1 00:00:14,956 --> 00:00:23,076 Speaker 1: Pushkin hay Slight Changers. A quick heads up, This is 2 00:00:23,156 --> 00:00:26,596 Speaker 1: part two of my conversation with Amanda Knox. If you 3 00:00:26,636 --> 00:00:29,236 Speaker 1: haven't listened to part one, we released it in the 4 00:00:29,236 --> 00:00:32,476 Speaker 1: Feed last week. I highly recommend you go back and listen. 5 00:00:32,876 --> 00:00:35,956 Speaker 1: You won't want to miss the full story. Okay, now 6 00:00:35,956 --> 00:00:36,636 Speaker 1: onto the show. 7 00:00:47,276 --> 00:00:49,236 Speaker 2: I have all of. 8 00:00:49,116 --> 00:00:52,596 Speaker 3: This psychological baggage that I'm carrying with me, and the 9 00:00:52,756 --> 00:00:55,316 Speaker 3: last thing I want to do is to pass that 10 00:00:55,436 --> 00:00:57,836 Speaker 3: on to my daughter. So I have to figure this out. 11 00:00:58,036 --> 00:01:00,476 Speaker 3: Is this puzzle of my trauma. I have to figure 12 00:01:00,516 --> 00:01:02,156 Speaker 3: it out, and I have to figure it out. 13 00:01:02,556 --> 00:01:04,436 Speaker 2: Now, like yesterday. 14 00:01:05,236 --> 00:01:08,636 Speaker 1: Amanda Knox has spent a decade trying to move on 15 00:01:08,756 --> 00:01:12,276 Speaker 1: from the worst thing that ever happened to her, being 16 00:01:12,316 --> 00:01:17,116 Speaker 1: wrongfully convicted of murder, and she's felt haunted by one question, 17 00:01:17,276 --> 00:01:22,876 Speaker 1: in particular, why why was the lead prosecutor, Giuliano Mignini 18 00:01:23,356 --> 00:01:25,196 Speaker 1: so determined to vilify her? 19 00:01:25,836 --> 00:01:33,716 Speaker 3: I couldn't understand how like very immediately, like from day one, 20 00:01:33,756 --> 00:01:38,156 Speaker 3: people and particularly Giuliano Mignini, saw guilt in me that 21 00:01:38,316 --> 00:01:42,596 Speaker 3: wasn't there, And I realized that the only way to 22 00:01:42,716 --> 00:01:50,516 Speaker 3: truly understand was to ask him. 23 00:01:50,676 --> 00:01:54,316 Speaker 1: On today's show Amanda confronts the man who helped put 24 00:01:54,316 --> 00:01:59,716 Speaker 1: her behind bars. I'm Maya Shunker, a scientist who studies 25 00:01:59,796 --> 00:02:03,156 Speaker 1: human behavior, and this is a slight change of plans, 26 00:02:03,516 --> 00:02:05,796 Speaker 1: a show about who we are and who we become 27 00:02:06,076 --> 00:02:16,276 Speaker 1: in the face of a big change. It is shocking 28 00:02:16,356 --> 00:02:19,956 Speaker 1: to me how many people still believe Amanda Knox is 29 00:02:19,996 --> 00:02:24,636 Speaker 1: guilty of murder, despite the lack of forensic evidence. The 30 00:02:24,676 --> 00:02:28,036 Speaker 1: real killer was identified and sentenced in two thousand and 31 00:02:28,036 --> 00:02:31,836 Speaker 1: eight after his DNA was discovered all over the body 32 00:02:31,876 --> 00:02:36,276 Speaker 1: of the victim, Meredith Kircher. Meredith was Amanda's roommate at 33 00:02:36,276 --> 00:02:40,956 Speaker 1: the time. Amanda was initially sentenced to twenty six years 34 00:02:40,996 --> 00:02:44,596 Speaker 1: in an Italian prison, and she spent nearly four years 35 00:02:44,596 --> 00:02:49,076 Speaker 1: behind bars before being acquitted on appeal. But even after 36 00:02:49,196 --> 00:02:53,196 Speaker 1: Amanda's release, after she returned to the US, the prosecution 37 00:02:53,436 --> 00:02:57,556 Speaker 1: continued to pursue her, and at one point they reconvicted her. 38 00:02:58,476 --> 00:03:03,156 Speaker 1: After a painful multi year legal battle, Amanda was finally 39 00:03:03,236 --> 00:03:08,956 Speaker 1: definitively exonerated in twenty fifteen by Italy's highest court. The 40 00:03:09,276 --> 00:03:13,156 Speaker 1: years of public vilification and fear have taken a massive 41 00:03:13,236 --> 00:03:17,436 Speaker 1: emotional toll on Amanda and recently, she made a bold 42 00:03:17,476 --> 00:03:21,276 Speaker 1: and surprising decision to reach back out to her prosecutor. 43 00:03:21,996 --> 00:03:24,956 Speaker 1: I wanted to know why. She told me part of 44 00:03:24,996 --> 00:03:27,836 Speaker 1: it had to do with becoming a mom and wanting 45 00:03:27,836 --> 00:03:31,356 Speaker 1: to unpack her trauma for the sake of her young children. 46 00:03:31,796 --> 00:03:34,516 Speaker 1: We started our conversation by going back to the moment 47 00:03:34,636 --> 00:03:37,996 Speaker 1: she received her initial prison sentence at age twenty two 48 00:03:38,796 --> 00:03:41,196 Speaker 1: and what it all meant for her long held dream 49 00:03:41,396 --> 00:03:42,796 Speaker 1: of one day having a family. 50 00:03:43,836 --> 00:03:46,516 Speaker 3: The minute they handed down that twenty six year sentence 51 00:03:46,556 --> 00:03:49,236 Speaker 3: to me, I did the math, and I knew what 52 00:03:49,436 --> 00:03:51,796 Speaker 3: my body was capable of and what it was not 53 00:03:51,876 --> 00:03:55,796 Speaker 3: capable of, and I reasoned that I had not just 54 00:03:55,836 --> 00:03:59,116 Speaker 3: been condemned to prison time. I had been condemned to infertility, 55 00:03:59,556 --> 00:04:03,516 Speaker 3: which was devastating for me because I had always wanted 56 00:04:03,516 --> 00:04:05,916 Speaker 3: to be a mom, Like my mom made me sign 57 00:04:05,996 --> 00:04:09,596 Speaker 3: a contract in Green cran when I was like six 58 00:04:09,756 --> 00:04:12,076 Speaker 3: or seven years old, because I was already talking about 59 00:04:12,276 --> 00:04:14,516 Speaker 3: wanting to be a mom, and as a very young 60 00:04:14,636 --> 00:04:17,236 Speaker 3: single mom, she was like, I'm gonna make you sign 61 00:04:17,276 --> 00:04:19,596 Speaker 3: a contract that says you're gonna wait until you're thirty 62 00:04:19,876 --> 00:04:22,796 Speaker 3: to be a mom, because I seriously. 63 00:04:22,396 --> 00:04:23,876 Speaker 2: Like already like six or seven. 64 00:04:23,956 --> 00:04:25,316 Speaker 3: I was like, I can't wait to be a mom, 65 00:04:25,316 --> 00:04:30,516 Speaker 3: and she's like, will see so yeah, So to be 66 00:04:30,636 --> 00:04:35,236 Speaker 3: given the opportunity to like get out of prison as 67 00:04:35,316 --> 00:04:38,196 Speaker 3: a young person, still within my fertile years, I was 68 00:04:38,236 --> 00:04:40,876 Speaker 3: still up against a huge challenge, right Like I was 69 00:04:40,916 --> 00:04:44,316 Speaker 3: still the girl accused of murder, which felt very, very 70 00:04:44,396 --> 00:04:47,996 Speaker 3: ostracizing and very limiting to me at that point, and 71 00:04:48,116 --> 00:04:51,236 Speaker 3: so I still was at a loss of how I 72 00:04:51,316 --> 00:04:53,076 Speaker 3: was going to be able to have a family and 73 00:04:53,116 --> 00:04:56,876 Speaker 3: have a career and be a mom, Like, who would 74 00:04:56,876 --> 00:05:00,396 Speaker 3: ever want to date Amanda Knox with all the baggage 75 00:05:00,436 --> 00:05:03,756 Speaker 3: that comes with it. I was estranged from the world. 76 00:05:03,916 --> 00:05:07,036 Speaker 3: And then I got very, very lucky. In twenty fifteen, 77 00:05:07,396 --> 00:05:11,356 Speaker 3: I met for the first time my husband, and to 78 00:05:11,596 --> 00:05:16,796 Speaker 3: Chris's credit, he did not allow himself to be influenced 79 00:05:16,836 --> 00:05:18,756 Speaker 3: by all of the crap that was said about me 80 00:05:18,836 --> 00:05:20,996 Speaker 3: in the world. And I'm so grateful to him, because 81 00:05:20,996 --> 00:05:22,836 Speaker 3: if you really want to go down that Amanda Knox 82 00:05:22,876 --> 00:05:25,596 Speaker 3: rabbit hole, you can find whatever you want, and it's 83 00:05:25,716 --> 00:05:26,516 Speaker 3: very scandalous. 84 00:05:26,556 --> 00:05:28,356 Speaker 2: Here's a lot. And so he's. 85 00:05:28,156 --> 00:05:34,116 Speaker 3: Always been very mindful of being respectful of my humanity, 86 00:05:34,156 --> 00:05:36,916 Speaker 3: and allowing me to be the one to share with 87 00:05:37,036 --> 00:05:40,996 Speaker 3: him those moments of extreme life that I have lived. 88 00:05:41,756 --> 00:05:45,076 Speaker 1: So you and Chris get married, and you start trying 89 00:05:45,116 --> 00:05:48,396 Speaker 1: to have children, and then one day you find yourself 90 00:05:48,436 --> 00:05:52,236 Speaker 1: staring at a positive pregnancy test. Can you bring me 91 00:05:52,356 --> 00:05:55,556 Speaker 1: back to that moment and how things unfolded from there? 