45:12,360 --> 00:45:15,400
Speaker 2: conversation that I had while I was at the Republican

786
00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:19,239
Speaker 2: Convention about their sentiments on Ukraine came when Garrison and

787
00:45:19,280 --> 00:45:23,319
Speaker 2: I stumbled upon Rudy Giuliani, seated at the booth for

788
00:45:23,400 --> 00:45:27,080
Speaker 2: some streaming network or another, exiled from the main stage

789
00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:30,160
Speaker 2: of the event. I introduced myself to Rudy and we

790
00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:33,239
Speaker 2: started off just talking about how surreal the mood was

791
00:45:33,320 --> 00:45:36,520
Speaker 2: given the recent attempted assassination of the former president.

792
00:45:37,280 --> 00:45:40,680
Speaker 6: He's a conquering hero in history. We would have been

793
00:45:40,719 --> 00:45:43,640
Speaker 6: even without a Saturday. It's Saturday. It's surreal.

794
00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:45,880
Speaker 7: I think people feel they're living through history.

795
00:45:46,640 --> 00:45:50,200
Speaker 6: That image of him in Rallying America has to be

796
00:45:50,239 --> 00:45:53,719
Speaker 6: one of our ten historical great interest now.

797
00:45:53,800 --> 00:45:56,759
Speaker 2: I included that because it's a fun snapshot of just

798
00:45:56,880 --> 00:46:00,880
Speaker 2: how elated Republicans were that week, right before Biden dropped

799
00:46:00,920 --> 00:46:04,280
Speaker 2: out and the whole election changed yet again on a dime.

800
00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:07,200
Speaker 2: From here, Rudy and I moved to talking a bit

801
00:46:07,200 --> 00:46:09,640
Speaker 2: about how badly the Secret Service had fucked up in

802
00:46:09,680 --> 00:46:12,680
Speaker 2: protecting Trump, which is not really something I had a

803
00:46:12,680 --> 00:46:15,839
Speaker 2: particular disagreement with, although I think Juliani was coming at

804
00:46:15,840 --> 00:46:19,000
Speaker 2: it from more of a conspiratorial standpoint than I would.

805
00:46:19,080 --> 00:46:22,000
Speaker 2: I think simple incompetence more or less explains everything that

806
00:46:22,080 --> 00:46:26,200
Speaker 2: happened that day pretty well. This morphed in fairly short

807
00:46:26,320 --> 00:46:28,840
Speaker 2: order into him ranting about how all of this was

808
00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:31,279
Speaker 2: Biden's fault and how no one ever gets fired for

809
00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:35,560
Speaker 2: incompetence in the Biden administration. He brought up Afghanistan and

810
00:46:35,640 --> 00:46:38,719
Speaker 2: that is what led us finally to Ukraine.

811
00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:41,200
Speaker 6: Ukraine would not have happened if he hadn't been a

812
00:46:41,200 --> 00:46:44,880
Speaker 6: complete power at over Afghanis. Now, Yeah, what proof is

813
00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:49,840
Speaker 6: very simple. Pudin invaded three times under the last four presidents,

814
00:46:50,200 --> 00:46:51,799
Speaker 6: because only one president he was scared of.

815
00:46:52,120 --> 00:46:52,640
Speaker 8: It was Trump.

816
00:46:52,920 --> 00:46:55,840
Speaker 6: He invaded under Bush, he invaded under Obama, he invaded

817
00:46:55,880 --> 00:46:58,759
Speaker 6: under Biden. He didn't invade under Trump. So don't tell

818
00:46:58,760 --> 00:47:00,239
Speaker 6: me he would have invaded on the Trump you had

819
00:47:00,239 --> 00:47:00,760
Speaker 6: a chance.

820
00:47:00,600 --> 00:47:03,640
Speaker 2: To what he did now, I responded by pointing out

821
00:47:03,719 --> 00:47:07,239
Speaker 2: that Juliani's time frame was a little off. Well, but

822
00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:10,480
Speaker 2: I mean I was there in twenty fifteen, and my

823
00:47:10,560 --> 00:47:13,040
Speaker 2: friends who were in the Ukrainian military were still fighting

824
00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:16,200
Speaker 2: under Trump. You know, the invasion, Yeah, was still happening.

825
00:47:16,400 --> 00:47:19,080
Speaker 2: It was just not at the current level that it's at.

826
00:47:19,560 --> 00:47:22,440
Speaker 2: Rudy went on to blame Obama for not having given

827
00:47:22,440 --> 00:47:24,640
Speaker 2: weapons to Ukraine in a timely fashion.

828
00:47:25,160 --> 00:47:31,960
Speaker 6: The fact of Koroshenko, who is a corrupt pal of Biden's,

829
00:47:32,360 --> 00:47:36,160
Speaker 6: told me that, yeah, they were my friends, but I

830
00:47:36,200 --> 00:47:39,120
Speaker 6: didn't get any guns until Trump came in. They wanted

831
00:47:39,160 --> 00:47:41,120
Speaker 6: me to win with t shootings and stuff.

832
00:47:41,360 --> 00:47:41,600
Speaker 8: He said.

833
00:47:41,600 --> 00:47:42,759
Speaker 6: I didn't have a new what side they were on.

834
00:47:44,200 --> 00:47:46,719
Speaker 6: Obama never gave them alls. He gave them money.

835
00:47:47,840 --> 00:47:51,640
Speaker 2: Now, this is again not accurate. By December of twenty nineteen,

836
00:47:51,760 --> 00:47:54,399
Speaker 2: the US had provided Ukraine with about one point five

837
00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:57,879
Speaker 2: billion dollars in aid since the twenty fourteen invasion. This

838
00:47:57,960 --> 00:48:01,359
Speaker 2: did include weapons including javel in, anti tank missiles and

839
00:48:01,560 --> 00:48:04,120
Speaker 2: armored vehicles, which is why they had some of these

840
00:48:04,160 --> 00:48:09,040
Speaker 2: weapons win the expanded Russian invasion occurred. Rather than loosening

841
00:48:09,080 --> 00:48:12,640
Speaker 2: the purse strings. As Russian aggression continued, President Trump withheld

842
00:48:12,680 --> 00:48:15,040
Speaker 2: three hundred and ninety one million dollars in aid to

843
00:48:15,080 --> 00:48:18,839
Speaker 2: try and get a political favor from Zelenski. We're going

844
00:48:18,880 --> 00:48:22,960
Speaker 2: to continue with Rudy Giuliani and my conversation, but first

845
00:48:23,480 --> 00:48:37,839
Speaker 2: here's a little bit more ads and we're back. So,

846
00:48:38,480 --> 00:48:41,560
Speaker 2: after Juliani made his claim that the United States didn't

847
00:48:41,600 --> 00:48:44,640
Speaker 2: send any weapons over to Ukraine until Trump was president,

848
00:48:45,239 --> 00:48:47,440
Speaker 2: he said this, he.

849
00:48:47,440 --> 00:48:50,440
Speaker 6: Let Biden handle the money, the last guy in the

850
00:48:50,440 --> 00:48:53,560
Speaker 6: world that should be only money to Ukraine now and

851
00:48:53,760 --> 00:48:56,279
Speaker 6: Ukraine's gotten two hundred billion and nobody let us order it.

852
00:48:57,280 --> 00:49:02,960
Speaker 6: This is the acknowledge to be the seconds most corrupt

853
00:49:03,120 --> 00:49:06,280
Speaker 6: country in the world. The fact that they were invaded

854
00:49:06,320 --> 00:49:09,320
Speaker 6: by Russia doesn't make them honest. It makes him the victim,

855
00:49:09,360 --> 00:49:12,160
Speaker 6: doesn't make them honest. And you care a couple hundred

856
00:49:12,160 --> 00:49:15,600
Speaker 6: billion in there without controls? What am I a jackass?

857
00:49:15,680 --> 00:49:17,839
Speaker 6: I can't figure out what's happening, and you don't win

858
00:49:18,680 --> 00:49:20,080
Speaker 6: now much more do you have? You can let's hunch a

859
00:49:20,080 --> 00:49:20,760
Speaker 6: billion company.

860
00:49:21,200 --> 00:49:25,000
Speaker 2: Now, Rudy like most Republicans on this issue always describes

861
00:49:25,040 --> 00:49:28,040
Speaker 2: the aid we've sent to Ukraine as it's cash. I

862
00:49:28,080 --> 00:49:31,040
Speaker 2: find it interesting that he claims Ukrainian corruption is also

863
00:49:31,160 --> 00:49:34,400
Speaker 2: somehow to blame for US not auditing the aid we sent. Now,

864
00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:37,680
Speaker 2: there are issues with how the US Defense Department has

865
00:49:37,800 --> 00:49:40,839
Speaker 2: audited some of the aid going to Ukraine, but those

866
00:49:40,840 --> 00:49:43,560
Speaker 2: are issues with the Defense Department. In fact, it came

867
00:49:43,600 --> 00:49:46,480
Speaker 2: out in January of twenty twenty four that the United

868
00:49:46,480 --> 00:49:49,239
Speaker 2: States failed to audit about a billion dollars worth of

869
00:49:49,280 --> 00:49:53,160
Speaker 2: military aid to Ukraine. Now, first off, this is not cash,

870
00:49:53,239 --> 00:49:56,960
Speaker 2: as Juliani repeatedly insinuates. It's all weapons, and there's no

871
00:49:57,080 --> 00:49:59,400
Speaker 2: evidence that any of these weapons were ever sold to

872
00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:03,000
Speaker 2: another kind of or used outside of Ukraine. They simply

873
00:50:03,080 --> 00:50:05,359
Speaker 2: weren't audited the way that they ought to have been

874
00:50:05,440 --> 00:50:08,160
Speaker 2: because the Pentagon fired all of the people who should

875
00:50:08,200 --> 00:50:11,760
Speaker 2: have been auditing this aid. Right, this is a pretty

876
00:50:11,800 --> 00:50:14,360
Speaker 2: common issue with the Pentagon. You can look back to

877
00:50:14,440 --> 00:50:16,960
Speaker 2: Iraq and the sheer amount of aid that was sent

878
00:50:17,000 --> 00:50:19,080
Speaker 2: to Iraq and then kind of disappeared in the ether

879
00:50:19,239 --> 00:50:23,080
Speaker 2: because they just didn't have anyone paying attention to it. Obviously,

880
00:50:23,360 --> 00:50:27,319
Speaker 2: because that happened under Republican administration. Juliani isn't concerned at

881
00:50:27,360 --> 00:50:29,840
Speaker 2: all about it, but he is deeply concerned about this

882
00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:33,800
Speaker 2: kind of fantastical two hundred billion dollars that he believes

883
00:50:33,800 --> 00:50:38,439
Speaker 2: has been shotgunned out to Ukrainian mobsters. And here's Rudy again.

884
00:50:38,480 --> 00:50:40,759
Speaker 2: As our conversation continued.

885
00:50:40,640 --> 00:50:45,120
Speaker 6: Biden has us consigned to a war without animate in Ukraine.

886
00:50:45,280 --> 00:50:47,480
Speaker 6: He doesn't even dare to suggest an end because he's

887
00:50:47,480 --> 00:50:49,319
Speaker 6: afraid of confrontation with Russia.

888
00:50:49,400 --> 00:50:50,960
Speaker 3: So he's just going to get more people killed.

889
00:50:51,000 --> 00:50:53,600
Speaker 6: I mean, there probably isn't an American president that's that

890
00:50:53,719 --> 00:50:56,400
Speaker 6: more people killed other than an a war than Biden.

891
00:50:56,880 --> 00:50:59,600
Speaker 2: It's interesting you describe it as them not winning, because

892
00:50:59,680 --> 00:51:01,920
Speaker 2: I do have trouble. I know. In the lead up

893
00:51:01,960 --> 00:51:04,960
Speaker 2: to the expanded invasion of February twenty twenty two, the

894
00:51:05,080 --> 00:51:07,800
Speaker 2: expectation from most of the people in our military and

895
00:51:07,800 --> 00:51:10,480
Speaker 2: most people internationally was that the Ukrainian military was going

896
00:51:10,560 --> 00:51:13,080
Speaker 2: to fold in a manner of days. And they're now

897
00:51:13,200 --> 00:51:16,400
Speaker 2: back to about seventeen percent of the country under Russian occupation,

898
00:51:16,480 --> 00:51:19,920
Speaker 2: which isn't a massive escalation over where it was previously

899
00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:23,160
Speaker 2: because they pushed well because they pushed the Russians out

900
00:51:23,200 --> 00:51:23,680
Speaker 2: of Kiev.

901
00:51:24,760 --> 00:51:26,160
Speaker 3: Well, will that end the war?

902
00:51:26,840 --> 00:51:28,120
Speaker 7: Russia can keep seven pay percent.

903
00:51:28,280 --> 00:51:30,360
Speaker 2: I don't think the Ukrainians are willing to send the

904
00:51:30,360 --> 00:51:31,239
Speaker 2: war that woman.

905
00:51:32,719 --> 00:51:35,440
Speaker 6: The war is one when you achieve the objective that

906
00:51:35,440 --> 00:51:38,640
Speaker 6: has you stopped conducting war. They're not even close to them.

907
00:51:39,440 --> 00:51:42,920
Speaker 6: The only way Ukraine says it will stop fighting is

908
00:51:42,960 --> 00:51:46,360
Speaker 6: if Russia is pushed out of Ukraine. They haven't been

909
00:51:46,400 --> 00:51:48,200
Speaker 6: able to do that. So they're not winning the war.

910
00:51:48,280 --> 00:51:52,120
Speaker 6: I mean, nor are they presenting a plan that we're

911
00:51:52,200 --> 00:51:55,640
Speaker 6: funding to do that. We're not planning, we're not funding.

912
00:51:56,800 --> 00:51:59,840
Speaker 6: We're just endlessly giving them money to keep the status quoth.

913
00:52:00,520 --> 00:52:02,680
Speaker 6: We do not have a plan to win them or

914
00:52:02,800 --> 00:52:03,080
Speaker 6: end it.

915
00:52:03,760 --> 00:52:05,279
Speaker 2: So I mean when I.

916
00:52:05,320 --> 00:52:07,880
Speaker 6: Tom Towell used to say, the worst thing about American

917
00:52:07,960 --> 00:52:14,239
Speaker 6: foreign policy under unrealistic, somewhat left leaning liberals is war

918
00:52:14,280 --> 00:52:17,439
Speaker 6: without end. When you go into a war, you've got

919
00:52:17,440 --> 00:52:20,440
Speaker 6: to be willing to commit yourself. You've got to be

920
00:52:20,440 --> 00:52:24,880
Speaker 6: willing to win it quick, otherwise you're gonna lose. You know,

921
00:52:25,040 --> 00:52:28,800
Speaker 6: when we started, when we started losing wars, got this policy,

922
00:52:28,840 --> 00:52:29,640
Speaker 6: we fall.

923
00:52:29,680 --> 00:52:31,960
Speaker 2: But if you if you compare where Ukraine is at

924
00:52:32,040 --> 00:52:34,279
Speaker 2: right now to the wars in the United States has

925
00:52:34,280 --> 00:52:38,480
Speaker 2: gotten involved in in this century. Iraq, you know, around

926
00:52:38,480 --> 00:52:42,319
Speaker 2: a decade or so close to twenty years for Afghanistan.

927
00:52:42,440 --> 00:52:47,520
Speaker 2: Ukraine is two years since the expanded invasion and kind

928
00:52:47,520 --> 00:52:50,759
Speaker 2: of you know war. It's a it's a massive international

929
00:52:50,760 --> 00:52:53,800
Speaker 2: conflict between a much smaller nation and a larger one.

930
00:52:54,160 --> 00:52:56,960
Speaker 2: When I talk to Ukrainians and they I asked them,

931
00:52:56,960 --> 00:52:59,040
Speaker 2: what do you think you need to actually win this?

932
00:52:59,600 --> 00:53:01,640
Speaker 2: One of the things they repeatedly say is the ability

933
00:53:01,680 --> 00:53:03,600
Speaker 2: to strike Russian assets inside Russia.

934
00:53:04,200 --> 00:53:07,759
Speaker 8: Who doesn't give him? Who does? Who? Prem Yeah, I'm

935
00:53:07,760 --> 00:53:08,920
Speaker 8: just one more minutes, we got to go.

936
00:53:09,160 --> 00:53:12,040
Speaker 3: Who prevents that person? Definitely?

937
00:53:12,120 --> 00:53:13,880
Speaker 2: The Biden administration hasn't allowed that.

938
00:53:14,360 --> 00:53:16,279
Speaker 3: He tells us he wants them to win.

939
00:53:16,560 --> 00:53:18,520
Speaker 8: Do you do you think why.

940
00:53:18,200 --> 00:53:22,200
Speaker 2: Would you be supportive under a new Republican administration of

941
00:53:22,239 --> 00:53:24,080
Speaker 2: allowing Ukraine to strike inside Russia?

942
00:53:24,120 --> 00:53:26,560
Speaker 6: I would be supportive of sitting down and having a

943
00:53:26,560 --> 00:53:29,880
Speaker 6: realistic conversation about a plan. First thing I do is

944
00:53:29,920 --> 00:53:30,839
Speaker 6: all that the money we gave.

945
00:53:31,640 --> 00:53:34,880
Speaker 2: Now, of course, Rudy can't support that, so he pivoted

946
00:53:34,920 --> 00:53:37,320
Speaker 2: back to arguing that we need to audit Ukraine to

947
00:53:37,400 --> 00:53:40,200
Speaker 2: quote find out what happened to the money we gave

948
00:53:40,280 --> 00:53:43,960
Speaker 2: him him being Zelensky again, I pointed out that we

949
00:53:44,000 --> 00:53:48,440
Speaker 2: aren't giving him money directly, we're sending over weapons. Nevertheless,

950
00:53:48,760 --> 00:53:52,520
Speaker 2: our conversation continued. Now, the vast majority of the two

951
00:53:52,600 --> 00:53:55,120
Speaker 2: hundred billion that's been sent over, though, is in munitions,

952
00:53:55,120 --> 00:53:59,000
Speaker 2: Like we're not talking about have you have you found

953
00:53:59,040 --> 00:54:02,000
Speaker 2: it in the American industry, but there has been American

954
00:54:02,080 --> 00:54:03,280
Speaker 2: in the American industry.

955
00:54:03,320 --> 00:54:06,080
Speaker 6: You want to defend the American military industrial bumble what

956
00:54:06,160 --> 00:54:07,640
Speaker 6: I want to think there is a lot.

957
00:54:07,480 --> 00:54:09,440
Speaker 7: Of weeks of money in the American It.

958
00:54:09,480 --> 00:54:11,520
Speaker 2: Was very much Well, I'm not concerned about money though,

959
00:54:11,520 --> 00:54:11,920
Speaker 2: because what.

960
00:54:12,160 --> 00:54:14,960
Speaker 6: We have, the money doesn't get to that.

961
00:54:15,040 --> 00:54:18,200
Speaker 2: There's no javelins winding up outside of Ukraine, there's no

962
00:54:18,560 --> 00:54:23,960
Speaker 2: agtms winding up out money. They're they're mostly getting weaponry though,

963
00:54:23,960 --> 00:54:27,400
Speaker 2: they're getting Bradley's, they're getting Abrams tanks, they're.

964
00:54:27,160 --> 00:54:30,440
Speaker 6: Getting been on the market selling those things.

965
00:54:30,520 --> 00:54:31,399
Speaker 2: Where have they sold them?

966
00:54:31,440 --> 00:54:34,320
Speaker 6: They've been caught three times selling selling where selling weapons

967
00:54:34,760 --> 00:54:36,520
Speaker 6: where I'd have to go back and look, they've been

968
00:54:36,560 --> 00:54:39,560
Speaker 6: caught three times selling plus.

969
00:54:39,239 --> 00:54:43,239
Speaker 2: They have Now this was just a lie Ukraine has

970
00:54:43,239 --> 00:54:46,440
Speaker 2: not been caught selling US weapons. Rudy only claims they

971
00:54:46,520 --> 00:54:49,200
Speaker 2: have been because he's consumed a huge amount of Krimlin

972
00:54:49,239 --> 00:54:52,239
Speaker 2: funded media that has been arguing since twenty twenty two

973
00:54:52,360 --> 00:54:54,839
Speaker 2: that US weapons sent to Ukraine will end up on

974
00:54:54,880 --> 00:54:58,319
Speaker 2: the black market. There's no outside evidence that shows that

975
00:54:58,360 --> 00:55:01,520
Speaker 2: this has happened, and in fact is yusuf. A research

976
00:55:01,560 --> 00:55:04,960
Speaker 2: analyst for the security think tank the Stimson Center recently

977
00:55:05,000 --> 00:55:08,719
Speaker 2: told Business Insider, I don't think we've seen any real diversion,

978
00:55:08,880 --> 00:55:13,960
Speaker 2: particularly outside the country of weapons. That article continues. Pro

979
00:55:14,040 --> 00:55:17,200
Speaker 2: Russian media has aired similar claims of a massed diversion

980
00:55:17,239 --> 00:55:19,840
Speaker 2: of arms meant for the front line, some citing a

981
00:55:19,880 --> 00:55:23,400
Speaker 2: retracted CBS report that included a source claiming only thirty

982
00:55:23,400 --> 00:55:26,359
Speaker 2: percent of weapons sent to Ukraine made it to the battlefield.

983
00:55:26,800 --> 00:55:31,480
Speaker 2: One conspiracy Inclined website, purportedly citing anonymous Ukrainians, claimed the

984
00:55:31,520 --> 00:55:34,279
Speaker 2: weapons are stolen to such a degree that Ukraine as

985
00:55:34,280 --> 00:55:36,840
Speaker 2: of August had already lost the war because of the

986
00:55:36,880 --> 00:55:40,560
Speaker 2: black market diversion. Now, in the months since that claim

987
00:55:40,640 --> 00:55:42,960
Speaker 2: was made that Ukraine had lost the war because they

988
00:55:42,960 --> 00:55:45,239
Speaker 2: had given up all of their weapons. They took a

989
00:55:45,280 --> 00:55:48,520
Speaker 2: bunch of those weapons and invaded Russia, punching a hole

990
00:55:48,560 --> 00:55:51,520
Speaker 2: through their lines and taking a considerable amount of territory

991
00:55:51,600 --> 00:55:55,719
Speaker 2: in the Kursk region, which they occupy to an extent today.

992
00:55:56,320 --> 00:55:59,440
Speaker 2: As is always the case with guys like Julian, reality

993
00:55:59,480 --> 00:56:02,720
Speaker 2: doesn't matter here. It's about repeating the same talking points

994
00:56:02,800 --> 00:56:05,160
Speaker 2: until you get a journalist ignorant enough to take them

995
00:56:05,200 --> 00:56:07,279
Speaker 2: as true. And it's the kind of thing where if

996
00:56:07,320 --> 00:56:09,759
Speaker 2: you're not up on all of the different claims being

997
00:56:09,800 --> 00:56:11,760
Speaker 2: made on the right and all of the claims about

998
00:56:12,200 --> 00:56:16,680
Speaker 2: corruption and money being siphoned off and taken by mobsters,

999
00:56:17,040 --> 00:56:19,120
Speaker 2: then you're not going to be able to properly argue

1000
00:56:19,120 --> 00:56:21,480
Speaker 2: with them, right Like, if you don't really know what

1001
00:56:21,520 --> 00:56:24,200
Speaker 2: you're talking about, you might seed the point to Juliani

1002
00:56:24,280 --> 00:56:26,400
Speaker 2: that there have been at least three cases of the

1003
00:56:26,480 --> 00:56:30,440
Speaker 2: Ukrainians caught selling American weapons overseas. Now, when you look

1004
00:56:30,480 --> 00:56:32,359
Speaker 2: into what you see that this is primarily a claim

1005
00:56:32,400 --> 00:56:34,719
Speaker 2: that spreads on right wing Facebook pages and there's not

1006
00:56:34,800 --> 00:56:38,200
Speaker 2: really any evidence of a sizable diversion. But that doesn't

1007
00:56:38,200 --> 00:56:41,239
Speaker 2: really matter. What matters is in the moment, being able

1008
00:56:41,280 --> 00:56:44,040
Speaker 2: to kind of spread a point out to the extent

1009
00:56:44,080 --> 00:56:46,080
Speaker 2: that nobody really questions you want it.

1010
00:56:46,200 --> 00:56:47,160
Speaker 3: And I don't know.

1011
00:56:48,000 --> 00:56:50,759
Speaker 2: It's the kind of thing that happens a lot in politics,

1012
00:56:50,880 --> 00:56:53,719
Speaker 2: and it's the kind of thing that is probably pointless

1013
00:56:53,800 --> 00:56:56,719
Speaker 2: to really address, right Like me arguing with Rudy Giuliani

1014
00:56:56,800 --> 00:56:59,359
Speaker 2: got him hot and flustered and kind of pissed off,

1015
00:56:59,400 --> 00:57:03,319
Speaker 2: and certainly me frustrated. But I don't think it accomplished much.

1016
00:57:03,360 --> 00:57:06,200
Speaker 2: And I really I think kind of the thing that

1017
00:57:06,239 --> 00:57:08,640
Speaker 2: you have to accept when you're looking at sort of

1018
00:57:08,719 --> 00:57:11,719
Speaker 2: right wing lies about what's happening in Ukraine or the

1019
00:57:11,760 --> 00:57:14,920
Speaker 2: lies being told right now about you know, Springfield, Ohio

1020
00:57:15,040 --> 00:57:18,360
Speaker 2: and the Haitian migrant population over there, there's really a

1021
00:57:18,480 --> 00:57:22,400
Speaker 2: very little point in actually confronting these people directly about

1022
00:57:22,480 --> 00:57:26,320
Speaker 2: the disinformation that they put out, because it's not really

1023
00:57:26,640 --> 00:57:28,960
Speaker 2: a case where they care about the truth one way

1024
00:57:29,040 --> 00:57:32,120
Speaker 2: or the other. It's a matter of you've kind of

1025
00:57:32,200 --> 00:57:36,280
Speaker 2: lost the fight if you care at all about trying

1026
00:57:36,320 --> 00:57:39,240
Speaker 2: to prove reality to them, you know. And that's kind

1027
00:57:39,280 --> 00:57:42,600
Speaker 2: of a bummer note to end this on. But I

1028
00:57:42,600 --> 00:57:45,880
Speaker 2: guess I don't really have anything optimistic to say. I

1029
00:57:46,000 --> 00:57:48,600
Speaker 2: just thought you'd be interested in my little conversation with

1030
00:57:48,680 --> 00:57:52,400
Speaker 2: Rudy Giuliani and some of the talking points that are

1031
00:57:52,520 --> 00:57:54,920
Speaker 2: continuing to spread up along the right. So you know,

1032
00:57:54,960 --> 00:57:57,120
Speaker 2: at the very least, maybe the next time you wind

1033
00:57:57,200 --> 00:58:00,760
Speaker 2: up in an argument this Thanksgiving with your uncle Ukraine,

1034
00:58:01,240 --> 00:58:03,800
Speaker 2: you'll be kind of wary for some of the arguments

1035
00:58:03,800 --> 00:58:05,960
Speaker 2: he's going to bring out, you know, to the extent

1036
00:58:06,000 --> 00:58:09,480
Speaker 2: that that does anybody any good until next time. I'm

1037
00:58:09,520 --> 00:58:12,640
Speaker 2: Robert Evans and this is It Could Happen Here. If

1038
00:58:12,680 --> 00:58:14,880
Speaker 2: you want to see these sources for this episode and

1039
00:58:14,880 --> 00:58:17,560
Speaker 2: do some reading yourself, they're in the show notes, so

1040
00:58:17,680 --> 00:58:40,440
Speaker 2: just check them out there and we will be back tomorrow.

1041
00:58:40,480 --> 00:58:43,600
Speaker 9: Welcome to It Could Happen Here. My name is Garrison Davis.

1042
00:58:43,720 --> 00:58:46,320
Speaker 9: I am joined by James Stout and Nia Wong to

1043
00:58:46,400 --> 00:58:49,560
Speaker 9: talk about some of our favorite people to hate, the

1044
00:58:49,600 --> 00:58:50,760
Speaker 9: Heritage Foundation.

1045
00:58:50,920 --> 00:58:52,800
Speaker 3: Hello everybody, Hi Garrison.

1046
00:58:53,200 --> 00:58:55,840
Speaker 4: Hello, Oh god, I got brought in talked with the

1047
00:58:55,880 --> 00:58:56,840
Speaker 4: Heritage Foundation.

1048
00:58:57,120 --> 00:58:59,640
Speaker 3: Oh no, what a week? What a week?

1049
00:59:00,320 --> 00:59:02,840
Speaker 9: So I mean, people have been talking a lot about

1050
00:59:02,880 --> 00:59:06,200
Speaker 9: the Heritage Foundations Project twenty twenty five because it is

1051
00:59:06,480 --> 00:59:10,360
Speaker 9: a massive, massive document that is honestly too long to

1052
00:59:10,400 --> 00:59:14,440
Speaker 9: actually read, but it does it does focus on LGBTQ

1053
00:59:14,680 --> 00:59:17,840
Speaker 9: issues for a decent a decent chunk of the book,

1054
00:59:18,040 --> 00:59:22,120
Speaker 9: mainly finding different ways to both legalize and protect discrimination

1055
00:59:23,080 --> 00:59:28,120
Speaker 9: against LGBTQ people and like banning the public presence of

1056
00:59:28,200 --> 00:59:34,480
Speaker 9: LGBTQ materials deemed deemed pornographic in public life, especially schools, libraries,

1057
00:59:34,840 --> 00:59:35,240
Speaker 9: all that.

1058
00:59:35,200 --> 00:59:35,760
Speaker 3: Kind of stuff.

1059
00:59:35,880 --> 00:59:39,280
Speaker 9: Right, It's kind of this this nationwide don't say gay

1060
00:59:39,280 --> 00:59:44,520
Speaker 9: bill type thing, along with legalizing and protecting people's people's

1061
00:59:44,600 --> 00:59:49,200
Speaker 9: right to discriminate against for people. So that's kind of

1062
00:59:50,320 --> 00:59:53,200
Speaker 9: the bulk of the of the of the tactics that

1063
00:59:53,240 --> 00:59:56,919
Speaker 9: are laid out in the Heritage Foundation's Project twenty twenty five.

1064
00:59:57,160 --> 00:59:59,000
Speaker 9: But Trump and a whole bunch of Republicans have been

1065
00:59:59,040 --> 01:00:02,320
Speaker 9: doing a lot of work to distance themselves from this document.

1066
01:00:02,880 --> 01:00:05,120
Speaker 9: At the RNC, I was kind of surprised that, like,

1067
01:00:05,400 --> 01:00:07,720
Speaker 9: I did not hear a single, a single mention of

1068
01:00:07,760 --> 01:00:10,080
Speaker 9: Project twenty twenty five unless I was the one to

1069
01:00:10,120 --> 01:00:11,840
Speaker 9: bring it up when talking with people.

1070
01:00:12,240 --> 01:00:12,640
Speaker 3: They didn't.

1071
01:00:12,640 --> 01:00:14,160
Speaker 9: They didn't like talking about it because they know it's

1072
01:00:14,240 --> 01:00:17,520
Speaker 9: kind of just like this toxic thing now. They kind

1073
01:00:17,720 --> 01:00:20,360
Speaker 9: they kind of showed their power level to use to

1074
01:00:20,440 --> 01:00:22,480
Speaker 9: use an ancient phrase.

1075
01:00:22,640 --> 01:00:24,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, who could possibly have guessed for the document where

1076
01:00:24,960 --> 01:00:27,439
Speaker 4: they talk about bringing back the gold standard was going

1077
01:00:27,440 --> 01:00:30,760
Speaker 4: to be unpopular with literally everyone, including their own base.

1078
01:00:31,040 --> 01:00:33,480
Speaker 9: Yeah, I mean, I don't think that's the reason why

1079
01:00:33,520 --> 01:00:36,360
Speaker 9: it's unpopular. I think it's all of like the dictator

1080
01:00:36,480 --> 01:00:40,720
Speaker 9: fascism stuff. But the gold standard bit's pretty funny. Even

1081
01:00:40,800 --> 01:00:44,240
Speaker 9: at the Heritage Foundation booth, not a peep about Project

1082
01:00:44,280 --> 01:00:46,840
Speaker 9: twenty twenty five. It's like the biggest thing they've done

1083
01:00:46,880 --> 01:00:49,320
Speaker 9: in like the in the last decade, arguably not a

1084
01:00:49,360 --> 01:00:52,960
Speaker 9: single peep. But they did have a whole bunch of

1085
01:00:53,160 --> 01:00:56,880
Speaker 9: other like merch, a whole bunch of little pamphlets, papers.

1086
01:00:56,920 --> 01:00:59,600
Speaker 9: I love papers. I love little documents, some little ephemera

1087
01:01:00,080 --> 01:01:03,120
Speaker 9: to de femera. Yeah, I love collecting all this little stuff.

1088
01:01:03,120 --> 01:01:04,880
Speaker 9: And it just sits on a pile on my desk

1089
01:01:05,000 --> 01:01:07,600
Speaker 9: for like, way too long. And in this case, it's

1090
01:01:07,600 --> 01:01:09,640
Speaker 9: set on a pile on my desk for about two

1091
01:01:09,640 --> 01:01:12,600
Speaker 9: months and the pile became too big and too unruly.

1092
01:01:13,120 --> 01:01:15,120
Speaker 9: And now we're going to actually go through the pile

1093
01:01:15,160 --> 01:01:19,040
Speaker 9: of stuff, right and talk about the types of things

1094
01:01:19,080 --> 01:01:22,600
Speaker 9: that the Heritage Foundation actually did have out on their table,

1095
01:01:22,680 --> 01:01:27,760
Speaker 9: specifically relating to gender identity. Oh good, which is their

1096
01:01:27,920 --> 01:01:32,240
Speaker 9: term of choice for these issues. Now, like gender identity

1097
01:01:32,320 --> 01:01:37,480
Speaker 9: quote unquote transgenderism were frequent talking points at the Republican

1098
01:01:37,520 --> 01:01:40,280
Speaker 9: National Convention, way more so than the Democratic National Convention,

1099
01:01:40,360 --> 01:01:43,400
Speaker 9: in which they were kind of just brushed aside as

1100
01:01:43,400 --> 01:01:46,080
Speaker 9: a political inconvenience. But at the R and C these

1101
01:01:46,080 --> 01:01:48,960
Speaker 9: things were front and center. Almost every single person giving

1102
01:01:48,960 --> 01:01:52,360
Speaker 9: a speech on the main stage at least name dropped

1103
01:01:52,560 --> 01:01:56,680
Speaker 9: gender ideology in some way to receive thunderous applause from

1104
01:01:56,680 --> 01:01:59,960
Speaker 9: the crowd. So it certainly was a very common topic

1105
01:02:00,040 --> 01:02:03,080
Speaker 9: brought up. And here's what the actual literature that was

1106
01:02:03,120 --> 01:02:05,560
Speaker 9: proliferating at the event had to say about it.

1107
01:02:06,000 --> 01:02:07,200
Speaker 3: So let's let's start.

1108
01:02:07,240 --> 01:02:10,640
Speaker 9: Let's start penphlet number one, how to speak up about

1109
01:02:10,680 --> 01:02:15,640
Speaker 9: gender identity, questions and answers driving the debate, So it's

1110
01:02:15,640 --> 01:02:18,400
Speaker 9: a debate, is the first thing we want we need

1111
01:02:18,440 --> 01:02:23,200
Speaker 9: to know about gender identity? Again, I'm not just reading

1112
01:02:23,240 --> 01:02:25,640
Speaker 9: out all of their propaganda. I think there is some

1113
01:02:25,880 --> 01:02:28,560
Speaker 9: use in actually learning what they're saying in like their

1114
01:02:28,560 --> 01:02:33,200
Speaker 9: biggest convention and then actually not like debunking, because like,

1115
01:02:33,560 --> 01:02:36,080
Speaker 9: come on, I know who our audience is. But at

1116
01:02:36,160 --> 01:02:38,920
Speaker 9: least actually laying out what they're saying and how it

1117
01:02:38,960 --> 01:02:41,760
Speaker 9: relates to like the actual information I think does does

1118
01:02:41,800 --> 01:02:44,360
Speaker 9: have sub use. So I will I will be quoting

1119
01:02:44,360 --> 01:02:47,560
Speaker 9: from the Heritage Foundation saying some pretty stupid things, but

1120
01:02:47,640 --> 01:02:50,840
Speaker 9: then we will kind of springboard discussion, and I do

1121
01:02:50,920 --> 01:02:54,600
Speaker 9: have some some little fact checks on some of the

1122
01:02:54,880 --> 01:02:57,200
Speaker 9: like these very common lies that you're now seeing like

1123
01:02:57,400 --> 01:02:59,720
Speaker 9: get repeated so often you may be trying to be

1124
01:02:59,760 --> 01:03:02,560
Speaker 9: tricked into thinking that they are real. So we're going

1125
01:03:02,600 --> 01:03:06,040
Speaker 9: to tackle the quote unquote the big questions. What are sex,

1126
01:03:06,200 --> 01:03:09,520
Speaker 9: gender and gender identity. I'm sure this five page pamphlet

1127
01:03:09,720 --> 01:03:11,320
Speaker 9: will tell me all I need to know about the

1128
01:03:11,360 --> 01:03:14,360
Speaker 9: topics of what our sex, gender, gender identity.

1129
01:03:14,800 --> 01:03:16,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, I can't wait to learn they figured it out,

1130
01:03:16,960 --> 01:03:17,800
Speaker 3: They figured it out.

