WEBVTT - How It All Started (Rebroadcast)

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to Prognosis. I'm Laura Carlson. It's day two nine

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<v Speaker 1>three since coronavirus was declared a global pandemic On Wednesday.

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<v Speaker 1>You heard about how stars Covey too spread from bats

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<v Speaker 1>to people. Today we're revisiting one of our early episodes

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<v Speaker 1>that explores a similar theme. Bats are almost certainly the

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<v Speaker 1>source of this pandemic, but these flawing mammals may also

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<v Speaker 1>hold the clues to stopping the next one. Bloomberg Senior

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<v Speaker 1>editor Jason Gale has more. The story of bats and

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<v Speaker 1>viruses can be traced to an Australian veitnarian, Dr Hume Field,

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<v Speaker 1>the son of a policeman. Hume grew up in various

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<v Speaker 1>parts of the northeastern state of Queensland were developed a

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<v Speaker 1>fast a nation for Australia's native fauna. I've always had

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<v Speaker 1>an interest in animals, and I guess growing up as

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<v Speaker 1>a kid, I can remember my parents saying our human

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<v Speaker 1>lives animals. He's going to be a vet And this

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<v Speaker 1>was really a bit of a throwaway line because nobody

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<v Speaker 1>in our family had ever been to university. Led Alane

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<v Speaker 1>to a five year Mrginry course, but nonetheless, the sort

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<v Speaker 1>of seed took hold. I guess at least with me.

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<v Speaker 1>When I caught up with him, he was in his

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<v Speaker 1>home office in a leafy coastal area southeast of Brisbane.

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<v Speaker 1>You can hear chattering wildlife and vocal pets, as well

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<v Speaker 1>as drought breaking rain. Him graduated from the University of

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<v Speaker 1>Queensland in six He worked for a couple of years

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<v Speaker 1>in a small animal practice, but his interest in wildlife

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<v Speaker 1>led him to pursue further study in the evenings, first

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<v Speaker 1>in environmental science than a doctorate in the mid nine

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<v Speaker 1>It allowed him to combine his love of native animals

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<v Speaker 1>with emerging diseases, a time when the state's agricultural authorities

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<v Speaker 1>were trying to figure out the source of a deadly

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<v Speaker 1>horse disease. He was a virus that infected twenty race

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<v Speaker 1>horses stable in the Brisbane suburb of hend It's thought

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<v Speaker 1>to have started when a mare called Drama Series was

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<v Speaker 1>brought to the stables after she had been grazing in

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<v Speaker 1>a field at Cannon Hill, on the other side of

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<v Speaker 1>the Brisbane River. Drama Series died two days later, and

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<v Speaker 1>subsequently all of the other horses fell ill. Thirteen of

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<v Speaker 1>them died. What was especially alarming about this disease was

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<v Speaker 1>that it crossed the species barrier. A trainer and another

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<v Speaker 1>person tending to the horses became ill with a flu

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<v Speaker 1>like illness within days of Drama series death. The stable

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<v Speaker 1>hand recovered, but the trainer died of respiratory and kidney failure.

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<v Speaker 1>The virus was eventually isolated and named Hendra virus after

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<v Speaker 1>the suburb where it was found. Hume was asked to

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<v Speaker 1>help determine how Drama Series might have caught the virus.

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<v Speaker 1>He went searching the paddock where she had been grazing

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<v Speaker 1>and resumably had become infected. He caught rodents, possums, feral

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<v Speaker 1>cats and reptiles and tested them for hendra virus. When

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<v Speaker 1>the results came back negative, he went searching for clues.

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<v Speaker 1>By the people rescuing vulnerable wildlife Here in Australia, they're

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<v Speaker 1>sometimes referred to as wildlife carrots. So we subsequently broadened

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<v Speaker 1>our search and started using wildlife cares as I as

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<v Speaker 1>a conduit if you like, to be able to collect

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<v Speaker 1>samples from sick and injured animals that were in their care.

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<v Speaker 1>And it was in that process so again quite serendipulous,

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<v Speaker 1>that we actually sample. We were sampling kangaroos, we were

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<v Speaker 1>sampling parsons, we were sampling the usual things, darks, the

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<v Speaker 1>whole range of things that would come into wildlife cares.

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<v Speaker 1>And there were flying foxes on your samples, some flying foxes.

