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Speaker 1: Body Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan. When I was a kid,

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Speaker 1: you could be up late at night sometimes watching TV,

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Speaker 1: and they've always got these public service announcements that come on.

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Speaker 1: You know, I guess it's these stations they have to

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Speaker 1: do their good deeds and they'll tell you about things

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Speaker 1: you're not supposed to do. And even back then they

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Speaker 1: would have don't drink and don't drive stuff, they'd have

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Speaker 1: stuff about drugs. But you know, one of the most

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Speaker 1: chilling commercials I remember, and maybe some of y'all remember too,

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Speaker 1: from and it would have been when I was a

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Speaker 1: little kid man back in the back in the sixties.

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Speaker 1: They used to have this old, abandoned lot in somewhere

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Speaker 1: in New York and they would show kids playing around

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Speaker 1: all of this garbage and trash, and there was a

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Speaker 1: refrigerator there in the middle of that lot, and they

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Speaker 1: would have superimposed the word don't over it, and the

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Speaker 1: idea was and you could hear the kids were saying, here,

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Speaker 1: I come ready or not and they were playing hide

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Speaker 1: and seek. And one of the purposes for this commercial

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Speaker 1: was to warn people about the dangers of crawling inside

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Speaker 1: of a refrigerator and shutting the door behind them, particularly children,

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Speaker 1: and that always just kind of shook me to my core. Today,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna talk about a case that's not in New York.

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Speaker 1: It's actually in LA in a very upper scale condominium

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Speaker 1: apartment complex in downtown LA involving a beautiful woman who

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Speaker 1: herself is actually found inside of a refrigerator dead. I'm

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Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body bags. Old refrigerators

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Speaker 1: they used to lock from the outside. They had that

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Speaker 1: handle that would actually engage in exterior lock, and once

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Speaker 1: you close that thing behind you, there was no getting

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Speaker 1: out of this thing.

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Speaker 2: We're talking about a thirty one year old model, Melissa Mooney,

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Speaker 2: who her family hadn't talked to her in a week.

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Speaker 3: They called the police.

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Speaker 2: That would you do a welfare check, Go check on

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Speaker 2: my beautiful daughter.

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Speaker 3: That was what her mom said, and they did.

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Speaker 2: And I can't imagine what was going through their head

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Speaker 2: when they opened the door to this place and look

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Speaker 2: around and in the refrigerator is a thirty one year

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Speaker 2: old model that has been bound, gagged, stuffed in there,

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Speaker 2: and there's blood beneath her. Whatever happened was so violent

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Speaker 2: and so evil. Do you think she was alive? When

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Speaker 2: they put her in there.

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Speaker 1: Joe, I don't know. That's one of the big mysteries here.

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Speaker 1: Because I got to be honest with you, Dave, this

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Speaker 1: case really caught my attention. And first off, it's super

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Speaker 1: bizarre because you're talking about a grown woman being stuffed

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Speaker 1: into a refrigerator. And secondly, and probably most importantly as

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Speaker 1: far as what attracted me to want to discuss this

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Speaker 1: was the fact that they're not releasing a lot of information.

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Speaker 2: But we know is all we know, and the family

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Speaker 2: doesn't know a whole lot either. Actually, the family is

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Speaker 2: sharing more information than the police are.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and many times no, it's not and that

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Speaker 1: some of the stuff is secondary okay, uh, And I'll

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Speaker 1: tell you from my perspective, when families come in to

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Speaker 1: the medical examiner's office, I'm not saying that what we're

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Speaker 1: going to say to the family is dictated by the police. Okay. However,

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Speaker 1: the police are working this case as well they should

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Speaker 1: be as a homicide, So if you're inside the investigative bubble,

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Speaker 1: you're not going to allow a lot of information to

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Speaker 1: go out. So where else does the family go and

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Speaker 1: get info? Well, many times that information comes about as

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Speaker 1: a result of the family engaging with the mortuary. And

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Speaker 1: that's something because you know, once once the body is

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Speaker 1: released from the corner slash medical examiner, dependent upon where

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Speaker 1: you live and what you have there, and it goes

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Speaker 1: into the hands of the mortuary service. You're paying them.

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Speaker 1: They're working for you as a family. Uh. You know,

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Speaker 1: they're going to tell you things like, this is what

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Speaker 1: we have as far as options to have a viewing,

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Speaker 1: and the kind of casket you can purchase, and all

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Speaker 1: these sorts of things. But they also get into more

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Speaker 1: intimate details when the family begins to ask what does

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Speaker 1: she look like? And then they also will ask the

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Speaker 1: big question, we want to see her? And many times

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Speaker 1: funeral directors will say, look, we can let you see

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Speaker 1: the body, but we would strongly, strongly urge you to

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Speaker 1: not do this. Did something like this kind of occur

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Speaker 1: with this case, Dave.

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Speaker 2: I think it did, Joe, based on I've told you

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Speaker 2: this before. In my early days of radio, Yeah, because

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Speaker 2: we didn't make much money, I did work for a

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Speaker 2: funeral hut right. I've had the opportunity to go to

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Speaker 2: scenes and as a person, not as a medical person

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Speaker 2: or as a law enforcement person, as a radio guy

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Speaker 2: doing a second job to pay my rent, right, And

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Speaker 2: so I did see things that I didn't need to see,

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Speaker 2: and I did. I did tell a family one time

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Speaker 2: when their dad had fallen down the stairs.

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Speaker 3: He really did.

