WEBVTT - Is Amanda Knox Finally Free? 0:00:14.956 --> 0:00:23.076 Pushkin hay Slight Changers. A quick heads up, This is 0:00:23.156 --> 0:00:26.596 part two of my conversation with Amanda Knox. If you 0:00:26.636 --> 0:00:29.236 haven't listened to part one, we released it in the 0:00:29.236 --> 0:00:32.476 Feed last week. I highly recommend you go back and listen. 0:00:32.876 --> 0:00:35.956 You won't want to miss the full story. Okay, now 0:00:35.956 --> 0:00:36.636 onto the show. 0:00:47.276 --> 0:00:49.236 I have all of. 0:00:49.116 --> 0:00:52.596 This psychological baggage that I'm carrying with me, and the 0:00:52.756 --> 0:00:55.316 last thing I want to do is to pass that 0:00:55.436 --> 0:00:57.836 on to my daughter. So I have to figure this out. 0:00:58.036 --> 0:01:00.476 Is this puzzle of my trauma. I have to figure 0:01:00.516 --> 0:01:02.156 it out, and I have to figure it out. 0:01:02.556 --> 0:01:04.436 Now, like yesterday. 0:01:05.236 --> 0:01:08.636 Amanda Knox has spent a decade trying to move on 0:01:08.756 --> 0:01:12.276 from the worst thing that ever happened to her, being 0:01:12.316 --> 0:01:17.116 wrongfully convicted of murder, and she's felt haunted by one question, 0:01:17.276 --> 0:01:22.876 in particular, why why was the lead prosecutor, Giuliano Mignini 0:01:23.356 --> 0:01:25.196 so determined to vilify her? 0:01:25.836 --> 0:01:33.716 I couldn't understand how like very immediately, like from day one, 0:01:33.756 --> 0:01:38.156 people and particularly Giuliano Mignini, saw guilt in me that 0:01:38.316 --> 0:01:42.596 wasn't there, And I realized that the only way to 0:01:42.716 --> 0:01:50.516 truly understand was to ask him. 0:01:50.676 --> 0:01:54.316 On today's show Amanda confronts the man who helped put 0:01:54.316 --> 0:01:59.716 her behind bars. I'm Maya Shunker, a scientist who studies 0:01:59.796 --> 0:02:03.156 human behavior, and this is a slight change of plans, 0:02:03.516 --> 0:02:05.796 a show about who we are and who we become 0:02:06.076 --> 0:02:16.276 in the face of a big change. It is shocking 0:02:16.356 --> 0:02:19.956 to me how many people still believe Amanda Knox is 0:02:19.996 --> 0:02:24.636 guilty of murder, despite the lack of forensic evidence. The 0:02:24.676 --> 0:02:28.036 real killer was identified and sentenced in two thousand and 0:02:28.036 --> 0:02:31.836 eight after his DNA was discovered all over the body 0:02:31.876 --> 0:02:36.276 of the victim, Meredith Kircher. Meredith was Amanda's roommate at 0:02:36.276 --> 0:02:40.956 the time. Amanda was initially sentenced to twenty six years 0:02:40.996 --> 0:02:44.596 in an Italian prison, and she spent nearly four years 0:02:44.596 --> 0:02:49.076 behind bars before being acquitted on appeal. But even after 0:02:49.196 --> 0:02:53.196 Amanda's release, after she returned to the US, the prosecution 0:02:53.436 --> 0:02:57.556 continued to pursue her, and at one point they reconvicted her. 0:02:58.476 --> 0:03:03.156 After a painful multi year legal battle, Amanda was finally 0:03:03.236 --> 0:03:08.956 definitively exonerated in twenty fifteen by Italy's highest court. The 0:03:09.276 --> 0:03:13.156 years of public vilification and fear have taken a massive 0:03:13.236 --> 0:03:17.436 emotional toll on Amanda and recently, she made a bold 0:03:17.476 --> 0:03:21.276 and surprising decision to reach back out to her prosecutor. 0:03:21.996 --> 0:03:24.956 I wanted to know why. She told me part of 0:03:24.996 --> 0:03:27.836 it had to do with becoming a mom and wanting 0:03:27.836 --> 0:03:31.356 to unpack her trauma for the sake of her young children. 0:03:31.796 --> 0:03:34.516 We started our conversation by going back to the moment 0:03:34.636 --> 0:03:37.996 she received her initial prison sentence at age twenty two 0:03:38.796 --> 0:03:41.196 and what it all meant for her long held dream 0:03:41.396 --> 0:03:42.796 of one day having a family. 