1 00:00:01,080 --> 00:00:04,040 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you missed in History class from how 2 00:00:04,080 --> 00:00:13,840 Speaker 1: Stuff Works dot Com. Hello, and welcome to our podcast 3 00:00:13,920 --> 00:00:18,880 Speaker 1: kind Tracy B. Wilson. Uh And when people talk about 4 00:00:18,880 --> 00:00:22,119 Speaker 1: this subject of today's podcast, he's also described as a 5 00:00:22,160 --> 00:00:25,880 Speaker 1: genius but also uh, something of a rather caustic figure. 6 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:29,920 Speaker 1: And while he had insights that even today thinking about 7 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:34,280 Speaker 1: sort of how he came to his conclusions their downright baffling. 8 00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:37,479 Speaker 1: But he also had a reputation for being pretty arrogant 9 00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:40,199 Speaker 1: and rubbing his colleagues the wrong way, which is commonly 10 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:44,040 Speaker 1: cited as having been pretty detrimental to his career. And 11 00:00:44,120 --> 00:00:47,279 Speaker 1: this sort of his proper place in astrophysics history. So 12 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:49,720 Speaker 1: we're going to talk today about the father of dark matter, 13 00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:55,040 Speaker 1: who was Dr Fritz Wicky. I'm actually kind of amazed 14 00:00:55,120 --> 00:00:59,000 Speaker 1: that I did not realize how early he was working, 15 00:01:00,320 --> 00:01:04,080 Speaker 1: right somehow, Yeah, somehow I thought dark matter was much 16 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:08,480 Speaker 1: more recent than this. Well, the big confirmation was much 17 00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:10,679 Speaker 1: more recent. We talk about a little bit, but he 18 00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:14,319 Speaker 1: was onto it way before anybody else was, right, So 19 00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:16,480 Speaker 1: to go ahead and start blowing your mind right from 20 00:01:16,520 --> 00:01:22,880 Speaker 1: the beginning. Fritz was born in Varna, Bulgaria, on February 21 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:25,360 Speaker 1: eight His father was a Swiss merchant and his mother 22 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:30,040 Speaker 1: was Czechoslovakian, and when he was just six, his father, 23 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:33,600 Speaker 1: thinking that he would surely go into the family business. Uh. 24 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:36,600 Speaker 1: He was sent to live with his grandparents in Glaris, Switzerland, 25 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:39,760 Speaker 1: and the plan was that he would study commerce while 26 00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:42,600 Speaker 1: he was there and learn about business. But he did 27 00:01:42,640 --> 00:01:44,720 Speaker 1: have a head for numbers, but it turned out that 28 00:01:44,720 --> 00:01:47,400 Speaker 1: that interest fell into the areas of physics and non 29 00:01:47,440 --> 00:01:51,120 Speaker 1: financial mathematics are really not similar at all in their path. 30 00:01:53,640 --> 00:01:57,240 Speaker 1: In nineteen sixteen, he enrolled in Einstein's alma mater, the 31 00:01:57,360 --> 00:02:03,120 Speaker 1: Zurich Polytechnic Institute, to study for six and in five 32 00:02:03,320 --> 00:02:06,720 Speaker 1: after he had graduated. Uh. And he's said to have been, 33 00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:09,720 Speaker 1: you know, very adoring of his his professors that he 34 00:02:09,760 --> 00:02:13,200 Speaker 1: thought were genius is Uh. He ended up getting a 35 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:17,280 Speaker 1: grant of an international fellowship from the Rockefeller Foundation and 36 00:02:17,320 --> 00:02:20,040 Speaker 1: he used the money to travel to California so he 37 00:02:20,080 --> 00:02:23,440 Speaker 1: could work for Robert Milliken as first and assistant professor 38 00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:26,600 Speaker 1: and then a professor of theoretical physics at the California 39 00:02:26,639 --> 00:02:29,880 Speaker 1: Institute of Technology, which you would know as cal Tech. Uh. 40 00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:33,240 Speaker 1: It's in Pasadena, California. And at this point some of 41 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:36,880 Speaker 1: the most exciting astronomical discoveries of the modern age were 42 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:39,200 Speaker 1: happening at cal Tech. The nineteen twenties were just a 43 00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:42,640 Speaker 1: huge time for them. So, for example, through the lenses 44 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:46,440 Speaker 1: of the Hooker Telescope, Edwin Hubble was making important observations 45 00:02:46,480 --> 00:02:49,320 Speaker 1: about the vast array of galaxies and space in the 46 00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:53,600 Speaker 1: expanding universe. And through a couple of large grants, including 47 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:57,440 Speaker 1: one from the Rockefeller Foundation, cal Tech was building, you know, 48 00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:01,360 Speaker 1: really advanced instruments and basically developing facilities to remain on 49 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:06,240 Speaker 1: the front line of research in astronomy. So he had 50 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:09,239 Speaker 1: gone to what really seemed like a mecca for astronomers. 51 00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:13,680 Speaker 1: But Fritz was a physicist. Uh, the two worlds do 52 00:03:13,840 --> 00:03:17,160 Speaker 1: have a lot of crossover, though, and he was excited 53 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:19,960 Speaker 1: by both of the disciplines, and so he thought that 54 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:23,320 Speaker 1: the only course for him was to teach both courses, 55 00:03:23,639 --> 00:03:27,079 Speaker 1: and that's how he became the first astrophysicist at cal Tech. 56 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:30,440 Speaker 1: And while he was at cal Tech, he also met 57 00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:33,720 Speaker 1: a man named Walter Bada who was a German American 58 00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:37,840 Speaker 1: observational astronomer, and the two began collaborating, and some of 59 00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:41,440 Speaker 1: that collaboration would become very important. Fritz Wicky came up 60 00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:45,720 Speaker 1: with many many theories about astrophysics during his career. His 61 00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:50,720 Speaker 1: research and his theories were both just incredibly advanced. So, 62 00:03:50,800 --> 00:03:54,400 Speaker 1: for example, Uh, in ninety three's Wicky put forth his 63 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:57,320 Speaker 1: theory that there is in fact a huge amount of 64 00:03:57,440 --> 00:04:00,720 Speaker 1: