1 00:00:04,160 --> 00:00:05,880 Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet as a production 2 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:13,000 Speaker 1: of My Heart Radio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd 3 00:00:13,160 --> 00:00:14,840 Speaker 1: and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet. 4 00:00:17,400 --> 00:00:19,840 Speaker 1: So today we are continuing our episode looking at the 5 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:23,239 Speaker 1: claim that Lena Dunham joked about sexually abusing her sibling 6 00:00:23,320 --> 00:00:26,440 Speaker 1: in her memoir Not That Kind of Girl. Quick trigger warning. 7 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:30,479 Speaker 1: We're talking about childhood, sexual abuse and sexual violence. And 8 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:32,600 Speaker 1: I am joined again by there Are No Girls on 9 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:36,000 Speaker 1: the Internet producer and chief science officer Mike. Mike, thanks 10 00:00:36,040 --> 00:00:39,120 Speaker 1: for being here, Thanks for having me back. So where 11 00:00:39,159 --> 00:00:41,400 Speaker 1: we last left off, we were talking about Lena Dunham, 12 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:44,920 Speaker 1: the sort of pop feminist culture of the Mids that 13 00:00:44,960 --> 00:00:49,080 Speaker 1: she really tapped into, and how the right wing website 14 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:52,800 Speaker 1: Truth Revolt really misrepresented what she wrote in her memoir 15 00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:54,880 Speaker 1: Not That Kind of Girl. Now, if you have not 16 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:57,560 Speaker 1: listened to that episode, you definitely should pause this and 17 00:00:57,640 --> 00:00:59,680 Speaker 1: go back and listen to that. But the two long 18 00:00:59,720 --> 00:01:02,080 Speaker 1: did It read is basically that actor and writer Lena 19 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:05,119 Speaker 1: Dunham wrote about things like putting pebbles and her little 20 00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:07,920 Speaker 1: siblings Regina when she was seven and her sibling was one, 21 00:01:08,240 --> 00:01:11,800 Speaker 1: and that the right wing website Truth Revolt misrepresented it, 22 00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:14,919 Speaker 1: saying that Lena described it happening when she was seventeen, 23 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:18,120 Speaker 1: not seven. Now in this episode, we're diving into what 24 00:01:18,160 --> 00:01:21,600 Speaker 1: she actually wrote the response, and why it all stuck 25 00:01:21,640 --> 00:01:24,640 Speaker 1: and what it all means. All right, bridget So getting 26 00:01:24,680 --> 00:01:28,880 Speaker 1: into part two. How did Lena Dunham respond to all this? So? 27 00:01:28,920 --> 00:01:31,600 Speaker 1: The day The Truth Revolt published their misleading article about 28 00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:36,119 Speaker 1: her memoir, Lena responded the following day, tweeting the right 29 00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:38,760 Speaker 1: wing news story that I molested my little sibling isn't 30 00:01:38,800 --> 00:01:42,640 Speaker 1: just laugh out loud, it's really fucking upsetting and disgusting. 31 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:45,440 Speaker 1: Her legal team sent a letter that was obtained by 32 00:01:45,480 --> 00:01:48,440 Speaker 1: The Hollywood Reporter to Bradford Thomas, the author of the 33 00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:51,400 Speaker 1: piece and The Truth Revolt, threatening to take legal action 34 00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:54,560 Speaker 1: if certain statements were not removed. The letter said, the 35 00:01:54,640 --> 00:01:57,880 Speaker 1: story is false, fabricated, and has the obvious tendency to 36 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:01,680 Speaker 1: subject my client to ridicule and into her occupation. Now, 37 00:02:01,720 --> 00:02:03,600 Speaker 1: the letter goes on to say that the peace caused 38 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:07,560 Speaker 1: quote actual damage to Lena's personal and professional reputation, which 39 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:10,920 Speaker 1: likely would be calculated in the millions of dollars punitive damages, 40 00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:12,919 Speaker 1: which can be a multiple of up to ten times 41 00:02:12,919 --> 00:02:16,839 Speaker 1: the actual damages and injunctive relief. The letter also says 42 00:02:16,880 --> 00:02:20,440 Speaker 1: that the Truth Revolt story contains quote outright falsified statements 43 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:22,960 Speaker 1: that are attributed to Lena and her book. The statements 44 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:25,800 Speaker 1: do not appear anywhere in the book, thus showing intent 45 00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:29,079 Speaker 1: to harm, knowing falsity as well as reckless disregard for 46 00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:32,400 Speaker 1: the truth, any one of which meets the malice requirement. 47 00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:35,120 Speaker 1: Her attorney, Charles Harder wrote in his letter to Truth 48 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:39,639 Speaker 1: Revolt Now Ben Shapiro, on behalf of Truth Revolt responded, 49 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:43,680 Speaker 1: he said, we refuse to withdraw our story and apologize 50 00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:45,960 Speaker 1: for running it, because quoting a woman's book does not 51 00:02:46,040 --> 00:02:49,280 Speaker 1: constitute a false story, even if she is a prominent 52 00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:52,440 Speaker 1: actress and left wing activist. Lena Dunham might not like 53 00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:55,400 Speaker 1: our interpretation of her book, but unfortunately for her and 54 00:02:55,440 --> 00:02:58,320 Speaker 1: her attorneys, she wrote that book and the First Amendment 55 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:01,280 Speaker 1: covers a good deal of material which she may not like. 56 00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:04,920 Speaker 1: And I don't know. I just find Ben Shapiro and 57 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:08,800 Speaker 1: Truth Revolts response to be so wild because Truth Revolt 58 00:03:08,919 --> 00:03:12,040 Speaker 1: itself admitted that it was a typo, saying that she 59 00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:14,639 Speaker 1: was seventeen and not seven. They said it was a typo, 60 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:17,920 Speaker 1: and so by definition what they printed was not correct 61 00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:20,919 Speaker 1: and was a false story. I feel like Ben Shapiro's 62 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:24,440 Speaker 1: kind of, you know, popped up response really flies in 63 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:27,519 Speaker 1: the face of like what the website actually said, which 64 00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:30,280 Speaker 1: was that they printed something that was not correct. Yeah, 65 00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:33,800 Speaker 1: and that's not like I wouldn't call that a typo 66 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:38,320 Speaker 1: even if it was unintentional, which seems pretty unlikely, but 67 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:40,960 Speaker 1: who knows, you know, maybe it was. But even so, 68 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:45,680 Speaker 1: it's like, so it so changes the character and the 69 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:50,040 Speaker 1: nature of the story that it's beyond a typo. It's 70 00:03:50,080 --> 00:03:55,680 Speaker 1: clearly creating a false impression. That's absolutely true, and for 71 00:03:55,760 --> 00:03:59,280 Speaker 1: him to not even acknowledge that in part of his apology, 72 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:02,520 Speaker 1: it just makes me wonder, you know what, Oh, he 73 00:04:02,520 --> 00:04:06,320 Speaker 1: didn't apologize excuse me yet, So not an apology actually 74 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:11,520 Speaker 1: just like a continued attack. Yeah. Great, kind of kind 75 00:04:11,520 --> 00:04:14,160 Speaker 1: of guy revealing with your Yeah, I mean, I agree 76 00:04:14,200 --> 00:04:17,480 Speaker 1: with you. I I'm not going to speculate whether this 77 00:04:17,520 --> 00:04:20,359 Speaker 1: was an intentional move or not. I will say I 78 00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:23,560 Speaker 1: have my suspicions, but they said it was a typo. 79 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:27,560 Speaker 1: I'm gonna take them at that word. You're so right 80 00:04:27,640 --> 00:04:29,800 Speaker 1: that even if that was just a type of somebody 81 00:04:29,800 --> 00:04:34,080 Speaker 1: to slipped the one in there, not acknowledging the way 82 00:04:34,120 --> 00:04:41,480 Speaker 1: that that really charges the what you've written, and like, really, yeah, 83 00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:43,520 Speaker 1: it's just it's just it's it's really stunning that he 84 00:04:43,560 --> 00:04:45,560 Speaker 1: won't even like, on the one hand, at the website 85 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:47,360 Speaker 1: admits it, but on the other hand it's like, but 86 00:04:47,440 --> 00:04:49,920 Speaker 1: we did nothing wrong. It's like, well, can't really be both, Yeah, 87 00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:53,880 Speaker 1: Like suble missions are more important than others. If, for example, 88 00:04:53,960 --> 00:04:59,520 Speaker 1: hypothetically somebody wrote somebody meant to write Ben Shapiro did 89 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:03,719 Speaker 1: not murder and eat his sister, but left out the 90 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:07,440 Speaker 1: word not, it would really change the meaning of the sentence. 