0:03:43.836 --> 0:03:46.516 The minute they handed down that twenty six year sentence 0:03:46.556 --> 0:03:49.236 to me, I did the math, and I knew what 0:03:49.436 --> 0:03:51.796 my body was capable of and what it was not 0:03:51.876 --> 0:03:55.796 capable of, and I reasoned that I had not just 0:03:55.836 --> 0:03:59.116 been condemned to prison time. I had been condemned to infertility, 0:03:59.556 --> 0:04:03.516 which was devastating for me because I had always wanted 0:04:03.516 --> 0:04:05.916 to be a mom, Like my mom made me sign 0:04:05.996 --> 0:04:09.596 a contract in Green cran when I was like six 0:04:09.756 --> 0:04:12.076 or seven years old, because I was already talking about 0:04:12.276 --> 0:04:14.516 wanting to be a mom, and as a very young 0:04:14.636 --> 0:04:17.236 single mom, she was like, I'm gonna make you sign 0:04:17.276 --> 0:04:19.596 a contract that says you're gonna wait until you're thirty 0:04:19.876 --> 0:04:22.796 to be a mom, because I seriously. 0:04:22.396 --> 0:04:23.876 Like already like six or seven. 0:04:23.956 --> 0:04:25.316 I was like, I can't wait to be a mom, 0:04:25.316 --> 0:04:30.516 and she's like, will see so yeah, So to be 0:04:30.636 --> 0:04:35.236 given the opportunity to like get out of prison as 0:04:35.316 --> 0:04:38.196 a young person, still within my fertile years, I was 0:04:38.236 --> 0:04:40.876 still up against a huge challenge, right Like I was 0:04:40.916 --> 0:04:44.316 still the girl accused of murder, which felt very, very 0:04:44.396 --> 0:04:47.996 ostracizing and very limiting to me at that point, and 0:04:48.116 --> 0:04:51.236 so I still was at a loss of how I 0:04:51.316 --> 0:04:53.076 was going to be able to have a family and 0:04:53.116 --> 0:04:56.876 have a career and be a mom, Like, who would 0:04:56.876 --> 0:05:00.396 ever want to date Amanda Knox with all the baggage 0:05:00.436 --> 0:05:03.756 that comes with it. I was estranged from the world. 0:05:03.916 --> 0:05:07.036 And then I got very, very lucky. In twenty fifteen, 0:05:07.396 --> 0:05:11.356 I met for the first time my husband, and to 0:05:11.596 --> 0:05:16.796 Chris's credit, he did not allow himself to be influenced 0:05:16.836 --> 0:05:18.756 by all of the crap that was said about me 0:05:18.836 --> 0:05:20.996 in the world. And I'm so grateful to him, because 0:05:20.996 --> 0:05:22.836 if you really want to go down that Amanda Knox 0:05:22.876 --> 0:05:25.596 rabbit hole, you can find whatever you want, and it's 0:05:25.716 --> 0:05:26.516 very scandalous. 0:05:26.556 --> 0:05:28.356 Here's a lot. And so he's. 0:05:28.156 --> 0:05:34.116 Always been very mindful of being respectful of my humanity, 0:05:34.156 --> 0:05:36.916 and allowing me to be the one to share with 0:05:37.036 --> 0:05:40.996 him those moments of extreme life that I have lived. 0:05:41.756 --> 0:05:45.076 So you and Chris get married, and you start trying 0:05:45.116 --> 0:05:48.396 to have children, and then one day you find yourself 0:05:48.436 --> 0:05:52.236 staring at a positive pregnancy test. Can you bring me 0:05:52.356 --> 0:05:55.556 back to that moment and how things unfolded from there? 0:05:56.756 --> 0:06:00.676 I mean, that moment was feeling like finally something was 0:06:00.716 --> 0:06:04.396 going right in my life, like finally I was getting 0:06:04.476 --> 0:06:08.396 back something that meant so much to me. Like all 0:06:08.396 --> 0:06:11.516 the other things had been taken from me were so intangible, 0:06:11.876 --> 0:06:16.436 but here was a true and tangible thing that had 0:06:16.476 --> 0:06:19.556 been taken from me and that I had gotten back. 0:06:19.956 --> 0:06:22.916 And so it truly felt like this gift and this 0:06:23.316 --> 0:06:29.476 reclamation of my life. And then to have that to 0:06:29.636 --> 0:06:32.956 you know, show