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Speaker 1: yours today. How do you let someone know that they
Speaker 1: should make a move without giving any And that's the
Speaker 1: Van Edwards best selling author and Researcheressmon Edwards.
Speaker 2: We decide how confident someone is within the first two
Speaker 2: hundred milliseconds of hearing the speak. The best way to
Speaker 2: show availability is one word and it sounds like this.
Speaker 1: Tell me why compliments don't work? How do we tell
Speaker 1: the difference between charisma and narcissism?
Speaker 3: The way you see the world changes the world.
Speaker 1: What are the negative cues we miss because we're infatuated
Speaker 1: or attractive as hell?
Speaker 2: If you want to be treated with more respect, you
Speaker 2: have to make sure It's.
Speaker 1: The number one health and wellness podcast. Jay Sheety Jay
Speaker 1: Shettyly shet Hey everyone, Welcome back to on Purpose, the
Speaker 1: place you come to become happier, healthier, and more healed.
Speaker 1: You know that one of my biggest focuses and services
Speaker 1: is introducing you to experts who are obsessed and addicted
Speaker 1: to their field. People who are powerhouses, who deeply and
Speaker 1: intimately understand human behavior so they can help you improve
Speaker 1: yours and spots sign of the people around you. Today's
Speaker 1: guest is going to do just that. I want to
Speaker 1: welcome to on Purpose for the first time ever, but
Speaker 1: not the last time. Vanessa van Edwards a multi time
Speaker 1: best selling author, renowned behavioral researcher on professional communication and leadership.
Speaker 1: More than fifty million people have seen Vanessa's talks on
Speaker 1: YouTube and how viral ted talk as well. Vanessa's work
Speaker 1: has been featured in national and international media including Entrepreneur Magazine, CNN, CBS,
Speaker 1: and many more. Vanessa's latest book, Cues Mastered The Secret
Speaker 1: Language of Charismatic Communication was an instant bestseller and I
Speaker 1: highly recommend it. Please welcome to On Purpose, Vanessa van Edwards. Vanessa,
Speaker 1: it's so great to have you here. I'm looking forward
Speaker 1: to this, Yes, waiting for this moment. Me too. And
Speaker 1: from the moment you walked in, I was like, this
Speaker 1: person is so charismatic, magnetic, says great energy and I
Speaker 1: want to start off, Vanessa, just to dive straight in.
Speaker 3: Let's do it.
Speaker 1: If someone was not only to listen, but to apply
Speaker 1: the insights you're about to share today, what would they overcome.
Speaker 2: I'm a recovering awkward person and I have found that
Speaker 2: through this work, and that is my mission today with you,
Speaker 2: that you can overcome awkwardness, doubt, and most importantly, the
Speaker 2: feeling of being underestimated.
Speaker 3: I think that that's really.
Speaker 2: What I'm trying to get at with my work is
Speaker 2: if you feel that you have a lot of potential,
Speaker 2: or you have this desire to connect, but you don't
Speaker 2: know how, and people are underestimating your charisma, your ideas,
Speaker 2: your smarts, who you are. My goal is to make
Speaker 2: it so you no longer feel underestimated.
Speaker 1: Oh I love that that's so strong.
Speaker 3: Those are my people.
Speaker 1: That's so strong, and I resonate with it so strongly
Speaker 1: because I'm sure, just like you, I meet so many
Speaker 1: people who feel they have the next big idea, who
Speaker 1: feel that they have something to share, something to give,
Speaker 1: something to teach, some to pass on, but they don't
Speaker 1: feel confident. They're lacking that feeling of courage. They're lacking
Speaker 1: that feeling of I don't know how to present my idea.
Speaker 1: I don't know how to share it. And this is
Speaker 1: what we're going to do today.
Speaker 2: And the problem is like I also had these ideas,
Speaker 2: but I not only didn't have confidence, I felt out
Speaker 2: of control. I think this is an aspect of communication
Speaker 2: we don't talk about enough. I think the side door
Speaker 2: into confidence because we all say I wish I felt
Speaker 2: more confident, But the side door is thinking, Okay, I
Speaker 2: have an idea, what's the blueprint that I need from conversations,
Speaker 2: from charisma to be able to get where I want?
Speaker 2: How can I take control of my connections, my relationship,
Speaker 2: my communication, so I know if I want to show
Speaker 2: up as friendly or as likable or as competent, I
Speaker 2: know exactly what to do with my body, my voice,
Speaker 2: my words to show.
Speaker 3: Up in that way.
Speaker 2: So for me, the only way I was able to
Speaker 2: overcome awkwardness was taking control of the signals I'm sending
Speaker 2: and being able to take control of the kinds of
Speaker 2: relationships and conversations I had.
Speaker 1: What I really appreciate about what you're saying. You just
Speaker 1: named three things you said. If I want to come
Speaker 1: across as friendly, likable, and competent. What's really fascinating is
Speaker 1: I think most of us don't even know we want
Speaker 1: to come across that way.
Speaker 3: This is true. The step one of control is how
Speaker 3: do you want people to see you? And here's what's
Speaker 3: really important. The cues that you send to others make
Speaker 3: people think about you a certain way. But the cues
Speaker 3: you send to others also change how others treat you.
Speaker 3: So if you want to be treated with more respect,
Speaker 3: you have to make sure it starts with you that
Speaker 3: you're sending the cues needed to show others how they
Speaker 3: should treat you with respect. If you want to be
Speaker 3: treated with friendliness or warmth or vulnerability, how do you
Speaker 3: signal to others? I want you to be open and
Speaker 3: raw and real with me. We can take control of
Speaker 3: those signals to tell others here's how I want to
Speaker 3: be treated. And so step one is how do you
Speaker 3: want people to see you? It's a ill game, okay.
Speaker 2: So in your mind, when people first meet you, what
Speaker 2: word do you think they think? Like, what's a word
Speaker 2: they use to describe you?
Speaker 1: Ooh, that's so good.
Speaker 3: What do you think it is?
Speaker 1: I would hope it is is warm?
Speaker 3: Warm? Okay.
Speaker 2: So I've asked this to thousands of people and the
Speaker 2: words are you know, all over the place. By the way,
Speaker 2: a lot of folks have negative words, and that's okay. Like,
Speaker 2: for example, my word used to be awkward, right, like
Speaker 2: people would say that I knew you know when you
Speaker 2: show up. And I'm a social overthinker, so like I
Speaker 2: would get in my head about things.
Speaker 3: I would overthink things I knew. I could see in
Speaker 3: their face.
Speaker 2: That I was coming across as awkward and I was
Speaker 2: creating more awkwardness. So my original word for first impression
Speaker 2: was awkward, and that's what got me into this work.
Speaker 2: So a lot of the words. I have two kind
Speaker 2: of groups of people. I have folks like you who
Speaker 2: are like.
Speaker 3: Warm, competent, charismatic, confident. I love it. I love it.
Speaker 2: But a lot of folks and if this is you,
Speaker 2: I'm with you, I'm gonna help. It could be quiet,
Speaker 2: it could be awkward, it could be scared, nervous. There's
Speaker 2: a lot of words like that. Okay, so start there.
Speaker 2: Then the question is what do you want people to
Speaker 2: think when they first meet you. What's the word that
Speaker 2: you wish? Maybe even two or three words. How do
Speaker 2: you want to come across? So would yours ideal be warm?
Speaker 2: And do you have another one that you wish?
Speaker 1: I'd probably add loving.
Speaker 3: Loving, love it.
Speaker 2: Okay, so think of three words that you wish to convey.
Speaker 2: Now we have to work backwards. So step two is, okay,
Speaker 2: how do we convey warmth and competence and loving or confidence?
Speaker 2: That's where the real magic happens. And there are ninety
Speaker 2: seven cues. I've identified ninety seven keys, ninety seven cues.
Speaker 2: The very beginning of my career, I realize that humans
Speaker 2: were sending these social signals back and forth. You're nodding,
Speaker 2: your hand, gesture, your feet, your voice, power, and I
Speaker 2: just missed them all. I have an affliction. I tend
Speaker 2: to misinterpret neutral faces as negative. I think we all
Speaker 2: a lot of people tell a lot of people. It's
Speaker 2: the basis of resting bothered face.
Speaker 3: This is the basis.
Speaker 2: There's actually science behind RBF, and it's that most people
Speaker 2: misidentify neutral expressions as negative. And by the way, interesting
Speaker 2: thing they found in the research with this was if
Speaker 2: you are an angrier person, if you to get angry more,
Speaker 2: you see more neutral faces as angry.
Speaker 1: Ooh or I didn't even think about this.
Speaker 2: So in a way, the way you see the world
Speaker 2: changes the world. Right, Like, if you were an angry
Speaker 2: person and you're misinterpreting neutral faces as angry and then
Speaker 2: you reply back with anger or offensiveness or defensiveness, you
Speaker 2: make them angry.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, And so this.
Speaker 3: Is like this weird c cycle.
Speaker 2: Okay, so if there's ninety seven different cues, I started
Speaker 2: categorizing them because I was like, I don't I'm misinterpreting.
Speaker 3: And I would say to my.
Speaker 2: Husband, I think she's mad at me, and he'd be like,
Speaker 2: why I go to a party like everyone's mad at me.
Speaker 3: He'd be like, I didn't see that at all.
Speaker 2: And that's when I started to realize, Okay, what are
Speaker 2: the actual negative faces? So I discovered, you know, the
Speaker 2: research on micro expressions, the seven micro expressions, what we
Speaker 2: can talk about and then I started to categorize these
Speaker 2: patterns just for me, and then I realized there was
Speaker 2: all these other awkward people who also wanted to be
Speaker 2: able to read these social signals.
Speaker 3: And so I think that.
Speaker 2: When you've picked your word, starting to make your recipe
Speaker 2: of charisma.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and what I love about this is this is
Speaker 1: all how happening before you get to the date, before
Speaker 1: you get to the event, before you get to the interview.
Speaker 1: This is where it has to start. And I think
Speaker 1: so many of us turn up and naturally, by the way,
Speaker 1: me included. I think the challenge I have is people
Speaker 1: may assume that I'm always confident and have it all together.
Speaker 1: If I don't prepare for an event, I can turn
Speaker 1: up and feel exactly the same way because I walk
Speaker 1: in and I'm rushed there and I'm thinking, gosh, what
Speaker 1: am I going to say? Like why am I here again?
Speaker 1: And why is that person looking at me with that way?
Speaker 1: And were they right?
Speaker 3: Okay, so this is good.
Speaker 2: Let's add a step to our exercise, which is I'm
Speaker 2: just thinking about this, now, what's your bad day first
Speaker 2: impression word?
Speaker 1: My bad day first impression word would be absent, like I'm.
Speaker 3: Just like muting.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like, I'm just not quite there. I'm probably looking
Speaker 1: through someone. I'm probably not listening as well as I
Speaker 1: usually do because I'm kind of just I'm lost. I'm
Speaker 1: a bit lost and absent.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Okay, So everyone should think about their first impression word,
Speaker 2: their current first impression word, and their ideal why. What
Speaker 2: are the triggers that trigger you to be in that
Speaker 2: bad space and what are the triggers that make you
Speaker 2: feel in that good space. So one of the very
Speaker 2: first steps is Okay, whether you're an introvert, an extrovert,
Speaker 2: or an ambivert, and there is that sort of in between,
Speaker 2: who triggers you to be your best self?
Speaker 3: You know how?
Speaker 2: Like around certain people, you're like, ah, I'm my funniest
Speaker 2: I'm my most charismatic. Great, those are the people who
Speaker 2: bring out the good first impression. You want to be
Speaker 2: around those people as much as possible. Who are the
Speaker 2: people who bring out the bad first impression?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 3: Like?
Speaker 2: Who are the people who make you feel the way
Speaker 2: I would describe as like tight inside, Like that's how I
Speaker 2: would describe it, rigid, Like that's what I do. I
Speaker 2: get very rigid when I'm afraid or nervous. Who makes
Speaker 2: you feel angry, Who makes you feel rigid, who makes
Speaker 2: you feel afraid? Who makes you shut down? You know,
Speaker 2: awkwardness dresses up in a lot of different ways. Some people,
Speaker 2: their awkwardness is shutting down, right, They mute, they go quiet,
Speaker 2: they collapse in on themselves, they take up less.
Speaker 3: Space from body language perspective.
Speaker 2: But other people get bigger, they become dramatic, they name drop,
Speaker 2: they talk too loud, they overtalk. Like, that's also a
Speaker 2: way that are awkward to stress up. So what are
Speaker 2: your triggers that make you do that? The people, but
Speaker 2: also the places. Yes, right, Like I love a one
Speaker 2: on one conversation, So I'm I was more excited for
Speaker 2: this conversation than I would be. Like if you were
Speaker 2: to say, Vanessa, come over to my house for a
Speaker 2: happy hour.
Speaker 1: Which never happens in my house because I'm not coming.
Speaker 2: I can't come, or if I come, I would be
Speaker 2: like agonizing the whole time, like a rooftop bar, you know,
Speaker 2: loud night club, just like not my space.
Speaker 3: Like, I just triggered all the bad stuff in me.
Speaker 2: So I think that like knowing who and what is
Speaker 2: going to also set you up for success into getting
Speaker 2: to the better taking control, Right, if you can control
Speaker 2: the people in the places where you want to show
Speaker 2: up your best self, that's like step number one.
Speaker 3: That's the groundwork.
Speaker 1: And I think that that's hard shifting that moving that
Speaker 1: forward when you have to start going to places where
Speaker 1: you don't know anyone. Right, And there were two areas
Speaker 1: I already wanted to focus on with you today. One
Speaker 1: was looking at the dating landscape, and we'll start there.
Speaker 1: And the second I want to focus on is work. Yeah,
Speaker 1: because I feel like those are the two areas where
Speaker 1: your skills and your habits and your tools thrive in
Speaker 1: a way that you know people are going to change
Speaker 1: their lives. We were talking about this idea that let's
Speaker 1: say you're at a workout class. Let's say you're at
Speaker 1: a social space. Maybe it is a rooftop bar, maybe
Speaker 1: it is a club. Yes, you want to signal to
Speaker 1: someone to make a move. You want to let them
Speaker 1: know that you find them attractive, that you'd like them
Speaker 1: to do something. But you want to be subtle. You
Speaker 1: don't want to give it away. How do you let
Speaker 1: someone know that they should make a move without giving
Speaker 1: it away?
Speaker 2: Okay, I'm going to give you news that you're probably
Speaker 2: not going to like, but it's so important. It's a
Speaker 2: phenomenon called signal amplification bias. What this is, it's very
Speaker 2: well studied that we tend to think we are over
Speaker 2: obvious with our cues. So if you're in a bar,
Speaker 2: they literally studied singles in a like bar nightclub set,
Speaker 2: women and men who think they are being obvious with
Speaker 2: their flirtation cues. The other person has no idea.
Speaker 3: Okay, that's so good.
Speaker 2: They even counted the number of flirtation signals. This was
Speaker 2: incredible research. They observed singles mingling, and they counted each
Speaker 2: person's flirtatious signals towards other people in the room. They
Speaker 2: found in ten minutes, how many signals do you think
Speaker 2: it took for a woman to show a man she
Speaker 2: was interested? How many in ten minutes? How many signals
Speaker 2: did you have to send when it actually worked? When
Speaker 2: it actually worked.
Speaker 1: Now that you've given me some sort of I'm gonna
Speaker 1: go thirty twenty nine, oh okay, cool.
Speaker 3: That's it. But do you know how many signals that is.
Speaker 1: Innut A lot of signals that is that is pretty constant.
Speaker 1: And if you didn't tell me, I probably would have
Speaker 1: guessed three, right, it was only because you gave me
Speaker 1: a sense that there was more. I probably would have
Speaker 1: said three seven.