91 00:05:07,760 --> 00:05:09,520 Speaker 1: It would just be a typo. And how dare you 92 00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:13,000 Speaker 1: insinuate that I apologize and say it with anything? But yeah, 93 00:05:13,279 --> 00:05:16,200 Speaker 1: it's just it's just a typo. And also he's a 94 00:05:16,279 --> 00:05:21,440 Speaker 1: right wing activist anyway, so that's somehow relevant exactly exactly. So, 95 00:05:21,480 --> 00:05:23,799 Speaker 1: an important question that I feel like it's really easy 96 00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:26,080 Speaker 1: to get lost in all this is whether or not 97 00:05:26,279 --> 00:05:29,080 Speaker 1: what Lena actually wrote in the book, not the way 98 00:05:29,120 --> 00:05:33,240 Speaker 1: that Truth Revolt initially spun, it actually describes sexual abuse 99 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:36,360 Speaker 1: or not. So first I believe that it is really 100 00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:40,160 Speaker 1: important to listen to and center Lena dunham siblings, Cyrus 101 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:43,640 Speaker 1: Grace and their voice in this conversation and really listen 102 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:46,000 Speaker 1: to what they have to say about what this experience 103 00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:49,359 Speaker 1: was like for them. Lena Dunham's sibling Cyrus Grace responded 104 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:52,960 Speaker 1: on Twitter saying head he normativity deems certain behavior is 105 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:56,440 Speaker 1: harmful and others normal. The state and media are always 106 00:05:56,480 --> 00:05:59,880 Speaker 1: invested in maintaining that. As a queer person, I'm committed 107 00:05:59,880 --> 00:06:03,240 Speaker 1: to people narrating their own experiences determining for themselves what 108 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:06,520 Speaker 1: has it has not been harmful. Today, like every other day, 109 00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:08,840 Speaker 1: there's a good day to think about how we police 110 00:06:08,839 --> 00:06:12,320 Speaker 1: the sexualities of young women, queer and trans people. And 111 00:06:12,360 --> 00:06:15,680 Speaker 1: so yeah, I think it's important to ground, you know, 112 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:19,560 Speaker 1: the conversation of like what actually happened in how Cyrus 113 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:21,640 Speaker 1: Grace interprets it, because it's there, it's you know, it's 114 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:24,640 Speaker 1: their experience, and I have to say, you know, I 115 00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:26,680 Speaker 1: want to be clear, I am no expert here. I 116 00:06:26,680 --> 00:06:29,039 Speaker 1: am not a psychologist, i am not a legal scholar. 117 00:06:29,320 --> 00:06:30,919 Speaker 1: I'm a little bit out of my depth when it 118 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:33,840 Speaker 1: comes to like whether or not something could be categorized 119 00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:36,880 Speaker 1: as sexual abuse. So I wanted to summarize some people 120 00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:39,799 Speaker 1: who actually know what they're talking about. So first, according 121 00:06:39,839 --> 00:06:43,160 Speaker 1: to the American Academy of Pediatrics, touching and looking at 122 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:46,960 Speaker 1: us siblings genitals is a quote normal common behavior in 123 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:51,000 Speaker 1: kids ages two to six. Vox, Slate, and Gawker all 124 00:06:51,040 --> 00:06:53,960 Speaker 1: spoke to experts who generally seem to conclude that little 125 00:06:54,080 --> 00:06:56,840 Speaker 1: children being curious about the bodies of their sibling is 126 00:06:56,880 --> 00:06:59,640 Speaker 1: a normal part of childhood development. Here's a couple of 127 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:03,839 Speaker 1: those ex birds. Gawker spoke to Sam Rubinstein, a psychotherapist 128 00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:07,000 Speaker 1: who specializes in childhood abuse, who said, I think you 129 00:07:07,040 --> 00:07:09,760 Speaker 1: have to take into consideration her age, her history, and 130 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:13,120 Speaker 1: the idea that age, unless you've gone through severe sexual trauma, 131 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:16,800 Speaker 1: there's really almost nothing sexual about it. The same exclamination 132 00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:19,160 Speaker 1: could be used for grabbing a dog's tail. It's the 133 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:22,640 Speaker 1: same type of coercion. Just because it's in the sexual venue, 134 00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:25,160 Speaker 1: people want to attack something to it, but it's almost 135 00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:28,880 Speaker 1: totally different. It's an innocent type thing. Slate spoke to 136 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:32,320 Speaker 1: rich Savin Williams, developmental psychologist and the director of the 137 00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:36,040 Speaker 1: Sex and Gender Lab at Cornell University, who said, quote, 138 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:38,760 Speaker 1: this is clearly not a case of abuse. Children have 139 00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:40,760 Speaker 1: been doing this stuff forever and ever and ever, and 140 00:07:40,760 --> 00:07:44,000 Speaker 1: they will do it forever and ever and ever. John V. Cafarroh, 141 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:46,680 Speaker 1: a professor at the California School of Professional Psychology and 142 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:49,480 Speaker 1: an expert on sibling abuse, wrote in a Washington Post 143 00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:53,880 Speaker 1: column quote, to be clear, sexual curiosity and children as normal. 144 00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:57,800 Speaker 1: All children explore their bodies and may engage in visual 145 00:07:57,840 --> 00:08:01,080 Speaker 1: and even manual exploration of a sibling at times. This 146 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:03,560 Speaker 1: is one of the ways that children discover sexual differences 147 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:06,720 Speaker 1: between boys and girls anatomies. Even siblings of the same 148 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:10,000 Speaker 1: gender become curious about variations in shapes and sizes of 149 00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:13,760 Speaker 1: their sex organs. Two small children exploring each other's bodies 150 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:16,480 Speaker 1: does not predestine them to a life of emotional suffering. 151 00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:20,720 Speaker 1: So you know, that might all kind of sound like 152 00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:24,640 Speaker 1: I am absolving Lena of having done anything wrong in 153 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:27,920 Speaker 1: this situation, right, But I actually think that this is 154 00:08:27,920 --> 00:08:30,280 Speaker 1: where things get a little bit tricky, And this trickiness 155 00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:32,960 Speaker 1: is exactly what drove me to wanting to make an 156 00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:36,880 Speaker 1: episode about this topic. So I should say, I myself 157 00:08:36,920 --> 00:08:39,280 Speaker 1: am a survivor of sexual abuse, and so I know 158 00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:41,960 Speaker 1: that when something can be difficult to talk about, like 159 00:08:42,040 --> 00:08:44,760 Speaker 1: most sensitive issues are. But I also know that we 160 00:08:44,840 --> 00:08:50,280 Speaker 1: really really do need to talk honestly and thoughtfully about it. 161 00:08:51,320 --> 00:08:53,440 Speaker 1: And you know what doesn't help us to have conversations 162 00:08:53,480 --> 00:08:55,920 Speaker 1: about tough issues in a way that's honest and thoughtful 163 00:08:56,080 --> 00:09:00,320 Speaker 1: and nuanced, uh adding lies to the mix. This is 164 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:04,280 Speaker 1: a deliberate tactic that bad actors and disinformers employ, seizing 165 00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:07,800 Speaker 1: on hot button issues, adding lies to the mix intentionally 166 00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:12,000 Speaker 1: to derail those conversations. And honestly, this is what really 167 00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:14,920 Speaker 1: kind of gets me so upset about this issue, is 168 00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:18,679 Speaker 1: that we should not and cannot tolerate lies being added 169 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:22,080 Speaker 1: to conversations that are as sensitive and important as childhood 170 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:26,440 Speaker 1: sexual abuse, especially not as a way to score cheap 171 00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:29,520 Speaker 1: political points the way that Shapiro and Truth Revolt did, 172 00:09:29,679 --> 00:09:34,199 Speaker 1: because it really derails progress and are collective shared understanding. 173 00:09:34,559 --> 00:09:37,760 Speaker 1: There is no conversation that is made better by the 174 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:41,280 Speaker 1: injection of lies, and people deserve the truth like that 175 00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:44,720 Speaker 1: is a a value that I will just like scream 176 00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:47,160 Speaker 1: from the rooftops over and over again. If you are 177 00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:51,239 Speaker 1: adding lies to conversation, you are doing us all a disservice. 178 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:54,160 Speaker 1: And so I also think that truth revolt really blowing 179 00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:56,880 Speaker 1: up what Lena did right on her memoir with inaccurate 180 00:09:56,920 --> 00:10:00,280 Speaker 1: information really makes it difficult to address a what she 181 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:04,120 Speaker 1: actually did and b how she actually wrote about it. 182 00:10:04,320 --> 00:10:07,160 Speaker 1: And because of their lie, because of them starting off 183 00:10:07,160 --> 00:10:11,720 Speaker 1: this conversation with such an inflammatory, big, you know, you know, 184 00:10:11,880 --> 00:10:17,000 Speaker 1: defining piece of inaccurate content, Lena understandably is then put 185 00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:19,280 Speaker 1: in a position where she has to defend herself against 186 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:22,240 Speaker 1: a claim that was not true that she sexually abused 187 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:24,880 Speaker 1: her sibling when she was seventeen. So I think it 188 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:29,120 Speaker 1: really turns the situation into a binary where she did 189 00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:31,480 Speaker 1: it is on one side, and no, she didn't is 190 00:10:31,520 --> 00:10:34,760 Speaker 1: on the other. And that again is a classic disinformer 191 00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:38,960 Speaker 1: derailing tactic, flattening out conversations and stripping them of any 192 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:42,560 Speaker 1: context or nuance that are required to have a thoughtful, 193 00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:45,600 Speaker 1: substitutive conversation about something that is sensitive or a hot 194 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:48,520 Speaker 1: button topic. And so I would actually argue that this 195 00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:51,640 Speaker 1: prevents us from having a public conversation about what Lena 196 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:54,560 Speaker 1: actually did and how she wrote about it. We never 197 00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:56,920 Speaker 1: really got to have that conversation because of how much 198 00:10:56,960 --> 00:11:00,440 Speaker 1: oxygen truth revolts Lie took up in the room and 199 00:11:00,480 --> 00:11:03,080 Speaker 1: that is by design. And further, I would argue that 200 