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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bloomberg Law Podcast. I'm June Grosso. Every

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Speaker 1: day we bring you insight and analysis into the most

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Speaker 1: important legal news of the day. You can find more

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Speaker 1: episodes of the Bloomberg Law Podcast on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud,

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Speaker 1: and on Bloomberg dot com slash podcasts. President Trump likely

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Speaker 1: suffered through one of the worst days of his presidency yesterday,

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Speaker 1: as he watched his former fixer plead guilty in a

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Speaker 1: New York courtroom and his former campaign chairman become a

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Speaker 1: convicted felon in a Washington court. Speaking in Washington yesterday,

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Speaker 1: President Trump once again called the Mueller investigation a disgrace.

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Speaker 1: I read, I must stud you good pull matter. Courts

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Speaker 1: are good. Man. He was with Ronald Reagan. He was

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Speaker 1: with a lot of different people over the years, and

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Speaker 1: I feel very sad about that. Joining us is Kevin Whitelaw,

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg News Deputy managing editor. He's in our Bloomberg studios

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Speaker 1: in Washington, Kevin. Yesterday, President Trump refrained from commenting on

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Speaker 1: Michael Cohen, but today there are four tweets about the situation,

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Speaker 1: two about Michael Cohen, and too about Manifort. What kind

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Speaker 1: of effect is this going to have on his presidency,

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Speaker 1: big question, but you can well, you know, we're sort

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Speaker 1: of watching yesterday, and I think the double barrel, the

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Speaker 1: timing of of obviously the verdict and the plea where

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Speaker 1: was someone coincidental? But but it's a really important illustration

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Speaker 1: of what has changed in this presidency. For a long time,

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Speaker 1: everyone's been focused on the Muller probe, the Mueller probe,

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Speaker 1: and and and the White House and Trump have spent

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Speaker 1: all of this time now trying to work to undermine

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Speaker 1: it and do all of this. And now there's an

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Speaker 1: entirely separate, independent investigation that has the potential, the potential,

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Speaker 1: i should say, to reach the president on something that

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Speaker 1: has nothing to do with Russia and nothing to do

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Speaker 1: at this point with Robert Mueller. Um, that's a really

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Speaker 1: important thing to understand because it does me that that,

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Speaker 1: you know, you if he, if he Trump somehow manages

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Speaker 1: to kill off or fend off, or or or survive

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Speaker 1: one investigation, there's still another one potentially out there, one

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Speaker 1: that is maybe just getting started. So then how does

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Speaker 1: this play out politically? Well, you know, it does mean

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Speaker 1: that whatever happens is going to last beyond the mid terms. Uh,

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Speaker 1: in a way that I mean, the Muller probe is

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Speaker 1: probably gonna last beyond the mid terms anyway. Now this

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Speaker 1: other one definitely will. So you know, it gives Mueller

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Speaker 1: some cover. Um, it gives Trump something else to have

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Speaker 1: to have to defend against and to to address. And

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Speaker 1: it's so the distraction level is incredible. UM. The potential

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Speaker 1: for other risks. UM, does this lead uh an investigation

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Speaker 1: into Trump's business? Does this um, you know, into Trump organization?

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Speaker 1: Does this go into even more people in his campaign?

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Speaker 1: I mean, we now really have the prospect of three

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Speaker 1: of his top campaign advisors are now either you know,

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Speaker 1: pled guilty or been convicted. You've got uh the You

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Speaker 1: also separately have the two first two House Republicans who

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Speaker 1: who endorsed him have been indicted on unrelated charges. He's

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Speaker 1: really sort of suddenly surrounded by a whole bunch of

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Speaker 1: people who find themselves in significant legal trouble. And so

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Speaker 1: that leaves him, um, increasingly isolated. It leaves it much

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Speaker 1: harder for him to work his way uh in in Washington.