Speaker 2: That is what women think is it was needed. I
Speaker 2: sent three flirty glances and he just didn't come over.
Speaker 2: He's not interested, No, he didn't see him, or he
Speaker 2: doubted himself, or he was like, was that a trick
Speaker 2: of my eye? It took twenty nine signals in ten
Speaker 2: minutes to get approached. So the other person went, oh,
Speaker 2: she's interested, just interested. That was before the even the
Speaker 2: conversation started. So what are the flirty glances of availability?
Speaker 2: And this is what's most important is in the same
Speaker 2: group of studies, they found that attractive women, the most
Speaker 2: attractive women, who are rated on their attractiveness got approached
Speaker 2: less than unattractive women who.
Speaker 3: Didn't signal enough.
Speaker 1: Fascinating.
Speaker 2: So if you're an attractive woman and you don't signal enough,
Speaker 2: you won't be approached.
Speaker 1: Do you have to approach more? Based on how objectively
Speaker 1: attractive you are?
Speaker 2: You have to be available more. So what they found
Speaker 2: and this is so it's ridiculous that we're rating on attractiveness,
Speaker 2: but it helps us understand that something that I think
Speaker 2: we use attractiveness as an excuse I'm not pretty enough
Speaker 2: or I'm not this enough. No, Actually, some unattractive women
Speaker 2: whose signal availability God approached more wow. And so availability
Speaker 2: actually makes you more attractive. When you think about your hair,
Speaker 2: your outfit, how you look, how you you smell, all
Speaker 2: those things are great, but they will not work if
Speaker 2: you do not know the body language signals of availability,
Speaker 2: and you have to be super clear with them. So
Speaker 2: the very first one are flirty glances are yeah, I'm
Speaker 2: gonna demo it for you. Okay, So flirty glances are
Speaker 2: typically they little gaze patterns.
Speaker 3: Is we sweep the room with our eyes, then we
Speaker 3: see someone we like.
Speaker 1: We oh yeah, nice little side glands.
Speaker 3: Yeah, like very brief.
Speaker 1: It's a look.
Speaker 2: It's a look back but then look back. Yeah, and
Speaker 2: it's a side look or a down and up look.
Speaker 2: The down and up look works really well because you're
Speaker 2: looking up through your lashes.
Speaker 3: That's a very I think Marilyn Monroe.
Speaker 2: So if you want to look at the classic example
Speaker 2: of this every good photo of Marilyn Monroe, she has
Speaker 2: her chin tilted down and she's looking up through her eyes.
Speaker 2: That is a look that we just like we just
Speaker 2: like it, that's why we like it. So it's glancing
Speaker 2: around the room and then eye contact away, eye contact away,
Speaker 2: then it's little smiles.
Speaker 3: So look and little smile.
Speaker 2: And by the way, remember it took twenty nine of these,
Speaker 2: so we got to get really comfortable with trying.
Speaker 3: And the nice thing is there's no pressure.
Speaker 2: If he doesn't return the glance, he doesn't reorthin the
Speaker 2: glans right, So eye contact smiles. Self touch is also
Speaker 2: considered a flirty glance. So like if I play with
Speaker 2: my hair or I play with my dress, that's a
Speaker 2: way of signaling our hair health. From from a evolutionary perspective,
Speaker 2: it's like, look, how healthy I am my healthy long hair.
Speaker 2: I think it's one of the reasons why we tend
Speaker 2: to like long hair. We'll also when they're flirting, they'll
Speaker 2: touch their neck, their lips, or their chin. This actually
Speaker 2: releases pheromones. So the reason why some women will touch
Speaker 2: their neck or touch their lips is because they're actually
Speaker 2: trying to release their scent. And scent is very very important.
Speaker 2: It's important in dating, but it's also important in friendships.
Speaker 2: For example, it's a little bit off the side of
Speaker 2: dating but I just want to explain why smell is
Speaker 2: so important. I just read this study and I was like, what.
Speaker 2: They had women wear white T shirts with no deodorant,
Speaker 2: no nothing, so just their natural smell for twenty four hours.
Speaker 2: They took these T shirts and they had other women
Speaker 2: smell these T shirts and rate the women on if
Speaker 2: they liked the smell. Okay, imagine your opening as the
Speaker 2: thought bag and You're smelling study. I would have loved it. Okay,
Speaker 2: I would have loved it. Sign me up for the researchers.
Speaker 2: I'm there. So they had them smell the T shirts
Speaker 2: and they had them rate them on how much they
Speaker 2: liked the smell. Then they had all the women interact
Speaker 2: in person. They didn't know who's who the smell they
Speaker 2: liked the best predicted who they liked the best in person,
Speaker 2: so they actually found their people. There is something to it.
Speaker 2: So when you're self touching like that, it's because we're
Speaker 2: trying to release this natural smell of like I'm going
Speaker 2: to probably click with you. That's why if you smell
Speaker 2: good and good is subjective, like That's why I think
Speaker 2: why sometimes you're like, oh, we're just clicking.
Speaker 3: We like each other's smell.
Speaker 2: So so being available also like releasing pheromone self touch.
Speaker 2: And then this one is not from the research, but
Speaker 2: I'm gonna really encourage you to try it. I think
Speaker 2: the best way to show availability is one word, and
Speaker 2: it sounds like this, Hey, just okay, you walk to
Speaker 2: the bathroom and you walk to the bar, you walk
Speaker 2: by them, Hey, just like that.
Speaker 3: Because look, by the way, this is for both men
Speaker 3: and women, okay, because life is too short to not hay, right,
Speaker 3: and there's no pressure.
Speaker 2: If you walk by someone in the gym, right and
Speaker 2: you're like hey, even if they have their air pods in,
Speaker 2: if they like you, they're gonna be like, hey, right.
Speaker 1: Does it matter the tone of voice, because you say
Speaker 1: it matters Hey, it's not like that's pretty good? Okay,
Speaker 1: all right, okay, so I'll do.
Speaker 2: See men men do good with a downward inflection, So
Speaker 2: like that down reflection is good. So if it goes good,
Speaker 2: the guy is gonna be like hey. If he's not
Speaker 2: into it, he's gonna.
Speaker 1: Be like hey, yeah, right.
Speaker 2: No problem, right, like cool, Hey, So it's like the
Speaker 2: most low pressure way when you're in the grocery store,
Speaker 2: when even by the way, if someone has airpots on there,
Speaker 2: it's still gonna see you go. They're going to take
Speaker 2: out their heir find and they're gonna be like, hey,
Speaker 2: So here's the difference, right, So I am using the
Speaker 2: lowest end of my natural tone. This is especially important
Speaker 2: for women, but everyone. Research finds that we decide how
Speaker 2: confident someone is within the first two hundred milliseconds of
Speaker 2: hearing them speak. Two hundred milliseconds. That means the most
Speaker 2: important word you can say really is hey.
Speaker 3: That's it.
Speaker 2: You've just signaled your confidence. Your confidence, not confidence, it's
Speaker 2: specifically confidence. Okay, so what does that mean? We are
Speaker 2: listening for relaxation and breath in the vocal cords. So
Speaker 2: right now I'm working really hard to use the lowest
Speaker 2: end of my natural voice because I know that people
Speaker 2: are listening and I want to keep them relaxed. When
Speaker 2: I get nervous, I tend to go a little higher
Speaker 2: in my vocal tone. I might get a little bit
Speaker 2: more vocal fry, and I might sound a little bit
Speaker 2: more like this. Now, if I were to do the
Speaker 2: entire interview in this tone of voice, it would drive
Speaker 2: you crazy.
Speaker 3: It's infectious. We catch it.
Speaker 2: We don't like to be around people or we could
Speaker 2: catch their anxiety. We don't want to catster anxiety. They've
Speaker 2: even found that we match the voice resonance of the
Speaker 2: most important person in the room. So when they tested people,
Speaker 2: they found that they un subconsciously their resonance matched whoever's
Speaker 2: most important person room their own resonance.
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Speaker 1: here's the thing a lot of us when you're attracted
Speaker 1: to someone, your heart rate goes up, you start breathing shallower,
Speaker 1: and you're about to say it in a like you
Speaker 1: go hey, hey, like really that's the reaction because you're
Speaker 1: so nervous.
Speaker 3: And this is why we don't have enough cups.
Speaker 1: This is the reason. Is the way were saying, yeah,
Speaker 1: h what do we do when you're like, when you're
Speaker 1: feeling that like attraction, maybe you've even built up to it.
Speaker 1: You've been going to class every day for thirty days
Speaker 1: and this guy's turning up three times. You're trying to
Speaker 1: send the queue.
Speaker 2: Yes, okay, so luckily one is. Now that you know it,
Speaker 2: it's going to be very easy for you to hear yourself.
Speaker 2: Do it so at home if you wouldn't mind trying
Speaker 2: this with me. I want you to hear the highest
Speaker 2: end of your range versus the lowest end of your range.
Speaker 2: Everyone has a natural range, So first, let's start with
Speaker 2: the highest. So take a deep breath and say hello
Speaker 2: at the top of your breath. Hello, Hello. That's our
Speaker 2: natural highest end of our range. I never want you
Speaker 2: to sound like that. I never sound like yeah, right,
Speaker 2: maybe your dog. I see people go.
Speaker 1: Hello, baby, Actually you're right to my niece and nephew.
Speaker 1: May they look at me like stuff? Talking to me
Speaker 1: like that?
Speaker 3: Babies and dogs, totally fine.
Speaker 2: Babies, dogs, that's it, because you're signaling tightness, high anxiety,
Speaker 2: and we don't want that. And by the way, this
Speaker 2: happens to everyone. We hold our breath as we're answering
Speaker 2: the phone. Hello, You've just given away all your confidence. Okay,
Speaker 2: so that's the highest. Let's try the lowest. So take
Speaker 2: a couple of deep breaths, relax your vocal cords. Relax
Speaker 2: your shoulders, relax your jaw, relax your mouth, and then
Speaker 2: I want you to say hello on the outbreath.
Speaker 3: It's gonna sound like this, Hello, Hello. That's the lowest
Speaker 3: end of your range.
Speaker 2: What happens here is when we take in breath and
Speaker 2: we speak on the outbreath, it forces our vocal cords
Speaker 2: to relax and it puts us on our lower range.
Speaker 2: So here's the difference. Here's how I want you to
Speaker 2: say hello. Let's to the phone first. So instead of Hello,
Speaker 2: I want you to go Hello. Totally different the second one. Right,
Speaker 2: So here's the bad one, Hello, that's too high, versus
Speaker 2: on the outbreath.
Speaker 3: Hello.
Speaker 2: It's still me, but I sound totally different. You would
Speaker 2: treat me differently based on those two hellos. I started
Speaker 2: off by saying, your cues change how people treat you.
Speaker 2: If you speak with confidence, people are going to treat
Speaker 2: you with more respect, and so it is critical we
Speaker 2: speak that lower tone. So when I was like hey,
Speaker 2: I didn't.
Speaker 1: Go hey, are I'm so good?
Speaker 3: So a nice low hay for both men and women.
Speaker 3: This works? And can we just hey everyone?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, I like that.
Speaker 3: Let's just do like.
Speaker 2: Life is too short to not hay a person you're like,
Speaker 2: I like their vibe. Yeah, right, Like, let's just hey everyone,
Speaker 2: and if you see me out on an airport, you
Speaker 2: just ab I'll laugh.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love. Oh that's good. I like that. I
Speaker 1: really like that because I think a lot of people
Speaker 1: listening right now they might be thinking, but I want
Speaker 1: to be accepted for who I am. What's the difference
Speaker 1: between who we are and how we choose to present ourselves?
Speaker 1: Because I think people get confused. They go, oh, but
Speaker 1: I am that kind of person who's nervous and anxious
Speaker 1: and everything, But that's not who they are.
Speaker 2: I don't believe in fake it till you make it.
Speaker 2: It's not a concept.
Speaker 3: I've ever Yeah, me neither resonated with.
Speaker 2: And so notice how I didn't say I want you
Speaker 2: to be like Elizabeth Holmes and go, hey, I can't
Speaker 2: even do it. How did she do it? She was
Speaker 2: so like she faked that low tone. No, I wanted
Speaker 2: you to find the lowest end of your natural tone.
Speaker 2: First is I don't believe and take it to you
Speaker 2: make it. Second is, I want you to sound like
Speaker 2: your most confident self. So if for you that is, hey, cool,
Speaker 2: girl cool. I'm for it, right, like I will. If
Speaker 2: that is you and that's how you go, I will
Speaker 2: take it. So I want you to feel like you.
Speaker 2: But I also want you to find your resonance point.
Speaker 2: It's called a maximum resonance point. That's speaking with. This
Speaker 2: is for both dating and work. That's speaking with this
Speaker 2: part of your voice that is open and full of
Speaker 2: power and volume and space. And don't we all want
Speaker 2: to operate that way? Like I think everyone is more
Speaker 2: themselves when they have space in their bodies, when they're
Speaker 2: taking up their space, when they have breath, and that
Speaker 2: translates to everything. Yeah, it translates to my face. It
Speaker 2: makes my face more open, It makes my job more relaxed,
Speaker 2: it makes my shoulders more relaxed. So what I'm kind
Speaker 2: of hoping is we're finding that part of you that's
Speaker 2: like ooh resonance.
Speaker 3: Yes, Like that's where presence comes from.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a great answer. And what's really good about
Speaker 1: it is also that if that person says hey, back,
Speaker 1: you're now not at this crazy level of nervousness and
Speaker 1: anxiety where you can't now you're in shock, and now
Speaker 1: you don't even have to respond. And then that ruins it.
Speaker 1: We were talking about one of my friends who's a
Speaker 1: comedian called Jared Freedi as a podcast called You Up,
Speaker 1: and there was an episode where he was talking about
Speaker 1: sometimes it's hard to spark up a conversation with someone
Speaker 1: at a class, and he was saying, it's good to
Speaker 1: just go out to someone and say something like tough class, right,
Speaker 1: like you know whatever, maybe like something to find some
Speaker 1: mutual ground before you hit it off. And I think
Speaker 1: even that saying that in this tone could help.
Speaker 2: Okay, So I love this tip. So you say hey
Speaker 2: and it's like hey, hey, cool, then you want to
Speaker 2: use it again. I like a blueprint. I need specific groundwork.
Speaker 2: I don't like to guess. So here's your next step
Speaker 2: is a context cueue. So a context cue is when
Speaker 2: you use a conversation charter. That's something that you both share.
Speaker 2: If you don't know someone, you don't know what you share.
Speaker 2: So the one thing you can share is the context
Speaker 2: you're in.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: So that could be how do you know the host?
Speaker 2: If you're at a party? Right, it could be how
Speaker 2: do you like the food? How do you like your wine? Oh,
Speaker 2: that coffee looks great? Wow, this is a tough class right,
Speaker 2: So it's something in context because actually that's a secret
Speaker 2: me too moment. So this is the next effect. So
Speaker 2: we're fighting and dating signal amplification, bias. More signals are better.
Speaker 2: You are not being obvious, right, you think you're being obvious,
Speaker 2: you're not. It takes twenty nine signals. You can count
Speaker 2: them in your head if you want. Okay, So that's
Speaker 2: the first thing we're fighting. Once we've managed that and
Speaker 2: we're really clear, the second thing we're trying to meet
Speaker 2: is a psychological effect called the similarity attraction effect. What
Speaker 2: this is is that we like people who have similar
Speaker 2: values and motivations as us. What's important about this is
Speaker 2: every time we have a me too moment like oh
Speaker 2: we have what we have that, it builds like a
Speaker 2: little string between us. Like I literally envision when I'm
Speaker 2: in conversation, like we're handing each other threads.
Speaker 3: I call it thread theory, Like we're.
