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Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to Cool People Did Cool Stuff. You're

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Speaker 1: twice weekly dose of people who lived for what they believed.

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Speaker 1: I'm your host, my great Killjoy, and with me today

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Speaker 1: is Mia Wong. Hi are you I'm trying I'm trying

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Speaker 1: pretty good. Um, yeah, being Mia, it's a good time. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Do you want to explain what you mean by that? Oh? Yes,

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Speaker 1: since I guess I have not explained it anywhere else yet.

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Speaker 1: I'm trans Mia now out. Um yeah, me as one

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Speaker 1: of the many hosts of the podcast. It could happen

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Speaker 1: here that if you don't listen to, you should be

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Speaker 1: listening to. And it's been really funny because I'm really

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Speaker 1: bad at remembering more than one name for somebody, and

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Speaker 1: so I'm very excited to completely forget what your old

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Speaker 1: name was, because it was really hard for me to

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Speaker 1: remember two names. I'm sorry, really it was hard about

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Speaker 1: me that you were in the closet. That's the hardest

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Speaker 1: part about other people. I really did feel bad, just

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Speaker 1: like making all my coworkers like shandered me all the time,

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Speaker 1: and I was like, I'm sorry, I'm gonna be honest.

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Speaker 1: It was easy. You're not an ounce of burden. Yeah. No,

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Speaker 1: And it was not burden some I'm just really excited

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Speaker 1: to have you on as a guest to fair Market.

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Speaker 1: You don't remember most people's names, even if they have,

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Speaker 1: even if it's just one. Oh yeah, well what it

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Speaker 1: is is that if, especially if you have an Instagram

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Speaker 1: handle and it's not what your name is, that's your name.

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Speaker 1: After about a year, if I see you in public,

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Speaker 1: you're going to be like rat Pizza Man forty seven

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Speaker 1: or whatever. This is. This is oh yeah, did you

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Speaker 1: care that person? Yeah? I remember things, which is why

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Speaker 1: I'm such a trustworthy history podcaster. Our producer is Sophie. Sophie,

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Speaker 1: how are you doing? How's your dog? Anderson is great.

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Speaker 1: She's wearing like a really nice like green vest that

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Speaker 1: my friend got her that is like water resistant, which

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Speaker 1: is a looks like a cape. Yeah, it does look

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Speaker 1: like a cape, and um I think she feels powerful

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Speaker 1: in it. And um that's nice and I love her. Yeah, Miam,

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Speaker 1: do you have any pets? No, it's okay. So anyway,

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Speaker 1: Mia likes animals. Yeah, it's okay. So what if? What if?

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Speaker 1: What if one of the most terrible things about my

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Speaker 1: human conditions that I love cats and unbelievably allergic to

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Speaker 1: them love me like every single kind of ever met

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Speaker 1: loves me. For one, who was my grandpa's cat who

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Speaker 1: just bawl everyone who walked past them. But other than

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Speaker 1: that and like her allergies legit. Yeahah like I get

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Speaker 1: like after about an hour, I sound like I'm dying.

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Speaker 1: It's it's okay. So in order to record my next

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Speaker 1: metal album, I'm gonna get you over and bring a cat. Mhmm.

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Speaker 1: You're gonna get some incredible coughing excellent. Yeah. Our audio

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Speaker 1: engine years Ian high Ian. It's funny to say hi

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Speaker 1: to Ian because he can't say anything back. Everyone say

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Speaker 1: hi to Ian. This is the first time I've ever

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Speaker 1: made this joke. I don't recycle jokes. Our theme music

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Speaker 1: was written for us by a woman, So Mia today

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Speaker 1: it's really fun I love that. I don't tell my

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Speaker 1: guess what I'm gonna tell the about today. We're talking

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Speaker 1: about some like street trash punks before punk, like ten

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Speaker 1: years before punk. Actually they're one of the aesthetic inspirations

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Speaker 1: for punk, but we'll get to that. In the late

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Speaker 1: sixties in New York City on the Lower East Side,

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Speaker 1: there was a crew of weirdo artists. They named themselves

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Speaker 1: something unprincipal. They were the up against the Wall Motherfucker's.

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Speaker 1: Today we're gonna talk about them. You ever heard of

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Speaker 1: the up against the Wall Motherfucker's. Some incredibly vague memory

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Speaker 1: of being in a college US where I hadn't slept

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Speaker 1: for three days, and I took a class of like

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Speaker 1: The Underground like thing. We started with like the actual

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Speaker 1: book The Underground, and then went do a whole bunch

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Speaker 1: of off and I think they mentioned them there, but

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Speaker 1: I was so tired that I remember I remember nothing

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Speaker 1: about them at all. Yeah, yeah, no, um, they are.

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Speaker 1: They did not seek the limelight. And that's one of

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Speaker 1: the things that's so interesting and amazing about them. They

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Speaker 1: did as much as like not any of the other

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Speaker 1: groups that are around at the time, right, but as

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Speaker 1: much as like a great number of the ones who

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Speaker 1: are a lot more famous. Um, And they just like

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Speaker 1: very consciously didn't seek the limelight. And so there's it's

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Speaker 1: harder to know about them. And I'm going to talk

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Speaker 1: about them. One of the one of the Motherfucker's they

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Speaker 1: called themselves the Motherfucker's, among other epithets for themselves. His

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Speaker 1: name is Oshan Newman, and he wrote a memoir called

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Speaker 1: Up against the Wall Motherfucker and No It's for next Time,

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Speaker 1: and his memoir starts off this way. In nineteen sixty seven,

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Speaker 1: I became a founding member of an anarchist street gang

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Speaker 1: called Up against the Wall Motherfucker's. An unexpected career move

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Speaker 1: for a nice Jewish boy with an m A and

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Speaker 1: history from Yale. We called ourselves the Motherfucker's. We saw

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Speaker 1: ourselves as urban guerrillas swimming in the countercultural sea of

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Speaker 1: freaks and dropouts. We didn't like the media term hippies

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Speaker 1: who had swarmed the cheap rent tenements of the Lower

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Speaker 1: East Side of New York. Those young dropouts were a base,

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Speaker 1: and we attempted to organize them for total revolution through rallies,

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Speaker 1: free feasts, raucous community meetings, and a steady stream of

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Speaker 1: mimeographed flyers. Against the vapid spaceiness of flower power, we

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Speaker 1: proclaimed the need for armed love. Um. The history of

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Speaker 1: these people is incredibly hard to pin down, right, because, oh,

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Speaker 1: they left behind a lot of like mimocraft flyers, right,

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Speaker 1: But there's there's two Motherfucker's who are still alive who

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Speaker 1: talk about this stuff publicly, and they really don't see

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Speaker 1: eye to eye about what happened and what it means,

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Speaker 1: and whether or not they were like totally on the

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Speaker 1: right track or whether they were a bunch of fucking

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Speaker 1: asshole kids. You've got Ocean Newman, who I just quoted.

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Speaker 1: His Jewish family had fled from the Nazis and he

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Speaker 1: grew up in a privileged, academic Marxist household. He joined

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Speaker 1: The Motherfucker's as a disaffected artist, but after he left

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Speaker 1: he started really questioning the whole thing, and he wrote

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Speaker 1: a book about it. And his primary focus is basically, like,

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Speaker 1: we were dumb kids, and mostly it was bad. That

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Speaker 1: is my takeaway from what he wrote about his time

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Speaker 1: in the Motherfucker's. So he has his bias going on

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Speaker 1: these days. He's a Bay Area movement lawyer who helps

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Speaker 1: people fight shitty landlords. Actually specifically helped one of my

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Speaker 1: friends fight a shitty landlord, so that's awesome, thank you.

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Speaker 1: Then you've got Ben Maria. He's the opposite in so

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Speaker 1: many ways. He grew up rough and poor. He grew

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Speaker 1: up first in the Maryland, Virginia area, but his mom

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Speaker 1: moved to Hell's Kitchen when he was ten. He's also

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Speaker 1: white and he spent the rest of his youth on

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Speaker 1: the streets New York. He's still alive too. He hasn't

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Speaker 1: written a book about the Motherfucker's, but he gives a

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Speaker 1: lot of interviews, and his take on the Motherfucker's is

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Speaker 1: a fucking one eight from OSHA's. And he's full of

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Speaker 1: pride about the things that they changed and the lives

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Speaker 1: that they impacted. His interest these days are animism, anarchism,

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Speaker 1: and painting. And he's actually on Instagram and you can

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Speaker 1: buy his paintings, um and I suggest you look him up.

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Speaker 1: He's an abstract painter and he's got his biases coming

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Speaker 1: into what he talks about. Two and all of them

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Speaker 1: only started writing about the ship forty years later. They're

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Speaker 1: like and both of them will fess up to being like, look,

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Speaker 1: I don't know. This is the best we can relact

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Speaker 1: and recollect. And some of them are like, now I

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Speaker 1: remember it like this. Now I remember it like this,

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Speaker 1: and they're just like, I don't know, I don't know

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Speaker 1: what happened. Also, they did a fucking lot of crime,

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Speaker 1: like a lot of crime. And one of the things

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Speaker 1: about crime that I would recommend my listeners is to

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Speaker 1: not talk about it much. Yeah, So the shadowy history

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Speaker 1: of the Motherfucker's is what we're talking about today. And

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Speaker 1: I've got my biases to right as I try and

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Speaker 1: figure out this story. But this is the best understanding

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Speaker 1: that I have of what happened between all the conflicting sources. Usually,

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Speaker 1: when one person is like, no, this is right and

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Speaker 1: one person is like this is right, I'm like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: you're both right, you're both wrong. Whatever you know. Right,

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Speaker 1: We're gonna start with Ben Murrayam the guy still likes

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Speaker 1: everything that he did the Animist. He grew up in

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Speaker 1: Hell's Kitchen as a teenager and he got into jazz

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Speaker 1: and he played the vibraphone, which I had to look up.

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Speaker 1: I didn't know what a vibraphone was. It's like a

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Speaker 1: marimba or a glockenspiel or whatever. Like it's like I

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Speaker 1: got a bunch of bars, you hit them with things

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Speaker 1: with like a mallet um. It really will make everyone

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Speaker 1: know that I'm like not, I don't know much about jazz.