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Speaker 2: It was one of those deaths where he fell on

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Speaker 2: the stairs and broke his neck. Yeah, but he had

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Speaker 2: been damaged on the way down because his head hit

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Speaker 2: like the stair post and it was messed up.

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Speaker 3: And I did know that.

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Speaker 2: I knew their children, and they were asking for information.

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Speaker 2: And I shouldn't have said anything. I should have said,

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Speaker 2: talk to my boss, talked to the police, anybody, don't

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Speaker 2: ask me. I should have said nothing, but I did.

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Speaker 2: I said, you don't want to see him. And it's

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Speaker 2: because I saw him at the death scene. I didn't

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Speaker 2: know what they were capable of doing, of fixing him

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Speaker 2: up to make him look presentable for the funeral, And

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Speaker 2: so all I did was plant a really horrible thought

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Speaker 2: in their mind about their dad and their husband, when

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Speaker 2: in fact they were able to do an open casket.

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Speaker 2: He looked fine. But I ruined that based on what

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Speaker 2: I said.

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Speaker 1: Well, hey, look, you don't don't feel like the lone ranger.

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Speaker 1: I've made the same mistake as as a quote unquote

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Speaker 1: professional death investigator, actually made the mistake of telling a

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Speaker 1: woman one night, an elderly mother actually who was in Virginia.

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Speaker 1: I'd had the authorities go out I worked the case

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Speaker 1: of her son, had the authorities go out to her

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Speaker 1: home to notify her, and actually told the police to

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Speaker 1: have her call me. And when she called me, I

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Speaker 1: made the mistake of telling this elderly mother that her

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Speaker 1: son had died of autoerotica asphixia. Oh no, yeah, I know.

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Speaker 1: And it's like, listen, you need to learn to keep

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Speaker 1: your mouth shut, because there's only certain amounts of information

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Speaker 1: that families can digest at any one time, and families

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Speaker 1: that receive bad information they become and I'm not being insulting,

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Speaker 1: I mean, they're so damaged by the fact that they're

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Speaker 1: in the state of shock. It's almost like feeding a

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Speaker 1: baby a steak. Yeah, it's food, and the baby needs nourishment,

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Speaker 1: but you don't feed steak to babies, and so they're

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Speaker 1: not capable of digesting this and all that sort of thing.

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Speaker 1: Of course, by me saying that to her, the next

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Speaker 1: thing is it's her son. She says, my word, what

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Speaker 1: in the world is that, and I had no business

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Speaker 1: saying that. But I think with this family, one of

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Speaker 1: the things that they have, at least in their mind

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Speaker 1: confirmed is that this poor young lady was greatly traumatized.

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Speaker 1: Her body was and they what was it that they

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Speaker 1: were told about her body relative to broken bones or something.

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Speaker 2: Her sister said this that both of her ankles were broken,

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Speaker 2: And I'm thinking, Joe, how does that happen in this

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Speaker 2: particular case with a thirty one year old woman who's

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Speaker 2: in decent shape and is fighting. But that's what sticks

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Speaker 2: out to I'm just wondering, does that happen post before

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Speaker 2: she dies?

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Speaker 3: It happened, Afric? Can you tell if it was? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Actually it's an excellent question. And I think the

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Speaker 1: fact that they're saying that they were broken ankles, that's

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Speaker 1: very specific, isn't it, Dave. You know, when you think

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Speaker 1: about I don't know, the lack of a better term,

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Speaker 1: anatomical specificity, you know you're talking about bilateral, which means

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Speaker 1: both ankles were broken. If that is what the family

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Speaker 1: heard and if that is what they were told. But

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Speaker 1: let's just go with that just for a second and

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Speaker 1: think about the size. I want everybody at home when

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Speaker 1: you get a chance, going to look at your refrigerator,

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Speaker 1: you know, whatever the configuration is.

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Speaker 3: Now.

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Speaker 1: Look, I know that some of you guys have got big,

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Speaker 1: fancy refrigerators. You know, you've got the the whatever those

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Speaker 1: things are called, the vulcan whatever they are, and they

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Speaker 1: open up and it's a whole Look. I ain't got

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Speaker 1: one of those. All I know is that is that

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Speaker 1: my refrigerator is just big enough for Kim and I to,

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Speaker 1: you know, to put what we have to put in there.

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Speaker 1: And the thought that I could actually put a full

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Speaker 1: grown woman into a refrigerator and not compromise her body

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Speaker 1: in some way, I think you really hit the nail

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Speaker 1: on the head here, Dave, because if in fact she's

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Speaker 1: got broken bones, one of the big things that the

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Speaker 1: medical legal community is going to have to answer for

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Speaker 1: the police is, well, if you've got bilateral fractured ankles,

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Speaker 1: and that's what the sister has said, not us, that's

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Speaker 1: what the sister has said. You have to ask yourself

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Speaker 1: the question, well, is this something that was done in life?

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Speaker 1: And if it was done in life, you're going to

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Speaker 1: see echymosis or bruising swelling. If it's done after death,

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Speaker 1: it'll be absent. Now you'll see the tearing of tissue,

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Speaker 1: but you're not going to have in dwelling swelling. You're

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Speaker 1: not going to have focal areas of hemorrhage. There's not

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Speaker 1: going to be dark bruising that sort of thing. And

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Speaker 1: what's odd is that most of the time when you

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Speaker 1: see fractured bilateral ankles, you know, when I generally saw

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Speaker 1: those days in my career, motor vehicle accident. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you're absolutely right, car accidents, pedestrian instruck by vehicle, and

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Speaker 1: interestingly enough people that die in plane crashes. It's like

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Speaker 1: that's one of the common features that you will see

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Speaker 1: our bilateral fractured ankles and so and it's just the

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Speaker 1: impact of that. It's a very difficult area to fracture.