1131
01:03:17,960 --> 01:03:23,760
Speaker 9: There's this centuries long discussions have been haven't resolved. What

1132
01:03:23,800 --> 01:03:27,080
Speaker 9: do gender dysporia and transgender mean? And how do gender

1133
01:03:27,120 --> 01:03:31,080
Speaker 9: identity policies affect me and my community? I think this

1134
01:03:31,200 --> 01:03:34,080
Speaker 9: is largely targeted towards like I mean, it's turned towards

1135
01:03:34,120 --> 01:03:36,880
Speaker 9: people at the RNC, so like people in like their sixties,

1136
01:03:36,920 --> 01:03:37,960
Speaker 9: like like grandparents.

1137
01:03:38,160 --> 01:03:39,959
Speaker 10: Yeah, is this so how to talk to your friend

1138
01:03:40,000 --> 01:03:41,960
Speaker 10: about the transgenders.

1139
01:03:41,240 --> 01:03:45,320
Speaker 9: But kind of kind of it's more so like, oh no,

1140
01:03:45,880 --> 01:03:51,720
Speaker 9: your grandkids are maybe a little gay with it, grandchild?

1141
01:03:52,040 --> 01:03:55,080
Speaker 9: Exactly what does that mean? What is that about? I

1142
01:03:55,080 --> 01:03:58,560
Speaker 9: think that's kind of what the main the main demographic is. Okay, anyway,

1143
01:03:58,600 --> 01:04:02,520
Speaker 9: here we go. The common understanding that there are only

1144
01:04:02,560 --> 01:04:06,080
Speaker 9: two sexes and human beings male and female, determined by

1145
01:04:06,120 --> 01:04:09,640
Speaker 9: each person's biology, has been the cultural norm and the

1146
01:04:09,680 --> 01:04:14,640
Speaker 9: basis for our laws since our nation's founding it, though,

1147
01:04:14,800 --> 01:04:16,240
Speaker 9: has it that's a good question.

1148
01:04:16,440 --> 01:04:18,040
Speaker 10: I'm not going to do this because I go fund

1149
01:04:18,040 --> 01:04:20,200
Speaker 10: will take fucking an hour, but this isn't true.

1150
01:04:20,400 --> 01:04:23,520
Speaker 9: It will and obviously they're not going to mention intersex people.

1151
01:04:23,520 --> 01:04:25,600
Speaker 9: They're not going to mention any any of that stuff.

1152
01:04:25,680 --> 01:04:30,200
Speaker 10: Yeah, or that like every indigenous culture has multiple gender words.

1153
01:04:30,320 --> 01:04:32,080
Speaker 3: Yeah no, no, no, no, we'll just leave that out.

1154
01:04:32,160 --> 01:04:35,360
Speaker 9: Because only recently have we seen a shift away from

1155
01:04:35,360 --> 01:04:41,800
Speaker 9: this objective and scientific no citation understanding towards an ideology

1156
01:04:41,840 --> 01:04:44,800
Speaker 9: that says a person's gender is determined by what they

1157
01:04:44,880 --> 01:04:49,760
Speaker 9: believe they are parenthesis gender identity rather than their biological sex,

1158
01:04:50,080 --> 01:04:54,800
Speaker 9: and should be legally recognized. The transgender movement has rapidly

1159
01:04:54,920 --> 01:05:00,120
Speaker 9: advanced laws and policies that give special rights and protections

1160
01:05:00,160 --> 01:05:06,080
Speaker 9: to some people while infringing on the rights of others. Now,

1161
01:05:06,120 --> 01:05:08,000
Speaker 9: this is this is a talking point that was brought

1162
01:05:08,040 --> 01:05:10,640
Speaker 9: up a lot when I was a kid around trans people.

1163
01:05:10,720 --> 01:05:14,080
Speaker 9: How they have special laws that give them more rights

1164
01:05:14,080 --> 01:05:16,800
Speaker 9: than your average person. And that's why, like a good

1165
01:05:16,880 --> 01:05:20,200
Speaker 9: like conservative basis should be opposed to them, even if

1166
01:05:20,240 --> 01:05:23,080
Speaker 9: you're like, you know, an accepting you may not like

1167
01:05:23,120 --> 01:05:24,840
Speaker 9: agree with them, but you're not going to kill them,

1168
01:05:25,280 --> 01:05:29,080
Speaker 9: but they shouldn't have like extra rights. That was that

1169
01:05:29,160 --> 01:05:33,000
Speaker 9: was a big thing, is framing things that either protect

1170
01:05:33,040 --> 01:05:36,160
Speaker 9: trans people from discrimination or framing things that ensure their

1171
01:05:36,200 --> 01:05:39,000
Speaker 9: healthcare as like special extra rights not provided to like

1172
01:05:39,080 --> 01:05:41,080
Speaker 9: regular regular Americans.

1173
01:05:41,480 --> 01:05:43,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, this is like a huge thing with just the

1174
01:05:43,560 --> 01:05:46,680
Speaker 4: basis of all political conservatism is they all believe that,

1175
01:05:46,880 --> 01:05:49,600
Speaker 4: like like they all believe that immigrants have like a

1176
01:05:49,680 --> 01:05:52,440
Speaker 4: secret healthcare system that they have access to, and that

1177
01:05:52,520 --> 01:05:54,720
Speaker 4: like black people have like welfare, and that like indigenous

1178
01:05:54,720 --> 01:05:56,360
Speaker 4: people get into schools for free.

1179
01:05:56,400 --> 01:05:59,680
Speaker 10: And it's just like yep, no, it's all based on

1180
01:05:59,760 --> 01:06:01,680
Speaker 10: never talking to anyone who isn't like you.

1181
01:06:01,960 --> 01:06:02,720
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1182
01:06:02,800 --> 01:06:07,560
Speaker 9: In addressing the conflicts that emerge. In addressing the conflicts that.

1183
01:06:07,560 --> 01:06:08,960
Speaker 3: Emerge, what are you talking about?

1184
01:06:10,600 --> 01:06:15,280
Speaker 9: The government must protect everyone's rights and fundamental freedoms. The

1185
01:06:15,320 --> 01:06:19,680
Speaker 9: introduction of the concept of gender identity into recent legislation

1186
01:06:20,040 --> 01:06:24,360
Speaker 9: raises concerns about privacy, safety, fairness, liberty, and its impact

1187
01:06:24,400 --> 01:06:29,160
Speaker 9: on children. It threatens the freedom of religion and conscience.

1188
01:06:30,400 --> 01:06:35,520
Speaker 3: What the freedom of conscience? What does that mean?

1189
01:06:37,200 --> 01:06:41,320
Speaker 9: Because it's not just a religious objection. My conscience tells

1190
01:06:41,400 --> 01:06:45,160
Speaker 9: me that trans people are icky, tells me I should

1191
01:06:45,200 --> 01:06:46,960
Speaker 9: have this person's house. Does that let me have it?

1192
01:06:47,560 --> 01:06:48,880
Speaker 3: I mean it should yeah.

1193
01:06:49,040 --> 01:06:50,800
Speaker 10: Yeah, yeah, My conscience tells me a whole lot of shit.

1194
01:06:51,680 --> 01:06:54,960
Speaker 10: It means you can't not like trans people. The government's

1195
01:06:55,000 --> 01:06:56,760
Speaker 10: going to come for you if you don't like trans people.

1196
01:06:56,880 --> 01:06:57,520
Speaker 10: Is that what they mean?

1197
01:06:57,720 --> 01:07:00,720
Speaker 9: I think they are legitimately scared of that. Yeah. But

1198
01:07:00,840 --> 01:07:05,400
Speaker 9: it also threatens freedom of speech, equal protection, and parental rights.

1199
01:07:05,960 --> 01:07:09,880
Speaker 9: This radical redefinition of sex could dramatically alter our society,

1200
01:07:10,080 --> 01:07:15,120
Speaker 9: creating significant disadvantages for some, particularly women and girls. Okay,

1201
01:07:15,160 --> 01:07:17,520
Speaker 9: all right, so there we go. That's that's that is.

1202
01:07:17,600 --> 01:07:22,959
Speaker 9: That is the introduction. Now onto page two. All individuals

1203
01:07:23,000 --> 01:07:26,480
Speaker 9: have human dignity and should be treated with respect citation needed,

1204
01:07:28,640 --> 01:07:33,280
Speaker 9: including those who identify as transgender and knowe. They're very

1205
01:07:33,280 --> 01:07:36,920
Speaker 9: careful to never actually say trans people are transgender people.

1206
01:07:37,080 --> 01:07:41,360
Speaker 9: There's people who identify transgender, and there's there's transgender activists

1207
01:07:41,680 --> 01:07:45,920
Speaker 9: and gender ideology activists. They take great care to never

1208
01:07:45,960 --> 01:07:49,800
Speaker 9: actually say trans people are doing this. They say transactivists

1209
01:07:49,840 --> 01:07:53,240
Speaker 9: are doing this increases degree of separation. That that's one

1210
01:07:53,320 --> 01:07:56,600
Speaker 9: kind of a little rhetorical tactic that I noticed when

1211
01:07:56,600 --> 01:07:57,360
Speaker 9: first looking through this.

1212
01:07:57,720 --> 01:07:59,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think there's this also kind of a lake

1213
01:08:00,200 --> 01:08:03,440
Speaker 4: see of this sort of trans tipping point and how

1214
01:08:03,680 --> 01:08:06,360
Speaker 4: accepted things had gotten. We're like, I remember this with

1215
01:08:06,440 --> 01:08:09,640
Speaker 4: like Alex Jones in like like even like twenty twenty two,

1216
01:08:09,760 --> 01:08:11,840
Speaker 4: twenty twenty three would say, like the most transphobic thing

1217
01:08:11,880 --> 01:08:15,080
Speaker 4: you've ever heard, but it would be prefaced with some

1218
01:08:15,280 --> 01:08:16,719
Speaker 4: trans people or fine people.

1219
01:08:16,760 --> 01:08:17,439
Speaker 3: I don't mean this.

1220
01:08:17,439 --> 01:08:22,280
Speaker 9: Toage people then say like, yeah, coming to rape your

1221
01:08:22,280 --> 01:08:23,240
Speaker 9: dog or something.

1222
01:08:23,600 --> 01:08:25,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, anyway.

1223
01:08:26,000 --> 01:08:31,360
Speaker 9: But by labeling realistic concerns and scientific objections as oppressive,

1224
01:08:32,080 --> 01:08:37,320
Speaker 9: transgender activists have shut down open, robust dialogue over the

1225
01:08:37,360 --> 01:08:41,719
Speaker 9: consequences of gender ideology and gender identity policies. The serious

1226
01:08:41,800 --> 01:08:45,160
Speaker 9: real world effects of gender identity policies on individuals and

1227
01:08:45,160 --> 01:08:49,479
Speaker 9: communities must be taken into consideration. Many treatments promoted by

1228
01:08:49,560 --> 01:08:55,040
Speaker 9: transgender activists are untested, can cause serious side effects and

1229
01:08:55,120 --> 01:08:59,720
Speaker 9: come with irreversible developmental consequences when performed on children. So

1230
01:08:59,840 --> 01:09:02,800
Speaker 9: this is my first kind of pause, because this is

1231
01:09:02,840 --> 01:09:05,240
Speaker 9: a claim that we've been seeing, i would say, at

1232
01:09:05,240 --> 01:09:07,960
Speaker 9: an increasing rate ever since Matt Walsh's documentary. This was

1233
01:09:08,000 --> 01:09:10,160
Speaker 9: like one thing that he really tried to like invent

1234
01:09:10,840 --> 01:09:15,640
Speaker 9: specifically that like quote unquote like puberty blockers cause like sterilization.

1235
01:09:16,120 --> 01:09:18,959
Speaker 9: I'm like, yeah, you can't reproduce when you're on them, obviously,

1236
01:09:19,040 --> 01:09:21,400
Speaker 9: but you can when you go off them. But that's

1237
01:09:21,400 --> 01:09:23,640
Speaker 9: something that like they never talk about. They frame it

1238
01:09:23,680 --> 01:09:28,400
Speaker 9: as like this permanent thing. Samantha Rosenthal has an opendent

1239
01:09:28,400 --> 01:09:30,600
Speaker 9: piece in the La Times that talks about like the

1240
01:09:30,720 --> 01:09:33,559
Speaker 9: very long history of trans healthcare in the United States.

1241
01:09:33,840 --> 01:09:37,000
Speaker 9: Modern trans healthcare goes back to the nineteen sixties, and

1242
01:09:37,120 --> 01:09:39,920
Speaker 9: hormone therapy has been used to assist cisgender children in

1243
01:09:39,960 --> 01:09:42,960
Speaker 9: puberty since at least the nineteen forties. These these things

1244
01:09:43,000 --> 01:09:45,599
Speaker 9: are not untested, These are medical practices with a long

1245
01:09:45,720 --> 01:09:49,640
Speaker 9: history and saying that there's there's irreversible developmental consequences when

1246
01:09:49,640 --> 01:09:53,120
Speaker 9: performed on children, Like the FDA approved hormone blockers for

1247
01:09:53,200 --> 01:09:56,400
Speaker 9: children back in nineteen ninety three. We have been using

1248
01:09:56,400 --> 01:09:59,240
Speaker 9: these for for quite a long time, and these false

1249
01:09:59,240 --> 01:10:02,760
Speaker 9: claims are actually seeing some like significant harm. I'm gonna

1250
01:10:02,880 --> 01:10:04,200
Speaker 9: quote from ABC News here.

1251
01:10:04,400 --> 01:10:04,839
Speaker 3: Quote.

1252
01:10:05,280 --> 01:10:08,080
Speaker 9: England's National Health Service has banned the use of puberty

1253
01:10:08,080 --> 01:10:10,200
Speaker 9: blockers for the treatment of gendernus for you, or gender

1254
01:10:10,280 --> 01:10:13,920
Speaker 9: incongruence in transgender minors. The NHS has not stated it

1255
01:10:13,960 --> 01:10:17,160
Speaker 9: will restrict puberty blockers for non transgender children and young people.

1256
01:10:17,280 --> 01:10:20,280
Speaker 9: An NHS spokesperson told ABC News the agency hopes to

1257
01:10:20,280 --> 01:10:22,120
Speaker 9: have a study into the use of puberty blockers in

1258
01:10:22,160 --> 01:10:25,160
Speaker 9: place by December of this year, with eligibility criteria yet

1259
01:10:25,160 --> 01:10:27,960
Speaker 9: to be decided unquote. So they are just like starting

1260
01:10:28,000 --> 01:10:30,000
Speaker 9: to ban these, and of course we've seen this in

1261
01:10:30,120 --> 01:10:32,080
Speaker 9: the United States as well, but this is like the

1262
01:10:32,160 --> 01:10:34,400
Speaker 9: National Health Service, this is like a really a really

1263
01:10:34,400 --> 01:10:38,479
Speaker 9: big organization that's only banning it for trans people, not

1264
01:10:38,640 --> 01:10:39,759
Speaker 9: versus gender children.

1265
01:10:40,360 --> 01:10:40,559
Speaker 6: Yep.

1266
01:10:41,120 --> 01:10:42,800
Speaker 3: So like it's really devastating.

1267
01:10:43,400 --> 01:10:46,040
Speaker 4: I think it's important to note too, that this is

1268
01:10:46,200 --> 01:10:49,280
Speaker 4: the exact one of the exact same lines that anti

1269
01:10:49,320 --> 01:10:52,200
Speaker 4: vaxxers use, and you know that's anti vax campaigns have

1270
01:10:52,280 --> 01:10:55,240
Speaker 4: been a lot of those sort of model for how

1271
01:10:55,400 --> 01:10:57,200
Speaker 4: how attax and transalth care works. But like, yeah, this

1272
01:10:57,479 --> 01:10:59,880
Speaker 4: is this is literally the lie that these same people

1273
01:11:00,160 --> 01:11:02,919
Speaker 4: we'll say about vaccines. It's like, oh, the RNA vaccine

1274
01:11:03,000 --> 01:11:05,360
Speaker 4: is like an untested Yeah, yeah.

1275
01:11:05,640 --> 01:11:08,759
Speaker 3: We tested it a motion of the population and everyone's fine.

1276
01:11:08,880 --> 01:11:12,799
Speaker 10: So you know, I did a clinical trial for COVID

1277
01:11:12,880 --> 01:11:16,040
Speaker 10: vaccines before they were really suited thousands of other people.

1278
01:11:16,120 --> 01:11:16,920
Speaker 4: Yeah no.

1279
01:11:17,040 --> 01:11:20,400
Speaker 9: And in terms of puberty blockers, these have been used

1280
01:11:20,400 --> 01:11:23,000
Speaker 9: and tested for decades. Like these are not a new technology.

1281
01:11:23,040 --> 01:11:25,280
Speaker 4: It's even funnier because again it's like, well, well, okay,

1282
01:11:25,320 --> 01:11:27,920
Speaker 4: so like we will give them to CIS children.

1283
01:11:31,160 --> 01:11:31,960
Speaker 3: End with this stuff.

1284
01:11:32,479 --> 01:11:34,400
Speaker 9: It shows I think it is I'm I read one

1285
01:11:34,439 --> 01:11:37,799
Speaker 9: other quote from a SABC article quote The Endocrine Society

1286
01:11:37,800 --> 01:11:41,680
Speaker 9: and a national organization of more than eighteen thousand endercronologists,

1287
01:11:41,880 --> 01:11:45,759
Speaker 9: calls the medication quote unquote fully reversible. Once blockers are stopped,

1288
01:11:45,800 --> 01:11:48,639
Speaker 9: puberty continues with little to no proven side effects. According

1289
01:11:48,640 --> 01:11:51,639
Speaker 9: to health professionals, unquote. And there was a recent study

1290
01:11:51,640 --> 01:11:54,800
Speaker 9: in twenty twenty two in the journal Jama which found

1291
01:11:54,840 --> 01:11:57,280
Speaker 9: the use of puberty blocking drugs did not lead to

1292
01:11:57,320 --> 01:12:01,240
Speaker 9: an increased chance of receiving gender affirmat therapy in the future,

1293
01:12:01,360 --> 01:12:04,960
Speaker 9: and actually we're slightly less likely to given the extra

1294
01:12:05,040 --> 01:12:07,439
Speaker 9: time to explore gender in the body without the onset

1295
01:12:07,520 --> 01:12:12,080
Speaker 9: of irreversible effects of puberty. Possible bone density losses largely

1296
01:12:12,120 --> 01:12:15,320
Speaker 9: remediated upon the presence of sex hormones, whether from either

1297
01:12:15,400 --> 01:12:19,000
Speaker 9: just ceasing the blockers or starting HRT. And this study

1298
01:12:19,000 --> 01:12:22,000
Speaker 9: also says at the end that perhaps we should just

1299
01:12:22,000 --> 01:12:25,200
Speaker 9: stop using the term puberty blocker, because it makes it

1300
01:12:25,200 --> 01:12:28,000
Speaker 9: sound like it just completely blocks puberty, like from ever happening,

1301
01:12:28,040 --> 01:12:31,400
Speaker 9: Like it just is like now you don't go through puberty. Yeah,

1302
01:12:32,000 --> 01:12:34,400
Speaker 9: And instead opts to say, like, maybe we should just

1303
01:12:34,760 --> 01:12:38,439
Speaker 9: describe what the drug does mechanistically and clinically, because maybe

1304
01:12:38,439 --> 01:12:41,720
Speaker 9: maybe puberty blockers is just a it implies something more

1305
01:12:41,760 --> 01:12:44,519
Speaker 9: than what the drug actually like does temporarily. Yeah. So

1306
01:12:45,240 --> 01:12:47,720
Speaker 9: I found that to be an interesting note. And the

1307
01:12:47,960 --> 01:12:50,280
Speaker 9: whole point of and this something we'll probably talk about later.

1308
01:12:50,280 --> 01:12:52,280
Speaker 9: The whole point of this drug is so that you

1309
01:12:52,320 --> 01:12:55,719
Speaker 9: can have more time to actually decide what you want

1310
01:12:55,720 --> 01:12:58,479
Speaker 9: to do with your body and your gender. And most

1311
01:12:58,520 --> 01:13:02,080
Speaker 9: people that do go on on blockers, with whether SIS

1312
01:13:02,160 --> 01:13:06,160
Speaker 9: or not, are doing it to prevent irreversible changes from huberty,

1313
01:13:06,720 --> 01:13:10,920
Speaker 9: and most people opt to not actually go on cross

1314
01:13:10,960 --> 01:13:14,240
Speaker 9: sex hormones. And that's like a successful treatment like that

1315
01:13:14,360 --> 01:13:16,640
Speaker 9: is that that is what the drug is supposed to do.

1316
01:13:17,120 --> 01:13:19,720
Speaker 9: But there's definitely this idea among these like anti transactivists

1317
01:13:19,760 --> 01:13:22,200
Speaker 9: that like, if you go on blockers, that means you're

1318
01:13:22,439 --> 01:13:24,800
Speaker 9: more likely to become quote unquote like fully trends in

1319
01:13:24,840 --> 01:13:26,880
Speaker 9: the future, which also just like isn't true.

1320
01:13:27,880 --> 01:13:30,520
Speaker 3: But do you know what is reversible?

1321
01:13:31,439 --> 01:13:34,120
Speaker 4: Not liking their products and services and support this podcast.

1322
01:13:34,439 --> 01:13:36,760
Speaker 9: You can you can reverse that and make it so

1323
01:13:36,840 --> 01:13:40,200
Speaker 9: you really like them, which helps us a little bit.

1324
01:13:40,320 --> 01:13:42,679
Speaker 9: Probably I assume I don't know. I think so, I don't.

1325
01:13:42,920 --> 01:13:44,400
Speaker 9: I don't I don't do the business thing.

1326
01:13:44,600 --> 01:13:57,559
Speaker 3: Anyway. Here are the ads. Okay, we are back.

1327
01:13:58,400 --> 01:14:02,879
Speaker 9: Let let's continue this fine literature from our good enemies

1328
01:14:02,920 --> 01:14:04,240
Speaker 9: at the Heritage Foundation.

1329
01:14:04,680 --> 01:14:08,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, great art and layout. As what I'm noticing it

1330
01:14:08,240 --> 01:14:09,639
Speaker 3: it is it is very well designed.

1331
01:14:09,720 --> 01:14:13,520
Speaker 9: Yeah, there's these there are some children, these poor kids,

1332
01:14:13,800 --> 01:14:15,920
Speaker 9: these poor stock photos of children.

1333
01:14:16,040 --> 01:14:20,080
Speaker 10: Yeah, I'm sure, I'm sure they gave the heartfelt consent

1334
01:14:20,160 --> 01:14:22,560
Speaker 10: to being used in it hate propaganda.

1335
01:14:23,280 --> 01:14:27,000
Speaker 9: The next section is called what are sex, gender, and

1336
01:14:27,080 --> 01:14:32,519
Speaker 9: gender identity? The best biology, psychology, and philosophy. All support

1337
01:14:32,600 --> 01:14:36,280
Speaker 9: and understanding that sex is of bodily reality and that

1338
01:14:36,479 --> 01:14:39,479
Speaker 9: gender is a social manifestation of bodily sex.

1339
01:14:39,920 --> 01:14:41,640
Speaker 3: The best biology.

1340
01:14:41,760 --> 01:14:49,960
Speaker 9: That's simply the best philosophy.

1341
01:14:47,880 --> 01:14:51,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, oh my god.

1342
01:14:52,000 --> 01:14:56,880
Speaker 9: Now this claim actually does have a citation, so it's true. Now,

1343
01:14:56,960 --> 01:15:00,800
Speaker 9: let me check the citation. The citation is oh oh

1344
01:15:00,880 --> 01:15:03,519
Speaker 9: oh wait, wait wait oh, the citation is when Harry

1345
01:15:03,520 --> 01:15:07,080
Speaker 9: became Sally responding to the transgender movement the Anti trans

1346
01:15:07,080 --> 01:15:09,120
Speaker 9: Book of two eighteen by Ryan T.

1347
01:15:09,240 --> 01:15:09,760
Speaker 3: Anderson.

1348
01:15:09,880 --> 01:15:14,639
Speaker 9: Oh god, that's not a real philosophy, biology, or psychology book.

1349
01:15:14,720 --> 01:15:18,400
Speaker 10: Oh okay, well he won best Philosopher anyway, I don't

1350
01:15:18,400 --> 01:15:19,320
Speaker 10: know what you're talking about.

1351
01:15:21,040 --> 01:15:26,120
Speaker 9: The best all agree, that's so good now. Sex sex

1352
01:15:26,200 --> 01:15:30,560
Speaker 9: is a biological reality referring to an organism's overall organization

1353
01:15:30,640 --> 01:15:33,800
Speaker 9: towards sexual reproduction in human beings, just like every other

1354
01:15:33,880 --> 01:15:37,920
Speaker 9: species that sexually reproduces. This organism includes the chromosomes we

1355
01:15:38,000 --> 01:15:41,879
Speaker 9: inherit from our parents and the reproductive organs systems natalia

1356
01:15:41,920 --> 01:15:44,680
Speaker 9: and hormones that developed as a consequence. As there are

1357
01:15:44,720 --> 01:15:49,320
Speaker 9: two reproductive systems, there are two sexes, just like every

1358
01:15:49,400 --> 01:15:54,200
Speaker 9: other species that sexually reproduces. This is completely consistent. I

1359
01:15:54,240 --> 01:15:56,840
Speaker 9: get no citation because that's not That is not how

1360
01:15:56,880 --> 01:16:01,519
Speaker 9: biology actually works. No, nor is your Italian necessarily determined

1361
01:16:01,520 --> 01:16:07,519
Speaker 9: by your chromosomes. Nope, but sure, why not? The best

1362
01:16:07,560 --> 01:16:11,599
Speaker 9: biology all support this understanding? Yeah, yeah, the.

1363
01:16:11,400 --> 01:16:13,760
Speaker 3: Best biology from a first grade textbook.

1364
01:16:14,200 --> 01:16:16,559
Speaker 4: Actually, that's unfair to first grade textbooks, which are largely

1365
01:16:16,600 --> 01:16:17,679
Speaker 4: blameless in this matter.

1366
01:16:18,040 --> 01:16:19,120
Speaker 3: It is. It is unfair.

1367
01:16:19,680 --> 01:16:22,960
Speaker 10: Yeah, No, one's sticking genitalia in a first grade textbook.

1368
01:16:23,520 --> 01:16:26,880
Speaker 9: This organization isn't just the best way to figure out

1369
01:16:26,920 --> 01:16:31,599
Speaker 9: which sex you are, it's the only way to make

1370
01:16:31,680 --> 01:16:34,000
Speaker 9: sense of the concepts of male and female.

1371
01:16:34,360 --> 01:16:37,880
Speaker 3: Really really yeah, the only way. Yeah.

1372
01:16:37,920 --> 01:16:41,639
Speaker 9: What an interesting sociological statement made by the Heritage Foundation. Yeah,

1373
01:16:41,760 --> 01:16:45,559
Speaker 9: that the only differences are purely mechanistical and there really

1374
01:16:45,640 --> 01:16:49,200
Speaker 9: is no social basis that determines what the concepts in

1375
01:16:49,240 --> 01:16:52,240
Speaker 9: male and female relate to. What an interesting opinion that

1376
01:16:52,280 --> 01:16:55,760
Speaker 9: I'm sure is consistent across all of the heritage foundations.

1377
01:16:55,240 --> 01:16:57,680
Speaker 10: And yeah, it's going to say, you can pull out

1378
01:16:57,680 --> 01:17:00,559
Speaker 10: another booklet and call them on their ship with their words.

1379
01:17:01,560 --> 01:17:05,160
Speaker 9: Gender, by contrast, is the way one expresses their biological sex.

1380
01:17:05,400 --> 01:17:08,280
Speaker 9: We shouldn't pretend that there are no differences between male

1381
01:17:08,320 --> 01:17:12,160
Speaker 9: and female, because biological reality is that there are. We

1382
01:17:12,320 --> 01:17:17,160
Speaker 9: also shouldn't be trapped in rigid gender stereotypes. Transgender activists

1383
01:17:17,640 --> 01:17:21,519
Speaker 9: deny that sex is a bodily reality. They argue one

1384
01:17:21,600 --> 01:17:24,559
Speaker 9: it's perceived gender identity represents to a person really is,

1385
01:17:24,600 --> 01:17:27,880
Speaker 9: even if it goes against their biological sex. They deny

1386
01:17:27,880 --> 01:17:30,800
Speaker 9: their biological reality by suggesting that biological sex is merely

1387
01:17:30,840 --> 01:17:34,439
Speaker 9: assigned at birth. A little known fun fact, you actually

1388
01:17:34,439 --> 01:17:38,800
Speaker 9: can like scientifically change your biological sex. Yeah, rules, it

1389
01:17:38,840 --> 01:17:40,559
Speaker 9: takes a little bit of time, it takes a little

1390
01:17:40,560 --> 01:17:42,800
Speaker 9: bit of effort, but your biological sex can actually just

1391
01:17:42,840 --> 01:17:44,760
Speaker 9: be like completely changed. This is something that is not

1392
01:17:45,320 --> 01:17:45,960
Speaker 9: like set.

1393
01:17:46,720 --> 01:17:50,759
Speaker 4: Also, there is literally there is literally physically a document

1394
01:17:51,000 --> 01:17:52,920
Speaker 4: where your doctor assigns.

1395
01:17:52,400 --> 01:17:56,240
Speaker 3: You a sex at birth. I come on, yeah, no,

1396
01:17:57,000 --> 01:17:58,960
Speaker 3: it is a box that they must take.

1397
01:17:59,080 --> 01:18:01,599
Speaker 10: It's not even like not a line that they get

1398
01:18:01,640 --> 01:18:03,360
Speaker 10: to write in whatever they want, you know, like.

1399
01:18:03,880 --> 01:18:05,920
Speaker 9: But the cool thing is is that when you change

1400
01:18:05,960 --> 01:18:09,839
Speaker 9: with sex hormones your body is dominant in it actually

1401
01:18:09,920 --> 01:18:12,920
Speaker 9: changes the sex and the functions of your body. Pretty

1402
01:18:12,920 --> 01:18:16,240
Speaker 9: interesting stuff. Actually, I don't care about my chromosomes, but

1403
01:18:16,400 --> 01:18:18,519
Speaker 9: as soon as we want to do more gene tampering,

1404
01:18:18,560 --> 01:18:22,320
Speaker 9: I guess that that could be fun, but I don't

1405
01:18:22,320 --> 01:18:26,040
Speaker 9: really care. You can also change body parts, so that's cool.

1406
01:18:26,240 --> 01:18:29,040
Speaker 9: I know they're working on those womb transplants, but I'm

1407
01:18:29,040 --> 01:18:33,720
Speaker 9: not into that freaky stuff anyway. According to the American

1408
01:18:33,800 --> 01:18:37,800
Speaker 9: Psychological Association, gender identity refers to a person's internal sense

1409
01:18:37,840 --> 01:18:42,280
Speaker 9: of being male, female, or something else. Hey, something else nice.

1410
01:18:42,560 --> 01:18:47,160
Speaker 9: It is distinct from either sex or gender activists claim

1411
01:18:47,240 --> 01:18:50,719
Speaker 9: it is a person's internal sense of gender activists claim.

1412
01:18:52,479 --> 01:18:54,880
Speaker 9: They also assert that it's more than just male or female.

1413
01:18:54,880 --> 01:18:57,559
Speaker 9: It's fluid and there's a spectrum of various options beyond

1414
01:18:57,560 --> 01:19:01,680
Speaker 9: man and woman, like gender fluid, intern gender, or non binary.

1415
01:19:01,840 --> 01:19:05,760
Speaker 3: I've never heard the term intergender before. That's yeah, that's

1416
01:19:05,920 --> 01:19:06,519
Speaker 3: it's a new one.

1417
01:19:07,120 --> 01:19:09,880
Speaker 10: Well, I guess if thatnoledge the existence of intersex people,

1418
01:19:09,880 --> 01:19:12,160
Speaker 10: that kind of fucks up the premise of the whole thing.

1419
01:19:12,520 --> 01:19:14,160
Speaker 3: No, this is intergen Maybe.

1420
01:19:13,880 --> 01:19:16,640
Speaker 4: That's what Yeah, but again, maybe maybe that's what it is.

1421
01:19:16,680 --> 01:19:20,200
Speaker 4: They can't say intersect. Yeah, it destroys their whole ship.

1422
01:19:20,479 --> 01:19:22,840
Speaker 4: So they've transposed intersex.

1423
01:19:22,920 --> 01:19:25,120
Speaker 9: Is it like an identity, it's like an actual, like

1424
01:19:25,640 --> 01:19:27,240
Speaker 9: completely like medical thing.

1425
01:19:27,560 --> 01:19:31,000
Speaker 10: I don't think that they fully understand this shit, Garrison.

1426
01:19:31,400 --> 01:19:34,080
Speaker 9: I think it's it's you're right, You're sorry. Sorry, I forgot.

1427
01:19:34,120 --> 01:19:35,800
Speaker 9: I'm reading from a heritage, but.

1428
01:19:37,240 --> 01:19:39,000
Speaker 10: Maybe coming from a place of hate.

1429
01:19:39,680 --> 01:19:43,360
Speaker 9: All right, let's let's talk about gender dysphoria now. Let's

1430
01:19:43,840 --> 01:19:47,000
Speaker 9: Dysphoria refers to the distress someone experiences when they have

1431
01:19:47,000 --> 01:19:49,599
Speaker 9: a disconnection between their bodily, sex, and internal sense of gender.

1432
01:19:50,360 --> 01:19:54,080
Speaker 9: The diagnostic label gender entity disorder was used by the

1433
01:19:54,200 --> 01:19:58,080
Speaker 9: DSM until it's reclassification as a gender dysphoria in twenty

1434
01:19:58,120 --> 01:20:01,000
Speaker 9: thirteen with the release of the DSM five. They really

1435
01:20:01,000 --> 01:20:04,240
Speaker 9: want that old DSM back. They want it back before

1436
01:20:04,280 --> 01:20:08,400
Speaker 9: the DSM went woke. They really want DSM four. Transgender

1437
01:20:08,439 --> 01:20:10,040
Speaker 9: can refer to a man who identifies as a woman

1438
01:20:10,160 --> 01:20:12,080
Speaker 9: or a woman who identifies as man some activists.

1439
01:20:12,280 --> 01:20:14,840
Speaker 3: Some activists go so far as.

1440
01:20:14,760 --> 01:20:19,880
Speaker 9: To say that a trans woman is a woman crazy.

1441
01:20:22,400 --> 01:20:24,839
Speaker 9: Not all people who suffer from gender and dysphoria identify

1442
01:20:24,840 --> 01:20:27,040
Speaker 9: as transgender, and not everyone who dentifies the transgender sefer

1443
01:20:27,040 --> 01:20:32,560
Speaker 9: from gender dysphoria. Surprisingly woke statement. It's a surprisingly controversial

1444
01:20:32,560 --> 01:20:36,920
Speaker 9: and woke statement from Heritage Foundation here, anti transmend anti

1445
01:20:37,000 --> 01:20:42,639
Speaker 9: truthcum Air foundation. What the fuck base, it's the seven

1446
01:20:42,680 --> 01:20:45,920
Speaker 9: people who get that, you're welcome for everyone else.

1447
01:20:46,000 --> 01:20:49,240
Speaker 3: I swear to God, that's very funny. It's it's a

1448
01:20:49,280 --> 01:20:53,800
Speaker 3: little funny. Oh the funny.

1449
01:20:55,960 --> 01:20:59,439
Speaker 9: I was workshopping some kind of like Tumblr post style joke.

1450
01:20:59,520 --> 01:21:02,120
Speaker 9: But this I still have like two pages of this pamphlet.

1451
01:21:02,240 --> 01:21:05,479
Speaker 9: So now, how do gender identity policies affect me and

1452
01:21:05,560 --> 01:21:09,920
Speaker 9: my community? The question on every Republican grandparents' mind. The

1453
01:21:09,960 --> 01:21:13,760
Speaker 9: first area of concern privacy. Privacy concerns arise when a

1454
01:21:13,800 --> 01:21:17,920
Speaker 9: men who identify you as women can enter female only spaces,

1455
01:21:18,280 --> 01:21:22,280
Speaker 9: for example, changing rooms, gym class. They're doing bathroom stuff,

1456
01:21:22,680 --> 01:21:26,080
Speaker 9: that's what they're doing. The reason we have separate facilities

1457
01:21:26,120 --> 01:21:28,280
Speaker 9: in the first place is not because of a gender identity,

1458
01:21:28,360 --> 01:21:31,599
Speaker 9: but because of the bodily difference between males and females.

1459
01:21:31,840 --> 01:21:32,680
Speaker 3: That's interesting.

1460
01:21:33,000 --> 01:21:35,160
Speaker 9: I wonder what happens when some of those bodily differences

1461
01:21:35,160 --> 01:21:37,880
Speaker 9: start to change, or your social rules of male and

1462
01:21:37,880 --> 01:21:41,280
Speaker 9: female also change, like a young trans girl going into

1463
01:21:41,280 --> 01:21:44,920
Speaker 9: the men's bathroom that could maybe be a little bit

1464
01:21:45,000 --> 01:21:48,280
Speaker 9: uncomfortable anyway.

1465
01:21:48,320 --> 01:21:51,200
Speaker 3: Preventing sexual assault is another.

1466
01:21:51,040 --> 01:21:56,200
Speaker 9: Major area of concern when gender identity determines who may

1467
01:21:56,360 --> 01:22:01,120
Speaker 9: enter a women only space. Public safety X efforts such

1468
01:22:01,160 --> 01:22:05,639
Speaker 9: as Kenneth V. Lanning, former FBI Supervisory Special Agent assigned

1469
01:22:05,640 --> 01:22:07,519
Speaker 9: to the Behavioral Science Unit.

1470
01:22:09,320 --> 01:22:10,919
Speaker 3: They're doing the Buffalo Bill.