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:06,920 Speaker 1: their injection of inaccurate information into the conversation, you know, 201 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:11,520 Speaker 1: really just adds this this, this sheen of inaccuracy. I 202 00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:13,640 Speaker 1: would be willing to bet that at least some people 203 00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:17,640 Speaker 1: trying to engage in a conversation probably have a misunderstanding 204 00:11:17,679 --> 00:11:20,840 Speaker 1: about the basic facts of what happened. And so I 205 00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:22,800 Speaker 1: guess all of this is to say, like, this is 206 00:11:22,800 --> 00:11:24,880 Speaker 1: the conversation that I wish we would have gotten to have, 207 00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:28,400 Speaker 1: because if experts seem to suggest that what Lena described 208 00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:31,520 Speaker 1: in her book is not abuse, I still don't think 209 00:11:31,559 --> 00:11:33,720 Speaker 1: it was great or good, and I still want to 210 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:37,720 Speaker 1: talk about what actually happened without that inflammatory lie preventing 211 00:11:37,800 --> 00:11:40,559 Speaker 1: us from doing that. Yeah, I totally agree with you that, 212 00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:45,200 Speaker 1: you know, the injection of lies and any conversation degrades 213 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:48,040 Speaker 1: that conversation. It makes it that much harder to have 214 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:53,000 Speaker 1: an honest conversation about whatever it is. And you know, 215 00:11:53,120 --> 00:11:57,080 Speaker 1: usually when people are making up lies, they're doing it 216 00:11:57,120 --> 00:11:59,480 Speaker 1: for some kind of agenda to like you said, take 217 00:11:59,480 --> 00:12:01,559 Speaker 1: all the ads Genna out of the room, to prevent 218 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:06,760 Speaker 1: discussion about something else, or to discredit and smear and 219 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:11,960 Speaker 1: shame woman who they perceive as a leftist activists. And 220 00:12:12,559 --> 00:12:16,800 Speaker 1: you know, I don't have any strong feelings for or 221 00:12:16,840 --> 00:12:20,040 Speaker 1: against Lena Dunham, and I've actually learned so much in 222 00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:22,920 Speaker 1: just like making these episodes with you. But it is 223 00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:29,079 Speaker 1: just so familiar a trope of right wing ship heads 224 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:33,400 Speaker 1: making things up to smear somebody who they perceive as 225 00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:38,240 Speaker 1: an enemy and just injecting lies into the conversation exactly. 226 00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:40,480 Speaker 1: So let's take a look at what she actually wrote 227 00:12:40,559 --> 00:12:44,560 Speaker 1: and why you know it's still not good. First, I 228 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:48,560 Speaker 1: think it's definitely an issue with tone and framing. Childhood 229 00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:51,160 Speaker 1: sexual abuse is not a joke, and I think dealing 230 00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:53,199 Speaker 1: with it in this way that sort of jokey what 231 00:12:53,559 --> 00:12:56,800 Speaker 1: seriously bad on Lena Dunham's part. I would have never 232 00:12:56,840 --> 00:12:59,400 Speaker 1: written about my younger sibling the way that that Dunham 233 00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:01,640 Speaker 1: did in her book, and I can really see how 234 00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:04,760 Speaker 1: people feel it raises some questions about boundaries. You know, 235 00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:09,280 Speaker 1: did Lena see these experiences that involved her sibling as 236 00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:12,640 Speaker 1: hers and hers alone to to free to freely share 237 00:13:12,640 --> 00:13:15,760 Speaker 1: in a book? You know, why would she think that 238 00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:18,599 Speaker 1: having a whole section of her book dedicated to the 239 00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:21,560 Speaker 1: ways that she kind of, you know, foisted herself on 240 00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:25,920 Speaker 1: her baby sibling, like like, I guess like writing about 241 00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:27,840 Speaker 1: that and as a way that's a kind of cute 242 00:13:27,920 --> 00:13:30,920 Speaker 1: and sort of like defining her as a quirky character 243 00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:34,040 Speaker 1: or like a like a jokey thing is really I 244 00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:37,520 Speaker 1: think inappropriate, and I think it's fair to say that 245 00:13:37,520 --> 00:13:40,880 Speaker 1: that raises some legitimate questions. You know, was that harmful 246 00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:43,920 Speaker 1: to to Lena's sibling. I actually heard from a listener 247 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:47,080 Speaker 1: after the first part of this series aired last week, 248 00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:50,559 Speaker 1: and this person left an Instagram comment and they felt 249 00:13:50,760 --> 00:13:54,680 Speaker 1: very strongly that what Lena described in her book was 250 00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:58,240 Speaker 1: actually child like childhood sexual abuse. Remember you got that 251 00:13:58,320 --> 00:14:02,920 Speaker 1: comment from that listener, and uh, it was pretty emotional 252 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:06,360 Speaker 1: and legitimate. So I'm I hope that they're listening to 253 00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:10,079 Speaker 1: this second part to get a little bit more context 254 00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:13,280 Speaker 1: for what we're trying to say. Yeah, me too. I'm 255 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:15,760 Speaker 1: I'm really happy that they left that comment. And you know, 256 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:17,400 Speaker 1: I think it's one of those things where it's like, 257 00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:21,000 Speaker 1: I think it's a completely valid question to ask about 258 00:14:21,680 --> 00:14:24,640 Speaker 1: the behavior that Lena describes in the book and the 259 00:14:24,680 --> 00:14:28,160 Speaker 1: way that she wrote about and framed that behavior Yeah, 260 00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:31,440 Speaker 1: it is curious to me. You know, I I haven't 261 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:35,240 Speaker 1: read the book, but but you did. What what do 262 00:14:35,280 --> 00:14:39,800 Speaker 1: you think was her intention of writing that in the book. Oh, 263 00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:42,840 Speaker 1: that's a great question. The book. So for folks who 264 00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:44,840 Speaker 1: have read the book, they know that a big part 265 00:14:44,880 --> 00:14:48,320 Speaker 1: of it is that Lena slowly reveals herself to be 266 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:52,080 Speaker 1: a very unreliable narrator, one who is kind of like 267 00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:59,080 Speaker 1: sardonically looking at and projecting commentary onto her own experiences. 268 00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:01,920 Speaker 1: And so her experience is are presented and you and 269 00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:04,120 Speaker 1: you the reader sort of takes them at face value. 270 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:07,360 Speaker 1: And then later in the book those many of those 271 00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:10,760 Speaker 1: experiences are revisited in ways that reveal her to be 272 00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:14,440 Speaker 1: an unreliable narrator about her own experiences and in ways 273 00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:17,800 Speaker 1: that sort of present her astis like, Yeah, this sarcastic, 274 00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:22,800 Speaker 1: sardonic person who is camp like kind of like critiquing 275 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:26,040 Speaker 1: and commenting on the way that she described those things. 276 00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:28,760 Speaker 1: Early on. There's this piece for Vox by Alex Abod 277 00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:31,920 Speaker 1: Santos that I think perfectly summarizes what I'm trying to say. 278 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:35,600 Speaker 1: Alex writes the way Dunham wrote the incident up in 279 00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:38,240 Speaker 1: her book, and the degree to which the writing style 280 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:40,720 Speaker 1: that has made her such a success may have also 281 00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:44,520 Speaker 1: led her astray. Here, child molestation is an extremely sensitive topic. 282 00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:48,400 Speaker 1: Kafar O, the sibling abuse expert, wrote that sibling sexual 283 00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:51,800 Speaker 1: abuse is far more common than most people think, quote 284 00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:54,640 Speaker 1: the most closely kept secret in the field of family violence. 285 00:15:55,200 --> 00:15:57,280 Speaker 1: But one study finding that at least two point three 286 00:15:57,280 --> 00:16:00,200 Speaker 1: percent of children have been sexually victimized by us a ling. 287 00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:04,280 Speaker 1: Dunham's treatment of this very serious topic was not exactly sensitive, 288 00:16:04,520 --> 00:16:07,520 Speaker 1: something she herself is acknowledged to some degree that is 289 00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:10,240 Speaker 1: of a piece with Dunham's greatest strength and weaknesses as 290 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:13,200 Speaker 1: a writer, she has a reputation for leaning into weird, 291 00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:16,320 Speaker 1: awkward situations on her HBO show Girls, and she's a 292 00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:19,800 Speaker 1: master at creating scenes, sexual or not, that make viewers cringe. 