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Speaker 1: It's a very major jazz instrument of the time. It's

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Speaker 1: case called the vibes, right, Yeah, they're cool, they sound

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Speaker 1: really cool. He was also really into Heroin. I didn't

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Speaker 1: have to look up heroin. That makes whatever. Okay. This

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Speaker 1: wasn't as good for him as playing vibraphone was. He

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Speaker 1: went to prison. He was still a teenager when he

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Speaker 1: went to prison. And when he was in prison, he

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Speaker 1: quit Cold Turkey. Um. During his stay in the prison

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Speaker 1: hospital for the aforementioned quit Heroin Cold Turkey, which put

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Speaker 1: him in the hospital, because that's one thing that happens

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Speaker 1: if you quit Heroin Cold Turkey. Thank you, prison industrial complex. Um.

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Speaker 1: He started doing art therapy and he learned to love painting,

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Speaker 1: so he gets out of prison. There's conflicting stories about

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Speaker 1: whether or not he got back on heroin, but that's

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Speaker 1: not my or anyone's business. Um. When he got out

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Speaker 1: of prison, he was really into art now and painting.

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Speaker 1: And then he met the anarchists and Ben Maria and

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Speaker 1: the Up against the Wall motherfucker's. They're like these like

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Speaker 1: really raucous anarchists, like kind of like you, the listener

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Speaker 1: who's not super familiar might like expect of the archists,

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Speaker 1: like they're gonna like wear all black and ski masks

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Speaker 1: and like carry round switchblades and like scream revolution and ship.

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Speaker 1: They're close to the media conception of anarchists, right, that's

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Speaker 1: not the anarchists that Ben met. And this is really

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Speaker 1: cool to me. He met the pacifists. Oh, he met

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Speaker 1: really fucking based anarcho pacifists. Specifically, he met Judith Mullane

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Speaker 1: and Julian Beck, who are the anarcho pacifists who founded

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Speaker 1: a place called the Living Theater, which is still around.

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Speaker 1: It's an experimental art theater as the oldest experimental theater

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Speaker 1: in the United States. It does really amazing ship. We'll

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Speaker 1: talk a little bit about it. Let's just talk about

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Speaker 1: them now because I like them. Uh. Judith Mullaine was

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Speaker 1: a German Jewish immigrant. Her parents had come over when

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Speaker 1: she was like three, bringing her with her. There were

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Speaker 1: some of the first people, well not the first people,

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Speaker 1: but they were in the earlier waves of people being

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Speaker 1: like this is this isn't gonna go. Well, it's this

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Speaker 1: whole Nazi thing is it's a little bit concerning. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: like it's not really the place for us, And they

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Speaker 1: got the funk out and Julian Beck and her husband

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Speaker 1: um or sorry, Judith Mullaine and her husband, Julianne Beck,

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Speaker 1: we're in an open marriage. He was bisexual, or queer

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Speaker 1: or whatever. And I think this is part of why

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Speaker 1: they were in this open relationship is good. He wanted

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Speaker 1: to also funck dudes. He had his own boyfriend outside

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Speaker 1: the marriage. But also the couple were in a triad

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Speaker 1: with like yet another guy that's like doc worker guy

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Speaker 1: who was also married to someone else. Glad, glad to

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Speaker 1: see anarchism no matter where you are in what time period,

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Speaker 1: never changes. No, dear listener, you did not invent polyamory.

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Speaker 1: They were a fucking polyamorous Polly Cuel queer anarchist theater couple.

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Speaker 1: Ever changes, and and this is part of just makes

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Speaker 1: me happy in six after all of the stuff we're

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Speaker 1: going to talk about, he's the villainous preacher in the

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Speaker 1: movie Poltergeist too, Oh my god, because he's an actor, right.

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Speaker 1: He actually he died the year before the movie came out.

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Speaker 1: After he died, but and he wrote a ton of books,

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Speaker 1: mostly poetry, some about Feeder itself. Judith, this is my

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Speaker 1: favorite part. She played Granny in The Adams Family, the

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Speaker 1: crazy awesome like witch Crone Lady. She's also been on

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Speaker 1: like the Sopranos and a bunch of other ship and

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Speaker 1: this matters to be because like, this is the original Crone,

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Speaker 1: which from my childhood right, I was exactly the right

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Speaker 1: age to be really excited about the Adams family. And

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Speaker 1: Granny Frump from the Adams Family was the first Crone

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Speaker 1: I've ever met seen was played by polyamorous anarchist Drew,

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Speaker 1: who fled the Nazis at the age of three. Oh,

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Speaker 1: we love to see it, Okay, So to talk more

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Speaker 1: about how well this couple is. At one point they

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Speaker 1: got arrested for not paying their taxes, and their argument

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Speaker 1: was basically like, we don't want to pay taxes. The

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Speaker 1: government's bad and for anyone at home who is playing

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Speaker 1: cool people did cool stuff bingo. They represented themselves in court,

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Speaker 1: which is not my recommendation, to be clear, but I

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Speaker 1: will say a disproportionate number of the kind of people

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Speaker 1: who get written about like this represent themselves in court.

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Speaker 1: In this case, she dressed up like a Shakespeare character court.

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Speaker 1: I'm not, like, I wasn't a big theater kid, so

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Speaker 1: I don't it's like Merchant of Venice costume. But I

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Speaker 1: don't actually know what that means, you know. And they

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Speaker 1: also kept getting arrested over and over again for like

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Speaker 1: one thing. They get arrested over and over again for

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Speaker 1: it was indecent exposure because they did experimental theater and

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Speaker 1: a lot of their plays in bolth, nudity and a

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Speaker 1: lot of the stuff that I think that people take

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Speaker 1: for granted while we can no longer take for granted.

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Speaker 1: Thinks the way that whatever the way that the right

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Speaker 1: wing is trying to push things. You know, you get

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Speaker 1: arrested for having to play where some of the actors

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Speaker 1: were naked and um so they got arrested a lot.

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Speaker 1: The Living Theater is still around. It's one of the

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Speaker 1: oldest experimental it's the oldest experimental theater in the US.

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Speaker 1: It tours, it performs on the streets. It's performs in

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Speaker 1: prisons and stuff for prisoners, and basically they try to

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Speaker 1: undermine authority and content and form. I think they're fucking swell.

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Speaker 1: It's possible that the first organizing medians I went to

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Speaker 1: as a baby radical in New York City were at

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Speaker 1: the Living Theater, but I I'm not certain. I know

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Speaker 1: it was at a theater, at a weird experimental theater.

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure, But to be fair, this is anarchist

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Speaker 1: New York. There could be a lot of those totally

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Speaker 1: so Ben Murrayam the crazy jazz loving Painter street kid,

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Speaker 1: meets them, they teach him anarchism. He got real into it.

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Speaker 1: The passive ism didn't rub off. Instead, he started hanging

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Speaker 1: out with what he refers to as the political wing

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Speaker 1: of the anarchists, which I think is in contrast to

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Speaker 1: the art anarchists like veterans from the fucking Spanish Civil

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Speaker 1: War who are on their like sixties and ship and

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Speaker 1: he's like in his early twenties. He starts going to

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Speaker 1: political discussions at the house of this other guy, Murray

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Speaker 1: book Chin. Mm hmm. Murray book Chin is famous for

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Speaker 1: two things. Murray book Chin is famous first, and probably

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Speaker 1: more importantly, his concept of municipal libertarianism is what inspired

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Speaker 1: the Kurdish concept of democratic and federalism, the system that

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Speaker 1: a few million people are trying to live under in

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Speaker 1: northern Syria today right very influential in the lower leftist,

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Speaker 1: the you know, anti authoritarian left in the world. The

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Speaker 1: other more important thing about Murray Bookchin is that people

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Speaker 1: who really like him tag read Murray Bookchin on walls

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Speaker 1: and I think that's funny, literally constantly. My other favorite

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Speaker 1: bush and thing is just He's just so grouchy the time.

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Speaker 1: This is just his like he I don't know, like

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Speaker 1: I feel like this is kind of like the art

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Speaker 1: of public access television. It's like it's sort of like

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Speaker 1: a lost art now. But you could just be on

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Speaker 1: TV being unbelievably cranky all the time. Yeah, yeah, they're

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Speaker 1: TV show, and he like, like specifically, one of the

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Speaker 1: things he would do was he would go on public

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Speaker 1: Access TV and ranch about how Bertie Sanders had sold

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Speaker 1: out the movement after like the three after he won

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Speaker 1: a election because three specific anarchists voted for him, because

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Speaker 1: it's it's amazing, Yeah, okay, cool. So Marie bucktions this

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Speaker 1: character who runs throughout twentieth century anarchism and radical politics,

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Speaker 1: and he and he and Ben Mariam meet on repeated basis.

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Speaker 1: But Ben's not really a big fan of politics, and

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Speaker 1: so Ben would show up to these discussions and then

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Speaker 1: he get annoyed at them for being like hopelessly stuck

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Speaker 1: in bullshit theory instead of like doing action. So he

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Speaker 1: would stand up and call them all bourgeois white honkys,

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Speaker 1: Ben is a white as well important understanding this, and

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Speaker 1: then storm out. But then he'd be back the next

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Speaker 1: day for the discussion again, and probably more importantly to

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Speaker 1: our story, he did what any anarchist artsy type would do.

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Speaker 1: He got together with some friends. They started attacking the

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Speaker 1: bourgeois art world. They called this group black Mask. They

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Speaker 1: aren't sure if they started nineteen sixty five or nineteen

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Speaker 1: sixty six. Is a man after my own heart right here?

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Speaker 1: Why remember things when instead you could just not remember things,

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Speaker 1: always living in the moment, to be fair as sixty

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Speaker 1: years ago. One of their first big actions is Black Mask,

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Speaker 1: is that they shut down the Museum of Modern Art

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Speaker 1: the moment. And they did it too because, to quote

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Speaker 1: Ben Quote, the museum and gallery system separated art from

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Speaker 1: that living interchange and had nothing to do with the

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Speaker 1: vital creative urge. Museums weren't a living house. They were

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Speaker 1: just a repository. Because this is like that, they're just

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Speaker 1: like on his anti art kick right there, like fuck

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Speaker 1: the mainstream art world, fuck the commodification of art. We're

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Speaker 1: gonna we're gonna fight it. And the way they shut

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Speaker 1: down the moment is really clever. They printed up a

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Speaker 1: manifesto about how they're going to come funk up the museum.