1471
01:22:13,400 --> 01:22:15,360
Speaker 9: At the National Center for the Analysis Violent Crime at

1472
01:22:15,360 --> 01:22:17,400
Speaker 9: the FBI Academy for over twenty years. It is just

1473
01:22:17,400 --> 01:22:22,080
Speaker 9: the Buffalo bill. Guy explains that predators abuse gender and

1474
01:22:22,400 --> 01:22:26,080
Speaker 9: the policies to gain access to victims, while victims law

1475
01:22:26,120 --> 01:22:29,120
Speaker 9: enforcement become less likely to report incidents for fear of

1476
01:22:29,160 --> 01:22:33,320
Speaker 9: having misunderstood and being accused of discrimination. The primary concern

1477
01:22:33,400 --> 01:22:36,599
Speaker 9: is not that people who identify as transgender will victimize women,

1478
01:22:36,840 --> 01:22:40,240
Speaker 9: but that predators will exploit gender identity policies to do so.

1479
01:22:40,240 --> 01:22:43,719
Speaker 9: So this is interesting. They're actually not doing all trans

1480
01:22:43,800 --> 01:22:47,120
Speaker 9: women are secretly rapists. They are doing what is actually

1481
01:22:47,160 --> 01:22:50,439
Speaker 9: more like more legit is that no like men will

1482
01:22:50,439 --> 01:22:52,880
Speaker 9: be fucked up and men will like do fucked up shit.

1483
01:22:53,280 --> 01:22:56,120
Speaker 9: The thing is, they don't need those policies to do

1484
01:22:56,160 --> 01:22:58,160
Speaker 9: fucked up shit. Men will do it regardless.

1485
01:22:58,800 --> 01:23:02,519
Speaker 4: Wait, you are the Herod Foundation, Your your base, your

1486
01:23:02,840 --> 01:23:05,920
Speaker 4: entire base are chuck is composed of churches who do

1487
01:23:05,960 --> 01:23:08,000
Speaker 4: this literally every day, Like, come on, what are we

1488
01:23:08,040 --> 01:23:08,559
Speaker 4: doing here?

1489
01:23:08,960 --> 01:23:11,479
Speaker 3: But you find it interesting that they take this line

1490
01:23:11,520 --> 01:23:12,000
Speaker 3: of approach.

1491
01:23:12,400 --> 01:23:14,880
Speaker 4: I will say, this pamphlet feels like a much more

1492
01:23:14,960 --> 01:23:17,840
Speaker 4: sort of moderate So this feels like a gateway thing

1493
01:23:18,120 --> 01:23:21,559
Speaker 4: versus like the stuff that they're stuff that they actually believe,

1494
01:23:21,880 --> 01:23:23,760
Speaker 4: or like the sort of like more hardcore stuff that

1495
01:23:23,760 --> 01:23:25,520
Speaker 4: they they distribute.

1496
01:23:26,200 --> 01:23:28,400
Speaker 9: Well, I'm not sure how to how to segue to

1497
01:23:28,439 --> 01:23:30,599
Speaker 9: an ad break from this one. I'll be honest.

1498
01:23:31,960 --> 01:23:33,879
Speaker 3: You know what else the Heritage Foundation supports?

1499
01:23:34,280 --> 01:23:37,240
Speaker 9: Oh well that only is true capitalism and these ads

1500
01:23:37,240 --> 01:23:40,960
Speaker 9: that help fuel the turning machine of death and suffering.

1501
01:23:41,160 --> 01:23:55,519
Speaker 9: Hah Okay, we are back. Let's talk about fairness. Gender

1502
01:23:55,600 --> 01:24:01,479
Speaker 9: identity creates an unfairness when biological males biological males compete

1503
01:24:01,560 --> 01:24:06,960
Speaker 9: against females in sports and other activities. It also reduces

1504
01:24:07,000 --> 01:24:10,640
Speaker 9: girl chances of winning athletic scholarships.

1505
01:24:11,000 --> 01:24:15,240
Speaker 10: Yeah, the other fucking title nine defense every.

1506
01:24:15,040 --> 01:24:18,800
Speaker 9: Time scholar I'm sure all those trends girls are taken

1507
01:24:18,840 --> 01:24:20,360
Speaker 9: of all the scholarships.

1508
01:24:20,479 --> 01:24:20,799
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1509
01:24:21,320 --> 01:24:23,600
Speaker 10: Just let's just see where the Heritage Foundation stood on

1510
01:24:23,680 --> 01:24:25,920
Speaker 10: fucking Title nine, shall we when that came in. I'm

1511
01:24:25,960 --> 01:24:27,280
Speaker 10: sure they were totally supportive.

1512
01:24:28,040 --> 01:24:34,040
Speaker 9: Already, several high school girls have lost state championships is

1513
01:24:34,760 --> 01:24:38,480
Speaker 9: to quote unquote boys who were allowed to compete against them.

1514
01:24:38,960 --> 01:24:42,880
Speaker 9: These two boys have won fifteen girls state championships that

1515
01:24:42,920 --> 01:24:47,599
Speaker 9: were held up by ten females in the previous year.

1516
01:24:49,160 --> 01:24:52,120
Speaker 9: I tried to search some of these keywords to find

1517
01:24:52,160 --> 01:24:54,920
Speaker 9: exactly what they were talking about. The first result was

1518
01:24:55,120 --> 01:24:59,160
Speaker 9: from the reputable news publication, the Daily Signal, which is

1519
01:24:59,200 --> 01:25:03,400
Speaker 9: a Heritage Foundation puppet site. The article is just listing

1520
01:25:03,520 --> 01:25:05,719
Speaker 9: like a handful of like trans girls across the country

1521
01:25:05,760 --> 01:25:07,160
Speaker 9: who participated in school sports.

1522
01:25:07,320 --> 01:25:08,559
Speaker 3: And that's like, that's like all it is.

1523
01:25:09,360 --> 01:25:14,000
Speaker 9: And then of particular interest to James this next sentence, Oh, god,

1524
01:25:14,880 --> 01:25:19,000
Speaker 9: man who entifies some transgender Well, that's that's an interesting one.

1525
01:25:19,560 --> 01:25:23,160
Speaker 9: A man whoifies as a transgender has also won the

1526
01:25:23,240 --> 01:25:25,200
Speaker 9: women's cycling World's title.

1527
01:25:26,720 --> 01:25:29,400
Speaker 10: I know who they're talking about here. This is someone

1528
01:25:29,479 --> 01:25:32,800
Speaker 10: called for Runica Ivy. She was formerly known as Rachel

1529
01:25:32,840 --> 01:25:35,479
Speaker 10: McKinnon when she won the world title. Okay, she won

1530
01:25:35,520 --> 01:25:39,479
Speaker 10: a UCI Women's Master's Track World Championship. If you want

1531
01:25:39,520 --> 01:25:43,320
Speaker 10: to find an event where gender affirming hormones are used

1532
01:25:43,960 --> 01:25:46,360
Speaker 10: on a regular basis, I suggest you check out the

1533
01:25:46,400 --> 01:25:51,360
Speaker 10: Men's Masters World Track Championship because every fucking year one

1534
01:25:51,360 --> 01:25:55,400
Speaker 10: of those dudes gets popped for using testosterone, and like,

1535
01:25:55,680 --> 01:25:59,680
Speaker 10: I don't see that in the Heritage Foundation's complaints, Like

1536
01:26:00,600 --> 01:26:04,920
Speaker 10: this is just asshole, really, they've she has been a

1537
01:26:04,960 --> 01:26:07,799
Speaker 10: particular target for these people. Cycling has been a particular

1538
01:26:07,840 --> 01:26:10,160
Speaker 10: target for these people for a very long time, and

1539
01:26:10,200 --> 01:26:13,679
Speaker 10: it's very funny that they continue to like put out

1540
01:26:13,680 --> 01:26:17,880
Speaker 10: this propaganda which completely misunderstands, like the things that let

1541
01:26:17,920 --> 01:26:21,639
Speaker 10: you win the Master's Track World Championship are having money

1542
01:26:22,160 --> 01:26:26,479
Speaker 10: and having time. Like it is inherently unfair. It's it's

1543
01:26:27,120 --> 01:26:30,280
Speaker 10: a hobby sport right thirty five to forty four. There

1544
01:26:30,280 --> 01:26:32,760
Speaker 10: are not professional athletes in that age group like the

1545
01:26:32,760 --> 01:26:34,679
Speaker 10: people doing this. So the people who have the time

1546
01:26:34,720 --> 01:26:36,759
Speaker 10: and the money, they buy the fancy bikes, they travel

1547
01:26:36,800 --> 01:26:39,280
Speaker 10: to the race. It's if you care, if you care

1548
01:26:39,280 --> 01:26:41,960
Speaker 10: about fairness in masters cycling, there are a million other

1549
01:26:42,000 --> 01:26:42,840
Speaker 10: places to go after it.

1550
01:26:42,840 --> 01:26:43,519
Speaker 3: This is bullshit.

1551
01:26:44,000 --> 01:26:47,360
Speaker 9: Well it's so, it's so transparent because now the biggest

1552
01:26:47,840 --> 01:26:54,000
Speaker 9: trans sports controversy has been over a cisgender woman who

1553
01:26:54,080 --> 01:26:58,200
Speaker 9: just is appearing too masculine, right, Like, like the biggest,

1554
01:26:58,640 --> 01:27:01,400
Speaker 9: the biggest controversy in this whole trans women and sports

1555
01:27:01,400 --> 01:27:04,559
Speaker 9: thing at the Olympics ear earlier this year is just

1556
01:27:04,680 --> 01:27:05,960
Speaker 9: actually assis gender woman.

1557
01:27:06,160 --> 01:27:09,880
Speaker 10: Yeah, but that's the whole thing, right, Like policing the

1558
01:27:09,920 --> 01:27:12,759
Speaker 10: way people present their gender is what this is about

1559
01:27:12,840 --> 01:27:13,720
Speaker 10: for them.

1560
01:27:13,920 --> 01:27:16,559
Speaker 9: Yeah, and they're willing to throw anyone under the bus

1561
01:27:16,760 --> 01:27:19,800
Speaker 9: as long as it like puts forward like whatever disinformation

1562
01:27:19,880 --> 01:27:22,759
Speaker 9: they want, with the sole purpose of just changing public opinion,

1563
01:27:23,040 --> 01:27:26,520
Speaker 9: not actually like caring about any of the people involved.

1564
01:27:26,120 --> 01:27:29,200
Speaker 10: Here, Yeah, but like a return to like I don't

1565
01:27:29,200 --> 01:27:31,360
Speaker 10: even think traditional gender roles, but like, let's just say

1566
01:27:31,439 --> 01:27:34,559
Speaker 10: nineteen thirties gender roles, not even nineteen thirties, right, there

1567
01:27:34,560 --> 01:27:37,560
Speaker 10: were women fighting in the Spanishil War in the nineteen thirties.

1568
01:27:37,320 --> 01:27:39,280
Speaker 4: Victorian England gender roles.

1569
01:27:39,560 --> 01:27:43,040
Speaker 10: Yeah, totally, like it is what they want, and like

1570
01:27:44,040 --> 01:27:47,400
Speaker 10: they're not throwing emonically funded a bus so much she

1571
01:27:47,640 --> 01:27:49,840
Speaker 10: is part of a target because she's not a girly

1572
01:27:49,960 --> 01:27:52,479
Speaker 10: enough girl. Right, she's a woman who punches other people

1573
01:27:52,520 --> 01:27:56,680
Speaker 10: in the face, and like that's not collateral damage to me.

1574
01:27:56,840 --> 01:28:00,200
Speaker 10: Like that is part of their thing, right, it's not

1575
01:28:00,920 --> 01:28:02,800
Speaker 10: coincidental that it was a box set.

1576
01:28:02,920 --> 01:28:04,759
Speaker 3: It's part of their larger political project.

1577
01:28:05,080 --> 01:28:05,320
Speaker 8: Yeah.

1578
01:28:05,479 --> 01:28:08,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, And obviously it's also their conception of womanhood is

1579
01:28:08,120 --> 01:28:12,200
Speaker 4: also highly racialized. Yes, obvious reasons.

1580
01:28:12,360 --> 01:28:15,080
Speaker 10: Yeah, it's not coincidental there's an African woman, right.

1581
01:28:15,360 --> 01:28:17,160
Speaker 9: No, many of the transgirls who are listed in the

1582
01:28:17,200 --> 01:28:20,960
Speaker 9: Daily Signal article, or transgirls of color. Yeah, that is

1583
01:28:20,960 --> 01:28:23,439
Speaker 9: who they're going after. They're going after like the most

1584
01:28:23,439 --> 01:28:26,040
Speaker 9: oppressed person and you can be in the country.

1585
01:28:26,400 --> 01:28:26,719
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1586
01:28:26,840 --> 01:28:30,240
Speaker 9: Now on onto one of our final chapters, How transgenderism

1587
01:28:30,320 --> 01:28:32,440
Speaker 9: affects your personal liberty.

1588
01:28:32,439 --> 01:28:34,679
Speaker 3: Transgenderism, that's the good to one.

1589
01:28:34,760 --> 01:28:37,800
Speaker 9: Transgender policies also violate our freedom speech and freedom of

1590
01:28:37,840 --> 01:28:40,599
Speaker 9: conscience by forcing people to speak or act in ways

1591
01:28:40,680 --> 01:28:44,479
Speaker 9: contrary to their personal judgment and deeply held beliefs. In

1592
01:28:44,520 --> 01:28:46,639
Speaker 9: New York City, you can be fined up to two

1593
01:28:46,800 --> 01:28:50,400
Speaker 9: hundred and fifty thousand dollars for misgendering.

1594
01:28:50,479 --> 01:28:53,679
Speaker 3: What's the citation that they do have a citation? Okay,

1595
01:28:54,200 --> 01:28:54,519
Speaker 3: hit me.

1596
01:28:55,080 --> 01:29:00,759
Speaker 9: They do go to the NYC Commission, and this isn't true.

1597
01:29:00,880 --> 01:29:03,679
Speaker 9: Despite the citation, they're trying to take like a city

1598
01:29:03,760 --> 01:29:06,519
Speaker 9: ordinance and twist it to make it sound like you

1599
01:29:06,560 --> 01:29:09,120
Speaker 9: will be fined a quarter of a million dollars for

1600
01:29:09,200 --> 01:29:11,040
Speaker 9: calling some of the wrong pronouns. And that's not where

1601
01:29:11,040 --> 01:29:15,000
Speaker 9: the audience is. Yeah, it's employment law, right, correct. It

1602
01:29:15,040 --> 01:29:16,920
Speaker 9: was first written in the early two thousands. It was

1603
01:29:16,960 --> 01:29:19,519
Speaker 9: then revised in twenty fifteen. I'm going to quote from

1604
01:29:19,520 --> 01:29:22,920
Speaker 9: Snopes quote discrimination it gets a transgender individual could resultant

1605
01:29:22,920 --> 01:29:25,160
Speaker 9: finds to up to two hundred and fifty thousand dollars,

1606
01:29:25,360 --> 01:29:28,240
Speaker 9: But these fines won't be handed out for acidentally misusing pronouns.

1607
01:29:28,240 --> 01:29:31,880
Speaker 9: According to the new guidelines, the Commission can impose civil

1608
01:29:31,920 --> 01:29:34,080
Speaker 9: penalties up to one hundred and twenty five thousand dollars

1609
01:29:34,120 --> 01:29:36,840
Speaker 9: for violations of the law, and, in extreme circumstances, two

1610
01:29:36,920 --> 01:29:39,400
Speaker 9: hundred and fifty thousand for violations that are the result

1611
01:29:39,520 --> 01:29:43,519
Speaker 9: of willful, wanton, and malicious conduct. Yeah, this is for

1612
01:29:43,600 --> 01:29:45,000
Speaker 9: like employment discrimination.

1613
01:29:45,200 --> 01:29:49,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, employment discrimination happens literally all the time, and it

1614
01:29:49,360 --> 01:29:50,759
Speaker 4: never there's almost ever.

1615
01:29:50,680 --> 01:29:53,799
Speaker 3: Consequences for it. Yeah, but that's where this number comes from.

1616
01:29:54,000 --> 01:29:56,880
Speaker 10: Right, And it's completely misleading to suggest it like the

1617
01:29:56,960 --> 01:29:58,280
Speaker 10: work police to get to find you.

1618
01:29:59,240 --> 01:30:02,559
Speaker 9: Correct, And it's not for misusing pronouns. It's for like

1619
01:30:03,000 --> 01:30:07,160
Speaker 9: extreme cases of like continuous harassment or like like like

1620
01:30:07,320 --> 01:30:11,800
Speaker 9: legal discrimination. The next sentence is, quote, both a high

1621
01:30:11,880 --> 01:30:14,880
Speaker 9: school teacher and a college professor have been sanctioned by

1622
01:30:14,920 --> 01:30:19,479
Speaker 9: their employers for using biologically correct terms with their students.

1623
01:30:19,680 --> 01:30:20,679
Speaker 3: Did Jordan Peterson?

1624
01:30:21,240 --> 01:30:23,960
Speaker 9: Now, obviously those terms are not biologically correct because you

1625
01:30:24,000 --> 01:30:27,120
Speaker 9: can scientifically change your biological sex. And what they're talking

1626
01:30:27,120 --> 01:30:29,000
Speaker 9: about here is no just teachers who are just like

1627
01:30:29,000 --> 01:30:31,680
Speaker 9: harassing their students, who are like calling them by like

1628
01:30:31,760 --> 01:30:34,360
Speaker 9: the wrong name, calling them by the wrong pronouns. Like

1629
01:30:34,560 --> 01:30:37,920
Speaker 9: if you did that like assist person over time, Yeah,

1630
01:30:37,960 --> 01:30:40,200
Speaker 9: you would also get in trouble because that's just like harassment.

1631
01:30:40,439 --> 01:30:43,360
Speaker 10: Yeah yeah, And like you're just a shit teacher. If

1632
01:30:43,400 --> 01:30:45,960
Speaker 10: you're fucking going after your students for who they are,

1633
01:30:46,120 --> 01:30:48,599
Speaker 10: then yeah, you probably shouldn't be a teacher.

1634
01:30:49,400 --> 01:30:53,559
Speaker 9: They then talk about how transactivists are trying to get

1635
01:30:53,600 --> 01:30:58,200
Speaker 9: medical providers to provide like gender affirming healthcare. They're complaining

1636
01:30:58,240 --> 01:31:01,599
Speaker 9: how how Catholic hospitals are getting in trouble for not

1637
01:31:01,640 --> 01:31:04,639
Speaker 9: wanting to do gender firming health care. They talk about

1638
01:31:04,680 --> 01:31:08,200
Speaker 9: like an Obama mandate that forces health care plans to

1639
01:31:08,280 --> 01:31:12,280
Speaker 9: cover gender firming health care and making sure that physicians

1640
01:31:12,320 --> 01:31:14,800
Speaker 9: actually have to do it even if they personally don't

1641
01:31:14,800 --> 01:31:16,439
Speaker 9: want to be like, no, this is like your job,

1642
01:31:16,479 --> 01:31:18,880
Speaker 9: you have to provide health care. So they complain about

1643
01:31:18,920 --> 01:31:21,000
Speaker 9: all that kind of stuff, and then the last section

1644
01:31:21,040 --> 01:31:25,559
Speaker 9: of the pamphlet is on child development. Transmitter ideology is

1645
01:31:25,560 --> 01:31:27,840
Speaker 9: now promoted in schools for children are taught that gender

1646
01:31:27,880 --> 01:31:30,240
Speaker 9: is fluid, falls long a spectrum, and is detached from

1647
01:31:30,280 --> 01:31:34,160
Speaker 9: bodily sex. In addition, activists seek to punish anyone who

1648
01:31:34,160 --> 01:31:38,040
Speaker 9: expresses any reservations about radical treatment plans for gender dysphoric children.

1649
01:31:38,320 --> 01:31:41,320
Speaker 9: These plans can include socially transitioning children as young as four,

1650
01:31:41,640 --> 01:31:44,720
Speaker 9: administering puberty blocking drugs as young as nine, cross sex

1651
01:31:44,760 --> 01:31:47,599
Speaker 9: hormones is eng as fourteen, and surgery as young as eighteen.

1652
01:31:48,439 --> 01:31:52,759
Speaker 9: This ideology threatens parental rights. In Ohio, a Catholic family

1653
01:31:53,080 --> 01:31:56,439
Speaker 9: lost custody of their daughter when they oppose treatment of

1654
01:31:56,560 --> 01:32:03,120
Speaker 9: gender dysphoria with cross sex hormones. So, actually this is

1655
01:32:03,120 --> 01:32:06,000
Speaker 9: actually a pretty good breakdown of like how gender like

1656
01:32:06,160 --> 01:32:08,679
Speaker 9: affirming healthcare could work, because yeah, if a kid wants

1657
01:32:08,720 --> 01:32:12,200
Speaker 9: to like socially start transitioning very young and they want to, yes,

1658
01:32:12,320 --> 01:32:14,680
Speaker 9: that's great, there's no harm in that. If getting on

1659
01:32:14,720 --> 01:32:18,639
Speaker 9: puberty blockers at around nine, that makes sense, hormones as

1660
01:32:18,680 --> 01:32:22,240
Speaker 9: a teenager, yeah, and surgery maybe a little bit later. Yeah,

1661
01:32:22,240 --> 01:32:26,000
Speaker 9: that all seems quite quite reasonable. And in terms of

1662
01:32:26,040 --> 01:32:30,400
Speaker 9: this Catholic family, So a transfer of parents lost custody

1663
01:32:30,400 --> 01:32:33,599
Speaker 9: of their seventeen year old trans son in twenty eighteen

1664
01:32:33,760 --> 01:32:36,439
Speaker 9: after inducing suicidal ideation for refusing to let their child

1665
01:32:36,520 --> 01:32:39,120
Speaker 9: receive hormone therapy prescribed by a medical team who had

1666
01:32:39,160 --> 01:32:42,720
Speaker 9: been treating the child for two years. Custody was transferred

1667
01:32:42,720 --> 01:32:44,960
Speaker 9: to his grandparents. So this wasn't the state just like

1668
01:32:45,000 --> 01:32:47,719
Speaker 9: stealing this child away. It's like, no, you're like basically

1669
01:32:47,760 --> 01:32:49,960
Speaker 9: abusing this kid. So we're going to move custody over

1670
01:32:50,280 --> 01:32:52,439
Speaker 9: to the grandparents. Also, like you're opposing this for a

1671
01:32:52,520 --> 01:32:54,840
Speaker 9: seventeen year old, this is almost like a full legal adult.

1672
01:32:55,120 --> 01:32:57,799
Speaker 9: I'm going to quote from CNN here quote. The parents'

1673
01:32:57,800 --> 01:33:00,439
Speaker 9: attorney had argued that the child was no not even

1674
01:33:00,560 --> 01:33:03,360
Speaker 9: quote close to being able to make such a life

1675
01:33:03,400 --> 01:33:07,040
Speaker 9: altering decision at this time. Unquote, The county prosecuting attorney

1676
01:33:07,120 --> 01:33:08,920
Speaker 9: argued that the parents wanted to stop the treatment because

1677
01:33:08,960 --> 01:33:12,360
Speaker 9: it violated their religious beliefs unquote. So yeah, you're so

1678
01:33:12,400 --> 01:33:14,559
Speaker 9: scared that this seventeen year old is going to make

1679
01:33:14,600 --> 01:33:16,679
Speaker 9: a choice that you personally find a little bit icky,

1680
01:33:17,360 --> 01:33:17,840
Speaker 9: like cob on.

1681
01:33:18,400 --> 01:33:21,920
Speaker 10: Yeah, I'm pretty sure you can legally imantipate yourself at seventeen, right.

1682
01:33:22,320 --> 01:33:24,960
Speaker 9: Yeah, and usually you have like medical freedom, at least

1683
01:33:25,000 --> 01:33:28,280
Speaker 9: in Oregon, you have medical freedom at sixteen. I don't

1684
01:33:28,280 --> 01:33:29,960
Speaker 9: know what the case by case basis is in a

1685
01:33:29,960 --> 01:33:32,800
Speaker 9: lot of states. Yeah, but that's that's pretty fucked up.

1686
01:33:33,400 --> 01:33:33,559
Speaker 8: Now.

1687
01:33:33,760 --> 01:33:36,759
Speaker 9: There is nothing in the coverage about the family being Catholic.

1688
01:33:37,120 --> 01:33:41,200
Speaker 9: Heritage might be conflating this other story from Indiana where

1689
01:33:41,240 --> 01:33:43,519
Speaker 9: Catholic family lost custody of their trans kid in twenty

1690
01:33:43,560 --> 01:33:46,880
Speaker 9: twenty one for alleged child abuse, and then earlier this year,

1691
01:33:46,920 --> 01:33:49,519
Speaker 9: the Supreme Court declined to hear the parents' case.

1692
01:33:51,040 --> 01:33:54,200
Speaker 3: So, so there you go, big a health for them.

1693
01:33:54,840 --> 01:33:58,040
Speaker 9: They then talk about quote unquote research, what the research

1694
01:33:58,200 --> 01:34:02,400
Speaker 9: says about transition, The view that social medical transition is

1695
01:34:02,400 --> 01:34:04,920
Speaker 9: the appropriate treatment for people, including children who feel at

1696
01:34:04,920 --> 01:34:08,000
Speaker 9: odds with their biological sex is becoming more widely accepted. However,

1697
01:34:08,240 --> 01:34:12,320
Speaker 9: transitioning treatment, including puberty blocking hormones for children and sex

1698
01:34:12,400 --> 01:34:17,599
Speaker 9: change surgeries for teens and adults, come with serious consequences. Today,

1699
01:34:17,720 --> 01:34:20,200
Speaker 9: parents are told that puberty blockers and cross sex hormones

1700
01:34:20,280 --> 01:34:22,240
Speaker 9: may be the only way to prevent their child from

1701
01:34:22,240 --> 01:34:26,320
Speaker 9: committing suicide. However, according to the DSM five, as many

1702
01:34:26,360 --> 01:34:29,800
Speaker 9: as ninety eight percent of gender confused boys and eighty

1703
01:34:29,840 --> 01:34:33,480
Speaker 9: eight percent of gender confused girls eventually accept their biological

1704
01:34:33,520 --> 01:34:37,880
Speaker 9: sex after naturally passing through puberty. Okay, let's go over

1705
01:34:37,920 --> 01:34:39,800
Speaker 9: this because there's some weird phrasing here.

1706
01:34:39,800 --> 01:34:40,920
Speaker 3: Because no, that's not it.

1707
01:34:41,000 --> 01:34:44,080
Speaker 9: That's all with the DSM actually, says a writer named

1708
01:34:44,320 --> 01:34:46,639
Speaker 9: Micah b broke down this claim in a medium post

1709
01:34:46,680 --> 01:34:50,360
Speaker 9: from twenty eighteen. This exact sentence has been reused a

1710
01:34:50,360 --> 01:34:55,439
Speaker 9: lot of like writing publications over time. So accept their

1711
01:34:55,479 --> 01:34:59,360
Speaker 9: biological sex after naturally passing through puberty is a very

1712
01:34:59,560 --> 01:35:03,439
Speaker 9: loaded raise. Like a child who suffers from genitisphoria may

1713
01:35:03,479 --> 01:35:06,760
Speaker 9: receive treatment, whether that's through like like speech therapy, like

1714
01:35:06,800 --> 01:35:11,000
Speaker 9: talking about it with a therapist, or hormone blockers, and

1715
01:35:11,240 --> 01:35:13,840
Speaker 9: they may then choose to cease treatment and go through

1716
01:35:13,840 --> 01:35:17,200
Speaker 9: their natural puberty, right like that is, but yeah, that's

1717
01:35:17,240 --> 01:35:20,519
Speaker 9: not them like like one unquote like naturally passing through puberty.

1718
01:35:20,560 --> 01:35:24,000
Speaker 9: Like no, that that also involves a degree of treatment. Now,

1719
01:35:24,360 --> 01:35:26,320
Speaker 9: the reason why these numbers might be a little bit

1720
01:35:26,400 --> 01:35:30,040
Speaker 9: kind of odd, and also they're just false like the

1721
01:35:30,040 --> 01:35:32,879
Speaker 9: way that they're like being framed here, but in particular

1722
01:35:32,920 --> 01:35:36,760
Speaker 9: for kids, like the criteria for children having genitusphoria is

1723
01:35:36,840 --> 01:35:40,080
Speaker 9: different from the criteria for teens and adults, right, does

1724
01:35:40,160 --> 01:35:44,120
Speaker 9: mean different things. They also say as many as ninety

1725
01:35:44,160 --> 01:35:51,759
Speaker 9: eight percent. Many reason I say because the DSM five

1726
01:35:51,960 --> 01:35:56,479
Speaker 9: actually says that quote in natal males, persistence has ranged

1727
01:35:56,680 --> 01:35:59,679
Speaker 9: from two point two percent to thirty percent. In natal

1728
01:35:59,720 --> 01:36:03,160
Speaker 9: female else, persistance has ranged from twelve percent to fifty percent.

1729
01:36:04,000 --> 01:36:07,760
Speaker 9: So they took the lowest possible number and switched the

1730
01:36:07,800 --> 01:36:11,040
Speaker 9: stat around by saying that as many as ninety eight

1731
01:36:11,080 --> 01:36:15,920
Speaker 9: percent eventually accept their quote unquote biological sex. So that's

1732
01:36:16,320 --> 01:36:19,360
Speaker 9: that's a cute little little flip around. And then also,

1733
01:36:19,479 --> 01:36:22,679
Speaker 9: according to the DSM, a majority of boys sixty three

1734
01:36:22,720 --> 01:36:25,320
Speaker 9: to one hundred percent who quote unquote grow out of

1735
01:36:25,400 --> 01:36:28,240
Speaker 9: gender dysphoria just later turn out to be gay. Right,

1736
01:36:28,280 --> 01:36:30,720
Speaker 9: there is a difference between like gender dysphoria versus like

1737
01:36:30,800 --> 01:36:34,559
Speaker 9: gender deviance. That's why you, Yeah, you should like work

1738
01:36:34,640 --> 01:36:36,479
Speaker 9: with an actual medical team if you have like a

1739
01:36:36,600 --> 01:36:39,200
Speaker 9: kid who's like pre puberty, who has a degree of

1740
01:36:39,240 --> 01:36:41,720
Speaker 9: gender variance, because yeah, that could result in a whole

1741
01:36:41,720 --> 01:36:43,720
Speaker 9: bunch of a whole bunch of things, and the fact

1742
01:36:43,760 --> 01:36:45,200
Speaker 9: that some of them just grew up to be like

1743
01:36:45,439 --> 01:36:49,439
Speaker 9: gay kids is like the result of like successful medical treatment,

1744
01:36:49,479 --> 01:36:52,000
Speaker 9: and like it's like like a loving family. Like that

1745
01:36:52,120 --> 01:36:56,360
Speaker 9: is a good outcome. Similarly, the DSM says that thirty

1746
01:36:56,360 --> 01:36:58,720
Speaker 9: two to fifty percent of girls whose gender dysphoria does

1747
01:36:58,760 --> 01:37:01,000
Speaker 9: not persist later identify as gay.

1748
01:37:01,280 --> 01:37:02,800
Speaker 3: So there we go.

1749
01:37:03,040 --> 01:37:07,240
Speaker 9: That's pretty pretty pretty average stuff. They then go onto

1750
01:37:07,280 --> 01:37:11,080
Speaker 9: list all of the quote unquote side effects of gender

1751
01:37:11,080 --> 01:37:15,840
Speaker 9: affirming treatment, saying, quote meanwhile, radical gender affirming therapies post

1752
01:37:16,000 --> 01:37:21,120
Speaker 9: serious medical risks, including disfiguring acne, high blood pressure, weight gain,

1753
01:37:21,400 --> 01:37:27,200
Speaker 9: abnormal glucose tolerance, breast cancer, liver disease, thermioprosis, and cardiovascular disease.

1754
01:37:27,840 --> 01:37:32,080
Speaker 9: These are all the consequences of just puberty. Yeah, Like,

1755
01:37:32,200 --> 01:37:34,479
Speaker 9: depending on what puberty you go through. Yeah, it's gonna

1756
01:37:34,520 --> 01:37:38,760
Speaker 9: have different effects. That's just how puberty worries. Yeah, they

1757
01:37:38,800 --> 01:37:43,080
Speaker 9: also include uh and of course sterility, and this is

1758
01:37:43,520 --> 01:37:47,519
Speaker 9: still a hotly debated topic. There's some recent studies that

1759
01:37:47,560 --> 01:37:50,439
Speaker 9: show that there's actually a pretty good chance of people

1760
01:37:50,479 --> 01:37:54,200
Speaker 9: who go on estrogen being able to regain fertility after

1761
01:37:54,360 --> 01:37:58,479
Speaker 9: after like six months of ceasing treatment. It's not consistent, right,

1762
01:37:58,720 --> 01:38:02,920
Speaker 9: everyone who everyone who go on like HRT has an

1763
01:38:03,040 --> 01:38:07,519
Speaker 9: understanding that it can affect how they reproduce in the future.

1764
01:38:07,560 --> 01:38:10,080
Speaker 9: You're definitely encouraged to, like if you want to have

1765
01:38:10,200 --> 01:38:11,640
Speaker 9: kids or think you might want to have kids in

1766
01:38:11,640 --> 01:38:14,840
Speaker 9: the future, Like you can save your sperms, you can

1767
01:38:14,840 --> 01:38:17,040
Speaker 9: save your eggs, you can you can get that stuff

1768
01:38:17,040 --> 01:38:19,120
Speaker 9: ahead of time. Yeah, but this is also something that

1769
01:38:19,200 --> 01:38:22,040
Speaker 9: people are like working on of being able to like

1770
01:38:22,160 --> 01:38:25,120
Speaker 9: maintain the ability to have kids even like during or

1771
01:38:25,160 --> 01:38:29,160
Speaker 9: like after gender affirming health care treatment has like commenced,

1772
01:38:29,400 --> 01:38:34,360
Speaker 9: So that's cool. Finally, quote, puberty blocking therapies and cross

1773
01:38:34,439 --> 01:38:38,559
Speaker 9: sex hormones are non reversible, largely untested, and highly dangerous,

1774
01:38:38,600 --> 01:38:41,200
Speaker 9: especially for children. We've already we've already talked about how

1775
01:38:41,240 --> 01:38:43,479
Speaker 9: all of that is not true. We've already gone through

1776
01:38:43,479 --> 01:38:45,840
Speaker 9: all of that. Sex assignment surgeries have not been shown

1777
01:38:45,840 --> 01:38:48,680
Speaker 9: to reduce the extraordinarily high rate of suicide attempts among

1778
01:38:48,720 --> 01:38:52,120
Speaker 9: people who identify as transgender forty one percent compared to

1779
01:38:52,120 --> 01:38:55,640
Speaker 9: the general population's four point six percent. So this is

1780
01:38:55,640 --> 01:38:59,320
Speaker 9: also just like not true, Like everything, it's just not true. Also,

1781
01:38:59,360 --> 01:39:01,760
Speaker 9: there's no there's no citation here. A fear of you

1782
01:39:01,840 --> 01:39:04,360
Speaker 9: studying the Journal of Adlast and Health found that hormone

1783
01:39:04,360 --> 01:39:07,280
Speaker 9: therapy for trans youth reduced the rate of depression and

1784
01:39:07,320 --> 01:39:10,519
Speaker 9: suicide by forty percent. It also found that having like

1785
01:39:10,600 --> 01:39:16,080
Speaker 9: parental support during this process also heavily impacts the effectiveness

1786
01:39:16,200 --> 01:39:19,920
Speaker 9: of this treatment, specifically on depression and suicide. Like, if

1787
01:39:20,080 --> 01:39:22,679
Speaker 9: you're going through this treatment and your parents still hate you, yeah,

1788
01:39:22,720 --> 01:39:25,799
Speaker 9: that's going to actually, it's going to hurt the ability

1789
01:39:26,200 --> 01:39:29,280
Speaker 9: of this healthcare to actually be effective mentally. An investigation

1790
01:39:29,320 --> 01:39:31,479
Speaker 9: by doctors of the University of Washington found that trans

1791
01:39:31,560 --> 01:39:34,400
Speaker 9: youth who received gender affirming health care reduced their risk

1792
01:39:34,439 --> 01:39:36,720
Speaker 9: of suicide by seventy three percent compared to those who

1793
01:39:36,720 --> 01:39:39,600
Speaker 9: do not receive care, and a policy brief in the

1794
01:39:39,720 --> 01:39:44,200
Speaker 9: VA wrote quote, since nineteen seventy five, more than two

1795
01:39:44,280 --> 01:39:48,000
Speaker 9: thousand scientific studies have examined gender affirming care, supported by

1796
01:39:48,000 --> 01:39:50,960
Speaker 9: over thirty leading medical associations, including the World Health Organization

1797
01:39:51,000 --> 01:39:53,920
Speaker 9: and the American Medical Association, gender affirming care is deemed

1798
01:39:53,920 --> 01:39:58,439
Speaker 9: evidence based and effective at reducing suicide rates. This is

1799
01:39:58,479 --> 01:40:01,599
Speaker 9: all widely understood. This is such like an objectionable stance

1800
01:40:02,080 --> 01:40:05,680
Speaker 9: that even famous woke institution the VA, is like, yeah, no,

1801
01:40:05,720 --> 01:40:11,559
Speaker 9: it's actually really effective. Okay, And now actually, finally for

1802
01:40:11,640 --> 01:40:15,640
Speaker 9: this pamphletic quote, the most helpful therapies for children experiencing

1803
01:40:15,640 --> 01:40:18,800
Speaker 9: gender dysphoria do not try to remake the body to

1804
01:40:18,880 --> 01:40:23,800
Speaker 9: conform with thoughts and feelings, which is impossible, not impossible,

1805
01:40:24,439 --> 01:40:28,280
Speaker 9: but rather but rather to help people find healthy ways

1806
01:40:28,360 --> 01:40:33,720
Speaker 9: to manage their tension and move towards accepting the reality

1807
01:40:33,760 --> 01:40:38,280
Speaker 9: of their bodies. Unfortunately, fifteen states have passed laws of

1808
01:40:38,320 --> 01:40:41,680
Speaker 9: banning talk therapy for miners who struggle with gender dysphoria,

1809
01:40:41,720 --> 01:40:43,519
Speaker 9: and there's a bill in Congress which would do the same.