293 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:22,200 Speaker 1: This is a book about Lena Dunham's coming of age 294 00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:24,480 Speaker 1: in a society that does not normally tell stories of 295 00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:28,400 Speaker 1: girls becoming women, and it highlights quite well how uncomfortable 296 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:30,800 Speaker 1: and difficult growing up as a girl can be. And 297 00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:32,920 Speaker 1: so I think that piece really summarizes and I think 298 00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:35,920 Speaker 1: that she was trying to lean into the fact the 299 00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:40,000 Speaker 1: ways that sexual experiences and physical experiences can be so 300 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:43,840 Speaker 1: cringe e, so awkward, so uncomfortable. Um, And she does 301 00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:46,400 Speaker 1: that really well in other parts of her writing, but 302 00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:51,320 Speaker 1: I think that that same inclination I think really led 303 00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:54,280 Speaker 1: her astray here and I think it like it opens 304 00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:57,800 Speaker 1: up such such valid criticisms of the way that she 305 00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:14,800 Speaker 1: handled it. Let's take a quick break at our back. 306 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:18,480 Speaker 1: One of my big questions as did that bit of 307 00:17:18,520 --> 00:17:21,879 Speaker 1: the book contribute to a culture where sexual abuse is 308 00:17:22,080 --> 00:17:25,160 Speaker 1: further normalized? Again, I'm not an expert in this field, 309 00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:27,600 Speaker 1: but I think they're all valid questions, and I think 310 00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:31,040 Speaker 1: that's the bottom line. When we allow disinformers to flatten 311 00:17:31,119 --> 00:17:35,160 Speaker 1: out entire conversations with an accurate information, we don't really 312 00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:39,040 Speaker 1: get to have the real conversation about what actually happens. 313 00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:41,879 Speaker 1: And I think it creates the conditions that lead to 314 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:45,159 Speaker 1: Lena not really having to be held accountable for what 315 00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:47,760 Speaker 1: she actually wrote, because the only thing anybody is really 316 00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:51,199 Speaker 1: talking about is the lie about what she wrote. And 317 00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:54,199 Speaker 1: I think that Lena would probably agree that, you know, 318 00:17:54,880 --> 00:17:58,480 Speaker 1: how she handled this incident in her memoir wasn't great 319 00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:03,200 Speaker 1: because she apologized, she wrote, quote, if the situation is 320 00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:05,399 Speaker 1: described in my book, have been painful or triggering for 321 00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:08,480 Speaker 1: people to read. I am sorry. That was never my intention. 322 00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:10,720 Speaker 1: I am also aware that my comic use of the 323 00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:13,720 Speaker 1: term sexual predator wasn't sensitive, and I'm sorry for that 324 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:15,800 Speaker 1: as well. She also went on to say that her 325 00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:18,679 Speaker 1: sibling is her best friend and quote, anything I have 326 00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:22,639 Speaker 1: ever written about has been published with approval. Yeah, that's 327 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:26,199 Speaker 1: I mean, it's hard to argue with that that it 328 00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:31,320 Speaker 1: was not very sensitive. And you know, her apology is 329 00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:38,399 Speaker 1: a reminder of how serious talking about sexual abuse is, 330 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:42,959 Speaker 1: you know, and so yeah, you probably shouldn't have written that, 331 00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:47,720 Speaker 1: but it is so notable that the whole controversy and 332 00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:53,719 Speaker 1: apparently allegations that you know, people can continue to hold 333 00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:57,960 Speaker 1: against her being a seventeen year old sexual predator were 334 00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:03,480 Speaker 1: did not come from the alleged victim her sibling, did 335 00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:09,200 Speaker 1: not come from survivor justice advocates, but instead came from 336 00:19:09,240 --> 00:19:14,480 Speaker 1: Ben Shapiro, like avowed and an open right wing activist, 337 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:17,479 Speaker 1: you know, like, you're not gonna convince me that he 338 00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:23,280 Speaker 1: gives a ship about uh really anyone? Yeah, and uh 339 00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:28,240 Speaker 1: right wing activist who explicitly said that the intention of 340 00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:34,040 Speaker 1: his media outlet was to attack prominent left wing folks, 341 00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:37,040 Speaker 1: prominent liberal voices. Lena Dunham is a propinab a prominent 342 00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:40,320 Speaker 1: liberal voice that she certainly was when when this all happened. 343 00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:42,800 Speaker 1: And so I think that I also want to really 344 00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:46,879 Speaker 1: lift up what you just said about these allegations not 345 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:50,080 Speaker 1: coming from Lena's sibling. I think the thing that really 346 00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:53,600 Speaker 1: sticks with me about this whole situation is the way 347 00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:59,280 Speaker 1: that Lena dunham sibling, their voice is almost universally ignored. 348 00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:04,840 Speaker 1: And so I just really believe in centering, survivors, centering, 349 00:20:05,359 --> 00:20:08,320 Speaker 1: giving people space to be the experts of their own experiences. 350 00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:12,000 Speaker 1: And so, yeah, the thing that really just really bumps 351 00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:15,520 Speaker 1: me out is that Cyrus Grace's voice is almost entirely 352 00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:19,440 Speaker 1: erased when people talk about this, When people repeat, you know, oh, 353 00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:22,119 Speaker 1: Lena Dunham did this to their to her sibling, I 354 00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:24,520 Speaker 1: just feel like we just don't know. It's it's so 355 00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:28,399 Speaker 1: easy to not make space for Cyrus's voice, and I 356 00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:30,880 Speaker 1: think what you said really helps us see how problematic 357 00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:35,240 Speaker 1: that is. Yeah, Like having this conversation, I'm sort of wondering, 358 00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:38,280 Speaker 1: is this a conversation about childhood sexual abuse or is 359 00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:42,600 Speaker 1: it a conversation about a celebrity. Well, I would argue that, 360 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:46,280 Speaker 1: like I think, for a lot of people, because they 361 00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:49,399 Speaker 1: don't like Lena Dunham for whatever reason, and some of 362 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:52,600 Speaker 1: those reasons are valid. The the the actual meat of 363 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:56,800 Speaker 1: the conversation, caring about and believing and uplifting survivors of 364 00:20:56,840 --> 00:20:59,359 Speaker 1: sexual abuse, that kind of gets pushed to the sideline 365 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:01,920 Speaker 1: because the real thing is finding a way to talk 366 00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:03,760 Speaker 1: about how much we don't likely have done them and 367 00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:06,120 Speaker 1: how awful she is, you know what I mean? Yeah, totally, 368 00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:10,520 Speaker 1: Like I'm no stranger to add hominin attacks. You know, 369 00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:16,119 Speaker 1: like if there's somebody I don't like, I'll happily you know, 370 00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:21,040 Speaker 1: sign up for piling on for something shitty or stupid 371 00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:24,879 Speaker 1: that they did. But it does feel very different when 372 00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:30,720 Speaker 1: that piling on involves allegations of sexual abuse about some 373 00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:34,080 Speaker 1: third person who's not even part of the conversation. Uh, 374 00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:38,280 Speaker 1: and is built on lies. And you know, like you 375 00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:42,639 Speaker 1: said earlier, just sucking the air out of valid conversations 376 00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:45,879 Speaker 1: in the space not valid, I don't mean valot, I 377 00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:50,680 Speaker 1: mean truthful, you know, right, So you know that's exactly 378 00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:52,960 Speaker 1: what I think is happening here. So now that you 379 00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:55,719 Speaker 1: know what actually happened versus the lie that truth revolts 380 00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:58,919 Speaker 1: amplified about it. Let's talk about exactly that, Like what 381 00:21:59,119 --> 00:22:01,720 Speaker 1: is it that made this such a sticky narrative? And 382 00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:04,760 Speaker 1: that's the thing that really, I don't know, it fascinates 383 00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:08,200 Speaker 1: me about this claim because it has had real staying power. 