WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 243 0:00:01.680 --> 0:00:03.040 Cool Zone Media. 0:00:03.320 --> 0:00:05.720 Hey everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let 0:00:05.800 --> 0:00:09.440 you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode 0:00:09.560 --> 0:00:12.680 of the week that just happened is here in one 0:00:12.800 --> 0:00:16.520 convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 0:00:16.560 --> 0:00:19.040 listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 0:00:19.040 --> 0:00:21.000 you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:21.040 --> 0:00:22.759 there's going to be nothing new here for you, but 0:00:23.120 --> 0:00:24.800 you can make your own decisions. 0:00:28.720 --> 0:00:30.720 Hello everyone, I'm welcome to di could Happen Here. My 0:00:30.840 --> 0:00:32.680 name is Dan el Kerd, and I'm a researcher and 0:00:32.720 --> 0:00:36.199 analyst of Arab and Palestinian politics. Today I'm joined by 0:00:36.360 --> 0:00:39.360 Edia Yub, who is a Palstinian Lebanese writer and researcher 0:00:39.640 --> 0:00:42.040 as well as a podcaster with the podcast The Fire 0:00:42.080 --> 0:00:45.560 These Times and from the Periphery Media Collective. And today 0:00:45.560 --> 0:00:49.159 he's speaking to us about the recent agreement between Lebanon 0:00:49.280 --> 0:00:54.120 and Israel related to Israel's continued occupation of the southern 0:00:54.160 --> 0:00:57.640 part of Lebanon and continued bombardment. So he's going to 0:00:57.640 --> 0:01:01.000 talk to us about what the agreement says, why there 0:01:01.000 --> 0:01:05.000 are so many problems and concerns related to disagreement and 0:01:05.200 --> 0:01:08.080 how it fits into the broader regional war against Iran. 0:01:08.560 --> 0:01:08.880 Adia. 0:01:09.000 --> 0:01:10.120 Thank you so much for joining. 0:01:09.959 --> 0:01:11.680 Us, Hi, thank you for having me again. 0:01:12.560 --> 0:01:15.600 So today we're going to be discussing, as I mentioned 0:01:15.640 --> 0:01:19.800 in the intro, the agreement between Lebanon and Israel, the Framework, 0:01:20.040 --> 0:01:23.760 which has been quite controversial. So I wanted to just 0:01:23.800 --> 0:01:26.800 give you an opportunity to give a brief explainer. What 0:01:26.920 --> 0:01:27.600 is this agreement. 0:01:28.280 --> 0:01:30.880 So it's technically like it tried lands, the framework in 0:01:30.880 --> 0:01:34.400 the sense that it includes legally anyway, the US, Israel, 0:01:34.560 --> 0:01:37.920 and Lebanon. Ostensibly, like what it says it does is 0:01:37.959 --> 0:01:41.000 that it proposes some kind of future in which Lebanon 0:01:41.120 --> 0:01:44.319 and Israel, which have been in the factor state of 0:01:44.440 --> 0:01:48.520 war for basically forever, to no longer be in that 0:01:48.640 --> 0:01:52.760 the factor state of war. The problem, which probably won't 0:01:52.760 --> 0:01:55.840 surprise like the audience of this podcast, the problem is 0:01:55.880 --> 0:01:57.960 sort of in the details, like what is it that 0:01:58.040 --> 0:02:01.480 Lebanon has signed. If you look on the website itself, 0:02:01.520 --> 0:02:04.559 it's on the American government's website, there are fourteen points. 0:02:05.080 --> 0:02:06.920 It's roughly on thousand. 0:02:06.920 --> 0:02:09.880 I don't know, three hundred words or so, and already 0:02:09.919 --> 0:02:13.680 you see what's absent, which is the terms like withdraworld 0:02:13.840 --> 0:02:17.160 and of occupation any of that. There's basically no stipulation 0:02:17.280 --> 0:02:22.440 whatsoever that the Israelis have to leave Lebanon, and you'll 0:02:22.480 --> 0:02:25.040 have people who support the zero sell. Well, technically that's 0:02:25.080 --> 0:02:27.799 not true, because it says here in number two, Government 0:02:27.840 --> 0:02:30.960 of Israel and Government of Lebanon commit to reciprocal sequence 0:02:31.040 --> 0:02:34.359 process with clear conditions, whereby the LAF, which is the 0:02:34.440 --> 0:02:38.240 Lebanese Armed Forces, whether he's store effective sovereign authority over 0:02:38.280 --> 0:02:41.320 all of Lebanes's territory. And here is the grub Um 0:02:41.400 --> 0:02:45.520 quoting pending the verified disarmament of non state armed groups 0:02:45.520 --> 0:02:49.440 and dismantlement of associated infrastructure, enabling the idea of the 0:02:49.760 --> 0:02:53.000 defense forces to progressively redeploy out of Lebanin's territory. 0:02:53.680 --> 0:02:57.520 What it essentially says, and the various. 0:02:57.200 --> 0:02:58.680 Points we don't have to go through all of them 0:02:58.800 --> 0:03:02.560 essentially confirm this time time again is that Israel will 0:03:02.600 --> 0:03:06.080 get to define, will get to decide when an area 0:03:06.400 --> 0:03:09.720 that Israel is occupying, as in the Debanese territory that 0:03:09.800 --> 0:03:11.760 Israel is occupying, when. 0:03:11.600 --> 0:03:14.959 That area is officially disarmed. 0:03:14.800 --> 0:03:17.240 When it is no longer a quote on quote security 0:03:17.280 --> 0:03:20.120 thread the Debinese state has no say in the matter. 0:03:20.840 --> 0:03:24.920 There's no independent, like un type mechanism that would determine that. 0:03:25.440 --> 0:03:28.280 It's just Israel that gets to define that. And what 0:03:28.320 --> 0:03:30.720 they're currently they're currently doing, which is what the Lebanese 0:03:30.720 --> 0:03:33.639 government has agreed to, which is part of the controversy 0:03:33.680 --> 0:03:36.560 that we'll get into, is that they're creating these two 0:03:36.600 --> 0:03:39.640 so called pilot zones, which are among it in the 0:03:39.720 --> 0:03:42.640 territory that is THEAD is currently occupying in Lebanon, in 0:03:42.680 --> 0:03:45.480 which they will allow the LAF, the Debinese owned forces 0:03:45.920 --> 0:03:49.520 to progressively assert its I'm putting this in quotation. You 0:03:49.560 --> 0:03:53.280 can't see it like assert is a sovereign territorial control. 0:03:53.840 --> 0:03:55.920 But and here again is the kind of the devil 0:03:55.920 --> 0:03:59.080 in the detail. The Lebanese army cannot actually enforce anything 0:03:59.120 --> 0:04:02.680 that would still be the authority of the Israeli army, 0:04:02.720 --> 0:04:05.240 which again is the one that is currently illegally occupying 0:04:05.280 --> 0:04:08.480 southern Lebanon. So yeah, we can get into more of 0:04:08.480 --> 0:04:10.640 the details, but that's sort of in a nutshell why 0:04:10.680 --> 0:04:11.280 it's so bad. 0:04:11.440 --> 0:04:13.520 But I can get into more why it's bad as well. 0:04:13.680 --> 0:04:15.840 Oh yeah, we'd like to talk about all the bad, 0:04:16.480 --> 0:04:19.400 So before we get into like all the bad Where 0:04:19.400 --> 0:04:20.920 does Hasbola play into any of this? 0:04:21.560 --> 0:04:23.640 Well, unsurprisingly, Hasbella opposes this. 0:04:24.279 --> 0:04:26.760 In fact, I don't think a majority of the political 0:04:26.760 --> 0:04:30.000 parties currently in the Libanese parliament support this, if I'm 0:04:30.040 --> 0:04:32.560 not mistaken, which is one of the reasons why I 0:04:32.600 --> 0:04:35.800 don't think this particular agreement, which is the latest of 0:04:35.839 --> 0:04:38.680 so many agreements between the Americans, Israelis and the Delibanese, 0:04:38.680 --> 0:04:41.000 at least at the official level, I don't see this 0:04:41.120 --> 0:04:44.560 lasting very long. Hezbolla has immediately said that this is 0:04:44.560 --> 0:04:47.960 a humiliation, it's surrendered its defeat, which is not that unusual. 0:04:48.000 --> 0:04:51.800 That's sort of how they've been talking about these negotiations 0:04:51.800 --> 0:04:55.440 for since they started. Really and it declared them declared 0:04:55.440 --> 0:04:58.800 this agreement null and void, which they cannot get more 0:04:59.040 --> 0:05:02.359 more stit forward than that. Their main ally in parliament 0:05:02.960 --> 0:05:05.320 i e. The Amal movement has also come out to 0:05:05.360 --> 0:05:07.359 oppose this, which is a big deal because that's the 0:05:07.360 --> 0:05:11.080 speaker of parliament. Lebanon is ruled by this kind of troika, 0:05:11.120 --> 0:05:13.240 so he's one or one out of three, which is 0:05:13.279 --> 0:05:15.920 a big problem for the other two. And yeah, I 0:05:16.200 --> 0:05:19.800 kind of genuinely don't see this lasting, but I am 0:05:19.880 --> 0:05:22.200 also worried about what can come next. 0:05:22.480 --> 0:05:25.920 I mean, the fact that Israel is again the unilateral 0:05:26.320 --> 0:05:29.479 you know, judge jury executioner here exactly obviously is a 0:05:29.560 --> 0:05:31.880 very big problem. But what other issues do you foresee 0:05:31.920 --> 0:05:32.640 with disagreement. 0:05:33.240 --> 0:05:37.080 I worry that the Lebanese government, in at first having 0:05:37.160 --> 0:05:41.920 some I think understandable concerns over Iran's rule and Lebanon, 0:05:42.000 --> 0:05:45.200 and we can get into that, has sort of I 0:05:45.240 --> 0:05:47.560 don't know how you would describe it, maybe over corrected 0:05:47.640 --> 0:05:51.000 and gone a bit too anti Iran, which in and 0:05:51.040 --> 0:05:51.840 of itself I. 0:05:51.800 --> 0:05:53.200 Wouldn't necessarily oppose. 0:05:53.240 --> 0:05:55.200 I'm not a fan of the Islamic Republic, to put 0:05:55.240 --> 0:05:58.160 it mildly, and I've always opposed has Balaf as long 0:05:58.160 --> 0:06:01.800 as I can remember. But the timing of doing what 0:06:01.839 --> 0:06:03.560 they've been doing, and I can get into it now, 0:06:04.080 --> 0:06:07.840 has been I think, very to put it charitably, very puzzling, 0:06:07.880 --> 0:06:10.160 but I think also like very very short sighted and 0:06:10.600 --> 0:06:14.720 frankly rectless and dangerous. This is all while Israel is 0:06:14.760 --> 0:06:17.920 bombing Lebanon. I should say, if this was any context 0:06:17.960 --> 0:06:20.520 where there was no active war, I wouldn't have as 0:06:20.520 --> 0:06:23.359 big of an issue with it. But they've declared the 0:06:23.400 --> 0:06:26.800 Ionian ambassador to Lebanon to be persona non grata. They've 0:06:26.839 --> 0:06:29.479 taken down photos of the Aetola by the road to 0:06:29.520 --> 0:06:32.520 the airport and replaced it with lubnan Aulan, which is 0:06:32.560 --> 0:06:37.040 like Lebanon. First, they've deported like members of the IOGC, 0:06:37.160 --> 0:06:40.560 the Iranian Revolutionary Guards, and done a bunch of other 0:06:41.000 --> 0:06:43.440 even like rhetorical things like the president would go on 0:06:43.440 --> 0:06:45.760 Twitter and say like Elon get out and stuff like that. 0:06:45.880 --> 0:06:49.520 The president of Lebanon, which again I have one thousand 0:06:49.560 --> 0:06:52.920 and one issues with the Iranian role in Lebanon, and 0:06:53.000 --> 0:06:57.240 including my issue with Hazbola, but there's only one country 0:06:57.279 --> 0:07:01.400 that is currently actually occupying Lebanon military and actually bombing 0:07:01.480 --> 0:07:04.640 Lebanon militarily with its military I mean, and that country 0:07:04.720 --> 0:07:08.920 is not Iran. So the priorities of the government in 0:07:09.040 --> 0:07:12.880 wanting to distance itself from Hasbola's actions, which I should 0:07:12.880 --> 0:07:15.720 say have been controversial from the beginning because Hesbolla took 0:07:15.720 --> 0:07:19.960 a unionatural decision to enter the war against Israel, a 0:07:19.960 --> 0:07:22.480 decision that was not made with like the rest of 0:07:22.600 --> 0:07:25.559 Lebanon's approval. So it's been like controversial from the start. 0:07:26.360 --> 0:07:29.080 And that's what I meant by like the charitable interpretation 0:07:29.280 --> 0:07:32.680 is that the Lebanese government sort of overcorrected and instead, 0:07:33.280 --> 0:07:36.800 by attempting, supposedly to distance itself from Iran, what has 0:07:36.920 --> 0:07:40.040 actually done is made us even more dependent on the 0:07:40.160 --> 0:07:41.880 United States than we used to be before. 0:07:42.280 --> 0:07:44.680 Right, So that's where the things you're describing under normal 0:07:44.760 --> 0:07:47.160 circumstances to be like, yeah, like why is I run 0:07:47.320 --> 0:07:50.560 so embedded in a lot of these different countries in 0:07:50.600 --> 0:07:53.440 the region, and why does it have such an interventionist role? 0:07:53.560 --> 0:07:58.120 But you're saying it's reckless in this context where the 0:07:58.160 --> 0:08:00.440 Lebanese government is basically making itself more more at the 0:08:00.480 --> 0:08:05.320 mercy of actors like the United States and Israel by proxy. 0:08:05.640 --> 0:08:07.920 Yeah, as of now, like and I really tried my 0:08:08.000 --> 0:08:10.800 best to look for some leverage that Lebanon might have, 0:08:10.920 --> 0:08:13.200 but as of now, I don't actually see any leverage 0:08:13.240 --> 0:08:14.280 that Lebanon has. 0:08:14.560 --> 0:08:16.360 It's basically we hope for the best. 0:08:16.520 --> 0:08:19.160 Like I wish I could put it differently, but it 0:08:19.320 --> 0:08:21.880 essentially is under the hope that, like the Trump administration 0:08:22.000 --> 0:08:24.960 instared of Ntanyahu, that it might fall you know, force 0:08:25.040 --> 0:08:28.560 day israelis to either withdraw from Lebanon, or to adverely 0:08:28.640 --> 0:08:31.200 stop the bombing or whatnot, which I've seen no evidence of. 0:08:31.320 --> 0:08:34.520 And as of now, every time a so called ceasefire 0:08:34.559 --> 0:08:37.360 has been signed that even has bottle like Grito, the 0:08:37.400 --> 0:08:39.920 only thing that it's done is that Hezbollah would not 0:08:40.040 --> 0:08:43.520 respond to Israeli bombings. So the Israeli bombings have been 0:08:43.679 --> 0:08:47.160 constant throughout this entire thing. Ceasefire or no ceasefire, since 0:08:47.200 --> 0:08:48.880 the agreement was signed, they've continued. 0:08:48.880 --> 0:08:49.679 They haven't stopped. 0:08:50.280 --> 0:08:53.120 As of time of recording, over four th two hundred 0:08:53.200 --> 0:08:57.520 Lebanese have been killed since the beginning of this latest war, 0:08:57.600 --> 0:08:59.480 so not even since the beginning since twenty twenty three, 0:08:59.520 --> 0:09:03.400 but twenty twenty six alone, because Israel does not discriminate 0:09:03.440 --> 0:09:05.840 and how they bomb. So to give you the example 0:09:05.880 --> 0:09:08.720 of those two so called pilot zones, are they even 0:09:08.720 --> 0:09:10.400 inhabitable as of now? 0:09:10.440 --> 0:09:11.000 I don't know. 0:09:11.559 --> 0:09:14.880 Because of the fifty four towns and villages Lebanese towns 0:09:14.880 --> 0:09:19.120 and villages that the Israelis militarily occupy, at least forty 0:09:19.120 --> 0:09:21.840 six of them that we know of, are either partially 0:09:21.960 --> 0:09:23.239 or entirely demolished. 0:09:23.920 --> 0:09:25.680 So what are those security zones? 0:09:25.679 --> 0:09:27.800 What does that even mean, you know, but again it 0:09:27.880 --> 0:09:30.080 is the entire problem now is that they get to 0:09:30.120 --> 0:09:32.840 decide all of that. And again with all of my 0:09:32.920 --> 0:09:36.040 issues with Iran, the agreement that the Lebanese have signed 0:09:36.040 --> 0:09:39.400 with the Israelis, I think is objectively worse than the 0:09:39.440 --> 0:09:42.480 MEMORANDUV understanding that the Iranians signed with the Americans that 0:09:42.640 --> 0:09:46.600 actually also included Lebanon, because at least in that AMYU 0:09:46.640 --> 0:09:50.839 and thatment of understanding, it included the sentence territorial integrity 0:09:50.880 --> 0:09:53.840 and sovereignty of Lebanon, as well as the call for seasfire, 0:09:54.200 --> 0:09:55.839 which was a nightmare for Nataniahu. 0:10:06.320 --> 0:10:10.000 Let's talk about Iran more specifically for a moment. I mean, 0:10:10.440 --> 0:10:13.400 Lebanon has taken out, the ambassador has made all of 0:10:13.440 --> 0:10:16.600 these kind of rhetorical shifts away from the Iranian regime. 0:10:16.640 --> 0:10:20.840 Obviously display for the US and for Israel. But Iran, 0:10:21.559 --> 0:10:25.040 how has it responded, How has the government responded, and 0:10:25.080 --> 0:10:28.880 how does this agreement relate to the MLU that Iran 0:10:28.960 --> 0:10:30.199 signed with the United States. 0:10:30.720 --> 0:10:33.520 So it's quite complicated because the MoU was signed just 0:10:33.559 --> 0:10:36.440 about a week or so before. So the deal between 0:10:36.480 --> 0:10:38.680 the Ionians and the Americans was signed roughly a Dean 0:10:38.840 --> 0:10:41.079 or agreed upon. I don't know if they signed these 0:10:41.080 --> 0:10:44.880 things roughly a week before this one, the one between 0:10:44.920 --> 0:10:48.720 Israel and Lebanon via America that hypotheitle one, as they 0:10:48.720 --> 0:10:52.040 call it. One interpretation that I've seen is that by 0:10:52.040 --> 0:10:56.320 going directly to Lebanon, America actually managed to bypass these 0:10:56.920 --> 0:10:59.440 kind of bullet points that Iran was putting forward. So 0:10:59.480 --> 0:11:01.440 like let's say Iran is saying, what lebt there should 0:11:01.440 --> 0:11:04.160 be ceasefire in Lebanon and that there should be like 0:11:04.280 --> 0:11:07.960 territorial integrity and sovereignty. In the meantime, the Lebanese state 0:11:08.040 --> 0:11:10.160 is saying to Iran, like, you do not negotiate on 0:11:10.200 --> 0:11:14.400 our behalf. So the Americans go to Lebanon directly, or 0:11:14.600 --> 0:11:17.240 rather Lebanon goes to the American and they superseded, they 0:11:17.280 --> 0:11:21.000 supersede this and they do negotiation, or they they get 0:11:21.000 --> 0:11:23.760 the Lebanese to sign this latest agreement directly, which of 0:11:23.760 --> 0:11:27.680 course does not include Iran anyway. So the main difference 0:11:27.720 --> 0:11:31.520 is between the MoU between America and Iran and the 0:11:31.600 --> 0:11:36.240 agreement between let's say Israel and Lebanon, is that Israel 0:11:36.320 --> 0:11:39.680 had no parts whatsoever in the MoU, and if it 0:11:39.720 --> 0:11:42.320 had come to pass. If the Iranians had basically gotten 0:11:42.360 --> 0:11:45.800 what they were asking for, the Americans would have been forced, 0:11:45.800 --> 0:11:49.280 at least legally, to pressure the Israelis to leave Lebanon 0:11:49.360 --> 0:11:54.240 all together. No ifs and bots, no negotiated exit whatever 0:11:54.320 --> 0:11:57.280 that means, no making up pilot zones, none of that stuff. 0:11:57.760 --> 0:12:01.000 It would just be you've been doing this occupation illegally. 0:12:01.040 --> 0:12:02.720 You need to leave, as simple as that. That's been 0:12:02.760 --> 0:12:05.920 the Iranian position, which is not a position that most 0:12:06.000 --> 0:12:08.040 Lebanies would disagree with, because it is. 0:12:08.040 --> 0:12:11.520 Just the fact, right, And it's interesting, I mean, obviously 0:12:11.559 --> 0:12:13.880 we don't want to speculate, but it is interesting that 0:12:13.920 --> 0:12:18.280 Iran made the ceasefire in Lebanon so kind of central 0:12:18.559 --> 0:12:21.080 to a lot of their demands, right, Yeah. 0:12:21.120 --> 0:12:23.840 It's not that surprising to me, I think, because they 0:12:24.200 --> 0:12:27.640 see this as saving has Bottler, so like it's it's 0:12:27.640 --> 0:12:29.880 like it's almost like an easy thing to do. 0:12:29.960 --> 0:12:32.079 It doesn't cost them anything. In a sense. 0:12:32.800 --> 0:12:35.040 It would have cause put pressure on the Israelis, which 0:12:35.040 --> 0:12:37.319 they're happy to do since Israel and America started the 0:12:37.360 --> 0:12:40.360 war against Iran in the first place, and it would 0:12:40.679 --> 0:12:43.920 you know, give some kind of breathing space for their 0:12:44.840 --> 0:12:47.640 main ally in Lebanon, which is has Botler. Yeah, So 0:12:47.679 --> 0:12:49.480 any and of itself, I don't think it's surprising that 0:12:49.520 --> 0:12:52.640 they included it. Maybe they knew that Lebanon would have 0:12:52.679 --> 0:12:56.680 rejected officially given the position of the Lebanese government you 0:12:56.720 --> 0:13:00.440 know thus far, and I can't know for sure, but yeah, 0:13:00.440 --> 0:13:02.160 and in of itself, it doesn't surprise me that they 0:13:02.200 --> 0:13:04.360 went for this because one other thing I should say 0:13:04.679 --> 0:13:07.319 that they were proposing in that MoU is a so 0:13:07.360 --> 0:13:11.240 called deconfliction cell, the details of which are not entirely 0:13:11.240 --> 0:13:13.600 clear to me yet and at this point may never 0:13:13.640 --> 0:13:16.560 happen anyway. But the way it's been interpreted that I 0:13:16.600 --> 0:13:20.079 saw is that it would see its influence in Lebanon historied. 0:13:20.400 --> 0:13:22.600 So there's also like a self interest in all of that, 0:13:23.320 --> 0:13:26.320 but not in a militarily occupying way. So for me, 0:13:26.440 --> 0:13:29.120 it's not that the option has been either an amazing 0:13:29.160 --> 0:13:32.360 option or a bad option. It's more like either we 0:13:32.400 --> 0:13:35.559 get the Iran option, which is not ideal but self functional, 0:13:36.040 --> 0:13:38.400 or a catastrophic option, which is the one that we 0:13:38.480 --> 0:13:39.559 actually got with these RAA. 0:13:39.520 --> 0:13:43.280 Its right, And I mean we've had some episodes about Iran. 0:13:43.440 --> 0:13:46.800 I've hosted a few people about Iran, and I think 0:13:46.960 --> 0:13:51.719 it bears repeating that their strategy, their ability to kind 0:13:51.720 --> 0:13:56.280 of withstand even this level of severe warfare in the 0:13:56.360 --> 0:14:00.880 latest escalation, has depended on their allies in the region 0:14:01.000 --> 0:14:05.240 and kind of the diffusion of Iranian power to nonstate 0:14:05.280 --> 0:14:10.240 actors essentially. So, what was the public reaction to the 0:14:10.280 --> 0:14:14.679 Lebanese government signing this agreement? The Lebanese public reaction, to 0:14:14.720 --> 0:14:16.000 be clear, Yeah. 0:14:16.040 --> 0:14:18.760 The most immediate reaction on this hit has been by 0:14:19.320 --> 0:14:21.680 of course, by Hesballa, and it's ally mL in which 0:14:21.720 --> 0:14:24.240 they you know, they burned stuff down, they yelled, they 0:14:24.320 --> 0:14:26.480 threw stuff at the cops and stuff like that. The 0:14:26.560 --> 0:14:29.080 Secretary General of Hasballa, as I said, has declared did 0:14:29.120 --> 0:14:32.240 not avoid and so on. As for the rest of 0:14:32.240 --> 0:14:34.720 the country, there hasn't been any kind of mobilization against it, 0:14:34.760 --> 0:14:38.800 but they shouldn't be interpreted as consent. It's more, I think, 0:14:38.840 --> 0:14:41.080 in my view that the Lebanese population as a whole 0:14:41.120 --> 0:14:44.440 has been exhausted by nearly three years of war now 0:14:44.640 --> 0:14:47.600 and there is an appetite for kind of diplomacy. In fact, 0:14:47.640 --> 0:14:50.480 there's been a pole, a nation white pole that was 0:14:50.520 --> 0:14:53.000 just released a few days ago that says that roughly 0:14:53.000 --> 0:14:55.960 fifty four percent of the population support the plomacy versus 0:14:56.000 --> 0:14:59.440 thirty five percent that support armed resistance. Now the fift 0:15:00.000 --> 0:15:01.720 and that support the plomacy, which is you know, not 0:15:01.840 --> 0:15:04.960 just over half. It's not because they believe this is 0:15:05.000 --> 0:15:07.120 the best option. It's more that they believe I think, 0:15:07.120 --> 0:15:09.800 this is my interpretation. It's more that I think most 0:15:09.840 --> 0:15:12.480 people genuinely believe that there are no other options. So 0:15:12.480 --> 0:15:15.360 it's more like, I think a reflection of how desperate 0:15:15.480 --> 0:15:18.840 the situation is more than anything else. It should not 0:15:18.920 --> 0:15:21.800 be confused with any kind of like warming up towards Israel. 0:15:21.880 --> 0:15:25.880 And that sample, which again was Nationloyd, eighty seven percent 0:15:26.040 --> 0:15:29.120 of people in Lebanon identified Israel as their main enemy 0:15:29.600 --> 0:15:33.080 versus fifty one percent that identified America and thirty eighty 0:15:33.080 --> 0:15:34.440 percent that identified Iran. 0:15:35.000 --> 0:15:36.320 And this is a cost sects. 0:15:36.360 --> 0:15:38.360 So usually when you see the reporting, you could be 0:15:38.400 --> 0:15:40.560 led to believe that it's only Shiahs and Lebanon that 0:15:40.600 --> 0:15:42.920 opposed Israel, but actually it is really a cost sect 0:15:42.960 --> 0:15:45.680 that Israel is a deeply unpopular state in Lebanon, which 0:15:45.720 --> 0:15:48.040 is not surprising because it's been bombing Lebanon for on 0:15:48.120 --> 0:15:49.920 and off of decades now, right. 0:15:50.160 --> 0:15:52.360 You've written about this for nine seven two mag you 0:15:52.400 --> 0:15:54.920 have another article coming out, I'm sure, or it's already out. 0:15:54.960 --> 0:15:56.800 I'm not sure, but I will definitely link it in 0:15:56.800 --> 0:15:59.800 the show notes by the time this episode airs. Is 0:15:59.840 --> 0:16:03.520 there anything you feel like we missed and that listeners 0:16:03.520 --> 0:16:03.920 should know. 0:16:04.240 --> 0:16:06.800 It's very difficult to know where things are heading in 0:16:06.880 --> 0:16:10.000 terms of the security situation in Lebanon. I would argue 0:16:10.000 --> 0:16:10.400 that kind of. 0:16:10.400 --> 0:16:13.720 The specter of a civil war, whatever that actually looks like, 0:16:14.560 --> 0:16:16.880 is never too far away, and hasn't been too far 0:16:16.920 --> 0:16:19.840 away for a while now. I don't think it's likely 0:16:19.960 --> 0:16:23.720 in the traditional sense of like multiple armed actors in 0:16:23.760 --> 0:16:27.160 the near future, largely because I think the population is 0:16:27.200 --> 0:16:28.080 really exhausted. 0:16:28.640 --> 0:16:29.360 But there israelly. 0:16:29.440 --> 0:16:33.160 War on Lebanon has created kind of this fault line 0:16:33.680 --> 0:16:36.560 that's very very difficult, I think to overcome now. And 0:16:36.600 --> 0:16:39.440 it's not again a fault line between pro isiin and 0:16:39.480 --> 0:16:42.360 anti Israel. Both sides of this fault line are technically 0:16:42.360 --> 0:16:45.360 anti Israel. It's more of like what the priority should 0:16:45.360 --> 0:16:48.440 be for the Lebanese states and sense for a lot 0:16:48.480 --> 0:16:51.680 of people who are from southern Lebanon that is currently 0:16:51.720 --> 0:16:55.040 as we're speaking, still being bombed. It is giving the 0:16:55.120 --> 0:16:57.520 sense that the rest of the country is abandoning them, 0:16:58.200 --> 0:17:01.440 and the sort of grievances is quite literally what gave 0:17:01.520 --> 0:17:04.480 us has Buddler in the first place. Hazbola was created 0:17:04.520 --> 0:17:06.720 in the mid eighties. This was a couple of years 0:17:06.720 --> 0:17:09.359 to three years after the Israeli occupation of southern Lebanon 0:17:09.440 --> 0:17:11.840 really started, which was not even the first one. It 0:17:11.920 --> 0:17:13.680 was the second one. It was just the biggest one. 0:17:14.040 --> 0:17:17.600 It would last for eighteen years. And in those eighteen years, 0:17:17.640 --> 0:17:21.320 this obscure group that did not really exist grew in 0:17:21.520 --> 0:17:24.159 popularity because they were the most effective one, thanks to 0:17:24.200 --> 0:17:27.000 the fact that Iran was backing them until they became 0:17:27.040 --> 0:17:29.919 the fact of king makers of Lebanese politics for a 0:17:29.920 --> 0:17:33.959 couple of decades after that. So here it is not 0:17:34.000 --> 0:17:36.719 even that I feel that history will just repeat itself 0:17:36.960 --> 0:17:40.080 and whatnot. It's more that there doesn't seem to be 0:17:40.320 --> 0:17:46.560 any actual path forward that proposes any alternative to people 0:17:46.640 --> 0:17:49.159 from southern Lebanon, which is roughly a fifth of the 0:17:49.200 --> 0:17:51.880 country in terms of both sides, more or less in population. 0:17:52.040 --> 0:17:54.640 More or less, those people have nowhere else to go. 0:17:54.880 --> 0:17:56.600 They will go back to their homes when they can. 0:17:56.680 --> 0:17:58.760 They go back to their lands if their homes are destroyed, 0:17:58.760 --> 0:18:00.760 and they will try and rebuild as they have done 0:18:00.800 --> 0:18:03.960 already in the past, if not once, sometimes more than once. 0:18:04.720 --> 0:18:06.200 And if there isn't. 0:18:05.920 --> 0:18:09.639 A solution for them, that is just a fair solution 0:18:09.760 --> 0:18:13.000 that brings them justice, that stops the Israeli bombings and 0:18:13.119 --> 0:18:17.320 permanently forces the Israelis out of Lebanon. There's going to 0:18:17.400 --> 0:18:19.840 be some force somewhere that's going to find a way 0:18:19.880 --> 0:18:23.479 to appeal to that population, and if they're not offered 0:18:23.520 --> 0:18:26.639 an alternative, they will seek that alternative, which again is 0:18:26.680 --> 0:18:30.440 the history has well in the first place. So as 0:18:30.560 --> 0:18:33.920 much as I oppose has Bola for very Lebanese reasons, 0:18:34.359 --> 0:18:36.960 and as the Lebanese myself because of the Secanism and 0:18:36.960 --> 0:18:41.679 authoritaranism and so on, that's a completely separate question for me. 0:18:42.400 --> 0:18:45.520 Then the right of people who are under military occupation 0:18:45.680 --> 0:18:48.879 to resist that military occupation, because that is actually a 0:18:48.960 --> 0:18:53.240 right that's guaranteed under international law. And I'm really worried 0:18:53.440 --> 0:18:56.080 as now, and I'm not just speaking for myself here, 0:18:56.119 --> 0:18:59.359 that's virtually everyone I know that the situation is getting 0:18:59.400 --> 0:19:03.400 to the point where essentially the Libanese state is hoping 0:19:04.000 --> 0:19:07.399 that the Americans would just pressure the Israelis, and the 0:19:07.400 --> 0:19:08.919 way it's been happening as of now is that they 0:19:08.960 --> 0:19:11.200 would pressure them here and they're a bit but not much, 0:19:11.240 --> 0:19:12.560 and then the rest of the time they just let 0:19:12.600 --> 0:19:15.679 them do whatever they want with American text money. Of course, 0:19:16.400 --> 0:19:19.520 if they don't actually force the Israelis to withdraw from Lebanon, 0:19:20.000 --> 0:19:24.320 it can create like a whole different political beast in 0:19:24.359 --> 0:19:26.000 a sense that would be even more violent. 0:19:26.040 --> 0:19:29.639 I think we're specifically talking about Lebanon, but this is 0:19:29.680 --> 0:19:32.679 the case in so many contexts in the region, is 0:19:32.720 --> 0:19:39.320 that when the conflicts are unresolved, when the violence is unresolved, 0:19:39.720 --> 0:19:44.280 then it'll only perpetuate more violence. Everyone I know has 0:19:44.320 --> 0:19:47.360 been warning about that in every context in Palestine, in Lebanon. 0:19:48.680 --> 0:19:50.560 So it's extremely depressing. 0:19:51.119 --> 0:19:51.720 But thank you so. 0:19:51.720 --> 0:19:55.200 Much for sharing your insights with us, and I will 0:19:55.280 --> 0:19:58.800 link Alia's work in the show notes, and yeah, help 0:19:58.920 --> 0:19:59.840 you all stay safe. 0:20:00.040 --> 0:20:11.640 Thanks Denna. 0:20:12.840 --> 0:20:15.160 Welcome back to It could Happen here. 0:20:15.240 --> 0:20:16.240 I'm Robert Evans. 0:20:16.359 --> 0:20:19.920 This is a podcast about things falling apart, and that's 0:20:19.960 --> 0:20:22.639 happening in a lot of places right now. But not 0:20:22.800 --> 0:20:26.760 every place also has things regularly unfortunately falling from the sky. 0:20:27.119 --> 0:20:30.520 But that's life in Ukraine for a lot of people, 0:20:30.640 --> 0:20:33.800 including our guests today, every single day, because they're still 0:20:34.000 --> 0:20:37.680 under invasion from the Russian Federation, which I guess we're 0:20:37.680 --> 0:20:42.080 still calling it the Federation. Romeo Kokreatsky, Welcome back to 0:20:42.119 --> 0:20:42.480 the show. 0:20:42.560 --> 0:20:43.160 How are you doing? 0:20:43.280 --> 0:20:45.680 I mean, I know it's not great, so I don't 0:20:45.680 --> 0:20:46.479 know why I'm asking. 0:20:47.280 --> 0:20:50.560 Yeah, thanks for having me back on. It's been a while. 0:20:51.160 --> 0:20:55.680 Yeah, yeah, like you mentioned it, it's not great, especially 0:20:55.760 --> 0:20:59.560 for me personally. My neighborhood's been targeted by ballistics twice 0:20:59.560 --> 0:21:02.280 in the past two weeks, one of which hit a 0:21:02.520 --> 0:21:06.359 improperly stored munitions dump and blew up half the neighborhood. 0:21:06.840 --> 0:21:09.080 So that's that's been fun to deal with. 0:21:10.040 --> 0:21:12.159 I mean, we have other stuff to talk about, but 0:21:12.200 --> 0:21:14.080 I do want to just kind of talk about what 0:21:14.119 --> 0:21:16.959 life has been like like in terms of dealing with that. 0:21:17.040 --> 0:21:19.120 I mean, thank god you have not been hit, neither 0:21:19.160 --> 0:21:21.680 has your home, but like on a day to day basis, 0:21:22.280 --> 0:21:26.680 how are y'all enduring? You know, so many years passed 0:21:26.720 --> 0:21:28.320 when this escalated. 0:21:28.440 --> 0:21:32.280 Most recently, honestly, I had thought, prior to half my 0:21:32.320 --> 0:21:36.320 neighborhood being blown up that I basically gotten numb to 0:21:36.400 --> 0:21:36.880 the bombing. 0:21:37.119 --> 0:21:39.800 Yeah, turns out that's not true. Yeah, that makes sense. 0:21:39.880 --> 0:21:42.840 Turns out I was just completely lying to myself. Yeah. 0:21:42.880 --> 0:21:47.280 I have mortal dread pretty much all the time. Every night, 0:21:48.040 --> 0:21:51.280 I am desperately checking every single monitoring channel I have 0:21:51.359 --> 0:21:54.919 access to and praying that the Russians aren't going to 0:21:54.920 --> 0:21:56.560 shoot us. And if they do shoot us, I then 0:21:56.640 --> 0:21:59.119 have to think, Hey, should I wake my wife and 0:21:59.240 --> 0:22:01.879 sun up? Should we go down to the shelter? Is 0:22:01.880 --> 0:22:04.320 there any point We live in the fifteenth floor, so 0:22:04.800 --> 0:22:06.880 we'd have to walk. What if a missile hits while 0:22:06.920 --> 0:22:07.919 we're in the stairwell? 0:22:08.880 --> 0:22:13.320 Yeah. And it's a little tiring. It's a little tiring. 0:22:13.440 --> 0:22:17.920 Yeah, to constantly live your life with the feeling that 0:22:18.080 --> 0:22:20.480 you may die at any goddamn moment. 0:22:20.520 --> 0:22:21.960 I'm not even in the military. 0:22:22.280 --> 0:22:25.600 Yeah, I am pretty much constantly afraid for my life 0:22:25.640 --> 0:22:27.639 and of course the life of my family and friends. 0:22:28.160 --> 0:22:31.199 Every morning after a mass attack, I have to call 0:22:31.359 --> 0:22:35.000 or text every single journalist who works for me make 0:22:35.000 --> 0:22:39.200 sure that they're still alive. Yeah, And so far, everything's 0:22:39.240 --> 0:22:42.960 been clear, everything's been clear for five years, but you 0:22:43.040 --> 0:22:46.360 really have to wonder how long can can one's luck last. 0:22:46.600 --> 0:22:48.479 Yeah, it's like you were talking about, you know, the 0:22:48.480 --> 0:22:52.440 moment you start to feel like, you know, maybe I've hardened, 0:22:52.520 --> 0:22:55.040 or maybe like I've gotten past the point that this 0:22:55.080 --> 0:22:59.200 can affect me. Is the moment where something, you know, happens. 