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Speaker 1: So I'm thinking, whoever has placed this poor young woman's

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Speaker 1: beaten and broken body into this refrigerator really had to

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Speaker 1: manipulate her, manipulate her remains in total, and here's one

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Speaker 1: more thing, they went to great links to bind her.

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Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, from what I'm hearing, it

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Speaker 1: sounds as though she was probably hog died. A couple

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Speaker 1: of months back, my wife and I we were out

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Speaker 1: in l a and we we took a train trip

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Speaker 1: up to Santa Barbara. I was a producer on a

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Speaker 1: movie and we went to the Santa Barbara Film Festival.

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Speaker 1: I've never done this before. I took the amtrak from

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Speaker 1: LA and we took it up to Santa Barbara and

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Speaker 1: oh my gosh, it was some of the most beautiful

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Speaker 1: countryside I've ever seen in my life. But the one thing,

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Speaker 1: and that that's kind of the way LA is. You

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Speaker 1: look around and when you're kind of a moving spot

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Speaker 1: like that and you're not having a fight traffic yourself,

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Speaker 1: you can appreciate. You see the snow capped mountains off

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Speaker 1: in the distance, We've got the ocean that's right next

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Speaker 1: to us. But then there's that underlying seedy side to

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Speaker 1: it too. Everybody thinks that it's gorgeous, and then you

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Speaker 1: get out there and you're around the train tracks and

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Speaker 1: it's dirty. There's graffiti everywhere, and you're thinking, Wow, how

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Speaker 1: could a place be so diametrically opposing, you know when

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Speaker 1: you look at it, and that kind of sums up.

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Speaker 1: That kind of sums it up for me.

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Speaker 3: It does.

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Speaker 2: We all have a vision of LA and southern California

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Speaker 2: and Oftentimes the stories that we cover deal with the

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Speaker 2: bad part of town, not the case here. This particular

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Speaker 2: place that we're talking about where Melissa Mooney lived. We're

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Speaker 2: talking about an upscale apartment building that has several LA

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Speaker 2: based models living in, not just her. She actually had

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Speaker 2: just moved into that apartment.

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Speaker 3: She had a few weeks.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, she'd been out in Miami and she came back

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Speaker 2: and she was still moving stuff from her mom's house

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Speaker 2: into her apartment. And that's why it meant so much

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Speaker 2: to them. That's why the timing of this, because the

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Speaker 2: last time Melissa was seen coming into the building on

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Speaker 2: security camera was six days before her body was found,

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Speaker 2: and they have her walking in on surveillance film. Now

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Speaker 2: here's the other part of this. There was no forced

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Speaker 2: entry into her apartment. They had the police had gone

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Speaker 2: out there to make one call and you mentioned this

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Speaker 2: to me, and I'm so glad you did. They knocked

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Speaker 2: on the door, didn't get anything, and so they left

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Speaker 2: a card. They didn't have a key to get in.

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Speaker 2: Police needed to have the building manager actually let them

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Speaker 2: into her apartment. The picture we got from police is

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Speaker 2: they walked in, they found her body, and wedged into

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Speaker 2: the refrigerator, and there was blood underneath her body, and

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Speaker 2: you could tell she'd been in a bad fight. What

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Speaker 2: we're getting from the family is a little bit different,

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Speaker 2: and it is that her sister said that when they

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Speaker 2: arrived that the police made them wait downstairs, would not

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Speaker 2: let them into the apartment, and the apartment was freezing cold,

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Speaker 2: the air had been turned down, and that it had

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Speaker 2: been flooded. Okay, Mooney's apartment flooded and the air conditioning blasting.

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Speaker 2: The family went to her apartment a few days after

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Speaker 2: they had they called the police the first time. They

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Speaker 2: were told by the building managers they weren't allowed in.

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Speaker 2: They called the police, who discovered Mooney's apartment flooded and

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Speaker 2: the air conditioning blasting. They made the family wait downstairs

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Speaker 2: for hours until the police told them they did find

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Speaker 2: a body, but they can't identify who it is. So, Joe,

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Speaker 2: what are we dealing with? An air Why is the.

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Speaker 3: Air conditioner turned way down?

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Speaker 2: Why is there a flood And is it really that

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Speaker 2: possible that a beating could make some body unrecognizable even

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Speaker 2: when you're the police and you know who is supposed

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Speaker 2: to occupy this.

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Speaker 1: Dwelling, Yeah, you can't make the assumption just because you

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Speaker 1: open up the refrigerator that it's going to be the

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Speaker 1: person that's actually domicile there. Because look, and this has happened,

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Speaker 1: this is documented. There are documented cases this where you'll

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Speaker 1: have somebody that is beaten to a pulp and their

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Speaker 1: body is found in one specific location, and they are

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Speaker 1: misidentified based upon the geographic location which they are found,

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Speaker 1: primarily a domicile. So it's a dangerous road to go down.

