1 00:00:05,840 --> 00:00:10,080 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that's a beautiful sound. This is It Could 2 00:00:10,119 --> 00:00:13,560 Speaker 1: Happen Here, a podcast about things falling apart and sometimes 3 00:00:13,640 --> 00:00:16,960 Speaker 1: putting them back together. I'm Robert Evans. I'm here again 4 00:00:17,120 --> 00:00:22,600 Speaker 1: with Dr James Stout. James say, hello, hi people, we 5 00:00:22,720 --> 00:00:27,920 Speaker 1: are in an undisclosed location. Is that going to get 6 00:00:27,920 --> 00:00:30,720 Speaker 1: you in trouble with your immigration stuff? Yes? Yeah, okay, 7 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:32,239 Speaker 1: well let's just bleep out the rest of that, but 8 00:00:32,320 --> 00:00:34,360 Speaker 1: keep the thing with me asking if it's gonna get 9 00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:37,680 Speaker 1: him in trouble with this immigration officer, that'll be fine. 10 00:00:38,040 --> 00:00:40,519 Speaker 1: This is a podcast that all too often, as Garrison 11 00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:43,360 Speaker 1: and I say, winds up us being like here's a problem, goodbye. 12 00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:46,040 Speaker 1: UM and telling people about problems is important, but it's 13 00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:48,920 Speaker 1: also important to talk about solutions. Now. There's been a 14 00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:51,240 Speaker 1: discourse not just on the Twitter but on the subreddit 15 00:00:51,320 --> 00:00:54,520 Speaker 1: for um it could Happen Here repeatedly over the last 16 00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:57,360 Speaker 1: few months of people talking about like how it anarchists 17 00:00:57,520 --> 00:01:01,200 Speaker 1: handle things like large scale distribution of food, an industrial base? 18 00:01:01,360 --> 00:01:04,280 Speaker 1: You know, how would anarchists? How would an anarchist society 19 00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:08,000 Speaker 1: handle infrastructure in any meaningful capacity? Um And I think 20 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:10,560 Speaker 1: there's kind of a wide spread idea among some people 21 00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:14,039 Speaker 1: that like, you have to have intense centralization um to 22 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:17,240 Speaker 1: do that. Um, now, James, you are I wasn't joking 23 00:01:17,240 --> 00:01:19,200 Speaker 1: about the doctor thing. You do have a PhD. In 24 00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:22,920 Speaker 1: Your specific area of specialty is the Spanish Civil War, 25 00:01:23,720 --> 00:01:27,520 Speaker 1: that's right. Yeah, even more specific than that, actually, my 26 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:32,039 Speaker 1: h My very specific area of a specialty is the 27 00:01:32,080 --> 00:01:34,039 Speaker 1: Second Republics in a period before the Civil War and 28 00:01:34,080 --> 00:01:36,880 Speaker 1: really like the first week of the Spanish Civil War. 29 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:43,200 Speaker 1: But yes, Catalonia specifically like revolutionary Catalonia. And I guess 30 00:01:43,319 --> 00:01:46,520 Speaker 1: my thing is the anti fascist Popular Olympics in six 31 00:01:46,640 --> 00:01:50,240 Speaker 1: but more broadly Catalonia and Catalonia before and in the 32 00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:53,080 Speaker 1: Civil War. Yeah. And one of the things that's interesting 33 00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:55,800 Speaker 1: about this period is you did have one of the 34 00:01:55,840 --> 00:01:58,680 Speaker 1: fairly rare times in history where a significant number of 35 00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:04,320 Speaker 1: people were living in an industrialized Ish nation um with 36 00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:08,040 Speaker 1: with anarchists under anarchist principles. Um. And a number of 37 00:02:08,080 --> 00:02:11,080 Speaker 1: things were done in an anarchist fashion, including the production 38 00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:14,400 Speaker 1: of armored vehicles, the maintenance of large amounts of agriculture, 39 00:02:14,600 --> 00:02:17,919 Speaker 1: you know, power and whatnot. Um. So yeah, how how 40 00:02:18,040 --> 00:02:21,600 Speaker 1: how do how do James? Yeah, how do anarchism? Let 41 00:02:21,600 --> 00:02:24,000 Speaker 1: me tell you. Um, I should start by saying, like, 42 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:26,680 Speaker 1: I'm not like a big, big theory guy. I'm more 43 00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:30,400 Speaker 1: of a sort of doing things guy, um person. But yeah, 44 00:02:30,520 --> 00:02:33,799 Speaker 1: so if we look at what we had in Catalonia 45 00:02:33,919 --> 00:02:36,040 Speaker 1: right in nineteen thirty six, the Spanish Civil War, if 46 00:02:36,040 --> 00:02:39,280 Speaker 1: you're not familiar, starts on the nineteenth d n six 47 00:02:39,320 --> 00:02:42,400 Speaker 1: with a coup. Right, Um, some of this will sound familiar. 48 00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:44,280 Speaker 1: Maybe you could listen to our podcast about Me and Ma. 49 00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:49,799 Speaker 1: But we have a military uprising against a leftist democratic 50 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:53,760 Speaker 1: government that has just been elected in nineteen thirty six, Um, 51 00:02:53,800 --> 00:02:56,360 Speaker 1: after two years of a right wing It's called the 52 00:02:56,400 --> 00:02:59,360 Speaker 1: Biennio Negro, like the black by any and the You know, 53 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:03,440 Speaker 1: you've lived through the Trump Ship, you understand. So we 54 00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:08,800 Speaker 1: have this coup that happens, and in cities across Spain, 55 00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:13,000 Speaker 1: the coup is largely stopped. The differentiating factors we talked 56 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:16,560 Speaker 1: about this in our podcast is where the people are armed, 57 00:03:17,320 --> 00:03:19,440 Speaker 1: the coup is stopped. Where the people are not armed, 58 00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:21,280 Speaker 1: where the government says, then we weren't released weapons to 59 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:25,040 Speaker 1: you the coup. The coup succeeds. Right now in Barcelona, 60 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:28,600 Speaker 1: the coup is stopped almost entirely by the anarchists with 61 00:03:28,639 --> 00:03:31,400 Speaker 1: a little bit of help from the police. Actually, oddly right, um, 62 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:37,360 Speaker 1: the one classic allies and the police fighting it together. 63 00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:39,800 Speaker 1: I mean it is also a very different kind of 64 00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:44,680 Speaker 1: situation with the I mean yeah, culturally, like, how does 65 00:03:44,720 --> 00:03:47,160 Speaker 1: that happen? How does that happen? Well, in Spain, you 66 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:50,120 Speaker 1: have various police forces, right, and some of them are 67 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:54,080 Speaker 1: created by the Second Republic, So they are police that 68 00:03:54,200 --> 00:03:58,720 Speaker 1: exist really to protect the republic from things that would 69 00:03:58,720 --> 00:04:01,000 Speaker 1: attack it. That does not mean that they do not 70 00:04:01,040 --> 00:04:03,240 Speaker 1: attack for workers, right, the Republic was often called the 71 00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:06,080 Speaker 1: Republic of order because they violently put down strikes and 72 00:04:06,080 --> 00:04:10,800 Speaker 1: the anarchists killed them. But in this instance they remained 73 00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:15,520 Speaker 1: loyal gil the cops. Yeah, that's that's a pretty steady thing. 74 00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:20,240 Speaker 1: But in this instance, the Republic was under attack from 75 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:23,359 Speaker 1: the right, right, from the military, and in some towns 76 00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:27,680 Speaker 1: the police split for the military, but in Barcelona they 77 00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:31,560 Speaker 1: largely did not. Write we have various police guards, police 78 00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:38,120 Speaker 1: groups in Spain, federal and local, but the assault guards 79 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:44,240 Speaker 1: and the civil guards in Barcelona largely remained with the republic, right, 80 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:46,840 Speaker 1: And it's important to maybe if we if we step 81 00:04:46,839 --> 00:04:49,080 Speaker 1: back a second to explain the concept of a popular front, 82 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:51,640 Speaker 1: then we can understand them more easily, right, And we 83 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:53,960 Speaker 1: do for more detail on this. We talk about a 84 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:56,520 Speaker 1: decent amount of this in our Behind the Insurrections episodes 85 00:04:56,560 --> 00:04:58,719 Speaker 1: on the Spanish Civil War and the popular fronts, which 86 00:04:58,720 --> 00:05:01,120 Speaker 1: aren't just a Spanish thing. The exist in France, they 87 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:02,800 Speaker 1: exist in a number of other countries. It's the thing 88 00:05:02,839 --> 00:05:06,520 Speaker 1: that gets tried on several occasions, often successfully, at least 89 00:05:06,560 --> 00:05:09,920 Speaker 1: from an electoral standpoint. Yeah, yeah, it's very successful at 90 00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:12,880 Speaker 1: this time, right. And it's important to understand that the 91 00:05:12,880 --> 00:05:16,000 Speaker 1: e C, which trying to stake his Catlan Republican left, 92 00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:18,520 Speaker 1: had more or less been on popular front since nineteen 93 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:21,680 Speaker 1: thirty one, and a popular front is basically this thing 94 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:23,640 Speaker 1: we keep talking about, where what if everybody on the 95 00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:26,160 Speaker 1: left could get on the same page about stopping fascism. 