0:23:00.080 --> 0:23:02.679 I feel so awful that like the constant state of 0:23:02.800 --> 0:23:05.960 like panic, fear, arousal that everyone has to be in 0:23:06.040 --> 0:23:09.000 over there because they're just shooting missiles and your home 0:23:09.040 --> 0:23:11.080 every day is just it's hideous. 0:23:11.440 --> 0:23:12.280 Yeah, it's not great. 0:23:13.000 --> 0:23:15.080 I haven't left the country since the start of the 0:23:15.080 --> 0:23:17.439 full scale Yeah, And to be quite honest, I'm not 0:23:17.520 --> 0:23:22.879 sure how I would do once this threat is no 0:23:22.960 --> 0:23:26.160 longer above my head. It's it's hard to imagine going 0:23:26.200 --> 0:23:28.920 to sleep and not wondering whether I'm going to wake 0:23:29.000 --> 0:23:32.119 up in the next like the next morning. It sounds 0:23:32.119 --> 0:23:35.800 a little absurd, but then I think someone about three 0:23:35.840 --> 0:23:39.639 hundred kilometers away has made a decision to lob multi 0:23:39.720 --> 0:23:45.760 hundred kilogram warheads at the general area of where I 0:23:45.800 --> 0:23:48.440 live within two to three kilometers. 0:23:48.560 --> 0:23:51.560 That is not a largery No, No, it really isn't. 0:23:52.640 --> 0:23:56.040 No, I mean ballistic missiles you know, often can go thousands. Like, 0:23:56.080 --> 0:23:58.359 that's so easy to build something that you could just 0:23:58.359 --> 0:23:59.720 fire blindly into a city. 0:24:00.080 --> 0:24:00.520 This point. 0:24:00.880 --> 0:24:02.879 That's why war looks like this for most of the 0:24:02.880 --> 0:24:04.879 people involved in it, right Like, for all the movies 0:24:04.920 --> 0:24:07.600 are about the guys like kicking indoors and shit on 0:24:07.640 --> 0:24:10.439 the front lines. The vast majority of everyone's experience of 0:24:10.440 --> 0:24:13.200 war is shit falling on you from the fucking sky 0:24:13.480 --> 0:24:16.679 or exploding in traffic or something like that, right Like, 0:24:16.720 --> 0:24:20.000 that's the reality. I'm fucking sorry, man. 0:24:20.840 --> 0:24:23.720 Yeah, And in Kiev, honestly, we don't even have as 0:24:23.800 --> 0:24:27.760 bad Yeah here, son, they're just doing a human sofariti. 0:24:27.800 --> 0:24:30.120 They've been doing that, yeah, I don't know, like six 0:24:30.160 --> 0:24:30.680 months now. 0:24:31.119 --> 0:24:35.040 The front line is right over basically the river, and 0:24:35.200 --> 0:24:38.520 they the Russians, just send drones to hunt people in 0:24:38.560 --> 0:24:41.719 the streets just for fun, you know, funzies for the lulls. 0:24:43.320 --> 0:24:46.639 So as bad as I have to here, sometimes I 0:24:46.680 --> 0:24:49.040 read the stories I'm publishing and I'm like, man, thank god, 0:24:49.080 --> 0:24:50.760 I don't live in that place. 0:24:50.840 --> 0:24:52.760 Think I don't know anyone from met City. 0:24:53.119 --> 0:24:55.719 Everything becomes so relative after a while. I mean, it's 0:24:55.760 --> 0:24:56.879 the only way to stay sane. 0:24:57.440 --> 0:24:58.120 Even though your. 0:24:58.080 --> 0:25:02.359 Sheer situation is objectively unreasonable and impossible, you kind of 0:25:02.440 --> 0:25:05.399 naturally just look over to whoever's got it worse, I mean, 0:25:05.440 --> 0:25:07.520 which says something beautiful. I guess if you'll let it. 0:25:07.600 --> 0:25:10.840 But you know, I guess that's one way of looking 0:25:10.880 --> 0:25:11.199 at it. 0:25:11.320 --> 0:25:12.480 Fuck man, I'm sorry. 0:25:12.800 --> 0:25:13.280 I know. 0:25:14.280 --> 0:25:16.520 I brought you on today to talk about some of 0:25:16.560 --> 0:25:20.760 the political changes that have been pretty massive that have 0:25:20.880 --> 0:25:23.320 just just hit the Ukrainian government as the result of 0:25:23.359 --> 0:25:27.639 the sacking of Mikaylo Federov. But that also feels like 0:25:28.600 --> 0:25:32.200 we should talk about that some I just I don't know. 0:25:32.720 --> 0:25:34.840 Talking to you reminds me of how much I even 0:25:34.920 --> 0:25:38.560 let myself overhear focus on war in terms. 0:25:38.240 --> 0:25:39.240 Of stuff like that. 0:25:39.320 --> 0:25:42.480 Right, these like moves by governments and moves by forces, 0:25:43.280 --> 0:25:47.160 which by default means excizing the majority of what's happening 0:25:47.160 --> 0:25:49.160 from your mind, because in some times, I mean, sometimes 0:25:49.160 --> 0:25:50.800 it's just too big to think about otherwise. 0:25:50.880 --> 0:25:53.119 Right, But like it's no, that's exactly right. 0:25:53.359 --> 0:25:57.000 Yeah, whenever there's any sort of domestic, local intrigue, I 0:25:57.000 --> 0:25:58.200 am just overjoyed. 0:25:58.200 --> 0:26:00.200 I'm excited. Again's something. 0:26:01.800 --> 0:26:03.520 I know a lot of people wanted to be war 0:26:03.560 --> 0:26:06.359 correspondents and like be there in the trenches. And I 0:26:06.359 --> 0:26:09.679 have a lot of friends. My buddy Dylan Burns. I 0:26:09.720 --> 0:26:13.680 saw a clip of him just getting shelled last week summer. 0:26:13.720 --> 0:26:16.720 I think, come Zepparisia front. Yeah, that wasn't what I 0:26:16.720 --> 0:26:19.520 wanted to do. I became a journalist because I love politics. 0:26:22.040 --> 0:26:26.320 The envy, the pettiness thing goes all the little like 0:26:26.440 --> 0:26:30.240 garbage bullshit that makes up the experience of human politics. 0:26:30.240 --> 0:26:32.680 That's what calls to me in my dark, little shriveled heart. 0:26:33.200 --> 0:26:36.760 So whenever I have the chance to engage in just 0:26:37.240 --> 0:26:40.800 domestic political bullshit, I feel overjoyed. 0:26:40.880 --> 0:26:42.000 That is fantastic. 0:26:42.240 --> 0:26:45.760 Well good, okay, Well let's talk about some domestic political 0:26:45.800 --> 0:26:49.000 bullshit because there's been a wild train of it in 0:26:49.040 --> 0:26:52.399 the last couple of days. I'm just gonna let you 0:26:52.440 --> 0:26:54.080 go after starting this off. But like kind of what 0:26:54.400 --> 0:26:58.639 prompted this is On July fifteenth of this year, Vladimir Zolensky, 0:26:58.800 --> 0:27:02.840 the Ukrainian president, fired or dismissed MIKHAILI. Federov, who was 0:27:02.840 --> 0:27:05.920 the Minister of Defensive Ukraine and Federov he'd been the 0:27:05.960 --> 0:27:09.640 president's social media marketer initially. Right like that, back during 0:27:09.640 --> 0:27:12.720 he was when he was campaigning, way before his involvement 0:27:12.800 --> 0:27:15.000 in the military, if I'm remembering correctly. 0:27:15.160 --> 0:27:18.320 Yeah, he was a not just social media he was 0:27:18.560 --> 0:27:21.720 the young it guy. He was the it right, all 0:27:21.840 --> 0:27:26.479 the IT infrastructure from SMM, from social media to the 0:27:26.520 --> 0:27:29.400 actual physical infrastructure itself, that was all Federoff. 0:27:29.440 --> 0:27:32.959 He was like the it dude for the vi Lenski administration. 0:27:33.520 --> 0:27:37.160 Yeah, and he's only had the position for about six months. 0:27:37.200 --> 0:27:40.359 He was appointed in January, but it's been an incredibly 0:27:40.560 --> 0:27:41.879 popular six months. 0:27:42.000 --> 0:27:42.200 Right. 0:27:42.600 --> 0:27:46.560 He is widely popular in Ukraine. There were large protests 0:27:46.600 --> 0:27:49.000 following his dismissal, and he got a lot of credit 0:27:49.080 --> 0:27:53.159 for his use of drone warfare and particularly some of 0:27:53.160 --> 0:27:55.320 the promises he was making. And some people would say 0:27:55.320 --> 0:27:58.480 some of the promises that he fulfilled about drone warfare, right, 0:27:58.840 --> 0:28:00.920 And one of the issues that he had as he 0:28:01.040 --> 0:28:03.840 kind of clashed, as I understand it with an older 0:28:03.920 --> 0:28:08.040 General Sirski, who was much more of a conventional weapons gain. 0:28:08.080 --> 0:28:10.680 I think like the big fight that Spurtlus came over 0:28:10.760 --> 0:28:13.960 like a fight over munitions, right, Federoff was canceling an 0:28:14.040 --> 0:28:16.080 order of artillery shells or something like that, and it 0:28:16.240 --> 0:28:18.760 kind of embodied the greater conflict between them. 0:28:18.800 --> 0:28:21.960 It seems like, yeah, that's basically right. 0:28:22.560 --> 0:28:26.280 Federoff prior to taking the Missary Defense position, like I said, 0:28:26.280 --> 0:28:28.679 he was the it guy, and he had the Minister 0:28:28.760 --> 0:28:31.840 of Digital Transformation because we have a whole ministry set 0:28:31.920 --> 0:28:35.440 up to digitize our government and we've got the DA 0:28:35.480 --> 0:28:38.400 app and a couple of good results from it. So 0:28:38.520 --> 0:28:42.160 he had a relatively high level popularity compared to the 0:28:42.240 --> 0:28:47.080 typical Ukrainian official coming into the MOD position, and he 0:28:47.160 --> 0:28:51.120 became popular, or I guess his popularity grew not so 0:28:51.360 --> 0:28:54.640 much because he was doing drones. Like the transformation to 0:28:54.720 --> 0:28:58.760 drones occurred pretty much from the start of the right, Yes, 0:28:59.000 --> 0:29:01.960 every single union, and it has been ordering and begging 0:29:02.040 --> 0:29:06.200 and getting drones however they can since literally. 0:29:05.840 --> 0:29:07.120 The folk scale started. 0:29:07.560 --> 0:29:10.560 However, what Federal promised to do and what he did, 0:29:10.600 --> 0:29:13.240 which is what won him a lot of accolades with 0:29:13.600 --> 0:29:17.120 the common soldier, is he said we would actually get 0:29:17.160 --> 0:29:20.000 you drones instead of you know, you having to go 0:29:20.040 --> 0:29:23.880 through fifteen layers of bureaucracy procurement to maybe sign up 0:29:23.880 --> 0:29:27.040 for a list where you might get delivered something in 0:29:27.120 --> 0:29:30.200 four months somewhere we'll set up a simple direct system 0:29:30.240 --> 0:29:32.760 where you can request the equipment you want and you'll 0:29:32.760 --> 0:29:36.480 get it. Well, it's not quite as simple. He develops 0:29:36.480 --> 0:29:39.480 some gamification crap which you can get into later. 0:29:39.560 --> 0:29:41.080 I'm not yeah, I'm not a fan. 0:29:41.200 --> 0:29:44.120 It is really interesting, but yeah, yeah, he's tried some 0:29:44.160 --> 0:29:45.320 really fascinating stuff. 0:29:45.400 --> 0:29:49.160 Yeah, he's tried a lot of things and it has worked. Yeah, 0:29:49.200 --> 0:29:51.320 people have started getting drones. Like I know guys in 0:29:51.360 --> 0:29:55.160 the front who had complained previously that they were unable 0:29:55.160 --> 0:29:58.040 to get equipment even though they're posted, they're deployed, they 0:29:58.080 --> 0:30:01.160 have a mission and commands just like, oh, we don't 0:30:01.200 --> 0:30:05.640 know where your drone is. That started to be resolved. However, 0:30:06.200 --> 0:30:08.640 in order to do this you need money. Right to 0:30:08.680 --> 0:30:12.400 buy drones, you need money, So the Ministry Defense controls 0:30:12.480 --> 0:30:16.200 the actual monetary flows. They have to actually sign off 0:30:16.280 --> 0:30:20.680 on whatever the request from the General Staff or the military. 0:30:20.280 --> 0:30:22.040 Is to purchase this or that equipment. 0:30:22.040 --> 0:30:25.960 System the way it typically works because the Ministry Defense 0:30:26.040 --> 0:30:28.880 is a civilian institution and the military is obviously a 0:30:28.920 --> 0:30:34.400 military institution. Typically speaking, in wartime, civilians are intended to 0:30:34.960 --> 0:30:38.640 defer to military expertise. Right, So if the army goes, 0:30:39.280 --> 0:30:41.640 we need I don't know, one hundred thousand and one 0:30:41.680 --> 0:30:44.880 to fifty five millimeters shells. The Ministry of Defense is 0:30:45.440 --> 0:30:49.320 not really supposed to say you know what, nah, we 0:30:49.360 --> 0:30:54.200 think you need this. Instead, this is the kind of 0:30:54.240 --> 0:30:58.720 the crux of the conflict here is that federal off 0:30:58.960 --> 0:31:01.560 seeing these requests from Serski. Like you said, he's a 0:31:01.680 --> 0:31:06.880 very conventional guy, a very conventional Soviet general. He grew 0:31:06.960 --> 0:31:10.440 up in Moscow, went to the Moscow Read Army Academy. 0:31:10.800 --> 0:31:12.920 To be quite honest, he's pretty much a Soviet general 0:31:12.960 --> 0:31:13.400 through and through. 0:31:13.920 --> 0:31:16.840 My understanding is he is a reputation for accepting pretty 0:31:16.840 --> 0:31:21.640 gnarly casualties. Yeah, fair or unfair, he's gotten that reputation. 0:31:21.760 --> 0:31:23.600 I'm not like an expert on his record. 0:31:23.720 --> 0:31:27.160 Yeah, absolutely, yes, he has that reputation. And like you, 0:31:27.240 --> 0:31:30.360 I'm not a military guy, yeah, a non army expert. 0:31:30.440 --> 0:31:33.960 I've never studied strategy or tactics aside from meme posting, 0:31:35.080 --> 0:31:38.640 So I have no idea how you know true or 0:31:38.720 --> 0:31:41.040 not true? It is obviously you can look at the 0:31:41.040 --> 0:31:44.360 lost records of the units that Sirski said to personally favored, 0:31:44.360 --> 0:31:46.840 and he can see that they are higher but are 0:31:46.840 --> 0:31:49.760 they hired because they are simply being used more often. 0:31:50.520 --> 0:31:52.880 Like it's a war, there are going to be casualties. 0:31:52.920 --> 0:31:56.000 There are simply no way to remove that fact. Or 0:31:56.080 --> 0:31:59.040 are they higher because his commanders are incompetent in throwing. 0:31:58.840 --> 0:31:59.640 Away human meat. 0:32:00.120 --> 0:32:02.520 You know, you've got people that'll say one way, you've 0:32:02.520 --> 0:32:06.120 got people to say the other way. But regardless, Serski 0:32:06.200 --> 0:32:10.560 would continue to request these kind of conventional munitions, and 0:32:10.720 --> 0:32:13.640 according to Serski's version, at least Federoff will just completely 0:32:13.640 --> 0:32:17.080 ignore this and by whatever he wanted the ministry by, 0:32:17.120 --> 0:32:19.960 typically this was drones. There was a funny meme I 0:32:20.000 --> 0:32:24.320 saw of Sierski complaining to Federoff, with the text reading, 0:32:24.840 --> 0:32:27.760 the buzzing of your stupid drones are hurting the infantry 0:32:27.800 --> 0:32:32.560 to advance. To give you a sense of how Ukrainians viewed. 0:32:32.320 --> 0:32:35.200 This, Oh man, that's beautiful. 0:32:36.040 --> 0:32:38.280 I really love that, meaning really that's beautiful. 0:32:39.320 --> 0:32:40.600 That's going in a history book. 0:32:54.360 --> 0:32:55.480 From the feder Off side. 0:32:55.600 --> 0:32:59.920 What they say the conflict is, which, knowing how you 0:33:00.040 --> 0:33:03.600 Kraine works, I tend to believe them, is that in 0:33:04.200 --> 0:33:10.240 Federalf's attempts to move these cash flows from buying conventional 0:33:10.320 --> 0:33:11.840 munitions to buying drones. 0:33:12.520 --> 0:33:14.280 He started stepping on a lot. 0:33:14.120 --> 0:33:17.400 Of toes in the General Staff because this is Ukraine, 0:33:17.560 --> 0:33:20.520 because this is defense procurement. If you want to buy 0:33:20.560 --> 0:33:24.520 something from a domestic supplier, the chances are that supplier 0:33:24.680 --> 0:33:28.440 is owned somehow via cl company connected to some general 0:33:28.760 --> 0:33:30.720 or some highly placed military officials. 0:33:31.400 --> 0:33:34.640 That's just the nature of the game. Obviously. 0:33:35.040 --> 0:33:38.480 Let's say if the General Staff requests one hundred thousand 0:33:38.560 --> 0:33:43.120 shells and they source half of it from the Ukrainian firm, 0:33:43.200 --> 0:33:45.080 there's a good chance that there's a lot of generals 0:33:45.080 --> 0:33:49.040 that are going to be building themselves in Uvilla after this. If, however, 0:33:49.120 --> 0:33:52.280 you don't put that order in and instead buy, you know, 0:33:52.560 --> 0:33:56.680 drones from the five hundred or one thousand different garage manufacturers, 0:33:56.720 --> 0:33:59.840 which is how the drone industry works here. That money 0:33:59.880 --> 0:34:04.440 is not going into people's pockets, and those people get upset. 0:34:05.120 --> 0:34:07.760 Those people start complaining that you are not a team player, 0:34:08.280 --> 0:34:10.480 that they can't work with you, that you don't listen 0:34:10.520 --> 0:34:14.200 to them, they stopped taking your coals, etc. Which is 0:34:14.640 --> 0:34:17.680 exactly what we saw in the conflict between Federoff and 0:34:17.719 --> 0:34:21.320 Serski on the reporting of it. So that's that's basically 0:34:21.360 --> 0:34:24.279 the gist of it is Federoff try to use his 0:34:24.320 --> 0:34:28.600 own judgment and stepped on people's toes, redirected money, and 0:34:28.960 --> 0:34:32.040 Sierski and the general staff were not fans. 0:34:32.239 --> 0:34:34.359 I doubt Sirski cared really all that much. 0:34:34.400 --> 0:34:37.360 However, he needs to keep everyone happy, and the officer 0:34:37.400 --> 0:34:42.200 class is very heavily he involved in this creating military salaries. 0:34:42.280 --> 0:34:44.239 Even officer salaries are not great. 0:34:44.880 --> 0:34:47.319 No, and there's a lot of corruption and procurement, and 0:34:47.320 --> 0:34:50.279 a lot of allegations of corruption and procurement, which is 0:34:50.280 --> 0:34:55.120 not something any military doesn't have to be honest. But yeah, 0:34:55.200 --> 0:34:55.879 that makes sense. 0:34:56.719 --> 0:35:00.120 So finally he gets to the point where Serski he 0:35:00.280 --> 0:35:02.480 went to Zelenski and said, look, you have to get 0:35:02.520 --> 0:35:03.120 rid of this guy. 0:35:03.160 --> 0:35:04.080 I can't work with him. 0:35:04.320 --> 0:35:07.160 Then Federoff separately went to Zelenski and said, look, you 0:35:07.200 --> 0:35:08.239 have to get rid of this guy. 0:35:08.560 --> 0:35:09.560 I can't work with him. 0:35:10.239 --> 0:35:13.640 And then Zelenski goes to a private meeting with his 0:35:13.719 --> 0:35:17.200 party in Parliament and says, hey, well, they both said 0:35:17.200 --> 0:35:19.520 they can't work with each other, and I kind of 0:35:19.600 --> 0:35:22.080 need them to work with each other, so I should 0:35:22.160 --> 0:35:25.160 fire them both. But I can't fire Sirski yet, so 0:35:25.280 --> 0:35:28.600 instead I'll fire Federoff and that's what kicked off this 0:35:28.640 --> 0:35:29.320 whole shebang. 0:35:29.719 --> 0:35:31.480 How much do you buy? Because The Times had a 0:35:31.520 --> 0:35:34.400 piece recently that was kind of, I mean, quoting some 0:35:34.520 --> 0:35:37.640 insiders alleging that this was partly to do with Zelensky 0:35:37.680 --> 0:35:41.040 being jealous of federov popularity. And I've heard I've heard 0:35:41.120 --> 0:35:43.640 rumors of that before that has not seemed to be 0:35:43.680 --> 0:35:46.520 like the most I don't know, believable answer. So I 0:35:46.560 --> 0:35:48.799 was kind of surprised to see the Times give so 0:35:48.880 --> 0:35:51.640 much credence to it. But I mean, do you feel 0:35:51.680 --> 0:35:53.919 like that's credible? Is that something you hear a lot? 0:35:54.120 --> 0:35:55.920 Or is that where's that coming from? 0:35:55.960 --> 0:35:58.319 I guess, I mean I have considered this a lot, 0:35:58.360 --> 0:36:02.400 because it has been something saying, yeah, when Valari's Illusioni 0:36:02.640 --> 0:36:06.840 was made to step down as top general and he 0:36:07.040 --> 0:36:11.400 was replaced by Sirski, A lot of the kind of 0:36:11.400 --> 0:36:15.000 speculation why this move was made was because Illusioni was 0:36:15.120 --> 0:36:19.000 very quickly becoming the most popular political figure, public figure 0:36:19.040 --> 0:36:23.920 in Ukraine. And then we saw Budhanav krol Badanov, the 0:36:24.239 --> 0:36:27.760 head of military intelligence who is now Zelenski's chief of staff, 0:36:28.480 --> 0:36:32.120 when his star was rising and Zelenski had to fire 0:36:32.160 --> 0:36:36.480 your mock. He took the country's top spy basically and 0:36:36.560 --> 0:36:39.279 put him as chief of staff. Now you don't hear 0:36:39.280 --> 0:36:44.640 about Padanov at all except for some unflattering rumors on 0:36:44.880 --> 0:36:50.160 anonymous telegram channels. So there is kind of a pattern 0:36:50.440 --> 0:36:57.120 you can see with Zelensky seemingly defusing popular people around 0:36:57.200 --> 0:36:59.600 him so they are no longer in a position where 0:36:59.600 --> 0:37:03.600 they can be so popular. And in solutionies case, he 0:37:03.680 --> 0:37:07.319 recently announced that whenever we do have presidential elections, he 0:37:07.360 --> 0:37:09.839 does plan to stand in them. Right, so he has 0:37:10.000 --> 0:37:15.359 in fact directly declared he will be politically opposing Zelenski whenever. 0:37:15.080 --> 0:37:16.480 We get back to normal politics. 0:37:17.400 --> 0:37:21.040 So how do I say this? I am a cynical bastard. 0:37:21.600 --> 0:37:25.240 I will believe the worst about anyone, especially a ego 0:37:25.360 --> 0:37:29.640 driven TV star slash politician. It is not difficult for 0:37:29.719 --> 0:37:32.239 me in my citizens oh God, to look at a 0:37:32.239 --> 0:37:35.160 man and say, huh, you know what, he probably doesn't 0:37:35.239 --> 0:37:39.000 like being out shown on the stage. At the same time, 0:37:39.760 --> 0:37:42.799 I like to hope that Zelenski has the understanding that 0:37:42.800 --> 0:37:45.560 we're fighting a full scale war and that his ego 0:37:45.760 --> 0:37:49.120 is unnecessary and detrimental to the war. 0:37:49.160 --> 0:37:49.440 Effort. 0:37:50.120 --> 0:37:53.560 But but the truth of the matter is I have 0:37:53.640 --> 0:37:56.719 no idea. It certainly can be construed that way. 0:37:56.800 --> 0:37:57.319 Let's say that. 0:37:57.480 --> 0:38:01.360 I don't think construing events that that way is unfair 0:38:01.400 --> 0:38:04.600 to Zelenski. I think that's it's a reasonable interpretation. Yeah, 0:38:04.800 --> 0:38:07.160 based on the actions that he's taken, and based on 0:38:07.880 --> 0:38:10.799 you know, the rumors and so on that come out 0:38:10.800 --> 0:38:11.800 of the office the President. 0:38:12.160 --> 0:38:13.920 Yeah, I mean that that makes sense what you're saying. 0:38:14.000 --> 0:38:15.200 I don't have trouble believing that. 0:38:15.440 --> 0:38:15.600 Now. 0:38:15.960 --> 0:38:17.640 One of the things I have noticed is I've kind 0:38:17.640 --> 0:38:20.319 of read it into Federov and I'm wondering, and this 0:38:20.440 --> 0:38:23.719 is we're kind of our veering into some military theory here. 0:38:23.760 --> 0:38:25.480 But it is something that concerns me when I kind 0:38:25.480 --> 0:38:28.440 of look at some of the allegations about what he believes. 0:38:28.440 --> 0:38:30.960 And I'm not sure if this is entirely fair to him, 0:38:31.239 --> 0:38:34.360 but it seems like his critics within the Ukrainian military 0:38:35.000 --> 0:38:36.880 seem to believe that he basically is a believer that 0:38:37.040 --> 0:38:40.719 drones and robotics can handle a huge amount of the 0:38:40.760 --> 0:38:43.000 fighting load, right, and that this is like a major 0:38:43.040 --> 0:38:47.160 solution to the manpower crisis, to the extent that is 0:38:47.200 --> 0:38:50.160 sometimes accused of believing that they can handle much more 0:38:50.280 --> 0:38:52.480 of the load than is really realistic. In a way 0:38:52.520 --> 0:38:55.000 that sometimes sounds similar to me to what some people 0:38:55.040 --> 0:38:57.759 said about like air force generals and kind of the 0:38:57.800 --> 0:39:00.000 post World War two period where there's this big understanding 0:39:00.000 --> 0:39:02.520 and all we need is air power. That seems to 0:39:02.560 --> 0:39:04.680 be like the allegations against federof that he's saying, all 0:39:04.719 --> 0:39:07.319 we need is drone power and robotics, and we can 0:39:07.440 --> 0:39:10.080 kind of use that to fill in every gap, and 0:39:10.120 --> 0:39:13.120 there's a very reasonable critique that that's not sufficient. Now, 0:39:13.120 --> 0:39:14.839 I don't know if that's fully fair to feder Off, 0:39:14.840 --> 0:39:17.120 but it seems to be like that's how he's being characterized, 0:39:17.360 --> 0:39:18.719 certainly by his opponents. 0:39:19.400 --> 0:39:20.120 Having listened to. 0:39:20.120 --> 0:39:23.040 Him speak, I'll say that the characterization is a little 0:39:23.040 --> 0:39:26.400 bit off, Like he might honestly believe that drones and 0:39:26.480 --> 0:39:29.920 robotics have to completely replace human warfare, but it's not 0:39:29.960 --> 0:39:32.480 like he lives in a fantasy world where he understands 0:39:32.480 --> 0:39:34.840 that that's the possibility that we can implement right now, right. 0:39:34.960 --> 0:39:39.560 It's more that he faces the banal mathematical fact that 0:39:39.600 --> 0:39:42.000 we cannot match Russia. 0:39:42.160 --> 0:39:47.319 We are a much smaller country. It is mathematically impossible, right. 0:39:47.400 --> 0:39:52.240 Add into that the general unpopularity of mobilization, the whole 0:39:52.280 --> 0:39:57.120 palsification stuff, the fact that no one trusts our aging 0:39:57.239 --> 0:40:00.400 Soviet officer class to value their life or contrab utan 0:40:00.920 --> 0:40:05.640 they are drafted or joined the military. That together leads 0:40:05.640 --> 0:40:09.520 Federoff to the I think pretty obvious conclusion that the 0:40:09.560 --> 0:40:13.200 only possible thing we can do to even start to 0:40:13.320 --> 0:40:17.680 match Russia in manpower is heavily embraced robotics. Now, I 0:40:17.680 --> 0:40:20.080 do want to say a couple of things. Federoff is 0:40:20.120 --> 0:40:23.399 a libertarian in the American sense, right. And he's very young. 0:40:23.440 --> 0:40:26.280 He's thirty five, He's he's literally my age, Jesus. 0:40:26.880 --> 0:40:29.640 And this was back I think twenty seventeen or eighteen 0:40:30.440 --> 0:40:34.160 he ran as part of we had a tiny libertarian 0:40:34.200 --> 0:40:37.000 movement called the five to ten Party, which their idea 0:40:37.080 --> 0:40:40.960 was a flat five percent vat tax, flat ten percent 0:40:41.000 --> 0:40:44.200 something else I mean, in stupid libertarian shit. I didn't 0:40:44.280 --> 0:40:47.000 ever pay much attention to it because I always ask 0:40:47.120 --> 0:40:49.440 them how old their girlfriend is and if they need 0:40:49.440 --> 0:40:52.200 to use the garciat is my paying libertarians there? 0:40:52.400 --> 0:40:53.160 Yeah? 0:40:53.520 --> 0:40:57.319 And again, so he may very well believe that this 0:40:57.480 --> 0:41:02.080 is the case that humans needed taking out of what's 0:41:02.120 --> 0:41:04.719 the military euphemism, humans have to be taken out of. 0:41:04.680 --> 0:41:08.120 The kill chain, right right, removed from the kill chain. Yeah, 0:41:08.160 --> 0:41:09.359 I love the term kill chain. 0:41:09.920 --> 0:41:12.880 He made very well believe that he is good personal 0:41:12.920 --> 0:41:16.839 friends with Alex Karp, the CEO of Palenteer. That's very 0:41:17.000 --> 0:41:21.840 obviously the omni surveillance courts were headed by the devil himself, 0:41:21.880 --> 0:41:25.200 Peter Teel, so there's a lot of red flags. 0:41:25.840 --> 0:41:28.040 One of the first staymans he made after getting sacked 0:41:28.200 --> 0:41:30.360 was that he's been already gotten a bunch of offers 0:41:30.360 --> 0:41:33.239 from different Silicon Valley companies. Someone close to him said that, 0:41:33.640 --> 0:41:34.960 not that he that he hasn't taken. 0:41:35.080 --> 0:41:35.920 No, no, he said that. 0:41:36.000 --> 0:41:38.600 During the briefing, I was listening and it was him. Yeah, 0:41:38.680 --> 0:41:41.120 Alex Karp has already called me and offered me a job. 0:41:41.160 --> 0:41:44.879 Oh he said, Alex Karp. Okay, great, yeah, great. I'm 0:41:44.920 --> 0:41:48.640 just remembering from a news article, are right now that said. 0:41:48.640 --> 0:41:50.080 I wanted to be fair to him because one thing 0:41:50.080 --> 0:41:52.439 he also gets a lot of credit for is over 0:41:52.480 --> 0:41:54.640 the last six months, which was not in his position 0:41:54.719 --> 0:41:58.160 for long. But it's been a reasonably good six months 0:41:58.200 --> 0:42:01.080 compared to some of the pre couple of years. Right, 0:42:01.120 --> 0:42:03.279 the front is stabilized in a lot of areas, and 0:42:03.360 --> 0:42:06.759 there's been an incredibly successful campaign to damage Rush's oil 0:42:06.840 --> 0:42:09.319 refining capacity that's taken out out a quarter of it, right, 0:42:09.360 --> 0:42:11.480 and those are seen part of why he's so popular. 0:42:11.480 --> 0:42:13.600 I would imagine there's a debate as to how much 0:42:13.760 --> 0:42:16.279 credit does he deserve for both of those things. Both 0:42:16.320 --> 0:42:19.200 of those things have happened right over the last six months. 0:42:19.280 --> 0:42:20.040 Yeah, exactly. 0:42:20.320 --> 0:42:24.880 And the hope was that if he was allowed to 0:42:24.920 --> 0:42:27.680 complete his reform, so the next big thing that he 0:42:27.800 --> 0:42:31.560 had planned to focus on was ground robotics, ground drones. 0:42:32.160 --> 0:42:35.040 The hope was that if he had actually been able 0:42:35.040 --> 0:42:38.160 to implement plans, we would see the same kind of 0:42:38.239 --> 0:42:44.719 sea change away from human soldiery, human infantry into robotics soldiers, 0:42:44.800 --> 0:42:47.640 just as we saw drones replace the sniper team, the 0:42:47.760 --> 0:42:51.120 artillery team, the mortar team. You know, so many of 0:42:51.239 --> 0:42:54.680 these kind of fundamental roles that we thought a modern 0:42:54.719 --> 0:42:58.040 military monitoring mines, armed military needs. Turns out you could 0:42:58.040 --> 0:43:01.239 replace all of them with drones. We don't know if 0:43:01.239 --> 0:43:03.840 that's going to be true for groundrones, but that was 0:43:03.880 --> 0:43:08.600 going to be his next project, and it definitely helped. 0:43:08.360 --> 0:43:10.080 Bolster his standing. 0:43:10.280 --> 0:43:13.480 Let's say, when he goes, well, first off, I'm getting 0:43:13.520 --> 0:43:17.120 you the drones, and second off, we don't need to 0:43:17.120 --> 0:43:20.920 throw away Ukrainian lives on worthless, neat assaults to win 0:43:21.040 --> 0:43:24.400 back half a kilometer of territory. We can use easily 0:43:24.560 --> 0:43:26.000 replaceable robotics instead. 0:43:26.480 --> 0:43:29.359 Now that's a very hard thing to argue with, I mean, 0:43:29.440 --> 0:43:42.839 especially given how it's functioned. You know, it is worth 0:43:42.880 --> 0:43:44.759 kind of noting that he was brought in as well 0:43:44.800 --> 0:43:48.040 to solve the manpower crisis, and that that that certainly 0:43:48.080 --> 0:43:51.520 has not been solved, although you know, he was in 0:43:51.560 --> 0:43:54.360 there for six months. But like that still continues to 0:43:54.400 --> 0:43:58.239 be a significant issue, even with the advent of a 0:43:58.239 --> 0:44:02.280 lot more robotic fighter, which is, you know, proven successful 0:44:02.280 --> 0:44:04.640 in certain areas of the front, certainly, but it continues 0:44:04.680 --> 0:44:08.640 to be a pretty contentious and mobile front in some 0:44:08.800 --> 0:44:09.680 areas as well. 0:44:10.400 --> 0:44:11.280 Yeah, exactly. 0:44:11.680 --> 0:44:15.000 And the fact is we still have I don't know, 0:44:15.000 --> 0:44:17.520 maybe let's say another ten to fifteen years to reach 0:44:17.560 --> 0:44:21.400 the terminator feature where you just you don't need human infantry. 0:44:21.480 --> 0:44:23.760 It is a liability if you have flesh and blood 0:44:23.800 --> 0:44:27.080 guys on the battlefield. We're not quite there yet. You 0:44:27.120 --> 0:44:30.920 still do need flesh and blood meet zat humans to 0:44:31.400 --> 0:44:36.640 do things, so molization is obviously a thing. But I 0:44:36.680 --> 0:44:40.120 gotta say, every single Minister of Defense we've had since 0:44:40.120 --> 0:44:43.080 the start of the full scale has had the brief 0:44:43.239 --> 0:44:47.279 of reforming mobilization, so he is hardly the first guy 0:44:47.320 --> 0:44:50.719 to fail at right, the general staff was given the 0:44:50.760 --> 0:44:54.640 brief of reforming mobilizations. Zelenski himself said that the office 0:44:54.640 --> 0:44:58.120 of the President has the brief of performing mulization veeder Off. 0:44:58.200 --> 0:45:02.239 During his kind of exit press conference that he gave 0:45:02.520 --> 0:45:05.920 after being fired, he said this a very interesting thing. 0:45:06.520 --> 0:45:09.560 He said that in order to do mobilization form in Ukraine, 0:45:09.680 --> 0:45:13.360 we need a new social contract. The fundamental social contract 0:45:13.560 --> 0:45:17.720 between Ukrainians and the state is seen by the average 0:45:17.800 --> 0:45:22.480 Ukrainian to be broken because of the continuous and constant 0:45:22.480 --> 0:45:27.960 corruption scandals, because of the seeming you know, Soviet indifference 0:45:28.040 --> 0:45:32.279 and callousness towards human life. All of these factors make 0:45:32.360 --> 0:45:36.760 the Ukrainian populace not especially want to die for the state. 0:45:36.840 --> 0:45:40.720 It's not that we don't want to die for Ukraine, 0:45:41.640 --> 0:45:44.160 but no one wants to die for the Ukrainian state, 0:45:44.719 --> 0:45:49.719 and this is the fundamental issue. And until that is addressed, 0:45:49.880 --> 0:45:53.799 there is there is no solution for mobilization except for 0:45:53.840 --> 0:45:58.120 greater repression, right like round people up even more, use 0:45:58.239 --> 0:46:00.799 greater force. That's the only thing you can possibly do. 0:46:01.200 --> 0:46:04.480 There is no soft handle to fix that. It's not 0:46:04.640 --> 0:46:07.959 even really a question of money, because if you think 0:46:08.000 --> 0:46:10.000 that once you're drafted, they're gonna throw you in the 0:46:10.000 --> 0:46:12.359 back of a van, drive into the mill force, stick 0:46:12.400 --> 0:46:15.319 you there for two weeks, not teach you anything, yell 0:46:15.360 --> 0:46:17.799 and beat you, then drive you to the zero line 0:46:17.840 --> 0:46:21.759 and leave you there. That's what the average Ukrainian men 0:46:22.000 --> 0:46:24.720 man thinks is going to happen to them if they're drafted. 0:46:24.920 --> 0:46:28.080 And the fact is we have lots of stories exactly 0:46:28.160 --> 0:46:32.000 like that, so it's not exactly an unfounded fear. And 0:46:32.120 --> 0:46:35.239 until that's addressed, until the Ukrainian state can you know, 0:46:35.560 --> 0:46:39.520 plausibly tell the Ukrainian people, look, we care about your lives. 0:46:39.680 --> 0:46:42.200 We are doing this because we are doing this to survive, 0:46:42.320 --> 0:46:45.719 not because some general wants an extra badge or an 0:46:45.800 --> 0:46:49.840 extra villa or something. And at that point mobilization reform 0:46:49.960 --> 0:46:53.800 can't start. But without that change, you're not gonna see anything. 0:46:53.880 --> 0:46:57.160 No amount of bureaucratic wrangling or raising salaries is going 0:46:57.239 --> 0:46:59.360 to result in any kind of mobilization. 