1 00:00:00,680 --> 00:00:05,840 Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, Happy Saturday. Chuck here with a curated selects 2 00:00:05,840 --> 00:00:09,280 Speaker 1: episode in which we bring out a classic from dusted 3 00:00:09,360 --> 00:00:11,320 Speaker 1: off from the old dustbin so you can give it 4 00:00:11,320 --> 00:00:14,120 Speaker 1: a listen. This one is called how Dopamine Works, and 5 00:00:14,160 --> 00:00:16,600 Speaker 1: it's one of obviously one of our more sciencey episodes. 6 00:00:16,640 --> 00:00:19,720 Speaker 1: And I managed to struggle to get through it, because 7 00:00:19,720 --> 00:00:21,599 Speaker 1: you know, I'm not good at these. But it was 8 00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:27,880 Speaker 1: a great episode, so I hope you like it. Welcome 9 00:00:28,040 --> 00:00:35,240 Speaker 1: to Stuff you Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio. 10 00:00:37,040 --> 00:00:39,680 Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Joshing. There's Chuck 11 00:00:39,680 --> 00:00:43,280 Speaker 2: and Jerry's here too. The three amigos back together again 12 00:00:43,360 --> 00:00:47,280 Speaker 2: after some massively triumphant live shows. 13 00:00:48,720 --> 00:00:52,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, we did a little Northeast Spring swing. 14 00:00:53,159 --> 00:00:55,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, and it was great. 15 00:00:55,120 --> 00:00:59,600 Speaker 1: It was a good show. Which one the podcast topic 16 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:02,080 Speaker 1: that did that we did live? Oh, I know that 17 00:01:02,080 --> 00:01:02,840 Speaker 1: we're doing all year. 18 00:01:02,920 --> 00:01:05,199 Speaker 2: I got to it was pretty good. I love that 19 00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:05,800 Speaker 2: that topic. 20 00:01:06,360 --> 00:01:08,039 Speaker 1: That's what you call an on secuitter. 21 00:01:08,600 --> 00:01:10,440 Speaker 2: But it does feel good to be back, doesn't it. 22 00:01:10,480 --> 00:01:13,120 Speaker 2: Back in the studio, back doing what we're born to do. 23 00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:17,600 Speaker 1: I kind of prefer on stage, but sure, this is 24 00:01:17,640 --> 00:01:18,440 Speaker 1: great to do. 25 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:21,039 Speaker 2: You you like the thrill of the audience, the roar 26 00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:23,160 Speaker 2: of the crowd, that bowl running at you. 27 00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:24,320 Speaker 1: Yeah. 28 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:29,000 Speaker 2: Nice, I like it too, sometimes when I'm not totally 29 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:32,480 Speaker 2: terrified because I drank too much energy drinks. 30 00:01:32,880 --> 00:01:36,000 Speaker 1: Well, I wonder if your dopamine receptors are functioning as 31 00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:36,440 Speaker 1: they should. 32 00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:39,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great question, Chuck. And that's a wonderful 33 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:42,319 Speaker 2: segue too, because it just so happens that today the 34 00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:46,800 Speaker 2: topic of this episode is dopamine, and there's probably no 35 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:53,360 Speaker 2: more misunderstood neurochemical, certainly neurochemical maybe substance in your body 36 00:01:53,400 --> 00:01:56,680 Speaker 2: at all than dopamine. We used to think we had 37 00:01:56,720 --> 00:01:59,240 Speaker 2: a really great handle on dopamine and what it does 38 00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:01,920 Speaker 2: and how it works, and it turns out that we are. 39 00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:05,600 Speaker 2: At every turn a new study comes along that says, Nope, 40 00:02:05,600 --> 00:02:08,560 Speaker 2: we're wrong. Yep, we're wrong about that. Well what about yep? 41 00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:13,040 Speaker 2: Wrong about that? Basically everything we know in popular culture, 42 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:15,440 Speaker 2: and I mean, if you even gone to like Cleveland 43 00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:20,519 Speaker 2: Clinic website or WebMD website or Harvard Health has some articles, 44 00:02:20,840 --> 00:02:26,480 Speaker 2: you'll see this old, antiquated, outdated view of what dopamine 45 00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:28,720 Speaker 2: is being kind of paraded around the idea that it's 46 00:02:28,760 --> 00:02:34,320 Speaker 2: a pleasure inducing chemical. That if something gives you pleasure, 47 00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:36,440 Speaker 2: you're responding to a hit of dopamine, and that is 48 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:38,080 Speaker 2: just absolutely not true. 49 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:42,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, and this may be the most oft covered stuff 50 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:46,160 Speaker 1: you should know, thing that hasn't gotten its own title yet. 51 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:51,040 Speaker 2: Yeah. Man, that dopamine is the reigning champ right now. 52 00:02:51,600 --> 00:02:53,919 Speaker 1: Yeah, we talk about this stuff all the time, it seems. 53 00:02:53,639 --> 00:02:56,480 Speaker 2: Like, yeah, we do, because it comes up a lot. 54 00:02:56,520 --> 00:02:58,120 Speaker 2: And the reason why is because it turns out it 55 00:02:58,160 --> 00:03:01,280 Speaker 2: has a lot to do with with more than just pleasure. 56 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:05,280 Speaker 2: Like everybody, Yes, it is associated with pleasure, just not 57 00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:07,600 Speaker 2: the way we've thought for very long. And it does 58 00:03:07,639 --> 00:03:11,320 Speaker 2: a lot of other stuff too. Essentially, what it does 59 00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:15,000 Speaker 2: is it signals things. It says, hey, you you behave 60 00:03:15,160 --> 00:03:18,760 Speaker 2: or you act up, you stop behaving, something like that. 61 00:03:18,840 --> 00:03:20,760 Speaker 2: I'm not quite sure exactly what it says. I don't 62 00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:24,040 Speaker 2: speak dopamine, but it's a neurotransmitter, so it's a chemical 63 00:03:24,040 --> 00:03:27,800 Speaker 2: messenger in the brain at base. But it's associated with 64 00:03:28,040 --> 00:03:31,960 Speaker 2: so many different things that of course dopamine comes up 65 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:34,760 Speaker 2: all the time in our podcast. 66 00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:38,920 Speaker 1: It sure does. So it is, like you said, a neurotransmitter, 67 00:03:39,480 --> 00:03:41,720 Speaker 1: one of more than a hundred of those bad boys 68 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:46,040 Speaker 1: functioning in our bodies, and it, like you said, it 69 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:52,560 Speaker 1: lets things communicate. It's a facilitator, but it gets all 70 00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:56,200 Speaker 1: the press for its you know, like the feel good 71 00:03:56,240 --> 00:04:01,360 Speaker 1: stuff that you mentioned, addiction behaviors, whether it's gambling or drugs, 72 00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:05,040 Speaker 1: or the thrill of you know those people that walk 73 00:04:05,040 --> 00:04:12,200 Speaker 1: around on ledges and stuff. Ledgewalkers, Yeah, ledgewalkers. But it 74 00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:14,760 Speaker 1: does all kinds of things. That's just the where it 75 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:19,480 Speaker 1: makes the newspaper headlines. But we should probably talk a 76 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:24,000 Speaker 1: little bit about just the narrow transmitter cycle that it 77 00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:24,640 Speaker 1: goes through. 78 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:28,320 Speaker 2: Sure, so the whole thing starts. It turns out that 79 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:33,120 Speaker 2: dopamine is used throughout the body, but for the most 80 00:04:33,120 --> 00:04:35,560 Speaker 2: part it's used in the brain. The problem is is 81 00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:38,359 Speaker 2: if you like had a big handful of dopamine and 82 00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:40,920 Speaker 2: you just shoved it in your mouth, it couldn't make 83 00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:44,479 Speaker 2: it into your brain for use. It can't cross the 84 00:04:44,520 --> 00:04:47,880 Speaker 2: blood brain barrier. In other words, Fortunately, the thing that 85 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:53,480 Speaker 2: makes dopamine up, it's essential ingredient tyrosine and amino acid, 86 00:04:53,800 --> 00:04:56,880 Speaker 2: can cross the blood brain barrier, and when it gets there, 87 00:04:57,160 --> 00:05:03,600 Speaker 2: it gets a big fat from something called tyrosine hydroxylase, 88 00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:07,320 Speaker 2: and that converts it into dopamine and all of a sudden, 89 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:09,360 Speaker 2: your brain's like, yes, let's go. 90 00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:13,520 Speaker 1: That's right. And we've known about it a long time. 91 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:16,880 Speaker 1: It's been around a long time. It is not exclusive 92 00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:17,880 Speaker 1: to human beings. 93 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:18,680 Speaker 2: No, that's a bit. 94 00:05:19,480 --> 00:05:22,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's in all kinds of animals. But we are 95 00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:26,640 Speaker 1: really kind of great at making it. And I was 96 00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:28,640 Speaker 1: about to say hooked on it, but that implies the 97 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:30,960 Speaker 1: whole addiction thing, and I don't want to go down 98 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:34,760 Speaker 1: that road. But humans love the stuff, and we produce 99 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:38,039 Speaker 1: about three times as much as other primates do. 100 00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:43,200 Speaker 2: Yes, And in fact, Emily Deans wrote an article in 101 00:05:43,240 --> 00:05:47,360 Speaker 2: twenty eleven I think on psychology today. She's an evolutionary psychiatrist, 102 00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:51,080 Speaker 2: and she said that dopamine is what made humans so successful. 