unseen matter in any given galaxy. This is a completely 65 00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:03,000 Speaker 1: new idea. Everyone thought that what you could see were 66 00:04:03,040 --> 00:04:06,040 Speaker 1: the stars and that that's what was out there. Uh. 67 00:04:06,080 --> 00:04:08,560 Speaker 1: But this idea was based on his observations of the 68 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:12,280 Speaker 1: Coma galaxy cluster, and based on the visible matter that 69 00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 1: was in the cluster and how it was behaving. He 70 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:18,520 Speaker 1: concluded that there simply was not enough of it if 71 00:04:18,560 --> 00:04:23,880 Speaker 1: we only counted the visible pieces to provide enough gravity 72 00:04:23,920 --> 00:04:26,680 Speaker 1: to keep these fast moving galaxies together, and that there 73 00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:29,680 Speaker 1: had to be something else in the mix producing enough 74 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:34,040 Speaker 1: gravity that kept this cluster from flinging apart. That invisible 75 00:04:34,080 --> 00:04:36,920 Speaker 1: substance was what he called dark matter, and he published 76 00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:41,760 Speaker 1: this theory in Helvitica Physica Acta. In his own words, quote, 77 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:44,479 Speaker 1: in order to receive an average Doppler effect of a 78 00:04:44,560 --> 00:04:47,880 Speaker 1: thousand kilometers the second or more, which is what we 79 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:51,840 Speaker 1: have observed, the average density in the Comma system would 80 00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:55,000 Speaker 1: have to be at least four hundred times greater than 81 00:04:55,040 --> 00:04:58,760 Speaker 1: that of visible matter. If this can be shown to 82 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:01,599 Speaker 1: be the case, then it would have the surprising result 83 00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:05,039 Speaker 1: that dark matter is present in the universe and far 84 00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:12,680 Speaker 1: greater density than visible matter. I feel compelled to say again, yeah, 85 00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:16,279 Speaker 1: this is he was. He was drawing these conclusions away 86 00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:19,520 Speaker 1: before anybody else was thinking about them. It's possibly because 87 00:05:19,560 --> 00:05:24,240 Speaker 1: I didn't really learn about dark matter until studying astronomy 88 00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:28,320 Speaker 1: in college that in my brain this was a much 89 00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:32,040 Speaker 1: more recent theory than it really was. Well, there are 90 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:33,880 Speaker 1: also some other reasons, which is that a lot of 91 00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:36,400 Speaker 1: people dismissed him as kind of cockamami. And we'll get 92 00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:40,240 Speaker 1: to why as we go on. Uh. But in addition 93 00:05:40,279 --> 00:05:42,320 Speaker 1: to this work on dark matter, and building on the 94 00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:47,600 Speaker 1: work of Indian physicist Subrahmayan Shandrasakar, who later became famous 95 00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:51,800 Speaker 1: for his mathematical work related to black holes, Zwiki and Bada, 96 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:55,560 Speaker 1: working together, described a neutron star. So this is a 97 00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:59,200 Speaker 1: collapsed core of a star with an incredibly dense mass. 98 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:02,800 Speaker 1: For sample, According to the National Geographic Online entry on 99 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:07,039 Speaker 1: neutron stars, a sugar cube sized chunk of neutron star 100 00:06:07,680 --> 00:06:11,440 Speaker 1: is estimated to weigh roughly one million tons here on 101 00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:15,800 Speaker 1: planet Earth, so that's how dense it is. For scientific context, 102 00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:19,240 Speaker 1: the neutron had only been discovered a year prior, so 103 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:22,720 Speaker 1: quick review just in case you need it. Positively charged 104 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:26,599 Speaker 1: protons and neutral neutron neutrons make up the nucleus of 105 00:06:26,640 --> 00:06:30,960 Speaker 1: an atom, while negatively charged electrons form an orbital cloud 106 00:06:31,040 --> 00:06:35,279 Speaker 1: around the nucleus. Yes, so we only knew what neutrons 107 00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:39,240 Speaker 1: were for a little while before Zwicky was to what 108 00:06:39,440 --> 00:06:43,400 Speaker 1: his colleagues felt like jumping to the conclusion that neutron 109 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:47,440 Speaker 1: stars were, in fact, you know, sort of a larger 110 00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:49,520 Speaker 1: scale version of some of the things they had witnessed 111 00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:52,880 Speaker 1: at the atomic scale. But really he was just intuiting 112 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:56,200 Speaker 1: some pretty impressive things, uh. And he proposed that as 113 00:06:56,200 --> 00:06:59,719 Speaker 1: a star burns out its fuel, it's gravity is so 114 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:03,520 Speaker 1: right that it causes a compression of such magnitude at 115 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:06,719 Speaker 1: the core that protons and electrons are crushed together to 116 00:07:06,839 --> 00:07:10,160 Speaker 1: form neutrons. So if you think about particle physics, it's 117 00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:13,680 Speaker 1: very similar, just on a much bigger scale. It's also 118 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:15,920 Speaker 1: set the groundwork for his Wicki and Bada's description of 119 00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:19,840 Speaker 1: a supernova as a star core implodes, that propels this 120 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:25,800 Speaker 1: massive explosion of the stars outer layers. Such explosions, they theorized, 121 00:07:25,880 --> 00:07:29,400 Speaker 1: were also sources of cosmic rays, or high energy sub 122 00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:33,080 Speaker 1: atomic particles that travel through space at a velocity that 123 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:37,080 Speaker 1: approaches the speed of light. Yeah, cosmic rays had been 124 00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 1: observed before, but no one knew where they came from, 125 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:41,800 Speaker 1: and Swiki and Boada felt like this was where they 126 00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:45,320 Speaker 1: came from. The pair