92 00:05:56,756 --> 00:06:00,676 Speaker 3: I mean, that moment was feeling like finally something was 93 00:06:00,716 --> 00:06:04,396 Speaker 3: going right in my life, like finally I was getting 94 00:06:04,476 --> 00:06:08,396 Speaker 3: back something that meant so much to me. Like all 95 00:06:08,396 --> 00:06:11,516 Speaker 3: the other things had been taken from me were so intangible, 96 00:06:11,876 --> 00:06:16,436 Speaker 3: but here was a true and tangible thing that had 97 00:06:16,476 --> 00:06:19,556 Speaker 3: been taken from me and that I had gotten back. 98 00:06:19,956 --> 00:06:22,916 Speaker 3: And so it truly felt like this gift and this 99 00:06:23,316 --> 00:06:29,476 Speaker 3: reclamation of my life. And then to have that to 100 00:06:29,636 --> 00:06:32,956 Speaker 3: you know, show up at the obgi N and to 101 00:06:32,996 --> 00:06:39,996 Speaker 3: hear them say there is no heartbeat, I like, I 102 00:06:40,196 --> 00:06:48,916 Speaker 3: wasn't prepared for that loss, because it had already that 103 00:06:48,956 --> 00:06:51,836 Speaker 3: this was my win. You know, I was not aware 104 00:06:52,036 --> 00:06:54,636 Speaker 3: of all of the statistics and how common it is 105 00:06:54,676 --> 00:06:56,956 Speaker 3: to miscarry all of that, Like, I just didn't know. 106 00:06:57,036 --> 00:06:59,316 Speaker 3: I had never been pregnant before, and so this is 107 00:06:59,356 --> 00:07:01,596 Speaker 3: the first time I had ever been pregnant, and then 108 00:07:01,676 --> 00:07:06,316 Speaker 3: for that to end in failure sent me down a 109 00:07:06,356 --> 00:07:11,716 Speaker 3: spiral of fear and pair and being triggered and wondering 110 00:07:11,756 --> 00:07:14,636 Speaker 3: if I was infertile because of things that had happened 111 00:07:14,676 --> 00:07:17,316 Speaker 3: to me in prison and the lack of health care, 112 00:07:17,356 --> 00:07:20,436 Speaker 3: Like I had no idea why it didn't work and 113 00:07:20,516 --> 00:07:26,716 Speaker 3: why this being just didn't continue to be and like 114 00:07:27,036 --> 00:07:30,316 Speaker 3: just that weird limbo space of like not even knowing 115 00:07:30,596 --> 00:07:34,876 Speaker 3: how to grieve, and so that that was really hard. 116 00:07:34,916 --> 00:07:37,556 Speaker 3: And I had this thought in my head, which is 117 00:07:37,596 --> 00:07:41,596 Speaker 3: so stupid, but I thought, like, didn't I deserve to 118 00:07:41,676 --> 00:07:44,356 Speaker 3: have this thing go right? Like all of these things 119 00:07:44,356 --> 00:07:47,996 Speaker 3: had gone wrong in my life, why didn't this thing 120 00:07:48,116 --> 00:07:48,596 Speaker 3: go right? 121 00:07:50,036 --> 00:07:50,396 Speaker 2: Why? 122 00:07:51,116 --> 00:07:53,196 Speaker 3: It almost felt like I was being punished again, Like 123 00:07:53,276 --> 00:07:56,356 Speaker 3: why am I being punished? Like what did I do wrong? 124 00:07:57,076 --> 00:08:02,516 Speaker 1: Yeah? I found so much resonance in the reaction that 125 00:08:02,556 --> 00:08:07,076 Speaker 1: you had to the miscarriage, beyond your expected grief, this 126 00:08:07,156 --> 00:08:11,356 Speaker 1: feeling of cosmic and justice right that since you had 127 00:08:11,356 --> 00:08:14,036 Speaker 1: suffered so much in the past, the universe in some 128 00:08:14,156 --> 00:08:18,836 Speaker 1: way owed you a perfect pregnancy, which is so stupid, 129 00:08:19,236 --> 00:08:22,716 Speaker 1: but it is such a natural part of our psychology. 130 00:08:22,756 --> 00:08:25,996 Speaker 1: I mean, there's a concept that I've been exploring lately 131 00:08:26,076 --> 00:08:29,196 Speaker 1: called belief in a just world, which basically says that 132 00:08:30,476 --> 00:08:32,396 Speaker 1: we get what we deserve in life, we get out 133 00:08:32,396 --> 00:08:34,436 Speaker 1: what we put in. Good people get good things, bad 134 00:08:34,476 --> 00:08:38,316 Speaker 1: people get bad things. And how much any one of 135 00:08:38,396 --> 00:08:41,836 Speaker 1: us believes in a just world varies quite a bit. 136 00:08:41,996 --> 00:08:45,796 Speaker 1: But what was so interesting to me is that you 137 00:08:45,916 --> 00:08:50,116 Speaker 1: maintained your belief in this kind of justice despite everything 138 00:08:50,156 --> 00:08:53,236 Speaker 1: you went through, Like you still, in this visceral way, 139 00:08:53,476 --> 00:08:58,836 Speaker 1: felt that the moral scales should balance in the universe. 140 00:08:58,996 --> 00:09:02,716 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a really interesting way of framing it, because 141 00:09:02,716 --> 00:09:06,996 Speaker 3: you're right, I had every reason to believe that there 142 00:09:07,436 --> 00:09:10,996 Speaker 3: was no justice, and I could be absolutely cynical about reality, 143 00:09:11,276 --> 00:09:14,596 Speaker 3: and of course I lost my baby. What else was 144 00:09:14,636 --> 00:09:16,556 Speaker 3: I going to do? And like the fact that it 145 00:09:16,596 --> 00:09:21,276 Speaker 3: really blindsided me is demonstrative of the fact that I 146 00:09:21,356 --> 00:09:23,916 Speaker 3: am very, very stubbornly optimistic. 147 00:09:23,956 --> 00:09:25,476 Speaker 2: In the end, I guess, yes. 148 00:09:25,796 --> 00:09:28,716 Speaker 1: That's what I glean from it, for sure, because I 149 00:09:28,716 --> 00:09:33,476 Speaker 1: could totally imagine having the opposite response, just one of 150 00:09:34,236 --> 00:09:39,596 Speaker 1: sheer cynicism, just extreme nihilism. There's no meaning or purpose 151 00:09:39,756 --> 00:09:44,196 Speaker 1: or semblance of order in the universe. And it's so 152 00:09:44,276 --> 00:09:47,916 Speaker 1: funny because despite my knowledge of this concept, and despite 153 00:09:47,956 --> 00:09:50,516 Speaker 1: my understanding of how irrational it is to believe this, 154 00:09:51,076 --> 00:09:54,436 Speaker 1: I fall prey to this so often, even though, of 155 00:09:54,556 --> 00:09:57,996 Speaker 1: course my rational brain is like, there's no such thing 156 00:09:58,156 --> 00:10:01,076 Speaker 1: as being entitled to anything in this world, right, And 157 00:10:01,156 --> 00:10:05,356 Speaker 1: so I just your story has so many exceptional components 158 00:10:05,356 --> 00:10:08,756 Speaker 1: to it. But what I find so captivating are these 159 00:10:08,796 --> 00:10:11,516 Speaker 1: themes is that emerge from your story that all of 160 00:10:11,596 --> 00:10:13,796 Speaker 1: us can relate to. I mean I related to that. 161 00:10:13,916 --> 00:10:17,916 Speaker 1: I related to the story that you described of wanting 162 00:10:17,996 --> 00:10:20,236 Speaker 1: kids from the time that you were six or seven 163 00:10:20,276 --> 00:10:23,956 Speaker 1: years old. I was having imaginary calls with my neighbors 164 00:10:23,996 --> 00:10:26,556 Speaker 1: about my rambunctious kids, and then I was like, I. 165 00:10:26,476 --> 00:10:30,196 Speaker 4: Loved how you were already like a jaded mom, you know, 166 00:10:30,236 --> 00:10:33,716 Speaker 4: a little Bobby, such a terror Martha or whatever names 167 00:10:33,756 --> 00:10:37,116 Speaker 4: I was using at the time, And it's so cute, 168 00:10:37,156 --> 00:10:37,836 Speaker 4: and I'm. 169 00:10:37,676 --> 00:10:41,316 Speaker 1: Curious to know. So what it was that compelled you 170 00:10:41,356 --> 00:10:43,916 Speaker 1: to motherhood, Like what were your hopes and dreams? 171 00:10:44,236 --> 00:10:46,596 Speaker 3: I think that it has to do with just how 172 00:10:46,796 --> 00:10:52,276 Speaker 3: awesome of a mother I have. I've always felt, always, always, 173 00:10:52,356 --> 00:10:57,556 Speaker 3: always that I was cradled by her, like that I 174 00:10:57,716 --> 00:11:02,476 Speaker 3: was supported by her, that any time that something could 175 00:11:02,556 --> 00:11:04,996 Speaker 3: ever go wrong in my life, I could turn to 176 00:11:05,076 --> 00:11:08,636 Speaker 3: her and she would be there. And so I really 177 00:11:08,756 --> 00:11:13,036 Speaker 3: was given a model of what an ideal mom is 178 00:11:13,236 --> 00:11:15,436 Speaker 3: from a very young age, and of course that has 179 00:11:15,596 --> 00:11:19,236 Speaker 3: proved itself over the course of time. My mom has 180 00:11:19,316 --> 00:11:23,796 Speaker 3: been there for me and through extreme circumstances. But it 181 00:11:23,836 --> 00:11:28,316 Speaker 3: all comes down to that love for another being that 182 00:11:29,036 --> 00:11:31,876 Speaker 3: goes beyond any love that you could have for yourself. 