1810
01:40:44,360 --> 01:40:48,120
Speaker 9: There's no bill banning talk therapy. This is a conversion

1811
01:40:48,200 --> 01:40:51,280
Speaker 9: therapy ban. This isn't This isn't like actual talk therapy,

1812
01:40:51,280 --> 01:40:54,479
Speaker 9: which is a part of like actual healthcare treatment. This

1813
01:40:54,560 --> 01:40:57,280
Speaker 9: is against like conversion therapy. That is what they're actually

1814
01:40:57,280 --> 01:40:59,880
Speaker 9: talking about. So that is the bulk of the pan

1815
01:41:00,800 --> 01:41:03,599
Speaker 9: I also got given this other kind of I think

1816
01:41:03,600 --> 01:41:07,479
Speaker 9: it's called a fact sheet, which is ironic by the

1817
01:41:07,560 --> 01:41:11,520
Speaker 9: Heritage Action Group, which is the kind of lobbying activist

1818
01:41:11,640 --> 01:41:14,280
Speaker 9: arm branch of Heritage. It goes over a whole bunch

1819
01:41:14,280 --> 01:41:17,960
Speaker 9: of like the same stuff. They particularly don't like that

1820
01:41:18,160 --> 01:41:20,680
Speaker 9: the Department of Education released a report banning the use

1821
01:41:20,680 --> 01:41:23,839
Speaker 9: of offensive and inappropriate terms like mother and father in school.

1822
01:41:24,040 --> 01:41:24,880
Speaker 3: This isn't true.

1823
01:41:25,160 --> 01:41:27,120
Speaker 9: What they're talking about is that there's been a push

1824
01:41:27,160 --> 01:41:29,840
Speaker 9: to include just more gender neutral language, like instead of

1825
01:41:29,840 --> 01:41:33,320
Speaker 9: saying your mom and dad, just say parents. Like yeah,

1826
01:41:33,360 --> 01:41:37,920
Speaker 9: that makes sense. Yeah, that's that's specifically what they're complaining about.

1827
01:41:38,439 --> 01:41:42,600
Speaker 9: They complain about like books and schools. They call the

1828
01:41:42,680 --> 01:41:46,439
Speaker 9: Gender Queer Graphic Novel a book riddled with pornographic and

1829
01:41:46,479 --> 01:41:47,400
Speaker 9: pedophilic content.

1830
01:41:47,680 --> 01:41:50,960
Speaker 3: Not true. It's just simply isn't true.

1831
01:41:51,520 --> 01:41:53,280
Speaker 9: All these kind of old lies that we have talked

1832
01:41:53,320 --> 01:41:55,400
Speaker 9: about on the show like many times before. And then

1833
01:41:55,400 --> 01:41:57,240
Speaker 9: they also just rehash a whole bunch of of the

1834
01:41:57,240 --> 01:42:00,840
Speaker 9: claims from the other pamphlet They talk about the claim

1835
01:42:00,920 --> 01:42:03,559
Speaker 9: that in Virginia a girl was actually assaulted by a

1836
01:42:03,600 --> 01:42:05,760
Speaker 9: teen boy pretending to be a girl. And this is

1837
01:42:05,760 --> 01:42:07,920
Speaker 9: not an isolated incident. We've talked about that claim before.

1838
01:42:08,000 --> 01:42:10,240
Speaker 9: This was a fake story invented by the Daily Wire.

1839
01:42:10,720 --> 01:42:13,800
Speaker 9: This person was not trans. This was someone who was

1840
01:42:13,800 --> 01:42:16,200
Speaker 9: in a relationship with this girl who's actually assaulted her

1841
01:42:16,360 --> 01:42:20,280
Speaker 9: in a bathroom. Not a transperson, just a regular cysgender male.

1842
01:42:20,760 --> 01:42:23,519
Speaker 9: And then they talk about sports. They talk about how

1843
01:42:23,560 --> 01:42:27,679
Speaker 9: men have more upper body mass, and that puberty blockers

1844
01:42:27,840 --> 01:42:31,160
Speaker 9: do not change height, organ size, skeletal structure, muscle mass,

1845
01:42:31,240 --> 01:42:34,360
Speaker 9: or any of the biological characteristics that make men unequal

1846
01:42:34,400 --> 01:42:38,479
Speaker 9: opponents as hormones. Literally, they just list all the things

1847
01:42:38,479 --> 01:42:42,080
Speaker 9: that hormones actually change, like they actually famously do change

1848
01:42:42,120 --> 01:42:45,040
Speaker 9: all of those things. Height, skeletal structure, organ size, and

1849
01:42:45,120 --> 01:42:47,040
Speaker 9: muscle mass. Those are the main things.

1850
01:42:47,439 --> 01:42:47,639
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1851
01:42:47,640 --> 01:42:49,120
Speaker 10: I mean, if that wasn't the case, you could just

1852
01:42:49,160 --> 01:42:52,160
Speaker 10: take testosterone and you it wouldn't affect you.

1853
01:42:52,160 --> 01:42:56,920
Speaker 9: Apparently, Yeah, famously, testosterone never changes your muscle mass.

1854
01:42:57,400 --> 01:43:00,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, just just and soundstronger man who never benefit.

1855
01:43:00,320 --> 01:43:02,639
Speaker 9: They also complain about how the Biden administration is wanted

1856
01:43:02,640 --> 01:43:05,160
Speaker 9: people to use preferred pronouns if you work in government,

1857
01:43:05,200 --> 01:43:07,000
Speaker 9: which is again is just trying to stop people from

1858
01:43:07,000 --> 01:43:10,040
Speaker 9: like harassing by using the wrong pronouns. It's it's all

1859
01:43:10,080 --> 01:43:12,519
Speaker 9: just ways to prevent harassment. And they complain about all

1860
01:43:12,520 --> 01:43:15,600
Speaker 9: that kind of stuff as well. So it's a lot

1861
01:43:15,640 --> 01:43:17,640
Speaker 9: of the same stuff from the pamphlets. A it's a

1862
01:43:17,680 --> 01:43:20,240
Speaker 9: pretty fun little fact sheet. Those are the two main

1863
01:43:20,640 --> 01:43:24,160
Speaker 9: pamphlets that were going around the RNC about gender ideology.

1864
01:43:24,200 --> 01:43:26,200
Speaker 9: That was kind of the most in depth it ever got.

1865
01:43:26,479 --> 01:43:29,440
Speaker 9: Most of the speeches did not even get into any specifics.

1866
01:43:29,439 --> 01:43:33,360
Speaker 9: They just like threw out keywords fractual like discussion, this is,

1867
01:43:33,400 --> 01:43:35,280
Speaker 9: this is this is the most in depth stuff they had.

1868
01:43:35,400 --> 01:43:37,920
Speaker 9: So this is largely like the bulk of like the

1869
01:43:37,960 --> 01:43:41,040
Speaker 9: average RNC attendees knowledge. This is actually probably more in

1870
01:43:41,080 --> 01:43:44,120
Speaker 9: depth than most average RNC attendees, at least in terms

1871
01:43:44,160 --> 01:43:47,040
Speaker 9: of what Heritage is putting out publicly, that is, their

1872
01:43:47,040 --> 01:43:49,599
Speaker 9: talking points, any any kind of closing thoughts here.

1873
01:43:49,800 --> 01:43:54,200
Speaker 3: Just dog shit. I didn't know what to say. Yeah,

1874
01:43:54,240 --> 01:43:55,479
Speaker 3: it's really quite bad.

1875
01:43:55,920 --> 01:43:58,559
Speaker 9: It's not my favorite, but honestly, I think it's just

1876
01:43:58,600 --> 01:44:00,840
Speaker 9: so poorly written and I don't know how effective this

1877
01:44:01,000 --> 01:44:03,679
Speaker 9: is it could be a lot more transphobic. Oddly enough,

1878
01:44:03,760 --> 01:44:05,559
Speaker 9: they have a lot of like the same lies that

1879
01:44:05,680 --> 01:44:08,679
Speaker 9: the right has been like workshopping around certain claims around

1880
01:44:08,680 --> 01:44:11,560
Speaker 9: like trans healthcare and specifically how it relates to like kids.

1881
01:44:11,720 --> 01:44:14,480
Speaker 9: But I honestly don't see this as a very effective

1882
01:44:15,360 --> 01:44:17,240
Speaker 9: messaging for heritage.

1883
01:44:17,520 --> 01:44:19,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it is that, like.

1884
01:44:20,560 --> 01:44:23,160
Speaker 10: It's that pathway to hate thing, you know that, like

1885
01:44:23,880 --> 01:44:26,160
Speaker 10: your grandchild has a nose pacing? How do you deal

1886
01:44:26,200 --> 01:44:30,639
Speaker 10: with this? Yes, that like it. It's it's not if

1887
01:44:30,680 --> 01:44:32,519
Speaker 10: you come at it too hard, people are going to

1888
01:44:32,560 --> 01:44:33,240
Speaker 10: be like what the fuck?

1889
01:44:33,479 --> 01:44:35,280
Speaker 3: But it gets people there.

1890
01:44:35,840 --> 01:44:36,360
Speaker 8: Yeah.

1891
01:44:36,479 --> 01:44:38,479
Speaker 9: I also want to go over this because like we're

1892
01:44:38,479 --> 01:44:42,639
Speaker 9: gonna be entering the holiday season pretty soon, so whatever

1893
01:44:42,880 --> 01:44:48,080
Speaker 9: whatever Thanksgiving or Christmas dinners you're forced to attend. Yeah,

1894
01:44:48,120 --> 01:44:50,160
Speaker 9: you know, if if people start talking with that kind

1895
01:44:50,200 --> 01:44:53,000
Speaker 9: of stuff, it's probably gonna be claims that are similar

1896
01:44:53,040 --> 01:44:54,840
Speaker 9: to some of the stuff in here. And these things

1897
01:44:54,880 --> 01:44:57,280
Speaker 9: are like very easy to like research, especially all of

1898
01:44:57,280 --> 01:45:00,280
Speaker 9: the like puberty blocking stuff like that. There's the it's

1899
01:45:00,280 --> 01:45:02,600
Speaker 9: so easy to be like this just isn't true, And

1900
01:45:02,680 --> 01:45:04,320
Speaker 9: most of them just have no idea because if the

1901
01:45:04,360 --> 01:45:06,360
Speaker 9: information they're getting is in line with this kind of thing.

1902
01:45:06,880 --> 01:45:09,559
Speaker 9: It is just an alternate reality that that they are

1903
01:45:09,600 --> 01:45:12,000
Speaker 9: living in. Yeah, and some of them are fueled by

1904
01:45:12,080 --> 01:45:14,080
Speaker 9: like actual ideological hatred, and some of them are just

1905
01:45:14,120 --> 01:45:16,120
Speaker 9: actually legitimately just like misinformed.

1906
01:45:16,479 --> 01:45:17,639
Speaker 3: And that's something.

1907
01:45:17,840 --> 01:45:19,600
Speaker 9: I can't tell you how your family thinks, because I

1908
01:45:19,880 --> 01:45:22,600
Speaker 9: don't know your family, but it is it is a

1909
01:45:22,600 --> 01:45:24,960
Speaker 9: good thing to to like keep in mind that there

1910
01:45:25,000 --> 01:45:27,280
Speaker 9: is ways to talk about some of the sort of things.

1911
01:45:27,640 --> 01:45:29,719
Speaker 9: There's also if you just want to avoid it, avoid

1912
01:45:29,760 --> 01:45:33,479
Speaker 9: it all together and play Nintendo in the basement during

1913
01:45:33,479 --> 01:45:35,160
Speaker 9: Thanksgiving dinner with your cousins.

1914
01:45:35,160 --> 01:45:35,679
Speaker 3: That's also.

1915
01:45:36,400 --> 01:45:41,320
Speaker 9: Yeah, sometimes the move yeap support that. Well, this has

1916
01:45:41,360 --> 01:45:44,960
Speaker 9: been exciting. We will see you again probably tomorrow for

1917
01:45:45,120 --> 01:45:47,400
Speaker 9: more breaking news.

1918
01:45:50,560 --> 01:45:53,519
Speaker 3: And it is news that breaks you slowly of time.

1919
01:45:53,640 --> 01:45:56,519
Speaker 3: That is that is our demo, News that breaks you.

1920
01:45:56,720 --> 01:46:24,479
Speaker 10: Yeah, Hi everyone, and welcome to it could happen here.

1921
01:46:24,800 --> 01:46:28,320
Speaker 10: I'm James and today I am joined by Billy Ford

1922
01:46:28,479 --> 01:46:30,440
Speaker 10: from the United States Institute Piece.

1923
01:46:30,920 --> 01:46:33,240
Speaker 3: Third time podcast guest Billy, how many.

1924
01:46:33,160 --> 01:46:34,080
Speaker 7: Think it's my second?

1925
01:46:34,320 --> 01:46:35,240
Speaker 3: Thanks for second?

1926
01:46:35,280 --> 01:46:39,720
Speaker 10: Okay, Yeah, well I'll give you a bonus one. Yeah,

1927
01:46:39,720 --> 01:46:43,280
Speaker 10: and we're here to discuss the revolution in me Emma

1928
01:46:44,000 --> 01:46:46,600
Speaker 10: and bring you up to date on conflict stuff and

1929
01:46:47,080 --> 01:46:50,559
Speaker 10: natural disasters stuff and answer some questions people have asked

1930
01:46:50,560 --> 01:46:54,000
Speaker 10: me by emailing me. So, yeah, thanks for joining us, Biddy.

1931
01:46:54,240 --> 01:46:56,599
Speaker 10: We're at another crossroads in the conflicts we talked about

1932
01:46:56,600 --> 01:46:59,240
Speaker 10: before we started recording. Can you preaps explain to folks like,

1933
01:46:59,800 --> 01:47:03,280
Speaker 10: what has happened since ten twenty seven Part two?

1934
01:47:03,840 --> 01:47:04,120
Speaker 8: Sure?

1935
01:47:04,360 --> 01:47:07,920
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, I think last time we talked, we

1936
01:47:07,920 --> 01:47:10,799
Speaker 5: were just kind of in the throes of the initial

1937
01:47:10,840 --> 01:47:13,720
Speaker 5: ten twenty seven phase. I mean, I think zooming out

1938
01:47:13,760 --> 01:47:16,800
Speaker 5: for a second, the you know, February twenty twenty one coup,

1939
01:47:17,880 --> 01:47:23,000
Speaker 5: September seventh, twenty twenty one, defensive wars announced and armed

1940
01:47:23,040 --> 01:47:27,160
Speaker 5: resistance really kicks off. And then twenty twenty three October

1941
01:47:27,760 --> 01:47:31,280
Speaker 5: things really escalate. After a few years of steady gains

1942
01:47:31,280 --> 01:47:33,839
Speaker 5: by the resistance, then there was a major level change

1943
01:47:33,920 --> 01:47:38,080
Speaker 5: and the trajectory of the war favoring the resistance forces.

1944
01:47:38,479 --> 01:47:38,679
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1945
01:47:38,720 --> 01:47:41,920
Speaker 5: I think, as you mentioned, there was a second phase

1946
01:47:42,000 --> 01:47:46,600
Speaker 5: of ten twenty seven in July in early August that.

1947
01:47:46,920 --> 01:47:48,920
Speaker 7: Took took things kind of to another level.

1948
01:47:49,160 --> 01:47:53,080
Speaker 5: Although it is kind of just a continuation of a

1949
01:47:53,160 --> 01:47:57,000
Speaker 5: sustained push by the resistance. I think some have perceived

1950
01:47:57,120 --> 01:48:01,000
Speaker 5: these moments of October twenty twenty three, inly August two

1951
01:48:01,080 --> 01:48:05,000
Speaker 5: point four adds real watershed moments. But I think we

1952
01:48:05,080 --> 01:48:09,759
Speaker 5: can see how these are illustrative or broader trends, trends

1953
01:48:09,800 --> 01:48:12,760
Speaker 5: in which the m R military is losing its capability

1954
01:48:12,800 --> 01:48:18,559
Speaker 5: to defend strategic positions, it's inability to counter attack on

1955
01:48:18,640 --> 01:48:22,960
Speaker 5: the resistance side, much greater coordination among resistance armed stakeholders,

1956
01:48:23,400 --> 01:48:27,600
Speaker 5: growing fighting capability, better weapons access, all these sorts of

1957
01:48:27,640 --> 01:48:31,880
Speaker 5: factors that have swung the balance of military power further

1958
01:48:32,040 --> 01:48:35,679
Speaker 5: in the favor of resistance forces. But essentially what happened

1959
01:48:35,680 --> 01:48:39,520
Speaker 5: in July and August was building off of the October advances,

1960
01:48:39,880 --> 01:48:43,160
Speaker 5: the resistance in northern Shan State, not far from the

1961
01:48:43,240 --> 01:48:48,280
Speaker 5: Chinese border, pushed further into central Miandmar in collaboration. This

1962
01:48:48,400 --> 01:48:53,320
Speaker 5: was essentially ethnic based armed organizations collaborating with Bamar People's

1963
01:48:53,320 --> 01:48:56,759
Speaker 5: Defense Forces under the command structure of the National Unity Government,

1964
01:48:57,479 --> 01:49:00,760
Speaker 5: and they have started making advances into sent to Burma.

1965
01:49:00,840 --> 01:49:04,240
Speaker 5: So whereas the initial phase of the war and the

1966
01:49:04,320 --> 01:49:08,439
Speaker 5: enug strategy was to focus on building relationships between the

1967
01:49:08,439 --> 01:49:11,720
Speaker 5: People's Defense forces under their command with ethnic based armed

1968
01:49:11,760 --> 01:49:17,680
Speaker 5: organizations and focusing strategically on the peripheries to build those relationships,

1969
01:49:17,680 --> 01:49:20,680
Speaker 5: to build ethnic buy into the broader revolution, to get

1970
01:49:20,720 --> 01:49:23,920
Speaker 5: access to weapons, and to make SEADI advances. Now we're

1971
01:49:23,960 --> 01:49:27,479
Speaker 5: at a phase where the resistance is pushing into central Meanmar.

1972
01:49:27,600 --> 01:49:30,400
Speaker 5: Now the focus is on the city of Mandalay and

1973
01:49:30,680 --> 01:49:34,960
Speaker 5: central Burma, which is the biggest commercial center of the country.

1974
01:49:35,560 --> 01:49:39,400
Speaker 5: So yeah, I mean this has sparked another phase of

1975
01:49:40,439 --> 01:49:43,360
Speaker 5: I think pressure and anxiety within Napida and the capital

1976
01:49:43,439 --> 01:49:49,439
Speaker 5: among the state Administrative council hunta leadership and more energy

1977
01:49:49,479 --> 01:49:52,080
Speaker 5: on the resistance side, And it's kind of it's it's

1978
01:49:52,080 --> 01:49:55,920
Speaker 5: occurred alongside advances on multiple other fronts. I mean in

1979
01:49:56,240 --> 01:49:59,080
Speaker 5: the very north of the country state, starting in March,

1980
01:49:59,200 --> 01:50:03,160
Speaker 5: the Kachin for has pushed the Memoral military out of it.

1981
01:50:03,240 --> 01:50:06,280
Speaker 5: It was two hundred posts within four months. Similarly in

1982
01:50:06,320 --> 01:50:09,040
Speaker 5: Rakhine State, which I think, well maybe we'll touch on more. Yeah,

1983
01:50:09,160 --> 01:50:11,760
Speaker 5: they are account army has made steady advances. So it's

1984
01:50:11,800 --> 01:50:15,639
Speaker 5: not just in these subregions. It's happening virtually all over

1985
01:50:15,680 --> 01:50:16,639
Speaker 5: the country at this point.

1986
01:50:17,439 --> 01:50:20,800
Speaker 10: Yeah, it does seem and like clearly the essays the

1987
01:50:20,880 --> 01:50:23,160
Speaker 10: Hunter is kind of on the back foot, like it

1988
01:50:23,280 --> 01:50:27,559
Speaker 10: started to forcibly conscript people, which in turn kind of

1989
01:50:27,640 --> 01:50:30,240
Speaker 10: get people a choice between the resistance or the military,

1990
01:50:30,280 --> 01:50:32,600
Speaker 10: and seems like more of them a choosing their resistance.

1991
01:50:33,600 --> 01:50:36,000
Speaker 10: Some of the conscriptions, you know, people can buy out

1992
01:50:36,040 --> 01:50:39,240
Speaker 10: of them, which obviously causes not great for the morale

1993
01:50:39,479 --> 01:50:42,879
Speaker 10: of the population. And that's combined with shortages and inflation.

1994
01:50:43,840 --> 01:50:46,479
Speaker 10: Pretty shit situation for folks living under Hunter.

1995
01:50:46,680 --> 01:50:49,639
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, absolutely, I mean, I think the memor of military.

1996
01:50:49,640 --> 01:50:51,120
Speaker 5: I mean there's a big question here about like the

1997
01:50:51,160 --> 01:50:54,720
Speaker 5: resilience of this mea or military. I mean, frankly in

1998
01:50:55,360 --> 01:50:58,599
Speaker 5: militaries in other countries have collapsed in are much less pressure.

1999
01:50:59,000 --> 01:51:02,000
Speaker 5: So there's a question here about like what is holding

2000
01:51:02,040 --> 01:51:07,040
Speaker 5: this all together, particularly given that its primary resilience factors

2001
01:51:07,120 --> 01:51:11,240
Speaker 5: are heavily degraded. I mean things like it's ideological value.

2002
01:51:11,280 --> 01:51:13,439
Speaker 5: I mean, it's historically been about but we hold the

2003
01:51:13,439 --> 01:51:17,320
Speaker 5: country together, we manage the diversity of this complex country,

2004
01:51:17,600 --> 01:51:22,360
Speaker 5: we defend the Bamar and the Buddhist populations. These factors

2005
01:51:22,400 --> 01:51:24,559
Speaker 5: are no longer credible. I think it's more than one

2006
01:51:24,600 --> 01:51:28,280
Speaker 5: hundred thousand homes in central Burma have been burned to

2007
01:51:28,320 --> 01:51:31,360
Speaker 5: the grounds. Most of those are Bamar Buddhists, and you

2008
01:51:31,400 --> 01:51:33,879
Speaker 5: know someone in the Sanga have risen up. The Buddhist

2009
01:51:33,880 --> 01:51:36,599
Speaker 5: Songa have risen up in protests, including a recent killing

2010
01:51:36,640 --> 01:51:40,200
Speaker 5: of a senior monk. So I think that ideological foundation

2011
01:51:40,400 --> 01:51:43,840
Speaker 5: is totally degraded. The other factors, which are economic, the

2012
01:51:43,840 --> 01:51:47,559
Speaker 5: economic benefits of being in this institution are also withering,

2013
01:51:47,880 --> 01:51:51,000
Speaker 5: as like the entire economy is collapsing as your reference.

2014
01:51:51,160 --> 01:51:53,559
Speaker 5: And then the third component is like the social status

2015
01:51:53,560 --> 01:51:55,559
Speaker 5: that want to cheese through. Being a member of this

2016
01:51:55,680 --> 01:51:59,000
Speaker 5: institution used to be a place where you could get

2017
01:51:59,040 --> 01:52:02,559
Speaker 5: economic benefits and social benefits, and now it's really neither.

2018
01:52:02,600 --> 01:52:07,520
Speaker 5: I mean, you're reviled or a target for resistance assassination

2019
01:52:07,600 --> 01:52:10,479
Speaker 5: if you're affiliated with the institution. So I think the

2020
01:52:10,600 --> 01:52:12,759
Speaker 5: question remains as so like what are the key factors

2021
01:52:12,800 --> 01:52:15,320
Speaker 5: keeping it in place given all of these pressures that

2022
01:52:15,360 --> 01:52:17,720
Speaker 5: it's facing. And happy to go into that, but I

2023
01:52:17,720 --> 01:52:22,160
Speaker 5: think there it's an interesting case study in institutional resilience

2024
01:52:22,439 --> 01:52:26,160
Speaker 5: and the challenges faced by a resistance movement that has

2025
01:52:26,479 --> 01:52:30,280
Speaker 5: major resource constraints and you're fighting up against a military

2026
01:52:30,320 --> 01:52:36,600
Speaker 5: institution that has learned how to orchestrate and sustain authoritarian

2027
01:52:37,080 --> 01:52:39,280
Speaker 5: governance structures for decades.

2028
01:52:39,439 --> 01:52:42,479
Speaker 10: So yeah, yeah, yeah, I think we can maybe circle

2029
01:52:42,520 --> 01:52:44,320
Speaker 10: back to that. One thing I did want to talk

2030
01:52:44,360 --> 01:52:46,799
Speaker 10: about before we move on to talking about what's happening

2031
01:52:46,800 --> 01:52:48,960
Speaker 10: in recind State, is I wanted to talk about the

2032
01:52:49,000 --> 01:52:52,240
Speaker 10: recent flooding that people will have probably seen if they

2033
01:52:53,000 --> 01:52:56,320
Speaker 10: have these friends on social media or keep it keep

2034
01:52:56,320 --> 01:52:59,479
Speaker 10: an eye on publications in a region. Can you explain

2035
01:52:59,520 --> 01:53:01,280
Speaker 10: a little bit of about like the scale of the

2036
01:53:01,320 --> 01:53:05,240
Speaker 10: flooding and it absolutely bungled, if any response from NAPE

2037
01:53:05,320 --> 01:53:06,080
Speaker 10: door Sure.

2038
01:53:06,280 --> 01:53:08,439
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think the latest figures that I've seen were

2039
01:53:08,479 --> 01:53:11,679
Speaker 5: one hundred and sixty thousand displaced, six hundred and thirty

2040
01:53:12,360 --> 01:53:15,440
Speaker 5: affected by the floods, two one hundred.

2041
01:53:15,200 --> 01:53:18,040
Speaker 7: And thirty dead, and seventy missing. I think that's what

2042
01:53:18,080 --> 01:53:18,800
Speaker 7: I saw this morning.

2043
01:53:18,800 --> 01:53:20,840
Speaker 5: But yeah, I mean I think that gives you a

2044
01:53:20,880 --> 01:53:25,400
Speaker 5: sense that this is another humanitarian catastrophe on top of

2045
01:53:25,600 --> 01:53:28,559
Speaker 5: a I think what is now rated the second most

2046
01:53:28,560 --> 01:53:31,640
Speaker 5: intent violent conflict in the world by Accolade.

2047
01:53:31,960 --> 01:53:35,080
Speaker 7: So this is just one crisis on top of another.

2048
01:53:35,640 --> 01:53:38,400
Speaker 5: And yeah, as you kind of alluded to, the Memora

2049
01:53:38,400 --> 01:53:42,759
Speaker 5: military is incapable and in unwilling to kind of address

2050
01:53:42,840 --> 01:53:44,720
Speaker 5: the needs here of the population.

2051
01:53:45,280 --> 01:53:47,160
Speaker 7: I mean, the one factor is that they.

2052
01:53:47,040 --> 01:53:50,840
Speaker 5: Don't have territorial control to move resources if they had

2053
01:53:50,880 --> 01:53:52,840
Speaker 5: the political will to provide assistance.

2054
01:53:53,400 --> 01:53:56,040
Speaker 7: But of course they're doing the exact opposite.

2055
01:53:56,160 --> 01:53:58,599
Speaker 5: In some of the most flood affected parts of the country,

2056
01:53:58,960 --> 01:54:01,520
Speaker 5: they are continuing to conduct.

2057
01:54:01,120 --> 01:54:03,680
Speaker 7: Air strikes on civilian populations.

2058
01:54:03,760 --> 01:54:05,960
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean it's it's just kind of a level

2059
01:54:06,000 --> 01:54:09,000
Speaker 5: of brutality that's kind of hard to have them. But yeah,

2060
01:54:09,040 --> 01:54:11,439
Speaker 5: I mean there's all these other kind of ancillary effects

2061
01:54:11,479 --> 01:54:14,439
Speaker 5: of this. I think there's signs of a cholera outbreak

2062
01:54:14,479 --> 01:54:18,320
Speaker 5: and young gone. The economic conditions, as you mentioned a

2063
01:54:18,360 --> 01:54:22,400
Speaker 5: little bit earlier, are horrendous. I mean, like the economy

2064
01:54:22,479 --> 01:54:23,920
Speaker 5: is a lost thirty percent of its value, and it's

2065
01:54:23,920 --> 01:54:26,760
Speaker 5: not a rich country to begin with. Inflation is I

2066
01:54:26,800 --> 01:54:30,120
Speaker 5: think thirty two percent year on year, with the memoar

2067
01:54:30,280 --> 01:54:33,880
Speaker 5: Chat having lost two hundred percent of its value, I mean, yeah,

2068
01:54:33,920 --> 01:54:34,320
Speaker 5: it's two.

2069
01:54:34,280 --> 01:54:37,480
Speaker 7: Hundred percent less value than it was. Yeah, So this

2070
01:54:37,640 --> 01:54:39,600
Speaker 7: is like, you know, it's.

2071
01:54:39,400 --> 01:54:43,240
Speaker 5: Just one catastrophe on top of another, and it's really

2072
01:54:43,280 --> 01:54:47,760
Speaker 5: testing the memur public's capacity to kind of support one another,

2073
01:54:47,960 --> 01:54:51,400
Speaker 5: which is that's really been the incredible story here, and

2074
01:54:51,400 --> 01:54:53,960
Speaker 5: it's not the first time that the Memmour military, the

2075
01:54:54,000 --> 01:54:58,040
Speaker 5: governing stakeholder, has failed to meet the needs, and that

2076
01:54:58,120 --> 01:55:01,640
Speaker 5: moment of crisis. Of course, Psycho Nargis, one of the

2077
01:55:01,640 --> 01:55:06,560
Speaker 5: worst natural disasters in the region's history, was another instance

2078
01:55:06,560 --> 01:55:10,200
Speaker 5: in which the memor military refused international assistance and kind

2079
01:55:10,240 --> 01:55:14,920
Speaker 5: of instrumentalized humanitarian catastrophe for political aims.

2080
01:55:15,720 --> 01:55:15,960
Speaker 8: Yeah.

2081
01:55:16,040 --> 01:55:18,400
Speaker 10: Yeah, and I think people it's worth reading up on

2082
01:55:18,440 --> 01:55:21,200
Speaker 10: that if you're interested in like the sort of longer

2083
01:55:21,320 --> 01:55:24,840
Speaker 10: term history of the conflict and of sort of the

2084
01:55:24,880 --> 01:55:27,320
Speaker 10: military and Memma. Maybe now it's a good time to

2085
01:55:27,320 --> 01:55:29,000
Speaker 10: take a break and we'll come back and discuss a

2086
01:55:29,040 --> 01:55:30,879
Speaker 10: little bit about Rakine State.

2087
01:55:40,320 --> 01:55:41,760
Speaker 3: And we're back, okay.

2088
01:55:42,160 --> 01:55:46,440
Speaker 10: So I think if people follow the conflict, they will

2089
01:55:46,480 --> 01:55:50,200
Speaker 10: have probably seen like a series of conflicting and confusing

2090
01:55:50,920 --> 01:55:53,480
Speaker 10: articles and messages about what's going on.

2091
01:55:53,640 --> 01:55:54,400
Speaker 3: In Rakind today.

2092
01:55:54,440 --> 01:55:57,680
Speaker 10: And some of that is because there's not a great

2093
01:55:57,720 --> 01:56:00,760
Speaker 10: deal of reporting in the English language, deal of sources

2094
01:56:00,760 --> 01:56:03,320
Speaker 10: in the English language, and even if there is, that

2095
01:56:03,400 --> 01:56:05,560
Speaker 10: none of us can really make it to Rakine State

2096
01:56:05,640 --> 01:56:08,240
Speaker 10: right now. Going through Bangladesh would be quite quite a

2097
01:56:08,320 --> 01:56:12,400
Speaker 10: challenging thing to do at this time, and so I

2098
01:56:12,400 --> 01:56:15,080
Speaker 10: guess we should start breaking down if people aren't aware

2099
01:56:15,640 --> 01:56:17,560
Speaker 10: the people who live and have lived for a long

2100
01:56:17,600 --> 01:56:20,040
Speaker 10: time in Racine State and the conflicts have fixed it

2101
01:56:20,280 --> 01:56:21,760
Speaker 10: between them and the Burmese state.

2102
01:56:22,160 --> 01:56:22,920
Speaker 7: Sure yeah, I.

2103
01:56:22,920 --> 01:56:26,400
Speaker 5: Mean ro Kinda State borders Bangladesh on the western side

2104
01:56:26,440 --> 01:56:30,560
Speaker 5: of your marts along coastal border as well, and the

2105
01:56:30,600 --> 01:56:34,160
Speaker 5: site of some of the largest extractive oil and gas projects,

2106
01:56:34,160 --> 01:56:37,200
Speaker 5: including the terminal for a major gas pipeline that feeds

2107
01:56:37,240 --> 01:56:41,120
Speaker 5: fourteen percent of u Non Province's GP, So it has

2108
01:56:41,520 --> 01:56:42,680
Speaker 5: huge strategic value.

2109
01:56:42,720 --> 01:56:45,360
Speaker 7: It's also China's aiming.

2110
01:56:45,040 --> 01:56:49,560
Speaker 5: To kind of access the Indian Ocean and circumvent the

2111
01:56:49,600 --> 01:56:53,160
Speaker 5: Strait of Malacca by going directly to this kind of

2112
01:56:53,240 --> 01:56:59,200
Speaker 5: regional the country, so it's highly strategically important. But it's

2113
01:56:59,240 --> 01:57:02,360
Speaker 5: also I think it's the second poorest state in the

2114
01:57:02,520 --> 01:57:05,680
Speaker 5: entire country and arguably the most conflict affected.

2115
01:57:05,720 --> 01:57:07,760
Speaker 7: At least since twenty twelve ish.

2116
01:57:08,240 --> 01:57:12,840
Speaker 5: So the population of rakind State is highly diverse, kind

2117
01:57:12,880 --> 01:57:15,880
Speaker 5: of the last year to have the broader countries demographics.

2118
01:57:16,040 --> 01:57:19,400
Speaker 5: It includes a Bamar population, which is the dominant ethnic

2119
01:57:19,400 --> 01:57:22,920
Speaker 5: group at the national level. The ethnic majority is kind

2120
01:57:23,520 --> 01:57:27,840
Speaker 5: there's I mean, historically a very large Muslim population of

2121
01:57:27,920 --> 01:57:31,960
Speaker 5: Rawhinjo Muslims primarily, but also other Muslim minority groups including

2122
01:57:32,000 --> 01:57:36,400
Speaker 5: Kaman Muslims, and then a number of other smaller ethnic

2123
01:57:36,520 --> 01:57:40,680
Speaker 5: minority groups Mramaji, Kami and others, as well as a

2124
01:57:40,680 --> 01:57:42,520
Speaker 5: small Hindu population. So you can kind of get the

2125
01:57:42,560 --> 01:57:46,240
Speaker 5: sense that this is a highly diverse space. I mean,

2126
01:57:46,280 --> 01:57:50,320
Speaker 5: many of the listeners will have heard twenty sixteen twenty seventeen,

2127
01:57:50,680 --> 01:57:53,520
Speaker 5: Go was the site of a massive clearance operation and

2128
01:57:53,560 --> 01:57:57,600
Speaker 5: the genocide of Rhinja Muslims, about seven hundred and fifty

2129
01:57:57,600 --> 01:58:00,440
Speaker 5: thousand of whom were pushed into Bangladesh, and all of

2130
01:58:00,440 --> 01:58:02,160
Speaker 5: them are still there.

2131
01:58:02,280 --> 01:58:05,160
Speaker 7: Inhabiting the largest refugee camp in the world.

2132
01:58:05,480 --> 01:58:10,640
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean overall conditions for the Hinja, It's hard

2133
01:58:10,680 --> 01:58:16,520
Speaker 5: to imagine a more difficult set of conditions. The Bangladesh

2134
01:58:16,680 --> 01:58:21,800
Speaker 5: government is quite impatient, having hosted many hundreds of thousands

2135
01:58:21,840 --> 01:58:25,280
Speaker 5: of Arhinja, some for seven years but others for actually

2136
01:58:25,320 --> 01:58:28,480
Speaker 5: for much longer than that. As twenty sixteen twenty seventeen

2137
01:58:28,680 --> 01:58:31,720
Speaker 5: was a moment in a genocide, but there have been

2138
01:58:31,760 --> 01:58:36,280
Speaker 5: instances of memoir military atrocities against the Hindu population dating

2139
01:58:36,280 --> 01:58:38,760
Speaker 5: back to the nineteen seventies as well. So this is

2140
01:58:38,800 --> 01:58:42,360
Speaker 5: a long term kind of situation in which the Bangladesh

2141
01:58:42,400 --> 01:58:45,240
Speaker 5: have been hosting Rehinja And yeah, I mean I think

2142
01:58:45,280 --> 01:58:49,120
Speaker 5: conditions in those camps are really really challenging. The major

2143
01:58:49,160 --> 01:58:51,760
Speaker 5: issue now is the arising and security in the camps,

2144
01:58:51,800 --> 01:58:56,800
Speaker 5: as some Rhinja militia groups have gained ascendency in the camps,

2145
01:58:57,120 --> 01:58:59,720
Speaker 5: most of which have very little public support.

