1 00:00:03,440 --> 00:00:06,400 Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff Mom Never told you. From House top 2 00:00:06,440 --> 00:00:14,320 Speaker 1: works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm 3 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:19,960 Speaker 1: Kristen and I'm Caroline and Caroline. Today's topic is one 4 00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:23,919 Speaker 1: of those that I did not expect to find as 5 00:00:24,040 --> 00:00:32,960 Speaker 1: much research and in depth investigations on something as simplistic, 6 00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:37,160 Speaker 1: at least seemingly simplistic as cuddling. I know, well, I 7 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:40,479 Speaker 1: was not surprised. I totally expected that there would be 8 00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:46,200 Speaker 1: plenty of first person accounts or anecdotal stories or even 9 00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:50,279 Speaker 1: think pieces and analysis about who cuddles and why. I 10 00:00:50,360 --> 00:00:54,440 Speaker 1: didn't expect. Similarly, I did not expect the actual amount 11 00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:59,920 Speaker 1: of academic research that's out there. But once I started 12 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:03,640 Speaker 1: reading about cuddling and thought about all of the different 13 00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:08,040 Speaker 1: variations of cuddling, which I gotta say side note, cuddling 14 00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:12,640 Speaker 1: is like one of those like moist works for me? Yeah, 15 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:16,880 Speaker 1: could why? But why is that because you're cuddling a verse? 16 00:01:18,440 --> 00:01:21,040 Speaker 1: I'm a verse too, Referring to the act of cuddling 17 00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:24,720 Speaker 1: is cutdling? Does it signify? I think, as my therapist 18 00:01:24,720 --> 00:01:26,480 Speaker 1: would say, Christen, I'm sensing that there's a lot of 19 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:29,800 Speaker 1: emotion around this. No, I think I just prefer spooning. 20 00:01:30,319 --> 00:01:32,759 Speaker 1: I think I just felt like the sound of cuddling. 21 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:37,680 Speaker 1: You know, it's similar to how a square is a rahombus, 22 00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:40,959 Speaker 1: but a rambus is not a square. You know, Spooning 23 00:01:41,080 --> 00:01:44,360 Speaker 1: can be cuddling, but cuddling doesn't necessarily equate to spoon 24 00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:47,360 Speaker 1: and spooning doesn't sound quite as much like the word curdling. 25 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:51,560 Speaker 1: So I think that's I think that's what's going on 26 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:55,520 Speaker 1: in my brain. You're also right there, yes, because when 27 00:01:55,560 --> 00:01:58,160 Speaker 1: I think of cuddling, I automatically think of like cottage 28 00:01:58,240 --> 00:02:02,800 Speaker 1: cheese cuddling. I think of care bears. I don't know why. 29 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:05,840 Speaker 1: I literally like, I've never had what I just said 30 00:02:05,880 --> 00:02:08,079 Speaker 1: to you out loud. I've never had that concrete thought, 31 00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:10,680 Speaker 1: but I was like cuddling, Yeah, I just I think 32 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:14,320 Speaker 1: of the care bears on their little clouds. That's what 33 00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:17,360 Speaker 1: I think of. We are really unpacking some deep stuff 34 00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:21,480 Speaker 1: already in this Why am I paying for therapy cottage cheese, 35 00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:27,200 Speaker 1: care bears? This is incredible? Um, But thinking though about 36 00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:32,680 Speaker 1: all these variations of cuddling, snugging, snugging, snugg e ng 37 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:35,359 Speaker 1: when you put on a snuggie then you cuddle someone, 38 00:02:35,480 --> 00:02:39,480 Speaker 1: or snuggling as most people call it um. Then there's spooning, 39 00:02:39,560 --> 00:02:43,280 Speaker 1: all these you know, this kind of intimate close contact 40 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:47,359 Speaker 1: that might seem like frivolous behavior to explore, but there 41 00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:51,400 Speaker 1: really is a lot of gendered hang ups with it. 42 00:02:51,480 --> 00:02:55,800 Speaker 1: There's a lot of evolutionary theory behind cuddling um. There 43 00:02:55,840 --> 00:03:00,880 Speaker 1: are lots of social rules around cuddling and new developments 44 00:03:01,160 --> 00:03:05,280 Speaker 1: in the world of cuddling today. Can't wait, Yeah, I 45 00:03:05,320 --> 00:03:07,400 Speaker 1: can't wait to get into the there there's a lot. 46 00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:11,320 Speaker 1: I mean, whether you listeners, whether you are pro cuddling 47 00:03:11,520 --> 00:03:14,320 Speaker 1: or anti cuddling, there's something in here for everyone. What 48 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:16,760 Speaker 1: a divide, I know, I hope this is not too 49 00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:20,720 Speaker 1: controversial for people. Well, it's it's related to the are 50 00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:24,040 Speaker 1: you a hugger or not question? Because some people not 51 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:27,160 Speaker 1: so much huggers, other people all about the hug, always 52 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:30,160 Speaker 1: going to go straight in for the hug. Sure, And 53 00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:33,320 Speaker 1: I do find that that relates to the larger personality. 54 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:37,440 Speaker 1: I mean, if I don't consider myself a hugger, but 55 00:03:37,480 --> 00:03:40,040 Speaker 1: there are people that I enjoy hugging, saying with cuddling. 56 00:03:40,240 --> 00:03:42,360 Speaker 1: I never really considered myself much of a cuddler, and 57 00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:46,360 Speaker 1: still until I started dating boyfriend dog. Yeah. I consider 58 00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:50,880 Speaker 1: myself a hearty handshaker. We'll see. I'm anxious all the 59 00:03:50,880 --> 00:03:53,920 Speaker 1: time and my palms get sweaty. I hate handshaking. Yeah, 60 00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:56,080 Speaker 1: I mean, I don't mind a good hug every now 61 00:03:56,080 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 1: and then. Um, but you mentioned your boyfriend dog when 62 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:04,320 Speaker 1: I asked my fiancee about cuddling, because of course I 63 00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:08,440 Speaker 1: needed to get the guy's perspective on the topic, because 64 00:04:08,480 --> 00:04:11,680 Speaker 1: there's a whole stereotyping of men don't like to cuddle, 65 00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 1: cuddle something. Cuddling is something that only only chicks like 66 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:17,359 Speaker 1: to do, and that in no way is an impression 67 00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:21,000 Speaker 1: of my fiance But I asked him whether he liked 68 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:26,919 Speaker 1: cuddling or not because we we sleep real close, and 69 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:31,880 Speaker 1: he said I was the first person he had ever 70 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:36,279 Speaker 1: been down to cuddle. Interesting, I know, And I was 71 00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 1: walking on air for like two days. But I hate it. No, 72 00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:43,160 Speaker 1: I love it. I love it. And the next day 73 00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:44,680 Speaker 1: I was in a really good mood and he was like, 74 00:04:44,800 --> 00:04:46,840 Speaker 1: this is because I told you about the cuddling thing, 75 00:04:46,880 --> 00:04:49,039 Speaker 1: isn't it. I was like, maybe a little bit. Yeah, 76 00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:50,839 Speaker 1: Well it's interesting to see, and I mean, well, we'll 77 00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:53,440 Speaker 1: definitely get into all that hard hitting cuddling research in 78 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:56,719 Speaker 1: a minute, but very hard hitting. But it is interesting 79 00:04:56,760 --> 00:04:59,560 Speaker 1: to think about it from a personal perspective and and 80 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:03,800 Speaker 1: pat relationships and current relationships about how, yeah, it does 81 00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:06,279 Speaker 1: seem to be related to your larger personality, for instance, 82 00:05:06,279 --> 00:05:09,120 Speaker 1: whether you're a hugger and in what circumstances, but also 83 00:05:09,200 --> 00:05:12,000 Speaker 1: your attachment style. There's all this research into whether you 84 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:17,080 Speaker 1: are UM an anxiously attached person or a securely attached 85 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:21,960 Speaker 1: person or avoidant attachment and whether that means you will 86 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:26,800 Speaker 1: cuddle or not. So in terms of the psychology of 87 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:31,839 Speaker 1: cuddling in these attachment styles, we can look at it 88 00:05:31,920 --> 00:05:35,400 Speaker 1: not just in romantic context but also like platonic and 89 00:05:35,440 --> 00:05:39,560 Speaker 1: familial context as well, because probably the very first cuddling 90 00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:43,600 Speaker 1: that we experience is when we're little babies, being being 91 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:47,279 Speaker 1: cuddled and snuggled all over the time. UM and there 92 00:05:47,279 --> 00:05:51,480 Speaker 1: has been a lot of research on childhood development and 93 00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:56,160 Speaker 1: cuddling and how it might influence attachment styles and also 94 00:05:56,839 --> 00:06:02,360 Speaker 1: um outcomes for kids and and and a piece on cuddling, 95 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:04,520 Speaker 1: a very end up piece on cuddling and Slate written 96 00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:09,520 Speaker 1: by David Merritt John's UM. He looks into the history 97 00:06:09,839 --> 00:06:14,400 Speaker 1: of our cultural attitudes towards that parent child cuddling. Yeah, 98 00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:18,479 Speaker 1: and so in the early twentieth century, uh, cuddling was 99 00:06:18,520 --> 00:06:22,560 Speaker 1: thought to be a negative in in the family context. 100 00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:25,880 Speaker 1: You you might be making your children too soft or 101 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:29,120 Speaker 1: too dependent on you. Um, which of course made me, 102 00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:31,400 Speaker 1: I say, of course, like you guys know what the 103 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:33,640 Speaker 1: heck I'm talking about. But it made me think of 104 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:37,080 Speaker 1: my grandmother. Of course, my grandmother. Of course it made 105 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:40,039 Speaker 1: me think of her too. I know. Well, my dad's 106 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:43,360 Speaker 1: mom was a very cold woman. And so according to 107 00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:46,080 Speaker 1: family legend, I say that like nobody my family ever 108 00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:50,240 Speaker 1: met her was her mother. And it was said that 109 00:06:50,320 --> 00:06:55,080 Speaker 1: my great grandmother never hugged were cuddled up to my 110 00:06:55,200 --> 00:06:58,640 Speaker 1: grandmother because she herself had had sort of a traumatic upbringing. 111 00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:01,599 Speaker 1: Her mother died at a very young age. Her stepmother 112 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:05,720 Speaker 1: like basically didn't like her. Um. So it is like 113 00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:12,080 Speaker 1: interesting to see that sort of cultural sadness and unfortunateness 114 00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:16,560 Speaker 1: passed down. Luckily, my dad was snugly with me so well, 115 00:07:16,600 --> 00:07:19,440 Speaker 1: and a lot of moms back in the day were 116 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:23,920 Speaker 1: advised not to cuddle, especially during the progressive era around 117 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:25,880 Speaker 1: the turn of the century, you have the rise of 118 00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:31,560 Speaker 1: what's called scientific Mothering and uh David Merritt John's sites. 