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Speaker 1: Quote on Monday October tent at twelve thirty, we will

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Speaker 1: close the Museum of Modern Art. This action has taken

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Speaker 1: at a time when America is on a path of

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Speaker 1: total destruction and signals the opening of another front in

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Speaker 1: the worldwide struggle against suppression. We seek a total revolution,

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Speaker 1: cultural as well as social and political. Let the struggle begins,

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Speaker 1: very Let the struggle begins in all caps, of course.

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Speaker 1: So the moment closed an anticipation of their arrival, which

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Speaker 1: was their point all along. They closed the moment, and

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Speaker 1: the manifesto they printed and distribute about it talks about

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Speaker 1: their struggle within in the context of black liberation. And

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Speaker 1: this is gonna be some of this stuff that I

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Speaker 1: would like try and piece out to the best of

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Speaker 1: my white ability, white historian ability. Six years later, the

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Speaker 1: opening line of the manifesto is a new spirit is rising.

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Speaker 1: Like the streets of Watts we burn with revolution. And

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Speaker 1: it's kind of presumptuous, right. They're mostly these white kids

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Speaker 1: in black mask. At this point, I've had a hard

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Speaker 1: time figuring out the makeup of black Mask and the

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Speaker 1: motherfucker's uh. They mostly get talked about as a white group,

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Speaker 1: but if you read the history, it seems like by

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Speaker 1: the end they were actually primarily Puerto Rican and Puerto

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Speaker 1: Rican race and ethnicity especially at this time, which were

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Speaker 1: could talk about in a future episode when we talk

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Speaker 1: about the Young Lords. Plays very strangely into the white

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Speaker 1: and black assumptions about race um within the United States

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Speaker 1: at the time, and I don't know at the time,

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Speaker 1: I believe white black mask was primarily white group. I

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Speaker 1: can't really cleanly do an ad transition right now because

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Speaker 1: I can't. I'm sorry, But now you, dear listener, are

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Speaker 1: going to be subjected to exactly the kind of thing

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Speaker 1: that the protagonists of today's show feel very negatively about,

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Speaker 1: which is the commodification of entertainment. I hope that the

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Speaker 1: irony is interesting to you. It is to me, and

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Speaker 1: we're back as if nothing ever happened anyway. So they

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Speaker 1: tie their struggle in in this particular way, and it's um,

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Speaker 1: I'm only beginning to wrap my head around race relations

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Speaker 1: in late sixties radical movements. I've been trying for a

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Speaker 1: very long time, right, but it it doesn't map cleanly

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Speaker 1: or nicely to current conceptions of race. Are racial politics

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Speaker 1: within the United States and within the left. Black struggle

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Speaker 1: at the time was moving towards a black nationalist approach

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Speaker 1: and away from sort of a liberal multiculturalist approach. And

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Speaker 1: it seems like in a lot of ways white radicals

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Speaker 1: were being challenged to throw their lot in with black struggle,

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Speaker 1: but in separate ways. Right. Um, So their methods here

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Speaker 1: seem to be actually fairly scepted within the black radical

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Speaker 1: community at least Apong the Black Panthers and stuff will

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Speaker 1: talk about the relationship with the Black Panthers and a

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Speaker 1: little bit. But I'm not trying or maybe it was

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Speaker 1: all terrible and I'm not trying to like say it's

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Speaker 1: above approach. I'm just kind of pointing out some contradictions.

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Speaker 1: So Black Mask they continue to do anti art stuff.

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Speaker 1: They disrupt exhibitions and galleries and lectures. They're basically like

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Speaker 1: kind of doing the whole thing experimentally. They're like, oh,

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Speaker 1: I wonder if this works. They're not like sitting around

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Speaker 1: planning really carefully. They're just like, like, you want to

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Speaker 1: go funk that thing up, Like I want to suck

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Speaker 1: that sting up. Whatever. They figure as artists their job

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Speaker 1: was to attack the infrastructure of art with a capital

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Speaker 1: a how it fueled the war machine and bourgeois culture

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Speaker 1: more broadly. At one point they disrupted an art lecture

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Speaker 1: at NYU and the professor challenged Ben to a debate,

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Speaker 1: and Ben was like, yeah, sure, I'll debate you. But

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Speaker 1: then the whole thing was getting set up is this

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Speaker 1: like elitist closed event, which was exactly the kind of

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Speaker 1: thing that Ben hated. So Black Mask went around and

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Speaker 1: distributed flyers saying that the actually the event was free

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Speaker 1: and that everyone was invited into debate and there would

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Speaker 1: be free food and booze, and NYU had to block

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Speaker 1: off like streets, like blocks and blocks in order to

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Speaker 1: keep the public from attending the debate. It kind of

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Speaker 1: turned into a riot outside, which is sucking cool because

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Speaker 1: anti art art stuff all very complicated. But I don't know, whatever,

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Speaker 1: if you're gonna sucking debate someone, yeah that that definitely

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Speaker 1: using the debate to start a riot just seems like

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Speaker 1: the best way to possibly do a debate. Actually, I

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Speaker 1: feel like there's there's other times where like you're doing

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Speaker 1: a debate and you walk up and it's a trap

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Speaker 1: and you've you have now trapped they've always wanted to do. Yeah, well,

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Speaker 1: and it's interesting too write because like they're not necessarily

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Speaker 1: coming at like the right wing in this case, right

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Speaker 1: they're coming at the bourgeois world. And so it's like,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's like, right now, we talk about debate,

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Speaker 1: and it's usually the like kind of right wing being like,

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Speaker 1: debate us about whether or not trans people are alive. Know,

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Speaker 1: I'm like, no, I don't really want to. I don't

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Speaker 1: want to debate you about that. But like if someone

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Speaker 1: was like, I don't know, debate me anarchism versus of

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Speaker 1: social democracy or something, that's like an interesting debate that

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Speaker 1: could be had. Right, I'm not volunteering MIAs volunteering anyone.

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Speaker 1: MIA says that that should unless I really don't like you,

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Speaker 1: which case any trap, you've already played your hand here,

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Speaker 1: all right, yeah, you know, not very good at this

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Speaker 1: whole time I organized the riot. No, I won't. I

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Speaker 1: would never do that, Okay. So they started doing all

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Speaker 1: this stuff, and then after they started doing stuff, they

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Speaker 1: started publishing a magazine. I believe that was their belief

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Speaker 1: was that you should go in that order pointed out there.

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Speaker 1: It was a four page periodical called Black Mask, and

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Speaker 1: it ostensibly cost fifties five cents, which is about fifty

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Speaker 1: cents now, but they didn't actually charge money at all.

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Speaker 1: Their point was if we put free on it, people

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Speaker 1: will take it and throw it away. If we put

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Speaker 1: five cents on it, people will be like, here's five cents,

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Speaker 1: and then they'll be like, no, we don't need your

424
00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:04,000
Speaker 1: five cents. But someone has to actually like kind of

425
00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:06,080
Speaker 1: want it so it won't just get thrown away. It's

426
00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:10,600
Speaker 1: actually very clever, and I get really excited about radical

427
00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:12,879
Speaker 1: publishing and and this magazine that they put out was

428
00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:16,200
Speaker 1: really cool and one of the better books that you

429
00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:18,520
Speaker 1: can get is there's anthologies. I think it's also called

430
00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:20,960
Speaker 1: Up against Black Masking, Up against the Wall, motherfucker. I

431
00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:24,040
Speaker 1: think PM Press puts it out. It's just their journals, right,

432
00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:25,880
Speaker 1: it's the stuff that they put out. And the first

433
00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:28,400
Speaker 1: issue who to use as an example that three articles,

434
00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:32,639
Speaker 1: and the first was their manifesto for attacking the MoMA

435
00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:35,640
Speaker 1: and then another anarchist from Seattle's like critique of their

436
00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:38,920
Speaker 1: dumb bullshit action and then their response about why it

437
00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:42,560
Speaker 1: wasn't dumb in bullshit. I'm kind of in between the two.

438
00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:44,760
Speaker 1: I think they're both right. And the second was a

439
00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:47,720
Speaker 1: ten year old interview with Camue about how art for

440
00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:50,840
Speaker 1: art's sake is bullshit. But how art can't be entirely

441
00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:54,040
Speaker 1: subsumed to struggle And you've gotta like, um do the

442
00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:57,800
Speaker 1: secret third thing to use the modern way of referring

443
00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:00,320
Speaker 1: to it. And the third article was a call for

444
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:02,640
Speaker 1: action and mutual aid to support black struggle and civil

445
00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:05,440
Speaker 1: rights and Alabama reprinted from SNICK, which is, you know

446
00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:08,200
Speaker 1: the student Non Violent Coordinating Committee that we talked about

447
00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:11,040
Speaker 1: in December. Who around this time, you're about to um

448
00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:13,640
Speaker 1: come out with the whole black power thing and black

449
00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:18,240
Speaker 1: panthers are gonna start showing up. So their magazine is

450
00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:22,000
Speaker 1: information about what they're doing, engaging in public debate, about

451
00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:23,640
Speaker 1: what they're doing with people who are on the same

452
00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:27,000
Speaker 1: side as them, right, more about their broader philosophical approach

453
00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:29,560
Speaker 1: to art and how to be directly engaged in supporting

454
00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:33,239
Speaker 1: black struggle, even when that struggle uses different tactics than

455
00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:36,320
Speaker 1: these anarchists might have personally advocated, Like it talks about

456
00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:39,159
Speaker 1: sucking voting. I really like this magazine. They put out

457
00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:43,240
Speaker 1: ten issues between nineteen sixty six and nine. They distributed

458
00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:46,480
Speaker 1: mostly on the Lower East Side, where people were like

459
00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:49,760
Speaker 1: into the magazine. Um, sometimes they went uptown to sell it.