96 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:28,920 Speaker 1: That's the basic idea is like, you've got your Libs, 97 00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:31,520 Speaker 1: you've got your commies, you've got your anarchists, you've got 98 00:05:31,520 --> 00:05:34,599 Speaker 1: other weird junks of the left, and everybody agrees, let's 99 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:37,479 Speaker 1: all work together to deal with this specific right wing 100 00:05:37,560 --> 00:05:40,160 Speaker 1: threat right now? Yes, yeah, exactly, Like we can put 101 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:43,800 Speaker 1: our differences aside and move forward. Um, so that's what 102 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:46,160 Speaker 1: you have in the Second Republic is explicitly called the 103 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:49,320 Speaker 1: popular Front right, and so that is why the police 104 00:05:49,320 --> 00:05:52,320 Speaker 1: in Barcelona split with the anarchist Now, what happens in 105 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:55,520 Speaker 1: Barcelona is that the military march into town from outside 106 00:05:55,520 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 1: of town and just pretty much get get the the 107 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:03,520 Speaker 1: ship pushed back in by the anarchist right. All around town, 108 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:07,960 Speaker 1: gunfights breakout. In one instance, um the anarchists are able 109 00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:10,719 Speaker 1: to persuade the soldiers manning a machine gun that their 110 00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:13,880 Speaker 1: class solidarity is more important than their obedience to their officers, 111 00:06:13,880 --> 00:06:15,760 Speaker 1: and then they turn the machine gun on their offices 112 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:21,640 Speaker 1: and kill their officers instead. Unbelievably, this exceptionally fucking cool. Right. 113 00:06:22,400 --> 00:06:24,760 Speaker 1: The Spanish Civil War has all these amazing stories like that, 114 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:28,119 Speaker 1: but that that's one of my favorites. Right, doesn't happen often, 115 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:32,040 Speaker 1: it's great when it does. So what we have by 116 00:06:32,400 --> 00:06:34,640 Speaker 1: the end of the first week of the Spanish Civil 117 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:39,640 Speaker 1: War is a situation where in Catalonia the city is 118 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:41,560 Speaker 1: in the hands of the anarchists. Says this meeting that 119 00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:44,520 Speaker 1: happens between the President of Catalonia and the anarchists. It 120 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:47,039 Speaker 1: may or may not be apocryphal or the exact words 121 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:50,279 Speaker 1: may not be Apocypal doesn't really matter. What happens is 122 00:06:50,320 --> 00:06:53,880 Speaker 1: that the anarchists go to the president of Catalonia and 123 00:06:54,760 --> 00:06:58,400 Speaker 1: they he says to them, you're in control of the city. 124 00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:01,480 Speaker 1: The city's in your hands. I've been he actually the president. 125 00:07:01,520 --> 00:07:03,200 Speaker 1: He was liberal, but he'd been a lawyer for the 126 00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:07,240 Speaker 1: anarchist when they kept getting fired. Um, he said, if 127 00:07:07,279 --> 00:07:09,280 Speaker 1: you want me to be another foot soldier in the fire, 128 00:07:09,320 --> 00:07:11,760 Speaker 1: will'll quit my job. I'll just be another fight. But 129 00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:13,320 Speaker 1: if I can be useful to you as a politician, 130 00:07:13,560 --> 00:07:16,120 Speaker 1: I will as well. Right, So it's a submission, admission 131 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:19,600 Speaker 1: from elected bogeour politician that like, the city belongs to you, now, 132 00:07:19,680 --> 00:07:22,880 Speaker 1: to the people, and it's up to you what we 133 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:25,280 Speaker 1: do next. Right. What they did was they founded this. 134 00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:28,680 Speaker 1: They didn't actually sort of go right, it's all anarchists 135 00:07:28,760 --> 00:07:31,960 Speaker 1: right to salient anarchist groups of the CNT and the 136 00:07:32,080 --> 00:07:37,000 Speaker 1: f AI, the Anarchists Federation of Iberia and the National 137 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:40,840 Speaker 1: Confederation of Labor. He didn't they didn't sort of be like, okay, 138 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:43,080 Speaker 1: you were an anarchist control. They found out the People's 139 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:46,280 Speaker 1: Committee of Anti Fascist Militias and they said this is 140 00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:52,280 Speaker 1: an anti fascist Catalonia, right. And then they began to 141 00:07:52,440 --> 00:07:57,920 Speaker 1: control the industries according to the principles of anarcho syndicalism, right, 142 00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:01,240 Speaker 1: which is the idea that the way to move towards 143 00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:05,040 Speaker 1: a more libertarian society under moving from industrial capitalism is 144 00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:09,200 Speaker 1: through industrial unions, right. And they were extremely effective. I 145 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:12,720 Speaker 1: see this discourse a lot on Twitter or on Reddit 146 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:17,680 Speaker 1: or in places where where um, I don't want to 147 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:20,560 Speaker 1: just like dismiss people as tankies, but where we're because 148 00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:23,200 Speaker 1: like you know, maybe there's people can can listen and 149 00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:24,880 Speaker 1: we can talk and we can understand each other. But 150 00:08:25,080 --> 00:08:27,720 Speaker 1: where people go on the Internet to talk about politics 151 00:08:27,760 --> 00:08:30,400 Speaker 1: and say that like it's impossible for anarchists to do 152 00:08:30,560 --> 00:08:34,000 Speaker 1: supply chain, it's impossible for anarchists to do logistics, right, 153 00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:36,840 Speaker 1: And sometimes I think they think of anarchism as like 154 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:41,320 Speaker 1: like only able to work in groups of five people 155 00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:44,480 Speaker 1: or something. There's this broad spread attitude in part because 156 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:47,920 Speaker 1: of like some social attitudes among a lot of American anarchists, 157 00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:51,400 Speaker 1: certainly American anarchists who are very online that like anarchism 158 00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:53,040 Speaker 1: is when you live on a farm with four of 159 00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:56,120 Speaker 1: your friends, right, like that that it's very pastoral it's 160 00:08:56,200 --> 00:08:59,439 Speaker 1: anti industrial, and a decent amount of American anarchists are. 161 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:01,800 Speaker 1: It's not uncommon to find people who are like an 162 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:04,760 Speaker 1: archo primitivist or whatever. Um. But it is important to 163 00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:07,240 Speaker 1: note that there's a very long anarchist tradition as we're 164 00:09:07,280 --> 00:09:10,360 Speaker 1: talking about now that's deeply industrial. Yes, and like the 165 00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:12,600 Speaker 1: anarchist a right, the anarchist symbol that we all see 166 00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:15,680 Speaker 1: that comes from America. Right. The industrial workers of the 167 00:09:15,679 --> 00:09:18,840 Speaker 1: world come from the United States. The raised fist popular 168 00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:22,600 Speaker 1: salute comes from the IWW goes to Spain. Right, we 169 00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:24,240 Speaker 1: have this long tradition. But yeah, I think a lot 170 00:09:24,280 --> 00:09:26,880 Speaker 1: of American anarchists because it's easier to live and work 171 00:09:26,920 --> 00:09:30,080 Speaker 1: cooperatively in a small group somewhat detached. But what we 172 00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:31,880 Speaker 1: have in Catalonia that we don't have here is the 173 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:35,760 Speaker 1: majority of the working class committed to an archo syndicolism. Right. 174 00:09:35,920 --> 00:09:38,720 Speaker 1: So people return to work and work very effectively when 175 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:42,080 Speaker 1: they're not also volunteering also fighting in something like a 176 00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:45,719 Speaker 1: Druti column. Right. Um. These anarchist malicious with which we 177 00:09:45,720 --> 00:09:48,760 Speaker 1: can also talk about because I think they're very interesting. Um. 178 00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:50,839 Speaker 1: So for instance, one example, the elect the site is 179 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:54,520 Speaker 1: the Hispania Sweet factory, right, Spain, Swiss. It's just an 180 00:09:54,520 --> 00:09:59,119 Speaker 1: automobile manufacturer. It's like the GM factory. Within three days 181 00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:01,160 Speaker 1: after the revolution. And bear in mind that most of 182 00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:03,840 Speaker 1: them have been out shooting at soldiers for most of 183 00:10:03,880 --> 00:10:06,520 Speaker 1: that time. Right. Big thing that they had to deal 184 00:10:06,559 --> 00:10:09,640 Speaker 1: with was the soldiers often us the churches. They would 185 00:10:09,640 --> 00:10:14,959 Speaker 1: burn the churches, so like it was an extremely vicious 186 00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:19,720 Speaker 1: urban battle. They were They had converted their facility to 187 00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:23,640 Speaker 1: go from producing automobiles for rich people at the time 188 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:28,040 Speaker 1: right now everyone had a car, to producing technicals armored cars, right. 