119 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:34,920 Speaker 1: This landmark text The Care and Feeding of Children by 120 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:39,720 Speaker 1: pediatrician named Luther Emmett Holt, and it was super popular, 121 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:43,080 Speaker 1: to the point that the US Labor Department actually recruited 122 00:07:43,160 --> 00:07:46,200 Speaker 1: doctor Holt to write a mass produced pamphlet on proper 123 00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:49,680 Speaker 1: child rearing, which was a pamphlet ess a pamphlet back 124 00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:52,200 Speaker 1: in the days when pamphlets were were cool. Well that's 125 00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:54,960 Speaker 1: all there is to parenting. It's like a pamphlet worth Yeah, really, 126 00:07:54,960 --> 00:07:58,400 Speaker 1: that's all you need. Um. So it was unfortunate though, 127 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:02,600 Speaker 1: that Holt was tasked to right in these pamphlets because 128 00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:06,080 Speaker 1: he was decidedly anti cuddling, and it was kind of 129 00:08:06,120 --> 00:08:10,520 Speaker 1: the um conflating cuddling with coddling um. And and this 130 00:08:10,640 --> 00:08:15,200 Speaker 1: even extended to rocking a baby, Wholet wrote by no 131 00:08:15,280 --> 00:08:18,520 Speaker 1: means should you do that. It's a habit easily acquired 132 00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:24,200 Speaker 1: in a very useless and sometimes injurious one. Yeah, my 133 00:08:24,280 --> 00:08:28,440 Speaker 1: parents rocked me for a long time. So I got 134 00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:30,840 Speaker 1: home on the weekend and I just we hopped in 135 00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:33,720 Speaker 1: that rocker and I just I just rock off to sleep. 136 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:37,080 Speaker 1: That sounds like a real healthy attachment there, Caroline, not 137 00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:41,160 Speaker 1: not too close nothing, nothing is weird about that. Um. 138 00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:45,240 Speaker 1: And then in parenting takes a psychological turn with the 139 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:49,960 Speaker 1: publishing of Dr John Watson's Behavior is a manual psychological 140 00:08:50,040 --> 00:08:53,560 Speaker 1: care of infant and child. And I mean he sounds 141 00:08:53,679 --> 00:08:57,200 Speaker 1: like a great, great guy that you'd really want to 142 00:08:57,240 --> 00:09:00,319 Speaker 1: invite over to your child's birthday party. He wrote, treat 143 00:09:00,400 --> 00:09:03,280 Speaker 1: them your children as though they were young adults. Never 144 00:09:03,360 --> 00:09:05,560 Speaker 1: hug and kiss them, never let them sit in your lap. 145 00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:09,040 Speaker 1: If you must, kiss them once on the forehead when 146 00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:13,480 Speaker 1: they say good night, shake hands with them in the morning. 147 00:09:14,040 --> 00:09:18,240 Speaker 1: SEVERI half a very business appropriate relationship with your children. 148 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:21,080 Speaker 1: Since I don't have any kids and only have a 149 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:25,000 Speaker 1: very old Labrador retriever, I'm just imagining doing doing them 150 00:09:25,040 --> 00:09:27,160 Speaker 1: that to Buddy, just kiss him on the forehead and 151 00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:29,200 Speaker 1: shaking a little Paul before late in the morning. Does 152 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:33,000 Speaker 1: he shake? Yeah you can shake. Yeah you can't, Caroline, 153 00:09:33,640 --> 00:09:36,600 Speaker 1: smart dog. You're a good dog. Mom. But then it's 154 00:09:36,600 --> 00:09:39,240 Speaker 1: in the World War two era when it seems like 155 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:43,480 Speaker 1: cuddling starts to take on more gendered meanings in terms 156 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:46,920 Speaker 1: of the stereotype that is alive and well today, of 157 00:09:47,080 --> 00:09:50,120 Speaker 1: assuming that guys aren't into cuddling, and that cuddling is 158 00:09:50,160 --> 00:09:53,360 Speaker 1: not a manly, masculine thing to do. Because, as we 159 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:57,600 Speaker 1: talked about in our Mama's Boys podcast a while back, 160 00:09:57,720 --> 00:10:02,040 Speaker 1: this was the era of mom is um and along 161 00:10:02,160 --> 00:10:05,840 Speaker 1: with the popular psychologists of the day, there was this 162 00:10:05,960 --> 00:10:12,960 Speaker 1: idea that overmothering was ruining the nation's young men and 163 00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:15,960 Speaker 1: softening them and making them, you know, too attached to 164 00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:17,880 Speaker 1: their moms and the whole. I mean that extends to 165 00:10:18,640 --> 00:10:21,560 Speaker 1: representations on screen. You can see it in Psycho and 166 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:25,440 Speaker 1: Norman Bates um so. And that's also there are lots 167 00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:29,320 Speaker 1: of undercurrents of homophobia, I think, because wasn't it in 168 00:10:29,760 --> 00:10:32,360 Speaker 1: like the nineteen twenties that we start to see the 169 00:10:32,520 --> 00:10:35,960 Speaker 1: rise of well, because it's in the wake of psychoanalysis 170 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:39,040 Speaker 1: coming around all these fears of people who don't leave 171 00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:42,640 Speaker 1: their same sex tendencies behind. You know, Freud wrote about, oh, well, 172 00:10:42,840 --> 00:10:45,480 Speaker 1: everyone has an attraction to members of the same sex, 173 00:10:45,520 --> 00:10:47,760 Speaker 1: but then you leave it behind or lt you become 174 00:10:47,800 --> 00:10:51,480 Speaker 1: anal retentive. So it seems like this is also rising 175 00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:56,439 Speaker 1: with alongside fears of homosexuality. Yeah, and I would assume 176 00:10:56,559 --> 00:11:00,760 Speaker 1: that all of that embedded itself into our cultural views 177 00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:04,599 Speaker 1: of cuddling as well. Yeah. Well, in the nineteen fifties 178 00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:07,320 Speaker 1: we start to get more of a clue that maternal 179 00:11:07,480 --> 00:11:12,360 Speaker 1: nurture and presumably in with this cuddling is important because 180 00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:17,439 Speaker 1: we get psychologist Harry Harlow's famous baby monkey experiments at 181 00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:19,880 Speaker 1: the University of Wisconsin. And for those of you who 182 00:11:19,960 --> 00:11:22,120 Speaker 1: might not have taken like a psychology one oh one 183 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:25,480 Speaker 1: class and read about this study, it is so heartbreaking. 184 00:11:25,720 --> 00:11:29,239 Speaker 1: Tell us about it, Caroline Well monkey babies. Um. So, basically, 185 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:34,520 Speaker 1: he was seeking to find out the whole nature versus 186 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:40,120 Speaker 1: nurture argument and whether adoption children who were adopted could 187 00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:44,000 Speaker 1: be happy, healthy, and successful just like children who were 188 00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:48,960 Speaker 1: biologically born to their families. Um. And so he takes 189 00:11:49,080 --> 00:11:52,920 Speaker 1: these infant monkeys away from their mothers and puts them 190 00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:58,080 Speaker 1: either with like a wire structure of a monkey kind 191 00:11:58,080 --> 00:12:03,200 Speaker 1: of the dispens of milk, or a milk less wire 192 00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:07,199 Speaker 1: structure that's covered with soft haterry cloth. And he found 193 00:12:07,280 --> 00:12:09,840 Speaker 1: that despite the fact that neither one was an actual 194 00:12:09,920 --> 00:12:13,640 Speaker 1: monkey or a mother, um, the monkeys who grew up 195 00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:17,559 Speaker 1: being able to cling, to cuddle with and rub on 196 00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:24,160 Speaker 1: the terry cloth monkey pseudo monkey developed more normally. Those 197 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:26,680 Speaker 1: who were able to comfort themselves by going and kind 198 00:12:26,679 --> 00:12:30,000 Speaker 1: of cuddling with this terry cloth structure ended up being 199 00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:33,160 Speaker 1: a little more normally developed than the monkeys who grew 200 00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:35,560 Speaker 1: up with the wire structure, because they found that when 201 00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:38,640 Speaker 1: they did test later and either scared the monkeys or 202 00:12:38,679 --> 00:12:40,679 Speaker 1: stressed them out, the ones who grew up with the 203 00:12:40,760 --> 00:12:43,640 Speaker 1: terry cloth mother reacted in a more healthy way. They 204 00:12:43,679 --> 00:12:45,840 Speaker 1: might run to the terry cloth structure and kind of 205 00:12:45,840 --> 00:12:48,760 Speaker 1: cling to it and then be okay. They've helped adjust 206 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:52,080 Speaker 1: themselves to the fear of the stress, whereas the ones 207 00:12:52,160 --> 00:12:55,960 Speaker 1: that grew up with the wire structure threw themselves down 208 00:12:55,960 --> 00:12:58,520 Speaker 1: on the floor, screamed, got in the fetal position, rocked 209 00:12:58,520 --> 00:13:01,920 Speaker 1: back and forth. And they said that it resembled the 210 00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:05,400 Speaker 1: way that children who are completely neglected or deprived from 211 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:07,959 Speaker 1: a young age react to stress and fear. And it's 212 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:10,120 Speaker 1: also similar to what they saw among a lot of 213 00:13:10,160 --> 00:13:14,120 Speaker 1: adults who had been locked away in um mental institutions 214 00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:16,880 Speaker 1: for years well. And they found too that if given 215 00:13:16,880 --> 00:13:21,400 Speaker 1: the choice, the monkeys would forego getting fed from the 216 00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:26,320 Speaker 1: wire hanger the dispensed milk and instead go get comfort 217 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:28,600 Speaker 1: in contact from the terry cloth. Yeah, and he found 218 00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:31,719 Speaker 1: by following these monkeys for a while, following them down 219 00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:33,839 Speaker 1: the street, I don't know, by like curious George and 220 00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:37,679 Speaker 1: his friends. Right, by continuing to observe the monkeys, he 221 00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:43,679 Speaker 1: realized that no amount of later life cuddling affection whatever 222 00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:47,720 Speaker 1: could right the path of the monkeys who had grown 223 00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:52,559 Speaker 1: up with the wire structure. Well, and that need for 224 00:13:52,679 --> 00:13:56,520 Speaker 1: in eight need for cuddling in you know, the primate 225 00:13:56,559 --> 00:13:59,640 Speaker 1: species will come in later in the episode when we 226 00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:03,720 Speaker 1: talk about the science and evolutionary theories behind why we 227 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:07,240 Speaker 1: do this kind of bizarre behavior of rubbing up on 228 00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:10,720 Speaker 1: each other. Oh, you're a joy to go to a 229 00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:13,520 Speaker 1: bar with, I guess, oh yes, oh yes. But if 230 00:14:13,559 --> 00:14:18,400 Speaker 1: we if we move from parent child cuddling, that familial cuddling, 231 00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:24,640 Speaker 1: to platonic, friendly, same sex cuddling and look at the 232 00:14:24,680 --> 00:14:28,480 Speaker 1: culture around that in our assumptions, we see that it 233 00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:32,160 Speaker 1: gets very gendered very fast too, because it used to 234 00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:37,359 Speaker 1: be more common when boys and girls were largely socialized separately. 