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Speaker 1: If if if this helps the Democrats in the mid terms,

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Speaker 1: maybe it helps give them a strong margin in the House.

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Speaker 1: So suddenly you've got a whole additional level of oversight

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Speaker 1: and subpoenas, investigations and hearings going on from that side.

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Speaker 1: You know, So at some point then the question does

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Speaker 1: become is this does does his presidency become a liability

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Speaker 1: for the Republican Party as they start to look ahead

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Speaker 1: towards that's if you cast it out quite a long ways, Kevin, Um,

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Speaker 1: what influence might it have on policy making? Is he

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Speaker 1: likely to focus more on foreign governments than our country?

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Speaker 1: I mean, just to to take the pressure off here. Well,

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Speaker 1: you know, we certainly have seen that that. Um, he

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Speaker 1: does like to try to find ways to distract when

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Speaker 1: when when he's in trouble, So we could well see

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Speaker 1: elements of distractions still still out there, attempts to distract,

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Speaker 1: whether that's the distract with with rhetoric and um, you

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Speaker 1: know at tax he started off his political rally in

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Speaker 1: West Virginia last night by talking about the NFL and

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Speaker 1: the and people standing or kneeling for the national anthem. Uh,

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Speaker 1: he's got those rays to go to. He could certainly

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Speaker 1: try foreign policy, although that's been that's been been a

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Speaker 1: bit tough. The one thing he started to do a

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Speaker 1: lot of recently is use powers that are his alone, right,

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Speaker 1: things that he can do without needing Congress. So whether

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Speaker 1: it's issuing pardons or slapping tariffs or or or things

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Speaker 1: like that, he has decided. Well, wait a second, there

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Speaker 1: are at least some levels of power that that I

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Speaker 1: have control over, and foreign policy is one of them.

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Speaker 1: Only about a minute here, but Democratic Leader Chuck Schumer,

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Speaker 1: in opening floor remarks today said Senate Judiciary Committee should

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Speaker 1: delay the hearing for Brett Kavanaugh because Trump could face

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Speaker 1: legal matters that will come before the court. Do you

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Speaker 1: think that will have any movement? No? Um, I think

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Speaker 1: of of all the things that have kept Republicans, uh,

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Speaker 1: sort of backing this president through all the different scandals

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Speaker 1: and and distractions and controversies. Um, getting conservative justices on

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Speaker 1: in the judiciary and particularly the Screme Court is the

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Speaker 1: top priority. The everyone's laser focused on the Republican side

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Speaker 1: about doing this. There's no way they're going to let

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Speaker 1: this thing slow down. All right, Thanks so much, Kevin.

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Speaker 1: That's Kevin Whitelaude Bloomberg News Deputy Managing editor. Yesterday, at

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Speaker 1: federal jury convicted Paul Manafort on eight bank and tax

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Speaker 1: fraud charges, raising new questions about whether Trus's President Trump

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Speaker 1: will pardon his former campaign chairman. On Capitol Hill yesterday,

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Speaker 1: Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer discussed Trump's reaction to the news.

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Speaker 1: I understand the President's on his way to a rally.

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Speaker 1: He better not talk about pardons for Michael Cohen or

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Speaker 1: Pearl Manafort tonight or any time in the future, joining

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Speaker 1: us as Brad Moss a partner at Mark zad Well, Brad,

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Speaker 1: let's start with that. When you look at Manafort's actions,

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Speaker 1: has he been acting playing his cards here like he's

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Speaker 1: waiting for a pardon? Well, that's certainly one of two

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Speaker 1: possible avenues, and everybody's kind of assuming is what manaforts

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Speaker 1: looking for, um, the reason of why he wouldn't trying

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Speaker 1: to make a pleat deal, trying to avoid the significant

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Speaker 1: expense at the criminal trial he just went through, which

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Speaker 1: was hugely stacked against them, and you know, not surprisingly,

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Speaker 1: he ultimately lost on eight separate counts in which he

