1 00:00:15,376 --> 00:00:15,816 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:20,436 --> 00:00:22,886 Speaker 2: One huge difference between making a podcast and writing a 3 00:00:22,946 --> 00:00:25,586 Speaker 2: book is the book has to get printed and sent 4 00:00:25,626 --> 00:00:29,106 Speaker 2: to stores and put on shelves. All that takes time, 5 00:00:29,306 --> 00:00:31,406 Speaker 2: so there's a long gap after you've written the book 6 00:00:31,946 --> 00:00:33,926 Speaker 2: until you go on book tour to talk about the book. 7 00:00:34,666 --> 00:00:36,436 Speaker 2: It's like you have to re-enter a mental space you 8 00:00:36,456 --> 00:00:40,516 Speaker 2: left months before, all fired up, all over again about 9 00:00:40,536 --> 00:00:43,496 Speaker 2: the same topic. But in this case, the mental space 10 00:00:43,536 --> 00:00:46,576 Speaker 2: around my latest book, Blocker's, Well, it's still all around us. 11 00:00:47,556 --> 00:00:49,256 Speaker 2: Now that I'm on the road talking about the book, 12 00:00:49,416 --> 00:00:51,516 Speaker 2: it feels like the audience is right there in the story. 13 00:00:52,456 --> 00:00:54,366 Speaker 1: We're all trying to make sense of it together. 14 00:00:56,426 --> 00:01:00,126 Speaker 2: I'm Michael Lewis, and this is the Blocker's Companion podcast 15 00:01:00,226 --> 00:01:03,606 Speaker 2: from Against the Rules. At the start of my book tour, 16 00:01:03,626 --> 00:01:05,846 Speaker 2: I got to do an event in Nashville at the 17 00:01:05,886 --> 00:01:10,796 Speaker 2: Montgomery Bell Academy's Paschal Theater. The master of ceremonies was 18 00:01:10,836 --> 00:01:14,126 Speaker 2: the novelist Ann Patchett. And up on stage with me 19 00:01:14,186 --> 00:01:20,236 Speaker 2: was actor, producer, and author Reese Witherspoon. This power duo 20 00:01:20,276 --> 00:01:22,596 Speaker 2: should have rendered me speechless, but as you'll hear, well, 21 00:01:23,356 --> 00:01:25,816 Speaker 2: I wasn't. Still, I loved doing this event, and I 22 00:01:25,856 --> 00:01:28,736 Speaker 2: want you to hear it as well. We'll drop you 23 00:01:28,816 --> 00:01:32,066 Speaker 2: in during Anne's introduction, and then you'll hear a little 24 00:01:32,106 --> 00:01:34,106 Speaker 2: from the audiobook version of Blockers. 25 00:01:39,536 --> 00:01:42,136 Speaker 3: There are a lot of people who are talented. There 26 00:01:42,156 --> 00:01:44,436 Speaker 3: are a lot of people who are smart. There are 27 00:01:44,456 --> 00:01:48,576 Speaker 3: a lot of people who have great ideas. But what 28 00:01:48,656 --> 00:01:51,736 Speaker 3: Michael Lewis does is he puts his talent and his 29 00:01:51,796 --> 00:01:57,386 Speaker 3: intelligence and his great ideas into the service of our country. 30 00:01:57,966 --> 00:02:02,806 Speaker 3: And I am so profoundly moved. Not only does this 31 00:02:02,846 --> 00:02:06,766 Speaker 3: book read like a thriller, it is an important and 32 00:02:06,846 --> 00:02:22,256 Speaker 3: moving book. I do solemnly swear that I will support 33 00:02:22,416 --> 00:02:26,196 Speaker 3: and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, 34 00:02:26,496 --> 00:02:29,716 Speaker 3: foreign and domestic, that I will bear true faith and 35 00:02:29,756 --> 00:02:31,016 Speaker 3: allegiance to the same. 36 00:02:31,396 --> 00:02:35,436 Speaker 1: That I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation 37 00:02:35,656 --> 00:02:37,986 Speaker 1: or purpose of evasion, and that I will well and 38 00:02:38,146 --> 00:02:40,766 Speaker 1: faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I 39 00:02:40,806 --> 00:02:44,326 Speaker 1: am about to enter. So help me God. Civil Service 40 00:02:44,406 --> 00:02:48,926 Speaker 1: Oath of Office, Title V, U.S. Code, Section 3331. 41 00:02:51,836 --> 00:02:56,046 Speaker 3: Ladies and gentlemen, Michael Lewis and his friend, Reese Witherspoon. 42 00:03:09,466 --> 00:03:10,516 Speaker 4: Hi, everybody. 43 00:03:11,076 --> 00:03:14,316 Speaker 5: So nice to see you guys. Michael, what was that 44 00:03:14,356 --> 00:03:15,216 Speaker 5: we just listened to? 45 00:03:15,316 --> 00:03:17,196 Speaker 1: That was the epigraph of the book. 46 00:03:17,456 --> 00:03:19,736 Speaker 2: And it's the oath of office the civil service takes, 47 00:03:19,936 --> 00:03:23,306 Speaker 2: not to a president, but to the Constitution. And when 48 00:03:23,336 --> 00:03:25,786 Speaker 2: we're doing the audio book, the producer had the bright 49 00:03:25,866 --> 00:03:29,726 Speaker 2: idea of getting former civil servants or actual civil servants 50 00:03:29,786 --> 00:03:32,426 Speaker 2: to do it. Those were all real people. And I 51 00:03:33,026 --> 00:03:35,026 Speaker 2: just started this kind of tour of the country. And 52 00:03:35,056 --> 00:03:37,076 Speaker 2: there are going to be a number of events and theaters. 53 00:03:37,456 --> 00:03:39,986 Speaker 2: And I want to create a little show. And so 54 00:03:40,006 --> 00:03:42,366 Speaker 2: I wanted to see how that sounded. And then I 55 00:03:42,386 --> 00:03:44,076 Speaker 2: was sort of, you're guinea pigs. 56 00:03:45,126 --> 00:03:48,216 Speaker 1: Was it good? Yeah. You guys like. 57 00:03:51,996 --> 00:03:52,136 Speaker 4: That? 58 00:03:52,216 --> 00:03:54,536 Speaker 6: I think it's also really interesting to maybe ask people 59 00:03:54,556 --> 00:03:55,836 Speaker 6: in the audience, is anybody a. 60 00:03:55,986 --> 00:03:58,066 Speaker 5: Civil servant or do they have a family member who's 61 00:03:58,086 --> 00:03:58,766 Speaker 5: a civil servant? 62 00:03:58,786 --> 00:04:01,606 Speaker 1: Could anybody who is a former federal worker stand up? 63 00:04:02,426 --> 00:04:04,726 Speaker 1: Any former federal workers? So we could see. There we go. 64 00:04:10,636 --> 00:04:10,816 Speaker 2: Yeah. 65 00:04:11,596 --> 00:04:13,176 Speaker 5: And see, they don't even want to stand up. 66 00:04:14,396 --> 00:04:14,806 Speaker 2: Here's the problem. 67 00:04:14,826 --> 00:04:16,126 Speaker 4: They don't even want to stand up. 68 00:04:16,286 --> 00:04:18,406 Speaker 1: You've identified the problem. That's right. 69 00:04:18,706 --> 00:04:23,046 Speaker 6: Well, Michael, this book is absolutely fascinating. So I want 70 00:04:23,066 --> 00:04:25,246 Speaker 6: to talk to you about blockers. First of all, the 71 00:04:25,306 --> 00:04:27,866 Speaker 6: word blockers. It seems like kind of a negative thing. 72 00:04:27,986 --> 00:04:28,966 Speaker 6: But where does. 73 00:04:28,906 --> 00:04:29,686 Speaker 4: That term come from? 74 00:04:30,066 --> 00:04:33,556 Speaker 1: So I'm going to have to explain the book a 75 00:04:33,556 --> 00:04:35,296 Speaker 1: little bit to explain the term. Yes, please. Can I 76 00:04:35,336 --> 00:04:35,856 Speaker 1: have a few minutes? 77 00:04:36,136 --> 00:04:36,856 Speaker 4: Absolutely. 78 00:04:36,876 --> 00:04:37,156 Speaker 1: All right. 79 00:04:37,336 --> 00:04:37,796 Speaker 5: I have an hour. 80 00:04:38,236 --> 00:04:39,116 Speaker 1: All right. So.... 81 00:04:41,746 --> 00:04:44,736 Speaker 2: I always start with a kind of a question or 82 00:04:44,756 --> 00:04:48,176 Speaker 2: it gets me going. What becomes a book really just 83 00:04:48,196 --> 00:04:50,196 Speaker 2: starts as a question that ends up having such an 84 00:04:50,236 --> 00:04:54,236 Speaker 2: interesting answer that it's worthy of a book. And in 85 00:04:54,276 --> 00:04:58,586 Speaker 2: this case, I got interested in Trump too when they 86 00:04:58,766 --> 00:05:00,386 Speaker 2: really came in and asserted that this is going to 87 00:05:00,406 --> 00:05:02,726 Speaker 2: be a different kind of presidency. They're claiming a lot 88 00:05:02,746 --> 00:05:05,706 Speaker 2: more power for the presidency. And among the powers they 89 00:05:05,746 --> 00:05:08,846 Speaker 2: were pushing for was the power to treat the civil 90 00:05:08,876 --> 00:05:13,086 Speaker 2: service as essentially employees of a corporation. It's a two-million-person 91 00:05:13,106 --> 00:05:16,666 Speaker 2: workforce that, as you heard, takes an oath to the Constitution, 92 00:05:16,706 --> 00:05:20,226 Speaker 2: does not serve a single person, and largely nonpartisan. Their 93 00:05:20,246 --> 00:05:22,826 Speaker 2: politics are not meant to be a part of their jobs, 94 00:05:22,906 --> 00:05:25,546 Speaker 2: and mostly doing stuff. And when you know what they're doing, 95 00:05:25,666 --> 00:05:28,746 Speaker 2: you say, where are the politics in that? And instead, 96 00:05:29,506 --> 00:05:33,766 Speaker 2: there's a push right now to turn them into a loyalist. 97 00:05:33,406 --> 00:05:35,586 Speaker 1: Operation that works for whoever happens to be president. 98 00:05:36,326 --> 00:05:39,006 Speaker 2: And the question was, what happens to the government when 99 00:05:39,286 --> 00:05:41,486 Speaker 2: the incentives change for the people working in it? What 100 00:05:41,526 --> 00:05:44,486 Speaker 2: happens to just the basic things that we just take 101 00:05:44,506 --> 00:05:46,646 Speaker 2: for granted? What happens to public safety? What happens to 102 00:05:47,866 --> 00:05:53,006 Speaker 2: the long-term investment in scientific research? What happens to data collection? 103 00:05:53,126 --> 00:05:55,866 Speaker 2: I started to kind of list all the functions. And 104 00:05:55,906 --> 00:05:58,206 Speaker 2: then I started to wander around the government and look 105 00:05:58,226 --> 00:06:01,236 Speaker 2: for people who were in doing the various functions. And 106 00:06:01,306 --> 00:06:03,326 Speaker 2: that's when I started to find that over and over, 107 00:06:03,946 --> 00:06:06,916 Speaker 2: People who were actually kind of mission critical. People like 108 00:06:07,276 --> 00:06:09,756 Speaker 2: the guy in charge of food safety at the FDA. 109 00:06:09,796 --> 00:06:11,856 Speaker 2: The guy in charge of making sure planes don't crash 110 00:06:11,896 --> 00:06:16,216 Speaker 2: at the FAA. One after another were either being forced 111 00:06:16,416 --> 00:06:19,066 Speaker 2: out or just found it so intolerable they were leaving. 