384 00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:11,000 Speaker 1: So question for you, Mike. Have you seen that meme 385 00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:13,560 Speaker 1: where it's a black hand and a white hand, like 386 00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:17,399 Speaker 1: grasping hands and a gesture of unity and something that 387 00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:20,200 Speaker 1: they agree about, like a shared commonality is written on 388 00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:22,639 Speaker 1: the middle of their hands. Yeah, of course, it's a 389 00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:26,000 Speaker 1: beautiful meme about coming together. So that meme pretty much 390 00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:29,840 Speaker 1: explains what I think is going on here. Basically. On 391 00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:34,159 Speaker 1: the black hand, you have you know, feminists, people of 392 00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:39,080 Speaker 1: color just generally, like just general people. On the white hand, 393 00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:41,919 Speaker 1: maybe I got right wing folks and the thing that 394 00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:45,080 Speaker 1: they're uniting over is that they all agreed they hate 395 00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:47,320 Speaker 1: Lena Dunham. That's kind of what I think is going 396 00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:50,160 Speaker 1: on here. Because even though the claim that Lena Dunham 397 00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:52,679 Speaker 1: sexually abused her one year old sibling when she was seventeen, 398 00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:55,880 Speaker 1: we know, started in the right wing blogosphere, it has 399 00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:59,040 Speaker 1: really traveled out of those spaces and become a fairly 400 00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:02,399 Speaker 1: widely accepted claim. And that's because Lena Dunham is just 401 00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:05,639 Speaker 1: like a controversial figure, She's a lightning rod. Yeah, it 402 00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:09,199 Speaker 1: really highlights how we can all come together to just 403 00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:12,440 Speaker 1: like shoot on women about ship that isn't true. Absolutely, 404 00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:15,000 Speaker 1: to put it bluntly, a lot of people just don't 405 00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:16,840 Speaker 1: like Lena Dunham and so in that way, I think 406 00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:20,000 Speaker 1: it was really easy for folks to project an inaccurate 407 00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:23,560 Speaker 1: claim against her and have it really stick. And this 408 00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:25,879 Speaker 1: also tells us something kind of interesting about the way 409 00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:29,040 Speaker 1: that inaccurate information works online. It can often speak to 410 00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:31,240 Speaker 1: something that is already inside of us. And so if 411 00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:35,560 Speaker 1: you're already primed to really hate Lena Dunham, when somebody 412 00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:38,359 Speaker 1: comes along and tells you something that really squares what 413 00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:42,080 Speaker 1: they're already held belief, it can really stick. Because our 414 00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:47,040 Speaker 1: brains love information, even inaccurate information or false information, that 415 00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:50,560 Speaker 1: validates opinions or values that we already hold. So if 416 00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:53,479 Speaker 1: your opinion is that Lena Dunham sucks, it sort of 417 00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:56,800 Speaker 1: doesn't matter if she actually did joke about abusing her 418 00:23:56,800 --> 00:23:58,680 Speaker 1: one year old sibling when she was seventeen or not. 419 00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:01,920 Speaker 1: It will stick because it squares with are are already 420 00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:04,400 Speaker 1: held belief. That's just how our brains as humans work. 421 00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:08,160 Speaker 1: And another truism about disinformation is that it often sees 422 00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:12,720 Speaker 1: as on legitimate existing tensions and and and pressure points 423 00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:17,720 Speaker 1: and fractures that already exist, particularly within marginalized communities. If 424 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:19,760 Speaker 1: you listen to the episode that we did about and 425 00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:24,040 Speaker 1: Father's Day or Vanessa again, this will probably sound familiar 426 00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:27,640 Speaker 1: to you. It pits black women against white women, or 427 00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:30,280 Speaker 1: the Latino community against the Black community. And I think 428 00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:34,280 Speaker 1: Lena Dunham is a really interesting case study for this, 429 00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:38,119 Speaker 1: because people, especially people of color, really do have some 430 00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:41,760 Speaker 1: valid reasons to dislike Lena Dunham. And these reasons are 431 00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:44,040 Speaker 1: often reflected in the kinds of tensions that I was 432 00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:46,400 Speaker 1: just naming above. You know, a lot of the tensions 433 00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:50,280 Speaker 1: occur along racial lines. Yeah, So I want to talk 434 00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:53,879 Speaker 1: about some of the valid reasons that folks have to 435 00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:57,440 Speaker 1: sort of be predisposed to not like Lena Dunham and 436 00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:02,960 Speaker 1: thus have this you know, inaccurate claim really have a 437 00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:05,879 Speaker 1: little bit of staying power. So one I think that 438 00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:08,359 Speaker 1: Lena Dunham has really come to represent a kind of 439 00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:11,639 Speaker 1: I guess I'll call it white girl cluelessness, that a 440 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:14,440 Speaker 1: lot of feminists of color were frankly sick of seeing 441 00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:17,320 Speaker 1: amplified as the voice of feminism. You know, when the 442 00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:20,520 Speaker 1: Show Girls first premiere in HBO, there was so much 443 00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:24,159 Speaker 1: fanfare cementing Lena Dunham, you know, as this voice of 444 00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:26,679 Speaker 1: a generation, the voice of young women. And I think 445 00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:30,080 Speaker 1: there was some resentment around who we amplify and who 446 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:32,600 Speaker 1: we give lots and lots and lots of chances to. 447 00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:36,199 Speaker 1: I often heard black feminists saying things like, oh, a 448 00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:38,920 Speaker 1: black woman would never get as many chances to mess 449 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:42,720 Speaker 1: up like Lena Dunham has. Uh side note, Lena Dunham 450 00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:45,800 Speaker 1: has had to apologize for so many things that there 451 00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:49,520 Speaker 1: is actually a Twitter meme account called Lena Dunham apologizes 452 00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:55,160 Speaker 1: that just creates randomly generated apologies for fictional Lena Dunnam missteps. 453 00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:58,120 Speaker 1: And I actually went to go look one up because 454 00:25:58,160 --> 00:25:59,399 Speaker 1: I was like, oh, I should read one here on 455 00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:02,159 Speaker 1: the podcast. I would be funny, And so I googled 456 00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:05,600 Speaker 1: Lena Dunham apology Twitter and I found the tweet. Lena 457 00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:08,639 Speaker 1: Dunham issued an apology for her new HBO Max series 458 00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:12,639 Speaker 1: Generation using real cat corpses in a classroom scene. But 459 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:15,919 Speaker 1: that apology tweet was actually real, that was actually her 460 00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:19,600 Speaker 1: apologizing for something that actually happened. Wow, So we're just 461 00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:24,480 Speaker 1: living in a universe where there's just one can't tell 462 00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:29,760 Speaker 1: what is true. Lena Dunham apologies or disinformation, Lenda Dunham apologies. 463 00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:33,840 Speaker 1: It's just a miasma of Lena Dunham uncertainty exactly exactly 464 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:35,720 Speaker 1: is it? Is it art imitating life or is it 465 00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:39,080 Speaker 1: life imitating art or is it art imitating cat corpses? 466 00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:43,600 Speaker 1: So this is a little bit of a tangent, but 467 00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:45,600 Speaker 1: I just have to mention it because I think it's 468 00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:50,000 Speaker 1: It was such a weird thing that happened along the 469 00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:54,040 Speaker 1: kind of race, race and gender intra community tensions that 470 00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:56,840 Speaker 1: I was just talking about before, and that is the 471 00:26:56,880 --> 00:26:59,879 Speaker 1: whole thing that went down between Lena Dunham and Odell Beckham. Uh, 472 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:03,679 Speaker 1: it was just really weird. So if you don't remember 473 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:06,200 Speaker 1: what happened a few years ago at the met gala, 474 00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:09,359 Speaker 1: Lena Dunham attended and she was wearing a tuxedo and 475 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:11,560 Speaker 1: she would see it next to the professional athlete Odell 476 00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:14,840 Speaker 1: Beckham Jr. And I guess Lena felt that he was 477 00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:18,240 Speaker 1: ignoring her or not paying an appropriate amount of attention 478 00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:22,320 Speaker 1: to her or something, and so after the event, Lena 479 00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:25,640 Speaker 1: wrote in her newsletter, Lenny Letter, I was sitting next 480 00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:28,080 Speaker 1: to Odell Beckham Jr. And it was so amazing, and 481 00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:30,399 Speaker 1: because it was like he looked at me and determined 482 00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:33,160 Speaker 1: I was not the shape of a woman by his standards. 