189 00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:30,839 Speaker 1: And you can see them if you google ce anti technicals, 190 00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:35,920 Speaker 1: the anti Arca because he's amazing, like Hodgepodge technicals that 191 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:38,520 Speaker 1: they had well did these things on and they were 192 00:10:38,559 --> 00:10:42,160 Speaker 1: able to turn those around and produce weapons for the front. 193 00:10:42,760 --> 00:10:45,319 Speaker 1: Another good example to see as Castle pistols, right. So 194 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:48,840 Speaker 1: as Castle is a famous anarchist leader, um and as 195 00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:51,600 Speaker 1: Casso was killed in the first day of the revolution 196 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:55,040 Speaker 1: when they were fighting the Coupe. There weren't there wasn't 197 00:10:55,160 --> 00:10:58,720 Speaker 1: much weapons manufacturing in Catalonia, right, And we're very familiar 198 00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:01,400 Speaker 1: with that from our work on the Emma and what 199 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:04,600 Speaker 1: they did was they set up a factory in Tarrassa 200 00:11:04,720 --> 00:11:08,640 Speaker 1: to make weapons. They made copies of ruby pistols actually, 201 00:11:08,679 --> 00:11:10,640 Speaker 1: but then they named them after as Cassa, so you 202 00:11:10,679 --> 00:11:12,319 Speaker 1: can still buy them. I sure you can google them, 203 00:11:12,320 --> 00:11:15,640 Speaker 1: you can find them. But these they set up a 204 00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:18,959 Speaker 1: weapons factory, right, and then under anarcho syndicates principles and 205 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:22,199 Speaker 1: the principles of sort of unions controlling this production system, 206 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:25,840 Speaker 1: unions controlling the supply chain system, which let's be honest, 207 00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:29,000 Speaker 1: they do largely anywhere, right, Like it's not Tim Apple 208 00:11:29,559 --> 00:11:32,120 Speaker 1: who buys a circuit board for your phone, it's someone else. 209 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:35,880 Speaker 1: This is a slightly more globalized system with Apple phones. 210 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:40,520 Speaker 1: But um, the the unions were able to set up 211 00:11:40,559 --> 00:11:43,360 Speaker 1: and change their production right, not just keep doing what 212 00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:47,080 Speaker 1: they were doing, but also pivot without the need for 213 00:11:47,160 --> 00:12:02,200 Speaker 1: people exercising authority over each other. Important understanding because you asked, 214 00:12:02,320 --> 00:12:05,840 Speaker 1: like how how would anarchists contendue industrial production? And it's like, well, 215 00:12:06,240 --> 00:12:08,320 Speaker 1: have you ever had a job that it had you 216 00:12:08,360 --> 00:12:10,360 Speaker 1: work in a factory or an assembly line or in 217 00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:12,600 Speaker 1: some sort of other industrial way. Have you ever been 218 00:12:12,640 --> 00:12:15,920 Speaker 1: a contractor and had a boss who sucked? Would it 219 00:12:15,960 --> 00:12:18,079 Speaker 1: have worked better if that boss hadn't been there. That's 220 00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:21,400 Speaker 1: the basic that's like the like it's entirely possible for 221 00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:23,800 Speaker 1: large groups of people to coordinate in a way that 222 00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:26,079 Speaker 1: is not a capitalist system where you're all accountable to 223 00:12:26,120 --> 00:12:29,000 Speaker 1: a shareholder, right, Like, there's there's a number of different 224 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:31,400 Speaker 1: ways to do that. But there's a long tradition and 225 00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:33,800 Speaker 1: in fact, some corporations that are still around to day 226 00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:35,800 Speaker 1: and quite large. You can look up the mon Dragon 227 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:38,400 Speaker 1: Corporation in Spain that have a lot of anarchist principles 228 00:12:38,440 --> 00:12:41,439 Speaker 1: in their organizing. Um, not that like it's an anarchist 229 00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:45,760 Speaker 1: company or whatever, but like there's significant, like significant amounts 230 00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:48,400 Speaker 1: of anarchist theory and why that operates the way it 231 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:52,280 Speaker 1: does and has been significantly successful. Um. There's some other 232 00:12:52,280 --> 00:12:56,120 Speaker 1: examples in I think it's Brazil. Um there's a large 233 00:12:56,120 --> 00:13:00,120 Speaker 1: like steel corporation and whatnot. Um, But yeah, like there's 234 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:04,200 Speaker 1: there's it's not there's nothing about anarchism that means you 235 00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:07,800 Speaker 1: can't have a factory producing armored cars. It just means 236 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:10,800 Speaker 1: you're not producing armored cars for the profit of the 237 00:13:11,320 --> 00:13:14,920 Speaker 1: Blockheed Martin Corporation or whatever. Yeah, you're producing armor cars 238 00:13:14,960 --> 00:13:17,520 Speaker 1: because you are fighting in a conflict that you hope 239 00:13:17,559 --> 00:13:20,880 Speaker 1: will liberate other people, right, and that is arguably a 240 00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:24,120 Speaker 1: more important motivation. And then wage labor, and certainly they 241 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:26,840 Speaker 1: in some cases increased productivity, but they were able to 242 00:13:26,880 --> 00:13:30,679 Speaker 1: sustain all the functions of an industrial society. And Catalonia 243 00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:33,720 Speaker 1: was very industrialized, much more so than the rest of Spain, right, 244 00:13:34,040 --> 00:13:37,080 Speaker 1: and that's perhaps why anarchism was so so important there. 245 00:13:37,520 --> 00:13:41,319 Speaker 1: And and yeah, very it doesn't require the arbitrary exercise 246 00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:43,320 Speaker 1: of authority for that to happen. And like you said, 247 00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:46,400 Speaker 1: there's plenty of examples of that. I think both of 248 00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:49,440 Speaker 1: us really enjoyed David Graeber's book. But this idea that 249 00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:52,720 Speaker 1: we move from one phase of society to another and 250 00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:55,920 Speaker 1: that necessitates a different form of political organization just isn't 251 00:13:55,920 --> 00:13:59,119 Speaker 1: borne out by the historical record. And I think Catalonia 252 00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:01,160 Speaker 1: is a really good exam put of that. Yeah, And 253 00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:03,880 Speaker 1: a further example of that is, in a pretty similar 254 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:07,560 Speaker 1: time frame you're talking earlier, but not but maybe like 255 00:14:07,640 --> 00:14:10,120 Speaker 1: less than twenty years earlier, you have Nest mack No 256 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:14,959 Speaker 1: and mock Nova in Ukraine, this kind of independent, autonomous 257 00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:18,680 Speaker 1: anarchist society that is extremely successful in war that the 258 00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:22,720 Speaker 1: Soviet Union does not exist without mock No fighting the 259 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:26,400 Speaker 1: whites um as as successfully as he didn't stopping in 260 00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:30,480 Speaker 1: advance on on Moscow. And that's a rural that were 261 00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:33,880 Speaker 1: not industrialized, and in fact their anarchism was very much 262 00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:37,160 Speaker 1: based in kind of the traditional methods of organizing rural 263 00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:40,760 Speaker 1: societies in Ukraine. Um, And you have that a lot 264 00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:42,440 Speaker 1: in other like you have a lot there are a 265 00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:44,800 Speaker 1: lot of areas in which anarchism is common in rural 266 00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:47,560 Speaker 1: areas and it's more of like a state socialism in 267 00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:50,480 Speaker 1: industrialized areas. But you can have you also have this 268 00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:55,160 Speaker 1: deep history of industrialized anarchism and there's Uh, it shows 269 00:14:55,160 --> 00:15:00,680 Speaker 1: that there's a capability for anarchist principles to function with infrastructure. Yeah. 270 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:02,600 Speaker 1: And if you want to look for rural anarchism, you 271 00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:04,920 Speaker 1: can look in southern Spain, right, there's if you want 272 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:07,000 Speaker 1: to look at a small case study of the anarchists 273 00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:09,880 Speaker 1: of Cassas just is a great example of that, right 274 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:11,800 Speaker 1: people can find I'm sure it's free online, it's a 275 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:15,720 Speaker 1: pdf now. Um. But yes, it doesn't have to just 276 00:15:15,800 --> 00:15:18,760 Speaker 1: exist in urban or a rural society or between the two. Right, 277 00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:24,240 Speaker 1: Like whether Druti column went south Okay, the Drury column 278 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:26,680 Speaker 1: is an anarchist column. There are a number of other 279 00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:30,000 Speaker 1: anarchist columns, but this one is the sort of the 280 00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:32,640 Speaker 1: pre eminent one, the one that was most successful because 281 00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:35,480 Speaker 1: they tended not to get bogged down as much in 282 00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:38,760 Speaker 1: fighting in rural environments where they were not skilled, but 283 00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:41,480 Speaker 1: they were extremely skilled, much more so than the military, 284 00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:44,440 Speaker 1: and fighting in urban environments, right, So they were very successful. 