2146
01:59:00,040 --> 01:59:01,680
Speaker 7: Population should be noted.

2147
01:59:02,160 --> 01:59:05,800
Speaker 5: The major dynamic that that's happened recently, I mean the

2148
01:59:05,920 --> 01:59:10,080
Speaker 5: Arakan Army, which is almost entirely of Kine ethnic groups

2149
01:59:10,120 --> 01:59:13,160
Speaker 5: and has broad public support among the Rakaine population of

2150
01:59:13,240 --> 01:59:17,560
Speaker 5: Rikine State, has made massive advances across Rakine State and

2151
01:59:17,600 --> 01:59:20,680
Speaker 5: now controls virtually all of northern Rakine State and is

2152
01:59:20,720 --> 01:59:25,040
Speaker 5: pushing south. It took the city of Tondue and the airport,

2153
01:59:25,080 --> 01:59:27,800
Speaker 5: which is the first time a resistance group had taken

2154
01:59:28,080 --> 01:59:31,000
Speaker 5: an airport. It recently took a naval base, the first

2155
01:59:31,000 --> 01:59:32,800
Speaker 5: time that has ever happened in the history of the

2156
01:59:32,880 --> 01:59:36,160
Speaker 5: Memory military. And now it's pushing as far south as Guas,

2157
01:59:36,800 --> 01:59:39,480
Speaker 5: potentially threatening to control the entire state.

2158
01:59:39,840 --> 01:59:41,520
Speaker 7: So as this has.

2159
01:59:41,400 --> 01:59:45,720
Speaker 5: Occurred, the MIMR military is in a state of complete panic,

2160
01:59:46,040 --> 01:59:50,000
Speaker 5: and as it is losing forces on this front but

2161
01:59:50,120 --> 01:59:53,880
Speaker 5: also on numerous other fronts, it has attempted to kind

2162
01:59:53,880 --> 01:59:57,400
Speaker 5: of buttress its forces through force conscription and in the

2163
01:59:57,480 --> 02:00:02,000
Speaker 5: most potentially the most horrifying move, it is forcibly conscripted

2164
02:00:02,320 --> 02:00:07,320
Speaker 5: the Rowhinja into the MR military. They conducted genocide against

2165
02:00:07,320 --> 02:00:09,840
Speaker 5: the Rhinda population and now they are forcing them to

2166
02:00:09,880 --> 02:00:12,880
Speaker 5: wear the uniform of their genocider. It's kind of a

2167
02:00:13,040 --> 02:00:17,960
Speaker 5: level of horror that's hard to understand. And one way

2168
02:00:17,960 --> 02:00:22,600
Speaker 5: in which they've undertaken this effort is by collaborating with

2169
02:00:22,800 --> 02:00:27,880
Speaker 5: Rehindra militia forces including ARSA, the Salvation Army and the

2170
02:00:27,960 --> 02:00:31,560
Speaker 5: Rhindra Saldarity Organization ARSO, which have presence in the camps

2171
02:00:31,640 --> 02:00:35,520
Speaker 5: and have been facilitating recruitment from the camps. So the

2172
02:00:35,560 --> 02:00:38,480
Speaker 5: primary aim here as a military one, but a secondary aim,

2173
02:00:38,480 --> 02:00:43,600
Speaker 5: which is really critical it is undermining inter cohesion in

2174
02:00:43,840 --> 02:00:48,200
Speaker 5: kind state because ultimately, like the MR military operates through coercion,

2175
02:00:48,280 --> 02:00:51,400
Speaker 5: force and violence, but also through fragmentation so that it

2176
02:00:51,440 --> 02:00:55,000
Speaker 5: doesn't face a unified resistance, and in this case they

2177
02:00:55,040 --> 02:00:59,560
Speaker 5: want to incite instability by creating hatred between the Rhindra

2178
02:00:59,640 --> 02:01:02,880
Speaker 5: and in population and building off of the vitriol that

2179
02:01:03,560 --> 02:01:06,600
Speaker 5: had built over decades. So this is kind of a

2180
02:01:06,640 --> 02:01:09,840
Speaker 5: new paradigm that everyone is trying to better understand.

2181
02:01:10,240 --> 02:01:12,840
Speaker 7: But yeah, it's it's kind of a new level of horror.

2182
02:01:13,640 --> 02:01:16,000
Speaker 10: Yeah, and it's particularly horrific. As you say, I think

2183
02:01:16,040 --> 02:01:19,880
Speaker 10: sometimes there's a tendency, especially with people who perhaps are

2184
02:01:19,920 --> 02:01:22,400
Speaker 10: not as familiar with the situation and history there, to

2185
02:01:22,520 --> 02:01:25,680
Speaker 10: lump ethnic groups in as sort of monolithic actors, right

2186
02:01:25,760 --> 02:01:28,640
Speaker 10: or homogeneous to be like, Okay, so they're a hinja

2187
02:01:28,760 --> 02:01:32,000
Speaker 10: as represented by Arsa and the rso have joined the Hunter,

2188
02:01:32,400 --> 02:01:35,920
Speaker 10: which is not the case. Like every Rhina person I

2189
02:01:35,920 --> 02:01:39,440
Speaker 10: speak to, everyone I speak to in Cox's Bizarre shares

2190
02:01:39,760 --> 02:01:43,640
Speaker 10: a loathing for those organizations. They're forced conscription of young people,

2191
02:01:44,280 --> 02:01:46,560
Speaker 10: and yeah, their solidarity with the Hunter that committed the

2192
02:01:46,560 --> 02:01:49,120
Speaker 10: genocide against and it continues to commit a genocide against

2193
02:01:49,120 --> 02:01:52,320
Speaker 10: these people. And I think the first thing we need

2194
02:01:52,320 --> 02:01:54,720
Speaker 10: to do is move away from that kind of homogeneous perspective.

2195
02:01:54,760 --> 02:01:58,040
Speaker 10: But maybe we could explain there have been a few

2196
02:01:58,360 --> 02:02:05,120
Speaker 10: accusations of the arkon Omy making attacks against a range

2197
02:02:05,160 --> 02:02:07,960
Speaker 10: of people, right range of specifically Raine of people who

2198
02:02:08,000 --> 02:02:10,720
Speaker 10: are not armed, who are not part of ours are. Yeah,

2199
02:02:10,920 --> 02:02:13,080
Speaker 10: can you explain what we know and what we don't

2200
02:02:13,120 --> 02:02:13,720
Speaker 10: know there?

2201
02:02:14,120 --> 02:02:14,440
Speaker 8: Sure?

2202
02:02:14,560 --> 02:02:16,960
Speaker 7: Yeah, I think there's just to start.

2203
02:02:17,040 --> 02:02:20,920
Speaker 5: There is a massive fog of war in Rekind state,

2204
02:02:21,000 --> 02:02:23,680
Speaker 5: may be worse than any other part of the country,

2205
02:02:23,800 --> 02:02:27,800
Speaker 5: so it is really difficult to disentangle fact from fiction here.

2206
02:02:27,840 --> 02:02:31,240
Speaker 5: But I think there's pretty credible evidence that the army

2207
02:02:31,680 --> 02:02:36,280
Speaker 5: have committed atrosities against Rahinda civilian populations. In early August,

2208
02:02:36,320 --> 02:02:39,280
Speaker 5: there was a specific incident in which hundreds of Rahina

2209
02:02:39,320 --> 02:02:44,000
Speaker 5: were killed in a drone strike, and Fortified Rights, which

2210
02:02:44,040 --> 02:02:48,480
Speaker 5: is a human rights organization, conducted investigation to the incident

2211
02:02:49,040 --> 02:02:52,040
Speaker 5: and asserts that the Arkon Army was responsible for that.

2212
02:02:52,560 --> 02:02:56,600
Speaker 5: Of course, the AA disputes these claims. And I think

2213
02:02:56,600 --> 02:02:59,360
Speaker 5: there's a few recent interviews with the commander in chief

2214
02:02:59,680 --> 02:03:03,960
Speaker 5: of the army to nine where you know, he articulates

2215
02:03:04,040 --> 02:03:05,600
Speaker 5: the side of the story, which you can find on

2216
02:03:05,680 --> 02:03:08,600
Speaker 5: Irwadi dot com and I think in a few other

2217
02:03:08,640 --> 02:03:09,320
Speaker 5: news outlets.

2218
02:03:09,640 --> 02:03:12,120
Speaker 10: Yeah, the diplomat did one as well. He's been on

2219
02:03:12,160 --> 02:03:14,600
Speaker 10: a publicity tour, I guess recently.

2220
02:03:15,040 --> 02:03:16,000
Speaker 7: Yeah, absolutely.

2221
02:03:16,360 --> 02:03:18,560
Speaker 10: I don't know if you've seen this, but like his

2222
02:03:18,560 --> 02:03:23,680
Speaker 10: his tendency to cool hinder people bangladeshis it is unfortunate

2223
02:03:23,840 --> 02:03:25,880
Speaker 10: given that that's a language that was used to justify

2224
02:03:25,920 --> 02:03:27,440
Speaker 10: the genocide.

2225
02:03:26,960 --> 02:03:29,800
Speaker 5: Right, absolutely, Yeah, it reflects kind of the language that

2226
02:03:29,840 --> 02:03:31,240
Speaker 5: the Memora military used.

2227
02:03:31,280 --> 02:03:34,839
Speaker 3: Well, Bengali's he'll call them exactly. Yeah, it's very reflective

2228
02:03:34,840 --> 02:03:35,040
Speaker 3: of that.

2229
02:03:35,320 --> 02:03:35,600
Speaker 7: Yeah.

2230
02:03:35,600 --> 02:03:38,440
Speaker 5: So this is really challenging, and part because I think

2231
02:03:38,480 --> 02:03:41,640
Speaker 5: that there is kind of an important distinction between the

2232
02:03:41,680 --> 02:03:43,960
Speaker 5: Metamora military and the ark Army in this case, in

2233
02:03:44,000 --> 02:03:47,200
Speaker 5: part because the ar Army has like raw public support

2234
02:03:47,440 --> 02:03:51,520
Speaker 5: among the kind public, and so it has a more

2235
02:03:51,560 --> 02:03:55,640
Speaker 5: of a legitimate stake to governance than the Memora military,

2236
02:03:55,680 --> 02:03:58,000
Speaker 5: which has none. And so this is it's kind of

2237
02:03:58,080 --> 02:04:02,440
Speaker 5: an issue that requires a tension and an honest accounting

2238
02:04:02,520 --> 02:04:07,000
Speaker 5: of the facts and a long process of reconciliation or

2239
02:04:07,080 --> 02:04:09,080
Speaker 5: because of the ark On Army is likely there to

2240
02:04:09,200 --> 02:04:12,960
Speaker 5: stay as a governing stakeholder. So that is a really

2241
02:04:13,040 --> 02:04:15,000
Speaker 5: tricky kind of set of conditions.

2242
02:04:15,200 --> 02:04:18,400
Speaker 7: And the other side of this is that the rekined public.

2243
02:04:18,480 --> 02:04:21,280
Speaker 5: I think there is a deep sense of a grievance

2244
02:04:21,480 --> 02:04:23,760
Speaker 5: among the rekind public, and this is a population that

2245
02:04:23,800 --> 02:04:29,360
Speaker 5: has also faced years of intense political alienation and persecution.

2246
02:04:29,040 --> 02:04:30,800
Speaker 7: Not to mention war and violence.

2247
02:04:31,480 --> 02:04:33,760
Speaker 5: You know, last year when Cyclo and Moca hit the

2248
02:04:33,880 --> 02:04:37,760
Speaker 5: Kind State, the Memora military did virtually nothing to help them.

2249
02:04:37,920 --> 02:04:41,280
Speaker 5: So it's a population with legitimate agrievances and they and

2250
02:04:41,360 --> 02:04:44,320
Speaker 5: their perception is that the international community only focuses on

2251
02:04:44,760 --> 02:04:46,200
Speaker 5: the revent of public's well being.

2252
02:04:46,600 --> 02:04:48,040
Speaker 7: And I think the international community can.

2253
02:04:47,960 --> 02:04:50,720
Speaker 5: Do a better job of showing sympathy for the rekined

2254
02:04:50,760 --> 02:04:54,000
Speaker 5: public's interests. I think sympathy is not like zero sum

2255
02:04:54,040 --> 02:04:56,040
Speaker 5: in that sense, and that needs to be done better.

2256
02:04:56,360 --> 02:05:00,880
Speaker 5: But honestly, like the equating a grievances is also really

2257
02:05:01,040 --> 02:05:03,320
Speaker 5: kind of unfair and dishonest. And you know, this Hindu

2258
02:05:03,400 --> 02:05:08,360
Speaker 5: population is marginalized to just such an extreme degree.

2259
02:05:08,640 --> 02:05:10,880
Speaker 7: And so those are a really interesting report by Doctors

2260
02:05:10,920 --> 02:05:11,760
Speaker 7: Without Borders not.

2261
02:05:11,720 --> 02:05:14,360
Speaker 5: Too long ago it that showed that only like six

2262
02:05:14,440 --> 02:05:17,320
Speaker 5: hundred thousand of the two point eight million Rahinja in

2263
02:05:17,360 --> 02:05:20,760
Speaker 5: the world within MR, fifty seven percent are living in

2264
02:05:20,800 --> 02:05:24,880
Speaker 5: camps and Bangladesh or in IDP camps in Memr. So

2265
02:05:24,920 --> 02:05:28,120
Speaker 5: it's like there's just like a highly vulnerable population that

2266
02:05:28,160 --> 02:05:30,000
Speaker 5: has experienced genocide.

2267
02:05:30,120 --> 02:05:33,040
Speaker 7: You know, it's like there are there's a power imbalance, you.

2268
02:05:32,960 --> 02:05:34,880
Speaker 3: Know, So it's like, I think it's not the same.

2269
02:05:35,240 --> 02:05:35,680
Speaker 7: I don't know.

2270
02:05:35,920 --> 02:05:41,240
Speaker 5: The whole process of kind Rhinda reconciliation is one that

2271
02:05:41,320 --> 02:05:45,200
Speaker 5: deserves immediate and urgent attention, but there's also a long

2272
02:05:45,280 --> 02:05:49,240
Speaker 5: term process of constructing, you know, a governance structure that

2273
02:05:49,400 --> 02:05:52,560
Speaker 5: is acceptable and that's not a highly exclusionary of Rhinda

2274
02:05:52,640 --> 02:05:55,240
Speaker 5: and these sorts of things. So it's a it's a

2275
02:05:55,280 --> 02:05:57,920
Speaker 5: highly and beyond the fact that like we need more

2276
02:05:58,200 --> 02:06:02,760
Speaker 5: a deliberate investigation these incidents, I think a broader conversational

2277
02:06:02,800 --> 02:06:05,320
Speaker 5: reconciliation and justice needs to needs to take place.

2278
02:06:05,800 --> 02:06:08,520
Speaker 10: Yeah, and it's definitely one at least, you know, I

2279
02:06:08,520 --> 02:06:10,440
Speaker 10: speak to people who are probably on the more progressive

2280
02:06:10,520 --> 02:06:14,120
Speaker 10: side of the resistance, and it's one that they've acknowledged,

2281
02:06:14,160 --> 02:06:16,120
Speaker 10: like it's something that they need to address and kind

2282
02:06:16,120 --> 02:06:21,120
Speaker 10: of the litmus test for like a post hunter me

2283
02:06:21,280 --> 02:06:23,480
Speaker 10: and Mars, like are there places for these people who

2284
02:06:23,520 --> 02:06:26,440
Speaker 10: they weren't places for in this state before? But yeah,

2285
02:06:26,640 --> 02:06:29,800
Speaker 10: how we get there is it's difficult, and I don't

2286
02:06:29,800 --> 02:06:32,360
Speaker 10: think that's not that's not a clear pathway that anyone's

2287
02:06:32,440 --> 02:06:34,880
Speaker 10: kind of pointed to this yet Yeah.

2288
02:06:34,920 --> 02:06:37,440
Speaker 5: The one thing I would add is like this is

2289
02:06:37,520 --> 02:06:42,080
Speaker 5: sort of emblematic of broader perceptions of MEMR and approaches

2290
02:06:42,120 --> 02:06:44,880
Speaker 5: to peace building a MEMR is that there's there's often

2291
02:06:44,920 --> 02:06:47,160
Speaker 5: a horizontal approach that like we need to work on

2292
02:06:47,200 --> 02:06:51,680
Speaker 5: the intercommunal level, individual level trust building that sort of thing,

2293
02:06:51,920 --> 02:06:54,000
Speaker 5: And I think there is a place for that for sure.

2294
02:06:54,440 --> 02:06:57,760
Speaker 5: But we've done a couple of pieces of research with

2295
02:06:57,880 --> 02:07:01,080
Speaker 5: an academic at ug Austin who has found some really

2296
02:07:01,080 --> 02:07:03,920
Speaker 5: interesting stuff about like the nature of conflict in the

2297
02:07:03,960 --> 02:07:07,080
Speaker 5: country and nature of cohesion in the country. And she's

2298
02:07:07,120 --> 02:07:10,800
Speaker 5: found including through some experimental research studies and designs which

2299
02:07:10,840 --> 02:07:15,280
Speaker 5: are quite revealing. I think that national identity is often

2300
02:07:15,840 --> 02:07:20,040
Speaker 5: more important to respondence in her surveys than ethnic identity,

2301
02:07:20,400 --> 02:07:23,080
Speaker 5: which is which kind of cuts against like the traditional

2302
02:07:23,160 --> 02:07:27,040
Speaker 5: perceptions of how MEMRA is, like, oh, it's this irreconcilable,

2303
02:07:27,040 --> 02:07:30,680
Speaker 5: fractious place and it's so hard to build trust between communities.

2304
02:07:30,200 --> 02:07:31,200
Speaker 7: And that sort of thing.

2305
02:07:31,200 --> 02:07:34,240
Speaker 5: But her research kind of points to the vertical dimension

2306
02:07:34,360 --> 02:07:38,400
Speaker 5: where it's the nature of memorpolitics and the nature of

2307
02:07:38,600 --> 02:07:44,240
Speaker 5: governance structures that highly exclusionary, discriminatory governance structures have sustained

2308
02:07:45,080 --> 02:07:47,520
Speaker 5: conflict for so long in the country, and this is

2309
02:07:47,600 --> 02:07:50,200
Speaker 5: kind of like the main argument for the resistance. You know,

2310
02:07:50,280 --> 02:07:52,640
Speaker 5: it's like a lot of the safeholders, at least a

2311
02:07:52,640 --> 02:07:56,520
Speaker 5: critical mass within this resistance movement, they're trying to assert

2312
02:07:56,560 --> 02:07:59,480
Speaker 5: a new political paradigm in the country, you know, a

2313
02:07:59,520 --> 02:08:03,120
Speaker 5: more state about political paradigm in which the mem R

2314
02:08:03,240 --> 02:08:06,360
Speaker 5: military is not a dominant stakeholder, in which violence is

2315
02:08:06,360 --> 02:08:09,120
Speaker 5: not your source of power, yeah, and which that's not

2316
02:08:09,840 --> 02:08:12,480
Speaker 5: built on exclusionary norms of belonging.

2317
02:08:12,760 --> 02:08:15,120
Speaker 7: So it's like it is generally a revolution.

2318
02:08:14,840 --> 02:08:17,640
Speaker 5: In this sense, and that is why they're they're kind

2319
02:08:17,680 --> 02:08:21,320
Speaker 5: of pushing against the international pressures to enter into a

2320
02:08:21,360 --> 02:08:24,200
Speaker 5: power sharing your dream with the MR military, because there's

2321
02:08:24,240 --> 02:08:26,640
Speaker 5: a perception that if the MEMR military remains in a

2322
02:08:26,680 --> 02:08:30,560
Speaker 5: position of political power, they will interrupt this reform process

2323
02:08:30,920 --> 02:08:33,080
Speaker 5: and then violence will persist.

2324
02:08:32,840 --> 02:08:33,440
Speaker 7: In the country.

2325
02:08:33,880 --> 02:08:34,160
Speaker 3: Yeah.

2326
02:08:34,280 --> 02:08:38,400
Speaker 10: Yeah, And I think that's probably a reasonable assumption to make. Like, again,

2327
02:08:38,440 --> 02:08:40,400
Speaker 10: this is like one of those things that I see

2328
02:08:40,400 --> 02:08:43,440
Speaker 10: a lot in different places in the world where I go, right,

2329
02:08:43,480 --> 02:08:46,400
Speaker 10: that's this tendency to see things, I think from sort

2330
02:08:46,400 --> 02:08:49,160
Speaker 10: of colonial perspective and just be like, oh, these ethnicities

2331
02:08:49,200 --> 02:08:52,320
Speaker 10: will squabble and fight, and like that's not necessarily the

2332
02:08:52,360 --> 02:08:55,000
Speaker 10: case at all, and like if you look even to

2333
02:08:55,200 --> 02:08:57,400
Speaker 10: the PDFs, like I was speaking to someone the other

2334
02:08:57,480 --> 02:09:00,880
Speaker 10: day who was saying, like, there're a job Mostlim women

2335
02:09:01,320 --> 02:09:04,440
Speaker 10: fighting with the Koren right now, which is something that

2336
02:09:04,480 --> 02:09:08,040
Speaker 10: doesn't align up with this idea of like ethnicities which

2337
02:09:08,040 --> 02:09:10,000
Speaker 10: are clashing and can't combine.

2338
02:09:10,080 --> 02:09:12,080
Speaker 3: And we saw like.

2339
02:09:12,200 --> 02:09:16,880
Speaker 10: A statement of solidarity from the Kareni to the Kurdish people,

2340
02:09:16,920 --> 02:09:19,959
Speaker 10: which doesn't line up with this idea of an inherently

2341
02:09:20,000 --> 02:09:23,839
Speaker 10: Islamophobic like it you know, sort of massive of Buddhist

2342
02:09:23,920 --> 02:09:26,120
Speaker 10: people in the Amma, which I think, yeah, it's a

2343
02:09:26,120 --> 02:09:29,960
Speaker 10: little oversimplified to say that stuff, and I think sometimes reductive,

2344
02:09:30,000 --> 02:09:34,280
Speaker 10: And it's the analysis of mean Mar like as a

2345
02:09:34,320 --> 02:09:39,400
Speaker 10: place where colonialism is still occurring, and the methods of colonialism,

2346
02:09:39,440 --> 02:09:43,480
Speaker 10: like lots of the things you describe right, like promoting fractures,

2347
02:09:44,160 --> 02:09:46,760
Speaker 10: promoting these different ethnic identities which are seen as kind

2348
02:09:46,760 --> 02:09:49,640
Speaker 10: of zero sum and mutually exclusive. These are things that

2349
02:09:49,680 --> 02:09:51,920
Speaker 10: the United Kingdom did or Britain did all around the

2350
02:09:51,960 --> 02:09:56,760
Speaker 10: world for centuries. And it's not rocket science to see

2351
02:09:56,760 --> 02:09:59,800
Speaker 10: how that jumps to another group which especially in some

2352
02:10:00,040 --> 02:10:02,640
Speaker 10: it is was trained by the British or had relations

2353
02:10:02,680 --> 02:10:04,720
Speaker 10: with the British, and you know, to see how we

2354
02:10:04,760 --> 02:10:05,200
Speaker 10: got there.

2355
02:10:05,560 --> 02:10:08,400
Speaker 3: But I think we'll take a little break here.

2356
02:10:08,840 --> 02:10:11,200
Speaker 10: We'll come back and I want to discuss the resilience

2357
02:10:11,240 --> 02:10:13,480
Speaker 10: of the Hunter and how it's hanging on.

2358
02:10:22,200 --> 02:10:23,080
Speaker 3: All right, we're back.

2359
02:10:23,840 --> 02:10:26,880
Speaker 10: So for the last little segment of this podcast, I

2360
02:10:26,920 --> 02:10:31,680
Speaker 10: would like to discuss how the Burmese military is holding

2361
02:10:31,680 --> 02:10:34,880
Speaker 10: onto power. When I speak to soldiers who have defected,

2362
02:10:34,960 --> 02:10:38,520
Speaker 10: I speak, I've spoken to about half a dozen I

2363
02:10:38,560 --> 02:10:41,120
Speaker 10: guess soldiers who have defected over time. It's almost comic

2364
02:10:41,800 --> 02:10:45,840
Speaker 10: how disorganized and chaotic things are, and at the same

2365
02:10:45,920 --> 02:10:48,960
Speaker 10: time it's terrible the way, like every single one of

2366
02:10:49,000 --> 02:10:51,800
Speaker 10: them has described to me that their families are essentially

2367
02:10:51,800 --> 02:10:54,400
Speaker 10: held as collateral to stop them deserting, right, and so

2368
02:10:54,480 --> 02:10:57,600
Speaker 10: they had to work with the civil disobedience movement to

2369
02:10:57,640 --> 02:11:01,480
Speaker 10: first extract their families before they themselves took their weapons

2370
02:11:01,520 --> 02:11:03,120
Speaker 10: in most cases because they get a bounty for their

2371
02:11:03,160 --> 02:11:06,120
Speaker 10: weapons and went to join their resistance or in some

2372
02:11:06,200 --> 02:11:10,720
Speaker 10: cases went into exile. So like, maybe that gives us

2373
02:11:10,760 --> 02:11:14,040
Speaker 10: a good view on how the Hunter is. It's continuing

2374
02:11:14,080 --> 02:11:16,640
Speaker 10: to force people to fight in this war that it's losing.

2375
02:11:16,840 --> 02:11:18,720
Speaker 10: Can you explain a little bit of how they've held

2376
02:11:18,760 --> 02:11:19,360
Speaker 10: onto power?

2377
02:11:19,680 --> 02:11:21,840
Speaker 5: Sure, yeah, I guess the first thing to note is

2378
02:11:21,880 --> 02:11:24,440
Speaker 5: that rates of defection are totally historic.

2379
02:11:24,640 --> 02:11:27,000
Speaker 7: I mean, yeah, there's by.

2380
02:11:26,880 --> 02:11:32,320
Speaker 5: Our account, about fifteen thousand deserters, which is actually not radically.

2381
02:11:32,000 --> 02:11:33,600
Speaker 7: Different than historical norms.

2382
02:11:33,960 --> 02:11:37,360
Speaker 5: The mem or military has comparatively high rates of desertion

2383
02:11:37,560 --> 02:11:41,480
Speaker 5: even before the coup, so that's not far outside of

2384
02:11:42,160 --> 02:11:44,640
Speaker 5: the norm. But the defection, I think there's about fifty

2385
02:11:44,640 --> 02:11:48,200
Speaker 5: eight hundred defectors by our account since the coup, which

2386
02:11:48,240 --> 02:11:52,800
Speaker 5: is unprecedented. There's never never really been defection to resistance

2387
02:11:52,880 --> 02:11:56,760
Speaker 5: in memr's history. The other factor is the number of

2388
02:11:56,960 --> 02:12:00,760
Speaker 5: individuals who are surrendering without a fight with you know,

2389
02:12:00,840 --> 02:12:04,280
Speaker 5: with with putting up little resistance. That number is hard

2390
02:12:04,320 --> 02:12:06,920
Speaker 5: to count, but it's by our by our raid, it

2391
02:12:06,960 --> 02:12:10,560
Speaker 5: seems to be quite high. There's forms of acts of

2392
02:12:10,600 --> 02:12:16,120
Speaker 5: disloyalty occurring that are not you know, spurring institutional collapse,

2393
02:12:16,240 --> 02:12:20,280
Speaker 5: but are that are degrading the memoir of military's fighting capabilities,

2394
02:12:20,280 --> 02:12:20,760
Speaker 5: which is.

2395
02:12:20,680 --> 02:12:23,600
Speaker 7: A really important dynamic. So say that at the outset outset.

2396
02:12:23,840 --> 02:12:25,320
Speaker 5: The other thing i'd say is that, like I think

2397
02:12:25,360 --> 02:12:27,960
Speaker 5: we need to sort of think about this at three levels. So,

2398
02:12:28,080 --> 02:12:33,360
Speaker 5: like the rank and file soldiers, they are significantly demoralized.

2399
02:12:33,600 --> 02:12:36,200
Speaker 5: Most did not join the military to fight. They joined

2400
02:12:36,240 --> 02:12:40,680
Speaker 5: the military for economic stability and for social status, and

2401
02:12:41,040 --> 02:12:45,800
Speaker 5: neither of those are available to them under this military's leadership.

2402
02:12:46,000 --> 02:12:48,960
Speaker 5: They certainly did not join to commit atrocities against the

2403
02:12:49,000 --> 02:12:51,960
Speaker 5: Bamar Buddhist population, which is now what they're enforced to.

2404
02:12:52,080 --> 02:12:55,040
Speaker 5: So I think that population, the large number of rank

2405
02:12:55,040 --> 02:12:58,760
Speaker 5: and file soldiers, is highly demoralized, and that's where you

2406
02:12:58,800 --> 02:13:02,920
Speaker 5: have seen lots of desertion defection, often from the front lines.

2407
02:13:03,000 --> 02:13:06,240
Speaker 5: Though that population's defection desertion is not going to trigger

2408
02:13:06,280 --> 02:13:07,200
Speaker 5: institutional collapse.

2409
02:13:07,680 --> 02:13:10,800
Speaker 7: At the second level, you have like a commander, Core, Major,

2410
02:13:11,360 --> 02:13:12,560
Speaker 7: Major and above.

2411
02:13:12,360 --> 02:13:16,600
Speaker 5: And these I think since Operation ten twenty seven you've

2412
02:13:16,640 --> 02:13:21,720
Speaker 5: seen their morale to drop. And I mean there's been

2413
02:13:22,080 --> 02:13:24,160
Speaker 5: the fall of Last Show and the loss of the

2414
02:13:24,200 --> 02:13:26,760
Speaker 5: Northeast Regional Command, the first time in the Manor's history

2415
02:13:26,760 --> 02:13:29,680
Speaker 5: that a regional command's been taken. That has sent shockways

2416
02:13:29,800 --> 02:13:35,520
Speaker 5: through the commander level. The other thing is that min Onlign,

2417
02:13:35,640 --> 02:13:40,480
Speaker 5: the Commander in chief in his attempt to consolidate power

2418
02:13:40,480 --> 02:13:44,240
Speaker 5: and protect himself from from internal fragmentation.

2419
02:13:44,960 --> 02:13:48,120
Speaker 7: He's rotating commanders.

2420
02:13:47,360 --> 02:13:49,960
Speaker 5: Based on loyalty, not based on effectiveness, which is also

2421
02:13:50,000 --> 02:13:54,000
Speaker 5: degrading the Memora military's fighting capability. But it's also that's

2422
02:13:54,040 --> 02:13:56,200
Speaker 5: maybe one reason why you have seen less acts of

2423
02:13:56,240 --> 02:13:59,680
Speaker 5: disloyalty within that layer at the senior level. I mean

2424
02:13:59,720 --> 02:14:03,920
Speaker 5: most most of those senior Memorr military officials who are

2425
02:14:03,920 --> 02:14:08,440
Speaker 5: based in Apida, I think they until the fall of

2426
02:14:08,520 --> 02:14:12,480
Speaker 5: Latio and the resistance moving into Mandalay, there was relatively

2427
02:14:12,560 --> 02:14:17,480
Speaker 5: high levels of sense of security and morale was okay,

2428
02:14:17,560 --> 02:14:20,400
Speaker 5: I suppose, But the fall of Las SiO and the

2429
02:14:20,560 --> 02:14:25,000
Speaker 5: ensuing events has really inflamed internal frustration from what we understand.

2430
02:14:25,720 --> 02:14:29,840
Speaker 5: So this has also triggered some shifts in the way

2431
02:14:29,840 --> 02:14:33,520
Speaker 5: in which the MEMR military operates its patronage structures. So

2432
02:14:33,840 --> 02:14:36,680
Speaker 5: traditionally the patriot in structure is essentially like a feudal state.

2433
02:14:37,040 --> 02:14:38,960
Speaker 5: I mean, you have like a commander in chief that

2434
02:14:39,080 --> 02:14:43,400
Speaker 5: is extremely powerful, has authority to rotate or fire or

2435
02:14:43,520 --> 02:14:44,640
Speaker 5: arrest virtually anyone.

2436
02:14:44,680 --> 02:14:46,880
Speaker 7: I mean, just huge amounts of powers centralized there.

2437
02:14:47,200 --> 02:14:50,560
Speaker 5: The deputy commander in chief has little capability to challenge

2438
02:14:50,840 --> 02:14:52,960
Speaker 5: the commander in chief's authority. But then you have these

2439
02:14:53,000 --> 02:14:56,879
Speaker 5: regional commanders that operate as feudal lords.

2440
02:14:56,960 --> 02:14:57,920
Speaker 7: At the regional level.

2441
02:14:58,000 --> 02:15:01,320
Speaker 5: They're able to extract huge amount ounts of value or

2442
02:15:01,360 --> 02:15:05,240
Speaker 5: wealth through attractive industries, illegal industries.

2443
02:15:05,160 --> 02:15:06,520
Speaker 7: All with total impunity.

2444
02:15:06,560 --> 02:15:09,640
Speaker 5: But often you know, with the approval of nepidal, and

2445
02:15:09,680 --> 02:15:14,160
Speaker 5: that approval was often just given. Now it's less it's

2446
02:15:14,200 --> 02:15:17,800
Speaker 5: less easily given. I mean, you've seen ninety senior officers

2447
02:15:17,960 --> 02:15:22,400
Speaker 5: shuffled changed positions since the coup, and fifty have been

2448
02:15:22,840 --> 02:15:27,280
Speaker 5: removed or arrested by our tracking, and you've also seen

2449
02:15:27,360 --> 02:15:33,280
Speaker 5: individuals detained and arrested because I think there's fifteen kernels

2450
02:15:33,360 --> 02:15:37,080
Speaker 5: or above, mostly brigadier generals and major generals who have

2451
02:15:37,120 --> 02:15:41,280
Speaker 5: been arrested for business related activities.

2452
02:15:40,680 --> 02:15:43,400
Speaker 7: Which I think is emblematic of like the.

2453
02:15:43,360 --> 02:15:47,480
Speaker 5: Restructuring of the patrinage network and centralizing the patronage network

2454
02:15:47,720 --> 02:15:50,000
Speaker 5: with men online himself. If you do not have his

2455
02:15:50,080 --> 02:15:54,120
Speaker 5: personal approval, you cannot conduct business activities, including these highly

2456
02:15:54,200 --> 02:15:58,280
Speaker 5: lucrative scam operations that are generating billions in value, but

2457
02:15:58,360 --> 02:16:02,680
Speaker 5: also really frustrating that I need. So this whole patient

2458
02:16:02,680 --> 02:16:06,160
Speaker 5: is structure which is critical to sustaining the Memora military

2459
02:16:06,600 --> 02:16:09,040
Speaker 5: is being reoriented, and we'll see whether or not that

2460
02:16:09,080 --> 02:16:12,000
Speaker 5: helps sustain the institution or introduces more instability.

2461
02:16:12,320 --> 02:16:13,920
Speaker 7: But ultimately, the forms.

2462
02:16:13,560 --> 02:16:16,600
Speaker 5: Of resilience I guess you would call it are the

2463
02:16:16,640 --> 02:16:18,200
Speaker 5: ones maybe you pointed to.

2464
02:16:18,280 --> 02:16:21,840
Speaker 7: I mean they're structure. I mean it's like rotating officer.

2465
02:16:21,480 --> 02:16:27,240
Speaker 5: Commanders and senior officers regularly holding families hostage. Essentially, you know,

2466
02:16:27,720 --> 02:16:30,520
Speaker 5: a soldier sent to the front lines, its family remains

2467
02:16:30,520 --> 02:16:33,840
Speaker 5: in the barracks. Payment is often made to the families,

2468
02:16:33,879 --> 02:16:39,000
Speaker 5: not to the front line's soldier, and there's retribution if

2469
02:16:39,040 --> 02:16:41,120
Speaker 5: the frontline soldier defects or deserts.

2470
02:16:41,520 --> 02:16:42,800
Speaker 7: This is also where the fifty eight.

2471
02:16:42,840 --> 02:16:45,800
Speaker 5: Hundred number I mentioned earlier is likely I radical undercounting

2472
02:16:45,879 --> 02:16:49,240
Speaker 5: because and also the fifteen thousand desertions because a lot

2473
02:16:49,240 --> 02:16:52,720
Speaker 5: of people are recorded as KIA when they're.

2474
02:16:52,600 --> 02:16:55,360
Speaker 7: Actually they've deserted or defected.

2475
02:16:55,640 --> 02:16:58,160
Speaker 5: So anyways, I'm not sure if that answers your question,

2476
02:16:58,200 --> 02:17:01,080
Speaker 5: which some thoughts relatively usually Yeah.

2477
02:17:00,800 --> 02:17:02,280
Speaker 3: No, I think it does. Yeah.

2478
02:17:02,360 --> 02:17:04,520
Speaker 10: One of the guys I met with described basically his

2479
02:17:04,840 --> 02:17:09,640
Speaker 10: entire I guess squad went out on a patrol and defected.