112 00:06:19,626 --> 00:06:21,986 Speaker 1: And a number of them told me that they'd been 113 00:06:22,286 --> 00:06:23,766 Speaker 1: accused of being blockers. 114 00:06:24,106 --> 00:06:27,046 Speaker 2: And blockers was Elon Musk. He said, find the blockers 115 00:06:27,086 --> 00:06:28,716 Speaker 2: and get rid of them. That's what he told the 116 00:06:28,756 --> 00:06:30,676 Speaker 2: little muskrats who went and did the stuff for him, 117 00:06:31,276 --> 00:06:33,816 Speaker 2: the 20-year-olds. Then over and over, what I found was 118 00:06:33,846 --> 00:06:35,986 Speaker 2: that what the blockers were doing were just telling them 119 00:06:36,006 --> 00:06:36,506 Speaker 2: they weren't going to. 120 00:06:36,486 --> 00:06:37,626 Speaker 1: Break the law. 121 00:06:37,866 --> 00:06:40,246 Speaker 2: And that that was what, that was the, so I thought, 122 00:06:41,126 --> 00:06:44,506 Speaker 2: you know, it's an insult coming from Elon Musk, but 123 00:06:44,526 --> 00:06:46,976 Speaker 2: there's a long history of insults being turned into compliments. 124 00:06:47,266 --> 00:06:48,956 Speaker 1: Impressionist painters, the Tory party. 125 00:06:49,056 --> 00:06:50,956 Speaker 2: It's like, I'm going to try, I thought, I'm going 126 00:06:50,976 --> 00:06:52,836 Speaker 2: to stick this on the cover of the book and 127 00:06:52,856 --> 00:06:54,616 Speaker 2: we're going to turn this into a badge of honor. 128 00:06:55,356 --> 00:06:57,436 Speaker 1: So that's where the title came from. 129 00:06:58,426 --> 00:07:00,806 Speaker 5: Yeah, well, it's really fascinating. 130 00:07:00,906 --> 00:07:04,416 Speaker 6: You found these characters that are at the center of it, 131 00:07:04,426 --> 00:07:05,706 Speaker 6: but you created this framework. 132 00:07:05,766 --> 00:07:09,266 Speaker 5: It almost feels like an Agatha Christie novel. 133 00:07:09,346 --> 00:07:12,856 Speaker 6: Of like, they keep dropping one by one in each 134 00:07:12,916 --> 00:07:17,596 Speaker 6: department and they don't know who came after them and 135 00:07:17,616 --> 00:07:21,576 Speaker 6: they don't know who is checking on their work or 136 00:07:22,036 --> 00:07:27,636 Speaker 6: kind of urging them to expose government secrets or personal information. 137 00:07:27,666 --> 00:07:27,736 Speaker 3: Yeah. 138 00:07:28,696 --> 00:07:32,356 Speaker 6: I was thinking about Francis Collins, the head of the NIH, 139 00:07:32,616 --> 00:07:34,696 Speaker 6: and he's this incredible man. 140 00:07:34,716 --> 00:07:35,616 Speaker 4: Can you talk about him. 141 00:07:35,786 --> 00:07:36,346 Speaker 1: A little bit? 142 00:07:36,636 --> 00:07:39,846 Speaker 2: So what you're pinpointing is my attempt not to bore you. 143 00:07:41,366 --> 00:07:44,466 Speaker 2: It reads like a thriller. It was so much fun 144 00:07:44,506 --> 00:07:47,806 Speaker 2: to write. And I'm still getting my mind around why 145 00:07:47,846 --> 00:07:50,566 Speaker 2: it was so much fun to write. But it's like 146 00:07:50,586 --> 00:07:53,096 Speaker 2: the big short in that it's an ensemble piece about 147 00:07:53,136 --> 00:07:57,056 Speaker 2: something very big, like a big cultural event. In that case, 148 00:07:57,096 --> 00:08:00,406 Speaker 2: it was the financial crisis. And once I had the 149 00:08:00,496 --> 00:08:03,606 Speaker 2: frame of the thing, I actually could cast the characters 150 00:08:04,206 --> 00:08:06,826 Speaker 2: of my choice. But then the question is, when you 151 00:08:06,866 --> 00:08:10,666 Speaker 2: have an ensemble piece, how you subtly link the characters 152 00:08:10,686 --> 00:08:13,706 Speaker 2: so it's clear it's all one story. So you sense, 153 00:08:14,306 --> 00:08:18,296 Speaker 2: if I've done my job, you sense that you're getting 154 00:08:18,336 --> 00:08:21,256 Speaker 2: this portrait of the whole event, but in slices. 155 00:08:21,456 --> 00:08:23,556 Speaker 1: And so it adds up to the whole picture. 156 00:08:25,246 --> 00:08:28,566 Speaker 2: A miniature version of this is the section on the 157 00:08:28,606 --> 00:08:32,006 Speaker 2: long-term science project. And Francis Collins is the character I 158 00:08:32,026 --> 00:08:35,646 Speaker 2: picked to dramatize that. And this is, you know, in 159 00:08:35,686 --> 00:08:39,596 Speaker 2: this country, we have had this idea of using the 160 00:08:39,626 --> 00:08:43,376 Speaker 2: government to fund basic scientific research that the private sector 161 00:08:43,416 --> 00:08:45,736 Speaker 2: won't do. Dates back in a serious way to World 162 00:08:45,756 --> 00:08:48,166 Speaker 2: War II. It's a guy named Vannevar Bush. He was 163 00:08:48,206 --> 00:08:51,306 Speaker 2: involved in the Manhattan Project. You could see that they 164 00:08:51,346 --> 00:08:54,396 Speaker 2: could see the power of the science effort that went 165 00:08:54,436 --> 00:08:56,876 Speaker 2: on during World War II. And he said, look, we 166 00:08:56,896 --> 00:09:00,256 Speaker 2: should be doing this in life sciences too. And there's 167 00:09:00,296 --> 00:09:04,076 Speaker 2: a simple principle. The politicians don't decide who gets the money. 168 00:09:04,556 --> 00:09:07,576 Speaker 2: The scientists decide what gets pursued. The politicians decide how 169 00:09:07,616 --> 00:09:09,866 Speaker 2: much they get and then let the scientists decide what 170 00:09:09,876 --> 00:09:13,706 Speaker 2: to pursue. And it has been an unbelievably successful machine. 171 00:09:14,146 --> 00:09:16,386 Speaker 2: And one piece of this machine is the National Institutes 172 00:09:16,426 --> 00:09:19,726 Speaker 2: of Health. Many studies have been done that kind of 173 00:09:19,786 --> 00:09:22,966 Speaker 2: show that for every dollar that's spent there, many dollars 174 00:09:23,046 --> 00:09:25,666 Speaker 2: are returned. There are arguments you could make it a 175 00:09:25,666 --> 00:09:28,426 Speaker 2: little more efficient one way or another, but there isn't 176 00:09:28,526 --> 00:09:30,006 Speaker 2: really a good argument that it doesn't. 177 00:09:30,886 --> 00:09:34,456 Speaker 1: It doesn't function properly. It's been hugely successful. Cures for 178 00:09:34,476 --> 00:09:38,096 Speaker 1: all kinds of things. So Francis Collins, I didn't know 179 00:09:38,116 --> 00:09:39,616 Speaker 1: who I was going to pick for the role. 180 00:09:39,696 --> 00:09:40,036 Speaker 4: Yeah. 181 00:09:40,096 --> 00:09:42,156 Speaker 2: And I didn't know Francis Collins. He's the only person 182 00:09:42,196 --> 00:09:44,276 Speaker 2: in the book who anybody would have ever heard of. 183 00:09:44,676 --> 00:09:47,696 Speaker 2: He is a known person. He's written memoirs. He was 184 00:09:47,756 --> 00:09:49,776 Speaker 2: the head of the human- Fauci worked for him. Fauci 185 00:09:49,796 --> 00:09:51,216 Speaker 2: worked for him. He was the head of the Human 186 00:09:51,576 --> 00:09:54,776 Speaker 2: Genome Project. And as a pup, as a young scientist, 187 00:09:54,956 --> 00:09:57,156 Speaker 2: he identified the genetic source. 188 00:09:57,036 --> 00:10:02,466 Speaker 1: Of cystic fibrosis. This becomes important. So I knew two things. 189 00:10:03,106 --> 00:10:05,786 Speaker 2: Well, the first thing I knew was that nobody knew 190 00:10:05,826 --> 00:10:08,606 Speaker 2: that Francis Collins had been fired, that after Trump came 191 00:10:08,626 --> 00:10:10,716 Speaker 2: in the second time, it was just he told everybody 192 00:10:10,736 --> 00:10:11,496 Speaker 2: he was resigning. 193 00:10:12,116 --> 00:10:12,796 Speaker 1: And that was that. 194 00:10:12,916 --> 00:10:14,916 Speaker 2: And there was no news, real news about it. And 195 00:10:14,936 --> 00:10:17,146 Speaker 2: Francis was no longer head of the NIH. He'd been 196 00:10:17,166 --> 00:10:20,466 Speaker 2: head of the NIH under Trump one and under Obama 197 00:10:21,306 --> 00:10:24,686 Speaker 2: and I guess under Biden, too. But he was he'd 198 00:10:25,126 --> 00:10:27,786 Speaker 2: he'd moved on from the job. He was just running 199 00:10:27,826 --> 00:10:29,786 Speaker 2: his lab. He was just pursuing, he was doing what 200 00:10:29,816 --> 00:10:32,816 Speaker 2: he does best. He was looking for the genetic sources 201 00:10:33,056 --> 00:10:39,436 Speaker 2: of diabetes and a rare aging disease called progeria. He 202 00:10:39,476 --> 00:10:41,636 Speaker 2: had a personal reason for wanting to investigate it, but 203 00:10:41,696 --> 00:10:43,436 Speaker 2: it's sort of like if you can figure out what's 204 00:10:43,476 --> 00:10:45,416 Speaker 2: going on in this rapid aging process, you might learn 205 00:10:45,456 --> 00:10:45,996 Speaker 2: about aging. 206 00:10:46,436 --> 00:10:47,606 Speaker 1: So I knew he'd been fired. 207 00:10:48,236 --> 00:10:51,366 Speaker 2: And I got to him in his kitchen in Bethesda, Maryland. 208 00:10:51,846 --> 00:10:55,236 Speaker 2: And he says, You know, the odd thing is, I 209 00:10:55,676 --> 00:10:58,276 Speaker 2: don't know who fired me. And it felt like a 210 00:10:58,316 --> 00:11:00,416 Speaker 2: mob hit. He said, like, I don't know who whacked me. 211 00:11:01,196 --> 00:11:02,916 Speaker 2: And it was someone whacked me. I got shot in 212 00:11:02,936 --> 00:11:04,316 Speaker 2: the back of the head. And I don't know who 213 00:11:04,356 --> 00:11:06,556 Speaker 2: did it. But I know who it. 214 00:11:06,616 --> 00:11:07,326 Speaker 1: Might have been. 215 00:11:08,066 --> 00:11:11,826 Speaker 2: And at that moment, he had a list of five people. 