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<v Speaker 1>This was over a period of months, and lo and

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<v Speaker 1>behold we found antibodies to hendra virus and some flying foxes.

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<v Speaker 1>So we looked at some more flying foxes, and then

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<v Speaker 1>we looked at some flying foxes in captive populace and

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<v Speaker 1>the zoos, etcetera. And that's how we identified flying foxes

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<v Speaker 1>as being at that stage are possible rest of while,

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<v Speaker 1>then we went on to do further studies eventually detected

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<v Speaker 1>an isolated virus etcetera, etcetera. And so now flying foxes

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<v Speaker 1>or at least a couple of species of flying foxes

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<v Speaker 1>in Australia are recognized as the primary reservoir hosts of

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<v Speaker 1>hendra virus. Flying foxes aren't actually foxes. There are large

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<v Speaker 1>fruit eating bat with a kind of fox like face

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<v Speaker 1>and expression. They weigh up to a couple of pounds

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<v Speaker 1>and their wings can span more than three ft. The

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<v Speaker 1>finding of hendrovirus and bats was important, not just because

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<v Speaker 1>It helped identify the pathway by which horses and people

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<v Speaker 1>were being infected. It also made scientists alert to other

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<v Speaker 1>viruses bats could potentially carry. About a year after humid

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<v Speaker 1>the discovery of hender virus and flying foxes, another opportunity

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<v Speaker 1>to explore the ecology of viruses and bats presented itself,

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<v Speaker 1>this time in Malaysia, where pigs and pig farmers were

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<v Speaker 1>getting sick. By mid more than two hundred and sixty

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<v Speaker 1>five people had fallen ill with encephalitis or inflammation of

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<v Speaker 1>the brain. Of those cases were fatal. There were also

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<v Speaker 1>eleven cases of either encephalitis or respiratory illness, including one death.

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<v Speaker 1>Neighboring Singapore, scientists found the viral source. It was named

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<v Speaker 1>neiper virus, which had turned out was from the same

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<v Speaker 1>family as hendra virus. Hume was asked to help investigate

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<v Speaker 1>the source. I wanted someone who was who might be

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<v Speaker 1>able to guide and work with him to find out

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<v Speaker 1>the natural reserva. So none of we knew about hander

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<v Speaker 1>and bats. Then we immediately focused, not exclusively, but we

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<v Speaker 1>certainly focused on flying foxes in Malasia, and it wasn't

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<v Speaker 1>soon long before we found evidence of NIPA virus in

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<v Speaker 1>species of fine fox there, just as Hendra virus did.

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<v Speaker 1>The discovery of NIPA underscored their risks that emerge at

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<v Speaker 1>the interface of wildlife, farm, animals and humans. Professor Trevor

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<v Speaker 1>Drew is the director of the Australian Animal Health Laboratory

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<v Speaker 1>at Geelong, just outside of Melbourne. It's carried out key

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<v Speaker 1>research on both Hendra and niper viruses. According to Trevor,

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<v Speaker 1>the emergence of Hendra and then Nipper identified the ways

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<v Speaker 1>in which batborn viruses can spill over it and infect

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<v Speaker 1>other species. And Nipper virus was a disease also of

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<v Speaker 1>fruit bats in Malaysia initially, and that virus got into

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<v Speaker 1>pigs because the they were starting to put pig farms

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<v Speaker 1>into more forested areas, and the feces from the bats

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<v Speaker 1>got into the pig styes and was thought to have

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<v Speaker 1>infected the pigs that way, and it killed hundreds of pigs,

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<v Speaker 1>if not thousands of pigs. NIPA isn't just confined to

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<v Speaker 1>Malaysia over the past decade. It's caused outbreaks in India

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<v Speaker 1>and Bangladesh that have killed dozens of people. We also

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<v Speaker 1>now as also know from incidents in Bangladesh of outbreaks

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<v Speaker 1>of NIPA virus that you don't need the pick that

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<v Speaker 1>the that the bat can actually also infect humans directly

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<v Speaker 1>via drinking out of vessels of palm sap that are

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<v Speaker 1>put onto the tree to to harvest the palm sap,

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<v Speaker 1>and people drink this palm sap, but so does the

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<v Speaker 1>bat and they will come down and the saliva from

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<v Speaker 1>the bat can contaminate the palm sap and infect the

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<v Speaker 1>human directly. So we know that that that is one incident,