103 00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:55,599 Speaker 2: And from what I can tell, the latest research about 104 00:05:55,600 --> 00:05:58,520 Speaker 2: dopamine is that it essentially is what allows us to 105 00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:02,360 Speaker 2: learn about the world around us. We make connections that 106 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:05,640 Speaker 2: collectively form our mental map of the world, of how 107 00:06:05,640 --> 00:06:08,360 Speaker 2: we're to behavior on other people, of how we do 108 00:06:08,440 --> 00:06:11,760 Speaker 2: things like go get food, like that dopamine is somehow 109 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:17,080 Speaker 2: behind all of it, and that because we're so responsive 110 00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:20,520 Speaker 2: to dopamine and we produce so much dopamine compared to 111 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:25,839 Speaker 2: other animals in the animal kingdom. That is, conceivably what 112 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:29,680 Speaker 2: has allowed us to become as successful as we are 113 00:06:30,360 --> 00:06:33,520 Speaker 2: compared to other animals in that nuts like it could 114 00:06:33,560 --> 00:06:35,560 Speaker 2: all just come down to dopamine essentially. 115 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:41,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, man, opposable thumbs maybe. 116 00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:42,560 Speaker 2: Sure, But I mean, what are opposable thumbs if you 117 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:46,640 Speaker 2: can't have get the wear with all the to move it. 118 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:48,880 Speaker 1: True, but if you had the wherewithal to move it, 119 00:06:48,960 --> 00:06:49,960 Speaker 1: you could grab something. 120 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:53,680 Speaker 2: Yes, you can use the heels of both hands just 121 00:06:53,720 --> 00:06:54,360 Speaker 2: like a thumb. 122 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:56,839 Speaker 1: Are you under selling the opposable thumb? 123 00:06:57,080 --> 00:06:59,920 Speaker 2: Yes, I'm sick of the imposable thumb always hogging the spot. 124 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:01,560 Speaker 2: It's dopamine's time. 125 00:07:02,680 --> 00:07:04,840 Speaker 1: You can get those removed. You know, see how you do? 126 00:07:05,279 --> 00:07:08,240 Speaker 2: I guess that sounds like a dare to me, Chuck. 127 00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:09,920 Speaker 1: Say goodbye to your tennis game. 128 00:07:10,720 --> 00:07:12,480 Speaker 2: I can play it just by holding the racket with 129 00:07:12,520 --> 00:07:13,760 Speaker 2: the both heels in my hand. 130 00:07:14,520 --> 00:07:16,800 Speaker 1: I guess we should have said pickleball. That'd be more current, right, 131 00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:19,600 Speaker 1: I don't play pickleball. I haven't tried it yet. 132 00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:23,120 Speaker 2: I want to, though, Okay, Well, there's plenty of places 133 00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:24,520 Speaker 2: and people to play it with. 134 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:27,680 Speaker 1: Yet I have found no one or no place. 135 00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:31,239 Speaker 2: Oh, I'm sure somebody will write in and offer to play. 136 00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:34,080 Speaker 1: With you, of course, and then I go out there 137 00:07:34,120 --> 00:07:35,679 Speaker 1: and I like blow my acl or something. 138 00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:37,800 Speaker 2: Oh god, that was nice. 139 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:40,840 Speaker 1: So at the highest level, you know, we kind of 140 00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:46,040 Speaker 1: talked about this a thousand times before, but dopamine functions 141 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:51,080 Speaker 1: as a neurotransmitter. It enables signals to pass through these gaps, 142 00:07:51,120 --> 00:07:55,560 Speaker 1: these synapses and make connection from neuron to neuron. And 143 00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:58,840 Speaker 1: that's just sort of the bird's eye view. But there 144 00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:00,600 Speaker 1: are all kinds of things that dope I mean does, 145 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:03,800 Speaker 1: and depending what kinds of neurons it's talking to and 146 00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:08,160 Speaker 1: it's introducing to one another, it's gonna have different effects 147 00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:09,000 Speaker 1: on the human body. 148 00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:13,120 Speaker 2: Yes, So there's D one to D five I think, 149 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:20,000 Speaker 2: types of receptors, dopamine receptors and four pathways that they follow, 150 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 2: and like you said, depending on what receptor is being 151 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:26,800 Speaker 2: activated and what pathways being followed, all sorts of different 152 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:32,640 Speaker 2: stuff can happen. Dopaminees associated with motor control, learning, memory. 153 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:37,960 Speaker 2: Malfunctions in it can result in psychosis. They use dopamine 154 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:40,880 Speaker 2: as a vaso stimulant to treat heart conditions. That has 155 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:44,360 Speaker 2: just a cluster of different effects on the body depending 156 00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:49,319 Speaker 2: on where it's being processed, like what pathway it's being processed, right, 157 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:51,440 Speaker 2: And I think I said there's four of them total. 158 00:08:52,559 --> 00:08:53,480 Speaker 1: Did you want to talk about this? 159 00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:55,720 Speaker 2: I feel like we should. Okay. 160 00:08:56,080 --> 00:09:00,160 Speaker 1: The first one is the nigros striatal tract. Nice, you 161 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:03,280 Speaker 1: mentioned motor control first, and that's the tract that has 162 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:04,280 Speaker 1: to do with motor control. 163 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:08,959 Speaker 2: Yeah, so if those aren't working correctly. The one that 164 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:14,800 Speaker 2: the dopamine neurons are the dopaminergic pathway in the nigrostriadal 165 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:18,920 Speaker 2: tract that can result in Parkinson's. It's very famously associated 166 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:22,600 Speaker 2: with dopamine for anybody who has read Awakenings or saw 167 00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:26,240 Speaker 2: the movie Yeah, which will probably talk about a little 168 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:31,040 Speaker 2: bit more later that movie. Yeah, Okay, I got a great, 169 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:32,880 Speaker 2: great bit up my sleeve. 170 00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:37,720 Speaker 1: Okay. The second pathway is a Mezzo Corty call pathway 171 00:09:38,280 --> 00:09:42,240 Speaker 1: that has a lot to do with executive functioning, prioritizing stuff, 172 00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:45,920 Speaker 1: how your brain plans things, how it files away stuff, 173 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:49,800 Speaker 1: and how it you know, how it organizes your overall 174 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:52,120 Speaker 1: sort of priorities. 175 00:09:52,679 --> 00:09:55,320 Speaker 2: Yes, and now it's time to talk about the most 176 00:09:55,440 --> 00:10:02,000 Speaker 2: random dopaminergic pathway of all the two bear fundibular pathway 177 00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:04,160 Speaker 2: two boro in fundibular. 178 00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:07,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think get it right the first time. 179 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:11,199 Speaker 2: Okay, we'll edit out the second one. Then we'll put 180 00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:14,280 Speaker 2: in a slide whistle over it, so that connects us 181 00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:17,960 Speaker 2: the hypothalamus and the petuitary gland. And it's from what 182 00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:19,520 Speaker 2: I can tell, I was like, well, what else does 183 00:10:19,559 --> 00:10:22,920 Speaker 2: it do? It's sole The sole role of this pathway 184 00:10:23,440 --> 00:10:27,360 Speaker 2: is to block the production of milk or yes, to 185 00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:32,319 Speaker 2: prevent the production of milk in the female breast of mammals. 186 00:10:32,559 --> 00:10:35,240 Speaker 2: That's what it does. That's that that's that pathway's role. 187 00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:39,000 Speaker 2: And if you block that pathway, the milk production begins. 188 00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:40,120 Speaker 2: Isn't that interesting? 189 00:10:40,920 --> 00:10:43,920 Speaker 1: Yeah? We talked about that in the two parter, the 190 00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:45,120 Speaker 1: old Breastfeeding two parter. 191 00:10:45,280 --> 00:10:47,960 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, oh I don't remember that. 192 00:10:48,800 --> 00:10:53,240 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, wow where No, I have a terrible memory. 193 00:10:53,320 --> 00:10:54,319 Speaker 1: I know you're making fun of me. 194 00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:55,160 Speaker 2: Uh. 195 00:10:55,200 --> 00:10:59,120 Speaker 1: There's there's also the mesolimbic pathway. We've talked a lot 196 00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:04,559 Speaker 1: about the Olympics in many episodes, but reward and emotion 197 00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:07,679 Speaker 1: and this is the one where this is the one 198 00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:10,400 Speaker 1: that gets all the pressed because this is the one 199 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:13,480 Speaker 1: that has to deal with addiction pleasure, and we're going 200 00:11:13,559 --> 00:11:17,200 Speaker 1: to talk a lot about reward and how reward factors 201 00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:18,480 Speaker 1: into how dopamine works. 202 00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:21,640 Speaker 2: Right, This is the reason why some people get the 203 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:28,239 Speaker 2: chemical drawing of the molecular drawing of dopamine like tattooed 204 00:11:28,280 --> 00:11:32,720 Speaker 2: on their wrists, because they're such so hedonic and into pleasure. 205 00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:36,000 Speaker 2: That's why you might see somebody with that because of 206 00:11:36,040 --> 00:11:36,800 Speaker 2: that pathway. 207 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:38,040 Speaker 1: I never heard of that. 208 00:11:38,440 --> 00:11:42,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a thing. Unfortunately it turns out to be 209 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:45,679 Speaker 2: a misinterpretation, but it is a thing that people do sometimes. 