235 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:40,320 Speaker 1: This would have been kind of pre twentieth century. Boys 236 00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:42,680 Speaker 1: and girls kind of grew up in their own spheres, 237 00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:48,280 Speaker 1: and so friendships between boys and girls were what I 238 00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:50,280 Speaker 1: should say, like between boys and boys and girls and 239 00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:53,480 Speaker 1: girls would be very intimate. I mean to the point 240 00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:56,160 Speaker 1: of a lot of you know, physical contact and intimacy 241 00:14:56,280 --> 00:14:59,080 Speaker 1: that we think of today in terms of girl friendships, 242 00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:01,960 Speaker 1: but not so much with boys. Yeah, I mean, into 243 00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:05,920 Speaker 1: the early twentieth century, emotionally and physically expressive friendships between 244 00:15:05,920 --> 00:15:08,600 Speaker 1: men were super common, and guys would even share beds, 245 00:15:08,640 --> 00:15:11,360 Speaker 1: like the the story that jumps to mind is, of course, 246 00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:15,400 Speaker 1: Abraham Lincoln and Joshua Speed sharing a bed. And there's 247 00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:18,440 Speaker 1: all of these people today who look at that out 248 00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:21,400 Speaker 1: of context and they're like, oh, Lincoln must have been gay. 249 00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:24,080 Speaker 1: He was like gay. Oh my god, we're so afraid 250 00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:26,000 Speaker 1: of him. And it's like, well, okay, hey, there's nothing 251 00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:28,480 Speaker 1: to be afraid of. But b you've got to look 252 00:15:28,520 --> 00:15:30,480 Speaker 1: at it in the context of the time when it 253 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:34,080 Speaker 1: was super common for men to share beds and then 254 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:36,880 Speaker 1: for men to share room. So there might be a 255 00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:39,480 Speaker 1: bunch of guys sharing a room if they're traveling. Yeah, 256 00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:43,600 Speaker 1: and John Ibsen actually published a whole book of photographic 257 00:15:43,640 --> 00:15:48,440 Speaker 1: evidence of these physically intimate friendships between men called Picturing 258 00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:53,680 Speaker 1: men Um, And it's incredible to see this comfortable intimacy 259 00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:58,600 Speaker 1: without that that fear of being perceived as gay. It's this, 260 00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:03,760 Speaker 1: you know, I mean, it's homophobia free expressions of of 261 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:06,400 Speaker 1: genuine love between dudes. And it's really sweet to seek 262 00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:09,360 Speaker 1: guys not just like with their arms around each other, um, 263 00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:13,320 Speaker 1: but really close, like legs entwined and having those formal 264 00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:16,920 Speaker 1: poses that you might see like family portraits, but two 265 00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:20,360 Speaker 1: men with like their arms resting on each other's thighs. 266 00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:24,160 Speaker 1: And it really, it doesn't seem sure. There was one 267 00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:26,080 Speaker 1: like Civil War air, a picture where a guy sitting 268 00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:28,600 Speaker 1: on his buddies lap posing for the camera, you know, 269 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:31,440 Speaker 1: like you do, like you there's only one chair. What 270 00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:36,520 Speaker 1: are you supposed to do? But signaling that homophobia may 271 00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:40,600 Speaker 1: at long last be waning, and my goodness, we certainly 272 00:16:40,640 --> 00:16:45,400 Speaker 1: hope it is a viral study among forty British male 273 00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:49,240 Speaker 1: student athletes found thirty seven of them reported cuddling with 274 00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:54,600 Speaker 1: their bros, even describing the super chill way that they 275 00:16:54,680 --> 00:16:58,520 Speaker 1: deal with accidental erections. Let's say that the Big Spoon, 276 00:16:58,640 --> 00:17:01,880 Speaker 1: you know, they're like bros hang out binging on Netflix 277 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:05,600 Speaker 1: on the couch, wants the Big Spoon and because of contact, 278 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:09,560 Speaker 1: you know, he gets an erection, and they told the 279 00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:13,560 Speaker 1: researchers that they usually deal with it one of two ways, 280 00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:16,800 Speaker 1: where the little spoon is like, hey, might you know 281 00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:20,119 Speaker 1: get rid of your direction, or then the other guys 282 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:22,920 Speaker 1: like I'm gonna go pop to the loop and then 283 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:30,240 Speaker 1: they just you know, take care of it. I mean, Caroline. 284 00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:36,360 Speaker 1: And it might sound and listeners, I know that might 285 00:17:36,359 --> 00:17:40,639 Speaker 1: sound far fetch, but I am legitimately recounting what is 286 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:44,679 Speaker 1: in this right qualitative study. It's a study, but and 287 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:46,680 Speaker 1: it's a study that went viral. The thing is about 288 00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:50,480 Speaker 1: the study a very small sample, a study sample, but 289 00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:57,000 Speaker 1: also judging by the coverage that it got and a 290 00:17:57,040 --> 00:18:00,879 Speaker 1: lot of leaping to lots of conclusions about how, oh, 291 00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:04,480 Speaker 1: college boys cuddle each other all of the time. Um 292 00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:07,920 Speaker 1: is I don't know, to me a sign that we 293 00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:10,240 Speaker 1: we maybe aren't so far away from cuddling if we're 294 00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:14,000 Speaker 1: so amazed at the fact that, you know, um, athletic 295 00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:17,560 Speaker 1: jock kind of dudes can touch each other and it's fine. 296 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:19,320 Speaker 1: I mean that we talked about this back in the 297 00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:22,359 Speaker 1: day in our Bromance episode, which I encourage you to 298 00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:25,960 Speaker 1: go listen to if this topic interest to you. Um, 299 00:18:26,040 --> 00:18:29,280 Speaker 1: because yeah, In that episode, which was a couple of 300 00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:33,280 Speaker 1: years ago, we talked about trend pieces looking at dudes, bros, 301 00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:36,960 Speaker 1: guys who were like, yeah, we cuddle, so what we're 302 00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:39,720 Speaker 1: just buds were friends and um for guys listening, I 303 00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:42,360 Speaker 1: don't want to imply that anytime you cuddle you automatically 304 00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:44,879 Speaker 1: get an erection. I'm just saying that was something that 305 00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:50,080 Speaker 1: was noted in that study. Right, sometimes it happens, Sometimes 306 00:18:50,080 --> 00:18:55,240 Speaker 1: it happened, wers whatever. But if we look at girlfriends 307 00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:59,840 Speaker 1: cuddling in this context of what are called romantic friendship, 308 00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:03,680 Speaker 1: they were and still are super common. I mean, as 309 00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:08,000 Speaker 1: I was reading about you know, girls cuddling their girl friends, 310 00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:11,840 Speaker 1: I immediately thought of Girls the show. I mean, there 311 00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:16,119 Speaker 1: are so many scenes of uh, Lena and her friends 312 00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:19,679 Speaker 1: being in bed together, taking baths together. It's very close 313 00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:23,560 Speaker 1: and physically intimate. Yeah, like all my two best girlfriends 314 00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:26,000 Speaker 1: in the world, if we're like on the couch or whatever, 315 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:28,240 Speaker 1: we'll totally like throw our legs over each other whatever 316 00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:31,080 Speaker 1: without a thought. Like, but then it's the same thing 317 00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:33,040 Speaker 1: as as what we talked about at the top of 318 00:19:33,040 --> 00:19:35,240 Speaker 1: the podcast, with like hugging or you know, who do 319 00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:37,040 Speaker 1: you cuddle with, or who do you want to cuddle with? 320 00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:41,040 Speaker 1: There is that degree of like super closeness for me 321 00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:44,600 Speaker 1: that proceeds like I'm gonna throw my legs over your lap. 322 00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:47,120 Speaker 1: I mean, you're just gonna deal with it. Listen, You're 323 00:19:47,119 --> 00:19:50,119 Speaker 1: gonna swaddle me and rock me like a baby. You 324 00:19:50,119 --> 00:19:57,080 Speaker 1: want to be my bff. Yeah, I have weird weekends. Um, 325 00:19:57,200 --> 00:20:00,359 Speaker 1: but this was really interesting to see in h early 326 00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:04,080 Speaker 1: twentieth century, as homophobia starts creeping in and it is 327 00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:08,120 Speaker 1: it's interesting to see for girls and and female friendships. 328 00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:12,320 Speaker 1: How in the same way that homophobia started creeping into 329 00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:15,720 Speaker 1: guy friendships, a lot of it being fueled by the 330 00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:20,840 Speaker 1: rise of psychoanalysis, there was concern about physical intimacy between 331 00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:29,200 Speaker 1: girl friendships as well. Um. As marriages for love became 332 00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:33,200 Speaker 1: the norm, especially once we get into the nineteen hundreds, 333 00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:38,120 Speaker 1: and along with the idea of your spouse being a friend. Um, 334 00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:42,720 Speaker 1: there were warnings to parents that they should make sure 335 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:46,880 Speaker 1: that their daughters aren't too physically friendly with their girlfriends 336 00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:50,200 Speaker 1: because that might lead to lesbianism because of our quote 337 00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:57,399 Speaker 1: unbridled libidos. Um. Yeah. William James uh was writing in 338 00:20:57,440 --> 00:21:04,160 Speaker 1: the eighteen seventies. I believe, And I was discussing how men, 339 00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:08,119 Speaker 1: you know, just have this natural aversion to wanting to 340 00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:11,840 Speaker 1: be attracted to their male peers. You know, it's inherent 341 00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:15,360 Speaker 1: in us, but it's disgusting, and so there's a natural 342 00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:18,399 Speaker 1: aversion to it, whereas you know, that natural aversion is 343 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:21,200 Speaker 1: not as strong or as common in women because we're 344 00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:25,119 Speaker 1: also pretty, you know, we are, so it's so soft, 345 00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:27,760 Speaker 1: it's no good. But I just I think it's so 346 00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:33,000 Speaker 1: funny when you come back through history and you look 347 00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:39,679 Speaker 1: at particularly men's view of like women's relationships with or 348 00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:43,280 Speaker 1: without sexuality involved, but like there there are so many 349 00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:46,680 Speaker 1: anxieties that prop up around this time. Well, I mean, 350 00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:53,320 Speaker 1: and definitely the rules for expressiveness in men's friendships have 351 00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:57,240 Speaker 1: been far more rigid in modern times because I mean, 352 00:21:57,320 --> 00:21:59,880 Speaker 1: even even though yes, there was that that panic over 353 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:04,600 Speaker 1: same sex attraction within girl friendships, still because of the 354 00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:12,080 Speaker 1: assumption that women are naturally more nurturing, um, cuddling and 355 00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:15,440 Speaker 1: those kinds of behaviors have still been accepted though, I mean, 356 00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:17,840 Speaker 1: you have you know, girls are probably likelier to have 357 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:21,439 Speaker 1: sleepovers where we brush each other's hair and oh my god, 358 00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:25,719 Speaker 1: being in elementary school in the library for reading time, 359 00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:28,680 Speaker 1: and like having your best girlfriend just braid your hair, 360 00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:32,520 Speaker 1: or you give each other massages, give each other's nails. 361 00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:34,800 Speaker 1: I wish someone would come braid my hair now, it's 362 00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:37,520 Speaker 1: like the most soothing. Maybe that's a cure for insomnia. 