460
00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:53,000
Speaker 1: But that was just a funk with people, you know, like,

461
00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:57,160
Speaker 1: let's go be antagonistic. It's all magazine called Black Mask.

462
00:25:57,200 --> 00:25:59,600
Speaker 1: But how we're going to come to destroyer shitty world

463
00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:02,520
Speaker 1: or whatever. But that that seems like a really good time.

464
00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:06,680
Speaker 1: I know, they kind of just had a lot of fun.

465
00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:12,640
Speaker 1: That's like it. Really they're they're complicated, but I really,

466
00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:14,520
Speaker 1: I mean whatever, of course I put them on my show.

467
00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:18,240
Speaker 1: I clearly think they're cool. The most iconic image of

468
00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:21,440
Speaker 1: this period when they're Black Mask is them marching on

469
00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:23,920
Speaker 1: Wall Street. They're wearing black ski masks and they're holding

470
00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:26,320
Speaker 1: fake skulls on sticks, and they have a sign that

471
00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:29,439
Speaker 1: says Wall Street is War Street. They passed out flyers

472
00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:32,080
Speaker 1: because of course they did, and those flyers announced that

473
00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:34,080
Speaker 1: the name of the street was to change to War Street.

474
00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:37,400
Speaker 1: And I personally think in their legacy we should continue

475
00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:39,280
Speaker 1: to try and push that Wall Street is War Street.

476
00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:42,560
Speaker 1: They kept sucking with the art world. One time, this

477
00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:46,520
Speaker 1: poet Ken Coke was doing a reading in ninety seven,

478
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:49,240
Speaker 1: and he was the symbol of the bourgeois poetry world

479
00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:51,919
Speaker 1: at the time. A lot of people really like him.

480
00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:55,720
Speaker 1: If you read his Wikipedia page. It's just like clearly

481
00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:58,680
Speaker 1: written by someone who really really likes him, and the

482
00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:02,080
Speaker 1: talk page is like, why is this Wikipedia page written

483
00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:03,960
Speaker 1: by someone who clearly just likes him and was leaving

484
00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:06,080
Speaker 1: out all of it's like just his side of everything,

485
00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:07,880
Speaker 1: and it's about how he's great and like he uses

486
00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:14,160
Speaker 1: all these anyway, Ken Coke. Some of the Black Mask

487
00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:15,960
Speaker 1: people were like, well, let's go funk with him. We

488
00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:18,360
Speaker 1: don't like him. He's the symbol of the bourgeoire world.

489
00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:22,119
Speaker 1: And you know how when people throw pies at politicians,

490
00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:23,800
Speaker 1: it's like a fun gag, but in also in some

491
00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:27,000
Speaker 1: ways it's like a simulated dissassination. You know, it's like

492
00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:30,159
Speaker 1: a we can get to you, you know, like the

493
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:34,400
Speaker 1: Pietro and thing that wasn't literal enough for Black Mask.

494
00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:40,760
Speaker 1: Oh no. So one of the Black Mask folks, his

495
00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:43,440
Speaker 1: name is Alan van new Kirk. He was the most

496
00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:46,760
Speaker 1: anarchy looking of them all. He got picked for this

497
00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:50,280
Speaker 1: role because he looked like the cliche anarchist. He was

498
00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:54,280
Speaker 1: this like gun toting, black wearing biker who was like

499
00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:57,639
Speaker 1: tall and gaunt and had just fled Detroit after starting

500
00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:01,159
Speaker 1: a similar newspaper up there called gorilla Um spelled you know,

501
00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:05,479
Speaker 1: like the War, which included poetry by Diane Deprima, who

502
00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:07,480
Speaker 1: rules in one day. I'm gonna just talk about my

503
00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:11,679
Speaker 1: favorite poet, Dianne Deprima, who wrote Revolutionary Letters Um has

504
00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:13,840
Speaker 1: one of my favorite poems in it. She worked with

505
00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:16,080
Speaker 1: the Diggers in San Francisco in nineteen sixties, which you

506
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:17,720
Speaker 1: can listen more about in her episode on the Diggers

507
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:20,240
Speaker 1: and the Levelers, which we did last year. Anyway, Alan

508
00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:23,800
Speaker 1: van Newkirk, since he looked the most proper classic cartoon

509
00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:27,280
Speaker 1: villain fall and lanky, wearing all black, they printed up

510
00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:30,520
Speaker 1: some leaflet saying poetry is Revolution with a photo of

511
00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:34,280
Speaker 1: the poet Amry Baraka and handcuffs and wounded by cops.

512
00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:36,200
Speaker 1: Because here was a poet who actually like throws down

513
00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:39,080
Speaker 1: and cares about struggle. And you know, in comparison to

514
00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:43,200
Speaker 1: this dude ken Coke, Alan loads some blanks into a pistol,

515
00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:48,760
Speaker 1: goes to his poetry reading, stands up and fucking shoots him.

516
00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:55,120
Speaker 1: Did he get injured? But and here's a funny thing,

517
00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:58,400
Speaker 1: depending on what you read, the way I end up

518
00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:00,840
Speaker 1: reading ken Coke's Wikipedia is in one of the books

519
00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:05,800
Speaker 1: about him about this event. The book is like, but

520
00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:08,400
Speaker 1: that's not what the Wikipedia page says. But I think

521
00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:12,080
Speaker 1: that was written by someone who really likes Ken Coke. Anyway, up,

522
00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:19,120
Speaker 1: they shoot him and he probably faints, and so everyone's like,

523
00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:24,080
Speaker 1: oh fuck, he's dead. Everyone starts freaking out. The black

524
00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:28,479
Speaker 1: mask people throw fucking flyers around, screaming revolution, and then

525
00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:32,800
Speaker 1: run screaming out into the night. The version on his

526
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:35,320
Speaker 1: Wikipedia page that's referenced again in this book is that

527
00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:39,040
Speaker 1: Alan did not faint, looked at them and said, oh,

528
00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:44,080
Speaker 1: grow up. Either way, they simulate assassinate this poet. I

529
00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:47,880
Speaker 1: don't actually i'm coming on as neutral about this. I'm not.

530
00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:52,280
Speaker 1: I'm not being like this was a morally good decision

531
00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:56,760
Speaker 1: they all made whatever. Yeah, I mean, like I don't know,

532
00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:59,240
Speaker 1: because like you you actually can kill, like or like

533
00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:01,960
Speaker 1: severely injured someone by shooting blanks at them like that.

534
00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:04,800
Speaker 1: That is an actual thing. Yeah, I mean they're like,

535
00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:07,360
Speaker 1: they're they're far enough away, they're not like it's not

536
00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:11,320
Speaker 1: like I think it's like prettier. Yeah, but no, it

537
00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:16,480
Speaker 1: it it's traumatizing a ship for every outside of kind

538
00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:22,880
Speaker 1: of funny because yeah, you know, I'm not casting the

539
00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:27,000
Speaker 1: stones here. They were polarizing for some strange reason. It's

540
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:30,280
Speaker 1: hard for me to imagine exactly why their actions and

541
00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:33,360
Speaker 1: words drew lots of new supporters, and their ideas behind

542
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:36,040
Speaker 1: total revolution were infectious. The idea that revolution need to

543
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 1: be cultural as well as political, and and also that

544
00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:42,200
Speaker 1: you couldn't just have cultural change like some of the

545
00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:45,800
Speaker 1: dropout hippies were saying, you also needed political change. The

546
00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:48,920
Speaker 1: political hippies didn't like them because they were too political.

547
00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:53,360
Speaker 1: The super serious, no smiling radicals, especially the Marxist Landness,

548
00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:56,760
Speaker 1: didn't like them because they were too weird. And the

549
00:30:56,840 --> 00:31:00,680
Speaker 1: good proper communists, you know, they were like, they were like, look,

550
00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:02,640
Speaker 1: you're against the U. S. War machine and for the

551
00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:06,320
Speaker 1: Vietnamese people, but you're not directly supporting the North Vietnamese

552
00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:10,000
Speaker 1: government either, so you're terrible. And in the art world,

553
00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:12,280
Speaker 1: of course, is like, yeah, we don't know these guys.

554
00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:14,520
Speaker 1: They're not with us. No ridea where they came in from,

555
00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:19,800
Speaker 1: which meant that the people who didn't fit in anywhere,

556
00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:22,320
Speaker 1: the radicals who wanted to see a different world, who

557
00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:25,640
Speaker 1: didn't fit in anywhere, drifted towards black mask and Ben

558
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:28,400
Speaker 1: Morea gets called the informal leader of all this stuff,

559
00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:33,200
Speaker 1: and I think that's both true and not true. Whenever

560
00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:36,200
Speaker 1: you're doing a bunch of like cool crime stuff, sometimes

561
00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:38,320
Speaker 1: you don't really want to take credit for it. And

562
00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:41,360
Speaker 1: so sometimes the leaders in this kind of situation are

563
00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:43,680
Speaker 1: as much like the fall guy as a formal leader.

564
00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:46,760
Speaker 1: And so when I say, like Ben Morea started a magazine,

565
00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:48,800
Speaker 1: it wasn't him. As three people started a magazine, he

566
00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:50,280
Speaker 1: was one of them, and he's the one who like

567
00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:54,480
Speaker 1: talks about it a lot, And they were very informal.

568
00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:58,280
Speaker 1: They didn't have like visioning meetings, official membership or hierarchy

569
00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:01,960
Speaker 1: any of that stuff. Um, but you know who does

570
00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:09,080
Speaker 1: have official hierarchy? Actually, you know, capitalism is sometimes kind

571
00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:14,760
Speaker 1: of enough very hierarchical in this weird way. Yeah, I

572
00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:16,600
Speaker 1: mean like in terms of formal Yeah. No, And I

573
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:20,800
Speaker 1: have really come off Okay, I'm gonna like, I know,

574
00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:22,600
Speaker 1: I just like talked about like, oh it's cool, I

575
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:24,400
Speaker 1: all ran round had guns, And I'm gonna do this

576
00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:26,760
Speaker 1: like serious thing for a moment, like actual serious thing

577
00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:31,360
Speaker 1: where I am now a very staunch I've always been.