483 00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:37,240 Speaker 1: He was like, that's a marshmallow, that's a child, that's 484 00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:40,679 Speaker 1: a dog. It wasn't mean, he just seemed confused. The 485 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:43,720 Speaker 1: vibe was very much do I want to fuck it? 486 00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:47,240 Speaker 1: Is it wearing Yep, it's wearing a tuxedo. I'm gonna 487 00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:49,639 Speaker 1: go back to my cell phone. It was like we 488 00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:52,120 Speaker 1: were forced to be together and he was literally scrolling 489 00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:54,919 Speaker 1: Instagram rather than have to look at a woman in 490 00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:57,480 Speaker 1: a bow tie. I was like, this should be called 491 00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:03,560 Speaker 1: the Metropolitan Museum of getting rejected by athletes. Um so, yeah, 492 00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:08,359 Speaker 1: that is a lot of projecting your own negative fantasies 493 00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:12,760 Speaker 1: and perhaps insecurities onto someone who sounded like was just 494 00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:15,679 Speaker 1: like minding their business on their phone at dinner. You know. 495 00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:18,399 Speaker 1: Added the fact that Beckham is a black man, and 496 00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:20,760 Speaker 1: it kind of sounds like she is responding to this 497 00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:27,080 Speaker 1: like perceived projection of a hyper sexualized black man onto her, 498 00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:30,960 Speaker 1: like she was like disappointed or felt some type of 499 00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:35,000 Speaker 1: way that he was not behaving in a way, like 500 00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:38,280 Speaker 1: an over sexualized manner toward her. And yeah, it just 501 00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:40,440 Speaker 1: feels like she like really projected a lot onto him. 502 00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:44,800 Speaker 1: She eventually apologized on Instagram. But it was just a 503 00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:49,800 Speaker 1: very weird thing that happened along very specific race and 504 00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:54,000 Speaker 1: gender fault lines that we know sometimes can be legitimate 505 00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:57,960 Speaker 1: tension points in our society. Yeah, yikes, Like to remind 506 00:28:58,000 --> 00:28:59,760 Speaker 1: me of what you were talking about from her book 507 00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:05,240 Speaker 1: where she establishes herself as an unreliable narrator and somebody 508 00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:12,200 Speaker 1: who is dwelling in negative fantasies all the time, a 509 00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:17,680 Speaker 1: that has to suck and be uh. Yeah, it does 510 00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:21,520 Speaker 1: establish them as an unreliable narrator who is probably gonna 511 00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:24,120 Speaker 1: say some ship that they regret, yeah, over and over 512 00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:26,640 Speaker 1: and over again and have to apologize for it endlessly 513 00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:29,200 Speaker 1: to the point where it becomes a meme. Yeah. Those 514 00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:33,520 Speaker 1: did the cat corpses accept the apology? I wasn't able 515 00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:36,280 Speaker 1: to find a response from the cat corps community, but 516 00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:38,040 Speaker 1: I will keep looking, Okay, I'll check in with some 517 00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:50,080 Speaker 1: negwrom answers that I know more after a quick break, 518 00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:56,840 Speaker 1: let's get right back into it. So I mentioned how 519 00:29:56,960 --> 00:30:00,400 Speaker 1: Lena had a newsletter called Lenny Letter. Zenz Men's with 520 00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:02,760 Speaker 1: a black woman and a writer worked with Lena on 521 00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:06,320 Speaker 1: this letter and she publicly quit, citing Lena's quote well 522 00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:09,400 Speaker 1: known racism as the reason why. Clement said that she 523 00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:11,400 Speaker 1: went to college with Dunham and her friends and that 524 00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:13,360 Speaker 1: they kind of were in the same circles when they 525 00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:16,040 Speaker 1: were in college, and that she would call their strain 526 00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:20,440 Speaker 1: of racism quote hipster racism, which usually uses sarcasm as 527 00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:22,960 Speaker 1: a cover, which, boy, do I know a little something 528 00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:26,400 Speaker 1: about that from my own days in college. Clemens encouraged 529 00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:28,720 Speaker 1: other women of color to stop working with Lenda Dunham, 530 00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:31,800 Speaker 1: saying it is time for women of color, black women 531 00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:34,720 Speaker 1: in particular, to divest from Lena Dunham. She cannot have 532 00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:38,600 Speaker 1: our words if she cannot respect us. Boy oh boy, 533 00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:43,760 Speaker 1: is right, and coming from an old friend or somebody 534 00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:46,120 Speaker 1: who's known her since college and has worked with her, 535 00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:50,880 Speaker 1: that seems like a pretty damning charge with more substance 536 00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:56,520 Speaker 1: to it than out of context typo from her autobiography. 537 00:30:56,600 --> 00:31:01,000 Speaker 1: I completely agree, and you can really see how again 538 00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:05,840 Speaker 1: this you know, you're having a black woman writer say 539 00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:08,560 Speaker 1: this about Lena. You can see again how like these 540 00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:13,600 Speaker 1: things really do pop up along certain pre existing tension points, 541 00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:18,000 Speaker 1: you know, that really fall along racialized lines. And so another, 542 00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:21,760 Speaker 1: probably the biggest, deepest example for myself personally, is the 543 00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:25,160 Speaker 1: way that Lena handled a sexual assault allegation made against 544 00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:28,920 Speaker 1: writer and executive producer of Girls, Murray Miller, that happened 545 00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:32,880 Speaker 1: on the set. Basically what happened. Actress Aurora Parano, who's 546 00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:36,280 Speaker 1: mixed race, filed a police report accusing Girls writer and 547 00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:39,160 Speaker 1: executive producer Murray Miller of raping her on the set 548 00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:43,320 Speaker 1: of Girls in when she was seventeen years old. Now, 549 00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:45,640 Speaker 1: Miller said that she was making it up to extort 550 00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:48,040 Speaker 1: him and try to get money from him, and Lena 551 00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:53,120 Speaker 1: and her showrunner Jenny Kohner published this statement quote. While 552 00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:56,040 Speaker 1: our first instinct is to listen to every woman's story, 553 00:31:56,360 --> 00:32:00,440 Speaker 1: our insider knowledge of Murray's situation makes us confident that, sadly, 554 00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:03,600 Speaker 1: this accusation is one of the three percent of assault 555 00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:06,440 Speaker 1: cases that are misreported every year. It is a true 556 00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:09,440 Speaker 1: shame to add to that number as outside of Hollywood, 557 00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:12,520 Speaker 1: women still struggle to be believed. We stand by Murray, 558 00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:15,000 Speaker 1: and this is all we will be saying about this issue. 559 00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:21,160 Speaker 1: Jesus Christ, it's bad, so bad. There's so many things 560 00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:25,280 Speaker 1: wrong with that. Well, it gets worse. So obviously this 561 00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:28,480 Speaker 1: statement makes it seem like, you know, Lena and her 562 00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:32,280 Speaker 1: team have some kind of inside information that proves that 563 00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:36,720 Speaker 1: this assault never happened, but come to find out that 564 00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:39,680 Speaker 1: was all a lie. She made that up because in 565 00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:44,640 Speaker 1: follow up piece called to Aurora an apology Dune him 566 00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:48,440 Speaker 1: rights quote. When someone I knew, someone I had loved 567 00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:52,280 Speaker 1: as a brother, was accused, I did something inexcusable. I 568 00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:55,400 Speaker 1: publicly spoke up in his defense. There are a few 569 00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:57,920 Speaker 1: acts I could ever regret more in my life. I 570 00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:01,760 Speaker 1: didn't have the insider in form nation. I claimed rather 571 00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:05,000 Speaker 1: blind faith in a story that kept slipping and changing 572 00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:10,560 Speaker 1: and revealed itself to me nothing at all. Um. So yeah, 573 00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:15,640 Speaker 1: Lena basically smeared a woman who said that she had 574 00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:20,600 Speaker 1: been sexually assaulted by someone that she met on Lena's set, 575 00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:23,160 