363 00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:39,880 Speaker 1: That's probably weird. I don't think my boyfriend would braid 364 00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:44,119 Speaker 1: my hair. Have you asked? I haven't? You know? You 365 00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:47,119 Speaker 1: never know, not a topic I've broached. Well, speaking of 366 00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:50,119 Speaker 1: your boyfriend braiding your hair, Caroline, that's the perfect segue 367 00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:56,280 Speaker 1: to talking about opposite sex cuddling because it's always been 368 00:22:56,400 --> 00:23:00,600 Speaker 1: this fraud issue because of the sex factor and the 369 00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:03,600 Speaker 1: whole accidental for play factor. Yeah. So if you go 370 00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:06,960 Speaker 1: back to eighteenth century colonial America, which let me tell you, 371 00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:10,000 Speaker 1: was a laugh riot, which is real fun. Back then, 372 00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:15,800 Speaker 1: wintertime courtship might have involved this thing called bundling, which 373 00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:17,359 Speaker 1: to me, in my head, even though I know what 374 00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:19,800 Speaker 1: it is, I still just pictured two people in sleeping 375 00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:22,639 Speaker 1: bags bumping up against each other. It was kind of 376 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:27,239 Speaker 1: like that. I know. It was basically trial cuddling for 377 00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:32,160 Speaker 1: people who were likely on the marriage track. So it's wintertime, 378 00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:36,760 Speaker 1: it's cold, you don't have central heat and air. God, forbid, 379 00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:40,280 Speaker 1: and so the guy would sleep over at the girl's 380 00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:43,040 Speaker 1: house in the same bed. And of course this was 381 00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:45,680 Speaker 1: more about body heat than lust per se, although I'm 382 00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:50,200 Speaker 1: sure that there was a lust undercurrent londer current londer, 383 00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:54,040 Speaker 1: current londer current. Um. And this was supposed to help 384 00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:57,639 Speaker 1: see if they were compatible for marriage, but to prevent 385 00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:03,000 Speaker 1: the sex from happening, they might sleep in this bifurcated 386 00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:06,000 Speaker 1: bundling sack, which again like do they make these at 387 00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:09,040 Speaker 1: camping stores? Can I get these? Yeah? At Yield? Are 388 00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:13,600 Speaker 1: I had the bifurcated bundling sack? Um, I'm sure, Like 389 00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:16,200 Speaker 1: with this artisan thing going on, I'm sure, like Etsy, 390 00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:23,160 Speaker 1: somebody makes bifurcated bundling. Do you want to bring back bundling? Yeah, bundler, Yeah, 391 00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:25,600 Speaker 1: it's our new Uh, it's our tender app competitor, right 392 00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:27,960 Speaker 1: and and like those apps, there's no e er, it's 393 00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:32,159 Speaker 1: just are of course bundle. Um. So they would be 394 00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:35,880 Speaker 1: in the sack and or have a bundling board between them, 395 00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:37,639 Speaker 1: and I'm like, wait, why are you having a board 396 00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:40,160 Speaker 1: if this is about body heat? Well, I bet Caroline, 397 00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:46,359 Speaker 1: the loundertones combined with the body heat would permeate the 398 00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:50,399 Speaker 1: bundling board, which listeners, A bundling board is exactly what 399 00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:53,240 Speaker 1: it sounds like. It's just it's just a board that 400 00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:55,960 Speaker 1: they put down the middle of the bed. Yeah, and 401 00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:58,520 Speaker 1: so I mean, at least in this way, if those 402 00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:02,639 Speaker 1: undertones do or take you, the family would at least 403 00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:06,360 Speaker 1: know what man was responsible for impregnating their daughter. Yeah, 404 00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:08,480 Speaker 1: I mean, because it's funny. So this was happening in 405 00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:15,160 Speaker 1: the context of premarital pregnancy being on the rise. So 406 00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:18,439 Speaker 1: this was kind of a way for parents to be like, listen, 407 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:20,800 Speaker 1: I guess if it's going to happen, we need to 408 00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:23,960 Speaker 1: know who to marry a little susan off to, just 409 00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:27,439 Speaker 1: in case. The Puritans though, by the way, we're just 410 00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:31,840 Speaker 1: outraged by this whole bundling trend um. But as our 411 00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:35,600 Speaker 1: sexual mores have loosened up as we burned our bundling boards, 412 00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:40,840 Speaker 1: so to speak, much of our heteronormative romantic cuddling discourse 413 00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:46,400 Speaker 1: really revolves around two major assumptions, that men used cuddling 414 00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:50,199 Speaker 1: to initiate sex, and that women used cuddling to bond 415 00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:55,080 Speaker 1: after sex. Yeah, very divided these assumptions. Yeah, for us, 416 00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:59,320 Speaker 1: it's bonding, for them, it's just spreading their seed. Yeah, 417 00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:03,720 Speaker 1: and so we're gonna unravel the gendering of these cuttle 418 00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:06,480 Speaker 1: preferences when we come right back from a quick break. 419 00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:19,720 Speaker 1: So before we get into the cuddling battle of the 420 00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:24,960 Speaker 1: sexes in quotes, let's talk for a minute about why 421 00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:31,680 Speaker 1: this behavior permeates our closest relationships, because there is some 422 00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:35,280 Speaker 1: science to this. Yeah, I mean, basically, it promotes bonding. 423 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:39,280 Speaker 1: You get the release of oxytocin, which is that bonding hormone, 424 00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:43,840 Speaker 1: and it basically communicates social information, including touch, to our 425 00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:47,960 Speaker 1: brains reward system. It's like it's like candy, like eating 426 00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:51,639 Speaker 1: a delicious chocolate bar. It would be like when when 427 00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:56,360 Speaker 1: your boyfriend dog braids your hair, your oxytocin would are 428 00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:59,800 Speaker 1: we are we in our bundling sack, in your bundling sack. Yes, 429 00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:04,160 Speaker 1: your oxytose in your brain would gather up boyfriend dog 430 00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:08,439 Speaker 1: hair braiding, the sense of calm, and then deliver that 431 00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:11,119 Speaker 1: to your brain's reward system and you'd be like, oh, 432 00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:13,520 Speaker 1: I really like that, right, and so then your stress 433 00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:16,560 Speaker 1: levels plummet as basically anyone who's had a good old 434 00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:20,000 Speaker 1: cuddle can attest that good old cuddle, good old cuddle, 435 00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:23,280 Speaker 1: little cuddle, puddle, good solid cuddle. So if we look 436 00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:26,600 Speaker 1: back for a minute at that parent child cuddling, we 437 00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:31,320 Speaker 1: start to see this, these neurological benefits playing out from 438 00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:35,159 Speaker 1: the very beginnings of our lives, because our brains really 439 00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:40,040 Speaker 1: are wired to enjoy this. Uh. There was a study 440 00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:43,320 Speaker 1: published in two thousand nine in Nature Neuroscience, for instance, 441 00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:49,000 Speaker 1: that located receptors in our skin that transmit pleasant touch 442 00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:52,280 Speaker 1: sensations not limited to cuddling. But in a way, they're 443 00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:54,439 Speaker 1: kind of like our cuddle receptors, being like, oh, I like, 444 00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:57,280 Speaker 1: I like how this feels. This is nice, I feel safe. Yeah, 445 00:27:57,320 --> 00:27:59,960 Speaker 1: my boyfriend has strong cuddle receptors. But we'll get into 446 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:03,360 Speaker 1: that when we talk more about the gender division. But so, 447 00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:07,800 Speaker 1: speaking of people with strong cuddling receptors, there's this mom 448 00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:10,480 Speaker 1: from Amsterdam, and Kristen and I both posted this to 449 00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:12,879 Speaker 1: our social media because it was like kind of funny 450 00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:19,760 Speaker 1: but also horrifying. She knitted a full life size replica 451 00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:25,359 Speaker 1: of her son. She knitted a suit of her son 452 00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:28,439 Speaker 1: because she was like, he doesn't cuddle with me as 453 00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:30,679 Speaker 1: much anymore now that he's a teen or a tween 454 00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:33,240 Speaker 1: or whatever, and so you know, I wanted to hold 455 00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:36,920 Speaker 1: onto those cuddling days, so I knitted a suit of him. Yeah, 456 00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:40,000 Speaker 1: and it looks super creepy because he wears it like 457 00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:42,320 Speaker 1: it's hollow. It's not like she stuffed it with stuffing. 458 00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:45,120 Speaker 1: I mean, like her human son wears it. Okay, but 459 00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:48,000 Speaker 1: here's the thing, Um, I feel a little bad for 460 00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:50,640 Speaker 1: her because of course the story went viral and people 461 00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:54,960 Speaker 1: freaked out saying like, you're the creepiest mom on earth. Also, 462 00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:58,040 Speaker 1: how long did that take? But anyway, Uh, it was 463 00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:01,960 Speaker 1: a joke. She did it trying to be funny, but 464 00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:05,000 Speaker 1: of course some things were lost in translation and people 465 00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:11,760 Speaker 1: just saw cuddling son and that's kind of disturbing. Replica. Yeah, 466 00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:16,280 Speaker 1: bless her heart. It is a horrifying It's a horrifying creation. 