up at the obgi N and to 0:06:32.996 --> 0:06:39.996 hear them say there is no heartbeat, I like, I 0:06:40.196 --> 0:06:48.916 wasn't prepared for that loss, because it had already that 0:06:48.956 --> 0:06:51.836 this was my win. You know, I was not aware 0:06:52.036 --> 0:06:54.636 of all of the statistics and how common it is 0:06:54.676 --> 0:06:56.956 to miscarry all of that, Like, I just didn't know. 0:06:57.036 --> 0:06:59.316 I had never been pregnant before, and so this is 0:06:59.356 --> 0:07:01.596 the first time I had ever been pregnant, and then 0:07:01.676 --> 0:07:06.316 for that to end in failure sent me down a 0:07:06.356 --> 0:07:11.716 spiral of fear and pair and being triggered and wondering 0:07:11.756 --> 0:07:14.636 if I was infertile because of things that had happened 0:07:14.676 --> 0:07:17.316 to me in prison and the lack of health care, 0:07:17.356 --> 0:07:20.436 Like I had no idea why it didn't work and 0:07:20.516 --> 0:07:26.716 why this being just didn't continue to be and like 0:07:27.036 --> 0:07:30.316 just that weird limbo space of like not even knowing 0:07:30.596 --> 0:07:34.876 how to grieve, and so that that was really hard. 0:07:34.916 --> 0:07:37.556 And I had this thought in my head, which is 0:07:37.596 --> 0:07:41.596 so stupid, but I thought, like, didn't I deserve to 0:07:41.676 --> 0:07:44.356 have this thing go right? Like all of these things 0:07:44.356 --> 0:07:47.996 had gone wrong in my life, why didn't this thing 0:07:48.116 --> 0:07:48.596 go right? 0:07:50.036 --> 0:07:50.396 Why? 0:07:51.116 --> 0:07:53.196 It almost felt like I was being punished again, Like 0:07:53.276 --> 0:07:56.356 why am I being punished? Like what did I do wrong? 0:07:57.076 --> 0:08:02.516 Yeah? I found so much resonance in the reaction that 0:08:02.556 --> 0:08:07.076 you had to the miscarriage, beyond your expected grief, this 0:08:07.156 --> 0:08:11.356 feeling of cosmic and justice right that since you had 0:08:11.356 --> 0:08:14.036 suffered so much in the past, the universe in some 0:08:14.156 --> 0:08:18.836 way owed you a perfect pregnancy, which is so stupid, 0:08:19.236 --> 0:08:22.716 but it is such a natural part of our psychology. 0:08:22.756 --> 0:08:25.996 I mean, there's a concept that I've been exploring lately 0:08:26.076 --> 0:08:29.196 called belief in a just world, which basically says that 0:08:30.476 --> 0:08:32.396 we get what we deserve in life, we get out 0:08:32.396 --> 0:08:34.436 what we put in. Good people get good things, bad 0:08:34.476 --> 0:08:38.316 people get bad things. And how much any one of 0:08:38.396 --> 0:08:41.836 us believes in a just world varies quite a bit. 0:08:41.996 --> 0:08:45.796 But what was so interesting to me is that you 0:08:45.916 --> 0:08:50.116 maintained your belief in this kind of justice despite everything 0:08:50.156 --> 0:08:53.236 you went through, Like you still, in this visceral way, 0:08:53.476 --> 0:08:58.836 felt that the moral scales should balance in the universe. 0:08:58.996 --> 0:09:02.716 Yeah, that's a really interesting way of framing it, because 0:09:02.716 --> 0:09:06.996 you're right, I had every reason to believe that there 0:09:07.436 --> 0:09:10.996 was no justice, and I could be absolutely cynical about reality, 0:09:11.276 --> 0:09:14.596 and of course I lost my baby. What else was 0:09:14.636 --> 0:09:16.556 I going to do? And like the fact that it 0:09:16.596 --> 0:09:21.276 really blindsided me is demonstrative of the fact that I 0:09:21.356 --> 0:09:23.916 am very, very stubbornly optimistic. 