285 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:48,560 Speaker 1: They went to Zaragotha and then fought there. While they 286 00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:51,080 Speaker 1: were there, they were collectivizing the farms, right, And I'm 287 00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:53,720 Speaker 1: sure some of that collectivization was forced. I don't want 288 00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:57,400 Speaker 1: to be like everything was rainbows and unicorns, but it's 289 00:15:57,400 --> 00:16:00,560 Speaker 1: a war. There's no side in a war whose handstake lane, right, 290 00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:03,560 Speaker 1: Like that's not minimizing or ignoring it. It's just stating that, 291 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:05,800 Speaker 1: like you, you have to sometimes talk about the broad 292 00:16:05,880 --> 00:16:08,960 Speaker 1: strokes of what's going on with without pretending to whitewash 293 00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:11,400 Speaker 1: the fact that I'm certain ugly things happen there as well. 294 00:16:11,720 --> 00:16:14,240 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, and like yeah, as you say, ugly things 295 00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:16,240 Speaker 1: happen in war. And I think if you if you 296 00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:19,440 Speaker 1: want that not to happen, maybe, I don't know, you 297 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:24,240 Speaker 1: live on the Internet. But like um, the dirt Econum 298 00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:26,520 Speaker 1: then goes to Madrid, right in the seat of Madrid, 299 00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:29,240 Speaker 1: which was the also the first conflict with International brigades, 300 00:16:29,280 --> 00:16:32,040 Speaker 1: the first battle International Brigades fourteen. It was a very 301 00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:34,200 Speaker 1: successful battle for the republic. It was a bottle that 302 00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:36,960 Speaker 1: allowed the republic. If we look at the two battles 303 00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:41,880 Speaker 1: that allow the republic to exist, right, it's conflict in Barcelona, 304 00:16:42,040 --> 00:16:44,360 Speaker 1: the battle for Barcelona, the first days of the Civil War, 305 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:47,280 Speaker 1: and it's a battle in Madrid right now. Madrid is 306 00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:49,720 Speaker 1: not as much of an anarchist city, is a city 307 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:54,320 Speaker 1: with anarchism, but it's also more salient other socialism. Um. 308 00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:57,680 Speaker 1: So when the Drooty column arrives right and takes part 309 00:16:57,800 --> 00:17:00,400 Speaker 1: in the combat there, because they have been success because 310 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:03,440 Speaker 1: they're very good urban warfare. And a lot of the 311 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:06,320 Speaker 1: people in the Druty column didn't want Dorouty to go, 312 00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:08,160 Speaker 1: but he decided it was important to go as part 313 00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:11,199 Speaker 1: of this popular front right to fight this this huge 314 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:16,320 Speaker 1: push of Spain's most professional soldiers. Right and that's where 315 00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:19,240 Speaker 1: Doruty you can read, I know somebody's working on an 316 00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:23,679 Speaker 1: unlike a graphic novel about him. Yeah yeah, yeah, and 317 00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:25,399 Speaker 1: you should give them your money if you have some 318 00:17:25,560 --> 00:17:29,080 Speaker 1: but able path. His book about Druty is very good. 319 00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:31,480 Speaker 1: It's an amazing book because you turn over the line 320 00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:33,000 Speaker 1: of notes and he's like, oh, yeah, this book has 321 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:35,080 Speaker 1: taken me a long time to write because I was 322 00:17:35,119 --> 00:17:37,680 Speaker 1: involved in a resistance against Franco and spent twenty five 323 00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:43,719 Speaker 1: years in jail, solitary confinement. But what a chad. But 324 00:17:44,119 --> 00:17:46,400 Speaker 1: so you can read about Druty there, and Druty dies 325 00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:49,560 Speaker 1: in the Battle for Madrid. But it's also kind of 326 00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:54,080 Speaker 1: important to look at Spain is effective anaka Spain is 327 00:17:54,119 --> 00:17:58,840 Speaker 1: effective in fighting fascism. Um. What stops it being effective? 328 00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:03,399 Speaker 1: To my mind, it is not anarchist principles military organization. 329 00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:06,200 Speaker 1: The other thing that was that was impressive about the 330 00:18:06,280 --> 00:18:09,000 Speaker 1: Ruty column was that they had embedded army loyal army 331 00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:11,480 Speaker 1: officers and they listened to them and they learned from them, 332 00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:14,320 Speaker 1: and they said, Okay, we don't good at some stuff, 333 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:16,600 Speaker 1: not good other stuff we would learn other anarchists didn't. 334 00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:19,240 Speaker 1: It didn't tend to do as well. Yeah, this is 335 00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:24,320 Speaker 1: a common misconception because anarchists are very much against hierarchy, um, 336 00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:29,760 Speaker 1: which doesn't mean being against professionalism or competence, right, Like, 337 00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:32,359 Speaker 1: it's the idea that like the hierarchy, for example, that 338 00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:34,800 Speaker 1: led several million young boys to get machine gun in 339 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:36,840 Speaker 1: World War One because the people who were in charge 340 00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:40,120 Speaker 1: of them had not learned how machine guns function. Um, 341 00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:42,760 Speaker 1: was a problem. But if you've got someone who has 342 00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:45,200 Speaker 1: been training their entire life as a soldier and understands 343 00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:49,080 Speaker 1: very effectively how artillery functions and how machine guns function, 344 00:18:49,240 --> 00:18:53,280 Speaker 1: and because they have professionalized in that, it's not against 345 00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:57,640 Speaker 1: anarchist principles to listen to that person in a gunfight. Yeah, yeah, yeah, expertise, 346 00:18:57,680 --> 00:19:00,919 Speaker 1: it's not it's not. Yeah, there's not in battle with liberty, 347 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:03,440 Speaker 1: right and so yeah, they were very willing to listen 348 00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:04,840 Speaker 1: to that. And in the same way they would be 349 00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:07,560 Speaker 1: in a like. Again, these people have worked in factories, right. 350 00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:09,040 Speaker 1: They understand that if you don't know how to use 351 00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:12,280 Speaker 1: a lathe, and you exert your liberty to use a lathe, 352 00:19:12,280 --> 00:19:14,080 Speaker 1: and your hand's gonna end up in a lathe. When 353 00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:16,479 Speaker 1: I when I go to a doctor and say, i'm am, 354 00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:19,439 Speaker 1: I have gotten this horrible infected wound, what do I 355 00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:22,080 Speaker 1: do about it? I am not yielding to a hierarchy, 356 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:26,440 Speaker 1: I am I am accepting their expertise. You know. Yeah, yeah, 357 00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:29,240 Speaker 1: I think sometimes people I think your listeners are much 358 00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:31,720 Speaker 1: better informed than this generally, But people confuse anarchism with 359 00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:34,160 Speaker 1: a predilegtion for chaos and violence, and it isn't that right, 360 00:19:34,359 --> 00:19:37,640 Speaker 1: It's just it's a desire to to be more free 361 00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:39,120 Speaker 1: and to not be controlled and I have a boot 362 00:19:39,160 --> 00:19:42,000 Speaker 1: on your neck. And but to to wind up that thought, 363 00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:46,800 Speaker 1: like the reason that Spain that the Republican Spain starts 364 00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:49,240 Speaker 1: to lose is not because there are anarchists. And you 365 00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:51,600 Speaker 1: will definitely see this discourse on the internet. Many people 366 00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:54,560 Speaker 1: will tell me that I'm mistaken about this. It's my 367 00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:59,359 Speaker 1: fucking degree, but um yeah, I would argue that it's 368 00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:02,520 Speaker 1: because the Western world that did quote unquote democracy to 369 00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:04,640 Speaker 1: the end of them, right, Yeah, this is like there's 370 00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:06,520 Speaker 1: there's