467 00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:20,280 Speaker 1: And I totally dig the sense of humor though, But 468 00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:23,080 Speaker 1: if you really just literally do see the picture and 469 00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:26,000 Speaker 1: the quote about like I miss cuddling my son, because 470 00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:28,400 Speaker 1: I know when I posted it to our tumbler, people 471 00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:32,160 Speaker 1: were like, oh my god, this woman needs help. Yeah yeah, 472 00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:36,240 Speaker 1: but there is some science to do back up that desire, 473 00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:38,520 Speaker 1: her desire to cuddle her song, because I think that 474 00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:41,800 Speaker 1: is legit because when we did post it to the 475 00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:44,959 Speaker 1: Stuff I've Never Told You Facebook page. A few moms 476 00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:48,959 Speaker 1: commented saying, I know exactly what she's talking about, because 477 00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:51,959 Speaker 1: it's in our d n A. A two thousand six 478 00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:58,840 Speaker 1: study found quote a maternal predisposition toward touch significantly predicted 479 00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:03,840 Speaker 1: babies to receptivity, and another study found twins tend to 480 00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:08,680 Speaker 1: have comparable cuddle levels. So, I mean, it seems like 481 00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:11,080 Speaker 1: if you, if you are like this lady and you 482 00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:13,840 Speaker 1: really like to, you know, cuddle, and that's one of 483 00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:17,760 Speaker 1: your love languages, you might say, yeah, one of the 484 00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:21,640 Speaker 1: ways that you bond, then um, then yeah, maybe you 485 00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:26,360 Speaker 1: maybe you do knit a life size replica of your child. Sure, yeah, 486 00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:28,160 Speaker 1: if you're into that. I bet she's a hugger too. 487 00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:31,040 Speaker 1: But I thought it was interesting. In that Slate piece 488 00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:34,840 Speaker 1: when David Merritt John's was talking about the sex difference 489 00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:39,400 Speaker 1: between male and female babies cuddle receptivity, he says that 490 00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:42,880 Speaker 1: it's basically when he was speaking with temperament experts, but 491 00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:45,840 Speaker 1: he said it was basically the same no matter the 492 00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:49,880 Speaker 1: sex of the child. It's just that some babies, male 493 00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:54,320 Speaker 1: or female, aren't as down for super cuddling as others. 494 00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:57,840 Speaker 1: Some are total snuggle babies and others are like, well, 495 00:30:57,840 --> 00:30:59,680 Speaker 1: I'm gonna go stiff as the board, please put me down. 496 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:02,840 Speaker 1: It's about fifteen or kind of like cats, you know, 497 00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:05,760 Speaker 1: trying to cuddle a cat and it's like, get me 498 00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:08,240 Speaker 1: out of here. Um and oh man, I love trying 499 00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:11,640 Speaker 1: to cuddle a cat because it's just sun shot somewhere down. 500 00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:13,640 Speaker 1: Before we came into the studio, I was just talking 501 00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:17,120 Speaker 1: to Hollway from History stuff about kitties and she was like, 502 00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:18,680 Speaker 1: because I told her how much I wanted a dog, 503 00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:20,200 Speaker 1: and she was like, well, you know, you should get 504 00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:21,520 Speaker 1: a cat. And I was like, well, if I could 505 00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:23,960 Speaker 1: guarantee that it would be a cuddly dog like cat, 506 00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:26,880 Speaker 1: I would totally get one. But you never know. Well, listeners, 507 00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:29,600 Speaker 1: if you know of any good dog like cats Caroline 508 00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:32,360 Speaker 1: could cuddle, let us know and please send pictures. Yeah, 509 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:34,520 Speaker 1: I'll rent it, Like I mean, I can't have a 510 00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:36,680 Speaker 1: pet right now, but like, I'll absolutely rent it from 511 00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:40,720 Speaker 1: you rent a kitty. Um. So if we look though 512 00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:43,800 Speaker 1: at friendly cuddling, that same sex platonic cuddling that we 513 00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:47,880 Speaker 1: talked about a little while ago, scientists think that it 514 00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:52,720 Speaker 1: might be our primate version of grooming each other. So Caroline, 515 00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:54,400 Speaker 1: I'm not going to come up to you and like 516 00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:58,520 Speaker 1: dig through your hair and look for fleas or or 517 00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:01,680 Speaker 1: bugs or things like that. Than you're welcome as much 518 00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:06,480 Speaker 1: as I want to. Um, But they think that, you know, 519 00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:09,400 Speaker 1: our cuddling behavior is related to that. I mean, think 520 00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:13,240 Speaker 1: of how you know girlfriends will hold hands, will link arms. 521 00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:15,240 Speaker 1: We I mean I might brush your hair and then 522 00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:17,240 Speaker 1: and then secretly try to see if you have any 523 00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:19,440 Speaker 1: any face in your hair, so that you know to 524 00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:22,400 Speaker 1: bolt if you see one. Well, didn't. These researchers also 525 00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:26,600 Speaker 1: say that they thought that not only was the primate 526 00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:30,640 Speaker 1: you know, tick searching or flee searching and grooming a 527 00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:34,280 Speaker 1: precursor to our cuddling, but that it was also a 528 00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:38,000 Speaker 1: precursor to like gossip circles. It's a way to spend 529 00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:41,280 Speaker 1: time with people you love and care about in like 530 00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:44,400 Speaker 1: an intimate way. Um, and then you know, once we 531 00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:48,080 Speaker 1: actually gain the ability to talk and say human words, Uh, 532 00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:50,840 Speaker 1: then we're just talking smack about the cave women next 533 00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:53,560 Speaker 1: to us. I think about this too whenever, Um, I 534 00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:57,320 Speaker 1: groom my dog. Now, you guys tell each other secret? Yes, 535 00:32:57,480 --> 00:33:00,640 Speaker 1: he tells me all the secrets and I brush out 536 00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:03,520 Speaker 1: his old fur. You know, good way to spend time 537 00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:06,040 Speaker 1: together and gossip about the other dogs that your your 538 00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:09,880 Speaker 1: apartment complex is always talking smack about my fiance. Let 539 00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:12,920 Speaker 1: me just tell you home man. But when it comes 540 00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:18,480 Speaker 1: to romantic cuddling, the cuddling, that's that's the most controversial, 541 00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:24,840 Speaker 1: the most fraught with stereotypes. Evolutionary theory explains post quital 542 00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:30,000 Speaker 1: cuddling motivated by women wanting to make sure that the 543 00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:33,120 Speaker 1: dude who might have just impregnated her is going to 544 00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:36,920 Speaker 1: stick around and you gotta love some always had her 545 00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:42,240 Speaker 1: normative and predictable. Evolutionary theory because on the flip side, 546 00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:46,640 Speaker 1: they maintain that men might be more inclined to engage 547 00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:50,760 Speaker 1: in more hedonic activities like pleasure seeking activities like having 548 00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:55,360 Speaker 1: a smoke, eating or having sex again, rather than wanting 549 00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:58,440 Speaker 1: to cuddle, because guys are just about that, about that 550 00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:01,960 Speaker 1: pleasure center, all of at that base. Um. Which great, 551 00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:05,560 Speaker 1: that's gonna be in my head forever now. Um. But biologically, 552 00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:09,120 Speaker 1: researchers say cuddling off of boost sexual attraction because it's 553 00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:13,600 Speaker 1: linked to an increase in testosterone, which might also explain 554 00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:17,520 Speaker 1: how cuddling does double duty as both for play and 555 00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:21,680 Speaker 1: postcoital relaxing. And there was this study in the Archives 556 00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:25,279 Speaker 1: of Sexual Behavior that we looked at that discussed how 557 00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:29,879 Speaker 1: couples who partake in post sex cuddling felt more satisfied 558 00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:33,600 Speaker 1: with their sex lives but also their relationships in general. 559 00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:37,040 Speaker 1: And they found that it mattered. Cuddling mattered more than 560 00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:41,719 Speaker 1: the foreplay or the duration of the actual intercourse because 561 00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:46,560 Speaker 1: our brains look at it as a positive post sex reward, 562 00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:49,320 Speaker 1: and I can only imagine that no matter male or female, 563 00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:52,799 Speaker 1: if you do have this stronger like touch reward receptors, 564 00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:56,520 Speaker 1: that it's even better. But what's what I loved is 565 00:34:56,560 --> 00:35:00,319 Speaker 1: that they found that it's not just postcoital like feel 566 00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:03,000 Speaker 1: so rewarded, so fulfilled, I'm so happy with my partner, 567 00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:08,319 Speaker 1: but also the effect lasted for a long time, like months, Yeah, 568 00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:12,120 Speaker 1: I mean, and even isolated outside of sex, just cuddling 569 00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:14,680 Speaker 1: on its own, when you're laying on the couch and 570 00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:18,680 Speaker 1: bene watching Netflix. Yet again, it can be, you know, 571 00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:23,480 Speaker 1: a bonding activity for couples, not surprisingly, and there's research 572 00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:26,520 Speaker 1: to back it up. So I mean, it's just funny 573 00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:32,120 Speaker 1: in looking up research for this podcast, how the media 574 00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:38,759 Speaker 1: really love to make like sweeping generalizations about cuddling. Um 575 00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:42,840 Speaker 1: in terms of, oh, science finally proves that couples who 576 00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:45,360 Speaker 1: cuddle are better than everyone else, or science proves that 577 00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:49,000 Speaker 1: men love cuddling and women actually loath it. And we've 578 00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:52,799 Speaker 1: kind of concocted because of a lot of our sort 579 00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:59,080 Speaker 1: of misinterpretation of studies, um and and assumptions, Uh, that 580 00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:04,280 Speaker 1: there is this cuddling war going on in this battle 581 00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:09,840 Speaker 1: of the sexes, almost the most adorable war, the softest 582 00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:12,919 Speaker 1: care bears just hitting each other with pillows. Yeah, exactly, 583 00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:17,920 Speaker 1: because the assumption that most men don't like cuddling is 584 00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:22,279 Speaker 1: based far more on gender norms than hardwiring. All of 585 00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:26,200 Speaker 1: that neuroscience we've just