210 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:51,040 Speaker 1: Sure. So you know, we talked about misunderstandings about dopamine, 211 00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:55,079 Speaker 1: and up until not too long ago, we didn't know 212 00:11:55,200 --> 00:11:59,480 Speaker 1: a lot about exactly how dopamine worked in the body. 213 00:11:59,559 --> 00:12:02,880 Speaker 1: And there was a misguided thought that there was something 214 00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:08,200 Speaker 1: called volume transmission at work, which was you just sort of, well, 215 00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:11,400 Speaker 1: you don't flood we'll talk about, you know, artificially flooding dopamine, 216 00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:15,680 Speaker 1: which is also a problem that resulted from this misnomer. 217 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:19,400 Speaker 1: But dopamine just went very slowly, it was not very 218 00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:22,319 Speaker 1: specific at all, just kind of washed over the brain 219 00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:26,240 Speaker 1: and if it made some connections with various neurons, then 220 00:12:26,280 --> 00:12:29,200 Speaker 1: that was kind of the dumb luck of dopamine, because 221 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:30,440 Speaker 1: dopamine is just dopey. 222 00:12:30,720 --> 00:12:33,480 Speaker 2: Right. Here's a great example of just how wrong we 223 00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:38,040 Speaker 2: got dopamine. It turns out the process that dopamine is 224 00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:41,960 Speaker 2: excreted and crosses into the synapse and creates like an 225 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:45,880 Speaker 2: electrical electrical transmission in the brain is the exact opposite, 226 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:47,760 Speaker 2: totally volume transmission. 227 00:12:47,880 --> 00:12:48,120 Speaker 1: Yeah. 228 00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:50,960 Speaker 2: It could not be more opposite then the idea that 229 00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:53,800 Speaker 2: just floods slowly across the brain and whatever it runs 230 00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:58,640 Speaker 2: into it runs into. We found that in milliseconds, a 231 00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:03,880 Speaker 2: precise squirt of dopamine hits exactly the right neuron in 232 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:07,120 Speaker 2: exactly the right place. It's right on the money. That's 233 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:11,120 Speaker 2: how dopamine is excreted, the exact opposite of volume transmission. 234 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:14,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, and we learned that not too long ago twenty eighteen, 235 00:13:15,679 --> 00:13:20,719 Speaker 1: medical researchers at HAVID released this paper and said, hey, 236 00:13:20,720 --> 00:13:24,160 Speaker 1: guess what, everyone is the opposite of everything you've been saying, 237 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:28,360 Speaker 1: and everyone want oh okay, sorry about that. Sure might be. 238 00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:33,920 Speaker 2: So, after the dopamine is excreted and it does its job, 239 00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:38,280 Speaker 2: it actually breaks down remarkably quickly. It turns into something 240 00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:42,880 Speaker 2: it's metabolized and it is something called homovanillic acid, right, 241 00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:45,959 Speaker 2: And from what I can tell, I don't know what 242 00:13:46,040 --> 00:13:50,280 Speaker 2: the homo does to the vanillic acid, but vanillic acid 243 00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:53,600 Speaker 2: is the flavor of vanilla. So from what I can tell, 244 00:13:53,640 --> 00:13:58,160 Speaker 2: if you tasted the homovanillic acid, which is like the 245 00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:01,920 Speaker 2: metabolite found in cirro spinal fluid that we test to 246 00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:05,000 Speaker 2: see how much dopamine you have in your brain at 247 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:09,640 Speaker 2: any given time, it may taste like vanilla. Wow, isn't 248 00:14:09,679 --> 00:14:14,439 Speaker 2: that interesting? It's gross. It is gross, and I don't know. Also, 249 00:14:14,440 --> 00:14:18,120 Speaker 2: if we said that just twenty thousand neurons are capable 250 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:22,840 Speaker 2: of synthesizing dopamine, but that's a really small proportion of 251 00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:25,640 Speaker 2: the total number of neurons we have to about one 252 00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:29,160 Speaker 2: hundred billion, I think, yeah, absolutely, you want to take 253 00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:30,000 Speaker 2: a break. 254 00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:33,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, we'll break and we'll talk about, well what everyone 255 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:35,760 Speaker 1: wants to hear about, which is how dopamine and pleasure 256 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:37,680 Speaker 1: hold hands with one another. 257 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:05,120 Speaker 2: So check this whole under I should say, misunderstanding of 258 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:08,680 Speaker 2: dopamine as the ultimate pleasure chemical. If you take a 259 00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:11,160 Speaker 2: drag off a cigarette, if you snort a line of coke, 260 00:15:11,280 --> 00:15:14,120 Speaker 2: if if the person you love like touches your hand. 261 00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:19,520 Speaker 2: If you get like an a from from the teacher, like, 262 00:15:19,560 --> 00:15:21,760 Speaker 2: you're gonna get a hit at dopamine, and that's what 263 00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:26,080 Speaker 2: that's what your reward is. That's it's pretty old. It's 264 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:28,080 Speaker 2: an old idea at least it dates back to the 265 00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:30,600 Speaker 2: middle of the twentieth century, which is we're getting further 266 00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:35,440 Speaker 2: and further away from which makes me gulp. But that 267 00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:39,120 Speaker 2: idea being discredited is pretty old too, Like it didn't 268 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:42,360 Speaker 2: last very long. The problem is its legacy stuck around 269 00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:44,360 Speaker 2: for a really long time. It's still around today. 270 00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:48,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. There was a researcher speaking of old 271 00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:51,920 Speaker 1: named James Olds in the fifties and sixties who did 272 00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:56,000 Speaker 1: some experiments with rats and said, hey, every time I 273 00:15:56,120 --> 00:15:59,840 Speaker 1: give these rats a little electrical stimulation and just the 274 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:03,040 Speaker 1: right place right there behind the ear, they're going to 275 00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:06,360 Speaker 1: keep pulling that lever down or whatever act I'm making 276 00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:08,760 Speaker 1: them do. That. They'll just do that over and over 277 00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:10,600 Speaker 1: and over and over and over as long as I 278 00:16:10,680 --> 00:16:12,000 Speaker 1: keep stimulating that area. 279 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:16,600 Speaker 2: Right. So what they said was, Okay, there's something going 280 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:21,640 Speaker 2: on with dopamine and this I guess pleasurable act that 281 00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:25,080 Speaker 2: the rat is doing to itself, and that. 282 00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:27,120 Speaker 1: Got followed up in Whoa, Whoa. 283 00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:29,200 Speaker 2: That got followed up in the seventies by a guy 284 00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:35,000 Speaker 2: named Roy Wise who depleted dopamine receptors in rats and 285 00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:37,760 Speaker 2: found that they would not seek out food and they 286 00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:42,000 Speaker 2: wouldn't seek out methamphetamines that were just there on the offer. 287 00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:44,120 Speaker 2: Those rats could have as much meth as they wanted, 288 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:46,600 Speaker 2: and they were like, no, I don't want any. And 289 00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:51,880 Speaker 2: crucially critically, roy Wise and his colleagues misinterpreted that as 290 00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:56,240 Speaker 2: a lack of experience of pleasure, not a lack of motivation. 291 00:16:56,800 --> 00:16:59,080 Speaker 2: And it wasn't until the eighties that some other people 292 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:00,800 Speaker 2: came along and they were like, no, oh, we've been 293 00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:02,360 Speaker 2: getting this wrong all this time. 294 00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:06,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, in the eighties they use sugar instead of meth amphetamine, 295 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:10,280 Speaker 1: I guess. And once again, very kind of cruelly, they 296 00:17:10,320 --> 00:17:15,360 Speaker 1: cut off, they didn't allow them any dopamine. They killed 297 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:17,760 Speaker 1: them off with drugs. But this time they gave them 298 00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:21,840 Speaker 1: the sugar and they said they're liking the sugar. You 299 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:23,760 Speaker 1: can tell by the look on that little guy's face, 300 00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:26,840 Speaker 1: and he enjoys it. But and this is the key, 301 00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:29,280 Speaker 1: it's not coming back and saying give me more sugar, 302 00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:30,440 Speaker 1: Give me more sugar. 303 00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:32,920 Speaker 2: Right, or give me more meth. 304 00:17:34,359 --> 00:17:34,639 Speaker 1: Sure. 305 00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:39,280 Speaker 2: So this whole thing, this changed our understanding, at least 306 00:17:39,280 --> 00:17:43,520 Speaker 2: in the academia among people who study this kind of thing. 