2480
02:17:10,000 --> 02:17:12,520
Speaker 10: I guess the PDF have been I had to describe

2481
02:17:12,560 --> 02:17:15,680
Speaker 10: it really, but it's basically shit talking them in their

2482
02:17:15,720 --> 02:17:18,480
Speaker 10: barracks or like in their position for months. Right, They're like,

2483
02:17:18,560 --> 02:17:20,879
Speaker 10: you see this a lot. It's a kind of unique

2484
02:17:20,879 --> 02:17:23,240
Speaker 10: feature of the of the conflict in the MMR, like

2485
02:17:23,320 --> 02:17:26,760
Speaker 10: guys with megaphones just being like, you can surrender if

2486
02:17:26,800 --> 02:17:29,200
Speaker 10: you want. You know, your life is miserable. And I

2487
02:17:29,200 --> 02:17:31,240
Speaker 10: guess in this case it worked. And yeah, they they

2488
02:17:31,240 --> 02:17:33,280
Speaker 10: will be read to as kia they went out in

2489
02:17:33,280 --> 02:17:34,440
Speaker 10: a patrol and never came back.

2490
02:17:34,760 --> 02:17:36,760
Speaker 5: But yeah, I guess the other dynamic is that, like

2491
02:17:37,080 --> 02:17:41,560
Speaker 5: you need to align motivation and opportunity for defection desertion,

2492
02:17:42,280 --> 02:17:45,040
Speaker 5: and the motivation is there in a lot of cases,

2493
02:17:45,080 --> 02:17:49,760
Speaker 5: but opportunity is not. You know. The resistance is committing

2494
02:17:49,840 --> 02:17:53,360
Speaker 5: some resources to this these efforts, but it's really limited

2495
02:17:53,440 --> 02:17:56,840
Speaker 5: given the scale of the challenge. Yeah, there's a lot

2496
02:17:56,840 --> 02:17:59,000
Speaker 5: of factors that need to kind of come together, like

2497
02:17:59,040 --> 02:18:02,640
Speaker 5: the ability to see communicate with resistance, the ability to

2498
02:18:02,760 --> 02:18:05,959
Speaker 5: move into resistance, all the areas of the perception that

2499
02:18:06,000 --> 02:18:10,360
Speaker 5: we were accepted and not phase retribution, the perception that

2500
02:18:10,480 --> 02:18:13,680
Speaker 5: living conditions are acceptable to them. You know, So there's

2501
02:18:13,720 --> 02:18:18,040
Speaker 5: all these conditions and given the costs of defection desertion

2502
02:18:18,120 --> 02:18:22,039
Speaker 5: which could be like major attribution against your family, and

2503
02:18:22,360 --> 02:18:25,240
Speaker 5: deep uncertainty about leaving this institution that is kind of

2504
02:18:25,280 --> 02:18:27,840
Speaker 5: a state within a state. That's why we're not seeing

2505
02:18:27,840 --> 02:18:32,160
Speaker 5: the kind of large scale, commander level defection desertion I think.

2506
02:18:32,560 --> 02:18:32,760
Speaker 11: Right.

2507
02:18:33,200 --> 02:18:35,160
Speaker 10: So, one last thing I wanted to talk about before

2508
02:18:35,160 --> 02:18:38,480
Speaker 10: we finish up. If people, I guess keep tabs on

2509
02:18:38,520 --> 02:18:42,520
Speaker 10: the conflict, they would have seen recently a video. I'm

2510
02:18:42,520 --> 02:18:45,160
Speaker 10: sure you've seen the Kachin Independence Army shooting down in

2511
02:18:45,200 --> 02:18:49,720
Speaker 10: aircraft with an FN six Chinese man portaal air defense system.

2512
02:18:49,720 --> 02:18:52,720
Speaker 10: It's what they sort of called manpads. I'm sure women

2513
02:18:52,800 --> 02:18:55,360
Speaker 10: can carry them to just fine or anyone else for

2514
02:18:55,400 --> 02:18:57,400
Speaker 10: that matter. But I think it happened in January and

2515
02:18:57,400 --> 02:18:59,840
Speaker 10: the video has just come out. Can you explain this

2516
02:18:59,840 --> 02:19:03,120
Speaker 10: to nificance of that within the conflict landscape? And we

2517
02:19:03,200 --> 02:19:04,520
Speaker 10: am A yeah.

2518
02:19:04,520 --> 02:19:05,560
Speaker 7: I guess there's a couple of points.

2519
02:19:05,760 --> 02:19:08,400
Speaker 5: One is about China's posture and the other is about

2520
02:19:08,520 --> 02:19:13,520
Speaker 5: the military balance. I think the Minomour military's air power

2521
02:19:13,680 --> 02:19:17,560
Speaker 5: is its primary comparative advantage. I think at this point

2522
02:19:17,640 --> 02:19:21,879
Speaker 5: it has fewer blight infagery forces than the resistance, but

2523
02:19:22,040 --> 02:19:22,640
Speaker 5: that it's.

2524
02:19:22,480 --> 02:19:26,640
Speaker 7: Heavy artillery and especially it's air power. You know, that's

2525
02:19:26,680 --> 02:19:28,200
Speaker 7: how it terrorizes the population.

2526
02:19:28,400 --> 02:19:31,280
Speaker 5: Yeah, but it's also been a source of it's been

2527
02:19:31,280 --> 02:19:34,760
Speaker 5: a very powerful mobilizing force. I mean, I think after

2528
02:19:35,120 --> 02:19:39,200
Speaker 5: Phase one of ten twenty seven, the MMDAA Ko Kong

2529
02:19:39,440 --> 02:19:42,640
Speaker 5: armed group essentially it took back territory that it proceeds

2530
02:19:42,640 --> 02:19:44,880
Speaker 5: to be their own and took the town of lau Kai,

2531
02:19:44,920 --> 02:19:46,880
Speaker 5: which was really surprising.

2532
02:19:46,400 --> 02:19:47,920
Speaker 7: But a major advance.

2533
02:19:47,920 --> 02:19:50,280
Speaker 5: And then everyone kind of perceived, Okay, they'll just stay

2534
02:19:50,360 --> 02:19:53,039
Speaker 5: in the quote Unquoteqo Kong areas, They'll stay where they are.

2535
02:19:53,240 --> 02:19:55,439
Speaker 7: But I think there's a deep perception.

2536
02:19:55,800 --> 02:19:59,640
Speaker 5: Among the MDAA but also broader ethnic minority groups that

2537
02:20:00,040 --> 02:20:02,760
Speaker 5: as long as the mr military is in power and

2538
02:20:02,920 --> 02:20:07,160
Speaker 5: has air capability, it will terrorize the public.

2539
02:20:07,240 --> 02:20:08,720
Speaker 7: Even if it cannot reach or.

2540
02:20:08,640 --> 02:20:11,960
Speaker 5: Ever take back Laukai, it will vomit. And that's exactly

2541
02:20:12,000 --> 02:20:14,520
Speaker 5: what we saw after ten twenty seven. You saw air

2542
02:20:14,520 --> 02:20:17,800
Speaker 5: strikes and Laukai, you saw air strikes and lights of the.

2543
02:20:17,600 --> 02:20:19,360
Speaker 7: Headquarters of the Kachin Independence Army.

2544
02:20:19,640 --> 02:20:21,879
Speaker 5: You see air strikes in parts of her kind state

2545
02:20:21,920 --> 02:20:24,400
Speaker 5: that the mem R military has no chance of recapturing.

2546
02:20:24,560 --> 02:20:26,800
Speaker 7: You know, it's a terrorizing the public thing.

2547
02:20:26,920 --> 02:20:28,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a punitive thing.

2548
02:20:28,520 --> 02:20:31,840
Speaker 7: Yeah, it's punitive thing. So and it also is powerfully motivating.

2549
02:20:31,879 --> 02:20:35,280
Speaker 5: It's like, Okay, now you see the MNDA pushing all

2550
02:20:35,320 --> 02:20:37,120
Speaker 5: the way to Lascio, and a lot of people didn't

2551
02:20:37,120 --> 02:20:38,959
Speaker 5: think they would do that. But it's like, if you

2552
02:20:39,040 --> 02:20:42,480
Speaker 5: have a perception that this MR Military can hurt me

2553
02:20:43,040 --> 02:20:46,480
Speaker 5: from a distance, they may need to eliminate them altogether

2554
02:20:46,560 --> 02:20:48,800
Speaker 5: in order to achieve the level of stability and safety

2555
02:20:48,840 --> 02:20:51,520
Speaker 5: that they pursue. So like it's the double edged sword

2556
02:20:51,560 --> 02:20:53,640
Speaker 5: in that regard. But going back to your question, I

2557
02:20:53,640 --> 02:20:58,320
Speaker 5: mean think like if the resistance is capable of constraining

2558
02:20:58,400 --> 02:21:02,920
Speaker 5: the MR military's air capable, it radically changes the balance

2559
02:21:02,959 --> 02:21:06,600
Speaker 5: of power. I mean, I think there are some elements

2560
02:21:06,600 --> 02:21:09,240
Speaker 5: of this that are been a primary focus of some

2561
02:21:09,320 --> 02:21:13,959
Speaker 5: of the international human rights community, for example, constraining access

2562
02:21:14,000 --> 02:21:16,080
Speaker 5: to jet fuel and these sorts of things, trying to

2563
02:21:16,080 --> 02:21:18,720
Speaker 5: push for an arms embargo, none of which I've succeeded,

2564
02:21:19,120 --> 02:21:22,560
Speaker 5: but there's been kind of progress on the margins. Although

2565
02:21:22,560 --> 02:21:26,640
Speaker 5: I think we just saw Russia delivered jet fuel and

2566
02:21:26,840 --> 02:21:29,720
Speaker 5: the maritime routes in southern Mars.

2567
02:21:29,800 --> 02:21:33,560
Speaker 10: So yeah, in exchange for the artillery shows that the

2568
02:21:33,640 --> 02:21:34,920
Speaker 10: Mamma has sent to Russia.

2569
02:21:35,000 --> 02:21:38,640
Speaker 5: Right, Oh, okay, realize, Okay, yeah, So I mean they're continued,

2570
02:21:38,640 --> 02:21:40,520
Speaker 5: they're able to sustain that, and you know, and the

2571
02:21:40,600 --> 02:21:43,600
Speaker 5: Chinese has sold i think six aircrafts last year, so

2572
02:21:44,040 --> 02:21:46,800
Speaker 5: they still have this fighting capability, and they're still able

2573
02:21:46,840 --> 02:21:52,200
Speaker 5: to extract foreign exchange essentially by stealing from exporters. But

2574
02:21:52,240 --> 02:21:55,680
Speaker 5: that's a whole different conversation. But anyway, like I think, yeah,

2575
02:21:55,720 --> 02:21:58,520
Speaker 5: this is a key dynamic if they're able to affect

2576
02:21:58,720 --> 02:22:01,400
Speaker 5: their their air power. The other thing is that like

2577
02:22:02,160 --> 02:22:05,280
Speaker 5: China is attempted to play both sides. I mean historically

2578
02:22:05,280 --> 02:22:08,000
Speaker 5: that's sort of their approach. I mean, they have deep

2579
02:22:08,080 --> 02:22:13,080
Speaker 5: connections with armed organizations along its border, maybe closer even

2580
02:22:13,120 --> 02:22:16,080
Speaker 5: than that with the Memware military, but they also provide

2581
02:22:16,200 --> 02:22:19,840
Speaker 5: political legitimacy and material assistance to the Menware military. They

2582
02:22:19,959 --> 02:22:24,240
Speaker 5: just actually signed an MU on law enforcement and security

2583
02:22:24,320 --> 02:22:26,920
Speaker 5: or some sort with the military. That's a deep and

2584
02:22:26,920 --> 02:22:31,720
Speaker 5: abiding relationship, in part because the Chinese don't see an alternative.

2585
02:22:31,720 --> 02:22:34,080
Speaker 7: I mean, I don't think they have much trust for

2586
02:22:34,520 --> 02:22:35,320
Speaker 7: dan U G or.

2587
02:22:35,320 --> 02:22:38,959
Speaker 5: Other resistance groups, and despite the fact that they don't,

2588
02:22:39,240 --> 02:22:41,600
Speaker 5: they also don't really trust the memorare military or perceive

2589
02:22:41,680 --> 02:22:43,920
Speaker 5: them to be competent. They see them kind of as

2590
02:22:43,959 --> 02:22:47,800
Speaker 5: their only potential partner in IPIDOT. But it's kind of

2591
02:22:47,840 --> 02:22:50,440
Speaker 5: a question as to whether this strategy is still working

2592
02:22:50,480 --> 02:22:53,120
Speaker 5: for them. I think we've seen lots of acts of

2593
02:22:53,240 --> 02:22:57,440
Speaker 5: defiance from both sides, the mean or military and resistance

2594
02:22:57,480 --> 02:22:58,760
Speaker 5: groups visa be China.

2595
02:22:58,879 --> 02:23:00,560
Speaker 7: I mean, they are military.

2596
02:23:00,600 --> 02:23:03,920
Speaker 5: They've been pressuring them to hold elections for since the coup,

2597
02:23:04,000 --> 02:23:08,279
Speaker 5: essentially yea, and they're really no closer yeah to that happening.

2598
02:23:08,720 --> 02:23:12,000
Speaker 5: I mean, I think they dissolve the NLD, something the

2599
02:23:12,080 --> 02:23:15,240
Speaker 5: Chinese said not to do. And more recently, they've designated

2600
02:23:15,320 --> 02:23:18,920
Speaker 5: a number of resistance groups as terrorist organizations, which essentially

2601
02:23:19,640 --> 02:23:23,880
Speaker 5: obviates political negotiations, which I think would certainly frustrate the Chinese,

2602
02:23:23,920 --> 02:23:28,560
Speaker 5: given that they hope to achieve stability through political ingratiations

2603
02:23:28,600 --> 02:23:31,879
Speaker 5: between a subset of resistance groups and then aneral military.

2604
02:23:32,160 --> 02:23:34,440
Speaker 5: So there are these kind of acts of defiance also

2605
02:23:34,520 --> 02:23:37,680
Speaker 5: on the resistance side. I mean, the Chinese are pushing

2606
02:23:37,680 --> 02:23:41,160
Speaker 5: for ceasefires, and yet the resistance continues to push into

2607
02:23:41,200 --> 02:23:43,720
Speaker 5: the country, and they're sort of a perception that like,

2608
02:23:44,440 --> 02:23:48,560
Speaker 5: as the resistance groups aligned with China quote.

2609
02:23:48,360 --> 02:23:50,800
Speaker 7: Unquote aligned with China, maybe they aren't.

2610
02:23:51,040 --> 02:23:55,000
Speaker 5: A gain ascendency on the battlefield in particular, then China's

2611
02:23:55,000 --> 02:23:55,879
Speaker 5: influenced gains.

2612
02:23:56,000 --> 02:23:57,560
Speaker 7: But I'm not sure whether that's the case.

2613
02:23:57,600 --> 02:23:59,960
Speaker 5: It might actually be in verse, like, as these groups

2614
02:24:00,480 --> 02:24:04,000
Speaker 5: push to Memmre and have more charge oryal control, maybe

2615
02:24:04,040 --> 02:24:06,960
Speaker 5: they have more options and they're less dependent on the Chinese.

2616
02:24:07,000 --> 02:24:10,480
Speaker 5: So that relationship in the north along the Chinese border

2617
02:24:10,520 --> 02:24:12,440
Speaker 5: is also very much in flux.

2618
02:24:12,480 --> 02:24:14,480
Speaker 7: I don't think it's clear exactly how that will play out.

2619
02:24:14,840 --> 02:24:16,560
Speaker 10: Yeah, no, it's not, And I think that's sort of

2620
02:24:16,600 --> 02:24:19,320
Speaker 10: a big question that's overhanging. Obviously, you have actives that

2621
02:24:19,360 --> 02:24:21,840
Speaker 10: are more close your line with China, like the United

2622
02:24:21,879 --> 02:24:26,520
Speaker 10: worst Date Army, who have sort of largely remained aloof

2623
02:24:26,600 --> 02:24:28,880
Speaker 10: from the conflict or a loof maybe it's her own word,

2624
02:24:28,920 --> 02:24:33,160
Speaker 10: but are not like directly committing most of their forces

2625
02:24:33,160 --> 02:24:35,080
Speaker 10: to the Conflict's pretty a better way of saying it, right.

2626
02:24:35,120 --> 02:24:35,680
Speaker 7: Yeah, I think so.

2627
02:24:35,800 --> 02:24:37,440
Speaker 5: And now that there's a ton of pressure on them

2628
02:24:37,480 --> 02:24:40,920
Speaker 5: to stop selling arms to other groups, so we'll see

2629
02:24:40,959 --> 02:24:42,320
Speaker 5: whether that happens.

2630
02:24:42,600 --> 02:24:46,000
Speaker 10: Yeah, which is probably where the Kaschin Independence Army was

2631
02:24:46,040 --> 02:24:48,879
Speaker 10: able to get the surface where missiles from, which brings

2632
02:24:48,920 --> 02:24:53,640
Speaker 10: us back to that. Yeah, it's it's never not complicated,

2633
02:24:53,720 --> 02:24:56,240
Speaker 10: but it's always very sad that, like the folks quit

2634
02:24:56,280 --> 02:25:00,080
Speaker 10: in the middle of this are suffering horrendously and sometimes

2635
02:25:00,600 --> 02:25:03,240
Speaker 10: suffering kind of out of sight and out of mind

2636
02:25:03,320 --> 02:25:06,160
Speaker 10: for so many people. As you know, a news cycle

2637
02:25:06,160 --> 02:25:10,080
Speaker 10: continues to kind of either trivialize or completely ignore what's

2638
02:25:10,080 --> 02:25:14,360
Speaker 10: happening in Memma, which is pretty sad. People often ask me,

2639
02:25:14,440 --> 02:25:17,120
Speaker 10: like where they can find reliable news sources and where

2640
02:25:17,160 --> 02:25:19,400
Speaker 10: they can send their money if they want to help

2641
02:25:19,440 --> 02:25:21,760
Speaker 10: people in Mema. Do you have any good suggestions for that?

2642
02:25:22,440 --> 02:25:22,680
Speaker 8: Sure?

2643
02:25:22,760 --> 02:25:25,160
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean I think for news, I guess for

2644
02:25:25,240 --> 02:25:27,760
Speaker 5: like day to day news like Fronter Memr is a

2645
02:25:27,800 --> 02:25:32,400
Speaker 5: fantastic source, as is meanmore Now and the Airwadi. These

2646
02:25:32,440 --> 02:25:36,240
Speaker 5: are they have English language content that would be really

2647
02:25:36,520 --> 02:25:40,600
Speaker 5: interesting and accessible. My organization US Institute Piece. You can

2648
02:25:40,680 --> 02:25:43,560
Speaker 5: check out our website. We publish a lot of analytical

2649
02:25:43,560 --> 02:25:46,240
Speaker 5: work on there related to the conflict. You're welcome to

2650
02:25:46,320 --> 02:25:48,879
Speaker 5: check there. I think there's a really good another podcast,

2651
02:25:48,879 --> 02:25:52,080
Speaker 5: it's really good Insight MEMR that is worth checking out.

2652
02:25:52,120 --> 02:25:56,400
Speaker 5: Started as like a Buddhism oriented podcast talking about in Pasana.

2653
02:25:56,480 --> 02:26:00,000
Speaker 5: Now its branched into a much broader range of issues.

2654
02:26:00,560 --> 02:26:02,279
Speaker 7: Some of the best stuff I've.

2655
02:26:02,040 --> 02:26:05,120
Speaker 5: Heard and actually affiliated with inside mem R is an

2656
02:26:05,160 --> 02:26:09,080
Speaker 5: organization called Better Burma that provides entering assistance.

2657
02:26:08,640 --> 02:26:10,320
Speaker 7: And one you could contribute to.

2658
02:26:10,760 --> 02:26:14,120
Speaker 5: There's an organization called Skills for Humanity that provides a

2659
02:26:14,160 --> 02:26:15,960
Speaker 5: lot of humanitarian assistance on the ground.

2660
02:26:16,280 --> 02:26:18,119
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you mentioned.

2661
02:26:17,959 --> 02:26:21,199
Speaker 5: Liberate the MMR before we started recording. That can also

2662
02:26:21,240 --> 02:26:22,720
Speaker 5: be a good support.

2663
02:26:22,879 --> 02:26:23,080
Speaker 8: Yeah.

2664
02:26:23,160 --> 02:26:26,680
Speaker 10: Yeah, I think Skills to Humanity also accept maybe they

2665
02:26:26,720 --> 02:26:29,080
Speaker 10: accept direct I was speaking to them about like medical

2666
02:26:29,120 --> 02:26:33,080
Speaker 10: equipment that they needed. Yeah, they they accept direct donations

2667
02:26:33,160 --> 02:26:36,320
Speaker 10: or not. But people who want to volunteer medically let's

2668
02:26:36,360 --> 02:26:39,199
Speaker 10: want to look out for Yeah, that was fantastic.

2669
02:26:39,280 --> 02:26:39,560
Speaker 3: Billy.

2670
02:26:39,680 --> 02:26:42,200
Speaker 10: Is there any way anythink else you'd like to plug?

2671
02:26:42,240 --> 02:26:45,760
Speaker 10: Like why people can follow you or us i P online.

2672
02:26:45,440 --> 02:26:48,400
Speaker 5: Us i P dot org. Most of my writing is

2673
02:26:48,400 --> 02:26:52,120
Speaker 5: on there. I'm on Twitter, Twitter at b I L

2674
02:26:52,280 --> 02:26:56,520
Speaker 5: L E E, the number four, the letter D. But yeah,

2675
02:26:56,560 --> 02:27:00,400
Speaker 5: I mean I checked those sources I mentioned. It's there's

2676
02:27:00,400 --> 02:27:03,520
Speaker 5: not more kind of content in the mainstream media, but

2677
02:27:03,520 --> 02:27:06,400
Speaker 5: there's there's a lot of really incredible reporting coming from

2678
02:27:06,440 --> 02:27:10,720
Speaker 5: the ground, from people taking incredible risks to share information.

2679
02:27:10,879 --> 02:27:13,880
Speaker 5: So encourage you to support some of those local outlets.

2680
02:27:14,280 --> 02:27:17,760
Speaker 10: Yeah, definitely, including financially if you can. It's like doing

2681
02:27:17,800 --> 02:27:20,920
Speaker 10: the work that really needs to be done. Thank you

2682
02:27:20,920 --> 02:27:23,360
Speaker 10: so much for your time than we appreciate you being

2683
02:27:23,360 --> 02:27:23,760
Speaker 10: a host.

2684
02:27:23,920 --> 02:27:49,640
Speaker 2: Jeez, welcome to It could happen here a podcast that

2685
02:27:49,920 --> 02:27:53,320
Speaker 2: is reported. But I'm very tired. But you know who's

2686
02:27:53,360 --> 02:27:56,440
Speaker 2: not tired? Garrison Davis, our host for today.

2687
02:27:56,600 --> 02:27:58,680
Speaker 9: No, I'm probably more tired than you.

2688
02:27:58,800 --> 02:28:00,760
Speaker 3: I was up to I don't know about that.

2689
02:28:01,040 --> 02:28:04,160
Speaker 9: No, I was up till nine am. Eest writing desks.

2690
02:28:04,200 --> 02:28:06,800
Speaker 2: Oh geez. Yeah, I went to bed by like five

2691
02:28:06,879 --> 02:28:07,359
Speaker 2: or six.

2692
02:28:07,200 --> 02:28:09,440
Speaker 3: I except for three hours. I'm going right back to

2693
02:28:09,520 --> 02:28:10,240
Speaker 3: bed after this.

2694
02:28:10,640 --> 02:28:13,760
Speaker 9: Excellent as is the grind, you know, riseing grind, that's

2695
02:28:13,760 --> 02:28:14,199
Speaker 9: my motto.

2696
02:28:14,640 --> 02:28:21,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm going to do the same things. All right, Well, Garrison,

2697
02:28:22,000 --> 02:28:24,280
Speaker 2: what are we What are we talking about today? What's

2698
02:28:24,320 --> 02:28:26,920
Speaker 2: our episode about? What's this sewed on?

2699
02:28:27,320 --> 02:28:29,680
Speaker 9: So it's it's been a while since we've done like

2700
02:28:29,840 --> 02:28:33,600
Speaker 9: an update on what meme politics are up to. I

2701
02:28:33,640 --> 02:28:36,480
Speaker 9: think that the last deep dive we did was, like

2702
02:28:37,320 --> 02:28:41,000
Speaker 9: I wouldn't say, like a year ago when Ron DeSantis,

2703
02:28:41,080 --> 02:28:42,440
Speaker 9: then presidential.

2704
02:28:41,959 --> 02:28:44,720
Speaker 2: Hopeful meatball Rod Garrison, meatball rock me.

2705
02:28:44,800 --> 02:28:46,480
Speaker 3: Sorry, sorry, my polity is putting.

2706
02:28:46,560 --> 02:28:51,200
Speaker 9: Ron just embraced the fast wave like meme asthetic for

2707
02:28:51,360 --> 02:28:55,800
Speaker 9: his then failing and dying campaign. And that was kind

2708
02:28:55,840 --> 02:28:57,760
Speaker 9: of the last that we did one of these big

2709
02:28:57,800 --> 02:29:00,760
Speaker 9: deep dives into like how meme politics currently operate.

2710
02:29:01,200 --> 02:29:02,400
Speaker 3: And it's been a long year.

2711
02:29:02,600 --> 02:29:05,119
Speaker 9: It's felt in some ways much longer than a year

2712
02:29:05,879 --> 02:29:11,080
Speaker 9: since then, and the meme landscape has changed significantly, And

2713
02:29:11,520 --> 02:29:13,480
Speaker 9: that's kind of what I want to discuss today. Just

2714
02:29:13,560 --> 02:29:16,800
Speaker 9: go over the current state of meme politics in September

2715
02:29:16,959 --> 02:29:17,920
Speaker 9: twenty twenty two.

2716
02:29:18,600 --> 02:29:23,800
Speaker 2: Great, it's like the State of the Union, but slightly dumber.

2717
02:29:24,000 --> 02:29:28,080
Speaker 9: But for us, yeah, just for all, for the completely

2718
02:29:28,120 --> 02:29:31,599
Speaker 9: brain rods, yeah space of online politics, people.

2719
02:29:31,280 --> 02:29:34,800
Speaker 2: Who have destroyed their minds by spending too much time

2720
02:29:34,879 --> 02:29:35,440
Speaker 2: on the internet.

2721
02:29:35,600 --> 02:29:40,040
Speaker 9: Yes, exactly so now that most of these like jokes

2722
02:29:40,040 --> 02:29:42,680
Speaker 9: and references will be talking about are actually really old

2723
02:29:42,720 --> 02:29:46,080
Speaker 9: and not actually relevant anymore and are no longer trending.

2724
02:29:46,600 --> 02:29:50,240
Speaker 9: Now we can talk about how they worked, if they worked,

2725
02:29:50,440 --> 02:29:52,600
Speaker 9: and what they can tell us about the changing landscape

2726
02:29:52,600 --> 02:29:54,360
Speaker 9: of meme politics in the Year of Our Lord twenty

2727
02:29:54,360 --> 02:29:57,720
Speaker 9: twenty four and beyond. So let's start by going all

2728
02:29:57,760 --> 02:30:00,720
Speaker 9: the way back to July fifteenth, which was just a

2729
02:30:00,760 --> 02:30:01,480
Speaker 9: lifetime ago.

2730
02:30:01,959 --> 02:30:04,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was a thousand years ago. Yes, this was.

2731
02:30:04,400 --> 02:30:07,160
Speaker 9: This was the first day of the RNC. Vance Is

2732
02:30:07,200 --> 02:30:10,520
Speaker 9: announced as Trump's running mate. This was before Biden dropped

2733
02:30:10,520 --> 02:30:13,440
Speaker 9: out of the race, but when we were pretty sure

2734
02:30:13,440 --> 02:30:16,400
Speaker 9: that he was probably going to hopefully.

2735
02:30:16,160 --> 02:30:18,240
Speaker 2: That's interesting that you were pretty shit because I I

2736
02:30:18,800 --> 02:30:21,240
Speaker 2: kind of thought he was going to like make us

2737
02:30:21,640 --> 02:30:24,360
Speaker 2: like fucking hoist his corpse back into the white asse.

2738
02:30:24,480 --> 02:30:26,560
Speaker 9: I mean, we got a really good indication about five

2739
02:30:26,600 --> 02:30:29,760
Speaker 9: days later that his dropout was like imminent. Yeah, yeah,

2740
02:30:29,760 --> 02:30:31,960
Speaker 9: you're right, and it happened. It happened less than a

2741
02:30:32,000 --> 02:30:35,119
Speaker 9: week later, So it was it was really on the line.

2742
02:30:35,560 --> 02:30:37,120
Speaker 9: But anyway, it was. It was a it was a

2743
02:30:37,200 --> 02:30:40,480
Speaker 9: very different world, very different time. Meanwhile, on the first

2744
02:30:40,520 --> 02:30:42,600
Speaker 9: day of the RNC, after vance Is announced as the

2745
02:30:42,640 --> 02:30:49,360
Speaker 9: Republican VP candidate, the Twitter user Rick Rud's Calves posted

2746
02:30:49,959 --> 02:30:53,879
Speaker 9: this tweet quote, I can't say for sure, but he

2747
02:30:54,040 --> 02:30:57,040
Speaker 9: might be the first VP pick to have admitted in

2748
02:30:57,080 --> 02:30:59,959
Speaker 9: a New York Times bestseller to fucking and insight out

2749
02:31:00,040 --> 02:31:04,240
Speaker 9: Latex Glove shoved in between two couch cushions Vance Hillbilly Elogy,

2750
02:31:04,400 --> 02:31:08,520
Speaker 9: pages one seventy nine to one eighty one. So this

2751
02:31:08,600 --> 02:31:11,039
Speaker 9: is this is the start of the couch meme. Sure

2752
02:31:11,160 --> 02:31:13,120
Speaker 9: the next few days, the memes spread online with the

2753
02:31:13,160 --> 02:31:16,040
Speaker 9: help of liberals who were unable to detect the fictitious

2754
02:31:16,120 --> 02:31:20,160
Speaker 9: nature of the claim. Now, unronic spread is crucial to

2755
02:31:20,200 --> 02:31:23,600
Speaker 9: the success of mimetic attacks like this, and the couch

2756
02:31:23,640 --> 02:31:27,120
Speaker 9: fucking claims gained such widespread prominence on Twitter that on

2757
02:31:27,240 --> 02:31:30,280
Speaker 9: July twenty fifth, the AP decided to do an official

2758
02:31:30,480 --> 02:31:34,600
Speaker 9: fact check of the claim, running the headline no, JD.

2759
02:31:34,720 --> 02:31:38,360
Speaker 9: Vans did not have sex with a couch. Now this

2760
02:31:38,440 --> 02:31:41,640
Speaker 9: had two problems. By platforming this story in the AP,

2761
02:31:42,120 --> 02:31:46,080
Speaker 9: the image of JD's couch coitus was propelled outside the

2762
02:31:46,080 --> 02:31:49,600
Speaker 9: confines of overly online and Twitter shit posters into the

2763
02:31:49,640 --> 02:31:53,039
Speaker 9: popular discourse. Now the topic was welcome on news shows,

2764
02:31:53,120 --> 02:31:58,120
Speaker 9: talk shows, and other respectable publications. The other problem is

2765
02:31:58,160 --> 02:32:02,360
Speaker 9: that you can't defit say JD Vance has never had

2766
02:32:02,400 --> 02:32:03,360
Speaker 9: sex with a couch.

2767
02:32:03,600 --> 02:32:06,200
Speaker 2: No, no, I say I would never say that. You

2768
02:32:06,320 --> 02:32:07,680
Speaker 2: can say it's untrue.

2769
02:32:07,760 --> 02:32:10,480
Speaker 9: He wrote about sofa sex in his memoir, right, but

2770
02:32:10,520 --> 02:32:12,800
Speaker 9: not that he's one hundred percent never made love to

2771
02:32:12,879 --> 02:32:13,520
Speaker 9: a love seat.

2772
02:32:13,680 --> 02:32:15,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, so making matters worse.

2773
02:32:15,840 --> 02:32:20,280
Speaker 9: Hours later, the AP removed their fact check, leaving a

2774
02:32:20,320 --> 02:32:23,280
Speaker 9: web page that just read quote, this story did not

2775
02:32:23,360 --> 02:32:26,359
Speaker 9: go through our standard editing processes and has been removed.

2776
02:32:26,840 --> 02:32:29,360
Speaker 2: I gotta know, I do desperately want to know what

2777
02:32:29,640 --> 02:32:31,960
Speaker 2: actually happened in the background there.

2778
02:32:36,160 --> 02:32:40,480
Speaker 3: It's it's quite funny. It's it's quite a big fuck up. Now.

2779
02:32:40,959 --> 02:32:45,960
Speaker 9: This led people to reasonably conclude that if the fact

2780
02:32:46,080 --> 02:32:48,600
Speaker 9: check was taken down, that really only leads us to

2781
02:32:48,600 --> 02:32:50,760
Speaker 9: believe one thing is that this is a true claim,

2782
02:32:51,000 --> 02:32:53,560
Speaker 9: which at this point many people knew that it's not.

2783
02:32:54,320 --> 02:32:57,560
Speaker 9: I think interestingly, jd Vance has refused to comment on

2784
02:32:57,600 --> 02:33:01,920
Speaker 9: this claim, which is probably smart, but his continued refusal

2785
02:33:01,959 --> 02:33:04,640
Speaker 9: to even deny the claim adds a bit to the

2786
02:33:04,760 --> 02:33:09,680
Speaker 9: humorous nature. So the retraction of this fact check became

2787
02:33:09,760 --> 02:33:12,039
Speaker 9: a news story itself and gave a whole new life

2788
02:33:12,040 --> 02:33:14,360
Speaker 9: to a meme that had kind of been reaching the

2789
02:33:14,480 --> 02:33:18,200
Speaker 9: end of its cycle. People created doctored pages of Vance's

2790
02:33:18,200 --> 02:33:21,320
Speaker 9: book Hill Billy Elegy, where he reflected on tales of

2791
02:33:21,360 --> 02:33:24,600
Speaker 9: his youth in Ohio, where it was commonplace for young

2792
02:33:24,640 --> 02:33:27,840
Speaker 9: boys rejected by girls to turn to couch cushions for

2793
02:33:27,920 --> 02:33:31,800
Speaker 9: sexual pleasure. The fake pages were framed as a limited

2794
02:33:31,879 --> 02:33:34,480
Speaker 9: first edition of the book before per Teal found it

2795
02:33:34,520 --> 02:33:37,560
Speaker 9: and revised the book for a secondary, wide released copy

2796
02:33:38,120 --> 02:33:41,800
Speaker 9: the next week. The meme continued to proliferate, having completely

2797
02:33:41,959 --> 02:33:44,120
Speaker 9: broken out of the Twitter ship posting bubble it was

2798
02:33:44,120 --> 02:33:47,160
Speaker 9: birthed in, but the peak of the meme was still

2799
02:33:47,240 --> 02:33:51,160
Speaker 9: to come. On August sixth, Kamala Harris announced Minnesota Governor

2800
02:33:51,200 --> 02:33:53,600
Speaker 9: Tim Walls as her running mate, and the two appeared

2801
02:33:53,600 --> 02:33:57,680
Speaker 9: together at a rally in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. During Walls's first speech,

2802
02:33:57,760 --> 02:34:00,560
Speaker 9: he made a very safe kind of dead Oak style

2803
02:34:00,640 --> 02:34:05,680
Speaker 9: reference to his vice presidential opponent's viral sticky sofa situation.

2804
02:34:06,080 --> 02:34:08,720
Speaker 11: Like all regular people I grew up with in the Heartland,

2805
02:34:08,800 --> 02:34:13,480
Speaker 11: JD studied at Yale, had his career funded by Silicon

2806
02:34:13,560 --> 02:34:18,000
Speaker 11: Valley billionaires, and then wrote a best seller trashing that community.

2807
02:34:18,200 --> 02:34:23,520
Speaker 11: Come on, that's not what Middle America is. And I

2808
02:34:23,560 --> 02:34:26,440
Speaker 11: gotta tell you I can't wait to debate the guy,

2809
02:34:30,840 --> 02:34:33,160
Speaker 11: that is, if he's willing to get off the couch

2810
02:34:33,200 --> 02:34:38,000
Speaker 11: and show up, you'll see what.

2811
02:34:38,000 --> 02:34:38,720
Speaker 8: I did there.

2812
02:34:40,760 --> 02:34:46,000
Speaker 9: So, due to the references kind of like explicit sexual context,

2813
02:34:46,040 --> 02:34:48,520
Speaker 9: this was a bit of an unexpected move.

2814
02:34:48,720 --> 02:34:49,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, you could say that.

2815
02:34:50,080 --> 02:34:53,880
Speaker 9: But for those already familiar with the meme, the bit

2816
02:34:53,959 --> 02:34:57,280
Speaker 9: served as a humorous yet tame in joke, and for

2817
02:34:57,360 --> 02:35:01,039
Speaker 9: those unfamiliar, the huge crowd reactions and prompted others to

2818
02:35:01,160 --> 02:35:05,520
Speaker 9: inquire about the context for the whole jd vance couch thing,

2819
02:35:06,040 --> 02:35:09,600
Speaker 9: once again boosting its popularity as a trend. Now, I

2820
02:35:09,640 --> 02:35:12,880
Speaker 9: think this was a bit of a gamble from Walls definitely,

2821
02:35:13,000 --> 02:35:17,000
Speaker 9: as acknowledging a viral meme often leads to its impending death,

2822
02:35:17,240 --> 02:35:20,039
Speaker 9: where recognition and participation of viral trends from the mainstream

2823
02:35:20,120 --> 02:35:23,200
Speaker 9: establishment signal that something is no longer cool and is

2824
02:35:23,240 --> 02:35:27,240
Speaker 9: now instead cringe Now. Part of the long lasting presence

2825
02:35:27,280 --> 02:35:30,520
Speaker 9: of the coconut tree meme is the Harris campaign's wise

2826
02:35:30,680 --> 02:35:34,960
Speaker 9: unwillingness to make continuing coconut tree references or capitalize on

2827
02:35:35,040 --> 02:35:38,440
Speaker 9: its imagery. The White House going all in on Dark

2828
02:35:38,480 --> 02:35:41,840
Speaker 9: Brandon using the imagery for merch and Biden increasingly making

2829
02:35:41,879 --> 02:35:43,240
Speaker 9: references to the meme and interviews and.