216 00:11:11,966 --> 00:11:14,706 Speaker 2: And it was like RFK Jr. and Jay Bhattacharya, who 217 00:11:14,746 --> 00:11:17,446 Speaker 2: was in Trump was, you had to at least consider 218 00:11:17,486 --> 00:11:21,026 Speaker 2: the possibility of Trump. When I realized who the suspects were, 219 00:11:21,046 --> 00:11:24,826 Speaker 2: and I started to dig into it, I realized that one, 220 00:11:24,906 --> 00:11:28,566 Speaker 2: I had a closed room Agatha Christie murder mystery. 221 00:11:28,686 --> 00:11:30,406 Speaker 1: It was six men are in a room. They were 222 00:11:30,426 --> 00:11:33,516 Speaker 1: all men. The lights go out. You hear a shot. 223 00:11:33,996 --> 00:11:36,596 Speaker 2: The lights come back on. Francis Collins' body on the floor. 224 00:11:37,056 --> 00:11:38,696 Speaker 2: And there are five guys. One of them did it. 225 00:11:39,336 --> 00:11:40,756 Speaker 1: And when I moved. 226 00:11:40,476 --> 00:11:42,416 Speaker 2: Through those five people, it did what I hope the 227 00:11:42,436 --> 00:11:45,126 Speaker 2: whole book does for the government, for the law, the science, 228 00:11:45,146 --> 00:11:46,666 Speaker 2: the attack on the science project. 229 00:11:47,066 --> 00:11:49,466 Speaker 1: It's not just one thing that's coming for it. It's 230 00:11:49,546 --> 00:11:50,406 Speaker 1: many different things. 231 00:11:50,886 --> 00:11:53,906 Speaker 2: And each of the suspects was a different, like at 232 00:11:53,946 --> 00:11:56,466 Speaker 2: a different motive. And so you could paint the portrait 233 00:11:56,506 --> 00:12:00,396 Speaker 2: of the whole problem. But in addition, like Francis Collins, 234 00:12:01,896 --> 00:12:04,256 Speaker 2: even Francis Collins, who plays to an audience like this 235 00:12:04,456 --> 00:12:07,376 Speaker 2: all the time, he doesn't know how good his material is. 236 00:12:07,936 --> 00:12:10,936 Speaker 1: Like an example. So I'm trying to figure out what 237 00:12:10,956 --> 00:12:13,576 Speaker 1: his relationship with Donald Trump is. Because maybe Trump did it. 238 00:12:13,656 --> 00:12:15,816 Speaker 2: And if Trump did it, Trump usually brags about firing people. 239 00:12:15,856 --> 00:12:17,196 Speaker 2: So that already is a tell. 240 00:12:17,896 --> 00:12:19,176 Speaker 1: You're fired. He has a line. 241 00:12:19,196 --> 00:12:20,686 Speaker 5: He had a whole show about it. 242 00:12:20,706 --> 00:12:22,496 Speaker 1: Trump didn't say anything. Trump didn't say anything. 243 00:12:22,536 --> 00:12:25,886 Speaker 2: I said, like, what was your relationship with Trump like? 244 00:12:25,926 --> 00:12:30,986 Speaker 2: He goes, saw him twice after he interviewed me for 245 00:12:31,006 --> 00:12:32,926 Speaker 2: the job and gave me the job. So tell me 246 00:12:32,946 --> 00:12:35,186 Speaker 2: about it. He says, well, the first time, it all 247 00:12:35,206 --> 00:12:37,646 Speaker 2: went like this, kind of, he says. Trump gets to 248 00:12:37,766 --> 00:12:40,636 Speaker 2: be president the first time. And Jared Kushner calls me. 249 00:12:41,406 --> 00:12:43,566 Speaker 2: and says, the president wants to see you come over. 250 00:12:43,586 --> 00:12:44,406 Speaker 2: Can you come over right away? 251 00:12:44,946 --> 00:12:47,636 Speaker 1: What's it about? Jared says, I don't know. Just come 252 00:12:47,676 --> 00:12:47,976 Speaker 1: on over. 253 00:12:48,696 --> 00:12:51,256 Speaker 2: And Fred Scalise is used to getting calls from Obama 254 00:12:51,276 --> 00:12:54,656 Speaker 2: because Obama would like want to lecture about genomics. And 255 00:12:54,676 --> 00:12:57,746 Speaker 2: he would prepare whatever the lady, he'd come bring a 256 00:12:57,786 --> 00:13:00,766 Speaker 2: cool science presentation and the president would sit there and 257 00:13:00,806 --> 00:13:05,336 Speaker 2: ask him questions. Francis Collins gets to the Oval Office 258 00:13:05,376 --> 00:13:07,296 Speaker 2: and Jared Kushner is outside and says, let me tell 259 00:13:07,316 --> 00:13:07,776 Speaker 2: you something. 260 00:13:07,796 --> 00:13:09,476 Speaker 1: Don't talk to him about science. He has no interest. 261 00:13:09,936 --> 00:13:13,376 Speaker 2: Like he just none. He'll just shut down. And it 262 00:13:13,396 --> 00:13:15,416 Speaker 2: was like, well, why am I here? He says, he'll 263 00:13:15,456 --> 00:13:19,326 Speaker 2: tell you why you're here. And so this is actually 264 00:13:19,406 --> 00:13:22,586 Speaker 2: the beginning of COVID, the very beginning of COVID. And 265 00:13:22,826 --> 00:13:26,646 Speaker 2: Francis walks in and Trump says, man, have you seen 266 00:13:26,666 --> 00:13:29,866 Speaker 2: my poll numbers? They're unbelievably good. But they'd be so 267 00:13:29,906 --> 00:13:33,766 Speaker 2: much better if we had a cure. And Francis said, well, 268 00:13:33,816 --> 00:13:36,296 Speaker 2: we don't have a cure. You know, we're trying here. 269 00:13:37,296 --> 00:13:40,276 Speaker 2: And he said, no, no, we have a cure. My 270 00:13:40,316 --> 00:13:43,036 Speaker 2: friend Jack Nicholas just called. And he had a bad 271 00:13:43,056 --> 00:13:46,656 Speaker 2: case of COVID. And he took some hydroxychloroquine and it 272 00:13:46,676 --> 00:13:49,466 Speaker 2: went away. And you just need to tell everybody that 273 00:13:49,486 --> 00:13:56,236 Speaker 2: that works. And Francis says... We know we've actually studied that, 274 00:13:56,476 --> 00:13:59,566 Speaker 2: and it doesn't work. And he says, Trump says, that's bullshit. 275 00:13:59,766 --> 00:14:02,026 Speaker 2: He says, get me Jack Nicklaus on the phone. And 276 00:14:02,126 --> 00:14:06,596 Speaker 2: so on the speakerphone comes Jack Nicklaus. And he says, Jack, 277 00:14:06,976 --> 00:14:07,936 Speaker 2: got Francis Collins here. 278 00:14:07,976 --> 00:14:10,256 Speaker 1: Tell him the story. Jack Nicklaus tells him the story. 279 00:14:10,936 --> 00:14:13,566 Speaker 1: End of story. He says, Trump goes, see? See, it's 280 00:14:13,586 --> 00:14:16,586 Speaker 1: the cure for COVID. So that was. 281 00:14:16,506 --> 00:14:18,206 Speaker 2: The kind of thing he was dealing with. 282 00:14:18,566 --> 00:14:20,546 Speaker 5: And he didn't- And he was like, and I got 283 00:14:20,586 --> 00:14:21,206 Speaker 5: past that. 284 00:14:21,326 --> 00:14:22,676 Speaker 4: And he kept me and he didn't fire me. 285 00:14:22,686 --> 00:14:24,906 Speaker 1: He didn't fire me, but he also, he didn't know 286 00:14:24,926 --> 00:14:27,366 Speaker 1: how funny that story was. It's like, he just like, 287 00:14:27,406 --> 00:14:31,346 Speaker 1: he threw that like by the by. We're going to 288 00:14:31,366 --> 00:14:32,106 Speaker 1: take a quick break. 289 00:14:32,546 --> 00:14:34,526 Speaker 2: When we return, I try to change the topic and 290 00:14:34,576 --> 00:14:36,006 Speaker 2: talk about something other than my book. 291 00:14:36,736 --> 00:14:38,576 Speaker 1: But Reese Witherspoon won't let me. 292 00:14:39,336 --> 00:14:51,756 Speaker 2: So we talk about a showdown at the IRS. We're 293 00:14:51,796 --> 00:14:54,896 Speaker 2: back and talking blockers at the Paschal Theater in Nashville. 294 00:14:57,096 --> 00:14:58,476 Speaker 2: This almost never happens to me. I bet it happens 295 00:14:58,516 --> 00:14:58,936 Speaker 2: to Anne. 296 00:14:59,256 --> 00:14:59,876 Speaker 1: Anne's an artist. 297 00:15:00,986 --> 00:15:03,506 Speaker 2: Anne probably the thing happens and she goes, oh my God, 298 00:15:03,546 --> 00:15:05,356 Speaker 2: it came to me and it was You know, it 299 00:15:05,376 --> 00:15:07,776 Speaker 2: just out of the blue and the story spoke to me. 300 00:15:07,896 --> 00:15:09,686 Speaker 2: I go get the stuff and I kind of know 301 00:15:09,726 --> 00:15:11,116 Speaker 2: what's going to be on the page. And I kind 302 00:15:11,156 --> 00:15:14,606 Speaker 2: of know, I lay it out really carefully. Measure six 303 00:15:14,666 --> 00:15:18,126 Speaker 2: times before I, I sometimes know the end last sentence 304 00:15:18,166 --> 00:15:18,606 Speaker 2: of the book. 305 00:15:18,506 --> 00:15:19,606 Speaker 1: Before I write the first sentence. 306 00:15:19,706 --> 00:15:20,646 Speaker 4: That's incredible. 307 00:15:20,746 --> 00:15:22,086 Speaker 1: I mean, I have to, I just have to know 308 00:15:22,386 --> 00:15:23,406 Speaker 1: you have to, you need a map. 309 00:15:23,686 --> 00:15:24,166 Speaker 4: You need a map. 310 00:15:24,206 --> 00:15:25,646 Speaker 1: You need to know where you're going. Right. 311 00:15:26,206 --> 00:15:29,886 Speaker 2: And this, I was writing this section and I got 312 00:15:29,926 --> 00:15:33,126 Speaker 2: to the end and The last line was something like, 313 00:15:33,166 --> 00:15:36,246 Speaker 2: there was almost nothing Francis Collins couldn't understand except for cruelty. 314 00:15:36,546 --> 00:15:38,746 Speaker 2: Like it was just the pure cruelty of this thing. 315 00:15:39,326 --> 00:15:43,326 Speaker 2: And I thought, the book has progressed emotionally. It's dialing 316 00:15:43,386 --> 00:15:45,606 Speaker 2: up the emotion as you go through it. It's getting 317 00:15:46,496 --> 00:15:49,996 Speaker 2: more and more disturbing. Even as it's fun to write, 318 00:15:50,016 --> 00:15:53,096 Speaker 2: it's hard to explain that. But I got to that 319 00:15:53,116 --> 00:15:56,476 Speaker 2: and I thought, God, this book just ended. There was 320 00:15:56,496 --> 00:15:57,856 Speaker 2: a whole other character I was going to go to. 321 00:15:58,576 --> 00:16:01,056 Speaker 2: And I even explained this to the reader at the end. Sorry, 322 00:16:01,076 --> 00:16:02,796 Speaker 2: I had this other story. It was great, but we're 323 00:16:02,846 --> 00:16:05,346 Speaker 2: done here. There was nowhere else to go. And I 324 00:16:05,706 --> 00:16:10,286 Speaker 2: kept thinking, why did that, in addition to being very convenient, 325 00:16:10,306 --> 00:16:12,746 Speaker 2: because I was late, so all of a sudden my deadline, 326 00:16:13,006 --> 00:16:14,546 Speaker 2: all of a sudden I was going to hit my deadline. 