Speaker 2: Handing each other threads, and the more threads that are
Speaker 2: back and forth, the more connected we are. Like that
Speaker 2: that's the visual I use. So what is the very
Speaker 2: first question I said to you when I met you outside?
Speaker 2: Was you know, I think we have some friends in common?
Speaker 2: Because I knew that that was a thread that we
Speaker 2: could be like, yes, we both love those people, and
Speaker 2: that made it just really easy. I didn't say like,
Speaker 2: how's the weather. I didn't do that, right, So, whatever
Speaker 2: you can do to create as many me too moments
Speaker 2: as possible. That could be raving about a mutual friend,
Speaker 2: that could be raving about how great this class is.
Speaker 2: That could be oh, the wine is so delicious or
Speaker 2: the wine is terrible, right like the other one. So
Speaker 2: all your entire goal in this part of the conversation
Speaker 2: is me too moments, and your question should be geared
Speaker 2: towards that, because here's where awkwardness happens. You're in a
Speaker 2: conversation and you have no goal. You're like kind of
Speaker 2: like what do you do? Where are you from? You know,
Speaker 2: and it's like these socially scripted dead end conversation starters.
Speaker 2: So instead I want your goal to be I want
Speaker 2: to them to say me too, or I want to
Speaker 2: say too. That's it, and it's very low pressure because
Speaker 2: all you're doing and then your questions have intention, right,
Speaker 2: Like if everything is on purpose, if everything is intention,
Speaker 2: then our questions are searching for similarities. And this is
Speaker 2: the last step, and this is for dating, for friendship,
Speaker 2: even a little bit for work relationships as well. The
Speaker 2: last step is can you find authentic reasons to like them?
Speaker 2: And I mean aggressively like them. I think that awkwardness
Speaker 2: the reason I was so awkward for so long, as
Speaker 2: I was asking the wrong questions and I didn't know
Speaker 2: what to listen for. The last the study completely changed
Speaker 2: my life, changed the way I interact. I was never
Speaker 2: a cool kid. I was never popular, and I believe it.
Speaker 3: That's true. It's true.
Speaker 2: I was like, I was like a triple major in
Speaker 2: college because I was just like, what can I do
Speaker 2: to distruct myself? Like I ran for student council because
Speaker 2: it was the only position that was unopposed anyway, Yeah, it.
Speaker 3: Was really cool.
Speaker 2: So I found this study that looked at the cool
Speaker 2: kids in high school and they examined thousands of kids
Speaker 2: across a variety of high schools, across variety of grades,
Speaker 2: looking for patterns why are some kids more popular than others?
Speaker 3: And the hypothesis was maybe.
Speaker 2: They're more athletic, maybe they're smarter, maybe they're more attractive,
Speaker 2: maybe they're more extroverted, maybe they were funnier.
Speaker 3: Right, those were all the things.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would think of right, there were popular kids
Speaker 2: who were those things. But the only commonality across all
Speaker 2: the grades and all the schools was that the most
Speaker 2: liked kids had the longest list of people that they liked.
Speaker 2: The most liked kids had the longest list of people
Speaker 2: that they liked, meaning they weren't going around all day
Speaker 2: trying to be funny, trying to be cool. They were
Speaker 2: going around trying to like as many people as possible.
Speaker 1: No way. One of the.
Speaker 2: Variables was to everyone had to make a list of
Speaker 2: kids they liked, and the most popular kids had the
Speaker 2: longest lists, meaning they were constantly thinking I like that
Speaker 2: about you, I like that about you.
Speaker 3: This was like relief for.
Speaker 2: Me because it meant I don't have to show up
Speaker 2: as impressive or funny or extroverted or be good at sports,
Speaker 2: cause I'm not. All I have to do is aggressively
Speaker 2: like people. So if you want to be attractive, if
Speaker 2: you want to create bonds friend wise romantic wise, what
Speaker 2: I want you to be doing is you're asking these questions,
Speaker 2: looking for me toos, and then you're thinking, how can
Speaker 2: I like this person? More like, what could I ask?
Speaker 2: What could I find out that I can authentically be
Speaker 2: like I like you and then saying it like I
Speaker 2: cannot tell you my best friendships have started when I
Speaker 2: don't play it cool.
Speaker 3: I do not believe in playing it cool. That doesn't work.
Speaker 3: I literally am like, I like you, will you be
Speaker 3: my friend?
Speaker 1: Yea?
Speaker 2: And like I have a six and a half year
Speaker 2: old and a two and a half year old daughter,
Speaker 2: and I watched them on the playground and it's funny.
Speaker 3: They're they're like this.
Speaker 2: They literally will sit in the sandbox. My daughter was like,
Speaker 2: do you like trucks? And the boy was like I
Speaker 2: like trucks and she was like I like tr I
Speaker 2: was like me too. Moment, good job, Claire. And then
Speaker 2: she was like you want to be my friend? And
Speaker 2: he was like yeah, that's it. They're friends.
Speaker 3: I was like, this is it. We actually knew how
Speaker 3: to do this as kids. It's what we used to
Speaker 3: do and we've kind of, you know, over too cool
Speaker 3: for it.
Speaker 1: I like that you did that and said that because
Speaker 1: I do the same thing. So no, literally it's exactly
Speaker 1: the same. Yeah, I know, but like you, that never happened,
Speaker 1: and I love that because to me, it's I have
Speaker 1: so many friends in La that when I met them
Speaker 1: first time, I said, I think we'd be great friends
Speaker 1: and i'd love I'd love to see if that's true.
Speaker 1: And like now seven years later, whenever we're out and everyone,
Speaker 1: how did you to me? And then my friends will
Speaker 1: always try and be poliable like oh yeah, we just
Speaker 1: met through and I'm like, no, no, no, let me
Speaker 1: tell the story. I said that I liked you and
Speaker 1: I wanted to be your friend, and I love living
Speaker 1: that way because I think it makes life so clear,
Speaker 1: It makes life so easy. Everyone knows where everyone's intentions are.
Speaker 1: And if someone is too cool for me or doesn't
Speaker 1: like that at least I know.
Speaker 2: Also like I'm I'm allergic to it. Yeah, like I
Speaker 2: don't do well with two cool people. Like if you
Speaker 2: can't even show me your liking or you're kind of
Speaker 2: wanting to put a wall up, we're not going to
Speaker 2: be good friends. Because I love level three conversations, I
Speaker 2: like vulnerability, I like oversharing, So that's like a test.
Speaker 3: Also is like I think we would be good friends.
Speaker 2: I like you, and if they're like h, I'm like cool,
Speaker 2: Like that's cool, Like I would rather take the shot
Speaker 2: than miss it. Yeah, and so I think, like, if
Speaker 2: you're listening, I think it's like, let's if you like
Speaker 2: someone like show it, search for those me two moments,
Speaker 2: and then if you like them, well, first of all,
Speaker 2: search for reasons to like them.
Speaker 3: Then if you like them, say it.
Speaker 2: That right there is like the best way to try
Speaker 2: to find your people.
Speaker 3: That's going to find them.
Speaker 1: The me too goal is of real switch because I
Speaker 1: think a lot of us when you approach someone, if
Speaker 1: you don't ask about the weather, you usually try and
Speaker 1: compliment someone, and that doesn't work. Vanessa, tell me why
Speaker 1: compliments don't work.
Speaker 2: We all want to be complimented, but it makes us
Speaker 2: feel very uncomfortab right, Like there's this weird compliment economics
Speaker 2: where it's like, please compliment me, but don't.
Speaker 3: It's weird, right, And it also it creates.
Speaker 2: An odd hierarchy a little bit where if you're complimenting someone,
Speaker 2: it separates you and also you're putting them in the
Speaker 2: position of receiving something they might not be ready for.
Speaker 2: Especially I believe in if you're going to compliment someone,
Speaker 2: compliment them on them on something that you share.
Speaker 3: Yes, right, so be like, oh my gosh, I have
Speaker 3: those shoes I love them too, right, are we twinsies?
Speaker 2: I mean, I guess men usually say twinsies, but like like,
Speaker 2: well try please try it twins ees. Just like see
Speaker 2: how your male friends respond and be like yes. So
Speaker 2: I think that if you're going to compliment comment on
Speaker 2: a shared similarity, then you can kind of celebrate together.
Speaker 2: If you're complimenting someone one way, you're actually putting them
Speaker 2: farther away from you, not closer to you.
Speaker 1: That distance in hierarchy makes so much sense, especially when
Speaker 1: someone's new. It's different if you know someone. But if
Speaker 1: you randomly go up to on someone and go, oh,
Speaker 1: I really like the color of that dress, what are
Speaker 1: they going to say and like thanks exactly?
Speaker 2: And now it's like, oh, actually, worse, worse if you
Speaker 2: were to say, oh, Vanessa, I like the color your dress.
Speaker 3: By the way, I'd be like, I like your color too.
Speaker 1: It's black.
Speaker 2: That's what happens is like you compliment someone on something
Speaker 2: and they're uncomfortable.
Speaker 3: So what I do is I'm like, I'm going.
Speaker 2: To comment you back, and I feel so an authentic
Speaker 2: right because then I'm like I don't know what to say.
Speaker 2: And by the way, if you're going to compliment someone
Speaker 2: don't compliment the tall guy I'm being tall, Like, don't
Speaker 2: compliment someone on the trade that they didn't even work on. Yes,
Speaker 2: like compmiment them on something they worked hard on.
Speaker 1: Yes, I get about my eyes all the time. That's
Speaker 1: that's the compliment. And I always say I didn't end them,
Speaker 1: So that's like that's my response because I'm like, I
Speaker 1: didn't do anything, like thanks to my parents.
Speaker 3: Like also like what do you do? Then you're like,
Speaker 3: I'm like your eyes.
Speaker 2: Too, and the persons like they're black exactly, And then
Speaker 2: you're stuck.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're stuck. And that's what I like about your goal.
Speaker 1: I really really liked that advice, and I hope everyone
Speaker 1: uses it. We're trying to get a me too, and
Speaker 1: you have to have a goal to every conversation. The
Speaker 1: gold cannot be. Let me get to the next question,
Speaker 1: which is usually where we get stuck, which is like
Speaker 1: I'm just going to live in this like jumping relationship
Speaker 1: between vices. Yeah yeah, yeah it's and it's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: where did you grow up, what do you do for work?
Speaker 1: Do you have any siblings?
Speaker 2: Like all these questions that just okay, so let's let's
Speaker 2: let's play this out let's go even deeper. So let's
Speaker 2: say that someone's doing that to you. Okay, So there's
Speaker 2: two sides of a conversation. All my students are high achievers,
Speaker 2: very smart, a little awkward. Sometimes those are my people.
Speaker 2: So what happens is they work on their people skills.
Speaker 2: They're like yeah, VanNess, like, I got it, I got
Speaker 2: I got the Contextcuse I got my conversations. I'm available
Speaker 2: whether it's in work or at play. And then they're
Speaker 2: with someone who's doing that to them. Right, You're with
Speaker 2: someone who's like, so, where are you from? You have
Speaker 2: a lot of siblings. Okay, So here's how you break
Speaker 2: that social script. One is I want you to think
Speaker 2: of what are the three questions that you're asked most?
Speaker 2: So I have the same questions I'm asked over and
Speaker 2: over and in social social settings, and it's usually what
Speaker 2: do you do? Where are you from? How did you
Speaker 2: get into that line of work? That's a big one
Speaker 2: I get.
Speaker 3: Okay.
Speaker 2: So the biggest mistake you can make is you are
Speaker 2: bored by those answers and you show it. Oh, I'm
Speaker 2: from La. It's like right, It's like, yes, yes, I'm
Speaker 2: from La. But it ends the conversation. So I want
Speaker 2: you to think of what's a way that you could
Speaker 2: answer that question that gives a hook or a story
Speaker 2: or it's a funny moment and it is a bridge
Speaker 2: to you asking them something else back. How can you
Speaker 2: answer those questions that's going to slightly shift or transform
Speaker 2: the conversation and makes you more charismatic. So I even think, like,
Speaker 2: if someone would ask you how are you, you can
Speaker 2: answer it, oh, seven out of ten today, right, or
Speaker 2: like better on the inside than the outside, right, like
Speaker 2: whatever it is, like just like break the script. So
Speaker 2: if you break the script with something purposeful and you're like, okay,
Speaker 2: when someone and ask me where I'm from and I
Speaker 2: say LA, I know I don't want to talk about La.
Speaker 3: I moved for a reason.
Speaker 2: I live in Austin texts now, and I want to
Speaker 2: talk about something else. So what I will often say is,
Speaker 2: you know, I'm from LA and about six years ago
Speaker 2: I moved to Austin, Texas, and now I'm a cowgirl
Speaker 2: and I wear cowo boots and that's like my thing.
Speaker 2: And then we get into a whole much more interesting
Speaker 2: conversation about cowgirls or Austin whatever they are interested and
Speaker 2: then I'm looking for me too.
Speaker 3: Yes, right, Oh, I've been to Austin. I love oh
Speaker 3: yeah talking about Austin. Do you like tacos?
Speaker 2: I like tacos too, right, so like it weaves and
Speaker 2: so on? Are the three questions you get asked the
Speaker 2: most often? And what are three answers that you can
Speaker 2: use to get you to more me too moments that
Speaker 2: authentically like them? The other thing you can do My
Speaker 2: last when I'm like out, I've been trying and trying
Speaker 2: to steer is I will play verbal games. And I've
Speaker 2: actually never talked about this on a podcast before, but
Speaker 2: we're gonna see how this sounds. But I really do this,
Speaker 2: which is I love guessing games like I love them.
Speaker 2: So if someone's like, how many siblings do you have,
Speaker 2: I'll be.
Speaker 1: Like guess good, And.
Speaker 2: I am so curious what they say, because then first
Speaker 2: of all, people are like what like They're like surprised
Speaker 2: that I have I'm like, guess what do you think
Speaker 2: I am I'm.
Speaker 1: Going to say because I don't know, I'm going to
Speaker 1: guess that you have one sibling. I was gonna three, no, way, five, four?
Speaker 1: So I have.
Speaker 2: I have an older brother and three younger sisters and
Speaker 2: so you can guess, and so that already makes it
Speaker 2: way more playful, right, It's always fun.
Speaker 3: Like if someone guesses I'm an only, I'm.
Speaker 1: Like, how dare you?
Speaker 3: How dare you?
Speaker 2: But then we talk about only and then I, instead
Speaker 2: of asking them back, I say, can I guess yours?
Speaker 2: And like sometimes I get it right, And by the way,
Speaker 2: that feels really good. Oh gosh, I don't know oldest. No,
Speaker 2: I don't don't answer.
Speaker 3: I just ye, sorry, get real the conversation the youngest, youngest?
Speaker 3: You mean, are you the youngest?
Speaker 1: I'm the oldest. I have one youngest.
Speaker 2: Okay, so I so it's just like fun to play
Speaker 2: the game and then it's kind of like guess and
Speaker 2: then I can be like, oh I didn't I didn't
Speaker 2: peg you. I was thinking oldest or youngest, So you
Speaker 2: can kind of have the back and forth. It totally
Speaker 2: changes the dynamics of the conversation. And so that's my
Speaker 2: last resort is you can play game with I love that.
Speaker 2: I also love like if I got this actually from Twitter,
Speaker 2: and it totally works. If it says someone says they're
Speaker 2: from something, so where are you from?
Speaker 1: I'm from London?
Speaker 3: The windy City. But I always say the windy city.
Speaker 3: It's I don't even know.
Speaker 2: I don't know, but you just like you can make
Speaker 2: like funny responses back and then people and you have
Speaker 2: a bandit. It just broke the script, right, Like being
Speaker 2: a little playful and conversation also can create me to
Speaker 2: moments because you'll find your person. Yes, right, Like I
Speaker 2: try to be funny occasionally, and if you laugh at
Speaker 2: my jokes, we're going to be If you don't laugh
Speaker 2: at my jokes, it's not going to go well.