first presented these theories at a 127 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:50,800 Speaker 1: conference of other scientists UH in three and as subsequently 128 00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:53,600 Speaker 1: they published them as a paper in ninety four, and 129 00:07:53,680 --> 00:07:58,320 Speaker 1: that paper about neutron stars, cosmic rays, UH and supernova 130 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:02,040 Speaker 1: has really been described as press and incredibly important to 131 00:08:02,080 --> 00:08:06,480 Speaker 1: both physics and astronomy. In the mid nineteen thirties, certain 132 00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:10,120 Speaker 1: that supernovas and other galaxies were something that we could observe, 133 00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:14,600 Speaker 1: Zwicki convinced the director of the Mount Wilson Observatory to 134 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:17,720 Speaker 1: build a special telescope with a wide field of view 135 00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:21,360 Speaker 1: so that he could observe and photograph multiple galaxies at 136 00:08:21,400 --> 00:08:25,920 Speaker 1: the same time. That telescope enabled him to identify twelve 137 00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:29,960 Speaker 1: supernovas over the course of three years and That work 138 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:32,559 Speaker 1: also gave him really firm ground to stand on when 139 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:35,400 Speaker 1: he went back and asked for an even bigger Schmidt telescope, 140 00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:38,840 Speaker 1: and that request was granted. Uh The forty eight into 141 00:08:38,880 --> 00:08:42,640 Speaker 1: telescope that was built after this second request was installed 142 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:46,160 Speaker 1: at Mount Palomar, and surveys of the northern sky conducted 143 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:49,480 Speaker 1: with it laid the groundwork for decades of astronomical study. 144 00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:55,240 Speaker 1: As thetes stretched on, Zwicky developed a theory of gravitational lenses, 145 00:08:55,280 --> 00:08:58,960 Speaker 1: and it was based on Einstein's theory of general relativity. 146 00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:01,600 Speaker 1: This theory was that you had a galaxy in your 147 00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:05,280 Speaker 1: line of sight, that galaxy could distort the image of 148 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:09,920 Speaker 1: more distant galaxies by bending their starlight. He asserted that 149 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:13,720 Speaker 1: by measuring the distortion that a galaxy caused could then 150 00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:18,560 Speaker 1: give astronomers a sense of the weight of the lensing galaxy. Yeah, 151 00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:21,120 Speaker 1: which is again, this is in the thirties. This was 152 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:24,680 Speaker 1: a lot of extremely um It almost seems like a 153 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:27,280 Speaker 1: leap of faith to people that that might not understand 154 00:09:27,360 --> 00:09:30,800 Speaker 1: his line of logic well. And the idea that the 155 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:34,000 Speaker 1: gravity of something could distort the light of something behind 156 00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:36,640 Speaker 1: it is now kind of taken for granted. In the 157 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:40,000 Speaker 1: in the field. I mean, it had been discussed to 158 00:09:40,120 --> 00:09:42,440 Speaker 1: some degree prior to that, but he was the first 159 00:09:42,440 --> 00:09:44,200 Speaker 1: one that was like, no, this is happening on a 160 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:49,080 Speaker 1: mammoth scale. It's affecting everything we observe. Uh. And while 161 00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:52,920 Speaker 1: giving the Oxford University Halley Lecture in ninety eight, which 162 00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:55,520 Speaker 1: is an annual lecture that is quite an honor to give, 163 00:09:56,160 --> 00:09:59,240 Speaker 1: Zwicky spoke at length about what he called morphology, which 164 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:02,000 Speaker 1: is a systematic approach to studying the structure and form 165 00:10:02,080 --> 00:10:06,880 Speaker 1: of scientific and technological topics by analyzing all possible parameters 166 00:10:06,880 --> 00:10:10,400 Speaker 1: and solutions to any given related question. And this is 167 00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:13,520 Speaker 1: one of those things that he really felt like he 168 00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:15,960 Speaker 1: had been doing all of his life, even before he 169 00:10:16,200 --> 00:10:19,240 Speaker 1: had a name for it. Uh. And he was founder 170 00:10:19,240 --> 00:10:22,680 Speaker 1: and president of the Society for Morphological Research, and in 171 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:25,920 Speaker 1: later life he wrote of morphology quote, I feel that 172 00:10:25,960 --> 00:10:28,840 Speaker 1: I have finally found the philosopher's stone in what I 173 00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:32,560 Speaker 1: call the morphological outlook and method. So he basically was 174 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:34,880 Speaker 1: trying to explain, like, I know what I'm doing, I've 175 00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:36,920 Speaker 1: always been doing it. This is why I'm able to 176 00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:39,560 Speaker 1: come to conclusions that other people don't see. I'm just 177 00:10:39,640 --> 00:10:43,760 Speaker 1: so systematic and how I approach every possible issue that 178 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:45,800 Speaker 1: I look at that I'm going to eventually hit on 179 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:49,959 Speaker 1: the right thing. Uh. It's an interesting approach and it 180 00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:52,920 Speaker 1: is it's very methodical. It makes a lot of sense 181 00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:55,320 Speaker 1: when you read about it. It It kind of forming this 182 00:10:55,480 --> 00:10:59,920 Speaker 1: matrix of possible outcomes and options for every possible variable 183 00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:03,560 Speaker 1: in a situation. It's a lot of work, but it 184 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:06,560 Speaker 1: also does sort of create this beautiful order and structure 185 00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:10,640 Speaker 1: to what may have been completely incomprehensible before. Before we 186 00:11:10,679 --> 00:11:13,280 Speaker 1: get to sort of the problems with all of these 187 00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:18,480 Speaker 1: amazing theories he had being accepted by his peers. Do 188 00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:21,640 Speaker 