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Speaker 1: was found guilty. There's always assumption that either a he

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Speaker 1: was angling for a pardon and he had some kind

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Speaker 1: of reason or belief that the president would can say

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Speaker 1: to that. The other option, the far more, you know, sinister,

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Speaker 1: one is that he fears uh being of being another

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Speaker 1: accident of you know, having been once connected at the Kremlin,

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Speaker 1: as may all know from history now, and it'd be

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Speaker 1: maybe who used to be tied to it and then

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Speaker 1: goes off and ever talks about what went over by

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Speaker 1: the scenes always seems to find themselves into, you know,

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Speaker 1: various accidents of physical harm. Maybe that's the other thought

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Speaker 1: of where it was going into his head. How important

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Speaker 1: is this verdict in light of the fact that the

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Speaker 1: jury could not come to a decision on more than

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Speaker 1: half of the charges. Sure, I mean, it's still it

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Speaker 1: looks it's still significant. It's still eight different charges on

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Speaker 1: once he was convicted, he's still going, at least the moment,

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Speaker 1: he's said to be in jail for the rest of

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Speaker 1: his natural life. And that doesn't even get in the

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Speaker 1: fact that he's got a whole separate uh second trial

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Speaker 1: coming up in d C in a few weeks that

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Speaker 1: has even more issues. Uh. This was by by no

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Speaker 1: means the victors from palm manaforts. Because it was hung

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Speaker 1: jury on ten of accounts. It's still thinking a good

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Speaker 1: problem for him, and so now he the save request

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Speaker 1: of because you want to try to do another trial

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Speaker 1: because you want to go to that expense. Is there

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Speaker 1: any benefit to it? Or there time for him to

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Speaker 1: finally make a deal with the Muller team and divulge

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Speaker 1: what if anything he's got. If he doesn't have anything

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Speaker 1: of interest or value to the Mueller probe, there's no deal.

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Speaker 1: It's gonna be had, it's gonna be all over the

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Speaker 1: rest of the jailman. He does have something, he says,

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Speaker 1: material information, Now is the time for him to start

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Speaker 1: talking with them. By looking at the counts the jury

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Speaker 1: was able to come to a verdict on and those

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Speaker 1: they weren't. Can you tell what it was that held

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Speaker 1: him up? Was it Gates credibility, was a confusion about

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Speaker 1: the counts, the prosecution's evidence, and so I think it

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Speaker 1: was a bit of a collection of all. So it's definitely,

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Speaker 1: I mean, these this credibilities certainly weighed on some of

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Speaker 1: the problems. They had come into a consensus on some

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Speaker 1: of the bank fraud issues in particular. I mean, oh, look,

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Speaker 1: this was a very complicated white power case with a

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Speaker 1: massive amount of details and nuance, and there was questions

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Speaker 1: for the jury to the judge about the particular details

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Speaker 1: of the statutory provisions on levels of ownership and how

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Speaker 1: the civic corporations working. It's it's difficult for even legal

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Speaker 1: experts in the field to always wrap their head around it.

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Speaker 1: Let alone twelve men and women you know, just picked

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Speaker 1: up for the streets. So it was never going to

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Speaker 1: be an easy case for them to wrap their heads

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Speaker 1: around anyways, but they were able to do it at

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Speaker 1: least efficiently with respect of those accounts. The other ten pounds.

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Speaker 1: We don't know how many holdouts there were. Maybe it

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Speaker 1: was just one person, maybe it was too There was

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Speaker 1: always going to be some confusion, but that's why the

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Speaker 1: government loads up these indictments with multiple different counts to

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Speaker 1: avoid anyone being the deal breather. What about Manafort appealing?

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Speaker 1: He could appeal, but again the question becomes to one end.