578
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:33,239
Speaker 1: I've always believed in gun safety. But you're all going

579
00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:34,560
Speaker 1: to be hearing way too much of it from me.

580
00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:37,800
Speaker 1: For a while. If you own firearms, they need to

581
00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:40,520
Speaker 1: be locked up. If they're not on your person. I

582
00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:42,720
Speaker 1: don't care. I don't care what your reasoning is. I

583
00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:44,720
Speaker 1: don't care what your excuses. If you're gone is not

584
00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:46,960
Speaker 1: on you. It needs to be locked up or it

585
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:49,600
Speaker 1: cannot be accessed by people who should not access that firearm.

586
00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:54,680
Speaker 1: That's my super seriousness miling thing for today and probably

587
00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:58,080
Speaker 1: for a while. So yeah, if you're going to make

588
00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:03,840
Speaker 1: that decision to armed, you need to do that. That's

589
00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:09,320
Speaker 1: my ad, the ad for gun safety. I guess there's

590
00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:13,479
Speaker 1: probably actual ads for that too. Whatever, here's some other

591
00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:21,000
Speaker 1: ads and we're back. Another cool thing about black Mask

592
00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:24,760
Speaker 1: is it's where the term affinity groups comes from. Oh really, yeah,

593
00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:28,960
Speaker 1: well it's where it comes into English. Uh. There's this

594
00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:31,320
Speaker 1: model that a lot of people who participate in various

595
00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:33,440
Speaker 1: street protests use, and also a lot of other like

596
00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:36,640
Speaker 1: ways of trying to change the world called affinity groups,

597
00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:38,920
Speaker 1: where you basically like it's like your crew of friends

598
00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:41,800
Speaker 1: and you do stuff together. Um, and it's usually somewhat informal,

599
00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:44,400
Speaker 1: but you have like shared affinity and you're a group

600
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:46,840
Speaker 1: of people and you go out and accomplish things in

601
00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:49,080
Speaker 1: that way, and it's a very effective system. And it's

602
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:50,680
Speaker 1: like part of the way that if you want to

603
00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:54,160
Speaker 1: be very effective in demonstrations, get yourself an affinity group. UM,

604
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:57,280
Speaker 1: that's the add I should have done. Whatever it comes

605
00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:01,240
Speaker 1: mostly from or it comes into came to them through

606
00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:03,680
Speaker 1: the Spanish anarchist who are part of the Spanish Civil War.

607
00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:06,320
Speaker 1: But basically at one of these like talks with Murray

608
00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:10,359
Speaker 1: book and the public news public TV anchor who rants

609
00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:15,480
Speaker 1: about Bernie Sanders, basically he was like, and we show

610
00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:20,320
Speaker 1: all call ourselves group off a sinada or odd and

611
00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:24,880
Speaker 1: then like and everyone's like, we could probably use the

612
00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:27,200
Speaker 1: word affinity groups, and Murray Bookchin is like, no, it

613
00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:30,640
Speaker 1: must be the Spanish um. And they were like, okay,

614
00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:34,160
Speaker 1: but we're not gonna And and actually I ran across

615
00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:38,759
Speaker 1: three different and three different fucking books exactly what the

616
00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:43,560
Speaker 1: word that was being translated as affinity groups was like

617
00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:47,879
Speaker 1: in Spanish. And I don't fucking know because there's three

618
00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:53,240
Speaker 1: different fucking things. So I'm just gonna call them affinity

619
00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:58,279
Speaker 1: groups and two black mask. An affinity group was a

620
00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:02,200
Speaker 1: street gang with an analysis. More modern usage is, of course,

621
00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:04,280
Speaker 1: a group of friends who worked together to accomplish stuff,

622
00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:06,960
Speaker 1: usually as part of a part of, but autonomous from

623
00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:11,400
Speaker 1: a larger movement. One more thing they did before they

624
00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:13,520
Speaker 1: stopped being Black Mask, and then we're gonna make everyone

625
00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:17,040
Speaker 1: wait on a cliffhanger. It's not very I I spoiled

626
00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:20,879
Speaker 1: my own cliffhanger. Black Mask is on the scene. They're

627
00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:24,320
Speaker 1: doing their thing. It's nineteen sixty seven. I don't know

628
00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:27,440
Speaker 1: if you knew about this, but um, the US was

629
00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:30,800
Speaker 1: invading other countries in the middle of the twentieth century.

630
00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:33,560
Speaker 1: It only happened the one time gets called the Vietnam War,

631
00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:36,560
Speaker 1: probably only lasted a year or so. I think that

632
00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:39,680
Speaker 1: all the whole thing is sarcasm. Vietnam War had been

633
00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:42,040
Speaker 1: going on for more than a decade in nineteen sixty seven.

634
00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:45,319
Speaker 1: The war for civil rights was raging at home. Sit

635
00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:47,080
Speaker 1: ins were happening. We talked about a lot of that.

636
00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:51,040
Speaker 1: In December, Black and White freedom writers have gone into

637
00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:52,759
Speaker 1: the South to registered voters and were met with the

638
00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:56,120
Speaker 1: organized armed violence of the Ku Klux Klan. Vietnamese monks

639
00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:58,800
Speaker 1: were setting themselves on fire to protest the US bombs.

640
00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:02,040
Speaker 1: Just the year for a black veteran, James Meredith had

641
00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:04,319
Speaker 1: been shot as part of his March Against Fear, which

642
00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:08,240
Speaker 1: again we also covered. Um, and you've got this hippie

643
00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:11,560
Speaker 1: thing going on. At the same time, the Lower east

644
00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:14,400
Speaker 1: Side was a major haven for what gets called the hippies.

645
00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:17,200
Speaker 1: The name is a media construction by and large. Malcolm

646
00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:19,600
Speaker 1: X said in his autobiography that the word was coined

647
00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:23,239
Speaker 1: in Harlem in the nineties for white people who tried

648
00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:26,200
Speaker 1: to act blacker than black people did. And a lot

649
00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:28,880
Speaker 1: of people who get called the hippies at this time period,

650
00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:31,359
Speaker 1: they didn't call themselves hippie as they talked about hip

651
00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:35,680
Speaker 1: culture and counterculture, or called themselves freaks or did all

652
00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:39,359
Speaker 1: of these. They basically all hated the word hippie, and um,

653
00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:42,919
Speaker 1: I would have to if that was where I lived.

654
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:48,160
Speaker 1: And then um, the motherfucker's in particular we will talk

655
00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:51,880
Speaker 1: about to the black mask evolves into spoiler alert, they

656
00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:56,319
Speaker 1: called themselves freaks rather than hippies. So these freaks or whatever,

657
00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:58,440
Speaker 1: they pour into the Lower east Side because they're all

658
00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:01,040
Speaker 1: dropping out of the mainstream society, instream white society. So

659
00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:03,640
Speaker 1: all these white kids are pouring into Lower east Side,

660
00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:08,319
Speaker 1: which is I'm gonna go complicated. If people have more

661
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:11,000
Speaker 1: negative things to say about that. I'm fully here for that.

662
00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:15,040
Speaker 1: They weren't buying large. Okay, this depends on who you ask.

663
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:19,279
Speaker 1: Oh boy, they weren't either. They weren't buying large hanging

664
00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:21,759
Speaker 1: out with their new Puerto Rican neighbors, or some of

665
00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:26,480
Speaker 1: them were, or everyone was getting along fine. I expect

666
00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:29,400
Speaker 1: that by and large, the especially a political white hippies

667
00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:34,040
Speaker 1: were probably not interacting with the Puerto rican um culture

668
00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:37,520
Speaker 1: that they moved into, and they were mostly just trying

669
00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:39,359
Speaker 1: to live somewhere where rent was cheap and no one

670
00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:40,960
Speaker 1: gave a ship if they like, smoked wheat and hung

671
00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:46,359
Speaker 1: out in parks all day. And yeah, that is one

672
00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:50,520
Speaker 1: of the messy dark parts about hippie history. A lot

673
00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:53,239
Speaker 1: of these freaks are artists. Some of them started calling

674
00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:55,600
Speaker 1: for artists to get more involved in politics, and in

675
00:37:55,719 --> 00:37:59,279
Speaker 1: particular they wanted to stop the Vietnam War going on

676
00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:02,920
Speaker 1: for that fucking kid. And if you listen to Ben

677
00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:05,080
Speaker 1: talk about it now, he points out that one thing

678
00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:08,200
Speaker 1: that people don't quite understand is the like um, the

679
00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:13,239
Speaker 1: urgency that the Vietnam War was felt, how by the

680
00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:16,799
Speaker 1: countercultural left, that this war was being done in their name,

681
00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:19,759
Speaker 1: and of course because there was the draft. Everyone you

682
00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:22,320
Speaker 1: know is like dying and ship but also just this

683
00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:25,560
Speaker 1: like war against the Vietnamese people being waged in your

684
00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:30,200
Speaker 1: name and a lot of people the motherfucker's included basically

685
00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:32,479
Speaker 1: were like that war is gonna stop or we're gonna

686
00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:36,080
Speaker 1: die um, and people really meant it. And that's like

687
00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:38,440
Speaker 1: some of the stuff that gets left out of more

688
00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:40,799
Speaker 1: liberal history about the hippies or more like history. That's

689
00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:42,919
Speaker 1: just like and then they did drugs and had tight

690
00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:45,680
Speaker 1: eye shirts and stuff, you know that said some of

691
00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:48,839
Speaker 1: the ways that they tried to stop the war. Let's

692
00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:55,080
Speaker 1: talk about angry Arts weak. UM flyers went up around

693
00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:58,719
Speaker 1: town calling for what got called angry Arts weak and

694
00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:01,279
Speaker 1: it started. They started having meetings to get ready. And

695
00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:03,440
Speaker 1: this is where this guy, Oshan Newman, the guy who

696
00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:06,560
Speaker 1: kind of regrets joining UM, he started hanging out at

697
00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:07,960
Speaker 1: that point because he was a painter. In the Lower

698
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:12,720
Speaker 1: East Side. There was also a quote quasi Marxist street

699
00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:14,960
Speaker 1: through the theater group called the Pageant Players, who I

700
00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:17,000
Speaker 1: can't find more information about, but I want to know

701
00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:20,160
Speaker 1: more about because they sound cool. Yeah, that's name I know.