0:09:23.956 --> 0:09:25.476 In the end, I guess, yes. 0:09:25.796 --> 0:09:28.716 That's what I glean from it, for sure, because I 0:09:28.716 --> 0:09:33.476 could totally imagine having the opposite response, just one of 0:09:34.236 --> 0:09:39.596 sheer cynicism, just extreme nihilism. There's no meaning or purpose 0:09:39.756 --> 0:09:44.196 or semblance of order in the universe. And it's so 0:09:44.276 --> 0:09:47.916 funny because despite my knowledge of this concept, and despite 0:09:47.956 --> 0:09:50.516 my understanding of how irrational it is to believe this, 0:09:51.076 --> 0:09:54.436 I fall prey to this so often, even though, of 0:09:54.556 --> 0:09:57.996 course my rational brain is like, there's no such thing 0:09:58.156 --> 0:10:01.076 as being entitled to anything in this world, right, And 0:10:01.156 --> 0:10:05.356 so I just your story has so many exceptional components 0:10:05.356 --> 0:10:08.756 to it. But what I find so captivating are these 0:10:08.796 --> 0:10:11.516 themes is that emerge from your story that all of 0:10:11.596 --> 0:10:13.796 us can relate to. I mean I related to that. 0:10:13.916 --> 0:10:17.916 I related to the story that you described of wanting 0:10:17.996 --> 0:10:20.236 kids from the time that you were six or seven 0:10:20.276 --> 0:10:23.956 years old. I was having imaginary calls with my neighbors 0:10:23.996 --> 0:10:26.556 about my rambunctious kids, and then I was like, I. 0:10:26.476 --> 0:10:30.196 Loved how you were already like a jaded mom, you know, 0:10:30.236 --> 0:10:33.716 a little Bobby, such a terror Martha or whatever names 0:10:33.756 --> 0:10:37.116 I was using at the time, And it's so cute, 0:10:37.156 --> 0:10:37.836 and I'm. 0:10:37.676 --> 0:10:41.316 Curious to know. So what it was that compelled you 0:10:41.356 --> 0:10:43.916 to motherhood, Like what were your hopes and dreams? 0:10:44.236 --> 0:10:46.596 I think that it has to do with just how 0:10:46.796 --> 0:10:52.276 awesome of a mother I have. I've always felt, always, always, 0:10:52.356 --> 0:10:57.556 always that I was cradled by her, like that I 0:10:57.716 --> 0:11:02.476 was supported by her, that any time that something could 0:11:02.556 --> 0:11:04.996 ever go wrong in my life, I could turn to 0:11:05.076 --> 0:11:08.636 her and she would be there. And so I really 0:11:08.756 --> 0:11:13.036 was given a model of what an ideal mom is 0:11:13.236 --> 0:11:15.436 from a very young age, and of course that has 0:11:15.596 --> 0:11:19.236 proved itself over the course of time. My mom has 0:11:19.316 --> 0:11:23.796 been there for me and through extreme circumstances. But it 0:11:23.836 --> 0:11:28.316 all comes down to that love for another being that 0:11:29.036 --> 0:11:31.876 goes beyond any love that you could have for yourself. 0:11:31.876 --> 0:11:37.676 It is just that wholehearted embrace of another person that 0:11:38.156 --> 0:11:42.236 I just know intuitively because it was given to me 0:11:42.436 --> 0:11:43.556 from the day I was born. 0:11:44.596 --> 0:11:45.356 I wanted to do that. 0:11:45.556 --> 0:11:49.596 Wow. Yeah, it's very stirring to hear you describe that 0:11:49.676 --> 0:11:53.956 relationship and what a gift she gave you. Today, I'm 0:11:54.396 --> 0:11:57.236 so delighted to share that you're a mom to two kids. 0:11:57.436 --> 0:11:59.556 You have your daughter, Eureka, your son Echo. 0:11:59.916 --> 0:12:01.556 Yeah, I'm in the thick of it. 0:12:01.876 --> 0:12:06.036 I'm curious to know about your experience of motherhood and 0:12:06.036 --> 0:12:08.996 how it's been informed by you by the trauma that 0:12:09.196 --> 0:12:14.396 you faced. And one of the most primal instincts that 0:12:14.556 --> 0:12:18.116 parents have is to protect their children from harm and suffering. 