183 00:11:31,876 --> 00:11:37,676 Speaker 3: It is just that wholehearted embrace of another person that 184 00:11:38,156 --> 00:11:42,236 Speaker 3: I just know intuitively because it was given to me 185 00:11:42,436 --> 00:11:43,556 Speaker 3: from the day I was born. 186 00:11:44,596 --> 00:11:45,356 Speaker 2: I wanted to do that. 187 00:11:45,556 --> 00:11:49,596 Speaker 1: Wow. Yeah, it's very stirring to hear you describe that 188 00:11:49,676 --> 00:11:53,956 Speaker 1: relationship and what a gift she gave you. Today, I'm 189 00:11:54,396 --> 00:11:57,236 Speaker 1: so delighted to share that you're a mom to two kids. 190 00:11:57,436 --> 00:11:59,556 Speaker 1: You have your daughter, Eureka, your son Echo. 191 00:11:59,916 --> 00:12:01,556 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm in the thick of it. 192 00:12:01,876 --> 00:12:06,036 Speaker 1: I'm curious to know about your experience of motherhood and 193 00:12:06,036 --> 00:12:08,996 Speaker 1: how it's been informed by you by the trauma that 194 00:12:09,196 --> 00:12:14,396 Speaker 1: you faced. And one of the most primal instincts that 195 00:12:14,556 --> 00:12:18,116 Speaker 1: parents have is to protect their children from harm and suffering. 196 00:12:18,196 --> 00:12:22,556 Speaker 1: I mean, you write that your first words to Eureka 197 00:12:22,596 --> 00:12:25,836 Speaker 1: after she was born, were I'm sorry, Yeah, And it 198 00:12:25,916 --> 00:12:28,636 Speaker 1: was just in response to the fact that, like every newborn, 199 00:12:28,996 --> 00:12:31,436 Speaker 1: she was crying, right she came out of the womb crying, 200 00:12:31,596 --> 00:12:35,396 Speaker 1: and you felt that just visceral instinct to protect her 201 00:12:35,396 --> 00:12:40,396 Speaker 1: from pain. And as someone who has been through so 202 00:12:40,556 --> 00:12:43,836 Speaker 1: much needless suffering in your life, I want to understand 203 00:12:43,916 --> 00:12:47,676 Speaker 1: how that's informed how you think about your role as 204 00:12:47,716 --> 00:12:49,916 Speaker 1: a parent to both Eureka and Echo. 205 00:12:50,156 --> 00:12:54,636 Speaker 3: Yeah, trauma has really interesting ways of presenting itself in 206 00:12:54,676 --> 00:12:58,596 Speaker 3: your life. And I feel like grief and the processing 207 00:12:58,596 --> 00:13:03,156 Speaker 3: of traumatic experiences manifest in different ways as you change 208 00:13:03,196 --> 00:13:05,556 Speaker 3: and grow as a human being over time. And one 209 00:13:05,556 --> 00:13:08,516 Speaker 3: of the big ways that I have been sort of 210 00:13:08,636 --> 00:13:14,316 Speaker 3: forced to process everything that happened in Italy was becoming 211 00:13:14,356 --> 00:13:18,396 Speaker 3: a mother and feeling that sense of urgency, like even 212 00:13:18,716 --> 00:13:20,596 Speaker 3: while she I was still pregnant and she was on 213 00:13:20,636 --> 00:13:22,236 Speaker 3: the way, but I'm getting bigger and bigger, and I 214 00:13:22,236 --> 00:13:24,156 Speaker 3: can feel her and I know she's coming, and I'm like, 215 00:13:24,196 --> 00:13:27,036 Speaker 3: oh my god. I was like thinking, like, I have 216 00:13:27,956 --> 00:13:31,116 Speaker 3: all of this psychological baggage that I'm carrying with me, 217 00:13:31,356 --> 00:13:33,996 Speaker 3: and the last thing I want to do is to 218 00:13:34,116 --> 00:13:36,876 Speaker 3: pass that on to my daughter. So I have to 219 00:13:37,116 --> 00:13:40,916 Speaker 3: figure out how do I hold my arms around that, 220 00:13:41,796 --> 00:13:45,596 Speaker 3: how do I keep that to myself, and how do 221 00:13:45,756 --> 00:13:50,236 Speaker 3: I try to derive something good from that? My daughter 222 00:13:50,316 --> 00:13:52,636 Speaker 3: is following me in my wake, and so I'm hoping 223 00:13:52,636 --> 00:13:56,396 Speaker 3: that I'm planting seeds and not just dropping garbage in 224 00:13:56,796 --> 00:13:59,156 Speaker 3: my wake for her to encounter. I want those to 225 00:13:59,236 --> 00:14:02,436 Speaker 3: be things that are of value, that can be of 226 00:14:02,516 --> 00:14:05,396 Speaker 3: assistance to her in her life. And so I was thinking, Okay, 227 00:14:05,396 --> 00:14:08,156 Speaker 3: I have to I have to figure out, I have 228 00:14:08,236 --> 00:14:10,956 Speaker 3: to figure this out. This is this puzzle of my trauma. 229 00:14:10,996 --> 00:14:12,556 Speaker 3: I have to figure it out, and I have to 230 00:14:12,556 --> 00:14:17,596 Speaker 3: figure it out now, like yesterday, and and one of 231 00:14:17,636 --> 00:14:24,276 Speaker 3: those puzzle pieces was what is the difference between pain 232 00:14:24,596 --> 00:14:30,636 Speaker 3: and suffering? Because one is inevitable and the other is not. 233 00:14:32,076 --> 00:14:36,476 Speaker 3: And indeed, like by giving birth to her, her first 234 00:14:36,556 --> 00:14:42,996 Speaker 3: experience of the world was pain. And I felt so 235 00:14:44,396 --> 00:14:47,076 Speaker 3: bad about that, Like it didn't it didn't even occur 236 00:14:47,116 --> 00:14:50,476 Speaker 3: to me that that would be her first ever experience 237 00:14:50,596 --> 00:14:53,276 Speaker 3: outside of the womb until it was happening. And then 238 00:14:53,316 --> 00:14:57,196 Speaker 3: obviously she was being squeezed out and it was not 239 00:14:57,396 --> 00:15:00,796 Speaker 3: pleasant for her, and she's coming and she's screaming and 240 00:15:00,836 --> 00:15:04,676 Speaker 3: I'm just going, oh my god, I'm so sorry. Like 241 00:15:04,876 --> 00:15:07,956 Speaker 3: I have given existence to you, and that existence is 242 00:15:07,996 --> 00:15:11,116 Speaker 3: going to be painful, and I can't take that away. 243 00:15:11,516 --> 00:15:14,436 Speaker 3: As much as I want to, like as much as 244 00:15:14,476 --> 00:15:17,276 Speaker 3: I wish that I could take that pain that you're feeling, 245 00:15:17,356 --> 00:15:17,916 Speaker 3: I can't. 246 00:15:17,996 --> 00:15:21,716 Speaker 2: And I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. 247 00:15:24,076 --> 00:15:26,156 Speaker 3: But the one thing that I do know that I 248 00:15:26,196 --> 00:15:30,596 Speaker 3: can teach her is that there don't have to be 249 00:15:30,836 --> 00:15:33,716 Speaker 3: layers of pain on top of the pain that we 250 00:15:33,756 --> 00:15:38,236 Speaker 3: inevitably experience. There don't have to be meta experiences of 251 00:15:38,316 --> 00:15:41,436 Speaker 3: pain on top of pain that make it harder to 252 00:15:41,516 --> 00:15:46,636 Speaker 3: get past the immediate pain that we feel. Pain is 253 00:15:47,756 --> 00:15:52,236 Speaker 3: an automatic feeling that you do not choose to feel 254 00:15:52,516 --> 00:15:55,596 Speaker 3: as a result from certain things that happen. 255 00:15:55,796 --> 00:15:59,036 Speaker 2: So you jam your toe in the door jam. 256 00:15:58,996 --> 00:16:02,596 Speaker 3: You feel pain, or you lose someone that you love, 257 00:16:03,556 --> 00:16:07,236 Speaker 3: you feel pain. Suffering is the pain of feeling that 258 00:16:07,276 --> 00:16:10,756 Speaker 3: you shouldn't be feeling. That pain is when you convince 259 00:16:10,796 --> 00:16:14,436 Speaker 3: yourself that the world isn't as it should be, and 260 00:16:14,516 --> 00:16:17,316 Speaker 3: therefore there is a level of pain on top of 261 00:16:17,356 --> 00:16:20,516 Speaker 3: the pain that cannot be resolved, and that doesn't really 262 00:16:20,556 --> 00:16:23,356 Speaker 3: go away until you accept reality as it is. It 263 00:16:23,436 --> 00:16:27,316 Speaker 3: is a pain that will persist because the world isn't 264 00:16:27,476 --> 00:16:29,236 Speaker 3: the way that you think it should be. The world 265 00:16:29,316 --> 00:16:33,356 Speaker 3: just is the way it is. And so I try 266 00:16:33,356 --> 00:16:39,636 Speaker 3: to always accept the pain that just comes with being 267 00:16:40,356 --> 00:16:43,876 Speaker 3: a being in the world, and to allow myself to 268 00:16:43,956 --> 00:16:46,516 Speaker 3: let go of the meta levels of pain that come 269 00:16:46,556 --> 00:16:49,516 Speaker 3: from me imposing my ideas about how the world should 270 00:16:49,556 --> 00:16:52,716 Speaker 3: be on the way the world is and being able 271 00:16:52,756 --> 00:16:56,516 Speaker 3: to demonstrate that to my daughter is one of my 272 00:16:56,716 --> 00:17:01,556 Speaker 3: greatest weird silver linings to this cloud of like, Oh, 273 00:17:01,596 --> 00:17:06,476 Speaker 3: I've learned a very extremely valuable skill over the course 274 00:17:06,516 --> 00:17:10,636 Speaker 3: of this very extreme circumstance, which is recognize that difference 275 00:17:10,956 --> 