307 00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:47,160 Speaker 2: We realized we were misinterpreting what we were seeing and 308 00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:51,360 Speaker 2: that a lack of dopamine didn't lead to a lack 309 00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:56,520 Speaker 2: of pleasure called an ahdonia or an hodonia. It was 310 00:17:57,640 --> 00:18:00,879 Speaker 2: a lack of motivation to seek out that. That's the 311 00:18:00,920 --> 00:18:03,760 Speaker 2: effect of not having enough dopamine that we found from 312 00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:06,840 Speaker 2: those rat tests. So like this whole new framework of 313 00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:10,119 Speaker 2: understanding it kind of came along because, to be clear, 314 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:15,440 Speaker 2: dopamine is very much associated with things that give us pleasure, 315 00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:19,239 Speaker 2: and it does seem like the more pleasurable something is, 316 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:22,840 Speaker 2: the more dopamine gets released. Like, for example, I think 317 00:18:23,080 --> 00:18:25,600 Speaker 2: I saw it like eating something that tastes really good 318 00:18:26,520 --> 00:18:30,280 Speaker 2: increases your dopamine levels by one hundred percent sometimes yeah, 319 00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:35,160 Speaker 2: but cocaine increases your dopamine levels ten times that. So 320 00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:39,119 Speaker 2: the more intense the pleasurable experience is, the more dopamine 321 00:18:39,359 --> 00:18:42,600 Speaker 2: gets released. So it's definitely associated with it. What they 322 00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:46,040 Speaker 2: found is like the dopamine is not making you feel pleasure. 323 00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:49,960 Speaker 2: There's something else involved. It's just it's never caught with 324 00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:52,520 Speaker 2: the smoking gun, but it's always there when the dead 325 00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:55,320 Speaker 2: body's found, and it has this mysterious smile on its 326 00:18:55,320 --> 00:18:57,879 Speaker 2: face because I know you can't prove anything. 327 00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:01,679 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, it's liking versus And that's a theory of 328 00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:07,399 Speaker 1: reward behavior. Where liking is that pleasure that hits you 329 00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:10,880 Speaker 1: get right when you put that bite of peanut butter 330 00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:14,080 Speaker 1: pie in your mouth, is that pleasure. Wanting is the 331 00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:17,639 Speaker 1: motivation to earn the reward that you get out of 332 00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:22,560 Speaker 1: having that peanut butter pie. Like you know, you're up 333 00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:26,280 Speaker 1: in the hotel room. They don't have room service, but 334 00:19:26,359 --> 00:19:27,840 Speaker 1: you can get up out of bed, and you can 335 00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:31,120 Speaker 1: get dressed, and you can get down the stairs because 336 00:19:31,119 --> 00:19:33,399 Speaker 1: the elevator's broken and get that peanut butter pie if 337 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:39,760 Speaker 1: you want to. But dopamine isn't enough to motivate you 338 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:42,480 Speaker 1: to get up and go get that peanut butter pie necessarily, 339 00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:45,440 Speaker 1: even though you have great, great memories of the taste 340 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:47,800 Speaker 1: of it on your tongue and you'd love that stuff. 341 00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:50,520 Speaker 2: You're right. But if you do get up and go 342 00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:52,520 Speaker 2: get that peanut butter pie, that means that in the 343 00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:56,320 Speaker 2: past you've had peanut butter pie or have created an 344 00:19:56,359 --> 00:19:59,000 Speaker 2: image of the peanut butter pie you've never had that's 345 00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:03,600 Speaker 2: so great. The dopamine is produced in enough amounts to 346 00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:06,280 Speaker 2: actually get you up out of bed, dressed and going 347 00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:08,520 Speaker 2: down the stairs to get that peanut butter pie. They're 348 00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:09,600 Speaker 2: related in that way. 349 00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:14,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, So it's not actually causing the pleasure. It's 350 00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:18,919 Speaker 1: just influencing how your brain is taking all this stuff 351 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:21,680 Speaker 1: in basically, and there are a couple of different ways 352 00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:25,160 Speaker 1: of looking at how this happens. There's one theory called 353 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:30,240 Speaker 1: a that it's prediction error, so you get more bang 354 00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:34,359 Speaker 1: for your buck. Basically, you expected to like that peanut 355 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:37,160 Speaker 1: butter pie, but this was the best peanut butter pie 356 00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:40,240 Speaker 1: you've ever had, maybe the best dessert you've ever had 357 00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:43,480 Speaker 1: in your life, and you're like, wow, your brain says 358 00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:45,760 Speaker 1: that was way way better than I thought it was 359 00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:47,840 Speaker 1: going to be, so it reinforces. 360 00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:50,560 Speaker 2: It right, And to put it in kind of computational terms, 361 00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:56,239 Speaker 2: dopamine is a prediction error somehow that chemical measures the 362 00:20:56,359 --> 00:21:00,439 Speaker 2: difference between what you expected and the amazing reward you got, 363 00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:04,400 Speaker 2: and the greater the difference, the more pronounced a connection 364 00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:07,320 Speaker 2: that dopamine is going to make between going and getting 365 00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:10,480 Speaker 2: peanut butter pie and eating peanut butter pie, so you'll 366 00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:12,520 Speaker 2: have more motivation to do it next time. 367 00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:16,200 Speaker 1: Yeah. The other way of thinking about it is the 368 00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:21,280 Speaker 1: dopamine itself is the motivational signal. So it's what makes 369 00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:23,879 Speaker 1: me get out of that bed and put on my 370 00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:28,600 Speaker 1: clothes and actually go down those stairs, because I'm motivated 371 00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:30,600 Speaker 1: to go get that reward. 372 00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:34,280 Speaker 2: Right, And this is where that Awakenings anecdote comes in. 373 00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:35,280 Speaker 1: Let's hear it. 374 00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:38,560 Speaker 2: So you were talking about how, you know, the peanut 375 00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:40,520 Speaker 2: butter pie motivating you to get out of bed and 376 00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:47,000 Speaker 2: actually go. That definitely jibes with research, particularly something reported 377 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:49,520 Speaker 2: by Oliver Sachs in the book and then later the 378 00:21:49,560 --> 00:21:56,280 Speaker 2: movie Awakenings. There was an epidemic of something called encephalitic lethargia, 379 00:21:57,280 --> 00:22:00,320 Speaker 2: which is what happened to Robert de Niro's character. Remember 380 00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:02,399 Speaker 2: as a boy, he caught this thing and he just 381 00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:07,720 Speaker 2: kind of frozen place. It's where you develop Parkinson's symptoms 382 00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:10,320 Speaker 2: so much that you just don't you can't move. You 383 00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:16,600 Speaker 2: cannot move. You have you don't have the required dopamine 384 00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:19,679 Speaker 2: to actually move, so you're just sitting there, frozen in 385 00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:23,160 Speaker 2: place like a statue. But anybody who saw this movie 386 00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:26,920 Speaker 2: remembers being amazed by this scene. If a certain patient 387 00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:31,840 Speaker 2: is stimulated, their dopamine is stimulated just enough, they can 388 00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:35,320 Speaker 2: actually overcome that being frozen in place. And so there's 389 00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:38,520 Speaker 2: a famous scene where Oliver Sax tossed one of the 390 00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:42,119 Speaker 2: patients some oranges and she caught them like she was 391 00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:43,760 Speaker 2: a frozen sets and all of a sudden she's catching 392 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:47,920 Speaker 2: oranges and then juggles with them. Or there's another patient 393 00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:51,119 Speaker 2: that was on the beach, I believe in their wheelchair 394 00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:54,280 Speaker 2: saw someone drowning and was motivated to get up and 395 00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:57,199 Speaker 2: go save the person and then come back and go 396 00:22:57,320 --> 00:22:59,960 Speaker 2: back to this frozen statue kind of stasis. 397 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:01,600 Speaker 1: Great scene. 