been talking about. For instance, in 586 00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:31,560 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy six, scientists Mark Hollander at Vanderbilt studied gender 587 00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:35,880 Speaker 1: differences in cuddling. On the basis going into this study, 588 00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:39,880 Speaker 1: h Hollander assumed that quote, according to our prevailing viewpoint, 589 00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:43,720 Speaker 1: it's unmanly to want to be held or cuddled. Only 590 00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:48,839 Speaker 1: women are permitted or encouraged to express such feminine wishes. Yeah, 591 00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:52,359 Speaker 1: but when you look at statistics, which we so love 592 00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:55,799 Speaker 1: to do, there isn't really a huge difference. And how 593 00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:59,160 Speaker 1: much all dudes and all ladies like to cuddle, Yeah, 594 00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:02,920 Speaker 1: as much as a headline every other month will claim that, oh, yeah, 595 00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:05,000 Speaker 1: women really do love to cuddle. No, no, no no, wait, 596 00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:07,319 Speaker 1: it's actually guys who love to cuddle more than women. No, 597 00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:10,160 Speaker 1: it's it's kind of it's kind of breaks even, sort 598 00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:13,520 Speaker 1: of like the sex differences in babies, where it's like, 599 00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:16,160 Speaker 1: you know, we just have a subset where they're they're 600 00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:18,839 Speaker 1: just the cats, the cats of the world. They don't 601 00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:21,840 Speaker 1: want to be cuddled. Right. There was this twenty eleven 602 00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:25,200 Speaker 1: Kills the Institute study on older long term couples that 603 00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:31,840 Speaker 1: found a slightly stronger twelve versus nine relationship between cuddling 604 00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:36,239 Speaker 1: and kissing and relationship satisfaction among men. Of course, there's 605 00:37:36,239 --> 00:37:38,000 Speaker 1: all sorts of things you have to take into account, 606 00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:40,720 Speaker 1: including like who in this long term study has dropped 607 00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:43,680 Speaker 1: out due to divorce, Like maybe all you're left with 608 00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:46,759 Speaker 1: is the people who genuinely just love spending time to 609 00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:49,760 Speaker 1: get well and the chicken egg, two of which comes 610 00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:54,960 Speaker 1: first the relationship satisfaction or the cuddling and kissing behavior. 611 00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:58,960 Speaker 1: But the way that three percent edge was interpreted in 612 00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:02,600 Speaker 1: headlines across the internet was men love cuddling. They love 613 00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:04,880 Speaker 1: it way more than women, so much more than women. 614 00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:08,680 Speaker 1: And I feel like if you just ask humans about cuddling, 615 00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:11,560 Speaker 1: it's like what we've been saying the past couple of 616 00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:14,120 Speaker 1: minutes that it's literally like, yeah, you've got some people 617 00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:15,879 Speaker 1: who like it, and some people who don't, and some 618 00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:19,560 Speaker 1: people like me who really hated it and weren't really 619 00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:23,920 Speaker 1: down with it until they met their person. Yeah. Um, 620 00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:28,560 Speaker 1: but there is an interesting link to between cuddling and 621 00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:32,960 Speaker 1: attachment styles, so we talked about um earlier in the podcast. 622 00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:37,200 Speaker 1: A two thousand and fourteen study examining attachment style and 623 00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:42,120 Speaker 1: both cuddling among parent child relationships and romantic relationships did 624 00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:47,080 Speaker 1: find that women overall reported more positive feelings about cuddling, 625 00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:51,279 Speaker 1: but the researchers weren't entirely sure why. Well, here's the 626 00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:52,920 Speaker 1: thing I mean. So, as you mentioned at the top 627 00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:55,520 Speaker 1: of the podcast, you've got the spectrum of attachment styles, 628 00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:58,600 Speaker 1: everything from avoidant attachment, which is like, oh I love you, 629 00:38:58,640 --> 00:39:00,840 Speaker 1: but like I'm going to keep an arm out, uh, 630 00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:05,080 Speaker 1: to secure attachment, which is you're well adjusted, you like cuddling, 631 00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:06,680 Speaker 1: you're not going to spend twenty four hours a day 632 00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:09,640 Speaker 1: with your person, but you love them whatever, all the 633 00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:13,320 Speaker 1: way to the anxious attachment, which is fear of abandonment. 634 00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:16,080 Speaker 1: It's I've got to cuddle you because you might leave me, 635 00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:17,759 Speaker 1: Like I've got to cuddle you because it makes me 636 00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:21,640 Speaker 1: feel better. It's a self seething behavior. And as I 637 00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:24,960 Speaker 1: was reading this, I was like, oh, okay, Because although 638 00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:26,799 Speaker 1: my boyfriend and I are sort of each at the 639 00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:29,440 Speaker 1: middle of the spectrum in terms of attachment styles, I 640 00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:33,000 Speaker 1: would say that I am I don't I don't know, 641 00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:36,040 Speaker 1: left of center in terms of the avoidant attachment style, 642 00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:37,839 Speaker 1: and he's a little bit right of center in terms 643 00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:41,000 Speaker 1: of the anxious attachment style. Although we are obviously very 644 00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:42,640 Speaker 1: secure with each other and in love and all that 645 00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:46,120 Speaker 1: griss stuff. But I think that that sort of helps 646 00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:50,719 Speaker 1: encapsulate our individual relationship with cuddling, where I came into 647 00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:53,520 Speaker 1: being like, uh, and he just I mean that boy 648 00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:55,920 Speaker 1: wants to cuddle all the time. But a notable thing 649 00:39:56,000 --> 00:39:59,399 Speaker 1: about that study on attachment style and cuddling was that 650 00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:04,239 Speaker 1: of wutly attached people were not down to cuddle. They 651 00:40:04,239 --> 00:40:06,600 Speaker 1: found like there was a strong relationship between you know, 652 00:40:06,719 --> 00:40:10,640 Speaker 1: not being into it and being avoidantly attached, Whereas you 653 00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:13,440 Speaker 1: would assume that anxiously attached people would want to cuddle 654 00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:18,520 Speaker 1: all the time, but researchers um like, to their surprise, 655 00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:22,399 Speaker 1: did not find a relationship wasn't It was a much 656 00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:28,279 Speaker 1: weaker link between the anxiously attached style and cuddling. So 657 00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:30,279 Speaker 1: it could just be that my boyfriend just like likes 658 00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:32,080 Speaker 1: to cuddle. Just well, I mean, I wonder if that 659 00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:35,879 Speaker 1: speaks so to the universality of cuddling where I mean, 660 00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:39,439 Speaker 1: it is such a such a common behavior that it's 661 00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:42,279 Speaker 1: not really much of an outlier for someone to like 662 00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:46,080 Speaker 1: to to cuddle. Yeah. Sure, I mean I'm definitely a convert. 663 00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:50,520 Speaker 1: You know. Like my boyfriend had been um basically like 664 00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:53,040 Speaker 1: out of town for two weeks, and I went over 665 00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:54,440 Speaker 1: to his house last night and we just lay on 666 00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:57,040 Speaker 1: the couch just like silently just cuddled for a long time. 667 00:40:57,080 --> 00:40:59,640 Speaker 1: It was a way to reconnect. It's that it's that 668 00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:02,600 Speaker 1: sets in those good bonding chemicals. You gotta get that 669 00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:06,480 Speaker 1: oxytocin refilled sometimes. And you know what, I was the 670 00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:10,560 Speaker 1: big spoon. Yeah that's really sweet because your boyfriend is 671 00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:14,799 Speaker 1: super tall. I know, I just love cuddling up to that. 672 00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:20,720 Speaker 1: But but even in hookup context there isn't a huge 673 00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:24,399 Speaker 1: gender gap either. And I was thrilled to see this 674 00:41:24,719 --> 00:41:27,560 Speaker 1: studied because I feel like this is where the cuddling 675 00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:32,879 Speaker 1: stereotypes totally come out of UM anecdotally in conversations I've 676 00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:37,520 Speaker 1: had with my girlfriends about hookups. UM Binghamton Universities justin 677 00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:41,720 Speaker 1: Garcia UM did a survey and found that of dudes 678 00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:46,240 Speaker 1: and sixty one percent of women wanted to snuggle post 679 00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:49,040 Speaker 1: hook ups. So yeah, more women, but still a lot 680 00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:53,080 Speaker 1: of dudes. Meanwhile, in committed relationships, there was no difference 681 00:41:53,120 --> 00:41:58,400 Speaker 1: at all of all the people wanted to cuddle and 682 00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:02,799 Speaker 1: liked doing it. UM. So that said to me, like, 683 00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:06,640 Speaker 1: we are maybe making up some of these stereotypes. Obviously 684 00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:11,520 Speaker 1: there are some some differences, but they are narrower than 685 00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:16,600 Speaker 1: we probably assume or tend to read into. Well, it's 686 00:42:16,719 --> 00:42:19,520 Speaker 1: all of the crap about gender norms. It's almost like 687 00:42:19,560 --> 00:42:22,279 Speaker 1: we want to believe it. It's funny. It's like it's 688 00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:24,560 Speaker 1: funny to believe that a man who likes to cuddle 689 00:42:25,200 --> 00:42:29,920 Speaker 1: is feminine or weak or whatever, or like we're gonna 690 00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:33,719 Speaker 1: smother you, clingy. Yeah, all of that junk and that 691 00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:36,680 Speaker 1: you know a woman who doesn't like to cuddle, is 692 00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:39,279 Speaker 1: you know a tramp who's going to leave you. She's 693 00:42:39,320 --> 00:42:43,759 Speaker 1: so tough, tough, need to cuddle so independent. Um, in 694 00:42:43,960 --> 00:42:48,600 Speaker 1: straight long term couple of contexts, because ps, there is 695 00:42:48,719 --> 00:42:52,040 Speaker 1: zero research at least that we found on same sex snuggling, 696 00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:57,040 Speaker 1: so researchers up to it well same sex romantic relationships, 697 00:42:57,120 --> 00:43:04,120 Speaker 1: not same sex platonic friends specifically uh British college jocks. Um. 698 00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:09,000 Speaker 1: But in the straight long term couple contexts, cuddling is 699 00:43:09,080 --> 00:43:13,719 Speaker 1: mutually beneficial related to healthy, satisfied relationships, whether