00:17:12,436 Speaker 3: and to know what to do about it. 276 00:17:13,076 --> 00:17:13,716 Speaker 5: Yeah. 277 00:17:14,036 --> 00:17:16,556 Speaker 1: So is it correct to say then that you see 278 00:17:16,636 --> 00:17:21,076 Speaker 1: your role as a mom as not to shield your 279 00:17:21,156 --> 00:17:24,596 Speaker 1: children from pain, which is inevitable and probably a vital 280 00:17:24,636 --> 00:17:28,236 Speaker 1: part of growth, but instead to equip them with the 281 00:17:28,476 --> 00:17:32,716 Speaker 1: cognitive tools they need to be able to differentiate between 282 00:17:32,836 --> 00:17:36,076 Speaker 1: pain and suffering and to learn, in the throes of 283 00:17:36,116 --> 00:17:41,076 Speaker 1: suffering how to climb their way out. Totally, you talked 284 00:17:41,076 --> 00:17:45,396 Speaker 1: about yourself as being this just like unfailing optimist, right, 285 00:17:45,636 --> 00:17:49,556 Speaker 1: you can almost can't help your optimism but which is 286 00:17:49,596 --> 00:17:53,316 Speaker 1: a wonderful genetic disposition to have. You know, many of 287 00:17:53,396 --> 00:17:57,636 Speaker 1: us form our beliefs about how the world works based 288 00:17:57,676 --> 00:18:03,116 Speaker 1: on messages that we receive in childhood, right, And obviously 289 00:18:03,156 --> 00:18:06,716 Speaker 1: your children will absorb messages from so many places. One 290 00:18:06,796 --> 00:18:10,276 Speaker 1: day they will read your Wikipedia page, they will read 291 00:18:10,436 --> 00:18:15,236 Speaker 1: the articles. But before that moment in time, what kind 292 00:18:15,276 --> 00:18:19,076 Speaker 1: of philosophy are you trying to instill in your children 293 00:18:19,116 --> 00:18:20,996 Speaker 1: about the kind of world they're growing up in. 294 00:18:21,996 --> 00:18:28,756 Speaker 3: Oh my, that's a great question, because that's a really 295 00:18:28,796 --> 00:18:32,236 Speaker 3: interesting question because I've not posed it to myself that way. 296 00:18:32,636 --> 00:18:37,996 Speaker 3: I've more posed it. As you encounter hardships in your life, 297 00:18:38,036 --> 00:18:41,116 Speaker 3: what do you do about them? I'm thinking of all 298 00:18:41,116 --> 00:18:45,196 Speaker 3: the times that baby Echo pulls Eureka's hair and how 299 00:18:45,236 --> 00:18:47,756 Speaker 3: frustrated she is by that, and I try to explain 300 00:18:47,796 --> 00:18:51,156 Speaker 3: to her, like I'm going to talk to him, but 301 00:18:51,196 --> 00:18:54,236 Speaker 3: I want you to know that he doesn't understand yet. 302 00:18:54,996 --> 00:18:57,796 Speaker 2: And I feel like adults are like that too. 303 00:18:57,916 --> 00:19:01,916 Speaker 3: Some people are just not cognitively there to acknowledge that 304 00:19:02,036 --> 00:19:05,636 Speaker 3: something they've done to harm someone, even if it was unintentional, 305 00:19:06,396 --> 00:19:09,796 Speaker 3: is meaningful. And you can do something about that, and 306 00:19:09,836 --> 00:19:13,516 Speaker 3: you can learn from it like that that is still 307 00:19:13,556 --> 00:19:18,156 Speaker 3: a skill that adults are learning to this day. And 308 00:19:18,396 --> 00:19:21,436 Speaker 3: I think that maybe is a way of thinking about 309 00:19:21,436 --> 00:19:24,876 Speaker 3: the world that I'm trying to impart on. Eurekas like, yes, 310 00:19:25,036 --> 00:19:29,116 Speaker 3: like sometimes things happen and they shouldn't have happened, and 311 00:19:29,356 --> 00:19:31,636 Speaker 3: we can do our best to try to make sure 312 00:19:31,676 --> 00:19:33,956 Speaker 3: that doesn't happen. But I can't promise you that it 313 00:19:34,076 --> 00:19:37,516 Speaker 3: won't because some people are not ready to learn from 314 00:19:37,516 --> 00:19:38,476 Speaker 3: their mistakes yet. 315 00:19:40,116 --> 00:19:43,316 Speaker 1: It is a very optimistic posture to have because you 316 00:19:43,436 --> 00:19:48,596 Speaker 1: are you are allowing for redemption in everyone. You're granting 317 00:19:48,956 --> 00:19:53,356 Speaker 1: people a growth mindset, essentially that there is room for 318 00:19:53,516 --> 00:19:57,396 Speaker 1: that edification to happen right absolutely insight they need. 319 00:19:57,636 --> 00:20:00,996 Speaker 3: I think it would be an unrealistic expectation to not 320 00:20:01,116 --> 00:20:05,116 Speaker 3: expect people to grow, because I feel like we all 321 00:20:05,316 --> 00:20:11,276 Speaker 3: tend to grow, especially when we encounter obstacles are hardship. 322 00:20:12,076 --> 00:20:15,236 Speaker 3: I am always looking for an opportunity to grow in 323 00:20:15,276 --> 00:20:17,756 Speaker 3: what happens to me, and so maybe I'm just projecting 324 00:20:17,796 --> 00:20:21,676 Speaker 3: that perspective of humanity onto everyone else. 325 00:20:22,636 --> 00:20:26,396 Speaker 1: With this perspective in mind, do you feel like, in 326 00:20:26,436 --> 00:20:29,236 Speaker 1: your heart of hearts you can truthfully share with your 327 00:20:29,276 --> 00:20:34,316 Speaker 1: children that you still believe the world is a fundamentally 328 00:20:34,356 --> 00:20:37,036 Speaker 1: good place filled with fundamentally good people. 329 00:20:38,916 --> 00:20:41,756 Speaker 2: Hm uh hmm. 330 00:20:42,756 --> 00:20:46,076 Speaker 3: Do I believe that the world is a fundamentally good 331 00:20:46,236 --> 00:20:49,076 Speaker 3: place full of fundamentally good people. 332 00:20:50,436 --> 00:20:52,356 Speaker 2: I think that. 333 00:20:54,316 --> 00:21:02,236 Speaker 3: Unless you're truly a psychopath, you encounter the world with 334 00:21:02,356 --> 00:21:07,236 Speaker 3: the idea of wanting to do your best in it, 335 00:21:08,996 --> 00:21:16,996 Speaker 3: and therefore you want to achieve not just what is 336 00:21:17,036 --> 00:21:19,516 Speaker 3: good for you, but what is good for other people too. 337 00:21:20,116 --> 00:21:23,436 Speaker 3: Maybe you have some people's best interests over others. But 338 00:21:23,556 --> 00:21:25,676 Speaker 3: I do think that we all think of ourselves as 339 00:21:25,716 --> 00:21:28,956 Speaker 3: a hero of our own story. We're all good guys 340 00:21:29,196 --> 00:21:32,556 Speaker 3: in our minds, which I think lends to the intention 341 00:21:32,836 --> 00:21:38,516 Speaker 3: to be a good guy, even if ultimately we trick 342 00:21:38,556 --> 00:21:41,796 Speaker 3: ourselves into thinking that the bad that we're doing is good. 343 00:21:42,276 --> 00:21:45,156 Speaker 1: You're saying, even for those people, there are justifications in 344 00:21:45,236 --> 00:21:47,356 Speaker 1: place that at least make them think best. Yeah, I 345 00:21:47,356 --> 00:21:50,076 Speaker 1: think that they're acting in alignment with their axioms. However 346 00:21:50,076 --> 00:21:53,316 Speaker 1: flawed their axioms are, for example, exactly exactly so. 347 00:21:53,396 --> 00:21:57,076 Speaker 3: I feel like the drive to do the right thing 348 00:21:57,196 --> 00:22:01,156 Speaker 3: or be a good person is in everyone. The problem is, 349 00:22:01,476 --> 00:22:05,316 Speaker 3: how is that drive manifesting itself. That is where I 350 00:22:05,356 --> 00:22:08,516 Speaker 3: can't make any promises because the world is full of 351 00:22:08,556 --> 00:22:12,476 Speaker 3: crazy idea and people get attached to them and then 352 00:22:12,516 --> 00:22:16,676 Speaker 3: try to manifest them as an expression of trying to 353 00:22:16,756 --> 00:22:17,676 Speaker 3: be a good person. 354 00:22:18,756 --> 00:22:22,996 Speaker 1: Have you thought about how you plan to share your 355 00:22:23,116 --> 00:22:26,596 Speaker 1: story with your kids one day and when that might be, 356 00:22:26,756 --> 00:22:29,916 Speaker 1: and do you find yourself kind of rehearsing parts of 357 00:22:29,956 --> 00:22:31,956 Speaker 1: it in your head, you know, as you go about 358 00:22:31,956 --> 00:22:33,396 Speaker 1: your life or fall asleep at night. 359 00:22:33,716 --> 00:22:38,396 Speaker 2: Well, the cats out of the bag already. 