398 00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:06,240 Speaker 2: It is so like that has to do with the 399 00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:12,040 Speaker 2: motivational aspect of dopamine, and that given the right stimulus, 400 00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:16,720 Speaker 2: even something that tremendous as just a crazy amount of 401 00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:21,080 Speaker 2: parkins and symptoms can be overcome or overwhelmed by that 402 00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:22,120 Speaker 2: dopamine hit. 403 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:25,400 Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, And then jumping back to that first one, 404 00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:30,440 Speaker 1: the prediction era, they've done research on people who gamble, 405 00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:33,479 Speaker 1: who play cards and play the slot machines and stuff, 406 00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:39,119 Speaker 1: and their brains experience about the same amount of dopamine 407 00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:42,760 Speaker 1: activity when they almost win. Like you got the big 408 00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:44,879 Speaker 1: pot in the middle of the table you're playing poker, 409 00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:49,200 Speaker 1: and you lose it the last second, your dopamine level 410 00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:51,560 Speaker 1: will be about the same as if you had actually 411 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:54,280 Speaker 1: won it. Yes, which is pretty remarkable. 412 00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:57,639 Speaker 2: And then I think it kind of qualifies as a 413 00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:04,280 Speaker 2: third interpretation, The most current study I've seen sees dopamine 414 00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:07,160 Speaker 2: is essentially the thing that allows us to learn. If 415 00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:10,880 Speaker 2: you connect one thing to another, it's because dopamine had 416 00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:14,520 Speaker 2: you make that connection, and then depending on what kind 417 00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:17,400 Speaker 2: of effect those two things have on you, that connection 418 00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:20,080 Speaker 2: might be very very strong, so you're motivated to go 419 00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:22,680 Speaker 2: seek it out again. But at base, what dopamine is 420 00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:25,919 Speaker 2: doing is allowing us to form connections. Imagine the world 421 00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:29,040 Speaker 2: if we didn't connect one thing to another, like if 422 00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:32,600 Speaker 2: I didn't connect turning on the computer and stepping up 423 00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:37,000 Speaker 2: to the microphone and recording a podcast, like, we wouldn't 424 00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:39,960 Speaker 2: do anything. We would just be completely lost if we 425 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:43,720 Speaker 2: couldn't make connections. And it seems like dopamine is the basis. 426 00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:43,800 Speaker 1: Of all that. 427 00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:47,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, pretty cool, Like the whole world would suffer because 428 00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:49,360 Speaker 2: we wouldn't be podcasting. 429 00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:55,720 Speaker 1: Chuck, Oh, that's debatable. You know, were not poopooing the 430 00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:59,800 Speaker 1: idea that addiction and dopamine are heavily tied with one another. 431 00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:03,640 Speaker 1: We're just sort of trying to point out that there's 432 00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:05,280 Speaker 1: a lot of other things at play when it comes 433 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:08,520 Speaker 1: to dopamine, and that sort of is unfairly maybe gotten 434 00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:10,840 Speaker 1: all the press. But we do have to talk about 435 00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:13,720 Speaker 1: it some more. We talked about it plenty of time, 436 00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:18,399 Speaker 1: certainly in our Addiction podcast episodes, but it does play 437 00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:21,959 Speaker 1: a pretty big role in drug abuse and addiction. It 438 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:27,440 Speaker 1: does reinforce the you know, the idea that you want 439 00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:30,240 Speaker 1: to keep using those drugs because it's making you feel good. 440 00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:34,440 Speaker 1: And when we're talking about you know, you're talking about 441 00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:38,920 Speaker 1: the the woman juggling oranges in that movie, and how 442 00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:43,080 Speaker 1: remarkable that is. If they've given you Parkinson's drugs and 443 00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:47,000 Speaker 1: they just flood your brain with dopamine. They found that 444 00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:49,320 Speaker 1: ten percent of the people that have had that treatment 445 00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:53,320 Speaker 1: turn into gambling addicts. And I would imagine there are 446 00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:56,320 Speaker 1: people who already gambled. I don't think it like drove 447 00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:59,480 Speaker 1: them to start gambling, but that just goes to show 448 00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:02,440 Speaker 1: you the power of like what a flood of dopamine 449 00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:04,720 Speaker 1: will do to your brain, and it's pretty it's a 450 00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:07,439 Speaker 1: pretty clunky way to deal with that, I think. 451 00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:10,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's what you were referring to earlier 452 00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:13,960 Speaker 2: when you were saying, like that understanding of volume transmission, 453 00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:18,399 Speaker 2: theory of dopamine release. That's what the drugs are based on, 454 00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:22,240 Speaker 2: that understanding and that misunderstanding, and like, yeah, that's what happens. 455 00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:24,600 Speaker 2: It's like, yes, if it does crawl across the brain 456 00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:28,000 Speaker 2: and runs into whatever neurons that it can trigger, it's 457 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:30,119 Speaker 2: going to have all sorts of other knock on effects. 458 00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:31,199 Speaker 1: Yeah, totally. 459 00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:36,320 Speaker 2: So, I guess our current understanding of how dopamine relates 460 00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:43,440 Speaker 2: to addiction is that it connects drugs with pleasure. And 461 00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:46,720 Speaker 2: as I was saying before, the more intense the experience, 462 00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:51,280 Speaker 2: especially the reward, you can have a negative experience, and 463 00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:53,399 Speaker 2: I think they're starting to figure out dopamine has something 464 00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:56,359 Speaker 2: to do with that too. But as far as we know, 465 00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:01,560 Speaker 2: the more intense the reward, the greater the flood of dopamine, 466 00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:04,880 Speaker 2: and so the greater the stronger the connection you make 467 00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:08,520 Speaker 2: between you know, pressing a lever and a scientist giving 468 00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:09,359 Speaker 2: you a bunch of math. 469 00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:14,240 Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, but that is, to be clear, just part 470 00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:18,560 Speaker 1: of the recipe of what leads to addiction. I don't 471 00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:21,320 Speaker 1: maybe there are people out there saying that, but I 472 00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:23,680 Speaker 1: don't know if anyone really is saying like it's all 473 00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:26,919 Speaker 1: because of dopamine. No, it is part of the recipe 474 00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:33,159 Speaker 1: in addition obviously to your genetics. Just the fact that 475 00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:37,960 Speaker 1: drugs are out there and available and their environmental pressures 476 00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:41,840 Speaker 1: and influences all kinds of reasons that people start to 477 00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:45,520 Speaker 1: take drugs or continue to take drugs, and as far 478 00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:49,240 Speaker 1: as the continuation, dopamine is definitely a part of it. 479 00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:52,680 Speaker 2: Right, And so one of the ways that you learn 480 00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:57,439 Speaker 2: to take drugs is not just from the fact that 481 00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:00,200 Speaker 2: your brain is flooded with dopamine, which allows you to 482 00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:04,560 Speaker 2: make that connection very strongly, but the brain actually changes 483 00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:07,960 Speaker 2: in response to those increased floods of dopamine because it's 484 00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:11,120 Speaker 2: not set up to release dopamine like that repeatedly over 485 00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:12,960 Speaker 2: long periods of time. It can do it once in 486 00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:16,200 Speaker 2: a while, yeah, but you can't really do it too 487 00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:20,560 Speaker 2: often because then the brain responds by shutting down dopamine receptors. 488 00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:25,040 Speaker 2: The problem is is that this means that you have 489 00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:28,960 Speaker 2: to do more drugs to get that sensation as far 490 00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:33,000 Speaker 2: as you know, and that's what creates the cycle of 491 00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:38,000 Speaker 2: addiction that to me smells vaguely of being almost out 492 00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:38,440 Speaker 2: of date. 493 00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:42,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, I know what you're talking about. 