0:46:59.480 --> 0:47:02.120 Bump, Well, man, is there anything else you wanted to 0:47:02.120 --> 0:47:04.160 get to today. I think that was a really good 0:47:04.200 --> 0:47:04.759 point to make. 0:47:07.280 --> 0:47:10.319 I'll say this that we did see that the protests 0:47:10.760 --> 0:47:13.960 did pay off, So I think that's the one aspect 0:47:14.000 --> 0:47:15.239 of this we haven't talked about. 0:47:15.239 --> 0:47:17.120 Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a very good point. 0:47:17.239 --> 0:47:22.319 Why he is actually doing this, or why he is 0:47:22.360 --> 0:47:26.040 actually taking steps to remove Serski is because of the protests. 0:47:26.440 --> 0:47:28.479 So we didn't even get to that so much because 0:47:28.480 --> 0:47:30.719 that just happened hours before we recorded this. But he 0:47:30.760 --> 0:47:34.880 has announced that Serski is now being removed. Right, yes, yes, yes, 0:47:35.280 --> 0:47:36.560 just happened. Sorry, it was. 0:47:36.480 --> 0:47:39.320 Always going through case once Serski's name was out in public. 0:47:39.880 --> 0:47:42.520 The country's top general cannot be this controversial. He cannot 0:47:42.560 --> 0:47:47.279 be the guy everyone is talking about derogatorily in a 0:47:47.360 --> 0:47:49.520 national or you just you need to have the trust 0:47:49.640 --> 0:47:52.880 of both the people and the troops. And Serski once 0:47:53.040 --> 0:47:55.400 this scandal had reached the level it was clear that 0:47:55.440 --> 0:47:58.000 he no longer had the Jews to continue. But again, 0:47:58.080 --> 0:48:01.840 the reasons Lunky made these changes is because of the protests. 0:48:02.000 --> 0:48:05.240 So we learned about Federov's. 0:48:04.600 --> 0:48:07.080 Dismissal like late at night, I want to say, in 0:48:07.120 --> 0:48:11.160 the fifteenth, and then that evening a couple of uh 0:48:11.360 --> 0:48:14.920 I think it was one ex volunteer, one ex soldier 0:48:15.640 --> 0:48:18.879 posted that we everyone should gather out on Twitter, I think, 0:48:18.960 --> 0:48:21.440 and then that that game steam and that was the 0:48:21.440 --> 0:48:23.759 start of the kind of five day protests. I don't 0:48:23.760 --> 0:48:25.840 know if they're going to continue today now that Serski 0:48:25.840 --> 0:48:28.640 has been replaced, but they've been happening every single day 0:48:28.680 --> 0:48:29.120 this week. 0:48:29.600 --> 0:48:33.320 And again people came out first to kind. 0:48:33.120 --> 0:48:36.080 Of keep to protest Federalf's removal, to say, hey, keep Federov. 0:48:36.160 --> 0:48:39.759 Then it became clear that Federalf himself had refused to 0:48:39.840 --> 0:48:43.000 continue to work with his Zelenski team. He pretty much 0:48:43.040 --> 0:48:45.760 told Zlenski that I don't want any job. I wanted 0:48:46.000 --> 0:48:48.120 the job that I had, but since you made that 0:48:48.200 --> 0:48:50.719 no longer possible, I don't want to work for you. 0:48:51.440 --> 0:48:55.760 Once that dynamic became clear, the protests shifted more towards 0:48:55.920 --> 0:48:58.920 trying to get Serski fired. Were to get him to 0:48:58.960 --> 0:49:01.759 resign than to get feder Off back in office, which 0:49:01.840 --> 0:49:02.920 is unlikely to. 0:49:02.880 --> 0:49:04.839 Happen, but the protests have been. 0:49:05.160 --> 0:49:07.440 First off, they occurred not just in Kiev, but pretty 0:49:07.480 --> 0:49:10.480 much in every major city, even the frontline cities, even 0:49:10.520 --> 0:49:13.680 in Zupperisia, in Harkiev. One of my journalists was in 0:49:13.719 --> 0:49:16.600 Harkyev and did a report from their protest, and these 0:49:16.600 --> 0:49:19.759 are people who are getting air bombed during the day 0:49:20.560 --> 0:49:22.839 and they're gathering in the center of their city in protesting. 0:49:23.440 --> 0:49:25.520 The scale of it, the speed of it in the 0:49:25.680 --> 0:49:30.600 general societal agreement is really what what gave these protests 0:49:30.880 --> 0:49:33.719 their statem. The same with the pro Nabu protests that 0:49:33.760 --> 0:49:36.719 we saw a couple of years backer last year, the 0:49:36.800 --> 0:49:41.120 same kind of dynamic, same kind of protesting class. Let's 0:49:41.120 --> 0:49:47.760 say it's younger people, you know, from eighteen to like thirty, 0:49:47.880 --> 0:49:53.000 typically more liberal, more progressive. However, we come out in 0:49:53.040 --> 0:49:55.719 protest not for I mean, sometimes we do come out 0:49:55.719 --> 0:49:58.719 for gay rights, but currently it's more to correct our 0:49:58.840 --> 0:50:01.680 government's person all choices than anything else. 0:50:02.040 --> 0:50:06.359 Right, Yeah, I mean, I guess it is positive that 0:50:06.400 --> 0:50:09.640 it matters still, you know, which is certainly in some 0:50:09.719 --> 0:50:12.920 ways a legacy still lingering of the Midon right is 0:50:12.920 --> 0:50:15.200 that the government's not going to ignore that. 0:50:15.719 --> 0:50:16.160 Yeah. 0:50:16.320 --> 0:50:19.280 Yeah, I wouldn't just say it's positive. I'd be quite honest, 0:50:19.400 --> 0:50:22.040 I cannot think of a single other democratic country on 0:50:22.080 --> 0:50:27.360 the planet that is as responsive to the undifferentiated, random 0:50:27.400 --> 0:50:28.240 cries of the masses. 0:50:28.239 --> 0:50:30.759 Then there's this huge negative to that. 0:50:31.000 --> 0:50:34.480 Yeah, I mean I say it like this, and it 0:50:34.600 --> 0:50:37.560 might sound like I'm saying this derogatorily, but I'm not. No, 0:50:38.000 --> 0:50:42.880 I think, quite frankly, pretty much all liberal democratic nations 0:50:42.880 --> 0:50:46.040 in the twenty first century have almost completely abandoned the 0:50:46.040 --> 0:50:50.520 democratic part. Either people vote for local parties that simply 0:50:50.520 --> 0:50:52.520 don't matter, and all the decisions are made in board 0:50:52.600 --> 0:50:55.279 rooms that they have less than zero impact in. They 0:50:55.320 --> 0:50:58.480 got on protest and nothing happens except some kids get 0:50:58.480 --> 0:51:01.759 beaten up by cops and then nothing fundamentally changes that. 0:51:01.760 --> 0:51:04.400 That is not true in Ukraine. We have seen multiple 0:51:04.440 --> 0:51:07.600 times where protesters go out with a concrete call and 0:51:07.640 --> 0:51:10.759 the government heeds that call. It doesn't simply ignore us, 0:51:10.800 --> 0:51:14.440 it doesn't just beat us up. It's fundamentally democratic in 0:51:14.480 --> 0:51:17.960 a way that I have not seen any other country 0:51:18.200 --> 0:51:19.600 in the world replicate so far. 0:51:20.080 --> 0:51:23.800 Yeah, that is very much worth continuing the note and acknowledge. Although, 0:51:23.800 --> 0:51:26.560 as you said, a mixed bag because the voice of 0:51:26.600 --> 0:51:30.640 the people is not always correct about aspects of strategy 0:51:30.640 --> 0:51:33.160 and governance, as a lot of. 0:51:33.080 --> 0:51:33.880 Places have learnt. 0:51:33.960 --> 0:51:37.160 Yeah, exactly, all right man, Well, do you want to 0:51:37.160 --> 0:51:39.319 plug anything before you come out here? Tell people where 0:51:39.320 --> 0:51:39.880 they can find you. 0:51:40.480 --> 0:51:40.719 Yes. 0:51:41.320 --> 0:51:43.920 I am the managing editor of The New Voice of Ukraine, 0:51:44.239 --> 0:51:50.360 which is Ukraine's best and premier English language daily u site. 0:51:50.400 --> 0:51:53.520 You can read us at English nv dot UA really 0:51:53.600 --> 0:51:57.080 easy to remember, that's English nvt UA and listen to 0:51:57.160 --> 0:52:00.960 Ukraine Without Hype, which is a podcast from myself and 0:52:01.080 --> 0:52:04.920 my colleague Anthony Bartaway, and you can find us wherever 0:52:05.080 --> 0:52:06.719 podcasts are listened to. 0:52:07.000 --> 0:52:09.560 Just search Ukraine without Hype. Awesome. 0:52:09.719 --> 0:52:12.359 Well, thank you all for listening, Thank you Romeo for 0:52:12.400 --> 0:52:16.120 showing up again, and we'll be back tomorrow with something else. 0:52:28.840 --> 0:52:31.800 Hello everyone, and welcome to the show. My name is James. 0:52:32.160 --> 0:52:34.560 We're starting Gangs. I've forgot to press the record button 0:52:34.880 --> 0:52:37.440 and I am very lucky to be joined by Wendy 0:52:37.440 --> 0:52:39.360 Frye and we're going to talk about a piece that 0:52:39.400 --> 0:52:44.000 Wendy did for cow Matters about the FEDS DHS buying 0:52:44.320 --> 0:52:47.560 detention centers in California. Hi Wendy, Welcome to the show. 0:52:48.160 --> 0:52:49.400 Hi, James, thanks for having me. 0:52:49.719 --> 0:52:54.120 Yeah, okay, so let's begin I suppose by summarizing this article. Well, 0:52:54.120 --> 0:52:55.640 link to it, right, and I think everyone should read it. 0:52:55.800 --> 0:52:58.040 It's a really good piece of reporting. But can you 0:52:58.120 --> 0:53:02.120 explain what is happening here with these two detention centers? 0:53:02.520 --> 0:53:03.759 Sure? Yeah, thank you so much. 0:53:03.840 --> 0:53:03.960 So. 0:53:04.800 --> 0:53:08.120 Last week, course of it, one of the largest private 0:53:08.160 --> 0:53:11.640 prison companies in the country in the nation, a publicly 0:53:11.640 --> 0:53:15.640 traded company, announced that they had sold two of their 0:53:15.680 --> 0:53:19.760 properties to the Department of Homeland Security for a billion 0:53:19.920 --> 0:53:23.160 and a half dollars. And those two facilities are two 0:53:23.200 --> 0:53:26.719 of the largest immigration detention facilities in California. O time 0:53:26.719 --> 0:53:29.640 mesa detention center in San Diego County that has a 0:53:29.680 --> 0:53:33.000 capacity of just a little under two thousand beds. And 0:53:33.040 --> 0:53:36.080 then the other one is the newly opened California City 0:53:36.239 --> 0:53:39.160 Facility up in Kern County, and that one's just a 0:53:39.160 --> 0:53:41.880 little bit bigger with a capacity of twenty five hundred beds. 0:53:42.320 --> 0:53:45.080 And we learned the details about the sale through this 0:53:45.120 --> 0:53:47.960 filing with the Security Exchange Commission. Like I said, because 0:53:47.960 --> 0:53:49.880 it's a publicly traded company, they have to make some 0:53:50.040 --> 0:53:53.359 of the information about this deal public. And we learned 0:53:53.400 --> 0:53:56.440 that the federal government paid seven hundred and thirty nine 0:53:56.480 --> 0:53:58.400 million I think for O time MESA, and then the 0:53:58.440 --> 0:54:00.560 other one was I think about seven hundred and thirty 0:54:00.640 --> 0:54:05.200 million for California City. And we've done some additional reporting 0:54:05.239 --> 0:54:08.640 too since that article came out, and we just last Friday, 0:54:08.680 --> 0:54:11.640 we're talking with the San Diego County appraiser, the assessor's 0:54:11.640 --> 0:54:15.960 office and current county found out that the last appraise 0:54:16.080 --> 0:54:18.880 value on these properties was about a quarter of what 0:54:18.960 --> 0:54:21.880 the federal government paid for them. So the last appraise 0:54:21.920 --> 0:54:23.920 value I think about one hundred and sixty million for 0:54:24.320 --> 0:54:26.880 O type MESA. I don't have the exact number, but 0:54:27.000 --> 0:54:30.600 around that. So they paid, you know, maybe four times. 0:54:30.760 --> 0:54:32.960 And of course the praise value we have to take 0:54:32.960 --> 0:54:35.319 it sort of with a grain of salt because it's 0:54:35.360 --> 0:54:37.319 not the market value. But it would be very hard 0:54:37.320 --> 0:54:38.880 to figure out what the market value is on a 0:54:38.880 --> 0:54:41.359 property like this because there just aren't very many of them. 0:54:41.400 --> 0:54:44.919 Both places are these huge, brawling federal prisons that don't 0:54:44.920 --> 0:54:47.000 get sold very often, so it's hard to figure out 0:54:47.040 --> 0:54:48.719 what the market value is. But those are the last 0:54:48.719 --> 0:54:49.640 appraise value. 0:54:49.840 --> 0:54:53.280 Yeah, sure, not much, not much. Your market for giant prisons, 0:54:53.320 --> 0:54:54.600 I suppose best. 0:54:54.480 --> 0:54:56.520 Guess, yeah, none much to compare it to as far 0:54:56.560 --> 0:54:59.279 as the sale, right, And on the federal government side, 0:54:59.320 --> 0:55:01.919 on course of excit, they said that this whole thing 0:55:01.960 --> 0:55:05.279 went through a very rigorous process of governmental review and 0:55:05.719 --> 0:55:07.400 that everything is above board there. 0:55:07.520 --> 0:55:11.560 Yeah, so of course they'll say that. Yeah. So these facilities, like, 0:55:12.160 --> 0:55:13.880 they spend a lot of money on them, right, and 0:55:14.120 --> 0:55:15.680 they have a lot of money right now, they're sitting 0:55:15.719 --> 0:55:18.080 on a giant pile of money. Actually, before before we 0:55:18.080 --> 0:55:20.240 talk about what they spent on them, people will remember 0:55:20.640 --> 0:55:23.120 when President Biden came into power, him saying he was 0:55:23.160 --> 0:55:26.400 going to end private prisons, right, so we should just, 0:55:26.760 --> 0:55:31.400 I guess, begin by explaining how that didn't include immigration 0:55:31.520 --> 0:55:34.080 detention and how these places have like as you say, 0:55:34.120 --> 0:55:36.040 they haven't just continued, but in the last two years, 0:55:36.040 --> 0:55:40.480 I guess they're trying to expand immigration detention capacity, right, right. 0:55:40.640 --> 0:55:44.920 Yes, So in California, particularly California, state officials have tried 0:55:44.920 --> 0:55:48.799 to ban private prison companies from operating within the state 0:55:48.840 --> 0:55:53.080 of California, and the Ninth Circuit didn't uphold that. Like 0:55:53.120 --> 0:55:55.680 the California Pass, the law Governor news and signed it. 0:55:55.680 --> 0:55:58.520 It went ended up in court. GEO Group and Course 0:55:58.560 --> 0:56:01.200 of BIC, the two largest private and companies. We're fighting 0:56:01.239 --> 0:56:04.680 against this and they they they won. The ninth Circuit 0:56:04.719 --> 0:56:10.040 upheld that California can't fan these facilities from operating. But 0:56:10.080 --> 0:56:13.799 they have pushed back a lot, and California lawmakers are 0:56:13.800 --> 0:56:16.440 trying to write a series and pass a series of 0:56:16.520 --> 0:56:18.840 laws that would require you know, more of the tax 0:56:18.880 --> 0:56:23.080 revenue from these companies to be you know, absorbed by 0:56:23.080 --> 0:56:27.759 the state and distance in avized. Basically financially disincentivized these 0:56:27.760 --> 0:56:30.680 private prison companies from operating, and that is one of 0:56:30.719 --> 0:56:33.680 the reasons why DHS, in a statement that they put out, 0:56:34.080 --> 0:56:38.000 Jason Sweeney with ICE told me, you know, it's financially infeasible. 0:56:38.000 --> 0:56:40.520 It's become too burdensome from their point of view for 0:56:40.600 --> 0:56:43.960 the private prison companies to operate in California because of 0:56:44.040 --> 0:56:47.799 all the oversight and because of all the you know, pushback, 0:56:47.920 --> 0:56:52.040 the California officials have tried to do and have done 0:56:52.239 --> 0:56:54.200 as much as I can basically. 0:56:53.719 --> 0:56:58.720 On let's talk about this new attempt to grow detention capacity, 0:56:58.760 --> 0:57:03.120 right because they're previous totem was these warehouses where we 0:57:03.160 --> 0:57:05.520 spoke to some folks in social circle on this show, 0:57:05.600 --> 0:57:08.200 such a circle Georgia a while ago about that. So, 0:57:08.600 --> 0:57:10.840 can you give people who haven't been following this little 0:57:10.840 --> 0:57:13.959 synopsis of why they've moved away from the putting human 0:57:14.000 --> 0:57:15.480 beings in warehouses models? 0:57:16.160 --> 0:57:16.600 Sure? 0:57:16.680 --> 0:57:20.000 So the spending bill, the federal spending bill that President 0:57:20.000 --> 0:57:25.640 Trump signed last year, included just the insanely unprecedented amount 0:57:25.680 --> 0:57:29.320 of money for immigration enforcement, like more than even the 0:57:29.480 --> 0:57:32.840 entire budget of the entire federal prison system. Right. It 0:57:32.880 --> 0:57:37.960 includes about forty five billion dollars just for detention capacity alone. 0:57:38.200 --> 0:57:40.600 So they poured a ton that, like you said, they're 0:57:40.640 --> 0:57:43.480 sitting on just this huge pile of cash that they 0:57:43.520 --> 0:57:46.880 have to spend. They have to do something with that money. 0:57:47.160 --> 0:57:49.440 The plan at the beginning of the year were, as 0:57:49.480 --> 0:57:53.200 you mentioned these warehouses, right, that they wanted to from 0:57:53.240 --> 0:57:58.320 their perspective, sort of more intelligently design the both the 0:57:58.440 --> 0:58:03.120 tension capacity and the deportation machine. I think I'm not 0:58:03.160 --> 0:58:05.800 one hundred percent sure which dhf's officials said this. I 0:58:05.840 --> 0:58:08.200 think it was Tom Holman in Phoenix, but it could 0:58:08.200 --> 0:58:10.960 have been another THHS official, But basically they said they 0:58:11.040 --> 0:58:16.320 wanted to design the quote Amazon Prime for humans. So 0:58:16.400 --> 0:58:18.280 like they want to make this as fast and as 0:58:18.280 --> 0:58:20.880 efficient as possible. They want to have a capacity to 0:58:21.040 --> 0:58:24.479 stay up to one hundred thousand people on any given day. 0:58:25.080 --> 0:58:27.840 And they have a ton of cash, cash that they've 0:58:27.840 --> 0:58:30.920 never even seen before, right, So buying up this billion 0:58:30.960 --> 0:58:33.000 and a half dollars of real estate in California is 0:58:33.080 --> 0:58:37.080 feasible to them, and they've signaled that owning it rather 0:58:37.120 --> 0:58:40.240 than leasing it or having Corsivic run it is more 0:58:40.280 --> 0:58:44.280 beneficial to them in not having to comply with the oversight. 0:58:44.720 --> 0:58:48.480 The different inspections and laws that California officials have tried 0:58:48.520 --> 0:58:51.680 to put into place that allows, for example, inspectors with 0:58:51.720 --> 0:58:55.439 the California's Attorney General's office, and there was a twenty 0:58:55.480 --> 0:58:58.200 twenty four law the California past that would allow local 0:58:58.480 --> 0:59:01.360 health inspect inspectors to go in and do a health inspection. 0:59:01.720 --> 0:59:03.960 San Diego County is the only place where they've actually 0:59:04.040 --> 0:59:07.400 tried to do that, and the private company pushed back, 0:59:07.800 --> 0:59:10.720 so they've said, do you just have said in their 0:59:10.760 --> 0:59:14.440 statement that you know, owning this and rather than another 0:59:14.800 --> 0:59:17.240 entity owning it gives them the upper hand as far 0:59:17.280 --> 0:59:20.600 as avoiding some of this oversight and the federal courts 0:59:20.640 --> 0:59:21.560 have upheld that. 0:59:21.640 --> 0:59:25.240 Actually, right, So let's dig into that a little bit. 0:59:25.320 --> 0:59:25.520 Right. 0:59:25.920 --> 0:59:28.600 A lot of people have started paying attention to immigration 0:59:28.920 --> 0:59:33.680 detention approximately halfway through January in twenty twenty five, right, right, 0:59:33.880 --> 0:59:37.360 And if you had been paying attention before in California, 0:59:37.440 --> 0:59:39.800 you would have known that thousands of people were detained 0:59:39.800 --> 0:59:43.680 without food, water, or shelter in the open air for months, 0:59:44.040 --> 0:59:47.520 not like an individual duration stay was at most like 0:59:47.600 --> 0:59:51.400 a week, but that the practice continued in Hercumba, YEP 0:59:51.520 --> 0:59:56.320 in Hukumba and then Sidro. Yeah, in at least three 0:59:56.320 --> 0:59:59.920 places in Hakkumba. I believe there were also other oad 1:00:00.160 --> 1:00:04.600 sites that we didn't find, mut at least I didn't 1:00:04.600 --> 1:00:06.800 know about. And then that also happened in Arizona as well, 1:00:07.080 --> 1:00:09.960 But at that point in time, there was not a 1:00:10.000 --> 1:00:13.160 great deal of an inspection by the county. I saw 1:00:13.200 --> 1:00:17.760 a Office of the Immigration Detention on Bardsman person once 1:00:18.400 --> 1:00:21.040 their visit didn't seem to result in any changes. But 1:00:21.240 --> 1:00:25.200 like has California committed on why they suddenly care about 1:00:25.200 --> 1:00:28.320 the I guess the conditions migrants are detained in When 1:00:28.920 --> 1:00:31.120 they didn't seem to care in a way that mattered 1:00:31.440 --> 1:00:32.200 three years ago. 1:00:32.480 --> 1:00:37.280 Right, they certainly weren't coming out in statements and pushing 1:00:37.320 --> 1:00:40.480 back as hard as we have seen them push back 1:00:40.480 --> 1:00:43.400 against the Trump administration. That's true, And I have asked, 1:00:43.600 --> 1:00:46.600 like top California officials that. In an interview I did 1:00:46.600 --> 1:00:49.600 with the California Attorney General Robbonta, I did ask any. 1:00:49.640 --> 1:00:51.720 I was like, this is my really hard question for you, 1:00:52.000 --> 1:00:55.280 is you know it didn't seem like you were pushing 1:00:55.320 --> 1:00:58.600 back in this same way when you know there were 1:00:58.680 --> 1:01:00.560 babies sheltering and porter right. 1:01:00.760 --> 1:01:04.000 Oh yeah. One night in September, I remember a lady 1:01:04.040 --> 1:01:07.480 breastfeeding a baby. The baby was shivering, which, like it 1:01:07.480 --> 1:01:09.600 there's not a good sign with babies are shivering. And 1:01:09.640 --> 1:01:12.640 like I was warming up milk in the camping stove 1:01:13.200 --> 1:01:16.960 in my truck and my friend was cycling toddlers in 1:01:17.000 --> 1:01:19.040 and out of like a little warming station they built. 1:01:19.280 --> 1:01:21.000 Like I've been through the Darien Gap and that's still 1:01:21.000 --> 1:01:23.120 some of the worst ship that I've ever seen. 1:01:23.360 --> 1:01:26.160 It was horrific, Right, I remember thinking like where is 1:01:26.200 --> 1:01:27.960 the un like, where is like the Red Cross? Like 1:01:28.240 --> 1:01:32.000 this is a humanitarian crisis out here. Yeah, And it 1:01:32.040 --> 1:01:33.880 was in such a remote area it was, so it 1:01:33.920 --> 1:01:37.600 lacks so much visibility, both from the media and you know, 1:01:38.040 --> 1:01:40.560 public officials, and so we did talk about that at 1:01:40.560 --> 1:01:45.080 one point, and Bonto's response was, you know, we had 1:01:45.160 --> 1:01:48.800 a working relationship with the Biden administration that wasn't controversial 1:01:48.920 --> 1:01:52.160 or wasn't adversarial in the way that our relationship is 1:01:52.160 --> 1:01:54.360 with the Trump administration, and so we could work on 1:01:54.440 --> 1:01:57.160 that stuff behind the scenes. Now I know you were 1:01:57.200 --> 1:01:59.840 out there. Anybody who was out there would say, no, 1:02:00.040 --> 1:02:02.440 do you really ever saw the results of that collaboration 1:02:02.640 --> 1:02:06.120 or that work, right, And you know, it is a 1:02:06.160 --> 1:02:09.520 concern for sure that it does seem like California politicians 1:02:09.600 --> 1:02:13.000 do get more bang for their buck in opposing the 1:02:13.040 --> 1:02:16.320 immigration policies that the Trump administration. When it's important to 1:02:16.360 --> 1:02:19.600 note that a lot of this infrastructure, including especially a 1:02:19.640 --> 1:02:21.680 lot of the AI infrastructure that are being used to 1:02:21.720 --> 1:02:26.440 survey people who are against these policies, and the palanteer 1:02:26.520 --> 1:02:29.200 the AI technologies that is being used right now to 1:02:29.280 --> 1:02:33.200 find people and detain them without making the headlines and 1:02:33.240 --> 1:02:36.080 in quite a high profile way as we saw last year. 1:02:36.240 --> 1:02:38.800 All that was put into place by the Biden administration, 1:02:38.960 --> 1:02:41.560 right yea, And so it is important to note that 1:02:41.640 --> 1:02:45.240 for sure, that a lot of these systems that now 1:02:45.280 --> 1:02:48.560 the Trump administration is able to utilize were handed to. 1:02:48.520 --> 1:03:01.920 Them, detained the idea that we have a midterm election 1:03:02.000 --> 1:03:05.400 and the presidential election and they are conducted in a 1:03:05.400 --> 1:03:07.840 way that we kind of are accustomed to with elections, 1:03:07.840 --> 1:03:11.040 and the results are respected. Let's imagine we have a 1:03:11.080 --> 1:03:14.560 Democrat in twenty twenty eight to do the master. The 1:03:15.200 --> 1:03:19.160 FEDS will still own these two giant detention centers. Right. 1:03:19.640 --> 1:03:22.560 The way that immigration, in my experience works is like 1:03:23.080 --> 1:03:26.720 it only seems to move in one direction. I guess, 1:03:26.760 --> 1:03:29.920 like this is why this is such a concern. 1:03:30.320 --> 1:03:33.960 They're seeing themselves. DHS is saying themselves that this is 1:03:34.000 --> 1:03:37.720 a deliberate strategy to make their detention build out more 1:03:37.800 --> 1:03:42.720 permanent and harder to roll back with the changing political wins, right, 1:03:43.320 --> 1:03:45.760 and so they're acknowledging that that that's what they're trying 1:03:45.800 --> 1:03:46.080 to do. 1:03:46.560 --> 1:03:48.960 That's not great. Yeah, yeah, that's a yeah. 1:03:48.960 --> 1:03:50.560 So it's from their own mouths, right, So. 1:03:51.120 --> 1:03:55.240 Yeah, deeply concerning. I wonder though, like previously they've had 1:03:55.280 --> 1:03:58.360 a practice of moving people out of San Diego County. 1:03:58.920 --> 1:04:01.760 I guess the practices are on would there is like 1:04:01.800 --> 1:04:05.400 a number of incidents that I'm aware of where they've 1:04:05.440 --> 1:04:08.240 moved people away from their lawyer in San Diego County 1:04:08.320 --> 1:04:11.080 right to a detention facifity like Dilly or somewhere in 1:04:11.120 --> 1:04:13.720 Texas or something like that. I guess I would make 1:04:13.720 --> 1:04:15.760 that impossibly it did the same as it was before. 1:04:15.760 --> 1:04:18.240 It'll just be from a federal prison to a private prison. 1:04:18.280 --> 1:04:18.680 Maybe. 1:04:18.840 --> 1:04:22.440 Well, it's a less favorable federal jurisdiction right a district, 1:04:22.520 --> 1:04:25.600 so in San Diego, I would say probably it's a 1:04:25.600 --> 1:04:29.000 more favorable outcome to go before a federal district judge 1:04:29.200 --> 1:04:33.360 in San Diego for a possible habeas petition and to 1:04:33.360 --> 1:04:36.480 flow down the process as far as being deported, right, 1:04:36.560 --> 1:04:39.760 I think that that probably happens faster in a federal 1:04:39.960 --> 1:04:41.919 district in Texas than it would here. 1:04:42.040 --> 1:04:42.240 Yeah. 1:04:42.280 --> 1:04:45.600 Yeah, I have heard a lot from families about family 1:04:45.600 --> 1:04:49.720 members being moved out to you know, these very remote 1:04:49.720 --> 1:04:51.160 I mean, there's been an effort for a long time 1:04:51.200 --> 1:04:53.280 to make sure that these facilities are set up in 1:04:53.480 --> 1:04:57.040 very remote areas out of California and in other parts 1:04:57.040 --> 1:05:00.000 of the country, in remote areas that are hard for advocations. 1:05:00.040 --> 1:05:03.440 It's hard for attorneys, hard for journalists like me to 1:05:03.520 --> 1:05:05.920 get to to report what's going on in them. You know, 1:05:06.280 --> 1:05:08.440 it's like six hours to get to California City as 1:05:08.480 --> 1:05:10.600 a drive back made way more times than I want 1:05:10.640 --> 1:05:14.120 to now at this point, right, So you know, it 1:05:14.160 --> 1:05:17.040 does it does impact the amount of resources that people 1:05:17.080 --> 1:05:20.080 can be connected to. It is the biggest expense that 1:05:20.160 --> 1:05:23.640 ICE has is moving people around the country. I remember 1:05:24.000 --> 1:05:28.160 Senator Padilla did say, like it seems sort of illogical 1:05:28.240 --> 1:05:30.360 the way they're moving, Like they're moving people from California 1:05:30.360 --> 1:05:33.760 out to California while they're moving people in other places 1:05:33.760 --> 1:05:36.880 into California, And it seems illogical the way they're moving 1:05:36.920 --> 1:05:39.760 people around. But the impact of that, I don't know 1:05:39.800 --> 1:05:41.920 what their purpose or their intention is of doing that, 1:05:42.000 --> 1:05:44.720 but the impact of is it really disorients people. Right, 1:05:44.760 --> 1:05:45.720 It's like where am I? 1:05:46.000 --> 1:05:47.640 What am I doing? What are the rules here? 1:05:47.720 --> 1:05:50.160 How do I get my phone card set up? It 1:05:50.280 --> 1:05:52.360 takes them days where they're kind of pushed back on 1:05:52.360 --> 1:05:55.600 their heels trying to figure out what the system and 1:05:55.640 --> 1:05:58.600 the guards and the new place where they go. And then, 1:05:58.960 --> 1:06:01.400 like I said, it's only makes it harder for people 1:06:01.480 --> 1:06:03.800 when they get moved around to these different facilities, and 1:06:03.840 --> 1:06:06.520 it's something that we're definitely seeing happen a lot more. 1:06:07.360 --> 1:06:09.280 Definitely hearing it from a lot of families in LA 1:06:10.040 --> 1:06:13.560 of concern about people being moved way out to California City, 1:06:13.640 --> 1:06:15.400 which is like in the middle of the Mohabi Desert, right, 1:06:15.440 --> 1:06:17.080 it's hard for families to get out there. 1:06:17.400 --> 1:06:20.520 Yeah. Yeah, it's like it's a big Kern County I think, right, 1:06:20.520 --> 1:06:23.880 but it's a height from anywhere from any major population 1:06:23.960 --> 1:06:25.880 center in California. It's a long drive. 1:06:26.280 --> 1:06:29.000 Yeah, it's like an hour and forty minutes from like 1:06:29.040 --> 1:06:32.520 the farthest eastern community in LA, like Cheerlea. They have 1:06:32.560 --> 1:06:34.920 an office in like eastern LA, And I think it 1:06:34.960 --> 1:06:36.880 was like an hour and twenty to an hour and 1:06:36.880 --> 1:06:40.560 forty to get to that office from California City. So 1:06:40.600 --> 1:06:42.960 it's just just remote. It's in the middle of nowhere, 1:06:43.040 --> 1:06:43.240 you know. 1:06:43.560 --> 1:06:43.760 Yeah. 1:06:43.960 --> 1:06:45.760 And if you think about where would I put a 1:06:45.760 --> 1:06:47.360 place that's in the middle of nowhere where it have 1:06:47.400 --> 1:06:50.120 the least amount of oversight, right, like that that's the place, 1:06:50.280 --> 1:06:52.880 Like that's definitely where you would pick. 1:06:53.400 --> 1:06:57.080 Yeah, definitely, combat like Auto Mesa detention center, very very 1:06:57.200 --> 1:06:59.040 bad things about what happens there, but like it is 1:06:59.160 --> 1:07:02.240 relatively close, people can get to it. There are almost 1:07:02.320 --> 1:07:05.880 always people there, like outside if someone is released, or 1:07:05.960 --> 1:07:08.680 people protesting what's happening there. Like you say, like it's 1:07:08.720 --> 1:07:11.480 hard even to do things like for someone to get 1:07:11.560 --> 1:07:14.040 money on their on their phone card or like someone 1:07:14.080 --> 1:07:16.080 I've reported on many times on the show was detained 1:07:16.080 --> 1:07:18.760 at Dilly and like it's difficult to work out how 1:07:18.760 --> 1:07:20.880 to like put money on their commentsary so they can 1:07:20.920 --> 1:07:23.760 buy food because the food they get is absolutely awful, 1:07:23.760 --> 1:07:25.440 and things like this. And then every time you move 1:07:25.520 --> 1:07:27.360 that that's different again, right, like. 1:07:27.320 --> 1:07:31.880 It's I was talking to an individual in Al Salvador 1:07:31.960 --> 1:07:35.920 and they were saying that, you know, they were moved 1:07:35.920 --> 1:07:39.400 around maybe nine times before they were deported, and each 1:07:39.440 --> 1:07:41.680 time they got to the different facility was like where 1:07:41.720 --> 1:07:44.520 am I and who who are kind of the leaders 1:07:44.520 --> 1:07:46.720 in this in this place, or like who do I 1:07:46.760 --> 1:07:48.640 talk to because I need to get I need to 1:07:48.640 --> 1:07:51.280 get this worked out. And sometimes they wouldn't even be 1:07:51.360 --> 1:07:53.760 able to get the phone cards set up before the 1:07:53.800 --> 1:07:55.720 next time they got loaded back on a bus to 1:07:55.760 --> 1:07:57.800 go somewhere else. Yeah, so even let their family know 1:07:57.800 --> 1:07:59.560 where they are and That's why it's so concerning that 1:08:00.080 --> 1:08:02.800 ICE is going around opening facilities. Like we had one 1:08:02.880 --> 1:08:05.480 facility open I think also in Current County. It's like 1:08:05.560 --> 1:08:07.560 right next to Golden State Annex, so it's like kind 1:08:07.600 --> 1:08:10.800 of part of that property. But they didn't tell anybody, right, Like, 1:08:11.600 --> 1:08:14.840 nobody knew that this facility was opened until we reported 1:08:14.920 --> 1:08:18.040 on it opening. And you know, if you're a family 1:08:18.040 --> 1:08:20.200 member and you're looking on that ice detainer, you're trying 1:08:20.200 --> 1:08:22.800 to find your family member. If we have these you know, 1:08:22.920 --> 1:08:26.280 almost almost like black site ice detention facilities opening up 1:08:26.280 --> 1:08:28.640 that nobody knows are running, how are you going to 1:08:28.680 --> 1:08:31.200 find your family member if it's not even listed there 1:08:31.200 --> 1:08:33.920 in the facilities, right. I mean, there's been a lot 1:08:33.960 --> 1:08:37.000 of reporting about how sometimes people are disappearing into these systems. 1:08:37.400 --> 1:08:39.559 But that's one of the reasons why California has tried 1:08:39.600 --> 1:08:41.439 to set these laws to say, like you have to 1:08:41.479 --> 1:08:44.479 give the public a certain amount of notice before you 1:08:44.600 --> 1:08:46.840 open a new facility, so that people are aware that 1:08:46.880 --> 1:08:49.400 it's coming and they can have an opportunity to, you know, 1:08:49.439 --> 1:08:52.160 say go to the California City Council meeting and make 1:08:52.160 --> 1:08:56.840 their opposition known. But we've seen both ice and the 1:08:56.960 --> 1:08:59.800 private detention companies have in some cases been able to 1:08:59.800 --> 1:09:01.680 find noise around those rules. 1:09:02.000 --> 1:09:05.519 Yeah, one of I guess the interesting things that we 1:09:05.640 --> 1:09:10.160 have seen in the last maybe six months even maybe 1:09:10.520 --> 1:09:13.120 somewhere there, mostly this year, right, it is like communities 1:09:13.160 --> 1:09:16.320 coming together to oppose these things and data centers, right, 1:09:16.760 --> 1:09:20.720 or like across a wide swath of American politics, Like 1:09:20.920 --> 1:09:22.880 a lot of the folks organizing in social circle and 1:09:22.920 --> 1:09:26.720 not people who I think would generally identify as progressive politically, 1:09:26.800 --> 1:09:30.320 but they were opposed to all the local consequences as 1:09:30.320 --> 1:09:34.080 well as the abuses that happen in these detention centers. 1:09:34.120 --> 1:09:36.960 Like it's definitely getting harder, I guess for them to 1:09:37.200 --> 1:09:40.080 build from scratch detention centers, right. 