Speaker 1: But what I love about that is we often put
Speaker 1: so much pressure on people to be interesting and pressure
Speaker 1: on ourselves to be interesting, and we think it's about
Speaker 1: having this unique conversation start, or this amazing point of
Speaker 1: view or this debate that you know. I feel like
Speaker 1: we put so much pressure, like we've got to start
Speaker 1: giving a ted talk to the person sitting next to us,
Speaker 1: and actually that disengages them. I love the guessing game.
Speaker 1: I think it applies to any of those three questions
Speaker 1: you just share, where do you come from, where do
Speaker 1: you live? Now? All of that, and it makes it
Speaker 1: so much more fun and you get a sense of
Speaker 1: what someone's personality is and I like the interactivity. It's
Speaker 1: almost like, I'm sure you feel this way when you're
Speaker 1: on stage a lot and you're talking to an audience.
Speaker 1: My least favorite thing is someone saying, give a sixty
Speaker 1: minute keynote and don't engage the audience in the conversation,
Speaker 1: because all of a sudden, it's one way. And I
Speaker 1: think that's what we think interesting conversations sound like, where
Speaker 1: we can just talk about our lives and come across interesting.
Speaker 2: I also think it's so much pressure to be interesting
Speaker 2: because what is interesting is different for different people, and
Speaker 2: so if you're trying to be interesting, it's worse than
Speaker 2: fake it to you make it. It's what do I
Speaker 2: have to do to perform for you? And I don't
Speaker 2: think interactions should be a performance. They should be intentional
Speaker 2: and you're building towards something, which is do I belong?
Speaker 3: Do I feel accepted by you?
Speaker 2: And this is like a question that I want everyone
Speaker 2: to ask themselves, especially when you think about those first
Speaker 2: impression words. Sometimes people who trigger you badly it's because
Speaker 2: you don't feel safe. I don't mean necessarily physically safe,
Speaker 2: I mean emotionally safe, where there's topics that you're a
Speaker 2: little scared to bring up, or there's things you walk
Speaker 2: on eggshells because you just don't know how that's going
Speaker 2: to go. And so the other tests you have as
Speaker 2: you're doing this back and forth you're getting to know them,
Speaker 2: is do I feel safe to share my real answer?
Speaker 2: Do I feel safe to answer something that's not on
Speaker 2: script that's like not what everyone else would in answer?
Speaker 3: Do I feel safe to not be interesting? Right?
Speaker 2: Like, if we have this pressure interesting, it's a performance.
Speaker 2: If you're like, I'm just going to answer and like
Speaker 2: this may or may not like click with you, then
Speaker 2: that's the ultimate belonging.
Speaker 1: I think, yeah, yeah, what if what if you're in
Speaker 1: one of these conversations and you want it to end?
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, well, like you just like I want this
Speaker 1: to end. I've been looking around. I'm trying to just
Speaker 1: edge towards the door, like side stack. I'm trying to
Speaker 1: figure it out. But like, this guy's hitting on me,
Speaker 1: this girl's talking to me, this person's just wasting my time.
Speaker 1: I'm in this bar, I'm in this gym.
Speaker 2: What I do this is called the art of a
Speaker 2: graceful exit, and it is a skill. You have to
Speaker 2: learn it because there's going to be times when you're
Speaker 2: just not with your person and that's okay, okay, So
Speaker 2: here's what you do. It's three steps, okay. Set number
Speaker 2: one is you begin to nonverbally signal that you want out. Okay,
Speaker 2: so we're we kind of subconsciously pick up on these cues.
Speaker 2: So first is you want to point your toes towards
Speaker 2: the door. When we're aligned with someone, we typically angle
Speaker 2: our toes towards the person. When we're not into someone,
Speaker 2: we typically angle our body and our toes outwards. Funny
Speaker 2: anecdote here is we also tend to angle our toes
Speaker 2: towards the person we have a crush on, or the
Speaker 2: most interesting person in the room. So whenever I'm like
Speaker 2: at office parties, I can almost always decide the office
Speaker 2: crushes because people will subconsciously, even if they're in conversation,
Speaker 2: they'll be pouring towards the person they like the most.
Speaker 2: So when you move your toes towards the door, it's
Speaker 2: just it subtly indicates that your body is angled outwards.
Speaker 2: And then I also want you to make less eye
Speaker 2: contact right, so that could be an overhead gaze. I
Speaker 2: would never normally do this in a good conversation, but
Speaker 2: you want to subtly signal to someone I need to
Speaker 2: break right, I need to break off. So then you're
Speaker 2: overhead gazing. You're going to glance at the door or
Speaker 2: the bathroom. That is also another very small signal, Uh,
Speaker 2: I'm disengaged.
Speaker 3: Okay.
Speaker 2: So that's one is non verbally signal. Second is you're
Speaker 2: going to use verbal cues. The thing that I want
Speaker 2: you to do is ask for future plans. When someone
Speaker 2: is in a conversation, they're very present. When I would
Speaker 2: like to go, I'll be like.
Speaker 3: What's your plan tomorrow? Yes, got me a big plan
Speaker 3: for the weekend.
Speaker 2: Because wait, this is step in them three. They're gonna
Speaker 2: then answer, you know, what is their plan tomorrow?
Speaker 3: What is not for the weekend.
Speaker 2: They'll be like, well, have so much fun tomorrow or
Speaker 2: this weekend. It was so great talking to you, and
Speaker 2: I'll see you later.
Speaker 3: Three steps.
Speaker 2: The final step is just wish them well on those
Speaker 2: future plans, thank them for the conversation, give a handshake
Speaker 2: or a high five, and then say I'll see you later.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's great because you can't always just be like, oh,
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna go get dessert, because you might not
Speaker 1: be you coming.
Speaker 3: I'll come with you.
Speaker 1: I'll come with you. The nightmare reaction. Yeah, why did
Speaker 1: I say that? Oh you're not leaving the part yet.
Speaker 1: You just want to talk to someone else.
Speaker 2: And look, I'm radically honest. There are times at parties,
Speaker 2: well I will say to someone, you know, it's been
Speaker 2: so great speaking to you. I kind of want to
Speaker 2: make the rounds or some really cool people here.
Speaker 3: Can we chat later?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 3: Like that's okay too, right if.
Speaker 1: You pop confident with that.
Speaker 2: But the few the three steps works, it's like very seamless.
Speaker 2: And then there's one other non verbal queue which I'm
Speaker 2: gonna teach you that you sparingly. But nodding makes a
Speaker 2: difference with the amount that people speaks. So research shows
Speaker 2: that a slow triple nod one, two, three makes the
Speaker 2: other person speak sixty seven percent longer.
Speaker 3: Yeah. So if you're in a conversation and you're going m.
Speaker 2: You're literally telling them non verbally, tell me more, just
Speaker 2: keep on talking. So if you don't, So, if you're
Speaker 2: a good conversation you like what they're saying, please use
Speaker 2: a triple nod.
Speaker 3: It's great, Like you do.
Speaker 2: It a lot of the interviewer I love it because
Speaker 2: then it makes me keep going. But if you're like,
Speaker 2: I don't want this person to keep talking, stop nodding,
Speaker 2: stop nodding, because you're subtly encouraging them, And then you
Speaker 2: could also try a fast triple nod. So a slow
Speaker 2: triple nod shows engagement, a fast triple nod shows I'm done.
Speaker 2: It's like this, So here's a good one versus y, Right,
Speaker 2: just like a subtle way being like got it, got it,
Speaker 2: wrap it up, I got it, I got it. So,
Speaker 2: just like subtle, you don't want to offend anyone sixty
Speaker 2: seven longer.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that makes so much sense. I do in the
Speaker 1: podcast all the time. And I've actually been in podcasts
Speaker 1: where the interviewer, some interview is a trained not to
Speaker 1: nod a tool, and I find it really hard to
Speaker 1: talk to someone like me where I have to talk,
Speaker 1: and yeah, if I speak to someone who's not nodding
Speaker 1: a tool, I find it really challenging.
Speaker 2: It's so this is a really important thing is when
Speaker 2: we're talking about cues, there's a cycle. It goes decode,
Speaker 2: en code, internalize, So your sending me cues that is
Speaker 2: called encoding. So encoding is sending signals to someone else.
Speaker 2: You're sending me signals of warmth. Nodding is a warmth queue.
Speaker 2: Head tilting is a warmth cue, right, So that's warmth.
Speaker 2: So you encode me that signal. I decode it. Ah,
Speaker 2: he likes his answer. I internalize it. Keep talking, And
Speaker 2: so this cycle goes on and on. If someone is
Speaker 2: stoic or mute or they under signal, it kind of
Speaker 2: breaks that cycle and it isolates the other person. I
Speaker 2: work with a lot of leaders, and there they wonder
Speaker 2: why their team doesn't like, oh, put up to them,
Speaker 2: or why they're seen as intimidating or cold, and it's
Speaker 2: because they are under signaling. They're not sending enough warmth
Speaker 2: signals to make other person feel like there's this connection.
Speaker 2: The other way that decoding, encoding, internalizing works is negative cues.
Speaker 2: So muting is one. It stops the cycle. Positive is
Speaker 2: a next where we're like, ah, this is going well.
Speaker 2: Negative is the other one. So there was a research
Speaker 2: study they wanted to know if how negative cues affect
Speaker 2: someone's physiology. So they devise a little experiment where they
Speaker 2: had a participant walk into a room of a bunch
Speaker 2: of other people and they had someone in the room
Speaker 2: a confederate signal a sign of social rejection. So a
Speaker 2: social rejection que is an irol, it's a scoff right,
Speaker 2: it's like a a lip purse. They had them signal
Speaker 2: this towards this unsuspecting participant, and what they found was
Speaker 2: once the participant the moment they spotted the social rejection queue,
Speaker 2: their own field of vision increased, their pupils dilated. What
Speaker 2: happens when when our pupils dilate is we can take
Speaker 2: more of our environment, Like are literally their field of
Speaker 2: vision increased? Why if we see a Q of social rejection,
Speaker 2: our brain is like, oh is anyone else signaling social rejection?
Speaker 2: What did I do wrong? And where's my escape route?
Speaker 2: Meaning that if we spot a negative queue, it changes
Speaker 2: our body. Yes, So if you're in an interview or
Speaker 2: on a date and you're like, I don't I don't
Speaker 2: some I don't feel great about this, listen to that
Speaker 2: because that is your body language reading part of your
Speaker 2: mind that picked up on a negative queue that your
Speaker 2: brain doesn't like. It could have been a subtle Q
Speaker 2: social rejection. It could have been a vocal cue chaine
Speaker 2: that you didn't notice. It could be a negative facial
Speaker 2: expression or gesture. So, for example, in that study they
Speaker 2: were doing social rejection cues, but they even found if
Speaker 2: someone flashes a fear micro expression at you, so they
Speaker 2: widen the whites of their eyes, and like that, we
Speaker 2: catch the fear like our own amygdala begins to fire.
Speaker 2: And so if you feel uneasy with someone, listen to it,
Speaker 2: because it means that your body has picked up on
Speaker 2: some thing that it did not like that was a threat,
Speaker 2: and you should dig deeper into that.
Speaker 1: So let's say you were at the gym, you said hey,
Speaker 1: they said hey, back. You ended up going on a
Speaker 1: couple of dates. Right, You've graduated from the gym to
Speaker 1: a restaurant or a coffee shop or whatever, and now
Speaker 1: you're on a date with that person and you're trying
Speaker 1: to figure out whether they're lying or telling the truth.
Speaker 1: You're trying to figure out whether you feel good around
Speaker 1: them or not, and you don't really figure that out
Speaker 1: until third or fourth day. Anyway, you don't really know enough.
Speaker 1: You're not getting enough cues, going back to your point,
Speaker 1: especially if you're spending time with people in a very
Speaker 1: limited environment. So if you're seeing someone in a coffee shop,
Speaker 1: or a restaurant or going to the movies or whatever
Speaker 1: it may be. You're seeing them for one and a
Speaker 1: half hours, two hours, and it's controlled. You started to
Speaker 1: spend more time with them. What are the negative cues
Speaker 1: we miss because we're infatuated or attracted to someone.
Speaker 2: The research shows that it takes two hundred hours to
Speaker 2: become close friends with someone, so a soulmate or a partner,
Speaker 2: it's even more. That's a lot of hours, and we
Speaker 2: tend to make very big decisions about a relationship in
Speaker 2: the first six hours.
Speaker 3: Not enough.
Speaker 2: And so what you said was really important is first,
Speaker 2: is I want you to get off script. Coffee shops, restaurants,
Speaker 2: those are very controlled environments. They've probably done those dates
Speaker 2: a lot. I want you to get off script. I
Speaker 2: want you to do what I call the car challenge,
Speaker 2: which is I want you to drive somewhere an hour
Speaker 2: away with them.
Speaker 1: Oh wow, it's a lot of trust.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Well, so you've had three or four dates, right, and
Speaker 2: you're like to be say, I feel safe. Right, So,
Speaker 2: but you're like, is this clicking?
Speaker 3: Are we clicking?
Speaker 2: You might just be on script. It might be like
Speaker 2: just it it's two vanilla. It's to the same or
Speaker 2: maybe you are picking up on something. So the road
Speaker 2: trip challenge is when you pick somewhere an hour away
Speaker 2: that's a different activity. It could be hiking, it could
Speaker 2: be pick a ball, could be art class, it could
Speaker 2: be a wine tasting, anything that's not restaurant or coffee shop,
Speaker 2: normal things. You have an hour there about it our
Speaker 2: activity to our activity an hour back. You're going to
Speaker 2: find out in that setting how they drive or how
Speaker 2: they listen to you, how they stop, stop and get gas,
Speaker 2: stop and pick up some snacks. Like we're trying to
Speaker 2: see them in a lot of different environments. How do
Speaker 2: they treat people, how do they treat your space? You
Speaker 2: want to see them off script, that's the very first thing.
Speaker 2: Then you're going to be looking for what I call
Speaker 2: cues of inauthenticity. Cues of inauthenticity is when you're verbal
Speaker 2: does not match your nonverbal And this is what liars do.
Speaker 2: So we do a lot of light detection sides of
Speaker 2: people because I'm fascinated by what are the cues that
Speaker 2: humans do when they're not telling the truth. And all
Speaker 2: of the light detection cues are when there's incongruence, it
Speaker 2: means someone is saying something but they're not showing it.
Speaker 2: So nodding is a good example of this. So we've
Speaker 2: found we have a little game we play with people
Speaker 2: in our lab where we ask them two truths and
Speaker 2: a lie. Share two truths about yourself on one lie.
Speaker 2: Sometimes people will say yes but shake their head no,
Speaker 2: or say no but shake their head yes. That's an incongruence,
Speaker 2: and liars will often do this. So you'll ask, you know,
Speaker 2: so what do you think of the new girl? You know,
Speaker 2: she's she's great, And they're shaking their head no, but
Speaker 2: they're saying yes. There's a hesitation there, but we don't
Speaker 2: even notice it. But once you start to look out
Speaker 2: for it, you'll start to see these incongruents.
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm like, I do that,
Speaker 1: see now the people do it like you know, you
Speaker 1: just yeah, wow.
Speaker 2: And also could be doubt, right, like someone someone could
Speaker 2: not know if they like the girl or not, so
Speaker 2: they're kind of yeah, kind of sort of right by
Speaker 2: the way India, Bulgaria and Pakistan, nodding is a little
Speaker 2: bit different, very different for sure, right, So I just
Speaker 2: like to make that note. So looking for incongruits, they're
Speaker 2: saying I'm happy, but they're not showing happy like a
Speaker 2: fake smile, for example, is a real smile when we
Speaker 2: reach all the way up into these upper cheek muscles.