702
00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:23,799
Speaker 1: Bread and Puppet was there also, and they rule Bread

703
00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:26,160
Speaker 1: and Puppets still exists. I've been to a bunch of

704
00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:28,440
Speaker 1: their plays. There into the idea that art should be

705
00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:30,640
Speaker 1: for the people, not only for the rich, and they're

706
00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:32,880
Speaker 1: involved in all these like cool lefty things and they

707
00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:35,719
Speaker 1: just have been forever. Um. They like go around like

708
00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:39,000
Speaker 1: they like they call their movement like the cheap art movement,

709
00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:43,680
Speaker 1: um that art should be affordable to people and stuff. Originally,

710
00:39:43,719 --> 00:39:45,319
Speaker 1: actually there was gonna be a chance that this week

711
00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:47,800
Speaker 1: was going to be fifty fifty split between the Motherfucker's

712
00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:49,440
Speaker 1: and Bread and Puppet um, just so you know how

713
00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:51,279
Speaker 1: cool Bread and Puppet is. But I didn't have time

714
00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:54,400
Speaker 1: because there's so much about the motetherfuckers, because they're really opposite.

715
00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:58,520
Speaker 1: But in working in parallel with each other anti art

716
00:39:58,640 --> 00:40:02,280
Speaker 1: and Arctic movements, none of the famous established art people

717
00:40:02,719 --> 00:40:05,720
Speaker 1: from the scene were at those meetings, just actual working

718
00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:11,920
Speaker 1: artists just for the better. Yeah, probably. And at these

719
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:14,840
Speaker 1: meetings people start saying, like, look, art should mean something,

720
00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:18,240
Speaker 1: Art should direct people towards motion, towards action, towards unfucking

721
00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:21,239
Speaker 1: the world. And this is a radical viewpoint at the time,

722
00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:25,439
Speaker 1: because avant garde was it was really big at this point,

723
00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:28,239
Speaker 1: and it was really into art for art's sake. Um,

724
00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:30,960
Speaker 1: any art that had a purpose, even if that purpose

725
00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:33,920
Speaker 1: is to arouse, like pornography was not true art with

726
00:40:34,040 --> 00:40:38,040
Speaker 1: a capital T and a capital A. That's an unbelievably

727
00:40:38,080 --> 00:40:41,200
Speaker 1: annoying way to think about art, right, I know. It's

728
00:40:41,239 --> 00:40:43,400
Speaker 1: like I should have lead with that, so you all

729
00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:46,000
Speaker 1: like better understand why they're like, let's go funk up

730
00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:49,160
Speaker 1: the galleries and ship It's it's also funny too, because

731
00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:51,879
Speaker 1: it's like, okay, like you guys have named you guys

732
00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:54,400
Speaker 1: have like you guys have named yourself like the vanguard

733
00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:57,360
Speaker 1: and the thing you're van guarding is don't do anything.

734
00:40:58,120 --> 00:41:01,319
Speaker 1: Oh my god, that's what vant guard mean, isn't it. Yeah?

735
00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:05,360
Speaker 1: Whoa the vanguard of nothing? Oh but that see that

736
00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:12,200
Speaker 1: sounds cool. I like when market learned something. Okay, but

737
00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:14,800
Speaker 1: I'm saying this is this is all based on like

738
00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:18,359
Speaker 1: a very very dem memory or something I remember David

739
00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:21,440
Speaker 1: Greeber writing like two decades ago. No, I'm sure, like

740
00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:23,680
Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm pretty sure it doesn't mean that. Yeah, No,

741
00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:26,320
Speaker 1: I I there's no part of me that doubts you.

742
00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:29,200
Speaker 1: I run into this idea all the time as a musician,

743
00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:33,960
Speaker 1: I'm in black metal, and black metal is awful and

744
00:41:34,040 --> 00:41:38,920
Speaker 1: full of terrible people, and true black metal not even

745
00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:40,840
Speaker 1: spelled with a capital T, but instead with a V

746
00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:45,560
Speaker 1: instead of a U. What, Yeah, it's true. And it's

747
00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:50,840
Speaker 1: also cult with you instead of a C instead of V.

748
00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:54,440
Speaker 1: I know letters, I'm a writer with a V instead

749
00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:57,120
Speaker 1: of a U. So cult anyway. It's supposed to be

750
00:41:57,160 --> 00:42:01,160
Speaker 1: a political and which of course means remoting rifling values

751
00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:04,440
Speaker 1: in some circles. And I don't give a ship. What

752
00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:07,239
Speaker 1: isn't isn't true art or true black metal. I just

753
00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:09,040
Speaker 1: fucking want to make the things that I want to make,

754
00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:12,200
Speaker 1: and so fuck you whatever anyway, that's my rent. So

755
00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:16,840
Speaker 1: as a counterpoint, there was this other sort of anarchic

756
00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:19,680
Speaker 1: radical round at the time, Abby Hoffman, who wrote the

757
00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:22,000
Speaker 1: book Steal This Book. He was with the Yippies. I'm

758
00:42:22,040 --> 00:42:24,640
Speaker 1: sure we'll cover him some other time, and his quote

759
00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:27,440
Speaker 1: in the Village Voice about Angry Arts Week was demanding

760
00:42:27,520 --> 00:42:31,040
Speaker 1: that artists do anti war art is demanding that chefs

761
00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:35,000
Speaker 1: cook anti war food, which sounds like a sick burn

762
00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:38,920
Speaker 1: and so you actually, like think about it. Food has

763
00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:42,560
Speaker 1: always been part of resistance movements. Um, maybe people who

764
00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:45,520
Speaker 1: are like chefs with a capital C and a V

765
00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:50,640
Speaker 1: instead of a something might not cook anti war food,

766
00:42:50,719 --> 00:42:53,919
Speaker 1: but like people in movements cook anti war food because

767
00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:56,880
Speaker 1: they're like feeding mass numbers of people as they go

768
00:42:57,000 --> 00:43:00,239
Speaker 1: off to go protest wars. And so it actually it's

769
00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:04,840
Speaker 1: exactly that. It's, well, let's get rid of chefs in

770
00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:07,160
Speaker 1: this context, right, So let's get rid of the artist

771
00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:09,880
Speaker 1: in this context. If the artist can't make anti war art,

772
00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:12,120
Speaker 1: then what's good as the artist? And this is me

773
00:43:12,280 --> 00:43:14,040
Speaker 1: arguing with someone who's been dead since I was six,

774
00:43:14,160 --> 00:43:20,200
Speaker 1: and I'm right, uh, come at me Abby Hoffman's ghost.

775
00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:24,320
Speaker 1: Except I used to believe that my one of my

776
00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:27,560
Speaker 1: teachers in school was actually secretly Abby Hoffman. Abby Hoffman,

777
00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:29,600
Speaker 1: I faked his own death and he was working at

778
00:43:29,640 --> 00:43:35,000
Speaker 1: the anyway, that's a separate story. So angry art seek

779
00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:40,520
Speaker 1: it goes on despite Abby Hoffman's misgivings. January seven, some

780
00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:43,600
Speaker 1: angry artists went to high Mass at St. Patrick's Cathedral.

781
00:43:44,520 --> 00:43:47,680
Speaker 1: The Archbishop of New York was his asshole named Francis Spellman,

782
00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:50,200
Speaker 1: who was all in on the war. Even the Pope

783
00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:53,080
Speaker 1: was like all the funk out man like pieces usually

784
00:43:54,440 --> 00:43:57,759
Speaker 1: you know, Archbishop of New York. Now, I wasn't listening

785
00:43:57,760 --> 00:43:59,960
Speaker 1: to this pope. He was like, no, we demand quote

786
00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:07,680
Speaker 1: total victory in Vietnam. Jesus Christ. Uh yeah, would not

787
00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:12,040
Speaker 1: have supported the mass bombing in Vietnam. Yeah, I don't think,

788
00:44:12,040 --> 00:44:17,840
Speaker 1: even on his bad days. So they disrupted mass. They

789
00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:21,080
Speaker 1: unfurled posters in the aisle in the middle of it. Um.

790
00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:22,680
Speaker 1: I think they like came in and sat in a

791
00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:24,400
Speaker 1: fuse and then like in the middle of mass like

792
00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:28,279
Speaker 1: unfurled posters because they're artists, and as a poster of

793
00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:30,640
Speaker 1: a main Vietnamese kid with the words Thou Shalt Not

794
00:44:30,840 --> 00:44:33,160
Speaker 1: kill and Vietnam written on it in case anyone like

795
00:44:33,239 --> 00:44:35,759
Speaker 1: didn't get the message. It was like too subtle. Look,

796
00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:39,440
Speaker 1: you know Ben Ben Ben Garrison overdoes it. But so

797
00:44:39,640 --> 00:44:42,319
Speaker 1: some sometimes you do have to just tell people what's

798
00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:45,279
Speaker 1: in the picture and what they're supposed to believe about it. Yeah, okay,

799
00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:48,560
Speaker 1: fair enough. Yeah, cops were on them immediately. They had

800
00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:51,440
Speaker 1: been tipped off. It's possible that they had infiltrators. It's

801
00:44:51,440 --> 00:44:54,279
Speaker 1: possible that these just didn't have very good op seck

802
00:44:54,360 --> 00:44:57,600
Speaker 1: and someone told someone, and someone told someone. The angry

803
00:44:57,680 --> 00:45:00,399
Speaker 1: artists got dropped off. To jail, to the tomb, which

804
00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:02,680
Speaker 1: is practically just gonna end up on the fucking cool

805
00:45:02,719 --> 00:45:05,480
Speaker 1: people did cool stuff bingo. Everyone goes to the tombs

806
00:45:05,960 --> 00:45:08,480
Speaker 1: the jail in New York that's been around for goddamn

807
00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:11,520
Speaker 1: hundred and seventy years or something. They spend the night

808
00:45:11,560 --> 00:45:13,319
Speaker 1: in jail before they're bailed out. I don't know whether

809
00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:15,200
Speaker 1: it's by the larger anti war movement or just like

810
00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:17,640
Speaker 1: specifically angry Arts funds, No one ever talks about the

811
00:45:17,680 --> 00:45:19,960
Speaker 1: cool organizing stuff. What about the people who organized the

812
00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:23,080
Speaker 1: cool fundraisers to bail out the people who made the posters?