1:09:40.439 --> 1:09:42.760 That's correct. I mean some of these when at the 1:09:42.800 --> 1:09:44.679 beginning of the year, when they had the warehouse plan 1:09:44.840 --> 1:09:47.400 and they were planning some of these mega detention centers, 1:09:47.439 --> 1:09:50.479 which like they were trying to hold you know, ten 1:09:50.640 --> 1:09:53.559 or twelve thousand people, which is crazy more than rikers, 1:09:53.680 --> 1:09:56.280 right right, Yeah, like the largest would be the largest 1:09:56.320 --> 1:09:59.800 facility anywhere, and you know they were talking about even 1:09:59.800 --> 1:10:03.599 make their own wastewater treatment plants, bringing in their own 1:10:03.800 --> 1:10:07.479 services because the cities where the local municipalities wouldn't be 1:10:07.479 --> 1:10:11.479 able to handle the influx of people, of employees, of 1:10:11.680 --> 1:10:15.000 you know, the roads, all the all the different services. 1:10:15.160 --> 1:10:16.680 And so I think that's one of the things that 1:10:16.720 --> 1:10:20.879 people are realizing is that these properties have an impact 1:10:20.960 --> 1:10:23.160 outside of just the people that they're detaining, right, They 1:10:23.160 --> 1:10:26.040 have an impact, a ripple effect on the entire community. 1:10:26.360 --> 1:10:28.840 And I think people are becoming aware of that now. 1:10:29.400 --> 1:10:32.880 Yeah, definitely, And it seems like, yeah, they're trying to 1:10:32.880 --> 1:10:35.000 do other things, and they saw some of those warehouses 1:10:35.040 --> 1:10:37.120 a loss as well, but it doesn't matter in the 1:10:37.400 --> 1:10:38.840 grand scheme of how much money they have. 1:10:39.720 --> 1:10:41.879 They have to get rid of forty five billion dollars, 1:10:41.920 --> 1:10:45.720 so they really aren't aren't aren't stressing the loss is 1:10:45.760 --> 1:10:49.040 you know, it's a weird problem to have, but they 1:10:49.040 --> 1:10:51.080 feel like they have to spend this forty five billion 1:10:51.200 --> 1:10:52.680 or its kind of like use it or lose it 1:10:52.720 --> 1:10:54.760 if they don't buy the next by I think it's 1:10:54.800 --> 1:10:58.559 three years that they have, so I think we will 1:10:58.600 --> 1:11:01.519 see them buying more property use for sure. I think 1:11:02.160 --> 1:11:05.400 they really have their eye on at Alanto. I said 1:11:05.439 --> 1:11:08.800 a script that like scans the sec to like automatically 1:11:08.880 --> 1:11:11.840 alert me if any of those companies sell anything, Right, No. 1:11:11.920 --> 1:11:12.200 Cool. 1:11:12.320 --> 1:11:14.920 The other thing to keep in mind too about this is, 1:11:14.920 --> 1:11:17.719 you know, the federal government doesn't pay local and state taxes, 1:11:18.320 --> 1:11:21.879 so where they go into these small cash strap cities 1:11:21.920 --> 1:11:24.320 like California City and say, hey, you're going to get 1:11:24.360 --> 1:11:26.800 two million dollars a year in tax revenue from this 1:11:26.880 --> 1:11:29.640 facility opening. And that's kind of how they convince or 1:11:29.640 --> 1:11:33.920 like they try to win over the local politicians with hey, 1:11:34.000 --> 1:11:36.439 we need this money, we need this facility to lower 1:11:36.439 --> 1:11:38.559 our water bills and stuff like that. But none of 1:11:38.600 --> 1:11:40.519 that is going to It's like a bait and switch. Right, 1:11:40.520 --> 1:11:42.400 They're not going to be getting that two million dollar 1:11:42.520 --> 1:11:46.200 tax revenue anymore because, you know, other than the income 1:11:46.200 --> 1:11:49.200 tax of the employers, maybe that might but yeah, so 1:11:49.240 --> 1:11:51.120 that's another you know part of it. 1:11:51.400 --> 1:11:53.000 Yeah, Yeah, bait and switch is a good way to 1:11:53.040 --> 1:11:55.040 describe it. Like people think they're getting one thing and 1:11:55.040 --> 1:12:08.760 they end up getting another thing. You talked about the employees, like, 1:12:08.840 --> 1:12:13.120 when these facilities change hands, will it then be like 1:12:13.280 --> 1:12:18.240 federal employees or will they still be staffed by cor Civic. 1:12:18.680 --> 1:12:22.920 Yeah, So that's the interesting thing is the federal government 1:12:22.960 --> 1:12:25.960 is going to own the real estate, but Corsivic has 1:12:25.960 --> 1:12:29.240 said in its SEC filings that it expects it thinks 1:12:29.520 --> 1:12:32.240 that it's going to be keeping those contracts to continue 1:12:32.240 --> 1:12:36.320 operating the facilities. So the contract for California City runs 1:12:36.320 --> 1:12:39.600 through August twenty twenty seven. The one for Otai Mesa 1:12:39.840 --> 1:12:41.800 is supposed to end in twenty twenty nine, but there's 1:12:41.800 --> 1:12:44.519 an option to extend it another five years. And my 1:12:44.640 --> 1:12:48.120 impression is that ICE is quite happy with the way 1:12:48.240 --> 1:12:51.960 Corcivic is running these facilities and Geogroup is running these facilities, 1:12:52.200 --> 1:12:56.280 so that would mean the same guards, the same medical directors, 1:12:57.120 --> 1:13:00.720 the same kind of operations and day to day at 1:13:00.720 --> 1:13:04.599 both facilities, and they plan on keeping their existing management GRONTO. 1:13:04.720 --> 1:13:04.800 Now. 1:13:04.840 --> 1:13:07.559 They they acknowledge in the SEC filing that there's no 1:13:07.600 --> 1:13:10.519 guarantee that they get to keep it, but that's it 1:13:10.560 --> 1:13:12.640 sounds like that's the deal that they've worked out and 1:13:12.640 --> 1:13:14.200 negotiated with the federal government. 1:13:14.680 --> 1:13:17.479 Sure like even when they've done these like they stood 1:13:17.560 --> 1:13:21.280 up that one camp, East Montana they call it, which 1:13:21.320 --> 1:13:23.360 is still run by a contractor, even though it's on 1:13:23.640 --> 1:13:27.960 Department and Defense land and the conditions there are atrocious 1:13:28.120 --> 1:13:30.880 from what we saw with the Inspector General report, and 1:13:31.080 --> 1:13:32.280 it doesn't seem to be a concern. 1:13:32.400 --> 1:13:34.120 Yeah, that's someone outside of Belpasso. 1:13:34.439 --> 1:13:36.519 Yeah, Bliss, I've seen it. 1:13:36.600 --> 1:13:39.120 The tent camp oh okay out the side of Purt Place. Yeah, 1:13:39.120 --> 1:13:42.000 the white timp camp. Yeah yeah, you know, it seems 1:13:42.040 --> 1:13:44.559 like they're violating their own rules, right when they have 1:13:44.640 --> 1:13:47.360 these rules, they have these set of standards that they 1:13:47.400 --> 1:13:49.439 have set up. And that's the first thing courcivic or 1:13:49.479 --> 1:13:51.439 GEO will say is like, hey, we follow all the 1:13:51.479 --> 1:13:53.840 federal standards that are set up for us, right for 1:13:53.960 --> 1:13:54.960 digens standards. 1:13:55.160 --> 1:13:55.240 Ye. 1:13:55.400 --> 1:13:57.960 But it seemed, especially with that one, that you're mentioning 1:13:58.000 --> 1:14:01.000 that they violated all their own standards and sending that 1:14:01.040 --> 1:14:01.519 place up. 1:14:02.080 --> 1:14:04.960 Yeah. Yeah, I mean that place is particularly egregious, like 1:14:05.040 --> 1:14:07.479 even among immigration detention facilities. Some of the stuff, and 1:14:07.520 --> 1:14:10.880 that Inspected General's report was genuinely shocking, and I thought 1:14:10.880 --> 1:14:12.840 I'd lost a capatty to be shocked by this stuff. 1:14:13.479 --> 1:14:15.720 But yeah, there's lots of terrible things have happened, Like 1:14:15.880 --> 1:14:18.880 I think you reported on the Mongolian person right who 1:14:19.040 --> 1:14:22.360 was who used sign language and was detained for I 1:14:22.360 --> 1:14:26.240 think months without an interpreter, if I'm remembering correctly. 1:14:26.640 --> 1:14:29.120 Right, Yeah, he had never gotten a chance to even 1:14:29.200 --> 1:14:31.400 tell his story on how he had crossed the border 1:14:31.520 --> 1:14:36.479 because CBP had like really confused his story. He was 1:14:36.479 --> 1:14:38.600 telling them about his sister and they thought that that 1:14:38.680 --> 1:14:40.920 it was his daughter, and they were using like a 1:14:41.400 --> 1:14:45.160 I don't know AI some kind of online translation thing 1:14:45.360 --> 1:14:48.360 that was not even close to what his actual story was. 1:14:48.920 --> 1:14:51.839 And yeah, he spent months without able to tell anybody 1:14:51.880 --> 1:14:55.360 what happened to him. And you know, finally, yeah, after 1:14:55.400 --> 1:14:58.280 we did our story, Like finally, the ice attorney was 1:14:58.280 --> 1:15:01.520 trying to set up like a relay team of translation, 1:15:02.680 --> 1:15:05.240 but the federal judge was just said, like, doesn't he 1:15:05.280 --> 1:15:07.519 have a right to participate in his own proceedings? Like 1:15:07.560 --> 1:15:10.080 does it isn't he shouldn't he be an active participant 1:15:10.160 --> 1:15:13.000 in the proceedings against him, right, yeah, and not just 1:15:13.160 --> 1:15:16.200 a bystander in that. And then so then he the 1:15:16.280 --> 1:15:18.320 judge rule that they had to get him and interpreter, 1:15:18.320 --> 1:15:19.920 and I guess they decided it was too hard to 1:15:19.920 --> 1:15:22.280 do that, because they let him out fairly quickly after 1:15:22.280 --> 1:15:25.680 that ruling. But yeah, I mean some of the conditions 1:15:25.720 --> 1:15:28.599 that we've heard about I mean, obviously, I think everybody's heard, 1:15:28.680 --> 1:15:32.360 like the overcrowding, really severe lack of access to medical care, 1:15:32.760 --> 1:15:35.640 the horrific food. We've been hearing about how bad the 1:15:35.640 --> 1:15:39.479 food is for decades now in there, you know, smelling 1:15:39.560 --> 1:15:43.520 moldy waters particular problem in California City, and just somethings 1:15:43.600 --> 1:15:46.439 just like kind of the revaliation that people face for 1:15:46.520 --> 1:15:48.240 if they try to bring an issue up or if 1:15:48.240 --> 1:15:51.720 they try to you know, advocate for somebody else they 1:15:51.840 --> 1:15:55.240 feel like oftentimes they tell us that they feel like, 1:15:56.080 --> 1:15:59.160 you know, they get sort of retaliated against for that, 1:15:59.520 --> 1:16:01.880 you know already is one of the one of the 1:16:01.920 --> 1:16:04.720 most egregious violations that we've ever heard of, of, like 1:16:04.760 --> 1:16:07.400 the hunger strike. The hunger strikers all got dragged out 1:16:07.600 --> 1:16:11.000 and according to them, you know, beat up or handled 1:16:11.040 --> 1:16:13.479 very roughly and then take into Texas and for sped 1:16:13.760 --> 1:16:16.639 with a tube down their nose. Right Like, Yeah, there's 1:16:16.680 --> 1:16:19.799 definitely been some very egregious things that have happened inside 1:16:19.800 --> 1:16:22.280 these detention centers, and that's why it's so important for 1:16:22.400 --> 1:16:25.200 people to be able to you know, especially the congress 1:16:25.200 --> 1:16:29.000 members or and the local state inspectors. It's very important 1:16:29.000 --> 1:16:30.760 for somebody to be able to get in there and 1:16:30.760 --> 1:16:33.160 see what the conditions are like inside. 1:16:33.560 --> 1:16:35.800 Yeah, this court case doesn't matter anymore, like with this 1:16:35.880 --> 1:16:38.160 new development, right, the court case at least it match 1:16:38.240 --> 1:16:40.960 is in other detention facilities, but not in outime Mesa, 1:16:41.000 --> 1:16:42.679 specifically in San Diego County. 1:16:42.840 --> 1:16:44.639 Yeah, it's kind of remain to be seen. I think, 1:16:44.760 --> 1:16:47.759 like I said, the federal courts have upheld that state 1:16:47.880 --> 1:16:52.040 can't overstep their authority, and like step on federal authority 1:16:52.080 --> 1:16:53.760 to carry out immigration of course might right. 1:16:53.840 --> 1:16:54.080 Yeah. 1:16:54.120 --> 1:16:56.400 I think that those health inspectors they already have done 1:16:56.400 --> 1:16:58.920 their health inspections, so they already did one, and their 1:16:58.920 --> 1:17:00.880 report I think is coming out at the end of July, 1:17:01.479 --> 1:17:04.320 so there will be that. But and then I think 1:17:04.360 --> 1:17:06.760 my understanding is In Diego County plans to fight. 1:17:07.000 --> 1:17:08.839 It's what I thought they were going to appeel it. Yeah. 1:17:08.960 --> 1:17:11.120 Yeah, they're going to try to pluss the issue in 1:17:11.160 --> 1:17:14.320 court to see if they can continue going in there 1:17:14.360 --> 1:17:16.800 and doing their inspections. But like I said, you know, 1:17:17.160 --> 1:17:20.799 the courts haven't tended to rule that way, and deadjust thinks, 1:17:20.880 --> 1:17:22.800 like we know from their own statement that they think 1:17:22.840 --> 1:17:25.600 that this will sort of put an end to the 1:17:25.680 --> 1:17:28.880 different inspections and oversight stuff that the state and the 1:17:28.960 --> 1:17:30.519 local officials want to do. 1:17:31.479 --> 1:17:34.600 Yeah. Yeah, it's a pretty bleak, pretty big outlook for 1:17:34.640 --> 1:17:38.800 immigration detention, which was not really a great outlook to 1:17:38.880 --> 1:17:39.320 begin with. 1:17:39.479 --> 1:17:42.639 I guess yeah, But it's not come one hundred percent decided, 1:17:42.680 --> 1:17:44.759 like it still has an open question. Whether these inspection 1:17:44.880 --> 1:17:47.640 laws will survive the beederal ownership or not remains to 1:17:47.640 --> 1:17:49.200 be seen, I think, right. 1:17:49.560 --> 1:17:52.680 Yeah, you said that they had plans for other locations. 1:17:52.840 --> 1:17:55.439 I'm guessing they have plans to Geogroup locations as well. 1:17:56.000 --> 1:17:58.160 Do you think this is their plan going forward to 1:17:58.160 --> 1:18:02.240 try and acquire all of the ease private immigration. They 1:18:02.240 --> 1:18:04.280 have the money too, I assume yeah. 1:18:04.320 --> 1:18:06.719 I think everything points to yes on that. I think 1:18:07.200 --> 1:18:10.439 Courseivic said in their statement that they are already in 1:18:10.760 --> 1:18:14.320 talks with ICE about selling more of their facilities. Geogroup 1:18:14.320 --> 1:18:18.000 has said on earnings calls that they would like to 1:18:18.280 --> 1:18:22.479 sell their facilities, and like you mentioned, you know, DHS 1:18:22.520 --> 1:18:26.280 definitely has the money thanks to that massive appropriation from 1:18:26.320 --> 1:18:30.040 the federal government, so you know, really they've already said 1:18:30.040 --> 1:18:32.280 that it's kind of their preference to outright own them 1:18:32.560 --> 1:18:35.320 rather than lease them or have a private company operate 1:18:35.360 --> 1:18:38.840 them in California. Yeah, so yeah, I think we will 1:18:38.840 --> 1:18:41.320 see more of it, and I'm definitely, you know, trying 1:18:41.360 --> 1:18:44.040 to monitor it as much as possible to see when 1:18:44.080 --> 1:18:44.719 that happens. 1:18:45.479 --> 1:18:48.000 I wonder if this also changes the legal environment for 1:18:48.000 --> 1:18:52.160 people who are either protesting or like they're in a 1:18:52.600 --> 1:18:55.439 sort of mutual aid capacity for the migrant trillip. Sometimes 1:18:55.439 --> 1:18:58.400 people can hear migrant shouting from inside, and they can 1:18:58.439 --> 1:19:00.880 hear them like asking for someone to put money on 1:19:00.920 --> 1:19:03.439 their phone, cut or what have you, or just describing 1:19:03.479 --> 1:19:06.040 their condition to relating them. Will it being a federal 1:19:06.120 --> 1:19:09.960 owned facility? Do you think that changes? Like because it's 1:19:10.040 --> 1:19:12.320 legal to stand outside a thing, right, but if it's 1:19:12.320 --> 1:19:14.240 a fed facility, maybe it's even harder. 1:19:14.680 --> 1:19:16.519 Yes, I do think it will change. I do think 1:19:16.600 --> 1:19:18.880 we'll see the federal government trying to crack down harder 1:19:18.960 --> 1:19:21.479 on protesters that come, you know, in no ten ways 1:19:21.520 --> 1:19:25.120 that they had the people. We're putting information about how 1:19:25.160 --> 1:19:28.240 they were being held in bottles and throwing the bottles 1:19:28.280 --> 1:19:31.519 over the gate toy. I do think for sure that 1:19:31.680 --> 1:19:35.919 the federal government will operate differently now that it's federal property. 1:19:36.439 --> 1:19:39.519 Another thing that's very interesting. You know, they already hold 1:19:39.840 --> 1:19:43.760 people who are not immigrant dtees in California City, So 1:19:43.800 --> 1:19:45.960 they have a section of that facility that are like 1:19:46.160 --> 1:19:48.799 people who are in the custody of the US marshals already. 1:19:48.840 --> 1:19:51.160 So there are already people in there who aren't immigrants. 1:19:51.640 --> 1:19:54.719 I wonder if we might see more of an effort 1:19:54.840 --> 1:20:00.880 to detain more people in these facilities who are not immigrants, right, Yeah, yeah, 1:20:00.920 --> 1:20:03.760 because they have promises made to Courcivic and Geogroup that 1:20:03.800 --> 1:20:06.120 they are going to try to give them a certain 1:20:06.160 --> 1:20:10.679 population of detees per day, right, right, So that's another 1:20:10.840 --> 1:20:12.160 part that remains to be seen. 1:20:12.720 --> 1:20:14.600 Yeah, that's also super concerning. 1:20:14.800 --> 1:20:17.200 Yeah, it really is super concerning of where it could 1:20:17.200 --> 1:20:19.800 all go, right, Like especially you see you know the 1:20:19.840 --> 1:20:23.759 federal government calling protesters domestic terrorists and stuff like that. 1:20:24.200 --> 1:20:25.600 It is really concerning. 1:20:26.360 --> 1:20:28.920 Yeah, And we saw that in like as in Minneapolis 1:20:28.960 --> 1:20:33.000 in late January, and the same thing happens there. Right, 1:20:33.000 --> 1:20:36.160 they have their federal building it's called the Whipple Building, 1:20:36.560 --> 1:20:38.720 and like they do immigration detention there. But then there 1:20:38.840 --> 1:20:42.800 was also where people who were detained for protesting against 1:20:43.439 --> 1:20:47.439 that immigration those immigration accents were taken right, they used 1:20:47.439 --> 1:20:50.320 the same facility, and like there's a certain kind of 1:20:50.600 --> 1:20:52.799 menace to that, right, Like it's. 1:20:52.680 --> 1:20:54.519 Really alarming where it could go if you think. 1:20:54.400 --> 1:20:58.439 About it, right, Yeah, it's really uh, really concerning. Like 1:20:58.520 --> 1:20:59.880 this is one of those things that's at a little 1:20:59.880 --> 1:21:01.799 people can do much about. 1:21:02.000 --> 1:21:02.160 Right. 1:21:02.520 --> 1:21:05.559 It's a like willing seller willing buyer kind of situation 1:21:06.240 --> 1:21:09.680 where unfortunately, like there's pretty few means for address. Like 1:21:09.720 --> 1:21:12.960 I hope California is successful with being able to inspect them, 1:21:13.000 --> 1:21:15.360 at least that would be something. And I know there 1:21:15.360 --> 1:21:18.720 are lots of really good groups doing work to keep 1:21:18.760 --> 1:21:22.960 people out of detention, to help with habeasts, to improve 1:21:22.960 --> 1:21:27.479 conditions in detention, et cetera. So like people can help 1:21:27.560 --> 1:21:29.960 out those groups that they want to. Yet it does 1:21:30.000 --> 1:21:33.040 seem like this is a particularly kind of bleak area 1:21:33.080 --> 1:21:34.920 of immigration enforcement right now. 1:21:35.280 --> 1:21:38.120 Right and especially since you know, one of the first 1:21:38.120 --> 1:21:42.760 things that Trump did is shut down the mechanisms that 1:21:42.840 --> 1:21:46.880 people can appeal or report. Like, you know, when you 1:21:46.920 --> 1:21:48.920 have a complaint about something that's happened to you within 1:21:49.040 --> 1:21:53.200 immigration attention, you complain about it either to the Offices 1:21:53.200 --> 1:21:57.439 Civil Rights and Civil Liberties. There's another DHS and both 1:21:57.439 --> 1:21:59.080 of those have been shut down right now, are not 1:21:59.160 --> 1:22:02.479 funded right now, So those mechanisms with which you can 1:22:03.200 --> 1:22:05.920 get any oversight from within the federal government right now 1:22:05.920 --> 1:22:06.880 are not operating. 1:22:07.240 --> 1:22:09.479 Yeah, yeah, it's o idea the other one. 1:22:09.560 --> 1:22:11.200 Yeah, that might be it. Yeah, that's great. 1:22:11.600 --> 1:22:15.280 Yeah, I've seen them precisely once, Wendy. If people want 1:22:15.280 --> 1:22:16.880 to follow your work, you've done lots of good stuff 1:22:16.880 --> 1:22:20.080 on California. Cal matt is just some really good reporting. 1:22:20.120 --> 1:22:24.360 You had great reporting about the operation return to Sender, 1:22:24.680 --> 1:22:26.719 for example, back when that was shocking. 1:22:26.800 --> 1:22:27.599 Thank you so much. 1:22:28.360 --> 1:22:29.439 How can people find you? 1:22:30.200 --> 1:22:33.040 Yeah, that's great. So all our stories are there on 1:22:33.160 --> 1:22:36.200 calmatters dot org. Thank you for that. And then our 1:22:36.280 --> 1:22:39.200 Operation Return to Center documentary is on YouTube, so you 1:22:39.240 --> 1:22:41.280 can find that there. We did a lot of work 1:22:41.320 --> 1:22:44.639 to show kind of what Bovino was saying and what 1:22:44.680 --> 1:22:46.719 was actually happening on the ground. So that's a really 1:22:47.040 --> 1:22:47.920 good one to watch. 1:22:48.560 --> 1:22:51.599 Yeah, and you guys publish also in Spanish, right, yes, 1:22:51.680 --> 1:22:52.000 we do. 1:22:52.720 --> 1:22:57.160 More recently we started translating more of our stories into 1:22:57.160 --> 1:22:59.280 Spanish so that folks who want to read it and 1:22:59.280 --> 1:23:00.479 Spanish can find that there too. 1:23:00.560 --> 1:23:02.280 Yeah that's great. That's super nice. 1:23:02.439 --> 1:23:04.800 And I speak flu in Spanish. If people need to 1:23:04.840 --> 1:23:07.759 contact me in Spanish, I can communicate there. 1:23:07.600 --> 1:23:09.960 Too, nice yep, And there's a contact link for you 1:23:10.000 --> 1:23:11.559 on the website and getting if people want to talk 1:23:11.560 --> 1:23:12.800 to you about some of this stuff. 1:23:12.560 --> 1:23:15.240 Right, absolutely, or yeah, I can just share my email 1:23:15.280 --> 1:23:17.960 for sure. It's Wendy atclmatters dot org. And I am 1:23:18.000 --> 1:23:20.400 always hoping to hear from people so we can do 1:23:20.439 --> 1:23:23.000 more end up the recording about what's going on inside 1:23:23.000 --> 1:23:25.360 these facilities. So thank you so much for that opportunity 1:23:25.439 --> 1:23:25.840 to share that. 1:23:26.160 --> 1:23:28.599 Yeah, Coose, thanks for for doing this and taking time 1:23:28.640 --> 1:23:29.639 to talk to us anytime. 1:23:42.600 --> 1:23:46.160 Welcome to it could happen here. I'm Garrison Davis. For 1:23:46.200 --> 1:23:49.240 the past few weeks on Executive Disorder and some regular 1:23:49.240 --> 1:23:52.759 episodes of this show, most notably the DSA Red Scare, 1:23:53.400 --> 1:23:56.200 I've been covering the ongoing battle for the future of 1:23:56.280 --> 1:23:59.560 the Democratic Party, spurred on by a recent wave of 1:23:59.600 --> 1:24:04.240 elect victories by DSA in Pennsylvania, Colorado, and most notably 1:24:04.360 --> 1:24:08.479 New York City, where last month the DSA doubled their 1:24:08.520 --> 1:24:12.599 block of Socialists in office. This episode is another installment 1:24:12.640 --> 1:24:15.719 in this informal series, and this time we are going 1:24:15.760 --> 1:24:19.040 straight to the source by talking with the co chair 1:24:19.240 --> 1:24:22.639 of the New York City Chapter of DSA, Grace Mauser, 1:24:23.320 --> 1:24:26.280 in an interview where we talked about everything from the 1:24:26.360 --> 1:24:30.240 chapter's electoral strategy to their theory of power, and what 1:24:30.439 --> 1:24:34.719 organizers can learn from New York City DSA's recent string 1:24:34.840 --> 1:24:38.759 of success. So, without further ado, here is my interview 1:24:38.800 --> 1:24:46.479 with Grace Mauser, co chair of NYC DSA. To start 1:24:46.520 --> 1:24:50.800 on like the most like broad picture aspect, what is 1:24:50.840 --> 1:24:54.880 the Democratic Socialist of America If people are not super 1:24:54.880 --> 1:24:57.680 familiar with like what the organization actually is or what 1:24:57.800 --> 1:24:59.600 the point of the organization. 1:24:59.240 --> 1:25:04.720 Is, thanks so much for having me. So DSA. Democratic 1:25:04.760 --> 1:25:11.120 Socialists of America is a political organization. Legally, we're a nonprofit. 1:25:11.200 --> 1:25:14.360 We're five to one C four, which enables us to 1:25:14.640 --> 1:25:18.680 engage in a lot of different types of campaigns, including 1:25:18.840 --> 1:25:23.759 electoral campaigns. But also we're very involved in labor work, 1:25:23.840 --> 1:25:27.240 and we often partner with unions and with brink and 1:25:27.280 --> 1:25:33.480 file workers for both internal union reform purposes and external demands. 1:25:33.520 --> 1:25:37.240 We do issue based campaigns. For example, in New York City, 1:25:37.720 --> 1:25:41.759 our Immigrant Justice Working Group ran a very successful effort 1:25:41.920 --> 1:25:45.640 to conduct Know Your Rights trainings earlier this year that 1:25:45.800 --> 1:25:50.200 trained over five thousand people in the city. So we 1:25:50.240 --> 1:25:53.080 do a lot of different types of things, including social 1:25:53.160 --> 1:25:56.400 things we have like book clubs and softball leagues and 1:25:56.439 --> 1:25:57.120 things like that. 1:25:57.360 --> 1:26:00.559 The run Club is a very formidable political group in 1:26:00.600 --> 1:26:01.040 the city. 1:26:01.520 --> 1:26:05.799 The run Club is very popular. It's true, it's true. 1:26:05.920 --> 1:26:10.559 They've really taken off. And how we are structured is 1:26:10.600 --> 1:26:15.280 that there's a national DSA so national organization, and then 1:26:15.320 --> 1:26:19.040 there are I believe over two hundred chapters all across 1:26:19.200 --> 1:26:24.599 the country. New York City is by far the largest, 1:26:24.760 --> 1:26:28.200 I think for more than twice as large as the 1:26:28.320 --> 1:26:33.400 next bigest, which is LA And the chapters engage in 1:26:33.840 --> 1:26:37.960 localized work, but then we also try to have participation 1:26:38.120 --> 1:26:42.400 from chapters on national campaigns and questions. I would say, 1:26:42.479 --> 1:26:45.840 we're you know, we're not a party, not usually Americans 1:26:45.880 --> 1:26:48.439 that some people are call some party or think we're 1:26:48.439 --> 1:26:51.519 a party. We don't have a ballot line, but we 1:26:51.640 --> 1:26:56.960 do run people in primary elections, usually in Democratic primaries, 1:26:57.400 --> 1:27:02.480 because we want our members to select and endorsed candidates 1:27:02.560 --> 1:27:05.559 that they think will represent not only their interests with 1:27:05.600 --> 1:27:09.040 the interests of a broader working class space. And then 1:27:09.080 --> 1:27:13.080 we want people who are elected to actually collaborate with 1:27:13.960 --> 1:27:19.200 DSA and other outside organizations in a real and serious 1:27:19.280 --> 1:27:23.600 way that the Democratic Party simply does not encourage and 1:27:23.720 --> 1:27:26.439 sometimes even even tries to stop. 1:27:27.120 --> 1:27:31.760 So obviously, within the name of DSA, there's democratic socialism 1:27:31.840 --> 1:27:36.720 and socialism kind of broadly, what does DSA mean by socialism? 1:27:36.760 --> 1:27:40.600 I mean, I've seen multiple articles specifically in the Atlantic, 1:27:41.040 --> 1:27:46.240 really really concerned about what socialism means and the quote 1:27:46.280 --> 1:27:50.479 unquote Trotskyist tactics that Dsay's is employing. There's been a 1:27:50.479 --> 1:27:53.559 whole of whole bunch of media coverage being scared of, 1:27:53.880 --> 1:27:57.599 you know, communism and socialism. But what does like DSA 1:27:57.720 --> 1:27:59.000 mean by socialism? 1:28:00.200 --> 1:28:03.760 ESSAY is what we call a big tent organization. There 1:28:03.800 --> 1:28:08.320 are a lot of different ideologies that are members embrace. 1:28:08.960 --> 1:28:12.559 Some people are more social democrats that you might find 1:28:12.880 --> 1:28:16.559 to be the standard in some European countries. Some people 1:28:16.640 --> 1:28:21.880 identify as communists, for example. So what we need by 1:28:21.920 --> 1:28:26.040 socialism we try to make really concrete and demand base. 1:28:26.600 --> 1:28:31.200 We're looking at things like universal health care, passing bills 1:28:31.240 --> 1:28:35.160 like Medicare for All. We are trying to make housing 1:28:35.240 --> 1:28:39.479 more affordable by expanding the role of government in the 1:28:39.479 --> 1:28:43.280 housing market through things like what's around Mamdani just help 1:28:43.479 --> 1:28:44.920 do freezing the rent. 1:28:45.640 --> 1:28:48.640 We are trying to make universal. 1:28:48.200 --> 1:28:52.120 Childcare free, right, like public education as it currently exists 1:28:52.760 --> 1:28:54.440 is functionally socialists. 1:28:54.640 --> 1:28:54.800 Right. 1:28:54.880 --> 1:29:00.479 It's the government providing free education and childcare for millions 1:29:00.520 --> 1:29:04.320 of children, and for some reason, it arbitrarily starts at 1:29:04.360 --> 1:29:06.960 five years old. We're saying, what if we had that 1:29:07.160 --> 1:29:09.960 but a little bit sooner. So we try to center 1:29:10.160 --> 1:29:16.759 our demands on these really material ideas. One because it 1:29:16.880 --> 1:29:21.479 enables not only leftists of all different stripes, but all 1:29:21.520 --> 1:29:25.000 sorts of people to come in and identify with these 1:29:25.040 --> 1:29:27.360 ideas because they know it would help their lives. 1:29:27.920 --> 1:29:29.200 But also because. 1:29:28.920 --> 1:29:32.439 Winning these things will take a very long time. So 1:29:32.720 --> 1:29:35.840 my day to day is not so much concerned with 1:29:36.720 --> 1:29:39.320 or the economy should look like in one hundred years, 1:29:39.800 --> 1:29:42.840 but what we can achieve in the next five, ten, 1:29:43.120 --> 1:29:47.560 twenty years. And you know, even if I'm not a communist, 1:29:47.640 --> 1:29:49.320 but if I were, we're not going to be a 1:29:49.360 --> 1:29:53.639 communists in ten years, right, So what matters is actually 1:29:54.120 --> 1:29:58.320 making people's lives better now and using the government to 1:29:58.400 --> 1:30:02.800 do that, which you know American politicians socialists and not 1:30:03.080 --> 1:30:05.360 have done for many decades before. 1:30:05.800 --> 1:30:08.240 You were talking about like DSA is organizing to like 1:30:08.720 --> 1:30:10.200 see what the country could be like in like five 1:30:10.240 --> 1:30:12.120 to ten years. And I think something that people might 1:30:12.160 --> 1:30:16.680 not be aware of is the past work that New 1:30:16.760 --> 1:30:19.960 York City DSA has done the past five to ten years. 1:30:20.040 --> 1:30:20.240 Right. 1:30:20.280 --> 1:30:24.040 I think people certainly saw were drawn to DSA around 1:30:24.080 --> 1:30:26.320 the election of Zoran And you know, maybe this most 1:30:26.320 --> 1:30:28.800 recent like slate win, but this is this has been 1:30:28.880 --> 1:30:31.559 kind of a long term project of like building power 1:30:31.640 --> 1:30:36.439 and experimenting with electoral strategy and canvassing and like this 1:30:36.439 --> 1:30:39.920 this specific path to victory. So could you speak a 1:30:39.920 --> 1:30:45.120 little bit how NYCDSA has achieved like this winning streak, 1:30:45.160 --> 1:30:47.320 especially like in the past year, and like the build 1:30:47.360 --> 1:30:48.599 up to that winning streak. 1:30:49.040 --> 1:30:55.559 Definitely, New York City DSA really got serious in twenty sixteen, 1:30:55.920 --> 1:31:00.439 both because many people were inspired by Bernie Sanders and 1:31:00.479 --> 1:31:04.760 then many people were horrified by the ultimate victory of 1:31:04.840 --> 1:31:11.040 Donald Trump in that presidential election. In twenty seventeen, we 1:31:11.840 --> 1:31:15.160 took on our first electoral races in the modern era. 1:31:15.280 --> 1:31:18.759 There was two city council races. We lost both of those, 1:31:19.120 --> 1:31:22.120 but we did learn a lot and we gained a 1:31:22.200 --> 1:31:26.880 new members around Donnie via one of those races. But 1:31:27.040 --> 1:31:31.360 something we learned is that we could certainly run field campaigns, 1:31:31.720 --> 1:31:34.720 and by field I mean canvassing and door knocking, But 1:31:34.800 --> 1:31:37.080 we also saw that hey actually a lot of the 1:31:37.160 --> 1:31:41.360 skills that are required in other parts of the campaign, communications, 1:31:42.000 --> 1:31:45.400 political maneuvering, fundraising. 1:31:44.840 --> 1:31:45.600 And budgeting. 1:31:46.080 --> 1:31:49.360 These are also things we think that our members can do, 1:31:49.920 --> 1:31:53.559 and we really tested that out in twenty eighteen. We 1:31:53.640 --> 1:31:58.160 endorsed AOC that year. But in some ways the bigger 1:31:58.280 --> 1:32:02.120 chapter project was Houli, our state Senate race, where we 1:32:03.120 --> 1:32:07.360 had members not only on staff but also basically helping 1:32:07.479 --> 1:32:10.919 in the volunteer capacity almost every aspect of that race. 1:32:11.080 --> 1:32:11.599 And we won. 1:32:12.600 --> 1:32:17.120 So from there we learned that we could teach ourselves 1:32:17.360 --> 1:32:21.360 and begin to replicate the skills of not only canvassing, 1:32:21.520 --> 1:32:25.479 but all these other skills that the political class and 1:32:25.520 --> 1:32:29.599 the consulting class in particular want to believe that they 1:32:29.640 --> 1:32:32.920 have a monopoly on that they're so hard to understand 1:32:32.960 --> 1:32:36.639 that you simply must pay them tens of thousands of dollars. 1:32:37.200 --> 1:32:38.720 So we have built out from there. 1:32:39.360 --> 1:32:44.360 We have now sixteen Socialist in office at the state 1:32:44.479 --> 1:32:48.160 legislature level, not only in New York City but also 1:32:48.800 --> 1:32:51.840 in mid Hudson Valley and in Buffalo, and we have 1:32:51.920 --> 1:32:56.280 four city council members and now three Congress members. 1:32:56.880 --> 1:32:58.600 Some of those came posts. 1:32:58.360 --> 1:33:01.040 Eron, but most of them caname pre Zoran. 