it's used 700 00:43:13,719 --> 00:43:15,840 Speaker 1: to initiate sex or not. And that's something Caroline, but 701 00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:18,920 Speaker 1: you talked about in that study where it's like whether 702 00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:21,560 Speaker 1: we're doing it before sex, after sex, are just on 703 00:43:21,560 --> 00:43:24,319 Speaker 1: a random evening when you haven't seen each other in 704 00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:27,000 Speaker 1: a long time. Culling can be good for you and 705 00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:30,440 Speaker 1: it makes a lot of sense because of the you know, 706 00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:33,680 Speaker 1: the physiological effects of it. Well, you mentioned that there's 707 00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:38,920 Speaker 1: little to no research among same sex romantic relationships uncuddling, 708 00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:41,880 Speaker 1: but this is also an area where we could use 709 00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:44,600 Speaker 1: more research for the a sexual community. You know, we've 710 00:43:44,680 --> 00:43:48,640 Speaker 1: we've got a lot of letters in recent months from 711 00:43:48,880 --> 00:43:52,400 Speaker 1: members of the a sexual and a romantic community who 712 00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:56,840 Speaker 1: you know, obviously want to hear themselves represented in media 713 00:43:56,880 --> 00:44:00,640 Speaker 1: and in research, and there's really nothing out there about 714 00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:03,239 Speaker 1: them either. Yeah, I mean, they have a lot of 715 00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:09,399 Speaker 1: kind of crowdsourced resources. And um, I looked in that 716 00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:14,279 Speaker 1: for thoughts on cuddling because there are people within you know, 717 00:44:14,320 --> 00:44:17,640 Speaker 1: the a sexuality spectrum who are totally down to snuggle 718 00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:21,239 Speaker 1: and really love snuggling and cuddling and spooning, but just 719 00:44:21,400 --> 00:44:25,800 Speaker 1: don't desire any sexual contact beyond that. And so there 720 00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:28,640 Speaker 1: are you know, lots of questions at that point of 721 00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:33,440 Speaker 1: for you know, for their partners, how do they you know, 722 00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:37,800 Speaker 1: make sure that that's not misleading in any kind of way, um, 723 00:44:38,200 --> 00:44:41,959 Speaker 1: and is it mutually satisfying? And so I would love 724 00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:46,799 Speaker 1: to hear from any a sexual or a romantic listeners 725 00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:51,840 Speaker 1: about the cuddling issue too. In a word about context 726 00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:54,680 Speaker 1: and you hinted it as Carolina a second ago when 727 00:44:54,680 --> 00:44:59,319 Speaker 1: you said that you are cuddling convert, because I mean, 728 00:44:59,360 --> 00:45:02,160 Speaker 1: I think how how much someone likes cuddling in the 729 00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:05,480 Speaker 1: moment when you ask them, like, do you enjoy cuddling? 730 00:45:06,239 --> 00:45:11,360 Speaker 1: Depends a lot on the circumstances around it. Are you tired, 731 00:45:11,640 --> 00:45:13,799 Speaker 1: is it super hot in the room. Are you not 732 00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:18,480 Speaker 1: really like into that person who's next to you? For 733 00:45:18,520 --> 00:45:22,120 Speaker 1: whatever reason? You know, sometimes you just want to sleep 734 00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:24,120 Speaker 1: on your stomach with a pillow over your head and 735 00:45:24,160 --> 00:45:28,200 Speaker 1: call it a day. Yes, I do. My name is Kristen. Yeah. No, 736 00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:32,799 Speaker 1: I Even within my relationship, there are obviously times that 737 00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:36,040 Speaker 1: I'm like, get away from me, especially when it's time 738 00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:39,400 Speaker 1: to sleep, Like I'm fine cuddling up before we go 739 00:45:39,520 --> 00:45:41,120 Speaker 1: to sleep, but when it's time for lights out, like, 740 00:45:41,160 --> 00:45:43,759 Speaker 1: get off me, don't touch me. Although of course it's 741 00:45:43,840 --> 00:45:47,479 Speaker 1: freezing in my boyfriend's house all the time. Sometimes we'll 742 00:45:47,480 --> 00:45:49,279 Speaker 1: do the thing and this is probably t m I, 743 00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:51,600 Speaker 1: but we'll like fall asleep kind of snuggled up because 744 00:45:51,600 --> 00:45:53,000 Speaker 1: we're freezing, and then wake up in the middle of 745 00:45:53,040 --> 00:45:59,400 Speaker 1: the night drench I know that feeling. Well, sorry for 746 00:45:59,480 --> 00:46:02,800 Speaker 1: grossing an one out, but I mean, if you don't 747 00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:07,960 Speaker 1: have a super cuddler like my boyfriend, which you better not, Uh, 748 00:46:08,000 --> 00:46:12,880 Speaker 1: there are other cuddling opportunities out there. Okay, Yes, this 749 00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:15,800 Speaker 1: brings us to the strangest wrinkle in this cuddle puddle 750 00:46:17,160 --> 00:46:23,439 Speaker 1: more people these days are cuddling with perfect strangers like Balki. Yes, 751 00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:27,960 Speaker 1: where people are cuddling Balkie. Um. And here's the thing. 752 00:46:28,040 --> 00:46:31,920 Speaker 1: While it scientifically makes sense that we crave pleasant touch 753 00:46:32,080 --> 00:46:36,280 Speaker 1: and its physiological effects, it does not make any socio 754 00:46:36,360 --> 00:46:40,560 Speaker 1: scientific sense to cuddle with a stranger because it kind 755 00:46:40,560 --> 00:46:47,000 Speaker 1: of violates so many norms. And uh is perplexing to 756 00:46:47,880 --> 00:46:51,839 Speaker 1: a lot of researchers because I mean, even even for me, 757 00:46:51,960 --> 00:46:55,600 Speaker 1: as someone who is um more of a non hugger 758 00:46:55,719 --> 00:46:58,840 Speaker 1: than a than a hugger, the idea of just meeting 759 00:46:58,880 --> 00:47:02,240 Speaker 1: someone in a park and laying down and then having 760 00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:06,239 Speaker 1: their you know, body odor and the hot breath so 761 00:47:06,360 --> 00:47:09,360 Speaker 1: close to me and not knowing them makes my skin 762 00:47:09,440 --> 00:47:12,239 Speaker 1: crawl because it just seems so it seems very unsafe 763 00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:16,759 Speaker 1: to me. Um. But there's an app for that. If 764 00:47:16,800 --> 00:47:18,080 Speaker 1: you are a cuddler and there are a lot of 765 00:47:18,120 --> 00:47:21,200 Speaker 1: colors out there, has someone already made bundler? No one's 766 00:47:21,200 --> 00:47:24,279 Speaker 1: made bundler. We can still make buddler, okay, okay, and 767 00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:30,920 Speaker 1: our bifurcated bundle bags trademarked Sminty of course. Yes. Um. 768 00:47:30,960 --> 00:47:34,640 Speaker 1: But there is an app formerly known as cuddler Uh, 769 00:47:34,680 --> 00:47:38,560 Speaker 1: it's called Spooner, and geo locates people around you who 770 00:47:38,560 --> 00:47:41,680 Speaker 1: are down for a cuddle. Yeah. This sounded like woe 771 00:47:41,800 --> 00:47:46,400 Speaker 1: danger zone to me because just you know, dating websites 772 00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:49,480 Speaker 1: can be sketched in general, or websites apps. I don't know, 773 00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:53,240 Speaker 1: I'm old. Hello, um anything in the outside world, things 774 00:47:53,360 --> 00:47:56,000 Speaker 1: that are outside of my comfort zone, I e. The 775 00:47:56,040 --> 00:48:01,400 Speaker 1: podcast studio Um. But Charlie will Hims, who's the founder 776 00:48:01,560 --> 00:48:04,360 Speaker 1: of Spooner, told Salon that I think is a culture 777 00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:07,000 Speaker 1: we're ready to consider. Cuddling is more than just something 778 00:48:07,040 --> 00:48:09,720 Speaker 1: that happens before after sex, but it's something worth pursuing 779 00:48:09,719 --> 00:48:13,120 Speaker 1: in its own right. Cuddling takes communication, respect for boundaries, 780 00:48:13,120 --> 00:48:16,040 Speaker 1: and self control, and he's telling them all about how like, no, 781 00:48:16,160 --> 00:48:18,799 Speaker 1: it's totally fine, it's totally safe. Like it helps you 782 00:48:18,960 --> 00:48:21,320 Speaker 1: and even in your personal life work on your communication 783 00:48:21,400 --> 00:48:24,520 Speaker 1: skills about what you want, what you don't want. And 784 00:48:24,800 --> 00:48:27,200 Speaker 1: this is not about sex. This is not meeting to 785 00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:29,800 Speaker 1: pick people up for sex. This is literally for cuddling. 786 00:48:29,920 --> 00:48:31,880 Speaker 1: And hey, if people like hit it off and one 787 00:48:31,880 --> 00:48:34,960 Speaker 1: a date after, like cool, that's fine. But I was 788 00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:38,440 Speaker 1: reading this like, there's no way that is so like 789 00:48:39,600 --> 00:48:42,360 Speaker 1: murder central in my brain and and I know a 790 00:48:42,440 --> 00:48:44,440 Speaker 1: lot of people out there are which just got really offended. 791 00:48:44,480 --> 00:48:47,600 Speaker 1: I'm I am sorry. That's just me personally being totally 792 00:48:47,640 --> 00:48:50,279 Speaker 1: afraid to cuddle with strangers. Yeah, yeah, you and I 793 00:48:50,320 --> 00:48:53,799 Speaker 1: have similar I think personal cuddle boundaries. Yeah, I mean 794 00:48:53,800 --> 00:48:57,040 Speaker 1: that sense. If I don't even like shaking hands and 795 00:48:57,640 --> 00:48:59,640 Speaker 1: you don't want a sweaty cuttle, I don't want to 796 00:48:59,680 --> 00:49:03,080 Speaker 1: go old body I have. When I was in high school, UM, 797 00:49:03,920 --> 00:49:05,920 Speaker 1: like a bunch of friends and I used to have 798 00:49:06,040 --> 00:49:08,200 Speaker 1: like we'd all be hanging out at night or whatever, 799 00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:11,200 Speaker 1: and we used to have, um, basically the congo line 800 00:49:11,239 --> 00:49:15,520 Speaker 1: equivalent of cuddling. There would be like fifteen or twenty 801 00:49:15,560 --> 00:49:18,640 Speaker 1: of us like lying down, just spooning. It was hysterical. 802 00:49:19,480 --> 00:49:25,160 Speaker 1: Maybe some alcohol was involved. It's a smelly cuddle, um 803 00:49:25,280 --> 00:49:27,080 Speaker 1: when I don't have her name in front of me. 804 00:49:27,160 --> 00:49:30,560 Speaker 1: But a writer over at Daily Dot tested out the 805 00:49:30,600 --> 00:49:33,719 Speaker 1: Spooner app, and one of her main complaints in terms 806 00:49:33,800 --> 00:49:39,360 Speaker 1: of safety was that you can't um select by gender. 807 00:49:39,480 --> 00:49:42,080 Speaker 1: So if you want a same sex cuddle because that 808 00:49:42,160 --> 00:49:46,400 Speaker 1: might make you feel safer, um, Spooner doesn't let you 809 00:49:46,520 --> 00:49:51,200 Speaker 1: do that. Because Williams thinks that you know it should 810 00:49:51,680 --> 00:49:55,239 Speaker 1: be because Williams thinks that it shouldn't be a sexual thing. 811 00:49:55,360 --> 00:49:59,279 Speaker 1: But in her experience, the people who are messaging her 812 00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:03,239 Speaker 1: were almost exclusively dudes who seem to want uh well, 813 00:50:04,120 --> 00:50:07,040 Speaker 1: who want a sexy times Hello. Have you been on 814 00:50:07,080 --> 00:50:10,400 Speaker 1: the internet? Yes, that is how those things are gonna work. Sorry, 815 00:50:10,480 --> 00:50:14,200 Speaker 1: Charlie Williams. And you're like utopian view of cuddling app 816 00:50:14,480 --> 00:50:18,160 Speaker 1: literally sorry Charlie. Yeah, yeah, I wonder though, if there 817 00:50:18,160 --> 00:50:21,920 Speaker 1: are any listeners who have tried spooner, please tell us 818 00:50:22,280 --> 00:50:24,759 Speaker 1: if it goes better then it seems like it might. 819 00:50:24,960 --> 00:50:27,640 Speaker 1: This is why the world needs Bundler, Kristen. We would 820 00:50:27,719 --> 00:50:30,319 Speaker 1: ensure that there was a gender selection, but would it 821 00:50:30,360 --> 00:50:33,080 Speaker 1: only be for proper courtship. I don't know. I haven't 822 00:50:33,080 --> 00:50:36,560 Speaker 1: thought that. We haven't we haven't developed our business plan yet. Um. 823 00:50:36,600 --> 00:50:39,400 Speaker 1: But if you want to cuddle in a safer context, 824 00:50:39,920 --> 00:50:43,160 Speaker 1: you can go to a cuddle party. Caudle parties exist 825 00:50:43,600 --> 00:50:46,160 Speaker 1: and they are organized by groups around the country, like 826 00:50:46,320 --> 00:50:51,239 Speaker 1: Minnesota's Nurture Yourself, Um, and you started in early two thousands, 827 00:50:51,280 --> 00:50:53,480 Speaker 1: and usually if you go to a cuddle party, it's 828 00:50:53,480 --> 00:50:55,400 Speaker 1: exactly what it sounds like. It's kind of like Carolines 829 00:50:55,480 --> 00:50:58,440 Speaker 1: high school experience, minus the booze. You're not allowed to 830 00:50:58,440 --> 00:51:01,640 Speaker 1: go drunk, um, but you wear pj's. A lot of 831 00:51:02,280 --> 00:51:05,200 Speaker 1: cuddle party rules asked that you don't eat garlic beforehand. 832 00:51:05,320 --> 00:51:09,040 Speaker 1: Smart are very smart, and I will give them this. 833 00:51:09,560 --> 00:51:13,719 Speaker 1: There are a lot of rules around constant Yeah. Yeah, 834 00:51:13,760 --> 00:51:15,399 Speaker 1: they make sure to set it up ahead of time 835 00:51:15,440 --> 00:51:19,520 Speaker 1: that you know, no means no respect everybody's boundaries, all 836 00:51:19,560 --> 00:51:23,160 Speaker 1: of that stuff, which is incredibly important in any context. 