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Speaker 1: He's got another case coming up next month. An appeal

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Speaker 1: will take you know, months, if not years, of will

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Speaker 1: cost countless amounts of money. He has nowhere to replenish

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Speaker 1: right now. He's certainly in serious financial strange. He's got

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Speaker 1: a eximent to think about his wife, his kids. You know,

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Speaker 1: you've got to think about their well being from a

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Speaker 1: financial standpoint. Going forward. What becomes the true goal of

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Speaker 1: an appeal at this point other than to hold off

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Speaker 1: the inevitable brad Now, what about the prosecutors? They asked

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Speaker 1: for a week to decide whether to retry Manifort on

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Speaker 1: the charges. The jury could not come to a verdict

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Speaker 1: on what will be at play here. Normally you'd say,

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Speaker 1: what's the point? But is there an effort to put

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Speaker 1: more pressure on Manafort? Um? I think it's something they're

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Speaker 1: gonna weigh into parison with what they've got prepped for

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Speaker 1: the September trial in DC. There's already notice of parents

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Speaker 1: about one of the new prosecutors coming on to run

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Speaker 1: that for the Mullet team. So I think they're gonna

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Speaker 1: look at and say, is there any real reason, is

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Speaker 1: or anything anyone overlaps who was doing DC. Is there

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Speaker 1: any particular need of why would want to try those

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Speaker 1: specicfular ted accounts. I don't expect that they will, um,

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Speaker 1: I think one way or the other, I'm pretty sure

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Speaker 1: we're going to see some manner of a cooperation. The

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Speaker 1: elisimate medical has an I think of value before the

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Speaker 1: September trial even starts. Um otherwise it he'll be going

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Speaker 1: in to help for equivalent of two lifetime It's all

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Speaker 1: over for him. So let me ask you the other

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Speaker 1: about the other case yesterday. Um, in light of this

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Speaker 1: that we've heard about, is the Maniford case more troubling

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Speaker 1: to President Trump? Or is the Cohen case more troubling

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Speaker 1: to President Trump? The Coen case, from at least the

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Speaker 1: immediate standpoint, is far more damaging and significant from a

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Speaker 1: political and a legal standpoint for the president because that one,

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Speaker 1: unlike the Maniform case, directly implicates the president in a crime.

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Speaker 1: It directly indicates that he directed and instructed Michael Cohen

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Speaker 1: to violate campaign finance laws. It's two separate criminal offenses

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Speaker 1: to influence the course of the election. By depriving these

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Speaker 1: two different women of the ability to talk out and

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Speaker 1: spook out and describe what they knew and what are

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Speaker 1: the current pasada Donald Trump, and deprived the voting public

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Speaker 1: of the full amount of information before they went to

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Speaker 1: vote on election day. That is a serious that's gonna

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Speaker 1: cripple him from a political standpoint. It's going to raise

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Speaker 1: a prospect of impeachment going forward if the House and

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Speaker 1: or the Senate flips to the Democrats and it just

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Speaker 1: raises an even greater legal clouds surrounding this White House

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Speaker 1: as they are on multiple different funds trying to hold

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Speaker 1: off the siege of private and government litigation against the

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Speaker 1: president personally. Thanks Brad, that was a great description of

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Speaker 1: what the legal situation is. That's Brad Moss. He's a

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Speaker 1: partner at Mark Say. Michael Cohen's attorney says that Congress

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Speaker 1: should open an investigation into whether President Trump instructed his

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Speaker 1: former lawyer and fix her to commit a crime. Speaking

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Speaker 1: with Bloomberg earlier today, Lannie Davis said, Cohen is willing

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Speaker 1: to cooperate with any authority. Strong evidence. I think it's conclusive,

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Speaker 1: but let's at least agree that it's strong that Donald

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Speaker 1: Trump knew that Michael Cohen was going to be advancing

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Speaker 1: money on his behalf to hush up the relationships with

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Speaker 1: these two women, and that it had a political purpose

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Speaker 1: to it. Joining us as Robert Mints, a partner at

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Speaker 1: McCarter in English, Bob, it's curious this offer of evidence

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Speaker 1: because there are all the evidence. There are thousands and

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Speaker 1: thousands of pieces of evidence that were confiscated from Michael

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Speaker 1: Cohen's home and office, and one would think that prosecutors

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Speaker 1: already had whatever evidence there was. Yes, there are a

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Speaker 1: lot of questions that were raised by the Cone guilty plan.