1:33:01.200 --> 1:33:05.080 And it was just really nose to the grindstone kind 1:33:05.120 --> 1:33:08.640 of work, knocking on a lot of doors or replicating skills, 1:33:08.720 --> 1:33:12.280 fundraising from small dollar donors. And we lost some of 1:33:12.320 --> 1:33:16.519 our races. I think we've probably lost a little less 1:33:16.520 --> 1:33:19.800 than half of the races we'd won, but we took 1:33:19.840 --> 1:33:23.200 some big swings about strategic swings. So these kind of 1:33:23.240 --> 1:33:28.599 skills developed over time and really formed the foundation and 1:33:28.640 --> 1:33:33.759 the backbone of Zoran's campaign. So for many Durans seemed 1:33:33.760 --> 1:33:38.240 to come out of nowhere. But his first campaign event, 1:33:38.560 --> 1:33:42.559 his field launch in December of twenty twenty four, when 1:33:42.800 --> 1:33:46.000 no one had really heard of him as a series candidate, 1:33:46.360 --> 1:33:49.200 had five hundred people at it, which I would guess 1:33:49.439 --> 1:33:53.479 is bigger than any other candidate had at any point 1:33:54.280 --> 1:33:58.439 in the race. And that's because DSA members knew him, 1:33:58.479 --> 1:34:02.040 were really excited about what this meant, and also knew 1:34:02.240 --> 1:34:05.559 exactly what kind of work would be required to make 1:34:05.680 --> 1:34:09.920 this race successful, and it was work of basically building 1:34:09.920 --> 1:34:13.519 out huge infrastructure and knocking on millions of doors so 1:34:13.560 --> 1:34:14.839 that we could talk to voters. 1:34:15.400 --> 1:34:18.360 Yeah, one of the most impressive things is this sort 1:34:18.400 --> 1:34:22.960 of like like parallel campaign structure that DSA has has 1:34:23.040 --> 1:34:25.960 developed that you don't need to go through the regular 1:34:26.240 --> 1:34:29.400 channels of like consultants, sort of like inside baseball of politics. 1:34:29.439 --> 1:34:31.519 And I got people do often get very confused about 1:34:31.520 --> 1:34:33.679 like what the word like party means, right, because party 1:34:33.680 --> 1:34:35.120 in you know, Europe in something very different than what 1:34:35.160 --> 1:34:37.920 it means in the US. But in terms of running 1:34:37.960 --> 1:34:42.120 in primaries, the DSA often has to go up against 1:34:42.520 --> 1:34:48.280 the party infrastructure of the Democratic Party establishment itself. And 1:34:48.320 --> 1:34:51.760 the fact that DSA has been able to, especially in 1:34:51.760 --> 1:34:54.719 the past two years, like out organize the local political 1:34:54.800 --> 1:34:57.040 establishment has been like one of the most impressive feats. 1:34:57.080 --> 1:34:58.519 And like I've been able to see this in person. 1:34:59.000 --> 1:35:01.639 I'm in Brooklyn in the you know, the past two months, 1:35:01.840 --> 1:35:05.559 I had multiple DSA canvassers come to my door. I 1:35:05.680 --> 1:35:08.800 received a truly absurd amount of Mayer's. There was you know, 1:35:08.920 --> 1:35:12.040 people canvassing on the sidewalk, you know, all the time 1:35:12.080 --> 1:35:14.240 you know, same thing, same thing in Ridgewood and Queens. 1:35:14.479 --> 1:35:17.519 A lot of canvassers there, especially going into the mayoral race. 1:35:18.320 --> 1:35:19.760 Something that's stuck in my mind a lot is I 1:35:19.800 --> 1:35:22.360 used to live in Atlanta. Some like friends of friends, 1:35:22.439 --> 1:35:24.759 people I didn't know, but people I kind of loosely 1:35:24.880 --> 1:35:27.679 knew of were paid to do canvassing for the twenty 1:35:27.720 --> 1:35:31.120 twenty four presidential election for the Democratic Party. They were 1:35:31.120 --> 1:35:33.120 basically just operating kind of like a scam, like they 1:35:33.120 --> 1:35:35.160 did not actually do any of the work. They basically 1:35:35.200 --> 1:35:37.559 sat in like a parking lot and scrolled on their phone. 1:35:38.120 --> 1:35:41.040 And something that makes the DSA's form of canvasing so 1:35:41.120 --> 1:35:43.080 different is that the people who are actually involved in 1:35:43.120 --> 1:35:45.960 it actually care about the political project, right, They're actually 1:35:46.280 --> 1:35:50.519 like invested in these candidates, invested in, you know, putting 1:35:50.520 --> 1:35:52.640 forward this like working class politics and are not just 1:35:52.960 --> 1:35:56.240 getting a paycheck from the DNC. And that changes the 1:35:56.240 --> 1:35:58.640 way that they do canvassing on the ground. I know 1:35:58.680 --> 1:36:00.280 this this is something that you refer to, is like 1:36:00.320 --> 1:36:03.479 the DSA difference. Could you guys briefly touch on like 1:36:03.560 --> 1:36:05.320 what the DSA difference like represents? 1:36:05.960 --> 1:36:10.760 Yeah, it really for me starts from the endorsement process, 1:36:11.040 --> 1:36:16.040 which is very long and white rigorous, but also extremely democratic, 1:36:16.360 --> 1:36:21.680 and because of that, people really feel bought in to 1:36:21.880 --> 1:36:24.920 the races that we endorse. I mean, if you come 1:36:25.000 --> 1:36:30.000 to an endorsement forum, it's said over and over again, 1:36:30.560 --> 1:36:33.519 if you would not personally be interested in canvassing for 1:36:33.640 --> 1:36:36.679 this candidate, do not vote to endorse them. And that's 1:36:37.080 --> 1:36:39.920 a kind of an easy standard we try to share 1:36:40.439 --> 1:36:43.800 with members on top of a lot of strategy and 1:36:43.920 --> 1:36:46.760 data consideration, and there's a lot of things that go 1:36:46.880 --> 1:36:49.639 into it, but for as that like will you go 1:36:49.720 --> 1:36:52.559 to this? If not, how can we expect others to 1:36:53.640 --> 1:36:58.960 that initial buy in, That initial ownership that members have 1:36:59.400 --> 1:37:05.040 over what races we've run and why really extends then 1:37:05.320 --> 1:37:09.360 into the entirety of the campaign. So our campaigns do 1:37:09.520 --> 1:37:13.320 have staff, and of course larger campaigns have more staff, 1:37:13.880 --> 1:37:18.040 but we also have a practice of really elevating volunteers 1:37:18.520 --> 1:37:23.600 who show capacity and interest to be more engaged in strategy. 1:37:24.200 --> 1:37:27.919 So canvassers are also strategic actors. 1:37:28.320 --> 1:37:29.680 That's sort of the first. 1:37:29.520 --> 1:37:30.680 Rung of engagement. 1:37:31.240 --> 1:37:33.720 I mean, canvassing could just be like, oh, go out 1:37:33.720 --> 1:37:37.559 and do this, but we really actively seek to create 1:37:37.600 --> 1:37:42.400 a feedback loop between canvassing and other parts of a campaign. 1:37:42.640 --> 1:37:46.760 So not only is canvassing data of course very critical 1:37:46.880 --> 1:37:50.960 and tracking ID progress and things like that, but we 1:37:51.120 --> 1:37:57.320 also teach our field leads to lead canvases, to solicit feedback, 1:37:57.479 --> 1:38:00.439 and to systematize that feedback. What do you hearing on 1:38:00.520 --> 1:38:03.639 the doors? Did you meet anyone interesting? Should we follow 1:38:03.720 --> 1:38:06.639 up with that person? And I've seen in real time 1:38:07.479 --> 1:38:11.479 our messaging overall change because of feedback that canvassors are 1:38:11.520 --> 1:38:14.960 getting on the doors. From the next rung, if a 1:38:15.040 --> 1:38:19.240 canvasser is really great and excited, we often encourage them 1:38:19.280 --> 1:38:20.400 to become a field lead. 1:38:20.960 --> 1:38:22.720 These are pretty. 1:38:22.560 --> 1:38:28.720 Intensive and high responsibility jobs. So these people manage logistics, 1:38:29.280 --> 1:38:34.400 they run trainings, they move materials around if there are 1:38:34.600 --> 1:38:38.679 problems or questions that come up during a canvas or after. 1:38:39.000 --> 1:38:42.800 They're the first point of contact for these volunteers. They're 1:38:42.840 --> 1:38:46.800 really quite skilled leaders, and we try to create as 1:38:46.800 --> 1:38:50.320 many of these people as possible, And that's kind of 1:38:50.360 --> 1:38:54.880 the next rung of engagement from there. It sort of 1:38:54.960 --> 1:38:59.439 varies from campaign to a campaign, but on most of 1:38:59.479 --> 1:39:03.919 the campaigns that I've seen, you have robust volunteer teams 1:39:04.400 --> 1:39:08.160 around all of these functional areas. There's a fundraising team 1:39:08.560 --> 1:39:13.200 who are trying to execute not only comms and digital strategy, 1:39:13.320 --> 1:39:16.800 but also peer to fear fundraising and house parties. There 1:39:16.920 --> 1:39:21.599 is a communications team who, yes, we're closely with staff often, 1:39:21.840 --> 1:39:25.759 but is drafting and helping produce a level of content 1:39:25.920 --> 1:39:28.800 that you know, if you're a state assembly race and 1:39:28.880 --> 1:39:31.920 you have two staffers, it's pretty hard to produce as 1:39:32.000 --> 1:39:33.679 much content as you might want. 1:39:33.800 --> 1:39:34.479 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 1:39:34.600 --> 1:39:38.880 There's research who are helping do oppoh and helping figure 1:39:38.920 --> 1:39:41.400 out what stories we might be able to place in 1:39:41.960 --> 1:39:47.080 the press. So these areas that can be pretty opaque 1:39:47.240 --> 1:39:50.519 in some ways and are not often a visible part 1:39:50.600 --> 1:39:53.240 of the political process, we really try to open up 1:39:53.280 --> 1:39:56.799 and invite people into and then we talk openly about 1:39:56.800 --> 1:40:01.160 that in our debriefs and also in our endorsement inforums themselves. 1:40:01.840 --> 1:40:04.360 And I guess something else said people might not be 1:40:04.439 --> 1:40:05.840 fully aware of that. There's cause there's kind of like 1:40:05.840 --> 1:40:10.040 two ways of like fielding candidates. Candidates can be DSA endorsed, 1:40:10.360 --> 1:40:13.679 and then you can have DSA members who then run 1:40:13.720 --> 1:40:16.559 for office and for the people who are more kind 1:40:16.560 --> 1:40:18.680 of like outside of the organization but seek seek a 1:40:18.760 --> 1:40:22.240 DSA endorsement. If they secure it, they then get access 1:40:22.320 --> 1:40:25.200 right to this, to this, this whole like on the 1:40:25.240 --> 1:40:27.439 ground like organizing network and that, and that could be 1:40:27.479 --> 1:40:30.519 very appealing, But there's certain things that endorsement is like 1:40:30.600 --> 1:40:33.280 contingent on in terms of like platform. As you said, 1:40:33.360 --> 1:40:36.240 it's a pretty it's a pretty intensive process actually to 1:40:36.320 --> 1:40:50.680 get a DSA endorsement. After the series of victories New 1:40:50.720 --> 1:40:53.720 or DSA has has had the past few months, has 1:40:53.760 --> 1:40:55.880 that affected the size of the membership in like any 1:40:55.960 --> 1:40:58.400 like notable ways? Is like is that grown the man 1:40:58.439 --> 1:41:00.519 up on the ground volunteers like that? What the next 1:41:00.520 --> 1:41:02.040 campaigns are? Oh? 1:41:02.160 --> 1:41:07.160 Absolutely, I mean, of course we are subject to like 1:41:07.320 --> 1:41:12.840 macro political trends. Right, we see large jumps when there's 1:41:12.880 --> 1:41:16.280 a presidential election, like we saw it in twenty sixteen. 1:41:16.760 --> 1:41:19.320 I saw it again in twenty twenty and in twenty 1:41:19.360 --> 1:41:24.000 four But you know, not every campaign results in a 1:41:24.120 --> 1:41:28.640 huge membership boost. I think they do all result in 1:41:28.680 --> 1:41:31.960 a large capacity boost because even if we're not gaining 1:41:32.000 --> 1:41:35.719 new people numerically, we're expanding the skill set of people 1:41:35.760 --> 1:41:40.240 who are there. But last year, certainly we gained a 1:41:40.280 --> 1:41:43.599 lot of a lot of members between the time that 1:41:43.760 --> 1:41:48.120 Zaron announced his campaign in the fall of twenty twenty four, 1:41:48.760 --> 1:41:52.679 and now we've almost tripled in size in New York City, 1:41:53.200 --> 1:41:58.400 and between the primary elections this year, so June twenty 1:41:58.400 --> 1:42:03.160 third and today, so about a month, we have gained 1:42:03.160 --> 1:42:04.479 over a thousand members. 1:42:04.800 --> 1:42:07.800 So we are obviously. 1:42:07.240 --> 1:42:10.280 Helped along by like high profile wins too that the 1:42:10.360 --> 1:42:13.360 media is really interested in covering, and then we get 1:42:13.479 --> 1:42:17.679 kind of more eyeballs on our ideas and more interest 1:42:17.720 --> 1:42:21.280 in the project overall. So there are some some wins 1:42:21.320 --> 1:42:24.320 that results in a lot of members, but every win 1:42:24.560 --> 1:42:29.639 I think expands capacity, and even losses expand capacity because 1:42:29.640 --> 1:42:33.479 we're teaching people these skills and we're able to better 1:42:33.560 --> 1:42:36.120 replicate ourselves for future cycles. 1:42:37.000 --> 1:42:41.080 I'm sure, as most people are aware, we are right 1:42:41.080 --> 1:42:42.920 in the middle of like a huge debate right now 1:42:42.960 --> 1:42:45.760 over the future of the Democratic Party. And you know, 1:42:45.840 --> 1:42:48.840 this debate is being waged onlines, being waged in the newspaper, 1:42:49.160 --> 1:42:53.240 it's on TV news TV, and most importantly right in 1:42:53.400 --> 1:42:56.400 the in the primaries right and then eventually the general elections. 1:42:56.720 --> 1:42:58.640 You know, it seems like every week The Atlantic has 1:42:58.680 --> 1:43:02.559 a new article out about how scary the Democratic Socialists 1:43:02.560 --> 1:43:04.920 are as I mentioned. I think today they put out 1:43:04.920 --> 1:43:08.760 a brand new article about like the secret like Trotskyism 1:43:09.640 --> 1:43:10.400 of DSA. 1:43:11.000 --> 1:43:14.160 I saw that, which I mean, all these articles suggest 1:43:14.240 --> 1:43:18.200 to me that they neither understand DSA nor do they 1:43:18.280 --> 1:43:22.880 understand the history or ideology they're comparing us too. 1:43:23.680 --> 1:43:27.799 Yeah, but it's been really interesting, especially after the winds 1:43:27.800 --> 1:43:32.960 in New York and Colorado and Pennsylvania, hopefully in Wisconsin. 1:43:33.200 --> 1:43:34.960 But this past month we've seen more and more like 1:43:35.040 --> 1:43:40.360 establishment democrats join people like President Trump and Fox News 1:43:40.360 --> 1:43:43.439 in effectively declaring war on the DSA and like the 1:43:43.520 --> 1:43:46.280 left wing of the party. And you know, there's this 1:43:46.360 --> 1:43:49.439 idea that you see in The Atlantic Washington Post that 1:43:49.760 --> 1:43:52.840 you know, communists and socialists are taking over the Democratic Party. 1:43:53.479 --> 1:43:55.479 But I think for a chunk of the people listening 1:43:55.479 --> 1:43:58.960 to this show, their concerns are probably more of the 1:43:58.960 --> 1:44:03.240 oppositet running as a Democrat. These Democratic Socialist candidates risk 1:44:03.360 --> 1:44:07.040 being captured and like brought into the very party establishment 1:44:07.040 --> 1:44:09.280 that they're trying to oppose. I guess i'd like you 1:44:09.320 --> 1:44:12.480 to speak on what is the nature of the DSA's 1:44:12.520 --> 1:44:15.040 relationship to the Democratic Party. 1:44:15.680 --> 1:44:18.680 Yeah, I mean the thing about the Democratic Party that 1:44:18.760 --> 1:44:23.280 I think a lot of media and political pundits miss 1:44:23.400 --> 1:44:26.200 is that there's no one to have a relationship with, 1:44:26.520 --> 1:44:30.160 right Like the Democratic Party is three boys in a suit, 1:44:30.200 --> 1:44:32.840 like there's no one to talk to. That's why they 1:44:33.040 --> 1:44:36.679 can't act like a party does in Europe. I mean, 1:44:36.800 --> 1:44:40.080 of course there are electoral and ballot reasons for that 1:44:40.240 --> 1:44:44.320 as well, But the Democratic Party does not really organize 1:44:44.920 --> 1:44:48.240 either voters who are Democrats, right Like, no one has 1:44:48.280 --> 1:44:51.840 ever attempted to organize me as a Democrat because I 1:44:51.880 --> 1:44:57.240 am a registered Democrat. Nor is there really a serious 1:44:57.320 --> 1:45:03.479 effort to organize Democratic elected officials as a block and 1:45:04.000 --> 1:45:08.639 move in the same direction like that infrastructure simply doesn't exist. 1:45:09.240 --> 1:45:14.280 So I feel like the risk of being captured is 1:45:14.320 --> 1:45:17.880 only a risk in so far as DSA does not 1:45:18.080 --> 1:45:22.080 try to keep our own people organized and acting as 1:45:22.120 --> 1:45:26.320 a block, which is very much central to our project. 1:45:26.840 --> 1:45:30.000 And in New York City, for example, we have weekly 1:45:30.040 --> 1:45:34.559 meetings with both our state legislators and our city council members, 1:45:35.000 --> 1:45:39.040 and now we have regular meetings with administration officials as 1:45:39.120 --> 1:45:43.880 well in the mayoral administration that try to keep us 1:45:43.880 --> 1:45:46.840 all on the same page when we have a big 1:45:46.880 --> 1:45:49.559 project that we're moving on together. Like tax the rich 1:45:49.840 --> 1:45:54.680 was this last legislative session, we do really active organizing 1:45:54.800 --> 1:45:58.200 in those meetings, like Okay, have you talked to your 1:45:58.280 --> 1:45:59.519 colleague about this bill? 1:46:00.120 --> 1:46:00.880 Will they move? 1:46:01.080 --> 1:46:03.800 Do we need to pressure them someway from the outside, 1:46:03.880 --> 1:46:07.400 or do you think you'll get somewhere in internal conversations. 1:46:08.120 --> 1:46:12.080 So to me, I don't feel worried about being captured 1:46:12.880 --> 1:46:18.040 by the Democrats because the Democrats don't have the infrastructure 1:46:18.120 --> 1:46:21.720 to capture people. The people who can capture you are 1:46:22.000 --> 1:46:26.720 like moneyed interests, right, big corporations, and sure sometimes they 1:46:26.760 --> 1:46:30.320 act through the Democratic Party, but for us that's such 1:46:30.360 --> 1:46:33.799 a clear red line that they don't feel super concerned 1:46:33.840 --> 1:46:38.240 about it. The more complicated questions are not so much 1:46:38.360 --> 1:46:42.479 of capture, but of when do we compromise right? Sure, 1:46:42.680 --> 1:46:44.880 we could be a block of people who vote know 1:46:46.000 --> 1:46:49.759 on every budget, right, every state budget, every city budget 1:46:49.920 --> 1:46:51.360 is politically compromised. 1:46:51.400 --> 1:46:52.160 It's not enough. 1:46:52.240 --> 1:46:56.120 They never tax the rich enough, they never fund public 1:46:56.160 --> 1:46:57.080 services enough. 1:46:58.160 --> 1:46:59.479 It's never good. 1:47:00.120 --> 1:47:02.559 But if we always say no, then can we. 1:47:02.560 --> 1:47:04.320 Get any any wins? 1:47:04.720 --> 1:47:07.920 What kind of wins are the you know, the non 1:47:07.960 --> 1:47:12.599 reformist reforms we might be looking for and deciding that 1:47:13.000 --> 1:47:17.800 collectively doesn't mean our choice is always correct, but I 1:47:17.880 --> 1:47:20.800 think it's much more likely to be correct than if 1:47:20.800 --> 1:47:24.439 we let even someone who's that committed Democratic Socialist kind 1:47:24.439 --> 1:47:26.920 of go out on their own and try to make 1:47:26.960 --> 1:47:31.519 those decisions by themselves. The collectiveness and the connection to DSA, 1:47:32.200 --> 1:47:36.120 I think is the biggest barrier to the capture that 1:47:36.160 --> 1:47:39.120 people are worried about. Whereas if we just say no 1:47:39.200 --> 1:47:43.800 to everything, if we ran as third party, I think, well, 1:47:43.800 --> 1:47:45.639 if we've been as third party, I don't think we'd 1:47:45.760 --> 1:47:48.879 ever win. But if we just say no to everything 1:47:49.000 --> 1:47:54.800 and our orientation is as like a morally upstanding group that. 1:47:54.880 --> 1:47:58.120 Doesn't achieve anything, I think we lose. 1:47:57.880 --> 1:48:02.040 Our credibility, not only in the eyes of like the 1:48:02.040 --> 1:48:05.760 political class and of other politicians, but in the eyes 1:48:05.800 --> 1:48:08.400 of voters. Right now, we can look at a voter 1:48:08.560 --> 1:48:11.800 have a conversation on a door about how we are. 1:48:11.720 --> 1:48:12.840 A different type of. 1:48:12.800 --> 1:48:17.040 Politician because look at what Saran has already done. Saran 1:48:17.120 --> 1:48:20.000 FROs your rent. Yeah, we are the group behind Zoran. 1:48:20.479 --> 1:48:23.000 Don't you want more people like him? And if Soran 1:48:23.080 --> 1:48:25.040 hadn't frosen the rent, that would be a much harder 1:48:25.080 --> 1:48:26.240 conversation to have. 1:48:26.760 --> 1:48:29.519 No it is really easy to point to the like 1:48:29.680 --> 1:48:32.320 the delivering of goods and be like, yeah, this is 1:48:32.400 --> 1:48:34.880 what we are about, and this is actually you know, 1:48:34.960 --> 1:48:37.479 improving the lives of workers, and like that is what matters. 1:48:37.600 --> 1:48:41.439 What else is this whole project for? I can understand that, 1:48:41.520 --> 1:48:44.120 you know, people are concerned with like the idea of 1:48:44.160 --> 1:48:48.280 like holding politicians accountable, right, holding politicans accountable to this 1:48:48.400 --> 1:48:50.519 you know, working class platform that they're running on, that 1:48:50.960 --> 1:48:54.080 they were elected to represent that the organizing put them 1:48:54.120 --> 1:48:56.880 into office to fulfill. But I think one of the 1:48:56.920 --> 1:49:00.400 biggest ways to do that is through a mass membership 1:49:00.479 --> 1:49:04.559 organization like DSA, because not only does it provide you know, 1:49:04.680 --> 1:49:07.920 campaign infrastructure which could help them get re elected if 1:49:07.960 --> 1:49:11.800 they stick to this vision, but it also provides this 1:49:11.920 --> 1:49:14.599 sort of like like like social bond, this internal process 1:49:14.760 --> 1:49:18.200 to stay being tethered together while they are serving or 1:49:18.240 --> 1:49:22.240 occupying a seat of power. And once you're occupying a 1:49:22.280 --> 1:49:24.439 seat of power, there is obviously constraints on that power 1:49:24.439 --> 1:49:28.320 and there's going to be contradictions that arise, and I 1:49:28.320 --> 1:49:31.120 think a lot of people, especially online, view those contradictions 1:49:31.160 --> 1:49:32.800 as like a bad thing. That's like a reason to 1:49:32.880 --> 1:49:36.960 not engage in this project. Alternatively, I think those contradictions 1:49:37.000 --> 1:49:39.680 are actually very often a good thing. Like this that 1:49:39.840 --> 1:49:42.080 is a sign that history is in progress, that we 1:49:42.120 --> 1:49:44.640 are actually moving forward and we're going to seek to 1:49:45.280 --> 1:49:48.080 resolve those like over time, and dealing with those contradictions 1:49:48.560 --> 1:49:51.240 is good in this sense that we have to deal 1:49:51.280 --> 1:49:52.960 with them. We actually we are at a point in 1:49:53.000 --> 1:49:54.800 our strategy where this is something to be dealt with 1:49:54.840 --> 1:49:57.639 as opposed to not engaging in this sort of strategy 1:49:57.680 --> 1:50:00.719 like at all. Right, And the power that politician has 1:50:00.800 --> 1:50:02.880 that is running on a working class platform, Their power 1:50:02.880 --> 1:50:05.000 comes from the working class, and the DSA is the 1:50:05.040 --> 1:50:09.120 manifestation of that, and DSA can be an anchor. But 1:50:09.160 --> 1:50:11.320 I think there also is these like questions of like 1:50:11.360 --> 1:50:14.280 this like long term vision, right, or if ds candidates 1:50:14.680 --> 1:50:17.479 are just going to have to like administer capitalism in 1:50:17.520 --> 1:50:19.880 a more equitable way, or if there really is like 1:50:19.920 --> 1:50:23.160 this the kind of bigger vision to increase the power 1:50:23.200 --> 1:50:25.680 of the working class towards some sort of you know, 1:50:25.800 --> 1:50:28.519 ultimate class struggle for socialism. And I guess, like is 1:50:28.520 --> 1:50:30.360 that like balance in their heads between this sort of 1:50:30.439 --> 1:50:35.080 like equitable administration and like this ultimate class struggle. 1:50:35.560 --> 1:50:37.240 Yeah, it certainly is. 1:50:37.439 --> 1:50:42.920 I mean thinking about how we actually permanently change power 1:50:42.960 --> 1:50:47.960 structures and not just kind of mitigate harm. I think 1:50:48.120 --> 1:50:53.240 is one of the things that separates a socialist from progressive. Sure, 1:50:53.439 --> 1:50:56.080 some ideas that I'm really excited about that I would 1:50:56.120 --> 1:50:57.200 point to that that. 1:50:57.160 --> 1:50:58.640 Do some of this. 1:50:58.640 --> 1:51:01.960 This didn't pass, but I think something like the pro 1:51:02.040 --> 1:51:06.599 Act absolutely would that expand and makes it easier for 1:51:06.920 --> 1:51:12.000 workers to organize themselves and empowers unions is part of 1:51:12.040 --> 1:51:16.280 that structure and central to what democratic socialists want to do. 1:51:16.920 --> 1:51:19.920 In fact, right now, Actually in New York City, there 1:51:20.040 --> 1:51:24.479 is a bill held by City Council Member Tiffany Caban, 1:51:24.640 --> 1:51:28.200 who's a DSA member and a City Socialist in office, 1:51:28.240 --> 1:51:33.800 called the Delivery Protection Act that would functionally make it 1:51:33.840 --> 1:51:38.760 extremely difficult for Amazon to consider last mild delivery workers 1:51:39.320 --> 1:51:44.760 as individual contractors and force them to be employees of Amazon, 1:51:45.400 --> 1:51:48.720 which one makes sense, like it's crazy that all these 1:51:48.760 --> 1:51:51.080 people in Amazon trucks that you see all the time 1:51:51.160 --> 1:51:56.320 are contractors when functionally they're not. Everything that they have 1:51:56.439 --> 1:52:01.200 to do is controlled by Amazon, and doing that we're 1:52:01.200 --> 1:52:04.400 partnering with the teamsters on it because doing it would 1:52:04.439 --> 1:52:09.120 make those workers unionizable. Yes, and that's a huge workforce 1:52:09.200 --> 1:52:12.400 in your city. So that's kind of the labor example. 1:52:12.840 --> 1:52:16.960 Another piece that I'm really excited about. So yes, Ron 1:52:17.400 --> 1:52:22.680 throws the rents. That's an extension of government power in 1:52:22.720 --> 1:52:26.439 the market. But one thing that is really promising is 1:52:26.439 --> 1:52:31.120 that the administration is exploring how to legally recognize and 1:52:31.160 --> 1:52:35.519 empower tenant unions in a way that you know, workers' 1:52:35.600 --> 1:52:39.680 unions are recognized, so that tenant unions actually have bargaining 1:52:39.880 --> 1:52:43.559 rights with a landlord. And we don't have all the 1:52:43.600 --> 1:52:47.479 answers for how that would look, but that's I think 1:52:47.520 --> 1:52:51.280 another example of a type of reform, a type of 1:52:51.360 --> 1:52:57.880 policy that is explicitly socialist and is actually trying to 1:52:58.280 --> 1:53:03.880 permanently change the power relationship between tenants and landlords, just 1:53:04.000 --> 1:53:08.599 as joining a worker's union changes the power relationship between 1:53:08.600 --> 1:53:09.960 a worker and a supervisor. 1:53:10.400 --> 1:53:12.599 So I'm not saying we have the. 1:53:12.600 --> 1:53:16.680 Perfect answers across all policy areas, and certainly there are 1:53:16.720 --> 1:53:22.040 policy areas that socialists will will advocate for and get 1:53:22.040 --> 1:53:27.200 behind that I would consider more progressive because our country 1:53:27.240 --> 1:53:31.639 and society is a very harsh environment for many people, 1:53:31.680 --> 1:53:35.639 and mitigating harm is in fact something good to do. 1:53:36.000 --> 1:53:36.680 Yeah, but it. 1:53:36.640 --> 1:53:39.200 Cannot be the sole thing we do. 1:53:39.479 --> 1:53:44.479 And backing these types of non reformance reforms ideas that 1:53:45.040 --> 1:53:47.759 change power structures is central to our work. 1:53:48.720 --> 1:53:52.400 Yeah, I think this sort of tension between this sort 1:53:52.400 --> 1:53:57.280 of more like social democratic administration of capitalism and like 1:53:57.439 --> 1:53:59.800 just pushing for you know, like the revolution or something 1:53:59.840 --> 1:54:05.200 is of false economy, and oftentimes it can resemble the 1:54:06.560 --> 1:54:10.200 This is bad referencing Twitter, but there's this old tweet 1:54:10.240 --> 1:54:14.840 that's like, don't siege Leningrad, take it immediately, Like, don't 1:54:14.840 --> 1:54:17.880 build work in class power, just do the revolution. But 1:54:18.000 --> 1:54:20.559 if you look at like where the labor movement in 1:54:20.600 --> 1:54:24.639 the US is right now, we are so behind where 1:54:24.680 --> 1:54:27.559 the movement was in the twenties and thirties that allowed 1:54:27.680 --> 1:54:31.120 workers to extract the New Deal. We have a long 1:54:31.200 --> 1:54:33.640 way to go to be able to really threaten capital 1:54:33.680 --> 1:54:38.240 in a serious way. And these minor social democratic policies, 1:54:38.440 --> 1:54:41.560 rather than being a release valve, could in fact provide 1:54:41.600 --> 1:54:46.080 workers more autonomy and the extra time needed to organize 1:54:46.080 --> 1:54:49.960 and keep building power. Like Another thing from Zoron's rent 1:54:49.960 --> 1:54:54.400 reforms is that the administration is advancing a new rule 1:54:54.520 --> 1:54:59.320 that landlords could only request proof of income or a 1:54:59.400 --> 1:55:03.320 credit check, but not both in apartment applications, and like, 1:55:03.400 --> 1:55:06.760 that would be huge for people, right, And there's there's 1:55:06.800 --> 1:55:09.440 ways to do small stuff like that well also, you know, 1:55:09.560 --> 1:55:12.160 in a bigger sense, trying to just increase the amount 1:55:12.200 --> 1:55:16.360 that our society is socialist. Right, that's through public ownership 1:55:16.400 --> 1:55:19.640 of utilities and key industries, commodifying necessities of life like 1:55:20.040 --> 1:55:23.960 housing or food, and democratizing the workplace. I've been yelling 1:55:24.000 --> 1:55:26.440 about the Protect the Right to Organize Act in my 1:55:26.520 --> 1:55:28.760 personal life a lot lately. I've been kind of just 1:55:28.800 --> 1:55:32.120 like evangelizing about the pro Act because that that is 1:55:32.160 --> 1:55:34.520 something that like, if that, if that gets past, that 1:55:34.560 --> 1:55:37.400 would be one of the biggest boosts to working class 1:55:37.440 --> 1:55:39.520 power that we've seen in probably decades. 1:55:39.680 --> 1:55:42.800 Yeah, and I mean having Clara val Does is a 1:55:42.880 --> 1:55:47.680 labor organizer, like that was her first organizing experience, and yeah, 1:55:47.720 --> 1:55:50.760 there's no one like that in Congress right now, you know. 1:55:50.880 --> 1:55:53.000 So I don't know that. 1:55:53.120 --> 1:55:56.560 Her first move will be the Proact, but it's certainly 1:55:56.640 --> 1:55:57.880 top of mind for her. 1:55:58.560 --> 1:56:00.400 That kind of relates to one of the las quests 1:56:00.560 --> 1:56:03.520 I want to get to. But first, let's do one 1:56:03.600 --> 1:56:17.520 last ad break. Okay, we are back. How does the 1:56:17.600 --> 1:56:21.400 DSA actually communicate with and relate to a broader working 1:56:21.440 --> 1:56:24.760 class base, like like a broader working class like coalition, right, 1:56:24.760 --> 1:56:27.680 Because this is the politics that DSA is about, and 1:56:27.760 --> 1:56:30.480 this is the class that DSA is trying to like uplift. 1:56:30.920 --> 1:56:33.920 What exactly is like the nature of the relationship between 1:56:34.000 --> 1:56:35.560 DSA and the working class. 1:56:36.160 --> 1:56:42.240 DSA is striving to be a multi racial working class organization. 1:56:43.120 --> 1:56:44.640 I would say that right. 1:56:44.520 --> 1:56:49.160 Now, the majority of not entirety of our membership, not 1:56:49.280 --> 1:56:52.400 only in New York City but also nationally are our 1:56:52.480 --> 1:56:57.440 working class. We embrace it pretty broad definition of that, 1:56:57.960 --> 1:57:02.080 because the only way you get class solidarity is by 1:57:02.560 --> 1:57:06.840 you know, refraining from nitpicking who is middle class, who's 1:57:06.840 --> 1:57:10.480 working class, who's working for and like separating the interests 1:57:10.480 --> 1:57:15.680 of those groups and recognizing that basically anyone who relies 1:57:15.720 --> 1:57:19.720 on their own labor in order to live is working 1:57:19.760 --> 1:57:23.240 class and they have a lot more in common than 1:57:23.680 --> 1:57:26.720 the people who live off of their own wealth, and 1:57:26.760 --> 1:57:30.920 that we should be united in basically finding the interests 1:57:30.960 --> 1:57:35.160 of the uber wealthy who run our lives and run 1:57:35.200 --> 1:57:38.960 our economy. So I would say we're already a working 1:57:38.960 --> 1:57:42.560 class organization, but we want to become one much bigger 1:57:43.000 --> 1:57:46.840 and also more diverse, more people in different types of industry, 1:57:47.280 --> 1:57:51.640 more people from across different demographics. It's trending that way 1:57:52.280 --> 1:57:53.120 over the last. 1:57:53.000 --> 1:57:53.760 Couple of years. 1:57:54.280 --> 1:57:57.120 But we need to get more of. 1:57:57.080 --> 1:58:00.160 The people who vote for our candidates to also take 1:58:00.200 --> 1:58:05.920 the plunge into becoming a member and into actively organizing 1:58:06.160 --> 1:58:08.120 to better their own conditions. 1:58:08.560 --> 1:58:10.120 So I'm excited about. 1:58:09.840 --> 1:58:13.920 How things are heading in that direction. It's also true 1:58:13.960 --> 1:58:17.920 that becoming all to racial working class organization in the 1:58:18.120 --> 1:58:23.800 US is notoriously difficult. You know, a country that's divided 1:58:24.200 --> 1:58:28.480 violently not only by class divisions, but also by racial ones. 1:58:28.560 --> 1:58:31.960 So we have an uphill battle. But I think we're 1:58:31.960 --> 1:58:35.320 moving in the right direction, and voting trends showed that too. 1:58:35.480 --> 1:58:40.200 Like Claire Valdez one a majority of Hispanic election districts 1:58:40.200 --> 1:58:42.919 in her area do I lead to one of majority 1:58:42.960 --> 1:58:46.480 of Black election districts in her district. So I think 1:58:46.480 --> 1:58:49.440 we're seeing that these ideas have more and more mass 1:58:49.440 --> 1:58:55.440 appeal as voters are looking especially as establishment democrats who 1:58:55.520 --> 1:58:59.320 are really just continuously failing to stand up the Trump 1:59:00.080 --> 1:59:03.120 and more people are saying maybe we need to try 1:59:03.160 --> 1:59:06.360 something different. What's the socialism all about? 1:59:07.120 --> 1:59:09.920 There was an article in your Times by the time 1:59:09.920 --> 1:59:11.440 you were listening to this, like a few weeks ago, 1:59:11.720 --> 1:59:14.280 looking at like the voting data from the last June primary, 1:59:14.600 --> 1:59:18.560 and it showed like the divisions in voter behavior between 1:59:18.560 --> 1:59:22.280 like DSA candidates and either progressive or establishment candidates was 1:59:22.320 --> 1:59:25.160 not largely divided by race, but rather by age. Yes, 1:59:25.400 --> 1:59:27.840 And I think that is another significant factor in this. 1:59:28.440 --> 1:59:33.440 And we're also I notably holding on to millennial voters. 