this. We talked about this a bit in the 371 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:08,600 Speaker 1: episodes we did on it. But like there's this whole 372 00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:10,760 Speaker 1: argument that I'm sure you'll get into more between like 373 00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:13,960 Speaker 1: the socialists, the communists, you know, in the anarchists, but 374 00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:17,399 Speaker 1: a huge part of it, probably most of it is 375 00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:21,840 Speaker 1: that like the fascists are getting guns from other fascists 376 00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:26,840 Speaker 1: and tanks and aircraft often flown by professional fascist pilots 377 00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:30,000 Speaker 1: who are training for what's going to become World War two, 378 00:20:30,359 --> 00:20:33,600 Speaker 1: whereas Republican Spain has some old bulk action rifles that 379 00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:36,879 Speaker 1: got smuggled in through France. Yeah, and some mosens. It 380 00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:39,199 Speaker 1: was sold by America to Russia, from Russia to Mexico 381 00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:42,920 Speaker 1: and then from Mexico back to Spain. Right like um 382 00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:45,000 Speaker 1: and and yeah, these old males as all Well talks 383 00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:46,920 Speaker 1: about that are rusted and they can't open the boat 384 00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:49,080 Speaker 1: after they fire them and they reload their ammunition and 385 00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:52,439 Speaker 1: its ship. But yeah, and on the other side, right, 386 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:54,600 Speaker 1: like the coup doesn't work if how does the Army 387 00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:57,679 Speaker 1: of Africa get from Africa to Spain. It doesn't swim, right, 388 00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:00,719 Speaker 1: How do these generals get from Africa to Spain air 389 00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:05,520 Speaker 1: lifted by other fascist nations? Right, we don't see that, right. Actually, 390 00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:09,199 Speaker 1: France wanted to sell planes to the Republic and the 391 00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:11,959 Speaker 1: early days of the war that Britain pretty much put 392 00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:15,800 Speaker 1: the Kai bosh on it. And there's an interesting parallel 393 00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:17,439 Speaker 1: with what you're seeing in Ukraine right now, because in 394 00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:21,240 Speaker 1: Ukraine you have a republican government um in a military 395 00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:24,639 Speaker 1: that has a fairly wide selection. Jake Camerhand just posted 396 00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:27,000 Speaker 1: like a vegan extremist who's fighting on the front lines 397 00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:28,600 Speaker 1: of the because it's like, yeah, there's a whole bunch 398 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:32,640 Speaker 1: of different ideological tendencies fighting on behalf of the broadly 399 00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:36,560 Speaker 1: Ukrainian side there, including some very nasty ones. Um, but 400 00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:39,639 Speaker 1: you're kind of seeing what happens when a fascist power 401 00:21:40,119 --> 00:21:43,760 Speaker 1: invades a country like that to stop a republic, and 402 00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:47,960 Speaker 1: democratic powers send them the most advanced weapons on the planet, right, 403 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:50,800 Speaker 1: which is all it would have taken to roll back 404 00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:52,679 Speaker 1: fascism in Spain, and then pressed. You know, there were 405 00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:55,199 Speaker 1: a lot of German Italian exiles fighting in Spain, right 406 00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:58,879 Speaker 1: because the Second Republic had relatively liberal, silent policies and 407 00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:00,800 Speaker 1: they knew the only way to stop fashion in Italy 408 00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:02,439 Speaker 1: in Germany with the rule at bank in Spain and 409 00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:05,080 Speaker 1: keep going right. I often have this, and I've had 410 00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:07,359 Speaker 1: this as we've reported on men or this weird thought 411 00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:09,600 Speaker 1: of like I'll be reading about the Spanish Civil War 412 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:12,560 Speaker 1: in my office and I'll look at my gun collection. 413 00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:14,119 Speaker 1: Although if I took every if I had, if I 414 00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:15,919 Speaker 1: could go back in time with everything I have in 415 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:18,040 Speaker 1: my house, all of the m O and guns. There 416 00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:20,080 Speaker 1: are a couple of battles that might have been turned 417 00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:23,040 Speaker 1: around by just that because while for one thing, because 418 00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:26,359 Speaker 1: modern semi automatic arms are much more effective than bolt 419 00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:28,879 Speaker 1: action rifles. But just like the level of armament that 420 00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:35,280 Speaker 1: those people had was um not there were eighteenth century 421 00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:38,520 Speaker 1: armies better equipped for combat. Yeah, I mean you see 422 00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:42,399 Speaker 1: people with muzzle loaders and stuff in the Spanish Civil War, right. 423 00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:45,280 Speaker 1: And then the only place taken term for arms is 424 00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:47,600 Speaker 1: the Soviet Union, right. And they don't just get arms, 425 00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:50,119 Speaker 1: they also get these generals, right, who are quote unquote 426 00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:53,080 Speaker 1: advising that they're not they commanding units. Uh. There's a 427 00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:56,760 Speaker 1: lot of Soviet politicking at play, right, and as much 428 00:22:56,800 --> 00:23:01,080 Speaker 1: as anything. And you can read like um, Peter Carroll's 429 00:23:01,119 --> 00:23:05,280 Speaker 1: book on the Abraham Lincoln Brigades or a brigade uh 430 00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:09,800 Speaker 1: Battalian sorry they want to st brigade. That will give 431 00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:13,719 Speaker 1: you a better idea of like exactly how this strict 432 00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:19,240 Speaker 1: authoritarian communist control really sacked the spirit out of the republic. 433 00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:22,679 Speaker 1: And you can see this in May of seven, right, 434 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:24,680 Speaker 1: which is what jor Well writes about in his book, 435 00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:27,520 Speaker 1: right the May day when we see a conflict between 436 00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:31,239 Speaker 1: the non Stylinist communist, they weren't Trotskyist. To pume right, 437 00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:35,240 Speaker 1: very often portrayed Trotsky Trusky himself, like you can see 438 00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:37,040 Speaker 1: the letters that he wrote to them where he had 439 00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:40,200 Speaker 1: thrown disagreements with them if you care to look. Um. 440 00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:43,640 Speaker 1: But we see this conflict, the shooting war right between 441 00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:47,439 Speaker 1: the anarchist and the non Styalinist communists Unerstanis communists. And 442 00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:50,800 Speaker 1: what comes out of that is this idea among people 443 00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:53,639 Speaker 1: on the libertarian left, for its broad spectrum of libertarian 444 00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:56,080 Speaker 1: leftism that we saw in Spain, that it's not really 445 00:23:56,080 --> 00:24:01,200 Speaker 1: worth fighting for the republic or for the facts, because 446 00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:02,800 Speaker 1: either way we're just going to have the boot on 447 00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:04,800 Speaker 1: our neck. Right the secret police, I say, well, like 448 00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:07,120 Speaker 1: the secret police spent far, far, far more time going 449 00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:10,639 Speaker 1: after anarchists in the Republican Army than they did after spies. 450 00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:15,240 Speaker 1: Oh no, really, the authoritarian left spent more of their 451 00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:18,720 Speaker 1: time fighting anarchists than the fat wild crazy is it? 452 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:20,600 Speaker 1: And it's never happened again. We learned from it, We 453 00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:23,920 Speaker 1: moved on, we've become better people. Yeah, yeah, it's great. 