Speaker 2: So when I'm smiling all the way, I get these
Speaker 2: crows feet.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 2: If someone says to you, oh, I'm so happy for you,
Speaker 2: dead on the top right, too much botox, either one.
Speaker 3: That's getting harder. It's making my job harder. It's making
Speaker 3: my job harder that you.
Speaker 2: Know, oh, there's not real happiness here. And this happens
Speaker 2: a lot in dating when you'll say your truth, you'll
Speaker 2: say your passion or your value or your love, and
Speaker 2: they'll go, oh, that's nice, and they're giving you a
Speaker 2: fake smile. They're saying that's verbally okay, and your brain goes, uh,
Speaker 2: that's oftentimes your body has picked up on ooh they
Speaker 2: said it was good, but I didn't feel it was good.
Speaker 2: So you're looking for incongruent cues or clues that someone
Speaker 2: is not stating what they actually feel. And when you're
Speaker 2: off script, you see way more of them. Yeah, you
Speaker 2: see way way more of them. I also think there's
Speaker 2: some cues that we can't read. For example, we catch
Speaker 2: fear through smell. So I mentioned the smell before. This
Speaker 2: is a study that completely blew my mind. They brought
Speaker 2: people into their lab. They sold them up into different groups.
Speaker 2: They had them wear sweatsuits like suits that caught their sweat.
Speaker 2: The first group had to run on the treadmill, the
Speaker 2: second group skydiveage for the first time. They had two
Speaker 2: collections of sweat. They had treadmill sweat and fear sweat.
Speaker 2: Then they had unsuspecting participants in an fMRI machine smell
Speaker 2: these two sweat samples. I had no idea if they
Speaker 2: were smelling gross, right, I hope they paid them well.
Speaker 3: So gross.
Speaker 2: People who smelled the fear sweat caught the fear. They
Speaker 2: smelled this random thing, and their own amygdala began to
Speaker 2: light up. They began to feel afraid. So sometimes when
Speaker 2: you're with someone and you're like, I just feel so uneasy,
Speaker 2: there's also this unreadable aspect. But I want you to
Speaker 2: listen to it. Because our brains are so smart. They
Speaker 2: are working to protect us. And so if you you're
Speaker 2: like I feel off, that's your alarm belts. It's probably
Speaker 2: your amygdala signaling something does not feel right here.
Speaker 1: Gosh I cannot believe you can tell that much from
Speaker 1: sense smell.
Speaker 2: Oh, it's coming, that's the studies are coming. I cannot
Speaker 2: wait for these old factory last.
Speaker 1: Now that's what anyone's gonna do. I'm into it.
Speaker 2: I'm into it, like if someone runs by me, I'm like,
Speaker 2: I want to smell.
Speaker 3: I want to smell. I think it's important.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but how much obviously, how much does how much
Speaker 1: do you perfumes help people live?
Speaker 2: So all these studies are based on natural body sense.
Speaker 2: In these studies, they make them more plain white T shirt.
Speaker 2: They don't let them more to good or anything like that,
Speaker 2: so it's natural smell. I actually think that sometimes too
Speaker 2: much coliner perfume is like masking. Like I don't know,
Speaker 2: if you've ever been with someone we were like, whoa,
Speaker 2: it's too much.
Speaker 3: I don't like it.
Speaker 2: I think in dating, actually you should underscent, like let
Speaker 2: your natural scentse.
Speaker 1: Yeah. It's really funny because yeah, yeah, my wife's Stepani
Speaker 1: into like natural essential oils. She won't really use any
Speaker 1: of and I'm happy with that. But then I have
Speaker 1: one cologne that I love that she hates but everyone
Speaker 1: else in the world loves. But she likes my natural scent,
Speaker 1: but she doesn't want me to. Yeah, it's an interesting one,
Speaker 1: but everywhere else ago ever friend loves it. So I'm like,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna keep sprying this.
Speaker 3: My gosh, you're like white for other people's Sorry.
Speaker 1: Yeah, my wife loves me already. But you know what's
Speaker 1: really interesting about that is I think sometimes we all
Speaker 1: know that. I know that there's a big difference between
Speaker 1: what you're sharing and teaching and people pleasing. There's a
Speaker 1: big difference. But to the untrained eye, it's a fine
Speaker 1: line where people are now trying to get a reaction,
Speaker 1: and therefore they're starting to say things that they may
Speaker 1: not mean, which is not what you're suggesting at all.
Speaker 2: I also think, like I look at people pleasing as
Speaker 2: our deep desire to be liked. It is so safe
Speaker 2: for us to be liked, and so when I look
Speaker 2: at the research, so research from Prince University found that
Speaker 2: as humans, we are trying to answer two basic questions
Speaker 2: about other human beings. Can I trust you? And can
Speaker 2: I rely on you? We are constantly trying to assess
Speaker 2: people's warmth and competence. Warmth and competence makes up eighty
Speaker 2: two percent of our judgments of people eighty two percent,
Speaker 2: and so warmth is actually we're talking about here in
Speaker 2: that most people have an imbalance of warmth and competence.
Speaker 2: We're very high and warmth maybe not as high in comptence,
Speaker 2: or we're signaling a lot of warmth but not signaling
Speaker 2: enough competence. Highly warm folks people who are off the
Speaker 2: charts in warmth. Their primary desire is to be liked.
Speaker 2: Highly competent folks. This is a lot of my students.
Speaker 2: They want to be right. So a highly competent person,
Speaker 2: they're very at work, they want to be on agenda.
Speaker 2: They want to get it right. You know you're in
Speaker 2: a relationship with a highly competent person if they constantly
Speaker 2: google fact check you right. They're less concerned about you
Speaker 2: liking them, but they just want to make sure they
Speaker 2: get the facts right. A highly warm person wants you
Speaker 2: to like them, which means they often sacrifice their credibility
Speaker 2: to be liked. That is actually what people pleasing is.
Speaker 2: In my opinion, I think people pleasing is someone who goes,
Speaker 2: I so want to be liked that I'm willing to
Speaker 2: throw my competence out the window just so that you
Speaker 2: like me. They're sacrificing the need to be liked for
Speaker 2: their need to be respected. I say to people pleasers
Speaker 2: what true communication is is showcasing both be both liked
Speaker 2: and respected. You can be both friendly and credible. You
Speaker 2: can be assertive and also be nice. One of my
Speaker 2: most popular videos is a Nice Person's Guy to be
Speaker 2: assertive because you don't have to sacrifice one for the other.
Speaker 2: And so for my people pleaser is what I would
Speaker 2: say is your goal, sure is to be liked, but
Speaker 2: it's also to make sure that people respect who you
Speaker 2: are and your values. So if you're having conversations with
Speaker 2: me two moments, what you're actually doing.
Speaker 3: Is do you value that? Do I value that? Great,
Speaker 3: we both value it.
Speaker 2: When it becomes inauthentic, when I think we get into
Speaker 2: even like manipulation, is I don't like that, and I'm
Speaker 2: going to pretend I do. Yeah, Right, when someone has
Speaker 2: a fake me too moment, like I was just watching
Speaker 2: an episode of The Kardashians and they were interviewing someone
Speaker 2: in our job interview this is the biggest problem in
Speaker 2: job interviews. And they ask him do you use quick books?
Speaker 2: And he was like yeah, and they said, what do
Speaker 2: you use quick books? For and he was like quick booking,
Speaker 2: like he did not know, yeah quick, And that was
Speaker 2: inauthentic because he wanted to be liked. He wanted to
Speaker 2: say he had it. He should have just said no,
Speaker 2: I haven't met I'm a fast learner.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: When I think people pleasers get into trouble is they
Speaker 2: pretend they like something that they don't, and that is manipulative,
Speaker 2: but also it doesn't serve you or them.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and we do it, and people do it to us, right,
Speaker 1: like if we're all honest, like everyone kind of does it.
Speaker 1: Someone may overtly do on a date, especially especially in
Speaker 1: the beginning, yes, and then you realize afterwards that they
Speaker 1: didn't really know what that was or loved that type
Speaker 1: of food.
Speaker 2: Or you accidentally have lied yes, and they pick up
Speaker 2: on your line.
Speaker 3: Yeah right, So you're like I love cats. I love them.
Speaker 2: Now I'm allergic to cats, but I'm like, I just
Speaker 2: love a cat, and the other person's like ooh, and
Speaker 2: they got this signal in their body that was like
Speaker 2: I don't I don't know about this person, but actually
Speaker 2: it was because you were just trying to be likable
Speaker 2: and I would much rather you say, you know what,
Speaker 2: I love.
Speaker 3: The idea of cats too.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I'm allergic, right, And then everyone laughs and
Speaker 2: it's okay, right, And if that's a deal breaker for them,
Speaker 2: wouldn't you rather know, Like in dating especially, I would
Speaker 2: rather you create allergies for the person.
Speaker 3: So my approach to dating.
Speaker 2: I have a couple of single friends is I'm like,
Speaker 2: don't be liked by everyone. Don't have a profile or
Speaker 2: go on a first date and try to be the
Speaker 2: most liked person. In fact, if you have things that
Speaker 2: really matter to you, share them up front. I had
Speaker 2: a friend who was trying to date and I was
Speaker 2: having a lot of trouble and I'm like, what are
Speaker 2: you putting in your profile about you? And it was
Speaker 2: the most vague generic, like I love beaches.
Speaker 3: It's like everybody likes a bach, Like everybody likes that.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: She had all the very and I said, get really specific,
Speaker 2: you know, like you love beaches, but what do you hate?
Speaker 3: Yeah, she's like I hate camping?
Speaker 2: Like say it, Like, why even go on a date
Speaker 2: with a guy who loves camping?
Speaker 3: That's not going to be you.
Speaker 2: And so I think that if you don't like something,
Speaker 2: if you're looking for me two moments and a not
Speaker 2: me too moment comes up. What an opportunity, Yes, you
Speaker 2: have an opportunity to be super authentic and be maybe
Speaker 2: a little bit funny and still accept them for who
Speaker 2: they are, but realize, okay, we're not gonna drive on that.
Speaker 2: If that's a deal breaker for you, wouldn't you rather
Speaker 2: know it?
Speaker 1: Yeah? And it starts a great conversation too. I think
Speaker 1: that's the point that you think you're gonna suddenly take
Speaker 1: away the energy from a conversation, But if you have
Speaker 1: an interesting point of view, you have a different direction
Speaker 1: to take it. It can be great.
Speaker 2: Some of my closest friends we tease each other about
Speaker 2: our biggest differences, right like that becomes a beautiful friendship too.
Speaker 2: So I think that's where people pleasers get in trouble
Speaker 2: and they feel bad about themselves because then what happens
Speaker 2: at the end, they feel unliked and like nothing's worse
Speaker 2: than feeling unlovable or unlikable.
Speaker 1: Totally. I want to go into the part you mentioned
Speaker 1: their manipulation because I think people who are charismatic and
Speaker 1: narcissists often have quite similar traits, or at least today
Speaker 1: we talk about them in that way and it's hard
Speaker 1: because some people just have that power and control and
Speaker 1: feel like they're almost moving everyone else around like their pawns.
Speaker 1: And often it can be quite magnetic. We can be
Speaker 1: quite drawn to it at first because it feels, yeah,
Speaker 1: it feels like there's awe in reverence and there's this
Speaker 1: feeling of wow, you blow me away and you have
Speaker 1: so much magnetic energy, only to realize it was manipulation
Speaker 1: and narcissm. How do we tell the difference between charisma
Speaker 1: and narcissism.
Speaker 2: This is why I like the car test is typically
Speaker 2: narcissess have a pattern. Narciss blow you away with their charisma.
Speaker 2: At first, you are just in awe. They know how
Speaker 2: to signal warmth and competence. They're finding me to a
Speaker 2: moment you're like, wow, I'm clicking. And their confidence is contagious.
Speaker 2: We love to be around highly confident people, which often
Speaker 2: narcists are very confident. So in that first hour two
Speaker 2: three hours we're blown away. Then typically they go one
Speaker 2: of two ways. The first way is narcissis if they
Speaker 2: don't get what they want even a little bit, they
Speaker 2: go into victim mode. So there's a misunderstanding about narcissis,
Speaker 2: which is that they're always confident. When a narciss doesn't
Speaker 2: get what they want or doesn't get what they feel
Speaker 2: they deserve, and listen for that word with narciss I
Speaker 2: don't deserve this kind of treatment. I deserve something better,
Speaker 2: I'm worth more. Be very aware of those words. If
Speaker 2: they don't feel like they get what they deserve it,
Speaker 2: or they're not getting what they're worth, they become victims.
Speaker 2: Listen for that victim language because narcissists will sometimes be
Speaker 2: very charismatic, but they're playing the victim card, and the
Speaker 2: victim card is really dangerous because then it's everyone else's
Speaker 2: fault and then all of a sudden, you're enabling it.
Speaker 2: You're like, well, I have to protect you. You're so charismatic.
Speaker 2: And that's how they are manipulative with people, is they
Speaker 2: play the victim card and you want to protect them.
Speaker 2: So be very careful of that dynamic, because I think
Speaker 2: that we often are like.
Speaker 3: Well, she's not a narcissist, she's suffering, she needs my help.
Speaker 2: That is often actually a narcissist is they're playing the
Speaker 2: victim because they want your help and that makes them
Speaker 2: feel good. That's one pattern. The second pattern is that
Speaker 2: narciss can be high conflict people. A high conflict person
Speaker 2: is they're very charismatic and they blow you away with
Speaker 2: their charisma, but they create all these little disagreements fights,
Speaker 2: They create conflict around them, and they step and they
Speaker 2: back up and they go, I don't know, I don't
Speaker 2: know how that happened. But they're constantly stirring or stoking conflict.
Speaker 2: Watch out for that. Yeah, that's the other reason why
Speaker 2: those car trips, getting out of restaurants and coffee shops
Speaker 2: is it's very easy to not have conflict in those
Speaker 2: very controlled settings. But if someone cuts you off on
Speaker 2: the road, or someone short changes you, or someone's late,
Speaker 2: you get to see, oh wow, they play victim or
Speaker 2: they're creating conflict where there doesn't really need to be conflicts.
Speaker 2: And then when they're brainstorming in the car, because there's
Speaker 2: something that happens when you're next to someone, I think
Speaker 2: they verbalize differently. Like typically women like to diead have
Speaker 2: conversation like this face to face. Men sometimes like to
Speaker 2: have conversations side by side. It's why they like talking
Speaker 2: it at a bar because they're side by side. They
Speaker 2: like talking on a walk or a hike. They like
Speaker 2: talking in a car. So sometimes if you're next to
Speaker 2: someone and they're just driving, or you're driving and they're listening,
Speaker 2: they'll say things they wouldn't normally say in a in
Speaker 2: a face to faced eye ad and you might hear, oh,
Speaker 2: that's interesting those patterns. I didn't know that you felt
Speaker 2: that way about that thing. And so you want to
Speaker 2: make sure that you're looking for those secret patterns of manipulators,
Speaker 2: not just the obvious ones.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that I mean that what you just said there
Speaker 1: about the way we sit and speak to people. It's
Speaker 1: a lot more easy to be open with someone if
Speaker 1: you're not staring eye to eye, especially for men. I
Speaker 1: assume yes, and there's a sense of yeah, there's a
Speaker 1: sense of we're kind of moving in the same direction
Speaker 1: rather than against each other. That kicks in. I think
Speaker 1: there was this there was a story about how Steve
Speaker 1: Jobs always used to do walking meetings, like, yes, you
Speaker 1: always wanted to walk side by side with people.
Speaker 2: Yes, so I like with friends, I or even if
Speaker 2: business friends come into town, I always ask for a
Speaker 2: walk and talk always, and I never say let's get coffee.