1:59:33.720 --> 1:59:40.000 I mean, trends show that, unlike previous generations, millennials tend 1:59:40.080 --> 1:59:44.879 to stay fairly left as they age, in part perhaps 1:59:44.960 --> 1:59:48.640 because millennials aren't really gaining well as we age. 1:59:50.040 --> 1:59:53.920 The capital system has nothing to offer though, Yeah, so yeah, 1:59:54.000 --> 1:59:57.040 why why would you make like the fiscal conservative turn 1:59:58.240 --> 2:00:01.400 to close out a A few weeks before the June primary, 2:00:01.960 --> 2:00:07.360 Canary Mission started getting very scared of the dssay. They 2:00:07.400 --> 2:00:09.840 put out this big, this big post on you know, 2:00:10.160 --> 2:00:13.840 the the slate candidates. But once something that I found 2:00:13.840 --> 2:00:16.440 to be more interesting rather than just like, you know, 2:00:17.120 --> 2:00:19.440 talking about who these candidates are, they focused a lot 2:00:19.480 --> 2:00:21.680 on like the organizational structure of New York d Essay 2:00:22.200 --> 2:00:25.680 and how quote New York is the testing ground. The 2:00:25.680 --> 2:00:29.520 machine is already being built. The machine doesn't stop unquote, 2:00:30.000 --> 2:00:31.760 which sounds kind of cool. 2:00:32.040 --> 2:00:34.240 Yeah, right, they made they made it sound like. 2:00:34.360 --> 2:00:37.240 Cool if you ignore all of the like horrible evil 2:00:37.280 --> 2:00:40.160 parts of the Canary mission right up, they kind of 2:00:40.200 --> 2:00:43.000 make New York d Essay sound pretty cool. How you know? 2:00:43.080 --> 2:00:45.880 It has all these members almost like one hundred thousand volunteers, 2:00:45.920 --> 2:00:49.120 all these field leads that coordinates with candidates once they 2:00:49.320 --> 2:00:52.360 get into office and maintains that connection, helps them, helps 2:00:52.400 --> 2:00:53.320 them stay accountable. 2:00:53.640 --> 2:00:56.360 It's funny too they treat it like a big secret, 2:00:56.480 --> 2:00:59.360 like they're revealing something when like I literally just told 2:00:59.400 --> 2:01:02.400 you the same, right, Like it's not a secret. 2:01:03.040 --> 2:01:06.520 But you know, considering stuff like this and the dsa momentum' 2:01:06.560 --> 2:01:09.000 seeing across the country and the reaction is getting from 2:01:09.560 --> 2:01:13.120 the GOP, the president and the Democratic Party establishment, what 2:01:13.240 --> 2:01:16.560 can organizers and you know, chapters around the country learn 2:01:16.880 --> 2:01:21.160 from New York City dsay's electoral strategy or like, what's 2:01:21.160 --> 2:01:23.560 what's something that I think New York DSAY is doing 2:01:24.080 --> 2:01:25.840 that that you would like more people to kind of 2:01:25.960 --> 2:01:28.360 understand or you'd like you'd like people to like, you know, 2:01:28.480 --> 2:01:31.280 learn from or like take take something away from what 2:01:31.320 --> 2:01:33.560 we've seen in these past few campaigns. 2:01:34.120 --> 2:01:40.160 Yeah, one thing, especially after Zoran one that I noticed 2:01:40.520 --> 2:01:45.200 is a lot of people were really focused on his 2:01:45.640 --> 2:01:51.640 charisma and his communications strategy, which Zoran is certainly charismatic, 2:01:52.000 --> 2:01:56.400 and his communication strategy was really strong and very intentional. 2:01:57.360 --> 2:02:01.720 But to me, his community cation strategy would have. 2:02:02.240 --> 2:02:06.040 Not gone anywhere if one he hadn't been saying something 2:02:06.320 --> 2:02:10.360 real that people resonated with. I mean, people are not 2:02:11.120 --> 2:02:16.240 totally fooled by an empty charismatic vessel. I mean, otherwise 2:02:16.320 --> 2:02:19.760 Jack Slosberg would have won in New Year twelve I think. 2:02:20.520 --> 2:02:25.360 But also there was an extremely robust field strategy that 2:02:25.480 --> 2:02:29.880 meant when someone saw a video wasn't inspired or interested, 2:02:30.360 --> 2:02:33.760 they could immediately find something to do to act on 2:02:33.800 --> 2:02:37.400 that feeling. And often they could find something to do 2:02:37.880 --> 2:02:41.680 basically within a mile and within a week of where 2:02:41.680 --> 2:02:42.800 they lived, in what day. 2:02:42.840 --> 2:02:45.440 It was the. 2:02:44.800 --> 2:02:47.760 Core of this run campaign was not communication that was 2:02:47.800 --> 2:02:52.240 fueled and building up that structure and that muscle can 2:02:52.520 --> 2:02:54.640 take a lot of time. You know, it's hard to 2:02:55.280 --> 2:02:59.440 jump from zero to a mayoral race, but it is 2:02:59.600 --> 2:03:04.680 possible if you build out the kind of deep ownership 2:03:04.920 --> 2:03:08.840 from like an endorsement process, and also a culture of 2:03:09.560 --> 2:03:15.680 not only valuing volunteers but really like depending on volunteers. Like, 2:03:15.880 --> 2:03:21.360 the campaign doesn't work if volunteers are expendable, if volunteers 2:03:21.360 --> 2:03:24.160 are treated as like an ancilliary. 2:03:23.680 --> 2:03:24.320 Nice to have. 2:03:25.200 --> 2:03:30.920 It only works if volunteers are both treated and truly 2:03:31.080 --> 2:03:32.160 are essential. 2:03:32.840 --> 2:03:36.040 And that kind of creates a culture. 2:03:35.680 --> 2:03:38.960 Where people are valued, where they become friends, where they 2:03:39.000 --> 2:03:41.680 keep coming back, or they talk to their friends and 2:03:41.760 --> 2:03:43.600 family about the campaign. 2:03:43.680 --> 2:03:45.080 Or things spread out from there. 2:03:45.880 --> 2:03:51.240 So what I would say both to DSA organizers in 2:03:51.280 --> 2:03:55.360 other parts of the country, but also just general organizers 2:03:55.360 --> 2:03:59.000 who are interested in replicating some of the success, I 2:03:59.000 --> 2:04:04.320 think culture sure is really key centering people who are 2:04:04.920 --> 2:04:08.200 not staff, who are not the politicians, making sure that 2:04:08.360 --> 2:04:11.600 the experience of the campaign is actually built around the 2:04:11.680 --> 2:04:14.200 experience of a canvasser and. 2:04:14.120 --> 2:04:15.160 Moving up from there. 2:04:15.640 --> 2:04:18.760 And that's how you get a campaign that is not 2:04:18.880 --> 2:04:22.480 only accountable to the people who are building it, but 2:04:22.680 --> 2:04:27.400 that's really fun and positive and grounded and people in 2:04:27.520 --> 2:04:32.200 place and not just in like kind of ideas and 2:04:32.720 --> 2:04:34.080 videos and things like that. 2:04:34.360 --> 2:04:38.240 So yeah, yeah, No, there's a real material aspect. It's 2:04:38.240 --> 2:04:40.880 not this just like idealistic kind of abstract thing that 2:04:40.880 --> 2:04:43.400 you're participating in or you believe in. It's a real, 2:04:43.920 --> 2:04:47.240 like material process. It's a real engagement. One of the 2:04:47.240 --> 2:04:49.680 funniest things I've seen recently is that there was a 2:04:49.720 --> 2:04:51.600 Wall Street Journal article where they sent one of their 2:04:51.720 --> 2:04:55.760 hit piece writers to attend all these DSA events, and 2:04:55.800 --> 2:04:58.000 the write up is essentially, uh, yeah, I had a 2:04:58.000 --> 2:05:01.720 great time at all these events. Everyone was really nice. 2:05:02.040 --> 2:05:02.760 I saw that. 2:05:03.560 --> 2:05:05.800 Yeah, there was like one of our one of our 2:05:05.840 --> 2:05:09.760 incoming assembly members, Yappasar du Bac, was like given a 2:05:09.760 --> 2:05:14.080 shout out because he like remembered someone's name, and I'm like, yeah, 2:05:14.240 --> 2:05:19.280 I don't know organizers remember people's face. That's that's a 2:05:19.480 --> 2:05:21.520 central part of our work. 2:05:22.600 --> 2:05:26.880 Where can do people learn more about DSA or New 2:05:26.960 --> 2:05:31.360 York DSA online or by any other means? 2:05:31.800 --> 2:05:35.520 So, yes, if you're in New York City or even 2:05:35.600 --> 2:05:39.960 near New York City, you can go to Socialists Dot NYC. 2:05:41.120 --> 2:05:44.040 There you can see how I joined DSA. 2:05:44.520 --> 2:05:48.480 You can look at our events calendar, which is robust. 2:05:48.920 --> 2:05:49.839 We're at a point. 2:05:49.680 --> 2:05:53.240 Where we have basically at least three events every single 2:05:53.320 --> 2:05:57.640 day that cover a wide range of geographies across the city, 2:05:57.800 --> 2:06:02.839 but also interests. There's a run club event on Friday, 2:06:02.960 --> 2:06:04.680 if that's of interest to people. 2:06:05.280 --> 2:06:08.320 If you're not in New York City, there is almost 2:06:08.320 --> 2:06:10.280 certainly a chapter where you live. 2:06:10.960 --> 2:06:15.440 You can go to DSAUSA dot org to join, but 2:06:15.560 --> 2:06:19.960 also to find your chapter, find out about national work 2:06:20.000 --> 2:06:24.040 that's going on, especially as it relates to like the 2:06:24.720 --> 2:06:29.600 ongoing imperialist wars we have that's often held by National DSA. 2:06:30.400 --> 2:06:33.200 So definitely encourage everyone to check those things out. 2:06:33.880 --> 2:06:35.240 Thank you Grace for coming on. 2:06:35.680 --> 2:06:36.800 Yeah, thanks for having me. 2:06:49.640 --> 2:06:50.400 Bradley Whitford. 2:06:51.760 --> 2:06:55.040 This is it could happen here Executive Disorder, our weekly 2:06:55.080 --> 2:06:57.880 newscast covering what's happening in the White House, the crumbling world, 2:06:57.920 --> 2:07:00.000 and what it means for you. I'm Garrison Davis today, 2:07:00.280 --> 2:07:02.800 joined by James Stout and Robert Evans. 2:07:03.120 --> 2:07:04.080 Surfie's also here. 2:07:04.560 --> 2:07:08.520 Sophie is also here. Allegedly we were talking West Wing 2:07:08.600 --> 2:07:09.240 before this. 2:07:09.680 --> 2:07:12.240 And Sophie has been excommunicated. 2:07:12.280 --> 2:07:15.440 Sophie said something that Robert will not let us repeat. 2:07:15.720 --> 2:07:18.240 Yeah, we legally can't repeat it. You'd all go to 2:07:18.280 --> 2:07:20.480 prison and we would be right to send you there. 2:07:20.640 --> 2:07:22.000 West Wing is in the TV show. 2:07:22.080 --> 2:07:22.320 Yeah. 2:07:22.360 --> 2:07:24.400 In this episode, we're covering the week of July twenty 2:07:24.480 --> 2:07:28.839 second to July twenty ninth, James some small things to start. 2:07:29.640 --> 2:07:32.800 Yeah. So today, on the day that we are recording, 2:07:32.800 --> 2:07:34.920 which is the twenty ninth of July, the United States 2:07:34.960 --> 2:07:39.360 and Saudi forces conducting strikes inside Iraq at what they 2:07:39.480 --> 2:07:45.880 are calling Iran backed terrorists. Comes after Iraqi National Security 2:07:45.920 --> 2:07:49.040 advisor earlier this week suggested that Ukraine was responsible for 2:07:49.080 --> 2:07:52.240 strikes inside Iraq, which is a thing that isn't true. 2:07:52.640 --> 2:07:56.920 Iran again attempted to target US bases in Jordan today, 2:07:57.360 --> 2:08:00.400 but at the time of recording, the US military reporting 2:08:00.400 --> 2:08:05.320 that smissiles were all intercepted. Iranian strikes from Kurdistan have continued, 2:08:05.880 --> 2:08:09.920 and Reuter's is reporting that Iran is soon to receive 2:08:10.120 --> 2:08:14.640 Chinese shoulder fired manpads. It's man portable air defense system. 2:08:15.000 --> 2:08:17.760 Women can use them too, probably not in Iran, but 2:08:19.000 --> 2:08:21.720 these are part of what Royce is saying is a 2:08:21.760 --> 2:08:25.120 recently signed deal between the two states. China course denying it, 2:08:25.200 --> 2:08:27.960 but that would be very interesting, right considering that it 2:08:28.000 --> 2:08:32.120 was a shoulder launched manpads that shut down the jet 2:08:32.160 --> 2:08:35.720 that triggered the massive SISA mission a few months ago. 2:08:36.000 --> 2:08:39.120 Yeah, it's always funny when something comes around like this 2:08:39.320 --> 2:08:43.280 in the history of like military colonialist adventures overseas. You know, 2:08:43.320 --> 2:08:45.360 it wasn't that so long ago that we were sending 2:08:45.360 --> 2:08:48.360 man pads into Afghanistan and the Soviets were going, Oh no, 2:08:48.520 --> 2:08:49.640 all of our helicopters. 2:08:49.720 --> 2:08:49.920 Yeah. 2:08:50.000 --> 2:08:53.000 Yeah, and yeah, it's just beautiful how cyclical nature is. 2:08:53.640 --> 2:08:56.280 Yeah, here we are finally. I want to talk about 2:08:56.320 --> 2:08:59.400 the TPS Temporary protect States of Fa Haitian people. So 2:08:59.520 --> 2:09:01.720 a few weeks ago on a Supreme Court special we 2:09:01.760 --> 2:09:06.080 spoke about the court case that effectively ended this protected 2:09:06.120 --> 2:09:09.680 status right and it is set to expire this week. 2:09:10.480 --> 2:09:13.320 We know that this will impact as many as three 2:09:13.440 --> 2:09:16.560 hundred and fifty thousand people are going with a number 2:09:16.600 --> 2:09:19.200 from Haitian Bridge Alliance. There a lot of these people 2:09:19.240 --> 2:09:21.000 that are going back. Is no an option, it's not 2:09:21.440 --> 2:09:23.200 in any way going to be safe for them, or 2:09:23.200 --> 2:09:25.400 they just don't simply have a place to go back to. There. 2:09:26.000 --> 2:09:29.400 Many of these people will have US citizen children who 2:09:29.480 --> 2:09:31.760 therefore will not lose CPS right, but it did. It's 2:09:31.840 --> 2:09:35.959 unclear what exactly, or I mean, I think the administration, 2:09:35.960 --> 2:09:37.880 she probably doesn't give a shit what happens to their children. 2:09:38.120 --> 2:09:40.360 I'm going to keep reporting on this or already rumors 2:09:40.360 --> 2:09:43.680 of ice rates targeting Haitian people. I'm going to try 2:09:43.720 --> 2:09:46.000 and get some folks on from HbA or one of 2:09:46.040 --> 2:09:49.040 the other avocacy organizations. But I'm going to wait a 2:09:49.080 --> 2:09:51.360 little bit, just to see how things play out in 2:09:51.360 --> 2:09:53.600 a couple of days. But I'm afraid whatever happens won't 2:09:53.640 --> 2:09:53.920 be great. 2:09:54.720 --> 2:09:57.920 The House approved the one point one five trillion dollar 2:09:58.160 --> 2:10:01.040 twenty twenty seven National Defense authors Sation Act, then a 2:10:01.080 --> 2:10:03.280 two hundred and sixteen to two hundred and twelve vote, 2:10:03.400 --> 2:10:07.440 largely on party lines, though six Democrats voted in support. 2:10:08.200 --> 2:10:12.040 The version of the bill that passed includes Section two nineteen, 2:10:12.480 --> 2:10:17.040 which expands cooperation between the US and Israeli militaries, specifically 2:10:17.120 --> 2:10:20.600 the co development of military technology and joint training and 2:10:20.640 --> 2:10:25.480 information sharing to deploy jointly develops technology. The budget contains 2:10:25.640 --> 2:10:29.920 seven hundred and fifty million for these US Israel joint programs. 2:10:30.400 --> 2:10:34.320 The bills currently stalled in the Senate. Core documents revealed 2:10:34.360 --> 2:10:37.959 that last October, the Trump administration canceled nearly eight billion 2:10:38.040 --> 2:10:43.360 dollars of clean energy grants by explicitly targeting states whose 2:10:43.400 --> 2:10:47.000 Electoral College votes once to Kamala Harris in twenty twenty four, 2:10:47.600 --> 2:10:51.360 or who have two senators who caucus with the Democrats 2:10:52.120 --> 2:10:56.280 that is Georgia, and lawyers for the part of Energy 2:10:56.320 --> 2:10:58.960 just explicitly lake this out in court doc saying that's 2:10:59.000 --> 2:11:03.400 how these grants were selected, was on these political lines. 2:11:03.720 --> 2:11:04.600 Yeah, incredible. 2:11:05.320 --> 2:11:09.680 Last Friday saw the White House Press Correspondence Dinner Take two. 2:11:10.200 --> 2:11:13.879 President Trump delivered a rambling monologue with what we're supposed 2:11:13.920 --> 2:11:17.919 to be jokes to very tepid reactions from a largely 2:11:18.120 --> 2:11:22.800 friendly audience. Once again, Trump joked about running for president. 2:11:22.840 --> 2:11:26.680 In twenty twenty eight, wolf Blitzer presented an award to 2:11:26.800 --> 2:11:29.760 the Wall Street Journal and their reporters for their reporting 2:11:29.840 --> 2:11:34.040 on the Trump signed Epstein birthday card, sparking a ten 2:11:34.120 --> 2:11:38.720 billion dollar defamation suit from the President. As wolf Blitzer 2:11:38.760 --> 2:11:42.520 presented the award, Trump laughed from his seat on stage 2:11:42.880 --> 2:11:46.240 before shaking hands with all the winners. The dinner, which 2:11:46.280 --> 2:11:49.800 ostensibly is to celebrate the free press in the First Amendment, 2:11:50.240 --> 2:11:53.440 took place the same week that the Trump administration subpoened 2:11:53.520 --> 2:11:56.480 New York Times journalists, their spouses, and one of their 2:11:56.480 --> 2:12:00.520 moms following Times reporting on the security capability of the 2:12:00.560 --> 2:12:05.040 Katari gifted Air Force one. The DOJ withdrew those subpoenas 2:12:05.080 --> 2:12:08.760 last Thursday after pressure from a federal judge, but that 2:12:08.840 --> 2:12:11.640 was not the only instance of press freedom coming under 2:12:11.680 --> 2:12:15.360 attack from the government justice last week. On July twenty second, 2:12:15.440 --> 2:12:20.320 the nonprofit newsroom Breakthrough News reported that they received a 2:12:20.360 --> 2:12:24.760 congressional subpoena from the Republican controlled Houseways and Means Committee 2:12:25.000 --> 2:12:30.440 demanding quote internal communications, financial records, and more. A letter 2:12:30.480 --> 2:12:32.600 to the outlet from the House committee said they were 2:12:32.640 --> 2:12:37.120 quote unquote disturbed by the outlet's connection to quote Chinese 2:12:37.120 --> 2:12:41.400 Communist Party linked organizations unquote, and that the committee was 2:12:41.440 --> 2:12:46.320 investigating connections between quote unquote tax exempt groups and foreign nations. 2:12:46.960 --> 2:12:50.040 This was, of course, following the State Department's left wing 2:12:50.240 --> 2:12:53.640 terrorism summit that we covered last week, and parallel to 2:12:53.720 --> 2:12:57.840 Mark Rubio's crusade against Cuba and what he sees as 2:12:58.000 --> 2:13:03.920 Cuba aligned left wing organisms. The People's Forum, a PSL 2:13:04.000 --> 2:13:07.760 linked left wing anti imperialist protest organization and community space 2:13:07.800 --> 2:13:10.680 in New York City which was named in Rubio's Cuba report, 2:13:11.440 --> 2:13:15.480 was also subpoenaed by the House Committee. The People's Forum 2:13:15.600 --> 2:13:18.600 was one of the organizers of the humanitarian aid trip 2:13:18.640 --> 2:13:20.360 to Cuba earlier this year. 2:13:21.280 --> 2:13:22.880 I've got a fun thing to talk about, all right, 2:13:22.960 --> 2:13:25.240 let's do it. What's fun. There's an article in The 2:13:25.280 --> 2:13:28.520 Guardian that just came out July twenty eighth that is 2:13:28.560 --> 2:13:31.720 about this new company based out of Austin called Campus 2:13:31.720 --> 2:13:34.520 Guardian Angel, which is taking lessons from the Ukrainian War 2:13:34.600 --> 2:13:38.640 and applying them to US public schools, specifically in Ukraine. 2:13:38.680 --> 2:13:41.760 They've seen a lot of luck in stopping breaches of 2:13:41.840 --> 2:13:44.320 areas of like the front of trenches and stuff using 2:13:44.600 --> 2:13:45.960 waves of small drones. 2:13:46.240 --> 2:13:49.760 Oh, I've seen this video. I know what you're talking about. 2:13:50.680 --> 2:13:53.240 I haven't hit me with it. Come on, I want 2:13:53.240 --> 2:13:53.640 to see this. 2:13:54.400 --> 2:13:57.480 These are waves of drones that can launch mace and 2:13:57.560 --> 2:14:00.720 pepper balls and have like they've got glass breakers so 2:14:00.800 --> 2:14:02.520 they can fly through windows. 2:14:02.760 --> 2:14:05.200 They would have fucking sent a drone swarm to stop 2:14:05.200 --> 2:14:07.560 a school shooter, yeah, as they wanted to do. 2:14:07.640 --> 2:14:07.800 Yeah. 2:14:07.880 --> 2:14:08.040 Yeah. 2:14:08.240 --> 2:14:09.960 The thing is with a drone swarm, it can't be 2:14:09.960 --> 2:14:12.480 a coward, which has historically been an issue for the cops. 2:14:12.560 --> 2:14:16.080 Right, it is true, this could work better. The problem 2:14:16.160 --> 2:14:18.800 is that in terms of actually stopping school shooters, this 2:14:18.880 --> 2:14:21.360 actually might be a lot more effective than calling the cops. 2:14:21.400 --> 2:14:23.520 I'm not going to say I don't think it's possible 2:14:23.520 --> 2:14:26.640 that this could work. Yeah, but everything about the press 2:14:26.680 --> 2:14:28.920 around this says tells me this company is also building 2:14:28.960 --> 2:14:31.480 itself as a way that, like school administrators can use 2:14:31.520 --> 2:14:34.760 drones to fuck up kids who mispay Sure, no, I 2:14:34.760 --> 2:14:37.160 can see that being it. That's that's kind of the 2:14:37.760 --> 2:14:39.240 what I'm expecting, right. 2:14:39.360 --> 2:14:41.680 Yeah, yeah, you're going to get maced by a drone. 2:14:41.960 --> 2:14:43.720 I want to read a quote from the article here. 2:14:44.280 --> 2:14:46.040 They could be flown from thousands of miles away and 2:14:46.040 --> 2:14:48.760 support two way communication through an embedded speakerphone, allowing the 2:14:48.760 --> 2:14:51.400 company's response team to engage verbally with a threat or 2:14:51.440 --> 2:14:54.480 communicate to teachers in school staff campus. Guardian Angels website 2:14:54.520 --> 2:14:56.600 stated this allows our team and our op center to 2:14:56.600 --> 2:14:59.320 communicate to law enforcement officers verbally with messages such as 2:14:59.320 --> 2:15:01.440 follow me and I'll take you to the suspect, or 2:15:01.520 --> 2:15:03.360 open the door and we'll go in and clear the room, and. 2:15:03.360 --> 2:15:04.440 I'll tell you what you see. 2:15:04.760 --> 2:15:07.200 And it's the whole thing about going after the suspect 2:15:07.240 --> 2:15:10.280 that I'm like, I can see this also just these 2:15:10.360 --> 2:15:13.440 drones being swarmed after some kids smoking pot or or 2:15:13.520 --> 2:15:16.840 somebody on earth like a suspicious looking backpack to some 2:15:16.880 --> 2:15:20.680 shitty AI like visual identification system that because you can't 2:15:20.680 --> 2:15:22.440 have a guy on the cameras at all times. 2:15:22.720 --> 2:15:23.160 I don't know. 2:15:23.400 --> 2:15:25.360 I don't think this is going to wind up saving 2:15:25.360 --> 2:15:28.160 as many lives as it is causing drone related assaults 2:15:28.160 --> 2:15:30.360 in public schools, but I guess we'll see. 2:15:30.720 --> 2:15:31.480 Fascinating. 2:15:31.960 --> 2:15:32.760 The video is great. 2:15:33.080 --> 2:15:35.400 Yeah, I want to see the video, can I You should? 2:15:35.440 --> 2:15:36.920 You should look up the video. 2:15:37.080 --> 2:15:40.440 Campus Guardian Angel. That's got a lie for Campus Guardian Angel. 2:15:40.440 --> 2:15:40.880 There you go. 2:15:40.960 --> 2:15:43.680 And when someone I hear that phrase, the first thing 2:15:43.680 --> 2:15:47.200 that comes to my mind is pedophile. Yeah that's what 2:15:47.240 --> 2:15:49.200 I That's what I'm thinking when I hear something. Okay, 2:15:49.280 --> 2:15:52.640 watch video the first active shooter suppression service. I'm sure 2:15:52.640 --> 2:15:55.560 that's true. All right, here we go, got a couple 2:15:55.600 --> 2:15:56.040 of cops. 2:15:57.240 --> 2:15:57.440 Yeah. 2:15:57.960 --> 2:16:00.520 Still it's still blurry. I still can't quite it's still well, 2:16:00.560 --> 2:16:02.040 it's having a long thing. Okay, here we are, here, 2:16:02.080 --> 2:16:02.640 we are okay. 2:16:02.480 --> 2:16:04.040 Yeah, This does make me think about what if the 2:16:04.120 --> 2:16:07.240 latency is bad between the camera and the drone operator 2:16:07.280 --> 2:16:09.320 flying an armed drone through a public school. 2:16:09.680 --> 2:16:12.400 Okay, we're here, we're watching a bunch of news clips. 2:16:13.080 --> 2:16:14.720 Board man is giving a talk. 2:16:15.040 --> 2:16:18.200 That's the Navy seal who runs the company. 2:16:18.640 --> 2:16:21.520 Okay, I see, okay, Wow, the drones are moving down 2:16:21.560 --> 2:16:28.160 the corridor. Fuck me, they're sitting some little boxes. There's 2:16:28.200 --> 2:16:30.800 a cop. Cop has a gun. Oh, there's someone in 2:16:30.880 --> 2:16:34.720 a balaclava. He's surrendering to the drones. He's down surrendering 2:16:34.879 --> 2:16:36.280 the Droughts' on the. 2:16:36.400 --> 2:16:40.560 Ed from front footage of like Russian soldiers surrendering the drones. 2:16:40.680 --> 2:16:45.320 They don't Yeah, these guys. Okay, there's this guy's playing 2:16:45.360 --> 2:16:47.320 a shooter. He has a BB gun. A couple of 2:16:47.360 --> 2:16:49.360 drones have got him cornered. He's not shooting at. 2:16:49.200 --> 2:16:50.640 Them, though, Cowards, cowards. 2:16:50.840 --> 2:16:53.800 Okay, he's someone from Seminole County Public Schools. So the 2:16:53.879 --> 2:16:56.440 drones live in a little box and it opens, and 2:16:56.520 --> 2:16:58.720 I like that they've done blue lighting. It's like a 2:16:58.760 --> 2:17:00.760 white box with blue lighting. Like it's very game. A 2:17:01.040 --> 2:17:03.520 little drone carrier, Yeah, a little little drone box. Here 2:17:03.600 --> 2:17:06.160 he comes he's breached through the window. Whoa, they're sucking 2:17:06.200 --> 2:17:08.360 up a dummy. That's the cliff look at it. Go 2:17:08.840 --> 2:17:11.039 they've missed. They've missed a few times. I noticed if 2:17:11.080 --> 2:17:14.160 you look closely. Yeah, way off, he's fucking way off. 2:17:14.520 --> 2:17:17.120 All right, I'm not I don't trust these drones about this. 2:17:17.520 --> 2:17:19.760 They're like, what if there was a child nearby? 2:17:20.320 --> 2:17:22.760 No, literally, that was my first thought was like, this 2:17:22.959 --> 2:17:27.080 just makes it easier for cops to shoot people accidentally. 2:17:26.959 --> 2:17:30.280 Or an AI drone to shoot someone by accident. They're 2:17:30.280 --> 2:17:32.720 going after the same dude again. He's running away. Oh, 2:17:32.800 --> 2:17:35.160 he's cornered, he's gone to ground. He's surrendering. 2:17:35.280 --> 2:17:39.720 Wait, it's probably guys that couldn't pass the cop exam. 2:17:40.360 --> 2:17:43.240 Yeah, the ones flying the drones. 2:17:43.320 --> 2:17:46.840 Yeah, in this POV, it looks like someone's manually firing 2:17:46.840 --> 2:17:49.120 because the drone has like a crosshairs in its video. 2:17:49.200 --> 2:17:51.200 Now I'm seeing the drones POV. They're coming out their 2:17:51.240 --> 2:17:54.400 little box. That's the Navy seal in through the window 2:17:54.840 --> 2:17:58.120 and he's surrendering as this shooter again, he's surrendering. They 2:17:58.160 --> 2:18:00.800 haven't really engaged with the hypothetical what if the shooter 2:18:00.920 --> 2:18:04.400 doesn't surrender to the groan all there's flying laps around him. 2:18:04.440 --> 2:18:05.920 Whoa, they took out the whole dummy. 2:18:06.080 --> 2:18:09.160 The whole dummy fell over. Okay, yeah, that's the clip 2:18:09.520 --> 2:18:12.840 wild stuff. Well, Nick, they can strobe them as well. 2:18:12.879 --> 2:18:15.520 I guess. Wow, there's a lot of cops in tactical gear. 2:18:15.720 --> 2:18:17.199 None of them have gone in. They've sent the drone 2:18:17.200 --> 2:18:17.720 in instead. 2:18:17.840 --> 2:18:18.920 Yeah, that seems realistic. 2:18:19.200 --> 2:18:22.440 Okay, Yeah, the guys like baffled by the number of 2:18:22.440 --> 2:18:25.959 targets and just live down surrenders. This is great. I 2:18:26.000 --> 2:18:28.959 can't see this being used to harass teenagers for doing 2:18:29.000 --> 2:18:30.440 things that every teenager does. 2:18:31.480 --> 2:18:33.200 So I wanted to talk a little bit about an 2:18:33.320 --> 2:18:36.960 article that just came out very recently in the New 2:18:37.040 --> 2:18:40.920 York Times about a metadata center in Louisiana. Now, obviously 2:18:41.040 --> 2:18:43.440 I've talked about data centers a few times in the 2:18:43.440 --> 2:18:46.160 fairly recent past. I did a dedicated article on the 2:18:46.200 --> 2:18:48.840 fight against all of the different kind of grassroots activism 2:18:48.879 --> 2:18:52.160 campaigns against new data center construction. One of the ones 2:18:52.200 --> 2:18:54.840 that is not really in any danger of being canceled 2:18:54.840 --> 2:18:58.520 through local protest is a massive Facebook data center in 2:18:58.600 --> 2:19:00.440 Richland Parish. It was originally had to be like a 2:19:00.440 --> 2:19:02.760 ten billion dollar data center and has now ballooned to 2:19:02.840 --> 2:19:06.760 like a fifty billion dollar project. Facebook was not originally 2:19:06.800 --> 2:19:09.440 planning to construct in Louisiana. They were taking bids back 2:19:09.480 --> 2:19:12.200 during the Biden administration. I don't think the state was 2:19:12.200 --> 2:19:15.440 really on the map, but officials, particularly in the very 2:19:15.480 --> 2:19:18.080 poor county of Richland Parish, had a problem, which is 2:19:18.080 --> 2:19:20.840 that they at least fourteen hundred, four hundred and forty 2:19:20.879 --> 2:19:24.840 acres to Toyota to build a factory, but Toyota had 2:19:24.879 --> 2:19:27.360 decided not to around two thousand and six. I think 2:19:27.360 --> 2:19:30.440 in part because the factory was proven to be unensurable 2:19:30.520 --> 2:19:33.680 because it's a floodplain. So basically they were like, we're 2:19:33.720 --> 2:19:35.560 not going to spend billions of dollars in a factory 2:19:35.600 --> 2:19:38.120 we literally can't ensure in a place that's famous for 2:19:38.200 --> 2:19:43.800 having infrastructure destroyed by hurricanes. Yeah, So Richland Paris had 2:19:43.840 --> 2:19:47.000 a problem. The area was already economically depressed, and Energy, 2:19:47.040 --> 2:19:50.560 which is a Louisiana state power company, also had an issue, 2:19:50.560 --> 2:19:52.840 which is that they were not making enough money. So 2:19:52.879 --> 2:19:56.320 their CEO, Philip May, decided he wanted to put Louisiana 2:19:56.360 --> 2:19:59.160 through as a dark horse contender for this massive fucking 2:19:59.360 --> 2:20:02.000 Meta dat center, and they wound up winning, and they 2:20:02.000 --> 2:20:04.640 basically wound up winning through promising to be corrupt on 2:20:04.680 --> 2:20:05.400 behalf of Meta. 2:20:05.480 --> 2:20:06.600 Right, there was a bill. 2:20:06.760 --> 2:20:09.640 Being pushed at the start of twenty twenty four because, 2:20:09.680 --> 2:20:11.840 like the thing they offered Meta a bunch of incentives, 2:20:11.840 --> 2:20:13.320 and the only thing they couldn't offer them was like 2:20:13.360 --> 2:20:15.760 a tax break on the different kind of materials you 2:20:15.800 --> 2:20:18.800 buy when you're building a data center, and everywhere else 2:20:18.840 --> 2:20:21.400 that Meta was considering had already offered those. So in 2:20:21.440 --> 2:20:25.640 April of twenty twenty four, Richard Nelson, the state Revenue Secretary, 2:20:25.680 --> 2:20:28.480 was kind of helping to shepherd through a bill that 2:20:28.600 --> 2:20:31.520 was a tax rebate for fiber optic equipment, and they 2:20:31.600 --> 2:20:34.240 just wound up changing it two months to a massive 2:20:34.240 --> 2:20:36.160 tax rebate for data center equipment. 2:20:36.360 --> 2:20:38.640 Amazing, super fucking corrupt. 2:20:38.640 --> 2:20:41.320 But also here's the thing, nobody in Richland Paris really 2:20:41.320 --> 2:20:44.480 cares because these people are incredibly fucking poor and Facebook 2:20:44.560 --> 2:20:47.800 is bribing basically the entire county. There's some sort of 2:20:47.840 --> 2:20:50.760 local law they have that if there's like an overfunding 2:20:50.840 --> 2:20:53.840 in county tax revenue, then like teachers get a bunch 2:20:53.840 --> 2:20:55.720 of money. And so because of how much money Facebook 2:20:55.760 --> 2:20:58.320 is pumped in. A bunch of teachers in the parish 2:20:58.360 --> 2:21:01.039 got like a fifty thousand dollars bone, And that's like 2:21:01.080 --> 2:21:04.279 the lowest level of what is effectively like legal bribery 2:21:04.320 --> 2:21:06.920 going on at every level of life in the parish. 2:21:07.040 --> 2:21:09.520 So there's no chance really that anyone is going to 2:21:09.560 --> 2:21:11.959 protest or stop the construction of this. People are enthusiastic 2:21:12.000 --> 2:21:14.240 because Meta has turned a fire hose of money on 2:21:14.240 --> 2:21:16.760 one of the poorest counties in the United States. The 2:21:16.800 --> 2:21:19.720 problem is that, as I've said, the project is really 2:21:19.879 --> 2:21:24.280 obviously fucking doomed. Again, it's uninsurable because it's in a 2:21:24.320 --> 2:21:28.240 fucking floodplaine, And the actual text of the arrangement that 2:21:28.520 --> 2:21:31.560 Meta inc basically gives them the ability to bounce and 2:21:31.680 --> 2:21:34.760 leave the project within like four or five years, leaving 2:21:35.000 --> 2:21:38.400 Energy and a bunch of other Louisiana interests on the 2:21:38.440 --> 2:21:41.720 hook for this entire massive project if say, a hurricane 2:21:41.720 --> 2:21:44.680 comes through and renders the entire side inoperable. So it 2:21:44.720 --> 2:21:46.480 seems like this kind of thing that's going to cause 2:21:46.480 --> 2:21:49.360 a massive problem and like destroy the local economy at 2:21:49.400 --> 2:21:49.800 some point. 2:21:50.240 --> 2:21:51.359 But there's so much. 2:21:51.240 --> 2:21:54.560 Money being slalommed out to people right now that I 2:21:54.560 --> 2:21:56.560 don't think anything's going to stop that. So I guess 2:21:56.600 --> 2:22:00.240 we hope that the obvious thing doesn't happen, but I 2:22:00.320 --> 2:22:02.000 kind of think it's going to anyway. 2:22:02.120 --> 2:22:06.320 Louisiana Nice. Let's talk about the public charge rule. So 2:22:06.920 --> 2:22:09.840 the Drive administration has announced that it will do away 2:22:09.959 --> 2:22:15.800 on September eighteenth with the DHS rule on public charge determination. 2:22:16.120 --> 2:22:18.440 That rule came into effect in twenty twenty two, so 2:22:18.480 --> 2:22:22.720 in the Biden administration, they're not making a new rule 2:22:23.080 --> 2:22:26.920 at this time. They're taking away the old rule. So 2:22:26.959 --> 2:22:28.520 what we will have to go off now is a 2:22:28.560 --> 2:22:31.840 text in the Immigration Nationality Act, and presumably they will 2:22:31.840 --> 2:22:35.600 issue some guidance soon. Right, whatever guidance, the issue is 2:22:35.680 --> 2:22:38.720 likely to be more restrictive than what we had in 2:22:38.760 --> 2:22:41.840 twenty twenty two rule. Right, they did publish a public 2:22:41.920 --> 2:22:43.920 notice about this last year, so we knew that this 2:22:44.120 --> 2:22:46.800 was coming, that they had planned to rescind this rule. 2:22:47.320 --> 2:22:49.240 And we should talk about what public charge is. We 2:22:49.280 --> 2:22:51.960 can go back to the nineteen ninety nine guidance and 2:22:52.000 --> 2:22:55.000 that's what was clarified in twenty twenty two. For a definition. 