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Speaker 1: And the nature of this death. I want to back

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Speaker 1: up just for a second, and you know, we're talking

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Speaker 1: about the fractured ankles a little while ago, and I

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Speaker 1: was thinking, well, how much time did the perpetrator obviously

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Speaker 1: sometime spend in this apartment with her, you know, either

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Speaker 1: prior to death or obviously after death. How much effort

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Speaker 1: did it take to get her into this refrigerator, Because

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Speaker 1: you know, there are those those cases where that you know,

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Speaker 1: many of us have heard heard about in the past

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Speaker 1: where people went to a went to a funeral home

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Speaker 1: and perhaps the individual that was going to go into

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Speaker 1: the casket and they were too tall for the casket

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Speaker 1: limbs had been broken. You know, that has happened in

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Speaker 1: the past. In order to fit them in. Is that

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Speaker 1: what happened here?

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Speaker 3: Was it?

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Speaker 1: They were just trying to jam her body, to conceal

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Speaker 1: her body into this environment so that no one would

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Speaker 1: be any of the wiser. Now, they had to assume

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Speaker 1: that someone is going to find her eventually. But look,

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Speaker 1: the longer the perpetrator can delay that initial contact with

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Speaker 1: the body where the body is discovered, the higher the

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Speaker 1: opportunity is or probability is that the perpetrator can get

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Speaker 1: further and further and further away. So, you know, you

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Speaker 1: talked about how she's in a refrigerated space. And here's

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Speaker 1: one other thing. The family or when the police walked in,

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Speaker 1: they saw items on the table that would and they

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Speaker 1: didn't say what they were adjacent to the refrigerator that

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Speaker 1: are commonly associated with needing to be refrigerated, as if

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Speaker 1: the refrigerator been cleaned out, these items put on the

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Speaker 1: desk or on the table, and then she's found in there,

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Speaker 1: and then you've already got her in a refrigerated space.

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Speaker 1: Why are you going to take the temperature of her

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Speaker 1: apartment and turn it all the way down? Was it's

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Speaker 1: almost like a fail safe. Now as for the origin

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Speaker 1: of the water, why would there be flooding going on

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Speaker 1: in here. The only thing I can think of is

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Speaker 1: perhaps perhaps there was some effort to clean up and

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Speaker 1: they left water running, and the thought that you know,

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Speaker 1: and this is actually true, water destroys a lot of

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Speaker 1: things from an evidentiary standpoint, wasn't an attempt to go

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Speaker 1: back And if there was any kind of dynamic blood

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Speaker 1: deposition on any of the surfaces, maybe they were just

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Speaker 1: rolling a dice to see if they could eradicate eradicate

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Speaker 1: those bits of evidence with water. And so there's more.

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Speaker 1: There's more to this than meets the eye. I think

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Speaker 1: there's some thought that went into this, and it's kind

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Speaker 1: of the way the body was handled is kind of disorganized,

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Speaker 1: but there was some thought that went into this, and

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Speaker 1: I think a lot of anger.

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Speaker 2: Dave Well according to a lot of this information coming

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Speaker 2: from the family because the police are being quiet. But

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Speaker 2: we do know that Melisa Mooney had facetimed their cousin

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Speaker 2: on September the sixth, that she went out with friends

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Speaker 2: that night to a place in Santa Monica. You know,

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Speaker 2: I had a couple of drinks and what have you,

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Speaker 2: and then they all went back to her apartment hung

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Speaker 2: out there till three or four in the morning. That

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Speaker 2: was the last time anybody talked to Melissa Mooney is

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Speaker 2: about three or four in the morning. Apparently they have

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Speaker 2: these people on surveillance VideA leaving. But the family was

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Speaker 2: getting text messages from her phone and they were kind

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Speaker 2: of vague. They weren't all exactly as they were used

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Speaker 2: to getting from her, and that's when they the family

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Speaker 2: started reaching out to We were not getting her on

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Speaker 2: the phone. We haven't seen her. We need to figure

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Speaker 2: out what's going on. And her phone and laptop had

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Speaker 2: been stolen. A designer purse from her apartment was also gone.

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Speaker 2: This is all according to her sister. Her sister said,

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Speaker 2: whoever killed her most likely knew her phone pass code.

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Speaker 2: Now you're talking about somebody that actually knew her well

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Speaker 2: enough to know the passcode and was sending her family

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Speaker 2: vague text messages. She didn't elaborate on the text messages.

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Speaker 2: But they also found out that someone had put her

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Speaker 2: cell phone. Mooney's cell phone was up for sale for

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Speaker 2: one hundred dollars. That's pretty cheap for a cell phone.

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Speaker 2: I'm assuming it's a good one. But this is coming

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Speaker 2: from the family. Now we don't have this from the police,

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Speaker 2: So I'm pretty careful in talking about this because you

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Speaker 2: don't know. I mean, this is what the family is

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Speaker 2: telling us. And it makes sense because otherwise, what would

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Speaker 2: have what would have been the reason for asking the

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Speaker 2: police to go check on her. So the police find

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Speaker 2: the air conditioning crank way down. They know that, and

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Speaker 2: it's by the way, that was on the twelfth, on

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Speaker 2: September twelfth, they know the last time she was seen

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Speaker 2: on it coming into the building was on September the sixth,

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Speaker 2: So if she was killed that night the next day,

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Speaker 2: there's a six day window here where they had to

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Speaker 2: prevent the body from alerting the whole building that there

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Speaker 2: was somebody dead in here. So that kind of goes

359
00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:38,440
Speaker 2: back to the air conditioning being turned down. And then now,

360
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Speaker 2: wait a minute, they took stuff out of their refrigerator

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Speaker 2: to put her body in there, so they've killed her

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Speaker 2: and the autopsy. I got to ask you about this, Joe.