494 00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:45,959 Speaker 2: But it does make sense then that the ideal drug 495 00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:50,520 Speaker 2: would trigger a maximum release of feel good chemicals but 496 00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:53,560 Speaker 2: a minimum release of dopamine. If anybody could ever come 497 00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:55,360 Speaker 2: up with a drug like that, people be able to 498 00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:57,280 Speaker 2: do drugs all the time, they'd never get addicted. 499 00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:02,280 Speaker 1: Sure, but you know they have other negative effects on 500 00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:02,640 Speaker 1: the body. 501 00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:04,200 Speaker 2: Sure, sure, I can't forget about that. 502 00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:10,360 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. The other bad thing obviously, if you're gonna 503 00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:12,800 Speaker 1: do the amount of drugs it takes to shut down 504 00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:15,880 Speaker 1: your dopamine receptors, because your body's like wait, wait, wait, 505 00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:18,240 Speaker 1: this isn't right. Let me shut this down. Is it's 506 00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:21,560 Speaker 1: not just shutting down the dopamine receptor that makes you 507 00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:24,440 Speaker 1: want to, you know, do more cocaine or whatever. It's 508 00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:29,720 Speaker 1: just shutting your dopamine receptors down. So you mentioned it earlier, Anedonia, 509 00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:33,440 Speaker 1: that's the idea that you don't receive pleasure from any activity. 510 00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:36,040 Speaker 1: And if all of a sudden your dopamine has been 511 00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:39,160 Speaker 1: shut down such because you've been doing drugs that you're 512 00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:44,400 Speaker 1: not getting any kind of pleasant, feel good stimulation from life, 513 00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:47,840 Speaker 1: then that could be another reason that you up your 514 00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:49,640 Speaker 1: desire to do drugs. 515 00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:54,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, and then there's one other factor involved that with 516 00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:58,080 Speaker 2: fewer dopamine receptor sites. Remember you said that one of 517 00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:04,240 Speaker 2: those dopaminergic pathways is really to executive function, like impulse control, responsibility, 518 00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:08,160 Speaker 2: that kind of stuff. Yeah, Well, with lower levels of dopamine, 519 00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:12,480 Speaker 2: the theory goes that you are more likely to engage 520 00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:17,040 Speaker 2: in reckless behavior to get drugs. You might do things 521 00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:19,400 Speaker 2: that you normally wouldn't do, not because you're just this 522 00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:23,840 Speaker 2: addict who has to have it, but partially also because 523 00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:26,440 Speaker 2: you don't have the impulse control that you did before 524 00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:30,360 Speaker 2: you became addicted to drugs in your dopamine receptor started 525 00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:31,000 Speaker 2: shutting down. 526 00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:34,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think that's I mean, we talked about 527 00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:37,880 Speaker 1: it in the addiction app It's not just the effect 528 00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:40,880 Speaker 1: that the drug has on your body, the negative effects 529 00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:45,040 Speaker 1: that it physiologically has on your body, but the behaviors 530 00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:48,080 Speaker 1: that you start engaging in when you're under the influence 531 00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:50,360 Speaker 1: of drugs and want more drugs and maybe can't find 532 00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:56,800 Speaker 1: the drugs. That's maybe almost worse than the physiological ramifications, 533 00:30:56,840 --> 00:30:57,160 Speaker 1: you know. 534 00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:00,239 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, for sure. And it also ties in with 535 00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:04,040 Speaker 2: risk taking because dopamine is connected to risk taking, and 536 00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:06,280 Speaker 2: in fact, they found that some people seem to be 537 00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:13,320 Speaker 2: biologically physiologically predisposed to risk taking based on their dopamine 538 00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:16,160 Speaker 2: levels that in fact, they find that they have fewer 539 00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:22,160 Speaker 2: what are called autoreceptors. Apparently, over time we've evolved to 540 00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:26,920 Speaker 2: create on dopamine neural cells a site called the auto 541 00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:29,320 Speaker 2: receptor that actually catches some of the dopamine. It helps 542 00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:32,239 Speaker 2: regulate it, like it never makes it out, so it 543 00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:35,560 Speaker 2: keeps the amount of dopamine down to a regulated level. 544 00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:38,440 Speaker 2: So the fewer auto receptors you have, if you're still 545 00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:42,400 Speaker 2: pumping out dopamine, you get a much greater impact from 546 00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:45,600 Speaker 2: that dopamine. And they have correlated that to risk taking. 547 00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:50,320 Speaker 2: People who have fewer dopaminergic auto receptors take more risks, 548 00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:51,960 Speaker 2: at least according to some studies. 549 00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:56,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, and they've also done studies where they found that 550 00:31:56,920 --> 00:32:00,000 Speaker 1: that risk should or needs to be tied to a reward, 551 00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:03,320 Speaker 1: like a gain Basically, there was a study from the 552 00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:07,720 Speaker 1: University of College in London in twenty fifteen that said 553 00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:11,920 Speaker 1: subjects whose dopamine levels was higher it was boosted artificially 554 00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:16,320 Speaker 1: with medication would choose risky options more often if it 555 00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:19,960 Speaker 1: involved a potential gain. They didn't see that same thing 556 00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:22,800 Speaker 1: going on if there was a potential loss involved. So 557 00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:27,840 Speaker 1: there's definitely a tie to a gain or another way 558 00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:29,040 Speaker 1: of saying that would be a reward. 559 00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:33,880 Speaker 2: Yes. And then also that impulse control is also a 560 00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:40,640 Speaker 2: huge hallmark of ADHD symptoms, and so ADHD is very 561 00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:46,960 Speaker 2: commonly associated with some sort of dopamine deficiency. And from 562 00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:50,240 Speaker 2: what I've seen, there isn't a like an across the board. 563 00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:53,400 Speaker 2: We haven't discovered some across the board type of brain 564 00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:56,640 Speaker 2: that's like yep, if you have this brain, you have ADHD, 565 00:32:56,680 --> 00:33:00,520 Speaker 2: and vice versa. And we're not even certain exactactly what 566 00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:04,640 Speaker 2: effect the dopamine is having. We're almost just kind of 567 00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:09,560 Speaker 2: like seeing effects that are the behavior of people with 568 00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:13,400 Speaker 2: ADHD and saying, hey, we know that dopamine does that, 569 00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:15,920 Speaker 2: or if you don't have dopamine, you're more likely to 570 00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:19,960 Speaker 2: do this. So there's this correlation, it's just not it's 571 00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:23,320 Speaker 2: never been like completely shown yet. I think it probably 572 00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:26,360 Speaker 2: will be at some time. But we don't really know 573 00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:31,240 Speaker 2: how ADHD is linked to dopamine. But there's or almost 574 00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:35,200 Speaker 2: certain that dopamine drives at least some of the ADHD symptoms. 575 00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:39,160 Speaker 2: It's just because of that, people have made leaps in understanding. 576 00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:42,560 Speaker 2: Like there's a there's a long standing myth about people 577 00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:46,560 Speaker 2: with ADHD that they do these impulsive behaviors to get 578 00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:49,120 Speaker 2: a hit of dopamine. Well, it's based on that old 579 00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:53,440 Speaker 2: idea that dopamine is a pleasure producing chemical or reward 580 00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:58,520 Speaker 2: producing chemical, where instead it might be that people do 581 00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:01,960 Speaker 2: these behaviors that are impulsive because they don't have the 582 00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:05,560 Speaker 2: dopamine that can regulate their impulses and so they have 583 00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:09,600 Speaker 2: less impulse control. We're just still sorting it out, I guess. 