2830
02:35:43,240 --> 02:35:45,959
Speaker 2: Speeches, Oh, I've just killed a dead nuked.

2831
02:35:45,640 --> 02:35:48,920
Speaker 9: It exactly ultimately led to this meme's death long before

2832
02:35:48,920 --> 02:35:52,039
Speaker 9: the death of the Biden campaign itself. But this could

2833
02:35:52,080 --> 02:35:56,039
Speaker 9: be like a delicate balance. Before Biden made a dark

2834
02:35:56,080 --> 02:35:59,320
Speaker 9: Brandon one of the early chrostic images associated with his

2835
02:35:59,400 --> 02:36:02,480
Speaker 9: twenty twenty five for re election campaign, the first few

2836
02:36:02,640 --> 02:36:05,720
Speaker 9: dark branded references from the White House actually increased the

2837
02:36:05,760 --> 02:36:08,600
Speaker 9: memes spread, and I think this is where Walls's joke

2838
02:36:08,720 --> 02:36:11,800
Speaker 9: was able to succeed. The couch reference was vague enough

2839
02:36:12,080 --> 02:36:16,000
Speaker 9: and disconnected from the more explicit aspects of the meme,

2840
02:36:16,400 --> 02:36:19,920
Speaker 9: and paired with Walls's goofy facial expressions and his kind

2841
02:36:19,920 --> 02:36:22,640
Speaker 9: of dad joke refrain of see what I did there,

2842
02:36:23,480 --> 02:36:26,240
Speaker 9: it made what could have been a cringe and or

2843
02:36:26,520 --> 02:36:31,320
Speaker 9: crude moment into a charismatic and endearing one. I think

2844
02:36:31,320 --> 02:36:34,720
Speaker 9: the other thing that makes me lean towards Walls's invocation

2845
02:36:34,879 --> 02:36:38,400
Speaker 9: of the couch helping more than herting, is that the

2846
02:36:38,440 --> 02:36:41,680
Speaker 9: meme had already begun to be legitimized by the establishment

2847
02:36:42,040 --> 02:36:44,000
Speaker 9: when it's the subject of an article in every major

2848
02:36:44,000 --> 02:36:47,360
Speaker 9: publication and Stephen Colbert is making couch jokes on TV,

2849
02:36:47,800 --> 02:36:50,720
Speaker 9: then it is already broken containment and hit the mainstream.

2850
02:36:51,080 --> 02:36:51,320
Speaker 3: Yeah.

2851
02:36:51,520 --> 02:36:54,560
Speaker 2: I would also add, I think there's a degree to which,

2852
02:36:54,640 --> 02:36:58,600
Speaker 2: like the dark Brandon stuff was cringey so fast, because

2853
02:36:58,600 --> 02:37:02,200
Speaker 2: it was very clearly the Biden campaign jumping on to

2854
02:37:02,240 --> 02:37:07,039
Speaker 2: a meme that Biden himself certainly didn't understand absolutely not,

2855
02:37:07,640 --> 02:37:09,640
Speaker 2: Whereas I think Walls got a little bit of the

2856
02:37:09,760 --> 02:37:12,880
Speaker 2: kind of energy Trump used to get in part because

2857
02:37:12,920 --> 02:37:15,480
Speaker 2: it was it was like such a I can't believe

2858
02:37:15,520 --> 02:37:18,879
Speaker 2: this is happening in American politics. The VP candidate for

2859
02:37:18,920 --> 02:37:22,800
Speaker 2: the DIMS just accused the Republican VP candidate having sex

2860
02:37:22,840 --> 02:37:25,800
Speaker 2: with the couch like it was such a wow. This

2861
02:37:25,920 --> 02:37:28,280
Speaker 2: is like the breaking of a seal kind of moment

2862
02:37:28,320 --> 02:37:31,480
Speaker 2: which normally the Republicans have kind of had to themselves

2863
02:37:31,520 --> 02:37:34,760
Speaker 2: these like yes, line crossing moments, And I think that

2864
02:37:35,040 --> 02:37:37,040
Speaker 2: does get attention and energy.

2865
02:37:37,720 --> 02:37:38,039
Speaker 3: To you.

2866
02:37:38,200 --> 02:37:40,120
Speaker 2: It was interesting to see them do it and have

2867
02:37:40,200 --> 02:37:41,160
Speaker 2: it actually work.

2868
02:37:41,560 --> 02:37:43,199
Speaker 9: Yeah, well, we'll talk about that a little bit later.

2869
02:37:43,280 --> 02:37:47,560
Speaker 9: How this sort of tactic has been almost entirely monopolized

2870
02:37:47,600 --> 02:37:49,920
Speaker 9: by the right to the past decade and just now

2871
02:37:50,000 --> 02:37:53,000
Speaker 9: we're starting to see someone that's change. I think Tim

2872
02:37:53,040 --> 02:37:57,320
Speaker 9: Wall's making a single Couched reference I believe did very

2873
02:37:57,360 --> 02:38:00,400
Speaker 9: little to hurt the inevitable trajectory of the JD Vance

2874
02:38:00,520 --> 02:38:03,600
Speaker 9: Couch meme. In the days after the speech, searches for

2875
02:38:03,760 --> 02:38:07,720
Speaker 9: JD Vance Couch reached an all time high, and as

2876
02:38:07,760 --> 02:38:10,600
Speaker 9: is the nature for peaks, was followed by a gradual

2877
02:38:10,640 --> 02:38:13,959
Speaker 9: fall off during the month of August. But crucially, the

2878
02:38:14,080 --> 02:38:17,240
Speaker 9: spirit of the meme never really fully went away. I

2879
02:38:17,240 --> 02:38:20,039
Speaker 9: think one aspect that separates the couch meme from Dark

2880
02:38:20,080 --> 02:38:22,800
Speaker 9: Branded and even Coconut Tree to some degree is that

2881
02:38:23,000 --> 02:38:25,840
Speaker 9: it's not based on trying to prop up a political

2882
02:38:25,840 --> 02:38:31,240
Speaker 9: figure like Positively, but is instead attacking a widely disliked

2883
02:38:31,280 --> 02:38:35,760
Speaker 9: figure with slanderous disinformation. And though the couch meme is

2884
02:38:35,800 --> 02:38:38,240
Speaker 9: well past its peak, there's been no shortage of ways

2885
02:38:38,280 --> 02:38:39,160
Speaker 9: to make fun of JD.

2886
02:38:39,360 --> 02:38:39,720
Speaker 3: Vance.

2887
02:38:40,240 --> 02:38:44,320
Speaker 9: The overall momentum against him specifically has continued on utilizing

2888
02:38:44,360 --> 02:38:47,560
Speaker 9: memes with a true, untrue, and semi true basis, whether

2889
02:38:47,600 --> 02:38:51,040
Speaker 9: that be his inability to order donuts or his legitimately

2890
02:38:51,080 --> 02:38:55,039
Speaker 9: possible interest in dolphin sex as evidenced by his Twitter searches.

2891
02:38:56,879 --> 02:38:59,160
Speaker 9: Do you know who also likes dolphin sex.

2892
02:38:59,280 --> 02:38:59,640
Speaker 3: Robert.

2893
02:39:01,000 --> 02:39:04,720
Speaker 2: I mean, I could be convinced, but I guess let's

2894
02:39:04,760 --> 02:39:06,039
Speaker 2: check out these ads anyway.

2895
02:39:16,520 --> 02:39:17,920
Speaker 3: All right, we are so back.

2896
02:39:19,000 --> 02:39:23,040
Speaker 9: So the right did not take kindly to Walls's acknowledgment

2897
02:39:23,120 --> 02:39:25,000
Speaker 9: of the whole sofa spectacle.

2898
02:39:25,080 --> 02:39:28,400
Speaker 3: We were so pissed. They were really pissed. And it's funny.

2899
02:39:28,440 --> 02:39:30,640
Speaker 9: It's like as if their main guy has not spent

2900
02:39:30,720 --> 02:39:33,640
Speaker 9: the last ten years making up wild and spewing all

2901
02:39:33,720 --> 02:39:36,000
Speaker 9: sorts of like offensive lies about his opponents.

2902
02:39:36,200 --> 02:39:36,400
Speaker 3: Yeah.

2903
02:39:36,480 --> 02:39:39,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's why they're pissed. Yeah, we're supposed to be

2904
02:39:39,560 --> 02:39:40,360
Speaker 2: the ones doing this.

2905
02:39:41,560 --> 02:39:46,120
Speaker 9: So in response, the online right's finest posters cooked up

2906
02:39:46,120 --> 02:39:50,160
Speaker 9: a memetic counter attack against Tim Walls. And what they

2907
02:39:50,240 --> 02:39:53,200
Speaker 9: decided on is that Tim Walls once had to get

2908
02:39:53,240 --> 02:39:57,240
Speaker 9: his stomach pumped from drinking a gallon of horse seamen

2909
02:39:58,600 --> 02:40:01,400
Speaker 9: with this meme originating from a fake screenshot of an

2910
02:40:01,440 --> 02:40:05,360
Speaker 9: AP fact check posted by the Twitter account National Conservatism.

2911
02:40:06,080 --> 02:40:11,160
Speaker 2: See, uh, I'm sure you're going to get into it.

2912
02:40:11,200 --> 02:40:13,840
Speaker 2: But there's so many reasons why this was always destined

2913
02:40:13,959 --> 02:40:14,560
Speaker 2: not to work.

2914
02:40:14,760 --> 02:40:15,080
Speaker 3: Yeah.

2915
02:40:15,120 --> 02:40:19,039
Speaker 9: Absolutely, Almost immediately this was seen as like a massive misfire.

2916
02:40:19,200 --> 02:40:21,600
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, it made it immediately clear, Oh, you guys

2917
02:40:21,600 --> 02:40:24,560
Speaker 2: don't understand why what you used to do, like what

2918
02:40:24,600 --> 02:40:27,040
Speaker 2: you were doing was working. Yeah, like you never actually

2919
02:40:27,160 --> 02:40:30,920
Speaker 2: understood the principles behind what you were playing around with.

2920
02:40:31,200 --> 02:40:34,640
Speaker 9: And I think crucially, most of the attacks from these

2921
02:40:34,680 --> 02:40:37,280
Speaker 9: like weird online figures never actually caught that much traction.

2922
02:40:37,360 --> 02:40:39,360
Speaker 9: The only ones that succeeded were ones that were just

2923
02:40:39,520 --> 02:40:42,360
Speaker 9: pairting stuff that Trump was talking about, because I think

2924
02:40:42,360 --> 02:40:44,960
Speaker 9: Trump actually understands this line of attack much better than

2925
02:40:44,959 --> 02:40:47,560
Speaker 9: most of these like right wing posters do. But yeah,

2926
02:40:47,600 --> 02:40:50,280
Speaker 9: it was very clear that this was a failure. Some

2927
02:40:50,320 --> 02:40:54,400
Speaker 9: of the first horse Seamen posts got immediately ratioed by

2928
02:40:54,440 --> 02:40:58,120
Speaker 9: replies and quote tweets, deeming the meme a manufactured and

2929
02:40:58,240 --> 02:41:01,400
Speaker 9: desperate attempt to respond to the natural growth of the

2930
02:41:01,440 --> 02:41:04,760
Speaker 9: couch hooks from a random Twitter shit post to the

2931
02:41:04,760 --> 02:41:07,879
Speaker 9: Democratic vice presidential candidate's opening speech with.

2932
02:41:07,840 --> 02:41:11,120
Speaker 2: A guy like Walls, you don't go with horse com

2933
02:41:11,520 --> 02:41:14,120
Speaker 2: you do something like you you start spreading a rumor

2934
02:41:14,440 --> 02:41:17,160
Speaker 2: that like he uh cooked a bunch of well done

2935
02:41:17,160 --> 02:41:19,840
Speaker 2: t bone steaks at a barbecue or totally like that,

2936
02:41:19,959 --> 02:41:22,480
Speaker 2: totally like something that really hits to the center of

2937
02:41:22,520 --> 02:41:25,360
Speaker 2: his dad core thing it has. It has to line

2938
02:41:25,440 --> 02:41:28,520
Speaker 2: up with his vibe right right, right, and his vibe

2939
02:41:28,600 --> 02:41:31,560
Speaker 2: is like you know that nice Midwestern dad who's a

2940
02:41:31,600 --> 02:41:33,360
Speaker 2: dog shit cook, right like.

2941
02:41:33,560 --> 02:41:36,000
Speaker 9: Yeah, which is some thing that Walls has actually been

2942
02:41:36,000 --> 02:41:38,640
Speaker 9: able to like utilize himself with his like white guy

2943
02:41:38,680 --> 02:41:39,959
Speaker 9: tacos and stuff right like.

2944
02:41:39,959 --> 02:41:42,640
Speaker 2: Right right exactly. He's leaded into it very smartly.

2945
02:41:42,680 --> 02:41:44,680
Speaker 9: He lead into it, and then it becomes a strength

2946
02:41:44,760 --> 02:41:47,760
Speaker 9: that then the right also gets upset about accusing him

2947
02:41:47,760 --> 02:41:49,640
Speaker 9: of quote unquote anti white racism.

2948
02:41:50,600 --> 02:41:53,440
Speaker 2: That was quite a moment for American political history.

2949
02:41:55,120 --> 02:41:57,280
Speaker 9: The other thing with like this horse semen thing is

2950
02:41:57,320 --> 02:42:01,039
Speaker 9: like you simply just can't force these things to happen.

2951
02:42:01,120 --> 02:42:03,480
Speaker 9: Like a crucial part of the success of a political

2952
02:42:03,520 --> 02:42:05,320
Speaker 9: meme like this is that it must have a degree

2953
02:42:05,600 --> 02:42:09,360
Speaker 9: of unirnic spread by people who genuinely believe it to

2954
02:42:09,440 --> 02:42:12,200
Speaker 9: be true. Now, the horse semen meme was also intended

2955
02:42:12,240 --> 02:42:15,720
Speaker 9: to counter the Republican or weird talking point that picked

2956
02:42:15,760 --> 02:42:19,400
Speaker 9: up steam this summer, and for some reason, they chose

2957
02:42:19,440 --> 02:42:22,640
Speaker 9: to go about this by making an escalatory and just

2958
02:42:22,720 --> 02:42:27,640
Speaker 9: grossly bizarre claim about Tim Wall's guzzling animal semen. Masterful

2959
02:42:27,640 --> 02:42:30,760
Speaker 9: gambitzer not a weird thing to say at all. No,

2960
02:42:31,760 --> 02:42:35,480
Speaker 9: in doing this, the right displayed a fundamental misunderstanding of

2961
02:42:35,520 --> 02:42:39,480
Speaker 9: why the Jdvan's couch story was successful. The reason why

2962
02:42:39,520 --> 02:42:42,600
Speaker 9: it caught on despite the easily verifiable fact that Jadvance

2963
02:42:42,600 --> 02:42:44,520
Speaker 9: did not write about pleasuring himself with a couch as

2964
02:42:44,520 --> 02:42:47,480
Speaker 9: a teenager, is that Jadvance seems like the kind of

2965
02:42:47,520 --> 02:42:49,840
Speaker 9: guy to have used a couch to masturbate as a

2966
02:42:49,840 --> 02:42:51,359
Speaker 9: teenager in rural Ohio.

2967
02:42:51,640 --> 02:42:53,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know that adolescence was awkward as.

2968
02:42:53,879 --> 02:42:57,000
Speaker 9: Shit, absolutely, Like it wasn't successful just because it was

2969
02:42:57,040 --> 02:43:00,240
Speaker 9: like a weird sex story. It evoked a genuine and

2970
02:43:00,240 --> 02:43:02,680
Speaker 9: feeling of something a sort of like white trash young

2971
02:43:02,720 --> 02:43:06,680
Speaker 9: guy might do. On the other hand, swallowing a gallon

2972
02:43:06,720 --> 02:43:09,320
Speaker 9: of horse seamen, it's such an outlandish jump into fantasy

2973
02:43:09,360 --> 02:43:10,720
Speaker 9: by comparison.

2974
02:43:10,240 --> 02:43:14,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, nobody has done that, right. Well, well, Tim Walls

2975
02:43:14,520 --> 02:43:17,840
Speaker 2: is no mister hands. The vibes simply do not match.

2976
02:43:18,280 --> 02:43:21,760
Speaker 2: And to be clear, Garre said, mister Hans wasn't swallowing it.

2977
02:43:21,840 --> 02:43:22,880
Speaker 2: That was part of the problem.

2978
02:43:23,200 --> 02:43:27,640
Speaker 9: That is true, And like, meanwhile, Vance has the exact

2979
02:43:27,760 --> 02:43:30,959
Speaker 9: vibe of like a gross little teen gremlin who fucked

2980
02:43:30,959 --> 02:43:33,720
Speaker 9: it inside out. Rubber gloves shoved between two couch cushions.

2981
02:43:34,760 --> 02:43:37,680
Speaker 9: So the horse even meme failed to reach outside the

2982
02:43:37,720 --> 02:43:42,120
Speaker 9: confines of niche right wing Twitter, but conservatives had another

2983
02:43:42,240 --> 02:43:46,640
Speaker 9: meme up their sleeve. Chronically online far right influencers Cat

2984
02:43:46,720 --> 02:43:49,520
Speaker 9: Turre a CHAIAI Check aka Lips of TikTok and Ian

2985
02:43:49,560 --> 02:43:52,840
Speaker 9: Miles Chung led the charge in branding Tim Walls as

2986
02:43:53,240 --> 02:43:57,240
Speaker 9: tampon Tim in reference to a bill Walls assigned requiring

2987
02:43:57,280 --> 02:44:01,320
Speaker 9: menstrual products be provided in schools. Oh the horror, The

2988
02:44:01,360 --> 02:44:04,680
Speaker 9: Babylon b wrote JD. Vans is weird. It says guy

2989
02:44:04,680 --> 02:44:08,920
Speaker 9: who signed bill to put tampons in boys' school bathroom unquote.

2990
02:44:09,440 --> 02:44:13,360
Speaker 9: So similar to the horse thing, this attempt to frame

2991
02:44:13,560 --> 02:44:16,400
Speaker 9: Tim Walls is weird just didn't work that the meme

2992
02:44:16,440 --> 02:44:19,520
Speaker 9: never caught on beyond its initial posts. I think part

2993
02:44:19,560 --> 02:44:22,959
Speaker 9: of the reason why the overly online right is so

2994
02:44:23,120 --> 02:44:26,359
Speaker 9: focused on painting Walls is weird is not just revenge

2995
02:44:26,440 --> 02:44:29,680
Speaker 9: for the couch joke, but because Tim Walls is often

2996
02:44:29,720 --> 02:44:34,040
Speaker 9: credited with popularizing the quote Republicans are just plain weird

2997
02:44:34,400 --> 02:44:38,040
Speaker 9: line of attack, something that's really caught on this past summer. Now,

2998
02:44:38,080 --> 02:44:40,600
Speaker 9: the oldest clip I can find of Tim Walls positing.

2999
02:44:40,640 --> 02:44:44,039
Speaker 9: This message comes from December of twenty twenty three. I'll

3000
02:44:44,080 --> 02:44:45,080
Speaker 9: include that clip here.

3001
02:44:45,200 --> 02:44:47,840
Speaker 12: And you said, basically, there's no such thing as a

3002
02:44:47,840 --> 02:44:48,879
Speaker 12: generic Republican.

3003
02:44:49,160 --> 02:44:50,440
Speaker 3: These guys are weird.

3004
02:44:50,879 --> 02:44:53,840
Speaker 4: Once they start running, their weirdness shows up.

3005
02:44:54,720 --> 02:44:56,080
Speaker 3: What do you mean, well, you have weird?

3006
02:44:56,240 --> 02:44:56,879
Speaker 8: Stand by that?

3007
02:44:58,240 --> 02:45:01,920
Speaker 11: Well, well, look just the strange things they become obsessed with,

3008
02:45:02,000 --> 02:45:06,039
Speaker 11: demonizing our children, becoming obsessed with people's personal lives in

3009
02:45:06,080 --> 02:45:09,440
Speaker 11: their bedrooms, restricting freedoms. I'm surrounded by states who are

3010
02:45:09,440 --> 02:45:12,160
Speaker 11: spending their time figuring out how to ban Charlotte's Web

3011
02:45:12,400 --> 02:45:15,120
Speaker 11: in their schools. Why we're banishing hunger from ours with

3012
02:45:15,160 --> 02:45:18,160
Speaker 11: free breakfast and launch. That's what the public's looking for,

3013
02:45:18,280 --> 02:45:20,280
Speaker 11: That's what they're trying to get to. And they will

3014
02:45:20,320 --> 02:45:24,600
Speaker 11: weirdly obsess with everything to be mean and cruel and

3015
02:45:24,760 --> 02:45:28,000
Speaker 11: small in their ideas. And I didn't hear anything last

3016
02:45:28,080 --> 02:45:30,640
Speaker 11: night that did anything different to that, so I'll stand

3017
02:45:30,680 --> 02:45:33,120
Speaker 11: by that. I just think Americans know this is just

3018
02:45:33,200 --> 02:45:34,640
Speaker 11: weird stuff to be focused on.

3019
02:45:34,920 --> 02:45:38,360
Speaker 9: Now we on nickod happen here and behind the Bastards

3020
02:45:38,400 --> 02:45:41,240
Speaker 9: have similarly been advocating for this type of framing for

3021
02:45:41,280 --> 02:45:44,880
Speaker 9: the New Right for quite a long while, Like Robert,

3022
02:45:44,920 --> 02:45:47,200
Speaker 9: I know you've been like really pushing for this as

3023
02:45:47,240 --> 02:45:49,040
Speaker 9: a tactic for years now.

3024
02:45:49,600 --> 02:45:49,920
Speaker 3: Yeah.

3025
02:45:50,040 --> 02:45:52,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, if they'd made me the vice presidential candidate three

3026
02:45:52,879 --> 02:45:55,240
Speaker 2: years ago, I really could have made some progress on this,

3027
02:45:55,480 --> 02:45:57,520
Speaker 2: but had to see what they've got up.

3028
02:45:57,800 --> 02:46:00,320
Speaker 9: Like, we decided on the name from Alli's new show,

3029
02:46:00,720 --> 02:46:03,520
Speaker 9: like very early this year, Like this was way way

3030
02:46:03,560 --> 02:46:06,080
Speaker 9: before like the Weird Attacks went viral.

3031
02:46:06,320 --> 02:46:09,400
Speaker 2: It's really the only name we ever considered was weird

3032
02:46:09,440 --> 02:46:10,080
Speaker 2: Little Guys.

3033
02:46:10,160 --> 02:46:13,359
Speaker 9: Yeah, because that's how we like internally refer to these freaks.

3034
02:46:13,400 --> 02:46:18,200
Speaker 9: Because these are all unhinged, anti social freaks, and many

3035
02:46:18,280 --> 02:46:22,040
Speaker 9: of them revel in being this antagonistic force. I think

3036
02:46:22,080 --> 02:46:25,400
Speaker 9: part of their self image is the idea that liberals

3037
02:46:25,480 --> 02:46:30,039
Speaker 9: find them dangerous, and the Weird Attack is very disempowering

3038
02:46:30,120 --> 02:46:33,440
Speaker 9: for these people. It reframes them from this like scary

3039
02:46:33,520 --> 02:46:37,200
Speaker 9: existential threat to being more akin to your just off putting,

3040
02:46:37,360 --> 02:46:40,720
Speaker 9: creepy uncle. Here's a clip of Wals himself kind of

3041
02:46:40,760 --> 02:46:43,080
Speaker 9: explaining the methodology behind this attack.

3042
02:46:43,400 --> 02:46:46,600
Speaker 13: You've gotten some attention this week for calling Trump Advance

3043
02:46:46,680 --> 02:46:50,840
Speaker 13: and Republicans in general weird, and I think that You're

3044
02:46:50,879 --> 02:46:54,000
Speaker 13: the one that set this tone, and there's this shift.

3045
02:46:54,480 --> 02:46:57,320
Speaker 13: The Harris campaign seems to be following your lead, echoing

3046
02:46:57,320 --> 02:47:00,800
Speaker 13: this language. Why do you think weird a more effective

3047
02:47:00,840 --> 02:47:03,959
Speaker 13: attack line against Trump and what Democrats have been done previously,

3048
02:47:03,959 --> 02:47:07,480
Speaker 13: which is argue that he's an existential threat to democracy.

3049
02:47:09,120 --> 02:47:11,880
Speaker 11: Yeah, and it's an observation on this, and you know,

3050
02:47:11,959 --> 02:47:13,720
Speaker 11: being a school teacher, I see a lot of things.

3051
02:47:13,760 --> 02:47:17,119
Speaker 11: But my point on this was is people kept talking about, look,

3052
02:47:17,160 --> 02:47:19,400
Speaker 11: Donald Trump is going to put women's lives at risk.

3053
02:47:19,400 --> 02:47:22,320
Speaker 11: That's one hundred percent true. Donald Trump is potentially going

3054
02:47:22,320 --> 02:47:26,160
Speaker 11: to end constitutional liberties that we have, end voting. I

3055
02:47:26,240 --> 02:47:28,640
Speaker 11: do believe all those things are a real possibility, but

3056
02:47:28,680 --> 02:47:30,199
Speaker 11: it gives him way too much power.

3057
02:47:30,640 --> 02:47:31,440
Speaker 8: Listen to the guy.

3058
02:47:31,480 --> 02:47:35,200
Speaker 11: He's talking about Hannibal Lecter and shocking sharks and just

3059
02:47:35,480 --> 02:47:38,440
Speaker 11: whatever crazy thing pops into his mind. And I thought,

3060
02:47:38,480 --> 02:47:40,320
Speaker 11: we just give him way too much credit. And I

3061
02:47:40,320 --> 02:47:42,320
Speaker 11: think one of the things is is when you just

3062
02:47:42,440 --> 02:47:45,960
Speaker 11: ratchet down some of the you know, the scariness or whatever,

3063
02:47:46,160 --> 02:47:48,560
Speaker 11: and just name it what it is. I got to

3064
02:47:48,560 --> 02:47:50,760
Speaker 11: tell you my observation on this is, have you ever

3065
02:47:50,760 --> 02:47:51,680
Speaker 11: seen the guy laugh?

3066
02:47:52,440 --> 02:47:53,560
Speaker 3: That seems very weird?

3067
02:47:53,600 --> 02:47:55,840
Speaker 11: To me that an adult can go through six and

3068
02:47:55,840 --> 02:47:57,760
Speaker 11: a half years of being in the public eye if

3069
02:47:57,800 --> 02:48:00,240
Speaker 11: he has left it's at someone, not with someone. That

3070
02:48:00,640 --> 02:48:03,520
Speaker 11: is weird behavior. And I don't think you call it

3071
02:48:03,560 --> 02:48:06,199
Speaker 11: anything else. It is simply what we're observing.

3072
02:48:06,320 --> 02:48:06,520
Speaker 8: Now.

3073
02:48:06,560 --> 02:48:09,000
Speaker 9: An interesting side effect of the weird framing is that

3074
02:48:09,040 --> 02:48:13,880
Speaker 9: it's left these ultra conservatives utterly incapable of effectively combating

3075
02:48:13,879 --> 02:48:16,680
Speaker 9: this line of attack. They've been so used to being

3076
02:48:16,720 --> 02:48:19,480
Speaker 9: on the offense that they never really prepared for the

3077
02:48:19,520 --> 02:48:22,039
Speaker 9: position that they're now stuck in. Over a decade of

3078
02:48:22,280 --> 02:48:24,879
Speaker 9: they go low, we go high, conditioned the rights to

3079
02:48:24,920 --> 02:48:28,640
Speaker 9: be completely unable to cope with being put on mimetic defense.

3080
02:48:29,600 --> 02:48:29,840
Speaker 3: Now.

3081
02:48:30,600 --> 02:48:34,320
Speaker 9: My favorite retort of the weird claim is from conservative

3082
02:48:34,320 --> 02:48:38,840
Speaker 9: pundent Helen Andrew, who wrote, quote, calling people weird is

3083
02:48:38,879 --> 02:48:44,920
Speaker 9: such feminine behavior. Textbook sex difference. Men engage in open conflict,

3084
02:48:45,240 --> 02:48:50,320
Speaker 9: women police conformity. It's honestly disorienting to hear male politicians

3085
02:48:50,440 --> 02:48:51,320
Speaker 9: use the line.

3086
02:48:51,720 --> 02:48:54,119
Speaker 2: I love too that we're talking about how men are

3087
02:48:54,520 --> 02:48:58,040
Speaker 2: naturally drawn to open, honorable conflict when talking about a

3088
02:48:58,080 --> 02:49:01,560
Speaker 2: bunch of people who never log off, like everything you.

3089
02:49:01,640 --> 02:49:03,800
Speaker 3: Do is find the keyboard motherfucker.

3090
02:49:03,920 --> 02:49:07,640
Speaker 9: It's amazing that they're combating this by saying the weirdest

3091
02:49:07,640 --> 02:49:08,560
Speaker 9: things imaginable.

3092
02:49:08,680 --> 02:49:09,040
Speaker 3: Yeah.

3093
02:49:09,120 --> 02:49:12,640
Speaker 9: Now, I think this one's only one uped by a

3094
02:49:12,720 --> 02:49:16,000
Speaker 9: reply to this very post by the author of the

3095
02:49:16,080 --> 02:49:22,840
Speaker 9: self published Kingmaker trilogy named Airy Mendelssohn Christ who posted

3096
02:49:22,879 --> 02:49:26,480
Speaker 9: a meme featuring a crowd of NPC wojacks all saying

3097
02:49:26,480 --> 02:49:28,880
Speaker 9: the word weird, which which I find actually be a

3098
02:49:28,959 --> 02:49:32,680
Speaker 9: very powerful image depicting all the masses having agreed upon

3099
02:49:33,080 --> 02:49:36,920
Speaker 9: that Republicans are weird. But Mendelssohn wrote quote, it's both

3100
02:49:36,959 --> 02:49:41,520
Speaker 9: feminine behavior and heard behavior. They all started calling them

3101
02:49:41,640 --> 02:49:45,959
Speaker 9: weird at once. It was obviously planned, cooked up by

3102
02:49:46,000 --> 02:49:50,040
Speaker 9: a sophisticated wordsmith, and then distributed by their network.

3103
02:49:51,280 --> 02:49:56,200
Speaker 2: Yes, only the most sophisticated of wordsmiths knows the word weird.

3104
02:49:56,600 --> 02:49:57,439
Speaker 3: It's amazing.

3105
02:49:57,760 --> 02:50:00,360
Speaker 2: You've got to dig deep into the dictionary to hit

3106
02:50:00,400 --> 02:50:00,800
Speaker 2: that one.

3107
02:50:00,959 --> 02:50:03,720
Speaker 9: Truly, truly, truly, this must be the work of a

3108
02:50:03,760 --> 02:50:05,400
Speaker 9: sophisticated word smith.

3109
02:50:07,200 --> 02:50:10,200
Speaker 3: It's it's phenomenal, that's fucking funny.

3110
02:50:11,240 --> 02:50:15,280
Speaker 9: So in trying to combat the weird accusation, the right

3111
02:50:15,320 --> 02:50:18,360
Speaker 9: has mostly opted for either responding with escalation, like in

3112
02:50:18,400 --> 02:50:21,119
Speaker 9: the case of the horse seamen meme, which only makes

3113
02:50:21,160 --> 02:50:24,039
Speaker 9: them seem kind of more off putting, or just going

3114
02:50:24,040 --> 02:50:27,920
Speaker 9: for the classic Uno reverso right, I'm not weird, you're weird.

3115
02:50:28,400 --> 02:50:31,320
Speaker 9: This is the ultimate sign of desperation and impending defeat.

3116
02:50:31,400 --> 02:50:33,800
Speaker 9: I am rubber, you are glue. Whatever you say bounces

3117
02:50:33,800 --> 02:50:36,160
Speaker 9: off me and sticks to you. On top of being

3118
02:50:36,160 --> 02:50:40,000
Speaker 9: a strategy that often signals one has already lost. By

3119
02:50:40,040 --> 02:50:43,520
Speaker 9: employing this tactic, you make the very basic error of

3120
02:50:43,640 --> 02:50:47,480
Speaker 9: repeating the enemy's claim against you, thus continuing to amplify

3121
02:50:47,560 --> 02:50:49,040
Speaker 9: and spread the original attack.

3122
02:50:49,520 --> 02:50:50,720
Speaker 3: Here's a clip from Trump.

3123
02:50:51,640 --> 02:50:54,800
Speaker 14: There's something weird with that guy. He's a weird guy.

3124
02:50:55,440 --> 02:50:59,080
Speaker 14: JD is not weird. He's a solid rock. I happen

3125
02:50:59,160 --> 02:51:02,199
Speaker 14: to be a very solid rock. We're not weird. We're

3126
02:51:02,240 --> 02:51:05,760
Speaker 14: other things, perhaps, but we're not weird. But he is

3127
02:51:05,840 --> 02:51:08,560
Speaker 14: a weird guy. He walks on the stage. Is something

3128
02:51:08,600 --> 02:51:12,200
Speaker 14: wrong with that guy? And he called me weird? And

3129
02:51:12,200 --> 02:51:14,360
Speaker 14: then the frank news media picks it up. That was

3130
02:51:14,360 --> 02:51:16,480
Speaker 14: the word of the day, weird, weird, weird. They're all

3131
02:51:16,520 --> 02:51:17,320
Speaker 14: go on now.

3132
02:51:17,320 --> 02:51:21,720
Speaker 9: Similarly, I found a Megan Kelly video titled Tucker Carlson

3133
02:51:21,800 --> 02:51:24,600
Speaker 9: explains why JD Vance is actually normal?

3134
02:51:27,080 --> 02:51:31,840
Speaker 2: Great should Tucker notes the most normal man alive.

3135
02:51:32,640 --> 02:51:35,640
Speaker 9: And Trump supporters have brought signs to his rallies that

3136
02:51:35,680 --> 02:51:39,360
Speaker 9: read Donald Trump is not weird. My I Am not

3137
02:51:39,440 --> 02:51:41,880
Speaker 9: weird shirt has people asking a lot of questions are

3138
02:51:41,800 --> 02:51:45,360
Speaker 9: already answered by my shirt. It's it's a very a

3139
02:51:45,480 --> 02:51:48,879
Speaker 9: very basic mistake. Now, there has been some pushback among

3140
02:51:48,959 --> 02:51:51,960
Speaker 9: certain swasp people on the left who have historically associated

3141
02:51:52,000 --> 02:51:55,200
Speaker 9: themselves as like societal outcasts and have found comfort in

3142
02:51:55,280 --> 02:51:58,840
Speaker 9: embracing words like weird and freak, and on a certain level,

3143
02:51:58,840 --> 02:52:01,120
Speaker 9: I understand this, but I think this point of view

3144
02:52:01,240 --> 02:52:03,640
Speaker 9: is making the same fundamental error as the conservative right

3145
02:52:03,879 --> 02:52:07,240
Speaker 9: when they try to flip around the weird accusation onto Democrats, progressives,

3146
02:52:07,240 --> 02:52:10,880
Speaker 9: and people on the left by primarily using homophobia and transphobia.

3147
02:52:11,240 --> 02:52:14,560
Speaker 9: We're using the same word to refer to two very

3148
02:52:14,600 --> 02:52:19,959
Speaker 9: different things. Do they call drag Queen's weird for being transgressive? Meanwhile, Trump,

3149
02:52:20,000 --> 02:52:22,600
Speaker 9: Advance and the far right are weird because they are

3150
02:52:23,160 --> 02:52:27,120
Speaker 9: oddly reactionary. They're trying to resurrect a long dead world

3151
02:52:27,400 --> 02:52:30,640
Speaker 9: by forming an authoritary movement behind a reality TV star

3152
02:52:30,879 --> 02:52:34,880
Speaker 9: who sounds like you're rambling conspiracy theorist uncle. It's a

3153
02:52:35,000 --> 02:52:38,360
Speaker 9: battle over the terrain of normalcy as a shifting category.

3154
02:52:38,680 --> 02:52:42,000
Speaker 9: And while I sympathize with some hostility to the hegemony

3155
02:52:42,000 --> 02:52:45,400
Speaker 9: of normalcy, how I often follow outside that category. I

3156
02:52:45,400 --> 02:52:48,440
Speaker 9: believe it's also paramount that we sabotage reactionary efforts to

3157
02:52:48,520 --> 02:52:52,080
Speaker 9: gain any territory. So that's kind of the cycle of

3158
02:52:52,200 --> 02:52:55,480
Speaker 9: weird And we will be back to talk about this

3159
02:52:55,560 --> 02:53:09,440
Speaker 9: kind of final new stage of meme politics after this break. Okay,

3160
02:53:09,480 --> 02:53:12,879
Speaker 9: we are once again, so back now. I believe this

3161
02:53:12,920 --> 02:53:16,360
Speaker 9: election will truly be characterized by the complete perliferation of

3162
02:53:16,480 --> 02:53:19,840
Speaker 9: meme style politics. Now, even without like the use of

3163
02:53:20,360 --> 02:53:23,879
Speaker 9: a meme image, I think politics, especially this year, has

3164
02:53:23,920 --> 02:53:26,680
Speaker 9: itself functioned and spread like a meme.

3165
02:53:27,080 --> 02:53:27,240
Speaker 12: Now.