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Speaker 2: If they killed her by beating, that's a pretty violent,

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Speaker 2: horrible thing to beat somebody to death. But the autopsy report, Joe,

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Speaker 2: you're gonna have to break this down. The autopsy report,

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Speaker 2: it tells us that she died of homice violence. But

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Speaker 2: how is it possible to know it was homicidal violence?

368
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Speaker 2: But there's no clear cause of death. That's the actual

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Speaker 2: autopsy report. No clear cause of death. How is that possible?

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Speaker 1: The term homicidal violence is very vague when you're trying

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Speaker 1: to assess exactly what the specific cause of death is.

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Speaker 1: When you couple the fact that she's gotten multiple trauma

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Speaker 1: that they discovered to her body about her head and

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Speaker 1: her neck, bruises, abrasions, strikes to the head, there's even

375
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Speaker 1: a laceration. You think about this, there's no defensive injuries.

376
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Speaker 1: You really wonder was this a case of oxygen deprivation.

377
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Speaker 1: That's something that perhaps they could assess at autopsy. But

378
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Speaker 1: I do know this. There was one other thing that

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Speaker 1: they found at autopsy. Melissa Mooney was eight weeks pregnant.

380
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Speaker 1: I didn't mean to drop that on you, like one

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Speaker 1: hundred pound anvil, but yeah, she's poor young lady is pregnant.

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Speaker 1: And of course that goes into you know, what we

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Speaker 1: do in the morgue with having to do the assessment.

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Speaker 1: And I think from an investigative standpoint, Dave, this is

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Speaker 1: a very violent crime that kind of goes without saying,

386
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Speaker 1: So you begin to think as an investigator, what what

387
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Speaker 1: in the world would drive this kind of anger and rage?

388
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Speaker 1: What is it that would motivate someone to take the

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Speaker 1: life of this beautiful thirty one year old woman. What

390
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Speaker 1: would it be? Could it be the fact that she

391
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Speaker 1: is pregnant.

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Speaker 2: It wouldn't be the first time that we had seen

393
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Speaker 2: that eight weeks pregnant. She was pregnant enough that her

394
00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:13,920
Speaker 2: sister was told by Melissa had told her, I'm pregnant.

395
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Speaker 2: All I can think of is Ray Caruth and I

396
00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:19,840
Speaker 2: hate to bring that guy up, but it happened over

397
00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:23,280
Speaker 2: twenty years ago, but his girlfriend was pregnant and he

398
00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:26,399
Speaker 2: actually orchestrated her murder and he did go to prison

399
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Speaker 2: for it.

400
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Speaker 3: She died.

401
00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:29,960
Speaker 2: She was actually able to call nine one one. She

402
00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:31,600
Speaker 2: was shot in the head, but she called nine one one.

403
00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:34,680
Speaker 2: She told exactly what happened. They were able to save

404
00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:38,280
Speaker 2: her baby and he did live, although with some.

405
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Speaker 3: Issues.

406
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Speaker 2: In this particular case, Joe, we have a woman that

407
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Speaker 2: is eight weeks pregnant. Don't know how long she's been

408
00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:49,520
Speaker 2: in there in that refrigerator, beating up the way that

409
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Speaker 2: she was. But right, what would happen at autopsy with

410
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Speaker 2: regard to a baby, you're talking eight weeks. Are they

411
00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:00,240
Speaker 2: going to actually look at that is again to be

412
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Speaker 2: dismissed or what happens when you have somebody like this?

413
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Speaker 1: No, no, no, yeah. With first off, you know at autopsies,

414
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Speaker 1: we you do a full autopsy. It means full autopsy,

415
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Speaker 1: So every organ system in the body, including the reproductive system,

416
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Speaker 1: is going to be examined. And I have personally in

417
00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:23,639
Speaker 1: the Morgue removed fetuses and at all stages of growth.

418
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Speaker 1: And here we're talking about a baby that would have

419
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Speaker 1: been eight weeks gestational age, So you're talking about probably

420
00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:38,560
Speaker 1: about the size of about the size of a kidney

421
00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:41,760
Speaker 1: bean at this point in time. But still you can

422
00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:44,240
Speaker 1: pick up on a lot of the features. There would

423
00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:48,760
Speaker 1: be an assessment because there's standard standard measurements that fall

424
00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:51,399
Speaker 1: in for gestational age. It's kind of how we measure

425
00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:55,639
Speaker 1: this and that's important for the investigation. How many people

426
00:25:56,560 --> 00:26:02,280
Speaker 1: had she told that she was pregnant? Was whoever fathered

427
00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:05,879
Speaker 1: this child? Are they aware that she was pregnant? Was

428
00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:09,879
Speaker 1: she pregnant in Florida? Well, we'd have to think that

429
00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:13,679
Speaker 1: she probably was, because if she's at eight weeks at

430
00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:15,919
Speaker 1: this point in time, and she just has moved to

431
00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:19,119
Speaker 1: La Well, look, I want to know if somebody's followed

432
00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:21,080
Speaker 1: her from Florida at this point in time as an

433
00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:23,800
Speaker 1: investigator to try to assess it, and who's going to

434
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Speaker 1: feel comfortable enough within her little domicile to make these

435
00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:32,760
Speaker 1: kind of moves in here that are so over the

436
00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:36,760
Speaker 1: top and so violent that they had this familiarity, you know,

437
00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:39,480
Speaker 1: And you'd mentioned something key just a little while ago, David,

438
00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:42,399
Speaker 1: that was the fact that somebody had been fiddling with

439
00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:45,160
Speaker 1: her phone, that they were trying to open this thing up.