327 00:16:14,846 --> 00:16:17,806 Speaker 1: But why did I have that? That almost never happens 328 00:16:17,846 --> 00:16:18,106 Speaker 1: to me. 329 00:16:18,486 --> 00:16:20,976 Speaker 2: Like, why did I realize this whole thing just fell 330 00:16:21,026 --> 00:16:23,276 Speaker 2: away and I didn't need it? And I realized that 331 00:16:23,416 --> 00:16:24,276 Speaker 2: this was this. 332 00:16:24,176 --> 00:16:25,376 Speaker 1: Thing, this cruelty thing. 333 00:16:25,976 --> 00:16:29,836 Speaker 2: This imposing suffering on others, which is going on throughout 334 00:16:29,876 --> 00:16:31,276 Speaker 2: the book. 335 00:16:31,316 --> 00:16:33,076 Speaker 4: And throughout life right now. 336 00:16:33,216 --> 00:16:34,066 Speaker 1: Throughout life right now. 337 00:16:34,086 --> 00:16:37,246 Speaker 6: I feel like the standards for how we treat each 338 00:16:37,286 --> 00:16:40,606 Speaker 6: other has rapidly diminished in every aspect. 339 00:16:40,666 --> 00:16:42,186 Speaker 5: And this is sort of an example of. 340 00:16:42,166 --> 00:16:42,706 Speaker 1: It as well. 341 00:16:42,726 --> 00:16:46,206 Speaker 2: But I was asking myself, what's this about? Like, why 342 00:16:46,246 --> 00:16:49,446 Speaker 2: do they need to make Francis Collins suffer? And I 343 00:16:49,486 --> 00:16:52,666 Speaker 2: was reminded, I can't remember the exact line, but there's 344 00:16:52,696 --> 00:16:56,886 Speaker 2: a line in 1984 in George Orwell's novel. where one 345 00:16:57,026 --> 00:16:59,066 Speaker 2: of the characters says, how do you know you have power? 346 00:17:00,196 --> 00:17:03,396 Speaker 2: How do you know you have power? It isn't that 347 00:17:03,476 --> 00:17:06,046 Speaker 2: when you tell people what to do, they do it, 348 00:17:06,536 --> 00:17:09,036 Speaker 2: because they might have wanted to do it anyway. That's 349 00:17:09,076 --> 00:17:12,076 Speaker 2: not really proof. You know you have power when you 350 00:17:12,096 --> 00:17:16,486 Speaker 2: can make people suffer. And I think that that suffering 351 00:17:16,606 --> 00:17:19,766 Speaker 2: is a feature of this current moment, because this current 352 00:17:19,786 --> 00:17:22,566 Speaker 2: moment is really about power. Anyway, I feel like I've 353 00:17:22,606 --> 00:17:24,166 Speaker 2: gone on too much about my book. I have read 354 00:17:24,186 --> 00:17:26,846 Speaker 2: this book sitting next to me. And it's like a 355 00:17:26,906 --> 00:17:32,016 Speaker 2: bad date. Maureen Dowd had this great line. She wrote 356 00:17:32,036 --> 00:17:35,076 Speaker 2: a piece about dating Washington men. And she opens with 357 00:17:35,116 --> 00:17:37,716 Speaker 2: a date. It's a guy, a Washington guy. And he 358 00:17:37,756 --> 00:17:39,876 Speaker 2: talks about himself for the first half hour of the dinner. 359 00:17:39,956 --> 00:17:42,676 Speaker 1: They've never met. And then he says, enough about me. 360 00:17:42,716 --> 00:17:43,676 Speaker 1: Let's talk about my book. 361 00:17:48,236 --> 00:17:52,756 Speaker 2: And so I think I'm getting really close to creating 362 00:17:52,836 --> 00:17:54,276 Speaker 2: that kind of environment on this. 363 00:17:54,196 --> 00:17:55,756 Speaker 1: Stage, and we don't want to do that. 364 00:17:55,916 --> 00:17:56,796 Speaker 4: Well, enough about blockers. 365 00:17:56,816 --> 00:17:57,996 Speaker 5: Should we talk about another one of your books? 366 00:17:58,016 --> 00:17:58,536 Speaker 1: We could talk about. 367 00:17:58,556 --> 00:18:00,126 Speaker 4: I'm just kidding. 368 00:18:00,166 --> 00:18:01,586 Speaker 1: We could talk about. 369 00:18:01,606 --> 00:18:03,626 Speaker 2: There are many things we can talk about, and you 370 00:18:03,686 --> 00:18:05,566 Speaker 2: are leading this conversation, but at some point we ought 371 00:18:05,586 --> 00:18:06,206 Speaker 2: to get to movies. 372 00:18:07,346 --> 00:18:08,366 Speaker 4: We should talk about movies. 373 00:18:08,446 --> 00:18:10,326 Speaker 6: I do want to say you pull off another magic 374 00:18:10,366 --> 00:18:12,646 Speaker 6: trick in this book, which is taking someone who works 375 00:18:12,706 --> 00:18:15,746 Speaker 6: the IRS and making them an absolute hero. 376 00:18:15,766 --> 00:18:16,626 Speaker 1: Oh, my God. 377 00:18:17,086 --> 00:18:17,416 Speaker 2: Yes. 378 00:18:17,546 --> 00:18:18,846 Speaker 5: Do you know what I'm saying? 379 00:18:18,896 --> 00:18:19,216 Speaker 2: Yes. 380 00:18:19,526 --> 00:18:21,476 Speaker 6: And you also, there's another thing I feel like is 381 00:18:21,516 --> 00:18:26,076 Speaker 6: really interesting, too, that you reemphasize to all of us 382 00:18:26,236 --> 00:18:29,316 Speaker 6: how much we rely and depend on the systems that 383 00:18:29,356 --> 00:18:32,436 Speaker 6: we don't see and that we don't think about. 384 00:18:32,816 --> 00:18:35,776 Speaker 4: But we operate under this sort of blind. 385 00:18:38,086 --> 00:18:40,506 Speaker 6: that things are just going to happen for us, right? 386 00:18:40,546 --> 00:18:42,386 Speaker 6: And I think this has been a real... The whole 387 00:18:42,426 --> 00:18:47,956 Speaker 6: book is such an illuminating read because it's terrifying to 388 00:18:48,026 --> 00:18:49,676 Speaker 6: see things, the systems. 389 00:18:49,336 --> 00:18:50,656 Speaker 4: That have been upended. 390 00:18:50,676 --> 00:18:51,796 Speaker 1: Taken for granted. 391 00:18:51,956 --> 00:18:56,696 Speaker 6: Taken for granted and also dismantled. And now we're seeing 392 00:18:56,756 --> 00:19:00,516 Speaker 6: sort of, I think, after the results of Doge, right? 393 00:19:00,596 --> 00:19:01,396 Speaker 4: Now we're starting to. 394 00:19:01,356 --> 00:19:05,196 Speaker 5: See the problems like vaccines and. 395 00:19:05,336 --> 00:19:09,036 Speaker 1: Lettuce. Lettuce. The bad lettuce. Yeah, the bad lettuce. That 396 00:19:09,056 --> 00:19:12,656 Speaker 1: was actually a direct result of cutting the inspectors. But 397 00:19:12,756 --> 00:19:13,336 Speaker 1: I do want to talk. 398 00:19:13,256 --> 00:19:15,016 Speaker 6: About Kathleen Walters and the IRS. 399 00:19:15,036 --> 00:19:18,056 Speaker 2: Should I just quickly tell who she is and why? 400 00:19:18,646 --> 00:19:23,366 Speaker 2: So I told Reese this earlier, that it is true 401 00:19:23,806 --> 00:19:25,666 Speaker 2: that no one's ever heard of her. Her story never 402 00:19:25,686 --> 00:19:28,586 Speaker 2: hit the newspaper. She was the chief. 403 00:19:28,846 --> 00:19:29,726 Speaker 5: How did you find her? 404 00:19:31,216 --> 00:19:32,336 Speaker 1: All these people the same way. 405 00:19:32,736 --> 00:19:35,716 Speaker 2: I started thinking that, oh, that person might be a character, 406 00:19:36,156 --> 00:19:40,006 Speaker 2: and I go have lunch with that person. I get 407 00:19:40,086 --> 00:19:41,966 Speaker 2: bored with that person, and that person tells me about 408 00:19:42,006 --> 00:19:42,566 Speaker 2: another person. 409 00:19:43,926 --> 00:19:47,326 Speaker 1: And it's speed dating. It is speed dating. It is 410 00:19:47,386 --> 00:19:47,846 Speaker 1: speed dating. 411 00:19:47,866 --> 00:19:49,786 Speaker 6: And can you tell in an interview when people are 412 00:19:49,786 --> 00:19:52,546 Speaker 6: going to have a compelling story or if it's going 413 00:19:52,546 --> 00:19:53,326 Speaker 6: to go nowhere? 414 00:19:53,326 --> 00:19:55,146 Speaker 1: It isn't their fault. It's it's not. 415 00:19:55,386 --> 00:19:56,146 Speaker 5: That they're boring? 416 00:19:56,326 --> 00:19:57,166 Speaker 1: No, it isn't. 417 00:19:57,286 --> 00:20:00,346 Speaker 2: They're not, it's not even that they're, it's like, can 418 00:20:00,406 --> 00:20:02,956 Speaker 2: they teach? I need people who can teach people. All 419 00:20:02,996 --> 00:20:04,956 Speaker 2: my characters, all I have in common is they, they're 420 00:20:04,976 --> 00:20:08,356 Speaker 2: great teachers. I need someone who's lighting up my brain 421 00:20:08,616 --> 00:20:10,036 Speaker 2: because they're teaching me stuff. 422 00:20:10,096 --> 00:20:10,216 Speaker 3: Okay. 423 00:20:10,236 --> 00:20:12,216 Speaker 5: That you don't know about and you're like, tell me 424 00:20:12,256 --> 00:20:12,696 Speaker 5: more about this. 425 00:20:12,856 --> 00:20:15,636 Speaker 2: And, and, but I'm seeing like connections between things. So 426 00:20:15,656 --> 00:20:18,686 Speaker 2: can I meet Kathleen Walters if Someone's introduced me to someone, 427 00:20:18,766 --> 00:20:22,246 Speaker 2: introduced me to someone else, and that person says, you 428 00:20:22,266 --> 00:20:23,246 Speaker 2: ought to meet Kathleen Walters. 429 00:20:23,266 --> 00:20:26,266 Speaker 1: Who's Kathleen Walters? Chief Privacy Officer. Okay, I'll go meet her. 430 00:20:26,786 --> 00:20:31,076 Speaker 2: So she's a small town girl from Pennsylvania whose dad 431 00:20:31,096 --> 00:20:33,956 Speaker 2: was Atticus Finch in their town, who she just wanted 432 00:20:33,976 --> 00:20:38,016 Speaker 2: to be her dad. She went into the law, but 433 00:20:38,036 --> 00:20:40,156 Speaker 2: the corporate law was all about money, so she found 434 00:20:40,216 --> 00:20:43,076 Speaker 2: it soul-sucking. She just wanted to serve and comes to 435 00:20:43,096 --> 00:20:46,836 Speaker 2: the government this way. Great student, went to Georgetown, UVA Law, 436 00:20:47,286 --> 00:20:50,166 Speaker 2: very by-the-book kind of person. No one had a bad 437 00:20:50,206 --> 00:20:53,596 Speaker 2: word to say about her. She was a superstar in government. 