0:12:18.196 --> 0:12:22.556 I mean, you write that your first words to Eureka 0:12:22.596 --> 0:12:25.836 after she was born, were I'm sorry, Yeah, And it 0:12:25.916 --> 0:12:28.636 was just in response to the fact that, like every newborn, 0:12:28.996 --> 0:12:31.436 she was crying, right she came out of the womb crying, 0:12:31.596 --> 0:12:35.396 and you felt that just visceral instinct to protect her 0:12:35.396 --> 0:12:40.396 from pain. And as someone who has been through so 0:12:40.556 --> 0:12:43.836 much needless suffering in your life, I want to understand 0:12:43.916 --> 0:12:47.676 how that's informed how you think about your role as 0:12:47.716 --> 0:12:49.916 a parent to both Eureka and Echo. 0:12:50.156 --> 0:12:54.636 Yeah, trauma has really interesting ways of presenting itself in 0:12:54.676 --> 0:12:58.596 your life. And I feel like grief and the processing 0:12:58.596 --> 0:13:03.156 of traumatic experiences manifest in different ways as you change 0:13:03.196 --> 0:13:05.556 and grow as a human being over time. And one 0:13:05.556 --> 0:13:08.516 of the big ways that I have been sort of 0:13:08.636 --> 0:13:14.316 forced to process everything that happened in Italy was becoming 0:13:14.356 --> 0:13:18.396 a mother and feeling that sense of urgency, like even 0:13:18.716 --> 0:13:20.596 while she I was still pregnant and she was on 0:13:20.636 --> 0:13:22.236 the way, but I'm getting bigger and bigger, and I 0:13:22.236 --> 0:13:24.156 can feel her and I know she's coming, and I'm like, 0:13:24.196 --> 0:13:27.036 oh my god. I was like thinking, like, I have 0:13:27.956 --> 0:13:31.116 all of this psychological baggage that I'm carrying with me, 0:13:31.356 --> 0:13:33.996 and the last thing I want to do is to 0:13:34.116 --> 0:13:36.876 pass that on to my daughter. So I have to 0:13:37.116 --> 0:13:40.916 figure out how do I hold my arms around that, 0:13:41.796 --> 0:13:45.596 how do I keep that to myself, and how do 0:13:45.756 --> 0:13:50.236 I try to derive something good from that? My daughter 0:13:50.316 --> 0:13:52.636 is following me in my wake, and so I'm hoping 0:13:52.636 --> 0:13:56.396 that I'm planting seeds and not just dropping garbage in 0:13:56.796 --> 0:13:59.156 my wake for her to encounter. I want those to 0:13:59.236 --> 0:14:02.436 be things that are of value, that can be of 0:14:02.516 --> 0:14:05.396 assistance to her in her life. And so I was thinking, Okay, 0:14:05.396 --> 0:14:08.156 I have to I have to figure out, I have 0:14:08.236 --> 0:14:10.956 to figure this out. This is this puzzle of my trauma. 0:14:10.996 --> 0:14:12.556 I have to figure it out, and I have to 0:14:12.556 --> 0:14:17.596 figure it out now, like yesterday, and and one of 0:14:17.636 --> 0:14:24.276 those puzzle pieces was what is the difference between pain 0:14:24.596 --> 0:14:30.636 and suffering? Because one is inevitable and the other is not. 0:14:32.076 --> 0:14:36.476 And indeed, like by giving birth to her, her first 0:14:36.556 --> 0:14:42.996 experience of the world was pain. And I felt so 0:14:44.396 --> 0:14:47.076 bad about that, Like it didn't it didn't even occur 0:14:47.116 --> 0:14:50.476 to me that that would be her first ever experience 0:14:50.596 --> 0:14:53.276 outside of the womb until it was happening. And then 0:14:53.316 --> 0:14:57.196 obviously she was being squeezed out and it was not 0:14:57.396 --> 0:15:00.796 pleasant for her, and she's coming and she's screaming and 0:15:00.836 --> 0:15:04.676 I'm just going, oh my god, I'm so sorry. Like 0:15:04.876 --> 0:15:07.956 I have given existence to you, and that existence is 0:15:07.996 --> 0:15:11.116 going to be painful, and I can't take that away. 0:15:11.516 --> 0:15:14.436 As much as I want to, like as much as 0:15:14.476 --> 0:15:17.276 I wish that I could take that pain that you're feeling, 0:15:17.356 --> 0:15:17.916 I can't. 0:15:17.996 --> 0:15:21.716 And I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. 0:15:24.076 --> 0:15:26.156 But the one thing that I do know that I 0:15:26.196 --> 0:15:30.596 can teach her is that there don't have to be 0:15:30.836 --> 0:15:33.716 layers of pain on top of the pain that we 0:15:33.756 --> 0:15:38.236 inevitably experience. There don't have to be meta experiences of 0:15:38.316 --> 0:15:41.436 pain on top of pain that make it harder to 0:15:41.516 --> 0:15:46.636 get past the immediate pain that we feel. Pain is 0:15:47.756 --> 0:15:52.236 an automatic feeling that you do not choose to feel 0:15:52.516 --> 0:15:55.596 as a result from certain things that happen. 