2:22:55.560 --> 2:22:58.000 That guidance says that someone who is likely to be 2:22:58.120 --> 2:23:01.720 quote primarily dependent on the government for subsistence, as demonstrated 2:23:01.760 --> 2:23:05.320 by either the receipt of public cash assistance for income 2:23:05.360 --> 2:23:09.439 maintenance or institutionalization for long term care at government expense, 2:23:10.280 --> 2:23:13.680 can be inadmissible to the United States or ineligible for 2:23:13.760 --> 2:23:19.240 permanent residency. This doesn't apply to some permanent residency applications 2:23:19.360 --> 2:23:25.039 like sijas, especially immigrant juvenile green card applications, tou visas, assylies, 2:23:25.080 --> 2:23:28.400 or refugees. Some other categories, including those in the Finance 2:23:28.440 --> 2:23:32.560 Against Women Act. Public charge has generally been understood to 2:23:32.760 --> 2:23:38.040 mean cash benefits, right, so SSSI or TANF would be 2:23:38.080 --> 2:23:41.000 the ones that like be generally understood to be that 2:23:41.000 --> 2:23:44.200 if somebody received those DHS, I guess it would be 2:23:44.280 --> 2:23:48.040 USCIS could find that they would be inadmissible. Somebody who 2:23:48.120 --> 2:23:52.360 is found inadmissible for this reason previously could post a 2:23:52.440 --> 2:23:55.400 bond and still be admitted. Right Just to the bond 2:23:55.440 --> 2:23:58.039 is basically saying I'm not going to be like a 2:23:58.080 --> 2:24:02.480 burden on the United States State. Right. Yeah, we're not 2:24:02.720 --> 2:24:05.560 exactly clear what they're going to do next, but we 2:24:05.600 --> 2:24:08.680 can look at the DHS pressor for some clues, which 2:24:08.680 --> 2:24:12.560 says quote aligning immigration with law and congressional intent that 2:24:12.600 --> 2:24:15.480 aliens of the United States be self reliant and not 2:24:15.600 --> 2:24:22.200 dependent on taxpayer funded government benefits. This could be really bad, right. 2:24:22.600 --> 2:24:25.480 There are a lot of different benefits people take advantage of. 2:24:25.560 --> 2:24:30.600 To include free school meals, to include things like a snap, 2:24:30.720 --> 2:24:35.680 to include wick, right, to include rent controlled housing, even 2:24:35.879 --> 2:24:38.440 right like they could draw this. I think what they're 2:24:38.480 --> 2:24:41.680 probably going to move towards is a sort of looking 2:24:41.760 --> 2:24:46.320 at the whole case thing, as opposed to a looking 2:24:46.480 --> 2:24:49.120 for specific things in the past. Another thing that we 2:24:49.160 --> 2:24:52.160 should understand is that this is forward facing, right. It's 2:24:52.200 --> 2:24:54.760 not just have they use this, it's are they likely to? 2:24:55.840 --> 2:24:58.920 An extremely broad interpretation of this could be very bad 2:24:59.480 --> 2:25:02.840 for people definitely looking to adjust their status. Right. So 2:25:02.920 --> 2:25:05.160 this is something we will keep an eye on. It's 2:25:05.200 --> 2:25:07.360 not ending yet. I just want to reinforce that it's 2:25:07.360 --> 2:25:10.640 on September the eighteenth. For people who are in these proceedings. 2:25:10.640 --> 2:25:12.920 This is something you should discuss with your immigration lawyer 2:25:13.240 --> 2:25:16.840 if that it pertains to you. I will include links 2:25:16.879 --> 2:25:19.959 to all the government press releases and the Federal Register 2:25:20.000 --> 2:25:21.720 pieces about this. If you want to read it yourself. 2:25:22.600 --> 2:25:23.480 Should take a break. 2:25:23.959 --> 2:25:37.680 Yeah, I think so, and we're back. 2:25:38.920 --> 2:25:42.240 I want to talk about Texas, and normally that's not 2:25:42.320 --> 2:25:43.959 a hopeful thing when I say I'm going to talk 2:25:43.959 --> 2:25:46.400 about Texas. In fact, about eighty percent of the time 2:25:46.480 --> 2:25:49.160 when I come on to talk about Texas, it's because 2:25:49.240 --> 2:25:52.520 either someone in Texas committed some sort of horrible violent crime, 2:25:53.320 --> 2:25:56.440 or everyone's getting excited about an election and I need 2:25:56.440 --> 2:25:58.959 to tell them not to because it's Texas. This time, 2:25:58.959 --> 2:26:00.720 I'm here to tell you there's an election in Texas. 2:26:00.760 --> 2:26:03.680 You might want to get excited about the election between 2:26:03.800 --> 2:26:07.560 kin Paxton and taller Ico. Fuck what's his first name? 2:26:07.720 --> 2:26:10.400 I want to say, Tommy or James Tallerica. The election 2:26:10.480 --> 2:26:14.760 between Kim Paxton. I can't thinking about that fucking grifter. 2:26:15.480 --> 2:26:18.520 I can't stop every time I hear his name. But no, 2:26:18.680 --> 2:26:21.879 James Tallerico is not a grifter. James Tallerico might be 2:26:22.320 --> 2:26:25.000 a US Senator in the very near future because Kin 2:26:25.040 --> 2:26:27.279 Paxton is not doing too well. And if you aren't Texan, 2:26:27.320 --> 2:26:30.760 the name Kim Paxton may not immediately conjure, dread and discussed, 2:26:31.160 --> 2:26:33.560 but it should. I would be hard pressed to name 2:26:33.600 --> 2:26:36.080 a more scandal ridden, corrupt, and evil elected leader in 2:26:36.120 --> 2:26:38.920 the United States, and that includes Donald Trump. Before we 2:26:38.959 --> 2:26:41.520 get into Paxton's latest race for a US Senate seat, 2:26:41.520 --> 2:26:43.279 I want to tell you a little bit more about 2:26:43.480 --> 2:26:46.920 Ken Friend of the Pod, Ken Paxton K Pax, as 2:26:46.959 --> 2:26:49.600 we call him. I don't think anyone actually saw the 2:26:49.640 --> 2:26:51.680 movie k Pax, so that's not really a joke that's 2:26:51.680 --> 2:26:52.240 going to land. 2:26:52.280 --> 2:26:54.520 But I didn't know that was a movie. It was 2:26:54.520 --> 2:26:55.240 a movie, James. 2:26:55.520 --> 2:26:57.280 In two thousand and eight, when Paxton was a new 2:26:57.320 --> 2:27:00.000 Texas house member for McKinney, where my mom used to teach, 2:27:00.360 --> 2:27:03.000 the AP reported that he and another state representative had 2:27:03.040 --> 2:27:06.280 been accused by ethics watchdog Fred Lewis of greasing the 2:27:06.360 --> 2:27:09.520 skids to settle a contract with WatchGuard, a company that 2:27:09.600 --> 2:27:12.280 made in car video systems that record video directly to 2:27:12.360 --> 2:27:15.440 DVD for like The Cops and Stuff. Paxton and Byron 2:27:15.480 --> 2:27:17.960 Cook to state representatives were both found to have disclosed 2:27:18.000 --> 2:27:21.440 ownership in WatchGuard, but in Paxton's case, he didn't disclose 2:27:21.440 --> 2:27:23.760 his ownership until well after his two thousand and eight 2:27:23.840 --> 2:27:27.400 personal financial statement was filed. Shortly after the deal was made. 2:27:27.440 --> 2:27:30.240 WatchGuard net earnings increased year over year by two hundred 2:27:30.280 --> 2:27:32.800 and fifty percent, and Paxton and Cook sold their shares 2:27:32.840 --> 2:27:35.400 of the company for an undisclosed amount, but a lot 2:27:35.440 --> 2:27:38.400 of money. Paxton denies any knowledge of the company's state 2:27:38.440 --> 2:27:40.920 contracts and claimed he did nothing shady. However, per the 2:27:40.920 --> 2:27:43.959 barbed Wire Quote, Paxton claimed he had no knowledge of 2:27:43.959 --> 2:27:45.840 the company state contracts at the time, which he would 2:27:45.840 --> 2:27:48.080 have been required to disclose with the Texas Ethics Commission 2:27:48.160 --> 2:27:51.560 under state law. However, Associated Press reporter that Watchguard's website 2:27:51.560 --> 2:27:54.359 boasted that the company was held by an influential shareholder 2:27:54.400 --> 2:27:58.320 group that includes three state representatives. Perfect you hate it 2:27:58.360 --> 2:28:01.160 when you're dry snitched on by the company that bribed 2:28:01.240 --> 2:28:05.160 you now. According to The Wall Street Journal, after coming 2:28:05.240 --> 2:28:08.880 under Screwtiny, Paxton shifted his investments, including those in WatchGuard, 2:28:08.879 --> 2:28:11.720 into a blind trust. A blind trust is an account 2:28:11.720 --> 2:28:14.360 managed by a third party trustee without the beneficiary's knowledge 2:28:14.400 --> 2:28:18.000 to prevent a conflict of interest. However, the Journal uncovered 2:28:18.000 --> 2:28:20.400 text betweens Paxton and the trustee, who was a friend 2:28:20.440 --> 2:28:23.160 of his, concerning stock trades in twenty twenty, a violation 2:28:23.200 --> 2:28:25.840 of the blind nature of the agreement. Passion received two 2:28:25.879 --> 2:28:28.359 point two million dollars from his investment. 2:28:28.040 --> 2:28:29.600 So that's more like a sea through trust. 2:28:29.800 --> 2:28:30.000 Yeah. 2:28:30.320 --> 2:28:33.320 Yeah, it's more of a see through trust, not so blind. 2:28:33.800 --> 2:28:36.720 It's more just here, you're committing a series of crimes. 2:28:36.879 --> 2:28:39.360 So he's going to get charged with securities fraud for this, 2:28:39.920 --> 2:28:42.000 and that case is going to wind on for a while, 2:28:42.440 --> 2:28:44.120 but not long, you know, kind of actually in the 2:28:44.160 --> 2:28:47.160 middle of this whole process of corruption. In twenty thirteen, 2:28:47.640 --> 2:28:51.480 when he's a state senator, he's entering the courthouse, like 2:28:51.520 --> 2:28:54.000 the state courthouse. Yeah, and a lawyer who'd just been 2:28:54.040 --> 2:28:56.080 ahead of him in lying at like the metal detector 2:28:56.160 --> 2:28:59.039 leaves behind a thousand dollars mont Blanc pen in the 2:28:59.040 --> 2:29:02.480 metal detector trade, and Kim Paxton steals it, and he's 2:29:02.520 --> 2:29:07.560 a video stealing it, Like the Dallas Morning News gets 2:29:07.640 --> 2:29:13.360 access to the video and publishes it. It's really funny. 2:29:14.040 --> 2:29:15.439 What a series of events. 2:29:15.879 --> 2:29:16.320 Yeah. 2:29:16.360 --> 2:29:19.720 In like twenty fourteen, Ken runs for and wins Attorney 2:29:19.800 --> 2:29:22.440 General of the State of Texas, and his opponent in 2:29:22.520 --> 2:29:26.200 the campaign, Justin Nelson, runs video ads using the footage. 2:29:26.720 --> 2:29:29.000 It is really funny to have top Cough be like, 2:29:29.160 --> 2:29:33.080 funny the most corrupt criminal in Texas politics, Yeah. 2:29:33.000 --> 2:29:34.800 Most and look really dedicated to it. 2:29:34.840 --> 2:29:37.280 You know, the big busiest criminal too. 2:29:37.920 --> 2:29:40.320 Just seeing an opportunity and taking it without a second 2:29:40.360 --> 2:29:42.039 thought is really beautiful. 2:29:42.160 --> 2:29:42.879 Yeah. 2:29:43.000 --> 2:29:46.840 Now, despite this, Paxton was still narrowly elected, thanks in 2:29:46.879 --> 2:29:49.000 part to spending twice as much as his opponent on 2:29:49.080 --> 2:29:49.800 the campaign. 2:29:50.000 --> 2:29:50.360 Yeah. 2:29:50.400 --> 2:29:53.320 In twenty twenty two, Paxton faced a primary challenge from 2:29:53.400 --> 2:29:56.360 George P. Bush, one of the C list Bushes, a 2:29:56.360 --> 2:29:58.640 nephew of the most recent former President Bush. 2:29:58.760 --> 2:29:59.120 Huh. 2:29:59.160 --> 2:30:02.279 This would prove to be one of Paxson's easier victories, 2:30:02.480 --> 2:30:04.320 even though he had been charged with and was still 2:30:04.360 --> 2:30:07.440 under investigation for security He's fraud, as well as at 2:30:07.480 --> 2:30:11.080 this point a separate federal investigation for alleged corruption in 2:30:11.080 --> 2:30:13.920 favor of an Austin real estate developer. I'm going to 2:30:14.000 --> 2:30:16.560 quote now from an AP article by Thomas Beaumont. 2:30:16.720 --> 2:30:17.160 Quote. 2:30:17.320 --> 2:30:20.320 Paxton responded by portraying himself as a Trump era Republican 2:30:20.400 --> 2:30:23.000 and Bush is the heir to a privileged political legacy. 2:30:23.080 --> 2:30:23.320 Yeah. 2:30:23.360 --> 2:30:26.440 Pro Paxson organizations spent more than twenty million dollars, about 2:30:26.440 --> 2:30:28.480 twice as much as Bush and his allies. The race 2:30:28.520 --> 2:30:30.640 went into a runoff, in which Paxson defeated Bush by 2:30:30.680 --> 2:30:34.840 thirty four percentage points, So just a pansing yeah, on 2:30:34.959 --> 2:30:37.920 behalf of George P. Bush then one of the worst 2:30:37.959 --> 2:30:41.160 ass kickings in Texas state political history. It's beautiful stuff. 2:30:41.520 --> 2:30:43.440 Yeah, I mean this is a very very clear sort 2:30:43.440 --> 2:30:46.400 of like Neo con versus the New like mega Republican 2:30:46.440 --> 2:30:49.760 party matchup in which the Neo cons have just no 2:30:49.760 --> 2:30:50.680 no ground to stand on. 2:30:50.879 --> 2:30:53.720 Well, and it's it's also just like purely on like 2:30:53.760 --> 2:30:56.320 the shallowest basis of like what sounds good to a dummy. 2:30:56.560 --> 2:30:59.920 George W. Bush W is a nickname that's trustworthy. 2:31:00.200 --> 2:31:02.759 George P. Bush, P Bush. 2:31:03.320 --> 2:31:07.200 Bush anywhere just a bad idea. 2:31:07.520 --> 2:31:10.280 I do think twenty years of war in the Middle 2:31:10.320 --> 2:31:13.440 East have maybe maybe like dropped the value of George X. 2:31:13.600 --> 2:31:17.360 Bush stalkers George Bush anywhere in the. 2:31:18.240 --> 2:31:20.320 Thirty If we're doing George Bushes, I guess. 2:31:20.280 --> 2:31:22.519 Guys, we're talking about Texas. 2:31:23.120 --> 2:31:26.359 I mean even there, Yeah, even in Texas. 2:31:26.520 --> 2:31:29.000 A whole lot of people from Texas died in uh 2:31:29.600 --> 2:31:31.640 was we didn't need to have actually. 2:31:31.560 --> 2:31:33.879 I mean, even when Texans were voting for him, people 2:31:33.879 --> 2:31:35.680 had a tendency to say the man was all hat, 2:31:35.760 --> 2:31:39.280 no cattle. So I'm not super surprised about this, But anyway, 2:31:39.400 --> 2:31:43.040 Paxton beats Bush handily in the primary, and then he 2:31:43.120 --> 2:31:46.400 runs against Democrat Rochelle Garza in the general, and Garza 2:31:46.520 --> 2:31:49.720 entered the campaign with a three hundred page opposition research 2:31:49.800 --> 2:31:53.199 bio on Paxton, but also faced a really difficult quandary, 2:31:53.200 --> 2:31:56.039 which is, like, what can you say about Ken that 2:31:56.200 --> 2:31:59.880 voters haven't already heard and evidently decided they don't care about? 2:32:00.400 --> 2:32:00.600 Right? 2:32:01.000 --> 2:32:01.200 Yeah? 2:32:01.280 --> 2:32:03.080 Yeah, This is like the same thing with Trump. Right, 2:32:03.120 --> 2:32:06.480 It's is like, yeah, how do you attest Yes, all 2:32:06.520 --> 2:32:08.440 of this stuff that's fucked up that we all know about? 2:32:08.640 --> 2:32:11.560 Yeah that like is it worth just retreading all this 2:32:11.680 --> 2:32:12.520 all the same stuff? 2:32:12.600 --> 2:32:12.680 No? 2:32:12.879 --> 2:32:14.320 And it just wasn't right. 2:32:14.400 --> 2:32:18.039 She loses too, not by as badly as George B. Bush, obviously, 2:32:18.440 --> 2:32:21.279 and Paxton continues to cling to office and scandal. 2:32:21.560 --> 2:32:21.840 Now. 2:32:22.360 --> 2:32:25.400 In the years after his victory, his wife divorced him, 2:32:25.480 --> 2:32:28.959 citing the Bible. He was impeached by the state House, 2:32:29.160 --> 2:32:31.879 but then acquitted by the Senate. His fraud case ended 2:32:31.840 --> 2:32:33.879 in twenty twenty four with a judgment that he paid 2:32:33.879 --> 2:32:36.880 three hundred thousand dollars in restitution, but through it all 2:32:36.920 --> 2:32:39.320 he maintained enough Republican support to squeak by. 2:32:39.680 --> 2:32:42.240 I mean because he's been very powerful as the attorney 2:32:42.280 --> 2:32:44.720 general of that state. It has done a lot to 2:32:44.800 --> 2:32:47.120 help the Republicans in that state. And like a lot 2:32:47.160 --> 2:32:49.400 of yes, really ugly stuff has been done at the 2:32:49.400 --> 2:32:51.320 behest of and the help of Paxton. 2:32:51.560 --> 2:32:54.760 Yeah, he's wielded his power, and I'm leaving a lot 2:32:54.760 --> 2:32:57.280 of that out. I don't mean this as a comprehensive 2:32:57.320 --> 2:32:59.039 look at his past. We're kind of doing the greatest hits. 2:32:59.040 --> 2:33:00.600 I'm gonna have to do a bt be on the fucker. 2:33:00.640 --> 2:33:02.960 Oh yeah, k Bax deserves it. 2:33:03.360 --> 2:33:03.440 So. 2:33:03.600 --> 2:33:06.880 In that ap article, Thomas Beaumont interviewed two Paxton supporters, 2:33:06.959 --> 2:33:09.960 David and Nancy Lapp, who are retired conservatives from Woolworf 2:33:10.080 --> 2:33:13.720 Texas or Wolff Texas, and quote from that article, they 2:33:13.760 --> 2:33:15.840 described him as a conservative warrior who has been a 2:33:15.879 --> 2:33:18.800 victim of persecution. He's had a share of scandals, and 2:33:18.840 --> 2:33:22.440 almost all of them have, so it's not necessarily disqualifying anymore, 2:33:22.440 --> 2:33:25.160 said David lap seventy six. He's a flawed person, no 2:33:25.240 --> 2:33:27.760 doubt about it, but he fights for traditional American values. 2:33:27.920 --> 2:33:28.720 Oh man. 2:33:28.920 --> 2:33:31.440 He added that nowadays, as long as you're not in jail, 2:33:31.480 --> 2:33:34.560 that'll elect you, which is very true. 2:33:34.600 --> 2:33:36.240 Yeah, yeah, that's not a wrong statement. 2:33:36.600 --> 2:33:42.640 But also you'll elect him David. Yeah, yay, you're making 2:33:42.680 --> 2:33:46.039 a choice now. There is much more to the tale 2:33:46.080 --> 2:33:48.560 of Ken Baxton's scum and villainy, and this isn't an 2:33:48.600 --> 2:33:50.600 episode of BTV, so I'm gonna save us some time 2:33:50.640 --> 2:33:53.520 and just discuss arguably his worst and most famous call 2:33:53.560 --> 2:33:56.760 as at Dirney. General Kin was elected after promising to 2:33:56.800 --> 2:33:59.600 be tough on crime and attacking his predecessors and opponents 2:33:59.600 --> 2:34:02.440 for being week on crime. And then in twenty twenty five, 2:34:02.520 --> 2:34:05.039 a Waco attorney named Adam Hoffman went on trial for 2:34:05.120 --> 2:34:08.760 sexually abusing his son's best friend during multiple sleepovers from 2:34:08.760 --> 2:34:11.400 the age of six or seven up to age ten. Jesus, 2:34:11.400 --> 2:34:14.000 the victim, initially told a forensic interviewer he believed Hoffman 2:34:14.040 --> 2:34:18.080 had ejaculated over thirteen hundred times in his presence. Hawfen 2:34:18.120 --> 2:34:21.320 denied the allegant although they did like a siemens, they 2:34:21.320 --> 2:34:23.959 looked for semen and didn't find any, so like, I 2:34:24.000 --> 2:34:26.880 don't know, but also get a clean stuff who knows. 2:34:27.280 --> 2:34:29.880 Hoffman denied the allegations and called the boy a liar. 2:34:30.120 --> 2:34:32.560 The jury wound up deadlocks, the judge ordered them to 2:34:32.640 --> 2:34:35.560 keep deliberating, and long story shirt, it becomes a mistrial 2:34:35.920 --> 2:34:38.520 because the victim did not want to testify a second time. 2:34:38.640 --> 2:34:41.920 Paxton's prosecutor struck a plea deal with Hoffman, So Hoffman, 2:34:42.000 --> 2:34:45.520 please guilty. But the plea deal includes no jail time 2:34:45.680 --> 2:34:49.039 or registry for as a sex offender for Hoffman. So 2:34:49.120 --> 2:34:52.920 that's pretty fucked up. And obviously it's Paxton's people doing this, 2:34:53.040 --> 2:34:56.880 but Paxton's the attorney general, so this really grosses a 2:34:56.920 --> 2:34:58.680 lot of people out in the case becomes a major 2:34:58.720 --> 2:35:02.199 avenue attack when he goes a primary challenge by John 2:35:02.280 --> 2:35:04.520 Cornan earlier this year in the Senate race. 2:35:04.600 --> 2:35:07.800 Right yeah, he challenges corn Indi, incumbent for Senate. 2:35:07.959 --> 2:35:10.480 The attention around this caused critics of Paxton to look 2:35:10.520 --> 2:35:13.760 into other cases. Per the textas Tribune quote. For instance, 2:35:13.800 --> 2:35:16.000 attack adds from Corn's allies highlight the case of a 2:35:16.000 --> 2:35:18.959 man originally charged with child sex trafficking who received a 2:35:18.959 --> 2:35:22.160 deal for a probation sentence, and Judge Royce Sparkman brought 2:35:22.200 --> 2:35:24.680 up another case in open court last month, noting Paxton 2:35:24.720 --> 2:35:27.000 had also taken over a murder for higher case that 2:35:27.080 --> 2:35:30.000 he oversaw, which resulted in a misdemeanor plea and a 2:35:30.040 --> 2:35:33.920 four day jail sentence. And of course Paxton still beat Cornan, 2:35:34.240 --> 2:35:37.920 So you could be forgiven for being like, what could 2:35:37.959 --> 2:35:41.920 take fucking this guy out right? Yes, points what could matter? 2:35:42.400 --> 2:35:44.800 And I'll be honest, I was really hesitant to have 2:35:44.840 --> 2:35:47.960 any hope about this race until extremely recently, But within 2:35:48.000 --> 2:35:50.000 the last few days a bunch of new polling has 2:35:50.040 --> 2:35:54.280 come out that makes this look not just competitive but winnable. 2:35:54.760 --> 2:35:57.560 The most striking example of evidence, you know, in favor 2:35:57.600 --> 2:36:00.119 of that would be a recent Texas Public Opinion Research 2:36:00.160 --> 2:36:03.840 poll that showed Tallerrico leading Packston forty five percent to 2:36:03.920 --> 2:36:07.280 forty after multiple other polls had consistently shown a nail 2:36:07.320 --> 2:36:10.480 bider of a race. Now, TPOR is officially a non 2:36:10.480 --> 2:36:13.640 partisan research group, but it is run by a Democratic strategist, 2:36:13.680 --> 2:36:16.680 so there's reason to suspect some favoritism here. The Texas 2:36:16.680 --> 2:36:18.720 Tribune and a separate article had this to say about 2:36:18.720 --> 2:36:21.840 the survey quote. The group's surveyed one thousand, forty eight 2:36:22.040 --> 2:36:24.560 likely voters between July fifteenth and July seventeenth, and as 2:36:24.560 --> 2:36:26.360 a margin of era of plus or minus three point 2:36:26.400 --> 2:36:29.480 four percentage points. Of those poll respondents, fifty three percent 2:36:29.560 --> 2:36:31.800 voted for Donald Trump and forty two percent voted for 2:36:31.879 --> 2:36:34.959 Kamala Harrison twenty twenty four, making the sample only slightly 2:36:35.000 --> 2:36:37.440 bluer than the twenty twenty four electorate, which favored Trump 2:36:37.480 --> 2:36:40.520 by a fourteen point margin. In Texas, Trump carried Texas 2:36:40.520 --> 2:36:42.720 by five point six percentage points in twenty twenty, two 2:36:42.800 --> 2:36:45.439 years after the last midterm held there during his presidency, 2:36:46.000 --> 2:36:48.560 and a recent New York Times SIENA poll from June 2:36:48.680 --> 2:36:51.160 found an overall tie in the race forty seven to 2:36:51.200 --> 2:36:55.000 forty seven percent, with Tallarico winning about five percent of Republicans. 2:36:55.240 --> 2:36:56.760 The most significant. 2:36:56.200 --> 2:36:58.200 Data from this recent batch of polling that has to 2:36:58.240 --> 2:37:00.840 be hopeful, though, is that Tallerrika seems to be doing 2:37:01.120 --> 2:37:04.760 really well among non college educated voters, which is traditionally 2:37:04.800 --> 2:37:08.280 like the strongest group for Paxton. That's the group that 2:37:08.320 --> 2:37:11.200 has carried him over the line consistently, and from that 2:37:11.200 --> 2:37:14.160 same article quote, perhaps the biggest outlier was Taller Rico's 2:37:14.200 --> 2:37:17.320 lead among non college educated voters, who favored the Democrat 2:37:17.360 --> 2:37:21.000 by nine percentage points forty five percent to thirty six percent. 2:37:21.200 --> 2:37:23.240 He led by one percentage point among those with at 2:37:23.320 --> 2:37:26.920 least a bachelor's degree. I don't want to suggest that 2:37:27.080 --> 2:37:29.920 the other races in Texas are going to go this well, right, 2:37:30.040 --> 2:37:34.400 Ted Cruz is currently about eighteen points ahead of his opponent, 2:37:34.720 --> 2:37:38.000 Colin Alred right now among non college educated Texans in 2:37:38.040 --> 2:37:41.240 twenty twenty four. And yeah, like so, I don't have 2:37:41.320 --> 2:37:43.120 a lot of faith that this is going to extend 2:37:43.280 --> 2:37:47.320 past tall Rico versus Paxton, But there is evidence that, 2:37:47.360 --> 2:37:50.720 like Paxton's longevity with the specific group that's carried him 2:37:50.720 --> 2:37:52.720 past the line is at its end, Like maybe there's 2:37:52.800 --> 2:37:55.160 just too much scandal for him to stand up next 2:37:55.200 --> 2:37:57.879 to someone who seems as like relatively squeaky and nice 2:37:57.879 --> 2:38:01.560 as tall Rico. Now, there's other things to credit Tallarico's 2:38:01.560 --> 2:38:04.120 successful One of them is that he's doing a lot 2:38:04.200 --> 2:38:06.760 better than Paxton in terms of like money. Right now, 2:38:06.800 --> 2:38:09.360 as of their most recent disclosures, Tallarrico's campaign is about 2:38:09.360 --> 2:38:12.120 twenty one million dollars on hand. Paxton has less than eight. 2:38:12.520 --> 2:38:14.680 And if you remember every other election I've got, or 2:38:14.680 --> 2:38:16.600 every other campaign of packins I've run through here, he 2:38:16.680 --> 2:38:19.039 usually had like a two to one advantage in funding 2:38:19.080 --> 2:38:21.400 over his opponents. So the fact that that's kind of 2:38:21.400 --> 2:38:23.680 falling apart for him too, suggests this might be a 2:38:23.720 --> 2:38:27.040 really winnable race. Now there are some reasons to doubt 2:38:27.040 --> 2:38:29.600 that too. Most polls I've seen show a number of 2:38:29.720 --> 2:38:32.560 undecided Republicans large enough to close the gap or a 2:38:32.600 --> 2:38:35.640 tie between the two candidates led by Paxton. And if 2:38:35.640 --> 2:38:39.160 that group all breaks for Kin, and historically they're likely to, 2:38:39.560 --> 2:38:42.360 things could be really close or wind up in favor 2:38:42.400 --> 2:38:43.000 of Paxton. 2:38:43.120 --> 2:38:43.400 Right. 2:38:43.879 --> 2:38:46.040 One of the polls found about fourteen percent of voters 2:38:46.040 --> 2:38:48.680 of all political stripes are unsure of their picks, and 2:38:48.760 --> 2:38:51.400 among undecided voters, it looks like Paxton has the most 2:38:51.440 --> 2:38:53.800 room to grow. About nineteen percent of that block that 2:38:53.840 --> 2:38:56.160 they leaned towards the Republican compared to ten percent to 2:38:56.240 --> 2:38:58.440 lean towards taller Rico. But most of them were just 2:38:58.520 --> 2:39:00.520 totally on the fence, or at least that's what they said. 2:39:00.560 --> 2:39:02.440 So a lot is going to depend on how those 2:39:02.440 --> 2:39:04.840 people break. I'm not saying this is definitely going to 2:39:04.840 --> 2:39:07.160 go tell Rico's way, but if you're talking about, like 2:39:07.320 --> 2:39:10.080 what is a race where maybe the Democratic Party might 2:39:10.120 --> 2:39:13.680 want to actually invest money in. I'd say here, this 2:39:13.920 --> 2:39:17.000 thing seems winnable, and I don't say that about Texas 2:39:17.080 --> 2:39:17.720 races often. 2:39:18.400 --> 2:39:21.480 It is a very particular matchup. Yeah, Paxston has a 2:39:21.520 --> 2:39:24.680 lot of unique vulnerabilities. Teller Coosa's doing very well in 2:39:25.120 --> 2:39:28.320 pulls for Latino voters, up like forty five points ahead 2:39:28.320 --> 2:39:32.640 of Paxton, and that will be very crucial, especially considering ice, 2:39:32.760 --> 2:39:35.320 like that's going to be a big factor in this race. Yeah, 2:39:35.480 --> 2:39:37.920 there was an ice killing in Texas just a few 2:39:37.959 --> 2:39:41.120 weeks ago. Certainly a lot of funding could come to 2:39:41.240 --> 2:39:46.600 Paxton towards the end of the race. Sure, the campaign 2:39:46.760 --> 2:39:50.920 finest ratio could change dramatically over time. But I do 2:39:51.040 --> 2:39:54.160 wonder if the sort of strategy from the GOP right now, 2:39:54.200 --> 2:39:57.520 which is like paint paint Tallerico very early on, is 2:39:57.520 --> 2:40:01.240 it's like you know, woe gender ideology made will kind 2:40:01.280 --> 2:40:03.640 of run a little bit hollow now that Trump is 2:40:03.680 --> 2:40:07.920 in charge and Republicans control all branches of government and 2:40:08.080 --> 2:40:10.640 the sort of like economic issues that can not be 2:40:11.440 --> 2:40:14.600 blamed on like woke liberals sending you know, money to 2:40:15.240 --> 2:40:18.160 sex changes in prison. It's going to be an interesting race, 2:40:18.640 --> 2:40:24.280 very close, another close race next Tuesday. The Michigan Senate 2:40:24.360 --> 2:40:29.120 primary with Ice Israel in My Dreams Hailey Stevens versus 2:40:29.360 --> 2:40:37.400 Doctor Abdual Health site. They had their last debate on Monday, Elsie. 2:40:37.440 --> 2:40:41.360 It continually hit Stevens for her corporate funding sixty million 2:40:41.360 --> 2:40:45.000 dollars outside spending forty six million dollars of a PAC funding, 2:40:45.440 --> 2:40:49.000 and the moderator was really going after Stevens for this too, 2:40:49.640 --> 2:40:52.760 asking if if all this APAC funding will result in 2:40:53.040 --> 2:40:56.560 Stevens quote unquote doing their bidding, referring to a pack 2:40:56.600 --> 2:40:59.640 and with the pro Israel lobby. That interesting, and she 2:40:59.640 --> 2:41:04.680 also lied about receiving funding from the local utility company 2:41:05.000 --> 2:41:08.280 during the debate, So early voting for that's already started. 2:41:08.480 --> 2:41:12.039 The primaries next Tuesday will cover that on next executive disorder. 2:41:12.480 --> 2:41:16.120 Francesca Hong in the Wisconsin governatorial race also had a 2:41:16.120 --> 2:41:18.840 debate on Tuesday. Had not seen that yet, but she 2:41:19.040 --> 2:41:22.720 is really pulling ahead in polls right now, but that 2:41:22.840 --> 2:41:26.680 primary is still a few weeks away. But to stay 2:41:26.720 --> 2:41:31.600 on the topic of evil Republicans. On July twenty, first 2:41:31.920 --> 2:41:36.680 Speaker Mike Johnson dismissed domestic violence allegations against Republican representatives 2:41:36.720 --> 2:41:40.879 Max Miller and Corey Mills, saying quote, well, the keyword 2:41:40.959 --> 2:41:45.560 there is allegation, and then said that the House Ethics 2:41:45.600 --> 2:41:49.320 Committee would shake things out of those two reps. Max 2:41:49.360 --> 2:41:52.920 Miller of Ohio is facing re election in the midst 2:41:53.000 --> 2:41:57.720 of escalating legal issues, including restraining orders, a defamation case, 2:41:57.840 --> 2:42:02.000 and a custody battle. Maximiller ex wife, Emily Morano of 2:42:02.040 --> 2:42:06.320 the America First Policy Institute and daughter of Ohio Senator 2:42:06.440 --> 2:42:10.920 Bernie Morano, has accused Max Miller of abusing her and 2:42:11.120 --> 2:42:16.640 their daughter while investigating suspected child abuse. Mirano told Bay 2:42:16.720 --> 2:42:20.160 Village police that Miller yelled and held a gun to 2:42:20.240 --> 2:42:23.039 her head after she turned on the lights to change 2:42:23.040 --> 2:42:27.000 their baby's diaper Jesus. According to a police report, Morano 2:42:27.120 --> 2:42:30.320 told police but another domestic balance incident from earlier this 2:42:30.440 --> 2:42:35.040 year where during a custody exchange, Miller quote grabbed and 2:42:35.120 --> 2:42:37.920 threw her against the wall, which resulted in an obvious 2:42:37.959 --> 2:42:40.280 grab mark on her upper arm and bruising to her 2:42:40.320 --> 2:42:44.120 stomach and side where she hit the wall unquote. This 2:42:44.280 --> 2:42:47.680 legend incident also was in front of their daughter, and 2:42:47.720 --> 2:42:51.320 the police report later states that Rono's daughter told her 2:42:51.480 --> 2:42:56.240 quote Daddy kill you. Morano and Miller were married in 2:42:56.240 --> 2:42:59.680 twenty twenty two, and Morano filed for divorce in August 2:42:59.800 --> 2:43:04.160 twenty four after telling Miller that she wants a divorce. 2:43:04.200 --> 2:43:07.680 In June of twenty four, Rono alleged that he threw hot, 2:43:07.720 --> 2:43:11.680 steaming water at her. In a recorded phone call, Miller 2:43:11.720 --> 2:43:15.119 admits to what he refers to as the water incident 2:43:15.760 --> 2:43:17.800 after his wife said on the call that he abused 2:43:17.840 --> 2:43:21.640 her and quote poured steaming hot water on her neck. 2:43:22.280 --> 2:43:24.800 On the call, Miller said that the quote unquote water 2:43:24.840 --> 2:43:28.640 incident wasn't done with quote unquote intent to hurt his wife. 2:43:29.440 --> 2:43:32.400 Morano told police she moved out of the house because 2:43:32.440 --> 2:43:34.320 she was quote unquote scared of him. 2:43:34.879 --> 2:43:35.039 Now. 2:43:35.080 --> 2:43:37.959 All of these allegations came to light earlier this year 2:43:38.360 --> 2:43:42.320 after Morano discovered her two year old daughter's collar bone 2:43:42.480 --> 2:43:45.640 was broken after the child came back from Miller's house 2:43:45.840 --> 2:43:49.760 this past February. This prompted a cascade of investigations and 2:43:49.840 --> 2:43:52.280 back and forth court filings, which eventually made their way 2:43:52.320 --> 2:43:56.680 into news reporting. A Bay Village police report investigating suspected 2:43:56.760 --> 2:44:01.160 child abuse stated that a child protections specialist found that 2:44:01.160 --> 2:44:04.560 the two year old's broken collarbone was accompanied by a 2:44:04.600 --> 2:44:09.040 bruise that quote appears to be in a handprint and 2:44:09.160 --> 2:44:12.840 appears to have been inflicted. According to another police report 2:44:12.879 --> 2:44:16.880 obtained by mother Jones, Rono recounted her daughter saying, quote, 2:44:17.360 --> 2:44:22.039 Daddy's house is scary. Miller, of course, denies all claims 2:44:22.040 --> 2:44:25.320 of abuse or domestic violence, and has theorized that the 2:44:25.360 --> 2:44:29.240 broken collarbone was possibly caused by a seat belt. 2:44:29.600 --> 2:44:31.680 Why is a kid wearing a seat belt? Shouldn't they 2:44:31.720 --> 2:44:33.000 be in a car seat when they're two? 2:44:33.840 --> 2:44:38.680 Yes, this was part of the investigation because Miller said 2:44:38.680 --> 2:44:42.640 this okay, and he had to show police that he 2:44:43.120 --> 2:44:48.440 had properly installed a car seat. Right after news outlets 2:44:48.440 --> 2:44:52.120 reported on the spousal and child abuse allegations, Miller filed 2:44:52.120 --> 2:44:54.840 the deformation suit against his ex wife, and this is 2:44:54.920 --> 2:44:57.400 not the first time Miller has used a deformation suit 2:44:57.440 --> 2:45:00.800 to shut down allegations of abuse. In twenty twenty one, 2:45:01.080 --> 2:45:04.080 Stephanie Grisham, a former White has Press secretary in Trump's 2:45:04.080 --> 2:45:07.600 first term, wrote in The Washington Post that her unnamed 2:45:07.640 --> 2:45:10.560 boyfriend from twenty nineteen to twenty twenty quote unquote got 2:45:10.600 --> 2:45:14.279 physical with her, that their relationship quote unquote turned abusive, 2:45:14.760 --> 2:45:17.720 and that her ex boyfriend had quote anger issues and 2:45:17.840 --> 2:45:20.920 a violent streak. These claims were later included in a book, 2:45:21.320 --> 2:45:24.680 but earlier that year, Politico reported that Max Miller quote 2:45:24.840 --> 2:45:27.440 pushed Grisham against a wall and slapped her in the 2:45:27.480 --> 2:45:30.720 face at his Washington apartment after she accused him of 2:45:30.800 --> 2:45:35.279 cheating on her unquote. Max Miller psued Grisham for quote 2:45:35.400 --> 2:45:39.959 libelous and defamatory false statements made about him, but he 2:45:40.000 --> 2:45:42.640 dismissed the case in twenty twenty three after agreeing to 2:45:42.680 --> 2:45:47.480 a settlement, though Grisham is now suing Miller for breaking 2:45:47.560 --> 2:45:51.760 the settlement's nda by publicly claiming that Grisham fabricated in 2:45:51.760 --> 2:45:55.880 abuse allegations against him while defending himself against new allegations 2:45:55.879 --> 2:46:00.000 of abuse by his ex wife. Max Miller's abuse allegation, 2:46:00.000 --> 2:46:02.560 it's been a sort of open secret in Washington for 2:46:02.600 --> 2:46:06.160 a while. When George Santos was dealing with his whole 2:46:06.200 --> 2:46:09.440 thing a few years ago on the house floor, he 2:46:09.560 --> 2:46:13.080 referred to Max Miller as a woman beater. H I 2:46:13.120 --> 2:46:14.800 talked about how he didn't want the publican party to 2:46:14.840 --> 2:46:19.160 just turn into repeating media attacks against each other. As 2:46:19.440 --> 2:46:23.000 he was being kicked out of Congress. Wild he is 2:46:23.080 --> 2:46:28.240 running for re election in Ohio. Yeah, and Miller has 2:46:28.640 --> 2:46:33.600 maintained support from Republicans in Congress, and it's been backed 2:46:33.600 --> 2:46:36.800 by the President for years. Let's go on a break 2:46:36.879 --> 2:46:45.240 and then discuss some more news. 2:46:51.240 --> 2:46:54.640 All right, we are back, and I want to update 2:46:54.680 --> 2:46:57.959 people on the Iranian American Legal Defense Fund versus Rubio 2:46:58.080 --> 2:47:00.520 case we spoke about a few weeks ago. So I've 2:47:00.560 --> 2:47:02.720 reached out to Public Citizen about this and they haven't 2:47:02.760 --> 2:47:04.400 got back to me. I'd love to do an interview 2:47:04.400 --> 2:47:06.879 with them, have worked with them before and some access 2:47:06.920 --> 2:47:10.280 to med stuff, So hopefully someone from Public Citizen will 2:47:10.320 --> 2:47:13.320 listen and reply. But we have learned a lot from 2:47:13.640 --> 2:47:16.080 the new filings in this case. One of the things 2:47:16.120 --> 2:47:18.600 we learned that was the people were required by ICE 2:47:18.640 --> 2:47:21.720 to meet Iranian government officials, the very people they had 2:47:22.000 --> 2:47:25.199 fled to the USA to be safe and protected from. 2:47:25.840 --> 2:47:28.880 It seems that the person who met them was introduced 2:47:28.920 --> 2:47:31.560 as a consul, but around obviously doesn't have a consulate 2:47:31.560 --> 2:47:33.640 in the United States, right, they have the Iranian Interest 2:47:33.640 --> 2:47:37.160 Section which is in the Pakistani embassy. This person had 2:47:37.200 --> 2:47:40.840 information about their cases in other cases, they were told 2:47:40.879 --> 2:47:43.480 they had to take calls from the Iranian interest section 2:47:43.560 --> 2:47:45.600 and they wouldn't be allowed to return to their housing 2:47:45.640 --> 2:47:48.280 pard until they spoke to them on the phone. In 2:47:48.320 --> 2:47:51.600 one of these calls, the Iranian officials that they had 2:47:51.600 --> 2:47:56.480 a transcript of the person's credible fear interview. That is wild, right. 