1: you want to take a quick word from a sponsor. So, 189 00:11:22,520 --> 00:11:27,040 Speaker 1: despite his incredibly advanced insights into astrophysics, many of the 190 00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:30,240 Speaker 1: assertions that Zwicky made in his career really just hit 191 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:34,080 Speaker 1: a brick wall with his colleagues. He had this incredible 192 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:39,960 Speaker 1: neck for finding conflict with the scientific community, and um, 193 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:43,439 Speaker 1: this basically is really attributed to his personality rather than 194 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:46,040 Speaker 1: his ideas. Even though his ideas were very advanced and 195 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:49,880 Speaker 1: hard for people to deal with, his way of presenting 196 00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:52,559 Speaker 1: them and sort of dismissing people that didn't get them 197 00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:56,800 Speaker 1: is really why he probably had so many problems kind 198 00:11:56,800 --> 00:12:01,560 Speaker 1: of gaining ground with um with his work. Okay, almost 199 00:12:01,679 --> 00:12:05,280 Speaker 1: any and every synonym for person kitty has been used 200 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:08,760 Speaker 1: to describe Wiki at some point in time. He's often 201 00:12:08,840 --> 00:12:13,080 Speaker 1: characterized as being just incredibly arrogant and dismissive of other people. 202 00:12:13,559 --> 00:12:17,199 Speaker 1: And he even fought with Boda, who was his real collaborator. 203 00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:22,720 Speaker 1: According to astronomer and Bruce medallist Jesse Greenstein's Wicky called 204 00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:26,360 Speaker 1: Bota a Nazi at one point during World War Two, 205 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:31,320 Speaker 1: and Bota was infuriated but also afraid of Wicky. Yeah, 206 00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:34,440 Speaker 1: apparently from that point on, having the two men in 207 00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:36,920 Speaker 1: a room together was not really a viable option ever, 208 00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:39,920 Speaker 1: because they would not just bicker, but it would become 209 00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:43,480 Speaker 1: extremely heated and very very passionate and angry in a hurry. 210 00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:48,360 Speaker 1: While there are many many instances of people saying that 211 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:50,520 Speaker 1: Wiki could be a pill, and that is a very 212 00:12:50,559 --> 00:12:54,439 Speaker 1: gentle way to put it, his own feelings about others 213 00:12:54,520 --> 00:12:57,560 Speaker 1: in his field are made incredibly clear in his own writing. 214 00:12:57,960 --> 00:13:00,880 Speaker 1: It's not a case of like these people are all 215 00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:04,760 Speaker 1: saying he was crabby. He It's it's in writing he was. 216 00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:08,319 Speaker 1: He said some pretty unkind things Uh, the introduction to 217 00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:12,959 Speaker 1: his catalog of selected compact galaxies and of post eruptive Galaxies, 218 00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:16,920 Speaker 1: which came out in nineteen seventy one, is basically full 219 00:13:17,160 --> 00:13:20,120 Speaker 1: of criticism of his peers, and he calls them out 220 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:25,520 Speaker 1: by name. It's really really bitter in its tone, and 221 00:13:25,559 --> 00:13:28,200 Speaker 1: it's full of all kinds of snark like quote again 222 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:32,760 Speaker 1: and again, scientists and technical specialists arrive at stagnation points 223 00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:36,439 Speaker 1: where they think they know it all, and he did 224 00:13:36,520 --> 00:13:40,800 Speaker 1: underline that in the text. Another was the naivety of 225 00:13:40,880 --> 00:13:44,120 Speaker 1: some of the theoreticians at all times is really appalling. 226 00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:49,320 Speaker 1: Another is, the most renowned observational astronomers in the nineteen 227 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:52,200 Speaker 1: thirties also made claims that now have been proved to 228 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:57,600 Speaker 1: be completely erroneous. This reshearted real progress in astronomy by 229 00:13:57,679 --> 00:14:00,960 Speaker 1: several decades since the said observer has had a monopoly 230 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:03,160 Speaker 1: on the use of the large reflectors of the Mount 231 00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:07,320 Speaker 1: Wilson and Palmer observatories, and inasmuch as they kept out 232 00:14:07,400 --> 00:14:13,400 Speaker 1: all dissenters and then Uh, this gym. Today's sycophants and 233 00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:16,840 Speaker 1: plain thieves seem to be free in American astronomy, in 234 00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:21,600 Speaker 1: particular to appropriate discoveries and inventions made by lone wolves 235 00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:25,080 Speaker 1: and nonconformists, for whom there is never any appeal to 236 00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:28,000 Speaker 1: the hierarchies, and for whom even the public press is 237 00:14:28,040 --> 00:14:33,040 Speaker 1: closed because of censoring committees within the scientific institutions. He 238 00:14:33,160 --> 00:14:36,360 Speaker 1: makes it a point to clarify that he's the only 239 00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:40,880 Speaker 1: person to have clearly stated what a galaxy is, refers 240 00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:44,800 Speaker 1: to some scientists at Scatter Brains, and even calls out Hubble, 241 00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:49,320 Speaker 1: Body and contemporary Henry Norris Russell and others with very 242 00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:53,720 Speaker 1: specific criticisms of the ways their incorrect assertions set back 243 00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:57,720 Speaker 1: the study of astrophysics. Yeah, he really does not hold back. 244 00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:02,000 Speaker 1: It's it's very clear that at that late point in 245 00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:04,600 Speaker 1: his life, he was in his seventies at the time, 246 00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:07,000 Speaker 1: he was still just super angry at how he had 247 00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:11,480 Speaker 1: been treated. Uh, And it's kind of funny. He includes 248 00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:14,920 Speaker 1: in the text of this introduction a letter which was 249 00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:18,680 Speaker 1: written