0:15:55.796 --> 0:15:59.036 So you jam your toe in the door jam. 0:15:58.996 --> 0:16:02.596 You feel pain, or you lose someone that you love, 0:16:03.556 --> 0:16:07.236 you feel pain. Suffering is the pain of feeling that 0:16:07.276 --> 0:16:10.756 you shouldn't be feeling. That pain is when you convince 0:16:10.796 --> 0:16:14.436 yourself that the world isn't as it should be, and 0:16:14.516 --> 0:16:17.316 therefore there is a level of pain on top of 0:16:17.356 --> 0:16:20.516 the pain that cannot be resolved, and that doesn't really 0:16:20.556 --> 0:16:23.356 go away until you accept reality as it is. It 0:16:23.436 --> 0:16:27.316 is a pain that will persist because the world isn't 0:16:27.476 --> 0:16:29.236 the way that you think it should be. The world 0:16:29.316 --> 0:16:33.356 just is the way it is. And so I try 0:16:33.356 --> 0:16:39.636 to always accept the pain that just comes with being 0:16:40.356 --> 0:16:43.876 a being in the world, and to allow myself to 0:16:43.956 --> 0:16:46.516 let go of the meta levels of pain that come 0:16:46.556 --> 0:16:49.516 from me imposing my ideas about how the world should 0:16:49.556 --> 0:16:52.716 be on the way the world is and being able 0:16:52.756 --> 0:16:56.516 to demonstrate that to my daughter is one of my 0:16:56.716 --> 0:17:01.556 greatest weird silver linings to this cloud of like, Oh, 0:17:01.596 --> 0:17:06.476 I've learned a very extremely valuable skill over the course 0:17:06.516 --> 0:17:10.636 of this very extreme circumstance, which is recognize that difference 0:17:10.956 --> 0:17:12.436 and to know what to do about it. 0:17:13.076 --> 0:17:13.716 Yeah. 0:17:14.036 --> 0:17:16.556 So is it correct to say then that you see 0:17:16.636 --> 0:17:21.076 your role as a mom as not to shield your 0:17:21.156 --> 0:17:24.596 children from pain, which is inevitable and probably a vital 0:17:24.636 --> 0:17:28.236 part of growth, but instead to equip them with the 0:17:28.476 --> 0:17:32.716 cognitive tools they need to be able to differentiate between 0:17:32.836 --> 0:17:36.076 pain and suffering and to learn, in the throes of 0:17:36.116 --> 0:17:41.076 suffering how to climb their way out. Totally, you talked 0:17:41.076 --> 0:17:45.396 about yourself as being this just like unfailing optimist, right, 0:17:45.636 --> 0:17:49.556 you can almost can't help your optimism but which is 0:17:49.596 --> 0:17:53.316 a wonderful genetic disposition to have. You know, many of 0:17:53.396 --> 0:17:57.636 us form our beliefs about how the world works based 0:17:57.676 --> 0:18:03.116 on messages that we receive in childhood, right, And obviously 0:18:03.156 --> 0:18:06.716 your children will absorb messages from so many places. One 0:18:06.796 --> 0:18:10.276 day they will read your Wikipedia page, they will read 0:18:10.436 --> 0:18:15.236 the articles. But before that moment in time, what kind 0:18:15.276 --> 0:18:19.076 of philosophy are you trying to instill in your children 0:18:19.116 --> 0:18:20.996 about the kind of world they're growing up in. 0:18:21.996 --> 0:18:28.756 Oh my, that's a great question, because that's a really 0:18:28.796 --> 0:18:32.236 interesting question because I've not posed it to myself that way. 0:18:32.636 --> 0:18:37.996 I've more posed it. As you encounter hardships in your life, 0:18:38.036 --> 0:18:41.116 what do you do about them? I'm thinking of all 0:18:41.116 --> 0:18:45.196 the times that baby Echo pulls Eureka's hair and how 0:18:45.236 --> 0:18:47.756 frustrated she is by that, and I try to explain 0:18:47.796 --> 0:18:51.156 