438 00:20:54,136 --> 00:20:56,496 Speaker 2: No one knew her politics. And now she's in this job. 439 00:20:57,416 --> 00:21:00,136 Speaker 2: She is the human being between your tax return and 440 00:21:00,156 --> 00:21:02,176 Speaker 2: a White House that might seek to use it to 441 00:21:02,236 --> 00:21:02,736 Speaker 2: damage you. 442 00:21:03,276 --> 00:21:09,226 Speaker 1: And she takes the duty very seriously. So I finished 443 00:21:09,246 --> 00:21:10,986 Speaker 1: with her, but I'm going to explain why she was 444 00:21:11,026 --> 00:21:11,846 Speaker 1: so useful to me. 445 00:21:12,586 --> 00:21:16,006 Speaker 2: After the inauguration, she starts to get enormous pressure on 446 00:21:16,066 --> 00:21:21,996 Speaker 2: her to release 7 million tax returns to ICE, to 447 00:21:22,016 --> 00:21:25,556 Speaker 2: the Department of Homeland Security. And it's a database inside, 448 00:21:25,596 --> 00:21:29,376 Speaker 2: it's a very sensitive database inside the IRS of tax 449 00:21:29,396 --> 00:21:32,726 Speaker 2: returns of undocumented workers. And they wanted this information so 450 00:21:32,736 --> 00:21:35,086 Speaker 2: they could raid the homes, actually in the dead of 451 00:21:35,146 --> 00:21:37,526 Speaker 2: night and pull people out of their beds. 452 00:21:37,866 --> 00:21:42,326 Speaker 1: And she said no. So she said no and was 453 00:21:43,206 --> 00:21:45,356 Speaker 1: in such got so. 454 00:21:45,296 --> 00:21:47,996 Speaker 2: Crosswise with the Doge people who were in the IRS 455 00:21:48,436 --> 00:21:51,716 Speaker 2: that there was a day when the 25-year-old, who was 456 00:21:51,876 --> 00:21:55,166 Speaker 2: the Doge person, was literally running around the IRS in 457 00:21:55,186 --> 00:21:58,226 Speaker 2: a game of hide-and-seek trying to find her, to fire her. 458 00:21:58,566 --> 00:22:00,326 Speaker 1: And she had the keys to all the offices. 459 00:22:00,726 --> 00:22:02,686 Speaker 2: And she locked herself in this conference room and turned 460 00:22:02,706 --> 00:22:05,126 Speaker 2: off the lights and just sat there for like seven hours. 461 00:22:05,146 --> 00:22:06,646 Speaker 1: And she says, I know these 25-year-old boys. 462 00:22:09,346 --> 00:22:13,476 Speaker 2: They lose interest quickly, that if I get out of 463 00:22:13,496 --> 00:22:15,336 Speaker 2: here at six o'clock at night, he'll forget. 464 00:22:15,356 --> 00:22:17,996 Speaker 1: And sure enough, it happened. 465 00:22:18,316 --> 00:22:21,816 Speaker 2: So she is the human being between these seven million 466 00:22:21,836 --> 00:22:24,276 Speaker 2: people and the people who want to go rails, get 467 00:22:24,296 --> 00:22:25,376 Speaker 2: them out of bed in the middle of the night. 468 00:22:26,116 --> 00:22:30,126 Speaker 2: And she fights a valiant fight, but eventually she loses 469 00:22:30,186 --> 00:22:30,526 Speaker 2: her job. 470 00:22:30,566 --> 00:22:31,006 Speaker 1: She leaves. 471 00:22:31,806 --> 00:22:34,626 Speaker 6: You know, having read the book, Blockers, how do the 472 00:22:34,666 --> 00:22:37,946 Speaker 6: people inside of it feel about seeing themselves represented in 473 00:22:38,986 --> 00:22:41,616 Speaker 6: do they feel like these are accurate portrayals of who 474 00:22:41,656 --> 00:22:42,456 Speaker 6: they really are? 475 00:22:42,476 --> 00:22:43,956 Speaker 4: Or do they feel very seen? 476 00:22:44,616 --> 00:22:47,336 Speaker 6: Or do you ever have a situation where somebody has 477 00:22:47,416 --> 00:22:50,876 Speaker 6: come back to you and said, that's not representative of me? 478 00:22:50,896 --> 00:22:52,076 Speaker 1: All right. 479 00:22:52,146 --> 00:22:52,946 Speaker 5: It's a delicate dance. 480 00:22:52,966 --> 00:22:54,186 Speaker 1: It is a very delicate dance. 481 00:22:54,406 --> 00:22:57,986 Speaker 6: I know that just from playing real people, it's delicate, 482 00:22:58,046 --> 00:22:59,546 Speaker 6: you know, and you want to do everything right, but 483 00:22:59,566 --> 00:23:01,766 Speaker 6: you also can't make people something they're not. 484 00:23:02,026 --> 00:23:02,226 Speaker 1: Yep. 485 00:23:02,966 --> 00:23:06,736 Speaker 5: You also can't show one side of their personality. 486 00:23:06,756 --> 00:23:09,016 Speaker 4: You have to show the Both sides. You know what 487 00:23:09,056 --> 00:23:09,296 Speaker 4: I'm saying? 488 00:23:09,316 --> 00:23:14,236 Speaker 6: You're not trying to create art characters that are. 489 00:23:14,256 --> 00:23:16,396 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, you have. 490 00:23:16,356 --> 00:23:17,016 Speaker 1: To show the truth. 491 00:23:17,056 --> 00:23:19,186 Speaker 2: If you're going to distort them in any way, distort 492 00:23:19,226 --> 00:23:20,126 Speaker 2: them in a way that's true. 493 00:23:20,486 --> 00:23:21,586 Speaker 1: Yeah. 494 00:23:22,646 --> 00:23:24,466 Speaker 5: And I would think sometimes it would be easy to 495 00:23:24,506 --> 00:23:25,566 Speaker 5: paint people. 496 00:23:27,326 --> 00:23:31,626 Speaker 6: In a villainous way or in a super altruistic way, 497 00:23:31,666 --> 00:23:34,406 Speaker 6: but you manage to paint real portraits. 498 00:23:34,466 --> 00:23:36,466 Speaker 2: The problem I get into over and over, it's too raw. 499 00:23:37,336 --> 00:23:41,336 Speaker 2: And so what happens is there is always a little 500 00:23:41,376 --> 00:23:44,096 Speaker 2: speed bump in our relationship right when they see the book. 501 00:23:44,276 --> 00:23:45,716 Speaker 1: And they see the book a week before it comes out. 502 00:23:46,076 --> 00:23:48,596 Speaker 2: And the speed bump, it's a bit like what I've 503 00:23:48,646 --> 00:23:51,266 Speaker 2: done is I've made them listen to the sound of 504 00:23:51,306 --> 00:23:52,406 Speaker 2: their own voice for the first time. 505 00:23:52,586 --> 00:23:53,626 Speaker 1: It's like alien to them. 506 00:23:54,136 --> 00:23:56,796 Speaker 2: And not until people who know them and love them, 507 00:23:56,896 --> 00:23:58,856 Speaker 2: who they know know them and love them, read it 508 00:23:58,886 --> 00:23:59,706 Speaker 2: and say, that's you. 509 00:24:00,186 --> 00:24:01,066 Speaker 1: Do they feel comfortable? 510 00:24:01,166 --> 00:24:05,046 Speaker 6: I can imagine, too, this type of person doesn't want 511 00:24:05,146 --> 00:24:07,786 Speaker 6: to be centered or focused. 512 00:24:08,406 --> 00:24:11,456 Speaker 2: The civil service is almost designed to suppress story. It's 513 00:24:11,506 --> 00:24:15,816 Speaker 2: designed to never tell the narrative. You just reminded me 514 00:24:15,836 --> 00:24:20,676 Speaker 2: of something. So when Moneyball came out, Moneyball, you say, 515 00:24:21,736 --> 00:24:23,756 Speaker 2: what could Billy Beane possibly object to? 516 00:24:24,316 --> 00:24:26,056 Speaker 1: Like Brad Pitt's going to play him in a movie. 517 00:24:26,076 --> 00:24:26,796 Speaker 4: Brad Pitt is playing you. 518 00:24:26,796 --> 00:24:28,166 Speaker 1: It transforms his. 519 00:24:28,186 --> 00:24:29,446 Speaker 4: Like why are you upset about that? 520 00:24:29,726 --> 00:24:36,126 Speaker 1: He reads the book. And he calls me. He is apoplectic. Apoplectic. 521 00:24:36,506 --> 00:24:38,526 Speaker 1: It's hard to describe. He's not even saying words. 522 00:24:38,546 --> 00:24:41,166 Speaker 2: This is like this noise coming out of the phone 523 00:24:41,246 --> 00:24:43,306 Speaker 2: at me. 524 00:24:43,426 --> 00:24:46,686 Speaker 1: And he doesn't want to insult me exactly, but he's 525 00:24:46,746 --> 00:24:49,426 Speaker 1: so angry. And I said like, all right. 526 00:24:50,596 --> 00:24:53,196 Speaker 2: Because this was one of the more dramatic examples, but 527 00:24:53,236 --> 00:24:54,396 Speaker 2: a version of this happens all the time. 528 00:24:55,316 --> 00:24:58,056 Speaker 1: He says, I thought, what I thought was. 529 00:24:57,976 --> 00:25:01,096 Speaker 2: Going on was they're all, this is always a little 530 00:25:01,116 --> 00:25:02,836 Speaker 2: bit of a sneaky thing going. You're trying to understand 531 00:25:02,876 --> 00:25:05,096 Speaker 2: people and sometimes they don't want to be completely understood. 532 00:25:05,436 --> 00:25:07,976 Speaker 2: But in his case, I thought, oh my God, he's 533 00:25:07,996 --> 00:25:10,186 Speaker 2: going to be so furious because I found the secrets 534 00:25:10,226 --> 00:25:12,566 Speaker 2: of the Oakland A's. I've put them in print and 535 00:25:12,906 --> 00:25:14,886 Speaker 2: all the other baseball teams are going to know. And 536 00:25:14,926 --> 00:25:17,406 Speaker 2: he's angry because I've just blown his competitive advantage. 537 00:25:17,806 --> 00:25:17,946 Speaker 3: No. 538 00:25:18,706 --> 00:25:21,266 Speaker 2: I said, Billy, why are you upset? He says, you 539 00:25:21,286 --> 00:25:26,106 Speaker 2: have me saying fuck all the time. And I said, 540 00:25:27,126 --> 00:25:31,246 Speaker 2: you do say fuck all the time. And he says, 541 00:25:31,726 --> 00:25:34,586 Speaker 2: you don't understand. My mother's going to be furious. And 542 00:25:34,706 --> 00:25:39,026 Speaker 2: I said, I said your mother? Like, Billy, I thought 543 00:25:39,106 --> 00:25:40,806 Speaker 2: you were going to be angry because I've just given 544 00:25:40,826 --> 00:25:42,806 Speaker 2: your secrets to every other baseball team in the country. 545 00:25:42,846 --> 00:25:43,706 Speaker 5: He didn't care about that? 546 00:25:43,906 --> 00:25:46,226 Speaker 1: He says, he gives us like this long pause on 547 00:25:46,246 --> 00:25:46,826 Speaker 1: the other line. 548 00:25:46,846 --> 00:25:49,026 Speaker 2: He goes, you don't think anybody in baseball is going 549 00:25:49,046 --> 00:25:49,626 Speaker 2: to read your book. 550 00:25:52,156 --> 00:25:53,316 Speaker 1: Nobody's going to read this thing. 551 00:25:53,336 --> 00:25:55,656 Speaker 2: He's like, my mother's going to read this thing and 552 00:25:55,756 --> 00:25:58,516 Speaker 2: she's going to be furious. She's going to be absolutely furious. 