by Edwin Hubble to the Scientific Monthly, which had 250 00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:22,400 Speaker 1: run a piece about some of the work that Zwicky 251 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:26,000 Speaker 1: and Bada had done together, and in it, Hubble points 252 00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:28,480 Speaker 1: out to the publication that an error that they made 253 00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:33,040 Speaker 1: about attributing to Dwarf Nebula to Bada instead of Wicky 254 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:36,440 Speaker 1: and Fritz, you know, includes all of this and his 255 00:15:36,520 --> 00:15:40,520 Speaker 1: thing about this Edward Edwin Hubble trying to correct this error, 256 00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:42,800 Speaker 1: and then he points out that in his opinion, this 257 00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:45,760 Speaker 1: is a completely rare instance of gentlemanly behavior in the 258 00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:48,280 Speaker 1: field of astronomy, and that he's sort of it's the 259 00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:51,560 Speaker 1: exception rather than the rule in his opinion. With all 260 00:15:51,640 --> 00:15:54,520 Speaker 1: this in mind, it just becomes really easy to dismiss 261 00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:57,840 Speaker 1: this guy as a cranky curmudgeon when reading this rather 262 00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:01,920 Speaker 1: infamous introduction. But it's also clear that his bitterness and 263 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:05,440 Speaker 1: anger came from years of having his work dismissed, even 264 00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:08,680 Speaker 1: when the same work was clearly being verified and even 265 00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:13,040 Speaker 1: used by other researchers. Yeah, I can see where you 266 00:16:13,040 --> 00:16:16,680 Speaker 1: would land at this sort of very crabby mindset. You know, 267 00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:18,720 Speaker 1: if you're saying, hey, I think this thing is happening, 268 00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:20,840 Speaker 1: and people go, oh, you are a crazy idiot, and 269 00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:22,800 Speaker 1: they're scribbling the notes down and then using them in 270 00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:27,480 Speaker 1: their own work. Belled crazy idiot is no fun. I 271 00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:30,840 Speaker 1: would be bitter as well, I think. And as it 272 00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:34,360 Speaker 1: turns out, most of Swiki's predictions and theories, which he 273 00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:37,600 Speaker 1: arrived at through what he called directed intuition, which is 274 00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:42,200 Speaker 1: kind of part of that bigger morphology idea. We're absolutely correct. 275 00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:47,520 Speaker 1: While the theoretical existence of neutron stars was validated by 276 00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:51,720 Speaker 1: UH work in nuclear physics before then, the first neutron 277 00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:55,520 Speaker 1: stars were actually identified in Swiki's lifetime in the nineteen sixties. 278 00:16:55,960 --> 00:16:59,840 Speaker 1: He died suddenly on February eighth, nine four at the 279 00:16:59,840 --> 00:17:03,480 Speaker 1: age of seventy five. But during the nineteen seventies and beyond, 280 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:07,240 Speaker 1: astronomers were conducting research and making discoveries that continued to 281 00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:10,560 Speaker 1: validate what he had been saying during his life. In 282 00:17:10,600 --> 00:17:14,240 Speaker 1: the nineteen seventies, Vera Reuben, W. K Ford and other 283 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:17,680 Speaker 1: astronomers were able to verify the idea of dark matter. 284 00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:20,600 Speaker 1: That is why you think of it as being a 285 00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:25,160 Speaker 1: much later discovery. Vera Reuben is mostly associated with dark 286 00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:29,080 Speaker 1: matter UH, and it really was in the seventies, kind 287 00:17:29,080 --> 00:17:32,879 Speaker 1: of like the big announcement was always attributed to these people. 288 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:35,320 Speaker 1: So I think that's probably why you think it is 289 00:17:35,359 --> 00:17:37,760 Speaker 1: a more recent thing than it was. And then in 290 00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:41,560 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy nine, so five years after WIKI had passed 291 00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:46,320 Speaker 1: the first gravitational lens UH and and proof that it 292 00:17:46,359 --> 00:17:50,040 Speaker 1: was actually working the way he had described was discovered, 293 00:17:50,359 --> 00:17:54,000 Speaker 1: and uh, the lensing effects. The lensing effect as Weiki 294 00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:57,879 Speaker 1: described it in ninety seven is actually now applied to 295 00:17:58,080 --> 00:18:01,320 Speaker 1: measure the universe and its contents with regularity. They're sort 296 00:18:01,359 --> 00:18:05,280 Speaker 1: of always exploring the parameters of the universe using uh, 297 00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:09,199 Speaker 1: the very concepts of gravitational lens that he set forth 298 00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:13,840 Speaker 1: in the late thirties. Fritz Wicky's youngest daughter, Barbarina, has 299 00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:19,920 Speaker 1: become his advocate. She's really tirelessly written letters to science publications, bloggers, journals, 300 00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:23,240 Speaker 1: and news outlets, pointing out that her father was very 301 00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:26,719 Speaker 1: far ahead of his his peers in space research and 302 00:18:26,760 --> 00:18:30,080 Speaker 1: in his theories. Yeah, she really wants to ensure that 303 00:18:30,119 --> 00:18:33,240 Speaker 1: he gets his due in the historical record. And to 304 00:18:33,359 --> 00:18:37,040 Speaker 1: one magazine she wrote, quote, Fritz Wicky revealed a genesis 305 00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:41,479 Speaker 1: of astounding cosmological achievements that still illuminate the scientific world. 306 00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:44,879 Speaker 1: He was a scientific prophet and the sacrificial lamb for 307 00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:48,920 Speaker 1: the provincial judgment of his colleagues. His emendation of intellect 308 00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:53,160 Speaker 1: with such apodictic truth and his presages were of such 309 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:57,000 Speaker 1: advance that the standard mind only could falter in their presence. 