440
00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:47,560
Speaker 1: I don't know about you. I mean, I can get

441
00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:49,600
Speaker 1: into my wife's phone. She can get into my phone,

442
00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:52,040
Speaker 1: But if you were to hand me your phone, I

443
00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:55,359
Speaker 1: couldn't get into it. You know, I don't have that

444
00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:57,639
Speaker 1: kind of information about you, and I don't want that

445
00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:00,000
Speaker 1: kind of information about you. But what I'm saying is

446
00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:02,960
Speaker 1: that goes to a level of intimacy, now, doesn't it.

447
00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:06,320
Speaker 1: And that would all have to be considered by the

448
00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:07,639
Speaker 1: police in a case.

449
00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:10,399
Speaker 2: Like because they actually sent text messages, so we know

450
00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:12,399
Speaker 2: not only did they get in there, and look, we

451
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:13,400
Speaker 2: don't know what they deleted.

452
00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:14,440
Speaker 3: We don't know what they did.

453
00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:17,320
Speaker 2: We just know that they were trying to extend out

454
00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:19,360
Speaker 2: the time that the family believed she was alive.

455
00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:20,280
Speaker 3: You know, they didn't.

456
00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:22,240
Speaker 2: They wanted to disguise that so they were able to

457
00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:23,760
Speaker 2: send I wish you would tell us what was said

458
00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:26,280
Speaker 2: in those text messages. And by the way, this information

459
00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:28,879
Speaker 2: is coming from her sister. Her sister is saying the

460
00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:33,199
Speaker 2: family received text messages, beg text messages, but enough that

461
00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:36,800
Speaker 2: they were concerned about something going on because this was

462
00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:38,680
Speaker 2: not normal procedure for them.

463
00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:42,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's a critical time for them to in

464
00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:45,080
Speaker 1: sense and just let me kind of frame this out.

465
00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:47,440
Speaker 1: It's it's a critical time for this family because they

466
00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:52,200
Speaker 1: know that Melissa is moving. And I don't know about you.

467
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:55,800
Speaker 1: Every time I've ever moved in my life, it's like

468
00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:59,159
Speaker 1: it generates stomach acid. I can't If I never have

469
00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:00,760
Speaker 1: to move again as long as I live, it will

470
00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:04,720
Speaker 1: suit me just fine. It's a trying time for anybody

471
00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:07,560
Speaker 1: that engages in it. How much more so for a

472
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:12,000
Speaker 1: young lady that's pregnant and she's moving literally literally all

473
00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:14,760
Speaker 1: the way across the country to a new location.

474
00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:17,399
Speaker 2: I don't know if she was living in Miami, Florida

475
00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:19,640
Speaker 2: before she came to LA don't know that she might

476
00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:22,000
Speaker 2: have been out there visiting. I don't know, I have

477
00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:26,040
Speaker 2: because there's so much of this that we don't know,

478
00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:28,040
Speaker 2: and the fact that we're getting a lot of it

479
00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:31,639
Speaker 2: from the family. But what we do know, iron and

480
00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:33,720
Speaker 2: Stone is she had just moved into that building.

481
00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:36,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I know that she did have another apartment

482
00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:40,160
Speaker 1: in the LA area, someplace that she had been domiciled at.

483
00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:43,960
Speaker 1: But this movement is intriguing to me because I'd want

484
00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:48,440
Speaker 1: to know who would be within her life that would

485
00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:53,840
Speaker 1: either have knowledge or have direct knowledge of her life

486
00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:56,960
Speaker 1: to this point. And is there somebody there that someone

487
00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:01,200
Speaker 1: could identify that would have this level violence and dwelling

488
00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:01,840
Speaker 1: within them.

489
00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:04,360
Speaker 2: Well, let me ask you this, Joe, because here's what

490
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:07,200
Speaker 2: we've got. We've got a building that houses a lot

491
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:09,800
Speaker 2: of local LA models, enough that they consider it the

492
00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:13,880
Speaker 2: Models building. We know, and we know that the person

493
00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:17,960
Speaker 2: somebody was using her phone to reach out to family,

494
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:19,840
Speaker 2: So they had to know how to get into her phone.

495
00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:22,680
Speaker 2: They had to know which family members would be expecting

496
00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:25,000
Speaker 2: to hear something from her, not just replying to things.

497
00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:27,680
Speaker 2: Because you've kind of got to know but she was

498
00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:34,040
Speaker 2: beaten so badly. Every part of her body had to toe.

499
00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:37,280
Speaker 2: She was ravaged. She was beaten, right, who's going to

500
00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:40,040
Speaker 2: be quiet? Are you going to hear something?

501
00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:42,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, you would think that, but you know they're saying,

502
00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:46,920
Speaker 1: and what you know, our kind of fallback position relative

503
00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:49,040
Speaker 1: to you know, when we go to assess a scene

504
00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:51,719
Speaker 1: is no signs of fourth century or struggle. And what

505
00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:54,240
Speaker 1: they're saying is that there was not a lot of

506
00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:57,040
Speaker 1: evidence of a struggle there in any way. So who

507
00:29:57,080 --> 00:29:59,920
Speaker 1: would be there that would get the upper hand on

508
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:03,160
Speaker 1: on her to the point where they could subdue her.