584 00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:14,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, should we take our final break here? Yeah, 585 00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:16,400 Speaker 1: all right, we'll take a break and we'll talk about 586 00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:19,080 Speaker 1: Oh boy, it's going to be so much fun social 587 00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:45,440 Speaker 1: media right after this. All right, so we're back, and 588 00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:48,600 Speaker 1: we promise talk of social media because I think everyone 589 00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:54,120 Speaker 1: it's pretty hip to the fact now that notifications and 590 00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:56,520 Speaker 1: the dings and the likes and the loves and the 591 00:34:56,520 --> 00:34:59,680 Speaker 1: hearts and all the things that come to various interacting 592 00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:05,160 Speaker 1: with veryarious social media platforms is so old, dude. I 593 00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:08,279 Speaker 1: know that's great in this case, I love being old. 594 00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:09,120 Speaker 1: I don't want any of it. 595 00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:09,600 Speaker 2: I'm with you. 596 00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:13,360 Speaker 1: But in any case, all of that stuff combines to 597 00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:17,000 Speaker 1: give you a hit of dopamine. And it's specific and 598 00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:19,759 Speaker 1: you know, like, fine, that's great whatever, but it's specifically 599 00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:22,919 Speaker 1: structured and built that way and coded that way so 600 00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:26,799 Speaker 1: that you will become addicted to that social media platform. 601 00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:30,640 Speaker 1: And they have admitted as such. In twenty eighteen. It 602 00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:32,600 Speaker 1: was it was a big news item when they were 603 00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:36,240 Speaker 1: I don't know, it was like congressional testimony or something. 604 00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:39,080 Speaker 1: I can't remember exactly, but there was a VP at 605 00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:43,640 Speaker 1: Facebook who came out and was basically like, hey, this 606 00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:48,920 Speaker 1: is something we did on purpose and it was a 607 00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:51,840 Speaker 1: core foundation. Was the really the quote that kind of 608 00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:56,319 Speaker 1: stuck out with how people behave using our platform, like 609 00:35:56,680 --> 00:35:59,759 Speaker 1: it was a part of the core strategy to get 610 00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:02,120 Speaker 1: p people to come back again and again and again. 611 00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:05,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, and that strategy was based on This was a 612 00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:10,239 Speaker 2: Chamath Polyhapedia who was a VP of User Development at Facebook, 613 00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:13,080 Speaker 2: and they said that this was based on short term 614 00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:17,000 Speaker 2: dopamine driven feedback loops. And you know, this is all 615 00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:19,520 Speaker 2: old news to us now. I mean this was six 616 00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:22,400 Speaker 2: years ago. Think about how much our understanding of what 617 00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:24,799 Speaker 2: social media does to us. But in twenty eighteen, that 618 00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:29,399 Speaker 2: was a groundbreaking admission. But it's true, and I mean 619 00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:34,440 Speaker 2: that's essentially how social media works. Like you get the 620 00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:38,880 Speaker 2: app and you start to realize that if that little 621 00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:41,040 Speaker 2: badge number comes up and says, hey, you have like 622 00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:43,520 Speaker 2: two notifications, you go into it, you're going to get 623 00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:46,400 Speaker 2: some sort of reward of some sort. You're going to, 624 00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:48,440 Speaker 2: like you said, get a ding or a like or 625 00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:51,400 Speaker 2: a heart or something like that, and that is a 626 00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:57,080 Speaker 2: reward to you. And so, based on the mesolimbic theory 627 00:36:57,080 --> 00:37:01,319 Speaker 2: of dopemine, we get it. Dopamine hit and so we 628 00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:05,200 Speaker 2: learned to come back. And apparently also randomness has a 629 00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:08,080 Speaker 2: lot to do with it, because the as we start 630 00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:10,440 Speaker 2: to be able to predict when we'll get a reward, 631 00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:15,600 Speaker 2: that dopamine stops being a part of that whole experience. 632 00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:17,920 Speaker 2: So if it can be done randomly, we don't know 633 00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:20,239 Speaker 2: when we're going to get a reward. It has a 634 00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:24,640 Speaker 2: maximum effect of releasing dopamine and thus teaching us to 635 00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:27,200 Speaker 2: go back to social media over and over and over again. 636 00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:33,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, totally. There's also this psychiatrist name doctor Cameron s 637 00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:38,439 Speaker 1: ep Ah. I guess Sepa is how you said that? 638 00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:41,359 Speaker 2: Sepa or Sepa okay. 639 00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:45,480 Speaker 1: One of those three who came out and said, all right, 640 00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:50,000 Speaker 1: there's this term that I'm going to float out there, 641 00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:55,279 Speaker 1: and it's called a dopamine fast. And the idea when 642 00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:59,239 Speaker 1: that was floated was people heard that and they said, oh, well, 643 00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:02,640 Speaker 1: dopamine just means just it's just to catch all term 644 00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:08,560 Speaker 1: basically for any sort of addictive behavior like reinforcement. And 645 00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:11,120 Speaker 1: you can go on a dopamine fast and like you know, 646 00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:14,799 Speaker 1: put that, put that social media app down for a 647 00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:17,799 Speaker 1: couple of weeks, and when you come back, it's just 648 00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:19,600 Speaker 1: gonna like your brain's gonna have a little rest from 649 00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:24,279 Speaker 1: that thing and you're gonna feel amazing about how much 650 00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:26,360 Speaker 1: you love it when you come back. And that's not 651 00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:30,120 Speaker 1: at all what doctor Cameron was talking about or meant. 652 00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:37,080 Speaker 2: No, huh, Doctor doctor Sipa Seppa was basically saying like 653 00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:40,440 Speaker 2: like he really misused dopamine fast and even said to 654 00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:42,239 Speaker 2: The New York Times like, I didn't mean it like that. 655 00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:44,320 Speaker 2: Don't don't take it like that. I don't mean it literally. 656 00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:47,239 Speaker 2: Everybody said, too late, we're gonna take it literally. And 657 00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:50,399 Speaker 2: so there was this this movement I think people still 658 00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:54,680 Speaker 2: do it, of self denial of everything, from like people 659 00:38:54,760 --> 00:39:00,279 Speaker 2: stopped interacting with other people, people stopped eating food they 660 00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:04,440 Speaker 2: found pleasurable, they stopped talking if they didn't need to 661 00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:09,440 Speaker 2: anything that could conceivably give you a release of dopamine, 662 00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:13,239 Speaker 2: and the whole their premise was that if they did that, 663 00:39:13,360 --> 00:39:16,720 Speaker 2: it would be like going and drying out on heroin 664 00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:20,840 Speaker 2: or cocaine, so that when you come back, that first 665 00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:25,520 Speaker 2: experience again with heroin or cocaine is that much more 666 00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:30,000 Speaker 2: amazing because you've kind of replenished your endocannabinoids and opioids 667 00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:32,480 Speaker 2: and all that stuff. Dopamine does not work like that. 668 00:39:32,840 --> 00:39:37,879 Speaker 2: If you stop flooding your brain with dopamine, it doesn't replenish, 669 00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:40,360 Speaker 2: it doesn't need to replenish. That's not how it works. 670 00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:43,680 Speaker 2: But that's what people were doing. They just completely misinterpreted it, 671 00:39:43,719 --> 00:39:46,520 Speaker 2: and it was based on faulty science and doctor Sipa 672 00:39:46,719 --> 00:39:49,000 Speaker 2: essentially using the wrong term. 673 00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:52,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think the idea that he was talking about, 674 00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:57,680 Speaker 1: was Hey, put that stuff down and go do other 675 00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:01,480 Speaker 1: things that you find pleasure in right live in the world, 676 00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:04,440 Speaker 1: or go out in nature, or you know, kind of 677 00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:07,879 Speaker 1: get a hold of your life again so you don't 678 00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:10,600 Speaker 1: feel like you're, you know, tied to this social media 679 00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:11,839 Speaker 1: app for your happiness. 