553 00:25:59,146 --> 00:26:02,906 Speaker 2: And the truth was, she was absolutely furious. I took 554 00:26:02,946 --> 00:26:05,006 Speaker 2: her to dinner and tried to charm her. At the 555 00:26:05,086 --> 00:26:07,446 Speaker 2: end of it, she was still furious. Like she stared 556 00:26:07,486 --> 00:26:09,186 Speaker 2: at me for an hour and a half and almost 557 00:26:09,226 --> 00:26:09,866 Speaker 2: wouldn't speak to me. 558 00:26:10,326 --> 00:26:12,436 Speaker 1: And like my son doesn't talk like that. She just 559 00:26:12,456 --> 00:26:16,096 Speaker 1: kept saying that. You never know. You just never know 560 00:26:16,136 --> 00:26:17,056 Speaker 1: what's going to upset people. 561 00:26:18,176 --> 00:26:20,816 Speaker 2: When we return, I turn the tables on Reese and 562 00:26:20,956 --> 00:26:23,386 Speaker 2: ask her about portraying real people in the movies. 563 00:26:33,286 --> 00:26:35,036 Speaker 1: I'm back with Reese Witherspoon in Nashville. 564 00:26:37,156 --> 00:26:38,936 Speaker 2: I've got to ask you a question. This has been 565 00:26:38,996 --> 00:26:43,296 Speaker 2: way too much monologue. Do we have any I know, 566 00:26:43,356 --> 00:26:46,856 Speaker 2: I know, I know. But this problem, your problem, when 567 00:26:46,876 --> 00:26:50,146 Speaker 2: you're playing someone real, how do you deal with it? 568 00:26:50,696 --> 00:26:53,516 Speaker 1: How do you come out the other end and look 569 00:26:53,556 --> 00:26:54,156 Speaker 1: them in the eye? 570 00:26:54,496 --> 00:26:57,976 Speaker 6: Well, I've had two different situations where I had people 571 00:26:58,016 --> 00:27:00,476 Speaker 6: who were really, really, really happy about it, in the 572 00:27:00,496 --> 00:27:03,896 Speaker 6: case of Cheryl Strayed and the movie Wild. And Cheryl 573 00:27:03,936 --> 00:27:06,996 Speaker 6: was part of that film, and she was there every day, 574 00:27:07,056 --> 00:27:08,436 Speaker 6: and we shot very close to her home. 575 00:27:08,716 --> 00:27:10,446 Speaker 4: But then I also did. 576 00:27:11,706 --> 00:27:14,386 Speaker 6: a movie, Walk the Line, about Johnny Cash. 577 00:27:14,406 --> 00:27:16,086 Speaker 1: Yeah, we know. 578 00:27:16,486 --> 00:27:19,746 Speaker 5: And June Carter Cash. It was a while ago. But 579 00:27:19,766 --> 00:27:21,096 Speaker 5: the family wasn't happy about it. 580 00:27:21,616 --> 00:27:21,716 Speaker 3: Oh. 581 00:27:21,816 --> 00:27:23,266 Speaker 4: They really weren't happy about it. 582 00:27:23,356 --> 00:27:28,236 Speaker 5: And it was really a tough situation, too, because. 583 00:27:30,116 --> 00:27:31,176 Speaker 4: You have a lot of feelings. 584 00:27:31,196 --> 00:27:35,296 Speaker 6: Like, you want to represent people in a truthful way, right, 585 00:27:35,336 --> 00:27:38,316 Speaker 6: and not make them look different than how they are. 586 00:27:38,356 --> 00:27:40,996 Speaker 6: But also, their children have a right to to feel 587 00:27:41,076 --> 00:27:42,316 Speaker 6: how they feel about their. 588 00:27:42,216 --> 00:27:43,116 Speaker 4: Parents' memories. 589 00:27:43,756 --> 00:27:46,196 Speaker 5: So there's a legacy piece, too, that I think is. 590 00:27:46,456 --> 00:27:50,016 Speaker 2: Was the unhappiness directed at you and your performance or 591 00:27:50,076 --> 00:27:51,116 Speaker 2: the film more generally? 592 00:27:51,296 --> 00:27:55,426 Speaker 6: The film in general and Johnny Cash's abuse of his 593 00:27:55,486 --> 00:27:56,146 Speaker 6: first wife. 594 00:27:56,206 --> 00:27:57,506 Speaker 4: Right. And I think that. 595 00:27:57,786 --> 00:27:59,606 Speaker 1: You couldn't do anything about that in your performance. 596 00:28:00,426 --> 00:28:03,426 Speaker 6: Not in my performance, but, you know, maybe that's stuff 597 00:28:03,466 --> 00:28:05,086 Speaker 6: that people don't really want in a movie. 598 00:28:05,306 --> 00:28:05,546 Speaker 3: Right. 599 00:28:05,666 --> 00:28:08,356 Speaker 5: You know, played by Hollywood actors. I understand that side 600 00:28:08,376 --> 00:28:08,856 Speaker 5: of it, too. 601 00:28:08,956 --> 00:28:09,136 Speaker 6: Right. 602 00:28:09,576 --> 00:28:12,536 Speaker 4: So it's complicated when you're dealing with real people. But 603 00:28:12,616 --> 00:28:12,996 Speaker 4: I think. 604 00:28:13,536 --> 00:28:17,036 Speaker 1: It's incredibly complicated. I've watched my character's lives be turned 605 00:28:17,096 --> 00:28:17,516 Speaker 1: upside down. 606 00:28:17,536 --> 00:28:19,816 Speaker 5: You just keep doing it over and over again. 607 00:28:19,836 --> 00:28:22,666 Speaker 6: But you and I were talking about backstage, the big short, 608 00:28:22,706 --> 00:28:24,866 Speaker 6: which I know a lot of people are big fans 609 00:28:24,886 --> 00:28:28,846 Speaker 6: of that movie and the book. I think I'm so 610 00:28:29,026 --> 00:28:35,426 Speaker 6: fascinated how you found these characters that had been almost Oracle-esque, 611 00:28:36,046 --> 00:28:36,926 Speaker 6: understanding that. 612 00:28:39,046 --> 00:28:40,586 Speaker 4: Stock market was going to collapse. 613 00:28:40,706 --> 00:28:44,976 Speaker 6: The subprime mortgage bond market was going to collapse. 614 00:28:45,556 --> 00:28:48,116 Speaker 5: I know you started out in Wall Street. 615 00:28:48,676 --> 00:28:49,956 Speaker 1: I did for three years. 616 00:28:50,036 --> 00:28:52,196 Speaker 6: Is that how you had enough connections to start to 617 00:28:52,296 --> 00:28:56,356 Speaker 6: understand that financial collapse in 2008? 618 00:28:56,356 --> 00:28:57,996 Speaker 1: That's funny you ask. That's a good question. 619 00:28:58,016 --> 00:29:00,836 Speaker 2: That's a really good question, how I was able to 620 00:29:00,886 --> 00:29:03,946 Speaker 2: tell that story. Because my first book, Liar's Poker, it 621 00:29:04,006 --> 00:29:06,006 Speaker 2: blew up the bridge to Wall Street for me. 622 00:29:06,046 --> 00:29:10,246 Speaker 1: I mean, I thought it was never... It infuriated people. 623 00:29:10,426 --> 00:29:12,306 Speaker 5: And you said it also inspired a lot of people 624 00:29:12,326 --> 00:29:13,046 Speaker 5: to want to. 625 00:29:13,106 --> 00:29:14,716 Speaker 1: I mean, it had a lot of odd effects. 626 00:29:14,816 --> 00:29:16,636 Speaker 2: But I just thought, when I wrote it, I didn't 627 00:29:16,656 --> 00:29:18,036 Speaker 2: know I was going to be... I knew I wanted 628 00:29:18,056 --> 00:29:18,516 Speaker 2: to be a writer. 629 00:29:18,976 --> 00:29:21,196 Speaker 1: I didn't know. Wall Street, the job landed on my lap. 630 00:29:21,216 --> 00:29:22,996 Speaker 2: And that was just an odd thing that the first 631 00:29:23,036 --> 00:29:24,336 Speaker 2: book happened to be about Wall Street. 632 00:29:24,676 --> 00:29:26,236 Speaker 1: But I thought, well, I'm done with this. I threw 633 00:29:26,256 --> 00:29:27,846 Speaker 1: the match over my shoulder and it was done. It 634 00:29:28,106 --> 00:29:28,476 Speaker 1: blew up. 635 00:29:28,786 --> 00:29:31,126 Speaker 2: And I was never going to be welcomed back. And 636 00:29:31,146 --> 00:29:33,446 Speaker 2: I never thought that the story would never be so 637 00:29:33,466 --> 00:29:35,206 Speaker 2: good again. So I wouldn't have access and it wouldn't 638 00:29:35,226 --> 00:29:37,716 Speaker 2: be that good a story. What happened was with the 639 00:29:37,736 --> 00:29:43,496 Speaker 2: big short, well, Bear Stearns collapses, Lehman Brothers collapses, the 640 00:29:43,516 --> 00:29:44,536 Speaker 2: financial crisis happens. 641 00:29:44,726 --> 00:29:47,066 Speaker 1: And it's clear that the whole story is a story 642 00:29:49,696 --> 00:29:52,436 Speaker 1: a single bet, the bet on the subprime mortgage market. 643 00:29:52,516 --> 00:29:55,356 Speaker 2: And that on one side you had the dumb money, 644 00:29:55,436 --> 00:29:57,316 Speaker 2: and the dumb money was weirdly. 645 00:29:57,156 --> 00:29:58,476 Speaker 1: The big Wall Street firms. 646 00:29:59,156 --> 00:30:04,486 Speaker 2: And the question, my initial question was, when I was there, 647 00:30:04,516 --> 00:30:06,766 Speaker 2: that was a smart money. If they were making a 648 00:30:06,806 --> 00:30:09,736 Speaker 2: bet for themselves, you didn't want to be on the 649 00:30:09,816 --> 00:30:10,876 Speaker 2: other side of that bet. 650 00:30:11,436 --> 00:30:13,056 Speaker 1: You were sure to be screwed in some way. 651 00:30:13,616 --> 00:30:15,816 Speaker 2: And that all of a sudden, the smart thing to 652 00:30:15,896 --> 00:30:17,886 Speaker 2: be doing was taking the other side of the big 653 00:30:17,906 --> 00:30:18,996 Speaker 2: Wall Street firm's bet. 654 00:30:19,606 --> 00:30:20,426 Speaker 1: That was odd. 655 00:30:20,986 --> 00:30:23,586 Speaker 2: And so the way that book starts is I didn't 656 00:30:23,606 --> 00:30:25,026 Speaker 2: think I was going to be allowed to tell a story. 657 00:30:25,846 --> 00:30:27,486 Speaker 2: I needed to get into the Wall Street firms to 658 00:30:27,526 --> 00:30:29,806 Speaker 2: figure out what had happened. So I started just making 659 00:30:29,846 --> 00:30:32,566 Speaker 2: some calls. I got names of people. For example, there 660 00:30:32,586 --> 00:30:35,636 Speaker 2: was a guy at Morgan Stanley who lost $ 10 billion 661 00:30:35,696 --> 00:30:38,656 Speaker 2: on a single trade. And I got to him and 662 00:30:38,716 --> 00:30:41,236 Speaker 2: to the people around him. And I had a similar 663 00:30:41,326 --> 00:30:43,486 Speaker 2: experience at Merrill Lynch and Citigroup and all the other places. 664 00:30:43,506 --> 00:30:45,846 Speaker 2: And it would always be a beer. I'll meet you 665 00:30:45,866 --> 00:30:47,966 Speaker 2: for a beer, which surprised me. I was surprised they 666 00:30:48,006 --> 00:30:53,086 Speaker 2: even returned the call. And what they would all say 667 00:30:53,716 --> 00:30:55,756 Speaker 2: when I sat down with them, they all said two things. 