Speaker 1: the set of her hit show. She lied about this 576 00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:25,959 Speaker 1: woman for a long time and then eventually admitted that 577 00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:30,120 Speaker 1: lie in this piece, Um, yeah, I just think it's 578 00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:33,520 Speaker 1: really horrible and personally, this was the time, like I, 579 00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:36,800 Speaker 1: as I said in the last episode, like I was 580 00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:39,400 Speaker 1: a casual watcher of girls. I like a lot of 581 00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:41,920 Speaker 1: Lena Dunham's writing, but this is when she lost me 582 00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:44,480 Speaker 1: for for good, because I just felt like it was 583 00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:47,440 Speaker 1: such a calculum like when you when you call a 584 00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:51,280 Speaker 1: woman of color a liar in public, you are doing 585 00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:55,560 Speaker 1: something that is like, you can't take that back. It's 586 00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:58,000 Speaker 1: it's such a I don't even know how to put it, 587 00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:02,920 Speaker 1: like it's it's such a big claim that is so 588 00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:05,880 Speaker 1: because of we live in a like a racist, sexist, 589 00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:09,440 Speaker 1: misogynistic society. When you say a woman of color is 590 00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:13,359 Speaker 1: lying about being abused or sexually assaulted in public, you 591 00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:15,799 Speaker 1: are just making a big claim that is going to 592 00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:18,080 Speaker 1: get a lot of attention, but you can't take back. 593 00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:20,960 Speaker 1: And so for me, that was the moment that Lena 594 00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:24,760 Speaker 1: Dunham lost me forever. So Lena eventually took the stage 595 00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:27,759 Speaker 1: with Aurora's mom Brittany at a Woman in Hollywood event 596 00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:32,200 Speaker 1: to publicly apologize again. Last November, when Brittany's beautiful daughter 597 00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:34,719 Speaker 1: Aurora accused a friend of mine of sexual assault I 598 00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:39,160 Speaker 1: denied her experience publicly. So I remember this moment so 599 00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:44,600 Speaker 1: viscerally watching it and thinking, this is a capital B, 600 00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:49,160 Speaker 1: capital M bad moment for women. Lena lied about a 601 00:34:49,160 --> 00:34:51,400 Speaker 1: woman of color who opened up about her experience of 602 00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:56,680 Speaker 1: sexual violence and just essentially publicly smeared her. Then a 603 00:34:56,719 --> 00:34:59,960 Speaker 1: few years later, she brings this woman's mom on Stay 604 00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:04,719 Speaker 1: Age and performs contrition in this kind of like, oh gee, 605 00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:06,839 Speaker 1: I'm just a kid with a lot to learn kind 606 00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:10,440 Speaker 1: of way, when in reality, she was the very powerful 607 00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:16,399 Speaker 1: creator and showrunner are the highly successful business with her 608 00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:18,880 Speaker 1: HBO show. So this idea that she was just like 609 00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:22,440 Speaker 1: a kid who had a lot to learn, that's completely incorrect, 610 00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:26,520 Speaker 1: and that framing is so clearly self serving. I'm sure 611 00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:28,280 Speaker 1: you could make the argument that it was a genuine 612 00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:31,239 Speaker 1: moment of you know, apology that she wanted to happen 613 00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:34,680 Speaker 1: in public. But I just it just really made me 614 00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:38,600 Speaker 1: feel weird and I really didn't like it, and yeah, 615 00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:43,000 Speaker 1: it just lost me forever. Yeah, and why her mom, 616 00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:47,160 Speaker 1: why not the woman herself? Like that just seems weird. 617 00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:49,680 Speaker 1: I'm sure people have answers to that, but it seems 618 00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:53,360 Speaker 1: weird to me. Yeah, And you can really see how 619 00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:55,600 Speaker 1: all the different controversies with Leada Donham that I just 620 00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:59,560 Speaker 1: laid out really do exist along pre existing political, racial 621 00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:03,040 Speaker 1: and so tensions. You know, white women versus women of color, 622 00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:06,640 Speaker 1: white women versus black men, these tensions that really do 623 00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:09,479 Speaker 1: already exist in our society and always have like way 624 00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:11,520 Speaker 1: before Lena Dunham. It's not it's not like she created 625 00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:15,880 Speaker 1: these things, but that tensions that we have already have 626 00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:18,960 Speaker 1: a kind of a tough time talking honestly about. And 627 00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:22,920 Speaker 1: when those tensions are present, it's just the textbook conditions 628 00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:26,799 Speaker 1: for inaccurate or misleading information to fester and spread. And 629 00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:29,120 Speaker 1: in a lot of ways, I feel like Lena Dunham 630 00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:32,120 Speaker 1: is like a walking embodiment of all of these tensions, 631 00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:35,360 Speaker 1: and so it's not really surprising that a particular misleading 632 00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:38,600 Speaker 1: claim about her would then sick. And I think that 633 00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:42,960 Speaker 1: is why we see this claim have such stickiness, you know, 634 00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:45,560 Speaker 1: this claim that she molested her sibling when she was seventeen. 635 00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:48,040 Speaker 1: I think that is the reason why we see it being, 636 00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:52,759 Speaker 1: you know, having such staying power. Yeah, and it's so 637 00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:59,440 Speaker 1: said that, you know, all those societal tensions of racism, 638 00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:03,440 Speaker 1: set ism, misogyn war just get shoved to the side, 639 00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:09,080 Speaker 1: and it becomes a conversation about a single like a 640 00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:12,680 Speaker 1: specific white woman and is she good or is she bad? 641 00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:16,680 Speaker 1: And like what a useless conversation? Exactly That's exactly my point, 642 00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:19,880 Speaker 1: Like we don't have the conversation of, like, was this 643 00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:23,520 Speaker 1: harmful to survivors of sexual violence? Was this a harmful 644 00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:26,080 Speaker 1: experience for Lena dunham sibling should what does it mean 645 00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:28,440 Speaker 1: that she wrote about it in this jokey way, Or 646 00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:29,920 Speaker 1: we don't have to get to have a conversation of 647 00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:33,080 Speaker 1: like what can we offer survivors of childhood sexual assault? 648 00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:34,759 Speaker 1: Or like how can we support them? Or how can 649 00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:38,200 Speaker 1: we create the conditions to eliminate sexual abuse in our world? 650 00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:41,040 Speaker 1: But those conversations are two big, two thorny, too meaty. 651 00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:44,240 Speaker 1: We don't have the conversation of like, well, why would 652 00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:47,719 Speaker 1: black feminists or black women have a bone to pick 653 00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:51,520 Speaker 1: with white womanhood or white feminism, or in what ways 654 00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:56,960 Speaker 1: have white women historically, you know, attacked black men, or 655 00:37:57,120 --> 00:38:00,680 Speaker 1: you know, like projected things onto black and that we're 656 00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:04,400 Speaker 1: harmful to them. Those are all the big, thorny, systemic 657 00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:07,799 Speaker 1: conversation that's hard to have and that frankly, we are 658 00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:10,480 Speaker 1: not equipped to have we're not having it, and so 659 00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:14,920 Speaker 1: that just gets conflated into Lena Dunham bad, Lena Dunham 660 00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:17,759 Speaker 1: did this, or Lena Dunham not bad, Lenda Didham, Lena 661 00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:21,680 Speaker 1: Dunham not did this right, Like, it just completely flattens 662 00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:24,480 Speaker 1: the conversation so that we're not really able to have 663 00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:27,960 Speaker 1: it be a thoughtful, substitutive, nuanced conversation. And some lingering 664 00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:30,520 Speaker 1: questions that I still have about this are whether or 665 00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:33,760 Speaker 1: not people who say that Lena Dunham abused her sibling 666 00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:36,279 Speaker 1: do they know they're talking about incidents that happened when 667 00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:39,160 Speaker 1: she was seven and not seventeen. Like how much did 668 