Speaker 2: I'm always like, let's get tacos. Yes, like just to
Speaker 2: like break it up, break the script a little bit.
Speaker 2: And I do find there's something about walking and movement
Speaker 2: that also you have more breath, you're looking around. I
Speaker 2: have a secret feeling that when I walk and talk
Speaker 2: with someone, they're more creative.
Speaker 3: Yeah, they're like more open.
Speaker 2: Minded, Like they go places that we could never have gotten.
Speaker 2: I swear we could have never gotten over a coffee.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I agree. I think the big thing I'm
Speaker 1: taking away is this off script idea. Yeah, it's just
Speaker 1: breaking the script. It's interrupting the pattern. Yeah, because we're
Speaker 1: all so caught up in our patterns. And by the way,
Speaker 1: that makes you boring as well, it makes you less interesting.
Speaker 1: Just as you said earlier, if you've being asked the
Speaker 1: same three questions, it's hard to answer them in an
Speaker 1: interesting way. It's hard to make how many siblings you
Speaker 1: have an interesting conversation on the thirty seventh time over coffee, But.
Speaker 3: When they're guessing, it's always interesting exactly.
Speaker 1: And that's what I love. How you've interrupted the pattern,
Speaker 1: whether that's through the questions you ask, whether that's through gamification,
Speaker 1: whether it's through changing the path the way you're connecting.
Speaker 2: And also let's get to the chemistry of this. When
Speaker 2: you give an exciting answer or a different answer, you
Speaker 2: are creating dopamine.
Speaker 3: Now don't mean there's a lot of things.
Speaker 2: In our bodies, but in conversation, dopamine is the chemical
Speaker 2: of motivation and excitement. So if I asked you a
Speaker 2: question or answered a question in a different way, I
Speaker 2: highlighted a new neural pathway, my brain went ooh, something new.
Speaker 2: And that dopamine does a couple of things. One, it
Speaker 2: gets you excited. It makes you feel more positive. Two
Speaker 2: it doctor John and Madina found that dopamine makes you
Speaker 2: more memorable. So if you're in conversation and someone's gone
Speaker 2: on fifty first dates, or like you're in a business meeting.
Speaker 2: This especially in business, I say to people, create dopamine
Speaker 2: in the boardroom. You've got to make your presentation to
Speaker 2: stand out. You've got to create dopamine in an interview.
Speaker 2: If you're pitching work with a lot of entrepreneurs, you've
Speaker 2: got to create dopamine in those investors. Because dopamine is
Speaker 2: what makes the brain go, oh, this person gave me pleasure.
Speaker 3: I want to remember them.
Speaker 2: When you trigger dopamine people are more likely to remember
Speaker 2: your name, what you talked about, and what you care about.
Speaker 2: So if you want to be more memorable, the best
Speaker 2: thing you can do is try to create excitement moments
Speaker 2: for them, both of you. Me two moments are typically excitement.
Speaker 2: That's the secret motivation about why I want you to
Speaker 2: have me two moments. And then also sharing stories. I
Speaker 2: kind of have like a story toolbox. I like keep
Speaker 2: all my favorite stories and a little note on my
Speaker 2: phone because I just like telling them, you know, And
Speaker 2: so like start collecting or cataloging stories because those are
Speaker 2: gifts for people. You tell a good story, someone's like
Speaker 2: ah yeah, like they like love it.
Speaker 3: And then lastly is juice excitement.
Speaker 2: So when we talk about conversation starters, I have a
Speaker 2: couple favorites. So if you're going to stop asking what
Speaker 2: do you do? Where are you from? I love context cues.
Speaker 2: The other thing you can do with people you already know,
Speaker 2: especially at work, is ask working on anything exciting these days? So,
Speaker 2: like I had this problem where I would see people
Speaker 2: who I kind of knew, like friends of friends or
Speaker 2: like family members I don't see all the time, and
Speaker 2: I'd be.
Speaker 3: Like, how's life? Like what do you do?
Speaker 2: So now I always ask working on anything exciting these days?
Speaker 2: That is a dopamine gift for their brain, because in
Speaker 2: their brain then they have to go, oh, you broke
Speaker 2: their script exciting, exciting, exciting.
Speaker 3: They're literally searching their brain for something exciting.
Speaker 2: When they find it, they go oh, yeah, you know
Speaker 2: actually and they tell you, so you're actually like juicing dope. Mean,
Speaker 2: you're borrowing it from other area of their life. And
Speaker 2: by the way, if they say no, what a great
Speaker 2: opportunity for vulnerability. Like I've asked it maybe one out
Speaker 2: of every ten times, I'll say working on anyth exciting
Speaker 2: or have anything exciting coming up?
Speaker 3: And they'll be like.
Speaker 2: No, yeah, and I'll be like, wow, what's going on?
Speaker 2: Tell me what's actually happening in your life? And we
Speaker 2: have skipped How are you busy?
Speaker 1: Good?
Speaker 3: If you ask someone, how are you there going to
Speaker 3: be busy?
Speaker 1: Good? Good?
Speaker 3: Busy? How about you?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 3: And so I'd rather like get past that.
Speaker 2: And so asking that question is an unlocked So keep
Speaker 2: that one in your back body is my favorite.
Speaker 1: You literally read my mind. I was about to shift
Speaker 1: to work, so you already went ahead of it, which
Speaker 1: is great. So I'm really glad that you gave the
Speaker 1: alternative because I've had a lot of people that I've
Speaker 1: asked that question too lately, and they actually focus so
Speaker 1: much pressure because I think we're living at this time
Speaker 1: now where everyone's doing something so big, which is what
Speaker 1: it looks like. And so then when you ask someone that,
Speaker 1: they're scared that they don't have something big to say,
Speaker 1: and so they either shrink and they actually get scared
Speaker 1: of that conversation that goes. I don't really want to
Speaker 1: talk about that. I get a lot of that sometimes,
Speaker 1: or someone are like, oh, that's a lot of pressure. Exciting. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm just trying to get by. Like that happens. And
Speaker 1: it's interesting that even though it's such a better question
Speaker 1: than what do you do? How's life? How's it going,
Speaker 1: it can create some friction, and so I really like
Speaker 1: talking about it when it doesn't go your way.
Speaker 2: So I just want to acknowledge it takes courage to
Speaker 2: break scripts. Yeah, I know scripts are comfortable, Like I
Speaker 2: know that the reason why we're like how are you good?
Speaker 2: Is because it's safe, And so I want you to
Speaker 2: just acknowledge yourself if you're thinking about asking these questions
Speaker 2: like it does take some social courage, but it's worth it.
Speaker 2: And so yeah, we got to harness, like, Okay, it
Speaker 2: might be uncomfortable. You might someone might not have a
Speaker 2: good answer to that, or a good answer. I even
Speaker 2: say a good answer. They might have an exciting answer.
Speaker 2: They might be more vulnerable, but any answer is an
Speaker 2: opportunity for connection. Whatever they say, at least it's not
Speaker 2: a social script and your other options, so you can
Speaker 2: accept it with vulnerability. Oh my gosh, tell me what
Speaker 2: has it been hard? What's going on? Or you could
Speaker 2: have your own answer. So I've asked someone that question,
Speaker 2: they're like and they kind of are thinking about it,
Speaker 2: and I go, well, while you're thinking about it, here's
Speaker 2: what's exciting with me.
Speaker 3: And then I take the ball.
Speaker 2: That's so conversation is like soccer, right, we're passing this
Speaker 2: ball back and forth?
Speaker 3: Or basketball. I don't really play sports. What's a sport
Speaker 3: you like? Passing the rugby?
Speaker 2: I don't know, so, like, like you pass the ball
Speaker 2: back and forth, but in basketball you're supposed to rible, right,
Speaker 2: So like I shouldn't do sports metaphors.
Speaker 3: I really shouldn't. I don't know anything about sports.
Speaker 1: The closest Okay, it's gonna be passed.
Speaker 2: The basketball and back and forth when I ask doing
Speaker 2: anything exciting.
Speaker 3: Recently, I passed.
Speaker 2: The ball to you and then you're like holding the
Speaker 2: ball and you're like, if you can't think of it,
Speaker 2: take the ball back, right, just take it back from them.
Speaker 2: So they're like okay, and they can listen, they can think,
Speaker 2: and that also works really well.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and any question I always say to be any
Speaker 1: question you are going to ask someone else, make sure
Speaker 1: you know the answer to you totally right, because I
Speaker 1: think so often we ask a question and they'll be like,
Speaker 1: well what about you, You're like and you're like, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, and so be ready to answer.
Speaker 2: I also like, I just want to make like a
Speaker 2: push here if someone's willing to be brave, which is
Speaker 2: we are more interesting and exciting when we do exciting,
Speaker 2: interesting things. This means getting off social media, This means
Speaker 2: not watching the show everyone else is watching. This means
Speaker 2: getting up and trying different things. And so I also
Speaker 2: like a little side like just like I just want
Speaker 2: to like share what the world is like. May we
Speaker 2: all be always working on something a little exciting or
Speaker 2: a little interesting for ourselves. And if the side benefit
Speaker 2: is we have great conversations. Great when you become known
Speaker 2: for asking these questions, you also inspire others to do
Speaker 2: something a little bit courageous. And so, for example, I
Speaker 2: have a friend that always always, whenever we get together,
Speaker 2: he always asks what are you learning? And the first
Speaker 2: time he asked me that question, I was like, I
Speaker 2: was like, I'm learning to survive with my kids. But
Speaker 2: now I know he's going to ask you that question.
Speaker 2: You know what, I'll be darned. I learned something every
Speaker 2: time before I see him. Yeah, like I will go
Speaker 2: find something to learn. And you know what, that makes
Speaker 2: me better? Yes, Like he had the courage to ask
Speaker 2: me that question for the first time and me not
Speaker 2: have a good answer, and he rescued me.
Speaker 3: He talked about what he was learning.
Speaker 2: But now I am better for that question because I
Speaker 2: want to learn something every time I see him. And
Speaker 2: speaking of work, I noticed, so my team is all
Speaker 2: over the world. Yeah, he signed the people team. We're
Speaker 2: all over the world. And I notice that we have
Speaker 2: a team call virtually on Tuesdays. I noticed that like
Speaker 2: the first five minutes of our call was like this,
Speaker 2: like kind of small talk, like a little bit negative,
Speaker 2: kind of awkward, and so I thought, you know what,
Speaker 2: We're going to have a new routine that the moment
Speaker 2: we get on the call, we all share tell me
Speaker 2: something good. And so our team meeting always to tell
Speaker 2: me to be able. We go around and everyone shares
Speaker 2: something good, something small, something big, And not only does
Speaker 2: it make our team call so much more interesting because
Speaker 2: I learn the most interesting things about my team, but
Speaker 2: also one of my team members told me that Monday
Speaker 2: is her do something good day because she wants to
Speaker 2: have something good to share in the meeting.
Speaker 3: So like, be the person known for it.
Speaker 2: Like do an icebreaker and your team meetings, I said,
Speaker 2: on an icebreaker every Monday my newsletter. Every Monday, I
Speaker 2: have a work appropriate, somewhat exciting, kind of interesting icebreaker
Speaker 2: that's a gift to you. So like, be the person
Speaker 2: known for bringing those icebreakers. And people want my grumble
Speaker 2: and might well their eyes, but you know what, secretly
Speaker 2: they like it. Yeah, of course they like it. And
Speaker 2: if they know they're not your person, yea.
Speaker 1: What was this? Do you know what? You give me
Speaker 1: some of the cues?
Speaker 2: Yeah, So like I always try to think of something
Speaker 2: that's like breaking a script in a little interesting So
Speaker 2: like I think that this week was are you an introvert,
Speaker 2: ambrovert or extrovert? Got it very helpful, by the way,
Speaker 2: Like you should know in your friend group and your
Speaker 2: work team who is an introvert, extrovert or ambrovert because
Speaker 2: introverts get energy from being alone, and especially at.
Speaker 3: Work, they are are more creative alone.
Speaker 2: So the worst thing you can do in an introvert
Speaker 2: is have a brainstorm meeting where you don't tell them
Speaker 2: what you're brainstorming. So you bring them into the room
Speaker 2: and you're like, okay, guys, let's brainstorm all the big
Speaker 2: ideas for next year.
Speaker 3: And they're like they're trying to think in their head.
Speaker 2: If you would just give them a little warning beforehand,
Speaker 2: they would come very prepared. So you should know who
Speaker 2: needs that warning time. Extroverts get energy from being with people.
Speaker 2: Now at work, how this shows up is if an
Speaker 2: extrovert has a good day, they want to celebrate with people,
Speaker 2: They want to hop on a call, they want to
Speaker 2: pop by your office, they want to chitchat your ear off.
Speaker 2: Good to know if they have a bad day, they
Speaker 2: also want to call you to chat or stop by
Speaker 2: your office, And so you need to know who's their person.
Speaker 2: It shouldn't be an introvert. And so this is like
Speaker 2: pair the extroverts together, right, Like I have a wonderful
Speaker 2: sales team and they are my extroverts.
Speaker 3: And I'm no an extrovert. I'm an ambrovert.
Speaker 2: And so they have a slack channel that I don't
Speaker 2: even know how to logging to slack, so I can
Speaker 2: I cannot slack. I don't know if it's a verb
Speaker 2: or it's a noun, but I can't do it. But
Speaker 2: they love it and they're all extroverts together, and so
Speaker 2: I'm like, oh, be extroverts by salespeople.
Speaker 3: Yes, so you should be very purposeful.
Speaker 2: So that question, and what my readers have told me
Speaker 2: is it's sparking these conversations of like how can I
Speaker 2: serve you? Yes, Like you're an introvert. So if you're
Speaker 2: having a bad day, do you on space?
Speaker 3: Like introverts? If you give them bad news and then
Speaker 3: you're like any questions.
Speaker 2: I want to talk it through, They're like no, So
Speaker 2: the best thing is like give them the bad news
Speaker 2: and be like like why don't you take a day
Speaker 2: or two? Will regroup on Thursday. So like just the
Speaker 2: way that we communicate. If we just talk about it,
Speaker 2: we're honoring everyone, We're serving everyone.
Speaker 1: I've always struggled with that because everyone in my life
Speaker 1: thinks I'm an extrovert.
Speaker 3: I know, yeah, but I but I.
Speaker 1: Get energy when I'm alone. I work on my own.
Speaker 1: I don't like working groups and brainstorms and not worth.
Speaker 1: I have to dive deep on my own. I like
Speaker 1: dealing with problems on my own.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So, but I'm not an introvert. I'm an ambivot Yeah.
Speaker 1: Why what's the difference.
Speaker 2: Okay, so eighty percent of people are ambroverts, so it's
Speaker 2: actually most people. Very few people are true introversion to extroverts.
Speaker 2: We don't talk about ambiversion enough. Ambiversion is a superpower.
Speaker 2: Ambiversion means that around the right people you get energy,
Speaker 2: and around the wrong people you lose energy. I'm in yeah,
Speaker 2: and around the right situations you get energy. Okay, So
Speaker 2: if you're an ambivert, it also means averts are able
Speaker 2: to dial up. This is why oftentimes ammaverts are mistaken
Speaker 2: as like outgoing introverts or like social introverts, which is
Speaker 2: you can dial right, like you can dial for two hours,
Speaker 2: but like if I go to a happy hour, and.
Speaker 3: People always like, what are you talking about? Awkward?
Speaker 2: They don't know that I spent two hours flat on
Speaker 2: my back in the hotel room.
Speaker 3: Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 2: Like, they don't see the recharge process. Because ammaverts have
Speaker 2: this power, we can dial up and we can mirror
Speaker 2: and match. Ammaverts are usually highly empathetic. We are chameleons.