360 00:22:37,956 --> 00:22:40,516 Speaker 1: Which is how old is Yureka? Now? 361 00:22:40,556 --> 00:22:44,956 Speaker 3: She is three and a half, and it's coming up 362 00:22:45,036 --> 00:22:49,156 Speaker 3: because a lot of the work that I do is 363 00:22:49,236 --> 00:22:53,916 Speaker 3: around criminal justice reform and telling my story. I'm executive 364 00:22:53,916 --> 00:22:57,076 Speaker 3: producing a Hulu show that's based upon my first memoir, 365 00:22:57,116 --> 00:23:00,756 Speaker 3: Waiting to be Heard. And so my daughter, just by 366 00:23:00,876 --> 00:23:05,436 Speaker 3: virtue of being around me, has become aware that there 367 00:23:05,596 --> 00:23:09,956 Speaker 3: is a story, and she has asked me what is 368 00:23:09,996 --> 00:23:15,556 Speaker 3: that story? And I always take this position of be 369 00:23:15,756 --> 00:23:20,036 Speaker 3: honest in an age appropriate way, So I tell her 370 00:23:20,276 --> 00:23:24,436 Speaker 3: a very condensed and simplified version of the story, which 371 00:23:24,476 --> 00:23:28,476 Speaker 3: is when mommy was younger, Mommy went to Italy and 372 00:23:28,596 --> 00:23:32,796 Speaker 3: someone hurt her friend, and then the Italian police hurt mommy, 373 00:23:32,916 --> 00:23:35,196 Speaker 3: and mommy was sad for a long time and she 374 00:23:35,316 --> 00:23:38,676 Speaker 3: was in jail. But then mommy was freed and mommy 375 00:23:38,716 --> 00:23:41,956 Speaker 3: came home and Mommy met Papa and we fell in love, 376 00:23:41,996 --> 00:23:43,996 Speaker 3: and then we had you, and now mommy's happy. 377 00:23:45,716 --> 00:23:49,956 Speaker 1: Sorry. I don't mean to get emotional. Sorry, can I 378 00:23:50,036 --> 00:23:53,876 Speaker 1: just say, like, I am so happy that you get 379 00:23:53,876 --> 00:23:55,996 Speaker 1: to have this like as my friend. 380 00:23:56,436 --> 00:23:57,156 Speaker 2: Thanks mamma. 381 00:23:58,116 --> 00:24:02,276 Speaker 1: It fills me with the deepest joy that, uh, something 382 00:24:02,276 --> 00:24:05,516 Speaker 1: that meant so much to you, Oh my gosh, no, 383 00:24:05,796 --> 00:24:08,516 Speaker 1: thank you, something that meant so much to you is 384 00:24:08,556 --> 00:24:11,796 Speaker 1: something that you you get to have in this lifetime. 385 00:24:11,876 --> 00:24:14,196 Speaker 1: Like it's unspeakable joy for me. 386 00:24:15,276 --> 00:24:16,036 Speaker 2: Thank you, Maya. 387 00:24:16,156 --> 00:24:21,476 Speaker 3: I mean, I feel really really lucky, Like I am alive, 388 00:24:21,756 --> 00:24:24,276 Speaker 3: I am healthy, I am safe, I have a home, 389 00:24:24,356 --> 00:24:26,676 Speaker 3: I have a husband, I have children. Like all of 390 00:24:26,676 --> 00:24:30,636 Speaker 3: the things that I thought were gone are here and 391 00:24:31,076 --> 00:24:37,676 Speaker 3: I'm so lucky. So thank you for feeling that with me, though, 392 00:24:37,716 --> 00:24:41,676 Speaker 3: because like it's true, it like any one of those 393 00:24:41,716 --> 00:24:45,476 Speaker 3: things in a moment could have been taken away, and 394 00:24:46,076 --> 00:24:48,476 Speaker 3: so that is not lost on me. 395 00:24:48,996 --> 00:24:55,036 Speaker 2: Every day I wake up in the morning, We'll. 396 00:24:54,836 --> 00:24:57,396 Speaker 1: Be back in a moment with a slight change of plans. 397 00:25:11,876 --> 00:25:15,876 Speaker 1: The chief prosecutor in Amanda's wrongful murder conviction was a 398 00:25:15,916 --> 00:25:20,876 Speaker 1: man named Giuliano Minini. From the start, Minini clung to 399 00:25:20,996 --> 00:25:24,716 Speaker 1: his bizarre and unfounded theory that Amanda killed Meredith as 400 00:25:24,836 --> 00:25:29,716 Speaker 1: part of a sex field satanic ritual, despite no real 401 00:25:29,756 --> 00:25:34,036 Speaker 1: evidence to support it. This narrative caught on like wildfire 402 00:25:34,116 --> 00:25:38,196 Speaker 1: in the European tabloids, and public opinion turned against Amanda 403 00:25:38,396 --> 00:25:43,636 Speaker 1: before the trial even started. Minini ignored crucial DNA evidence 404 00:25:43,716 --> 00:25:47,396 Speaker 1: from the real killer, and he relied on statements Amanda 405 00:25:47,436 --> 00:25:50,716 Speaker 1: had made under duress when she was interrogated for more 406 00:25:50,756 --> 00:25:54,756 Speaker 1: than fifty hours in the days following the murder. The 407 00:25:54,876 --> 00:25:59,636 Speaker 1: High Court that definitively exonerated Amanda would later cite glaring 408 00:25:59,876 --> 00:26:05,036 Speaker 1: errors and investigative amnesia in the case. And so when 409 00:26:05,036 --> 00:26:08,156 Speaker 1: I heard that Amanda recently reached out to her prosecutor, 410 00:26:08,636 --> 00:26:12,796 Speaker 1: I was. She told me she was compelled by one question, 411 00:26:13,716 --> 00:26:14,876 Speaker 1: the why question. 412 00:26:15,916 --> 00:26:21,036 Speaker 3: Why did this happen to me? I still couldn't really 413 00:26:21,836 --> 00:26:26,276 Speaker 3: figure it out, and it really bothered me because I 414 00:26:26,276 --> 00:26:32,716 Speaker 3: couldn't understand how like very immediately, like from day one, 415 00:26:34,036 --> 00:26:38,476 Speaker 3: people and particularly Giuliano Mignini saw guilt in me that 416 00:26:38,596 --> 00:26:45,076 Speaker 3: wasn't there, and I didn't understand why. But I was 417 00:26:45,156 --> 00:26:49,676 Speaker 3: not satisfied with a lot of the sort of answers 418 00:26:49,716 --> 00:26:52,676 Speaker 3: that were proposed by people around me, which is, ah, 419 00:26:52,716 --> 00:26:56,036 Speaker 3: he's an idiot, or ah, you know, he's a corrupt guy, 420 00:26:56,156 --> 00:26:58,036 Speaker 3: and he didn't care if you were innocent or not. 421 00:26:58,116 --> 00:26:59,516 Speaker 2: He just wanted to blame somebody. 422 00:26:59,556 --> 00:27:02,436 Speaker 3: Like there were a lot of different messages coming my 423 00:27:02,516 --> 00:27:07,716 Speaker 3: way about what his motivations were, and none of that 424 00:27:08,036 --> 00:27:12,556 Speaker 3: felt true. I could like, I could not imagine him 425 00:27:12,676 --> 00:27:16,956 Speaker 3: just sitting back in his you know, prosecutor's office, Like 426 00:27:17,716 --> 00:27:22,316 Speaker 3: he's not sitting there with mister Burns's fingers cackling about 427 00:27:22,316 --> 00:27:24,436 Speaker 3: how he has an innocent girl in prison and who 428 00:27:24,436 --> 00:27:27,556 Speaker 3: cares if she's guilty or not. Like he is a 429 00:27:27,636 --> 00:27:31,036 Speaker 3: person who believes that he is doing the right thing, 430 00:27:31,116 --> 00:27:33,316 Speaker 3: and that he who believes that he's a good person, 431 00:27:33,436 --> 00:27:37,596 Speaker 3: and yet and yet he was capable of so much harm, 432 00:27:38,276 --> 00:27:41,156 Speaker 3: and not just harm to me, but like harm to 433 00:27:41,276 --> 00:27:44,916 Speaker 3: everyone involved, principally Meredith's family, who are now left with 434 00:27:44,996 --> 00:27:48,436 Speaker 3: this confusing idea of like, what really happened to our daughter? 435 00:27:48,716 --> 00:27:51,036 Speaker 3: Was this girl in on it or not did she 436 00:27:51,076 --> 00:27:53,316 Speaker 3: get away with it? Like? The idea like that is 437 00:27:53,556 --> 00:27:57,116 Speaker 3: that is psychological torture when they deserved closure, and they 438 00:27:57,156 --> 00:28:01,516 Speaker 3: deserved direct and clear answers to what happened to Meredith. 439 00:28:01,996 --> 00:28:02,316 Speaker 2: And so. 440 00:28:04,116 --> 00:28:10,436 Speaker 3: I I wanted to understand why, and I realized that 441 00:28:10,556 --> 00:28:15,196 Speaker 3: the only way to truly understand was to ask him. 442 00:28:16,836 --> 00:28:20,756 Speaker 1: I'm interested in the fact that you were so quickly 443 00:28:20,796 --> 00:28:22,956 Speaker 1: willing to give him the benefit of the doubt in 444 00:28:23,076 --> 00:28:26,996 Speaker 1: terms of his intentions and motivation. Right, you very quickly 445 00:28:26,996 --> 00:28:29,916 Speaker 1: did away with the reductionist versions of him. He's just evil, 446 00:28:30,036 --> 00:28:33,156 Speaker 1: he's ego obsessed. You know, all he cares about is 447 00:28:33,156 --> 00:28:36,556 Speaker 1: his reputation, blah blah blah. And to me, this hearkens 448 00:28:36,636 --> 00:28:40,276 Speaker 1: back to the philosophy you shared with me earlier, which 449 00:28:40,316 --> 00:28:44,516 Speaker 1: is this feeling that by and large, people try to 450 00:28:44,556 --> 00:28:48,916 Speaker 1: be good and sometimes they just don't understand yet. 451 00:28:49,156 --> 00:28:53,836 Speaker 3: Right, Yes, So, having gone through the experience of being 452 00:28:53,996 --> 00:28:57,036 Speaker 3: viewed in the worst possible light and being viewed as 453 00:28:57,076 --> 00:28:59,916 Speaker 3: a monster as this like black and white villain, I 454 00:29:00,036 --> 00:29:05,556 Speaker 3: intuitively felt that I shouldn't do the same thing, which 455 00:29:05,596 --> 00:29:08,076 Speaker 3: is to think of another human being in those terms. 