668 00:30:56,116 --> 00:31:01,416 Speaker 2: They all said, one, I didn't do anything wrong. That 669 00:31:01,616 --> 00:31:04,986 Speaker 2: everybody made this bet. And so you can't really, I mean, 670 00:31:05,016 --> 00:31:07,416 Speaker 2: it was just the bet everybody made. So the fact 671 00:31:07,456 --> 00:31:09,966 Speaker 2: that there was a feeling of safety in numbers kind 672 00:31:09,986 --> 00:31:12,086 Speaker 2: of thing going on. But the other thing they said was, 673 00:31:12,826 --> 00:31:14,446 Speaker 2: the only reason I'm talking to you, it was all 674 00:31:14,546 --> 00:31:16,446 Speaker 2: on background, the only reason I'm having this beer with 675 00:31:16,506 --> 00:31:18,786 Speaker 2: you is your book, Liar's Poker, is the reason I 676 00:31:18,826 --> 00:31:22,046 Speaker 2: got into the business. And after the fourth time I 677 00:31:22,086 --> 00:31:24,306 Speaker 2: heard this, I thought, Jesus Christ, I created this crisis. 678 00:31:26,046 --> 00:31:29,936 Speaker 2: I led all these people who should not be trading 679 00:31:30,436 --> 00:31:33,576 Speaker 2: into the market, and they're doing stupid things now. And 680 00:31:33,976 --> 00:31:37,176 Speaker 2: they kind of let me in. But the main character is, 681 00:31:37,176 --> 00:31:38,236 Speaker 2: of course, the people who are on the right side 682 00:31:38,256 --> 00:31:41,196 Speaker 2: of the bet. And that was easy. Once you found 683 00:31:41,256 --> 00:31:43,036 Speaker 2: where they were making the bet, there was one trader 684 00:31:43,096 --> 00:31:44,876 Speaker 2: on Wall Street who was kind of running the casino. 685 00:31:45,426 --> 00:31:48,086 Speaker 2: And he kind of like just showed me everybody who 686 00:31:48,146 --> 00:31:50,466 Speaker 2: had made the bet in a big way, like blockers. 687 00:31:50,526 --> 00:31:53,166 Speaker 1: I just did a casting search. I went and interviewed 688 00:31:53,306 --> 00:31:53,706 Speaker 1: all of them. 689 00:31:53,726 --> 00:31:57,526 Speaker 2: And I became clear that what was going on was 690 00:31:57,786 --> 00:31:59,876 Speaker 2: there were different ways to get to the right answer. 691 00:31:59,936 --> 00:32:01,336 Speaker 1: These were the people who got to the right answer. 692 00:32:02,016 --> 00:32:04,916 Speaker 1: And that you could kind of classify them. Michael Barrett, well, 693 00:32:05,016 --> 00:32:05,296 Speaker 1: he was. 694 00:32:06,056 --> 00:32:07,856 Speaker 2: He was the most important character because he was the 695 00:32:07,936 --> 00:32:09,376 Speaker 2: one who figured it out first. 696 00:32:09,436 --> 00:32:09,696 Speaker 3: Yeah. 697 00:32:10,136 --> 00:32:14,186 Speaker 1: And he figured it out too early. So movies. You know, 698 00:32:14,206 --> 00:32:15,016 Speaker 1: it's Michael. 699 00:32:15,186 --> 00:32:17,326 Speaker 5: Was he excited that Christian Bale got to play him 700 00:32:17,366 --> 00:32:17,946 Speaker 5: in a movie? 701 00:32:18,266 --> 00:32:20,186 Speaker 4: I mean, that's pretty exciting. 702 00:32:20,486 --> 00:32:25,186 Speaker 1: So this business, what you people do is diabolical. It's. No, no. 703 00:32:25,386 --> 00:32:28,666 Speaker 1: You're in this business with me. No, hold on, hold on. 704 00:32:28,726 --> 00:32:30,966 Speaker 2: What you people do is diabolical because I have now 705 00:32:31,046 --> 00:32:33,906 Speaker 2: watched Brad Pitt, Sandra Bullock, all these people in the 706 00:32:33,946 --> 00:32:37,946 Speaker 2: big short nail the people on this. I'm watching and 707 00:32:38,006 --> 00:32:40,886 Speaker 2: I'm thinking, oh my God, they've just basically replicated him. 708 00:32:41,486 --> 00:32:43,726 Speaker 1: And Michael Burry is not easy to replicate. 709 00:32:44,366 --> 00:32:46,606 Speaker 6: I actually did a movie with Christian Bale when I 710 00:32:46,646 --> 00:32:47,726 Speaker 6: was 20 years old. 711 00:32:48,446 --> 00:32:49,986 Speaker 4: It was called American Psycho. 712 00:32:50,646 --> 00:32:51,106 Speaker 1: Oh God. 713 00:32:51,546 --> 00:32:54,406 Speaker 4: And you guys... I have. 714 00:32:54,466 --> 00:32:57,806 Speaker 6: Never in my whole history of my career seen an 715 00:32:57,966 --> 00:33:03,076 Speaker 6: actor as committed as Christian Bale in American Psycho. 716 00:33:03,636 --> 00:33:05,076 Speaker 5: I was acting. 717 00:33:06,396 --> 00:33:08,156 Speaker 2: He was in. 718 00:33:08,416 --> 00:33:11,096 Speaker 6: Scenes with me, and I would try to have conversations 719 00:33:11,136 --> 00:33:14,306 Speaker 6: between takes, and there was no conversation to be had. 720 00:33:14,366 --> 00:33:16,206 Speaker 4: It was just nothing. 721 00:33:16,746 --> 00:33:19,686 Speaker 6: And he was so deeply in character and deeply committed. 722 00:33:19,706 --> 00:33:22,736 Speaker 6: I mean, he's really a magician. But he has to disappear. 723 00:33:22,766 --> 00:33:25,036 Speaker 6: He has to create a whole new thing to disappear. 724 00:33:25,116 --> 00:33:28,656 Speaker 6: But it's incredible, his concentration, his focus. But I was 725 00:33:28,676 --> 00:33:30,796 Speaker 6: really interested, too, because I went back and watched Big 726 00:33:30,816 --> 00:33:33,096 Speaker 6: Short before we were having this conversation, and the two 727 00:33:33,256 --> 00:33:34,796 Speaker 6: other main characters. 728 00:33:34,676 --> 00:33:35,336 Speaker 1: Wanted their name. 729 00:33:36,476 --> 00:33:36,946 Speaker 5: Not Brad Pitt. 730 00:33:36,966 --> 00:33:37,756 Speaker 4: Not Brad Pitt. 731 00:33:37,776 --> 00:33:41,766 Speaker 6: But Steve Carell's character and then Ryan Gosling's character, one 732 00:33:41,786 --> 00:33:42,626 Speaker 6: of their names changed. 733 00:33:43,726 --> 00:33:44,046 Speaker 1: Yes. 734 00:33:44,306 --> 00:33:48,306 Speaker 2: And then I've spent the last 10 years explaining to everybody, 735 00:33:48,326 --> 00:33:48,706 Speaker 2: that's them. 736 00:33:49,306 --> 00:33:51,496 Speaker 1: They had a view. They had a view, the characters 737 00:33:51,556 --> 00:33:52,376 Speaker 1: in the big short. 738 00:33:56,376 --> 00:33:59,736 Speaker 2: A few of them, that the society might turn on them. 739 00:33:59,756 --> 00:34:01,956 Speaker 2: There would be a moment where everybody said, wait, those 740 00:34:01,976 --> 00:34:03,656 Speaker 2: guys made a fortune out of the collapse of the 741 00:34:03,716 --> 00:34:05,156 Speaker 2: society or the collapse of Wall Street. 742 00:34:05,436 --> 00:34:08,856 Speaker 1: That's evil. And they were afraid of that. But when 743 00:34:08,896 --> 00:34:10,296 Speaker 1: the movie came out, they were like, no, no, no. 744 00:34:10,356 --> 00:34:14,116 Speaker 1: Could you put my name back on there? It doesn't 745 00:34:14,136 --> 00:34:14,376 Speaker 1: really work. 746 00:34:14,396 --> 00:34:15,476 Speaker 5: No, I am Ryan Gosling. 747 00:34:15,596 --> 00:34:16,456 Speaker 1: I am Ryan Gosling. 748 00:34:16,476 --> 00:34:17,516 Speaker 4: Ryan Gosling is me. 749 00:34:17,576 --> 00:34:19,756 Speaker 5: I know they've changed the names, but it's really me. 750 00:34:19,876 --> 00:34:24,796 Speaker 2: And so there is this kind of like, contortion they're 751 00:34:24,836 --> 00:34:27,146 Speaker 2: now in where like, you know, that is me. And 752 00:34:27,336 --> 00:34:30,346 Speaker 2: so writing a book about someone has a certain effect. 753 00:34:30,746 --> 00:34:32,026 Speaker 2: When a movie gets made about. 754 00:34:31,866 --> 00:34:33,126 Speaker 1: You, your life changes. 755 00:34:33,646 --> 00:34:36,366 Speaker 2: It is so hard to not be the person people 756 00:34:36,426 --> 00:34:39,946 Speaker 2: expect you to be. It takes great inner strength. And 757 00:34:40,006 --> 00:34:42,206 Speaker 2: some people can do it, but most people can't. And 758 00:34:42,286 --> 00:34:45,146 Speaker 2: when the movie comes out, they start to become the character. 759 00:34:45,206 --> 00:34:49,956 Speaker 2: The person who has actually defied the movies is Billy Bean. 760 00:34:50,586 --> 00:34:51,126 Speaker 1: Billy Bean. 761 00:34:51,296 --> 00:34:54,206 Speaker 2: And I can remember when Can we close on a 762 00:34:54,226 --> 00:34:58,296 Speaker 2: Billy Bean story? So Billy Bean, after he got stopped 763 00:34:58,316 --> 00:35:00,136 Speaker 2: being angry at me about the book and the book 764 00:35:00,276 --> 00:35:01,976 Speaker 2: did create this huge. 765 00:35:01,756 --> 00:35:04,296 Speaker 1: Storm in his life, like all baseball was angry at him. 766 00:35:04,976 --> 00:35:07,736 Speaker 2: And he was incredibly brave. He could have just thrown 767 00:35:07,776 --> 00:35:09,696 Speaker 2: me under a bus and he didn't do it. And 768 00:35:09,736 --> 00:35:11,536 Speaker 2: I saw his character at work all over again. And 769 00:35:11,556 --> 00:35:13,336 Speaker 2: I find it so moving. I find so moving when 770 00:35:13,356 --> 00:35:16,206 Speaker 2: people when the easy thing is not to fight and 771 00:35:16,226 --> 00:35:17,996 Speaker 2: you fight. Cause you know, it's the right thing to do. 772 00:35:18,586 --> 00:35:20,026 Speaker 2: And it's like, I want to be in a foxhole 773 00:35:20,046 --> 00:35:22,806 Speaker 2: with that person. And Billy Bean is that guy. And 774 00:35:23,126 --> 00:35:26,946 Speaker 2: so he got over it. He didn't need the attention. 775 00:35:26,986 --> 00:35:29,906 Speaker 2: He'd been a professional athlete. He's like the most handsome 776 00:35:29,946 --> 00:35:33,206 Speaker 2: man in the world. He doesn't need any attention and 777 00:35:33,326 --> 00:35:36,026 Speaker 2: didn't want it. The book just happens. It's an accident 778 00:35:36,066 --> 00:35:38,526 Speaker 2: in his life. We're moving on. Then he calls me. 779 00:35:38,546 --> 00:35:41,086 Speaker 2: He says, I want you to know that Sony pictures 780 00:35:41,106 --> 00:35:42,586 Speaker 2: just called me and asked to buy my life rights. 