310 00:18:57,320 --> 00:19:00,800 Speaker 1: And while he definitely had some rough edges. Zwicky also 311 00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:04,480 Speaker 1: had a really generous streak. When World War Two ended, 312 00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:08,920 Speaker 1: he organized the Committee for Aid to War Stricken Scientific Libraries, 313 00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:11,679 Speaker 1: and this group, which consisted of Wicky himself and a 314 00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:17,399 Speaker 1: handful of volunteers, amassed literally tons of scientific literature and 315 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:20,600 Speaker 1: donated it to libraries that had been damaged during the war. 316 00:19:21,520 --> 00:19:25,040 Speaker 1: Zwicky devoted his weekends and spare weekday hours to this 317 00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:30,440 Speaker 1: project for years, and he packaged and shipped the materials himself. Yeah. 318 00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:33,560 Speaker 1: I read one source that said that it was approximated 319 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:36,800 Speaker 1: to be fifteen tons of materials that he had eventually 320 00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:40,720 Speaker 1: shipped over the years, but I couldn't find that validated. Uh. 321 00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:44,000 Speaker 1: And In an obituary article about Zwicky, Albert G. Wilson, 322 00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:48,440 Speaker 1: director of the Society for Morphological Research, wrote, Zwicky's point 323 00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:50,600 Speaker 1: was that there are enough men and women of goodwill 324 00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:53,280 Speaker 1: to make such projects a success if only they are 325 00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:58,040 Speaker 1: pushed with determination. Availability of funds is not a prerequisite. 326 00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:00,960 Speaker 1: He felt that such projects as the book distribution do 327 00:20:01,119 --> 00:20:04,600 Speaker 1: more for establishing ties of confidence between different nations and 328 00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:08,640 Speaker 1: races that can be achieved by speechmaking, legislation, or high 329 00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:13,400 Speaker 1: sounding efforts of international cooperation. He also served as director 330 00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:17,200 Speaker 1: of the American chapter of Pestelasi Foundation, which was founded 331 00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:20,880 Speaker 1: to foster World War Two orphans. And whilst Wiki had 332 00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:25,040 Speaker 1: conflict with his professional peers, the students and staff at 333 00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:27,520 Speaker 1: cal Tech really did see a much more affable side 334 00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:30,040 Speaker 1: of the man, though he could certainly be a demanding 335 00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:33,359 Speaker 1: teacher and mentor. Uh and we have a funny story 336 00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:36,919 Speaker 1: about that. The February nineteen seventy four issue of the 337 00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:41,800 Speaker 1: cal Tech publication Engineering and Science featured an investigation into 338 00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:44,920 Speaker 1: a rumor that students had once managed to pull one 339 00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:49,480 Speaker 1: over on him by creating a fictitious student. According to 340 00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:53,040 Speaker 1: this legend, in the nineteen thirty one ninety two academic year, 341 00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:56,879 Speaker 1: a group of grad students allegedly worked together under the 342 00:20:56,920 --> 00:20:59,840 Speaker 1: false identity of an undergrad and an effort to achieve 343 00:20:59,880 --> 00:21:02,600 Speaker 1: the impossible, which was to make an a in a 344 00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:06,800 Speaker 1: course that's WICKI taught. While the surviving students of that 345 00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:10,440 Speaker 1: year all insisted the story was true, the publication never 346 00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:12,959 Speaker 1: got swicky side of the story due to his sudden 347 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:17,119 Speaker 1: death during the writing of the article. I find that 348 00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:19,160 Speaker 1: to be such a great pity, because I really would 349 00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:21,840 Speaker 1: have loved to have here heard his side of bits. 350 00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:24,440 Speaker 1: I love that they just wanted to like make him 351 00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:29,120 Speaker 1: give someone an a even though he I think never 352 00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:31,720 Speaker 1: intended to do so. I just love that that's a 353 00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:34,480 Speaker 1: fun that somebody tried to trick him or a group 354 00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:36,800 Speaker 1: of people, But it sounds like it was all in 355 00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:39,040 Speaker 1: a very kind of good natured sort of way, which 356 00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:43,000 Speaker 1: I love. Um So. In his lifetime, Fritz Wicky authored 357 00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:47,680 Speaker 1: literally hundreds of articles, numerous books. He held dozens of patents. 358 00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:50,240 Speaker 1: He was awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom for his 359 00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:53,880 Speaker 1: work in rocket propulsion during World War Two. The Royal 360 00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:57,520 Speaker 1: Astronomical Society of Great Britain gave him their society's Gold Medal, 361 00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:01,680 Speaker 1: and he's credited with discovery a hundred and twenty two 362 00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:06,879 Speaker 1: supernovas during his work. That number is a record, yeah, unbroken. 