509
00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:06,360
Speaker 1: That's where these bindings come in. That I think that

510
00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:11,120
Speaker 1: when they examined examined her because there were a couple

511
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:13,520
Speaker 1: of cords that were used, there were items of clothing

512
00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:16,000
Speaker 1: that were used to restrain her, and to me, it

513
00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:20,120
Speaker 1: sounds like a kind of a traditional hog tying kind

514
00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:23,360
Speaker 1: of event. So if you want to think about her

515
00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:27,480
Speaker 1: hands at the wrist are bound behind her back, they

516
00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:30,840
Speaker 1: are then in turn bound to the ankles. And the

517
00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:33,680
Speaker 1: ankles play key in this, don't they because they're bilaterally

518
00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:38,760
Speaker 1: fractured and she stuffed into this refrigerator in this manner

519
00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:41,160
Speaker 1: and it's an awkward position to be in. I can

520
00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:46,520
Speaker 1: only imagine that. You know, it would not be as

521
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:50,720
Speaker 1: manageable to get a body in that posture as it

522
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:53,600
Speaker 1: would if you had balled her up into more of

523
00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:56,800
Speaker 1: a fetal position where the knees are drawn in and

524
00:30:56,840 --> 00:31:02,320
Speaker 1: you can. But somebody made this decision prior to putting

525
00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:06,120
Speaker 1: her in the refrigerator where she's in this kind of

526
00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:12,200
Speaker 1: you know, affected position where her ankles are behind her,

527
00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:15,880
Speaker 1: they're both bound up and they are in turn tied

528
00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:19,880
Speaker 1: to her wrist where they're anchored. And then she's got

529
00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:24,040
Speaker 1: a gag that's created by a partial piece of clothing

530
00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:27,120
Speaker 1: that she had on that was stuffed into her mouth.

531
00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:31,280
Speaker 1: Now you combine that with the beating, and then on

532
00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:33,360
Speaker 1: top of it, remember what I said in my opening

533
00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:39,160
Speaker 1: about kids getting inside refrigerators and suffocating. Remember the interior,

534
00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:44,080
Speaker 1: the interior space of a refrigerator is not is not

535
00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:49,560
Speaker 1: measured in square feet, it's measured in cubic inches. You've

536
00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:53,480
Speaker 1: only you've got a finite amount of oxygen in here.

537
00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:57,440
Speaker 1: So just imagine, if you will, when they're examining her

538
00:31:57,480 --> 00:31:59,640
Speaker 1: body at autopsy. One of the things they're going to

539
00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:03,000
Speaker 1: be looking for does she have really heavy lungs which

540
00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:06,320
Speaker 1: could be consistent with being in a congestive failure, a

541
00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:09,680
Speaker 1: congestive state that would come about as a result of

542
00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:13,320
Speaker 1: oxygen deprivation. Did she die as a result of oxygen

543
00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:17,959
Speaker 1: deprivation that was subsequent to her beating that he and

544
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:21,040
Speaker 1: I'm saying he he beat her down to the point

545
00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:24,800
Speaker 1: where she's got these horrible injuries to her face, head, neck,

546
00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:29,880
Speaker 1: her upper body, gets her submitted, ties her up, places

547
00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:33,959
Speaker 1: her a refrigerator. Maybe she's still alive, but if she is,

548
00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:37,600
Speaker 1: she's not going to have enough oxygen in there to

549
00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:41,080
Speaker 1: sustain her very long. And she's gasping for air. She's

550
00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:44,160
Speaker 1: breathing shallow already, and on top of it, she's got

551
00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:45,080
Speaker 1: a gag in her mouth.

552
00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:50,440
Speaker 2: So yeah, they will be able to determine if she

553
00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:54,920
Speaker 2: was alive when she was wedged their words, wedged into

554
00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:55,680
Speaker 2: that refrigerator.

555
00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:59,200
Speaker 3: Correct, Yes, either way? Okay, yeah, there would be You

556
00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:00,760
Speaker 3: mentioned the bindings.

557
00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:03,200
Speaker 2: Police said, you know, her body was wedged in the

558
00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:07,960
Speaker 2: refrigerator with blood beneath her body. Yeah, I'm wondering because

559
00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:13,320
Speaker 2: of being tied up, hogtied in that way, and she's

560
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:16,959
Speaker 2: been gagged and she's got it. They actually pointed out

561
00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:20,400
Speaker 2: there was more clothing was found around her neck and

562
00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:23,120
Speaker 2: face and her mouth had been gagged.

563
00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:24,280
Speaker 3: So you've got her gagged.

564
00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:26,960
Speaker 2: Now you've wrapped more clothing around her head and face,

565
00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:33,280
Speaker 2: and there's blood beneath her body. Is that indicative of

566
00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:36,840
Speaker 2: something having that much blood underneath her body in the refrigerator?