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<v Speaker 1>but certainly in Malaysia now they're very very careful not

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<v Speaker 1>to have pig farms near bat roosts. And even more

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<v Speaker 1>dramatic outbreak occurred just a few years later. Severe acute

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<v Speaker 1>respiratory syndrome or SARS, emerged in southern China in two

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<v Speaker 1>thousand and two. It's a deadly a cousin of COVID

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<v Speaker 1>nineteen that quickly spread across the world. Hum Field was

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<v Speaker 1>asked to help investigate its source. And because of our

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<v Speaker 1>experience with bats and hand virus and needle virus and

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<v Speaker 1>growing awareness that there seemed to be something special about

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<v Speaker 1>bats and these spillovera viruses, then we hypothesize that bats

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<v Speaker 1>may play a role in the the origins of stars,

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<v Speaker 1>and so we went down that track. It's interesting to

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<v Speaker 1>reflect on the significance of the discovery of species of

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<v Speaker 1>bats and flying foxes as the natural reservoir of hendra

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<v Speaker 1>virus because really that finding, I think has potentially colored

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<v Speaker 1>the identification of bats, or you know, sort of underlying

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<v Speaker 1>the identification of various species of bats being a socialate

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<v Speaker 1>with this suite of other emerging diseases that we've seen

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<v Speaker 1>over time. If we have the group that Hume just

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<v Speaker 1>referred to also includes a bowl of viruses and list

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<v Speaker 1>of virus which causes rabies, as well as a number

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<v Speaker 1>of coronaviruses, including stars and most likely the one responsible

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<v Speaker 1>for the COVID nineteen pandemic. So what is it about

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<v Speaker 1>bats that makes them such great virus vectors. That's a

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<v Speaker 1>quite unique if you think about it in terms of

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<v Speaker 1>them being a mammal that can fly. So so ba's

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<v Speaker 1>are mammals, they produce milk cyclely young they but they

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<v Speaker 1>have got this amazing evolutionary adaptation or ability to be

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<v Speaker 1>able to fly so highly mobile. They also typically live

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<v Speaker 1>in large populations colonies roost, whether it's the big fruit

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<v Speaker 1>bats or flying fox is whether it's small microbats in caves,

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<v Speaker 1>and typically these groups have mixed species as well. Um

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<v Speaker 1>they're relatively long lived animals as as a taxa. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>flying fox are certainly recorded, I think in captivity to

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<v Speaker 1>live well into twenties. Certainly wouldn't live that long in nature,

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<v Speaker 1>but certainly you know, they live for years. So all

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<v Speaker 1>of these factors are very attractive for mammalian virus survival

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<v Speaker 1>and dissemination, if you like. According to Hume, bats have

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<v Speaker 1>evolved and adapted to coexist with the viruses that infect them,

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<v Speaker 1>and so the thinking was that, well, you know, these

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<v Speaker 1>are just viruses of bats, and the bats are used

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<v Speaker 1>to them because they've evolved with them, and that's why

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<v Speaker 1>the bats don't get sick with these viruses. But if

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<v Speaker 1>they spill into other naive, immunologically naive species, then they

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<v Speaker 1>have a dramatic, simularly dramatic and often fatal infection. But

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<v Speaker 1>more recently people have dug a bit further to try

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<v Speaker 1>to understand if there isn't doing something else going on

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<v Speaker 1>with bats, and it seems that there isn't. Hume now

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<v Speaker 1>works as a science and policy advisor with the Eco

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<v Speaker 1>Health Alliance. It's a New York based NGO that works

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<v Speaker 1>to protect wildlife and public health from the emergence of disease.

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<v Speaker 1>Spill over events are becoming more risky. Bats, as we heard,

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<v Speaker 1>are coming into closer contact with farm animals, but they're

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<v Speaker 1>also coming into closer contact with humans. A key reason

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<v Speaker 1>for that is that bats are losing their habitat. Critically,

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<v Speaker 1>they're losing their natural food source. What you're hearing is

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<v Speaker 1>the sound of gray headed flying foxes roosting. It's dusk

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<v Speaker 1>and I'm sitting on a grassy bank of the Times

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<v Speaker 1>River in the center of Adelaide, the capital of South Australia.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm literally a stone's throw from the University of Adelaide,

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<v Speaker 1>my alma mart behind me, and the Adelaide Zoo on