781 00:35:42,986 --> 00:35:44,406 Speaker 2: I see you're selling the movie rights. He says, I 782 00:35:44,406 --> 00:35:45,626 Speaker 2: just want to, you know, I'm not gonna let it happen. 783 00:35:45,756 --> 00:35:48,556 Speaker 2: It's not gonna be a movie. And I said, this 784 00:35:48,616 --> 00:35:50,896 Speaker 2: is before any book of mine had been made. And 785 00:35:50,936 --> 00:35:52,556 Speaker 2: I said, Billy, you're thinking about it the wrong way. 786 00:35:52,936 --> 00:35:54,796 Speaker 2: I said, they never make the movie. They just give 787 00:35:54,836 --> 00:35:58,436 Speaker 2: you some money, say how excited they are. Everybody's enthusiastic 788 00:35:58,456 --> 00:36:00,096 Speaker 2: for six months. And then they move on to the 789 00:36:00,136 --> 00:36:02,106 Speaker 2: next shiny object and it never gets made. And I 790 00:36:02,126 --> 00:36:03,926 Speaker 2: gave him a list of all the money I'd made 791 00:36:04,326 --> 00:36:05,986 Speaker 2: selling things to the movies that had never been made. 792 00:36:06,006 --> 00:36:07,606 Speaker 2: And it was like a dozen things at that point. 793 00:36:07,926 --> 00:36:10,526 Speaker 2: And he was, and Billy was like money. And so 794 00:36:11,006 --> 00:36:13,566 Speaker 2: one day he calls me up and he says, you bastard. 795 00:36:15,446 --> 00:36:18,446 Speaker 2: He said, Brad Pitt just called me and he wants 796 00:36:18,486 --> 00:36:20,206 Speaker 2: to come over to my house and my wife is 797 00:36:20,256 --> 00:36:22,876 Speaker 2: putting on makeup and the babysitter went home to get 798 00:36:22,916 --> 00:36:23,316 Speaker 2: a dress. 799 00:36:25,056 --> 00:36:27,436 Speaker 1: And he was, and so we had the whole, we 800 00:36:27,456 --> 00:36:30,656 Speaker 1: had the thing all over again of I'm angry at you. 801 00:36:30,996 --> 00:36:35,346 Speaker 2: And he was seriously, and so he refuses. I mean, 802 00:36:35,386 --> 00:36:38,226 Speaker 2: making it awkward for everybody. He doesn't get in the way, 803 00:36:38,626 --> 00:36:41,346 Speaker 2: but he refuses to visit the set. He refuses to 804 00:36:41,386 --> 00:36:43,696 Speaker 2: be helpful in any way. They're filming in the Oakland 805 00:36:43,716 --> 00:36:46,636 Speaker 2: Coliseum where his office is and he's refusing to show up. 806 00:36:47,236 --> 00:36:49,296 Speaker 2: And I get a call from the producer saying he 807 00:36:49,636 --> 00:36:51,596 Speaker 2: is making everybody extremely uncomfortable. 808 00:36:51,976 --> 00:36:54,316 Speaker 1: Could you just call him and get him down? They 809 00:36:54,356 --> 00:36:56,076 Speaker 1: were filming scenes. It was a night game. 810 00:36:56,516 --> 00:36:59,636 Speaker 2: They had 8,000 extras. They were recreating this game that's 811 00:36:59,696 --> 00:37:01,976 Speaker 2: towards the end of the book. And he said, there'll 812 00:37:02,006 --> 00:37:02,506 Speaker 2: be chaos. 813 00:37:02,546 --> 00:37:03,106 Speaker 1: Just bring him down. 814 00:37:03,146 --> 00:37:05,526 Speaker 2: Let everybody see him for a bit and everybody will 815 00:37:05,546 --> 00:37:09,036 Speaker 2: be fine. So I call him and he said, You're 816 00:37:09,056 --> 00:37:09,516 Speaker 2: going to be there? 817 00:37:09,536 --> 00:37:10,336 Speaker 1: I said, yeah, I'll be there. 818 00:37:10,376 --> 00:37:11,836 Speaker 2: He says, if you're going to be there, I'll come 819 00:37:11,856 --> 00:37:14,716 Speaker 2: down and I'll hang for like 20 minutes. But he says, 820 00:37:14,836 --> 00:37:16,416 Speaker 2: I do not want to seem like I'm into this. 821 00:37:16,436 --> 00:37:17,656 Speaker 2: This is kind of his attitude. 822 00:37:18,136 --> 00:37:20,416 Speaker 1: And so I said, OK. So I'm there. 823 00:37:21,576 --> 00:37:24,616 Speaker 2: Brad and Angelina are on the field. Everything's going on. 824 00:37:24,616 --> 00:37:25,776 Speaker 2: 8,000 people are being moved from one side of the 825 00:37:25,796 --> 00:37:28,336 Speaker 2: stadium to the other. There are two replicas. They're replicas 826 00:37:28,396 --> 00:37:30,206 Speaker 2: of the Kansas City Royals and the Oakland A's. They 827 00:37:30,226 --> 00:37:33,136 Speaker 2: look more like the players than the players themselves. It's 828 00:37:33,156 --> 00:37:34,056 Speaker 2: a wild scene. 829 00:37:34,376 --> 00:37:37,296 Speaker 1: And Billy walks out, could not care less, walks up 830 00:37:37,336 --> 00:37:40,636 Speaker 1: to me. All right, I'm here. You happy? And a 831 00:37:40,696 --> 00:37:42,636 Speaker 1: young production assistant comes running over. 832 00:37:42,676 --> 00:37:45,516 Speaker 2: He's got the headgear and he's got a binder and 833 00:37:45,536 --> 00:37:46,536 Speaker 2: there's a book in the binder. 834 00:37:47,036 --> 00:37:49,146 Speaker 1: The book is inside his binder. And he comes, Mr. 835 00:37:49,186 --> 00:37:50,926 Speaker 2: Bean, thank you so much for coming to this ad. 836 00:37:51,186 --> 00:37:52,846 Speaker 2: I've been waiting for the six weeks for you to 837 00:37:52,886 --> 00:37:55,746 Speaker 2: do this. You are my hero. Your book changed my life. 838 00:37:56,326 --> 00:37:58,106 Speaker 2: And he looks at them. He goes like, it's not 839 00:37:58,126 --> 00:37:59,446 Speaker 2: my book. Like he read the book. 840 00:37:59,726 --> 00:38:02,146 Speaker 1: And he says, no, no, Mr. Bean, this is your book. 841 00:38:02,346 --> 00:38:04,366 Speaker 2: And Would you just please sign it for me? 842 00:38:05,106 --> 00:38:06,186 Speaker 1: And Billy's like, okay. 843 00:38:06,306 --> 00:38:09,746 Speaker 2: So it turns out there were two people who played 844 00:38:09,766 --> 00:38:12,336 Speaker 2: Major League Baseball named Billy Bean. And they actually were 845 00:38:12,356 --> 00:38:13,856 Speaker 2: played at the same time. And they played in the 846 00:38:13,876 --> 00:38:16,476 Speaker 2: same outfields. They played for the Twins and the Tigers together. 847 00:38:16,876 --> 00:38:19,096 Speaker 2: And the other Billy Bean, spelled the name slightly differently, 848 00:38:19,956 --> 00:38:21,716 Speaker 2: came out of the closet at the end of his 849 00:38:21,836 --> 00:38:24,176 Speaker 2: career and wrote a book. It was called like Hitting 850 00:38:24,196 --> 00:38:29,656 Speaker 2: from the Other Side of the Plate or whatever. And 851 00:38:29,816 --> 00:38:32,136 Speaker 2: this kid goes like this and it's the gay Billy 852 00:38:32,176 --> 00:38:37,426 Speaker 2: Beans book. And so there is nothing, there's nothing, there's 853 00:38:37,466 --> 00:38:38,346 Speaker 2: no right answer here. 854 00:38:38,606 --> 00:38:40,686 Speaker 1: There's nothing Billy Bean can say, right? 855 00:38:41,106 --> 00:38:44,626 Speaker 2: And so he's looking there, he's going, his face is 856 00:38:44,666 --> 00:38:47,826 Speaker 2: all contorted. And I look over and in the dugout, 857 00:38:48,206 --> 00:38:49,816 Speaker 2: Brad Pitt is rolling around laughing. 858 00:38:50,106 --> 00:38:51,336 Speaker 1: He set the whole thing up. 859 00:38:53,576 --> 00:38:58,516 Speaker 2: He said, including calling me to say everybody's being made uncomfortable. 860 00:38:57,996 --> 00:39:01,266 Speaker 1: That he's not here. Yes. Just to torture the real 861 00:39:01,286 --> 00:39:01,786 Speaker 1: Billy Bean. 862 00:39:01,926 --> 00:39:02,646 Speaker 4: Oh, my God. 863 00:39:02,666 --> 00:39:07,806 Speaker 5: That's a great story. Oh, my God. I think we're 864 00:39:07,826 --> 00:39:10,266 Speaker 5: done with Michael. I just want to say thank you. 865 00:39:10,286 --> 00:39:11,706 Speaker 1: This book is amazing. 866 00:39:11,776 --> 00:39:14,396 Speaker 5: I hope everybody loves it. And thank you for coming 867 00:39:14,436 --> 00:39:16,336 Speaker 5: here to Nashville. We love having you. 868 00:39:24,886 --> 00:39:27,506 Speaker 1: Thank you so much to Reese Witherspoon and Ann Patchett. 869 00:39:27,906 --> 00:39:30,806 Speaker 2: Who has a fantastic bookstore in Nashville, by the way, 870 00:39:30,886 --> 00:39:31,686 Speaker 2: Parnassus Books. 871 00:39:32,446 --> 00:39:33,046 Speaker 1: Great crowd. 872 00:39:33,706 --> 00:39:35,226 Speaker 2: I'll be back here next week with more from the 873 00:39:35,256 --> 00:39:37,496 Speaker 2: media side of my book tour, so don't go anywhere. 874 00:39:40,216 --> 00:39:43,496 Speaker 2: Against the Rules is hosted by me, Michael Lewis. It's 875 00:39:43,536 --> 00:39:47,166 Speaker 2: produced by Lydia Jean Cott. Our editor is Julia Barton. 876 00:39:48,146 --> 00:39:51,846 Speaker 2: Our theme was composed by Nick Brattel. And our engineer 877 00:39:51,946 --> 00:39:57,046 Speaker 2: is Jake Gorski. Our executive producer is Jacob Smith. Special 878 00:39:57,086 --> 00:40:02,206 Speaker 2: thanks to Eric Sandler, Morgan Ratner, Kira Posey, Jordan McMillan, 879 00:40:02,786 --> 00:40:09,556 Speaker 2: Owen Miller, and Sarah Bruguere. Also, to Nicole Optenbosch, Jasmine Faustino, 880 00:40:09,936 --> 00:40:12,556 Speaker 2: Pamela Lawrence, and the rest of the Pushkin Audiobooks team. 881 00:40:13,776 --> 00:40:14,276 Speaker 1: You can get. 882 00:40:14,196 --> 00:40:20,796 Speaker 2: Blockers now at blockers.fm or wherever audiobooks are sold. Against 883 00:40:20,836 --> 00:40:24,426 Speaker 2: the Rules is a production of Pushkin Industries. To find 884 00:40:24,466 --> 00:40:28,566 Speaker 2: more Pushkin podcasts, listen on the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcasts, 885 00:40:29,166 --> 00:40:32,066 Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to podcasts. And if you'd like 886 00:40:32,106 --> 00:40:36,546 Speaker 2: to listen ad-free and learn about other exclusive offerings, don't 887 00:40:36,626 --> 00:40:39,316 Speaker 2: forget to sign up for a Pushkin Plus subscription at 888 00:40:39,416 --> 00:40:43,396 Speaker 2: pushkin.fm slash plus or on our Apple show page.