567
00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:39,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, she's bleeding. Okay, let's just say that she and

568
00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:43,200
Speaker 1: again we don't know the configuration of her body, so

569
00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:45,440
Speaker 1: we're kind of spitballing here. But if she is in

570
00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:51,200
Speaker 1: a position where she's not inverted, her head is top side,

571
00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:57,480
Speaker 1: essentially she sustained quite a bit of trauma. If those

572
00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:01,120
Speaker 1: bits of clothing that are encompassing her her head, her neck,

573
00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:06,840
Speaker 1: her face are supersaturated with blood, then the blood could

574
00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:09,600
Speaker 1: drip down and settle in the lower portion of the

575
00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:13,359
Speaker 1: refrigerator beneath her body. And even if she's inverted and

576
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:15,680
Speaker 1: placed in there, you can have seepage of blood out

577
00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:18,640
Speaker 1: of the nose. If she's still alive when she goes

578
00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:22,080
Speaker 1: in there and she's just sustained, say any kind of fracture,

579
00:34:22,160 --> 00:34:24,279
Speaker 1: facial fractures or anything like that, she's going to be

580
00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:28,120
Speaker 1: bleeding from the nose, in the mouth. Perhaps she might

581
00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:31,160
Speaker 1: be coughing up blood in that environment, and that's going

582
00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:35,680
Speaker 1: to be very important for them to have assessed. I'm

583
00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:43,280
Speaker 1: really hoping from a physical evidence standpoint that not only

584
00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:47,200
Speaker 1: did they take everything that was associated with her, the

585
00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:50,040
Speaker 1: bindings and all of this, hopefully they left her in

586
00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:52,000
Speaker 1: that state. And that's what we do. You don't cut

587
00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:55,640
Speaker 1: these things loose at the scene. You would place her

588
00:34:56,320 --> 00:35:00,600
Speaker 1: into the body bag in the same position hopefully that

589
00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:03,320
Speaker 1: they found her in in the refrigerator, or as close

590
00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:06,920
Speaker 1: to its approximation as possible, with the binding still in place.

591
00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:09,960
Speaker 1: Because the forensic pathologist is not at the scene, they

592
00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:13,640
Speaker 1: can't there's no way that they can actually visualize this

593
00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:16,759
Speaker 1: if you cut everything away and then you take them

594
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:19,560
Speaker 1: to the morgue. It's better to leave the binding than

595
00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:22,799
Speaker 1: place and have them remove them after they've been very

596
00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:27,360
Speaker 1: specifically documented through photography. But to my point, I'm hoping

597
00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:30,480
Speaker 1: that they took this refrigerator as well. Dave, I'm hoping

598
00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:33,560
Speaker 1: that they unplugged this thing, they loaded this up, that

599
00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:38,040
Speaker 1: LAPD their evidence people took this, that it's actually going

600
00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:40,719
Speaker 1: to be studied in the crime lab and see what

601
00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:43,719
Speaker 1: they can come up with. Was a person cloved that

602
00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:48,640
Speaker 1: was touching the door handle, did they wipe it down perhaps,

603
00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:51,040
Speaker 1: or was there a latent print found anywhere on there?

604
00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:53,680
Speaker 1: We would expect to find her latent prints, maybe some

605
00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:55,680
Speaker 1: of her family members that have come over to visit,

606
00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:59,240
Speaker 1: maybe somebody that helped her move over this period of time.

607
00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:03,000
Speaker 1: But if there are any other unknown fingerprints there, they

608
00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:05,400
Speaker 1: can capture them at that moment time. Hopefully they didn't

609
00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:08,560
Speaker 1: just leave that refrigerator at the scene and it went

610
00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:11,919
Speaker 1: with the evidence collection people at that particular time.

611
00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:15,719
Speaker 2: The lead detective from the LAPD is a guy named

612
00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:19,960
Speaker 2: David Marcinek. He actually said that he has never investigated

613
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:23,520
Speaker 2: a case where the coroner listed homicidal violence as the

614
00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:24,200
Speaker 2: cause of death.

615
00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:25,080
Speaker 3: Have you ever seen that?

616
00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:28,000
Speaker 1: Yes? I have, and it's very nonspecific and what that

617
00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:33,560
Speaker 1: means anytime you hear that, and I'll tell you how

618
00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:36,080
Speaker 1: broad ranging it is. I even see that on because

619
00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:39,239
Speaker 1: I review a lot of cases, Dave. You know, with

620
00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:41,759
Speaker 1: everything I do in media, and I find it, I

621
00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:45,520
Speaker 1: find it with skeletal remains. They will list and many

622
00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:50,400
Speaker 1: times it'll read like this, nonspecific homicidal violence, manner of death,

623
00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:53,160
Speaker 1: which there are five. They'll list the manner of death

624
00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:56,680
Speaker 1: as a homicide, but they won't say specifically, like you know,

625
00:36:56,800 --> 00:36:59,440
Speaker 1: they'll say in the autopsy report, which they say in

626
00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:04,920
Speaker 1: her auto report that she sustained multiple blunt force trauma.

627
00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:09,200
Speaker 1: But however, there's this one caveat that we're hearing. They're

628
00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:13,160
Speaker 1: saying that this level of blunt force trauma that she

629
00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:17,720
Speaker 1: sustained is not traditionally sufficient to bring about a death.

630
00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:21,279
Speaker 1: Let that sink in. So what else are they looking at?

631
00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:26,360
Speaker 1: That's why I keep going back to this idea. Was

632
00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:30,399
Speaker 1: she actually still living when she was placed into the refrigerator?

633
00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:35,040
Speaker 1: And this is a case of a restrained woman who

634
00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:40,120
Speaker 1: has been severely beaten and then in the end she

635
00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:48,160
Speaker 1: was deprived of oxygen. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this

636
00:37:49,040 --> 00:38:00,120
Speaker 1: is bodybacks