837 00:51:23,320 --> 00:51:26,560 Speaker 1: But I especially appreciated how Nurturing Yourself noted that crying 838 00:51:26,600 --> 00:51:30,880 Speaker 1: and giggling are encouraged at their cuddle parties. Um. And 839 00:51:31,600 --> 00:51:33,520 Speaker 1: it's exactly what it sounds like. I mean, you kind 840 00:51:33,520 --> 00:51:37,800 Speaker 1: of you start off with sort of a group orientation 841 00:51:38,239 --> 00:51:42,520 Speaker 1: and then gradually it evolves into a one giant cuddle puddle. Yeah, 842 00:51:42,520 --> 00:51:44,560 Speaker 1: and people are making money off of this. People are 843 00:51:44,640 --> 00:51:47,839 Speaker 1: there are professional cuddlers out there. And you know, we're 844 00:51:47,840 --> 00:51:51,160 Speaker 1: not talking about some Japanese trend that has probably been 845 00:51:51,200 --> 00:51:54,560 Speaker 1: misinterpreted in American media. We're talking about in the United States, 846 00:51:55,200 --> 00:51:59,960 Speaker 1: professional coddlers have opened up shop. And this was report 847 00:52:00,040 --> 00:52:02,920 Speaker 1: it on in the Wall Street Journal, which I especially 848 00:52:03,000 --> 00:52:07,680 Speaker 1: appreciate it. I love picturing my father picking up the 849 00:52:07,680 --> 00:52:11,600 Speaker 1: Wall Street Journal, which he gets in the mail in 850 00:52:11,680 --> 00:52:14,920 Speaker 1: reading an article about professional cuddlers. I imagine he just 851 00:52:14,920 --> 00:52:18,200 Speaker 1: clears his throat very and comfortably, puts the paper down 852 00:52:18,200 --> 00:52:22,000 Speaker 1: and makes a sandwich. But it's a serious business. These 853 00:52:22,000 --> 00:52:26,480 Speaker 1: professional cuddlers will charge clients for non sexual snuggles. Obviously, 854 00:52:26,600 --> 00:52:30,280 Speaker 1: the number one thing that these professionals have to combat 855 00:52:30,360 --> 00:52:35,080 Speaker 1: our perceptions that it is a form of prostitution, essentially 856 00:52:35,080 --> 00:52:38,719 Speaker 1: your sex work. Um. But business names include Cuddle Up 857 00:52:38,760 --> 00:52:42,359 Speaker 1: to Me, the Snuggery, and Cuddle Therapy. And I think 858 00:52:42,360 --> 00:52:45,080 Speaker 1: Cuddle Therapy was one of the original ones, open not 859 00:52:45,160 --> 00:52:48,880 Speaker 1: surprisingly in San Francisco. And I mean, obviously it is 860 00:52:48,920 --> 00:52:51,600 Speaker 1: easy to laugh and dismiss this kind of stuff, but 861 00:52:51,719 --> 00:52:53,879 Speaker 1: they also talked to a woman named Samantha Hess who 862 00:52:53,880 --> 00:52:57,640 Speaker 1: opened up Portland's Cuddle Up to Me, and she specializes 863 00:52:57,719 --> 00:53:01,920 Speaker 1: in cuddles for people who've sperienced trauma, people with autism, 864 00:53:01,920 --> 00:53:05,279 Speaker 1: and she says that she regularly sees people with disabilities 865 00:53:05,280 --> 00:53:09,120 Speaker 1: and disfigurements who just in a very human nature way, 866 00:53:09,440 --> 00:53:12,479 Speaker 1: just need that human contact. Yeah, I mean, in that way, 867 00:53:12,560 --> 00:53:16,920 Speaker 1: it's um, it makes sense. That these businesses exist in 868 00:53:16,920 --> 00:53:20,239 Speaker 1: that and that clients seek them out for for non 869 00:53:20,320 --> 00:53:22,879 Speaker 1: sexual purposes. Just I think it was it was her 870 00:53:22,920 --> 00:53:24,960 Speaker 1: talking about how, you know, a lot of these people 871 00:53:25,000 --> 00:53:29,760 Speaker 1: just want to feel special and loved for a moment um, 872 00:53:29,840 --> 00:53:35,440 Speaker 1: And she's actually developed an entire curriculum of various types 873 00:53:35,520 --> 00:53:39,560 Speaker 1: of cuddles that clients can come in and select. Um. 874 00:53:39,600 --> 00:53:42,440 Speaker 1: I think there are lots of elderly patients or clients 875 00:53:42,480 --> 00:53:46,879 Speaker 1: I should say as well, because they live in such isolation. Yeah, 876 00:53:47,440 --> 00:53:51,560 Speaker 1: human touch is so important, it is. I'm a total convert, Yeah, 877 00:53:52,120 --> 00:53:57,480 Speaker 1: due to professional cuddling. Uh, not for me personally, but 878 00:53:57,560 --> 00:54:00,560 Speaker 1: now I'm a I'm a convert since I started dating 879 00:54:00,560 --> 00:54:05,760 Speaker 1: my boyfriend to convert general cuddling. Well, now I'm curious 880 00:54:05,800 --> 00:54:09,759 Speaker 1: to know about our listeners. Are you into cuddling? Do 881 00:54:09,880 --> 00:54:12,000 Speaker 1: you have any thoughts about cuddling? Have you ever been 882 00:54:12,040 --> 00:54:14,200 Speaker 1: to a cuddle party? We want to know all of 883 00:54:14,200 --> 00:54:18,000 Speaker 1: your cuddling thoughts and guys, do you ever encounter those 884 00:54:18,680 --> 00:54:21,920 Speaker 1: bogus gender stereotypes if you're a dude who likes to cuddle? 885 00:54:21,960 --> 00:54:24,600 Speaker 1: Has it ever backfired on you? Mom? Stuff at house 886 00:54:24,600 --> 00:54:27,440 Speaker 1: stuff works dot Com is our mailing address. You can 887 00:54:27,480 --> 00:54:30,480 Speaker 1: also tweet us at mom Stuff podcasts or messages on Facebook, 888 00:54:30,480 --> 00:54:32,279 Speaker 1: and we've got a couple of messages to share with 889 00:54:32,320 --> 00:54:36,640 Speaker 1: you when we come right back from a quick break, Caroline, 890 00:54:36,680 --> 00:54:39,719 Speaker 1: I'm in the process of giving my personal site, Chris 891 00:54:39,760 --> 00:54:44,000 Speaker 1: and Conor dot com a makeover thanks to Squarespace, and 892 00:54:44,040 --> 00:54:47,760 Speaker 1: I can tell you firsthand that it is super easy 893 00:54:47,800 --> 00:54:53,279 Speaker 1: to use, intuitive and they have fantastic design aesthetics. So 894 00:54:53,520 --> 00:54:56,040 Speaker 1: my new site is going to look real nice. It's 895 00:54:56,040 --> 00:54:59,560 Speaker 1: just pictures of Beyonce though, right pretty much? Yeah, basically, um, 896 00:54:59,640 --> 00:55:02,000 Speaker 1: so we're regardless of what celebrity you put on your 897 00:55:02,080 --> 00:55:05,120 Speaker 1: personal website. We use square Space. It's going to look 898 00:55:05,160 --> 00:55:09,520 Speaker 1: professionally designed, regardless of skill level, and there's no coding required. 899 00:55:09,560 --> 00:55:13,040 Speaker 1: They've got intuitive and easy to use tools, and you 900 00:55:13,080 --> 00:55:15,359 Speaker 1: get a free domain if you sign up for a year. 901 00:55:15,600 --> 00:55:18,520 Speaker 1: But folks, that means that Kristin Conger dot com is taken, 902 00:55:19,320 --> 00:55:23,280 Speaker 1: so don't even dry. But to start your free trial today, 903 00:55:23,360 --> 00:55:26,200 Speaker 1: head on over to square space dot com. And when 904 00:55:26,200 --> 00:55:28,480 Speaker 1: you decided to sign up for square space, make sure 905 00:55:28,920 --> 00:55:32,319 Speaker 1: you use our offer code mom staff to get ten 906 00:55:32,400 --> 00:55:37,520 Speaker 1: percent off your first purchase square Space. You should and 907 00:55:37,560 --> 00:55:44,520 Speaker 1: now back to the show. I will let her here 908 00:55:44,520 --> 00:55:49,440 Speaker 1: from Michelle. In response to our episode on wrinkles, she says, Hello, 909 00:55:49,520 --> 00:55:51,439 Speaker 1: I've been listening for a long time, and I'm writing 910 00:55:51,480 --> 00:55:53,200 Speaker 1: in for the first time now. I just listen to 911 00:55:53,239 --> 00:55:56,520 Speaker 1: your episode on wrinkles and something you mentioned sounded exactly 912 00:55:56,560 --> 00:55:59,359 Speaker 1: like what I've been told in real life. You talked 913 00:55:59,360 --> 00:56:01,600 Speaker 1: about a study where older women are judged to look 914 00:56:01,640 --> 00:56:05,720 Speaker 1: angry and unapproachable because of their sagging skin. Those exact 915 00:56:05,800 --> 00:56:09,600 Speaker 1: same words, angry and unapproachable, were thrown at me in 916 00:56:09,640 --> 00:56:12,920 Speaker 1: a job evaluation a couple of years ago. I'm fairly 917 00:56:12,960 --> 00:56:15,840 Speaker 1: young and don't have wrinkles yet, but do have resting 918 00:56:15,880 --> 00:56:19,200 Speaker 1: bitch face. I'm already hyper conscious of what my face 919 00:56:19,280 --> 00:56:21,719 Speaker 1: is doing at all times now thanks to that evaluation, 920 00:56:21,800 --> 00:56:24,319 Speaker 1: and I am terrified now of what's going to happen 921 00:56:24,360 --> 00:56:26,840 Speaker 1: when I start getting wrinkles. Will I be judged to 922 00:56:26,840 --> 00:56:29,719 Speaker 1: be even angrier and more unapproachable than I am now? 923 00:56:30,120 --> 00:56:32,799 Speaker 1: Will I live alone forever with my cat because other 924 00:56:32,880 --> 00:56:36,000 Speaker 1: humans don't think I'm pleasant enough. The connection between resting 925 00:56:36,000 --> 00:56:38,720 Speaker 1: bitch face and wrinkles is one I hadn't made before. 926 00:56:39,200 --> 00:56:42,239 Speaker 1: Men are allowed to have normal resting faces and age 927 00:56:42,280 --> 00:56:44,799 Speaker 1: while women are not. At the same time, a male 928 00:56:44,880 --> 00:56:47,800 Speaker 1: coworker that had what I would call arresting angry face 929 00:56:47,840 --> 00:56:50,839 Speaker 1: and I were talking about our evaluations. I told him 930 00:56:50,880 --> 00:56:53,160 Speaker 1: that I was called angry. He said that he was 931 00:56:53,200 --> 00:56:56,520 Speaker 1: simply told to work on his communication skills. It's enough 932 00:56:56,560 --> 00:56:59,520 Speaker 1: to make my mood reflect what my face is apparently 933 00:56:59,560 --> 00:57:04,120 Speaker 1: already showing. Here's to hoping that society changes enough by 934 00:57:04,120 --> 00:57:06,560 Speaker 1: the time I start getting wrinkles to keep me from 935 00:57:06,600 --> 00:57:09,719 Speaker 1: being friendless forever. I know you've done a video on 936 00:57:09,840 --> 00:57:12,360 Speaker 1: resting bitch Face, but if you ever do a whole podcast, 937 00:57:12,400 --> 00:57:15,160 Speaker 1: I'll certainly be interested. Thank you for all the work 938 00:57:15,200 --> 00:57:18,000 Speaker 1: you do well. Thank you, Michelle, and I'm sorry about 939 00:57:18,040 --> 00:57:23,240 Speaker 1: your evaluation at work. That's a fantastic idea. We should 940 00:57:23,520 --> 00:57:28,200 Speaker 1: so do a resting bitch Face episode. Uh So, I've 941 00:57:28,200 --> 00:57:30,800 Speaker 1: got a letter here from Janice about our street Art 942 00:57:30,880 --> 00:57:34,760 Speaker 1: Sisterhood podcast, and she writes, while I'm not a street artist, 943 00:57:34,840 --> 00:57:38,240 Speaker 1: I am a professional visual artist. About three years ago, 944 00:57:38,280 --> 00:57:41,320 Speaker 1: I took a deep breath, scrapped the serving job I had, 945 00:57:41,400 --> 00:57:44,280 Speaker 1: and went into business for myself full time as an artist. 946 00:57:44,840 --> 00:57:47,400 Speaker 1: Since then, I've been really working to build my portfolio 947 00:57:47,480 --> 00:57:50,160 Speaker 1: and get into galleries and such here in the Austin 948 00:57:50,240 --> 00:57:53,000 Speaker 1: area while surviving off of commissions and a part time 949 00:57:53,080 --> 00:57:55,600 Speaker 1: job at a local arts store. Thanks for the Internet, 950 00:57:55,600 --> 00:57:57,440 Speaker 1: I'm now able to reach an audience that allows me 951 00:57:57,480 --> 00:57:59,720 Speaker 1: to actually do this. But it also gives me a 952 00:57:59,720 --> 00:58:02,960 Speaker 1: man to wear, and it sometimes gives me some interesting 953 00:58:03,040 --> 00:58:06,720 Speaker 1: insights into how artists are viewed. One such insight I've 954 00:58:06,760 --> 00:58:09,320 Speaker 1: blamed is that people almost always assume that I'm male. 955 00:58:10,000 --> 00:58:12,520 Speaker 1: I'm almost without fail referred to as a heat even 956 00:58:12,560 --> 00:58:15,320 Speaker 1: though my name is Janice and a lot of people 957 00:58:15,360 --> 00:58:18,960 Speaker 1: find me through my website. Here's a real insight though 958 00:58:19,000 --> 00:58:21,360 Speaker 1: for myself. I learned early on that the mask of 959 00:58:21,400 --> 00:58:24,360 Speaker 1: anonymity can actually help me get a better sale. I'm 960 00:58:24,400 --> 00:58:26,920 Speaker 1: not sure why, but when people find out I'm female, 961 00:58:27,000 --> 00:58:29,280 Speaker 1: they seem to want to haggle with the price more. 962 00:58:29,600 --> 00:58:32,840 Speaker 1: IM not sure if everyone else's experiences, but it seems 963 00:58:32,840 --> 00:58:36,280 Speaker 1: that people think the work of women is somehow diminished 964 00:58:36,400 --> 00:58:39,440 Speaker 1: versus the work of a male counterpart. I've only been 965 00:58:39,440 --> 00:58:41,240 Speaker 1: listening to your podcast for about a month, and I'm 966 00:58:41,280 --> 00:58:43,080 Speaker 1: so excited to have found you, and I listened to 967 00:58:43,080 --> 00:58:45,040 Speaker 1: you know all the time while I'm painting and creating. 968 00:58:45,400 --> 00:58:48,080 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for the really interesting topics and 969 00:58:48,120 --> 00:58:51,040 Speaker 1: a more female viewpoint. A lot of podcasts have resonated 970 00:58:51,080 --> 00:58:52,600 Speaker 1: with me a great deal and I'm excited to go 971 00:58:52,640 --> 00:58:56,400 Speaker 1: back through all of the interesting topics. So thank you, Janice, 972 00:58:56,520 --> 00:59:01,120 Speaker 1: and for other visual artists out there sending I'm curious 973 00:59:01,120 --> 00:59:04,200 Speaker 1: if you found a similar thing in terms of people 974 00:59:04,200 --> 00:59:07,160 Speaker 1: wanting to haggle more with you and talk your price 975 00:59:07,240 --> 00:59:10,240 Speaker 1: down once they find out that you are a leady creator. 976 00:59:10,720 --> 00:59:12,640 Speaker 1: Let us know, Mom sab at house. Stuff works dot 977 00:59:12,680 --> 00:59:14,680 Speaker 1: com is our email address and for links to all 978 00:59:14,680 --> 00:59:16,880 Speaker 1: of our social media as well as all of our blogs, 979 00:59:16,960 --> 00:59:19,840 Speaker 1: videos and podcasts with our sources. So you can learn 980 00:59:19,920 --> 00:59:22,600 Speaker 1: more about the science of cuddling. Head on over to 981 00:59:22,720 --> 00:59:29,400 Speaker 1: stuff Mom Never Told You dot com for more on 982 00:59:29,520 --> 00:59:31,800 Speaker 1: this and thousands of other topics. Because it has to 983 00:59:32,000 --> 00:59:40,480 Speaker 1: works dot com