456 00:29:08,636 --> 00:29:11,796 Speaker 3: And I I really did want to see the good 457 00:29:11,836 --> 00:29:18,076 Speaker 3: in him. I wanted to understand how he was the 458 00:29:18,116 --> 00:29:22,996 Speaker 3: hero of his own story and then hopefully change his mind, 459 00:29:23,356 --> 00:29:27,476 Speaker 3: like I'm gonna be honest, Like I thought, if only 460 00:29:27,516 --> 00:29:30,396 Speaker 3: he could see who I really was, Like he didn't 461 00:29:30,436 --> 00:29:33,836 Speaker 3: know me from anybody, and he came to know me 462 00:29:33,996 --> 00:29:36,836 Speaker 3: in the context of a murder investigation, so of course 463 00:29:36,916 --> 00:29:40,436 Speaker 3: he's going to see me from this sort of suspicious, 464 00:29:40,516 --> 00:29:44,116 Speaker 3: adversarial lens. I mean, I knew what that felt like. 465 00:29:44,196 --> 00:29:47,676 Speaker 3: As soon as I discover that this crime scene was 466 00:29:47,716 --> 00:29:49,956 Speaker 3: in my house and that my roommate had been murdered, 467 00:29:49,996 --> 00:29:53,276 Speaker 3: suddenly everybody seemed more sinister. I started to think, Oh 468 00:29:53,276 --> 00:29:55,716 Speaker 3: my god, could that guy who once gave me a 469 00:29:55,796 --> 00:29:59,036 Speaker 3: ride on a Vespa home maybe he's the murderer because 470 00:29:59,076 --> 00:30:01,756 Speaker 3: he now knows where our Like who knows like that? 471 00:30:02,076 --> 00:30:05,436 Speaker 3: It gives you this like cognitive opening where suddenly everything 472 00:30:05,476 --> 00:30:08,196 Speaker 3: can be seen in the worst possible light. And I 473 00:30:08,316 --> 00:30:11,476 Speaker 3: was wondering and like, is it possible for me to 474 00:30:11,556 --> 00:30:16,156 Speaker 3: have a relationship with him that isn't adversarial and that 475 00:30:16,356 --> 00:30:19,196 Speaker 3: is coming from a place of really wanting to understand? 476 00:30:20,116 --> 00:30:23,316 Speaker 3: But how do you do that? And one of the 477 00:30:23,356 --> 00:30:26,516 Speaker 3: things that I realized was it was not going to 478 00:30:26,556 --> 00:30:29,396 Speaker 3: work if I came in with an adversarial stance. I 479 00:30:29,396 --> 00:30:34,236 Speaker 3: couldn't just write him a letter and be like, doctor Juliantomannini. 480 00:30:33,796 --> 00:30:37,876 Speaker 2: How dare you? You know you were wrong? And how 481 00:30:38,036 --> 00:30:38,476 Speaker 2: dare you? 482 00:30:38,556 --> 00:30:40,676 Speaker 3: And you know, like that was not going to get 483 00:30:40,676 --> 00:30:42,836 Speaker 3: me anywhere, because that was going to set the terms 484 00:30:42,916 --> 00:30:45,836 Speaker 3: of our relationship in these terms that we had known 485 00:30:45,876 --> 00:30:50,596 Speaker 3: all along, that these adversarial, accusational terms. And instead I 486 00:30:50,756 --> 00:30:55,796 Speaker 3: tried to think, what in the world do we have 487 00:30:55,956 --> 00:31:01,956 Speaker 3: in common? Because we have something in common. Every person 488 00:31:02,076 --> 00:31:04,756 Speaker 3: has something in common, and if I could only find 489 00:31:05,236 --> 00:31:08,876 Speaker 3: common ground with him, maybe that would be. 490 00:31:09,236 --> 00:31:10,156 Speaker 2: The first step. 491 00:31:11,076 --> 00:31:14,116 Speaker 3: And it wasn't hard for me to find that common 492 00:31:14,156 --> 00:31:18,476 Speaker 3: ground with him. It was right there to see, which 493 00:31:18,556 --> 00:31:21,716 Speaker 3: is that this case got out of control in the media, 494 00:31:22,156 --> 00:31:25,956 Speaker 3: and everyone, not just me, got turned into a sort 495 00:31:25,956 --> 00:31:30,396 Speaker 3: of two dimensional cartoon version of ourselves. And I knew 496 00:31:30,436 --> 00:31:34,756 Speaker 3: that he felt misrepresented in the press, and so I 497 00:31:34,916 --> 00:31:38,116 Speaker 3: reached out to him and I said, I don't know 498 00:31:38,196 --> 00:31:41,116 Speaker 3: who you are. All I know is that you are 499 00:31:41,156 --> 00:31:44,916 Speaker 3: my prosecutor and you're scary. Therefore, but like I know 500 00:31:45,076 --> 00:31:47,476 Speaker 3: that you were misrepresented in the press, and I was 501 00:31:47,476 --> 00:31:49,836 Speaker 3: misrepresented in the press, and I feel like we have 502 00:31:49,956 --> 00:31:54,676 Speaker 3: that in common. And I'm wondering, do you want to 503 00:31:54,716 --> 00:32:01,756 Speaker 3: talk to me about who you really are? And you know, 504 00:32:02,116 --> 00:32:08,716 Speaker 3: never underestimate the element of surprise because I surprised him, 505 00:32:09,156 --> 00:32:14,036 Speaker 3: and I surprised him so much. We ended up corresponding 506 00:32:14,116 --> 00:32:17,956 Speaker 3: over email for years before I actually ever met him 507 00:32:17,956 --> 00:32:22,036 Speaker 3: in person. And I can't tell you so much of 508 00:32:22,076 --> 00:32:26,316 Speaker 3: it was like the banal stuff of just like talking 509 00:32:26,356 --> 00:32:29,676 Speaker 3: to your uncle who lives in another country, like oh, 510 00:32:29,716 --> 00:32:32,196 Speaker 3: how are the dogs doing? Oh? You know, like, oh, 511 00:32:32,236 --> 00:32:33,516 Speaker 3: I went on a walk today and it was a 512 00:32:33,556 --> 00:32:35,716 Speaker 3: beautiful rain, you know, like I love the rain. So 513 00:32:35,756 --> 00:32:38,636 Speaker 3: I'm learning things about him, like I learned that he 514 00:32:38,676 --> 00:32:41,836 Speaker 3: loves to listen to Wagner. I learned that he's super 515 00:32:41,916 --> 00:32:46,276 Speaker 3: into Lord of the Rings and you know, and like 516 00:32:46,596 --> 00:32:50,276 Speaker 3: he sees himself as like King Theoden and me like Aowin. 517 00:32:50,996 --> 00:32:53,596 Speaker 3: And it's just like but like these little moments that 518 00:32:53,636 --> 00:32:55,676 Speaker 3: are like you do. 519 00:32:55,636 --> 00:32:58,396 Speaker 2: You know what you're saying? Like they are It seemed 520 00:32:58,436 --> 00:32:59,356 Speaker 2: like he was always. 521 00:32:59,076 --> 00:33:02,356 Speaker 3: Sort of dropping little hints to me about like how 522 00:33:02,396 --> 00:33:05,756 Speaker 3: he really felt about the case through these little personal details, 523 00:33:05,756 --> 00:33:09,276 Speaker 3: like does he understand what it means. If he's such 524 00:33:09,276 --> 00:33:11,276 Speaker 3: a big Lord of the Rings fan, he knows that 525 00:33:11,316 --> 00:33:13,916 Speaker 3: aowen's worst fear is to be locked in a cage. 526 00:33:14,636 --> 00:33:17,596 Speaker 1: Yeah, so you felt like there are these little nuggets 527 00:33:17,636 --> 00:33:21,276 Speaker 1: of contrition. Is that right? Yeah? Contrition? 528 00:33:21,876 --> 00:33:23,996 Speaker 2: And then I kept questioning myself. I was like, am 529 00:33:24,036 --> 00:33:25,276 Speaker 2: I reading into this? 530 00:33:25,396 --> 00:33:29,196 Speaker 3: Or like a really great example where he sent me 531 00:33:29,316 --> 00:33:31,796 Speaker 3: this movie to watch. He said, oh my gosh, you 532 00:33:31,876 --> 00:33:33,716 Speaker 3: have to watch this movie. It's one of my favorite 533 00:33:33,756 --> 00:33:39,116 Speaker 3: movies about Detective Micrae and it's a case where Detective 534 00:33:39,156 --> 00:33:44,156 Speaker 3: Migree realizes that somebody that he had condemned to death 535 00:33:44,276 --> 00:33:49,076 Speaker 3: for murder is actually innocent, and so he orchestrates this 536 00:33:49,156 --> 00:33:53,156 Speaker 3: man's secret release from prison and then follows him around 537 00:33:53,196 --> 00:33:55,196 Speaker 3: until he finds out who the real murderer is. 538 00:33:56,036 --> 00:34:02,476 Speaker 2: And I'm just like, what, Like is he is this him? 539 00:34:02,516 --> 00:34:05,396 Speaker 2: Like I kept thinking, is this him admitting that he 540 00:34:05,556 --> 00:34:08,796 Speaker 2: was wrong? Or am I reading too much into this? 541 00:34:08,836 --> 00:34:11,956 Speaker 3: And so like there was a lot in the correspondence 542 00:34:11,996 --> 00:34:16,476 Speaker 3: that gave me hope to believe that he was on 543 00:34:16,516 --> 00:34:19,996 Speaker 3: the cusp of like telling me, but maybe not telling 544 00:34:19,996 --> 00:34:21,796 Speaker 3: me because he didn't want it. In writing and so 545 00:34:21,916 --> 00:34:25,196 Speaker 3: is he finding other ways to tell Like, so it's 546 00:34:25,236 --> 00:34:30,956 Speaker 3: been this weird unraveling of a code, and also like 547 00:34:31,076 --> 00:34:34,276 Speaker 3: just allowing myself to just accept it for whatever it is. 548 00:34:36,156 --> 00:34:41,116 Speaker 1: How did your family react to hearing that you wanted 549 00:34:41,116 --> 00:34:44,276 Speaker 1: to reach out to this guy? Like were they at 550 00:34:44,276 --> 00:34:48,356 Speaker 1: all convinced by your curiosity, by your need to understand? Why? 551 00:34:50,636 --> 00:34:52,916 Speaker 2: No is the short answer to that question. 