454 00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:35,840 Speaker 1: We were find now we've fixed it. For a lot 455 00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:37,679 Speaker 1: of the people fighting for the republic right, what are 456 00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:40,679 Speaker 1: you fighting for? And I think that's important that like 457 00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:43,959 Speaker 1: we remember that even in times when things are bad, right, 458 00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:45,679 Speaker 1: you have to think about what things should be like 459 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:48,400 Speaker 1: you have to try and model that in what you're 460 00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:52,480 Speaker 1: doing now on an economic level, when you're talking about 461 00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:56,359 Speaker 1: like they come in they collectivize these farms. There's like anarchists, 462 00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:59,800 Speaker 1: like the anarchists in large chunks and like in Catalonian particular, 463 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:02,240 Speaker 1: are kind of running what at the time as a 464 00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:05,320 Speaker 1: fairly modern industrial economy. How does that? How does that work? Like? 465 00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:07,960 Speaker 1: Do do you have any kind of like overall state, 466 00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:10,160 Speaker 1: like during the period of time where you know they 467 00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:13,639 Speaker 1: had reasonable control and also weren't completely overwhelmed with the fighting, 468 00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:16,320 Speaker 1: How did it function? Yeah, you kind of have a state, right, 469 00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:19,080 Speaker 1: you have this sort of people's committee, anti factious, militious, 470 00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:22,600 Speaker 1: but uh not really because things things are somewhat chaotic 471 00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:24,640 Speaker 1: rights on the state as we would maybe understand it now. 472 00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:27,199 Speaker 1: So what we have instead is is anarcho syndicalism. Right, 473 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:31,320 Speaker 1: these unions going to other unions and organizing among themselves. Right, 474 00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:35,800 Speaker 1: Like you know the steel workers need X from the miners, right, 475 00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:40,880 Speaker 1: the miners and then the the tube makers need extra. 476 00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:43,920 Speaker 1: The steel workers and the gun company need X from 477 00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:49,119 Speaker 1: the from the tubemakers, right, and so organizing along industrial 478 00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:52,720 Speaker 1: union levels allows things to continue, right, allows the trains 479 00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:58,200 Speaker 1: and trams to continue, allows them to continue manufacturing unitions. Right. 480 00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:01,679 Speaker 1: So it's it's an eco syndicalism, it is. It's a 481 00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:05,720 Speaker 1: type of libertarian leftism. And then we see these collective 482 00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:09,000 Speaker 1: or sort of cooperative I should say, farming arrangements, right, 483 00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:12,080 Speaker 1: where again people people are farming, people are sort of 484 00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:16,480 Speaker 1: joining together their industrial small holdings and then delivering those, 485 00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:19,600 Speaker 1: contributing those to the city, to the war effort. And 486 00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:25,400 Speaker 1: there's something, as you see in Ukraine, right, relatively special 487 00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:28,200 Speaker 1: that happens in these times of conflict where people are 488 00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:32,680 Speaker 1: i think more willing to just step aside from the 489 00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:35,520 Speaker 1: am and I think that's always been that was a 490 00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:37,400 Speaker 1: thing for the Spanish working class for a long time. 491 00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:40,120 Speaker 1: But to step aside from the accumulation of stuff, right, 492 00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:42,840 Speaker 1: from the accumulation of individual goods and wealth, and to 493 00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:44,720 Speaker 1: say like, yeah, well let's all get stuck in together. 494 00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:46,879 Speaker 1: And I think that helped to allow that to happen, 495 00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:51,000 Speaker 1: helped to allow it to continue. But yeah, these organizations 496 00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:54,399 Speaker 1: between unions and collectives worked right, they functioned. You can't 497 00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:56,840 Speaker 1: argue that they didn't work at the Republican Army didn't 498 00:26:56,880 --> 00:27:00,399 Speaker 1: starve in a week or run out of fuel and things. Right, 499 00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:03,760 Speaker 1: These these anarchist columns were able to travel from Barcelona 500 00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:05,919 Speaker 1: to the Agostina and from the Agossa back to Madrid 501 00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:09,520 Speaker 1: like that. That doesn't happen if you're incapable of organizing. Right. 502 00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:13,439 Speaker 1: So in the factories, these people had already been organizing together, right. 503 00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:17,000 Speaker 1: They were on strike often right there. They knew how 504 00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:21,320 Speaker 1: to They had an existing system for organizing things because 505 00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:24,240 Speaker 1: they already organized to pay strike funds. They already organized 506 00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:26,320 Speaker 1: to look after other unique other parts of the C 507 00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:28,840 Speaker 1: and T when they were out right, they organized to 508 00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:31,320 Speaker 1: have policy statements on various things. So they had these 509 00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:35,879 Speaker 1: existing means to organize. They just didn't have authorities that 510 00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:37,800 Speaker 1: told people what to do. They knew how to work 511 00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:41,480 Speaker 1: together to decide what to do. Yeah. I had this 512 00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:45,760 Speaker 1: beautiful moment during the uprisings where I was in a 513 00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:50,119 Speaker 1: city um and I was hanging out with members of 514 00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:53,439 Speaker 1: a medical collective and the building that they were in 515 00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:57,440 Speaker 1: there was a couple of thousand square feet of they 516 00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:01,040 Speaker 1: were producing by assembly line Kim White's for clearing mace 517 00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:04,399 Speaker 1: out of your eyes. Um. They were producing like I 518 00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:07,879 Speaker 1: fax medical kits. They had racks of body armor that 519 00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:11,119 Speaker 1: had been donated or purchased with donated funds UM. And 520 00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:14,919 Speaker 1: it was all it was a substantial amount of equipment 521 00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:17,399 Speaker 1: that was being and and respirators and stuff that was 522 00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:22,440 Speaker 1: being organized as symbol put together, UM distributed, putting people's hands, 523 00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:24,000 Speaker 1: put in the hands of people who are going out 524 00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:27,199 Speaker 1: and utilizing it on a regular basis. UM. And it 525 00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:29,280 Speaker 1: was being done like with within the principles of kind 526 00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:31,880 Speaker 1: of like like a number of things can be organized 527 00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:35,760 Speaker 1: that way. It's it is it is handling the collection, 528 00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:41,120 Speaker 1: the distribution um of of of equipment and the collection 529 00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:45,560 Speaker 1: disbursement of funds like for potentially like thousands and thousands 530 00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:50,920 Speaker 1: of people. Um, that's perfectly doable under anarchist principles. And 531 00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:53,120 Speaker 1: anarchists have done that kind of thing a number of 532 00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:55,000 Speaker 1: times in the world. Yeah, Like if you look at 533 00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:57,760 Speaker 1: the example of the soup kitchens right at pro tearing 534 00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:01,440 Speaker 1: dine as a restaurants they called them right in in Barcelona, 535 00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:05,680 Speaker 1: a Madrid, they took over the writs right and sourced 536 00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:09,400 Speaker 1: food from rural anarchists to to feed people, right, rather 537 00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:11,640 Speaker 1: than saying like, oh, you know you have to buy feared, 538 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:12,960 Speaker 1: you have to buy feod, you have to buy food. 539 00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:15,120 Speaker 1: You come here and anyone can eat if you're hungry, right, 540 00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:17,400 Speaker 1: and yeah, you see people doing that. Look at the 541 00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:20,640 Speaker 1: unit that we we spoke about Miama, right, the Crenny 542 00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:26,160 Speaker 1: generation c Army. They those guys they didn't have like 543 00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:28,360 Speaker 1: you know, no one was wearing rank, right, No one 544 00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:31,080 Speaker 1: was a general or a captain or or a sergeant. Right. 