Speaker 2: We are social chameleons. So ambaverts have this amazing skill
Speaker 2: where they can dial up to match an extrovert energy.
Speaker 2: They can be the life of the party if they
Speaker 2: want to, but they also can have these beautiful, quiet
Speaker 2: introvert conversations. But they need a lot of recharge time
Speaker 2: in between. And so I say it's a superpower and
Speaker 2: you just know how to what charges your social battery
Speaker 2: more or less. I will say for ambroverts, our biggest
Speaker 2: struggle is ambivalence. Extroverts can like everyone, They can find
Speaker 2: something good about everyone. Even with a person who ish,
Speaker 2: they can still get energy because they are fun.
Speaker 1: I've got friends like that.
Speaker 2: I have a friend who is dating right now and
Speaker 2: she always says, you know, I never know on a
Speaker 2: date if if we're having fun or I'm just fun.
Speaker 1: I have a friend that I say, I'm like, you
Speaker 1: could have dated or married anyone. Yes, because you'll just
Speaker 1: for Madeline love. It'll make it good. You'll make any sense.
Speaker 3: An extrovert struggle with this. She really struggles.
Speaker 2: She does like I don't know which one it is.
Speaker 2: So that's extrovert. Ambroverts and introverts know who their toxic
Speaker 2: people are. They are like if I'm not a heck,
Speaker 2: yes I'm not going. But ambiverts, we tend to be
Speaker 2: more people pleasing, where we'll be like do I like
Speaker 2: that person?
Speaker 3: Do they like me?
Speaker 2: We often have people on our calendar where we look
Speaker 2: at it and we're like, we tend to have friends
Speaker 2: out of habit. Yeah, like they've just been friends for
Speaker 2: like a long time, and we like default the friendship,
Speaker 2: but actually the friendship we're not like getting a lot
Speaker 2: of energy. We're not giving or getting a lot of energy.
Speaker 2: So it's really important for ambroverts, if this is you listening,
Speaker 2: don't be ambivalent about your relationships. Ambivalent relationships actually take
Speaker 2: way more out of you than toxic relationships. When you
Speaker 2: look at your calendar and you see precious social time
Speaker 2: being given to someone who's like meh, you come back
Speaker 2: a little drained, you come back a little more tired.
Speaker 2: It makes you not believe in relationship. Yeah, And so
Speaker 2: I would rather you feel heck yes about someone than ambivalent.
Speaker 2: And that's a curse of ambiverts. The only curse of
Speaker 2: our kryptonite to our superpower is we can sometimes let
Speaker 2: a relationship go that really shouldn't.
Speaker 1: Be as and you allow for it to continue, Yeah.
Speaker 2: Because you don't know how to stop it and you
Speaker 2: don't want to hurt their feeling. Yeah, And you wouldn't
Speaker 2: know how to have a friendship breakup anyway. And you
Speaker 2: also I think that sometimes amberverts aren't sure what's fun.
Speaker 2: It's like the weird. I don't know if this is me,
Speaker 2: Like I'm I don't know if this is just a
Speaker 2: woman thing or not. I don't know if you have this.
Speaker 2: Sometimes I do things and I'm like, am I having fun?
Speaker 2: I don't know if it's like my age or but
Speaker 2: I will do things that I've done before and I wonder, like,
Speaker 2: is this fun? Was Netflix at home better? I don't know.
Speaker 2: I think it's an Ambivert thing. That's something that I've
Speaker 2: been sort of wrestling with of Like, sometimes I don't
Speaker 2: even know what fun is.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, No, I want to react to There's two
Speaker 1: thoughts that came to mind to the first part you
Speaker 1: talked about. I always like to remind people that there's
Speaker 1: two ways of growing in a friendship. There's growing together
Speaker 1: and there's growing apart. To notice how they both say
Speaker 1: growing right. But when we're growing apart, we think we
Speaker 1: lost something or we think it ended, or we think
Speaker 1: we failed, and it's like, no, that was growth too,
Speaker 1: and there was growing together. But we think of you
Speaker 1: growing together, then it's going right. And if you're growing apart,
Speaker 1: it's going wrong and it's like, no, there's growth. And
Speaker 1: so I always like to remind myself that. But to
Speaker 1: your other point, I think it's because time has become
Speaker 1: more valuable and our self awareness has risen at the
Speaker 1: same time as we value time. So I'm the same.
Speaker 1: I now find it much more frustrating to watch a
Speaker 1: bad show in the evening and feel like I wasted
Speaker 1: three hours of my evening than I ever did before.
Speaker 1: So I don't know if it's an umbivert thing or
Speaker 1: a person or an age thing, or I just know
Speaker 1: that I'm like like me and my wife went back
Speaker 1: and forth on that. A couple of years ago, I
Speaker 1: was just like, I'm not getting anything out of this.
Speaker 1: If we want to do something together, I want to
Speaker 1: do something that helps us connect and go deep. Or
Speaker 1: I'd rather go read and work, to be honest, because
Speaker 1: I'd get so much more out of that than i
Speaker 1: would have sitting here and watching nothing.
Speaker 2: Yes, yess, it's a great show obviously, of course, and
Speaker 2: that's magic. And so I think that, like I'm having
Speaker 2: a personal struggle with this right now where I have
Speaker 2: some beautiful friendships, but sometimes I'm having conversation and I'm
Speaker 2: wondering if we're getting anywhere. Yeah, which is I feel bad.
Speaker 2: I'm like I don't want to be productive in a friendship,
Speaker 2: but like I want to like like figure each other out,
Speaker 2: or like let's be laughing or I and so sometimes
Speaker 2: I'm like, where are we going? Yes, And I don't
Speaker 2: know what that is. But it's been a little bit
Speaker 2: of a challenge. And I'm also a working mom, and
Speaker 2: so I think sometimes I.
Speaker 3: There's like less me two moments.
Speaker 2: Yes, sometimes unless you're also a working mom. And then
Speaker 2: I feel lonely, So like I think this is a
Speaker 2: work in progress.
Speaker 1: No, that's really interesting because I think it's for people
Speaker 1: who've optimized all areas of their life. Me. Yes, there's
Speaker 1: also a sign of I'm looking for optimization. But the
Speaker 1: way you just explained it, which I love, is what
Speaker 1: we're ultimately doing is looking for new states of belonging. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So what I was saying to one of my friends
Speaker 1: the other I said, my oldest friends in London will
Speaker 1: always be my best friends. There is never going to
Speaker 1: be someone who knows me that deeply, intimately or as long. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but I need a new set of friends that have
Speaker 1: similar lives to me today because I have different me
Speaker 1: toos now, using your language, I have different me twos
Speaker 1: with them that I can't have with my old friends.
Speaker 1: And so it's not a replacement or a substitute, but
Speaker 1: it is finding people that I feel. We both have
Speaker 1: podcasts and we can talk about all the challenges that
Speaker 1: come with the podcast week. We both travel the world
Speaker 1: too much and you know whatever, and I need to
Speaker 1: have someone that I can vent about those things and
Speaker 1: talk about those things.
Speaker 2: Yes, so thin that's like the challenge of modern friendship.
Speaker 2: I also think it's the challenge of dating right now.
Speaker 2: Do you date someone who is exactly your same or
Speaker 2: do you date someone where you have shared values but
Speaker 2: you're very different. And I think that's a real challenge
Speaker 2: in friendship too, And I don't know the answer.
Speaker 1: I've found great relationships to not having the same exact value.
Speaker 1: I do think it's very rare to truly have the
Speaker 1: same exact values. Yeah, yeah, yeah, because push comes to shove,
Speaker 1: you're going to choose something over the other.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: But I've found that the best relationships I have are
Speaker 1: with people who respect my values and I respect theirs.
Speaker 1: That's it, So we don't even have to agree. But
Speaker 1: I really value that your value makes you you, and
Speaker 1: so I respect it. Yes, and you value that my
Speaker 1: value makes me me, and you respect it. And that
Speaker 1: allows us to operate in our own universe and world
Speaker 1: but have a mutual sense of appreciation.
Speaker 2: And that also brings up a point of like I
Speaker 2: think that we should be. One of my favorite motions
Speaker 2: that we don't talk about enough is aw yes, if
Speaker 2: you respect someone else's value, like hopefully you could even
Speaker 2: be odd by it. Like I have friends who have
Speaker 2: an incredible work ethic. Do I don't work that hard?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 3: Like I work, but like I do.
Speaker 2: A lot with my family. Like I spend a lot
Speaker 2: of time onmmy. Most of my time in the week,
Speaker 2: I only spend about fifteen hours a week working. The
Speaker 2: rest of my work is mommy. But I so respect
Speaker 2: my friends who just they just kill it. They're always
Speaker 2: working and there's a little bit of odd there. I'm like, wow,
Speaker 2: Like you're just killing it. So I think that, like
Speaker 2: it's who can create awe for you. Yeah, where they're
Speaker 2: so kind that you're odd by them. They're so driven
Speaker 2: that you're odd by them. They're so warm that you're
Speaker 2: odd by them. And so I think that, like that's
Speaker 2: a good way to think of it. Is it's not
Speaker 2: the same. It's that you respect them enough and you
Speaker 2: have some meat too moments of course, but like you
Speaker 2: can have a little bit of on all your relationships,
Speaker 2: even like in my marriage, I do conversation starter with
Speaker 2: my husband all the time. And one of the ones
Speaker 2: we did recently was in my newsletter, which is who is.
Speaker 3: Your role model? Which is different than who is your hero?
Speaker 2: Like hero is like more of like a like idolizing them,
Speaker 2: whereas like a role model is someone that you maybe
Speaker 2: aspire to be like. And he said me, and I
Speaker 2: was like what why, and he was like, you know,
Speaker 2: you just you're you're you're you, and I love that
Speaker 2: about you. And I was like, wow, like this, it's
Speaker 2: so important that we're odd by our partners. And so
Speaker 2: when you're dating, I think a good little litmus test
Speaker 2: for yourself is am I inspired by this person?
Speaker 1: Like?
Speaker 2: Am I in awe of who they are or what
Speaker 2: they do or what they believe? Because if the answer
Speaker 2: is yes, that's a keeper, Like, that's a keeper. It's
Speaker 2: more important than a checklist. Oh my ladies listening. I look,
Speaker 2: I know we love.
Speaker 3: A checklist, but those checklists don't always serve us.
Speaker 1: Oh, definitely not. Those those are parameters are blocking people,
Speaker 1: Like he has to be six foot four, and it's
Speaker 1: like you could have a six foot three guy who
Speaker 1: is perfect, but the filter has kept him out. Yeah.
Speaker 3: I think like maybe like lovingly burn the checklist.
Speaker 2: Yes, it's like a scented candle, Like burn it because
Speaker 2: I don't think it's serving, and then just go out.
Speaker 3: And just you know, find your person.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Oh gosh, I wanted to talk a bit about
Speaker 1: women in the workplace. Yeah, because I think and as
Speaker 1: you just talked about, you know, being a working mom,
Speaker 1: And I think about women in the workplace, and I
Speaker 1: think about how cues and body language are very different
Speaker 1: in how we perceive men and women. And whenever I
Speaker 1: speak to women, they'll say, I get seen as being
Speaker 1: difficult instead of being direct. Yeah, I'm seen as being
Speaker 1: argumentative as opposed to being assertive. I'm seen as being
Speaker 1: moody as opposed to just having a failed, rejected day
Speaker 1: or whatever would have happened. And I feel like the
Speaker 1: standards are different. What does a woman do when she
Speaker 1: feels that her directness is being seen as difficulty.
Speaker 2: So women are actually facing two challenges in the workplace today.
Speaker 2: One is exactly what we said, that we can be
Speaker 2: seen as bossy or dominant when we're actually just stating
Speaker 2: our point of view.
Speaker 3: Assertiveness is bossiness.
Speaker 2: But on the other hand, we're also struggling with being
Speaker 2: too likable, being interrupted, being underestimated, being too soft. And
Speaker 2: so we actually have two sides that we're trying to wait.
Speaker 2: We have this very narrow valley we're allowed to operate in. Right,
Speaker 2: can't be too friendly, can't be too smiling, can't be
Speaker 2: too likable because won't we taken seriously? Oh, but can't
Speaker 2: be too a sort of can't be too Domino El
Speaker 2: Specienes bossy. So we had this super narrow lane with
Speaker 2: which we can operate in. So what I think is
Speaker 2: really really important is focusing on the two traits that matter.
Speaker 2: These are the only two traits that matter, which are
Speaker 2: warmth and competence. When we are with someone whose signals
Speaker 2: you can trust me, you can like me. I am
Speaker 2: open to you, and you can rely on me. I'm productive,
Speaker 2: I'm capable. Those are in that valley and they are
Speaker 2: the most important signals that you can have in anything.
Speaker 2: Video calls slack, your LinkedIn profile and so I wanted
Speaker 2: this is a really weird challenge. I want you to
Speaker 2: start with. We have the power of AI. Now, this
Speaker 2: is a new thing that has just come up. I
Speaker 2: want you to open up your favorite AI tool, and
Speaker 2: I want to do two things. I want you to
Speaker 2: copy and paste your LinkedIn profile. I want you to
Speaker 2: put it in AI and ask AI, how warm and
Speaker 2: competent am I. What's incredible is the warmth and competence
Speaker 2: research that came out of Princeton, which is done by
Speaker 2: doctor Susan Fisk. It was done in two thousand and
Speaker 2: two and it's been replicated. It's a very solid piece
Speaker 2: of research. AI models are trained in it. They know
Speaker 2: about warmth and competence. So put it in AI. Ask
Speaker 2: how am I coming across warmer competent? AI will tell
Speaker 2: you based on the words you use. Then ask it,
Speaker 2: make it more warm and competent, and just see what
Speaker 2: they change. Then what I want you to do is
Speaker 2: take five important emails that you've recently sent. What we
Speaker 2: don't realize is our cues are changing the way people
Speaker 2: treat us. So the types of words you use in
Speaker 2: your emails are changing people's perception of your bossiness or
Speaker 2: I would say over over friendliness. Take five emails you
Speaker 2: spent some time crafting, put them into AI and ask AI,
Speaker 2: how warm am I? How competent am I? How could
Speaker 2: I have done better? We can use AI as a
Speaker 2: charisma coach, and it is incredibly helpful to see are
Speaker 2: you leaking? Are you showing cues of warmth and competence?
Speaker 2: Just verbally like forget in person, like forget the nonverbal.
Speaker 2: We have to start with the email first. That will
Speaker 2: be a really important test. Right off the bat, see
Speaker 2: what it says and it will tell you, Oh, you're
Speaker 2: leaning far warm. So, for example, in our research, we
Speaker 2: have students who are off the charts in warmth. They
Speaker 2: love emojis. Okay, my highly warm folks, Oh my goodness.
Speaker 2: They love emojis and exclamation points, and they love words
Speaker 2: like yay, fab whoop, and wow. Okay, these are my
Speaker 2: I know when I can read emails from a person
Speaker 2: and be like, this person highly warm, and they're interrupted
Speaker 2: in meetings. This person is highly warm and they're not
Speaker 2: taken seriously. This person is highly warm and they're getting
Speaker 2: pushed back on their salary range. This person is highly
Speaker 2: warm and they are not be seen as credible in
Speaker 2: their interviews. I can look at your emails and I
Speaker 2: can tell you what professional challenges you're facing, and so
Speaker 2: can you. Highly competent folks, on the other hand, they
Speaker 2: under exclaim they don't use a lot of emojis, and
Speaker 2: they love data percents, numbers and figures.
Speaker 3: They love those.
Speaker 2: In fact, for a highly competent person, it's physically painful
Speaker 2: to use a exclame point. It's like, oh, but it's
Speaker 2: not credible. But you know what that means. You're undersignaling warmth.