552 00:34:54,316 --> 00:34:57,316 Speaker 1: So with your family to be clear, yeah. 553 00:34:56,996 --> 00:34:57,916 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I get it. 554 00:34:57,916 --> 00:35:00,876 Speaker 3: And like, honestly, if this had happened to my daughter 555 00:35:01,196 --> 00:35:06,596 Speaker 3: and I was now watching her have empathy and compassion 556 00:35:06,636 --> 00:35:09,316 Speaker 3: and curiosity for her the person who had harmed her, 557 00:35:09,876 --> 00:35:12,636 Speaker 3: I would be afraid that she would be setting herself 558 00:35:12,716 --> 00:35:16,076 Speaker 3: up for pain that she didn't have to feel. And 559 00:35:16,236 --> 00:35:18,676 Speaker 3: I would ask of her, like, what do you think 560 00:35:18,716 --> 00:35:21,476 Speaker 3: you need from this person? Why are you holding on 561 00:35:21,556 --> 00:35:25,396 Speaker 3: to this person as if you need him to be better? 562 00:35:25,836 --> 00:35:28,756 Speaker 3: And you know that's a legitimate that's a legitimate question. 563 00:35:28,916 --> 00:35:31,556 Speaker 1: Why does he have to be in unlock for any 564 00:35:31,636 --> 00:35:32,676 Speaker 1: exactly in your life? 565 00:35:32,756 --> 00:35:32,916 Speaker 3: Right? 566 00:35:32,916 --> 00:35:35,076 Speaker 1: That's giving him a kind of power that he simply 567 00:35:35,116 --> 00:35:36,396 Speaker 1: doesn't deserve exactly. 568 00:35:36,556 --> 00:35:39,276 Speaker 3: And actually that was a crucial question that I asked 569 00:35:39,276 --> 00:35:42,076 Speaker 3: myself as I got closer and closer to meeting with him, 570 00:35:42,716 --> 00:35:47,956 Speaker 3: is I like, I had to face this idea of like, wait, 571 00:35:48,116 --> 00:35:51,596 Speaker 3: am I just in a weird Stockholm situation and I'm 572 00:35:51,636 --> 00:35:52,916 Speaker 3: like fixated on him? 573 00:35:53,476 --> 00:35:55,476 Speaker 2: And do I actually need him? 574 00:35:55,756 --> 00:35:59,116 Speaker 3: And I had a conversation with this person named David Zelman, 575 00:35:59,836 --> 00:36:02,956 Speaker 3: and he suggested to me the idea that I did 576 00:36:02,996 --> 00:36:06,196 Speaker 3: not in fact need to talk to Juliata Menedi, that 577 00:36:06,196 --> 00:36:08,716 Speaker 3: I did not need anything from him, and then he 578 00:36:08,756 --> 00:36:13,316 Speaker 3: gave me this very very radical idea that maybe, just 579 00:36:13,476 --> 00:36:18,756 Speaker 3: maybe I might be feeling so drawn to him because 580 00:36:18,756 --> 00:36:24,276 Speaker 3: I have something to give him. And that was the 581 00:36:24,396 --> 00:36:30,076 Speaker 3: switch that flipped for me where I thought, Yes, this 582 00:36:30,236 --> 00:36:33,996 Speaker 3: is not about him and what he is capable of giving. 583 00:36:35,196 --> 00:36:39,956 Speaker 3: This is about me and what I am capable of giving. 584 00:36:41,196 --> 00:36:46,196 Speaker 3: And I know that I am capable of being kind 585 00:36:46,396 --> 00:36:52,516 Speaker 3: to this man, and by God, I am going to 586 00:36:52,636 --> 00:36:57,596 Speaker 3: do it and no one can stop me. And that's 587 00:36:57,676 --> 00:37:01,116 Speaker 3: what it ultimately came to be about. It's not about him. 588 00:37:01,716 --> 00:37:04,436 Speaker 3: It's about me and what I have in me and 589 00:37:04,476 --> 00:37:09,476 Speaker 3: what I feel compelled to give that didn't need to 590 00:37:09,476 --> 00:37:11,756 Speaker 3: be given, and that was not even asked for. 591 00:37:12,036 --> 00:37:16,596 Speaker 1: Yes, well, because notably when you did actually meet him 592 00:37:16,596 --> 00:37:20,196 Speaker 1: in person. You brought your husband with you, you had 593 00:37:20,196 --> 00:37:23,356 Speaker 1: your daughter with you. He was not in writing. But 594 00:37:24,036 --> 00:37:27,556 Speaker 1: he didn't extend an apology. 595 00:37:27,556 --> 00:37:31,716 Speaker 3: Right Yeah, so what he did say versus what he 596 00:37:31,756 --> 00:37:37,396 Speaker 3: didn't say, right, Like, he didn't say I'm sorry, he 597 00:37:37,516 --> 00:37:43,196 Speaker 3: didn't say I was wrong, but he did say I 598 00:37:43,316 --> 00:37:48,716 Speaker 3: believe you. He said, if I were asked to prosecute 599 00:37:48,756 --> 00:37:50,116 Speaker 3: this case again, I would not. 600 00:37:52,116 --> 00:37:52,476 Speaker 1: Wow. 601 00:37:53,556 --> 00:37:56,236 Speaker 3: He said that me reaching out to him was one 602 00:37:56,276 --> 00:37:58,796 Speaker 3: of the most important things that had ever happened to him, 603 00:38:00,796 --> 00:38:05,116 Speaker 3: and he said that he was in awe by it. 604 00:38:06,796 --> 00:38:12,956 Speaker 3: And I think the really interesting thing to think about 605 00:38:13,556 --> 00:38:17,516 Speaker 3: is you can come away from an experience like that 606 00:38:18,676 --> 00:38:27,636 Speaker 3: being deeply disappointed or being pleasantly surprised, and it's really 607 00:38:27,796 --> 00:38:32,996 Speaker 3: your choice. Like the answers that I got from him 608 00:38:33,396 --> 00:38:39,916 Speaker 3: were not always satisfying, but they were interesting and they 609 00:38:40,036 --> 00:38:43,356 Speaker 3: were revelatory. There was a person who I was talking 610 00:38:43,396 --> 00:38:46,996 Speaker 3: to who was just like, so frustrated by the end 611 00:38:46,996 --> 00:38:49,396 Speaker 3: of reading my books. She was like, I mean, he 612 00:38:49,476 --> 00:38:51,436 Speaker 3: gives you this, but he doesn't give you that, Like 613 00:38:51,516 --> 00:38:54,116 Speaker 3: what is he you know? What is going on here? 614 00:38:54,516 --> 00:38:57,396 Speaker 3: And I was like, honey, like there are two ways 615 00:38:57,476 --> 00:38:59,876 Speaker 3: of looking at the world. You either look at the 616 00:38:59,876 --> 00:39:02,556 Speaker 3: world like a department store or like a thrift store. 617 00:39:02,996 --> 00:39:04,596 Speaker 2: Now a department store. 618 00:39:04,316 --> 00:39:06,476 Speaker 3: You can go in and you can get the little 619 00:39:06,556 --> 00:39:09,516 Speaker 3: black dress that you saw on sale online and in 620 00:39:09,556 --> 00:39:12,236 Speaker 3: your size whenever you want. And that's how it is. 621 00:39:12,556 --> 00:39:15,236 Speaker 3: And you can pretend that the world is like that, 622 00:39:15,316 --> 00:39:17,836 Speaker 3: but that's not really how the world is. The world 623 00:39:17,916 --> 00:39:20,596 Speaker 3: is really like a thrift shop. You go in and 624 00:39:20,636 --> 00:39:23,036 Speaker 3: you don't know what you're gonna find. And if you 625 00:39:23,116 --> 00:39:25,876 Speaker 3: have your mindset on that little black dress that you 626 00:39:25,916 --> 00:39:28,476 Speaker 3: saw online that's in your side to find it, you 627 00:39:28,556 --> 00:39:29,076 Speaker 3: are not. 628 00:39:29,036 --> 00:39:29,836 Speaker 2: Going to find it. 629 00:39:30,516 --> 00:39:32,916 Speaker 3: But if you are fixated on only finding that, you 630 00:39:32,956 --> 00:39:35,436 Speaker 3: are not going to be able to find the things 631 00:39:35,476 --> 00:39:40,356 Speaker 3: that appear to you that you may be just delighted 632 00:39:40,396 --> 00:39:44,436 Speaker 3: by that you are not expecting, like a mushroom shaped lamp. 633 00:39:44,756 --> 00:39:48,276 Speaker 2: It's you know, like, so this is like how I 634 00:39:48,276 --> 00:39:48,716 Speaker 2: don't know that. 635 00:39:48,756 --> 00:39:51,116 Speaker 3: It's like such a silly way of like thinking about it, 636 00:39:51,156 --> 00:39:54,956 Speaker 3: but like I try to encounter the world and life 637 00:39:54,996 --> 00:39:57,316 Speaker 3: and people like you would a thrift store, and like 638 00:39:57,436 --> 00:40:01,276 Speaker 3: being open to being pleasantly surprised instead of having these 639 00:40:01,476 --> 00:40:07,996 Speaker 3: very specific expectations that will lead to disappointment. My mom 640 00:40:08,316 --> 00:40:11,796 Speaker 3: was not satisfy. She was disappointed. She was looking for 641 00:40:11,836 --> 00:40:14,236 Speaker 3: that black dress in her size. She wanted him to 642 00:40:14,276 --> 00:40:16,476 Speaker 3: say I was wrong and I'm sorry, and I'll do 643 00:40:16,556 --> 00:40:18,756 Speaker 3: everything in my power to make it right. And he 644 00:40:18,796 --> 00:40:23,116 Speaker 3: didn't say any of those things, and she wasn't able 645 00:40:23,196 --> 00:40:28,036 Speaker 3: to hear what he was able to say. He said 646 00:40:28,116 --> 00:40:31,036 Speaker 3: that he wanted to be a source of healing in 647 00:40:31,116 --> 00:40:35,316 Speaker 3: my life, that he didn't want me to suffer anymore 648 00:40:35,556 --> 00:40:36,716 Speaker 3: for what I had been through. 