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<v Speaker 1>the other side of the river. This is a popular

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<v Speaker 1>place for the twenty thousand bats hanging upside down from

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<v Speaker 1>the eucalyptus trees above me. It's a familiar place for

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<v Speaker 1>Dr Mark Ship, Australia's chief ventinarian, who is based in

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<v Speaker 1>Canberra but also grew up in South Australia. Mark is

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<v Speaker 1>the president of the World Organization for Animal Health. He

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<v Speaker 1>told me that bats have taken up residency in Adelaide

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<v Speaker 1>and other urban centers, but not by choice. Yes, almost

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<v Speaker 1>every city in Australia now has a resident roost of

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<v Speaker 1>flying foxes. And the fruiting and the flowering trees that

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<v Speaker 1>these bats normally feed on have been largely removed from

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<v Speaker 1>rural Australia and so they've been forced into urban centers

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<v Speaker 1>and suburban park land where there is some flowering trees

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<v Speaker 1>and some fruiting trees, but these are not the preferred

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<v Speaker 1>diet of the flying foxes and they're putting those flying

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<v Speaker 1>foxes under stress. We've seen a number of incidents in

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<v Speaker 1>Australia over recent years with large scale mortalities of flying

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<v Speaker 1>foxes due to heat events. Here in Canberra we had

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<v Speaker 1>a large hail storm event which killed over three hundred

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<v Speaker 1>flying foxes. It reflects that their their in centers where

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<v Speaker 1>they would normally not be present, and that they're under

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<v Speaker 1>stress when they're in those centers. There's another concern with

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<v Speaker 1>maths roosting places like this where horses are being kept

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<v Speaker 1>less than a mile from here. For us, that the

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<v Speaker 1>concern is that where we have park land, we often

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<v Speaker 1>have horses and we know that flying foxes can transmit

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<v Speaker 1>hendra virus two horses, and that those horses and turn

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<v Speaker 1>can transmit that virus to humans, and and that's a

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<v Speaker 1>fatal disease of both horses and of humans. And then

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<v Speaker 1>and then that there is the risk that the bats

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<v Speaker 1>themselves will will transmit directly to human populations. And there

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<v Speaker 1>are a number of coronaviruses and other viruses that bats

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<v Speaker 1>carry and can transmit to the human population. But there

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<v Speaker 1>are other consequences of the loss of that habitat. While

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<v Speaker 1>these animals can carry some pretty nasty viruses, they perform

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<v Speaker 1>functions vital for the Australian ecosystem. They play very important

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<v Speaker 1>roles in terms of insect control, of pollination and of

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<v Speaker 1>seed dispersal. The role that they play in keeping down

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<v Speaker 1>insect numbers which and and insects can transmit disease, particularly

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<v Speaker 1>in northern Australia, is very important. And then that the

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<v Speaker 1>role that they play in eliminating plants as they move

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<v Speaker 1>between plants and then dispersing seeds where they eat fruits

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<v Speaker 1>and disperse the seeds so that those plants become established

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<v Speaker 1>in other areas is very important and is a role

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<v Speaker 1>that no other participant in the ecosystem can ploy. In

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<v Speaker 1>the mammalian world, lifespan is generally proportional to body size

0:15:28.160 --> 0:15:33.080
<v Speaker 1>and metabolic rate that's defined both these rules. One bat

0:15:33.120 --> 0:15:36.760
<v Speaker 1>species weighing just seven grams or a quarter of an ounce,

0:15:37.120 --> 0:15:40.120
<v Speaker 1>can live for more than forty years. It's one of

0:15:40.200 --> 0:15:43.720
<v Speaker 1>a number of quirks of these critters. Professor Lindfa Wang

0:15:43.800 --> 0:15:47.720
<v Speaker 1>has been unlocking the secrets of bats since the nineties.

0:15:48.360 --> 0:15:52.280
<v Speaker 1>He was the scientist who isolated and characterized hendra virus

0:15:52.800 --> 0:15:57.240
<v Speaker 1>and identified its viralogical cousin Nika. Actually it was Lindfa

0:15:57.360 --> 0:16:00.840
<v Speaker 1>who named the genus to which they both belong, hannaper virus.