545 00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:34,520 Speaker 1: They talked and to our point before about expertise. Some 546 00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:38,400 Speaker 1: people we found out are the person we were talking to, Zara, 547 00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:41,800 Speaker 1: who was who was killed. Um was seen as a 548 00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:44,840 Speaker 1: commander by people because of what they wrote about him 549 00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:47,240 Speaker 1: after he died. But he never talked about himself that one. No. 550 00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:49,440 Speaker 1: In fact, he told us right that if some people 551 00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:51,680 Speaker 1: knew more, they've been in the fight for longer, they 552 00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:53,520 Speaker 1: knew the terrain, and then we'd listen to them and 553 00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:55,320 Speaker 1: they have a bit more weight in that conversation. But 554 00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:57,920 Speaker 1: we all just decide together what we what we want 555 00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:01,880 Speaker 1: to do um and that that works, right, because those 556 00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:07,000 Speaker 1: guys were very well respected right among the the anti 557 00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:09,640 Speaker 1: coup forces in Mihama because of their willingness to fight, 558 00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:12,360 Speaker 1: their effectiveness, and those guys have a good battlefield record 559 00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:15,680 Speaker 1: against the government troops. Yeah yeah, yeah yeah, And like 560 00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:18,760 Speaker 1: it wasn't just again like it's not just five guys fighting, right, 561 00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:22,120 Speaker 1: it's also they were able and and in Miama we 562 00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:24,360 Speaker 1: still see this with like the underground and they called 563 00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:27,480 Speaker 1: the Development Committeels and the people who are they were 564 00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:29,680 Speaker 1: the people who did the shield walls and that kind 565 00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:32,240 Speaker 1: of thing. And people will be familiar with the George 566 00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:35,400 Speaker 1: Floyd uprising for them, they went underground and they're developing 567 00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:37,760 Speaker 1: ways to make weapons now, right, So they're the people 568 00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:40,240 Speaker 1: you'll see making three D printed guns. So the people 569 00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:45,120 Speaker 1: you'll see making improvised explosive devices, fertilized bombs, working out 570 00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:47,719 Speaker 1: how to make handmade to two rifles we've seen right, 571 00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:50,959 Speaker 1: Like and again they don't they don't need someone in 572 00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:54,360 Speaker 1: charge for that, right And in times of difficulty, we 573 00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:59,440 Speaker 1: revert to taking care of one another and getting things done. 574 00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:02,120 Speaker 1: We we don't contrary to I think what what we 575 00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:04,840 Speaker 1: led to believe, sort of revert to we don't need 576 00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:07,680 Speaker 1: like a strong leader, dear leader. We we we are 577 00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:10,520 Speaker 1: capable of looking after one another outside of authority in 578 00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:14,320 Speaker 1: the state. Yeah. And it also stands the point that 579 00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:18,160 Speaker 1: like accepting the authority of someone with expertise in certain situations, 580 00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:21,120 Speaker 1: like the fundamental way in which effective military is organized 581 00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:24,120 Speaker 1: tends to involve the existence of an n c O corps. 582 00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:27,479 Speaker 1: Right you, Every military that is good at fighting has 583 00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:29,360 Speaker 1: an in c O corp. Part of why Russia has 584 00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:33,320 Speaker 1: acquitted itself so unbelievably poorly in the fighting in Ukraine 585 00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:35,400 Speaker 1: is that that that does not functionally exist in the 586 00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:38,720 Speaker 1: Russian military. Um. It is absolutely the basic idea of 587 00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:41,800 Speaker 1: an n c O corp is that with among fighting units, 588 00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:44,720 Speaker 1: there should be dudes whose job and I say dudes 589 00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:46,720 Speaker 1: in the non gendered sense, there should be people whose 590 00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:50,560 Speaker 1: job is to make the functioning of that fighting unit 591 00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:53,640 Speaker 1: be their whole life, and they stay at that job 592 00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:56,040 Speaker 1: for a long time. They don't just like move up 593 00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:59,560 Speaker 1: and ship. They're just they're there to keep that unit 594 00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:03,080 Speaker 1: function n UM. And from the perspective of like someone 595 00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:05,800 Speaker 1: who is an anarchist, I mean as an anarchist who's 596 00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:07,840 Speaker 1: been shot at a number of times. When I'm hanging 597 00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:10,440 Speaker 1: out and there's like some grizzled ass fucking veteran in 598 00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:12,200 Speaker 1: the unit I'm embedded with. I'm gonna do whatever that 599 00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:15,800 Speaker 1: fucker says, right, absolutely, because you're crazy, not too, because 600 00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:18,600 Speaker 1: that's just good sense. It's the same thing as like 601 00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:21,360 Speaker 1: if you're in deep bush or whatever with somebody who 602 00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:24,520 Speaker 1: knows wilderness survival and they tell you don't eat that plant, 603 00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:26,800 Speaker 1: or they tell you, you know, this is a bad 604 00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:28,920 Speaker 1: place to camp for this reason or whatever. You listen 605 00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:32,440 Speaker 1: to them, like that's again, and you know, factories function 606 00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:34,760 Speaker 1: the same way. Having been on building sites, they function 607 00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:36,640 Speaker 1: the same way. Somebody tells you don't do that, it's 608 00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:39,280 Speaker 1: a bad idea, and they clearly have been doing it 609 00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:41,880 Speaker 1: more than you. You listen to them. That's not accepting 610 00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:45,240 Speaker 1: that you have a boss. That's accepting that you have 611 00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:49,360 Speaker 1: people who are more experienced and competent in certain things. Yeah, 612 00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:52,440 Speaker 1: and if you took but ineffective armies sometimes have it. 613 00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:54,680 Speaker 1: It's it's it's it's in the office of coal, right, 614 00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:57,040 Speaker 1: it's people who are in charge but maybe ought not 615 00:32:57,120 --> 00:32:58,760 Speaker 1: to be. But it's because of the status with that 616 00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:01,160 Speaker 1: wealth or something else. Right it And you see like 617 00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:05,480 Speaker 1: very effective fighting in the anarchist units right with men 618 00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:09,040 Speaker 1: and women and actually people who would were non binary 619 00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:11,120 Speaker 1: as well, like people who would call non binary didn't 620 00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:14,959 Speaker 1: call themselves out then. Um, but um, we see that 621 00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:18,160 Speaker 1: because they were willing to elect officers, right, but then 622 00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:20,960 Speaker 1: listen to them. And it wasn't it was listened to 623 00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:24,160 Speaker 1: not obey, right. But but that was an extremely effective 624 00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:26,640 Speaker 1: way of doing things. Yeah. I was having a conversation 625 00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:28,240 Speaker 1: with a buddy of mine who was a marine and 626 00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:31,320 Speaker 1: saw some very heavy combat in Iraq years ago about 627 00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:33,920 Speaker 1: like the way in which certain anarchist units had worked 628 00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:35,840 Speaker 1: over time, and talked about the fact that they elected 629 00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:38,000 Speaker 1: their leaders, and he was like, well, we didn't do 630 00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:40,680 Speaker 1: that obviously, but there were people you knew you shouldn't 631 00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:42,840 Speaker 1: listen to and people you did, and you understood who 632 00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:46,120 Speaker 1: you wanted calling the shots when bullets were flying, right, Like, 633 00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:49,520 Speaker 1: regardless of what the actual hierarchy was. It's just like 634 00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:51,200 Speaker 1: you know in the U. S. Military of a platoon 635 00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:53,840 Speaker 1: leader who was an officer who's been to college, and 636 00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:57,680 Speaker 1: you have a platoon sergeant, and they do somewhat different things. 