649 00:40:38,596 --> 00:40:39,636 Speaker 2: And I heard that. 650 00:40:41,116 --> 00:40:44,036 Speaker 3: I could hear that in a way that my mom couldn't, 651 00:40:45,436 --> 00:40:50,076 Speaker 3: And so I came away from that experience feeling healed, 652 00:40:50,996 --> 00:40:56,836 Speaker 3: not just by what he said, but also by the 653 00:40:56,996 --> 00:40:59,476 Speaker 3: fact that I had put myself in a position in 654 00:40:59,596 --> 00:41:00,516 Speaker 3: order to hear it. 655 00:41:02,356 --> 00:41:05,676 Speaker 1: You mentioned him being in awe. I, frankly, I think 656 00:41:05,716 --> 00:41:09,996 Speaker 1: we all are, because what I see is just masterclass 657 00:41:10,876 --> 00:41:16,596 Speaker 1: for the rest of us what it means to bridge 658 00:41:16,636 --> 00:41:20,076 Speaker 1: one of the greatest gaps that can exist between two humans. 659 00:41:20,116 --> 00:41:24,916 Speaker 1: I mean, it is a masterclass in human empathy. You know, 660 00:41:24,956 --> 00:41:30,636 Speaker 1: your book is called Free, and you've spent years searching 661 00:41:30,716 --> 00:41:34,796 Speaker 1: for freedom, both from behind bars and then after you 662 00:41:34,836 --> 00:41:38,116 Speaker 1: were released, And God, I hate that this is true, 663 00:41:38,116 --> 00:41:40,836 Speaker 1: but even recently, just for listeners to know, you were 664 00:41:40,876 --> 00:41:45,076 Speaker 1: found guilty of slander for statements that you made in 665 00:41:45,116 --> 00:41:48,916 Speaker 1: the days following Merediths murder. Police interrogated you for over 666 00:41:48,996 --> 00:41:53,996 Speaker 1: fifty hours over five days, and under extreme coercion, you 667 00:41:54,116 --> 00:41:56,676 Speaker 1: ended up implicating your boss at the time in the 668 00:41:56,756 --> 00:42:00,836 Speaker 1: murder of Meredith. And despite your appeal, despite the fact 669 00:42:00,836 --> 00:42:04,956 Speaker 1: that a European high court found Italy to be in 670 00:42:05,036 --> 00:42:09,436 Speaker 1: violation of your human rights during the interrogation, Italy Top 671 00:42:09,476 --> 00:42:13,796 Speaker 1: Court still upheld this conviction. In twenty twenty five. This happened. 672 00:42:13,876 --> 00:42:21,236 Speaker 1: And so I mean, like so frustrating. I'm just like, 673 00:42:21,356 --> 00:42:23,876 Speaker 1: oh my god, it's so frustrating. And so what I 674 00:42:23,876 --> 00:42:25,716 Speaker 1: want to ask aman is like, what have you learned 675 00:42:25,716 --> 00:42:28,476 Speaker 1: about freedom? What is freedom to you? 676 00:42:29,716 --> 00:42:36,116 Speaker 3: For me, freedom means being able to see and engage 677 00:42:36,116 --> 00:42:40,916 Speaker 3: with the world with a clear mind, because if you 678 00:42:40,956 --> 00:42:43,956 Speaker 3: are engaging with the world as it should be, you 679 00:42:43,996 --> 00:42:47,156 Speaker 3: are perpetually going to be ineffective. You're going to encounter 680 00:42:47,236 --> 00:42:50,396 Speaker 3: obstacles because you're going to be thinking about what to 681 00:42:50,476 --> 00:42:53,076 Speaker 3: do in the terms of what you think the world 682 00:42:53,156 --> 00:42:55,116 Speaker 3: should be like, and not the world as it is. 683 00:42:55,636 --> 00:42:59,116 Speaker 3: And I think the reason why I had such an 684 00:42:59,156 --> 00:43:06,676 Speaker 3: effective approach to Minnini was because I saw clearly the 685 00:43:06,716 --> 00:43:09,196 Speaker 3: situation for what it was, and that gave me a 686 00:43:09,276 --> 00:43:13,356 Speaker 3: degree of freedom of choosing how I wanted to engage 687 00:43:13,356 --> 00:43:17,276 Speaker 3: with it. There's a Zen saying, I'm a Zen practitioner 688 00:43:18,156 --> 00:43:21,436 Speaker 3: that if you really really sit with the world and 689 00:43:21,476 --> 00:43:23,876 Speaker 3: with reality in the present moment, and you just sit 690 00:43:24,036 --> 00:43:29,676 Speaker 3: and look at it clearly, you'll realize that it's okay. 691 00:43:29,756 --> 00:43:32,836 Speaker 3: It's not good, it's not bad, it's it's okay. You 692 00:43:32,916 --> 00:43:39,636 Speaker 3: are okay, and being okay is a great place from 693 00:43:39,676 --> 00:43:42,356 Speaker 3: which to choose how you are going to be in 694 00:43:42,396 --> 00:43:45,636 Speaker 3: the world. You're not coming from a place of fear, 695 00:43:46,116 --> 00:43:49,716 Speaker 3: You're not coming from a place of anger. You are 696 00:43:49,716 --> 00:43:53,476 Speaker 3: coming from a place of being okay and choosing to 697 00:43:53,516 --> 00:43:57,316 Speaker 3: be your best self in the next moment. And that 698 00:43:57,476 --> 00:44:02,476 Speaker 3: makes me feel like, no matter what the external circumstances 699 00:44:02,516 --> 00:44:06,876 Speaker 3: I'm facing are, like, I know that I am free 700 00:44:06,956 --> 00:44:08,796 Speaker 3: to act the way I want to. 701 00:44:31,156 --> 00:44:35,396 Speaker 1: Despite the fact Italy's highest court upheld Amanda's slander conviction, 702 00:44:35,956 --> 00:44:38,236 Speaker 1: she won't need to return to prison because of the 703 00:44:38,316 --> 00:44:42,956 Speaker 1: four years she already spent wrongfully incarcerated To hear more 704 00:44:42,996 --> 00:44:46,156 Speaker 1: of Amanda's reflections on motherhood and the story of her 705 00:44:46,196 --> 00:44:49,996 Speaker 1: relationship with her prosecutor check out her new book, It's 706 00:44:50,036 --> 00:45:03,956 Speaker 1: called Free My Search for Meaning. Thanks so much for listening. 707 00:45:04,516 --> 00:45:07,196 Speaker 1: If you enjoyed this episode, we in the Slight Change 708 00:45:07,236 --> 00:45:09,836 Speaker 1: Family would so appreciate it if you could share it 709 00:45:09,836 --> 00:45:12,596 Speaker 1: with your family and friends. And you can sign up 710 00:45:12,636 --> 00:45:16,876 Speaker 1: for my free newsletter at Changewithmaya dot com. Join me 711 00:45:16,996 --> 00:45:19,956 Speaker 1: next week, when we hear from author and podcast host 712 00:45:20,076 --> 00:45:23,116 Speaker 1: Mel Robbins on her battle with control. 713 00:45:23,476 --> 00:45:27,476 Speaker 5: I just started to say, let them. At any moment 714 00:45:27,556 --> 00:45:31,236 Speaker 5: in my life where things just felt stress with traffic, 715 00:45:31,356 --> 00:45:34,236 Speaker 5: let them the person's root in front of me, wet them. 716 00:45:34,316 --> 00:45:35,076 Speaker 5: My mom's in a bad. 717 00:45:34,956 --> 00:45:36,036 Speaker 2: Moot, let her read a bad move. 718 00:45:36,276 --> 00:45:38,236 Speaker 5: And so I just started saying, let them, let them, 719 00:45:38,316 --> 00:45:41,436 Speaker 5: let them, And it was so profound. 720 00:45:42,436 --> 00:45:46,836 Speaker 1: That's next week on A Slight Change of Plans. A 721 00:45:46,876 --> 00:45:50,316 Speaker 1: Slight Change of Plans is created, written and executive produced 722 00:45:50,356 --> 00:45:53,756 Speaker 1: by me Maya Schunker. The Slight Changed Family includes our 723 00:45:53,796 --> 00:45:58,436 Speaker 1: showrunner Tyler Green, our senior editor Kate Parkinson, Morgan, our 724 00:45:58,476 --> 00:46:02,556 Speaker 1: producers Britney Cronin and Megan Luvin, and our sound engineer 725 00:46:02,716 --> 00:46:06,636 Speaker 1: Erica Huang, Louis Scara wrote our delightful theme song and 726 00:46:06,716 --> 00:46:09,876 Speaker 1: Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals. A Slight Change of 727 00:46:09,916 --> 00:46:13,316 Speaker 1: Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries, so big thanks 728 00:46:13,356 --> 00:46:16,796 Speaker 1: to everyone there, and of course a very special thanks 729 00:46:16,836 --> 00:46:19,436 Speaker 1: to Jimmy Lee. You can follow A Slight Change of 730 00:46:19,476 --> 00:46:23,116 Speaker 1: Plans on Instagram at doctor Maya Schunker. See you next week.