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Speaker 1: In some ways, it raised more questions than it gave

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Speaker 1: answers to. You're absolutely right that the government seized lots

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Speaker 1: of information from his home, his office, to hotel room

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Speaker 1: he was staying in. They took his computers, and you

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Speaker 1: would think that they would have all that information and

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Speaker 1: have already gone through it. Uh, And they may in

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Speaker 1: fact have done that. It maybe that they concluded that

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Speaker 1: Michael Cohen needed to plead guilty, but that they have

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Speaker 1: information to further their investigations. And what we'll be seeing

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Speaker 1: is behind the scenes, and they'll continue to work on

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Speaker 1: this investigation and we'll find out whether there are any

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Speaker 1: other people who may have been involved in the campaign

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Speaker 1: finance violations that Cohen pled guilty too. Bob, what do

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Speaker 1: you think about Cohen pleading guilty without having a cooperation

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Speaker 1: deal in place. He's still trying to cooperate. Is that unusual? Uh,

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Speaker 1: it is unusual. You would have thought that he would

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Speaker 1: have leveraged the information he had to try to get

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Speaker 1: a cooperation deal, because, as you know, if he doesn't

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Speaker 1: have a co operation deal. He's likely to go to

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Speaker 1: prison I think for just about five years. That was

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Speaker 1: a deal he struck with prosecutors. If he is cooperating,

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Speaker 1: then of course he could ultimately face no jail time

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Speaker 1: at all. All of that depending upon what the judge

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Speaker 1: does at the end of the case. So you would

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Speaker 1: have thought, based upon his public statements and his proximity

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Speaker 1: to the president, both before he was a candidate and

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Speaker 1: after that, he would have had useful information and that

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Speaker 1: the government would have been interested in striking a cooperating deal.

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Speaker 1: But at this point there's nothing to indicate that they

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Speaker 1: have done that. That doesn't mean that that might not

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Speaker 1: change in the future, but at this point, all we

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Speaker 1: know is that Michael con has pled guilty and there

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Speaker 1: doesn't seem to be any cooperation component to that plea deal.

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Speaker 1: And now we come down to the conflicting statements between

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Speaker 1: Trump and Cohen. President Trump telling Fox News that he

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Speaker 1: says he knew later on about these hush money payments,

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Speaker 1: but Cohen said that he made them at the direction

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Speaker 1: of the President, that that that it was done with

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Speaker 1: his with his approval before they were made. So is

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Speaker 1: this going to come down? I mean, if this goes anywhere.

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Speaker 1: Is it going to come down to, you know, the

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Speaker 1: President's word against Cohen's, Well, it can't really come down

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Speaker 1: to that. At the end of the day. I don't

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Speaker 1: think you would see prosecutors moving ahead with a case

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Speaker 1: against anybody based solely upon Michael Cohen uncorroborated testimony, given

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Speaker 1: the fact that he had already gone on record denying

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Speaker 1: that the president had any knowledge at all and that

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Speaker 1: other people had any knowledge. So he's really not a

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Speaker 1: credible witness standing alone. They would need corroborating evidence to

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Speaker 1: move forward. But it's possible, based upon his guilty plea,

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Speaker 1: that there were others involved in the campaign who might

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Speaker 1: have information related to this, And I think we can

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Speaker 1: assume that prosecutors are pursuing those leads in the next

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Speaker 1: few months leading up to the mid term elections, where

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Speaker 1: we will not see any public activity because of the elections.