637 00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:01,600 Speaker 1: But every reasonable person and who has interfaced with those 638 00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:05,040 Speaker 1: units will agree that like it, a good platoon leader 639 00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:07,040 Speaker 1: even though they're an officer and a higher rank. It's 640 00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:08,879 Speaker 1: going to listen to whatever the fucking platoon sergeant says 641 00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:11,239 Speaker 1: because they've been doing their job a lot long. Yeah. Yeah, Yeah, 642 00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:13,959 Speaker 1: you're a fool and you're arrogant if you don't write, 643 00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:16,840 Speaker 1: and that arrogance will find you out in a difficult 644 00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:19,520 Speaker 1: situation pretty quickly. So yeah, I think it's important to 645 00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:22,160 Speaker 1: look to look at those anarchists militaries, right, and then 646 00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:24,040 Speaker 1: there are lots and lots of accounts of the of 647 00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:27,279 Speaker 1: the anarchists and the Spanish Civil War. Julian Casanova's book 648 00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:28,759 Speaker 1: is It is one of my favorites that people want 649 00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:31,360 Speaker 1: to read one and married book Jinn of course has 650 00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:34,960 Speaker 1: written the Spanish Anarchists as well. So there are a 651 00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:37,360 Speaker 1: lot of books you can read about and some of 652 00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:39,319 Speaker 1: them micro case studies are really fun, right if you 653 00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:40,920 Speaker 1: want to look at like what is it like to 654 00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:45,320 Speaker 1: live on an anarchist farm in nineteen thirty six in 655 00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:49,160 Speaker 1: rural Catalonian Yale or something like that, like, and I 656 00:34:49,200 --> 00:34:51,640 Speaker 1: would encourage people to read them with an open mind, 657 00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:53,879 Speaker 1: and I understand that like the world was different than 658 00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:57,000 Speaker 1: than it is today, But to look at those historical 659 00:34:57,040 --> 00:35:01,080 Speaker 1: examples and realize that like what people were doing them 660 00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:03,040 Speaker 1: was fundamentally the same. Right. They were trying to take 661 00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:04,680 Speaker 1: care of each other and make the world better for 662 00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:07,239 Speaker 1: their children, and they didn't want the boot on their neck, 663 00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:09,440 Speaker 1: and they were all prepared to work together to do that, 664 00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:13,080 Speaker 1: and that that was an extremely functional way. And what 665 00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:18,160 Speaker 1: didn't work for them was being controlled by people from 666 00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:20,640 Speaker 1: the Soviet Union who maybe didn't understand their struggle because 667 00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:23,440 Speaker 1: they often volt it wasn't worth fighting anymore. And that's 668 00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:25,440 Speaker 1: true for communists to actually right, Like if you look 669 00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:28,319 Speaker 1: at the American communists who went and fought, and they 670 00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:31,920 Speaker 1: were overwhelmingly Communists who went and fought for the for 671 00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:35,480 Speaker 1: the International Brigades. The International Brigades were not the Republic's 672 00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:38,839 Speaker 1: army per se, they were the comm Interns army. And 673 00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:41,320 Speaker 1: if there is one group of people who was hated 674 00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:44,000 Speaker 1: more than anyone else, it was Commissars right, these people 675 00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:45,840 Speaker 1: who were sort of there to enforce his very strict 676 00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:51,080 Speaker 1: interpretation of what they saw as Marxist Leninism. So even 677 00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:53,120 Speaker 1: those people right who were communists might have had a 678 00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:56,719 Speaker 1: more slightly more libertarian understanding, didn't really take their well 679 00:35:56,760 --> 00:36:00,280 Speaker 1: to being bossed around and lost a lot of theirs 680 00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:04,000 Speaker 1: what they were fighting for because of that. Right, Cecil 681 00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:06,520 Speaker 1: LB's book is another really good book about that. If 682 00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:09,160 Speaker 1: you want to read that, well, I think that's going 683 00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:12,000 Speaker 1: to bring us to an end. Here, James, you have 684 00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:14,080 Speaker 1: a book about the Spanish Civil War that you should 685 00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:16,839 Speaker 1: probably plug here. Yeah. Yeah. It's called The Popular Front 686 00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:21,279 Speaker 1: and the Learner Olympics. It's about the anti for Olympics 687 00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:24,960 Speaker 1: that were held as an alternative to the Barcelona Olympic. 688 00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:28,919 Speaker 1: Tics explains how the Popular Front used sport to build 689 00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:32,240 Speaker 1: an anti fascist identity in Catalonia, and it used sport 690 00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:34,759 Speaker 1: to bring together anti fascists from around the world. The 691 00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:38,040 Speaker 1: Popular Olympics actually happened on the nineteenth of July, which 692 00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:39,560 Speaker 1: is the same day to civil war startists, and it 693 00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:41,520 Speaker 1: never they never occurred, but many of the people who 694 00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:44,640 Speaker 1: went to take part in the Olympics decided to stay 695 00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:48,000 Speaker 1: and fight. And so that's what my books about. It's 696 00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:50,200 Speaker 1: quite expensive, and you can I understand the people can't 697 00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:53,640 Speaker 1: afford it. That's fine. I keep saying I'm working on 698 00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:57,239 Speaker 1: another book, but I'm not working very hard or very fast. Yeah, yeah, 699 00:36:57,280 --> 00:36:59,920 Speaker 1: look it up, and someone's probably bootlegged it. Actually, the 700 00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:04,440 Speaker 1: book is often free at universities and other libraries, so 701 00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:05,839 Speaker 1: you have to go to your library and I'll see 702 00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:08,560 Speaker 1: I'm to get it. And uh where else can people 703 00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:13,120 Speaker 1: find you? On the internet at James Stout on Twitter, 704 00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:16,760 Speaker 1: same thing on Patreon. Those are my two main things. 705 00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:19,400 Speaker 1: You can find my writing a muck rack to google 706 00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:24,520 Speaker 1: my name. Yeah, and again help us, Daniel, please bleep 707 00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:27,400 Speaker 1: that out for the sake of James immigration cases. And 708 00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:34,919 Speaker 1: uh yeah, that's good. That's that's an episode. It Could 709 00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:37,279 Speaker 1: Happen Here as a production of cool Zone Media. For 710 00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:40,120 Speaker 1: more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool 711 00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:42,160 Speaker 1: zone media dot com, or check us out on the 712 00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:44,879 Speaker 1: I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen 713 00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:47,839 Speaker 1: to podcasts. You can find sources for It Could Happen Here, 714 00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:51,360 Speaker 1: updated monthly at cool zone media dot com slash sources. 715 00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:52,400 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.