3166
02:53:27,360 --> 02:53:29,440
Speaker 9: This is something that's been happening for the past like

3167
02:53:29,480 --> 02:53:33,040
Speaker 9: eight years, certainly, but the way it's happened this summer,

3168
02:53:33,120 --> 02:53:35,800
Speaker 9: I think has been slightly unique. The Weird attack is,

3169
02:53:35,879 --> 02:53:38,800
Speaker 9: you know, the ideal example of this. But even if

3170
02:53:38,840 --> 02:53:40,959
Speaker 9: you just look back a few months ago, we were

3171
02:53:40,959 --> 02:53:44,119
Speaker 9: in a very different position. It was a very different story,

3172
02:53:44,400 --> 02:53:47,000
Speaker 9: and I'll let Stephen Colbert demonstrate that.

3173
02:53:47,280 --> 02:53:49,560
Speaker 15: So the Biden campaign wants to build on the new

3174
02:53:49,640 --> 02:53:53,760
Speaker 15: viral trend of handground Pa the phone because reportedly they're

3175
02:53:53,840 --> 02:53:54,360
Speaker 15: looking for.

3176
02:53:54,440 --> 02:53:56,439
Speaker 3: A meme page manager.

3177
02:53:57,680 --> 02:54:00,879
Speaker 15: So look forward to some hot new Biden's social content

3178
02:54:01,040 --> 02:54:07,440
Speaker 15: like Irmagird, Trumper's hurdler I can't has youth votes, and

3179
02:54:07,560 --> 02:54:12,599
Speaker 15: of course for the very online skibbitty Biden Biden.

3180
02:54:13,760 --> 02:54:16,880
Speaker 12: Gwity Biden t dog.

3181
02:54:19,920 --> 02:54:23,840
Speaker 9: Okay, I I really want to play more of that cliff,

3182
02:54:24,200 --> 02:54:26,960
Speaker 9: but I'm afraid I already included a little too much.

3183
02:54:28,520 --> 02:54:30,560
Speaker 3: What a dire situation that is?

3184
02:54:30,920 --> 02:54:34,199
Speaker 9: That is that that is the peak of the liberals,

3185
02:54:34,560 --> 02:54:41,360
Speaker 9: mimetic attacks, just truly episcopal. Oh my god, I've become

3186
02:54:41,480 --> 02:54:45,080
Speaker 9: obsessed with skibbitty Biden just because it demonstrates such like

3187
02:54:45,160 --> 02:54:48,800
Speaker 9: an inevitable like self defeat that that was like the

3188
02:54:48,840 --> 02:54:52,280
Speaker 9: best thing these people had, like cooking. As it's kind

3189
02:54:52,280 --> 02:54:55,000
Speaker 9: of obvious by the clip. This led towards the death

3190
02:54:55,040 --> 02:54:57,680
Speaker 9: of the Biden campaign. They really had nothing in the tank.

3191
02:54:58,040 --> 02:55:01,920
Speaker 9: Biden was a shambling old man. And then like two

3192
02:55:01,920 --> 02:55:05,720
Speaker 9: months later, Kamala kicked off her campaign by embracing the

3193
02:55:05,879 --> 02:55:08,600
Speaker 9: Kamala is Brat Summer, which yes to may have killed

3194
02:55:08,600 --> 02:55:10,920
Speaker 9: Bratt Summer but it did help secure the vibe shift,

3195
02:55:11,280 --> 02:55:12,800
Speaker 9: skyrocketing her popularity.

3196
02:55:13,040 --> 02:55:15,720
Speaker 2: Quite frankly, I was ready for bratt summer today.

3197
02:55:15,879 --> 02:55:20,600
Speaker 9: Yes, sure, but I think her weaponization of that term,

3198
02:55:21,120 --> 02:55:24,560
Speaker 9: endorsed by Charlie XCX, I think did help skyrocket her

3199
02:55:24,600 --> 02:55:27,960
Speaker 9: early popularity and showed an early embrace of online culture.

3200
02:55:28,840 --> 02:55:32,760
Speaker 9: And I believe the Harris campaign actually owes a lot

3201
02:55:32,879 --> 02:55:36,600
Speaker 9: more to memes. In a ironic twist of fate, there

3202
02:55:36,680 --> 02:55:39,760
Speaker 9: is a compelling argument to be made that Kamala Harris's

3203
02:55:39,840 --> 02:55:42,440
Speaker 9: rise to the top of the presidential ticket can at

3204
02:55:42,520 --> 02:55:47,320
Speaker 9: least be in part tracked back to Republican attacks which

3205
02:55:47,440 --> 02:55:51,720
Speaker 9: spawned memes. Last year. The account RNC Research, ran by

3206
02:55:51,760 --> 02:55:55,640
Speaker 9: the GOP posted multiple clips and edits attacking Kamala Harris

3207
02:55:55,680 --> 02:55:58,880
Speaker 9: for what they saw as odd phrases and awkward moments.

3208
02:55:59,480 --> 02:56:02,480
Speaker 9: Earlier this year, some of those videos from RNC research

3209
02:56:02,560 --> 02:56:06,120
Speaker 9: went viral outside of right wing Twitter, which led to

3210
02:56:06,160 --> 02:56:09,920
Speaker 9: an ironic or post ironic embrace of Kamala Harris among

3211
02:56:10,040 --> 02:56:13,600
Speaker 9: liberal and leftist posters. Now the biggest one was the

3212
02:56:13,640 --> 02:56:16,640
Speaker 9: Coconut Tree video, which spawned memes that started to pick

3213
02:56:16,680 --> 02:56:21,160
Speaker 9: up steam in January and didn't peak until July. Another

3214
02:56:21,160 --> 02:56:24,200
Speaker 9: one of RNZ Research's videos, a four minute compilation of

3215
02:56:24,400 --> 02:56:28,080
Speaker 9: Kamala Harris saying what can be unburdened by what has

3216
02:56:28,120 --> 02:56:31,160
Speaker 9: been provided the inspiration for the title of a document

3217
02:56:31,240 --> 02:56:34,960
Speaker 9: that spread around political circles postulating Kamala Harris as the

3218
02:56:34,959 --> 02:56:37,080
Speaker 9: best successor to Biden if you were to drop out

3219
02:56:37,080 --> 02:56:40,160
Speaker 9: of the race instead of a messy last minute primary

3220
02:56:40,280 --> 02:56:43,080
Speaker 9: or an open convention. And I think these memes did

3221
02:56:43,120 --> 02:56:46,600
Speaker 9: a lot to increase Kamala's favorability in the first half

3222
02:56:46,640 --> 02:56:49,880
Speaker 9: of this year. Kamala prior to this was a relatively

3223
02:56:49,959 --> 02:56:52,640
Speaker 9: kind of disliked figure nationally. She was one of the

3224
02:56:52,680 --> 02:56:54,879
Speaker 9: first drop out of the twenty twenty presidential race.

3225
02:56:55,280 --> 02:56:58,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, she wasn't I wouldn't even say disliked as much

3226
02:56:58,200 --> 02:57:02,040
Speaker 2: as like not figure like the big The number one

3227
02:57:02,040 --> 02:57:03,920
Speaker 2: thing people said about her is that she's been a

3228
02:57:03,920 --> 02:57:05,720
Speaker 2: non entity as a vice president.

3229
02:57:06,080 --> 02:57:11,360
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, And she certainly wasn't popular. Yes, definitely not popular.

3230
02:57:11,959 --> 02:57:15,359
Speaker 9: So although the GP may have inadvertently helped to improve

3231
02:57:15,440 --> 02:57:18,640
Speaker 9: the public profile of Kamala Harris and have failed to

3232
02:57:18,680 --> 02:57:22,840
Speaker 9: effectively combat the weird attacks, they have not totally failed

3233
02:57:22,920 --> 02:57:26,240
Speaker 9: on the me medic warfare front. The past two months,

3234
02:57:26,280 --> 02:57:29,440
Speaker 9: the right has landed on a somewhat effective memes style

3235
02:57:29,520 --> 02:57:33,240
Speaker 9: politics by utilizing a combination of disinformation and AI images

3236
02:57:33,320 --> 02:57:36,280
Speaker 9: to create fake news stories that rile up their base

3237
02:57:36,320 --> 02:57:40,359
Speaker 9: on certain key issues so far, mainly trans people and immigration.

3238
02:57:40,879 --> 02:57:41,039
Speaker 3: Now.

3239
02:57:41,080 --> 02:57:43,160
Speaker 9: A few months ago I did an episode on how

3240
02:57:43,160 --> 02:57:46,199
Speaker 9: the Right's been using memes to create this fake epidemic

3241
02:57:46,520 --> 02:57:50,400
Speaker 9: of transgender mass shooters, and then in July, a new

3242
02:57:50,440 --> 02:57:54,640
Speaker 9: anti trans syop went super viral. False claims that the

3243
02:57:54,640 --> 02:57:58,720
Speaker 9: Algerian Olympic boxer Iman Khleif is transgender or in some

3244
02:57:58,800 --> 02:58:03,520
Speaker 9: kind of unverified way quote unquote biologically male spread around

3245
02:58:03,640 --> 02:58:06,680
Speaker 9: online with the help of British newspapers and went just

3246
02:58:06,800 --> 02:58:11,400
Speaker 9: completely viral for a whole week, with the disinformation subsequently

3247
02:58:11,440 --> 02:58:14,920
Speaker 9: becoming a news story itself. This fake story caught traction

3248
02:58:15,000 --> 02:58:17,720
Speaker 9: after an Italian boxer quit a match forty five seconds

3249
02:58:17,760 --> 02:58:20,520
Speaker 9: into a fight after receiving a single hard blow to

3250
02:58:20,560 --> 02:58:24,640
Speaker 9: the face. Anti trans memes are a well worn part

3251
02:58:24,760 --> 02:58:27,560
Speaker 9: of this type of disinfo ecosystem, and there was no

3252
02:58:27,720 --> 02:58:31,920
Speaker 9: shortage of trans sports memes now using Khalif, I'm going

3253
02:58:31,920 --> 02:58:35,000
Speaker 9: to quote from Ruby Hammad in Al Jazeera quote Khalif's

3254
02:58:35,040 --> 02:58:38,840
Speaker 9: subsequent match was against Hungarian Anna Hamari, who in the

3255
02:58:38,879 --> 02:58:41,800
Speaker 9: lead up posted and deleted an image that I believe

3256
02:58:42,000 --> 02:58:44,960
Speaker 9: to be among the most significant of the entire affair

3257
02:58:45,280 --> 02:58:48,240
Speaker 9: because of how it lays the subtext bear. In this

3258
02:58:48,400 --> 02:58:52,680
Speaker 9: AI generated image that Hamari sourced from Instagram, Khalif was

3259
02:58:52,680 --> 02:58:55,840
Speaker 9: not merely represented as a man towering over a dainty,

3260
02:58:55,959 --> 02:58:59,400
Speaker 9: vulnerable white woman, but was denied humanity altogether and drawn

3261
02:58:59,440 --> 02:59:03,840
Speaker 9: as a super natural, mythical beast unquote. Many other AI

3262
02:59:03,920 --> 02:59:08,400
Speaker 9: images of Khalif spread throughout this viral trend, some with

3263
02:59:08,800 --> 02:59:11,480
Speaker 9: just Khalif having like a stereotypical like male body that

3264
02:59:11,520 --> 02:59:14,520
Speaker 9: were AA generated, and others with this like similar like

3265
02:59:14,520 --> 02:59:18,879
Speaker 9: like kind of like monster ish look. And I think

3266
02:59:19,200 --> 02:59:22,039
Speaker 9: beyond the actual use of these like AI memes and

3267
02:59:22,200 --> 02:59:24,840
Speaker 9: kind of anti trans memes using Khalif, I think the

3268
02:59:24,840 --> 02:59:28,160
Speaker 9: way the actual story spread was like a meme. I

3269
02:59:28,200 --> 02:59:30,760
Speaker 9: think that's how I was able to gain such like

3270
02:59:30,800 --> 02:59:33,119
Speaker 9: a viral traction in just like a few days.

3271
02:59:33,760 --> 02:59:34,040
Speaker 3: I think.

3272
02:59:34,120 --> 02:59:37,280
Speaker 9: The next version of this is the Eating Cat's story,

3273
02:59:37,400 --> 02:59:40,760
Speaker 9: which started with a post to a Springfield crime watch

3274
02:59:40,879 --> 02:59:43,600
Speaker 9: Facebook group from someone who shared a fourth hand account

3275
02:59:43,879 --> 02:59:45,959
Speaker 9: based on a rumor from a neighbor who claims to

3276
02:59:45,959 --> 02:59:47,640
Speaker 9: have heard the story from a friend who heard the

3277
02:59:47,680 --> 02:59:51,680
Speaker 9: story from an unnamed source. Now NewsGuard attracted down the

3278
02:59:51,720 --> 02:59:54,480
Speaker 9: woman who told the Facebook poster about the story, and

3279
02:59:54,520 --> 02:59:57,000
Speaker 9: she told them, quote, I'm not sure I'm the most

3280
02:59:57,040 --> 02:59:59,440
Speaker 9: credible source because I don't actually know the person who

3281
02:59:59,480 --> 03:00:00,240
Speaker 9: lost the cat.

3282
03:00:00,440 --> 03:00:02,039
Speaker 3: I don't have any proof.

3283
03:00:03,120 --> 03:00:07,440
Speaker 12: In Springfield, they're eating the dogs the people that came in,

3284
03:00:07,680 --> 03:00:12,640
Speaker 12: they're eating the cats, they're eating they're eating the pets of.

3285
03:00:12,640 --> 03:00:14,520
Speaker 8: The people that live there.

3286
03:00:14,959 --> 03:00:17,879
Speaker 16: I just want to clarify here. You bring up Springfield, Ohio,

3287
03:00:18,160 --> 03:00:20,680
Speaker 16: and ABC News did reach out to the city manager there.

3288
03:00:20,840 --> 03:00:23,280
Speaker 16: He told us there had been no credible reports of

3289
03:00:23,320 --> 03:00:26,320
Speaker 16: specific claims of pets being harmed, injured, or abused by

3290
03:00:26,400 --> 03:00:28,680
Speaker 16: individuals within the immigrant community.

3291
03:00:28,720 --> 03:00:29,840
Speaker 8: All I'll seeing people on Tellivien.

3292
03:00:29,920 --> 03:00:32,000
Speaker 12: Let me just say this is the people on television

3293
03:00:32,040 --> 03:00:35,200
Speaker 12: say my dog was taken and used for food. So

3294
03:00:35,600 --> 03:00:37,600
Speaker 12: maybe he said that, and maybe that's a good thing

3295
03:00:37,640 --> 03:00:38,920
Speaker 12: to say for a city manager.

3296
03:00:38,959 --> 03:00:41,520
Speaker 16: I'm not taking this from television people on television to say.

3297
03:00:41,400 --> 03:00:44,760
Speaker 8: Man dog was eaten by the people that went there.

3298
03:00:44,959 --> 03:00:47,680
Speaker 9: Meanwhile, the Ohio Division of Wildlife told TMZ that the

3299
03:00:47,720 --> 03:00:51,760
Speaker 9: main photo of an alleged Haitian immigrant carrying a debt goose,

3300
03:00:51,800 --> 03:00:55,480
Speaker 9: presumably on the way to eat it, was in fact

3301
03:00:55,560 --> 03:01:00,119
Speaker 9: a random black man removing roadkill from a street in Columbus, Ohio,

3302
03:01:00,560 --> 03:01:03,560
Speaker 9: with no evidence to suggest he is from Haiti, he

3303
03:01:03,640 --> 03:01:07,320
Speaker 9: is an immigrant, or was intending to eat said goose.

3304
03:01:08,320 --> 03:01:12,080
Speaker 9: Still jd Vance particularly spent a lot of work boosting

3305
03:01:12,120 --> 03:01:13,160
Speaker 9: this fake news story.

3306
03:01:13,360 --> 03:01:16,119
Speaker 3: Also, if he was, what's wrong with eating a goose?

3307
03:01:16,400 --> 03:01:19,560
Speaker 9: Yes, exactly, Like there's there's so many, so many problems

3308
03:01:19,600 --> 03:01:24,840
Speaker 9: with the Haitians are eating at pets and wildlife meme,

3309
03:01:24,959 --> 03:01:27,039
Speaker 9: and we don't we don't have time to like fully

3310
03:01:27,080 --> 03:01:29,160
Speaker 9: get into it. It's just kind of one anecdote in

3311
03:01:29,200 --> 03:01:32,720
Speaker 9: this kind of series of mimetic attacks. And I think

3312
03:01:32,800 --> 03:01:36,400
Speaker 9: one of the guys who was spearheading this was jd Vance,

3313
03:01:36,400 --> 03:01:38,960
Speaker 9: who spent a lot of effort trying to push the

3314
03:01:39,000 --> 03:01:42,200
Speaker 9: story into the national spotlight, either the day of or

3315
03:01:42,240 --> 03:01:45,720
Speaker 9: before the postential debate of Vans tweeted quote. In the

3316
03:01:45,800 --> 03:01:49,040
Speaker 9: last several weeks, my office has received many inquiries from

3317
03:01:49,120 --> 03:01:52,480
Speaker 9: actual residents of Springfield who have said their neighbor's pets

3318
03:01:52,560 --> 03:01:57,240
Speaker 9: or local wildlife were abducted by Haitian migrants. It's possible,

3319
03:01:57,640 --> 03:02:01,000
Speaker 9: of course, that all these rumors will turn out to

3320
03:02:01,080 --> 03:02:04,760
Speaker 9: be false. Do you know what's confirmed that a child

3321
03:02:04,840 --> 03:02:07,320
Speaker 9: was murdered by a Haitian migrant who had no right

3322
03:02:07,360 --> 03:02:09,960
Speaker 9: to be here unquote, And now I think the last

3323
03:02:09,959 --> 03:02:13,560
Speaker 9: thing that he's referring to was an unfortunate car accident,

3324
03:02:14,000 --> 03:02:17,720
Speaker 9: and the Haitian man was a legal immigrant, not an

3325
03:02:17,760 --> 03:02:21,120
Speaker 9: illegal immigrant. And the father of the child who died

3326
03:02:21,200 --> 03:02:24,760
Speaker 9: has been advocating that people stop using his child's death

3327
03:02:24,800 --> 03:02:29,280
Speaker 9: as this like racist ammunition in this weird culture war debate.

3328
03:02:29,520 --> 03:02:31,199
Speaker 3: God, it's bleak, which is.

3329
03:02:31,200 --> 03:02:34,480
Speaker 9: Really hard to see of man pleading that these like

3330
03:02:34,720 --> 03:02:38,280
Speaker 9: unhinged racists stop using the death of his son. Yeah,

3331
03:02:38,320 --> 03:02:42,760
Speaker 9: to further like they're just extremely gross and like transparent agenda.

3332
03:02:43,120 --> 03:02:46,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's one of the more disgusting things that's happened.

3333
03:02:46,840 --> 03:02:49,520
Speaker 9: Part of the spread of the eating a pets story

3334
03:02:49,760 --> 03:02:53,279
Speaker 9: has been the use of AI images, particularly of black

3335
03:02:53,320 --> 03:02:56,840
Speaker 9: men kidnapping and eating pets, as well as images of

3336
03:02:56,920 --> 03:03:00,320
Speaker 9: Trump rescuing cats from what I would describe as a

3337
03:03:00,480 --> 03:03:02,800
Speaker 9: horde of immigrants, which is what I would assume the

3338
03:03:02,840 --> 03:03:07,120
Speaker 9: AA prompt would be. Now, these images aren't necessarily meant

3339
03:03:07,200 --> 03:03:10,800
Speaker 9: to be passed off as real, but in the absence

3340
03:03:10,840 --> 03:03:14,680
Speaker 9: of actual evidence, they serve an important purpose of providing

3341
03:03:14,720 --> 03:03:18,160
Speaker 9: a visual justice stick in people's minds, and I think

3342
03:03:18,200 --> 03:03:20,560
Speaker 9: that that's crucially what's going on with all of these

3343
03:03:20,600 --> 03:03:24,240
Speaker 9: AI images, whether they be of Trump, like saving cats

3344
03:03:24,320 --> 03:03:27,439
Speaker 9: or holding cats, or they just be like very racist

3345
03:03:27,520 --> 03:03:31,240
Speaker 9: depictions of like black men trying to like eat or

3346
03:03:31,360 --> 03:03:34,520
Speaker 9: kidnap people's pets. Earlier this year at the RNC, I

3347
03:03:34,520 --> 03:03:38,280
Speaker 9: know me and Robert went to this panel produced in

3348
03:03:38,320 --> 03:03:41,520
Speaker 9: part by Microsoft talking about the use of like AI

3349
03:03:41,520 --> 03:03:45,000
Speaker 9: images in politics and how they're advocating to like, yeah,

3350
03:03:45,080 --> 03:03:48,040
Speaker 9: not be using AI AI depictions of candidates, which is

3351
03:03:48,040 --> 03:03:51,600
Speaker 9: something that Trump has consistently been doing, posting or retruthing

3352
03:03:52,320 --> 03:03:55,959
Speaker 9: AI videos of Kamala Harris of people like Taylor Swift

3353
03:03:56,040 --> 03:03:59,440
Speaker 9: endorsing him, which then led to Taylor Swift endorsing Kamala Harris,

3354
03:03:59,480 --> 03:04:04,200
Speaker 9: which seemingly upset Trump greatly. Now to me, if you

3355
03:04:04,240 --> 03:04:09,160
Speaker 9: look at the trans Olympics debacle as well as the

3356
03:04:09,200 --> 03:04:13,280
Speaker 9: Springfield incident, it feels like this like endless series of

3357
03:04:13,360 --> 03:04:17,279
Speaker 9: new dis info trends is designed so that individual confrontations

3358
03:04:17,640 --> 03:04:20,680
Speaker 9: just don't matter that much. Like, yeah, pointing out the

3359
03:04:20,720 --> 03:04:24,320
Speaker 9: whole trans Olympics thing is fake just doesn't matter, because

3360
03:04:24,520 --> 03:04:26,680
Speaker 9: then they're going to move on to Haitian immigrants or

3361
03:04:26,760 --> 03:04:31,400
Speaker 9: killing people's pets. Each individual lie is so flimsy, but

3362
03:04:31,520 --> 03:04:34,280
Speaker 9: the constant sequence of them built a structure that has

3363
03:04:34,320 --> 03:04:37,320
Speaker 9: a degree of stability for conservatives, And this is a

3364
03:04:37,320 --> 03:04:40,080
Speaker 9: project that they've been like working towards for a long

3365
03:04:40,120 --> 03:04:42,560
Speaker 9: long time. I know, Robert, we've talked about this.

3366
03:04:42,760 --> 03:04:45,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, this, I mean I saw the start of this

3367
03:04:45,840 --> 03:04:48,280
Speaker 2: as like a kid, right, like this is kind of

3368
03:04:48,320 --> 03:04:52,520
Speaker 2: what what guys like Limbaugh were always doing on sort

3369
03:04:52,560 --> 03:04:54,880
Speaker 2: of the ground floor level, you know, you could you

3370
03:04:54,920 --> 03:04:56,720
Speaker 2: can look at I think one of the first big

3371
03:04:57,480 --> 03:05:01,240
Speaker 2: like cleavage points in our realities was the whole Clinton

3372
03:05:01,360 --> 03:05:03,920
Speaker 2: death count thing, which, if you're unaware, is this list

3373
03:05:04,000 --> 03:05:07,560
Speaker 2: Conservative started spreading in like nineteen ninety three or four

3374
03:05:08,200 --> 03:05:10,600
Speaker 2: of all of the people that Bill and Hillary had

3375
03:05:10,640 --> 03:05:13,200
Speaker 2: supposedly had murdered, right, And it was like guys like

3376
03:05:13,280 --> 03:05:16,640
Speaker 2: Vince Foster who'd killed himself, who worked for them, and whatnot,

3377
03:05:16,640 --> 03:05:18,840
Speaker 2: Like it was all bullshit, but it was kind of

3378
03:05:18,879 --> 03:05:21,680
Speaker 2: the start of this, Like, when you get enough of

3379
03:05:21,720 --> 03:05:25,039
Speaker 2: these things, it doesn't matter that each of them takes

3380
03:05:25,120 --> 03:05:28,560
Speaker 2: seconds to debunk. They form a sort of like I

3381
03:05:28,640 --> 03:05:32,520
Speaker 2: a cushion. If you exist within that reality, you can

3382
03:05:32,600 --> 03:05:35,040
Speaker 2: kind of slide along without touching the ground.

3383
03:05:34,879 --> 03:05:38,840
Speaker 9: And definitely now, yeah, it forms like a mesh like

3384
03:05:38,959 --> 03:05:42,440
Speaker 9: net structure that where each individual piece is very weak,

3385
03:05:42,800 --> 03:05:47,199
Speaker 9: but together it provides an actually like pretty pretty resilient

3386
03:05:47,360 --> 03:05:50,879
Speaker 9: like resting place for these people's alternate version of reality.

3387
03:05:51,560 --> 03:05:52,160
Speaker 3: Yeah.

3388
03:05:52,240 --> 03:05:56,520
Speaker 9: Now, Vance is kind of somewhat admitted in some ways

3389
03:05:56,760 --> 03:05:59,599
Speaker 9: to having manufactured this media.

3390
03:05:59,320 --> 03:06:00,879
Speaker 3: Story was interesting to me.

3391
03:06:01,240 --> 03:06:03,880
Speaker 9: Yeah, And I'm going to put that clip here, and

3392
03:06:04,040 --> 03:06:06,240
Speaker 9: I'm going to include a bit of a longer clip

3393
03:06:06,280 --> 03:06:09,960
Speaker 9: than what's usually used in soundbites, just because during this interview,

3394
03:06:10,320 --> 03:06:13,760
Speaker 9: just Vance's behavior and his like pauses are very odd.

3395
03:06:13,800 --> 03:06:15,560
Speaker 9: So there's gonna be a few seconds of like dead space.

3396
03:06:15,600 --> 03:06:17,560
Speaker 9: But that is like in the actual interview.

3397
03:06:17,280 --> 03:06:20,840
Speaker 17: American media totally ignored this stuff until Donald Trump and

3398
03:06:20,879 --> 03:06:22,000
Speaker 17: I start talking.

3399
03:06:21,680 --> 03:06:22,640
Speaker 3: About cat memes.

3400
03:06:22,879 --> 03:06:27,120
Speaker 17: If I have to mean create stories so that the

3401
03:06:27,160 --> 03:06:30,280
Speaker 17: American media actually pays attention to the suffering of the

3402
03:06:30,280 --> 03:06:31,800
Speaker 17: American people, then.

3403
03:06:31,640 --> 03:06:33,560
Speaker 18: That's what I'm going to do, Dana, because you just

3404
03:06:33,560 --> 03:06:41,440
Speaker 18: said that you're creating a public policy. Sorry, you just

3405
03:06:41,480 --> 03:06:42,840
Speaker 18: said that you're creating the story.

3406
03:06:42,959 --> 03:06:43,920
Speaker 3: Is that, Dana.

3407
03:06:45,000 --> 03:06:47,439
Speaker 18: You just said that this is a story that you created.

3408
03:06:48,000 --> 03:06:50,800
Speaker 3: So so then the eating dog are not.

3409
03:06:51,120 --> 03:06:54,279
Speaker 8: We are creating we are, Dana.

3410
03:06:54,440 --> 03:06:57,480
Speaker 17: It comes from first hand accounts from my constituents. I

3411
03:06:57,520 --> 03:06:59,840
Speaker 17: say that we're creating a story, meaning we're creating the

3412
03:07:00,000 --> 03:07:01,520
Speaker 17: American media focusing on it.

3413
03:07:01,680 --> 03:07:01,800
Speaker 19: Now.

3414
03:07:01,879 --> 03:07:04,959
Speaker 9: Vance has subsequently you know, said that no, no, no,

3415
03:07:05,320 --> 03:07:08,560
Speaker 9: I'm getting this information from first hand accounts from my constituents.

3416
03:07:08,760 --> 03:07:11,040
Speaker 9: When I say that I'm creating stories, I'm creating a

3417
03:07:11,080 --> 03:07:13,760
Speaker 9: media story. But it's hard not to see this as

3418
03:07:14,040 --> 03:07:17,040
Speaker 9: a little bit of like a tactical slip on his part.

3419
03:07:17,520 --> 03:07:22,120
Speaker 9: Right now, this has all created a very odd situation

3420
03:07:22,320 --> 03:07:24,400
Speaker 9: for the Republican Party, as we've kind of talked about

3421
03:07:24,400 --> 03:07:27,959
Speaker 9: the past few months. Journalists and researcher Jared Holt wrote, quote,

3422
03:07:28,200 --> 03:07:30,720
Speaker 9: the Trump campaign seems to be doing the same failed

3423
03:07:30,879 --> 03:07:33,960
Speaker 9: dance as the Dessantus one at the moment, pander heavily

3424
03:07:34,000 --> 03:07:37,320
Speaker 9: to terminally online weirdos and get mad when the general

3425
03:07:37,360 --> 03:07:39,400
Speaker 9: public goes, uh, what the fuck?

3426
03:07:40,000 --> 03:07:42,160
Speaker 3: Unquote Yeah, and this is the thing.

3427
03:07:42,320 --> 03:07:45,119
Speaker 9: When you have someone on stage talking about eating pets,

3428
03:07:45,520 --> 03:07:48,600
Speaker 9: that is a turn off for many normal people because

3429
03:07:48,600 --> 03:07:50,600
Speaker 9: they immediately clock this as being.

3430
03:07:50,760 --> 03:07:52,080
Speaker 3: Probably complete bullshit.

3431
03:07:52,640 --> 03:07:55,039
Speaker 9: Yeah, and we're in a very interesting moment in the

3432
03:07:55,080 --> 03:07:58,920
Speaker 9: Republican Party considering the right wings electoral losses in twenty eighteen,

3433
03:07:59,000 --> 03:08:02,320
Speaker 9: twenty twenty, twenty twenty two, and possibly going into twenty

3434
03:08:02,360 --> 03:08:06,360
Speaker 9: twenty four. This kind of weird culture war grievance, anti

3435
03:08:06,360 --> 03:08:09,400
Speaker 9: will strategy just might not be electorally viable when matched

3436
03:08:09,400 --> 03:08:13,720
Speaker 9: against a more normal alternative, and I think making matters worse.

3437
03:08:13,840 --> 03:08:16,560
Speaker 9: The Trump team and the Republican National Committee have spent

3438
03:08:16,600 --> 03:08:18,520
Speaker 9: the past four years handing over a lot of their

3439
03:08:18,600 --> 03:08:22,800
Speaker 9: calms and outreach to just certifiable freaks like Laura lumer Ian,

3440
03:08:22,840 --> 03:08:25,640
Speaker 9: Miles Chung, and limbs of TikTok, people who are very

3441
03:08:25,640 --> 03:08:29,240
Speaker 9: disconnected from what regular people care about, people that are

3442
03:08:29,280 --> 03:08:33,360
Speaker 9: only liked by other really online freaks, and.

3443
03:08:33,360 --> 03:08:35,440
Speaker 2: People who have no crossover appeal.

3444
03:08:35,520 --> 03:08:35,640
Speaker 7: Right.

3445
03:08:35,720 --> 03:08:39,080
Speaker 2: Joe Rogan is such a powerful card in their hand

3446
03:08:39,560 --> 03:08:43,200
Speaker 2: because he has a lot of normal dude appeal, right,

3447
03:08:43,320 --> 03:08:45,760
Speaker 2: and so when he starts parroting a talking point, he

3448
03:08:45,800 --> 03:08:48,560
Speaker 2: can actually push it to people Laura Lumer does not

3449
03:08:48,879 --> 03:08:52,480
Speaker 2: write like if you show a normal person Laura Lumer,

3450
03:08:52,480 --> 03:08:54,920
Speaker 2: they're like, what the fuck is wrong with that lady's face?

3451
03:08:55,959 --> 03:09:00,400
Speaker 9: And they're a very double edged sword because although they

3452
03:09:00,400 --> 03:09:03,160
Speaker 9: are very off putting and that in some ways can

3453
03:09:03,200 --> 03:09:06,800
Speaker 9: like damaged, can damage Trump, they also carry a degree

3454
03:09:06,840 --> 03:09:09,600
Speaker 9: of like very real harm. Oh yeah, Whenever all these

3455
03:09:09,600 --> 03:09:12,320
Speaker 9: people hop onto a trend, a very consistent thing that

3456
03:09:12,360 --> 03:09:16,000
Speaker 9: has followed is bomb threats being called into whatever their

3457
03:09:16,040 --> 03:09:19,720
Speaker 9: target is. I love doing that, whether that be hospitals

3458
03:09:19,760 --> 03:09:23,000
Speaker 9: providing trans healthcare, abortion clinics, or in this case, just

3459
03:09:23,160 --> 03:09:28,080
Speaker 9: schools in Springfield, Ohio, which have now received multiple bomb threats.

3460
03:09:28,600 --> 03:09:30,959
Speaker 9: And again, like it is a very double edged sword

3461
03:09:31,000 --> 03:09:34,880
Speaker 9: because obviously that's like very real harm being done. And

3462
03:09:35,120 --> 03:09:37,360
Speaker 9: you could argue that, you know, that makes the situation

3463
03:09:37,480 --> 03:09:39,600
Speaker 9: worse for the Trump campaign, that the fact that their

3464
03:09:39,640 --> 03:09:43,320
Speaker 9: attacks that they're spreading are resulting in like bomb threats

3465
03:09:43,320 --> 03:09:46,760
Speaker 9: being called into schools, but it also creates a degree

3466
03:09:46,760 --> 03:09:50,160
Speaker 9: of actual harm for like kids and many of the

3467
03:09:50,320 --> 03:09:54,040
Speaker 9: legal Haitian immigrants in Springfield that are now seeing a

3468
03:09:54,160 --> 03:09:59,560
Speaker 9: very unprecedented as of recent wave of like extremely racist attacks.

3469
03:10:00,280 --> 03:10:03,680
Speaker 9: There's a good article by Jared Holt in MSNBC that

3470
03:10:03,760 --> 03:10:06,400
Speaker 9: kind of goes into this topic specifically that I'll link

3471
03:10:06,440 --> 03:10:10,080
Speaker 9: in the sources below. So yeah, that kind of rounds

3472
03:10:10,200 --> 03:10:13,520
Speaker 9: up my update on the current state of meme politics,

3473
03:10:13,520 --> 03:10:16,160
Speaker 9: all of its various forms that's taken these past few months,

3474
03:10:16,640 --> 03:10:21,039
Speaker 9: from couch fucking jokes to bomb threats in Springfield, and

3475
03:10:21,080 --> 03:10:24,520
Speaker 9: it's a very dominant form. Like I don't remember memes

3476
03:10:24,560 --> 03:10:26,320
Speaker 9: being this front and center at least in the twenty

3477
03:10:26,320 --> 03:10:26,920
Speaker 9: twenty election.

3478
03:10:27,600 --> 03:10:31,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I mean they twenty sixteen they kind of were,

3479
03:10:32,440 --> 03:10:36,240
Speaker 2: but it was like a much rougher and ruder attempt.

3480
03:10:36,879 --> 03:10:41,920
Speaker 2: There's like so much more buy in by like large organizations.

3481
03:10:41,240 --> 03:10:46,440
Speaker 3: And Democrats have finally jumped on board to this. Yes, yes, absolutely.

3482
03:10:46,720 --> 03:10:49,560
Speaker 9: They have long rejected this line of attack as an

3483
03:10:49,600 --> 03:10:52,720
Speaker 9: illegitimate form of politics, and they are not taking that

3484
03:10:52,760 --> 03:10:53,480
Speaker 9: stance anymore.

3485
03:10:54,200 --> 03:10:57,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, they picked the gun up off the table, fucking finally.

3486
03:10:57,800 --> 03:11:00,959
Speaker 9: Well, that at least doesn't for me. Yeah here, it

3487
03:11:00,959 --> 03:11:04,320
Speaker 9: could happen here. I will leave us with one closing

3488
03:11:04,400 --> 03:11:05,680
Speaker 9: soundbit from JD.

3489
03:11:05,879 --> 03:11:09,840
Speaker 19: Vans something that Governor Walls has called you and Donald Trump,

3490
03:11:09,920 --> 03:11:12,400
Speaker 19: and that is weird, sure, and it is taken off

3491
03:11:12,520 --> 03:11:15,000
Speaker 19: the New York Times reports. Then when Donald Trump was

3492
03:11:15,040 --> 03:11:19,320
Speaker 19: asked about it, he said, not me. They're talking about JD.

3493
03:11:20,920 --> 03:11:21,200
Speaker 3: Well.

3494
03:11:21,240 --> 03:11:25,320
Speaker 17: Certainly they've levied that charge against me more than anybody else.

3495
03:11:26,280 --> 03:11:26,920
Speaker 3: Hey, we'll be.

3496
03:11:26,879 --> 03:11:30,240
Speaker 2: Back Monday with more episodes every week from now until

3497
03:11:30,240 --> 03:11:31,400
Speaker 2: the heat death of the universe.

3498
03:11:32,160 --> 03:11:34,800
Speaker 20: It Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media.

3499
03:11:34,840 --> 03:11:37,920
Speaker 20: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

3500
03:11:37,959 --> 03:11:41,560
Speaker 20: Coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

3501
03:11:41,640 --> 03:11:43,679
Speaker 20: Apple Podcasts, or wherever.

3502
03:11:43,320 --> 03:11:44,680
Speaker 3: You listen to podcasts.

3503
03:11:44,920 --> 03:11:46,879
Speaker 20: You can now find sources for It Could Happen here,

3504
03:11:46,879 --> 03:11:49,879
Speaker 20: listed directly in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.