to her, like I'm going to talk to him, but 0:18:51.196 --> 0:18:54.236 I want you to know that he doesn't understand yet. 0:18:54.996 --> 0:18:57.796 And I feel like adults are like that too. 0:18:57.916 --> 0:19:01.916 Some people are just not cognitively there to acknowledge that 0:19:02.036 --> 0:19:05.636 something they've done to harm someone, even if it was unintentional, 0:19:06.396 --> 0:19:09.796 is meaningful. And you can do something about that, and 0:19:09.836 --> 0:19:13.516 you can learn from it like that that is still 0:19:13.556 --> 0:19:18.156 a skill that adults are learning to this day. And 0:19:18.396 --> 0:19:21.436 I think that maybe is a way of thinking about 0:19:21.436 --> 0:19:24.876 the world that I'm trying to impart on. Eurekas like, yes, 0:19:25.036 --> 0:19:29.116 like sometimes things happen and they shouldn't have happened, and 0:19:29.356 --> 0:19:31.636 we can do our best to try to make sure 0:19:31.676 --> 0:19:33.956 that doesn't happen. But I can't promise you that it 0:19:34.076 --> 0:19:37.516 won't because some people are not ready to learn from 0:19:37.516 --> 0:19:38.476 their mistakes yet. 0:19:40.116 --> 0:19:43.316 It is a very optimistic posture to have because you 0:19:43.436 --> 0:19:48.596 are you are allowing for redemption in everyone. You're granting 0:19:48.956 --> 0:19:53.356 people a growth mindset, essentially that there is room for 0:19:53.516 --> 0:19:57.396 that edification to happen right absolutely insight they need. 0:19:57.636 --> 0:20:00.996 I think it would be an unrealistic expectation to not 0:20:01.116 --> 0:20:05.116 expect people to grow, because I feel like we all 0:20:05.316 --> 0:20:11.276 tend to grow, especially when we encounter obstacles are hardship. 0:20:12.076 --> 0:20:15.236 I am always looking for an opportunity to grow in 0:20:15.276 --> 0:20:17.756 what happens to me, and so maybe I'm just projecting 0:20:17.796 --> 0:20:21.676 that perspective of humanity onto everyone else. 0:20:22.636 --> 0:20:26.396 With this perspective in mind, do you feel like, in 0:20:26.436 --> 0:20:29.236 your heart of hearts you can truthfully share with your 0:20:29.276 --> 0:20:34.316 children that you still believe the world is a fundamentally 0:20:34.356 --> 0:20:37.036 good place filled with fundamentally good people. 0:20:38.916 --> 0:20:41.756 Hm uh hmm. 0:20:42.756 --> 0:20:46.076 Do I believe that the world is a fundamentally good 0:20:46.236 --> 0:20:49.076 place full of fundamentally good people. 0:20:50.436 --> 0:20:52.356 I think that. 0:20:54.316 --> 0:21:02.236 Unless you're truly a psychopath, you encounter the world with 0:21:02.356 --> 0:21:07.236 the idea of wanting to do your best in it, 0:21:08.996 --> 0:21:16.996 and therefore you want to achieve not just what is 0:21:17.036 --> 0:21:19.516 good for you, but what is good for other people too. 0:21:20.116 --> 0:21:23.436 Maybe you have some people's best interests over others. But 0:21:23.556 --> 0:21:25.676 I do think that we all think of ourselves as 0:21:25.716 --> 0:21:28.956 a hero of our own story. We're all good guys 0:21:29.196 --> 0:21:32.556 in our minds, which I think lends to the intention 0:21:32.836 --> 0:21:38.516 to be a good guy, even if ultimately we trick 0:21:38.556 --> 0:21:41.796 ourselves into thinking that the bad that we're doing is good. 0:21:42.276 --> 0:21:45.156 You're saying, even for those people, there are justifications in 0:21:45.236 --> 0:21:47.356 place that at least make them think best. Yeah, I 0:21:47.356 --> 0:21:50.076 think that they're acting in alignment with their axioms. However 0:21:50.076 --> 0:21:53.316 flawed their axioms are, for example, exactly exactly so. 0:21:53.396 --> 0:21:57.076 I feel like the drive to do the right thing 0:21:57.196 --> 0:22:01.156 or be a good person is in everyone. The problem is, 0:22:01.476 --> 0:22:05.316 how is that drive manifesting itself. That is where I 0:22:05.356 --> 0:22:08.516 can't make any promises because the world is full of 0:22:08.556 --> 0:22:12.476 crazy idea and people get attached to them and then 0:22:12.516 --> 0:22:16.676 try to manifest them as an expression of trying to 0:22:16.756 --> 0:22:17.676 be a good person. 