0:16:01.760 --> 0:16:04.120
<v Speaker 1>Back then he was working at the Australian Animal Health

0:16:04.200 --> 0:16:07.680
<v Speaker 1>Laboratory just outside of Melbourne. He now heads the Emerging

0:16:07.720 --> 0:16:12.000
<v Speaker 1>Infectious Diseases Program at Singapore's Duke and Us Medical School.

0:16:12.600 --> 0:16:15.520
<v Speaker 1>For the past thirteen years, he's devoted his career to

0:16:15.600 --> 0:16:21.080
<v Speaker 1>studying bat biology and bat immunology, particularly its defense against viruses.

0:16:22.000 --> 0:16:24.800
<v Speaker 1>He's brought a number of researchers along with him in Australia,

0:16:25.000 --> 0:16:27.720
<v Speaker 1>Singapore and now China, where he was born and did

0:16:27.880 --> 0:16:32.400
<v Speaker 1>his undergrad degree in scientific circles. Lympha is sometimes known

0:16:32.440 --> 0:16:35.760
<v Speaker 1>as the batman. People give me the nickname of Batman

0:16:35.800 --> 0:16:38.080
<v Speaker 1>that I tried to clasp them that I actually don't

0:16:38.120 --> 0:16:41.960
<v Speaker 1>started bad, but batmus. Lympha serves on the World Health

0:16:42.040 --> 0:16:46.320
<v Speaker 1>Organization's Emergency Committee, advising the Director General on the current

0:16:46.360 --> 0:16:50.280
<v Speaker 1>COVID nineteen pandemic. It's a reflection of the knowledge in

0:16:50.320 --> 0:16:54.360
<v Speaker 1>his twenty person lab have amassed on these animals, and

0:16:54.400 --> 0:16:57.480
<v Speaker 1>we have been focusing on the question of why that's,

0:16:57.520 --> 0:16:59.720
<v Speaker 1>why that's are so different, why they can carry so

0:16:59.760 --> 0:17:02.400
<v Speaker 1>many laws and themselves do not get sick, and why

0:17:02.480 --> 0:17:06.680
<v Speaker 1>bats lives so long. Consider their living environment and also

0:17:06.760 --> 0:17:09.399
<v Speaker 1>the straps they have during fly and also the pattern

0:17:09.440 --> 0:17:12.640
<v Speaker 1>and they're exposed is much much more than a non

0:17:12.680 --> 0:17:15.560
<v Speaker 1>flying mammal. It turns out that the immune system of

0:17:15.560 --> 0:17:19.440
<v Speaker 1>these flying mammals is different to that of terrestrial mammals.

0:17:19.680 --> 0:17:24.200
<v Speaker 1>Bat's react to infections at an earlier stage, arresting them

0:17:24.240 --> 0:17:28.159
<v Speaker 1>before they cause any disease. That enables bats to avoid

0:17:28.200 --> 0:17:33.800
<v Speaker 1>the damaging inflammatory immune response. Other mammals, including humans, often

0:17:33.840 --> 0:17:38.000
<v Speaker 1>mount in response to virulent infections. So our current looking

0:17:38.080 --> 0:17:44.840
<v Speaker 1>hypothesis is that that's have a much better defences the torrents.

0:17:45.000 --> 0:17:50.040
<v Speaker 1>Pathologists studying COVID nineteen and other pathogenic viruses have observed

0:17:50.119 --> 0:17:54.679
<v Speaker 1>that when the body initially recognizes an infection, various white

0:17:54.680 --> 0:17:58.520
<v Speaker 1>blood cells that consume pathogens and help heal damage tissue

0:17:58.920 --> 0:18:02.919
<v Speaker 1>act as first response wonders. In some severe infections, the

0:18:02.960 --> 0:18:06.639
<v Speaker 1>body's effort to heal itself maybe two robust, leading to

0:18:06.680 --> 0:18:11.080
<v Speaker 1>the destruction of not just virus infected cells, but healthy tissue.