813
00:45:23,120 --> 00:45:24,719
Speaker 1: What about the people stayed up all night making the

814
00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:27,680
Speaker 1: posters who couldn't go get arrested because they had kids

815
00:45:27,800 --> 00:45:33,080
Speaker 1: or anyway whatever. Um I'm making drawing attention to the

816
00:45:33,160 --> 00:45:34,880
Speaker 1: fact that I'm end up talking about the people who

817
00:45:34,880 --> 00:45:36,520
Speaker 1: get arrested. So the people did the cool behind the

818
00:45:36,520 --> 00:45:39,360
Speaker 1: scenes work that's more anonymous. However, if the people did

819
00:45:39,400 --> 00:45:41,799
Speaker 1: the actions were more anonymous, they wouldn't have gone to jail.

820
00:45:42,760 --> 00:45:49,360
Speaker 1: It's okay. Most of Angry Arts Weeks action was less action.

821
00:45:50,080 --> 00:45:52,680
Speaker 1: About five hundred artists participated in total. They did a

822
00:45:52,719 --> 00:45:55,960
Speaker 1: bunch of poetry, readings, collective murals, film screenings, et cetera,

823
00:45:56,080 --> 00:45:58,480
Speaker 1: mostly at n y U, and there was some other

824
00:45:58,520 --> 00:46:00,680
Speaker 1: cool stuff they did. They drove around a latbed truck

825
00:46:00,800 --> 00:46:03,080
Speaker 1: with people doing performances on the back of it. On

826
00:46:03,160 --> 00:46:06,319
Speaker 1: the streets. They passed out leaflets and poetry. Um Bread

827
00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:08,480
Speaker 1: and Puppet did a performance that was kind of interesting.

828
00:46:08,520 --> 00:46:10,520
Speaker 1: They put on a play that was like a physician

829
00:46:10,680 --> 00:46:12,719
Speaker 1: lecturing in a med school about what napalm does to you,

830
00:46:13,320 --> 00:46:16,480
Speaker 1: and then just like descends. Actually, you know, I wrote

831
00:46:16,520 --> 00:46:18,160
Speaker 1: Brendon Puppet, but I actually think this was living theater,

832
00:46:18,239 --> 00:46:20,440
Speaker 1: but I'm not sure. I'm sorry. I know both of

833
00:46:20,480 --> 00:46:22,680
Speaker 1: you groups are still around because I know that living

834
00:46:22,719 --> 00:46:24,960
Speaker 1: theater was into theater of the theater of cruelty, where

835
00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:26,360
Speaker 1: you're kind of like kind of mean to your audience,

836
00:46:26,440 --> 00:46:28,279
Speaker 1: and this is very much a mean to your audience thing.

837
00:46:28,640 --> 00:46:31,920
Speaker 1: It starts off. This play is cool in retrospect, it

838
00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:33,840
Speaker 1: would suck to go to. It's a physician lecturing in

839
00:46:33,880 --> 00:46:35,600
Speaker 1: a med school class on what napalm does to you,

840
00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:38,000
Speaker 1: and then turns into him going on a tirade for

841
00:46:38,120 --> 00:46:40,840
Speaker 1: hours about all the statistics about how fucked up the

842
00:46:40,920 --> 00:46:44,680
Speaker 1: war is. I wouldn't want to go to that play.

843
00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:47,919
Speaker 1: I'm glad they did it. I'm glad someone else said

844
00:46:48,080 --> 00:46:52,759
Speaker 1: through it so and an Angry Arts Week it you

845
00:46:52,880 --> 00:46:57,200
Speaker 1: were shocked to notice? Yeah, it didn't actually stop the war? Yeah?

846
00:46:58,120 --> 00:47:02,400
Speaker 1: No way? Wow you think I think it's was it

847
00:47:02,520 --> 00:47:04,759
Speaker 1: Kurt Vonnegut who had the whole lion about how like

848
00:47:04,840 --> 00:47:07,279
Speaker 1: the entire arts world like through which Way to gets

849
00:47:07,280 --> 00:47:09,359
Speaker 1: the Vietnab war to had the effect of a pie

850
00:47:09,480 --> 00:47:14,239
Speaker 1: drop three ft on a ladder. That sounds like something

851
00:47:14,280 --> 00:47:17,279
Speaker 1: Vonnegan would say. Yeah. So, a group of artists wanted

852
00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:20,400
Speaker 1: to keep going after Angry Arts Week was over, and

853
00:47:20,480 --> 00:47:23,680
Speaker 1: they tend these are the wolks attended towards the spicy

854
00:47:24,160 --> 00:47:28,000
Speaker 1: side of things, and Black Mask was like, well, if

855
00:47:28,040 --> 00:47:32,360
Speaker 1: you like spicy and we like spicy, let's do something spicy.

856
00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:38,759
Speaker 1: And that's who we'll all hear about on Wednesday. In

857
00:47:38,880 --> 00:47:44,240
Speaker 1: the meantime, Stay cool everyone, Thanks, that's my name's tagline.

858
00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:45,440
Speaker 1: I hope you like it. It's not going to be

859
00:47:45,560 --> 00:47:51,200
Speaker 1: my tee cool everyone. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry.

860
00:47:53,320 --> 00:47:56,120
Speaker 1: I'm so sorry. Okay, great, I think we should Okay,

861
00:47:56,320 --> 00:47:57,800
Speaker 1: I think I think we should put it on pause

862
00:47:57,840 --> 00:47:59,400
Speaker 1: and and bring it back in the summer because it

863
00:47:59,520 --> 00:48:02,480
Speaker 1: is so cold right now, because you live in a

864
00:48:02,960 --> 00:48:07,439
Speaker 1: terrible place. That's true, it's it's a real disaster. Well

865
00:48:09,600 --> 00:48:14,840
Speaker 1: that's black mask. Any any any thoughts on these Mary

866
00:48:14,920 --> 00:48:17,000
Speaker 1: pranksters who aren't the Mary Prankster has actually gotten a

867
00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:19,600
Speaker 1: lot of fights the Mary pranksters. What if our line

868
00:48:19,760 --> 00:48:25,640
Speaker 1: was that's it, chill out, chill out people that chill stuff.

869
00:48:26,200 --> 00:48:30,359
Speaker 1: We're I'd say, we're open to suggestions, but we're not. Yeah, yeah,

870
00:48:30,600 --> 00:48:34,320
Speaker 1: there's a closed dear listener, don't don't send any suggestions.

871
00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:37,560
Speaker 1: I don't know why I said that. It's just terrible.

872
00:48:37,840 --> 00:48:42,000
Speaker 1: So anyway, m either thoughts or things that you want

873
00:48:42,040 --> 00:48:44,840
Speaker 1: to tell the world, you know, I guess I saw this.

874
00:48:45,040 --> 00:48:47,279
Speaker 1: I think it's it's really easy to be very hard

875
00:48:47,400 --> 00:48:49,080
Speaker 1: on the people who tried to stop the Fetnomb war.

876
00:48:49,120 --> 00:48:52,080
Speaker 1: It didn't sop the Fetnomb war. But I don't know.

877
00:48:52,200 --> 00:48:57,319
Speaker 1: I like, I think it's worth understanding that anti war

878
00:48:57,360 --> 00:49:02,799
Speaker 1: movements very very rarely work, and that people tried. Yeah,

879
00:49:02,920 --> 00:49:06,080
Speaker 1: like you know, like the rain, like a lot of

880
00:49:06,239 --> 00:49:08,160
Speaker 1: the art stuff sounds really silly and it's like, well,

881
00:49:08,280 --> 00:49:10,320
Speaker 1: how is it ever gonna work? But people tried a

882
00:49:10,440 --> 00:49:13,560
Speaker 1: lot of stuff, like they tried bomb like, they tried marches,

883
00:49:13,600 --> 00:49:15,640
Speaker 1: they tried bombings, they tried regular politicis just none of

884
00:49:15,719 --> 00:49:20,080
Speaker 1: it worked. And I think that's I don't know, I

885
00:49:20,520 --> 00:49:22,440
Speaker 1: I think that's something that it makes it easier to

886
00:49:22,520 --> 00:49:25,040
Speaker 1: sit back and judge as opposed to like I don't know,

887
00:49:25,120 --> 00:49:27,919
Speaker 1: like dude, Like I don't know what people people listening

888
00:49:27,920 --> 00:49:31,279
Speaker 1: to this are probably old enough to remember, Like you know,

889
00:49:31,320 --> 00:49:33,000
Speaker 1: there's sort of like the the second half of the

890
00:49:33,040 --> 00:49:36,440
Speaker 1: anti war movement where just it's just nothing like it

891
00:49:36,680 --> 00:49:38,880
Speaker 1: against the rocks, like nothing nothing stopped it, right, like

892
00:49:39,000 --> 00:49:41,400
Speaker 1: people people tried a lot of stuff and just nothing worked.