2:47:56.520 --> 2:48:00.000 So the credible fear interview is when people explain why 2:48:00.879 --> 2:48:04.880 they fear going back to where they have fled, I 2:48:04.920 --> 2:48:07.120 what it is that they think the Iranian state in 2:48:07.160 --> 2:48:08.879 this case is going to do to them. So what 2:48:08.920 --> 2:48:12.600 the credible fear interview will will have detailed for these 2:48:12.600 --> 2:48:15.920 people would have been their participation in jinaar Amini protests. 2:48:16.280 --> 2:48:17.960 I saw that in several of the testimonies. I've also 2:48:18.080 --> 2:48:22.400 spoken to dozens of Iranian migrants who participated in those protests, 2:48:22.800 --> 2:48:24.880 were arrested, released and realized that they were going to 2:48:24.879 --> 2:48:27.280 be arrested again and fled or fled before they arrested. 2:48:28.480 --> 2:48:31.960 Or their participation in the Christian faith. You see that 2:48:32.000 --> 2:48:34.160 in a lot of the testimonies. In this case, if 2:48:34.160 --> 2:48:36.400 they're Innian government, have them write down they are Christians. 2:48:36.440 --> 2:48:40.120 They were distributing bibles, they were evangelizing like it is 2:48:40.160 --> 2:48:42.800 absolutely not safe for these people to go back. Some 2:48:42.879 --> 2:48:45.039 of these meetings that the Paito have occurred right here 2:48:45.040 --> 2:48:48.279 in San Diego, the O time Meca Attention Center facility. 2:48:48.680 --> 2:48:51.920 People were bought to the Iranian government official and the 2:48:51.959 --> 2:48:55.039 official then sat down with them and tried to persuade 2:48:55.040 --> 2:48:58.039 them to return to Iran. The official had a list 2:48:58.080 --> 2:48:59.920 of names of people who they were going to meet 2:49:00.440 --> 2:49:02.400 and they read it out, so even some people who 2:49:02.440 --> 2:49:04.520 weren't there, their names were read out. So it was 2:49:04.520 --> 2:49:06.960 like the officials either selected these people or were told 2:49:06.959 --> 2:49:10.400 by I studies people were One of the people named 2:49:10.400 --> 2:49:14.680 the individuals mister Meherbadi, and he threatened that they would 2:49:14.720 --> 2:49:18.039 be sent to quote Africa. So this is the United 2:49:18.040 --> 2:49:22.760 States doing either its chain refoulment or it's sending people 2:49:22.879 --> 2:49:24.480 to third countries deportation. 2:49:24.680 --> 2:49:24.880 Right. 2:49:25.440 --> 2:49:27.280 We also see a lot about the current state of 2:49:27.320 --> 2:49:31.320 the asylum system in these declarations. One person attests that 2:49:31.360 --> 2:49:34.840 she has been and will be tortured in Iran. The 2:49:34.920 --> 2:49:37.800 judge responds to her that everyone gets tortured in Iran. 2:49:38.360 --> 2:49:41.200 In their interview with the quote unquote console, one person 2:49:41.280 --> 2:49:45.000 said they were told by the consul even in the 2:49:45.160 --> 2:49:48.080 US if you are political, the same things can happen 2:49:48.120 --> 2:49:51.080 to you, which is very clearly a threat. Right. The 2:49:51.160 --> 2:49:55.520 regime agent also knew when her husband was being deported 2:49:55.600 --> 2:49:58.400 and to where, so he had that information before he 2:49:58.480 --> 2:50:01.720 met this woman. In another case, someone testified, then ICE 2:50:01.760 --> 2:50:05.200 agents said I will force you. This is my job, 2:50:05.360 --> 2:50:08.480 and this was with reference to signing self deportation papers. 2:50:08.879 --> 2:50:12.160 They cuffed the woman and then quote, he literally forced 2:50:12.200 --> 2:50:15.480 my fingerprint by forcing my finger to a stamp and 2:50:15.520 --> 2:50:18.119 then on a paper, no matter how much I tried 2:50:18.160 --> 2:50:21.080 to take back my finger, which is pretty wild. It's 2:50:21.080 --> 2:50:23.360 not the first time. I should add that we've heard 2:50:23.440 --> 2:50:27.240 allegations of them doing exactly this. So many of the 2:50:27.480 --> 2:50:30.600 people in this document are women who have stories exactly 2:50:30.800 --> 2:50:34.240 like the Iranian women I met the Darien Gap. Many 2:50:34.280 --> 2:50:36.360 of them also say they took that route. They went 2:50:36.400 --> 2:50:38.920 from a run to either Venezuela or Brazil and then 2:50:39.000 --> 2:50:43.600 traveled north from there. They also give details of their 2:50:43.600 --> 2:50:47.560 attention conditions, which are predictably appalling, right, with one writing 2:50:47.680 --> 2:50:51.240 quote water here smells very bad and we are always itchy. 2:50:51.600 --> 2:50:53.640 We all have red dots on our skin that have 2:50:53.720 --> 2:50:57.000 also gone away on my body after I started antibiotics 2:50:57.800 --> 2:50:59.920 and then skipping a bit. The dental care here is 2:51:00.080 --> 2:51:04.480 unbelievably dangerous. Any happening with teeth, and they only extract. 2:51:04.879 --> 2:51:07.760 The doctors here have already extracted three of my teeth 2:51:07.840 --> 2:51:10.080 and have told me they will extract another three more 2:51:10.120 --> 2:51:13.280 when my antibiotics were over. I have always taken care 2:51:13.320 --> 2:51:19.360 of my teeth. They also talk about the I was 2:51:19.400 --> 2:51:21.560 just quote from one of the one of their statements here. 2:51:21.760 --> 2:51:24.920 This disclosure and that I'm adding this of asylum information 2:51:25.000 --> 2:51:27.600 to the Iranian government. Returning to the quote here has 2:51:27.680 --> 2:51:30.640 materially increased the likelihood that I will be tained, interrogated, 2:51:30.720 --> 2:51:33.400 or tortured or killed if I ever returned to Iran. 2:51:34.280 --> 2:51:37.880 Another said, when I saw him talking about the Ranian consul, 2:51:38.200 --> 2:51:40.960 I was disgusted with the US government by forcing us 2:51:40.959 --> 2:51:43.080 to meet with agents of the regime, which I told 2:51:43.160 --> 2:51:45.800 my pod manager. Many of these people have been in 2:51:45.800 --> 2:51:48.119 detention for more than a year. It seems like most 2:51:48.160 --> 2:51:51.920 of these people entered in twenty twenty five. A member 2:51:52.000 --> 2:51:55.560 of staff at the Iranian Interest Section also called the 2:51:55.640 --> 2:51:59.680 Iranian American Legal Defense Fund and informed them the United 2:51:59.720 --> 2:52:03.360 States State Department had approached the Interest Section to ask 2:52:03.560 --> 2:52:07.360 for help getting rid of Iranian detainees. That's a quote 2:52:07.360 --> 2:52:11.240 that last getting rid of The Iranian officials said they 2:52:11.280 --> 2:52:15.640 met monthly with ICE to select individuals for deportation, and 2:52:15.680 --> 2:52:19.360 the ICE provided their asylum applications to the Iranians. At 2:52:19.400 --> 2:52:22.800 these meetings, they said they met with someone of Indian 2:52:22.800 --> 2:52:26.800 descent with Georgetown degree, who is described as the General 2:52:26.879 --> 2:52:31.080 Director of the Middle East Section. The meetings stopped when 2:52:31.120 --> 2:52:35.120 the war with Iran began, but apparently they still delivered documents, 2:52:35.200 --> 2:52:38.400 or at least a were delivering document in March. This 2:52:38.600 --> 2:52:42.800 core from the Iranian Interest Section to the ILDF is wild. 2:52:43.280 --> 2:52:47.560 It involves this Iranian official recounting, for instance, that on 2:52:47.600 --> 2:52:50.520 the first deportation flight September of last year, two people 2:52:50.560 --> 2:52:54.560 cut their wrists with razors, presumably attempting to end their 2:52:54.560 --> 2:52:57.600 lives rather than go back to Iran. It also details 2:52:57.600 --> 2:53:00.800 how in many cases, the United States can't that the 2:53:00.920 --> 2:53:04.360 people's travel documents together because if they fly vire a 2:53:04.480 --> 2:53:07.040 third country to Iran, right there's no direct flights between 2:53:07.040 --> 2:53:09.600 the US in Iran, and so these flights end up 2:53:09.600 --> 2:53:12.680 not being as full as the United States no doubt hopes. 2:53:13.480 --> 2:53:16.760 He also says that the clothing and state of the 2:53:16.800 --> 2:53:21.279 detainees was so poor that the Iranian government official purchased 2:53:21.280 --> 2:53:24.800 some clothing from Costco with his own money. He also 2:53:24.879 --> 2:53:27.200 said that at no point did the United States ask 2:53:27.320 --> 2:53:32.640 Iran to guarantee their well being in Iran. The official 2:53:32.720 --> 2:53:35.200 kind of posits himself as like intervening on behalf of 2:53:35.240 --> 2:53:39.240 the Iranian people to make sure they're treated correctly. Right, 2:53:39.280 --> 2:53:44.360 which is how generally one would expect the consular administration 2:53:44.600 --> 2:53:46.760 of a state to intervene on behalf that it's in. 2:53:46.840 --> 2:53:49.760 This though, is different because these people are fleeing the 2:53:49.840 --> 2:53:53.240 very government that he represents. Right. I will keep covering this. 2:53:53.560 --> 2:53:56.400 I will also link to the court listener page where 2:53:56.400 --> 2:53:59.000 you can read these testimonies. They're all handwritten. They can 2:53:59.040 --> 2:54:00.600 be a little harder to read so some times, but 2:54:00.640 --> 2:54:03.600 there's some really shocking and upsetting stuff in there. 2:54:04.160 --> 2:54:07.080 For me, if you've talked about this already, and maybe 2:54:07.080 --> 2:54:09.119 this will help us for some listeners too, Like how 2:54:09.120 --> 2:54:12.640 does this relate to the asylum laws that the United 2:54:12.640 --> 2:54:15.640 States has? Like have they been denied asylum in so 2:54:15.680 --> 2:54:18.760 called immigration courts? And this is the process for removal? 2:54:18.800 --> 2:54:21.520 And how is that actually like decided because like these 2:54:21.560 --> 2:54:23.480 people seem to have, like in the testimon as you're reading, 2:54:23.920 --> 2:54:26.360 very credible fears to the point where they're attempt to 2:54:26.360 --> 2:54:29.760 like harming themselves to avoid going back to this state. 2:54:30.200 --> 2:54:33.320 Yeah, so it seems like most of these people entered 2:54:33.360 --> 2:54:36.800 after Trump came in with his Day one effectively like 2:54:36.879 --> 2:54:40.000 southern border crossing asylum ban, right, and so they are 2:54:40.040 --> 2:54:43.680 having to fight their cases from detention, which is what 2:54:43.760 --> 2:54:47.119 they are doing. In some cases, they are already appealing 2:54:47.520 --> 2:54:49.840 because the government has found that they don't have a 2:54:49.840 --> 2:54:53.359 credible fear or that they're otherwise not eligible for asylum. 2:54:53.840 --> 2:54:56.360 The reason the ILDF knows about these people is that 2:54:56.360 --> 2:54:58.240 that is what it is doing as a nonprofit group, 2:54:58.280 --> 2:55:00.879 is helping them fight fight their case. Is sure, it 2:55:00.959 --> 2:55:05.320 shows a pretty fucking bleak situation. Like people do still 2:55:05.360 --> 2:55:07.760 get asylum. I hear about it occasionally, you know, I 2:55:07.840 --> 2:55:11.480 hear from friends in the community who do court accompaniments 2:55:11.480 --> 2:55:14.680 that they occasionally have a success still, But with the 2:55:14.720 --> 2:55:18.120 way that the Trump administration is purging the ranks of 2:55:18.680 --> 2:55:23.360 immigration quote unquote judges, that's getting less and less likely. So, 2:55:23.480 --> 2:55:26.280 like these people are in that system, many of them 2:55:26.280 --> 2:55:30.080 are either in ever spiraling delays, right, because we have 2:55:30.120 --> 2:55:32.000 few and few of these judges because they're getting purged. 2:55:32.040 --> 2:55:35.439 More judges are coming on board now, or they're already 2:55:35.800 --> 2:55:39.359 appealing or going through the CAT process Convention against Torture process. 2:55:39.440 --> 2:55:39.600 Right. 2:55:39.959 --> 2:55:42.040 These are the sort of asylum claims that are like 2:55:42.440 --> 2:55:45.640 in the bullseye of what an asylum claim is. Right, 2:55:45.959 --> 2:55:48.320 all of these people in there, I didn't want to 2:55:48.320 --> 2:55:49.840 read them out because I don't think there's any reason 2:55:49.840 --> 2:55:53.320 to traumatize people. Nearly all of them detail torture. Most 2:55:53.360 --> 2:55:56.520 of the women detail sexual abuse. They talk about the 2:55:56.520 --> 2:55:59.000 horrific things they went through on the way here to Like, 2:55:59.520 --> 2:56:02.280 this is like friend and center of what you would 2:56:02.320 --> 2:56:05.440 think a textbook asylum case would be normally. And there 2:56:05.480 --> 2:56:09.960 are exemptions for some Christian minorities or religious minorities from 2:56:09.959 --> 2:56:12.840 Iran who largely Christian people ran some of these visa bands. 2:56:13.520 --> 2:56:15.440 But these people didn't come that way. Whether they didn't 2:56:15.480 --> 2:56:17.640 come by applying for a visa, they came across a 2:56:17.640 --> 2:56:20.000 southern border. Like, it's very possible that one of the 2:56:20.040 --> 2:56:22.000 people in this case is somebody I met in the 2:56:22.080 --> 2:56:24.320 darying gap, that the timing would line up It's been 2:56:24.360 --> 2:56:26.680 really fucking upsetting for me reading these things. 2:56:27.160 --> 2:56:31.160 Thank you for that context. Earlier this episode, we talked 2:56:31.160 --> 2:56:33.120 about attacks on the First Amendment as a part of 2:56:33.240 --> 2:56:36.320 the Trump admins cracked down on the left. But before 2:56:36.360 --> 2:56:39.200 we close, I want to go over a novel case 2:56:39.360 --> 2:56:43.840 of state repression against an Atlanta based activist. This is 2:56:43.879 --> 2:56:46.880 a first of its kind case focusing on an extreme 2:56:47.040 --> 2:56:51.440 privacy feature of graphene os, an open source operating system 2:56:51.520 --> 2:56:55.640 for Android phones. This feature is known as a dress password, 2:56:56.080 --> 2:56:59.640 a special code that, when inputed into a phone's locked 2:56:59.640 --> 2:57:03.160 pass word screen, triggers a wipe of certain data on 2:57:03.320 --> 2:57:07.320 the phone. Last November, a federal grand jury indicted an 2:57:07.320 --> 2:57:10.640 Atlanta activist for allegedly wiping the data on his phone 2:57:11.080 --> 2:57:13.840 after being detained at the airport upon re entering the 2:57:13.879 --> 2:57:18.120 country in January of twenty twenty five. US attorneys to 2:57:18.120 --> 2:57:21.520 say this was in violation of Title eighteen USC. Section 2:57:21.959 --> 2:57:25.600 two two three two A, that is the destruction or 2:57:25.680 --> 2:57:30.279 removal of property to prevent seizure. The short, single paragraph 2:57:30.360 --> 2:57:35.200 indictment reads that the defendant quote did knowingly destroy, damage, waste, 2:57:35.240 --> 2:57:38.800 disposed of, and otherwise take any action to delete the 2:57:38.800 --> 2:57:42.520 digital contents of a Google Pixel cellulair phone for the 2:57:42.520 --> 2:57:46.200 purpose of preventing and impairing the government's lawful authority to 2:57:46.320 --> 2:57:50.240 take said property into its custody and control before and 2:57:50.400 --> 2:57:53.760 during the search for and seizure of property by customs, 2:57:53.760 --> 2:57:58.800 said Border Patrol Tactical Terrorism Response Team Supervisory Officer JC. 2:57:59.560 --> 2:58:03.760 That's the name of the officer. Last week, this case 2:58:03.840 --> 2:58:07.600 had its first hearing, which was focused on a motion 2:58:08.000 --> 2:58:11.879 filed by the defense to suppress evidence and statements for 2:58:12.000 --> 2:58:16.040 violations of the fourth, fifth, and sixth Amendments. According to 2:58:16.080 --> 2:58:20.800 the motion, the FBI Atlanta Joined Terrorism Task Force coordinated 2:58:20.800 --> 2:58:25.320 with CPB to question and search US citizen Samuel Tunic 2:58:25.720 --> 2:58:28.280 as he was returning to the United States from the 2:58:28.280 --> 2:58:32.480 Dominican Republic because of his associations with the Defend the 2:58:32.520 --> 2:58:36.240 Atlanta Forest Movement or Stop Coop City, which we have 2:58:36.320 --> 2:58:40.199 covered on this show. Basically, after arriving at the airport, 2:58:40.520 --> 2:58:46.119 CPB put Tunic in secondary inspection where their Tactical Terrorism 2:58:46.160 --> 2:58:50.000 Response Team QUOTE proceeded to question mister Tunic, search mister 2:58:50.040 --> 2:58:53.480 Tunic's body and all his belongings, and insisted that he 2:58:53.640 --> 2:58:57.960 provide the password for his phone. Despite mister Tunic's request 2:58:58.000 --> 2:58:59.960 to speak with his lawyer and not engage in a 2:59:00.200 --> 2:59:04.200 further questioning, The officers insisted they could question mister Tunic 2:59:04.440 --> 2:59:08.360 and search his phone to determine whether he had child porn. 2:59:09.000 --> 2:59:12.800 Evidently this was a pretext for a phishing expedition into 2:59:12.800 --> 2:59:17.720 mister Tunick's connections with the Defend the Atlanta Forest movement unquote. 2:59:18.520 --> 2:59:22.039 A journalist Timothy Pratt reported in the Guardian that during 2:59:22.120 --> 2:59:26.560 last week's hearing, it was revealed that, unbeknownst to Samuel Tunnick, 2:59:27.040 --> 2:59:29.840 federal authorities had put him on a terrorism watch list, 2:59:30.320 --> 2:59:33.360 and that a Homeland Security agent circulated an email three 2:59:33.440 --> 2:59:37.440 hours before Tunk arrived back in Atlanta containing his name 2:59:37.480 --> 2:59:40.840 and photo and indicated he was being investigated for quote 2:59:40.879 --> 2:59:45.200 unquote suspected terrorism activities. I think it is important to 2:59:45.240 --> 2:59:49.360 mention that Samuel Tunic to this point has not been 2:59:49.440 --> 2:59:52.880 charged with terrorism and does not face any charges directly 2:59:52.920 --> 2:59:56.600 related to protest activity for Defend the Atlanta Forest or 2:59:56.680 --> 3:00:01.160 Stop Coop City. According to the defense's motion, Tunic early 3:00:01.240 --> 3:00:04.880 and repeatedly during questioning so that he would not speak 3:00:04.920 --> 3:00:08.439 without his lawyer, but the officer has ignored these requests 3:00:08.560 --> 3:00:11.800 and never mirandized Tunic. The motion states that the officers 3:00:11.840 --> 3:00:15.120 told him quote, because you're refusing to talk, which is 3:00:15.120 --> 3:00:18.039 you're right, we have the authority to go through your 3:00:18.080 --> 3:00:22.240 phone to see what we're looking for. After officers demanded 3:00:22.240 --> 3:00:25.480 his phone password a second time, Tunic asked again why 3:00:25.520 --> 3:00:29.119 he wasn't allowed to call his lawyer, and the officers responded, quote, 3:00:29.320 --> 3:00:32.039 when it comes to immigration and customs, right, it's a 3:00:32.080 --> 3:00:36.240 whole different ballgame, and we have search authority. We don't 3:00:36.320 --> 3:00:37.120 need a warrant. 3:00:37.480 --> 3:00:40.640 Unquote. I'm not a lawyer. This is not legal advice. 3:00:41.120 --> 3:00:43.200 If this is something you are concerned about, then you 3:00:43.200 --> 3:00:46.360 should seek out legal counsel. I'm just going to give 3:00:46.400 --> 3:00:49.760 you my percenterstanding of it. This is a civil situation. 3:00:49.959 --> 3:00:52.520 Well it's also a criminal situation for him now, but 3:00:52.680 --> 3:00:56.240 like when you're entering the border, these are civil proceedings 3:00:56.720 --> 3:00:59.960 and so that that's why you're Germany not mirandized. Depends 3:01:00.080 --> 3:01:03.000 ending on where you enter the United States and what 3:01:03.160 --> 3:01:07.879 circuit you are in, they can inspect your telephone. My 3:01:07.920 --> 3:01:12.000 Idenmert understanding is should you refuse to unlock that telephone, 3:01:12.440 --> 3:01:17.039 you can expect to leave without your telephone. The general 3:01:17.120 --> 3:01:19.480 way that they do this is for them to put 3:01:19.480 --> 3:01:23.000 the phone on airplane mode and then search it because 3:01:23.000 --> 3:01:26.040 they are searching the device that is entering United States, 3:01:26.080 --> 3:01:31.080 not the remote cloud stuff that is not on the device, right, 3:01:31.120 --> 3:01:35.640 Because they are inspecting a thing that is crossing the border, right, 3:01:35.680 --> 3:01:38.840 and that is within their purview in most circuits in 3:01:38.879 --> 3:01:43.960 the United States right now as federal immigration officers. And 3:01:43.959 --> 3:01:47.280 then the other thing I would add, at some point, 3:01:47.320 --> 3:01:49.520 I think we're going to see a Supreme Court case 3:01:49.560 --> 3:01:51.760 about it, and this might be the one, right. 3:01:51.560 --> 3:01:52.400 That's very possible. 3:01:52.440 --> 3:01:55.440 Yeah, orbit there'll be other elements to this case, right, Like, 3:01:55.480 --> 3:01:58.480 as you said, who destroyed the data that was on 3:01:58.520 --> 3:02:02.240 the phone is something that's very much legally clear to me. Right, 3:02:02.520 --> 3:02:05.480 did Graphene destroy the data? Did the BP agents when 3:02:05.480 --> 3:02:07.800 they entered that pass code destroy the data? Right? Or 3:02:07.800 --> 3:02:09.200 did the person destroy the data? 3:02:09.480 --> 3:02:09.680 Yeah? 3:02:09.720 --> 3:02:12.480 This this case is a whole bunch of legal gray areas. 3:02:12.560 --> 3:02:14.840 This is the first time we've seen a case about 3:02:14.879 --> 3:02:17.880 a dressed password the exact way this introgation went and 3:02:18.000 --> 3:02:21.760 introduces a lot of questions on when exactly this regular 3:02:22.240 --> 3:02:26.360 border patrol questioning turned into an actual interrogation based on 3:02:26.440 --> 3:02:29.960 allegations of a crime right with this mention of child 3:02:30.080 --> 3:02:33.760 sexual abast material and all those things could possibly trigger 3:02:33.879 --> 3:02:38.720 different legal statutes in various court cases. Now, the motion 3:02:38.920 --> 3:02:43.560 says that officers explained to Tunic that he would have 3:02:43.640 --> 3:02:46.640 to give over access to his phone quote, whether it 3:02:46.720 --> 3:02:50.800 was done with his cooperation or not. Eventually, mister Tunic 3:02:50.840 --> 3:02:54.480 provided a password to his cell phone and e reader. 3:02:54.840 --> 3:02:57.400 According to the government, when the CPB officers entered the 3:02:57.440 --> 3:03:00.640 password on his cell phone quote, the screen went blank, 3:03:00.800 --> 3:03:05.600 flashed several times, and the phone appeared to restart. After this, 3:03:06.320 --> 3:03:08.480 another officer entered the room to conduct a pat down, 3:03:08.560 --> 3:03:10.760 which Tonic did not consent to, but they did anyway. 3:03:11.280 --> 3:03:14.240 Then a DHS agent arrived with three other individuals to 3:03:14.280 --> 3:03:18.520 conduct another interview, which Tunic did not consent to and 3:03:18.560 --> 3:03:21.600 pointed to his attorney's card to quote from the motion 3:03:21.680 --> 3:03:24.480 again quote. The agent explained that he was seizing mister 3:03:24.480 --> 3:03:27.039 Tunic's electronic devices and that they would be returned to 3:03:27.080 --> 3:03:30.840 mister Tonck after thirty days. Notably, the DHS agent explained 3:03:30.840 --> 3:03:34.080 that mister Tonick was quote not under arrest, but once 3:03:34.200 --> 3:03:37.600 these gentlemen are done with you pursuant to your entry 3:03:37.640 --> 3:03:42.280 into the country, you're free to leave unquote. So this 3:03:42.480 --> 3:03:47.199 motion dispress evidence argued that the border questioning became quote 3:03:47.240 --> 3:03:51.440 unquote custodial in nature when mister Tunic was not able 3:03:51.480 --> 3:03:53.640 to leave, was never informed of his rights and was 3:03:53.680 --> 3:03:57.840 denied access to his lawyer, and so any quote, evidence 3:03:57.840 --> 3:04:01.480 obtained from his phone or lack thereof, should be suppressed 3:04:01.520 --> 3:04:04.840 as fruits of unlawfully obtained evidence. The specific statute that 3:04:04.879 --> 3:04:08.120 he's been charged with eighteen Usc. Two two three two 3:04:08.160 --> 3:04:12.120 refers to quote the government's lawful authority to take such property. 3:04:12.680 --> 3:04:15.520 So this motion is arguing that the exact way this 3:04:15.560 --> 3:04:19.920 properties was taken was not lawful. Yeah, to quote from 3:04:19.920 --> 3:04:24.240 the motion again, I think we'll expound on this quote. 3:04:24.640 --> 3:04:27.480 CBB officers introduced themselves to mister Tunick and explained that 3:04:27.520 --> 3:04:31.520 they were looking for people who are pedophiles. Officers justified 3:04:31.560 --> 3:04:34.160 their questioning and demands to search mister Tutuck's phone by 3:04:34.160 --> 3:04:38.000 stating that they had to confirm whether he possessed child porn. 3:04:38.720 --> 3:04:42.720 The government's reports do not indicate any suspicion whatsoever that 3:04:42.760 --> 3:04:45.240 mister Tunick was in possession of child porn, but rather 3:04:45.360 --> 3:04:48.240 that their purpose in detaining mister Tunick and scizing his 3:04:48.280 --> 3:04:50.760 belongings was to investigate his ties with the Defend the 3:04:50.760 --> 3:04:55.600 Atlanta Forest movement. To an unmorandized statement, the alleged wiping 3:04:56.040 --> 3:04:59.000 or encryption of the contents of his phone by providing 3:04:59.040 --> 3:05:02.280 agents with the specific power word is testimonial in nature. 3:05:02.760 --> 3:05:06.199 Mister Tonk had not been charged with committing a crime 3:05:06.280 --> 3:05:09.000 in connection with the Defend the Lanta Force movement, but 3:05:09.280 --> 3:05:12.360 law enforcements seem we took advantage of the relaxed constitutional 3:05:12.400 --> 3:05:15.960 protections at the border to try to dig up evidence unquote. 3:05:16.560 --> 3:05:21.400 And the motion states that circuit cords have contradictory rulings 3:05:21.440 --> 3:05:25.280 if this sort of search is permitted, if you can 3:05:25.320 --> 3:05:28.920 search someone's phone at the border, not to actually intercept 3:05:29.000 --> 3:05:33.279 digital contraband, but to fish for evidence in an unrelated 3:05:33.320 --> 3:05:37.360 criminal investigation. Now, something that may come up if this 3:05:37.400 --> 3:05:42.240 goes to trial is technically using Graphene's stress password does 3:05:42.240 --> 3:05:45.640 not delete all of the data on the phone, but 3:05:46.000 --> 3:05:50.600 rather the phone loses the ability to access its encrypted data. 3:05:51.120 --> 3:05:54.360 Graphinos wrote on x the Everything app quote our dress 3:05:54.440 --> 3:05:57.400 pin slash password leaves all the encrypted data on the 3:05:57.440 --> 3:06:01.240 device intact, it only wipes key in the hardware key 3:06:01.280 --> 3:06:05.480 stores the secure element and encryption metadata. It's a near instant, 3:06:05.720 --> 3:06:09.040 and then it powers off the device to wipe ram unquote. 3:06:09.280 --> 3:06:12.920 So basically it wipes what the phone needs to decrypt 3:06:13.000 --> 3:06:17.360 its contents and read the data. Though Graphene followed up 3:06:17.440 --> 3:06:21.560 on Twitter, quote, we doubt that's legally different from wiping 3:06:21.680 --> 3:06:25.520 data unquote, So this technicality may or may not actually 3:06:25.560 --> 3:06:28.920 matter to the court. But this might not be a 3:06:29.000 --> 3:06:31.840 sort of get out of jail loophole that I see 3:06:31.840 --> 3:06:36.160 some people online presenting it as. Graphinos further explained that 3:06:36.760 --> 3:06:39.879 the duress password wipe should be legal not because of 3:06:39.920 --> 3:06:43.320 this quote unquote tech loophole, but because the defendant quote 3:06:43.640 --> 3:06:46.879 wasn't being investigated for any actual crime, wasn't under arrest, 3:06:47.000 --> 3:06:49.960 wasn't reta his rights before being interrogated, it wasn't under oath, 3:06:50.000 --> 3:06:52.800 et cetera, adding that it's quote near impossible that they 3:06:52.840 --> 3:06:55.760 get anything of value if the phone was in before 3:06:55.840 --> 3:06:59.960 first unlock with a strong passphrase plus second factor finger 3:07:00.080 --> 3:07:03.800 print unlock set up unquote. Whether or not this stress 3:07:03.840 --> 3:07:08.199 password was used, it is very unlikely that federal authorities 3:07:08.240 --> 3:07:11.320 would have been able to break into a phone running 3:07:11.360 --> 3:07:14.760 the Graphine operating system. That means that the device has 3:07:14.760 --> 3:07:18.160 been fully turned off and has not been unlocked since 3:07:18.200 --> 3:07:21.959 being turned back on. Similarly, it is very hard to 3:07:21.959 --> 3:07:26.440 break into an iPhone running iOS's lockdown mode with a 3:07:26.720 --> 3:07:32.120 complex alphanumeric password before first unlock. The combination of all 3:07:32.160 --> 3:07:34.480 those things can make it really hard to break in. 3:07:34.800 --> 3:07:38.080 We saw that, right Reese with a reporter from get Who, 3:07:38.120 --> 3:07:40.600 one of the broadsheets whose phone was using lockdown, though 3:07:40.600 --> 3:07:43.800 they've said they couldn't open right. Yeah, I guess I 3:07:43.800 --> 3:07:47.200 will just say that, Like, if people want to know 3:07:47.440 --> 3:07:51.760 more about border searches and telephones, I would suggest going 3:07:51.800 --> 3:07:56.800 to Electronic Frontier Foundation's page eff dot org. They have 3:07:56.920 --> 3:08:00.800 a great deal of information and you can find a 3:08:00.800 --> 3:08:03.440 lot there. It's currently the Southern District of New York, 3:08:03.480 --> 3:08:06.200 which is the one that requires a warrant, but there 3:08:06.240 --> 3:08:09.000 are various other degrees that we don't have the time, 3:08:09.040 --> 3:08:10.600 nor is this a place for us to go over. 3:08:10.720 --> 3:08:13.480 So yeah, eff Rolway is a good source for the ship. 3:08:13.879 --> 3:08:15.760 Yeah, but like James said, this is a case that 3:08:15.879 --> 3:08:19.480 could become Supreme Court precedent over time. This is invoking 3:08:19.520 --> 3:08:23.400 a bunch of legal gray areas. The motion here to 3:08:23.400 --> 3:08:26.600 express evidence probably won't be decided on until it be October, 3:08:26.840 --> 3:08:29.240 so this is going to go on for quite a while. 3:08:29.680 --> 3:08:33.959 This is another new frontier in digital privacy and how 3:08:34.000 --> 3:08:35.840 that relates to the law, which the Supreme Court has 3:08:35.879 --> 3:08:38.240 taken up a lot of cases on recently. So this 3:08:38.560 --> 3:08:41.320 could become a very influential case going forward. So I 3:08:41.360 --> 3:08:44.520 wanted to go over some of these details now, and 3:08:44.560 --> 3:08:47.680 we will certainly be covering this in the future as 3:08:47.680 --> 3:08:49.200 this as this case progresses. 3:08:49.879 --> 3:08:54.000 Yeah, the outlook hasn't been great so far, I would 3:08:54.040 --> 3:08:58.880 say with this, like the US versus Belmonte Caddoso was 3:08:58.920 --> 3:09:01.880 the most recent case that was I think this week 3:09:02.040 --> 3:09:05.320 or last week. Again, not the place to go into this, 3:09:05.360 --> 3:09:07.040 but I will include a link in the source notes 3:09:07.040 --> 3:09:08.680 if you want to read about some of the case law. 3:09:09.879 --> 3:09:14.359 I think that does it for us today. 3:09:14.240 --> 3:09:15.959 Sake, and it could happen here. 3:09:16.040 --> 3:09:16.440 Oh good. 3:09:16.920 --> 3:09:20.160 Yeah, if you would like to email us, it's cool 3:09:20.240 --> 3:09:23.120 Zone tips at proton dot me. 3:09:23.920 --> 3:09:28.760 I'll include the legal fundraiser for Samtochnic's case below. 3:09:29.640 --> 3:09:30.879 We reported the news. 3:09:30.879 --> 3:09:33.840 The news reported, We reported the news. 3:09:39.640 --> 3:09:42.800 Hey, we'll be back Monday, with more episodes every week 3:09:42.840 --> 3:09:44.760 from now until the heat death of the Universe. 3:09:45.520 --> 3:09:47.959 It Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. 3:09:48.200 --> 3:09:51.240 For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 3:09:51.320 --> 3:09:54.879 Coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 3:09:54.959 --> 3:09:58.720 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts can now 3:09:58.760 --> 3:10:00.960 find sources where it Could Happen here listed directly on 3:10:01.040 --> 3:10:03.240 episode descriptions. 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