363 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:10,280 Speaker 1: He still holds it. Uh. He is buried in Glara, Switzerland, 364 00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:13,480 Speaker 1: where there is also his wiki museum displaying some of 365 00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:17,879 Speaker 1: his papers and scientific work. There are an asteroid, a 366 00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:22,440 Speaker 1: lunar crater in a galaxy named after him, and kermudgeon 367 00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:26,240 Speaker 1: er No. He was undoubtedly a visionary. He intuited cosmic 368 00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:28,760 Speaker 1: truths that many others in his field simply could not 369 00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:31,960 Speaker 1: grasp at the time he introduced him. He introduced them 370 00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:35,520 Speaker 1: so so to me, such a fascinating figure, and I 371 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:38,320 Speaker 1: just I have a love for him. I like all 372 00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:40,359 Speaker 1: the cranky ones. Those tend to be my favorites for 373 00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:47,600 Speaker 1: some parties. Do you also have some listener mail? It's 374 00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:50,680 Speaker 1: not cranky at all, It's actually interesting and it's something 375 00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:53,000 Speaker 1: we get a lot of. Uh. And it is from 376 00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:55,479 Speaker 1: our listener autumn, And she says, Hello, Holly and Tracy. 377 00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:58,520 Speaker 1: I am a frequent listener of your podcast. I enjoy 378 00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:01,400 Speaker 1: you both his podcast personality, and what I particularly commend 379 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:05,159 Speaker 1: is the evidence of your thorough and reliable research my side, 380 00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:08,040 Speaker 1: we certainly try. Uh. This spring, I would be graduating 381 00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:10,520 Speaker 1: from university with a degree in theater and miners in 382 00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:14,080 Speaker 1: TV Cinema and psychology. With a wide range of hobbies 383 00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:15,960 Speaker 1: and interests. I am still a bit lost on the 384 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:18,560 Speaker 1: career finding area. What I would like to know about, 385 00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:20,680 Speaker 1: if you'd be willing to share, are your journeys, How 386 00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:22,840 Speaker 1: did you come to how stuff works? Where did you begin? 387 00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:25,480 Speaker 1: And what we're slash are the passions that brought you 388 00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:28,760 Speaker 1: to where you are and the people you've become. Uh, 389 00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:30,840 Speaker 1: this is a question we get a lot is kind 390 00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:33,560 Speaker 1: of how we ended up doing this, and for both 391 00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:34,920 Speaker 1: of us, I think the answer is that it was 392 00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:40,879 Speaker 1: quite a circuitous route. UM. I have had a million 393 00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:44,520 Speaker 1: different jobs and multiple careers. I've managed hair salons, I 394 00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:47,640 Speaker 1: UM worked in a library for more than a decade 395 00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:52,639 Speaker 1: as a technical services assistant and UM acquisitions manager for 396 00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:56,959 Speaker 1: lack of a better title. UM. I worked in marketing 397 00:23:57,280 --> 00:24:01,040 Speaker 1: for an online company. I worked as both an admin 398 00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:03,439 Speaker 1: assistant and then a writer at a network for a while, 399 00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:07,919 Speaker 1: and then I ended up here UM and I got 400 00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:11,600 Speaker 1: hired as an editor, and Tracy and I UM started 401 00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:15,440 Speaker 1: podcasting for pop Stuff because one of our bosses heard 402 00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:17,480 Speaker 1: us riffing at a party and thought we should try it. 403 00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:24,240 Speaker 1: That's really that's exactly what happened. As a completely sure yeah, 404 00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:26,040 Speaker 1: at that point, I had already been at How Stuff 405 00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:28,520 Speaker 1: Works for several years. I started at a staff as 406 00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:31,679 Speaker 1: a staff writer in two thousand and five, and I 407 00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:35,720 Speaker 1: guess at that point I was site director and that's 408 00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:39,120 Speaker 1: how we landed here. And then as UM well, Deblina 409 00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:41,560 Speaker 1: was on eternity leave, I came on as a guest 410 00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:45,399 Speaker 1: for history, and then Deblina came back and decided that 411 00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:47,640 Speaker 1: she wanted to make a career move elsewhere, and so 412 00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:50,280 Speaker 1: then I came on with Sarah for a little while, 413 00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:52,399 Speaker 1: and then Sarah also made a career move, and Tracy 414 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:56,000 Speaker 1: joined me here and we sunseted pop stuff. Uh, and 415 00:24:56,040 --> 00:25:00,440 Speaker 1: that's how we ended up on history. That the story. 416 00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:02,440 Speaker 1: So it's not really a course I could plot out 417 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:04,800 Speaker 1: for anyone. No, And we get a lot of questions 418 00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:09,480 Speaker 1: from people that are like, uh, what do you recommend 419 00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:12,280 Speaker 1: as far as getting jobs for history majors? And that 420 00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:15,960 Speaker 1: is a question we super cannot answer because neither we 421 00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:19,200 Speaker 1: nor any other host who has ever hosted this podcast 422 00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:22,879 Speaker 1: has a history degree. Yeah. The one person that I 423 00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:24,879 Speaker 1: know in my life that has a history degree, and 424 00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:28,119 Speaker 1: she actually has a graduate degree in historical studies, is 425 00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:32,800 Speaker 1: a librarian. So that's the one instance I know, but 426 00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:34,439 Speaker 1: I don't know that that path is going to be 427 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:37,440 Speaker 1: for everyone. She also has a graduate degree