00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:44,000 Speaker 1: that particular specific lie seep into people's actual consciousness and 669 00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:46,759 Speaker 1: their understanding of what happened? And maybe the answer is 670 00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:50,000 Speaker 1: will never know? And I think that is ultimately the 671 00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:53,480 Speaker 1: reason why this is such a big tactic for disinformers, 672 00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:58,040 Speaker 1: liars and bad actors, just creating enough negativity around someone 673 00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:01,920 Speaker 1: or something so that it ultimately doesn't really matter what 674 00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:05,839 Speaker 1: actually happened at all, because all anybody remembers or thinks 675 00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:09,320 Speaker 1: about when it comes up is the lie. Damn. Yeah, 676 00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:12,759 Speaker 1: but I think you're you're right. I think we've seen 677 00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:16,480 Speaker 1: time and again that's their goal, to create just a 678 00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:22,879 Speaker 1: miasma of unspecific negativity and and lies and uh not 679 00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:28,520 Speaker 1: just spread lies, but reduce confidence in there being any 680 00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:32,400 Speaker 1: sort of truth exactly right. It's what's like creating the 681 00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:35,440 Speaker 1: conditions where it's like, oh, well the conversation is so 682 00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:39,640 Speaker 1: muddled and difficult to follow that, like, what is the truth? Anyway? 683 00:39:39,719 --> 00:39:41,879 Speaker 1: As I think, the further we get away from that 684 00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:44,440 Speaker 1: where things that are not true can sort of become true, 685 00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:47,640 Speaker 1: the worst off we all are. And I have to say, 686 00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:51,280 Speaker 1: you know this all happened back in here we are 687 00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:53,880 Speaker 1: nearly ten years later, and just last week a V 688 00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:57,720 Speaker 1: club published an article about Lena's new film project on June, 689 00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:00,759 Speaker 1: and the top comments were all some iteration of the 690 00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:03,759 Speaker 1: claim that she sexually abused her sibling, like it will 691 00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:07,920 Speaker 1: never go away. It basically is true now whether or 692 00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:10,520 Speaker 1: not it actually happened, it's just sort of a non 693 00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:16,680 Speaker 1: issue at this point. That is grim alright, Well, so 694 00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:19,719 Speaker 1: so bridget what is the point of view telling us 695 00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:22,440 Speaker 1: all of this? Oh I'm so glad you asked. So 696 00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:25,640 Speaker 1: here we are in two and we have seen more 697 00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:30,239 Speaker 1: and more right wing extremist using very similar tactics, not 698 00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:34,120 Speaker 1: just on public figures, but on more and more regular people. 699 00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:36,840 Speaker 1: You know, look at things like libs of TikTok, that 700 00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:40,120 Speaker 1: page on Twitter, where people are regularly labeled as quote 701 00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:44,320 Speaker 1: groomers or basically accused of some kind of like vague 702 00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:49,920 Speaker 1: sexual impropriety against children. It's really gross and sad because 703 00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:53,920 Speaker 1: we actually do have a sexual abuse problem in our society. 704 00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:56,800 Speaker 1: So many of us are survivors of sexual violence or 705 00:40:56,800 --> 00:41:00,640 Speaker 1: sexual abuse, and bad actors and liars who spread damaging 706 00:41:00,719 --> 00:41:04,200 Speaker 1: lies and inaccurate content. They know this is a trigger 707 00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:06,440 Speaker 1: and attention for so many of this, Like this is 708 00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:09,719 Speaker 1: a pressure point in us that can be you know, 709 00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:13,680 Speaker 1: poked at and and inflamed, and it creates a situation 710 00:41:13,760 --> 00:41:16,640 Speaker 1: where the sexual abuse of kids as a topic that 711 00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:20,600 Speaker 1: is easily exploited and inflamed and can be weaponized against 712 00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:24,759 Speaker 1: political opponents. And so ultimately, I guess in conclusion, there 713 00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:28,600 Speaker 1: are plenty of reasons to not like Lynda Dunham, including 714 00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:31,279 Speaker 1: what she wrote about her sibling and her memoir. We 715 00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:33,440 Speaker 1: don't need to add lies on it to talk about it. 716 00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:36,279 Speaker 1: We're not better served when we add lies into a 717 00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:39,920 Speaker 1: conversation as important and as sensitive as childhood sexual violence, 718 00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:42,800 Speaker 1: and when we do that, we do a disservice to 719 00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:46,560 Speaker 1: issues like sexual abuse that are so important and critical 720 00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:49,360 Speaker 1: that we talk about. And ultimately, it's very concerning that 721 00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:52,080 Speaker 1: we have a kind of media climate and ecosystem that 722 00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:55,480 Speaker 1: create the conditions for this kind of damaging lie to 723 00:41:55,600 --> 00:41:59,680 Speaker 1: persist for years and essentially become true, even if it's not. 724 00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:03,759 Speaker 1: Two scary sentiment to end on. Yeah, I mean, that's 725 00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:09,719 Speaker 1: that's all I got. Well, let's all try to stick 726 00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:11,920 Speaker 1: to the truth. Huh Is that so hard? Is that 727 00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:15,759 Speaker 1: gonna kill us? Is that so hard? Ben Shapiro? Let's 728 00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:19,560 Speaker 1: just stick to the truth, shall we? Yeah? Seriously? And 729 00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:22,760 Speaker 1: so I know this is a controversial topic. I started 730 00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:26,279 Speaker 1: the series talking about the fact that I knew this 731 00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:29,800 Speaker 1: was going to be something people had opinions on, feelings, 732 00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:32,920 Speaker 1: on thoughts on. I welcome those thoughts. I really really 733 00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:35,160 Speaker 1: really want to hear what people have to say. Uh, 734 00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:37,080 Speaker 1: please don't come from me though I'm a baby. I 735 00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:40,480 Speaker 1: don't know. I'd like be be cool about it, but like, 736 00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:42,279 Speaker 1: I want to know what you think. You know, what 737 00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:45,480 Speaker 1: do you what are your thoughts on Lena Dunham, her 738 00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:47,680 Speaker 1: memoir all the things that we lay at out today. 739 00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:49,680 Speaker 1: I really want to hear your thoughts, so please you 740 00:42:49,719 --> 00:42:53,040 Speaker 1: can email me, you can find me on social media. 741 00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:55,120 Speaker 1: I want to hear what you'll think. And Mike, thank 742 00:42:55,160 --> 00:42:57,919 Speaker 1: you so much for taking this journey with us. Yeah, 743 00:42:57,920 --> 00:43:00,319 Speaker 1: thanks for bringing me on it. You know, I has 744 00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:05,359 Speaker 1: been great hearing from listeners about this. Who have you know, 745 00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:08,759 Speaker 1: feelings about it and thoughts about it, and that's great. 746 00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:11,959 Speaker 1: That really uh we this is actually the second time 747 00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:16,759 Speaker 1: that we've recorded this second part because we wanted to 748 00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:20,480 Speaker 1: incorporate speed that that we heard from listeners. And so yeah, 749 00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:24,239 Speaker 1: please email us it Hello at tanodi dot com. And 750 00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:26,480 Speaker 1: thanks Bridget for having me on. It's always a pleasure 751 00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:34,680 Speaker 1: of talking. Got a story about an interesting thing in tech. 752 00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:36,719 Speaker 1: I just want to say hi. You can reach us 753 00:43:36,719 --> 00:43:39,120 Speaker 1: at Hello at tangodi dot com. You can also find 754 00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:42,040 Speaker 1: transcripts for today's episode at tangdi dot com. There Are 755 00:43:42,040 --> 00:43:44,200 Speaker 1: No Girls on the Internet was created by me Bridget Todd. 756 00:43:44,600 --> 00:43:46,840 Speaker 1: It's a production of I Heeart Radio and Unboss creative 757 00:43:47,239 --> 00:43:50,200 Speaker 1: Jonathan Strickland as our executive producer. Tara Harrison is our 758 00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:53,720 Speaker 1: producer and sound engineer. Michael Amato is our contributing producer. 759 00:43:54,000 --> 00:43:56,680 Speaker 1: I'm your host, Bridget Todd. If you want to help 760 00:43:56,719 --> 00:43:59,680 Speaker 1: us grow, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. For 761 00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:01,960 Speaker 1: more podcast from I heeart Radio, check out the iHeart 762 00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:04,560 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. 763 00:44:15,360 --> 00:44:15,400 Speaker 1: H