680 00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:15,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, our moms used to call it going to play 681 00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:18,560 Speaker 2: outside for a while or summer, I think is another 682 00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:21,120 Speaker 2: term it used to be called. But instead this guy 683 00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:24,040 Speaker 2: called it a dopamine fast, and people really took a 684 00:40:24,120 --> 00:40:28,640 Speaker 2: left turn with it. So he identified six compulsive behaviors 685 00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:31,640 Speaker 2: or categories that he was saying, you could really, you 686 00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:34,600 Speaker 2: could really do a good for yourself by taking a 687 00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:40,840 Speaker 2: dopamine fast or a break from emotional eating, excessive internet 688 00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:46,360 Speaker 2: usage and gaming, gambling and shopping, porn and masturbation, thrill 689 00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:49,600 Speaker 2: and novelty seeking, which I took to mean taking a 690 00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:54,480 Speaker 2: break from thrill, kill, murder spreeze, and recreational drugs. But 691 00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:57,600 Speaker 2: he also said, you know, anything that you feel like 692 00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:00,560 Speaker 2: has got a hold on your life, if you just 693 00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:03,520 Speaker 2: stop and step away from it, it will have less 694 00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:06,040 Speaker 2: a whole of your life. So TV would definitely be 695 00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:08,440 Speaker 2: in there probably for a lot of people but if 696 00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:10,600 Speaker 2: you step back and look at what this guy's talking about, 697 00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:13,200 Speaker 2: it's the most basic thing that people have been doing 698 00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:18,759 Speaker 2: for eons, and yet just by slapping dopamine fast on it, 699 00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:24,200 Speaker 2: it became sticky and buzzy and brainstormy or java stormy 700 00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:28,760 Speaker 2: and like super corporate, and people just really got into 701 00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:32,600 Speaker 2: it and started thinking, like, you know, if I fast 702 00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:35,400 Speaker 2: from dopamine when I come back, I'm gonna have so 703 00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:39,080 Speaker 2: much dopamine that I'm going to be the most motivated, focused, 704 00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:45,239 Speaker 2: greatest ux PM of all time. Yeah, and that's just 705 00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:46,759 Speaker 2: not how it works, unfortunately. 706 00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:47,000 Speaker 1: No. 707 00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:50,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess that's a weird way to end this 708 00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:51,839 Speaker 2: whole thing, but that's how it ends. 709 00:41:51,920 --> 00:41:54,440 Speaker 1: Huh Yeah, I mean that's our current understanding. 710 00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:57,799 Speaker 2: Yeah. I feel like this is one we would be 711 00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:00,480 Speaker 2: able to do five years from now, is to kind 712 00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:03,120 Speaker 2: of revisit what do you think? Nah? 713 00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:05,960 Speaker 1: Okay, I mean we've never done that. 714 00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:09,960 Speaker 2: That's dopamine as we understand it in twenty twenty four, everybody. 715 00:42:10,040 --> 00:42:10,480 Speaker 1: That's right. 716 00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:13,040 Speaker 2: If you want to know more about dopamine, go out 717 00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:15,759 Speaker 2: and read about it, but be very specific and selective 718 00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:18,799 Speaker 2: of who you go read. There are some popular people 719 00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:21,640 Speaker 2: who know what they're talking about out there, but there's 720 00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:23,600 Speaker 2: plenty that don't. So I guess if you run across 721 00:42:23,640 --> 00:42:26,279 Speaker 2: somebody who refers to dopamine as a pleasure chemical or 722 00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:28,880 Speaker 2: something like that, just turn around and walk away and 723 00:42:28,880 --> 00:42:30,959 Speaker 2: go find somebody else. How about that, Chuck. 724 00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:32,759 Speaker 1: That sounds good, Chuck. 725 00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:35,080 Speaker 2: So that sounds good everybody, and that means it's time 726 00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:35,879 Speaker 2: for listener mail. 727 00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:40,040 Speaker 1: I'm going to call this from a conductor. We heard 728 00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:42,960 Speaker 1: from quite a few conductors so far, and that's just 729 00:42:43,040 --> 00:42:46,640 Speaker 1: on day one after release. So it's pretty great to 730 00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:48,640 Speaker 1: know that there are people out there that know about 731 00:42:48,640 --> 00:42:49,839 Speaker 1: this stuff better than we do. 732 00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:51,040 Speaker 2: That's amazing. 733 00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:53,680 Speaker 1: Hey, guys, thank you so much for the episode about conductors. 734 00:42:53,680 --> 00:42:55,920 Speaker 1: I squealed with joy when I saw it in my 735 00:42:55,960 --> 00:42:58,399 Speaker 1: feed as they started my hour long commute. I teach 736 00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:01,759 Speaker 1: high school orchestra and I'm an orchid stroll orchestral excuse me, 737 00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:06,080 Speaker 1: a musician with former aspirations of becoming a professional conductor. 738 00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:09,680 Speaker 1: So it's fun to hear an outsider's perspective. You're wondering 739 00:43:09,680 --> 00:43:12,640 Speaker 1: what exactly is on each musician's stand during a performance. 740 00:43:13,239 --> 00:43:15,320 Speaker 1: I love Chuck's analogy of it being like an actors 741 00:43:15,360 --> 00:43:18,759 Speaker 1: script with only their lines, and that's pretty close. But 742 00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:22,080 Speaker 1: sometimes there are small annotations of what to listen for 743 00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:25,439 Speaker 1: from other sections of the orchestra, particularly after a long 744 00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:29,120 Speaker 1: section of inactive playing or rests, to help figure out 745 00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:32,840 Speaker 1: where you are in the music. That's the part. Remember, 746 00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:35,480 Speaker 1: I just couldn't believe there'd be like nothing to cue you, 747 00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:40,520 Speaker 1: and I saw other stuff where there were sometimes numeric notations, 748 00:43:40,560 --> 00:43:44,440 Speaker 1: and other conductors that there were long bars and things 749 00:43:44,480 --> 00:43:48,160 Speaker 1: that you would pay attention to. Back to the email, though, 750 00:43:48,560 --> 00:43:50,719 Speaker 1: this is another key job of the conductor which you 751 00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:53,760 Speaker 1: didn't touch on as much as they have the entire score. 752 00:43:54,040 --> 00:43:59,440 Speaker 1: They often give entrance cues to specific instrumentalists or sections. Additionally, 753 00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:03,239 Speaker 1: there are usually rehearsal markers that delineate the beginnings of 754 00:44:03,280 --> 00:44:06,680 Speaker 1: phrases or larger sections. This not only makes rehearsing easier, 755 00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:10,000 Speaker 1: but also gives greater structure and scaffolding to the player. 756 00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:13,080 Speaker 1: It's similar to punctuation or paragraph structure and a novel. 757 00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:17,359 Speaker 1: Experienced musicians can often almost more or less feel their 758 00:44:17,480 --> 00:44:20,880 Speaker 1: entrances based on their contextual knowledge of the piece and 759 00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:24,240 Speaker 1: the music phrasing. There's an old adage that you spend 760 00:44:24,239 --> 00:44:27,760 Speaker 1: your time practicing at home to learn your part. Rehearsal 761 00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:29,799 Speaker 1: time is spent learning everyone else's. 762 00:44:30,040 --> 00:44:31,680 Speaker 2: Oh that's cool, it's pretty good. 763 00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:35,319 Speaker 1: The conductor's facilitator of this process. You hit the nail 764 00:44:35,360 --> 00:44:38,440 Speaker 1: on the head, guys, the interpreter of the score. That 765 00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:41,200 Speaker 1: is from Brittany Man Chuck. 766 00:44:41,280 --> 00:44:41,759 Speaker 2: We did it. 767 00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:46,319 Speaker 1: Yeah, we got I think four or five conductors all 768 00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:48,600 Speaker 1: wrote in and said like, we did a pretty darn 769 00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:50,160 Speaker 1: good job on it. So that feels great. 770 00:44:50,360 --> 00:44:51,440 Speaker 2: Tell me they said bravo. 771 00:44:52,640 --> 00:44:53,480 Speaker 1: I didn't see a Bravo. 772 00:44:53,840 --> 00:44:56,600 Speaker 2: Sorry, I mean we'll get one someday. Yeah, that's pretty goot. 773 00:44:56,600 --> 00:44:59,560 Speaker 2: Who is that from Brittany? Yeah, Brittany, thanks a lot, Brittany, 774 00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:02,880 Speaker 2: ciate that. And to all the conductors who wrote in, 775 00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:06,319 Speaker 2: Thank you to you all. And if you want to 776 00:45:06,320 --> 00:45:08,440 Speaker 2: be like all the conductors who wrote in like Brittany, 777 00:45:08,760 --> 00:45:11,000 Speaker 2: you can send us an email to send it off 778 00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:16,680 Speaker 2: to stuff podcast at iHeartRadio dot com. You Know. 779 00:45:17,120 --> 00:45:20,000 Speaker 1: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For 780 00:45:20,120 --> 00:45:24,279 Speaker 1: more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 781 00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:26,240 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.