0:22:18.756 --> 0:22:22.996 Have you thought about how you plan to share your 0:22:23.116 --> 0:22:26.596 story with your kids one day and when that might be, 0:22:26.756 --> 0:22:29.916 and do you find yourself kind of rehearsing parts of 0:22:29.956 --> 0:22:31.956 it in your head, you know, as you go about 0:22:31.956 --> 0:22:33.396 your life or fall asleep at night. 0:22:33.716 --> 0:22:38.396 Well, the cats out of the bag already. 0:22:37.956 --> 0:22:40.516 Which is how old is Yureka? Now? 0:22:40.556 --> 0:22:44.956 She is three and a half, and it's coming up 0:22:45.036 --> 0:22:49.156 because a lot of the work that I do is 0:22:49.236 --> 0:22:53.916 around criminal justice reform and telling my story. I'm executive 0:22:53.916 --> 0:22:57.076 producing a Hulu show that's based upon my first memoir, 0:22:57.116 --> 0:23:00.756 Waiting to be Heard. And so my daughter, just by 0:23:00.876 --> 0:23:05.436 virtue of being around me, has become aware that there 0:23:05.596 --> 0:23:09.956 is a story, and she has asked me what is 0:23:09.996 --> 0:23:15.556 that story? And I always take this position of be 0:23:15.756 --> 0:23:20.036 honest in an age appropriate way, So I tell her 0:23:20.276 --> 0:23:24.436 a very condensed and simplified version of the story, which 0:23:24.476 --> 0:23:28.476 is when mommy was younger, Mommy went to Italy and 0:23:28.596 --> 0:23:32.796 someone hurt her friend, and then the Italian police hurt mommy, 0:23:32.916 --> 0:23:35.196 and mommy was sad for a long time and she 0:23:35.316 --> 0:23:38.676 was in jail. But then mommy was freed and mommy 0:23:38.716 --> 0:23:41.956 came home and Mommy met Papa and we fell in love, 0:23:41.996 --> 0:23:43.996 and then we had you, and now mommy's happy. 0:23:45.716 --> 0:23:49.956 Sorry. I don't mean to get emotional. Sorry, can I 0:23:50.036 --> 0:23:53.876 just say, like, I am so happy that you get 0:23:53.876 --> 0:23:55.996 to have this like as my friend. 0:23:56.436 --> 0:23:57.156 Thanks mamma. 0:23:58.116 --> 0:24:02.276 It fills me with the deepest joy that, uh, something 0:24:02.276 --> 0:24:05.516 that meant so much to you, Oh my gosh, no, 0:24:05.796 --> 0:24:08.516 thank you, something that meant so much to you is 0:24:08.556 --> 0:24:11.796 something that you you get to have in this lifetime. 0:24:11.876 --> 0:24:14.196 Like it's unspeakable joy for me. 0:24:15.276 --> 0:24:16.036 Thank you, Maya. 0:24:16.156 --> 0:24:21.476 I mean, I feel really really lucky, Like I am alive, 0:24:21.756 --> 0:24:24.276 I am healthy, I am safe, I have a home, 0:24:24.356 --> 0:24:26.676 I have a husband, I have children. Like all of 0:24:26.676 --> 0:24:30.636 the things that I thought were gone are here and 0:24:31.076 --> 0:24:37.676 I'm so lucky. So thank you for feeling that with me, though, 0:24:37.716 --> 0:24:41.676 because like it's true, it like any one of those 0:24:41.716 --> 0:24:45.476 things in a moment could have been taken away, and 0:24:46.076 --> 0:24:48.476 so that is not lost on me. 0:24:48.996 --> 0:24:55.036 Every day I wake up in the morning, We'll. 0:24:54.836 --> 0:24:57.396 Be back in a moment with a slight change of plans. 0:25:11.876 --> 0:25:15.876 The chief prosecutor in Amanda's wrongful murder conviction was a 0:25:15.916 --> 0:25:20.876 man named Giuliano Minini. From the start, Minini clung to 0:25:20.996 --> 0:25:24.716 his bizarre and unfounded theory that Amanda killed Meredith as 0:25:24.836 --> 0:25:29.716 part of a sex field satanic ritual, despite no real 0:25:29.756 --> 0:25:34.036