0:18:11.640 --> 0:18:16.280
<v Speaker 1>It's that inflammatory response that ends up being deadly. Bats

0:18:16.480 --> 0:18:20.720
<v Speaker 1>don't suffer the same fate that can defend themselves, launch

0:18:20.760 --> 0:18:24.720
<v Speaker 1>the inflammation, but they don't go over. Okay, So this

0:18:24.920 --> 0:18:27.520
<v Speaker 1>is a very big area of research, and I think

0:18:27.600 --> 0:18:31.399
<v Speaker 1>we human can learn Lympha says he's convinced that's offer

0:18:31.640 --> 0:18:35.359
<v Speaker 1>important insights into the regulation of the immune system that

0:18:35.520 --> 0:18:39.040
<v Speaker 1>may inform ways the human body can better tackle COVID

0:18:39.080 --> 0:18:43.080
<v Speaker 1>nineteen and other viral diseases. So my slogan now is

0:18:43.160 --> 0:18:46.199
<v Speaker 1>that my study is basically looking from that that have

0:18:46.359 --> 0:18:49.720
<v Speaker 1>so much of the features. For one thing, Limpa is

0:18:49.760 --> 0:18:52.919
<v Speaker 1>intrigued that species of that that way is just seven

0:18:53.000 --> 0:18:55.600
<v Speaker 1>grams has a heart that beats more than one thousand

0:18:55.640 --> 0:18:58.879
<v Speaker 1>times per minute during flight. It flies for five to

0:18:59.000 --> 0:19:02.200
<v Speaker 1>eight hours daily and can live for forty three years.

0:19:02.680 --> 0:19:06.600
<v Speaker 1>This is all done with the same heart, with any medication,

0:19:06.680 --> 0:19:11.200
<v Speaker 1>with any in the hygiene. You imagine that, right. It's incredible.

0:19:11.800 --> 0:19:15.320
<v Speaker 1>It's a little wondered that Lindfa is working with cardiologists

0:19:15.359 --> 0:19:19.080
<v Speaker 1>who study the heart muscles of bats, just one of

0:19:19.160 --> 0:19:22.840
<v Speaker 1>a number of medical disciplines he's recruited into his backpack.

0:19:23.960 --> 0:19:26.840
<v Speaker 1>I have been able to mobilize not in passion disease,

0:19:26.920 --> 0:19:31.080
<v Speaker 1>to people, genomics, people immunologists, and the cans of biologists

0:19:31.119 --> 0:19:34.840
<v Speaker 1>and now cardiologists are collaboys. Be just started back. My

0:19:34.920 --> 0:19:37.800
<v Speaker 1>personal dream you have enough money, is to statue a

0:19:37.880 --> 0:19:40.280
<v Speaker 1>bad institute. I think that we have lots to learn

0:19:40.280 --> 0:19:44.520
<v Speaker 1>from that. That's can help us identify what viruses of

0:19:44.640 --> 0:19:48.560
<v Speaker 1>pandemic potential are lurking in nature, as well as ways

0:19:48.720 --> 0:19:51.600
<v Speaker 1>we might be able to mitigate their threat. They're just

0:19:51.680 --> 0:19:55.800
<v Speaker 1>one example of how humans are profoundly affected by what

0:19:55.960 --> 0:20:01.040
<v Speaker 1>happens in global ecosystems. To anticipate, prevent, and responded to

0:20:01.200 --> 0:20:04.760
<v Speaker 1>zase threats in like COVID nineteen means taking an increasingly

0:20:04.920 --> 0:20:15.199
<v Speaker 1>wide angled look at the natural world. That was Jason Gale,

0:20:15.480 --> 0:20:17.840
<v Speaker 1>and that's it for our show today. For coverage of

0:20:17.840 --> 0:20:20.400
<v Speaker 1>the outbreak from one and twenty bureaus around the world,

0:20:20.760 --> 0:20:25.199
<v Speaker 1>visit bloomberg dot com slash Coronavirus and if you like

0:20:25.320 --> 0:20:27.720
<v Speaker 1>the show, please leave us a review and a rating

0:20:27.960 --> 0:20:31.280
<v Speaker 1>on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. It's the best way to

0:20:31.320 --> 0:20:35.720
<v Speaker 1>help more listeners find our global reporting. The Prognosis Daily

0:20:35.840 --> 0:20:39.800
<v Speaker 1>Edition is produced by Topher Foreheads, Jordan's Gas Pure, Magnus

0:20:39.800 --> 0:20:44.440
<v Speaker 1>Henrickson and me Laura Carlson. Original music by Leo Sidrin.

0:20:44.920 --> 0:20:48.880
<v Speaker 1>Our editors are Rick Shawn and Francesca Levi. Francesco Levi

0:20:49.160 --> 0:21:03.600
<v Speaker 1>is Bloomberg's head of podcasts. Thanks for listening, Footable and