in library science, 428 00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:42,359 Speaker 1: so uh, yeah, I mean, I think we're kind of 429 00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:45,080 Speaker 1: at a weird I don't know if it's weird, We're 430 00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:48,359 Speaker 1: at a point it's sort of in terms of the 431 00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:51,880 Speaker 1: career world where it's so much different. I think even 432 00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:56,240 Speaker 1: than when Tracy and I went through college, that it's 433 00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:59,800 Speaker 1: a little bit almost tricky to chart a direct path 434 00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:02,840 Speaker 1: to anything, you know, unless you're in like a very 435 00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:08,000 Speaker 1: um kind of established field that follows a pretty set 436 00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:10,560 Speaker 1: course that has not really shifted, particularly with all of 437 00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:12,879 Speaker 1: the economic shifts that have gone on. Like if you know, 438 00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:15,720 Speaker 1: you want to be a veterinarian, and you go through 439 00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:18,040 Speaker 1: college and you get your biology degree and then you 440 00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:20,080 Speaker 1: go to veterinary school and you get your degree in that, 441 00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:22,560 Speaker 1: and that's kind of your natural career path. But there 442 00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:25,520 Speaker 1: aren't many career paths like that anymore, I think, especially 443 00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:27,960 Speaker 1: if you're in like the liberal arts degree area. Well, 444 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:32,639 Speaker 1: even if you're not, like Patrick's degree, his undergraduate and 445 00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:36,000 Speaker 1: first graduate degree are engineering degrees, and he is a 446 00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:39,159 Speaker 1: librarian now with a separate Master of Library Science to 447 00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:44,639 Speaker 1: go with his previous engineering studies. So I think pretty 448 00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:47,679 Speaker 1: much everyone I know has a winding, circuitous route to 449 00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:53,479 Speaker 1: get to where they are now. Yeah, so yeah, it's uh, 450 00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:56,560 Speaker 1: we don't have a direct path. Um. My thing is 451 00:26:56,640 --> 00:26:59,399 Speaker 1: kind of like I think how we both ended up 452 00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:01,840 Speaker 1: in histories of both Tracy and I have always liked 453 00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:04,120 Speaker 1: a lot of aspects of history. We both are readers, 454 00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:07,199 Speaker 1: we both kind of just like learning new things, so 455 00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:10,520 Speaker 1: way before we were ever in any sort of universe 456 00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:13,640 Speaker 1: thinking about a podcast like this, before podcasts even existed, 457 00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:17,160 Speaker 1: we were kind of reading about history all the time anyway. Well, 458 00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:21,840 Speaker 1: and from a completely practical sense, the past hosts were 459 00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:26,800 Speaker 1: leaving and we needed new ones, so it made sense 460 00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:29,040 Speaker 1: because we both do like history that it was a 461 00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:32,480 Speaker 1: pretty natural transition from that point of view. So that's 462 00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:35,399 Speaker 1: the scoop. I'm sorry it's not a direct like, uh, 463 00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:38,440 Speaker 1: here's your next step, But the best thing I could 464 00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:40,600 Speaker 1: say is just to keep studying all the things you 465 00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:44,520 Speaker 1: love and eventually an opportunity will probably present itself to 466 00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:46,440 Speaker 1: put some of that into play as long as you're 467 00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:49,520 Speaker 1: you know, working hard at other things and making your 468 00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:52,879 Speaker 1: way in the world. It's hard for me because I 469 00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:54,960 Speaker 1: do like structures, so I wish that I could tell 470 00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:59,359 Speaker 1: you here's how. Uh, but yeah, just keep learning everything 471 00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:02,560 Speaker 1: you who are interested in learn all the time. Learn 472 00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:05,160 Speaker 1: about things you're not interested in, because sometimes those pay 473 00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:07,439 Speaker 1: off in other ways. Uh. If you would like to 474 00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:10,400 Speaker 1: write to us, probably not for a career advice, because 475 00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:13,560 Speaker 1: we're apparently not great at giving it uh, saying work 476 00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:16,280 Speaker 1: hard and study things that are interesting. Uh. You could 477 00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:18,840 Speaker 1: do so at History podcast at how stuff works dot com. 478 00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:21,280 Speaker 1: You can also connect with us at Facebook dot com 479 00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:24,280 Speaker 1: slash missed in History, on Twitter at misst in history, 480 00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:26,960 Speaker 1: at missed in History dot tumbler dot com, and on 481 00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:30,160 Speaker 1: pinterest dot com slash missed in History. 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If you would 492 00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:02,000 Speaker 1: like to read show notes and burrows about on our 493 00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:03,920 Speaker 1: history topics, you can do that at our site, which 494 00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:10,280 Speaker 1: is missed at history dot com for more on this 495 00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:12,960 Speaker 1: and thousands of other topics because it has stuff works 496 00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:16,440 Speaker 1: dot com. M