Speaker 2: It means if you are if you are too formal,
Speaker 2: too sterile in your communications. That could be the reason
Speaker 2: that people are like, oh, I do like she doesn't
Speaker 2: give me a good feeling. I can't connect to her.
Speaker 2: She's too dominant. And this comes directly from the research.
Speaker 2: And this is a quote I remember that I don't
Speaker 2: remember quotes often, but this quote struck me so deeply.
Speaker 2: Competence without warmth leaves us feeling suspicious. Yes, this is
Speaker 2: the curse of highly smart women. Highly smart women are
Speaker 2: in the workplace and there they have great ideas, they
Speaker 2: have super high competence, and they rely on their smarts.
Speaker 2: They're like, my ideas are so strong, my prep my presentations,
Speaker 2: I know my stuff. I don't need the warmth. My
Speaker 2: ideas are so good they'll they'll live on their own.
Speaker 2: But the research shows it doesn't matter how smart you are,
Speaker 2: it doesn't matter how good your ideas are, it doesn't
Speaker 2: matter how well prepared you are. I'm sorry if you
Speaker 2: do not showcase it with warmth, people are suspicious of you.
Speaker 2: Oh that's so good, and so we have to be
Speaker 2: able to balance out our competence with our warmth, those ideas,
Speaker 2: with the lubricant of warmth.
Speaker 1: That is so good. That is so good and you're
Speaker 1: so right that we all think we can compensate for
Speaker 1: our lack of warmth with competence, that's it. Or we
Speaker 1: can compensate for our lack of competence with warmth, right,
Speaker 1: And the point is people won't respect or like you
Speaker 1: based on They'll like you if you're warm, but they
Speaker 1: won't respect and men.
Speaker 3: Have the same problem. I think that women's valley is
Speaker 3: just smaller.
Speaker 1: I agree. I really like that, Yeah, that.
Speaker 2: We just have a very narrow way to be and
Speaker 2: like even sometimes like I do a lot of interviews
Speaker 2: and I'm on you know, social media a lot, even
Speaker 2: in my grid on Instagram, I am trying to balance
Speaker 2: this very narrow lane of warmth and competence.
Speaker 3: It's why I think so many, like women, we feel.
Speaker 2: Like we have to share, like our breakfast, Like we
Speaker 2: feel like we have to share because we're like.
Speaker 3: Oh, I don't want to be too competent. I don't
Speaker 3: want to be too smart on that.
Speaker 2: Side, and so we also we compensate or try to
Speaker 2: balance in the wrong ways. And so I would much
Speaker 2: rather you take control of your interactions, right, we talk
Speaker 2: about control.
Speaker 3: That's the way we do. It is we know.
Speaker 2: Okay, well, there's ninety seven cues, here's warm ones, here's
Speaker 2: competent once. I'm gonna choose my recipe right, Like, I
Speaker 2: look different than other women because I don't want to
Speaker 2: use all the same cues, But I need to find
Speaker 2: what's the recipe that I feel the most comfortable with.
Speaker 2: What's the flavor of charisma that I like the most?
Speaker 2: It makes me feel like myself.
Speaker 1: That I mean, that is the recipe for respect.
Speaker 3: That's it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's as simple as that, and do everything we've
Speaker 1: talked about today. What I deeply appreciate is that it's earned,
Speaker 1: it's built, it's engineered, it's prepared for. It's not something
Speaker 1: that someone just has and turns up with. Which is
Speaker 1: this myth that I think makes people go, that's just special? Yeah?
Speaker 2: And I like sometimes in my comments, I try not
Speaker 2: to read comments, but sometimes my comments people say, you know,
Speaker 2: just show up as yourself. You know this is this
Speaker 2: is manipulative, this engineering. And I'm like, yeah, because if
Speaker 2: you are lucky enough that you can show up and
Speaker 2: just be charismatic, win friends, amazing.
Speaker 3: I am so happy for you.
Speaker 2: But most of us don't have that privilege, like I
Speaker 2: do not, and so I think that, yeah, it is
Speaker 2: a little bit engineered in the sense of if you
Speaker 2: feel competent and you feel warm, you should know how
Speaker 2: to showcase that. I often felt warm and felt competent,
Speaker 2: but I had no idea how to show it. And
Speaker 2: so I think that there is a rare bird of
Speaker 2: magic people and they are amazing and we can learn
Speaker 2: from them. But for most of us, it's just dialing
Speaker 2: up our natural warmth and competence and just knowing how
Speaker 2: to show it.
Speaker 1: I want to remind people I think this stuff can
Speaker 1: be used disingenuously. Oh yes, And it's only disingenuous if
Speaker 1: it goes back to what we were talking about earlier,
Speaker 1: where it shifts in the manipulation, it shifts to like
Speaker 1: trying to get something out of something and extraction and lying.
Speaker 2: And you know, this is my greatest fear, by the way. Yeah,
Speaker 2: Like before I came out with Cues, especially, I had
Speaker 2: like a like a life crisis because I started writing
Speaker 2: the book and I was like, oh no, like this
Speaker 2: could be used for evil, and like I had a
Speaker 2: whole thing with my publisher where I was like, I
Speaker 2: don't know if I should publish this, Like I don't
Speaker 2: these are tools that people could use for bad and
Speaker 2: I and she was like, yeah, but they could also
Speaker 2: be used for good. And so I sat with my
Speaker 2: team and I talked to them about it, and we
Speaker 2: decided to move forward with it. Obviously, and you know,
Speaker 2: it's changed so many people. But that is my biggest
Speaker 2: fear is that people will use this for bad, not good.
Speaker 2: And so it's really important I think for everyone listening
Speaker 2: that if you have the intention to build friendships and
Speaker 2: to find your people and to be warm.
Speaker 3: That's why we started off with that word.
Speaker 2: Whatever word, it is great, like that is your intention,
Speaker 2: and that is only searching for good, and that should
Speaker 2: always be our intention.
Speaker 1: I love that, Vanessa. You are incredible. I think you
Speaker 1: musterify go between cold and confidence. I can now we
Speaker 1: spent two hours together. No, I mean it's I think
Speaker 1: the work you're doing is amazing, and I think it's
Speaker 1: so needed in a time when a lot of us
Speaker 1: are dealing with low self esteem, low confidence. We think
Speaker 1: everyone else is impressive and we're.
Speaker 3: Not, and we're lonely and lonely, and we're underestimated.
Speaker 1: Yes, and we look around and we think we're the
Speaker 1: only one struggling when the reality is someone just had
Speaker 1: the chance to develop a few of these skills, maybe
Speaker 1: in a workplace, maybe in college, maybe their parents had
Speaker 1: some of these naturally. And you don't have to feel
Speaker 1: that what you have now is all you have.
Speaker 2: That's it, And not everyone is going to be your flavor. Yeah,
Speaker 2: you don't have to let everyone like you. In fact,
Speaker 2: that doesn't.
Speaker 3: It is impossible.
Speaker 2: So I would rather you go into conversation finding your people,
Speaker 2: the people who like your weirdness, the people who like
Speaker 2: your awkwardness, the people who truly value your value.
Speaker 3: And everyone else wish them well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but like, life is too short to spend time
Speaker 2: with people that we're ambivalent to about. Life is too
Speaker 2: short to not say hey, like it's too short.
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, And it's there's this old meme that I
Speaker 1: love that people post and it says, confidence isn't everyone
Speaker 1: will like me confidences, I'll be okay if everyone doesn't,
Speaker 1: that's it, and that I've always loved that because I
Speaker 1: think we think confidence means, oh, everyone likes them, and
Speaker 1: A that's not true for anyone at all, and B
Speaker 1: it's no, I'll be okay if they don't, because I
Speaker 1: know why I did that. I know why I showed
Speaker 1: up that way. I know why I said hey because
Speaker 1: life's too short. I know why I made eye contact
Speaker 1: because I wanted to form a real connection. I know
Speaker 1: why we went on a road trip because I wanted
Speaker 1: to make sure that someone was not just being a
Speaker 1: script and grew with me. Yeah, it's like I did
Speaker 1: all of that, and I know why I did it,
Speaker 1: even if it didn't go the way I wanted it
Speaker 1: to go. Yeah, Vanessa, thank you so much for showing
Speaker 1: up in your full self. We end every episode of
Speaker 1: On Purpose with the final five. These have to be
Speaker 1: answered in one word to one sentence maximum. You're not
Speaker 1: going to overseerect Vanessa. Your first question is what is
Speaker 1: the best advice you've ever heard or received?
Speaker 3: Don't say yes to everything good advice.
Speaker 1: Question number two, what is the worst advice you've ever
Speaker 1: heard or received?
Speaker 3: Just be yourself.
Speaker 1: Doesn't help me. It doesn't help Yeah, because especially you
Speaker 1: don't even know what you're capable of.
Speaker 2: When people would say that's me, what if you don't
Speaker 2: like yourself? I had a long time where I didn't
Speaker 2: like myself, So when someone said be yourself, that was
Speaker 2: like the worst way to be and so I had
Speaker 2: to figure out something else. And so I think that
Speaker 2: that was hard. That was the worst advice because it
Speaker 2: actually didn't help me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love the answer question number three, And you
Speaker 1: can expand on this a bit, because I think it's
Speaker 1: really important. I feel like right now we're losing a
Speaker 1: lot of these cues because most of us are on
Speaker 1: a dating app and we're messaging, so you don't even
Speaker 1: get to see what someone's looking at. You don't get there, hey, hey,
Speaker 1: get that. Yes, you don't get the smell. You don't
Speaker 1: get the ability to give twenty nine you know, you
Speaker 1: don't get it, And so what are we losing and
Speaker 1: how do we navigate it?
Speaker 2: What we're losing is freedom because they're so narrow those apps.
Speaker 2: It's like, how do you look?
Speaker 3: Okay? Now what are these five questions that are on
Speaker 3: your profile? How did you answer them?
Speaker 1: Oh?
Speaker 3: Now we're going to text in.
Speaker 2: It's very weird, limited way back and forth, and so
Speaker 2: we lack the freedom to be like, so like, what
Speaker 2: brings you here to this gym?
Speaker 3: Oh? You come here a lot?
Speaker 1: Oh?
Speaker 2: I saw you with your friend, Like, we need more
Speaker 2: freedom to find our people. I don't dislike dating apps
Speaker 2: because I think they've created a number of beautiful friendships.
Speaker 2: And but what I think that is really important is
Speaker 2: you don't use them as your only vehicle for dating.
Speaker 3: Make them be one vehicle.
Speaker 2: But then if you're dating and you're really serious about
Speaker 2: finding your person, make it your part time job and
Speaker 2: go to the places where your person would be. So
Speaker 2: when I'm my friends is also dating and she's a
Speaker 2: dog and I was like, sure, do the apps one,
Speaker 2: you know, thirty minutes a day at the most. Otherwise,
Speaker 2: I want you to go to every dog park within
Speaker 2: a mile of you every day after work and just
Speaker 2: look around, talk to everyone, talk to men, talk to women,
Speaker 2: and just start talking to the people o those dog parks.
Speaker 2: You know why they live within a mile of you.
Speaker 2: They are dog owners and you can see.
Speaker 3: Them with their dog. And she was like, oh, And
Speaker 3: I was like, that's your part time job.
Speaker 2: So just make sure that dating apps aren't your only
Speaker 2: way that you're going to the places where they might
Speaker 2: be and you're spending more time there than on the app.
Speaker 1: I love that. It's great advice. Did you find someone
Speaker 1: yet not yet? No? Yeah, that's cool. I really like
Speaker 1: that though, I really like that, why do I want
Speaker 1: to go a question for for how do we get
Speaker 1: comfortable with awkward pauses? Oh?
Speaker 2: No, hmm, so actually here's how we do it. Powerful
Speaker 2: people pause more. Pausing is a signal to someone that
Speaker 2: you're not rushed. So one, if someone else has paused,
Speaker 2: you have made them comfortable enough where they don't feel
Speaker 2: like they have to rush with you.
Speaker 1: Gift.
Speaker 3: If you are pausing, you are giving space to say
Speaker 3: I'm okay for just this second to pause, and so
Speaker 3: pausing shows you're doing something right.
Speaker 1: I love that I do it all. I did it
Speaker 1: just then even to come up with that question because
Speaker 1: I was trying to figure out where we wanted to go, yeah,
Speaker 1: and I didn't want to just do this what I'm
Speaker 1: doing now, which is like, oh, I'm think of it
Speaker 1: as wet to ask you next, and I'm not sure
Speaker 1: where to go with it, but I'm thinking about it, like,
Speaker 1: let me just think about it for a second. Is
Speaker 1: that okay?
Speaker 3: And it's just filler.
Speaker 1: It's just filler, and we're lost, and it's like, well, no,
Speaker 1: I actually didn't know. And I thought about it for
Speaker 1: a second and it.
Speaker 3: Gave me a moment to take a breath. And we
Speaker 3: both feel comfortable and feels comfortable.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's okay to do that. Fifth and final question,
Speaker 1: we asked this to every guest who's ever been on
Speaker 1: the show. If you could create one law that everyone
Speaker 1: had to follow, what would it be?
Speaker 3: Okay?
Speaker 2: If I had to create one law but everyone had
Speaker 2: to follow, it would be no more fake smiles. I
Speaker 2: like that, no more fake smiles. If you like it,
Speaker 2: like it, heck, yes, like it. If you don't like it,
Speaker 2: don't pretend. We would be so much better off with
Speaker 2: no fake smiles because we would actually know what people
Speaker 2: like and don't like.
Speaker 1: I like that advice. That's good. That's good, Vanessa, Vana adverts. Everyone,
Speaker 1: Thank you so much. That was a master class. Oh
Speaker 1: my goodness, dating, work, communication cues. I really hope you
Speaker 1: come back on the show. I would love it, and
Speaker 1: I hope you get to spend more time together. And
Speaker 1: everyone's been listening or watching. I want you to tell me.
Speaker 1: I want you to tag me and Vanessa on Instagram,
Speaker 1: on TikTok. I want you to share with us what
Speaker 1: you're testing, what you're trying, what you're experimenting with. If
Speaker 1: you said hey to someone right, whichever one of these
Speaker 1: that you did. I want you to tell us that
Speaker 1: you're doing it. I want you to share with us
Speaker 1: what you're trialing, because that's where we learn together. You're
Speaker 1: going to inspire so many people who follow you and
Speaker 1: connect with you, your friends and family, to learn about
Speaker 1: how they can master the secret language of charismatic communication.
Speaker 1: You have the ability everyone else she now does as well.
Speaker 1: It's just about finding it and building it. Vanessa has
Speaker 1: the blueprint. Go and follow her across social media, grab
Speaker 1: her books, and tag us both when you're listening to
Speaker 1: this episode.
Speaker 2: If you not at someone and you end up that
Speaker 2: they're your soulmate and you come to Austin, Texas, I.
Speaker 3: Will marry you. Okay, Like, let's create some soulmates. Let's
Speaker 3: make some on purpose babies.
Speaker 1: I love that.
Speaker 3: I will marry you. But if you hate someone and
Speaker 3: they hate you back, I'll marry you.
Speaker 1: That's brilliant. I love that. That's so cool. Hey everyone,
Speaker 1: if you love that conversation, go and check out my
Speaker 1: episode with the world's leading therapist Lourie Gottlieb, where she
Speaker 1: answers the biggest questions that people ask in the therapy
Speaker 1: when it comes to love, relationships, heartbreak, and dating. If
Speaker 1: you're trying to figure out that space right now, you
Speaker 1: won't want to miss this conversation.
Speaker 2: If it's a romantic relationship, hold hands.
Speaker 3: It's really hard to argue. It actually calms your nervous systems.
Speaker 3: Just hold hands as you're having the conversation. It's so lovely.