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Speaker 1: But that doesn't mean prosecutors not continuing this investigation behind

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Speaker 1: the scenes, Bob, Michael Cohen made that astonishing admission in

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Speaker 1: court yesterday. Uh and whenso the lawyer is telling the

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Speaker 1: judge that his client directed him to commit a crime,

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Speaker 1: and he pleads guilty to it. Now, if there was

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Speaker 1: no evidence for that, would prosecutors have been able to

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Speaker 1: stand by and hear him say that and not say

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Speaker 1: something to the judge. Yeah. Typically, the plea elocution, which

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Speaker 1: is what you're referring to, which there are the statements

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Speaker 1: that defendant has to make an open court to admit

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Speaker 1: to the judge that they are in fact guilty of

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Speaker 1: the crime they're pleading guilty to. Those questions have been

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Speaker 1: worked out between the prosecution and the defendant in advance.

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Speaker 1: So this is all choreographed, it's all been negotiated in advance,

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Speaker 1: and there's going to be nothing that Michael Cohen says.

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Speaker 1: I think that prosecutors will not have reviewed and approved

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Speaker 1: of in advance, and they likely would have to have

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Speaker 1: had some type of corroborating information such that they believe

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Speaker 1: that the statements that are being made are in fact true. Okay,

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Speaker 1: now the next question. We know that a grand jury

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Speaker 1: named Richard Nixon as an unindicted co conspirator. Could that

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Speaker 1: happen here? Uh? It certainly could happen, and I think

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Speaker 1: there are some lawyers out there who believe that it

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Speaker 1: already has happened based upon the statements that were made

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Speaker 1: in court. Um, but we really don't know quite where

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Speaker 1: this is going yet. An unindicted co conspirators simply that

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Speaker 1: somebody who the government has reason to believe had knowledge

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Speaker 1: of some illegal agreement and some step was taken to

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Speaker 1: further that illegal arrangement, but they're simply not being charged

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Speaker 1: at this time. Well, we'll really have to see where

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Speaker 1: this goes in the future and whether the is the

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Speaker 1: first chapter in this public finance investigation, or whether or

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Speaker 1: not the end is simply with Michael Cohen pleading guilty.

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Speaker 1: This question has been debated that I'm about to ask you,

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Speaker 1: but I'd like your opinion on it. The Justice Department

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Speaker 1: has a policy that it will not indict a sitting president.

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Speaker 1: There there are there are contrary legal opinions that a

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Speaker 1: sitting president could be indicted. How likely is it for

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Speaker 1: the Justice Department to move off that? Do you think

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Speaker 1: that there is you know, a change in policy ahead? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, you're right, jun This is a very hotly

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Speaker 1: contested issue. Although I think the balance of opinion is

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Speaker 1: that the president cannot be indicted while he is sitting

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Speaker 1: in office, the lactic behind not is that the president

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Speaker 1: has the ability to direct the Department of Justice, and

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Speaker 1: the President has the ability to issue pardons, presumably including

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Speaker 1: a pardoner of himself, and so it doesn't make any

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Speaker 1: sense to indict the president while he is in office.

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Speaker 1: Once he leaves office, of course, he no longer has

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Speaker 1: those pardon powers. So I think it's unlikely that we

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Speaker 1: will actually see an indictment. Ever, in this case, I

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Speaker 1: think it's more likely to be referred over to Congress

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Speaker 1: for impeachment proceedings and say, actually believe there's enough evidence

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Speaker 1: to warrant that. All right, Thanks so much, Bob, as

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Speaker 1: always a pleasure to have you on. That's Robert Mints.

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Speaker 1: He's a partner at McCarter in English and a former

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Speaker 1: federal prosecutor. Thanks for listening to the Bloomberg Law Podcast.

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Speaker 1: You can subscribe and listen to the show on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud,

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Speaker 1: and on Bloomberg dot com slash podcast. I'm June Bralso

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Speaker 1: this is Bloomberg