893
00:49:41,560 --> 00:49:45,839
Speaker 1: And yeah we shut down the city of Portland and anything. Yeah,

894
00:49:45,920 --> 00:49:48,239
Speaker 1: and it just didn't. Yeah, It's it's like on one

895
00:49:48,320 --> 00:49:50,239
Speaker 1: once the sort of war machine is got going, it's

896
00:49:51,200 --> 00:49:56,040
Speaker 1: really really like impossibly difficult to stop. And I don't know,

897
00:49:56,160 --> 00:49:58,600
Speaker 1: I think like people should be slightly less dejugmental about that,

898
00:49:58,840 --> 00:50:01,480
Speaker 1: especially given I mean, I don't know, maybe maybe maybe

899
00:50:01,520 --> 00:50:03,200
Speaker 1: there were people who listening to the show who weren't

900
00:50:03,239 --> 00:50:05,680
Speaker 1: alive due to rock Like I guess I guess that's

901
00:50:05,719 --> 00:50:10,160
Speaker 1: technically possible now, But yeah, I don't know, like we

902
00:50:10,400 --> 00:50:13,719
Speaker 1: we we all also failed to stop our awards. So no,

903
00:50:13,880 --> 00:50:15,520
Speaker 1: that's such a good point. And I think one of

904
00:50:15,560 --> 00:50:19,000
Speaker 1: the reasons I'm like art doesn't do anything is because

905
00:50:19,040 --> 00:50:21,520
Speaker 1: I'm coming at this as an artist, and so I'm

906
00:50:21,600 --> 00:50:26,120
Speaker 1: like self negating about like the efficacy of the kind

907
00:50:26,200 --> 00:50:28,040
Speaker 1: of thing that I would most immediately be drawn to,

908
00:50:28,239 --> 00:50:30,840
Speaker 1: and instead I'm like, all that matters is and it's like, no,

909
00:50:31,000 --> 00:50:35,920
Speaker 1: it probably changing. Trying to change the cultural consensus was

910
00:50:36,000 --> 00:50:38,600
Speaker 1: a very valid thing that they were trying to do

911
00:50:38,800 --> 00:50:40,279
Speaker 1: and had a lot of success with it took a

912
00:50:40,360 --> 00:50:45,360
Speaker 1: long time, the inertia of changing because most of the

913
00:50:45,440 --> 00:50:48,279
Speaker 1: US think it was like split eight um. I think

914
00:50:48,880 --> 00:50:51,680
Speaker 1: of America was like, yeah, funk them up, get the commies,

915
00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:56,480
Speaker 1: you know, and was like mm, we'd rather you didn't,

916
00:50:56,920 --> 00:51:01,920
Speaker 1: you know. And so trying to change that matters, and

917
00:51:02,040 --> 00:51:04,719
Speaker 1: I that's true. I need to. I need to. And

918
00:51:05,200 --> 00:51:07,920
Speaker 1: I think I think it's also because if if you

919
00:51:07,960 --> 00:51:10,160
Speaker 1: look at the things that actually ended the Vietnam War, right,

920
00:51:10,239 --> 00:51:12,000
Speaker 1: there's a lot of sort of political movement going on,

921
00:51:12,080 --> 00:51:13,880
Speaker 1: and then then then there's the sort of mass revolt

922
00:51:13,920 --> 00:51:16,160
Speaker 1: inside of the American army. And I don't think the

923
00:51:16,200 --> 00:51:18,600
Speaker 1: master in the American Army. Yeah, but like I like,

924
00:51:18,760 --> 00:51:21,799
Speaker 1: like I don't think that happens without people doing this ship,

925
00:51:22,840 --> 00:51:24,840
Speaker 1: you know, because I mean like like like people like

926
00:51:24,920 --> 00:51:28,440
Speaker 1: people who are in these things get drafted and you know,

927
00:51:28,920 --> 00:51:31,319
Speaker 1: like it's it's it's a really slow process. It would

928
00:51:31,360 --> 00:51:32,879
Speaker 1: have been a lot better if it had worked faster.

929
00:51:33,840 --> 00:51:39,319
Speaker 1: But I think I think people sort of like people

930
00:51:39,560 --> 00:51:42,160
Speaker 1: jump from Okay, here's all this in effective stuff and

931
00:51:42,200 --> 00:51:45,120
Speaker 1: then they sort of like take this leap into oh hey,

932
00:51:45,200 --> 00:51:46,719
Speaker 1: there was the sort of master resistance. They have one

933
00:51:46,800 --> 00:51:49,480
Speaker 1: killing their officers in Vietnam, And you have to look

934
00:51:49,520 --> 00:51:52,440
Speaker 1: at like the through course of how that actually happened

935
00:51:52,880 --> 00:51:54,640
Speaker 1: and how we got to that point, and that wasn't

936
00:51:54,840 --> 00:51:56,440
Speaker 1: and that was something that that was you know, an

937
00:51:56,440 --> 00:51:58,920
Speaker 1: active political quatch. It wasn't just that people want to

938
00:51:59,000 --> 00:52:01,399
Speaker 1: Vietnam war, like oh my god, this ward. It turns

939
00:52:01,400 --> 00:52:03,800
Speaker 1: out finding a ward is bad. Like there was you know,

940
00:52:03,920 --> 00:52:07,000
Speaker 1: there was sort of decades of like active political struggle

941
00:52:07,920 --> 00:52:10,560
Speaker 1: in like outside of the military, but also affecting the

942
00:52:10,600 --> 00:52:12,200
Speaker 1: people who are getting put in. And I think I

943
00:52:12,239 --> 00:52:13,960
Speaker 1: don't know, like I think I think that matters, and

944
00:52:14,000 --> 00:52:18,120
Speaker 1: I think it's you know, there's there's this bow quote

945
00:52:18,760 --> 00:52:21,480
Speaker 1: that I think is real that I've seen because you know,

946
00:52:21,560 --> 00:52:24,080
Speaker 1: so some someone asked him in like I think someone

947
00:52:24,080 --> 00:52:27,240
Speaker 1: asked him like seventy like like it was the Chinese

948
00:52:27,280 --> 00:52:29,839
Speaker 1: Revolution successful? And he was like, we'll know in fifty years,

949
00:52:31,000 --> 00:52:33,840
Speaker 1: and yeah, it's it's it's it's you know. On the

950
00:52:33,880 --> 00:52:35,520
Speaker 1: one hand, like yeah, like there there is with with

951
00:52:35,600 --> 00:52:37,440
Speaker 1: all movements, there is this incredible urgency that you have

952
00:52:37,520 --> 00:52:38,799
Speaker 1: to deal with. But then you also have to deal

953
00:52:38,840 --> 00:52:41,319
Speaker 1: with the fact that you know, the stuff that you're

954
00:52:41,400 --> 00:52:44,480
Speaker 1: doing might be incredibly successful. It might be incredibly successful

955
00:52:44,719 --> 00:52:48,000
Speaker 1: like fifteen years down the line, and it's it's really

956
00:52:48,080 --> 00:52:50,160
Speaker 1: hard both in the moment and tracing it back to

957
00:52:50,200 --> 00:52:53,160
Speaker 1: actually see that. No, that that makes a lot of sense.

958
00:52:53,239 --> 00:52:54,759
Speaker 1: And actually some of the stuff that we're going to

959
00:52:54,840 --> 00:52:59,120
Speaker 1: talk about on Wednesday, UM is going to talk about

960
00:52:59,160 --> 00:53:02,080
Speaker 1: some of the stuff that they really did accomplish, like

961
00:53:02,400 --> 00:53:04,359
Speaker 1: some of the stuff that they feel like that they're like, hey,

962
00:53:04,440 --> 00:53:08,719
Speaker 1: this this worked. Not everything they did worked, Uma, but

963
00:53:08,880 --> 00:53:14,200
Speaker 1: some of what they did worked and things are about

964
00:53:14,200 --> 00:53:17,520
Speaker 1: to get spicier. That can't be that. No, we can't

965
00:53:17,600 --> 00:53:21,399
Speaker 1: use that one, um no, no, no, no, I got it. Yeah, stay,

966
00:53:21,520 --> 00:53:25,040
Speaker 1: I stay, I see everyone. Yeah. Yeah, and then you

967
00:53:25,080 --> 00:53:26,880
Speaker 1: gotta do a little hand gester. You all got to

968
00:53:26,920 --> 00:53:29,040
Speaker 1: make up with and at home you just have to

969
00:53:29,080 --> 00:53:31,440
Speaker 1: figure it out on your own. Yeah, you won't know

970
00:53:31,480 --> 00:53:34,239
Speaker 1: what I did. Yeah. Everyone can do what they want

971
00:53:34,640 --> 00:53:38,279
Speaker 1: with their hand gestures as long as they're not a scene.

972
00:53:38,320 --> 00:53:43,320
Speaker 1: I guess. Yeah. I was gonna say, uh, playing with

973
00:53:43,400 --> 00:53:47,000
Speaker 1: fire here, all right, we will see Wait, no, tell

974
00:53:47,120 --> 00:53:51,080
Speaker 1: tell us what you do? Yeah, oh yeah, I am

975
00:53:51,200 --> 00:53:53,359
Speaker 1: one of the hosts of it could happen here. What's

976
00:53:53,400 --> 00:53:56,600
Speaker 1: that about. It's it's a podcast about things following apart

977
00:53:56,640 --> 00:54:01,480
Speaker 1: and putting them back together again. Okay, that sounds exciting. Yeah.

978
00:54:01,520 --> 00:54:03,560
Speaker 1: You can find it in the places you find podcasts

979
00:54:03,760 --> 00:54:08,239
Speaker 1: every single day of the week except for the weekends. Um. Yeah.

980
00:54:08,280 --> 00:54:10,800
Speaker 1: You can also find me at Twitter at a c

981
00:54:10,960 --> 00:54:13,040
Speaker 1: HR three. I need to change that at some point

982
00:54:13,080 --> 00:54:16,440
Speaker 1: because it's it's it's it's it me. Yeah, but that

983
00:54:16,640 --> 00:54:18,520
Speaker 1: that will happen later on the line. So right now,

984
00:54:18,880 --> 00:54:21,120
Speaker 1: it's a c h R three, or if you just

985
00:54:21,160 --> 00:54:25,520
Speaker 1: search it since be destroyed, you'll find it. Why do

986
00:54:25,640 --> 00:54:27,879
Speaker 1: you have against I never mind, I don't know why.

987
00:54:27,880 --> 00:54:30,760
Speaker 1: I am all right, I'll talk to you all Wednesday,

988
00:54:31,160 --> 00:54:38,520
Speaker 1: See you Wednesday by everyone cool People Who Did Cool

989
00:54:38,560 --> 00:54:41,319
Speaker 1: Stuff is a production of cool Zone Media. For more

990
00:54:41,400 --> 00:54:44,439
Speaker 1: podcasts and cool Zone Media, visit our website cool zone

991
00:54:44,440 --> 00:54:46,800
Speaker 1: media dot com or check us out on the I

992
00:54:46,920 --> 00:54:50,480
Speaker 1: Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.